career-advice

[brittle thorn]

It will modify its own source and self improve lmao

[ivory sluice]

report from levels.fyi. have you guys felt or noticed a shift? https://www.levels.fyi/2022/ (article numbers are US-based)

you sound annoyed or something, not sure why

[summer roost]

is that base salary, or are bonuses included? If that includes RSU's, the entirety of the difference could be explained by layoffs and lower stock prices at big tech companies.

[ivory sluice]

median total comp including salary, stock and bonuses

oh looks like they do have some non-US data towards the bottom of anyone's interested

[spark cobalt]

Hmm that stats can mean a lot of things lol. Like more people entering the industry than leaving in 2022 could cause that. Or the junior market being extremely competitive made junior devs more complacent with their pay.

But that wouldn't explain SWE Manager. That's a huge drop

Maybe if there was data including years of experience.

[delicate bane]

looks like there is a significant increase in remote work for 2022

[delicate bane]

also tel aviv highest asian city lol

[brittle thorn]

Could be people took pay cut to remote work in low cost areas

Not too bad an arrangement especially if in Third World

[delicate bane]

if you want to be a quant, then no one is stopping you

[spark cobalt]

2021 report doesn't have remote trend on it 😦

[delicate bane]

i-

[brittle thorn]

Israel is techy and great may explain that

[spark cobalt]

He's trolling. This is a run-on joke for like the last month.

Do OF if you want good money.

[delicate bane]

all i know about israel is their military service is mandatory and that many peeps leave afterwards with a good foundation in various fields of tech: software, cybersecurity, AI, etc.

some peeps go onto create some startups too

[spark cobalt]

Roblox paying 1.2m a year for principal engineer

[brittle thorn]

They got to ...surrounded by hostile neighbors

[ivory sluice]

@modern ore post higher quality posts here please

[spark cobalt]

Oh all of it was stocks

[ivory sluice]

!mute 877499029691461683 2d read our code of conduct, sexism doesn't fly here

[brittle thorn]

Yes that's a great thing

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @modern ore until <t:1673060486:f> (2 days).

[delicate bane]

ahhhh that makes sense

[spark cobalt]

Yeah 830k of it.

[delicate bane]

yeah i only know bc they come and speak on podcasts lol

[brittle thorn]

You could say the same of South Korea...why not mandatory military service for all

[delicate bane]

doesnt seem south korea invests in software/tech as much

[brittle thorn]

It gives people discipline and skills

[brittle thorn]

They got Samsung lmao

[delicate bane]

no like, in the israel military service, youre allowed to learn software, etc.

[brittle thorn]

Ah yeah that...but still these countries are punching above their weight class

[spark cobalt]

Dependent country boooooooooo L Korea

[ivory sluice]

??

[spark cobalt]

I wonder what's the trends for just the junior dev market in general

All we got were pretty believable speculation, but no data

[brittle thorn]

Koreans thou got Asian tiger parents no need

[delicate bane]

hmm? junior dev market probably has a decent amount of noise to signal ratio

also lots of germany, canada, and oz locations

in the report

[brittle thorn]

If you got passive income that maybe ok

[brittle thorn]

South Korean internet speeds really fast and they got really good e sports peeps

The future war maybe like e sports with drones and a single commander commanding a drone swarm in a starcraft like interface

South Korea will win that

[dreamy spade]

Because you are trying to launch your career , trying make money to better your life.

[inner wren]

Hey @amber anvil!

You either uploaded a .txt file or entered a message that was too long. Please use our paste bin instead.

[spark cobalt]

American drones

[amber anvil]

what do you guys think of this prizing for my discord bot? is it worth it? should i increase or decrease the prize of something?
https://paste.pythondiscord.com/obesonosej

[brittle thorn]

Even our third world nation had weaponized robots...was part of a lab once that did such

[dreamy spade]

The only way to get inside the club is getting past through the bouncer. Bouncers dictate whether you are allowed inside or not. Hence, being a gatekeeper. The same concept applies for recruiters and hiring managers.

You need the credentials of what they are asking for in order to let you in + Having to defeat your other opponents who trying to get that number one spot. It's survival of the fittest; It's a battle arena and only one will come on top in order to get inside the club.

[summer roost]

so what makes you less fit?

[delicate bane]

the analogy falls apart when there are multiple clubs aka multiple companies so the dynamics of a two-sided marketplace are a bit different than the dynamics of something like hunger games lol

[dreamy spade]

I honestly don't know. Recruiters don't tell why they deny my application other than an automated LinkedIn or an Indeed email that the company didn't move forward with my application.

Before...I applied for jobs without graduating. I graduated, applied for jobs and still get denied. I'm giving what these companies are asking for. Most want candidates who are graduates. So it's frustrating.

[delicate bane]

no internships? what about a portfolio? how many have you applied to so far? how many interviews have you gotten?

[dreamy spade]

I mean thousands of people are applying that have more experience,

Yeah and that's including these candidates with senior experience and bachelor's degree. It's like nobody wants to give the new guy a shot.

and etc. specially with internships. How many OAs have you done?? Just curious

I applied for an internship. I got an interview but I didn't pass it. I don't know what a OA is.

[summer roost]

Clearly you know that's not appropriate

[dreamy spade]

How can I get skills when if I don't get an entry-level position to get skills?

[summer roost]

How are other people that you graduated with doing at landing jobs?

[brave bridge]

what are those numbers for?

[dreamy spade]

I took my course virtually so I don't know how the majority are doing. One classmate told me that he had a cybersecurity internship lined up and the other is as frustrated as me.

[brave bridge]

are those yearly salarys 💀 ??????????????

[dreamy spade]

I was interviewed by a Recruitment Specialist. It didn't sound like they had technical expertise in programming. One of their technical questions was "What is your favourite programming language and why?"

[delicate bane]

i will tell you now i sent hundreds of apps before landing an internship. it luckily led to my current role since i got converted from intern to full-time.

[dreamy spade]

They required to me to write a candidate quiz that was built like an IQ test after the interview.

[brave bridge]

maybe they used the quiz and got low IQ results and declined you because of that.
\s
how long did you have time to do it?

[summer roost]

I've asked people that as an interviewer. Actually, I love asking someone what their two best languages are, and then asking them to talk about how the two languages are similar, and how they're different.

[dreamy spade]

45 minutes.

"What's the difference between Typescript and Javascript?"
"What is functional programming?"
"What did you do to overcome a difficult situation that was stressful?"
"Where do you see yourself 5 years into the future?"
"Do you have any questions for me?" last question of the interview

[brave bridge]

TC?

[white relic]

For experienced engineers, in high CoL areas, it's likely. But a list of big numbers doesn't really mean much by itself

[dreamy spade]

I don't know about this. I even see positions where you need 5+ years of software development experience.

[ivory sluice]

this really isn't helpful, just spell it out

TC means total compensation

[dreamy spade]

Oh so then that was the candidate IQ quiz then

Oh you mean coding questions...

Yeah I did actually. That was last year.

[primal sable]

Hello. Do you guys know why I can't message on the help subchannels?

I had a question regarding arrays in C

[summer roost]

Well, sure, there are positions for people with all experience levels.

[summer roost]

C is off topic on this server, so you'd need to use an off topic channel

!off-topic

[inner wren]

Off-topic channels

There are three off-topic channels:
• #ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval
• #ot1-perplexing-regexing
• #ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare

The channel names change every night at midnight UTC and are often fun meta references to jokes or conversations that happened on the server.

See our off-topic etiquette page for more guidance on how the channels should be used.

[dreamy spade]

I thought you were saying if they give me any programming questions where I solve an algorithm or something.

Yeah so coding questions.

Probably not very good because they didn't email me back. It was their own questions on their website so it wasn't like they sent me a third-party link.

Lol I only got like 3 out 400+ jobs I applied for though.

btw somebody was talking about how fast food was there hardest job. There's no way that can be true if it's like pulling teeth to trying bust down the door to get inside the tech industry.

Ahh here it is.

Here as well.

No way in hell these are true if it's taking blood, sweat and tears into breaking inside tech.

I'm giving what these companies want. They want graduates? So I graduated for them.

I didn't graduate for me, I graduated for these companies.

[ivory sluice]

it's extremely easy to get a fast food job, that doesn't mean the work itself is easy lol

[dreamy spade]

I don't know what else they want from me. I have projects on GitHub , I leveled up on CodeWars and I got multiple badges in LinkedIn for programming languages.

[hollow vault]

coming in late. how many interviews have you had?

[dreamy spade]

Two. One by a human and another by an A.I.

[ivory sluice]

have you had your resume reviewed yet?

[dreamy spade]

Yes last year by a Careers Services advisor at my college.

[ivory sluice]

if you like you can post a redacted version here, personal information blacked out. a weak resume could explain the low rate of callbacks

[hollow vault]

yeah i feel like a problem is with getting your resume past. I have no cs degree and am self taught with the only relevant thing being personal projects on my resume. I am on the last stage of a couple interviews now.
granted ive been at it for a few months now

[summer roost]

what's your opinion on this question: if a new grad's only work experience is something like fast food, should they include that work experience on their resume when applying for entry level tech jobs, or not?

[ivory sluice]

i would include it

[summer roost]

cool. That's another vote in favor, continuing on a conversation from yesterday.

[hollow vault]

yeah it looks better than having nothing at all imo

[ivory sluice]

and amp up the value of my impact in serving people and conflict resolution

[hollow vault]

^

[ivory sluice]

it also demonstrates some basic things like: you can probably show up for work according to assigned schedules and follow instructions, decently get along with peers, managers, and customers. any retail job ticks these boxes

[summer roost]

This seems like a very good idea to me. @dreamy spade it seems quite likely that if you've gotten only a 1/200 success rate in advancing to the next stage after submitting your resume, that there's something about your resume that employers aren't liking.

[hollow vault]

I have had a few different resume iterations and they definitely make a difference

[dreamy spade]

All right. I'll do it.

[hollow vault]

it totally sucks and i hate doing things to my resume so much, but it is very important

i think what helped in my latest iteration is really pumping it with keywords. it feels wrong to me to layout my resume with so many keywords but i can't deny that it has helped

[vapid jay]

I will complete high school in 3 months. Which language should i learn if i would like to pursue my career in CS

[hollow vault]

what do you like about cs?

[summer roost]

What do you know so far? Are you planning to get a CS degree?

[vapid jay]

Yes, i am currently learning python

[dreamy spade]

My resume.

[vapid jay]

That's a lot of experience. What's your age?

[dreamy spade]

Turned 30 a few weeks ago.

No why?

[ivory sluice]

@modern ore cut it out with your rudeness, the skull emoji. either help or don't

[dreamy spade]

Well you can't say i'm trolling if you can't conclude the reasoning.

[ivory sluice]

@dreamy spade your resume is not very standard, and it's also not complete. is there more?

and you're a "graduate" but of what? from where?

[dreamy spade]

There's only one page. And why isn't it standard and how is it not complete?

[dreamy spade]

You said to post a redacted version

[ivory sluice]

https://www.cmu.edu/career/documents/sample-resumes-cover-letters/sample-resumes_scs.pdf

redacted as in cover personal info with a black box or something. what's all the white space on the top left?

[dreamy spade]

Computer Programming is the name of the program I graduated from.

[ivory sluice]

is this a university that provides a bachelors degree?

[dreamy spade]

That was the redacting

[hollow vault]

is it a university or a bootcamp/program?

[smoky quest]

Programming experience would be expected to be professional experience. It does not seem to be the case here.
Also long lists tend to just be skipped over. You would want to put them into context of projects

[hollow vault]

my resume certainly isnt the best but here is mine as an example format for someone without a cs degree

[spark cobalt]

@dreamy spade https://www.overleaf.com/latex/templates/jakes-resume/syzfjbzwjncs Here's a format to help you out.

[ivory sluice]

you missed one redact btw

[hollow vault]

haha damn i see it now whatever its fine

[spark cobalt]

The issue why you think recruiters are "gatekeeping" you from roles is because you only claim to know certain knowledge, while literally everyone else are showing their aptitude with certain technologies through prior experience or projects.

[dreamy spade]

College

[ivory sluice]

what's the degree you received upon graduating?

[spark cobalt]

Did you get an Associates? Bachelors? You should be mentioning exactly what kind of degree you have. Saying you graduated isn't enough.

[hollow vault]

yeah it was a template i made as a simple one. i like it though and it has been successful so far. will end up changing soon and updating with new experience

[smoky quest]

I also bet your reverse engineering project is giving you some attention too. It's not an easy task

[dreamy spade]

It's called Computer Programming Diploma.

[ivory sluice]

are you in the US?

[dreamy spade]

It's a two year program so Associates?

[spark cobalt]

I'm unsure how you don't know. But you need to ask someone in your school that can get that information for you.

[dreamy spade]

So I have to list projects not just the languages I know.

[spark cobalt]

Look at the example resumes sent.

[dreamy spade]

Associate's is an American term. I live in Canada.

[smoky quest]

show, don't tell

You don't tell people you are awesome at python. You have to show them how awesome you are at python because of the projects X, Y, and Z which had impacts A, B and C

[spark cobalt]

Sounds like you just got a certificate?

[dreamy spade]

Well that was what my GitHub was for but apparently recruiters can't be bothered to click links as well unfortunately...

[spark cobalt]

I'm sure you got some paper at the completion of your course. Did it say Associates/Bachelors of Art/Science in Computer Science/Programming?

[ivory sluice]

colleges in canada i think are not universities

[spark cobalt]

Recruiters aren't technical people. It's unreasonable to expect them to know how to review code, and to bother to review code to begin with.

[dreamy spade]

Convocation ceremony didn't even happen yet.

[smoky quest]

It's not their job to justify the need to talk to you. It's your job to justify that you are worth the time talking to.

The rule of thumb is that a first screening takes 30-45s. And as such, you have 30-45s to convince them to call you back and go deeper.

[spark cobalt]

Code reviews take a long time especially for fullfledged projects and they don't have that time for everyone.

As dozens have mentioned last night, you're advertising yourself to them. Would you do further digging into a company's website if their advertisement was lackluster?

First impressions matter a lot, and that's what your resume is.

[dreamy spade]

God..damn man.

[spark cobalt]

Their job is to hire. If they were capable of doing code reviews, they would probably be an engineer lol

You should look at the examples and see what your resume should look like.

I'm just shocked in general that your careers resource person at your college reviewed this and said this was okay.

[smoky quest]

Their job is to support the hiring manager, to provide the best candidate experience (ex: scheduling and back and forth), and sometimes avoid HR violations

[summer roost]

it's definitely not to read code, though. 🙂

[smoky quest]

Most of the reviews and heavy lifting is still done by the hiring manager

[spark cobalt]

Ah right

[dreamy spade]

I don't know man. It appears as though resume creations are so subjective sometimes.

[summer roost]

yeah, as we said yesterday: recruiters also generally aren't throwing out resumes.

[spark cobalt]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bkZxGOQ9eKhuY_vaRubwF-SM4blVtiyg4YKnl4kL6Rw/edit Here's a guide from some CS Careers server. Definitely want to follow this: I'm assuming you're the b section

[summer roost]

there is some level of subjective aesthetics to resumes, yes - but there are also objective metrics, things that everyone else's resume will have, things that will make your resume stand out in a bad way for not having.

[spark cobalt]

Well there's certain things that lead to success, and others that don't. It may be partially subjective, but it's not mostly subjective or entirely subjective.

[dreamy spade]

All right well at least I found out recruiters don't click links and they are not technical.

[spark cobalt]

It was mentioned multiple times last night.

[dreamy spade]

So writing what technical projects I have done on my resume are going to somehow impress a non-technical person?

[smoky quest]

No one will take the time to click on links on the first few passes.
It's also not their job to dig into your links/profiles to figure out if there is something good about you

[leaden jasper]

A recruiter or hiring manager shouldn't have to click additional links to find important information that should be in your resume. Treating it like recruiters/hiring managers are lazy is not going to help you.

Also if they print it, they're shit out of luck I guess?

[summer roost]

I gave a breakdown of what I'd expect to see in a fresh grad's resume yesterday - around 1/8th contact info, 1/4th education history, 1/8th skills, and the remaining 50% split between projects and prior work experience. Your skills section here takes up around 60% of the space of your resume, and you have no projects or prior work experience listed. I'm not sure how to say this more nicely: what you've shown here does not look like a resume.

[spark cobalt]

Upon the couple of resume examples already sent before that you can reference from, here's some other examples:

If you need more references of how to have actionable bullet points, whether that's vocabulary etc., Harvard has a good guide to making good resumes: https://hwpi.harvard.edu/files/ocs/files/hes-resume-cover-letter-guide.pdf

[ivory sluice]

^ those are good examples of good vs bad bullet points

[ivory sluice]

regardless of the technical knowledge of the person reading your resume, a few summaries of projects you've completed that demonstrate your capabilities and problem-solving are worth infinitely more than a list of technologies and a time duration in parenthesis

[spark cobalt]

And to reference back to something before, @dreamy spade if you don't know what recruiters or hiring managers are looking for, there's so many ways to communicate with them to get advice from them. Whether that's a Discord server like this one (there are other servers more dedicated to CS careers), or through LinkedIn, or through going to dev meetups, people are very happy to help, you just have to reach out to them first instead of alienating them right off the bat.

[lilac fractal]

Is it a necessity to have a project section on the resume when applying to software engineering? I have been working for three years as a software engineer but am starting to apply for a new position, but I don't really program outside of tutoring/work. The last time I had projects on my resume were upper division class projects when I was applying for internships/new grad roles

[spark cobalt]

Have been able to talk to PMs, Presidents (of companies), all sorts of people for hours on end discussing about how I should approach job hunting, for resume reviews, to get a better insight on exactly what people are looking for in a resume, or in an interview.

People are happy to help (for example, the people here.) You just have to reach out first (like sending your resume, which took a day to do.)

[dreamy spade]

All right. I'll revise it. I'll write the projects I completed. Recruiters don't even look at my GitHub, so they can't verify them anyway.

[summer roost]

no, it isn't. If you've got enough professional work experience, that work experience can stand on its own just fine. Personal projects are more useful for people with less professional experience.

[smoky quest]

It's fine to not have projects from home. But you should at the very least have professional experience and achievements you can describe

[lilac fractal]

@summer roost Got it, thanks. I was curious because I have been ghosted by most of the companies I applied to so far and only heard back from one

[spark cobalt]

They also can't verify your "years of experience" in tech either. Projects are more verifiable as in an interview they can ask that you demo it, or go more in depth (if you claim to build a project you never built, it becomes super apparent in an interview)

[leaden jasper]

This is from an engineering perspective, but I didn't have non-work projects on my resume after about 3-4 years of working. They were all work related or related to my master's degree that's in progress. Caveat being if you're trying to switch fields/specialties

[summer roost]

to that end, one of the reasons I hang out here is that I got a resume review and career advice from someone 10 years my senior back when I was a college senior, and it was a huge help in landing my first job. Paying it forward, and all.

[lilac fractal]

I only have work experience with their relevant projects on there

[smoky quest]

don't lie because it's very easy to catch.
Interviewers might still look at your projects at later stages

[summer roost]

ooh, good point about switching.

[spark cobalt]

At least in my experience, projects came up quite often for interviews (since I was applying for my first tech job.) If it's something you're passionate about, being able to make it conversational, talk about higher level design paradigms or other things you decided to do makes an interview very fun!

Just know that developers don't want to be at an interview at all. The last thing they want to hear about a project was "I built a COVID case tracker" and that be the end of it.

[summer roost]

I wouldn't say that they don't want to be there at all - I prefer to say that it's probably not their favorite part of their job.

[delicate bane]

bruh. the epidemiologists are silently crying.

[spark cobalt]

Dude the amount of resumes with COVID shit on it or the 30000th Spotify clone

[summer roost]

they most likely don't hate interviewing - if they did, they likely could get out of doing it. But it's not what they were hired for, and it's probably not the part of their job that they enjoy the most. Helping to grow their team, find new people to bring on, and mentor junior developers has just become part of their job duties.

[spark cobalt]

How do those with more experience feel about the clones? I feel like the more I see, the more I feel they're just copied off of someone else's project?

Like I get that a Spotify clone is technically impressive, but with the 30 million guides on how to do it online, it kind of feels to me like a scapegoat project, where you could've always just referenced something if you were struggling

[delicate bane]

the amount of rants ive heard from epi peeps on how poorly some of those tracker apps were made, especially when validation of stuff like that is their forte...

[summer roost]

I think projects are generally a fairly weak signal about someone's skill, because you don't know how much help they had. To the extent that I look at projects at all when reviewing a resume, I'm more interested in things like whether they've set up a license and a README, whether they've got CI, whether they've got good commit hygeine, etc

[spark cobalt]

Ah so you look at developer maturity rather than the project itself? I see

[sleek pendant]

All of my commits are internal to my company 😦

[leaden jasper]

Interviewing can also be draining for the interviewer depending on how it's structured. It can be a several hour affair broken up throughout the entire day. God forbid it's a culture or personality mismatch too.

[summer roost]

that's fine. Like I said above, projects are most relevant for the people with the least professional experience.

[spark cobalt]

, they all probably copied from the same guy. It's insane how like 50 different Youtube tutorials are all just copying like 2 different repos for how to make a Spotify clone or something.

[smoky quest]

It's not about the commits. It's about how you went about validating the requirements, mentoring the junior engineer working on it, the problems encountered, the unforeseen problems, the migration from the old system, how you coordinated with other teams, which (design/architectural) patterns you used, how you ensured quality, etc.

[summer roost]

right - if they've got projects that show seriously bad judgment (malware or something) it'd concern me. If they've got a technically impressive project whose commit history shows it was completed in three 5000 line commits over a single afternoon, that'd concern me (and make me suspect they basically just copied it). But if I see good commit messages, or I see a disciplined approach to repo maintenance, or a regular time window that they set aside for hacking on the project, those are all positive signals.

[spark cobalt]

Gotcha. Thanks!

[smoky quest]

the people doing the copy/pasting thing are unable to talk about why they did what they did and how it helps them and how to take it further or deal with unseen scenario

[spark cobalt]

Yep

[sleek pendant]

I always get frustrated with my interviews because I don't keep little things in my memory well (which reflect poorly in coding interviews). No I can't remember off the top of my head how to make a decorator function but I assure you getting this product across the finish line and stable in production is more dependent on me implementing unit tests and mutation tests in a CI/CD pipeline and keeping the new guy occupied with stories that help him learn but not do anything mission critical.

[leaden jasper]

Not quite from a software dev perspective, but I can't legally talk about some of my previous work. Companies are usually understanding and as long as I can talk about the broader stuff or the non-NDA violating specifics, they're fine with it.

[sleek pendant]

Not to mention understanding infrastructure with public cloud vs on prem when that often is taken care of you.

[sleek pendant]

Intersting perspective here because at first I found it hard to talk about previous things. But now I feel like I'm better at abstracting away business critical information and just talking about the problem I had to solve. i.e. "yeah mutmut was running slow in the pipeline, so I made a docker image with git which allowed me to run cosmic-ray in parallel which sped up my CI/CD job time by 80%"

[summer roost]

there's not a lot on a resume or a github account that will really count against you in terms of getting you hired. Outside of things that show seriously poor judgment or attention to detail or willingness to exert effort, at least. There's many more things that count for you than against you, but the degree to which they count for you is different. Work experience is more positive than projects. Projects that look like you put disciplined effort into them are more positive than projects that look thrown together in a day and never touched again. Projects that are more technically interesting are more positive than ones that are less technically interesting. Projects that use technologies more similar to what the position calls for are more positive than ones that don't. Etc.

[sleek pendant]

100% I wouldn't remember something clever like this in an interview and instead be like 'yeah I've deployed a lambda before on aws' lol

[leaden jasper]

Interesting technical projects certainly pique people's interest. I had 2 work projects that I think really set me apart when floating my resume around. It wasn't even that interesting day-to-day, but the overall thing and result was.

[summer roost]

Or to put that another way, it's gonna be pretty rare for someone to read your resume or your github and say "I would not hire this person". It's much more common for someone to say "I would prefer these 10 other people over this person"

[leaden jasper]

Honestly, I have a small collection of these little stories and anecdotes prepped and ready ahead of time. I figure out which 2-3 projects I want to focus on in the interview and I will literally find out and prep some of memorable stories and stats ahead of time.

[summer roost]

that's a great interview tip in general.

and it really speaks to how big of a difference preparing for and practicing at interviews themselves makes.

[leaden jasper]

For me, interviewing is partially about what story about myself and my work I want to tell. I find it easier when I treat it like networking at a work christmas party. I obviously want to look good, but it's still a conversation.

So do the work and figure out some of the story/conversation beats ahead of time. It helps a looot with nerves too

[summer roost]

interviewing is a skill, and you can get better at it with practice.

[dreamy spade]

This is a post that got me to believe that recruiters look at applicant's GitHub.

I spent so much time trying to add projects on my GitHub...

[leaden jasper]

To be a bit blunt, you need to make it past the first stage or two before they might look at your GH. Your resume is not getting you past the first stage.

[ivory sluice]

the time you spent adding projects to github is not time wasted. but it's not the entry point for readers of your resume, and your resume as it currently stands leaves no desire to explore your candidacy further

so you have projects on your github, can you talk about them and what they accomplished? also whatever challenges you encountered and how you addressed them. i'd start with that, just free form brain dump. you can then pick highlights to put on the resume

[dreamy spade]

All right got it. I appreciate the consulting. I'm eager to seek revenge on the competition.

[ivory sluice]

okay, i suggest you reframe your vision to just showing potential employers what value* you bring to the table. i imagine the mentality and energy you currently exude during interviews might be a turn off

*for an entry level position, i think the value is in your willingness to learn, since self-perceived knowledge probably trends high for juniors

[summer roost]

@dreamy spade one thing that might help you is an understanding of what the hiring process looks like. It's usually something roughly like:

1. You submit a resume to a company
2. Information from your resume is scraped into a database (often in an automated or semi-automated fashion)
3. Hiring managers are notified of new applicants, and set aside some time every day or every week to review new applications
4. If a hiring manager thinks the resume shows you might be a good fit, they'll ask the recruiter to schedule a conversation with you
5. The recruiter will talk about the position a bit, and if you're interested, will set up time for a skills assessment.
6. If you pass the skills assessment, the recruiter will reach back out to schedule an interview.
7. If the interview goes well enough, the hiring manager asks the recruiter/HR to make you an offer.

These steps might vary a little bit depending on the company - you might have an automated online skill assessment before talking to a recruiter rather than a zoom call where an engineer assesses your skills after the first time a recruiter reaches out to you, for instance. But the basic steps are something like that.

it seems like as things stand today, you're not making it past step 4. Which means something is going wrong in step 2 or 4 for you - either the ATS does a poor job of scraping information from your resume into a database and humans don't bother trying to clean it up because they've got enough other applicants, or the hiring manager is seeing your resume and not deciding to move forward with you as a candidate.

[ivory sluice]

also how tough is it to get a job in the canadian market with a college diploma? bearing in mind that college diploma != university degree in canada

are you applying to internships?

[dreamy spade]

I wouldn't know.

[dreamy spade]

Yes. I applied for many. I got an interview for one by a human and another one by an A.I. I didn't get past the first stage of the interview.

[summer roost]

weirdly, we don't have many Canadian regulars in this channel that I know of... I'm not sure how to help get an answer to that question. You might want to see if you can find a community of Canadian techies who can help give you an idea of how valuable your diploma is relative to a degree.

[ivory sluice]

okay, so like summer internships?

[dreamy spade]

I got an interview two months ago and the internship was starting this month.

The opportunity slipped at the tip of my fingers. I wanted it the internship to line up for me in January so bad. It was excellent timing because the expected date for me to graduate was December 2022 at the time. Very unfortunate.

[ivory sluice]

mk, so like godly said i'd try and do some networking either online or offline with other canadians, and revamp your resume. once the resume is improved you should get more invites to interviews

as you network with people i'd also try and get a feel for the diploma vs degree thing. have you not thought of going to uni before?

[dreamy spade]

Nah dude. I'm not spending four years of my life to go to university.

It shouldn't take four years to learn Computer Science

[ivory sluice]

okay, well you have actionable steps to take for now. your resume needs a lot of improvement

[summer roost]

The students who spent 4 years learning computer science likely did learn more than you learned in 2 years. It's very unlikely that your program moved at twice the pace of theirs, and much more likely that they learned things that you did not, which leaves you at a disadvantage when it comes to getting a job - especially your first industry job after college.

[dreamy spade]

Yeah...well I'd rather try to penetrate inside the tech field with a 2-year diploma than a 4-year degree. I felt like I was close for a moment. The opportunity slipped like I had butter fingers. I'll get a firmer grip on the ball. As soon as I get inside, the year 4 degree shouldn't matter. As I read earlier somewhere "Work experience is King."

[summer roost]

I'm not trying to convince you to go for the degree, just pointing out that "It shouldn't take four years to learn Computer Science" is a bad attitude that will leave you underestimating the amount of computer science that degree holders learned and that you didn't.

[gusty dome]

what things should i be doing in highschool

also how much does the university u came from matter

[spark cobalt]

After you get on some experience, really it doesn't matter. Level of education might, but I haven't ever heard someone talk about where they came from, moreso what level of education they have.

[summer roost]

getting good grades, and figuring out what hobbies you enjoy and don't, playing around, broadening your horizons, and engaging with your community.

[gusty dome]

yeah but what about the things i can do to help me get a job after a graduate from uni

[summer roost]

those are all things that you can do in high school that will help you get a job after you graduate from uni

[gusty dome]

like do i need to do internships

[summer roost]

in high school, nah. Internships are something that tend to only be available to uni students.

Probably 99 out of every 100 internships go to uni students.

[gusty dome]

ok

so really right now my main goal should be getting into a good uni, and i can worry about getting a job later

do people hiring care about what u were doing in hs? or is that mostly for colleges

[smoky quest]

Try to think in terms of timelines.
Once you are done in college, you will be something like 5 years older than now. As an analogy, try to think back about yourself from 5 years ago. The projects or knowledge and skills you had back then is ridiculous comparing to the you from today. It will be the same thing by the time you graduate college. By then, whatever "internship" or project you do today will be superseded by what you will accomplish in the future.
That said, it does not mean you shouldn't start now. Have fun and build things! It will give you a head start, build some knowledge and skills and help you discover what you like and dislike

[gusty dome]

okay that makes sense, thanks

[true harness]

honestly, i would be pretty mad at this career person

[vapid jay]

hey guys, i want to start freelancing, and i don't have a degree, can someone give me some tips on where should i start, how i start, and how much should i charge, you know these basic things...

also how much of experience do i need?

and what can i use python programming at? if there's js, html, css for webs, c++ for games, what would python be good at?

[white relic]

At the risk of stating the obvious, there's no market shortage of people without degrees who want programming jobs. Whether you freelance or work for someone else, the question you need to answer is: why will someone hire you over the next person?

[flat valley]

Because they haven't interviewed the next person yet

[white relic]

You don't have a degree, so education is out. The other two big ones are experience and connections

you can advertise your experience with some completed projects, and you can make connections by going to conferences and meetups and leveraging your existing network to meet new people

freelancing is hard if you have to build a book of business from scratch. There's a reason why the conventional path is to get a degree and then go to work for a company. Making your own way is tough.

The people I know who have made it as independent contractors went that way after a successful career working a conventional job. Admittedly, none of them are software engineers.

[craggy summit]

how do i get income using python

i heard that coding is a good career

[near ocean]

You go to university for CS, you do internships, you graduate, you apply to jobs, you pass interviews, you get hired

[craggy summit]

i believe that would work, i will be going to my first uni this year

[gritty rivet]

Look on freelance platforms like Upwork and see for yourself. Mostly web scraping, data manipulation, and some web backend stuff

[vestal kettle]

Got rejected again. Sent CV and the feedback is "Applicants have greater success when their experience strongly matches our job requirements. Cover letters help us connect the dots between your experience and the job you want.".
Not sure if it is a canned reply or not.
I guess they are just saying I am totally unfit for them?

[white relic]

sounds like a can to me

[gritty rivet]

Did you include a cover letter? If not it looks like they are saying they can't be bothered to read your resume without one.

Aside from that, it's useless non-feedback, just move on and keep applying.

customs vary by country but for most engineering jobs here in the US, cover letters don't seem to be much of a thing in my experience

[vestal kettle]

I wrote mine. I am in the UK. I have a feeling that my CV will go to the bin directly if I don't write my cover letter

[hearty island]

tell me why i just got a company email about a bowling event that i’m “strongly encouraged to go to” to be part of the company’s after hours group

what kinda HR is this

[worn orchid]

Free bowling tho...

[hearty island]

i don’t think it’s free 💀

[worn orchid]

Ask if it is then

[hollow vault]

is freelancing on upwork seen positively on a resume? Iv'e been doing it for a couple months now somewhat successfully for someone without a cs degree. Is it worth putting independent contractor on my resume?

[gritty rivet]

absolutely, if that is your most relevant experience then you want to highlight it on your resume for sure

[hollow vault]

cool, i didnt want to put it after just doing one job. but now ive done a few different ones i feel better about it. should I just put Independent Contractor?

[gritty rivet]

common but not cool... I prefer working for a company that respects my personal time

[hearty island]

bro i just wanna workout or sleep after work… there is no in between

[gritty rivet]

I think I put "independent consultant"... contractor to me implies a more formal relationship

[hollow vault]

thats fair

[peak torrent]

hey guys does gpa affect a lot in your job hunting process?

[true harness]

potentially. some internships will require you to have a GPA greater than some cutoff, and will ask for your transcript to verify. in this case it matters a lot. otherwise, not really. assuming you're not putting like, a 1.0 GPA on your resume. also, once you have at least some relevant work experience, you can probably leave out GPA entirely

[peak torrent]

I have 2.5 gpa, but to be honest

[gritty rivet]

if you're not applying for internships that ask directly, I would only include it in your resume if it's above average and just leave it out otherwise. But the more you're highlighting your education over your experience, the more relevant it is to include.

[peak torrent]

i work a full time job. It been so difficult to actually get on track on some class that I don't like

like Astrology they ask for that shit in my college

[true harness]

are you sure it's astrology and not astronomy...

[peak torrent]

loool

[true harness]

either way, i wouldn't put a 2.5. i think a good cutoff is >3

[peak torrent]

I guess I have to put more empathize doing outside projects and get more into networking with local groups. I know for sure if they do scrapping on my resumen with 2.5 gpa i will be out

I just wondering... Have anyone find helpful attending to hackathons?

[true harness]

i've heard good things, but i've not myself

[delicate bane]

[finite vapor]

Hello guys, I'm starting my job search this year as a junior developer for the first time and I would like to know what do you usually write as the salary claim when they ask in forms? What is the competitive market salary?

[peak torrent]

depends in your location i guess

[true harness]

you should be able to find an accurate number for your location very easily

[finite vapor]

that makes sense

[silent pumice]

Where can i find jobs as a python discord bot developer? ( like discord servers or some )

[true harness]

you don't have to include your GPA if it's poor

[finite vapor]

I'm outside US, so when I'm looking for local jobs I should put local prices. Sometimes I'm applying for outside my country, so I should look for each country specifically?

[leaden jasper]

Glassdoor is usually my starting point to get an idea. There are other similar sites you can use to get an idea too

[gritty rivet]

glassdoor, levels.fyi etc. can help, but I am intentionally as vague as possible and try to get them to give a range before I put out any numbers if at all possible. you don't want to be negotiating salary until you have as much info as possible and they already love you

[finite vapor]

definitely will look into that

[gritty rivet]

yes

[finite vapor]

yes, I agree. This is tough in my country though because market prices are already lower then the average global price. Companies here are generally trying to give you the least they can and usually ask on forms for a specific range or figure. It's annoying that sometimes you can't even dodge that.

[delicate bane]

salaries can be very country-specific. mina posted a report from levels yesterday that made this very clear

[hearty island]

scheduling my nissan interview (or should i back out because i already signed a contract for another company)

[true harness]

you can always use it to practice, but

[brave bridge]

After getting rejected by a obviously mass-message for everyone else who got rejected with the same phrases, should I respond to the email and say thanks for the blablabla to leave in good terms or dont they care anyway?

[gritty rivet]

a quick email doesn't take long and doesn't hurt, but the odds that it will lead to an offer are obviously very low

[brave bridge]

ye i was thinking more of in terms of another future application or smth

[true harness]

i would say 0% chance of anything coming out of replying to an automated email

[white relic]

Yeah, I don't respond to form letters.

[hearty island]

i get so many i don't respond either

[leaden jasper]

For me it would depend how much you like the current job/company you signed with. If you're super excited for it, then don't do the nissan interview; it would just be a waste of time for you and the interviewer. If you're meh/neutral about it, do the nissan one. You never know what comes out of it and it could be something that is a way better fit.

[hollow vault]

any negotiating tips? just did my last interview for a company yesterday and they want to talk later today

[hearty island]

"Responsibilities
•
Analysis of PMO/PEC-A profit proxy study accuracy and effectiveness in driving business decisions and identifying trends for actual profit
•
Generation of standard business tools for profit simulation and economic analysis using existing cross-functional reports for integration into business intelligence / visualization tools (e.g., Informatica or Tableau.)"

it sounds exciting but kind of vague

[leaden jasper]

My tip is ask for a slightly higher salary range than you're comfortable with. A company won't renege an offer because you asked for slightly too much money, they'll just let you know what they can do.

[hollow vault]

yeah my main thing is the salary is way lower than what i am wanting, but i also want to get my first job in tech without a cs degree.

[leaden jasper]

So take this with a large amount of salt, it's super situation and context dependent.

If you're low of offers or really need that first job for life reasons, go with it. It'll suck for 1-2 years, but it's so much easier to leverage job experience for a better job vs just a degree. Especially a non-related degree. Focus down for 2 years to get some good projects and stats for your resume and try to make connections within the company, etc. All the good networking stuff. It's hard to overstate the relief from having a job that's on the path you ultimately want from life.

If you have other offers or feel like you can get something better, then it'll be up to you and your risk tolerance.

[white relic]

Without a degree, you'll be looking at a starting salary comparable to that of a position that typically doesn't require a degree, even if the position you actually get typically does, if that makes sense.

[hollow vault]

yeah that makes sense. ugh it sucks cause i have another interview for a position that sounds way better in an hour. but theres no way of guaranteeing the better sounding position

[true harness]

you can always ask for more time for the company you're expecting an offer from

[hollow vault]

thats what im going to try to do i think

[white relic]

After a couple years or so of experience you can start to catch up a bit in terms of salary

[leaden jasper]

You'll be surprised how much time/leeway you can get from companies with this. I know I was.

[brave bridge]

how do you say you need time to decide ?

[true harness]

just like that

[hollow vault]

i hate and love the situation i am in. its stressful but im finally having interview breakthroughs which is so nice

[leaden jasper]

"Thank you so much for the offer. I'm exploring options and need additional time to make an appropriate and informed decision. Can I get a 3 day/1 week/whatever extension on this offer?"

You can include what details you have, like "I have some other interviews scheduled and need X time" if you want.

[leaden jasper]

To build off of this, I took an under paying job as my first one because it was in the area I wanted to work and I was otherwise not having much success. Almost to the day, 2 years later I accepted a better paying job that did the type of work I wanted to do. I was able to mostly catch up on the salary with that one jump and some negotiating. The next job jump caught me up completely and then some.

[gritty rivet]

I agree with this advice but it should be said that there is a greater-than-zero risk that they will change their minds in the meantime. Don't keep them waiting any longer then you really need to.

[turbid dome]

the fact that an employer change their mind after they gave an offer is a signal in itself.

i actually actively avoided a company when i heard they rescinded an offer of a solid ex-colleague of mine for no good reason.

[summer roost]

If your GPA is 2.5, you shouldn't list it on your resume.

[peak torrent]

I will do that. Also, does anyone have landed an internship just with "projects experience" ?

[true harness]

yes, people do that

assuming they're enrolled in university, i mean

[peak torrent]

oh great

[zealous topaz]

if interviewer asks if you know pyspark, what is the ideal answer? I answered how to import findspark and call init, then put customized options in config and use pyspark as you see fit. Is this enough answer?

Just got turned down by interviewer and trying to find in which part I may have made mistake

[delicate bane]

my friend, even if you dont have much experience in something, you should know when to use a tool vs. when not to use a tool. what is pyspark used for? when would you be processing such big data? provide some examples of use cases.

if you really dont know anything about a tool, then just be honest and tell them you dont know. if however you know a tool that does similar things, then you should let them know that you know X or Y instead. i.e. "I'm not as familiar with PySpark, but I'm very comfortable with Dask, etc. etc."

[zealous topaz]

so I prob should've answered like pyspark is a library to use spark in python environment. spark is a framework to process large collection of data, can be compared to hadoop which is similar role to spark but developed when cloud environment was not needed, then continue to extend from original question, leaving gap for interviewer to ask, instead of just basic of how to use pyspark in python

[inner wren]

@vapid jay Per Rule 6, your invite link has been removed. If you believe this was a mistake, please let staff know!

Our server rules can be found here: https://pythondiscord.com/pages/rules

[hollow vault]

should i put months on my resume for jobs/experience or month year?

[spark cobalt]

I think standard is month, year - month, year

of months might raise a small flag of like are you trying to hide gaps or something

[hollow vault]

sorry yeah thats what i meant

[spark cobalt]

But I don't think it's a big issue

[hollow vault]

i currently have month year - month year

[delicate bane]

much better

if youve used it in any projects, this is when you would let them know.

[zealous topaz]

AWS offers such tools - combination of Comprehend and Translate might help. Could also look up to see if there's freeware. I remember coming across PDF to text program from googling

yes 😉 Quickest way to scan and translate also works with google translate app on your phone.

[graceful mason]

...why though?

[zealous topaz]

i do see it in option. you may have to download additional language pack, but it's there. Though it's google so not perfect translation

[graceful mason]

But are you able to write in that language to the level you need to be employable? When you translate it, are you able to read and verify that it was translated correctly? If not you probably shouldn't be applying there

[olive prairie]

so how will chatgpt affect our ability to get jobs in software engineering? Its not perfect yet but how will things look in 5-10 years? Is software engineering about to become much harder to break into as a newgrad?

[spark cobalt]

That's more dependent on the economic climate than ChatGPT.

Even if ChatGPT takes some people's jobs (which is an incredibly optimistic take that probably won't happen for the next 50 years), it's also a gateway to new jobs in tech as well.

[olive prairie]

(which is an incredibly optimistic take that probably won't happen for the next 50 years),

Really? But its ability to generate code from informal english is really good

is that not going to obsolete most of junior programming work?

[spark cobalt]

If you looked at how it performed recently in AoC, it says otherwise.

Even right now as a junior dev, there's literally nothing that ChatGPT can do for me. Copilot can do some I reckon, but ChatGPT? 0.

[white relic]

AI hasn't really succeeded in taking over any jobs yet despite being kind of almost able to drive cars for the last 10 years. Software engineering won't be the first to go

[olive prairie]

how about in the future? AI is progressing at an impressive rate

[spark cobalt]

It's ability is based on holding conversations. The really sketch way to describe it is ChatGPT gets some keywords, then makes some sort of comprehensive sentence for us to understand. That's in no way, shape or form something that can replace our job

[spark cobalt]

No time in the near future. Definitely not within 5-10 years. If anything it can expedite work (like CoPilot) but has CoPilot replaced anyone's jobs?

[olive prairie]

So stuff mostly related to boilerplate code might be the first to go then?

[spark cobalt]

Well, if you asked ChatGPT to make an if statement of whether some variable is equal to 1, it can do it 99% of the time. But no one's job is being replaced.

At least boilerplate code I wouldn't trust an AI to do it ever. Since there's already boilerplate code for many libraries/frameworks out there that you can just use.

AI understanding a library/framework's intentions to create meaningful boilerplate code is, very challenging.

[olive prairie]

hmm ok, thanks for the insight

[spark cobalt]

There's lots more of what you do as a junior dev that AI can't fathom to do in the upcoming decades (some think even centuries is a more realistic take.)

You can try to test the limits of ChatGPT with some coding problems or see how it helps you fix bugs in your project. You'll see that it's capabilities are extremely limited. (I've tried, didn't come close to living up to the hype.)

[delicate bane]

literally this.

man this topic is going to be repeated just as much as the question of going to uni or not, isnt it?

[dreamy spade]

All right. I am currently the project section of my resume. How is this so far?

Projects
•    Implemented a Vehicle Identification Number validator using Java.

[true harness]

is there a name for the project?

[dreamy spade]

Well the java file is called VINValidator.java

[true harness]

i mean a name. facebook is called facebook, not "social media site"

[dreamy spade]

Oh so no name I guess.

[true harness]

that's fine. i would separate each project with a header, something like

Vehicle Identification Number Validator
- did x
- can do y

[dreamy spade]

Interesting idea. I was following this idea from the link someone sent in this chat last night.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bkZxGOQ9eKhuY_vaRubwF-SM4blVtiyg4YKnl4kL6Rw/edit?fbclid=IwAR0Vjm20vXicfVDXnHj35K8hys-Q6X1CgB6jpcu_htT9ap2nWCROPjO_kVM

Learn how to explain experience/projects in an efficient manner!  Bullets should be in the format of -> What you made, How you made it, and the impact/metrics (if applicable). Examples:
Good example of a project outline
Built a full stack web app that generates guides for specific studies in 3 different levels, using MongoDB, Express, React and Node.js.
Implemented JWT authentication and password hashing to protect data from unauthorized sources.
Created unit and integration tests using the React Testing Library and Cyprus, achieving 100% code coverage.

[true harness]

it seems the resume example does exactly what i said

[hollow vault]

yeah i would have a main Projects header and the a subheader with the projects name then below that the description. so it breaks it up visually and looks cleaner

[dreamy spade]

Okay.

[spark cobalt]

There were many resume examples also sent. You should reference them.

[spark cobalt]

@dreamy spade

[hollow vault]

So I just got a job offer. It makes ~$5000 under average for a junior role but has a commission element to it. They said by year two people usually make the base salary + another base salary worth of commission. But that is dependent on the projects you work on.
I am going back and forth on whether to take it because I also have a couple other interviews lined up but they arent guaranteed.

just dont know what to do. they let me have a day to decide

[peak torrent]

wow great dude

in U.S.A?

[true harness]

1 day sounds quite short. i would definitely ask for more time

[hollow vault]

yeah US based

full remote
I technically got until the beginning of the week ( monday) to decide.

[white relic]

That sounds... sus.

What's the job title?

[delicate bane]

it sounds like a consulting gig

[dreamy spade]

How about this.

Projects
VIN Validator
•    Implemented a Vehicle Identification Number validator using the Java programming language.

[hollow vault]

yeah I definitely got that too, but the company has been around for 30 years and its on linked in
Junior Data Analyst

[delicate bane]

[delicate bane]

any company can sign up for linkedin. have you checked any glassdoor company reviews

(if there are any. which you should also take with a grain of salt since it is more likely disgruntled employees will leave reviews)

[hollow vault]

yeah they have middling reviews on glassdoor and indeed. not the best not the worst

[delicate bane]

(but also vice versa too)

[white relic]

I'm shaky on what "commission" even means for a data analyst position
perhaps you have a better sense of what your responsibilities would be

[delicate bane]

hmm interesting. well at least it doesnt seem like a scam

[dreamy spade]

Is it good?

[hollow vault]

Yeah I tried to see if it was a scam when they first reached out to me haha. I got used to only scammers reaching out

Yeah they explained it to me and it makes sense but i dont wanna go to deep into it here for privacy

[delicate bane]

you dont have to. it just sounds like consulting-based work.

[hollow vault]

Clients come to the company with problem. The problems gets analyzed and if it saves money for the client. I get commission based off how much it saves. I only do analyzing not finding the clients

[delicate bane]

do you think a commission system fits with your style of work/do you see yourself succeeding? it works for some peeps, it doesnt for others.

[true harness]

it's not very descriptive. your bullet point doesn't really say anything about the project that the title doesn't. you should maybe describe what it's for, what tools you used, some stats about it if they're impressive or something

and i wouldn't abbreviate VIN in the title

[hollow vault]

I have never worked for commission before. But I think I could make it work. At least for a bit so I can get experience in the field of analytics

[delicate bane]

i think thats a good plan. use this opportunity as leverage to break into the field. it will also help you build communication skills if you are directly working with clients which is important in data roles since there isnt always a translation layer between you and the business

[sleek egret]

I listen to The Clash's "Career Opportunities" every time I enter this channel

[dreamy spade]

How about this?

[sleek egret]

Perhaps you should describe what makes a VIN valid or not?

[dreamy spade]

btw I don't even know how a non-technical recruiter could be impressed by this

[true harness]

i mean, it's ok...but it doesn't explain why your project is interesting

[sleek egret]

oh wait, I thought that was a quiz/test question

a VIN validator is function, not a "project"

[graceful mason]

They don't really care as much about what you did, more what tools you used and the impact it had

[true harness]

tbh, rmah is kinda right. this is like, a homework assignment, not a project

unless there are more details which you haven't described

[dreamy spade]

There's an algorithm you go by. Each number in VIN is multiplied by the weight. All products in each column are summed and then you modulus it by 7. The 9th character of the VIN has to match the modulus which is 11.

[true harness]

is there anything noteworthy about the project that you can write about? just saying you wrote it in java is not very impressive

[dreamy spade]

I'm definitely calling it a project. It was not a simple task for me. It took hours to get it right.

[sleek egret]

sorry, as usual, I butted in without looking at the scrollback. what is the actual topic of discussion right now?

[true harness]

helping his resume out

[sleek egret]

hours is a function or three, not a project

[true harness]

sure. but just saying you wrote it in java does not impress anyone. what is cool about it?

[sleek egret]

but you do you

[dreamy spade]

I wouldn't call it "cool" per say. But it is a procedure that took many algorithms to get it right.

You can simply write in a VIN and the function will check the validity of it.

[true harness]

sure, but you're missing the point. the idea of having this on your resume is to catch the eye of the person reading it. right now, it doesn't do that at all

[dreamy spade]

Yeah probably since recruiters are not technical in the first place.

[true harness]

even still. your bullet point that says you wrote it in java is not impressive.

[dreamy spade]

What's an "impressive" project to you? What are some examples?

[sleek egret]

I can literally type "what's the java code to validate a vehicle identification number. include the checkdigit." into ChatGTP and it'll give me the answer.

[dreamy spade]

I was just putting something that I was proud of man. It wasn't an easy method to make.

[sleek egret]

what's interesting is that code produced by ChatGPT is better than most posted on stackoverflow

[dreamy spade]

Okay. But the difference between that and mine is I used my own thinking to make it.

[true harness]

say you made a web server or something and it can handle 500k requests/s or something. that is interesting

[deft berry]

it's achievable to get a remote job relate to programming while at college?

assuming that college takes a lot of my time

[sleek egret]

yes, it's achievable

[true harness]

sure, but it doesn't help you stand out from the competition. i'm sure any of your classmates at college could also do it

[sleek egret]

It'll typically be structured as an internship

[deft berry]

so, watching interviews is a good way to start?

[true harness]

wdym "watching interviews"?

[sleek egret]

I'd say that applying for internships/jobs is a good way to start

[deft berry]

but with payment? I had a intership one time working with R but it's only for college itself

[dreamy spade]

A freshman wrote this in their resume

PROJECT:
Programming Homework: An Adventure Game (Fall 2014)
*Created a text-based adventure game with a graphical interface in Python.

https://www.cmu.edu/career/documents/sample-resumes-cover-letters/sample-resumes_scs.pdf?fbclid=IwAR39hvkChfCRSuyTOj2UsDMVGa1Alrf2Oov5rvzlbMMCqnpgwAcBu2idgf8

Idk why I can't put a project I made that I was proud of.

[deft berry]

Google Interview for see what the recruters seek

[gritty rivet]

Obviously being complex, innovative, and useful to someone in the real world are all nice to have, but the most important question is whether and how you are demonstrating skills that are relevant to the specific job you are applying for

[sleek egret]

why would you take a job that doesn't pay you anything?

[true harness]

well, you can. no one said you couldn't. it's just that as it stands right now, this project is not that interesting, especially with only that one bullet point

[deft berry]

I assisted the research of a teacher

[dreamy spade]

how you are demonstrating skills that are relevant to the specific job you are applying for

See I had this same argument too last night about adding general labour work experience to my resume when I am applying for tech jobs.

[sleek egret]

my question was rhetorical

[true harness]

and we said that soft skills are important for any job

[sleek egret]

If you have nothing else, then sure include non-relevant work history. if nothing else it shows you can show up on time, so to speak.

[gritty rivet]

that's fine but weak without further explanation... what did you learn? Is it a good example of object-oriented programming? Does it have a user-friendly interface? If I'm going to look at your code, let me know what you want me to be looking for.

[dreamy spade]

I didn't see how adding that I was a warehouse associate was demonstrating skills that are relevant to the tech jobs I am applying for.

[true harness]

we've explained this multiple times. at this point, it's your choice. multiple people with industry experience doing hiring have said to put it

[sleek egret]

assuming you were able to hold onto the job for more than a few months, it shows you are not anti-social, can show up on time, follow directions, etc.

[dreamy spade]

Well I was replying to the other person and explaining that I had the same logic as him.

[gritty rivet]

here too it's about what you want to show.... simply showing a work history is something, but if you can explain any way it showed leadership or problem solving or whatever that's even better

[true harness]

both your logic and his logic still apply though. soft skills are relevant for every job. being a warehouse associate demonstrates you have some level of soft skills

[sleek egret]

of course, if you have relevant job experience, that's better to include

[viral shell]

Hey

[sleek egret]

it's sort of like how I included my "photocopier repair" for the first year or two out of college. but not after I had a few software jobs.

[dreamy spade]

All right. So then I will just scrap the project section and put my work history then.

[true harness]

why can't you have both?

[viral shell]

I have experience in node.js, react, and python. Do you guys think if i work on my java skills and study i could take the ap comp sci exam without taking the class and get a 3+?

[worn orchid]

Java doodoo

[viral shell]

ik but its what the exam is on

[true harness]

yes, it's very easy

[dreamy spade]

It doesn't seem like adding my VIN validator project to my resume was a good idea.

[worn orchid]

But needed for apcompsci exam (second one)

[sleek egret]

anything is possible. but do you really think anyone's answers here to that question has any meaning?

[viral shell]

Whats it on

[true harness]

do you have other projects?

[true harness]

the topics are posted on the site

[dreamy spade]

Yes. I programmed an NPC prompt that was the exact replica of an NPC shop owner in a game called Tibia. He sells and buys weapons and armor.

[true harness]

that sounds somewhat interesting. why not put that on?

[viral shell]

I just finished a small project, where you enter an amount of time you want to focus, every new application that is opened after the time is entered is instantly terminated to help people focus on their school/work.

[sleek egret]

Do you use it?

[viral shell]

Im on break rn im going to try it out when school starts back up

[sleek egret]

heh, let me know how that goes

[viral shell]

I also had a project that is a tazer on your arm that when you dont meet a quota on word for wpm you get tazed

[sleek egret]

Now THAT is innovation!

[viral shell]

It gives 'encouragment'

[viral shell]

Holy fuck this thing is easy

[spark cobalt]

It's an easy 5 for anyone who's done any coding before yeah

[viral shell]

I just need to brush up on java then im straight, no fucking way im spending a year on taking that class for that easy ass exam

[dreamy spade]

How about now?

[smoky quest]

It's a nice context/intro, but it doesn't lay out more info about how it does it, the capabilities nor the impact

[gritty rivet]

what language / skills does this demonstrate?

[dreamy spade]

Is that really necessary? Recruiters are non-technical. What are the odds they will know what an enumeration is?

[dreamy spade]

Java.

[true harness]

it doesn't say

[leaden jasper]

Some hiring managers are technical though. Showing that you know technical details and can talk about some technical details intelligently is important.

[smoky quest]

• Most managers will be technical enough.
• It's not just the recruiters reviewing your resume.
• The details and impact can be meaningful without being technobabbles

[delicate bane]

good luck dude. just see if you can get a hold of a couple practice exams beforehand. maybe working on your time management/test taking skills would be a better use of your time if you feel confident about the content.

[true harness]

it seems unlikely

[viral shell]

Fosho, thanks for the tips

[true harness]

didn't get one

[graceful mason]

Recruiters will filter out most of the applications, and then it's up to technical hiring managers to read through what's left

[deft berry]

technical did you mean documentation details or about the syntax of a language for example

[dreamy spade]

So the NPC will have a Battle Axe that he's selling for 285 gold. If you want to sell him Battle Axe, it will cost 80.

If you write "buy" or "sell" a Battle Axe the Regex will pick up and calculate the cost based on what the player says.

[true harness]

don't tell us, lol. put it on the resume

[dreamy spade]

I just fear that the non-technical recruiter will read it as mumbo jumbo. I don't know how I can simplify it to make it understandable. They don't know what Regex is.

[smoky quest]

In general:

• The reviewers care about the user experience just enough to visualize it and understand the goals
• The reviewers will care a lot more about the implementation details. Like how the prices are decided or fluctuate, or any other relevant mechanism
• The reviewers will care about the claim to fame. Like, why is it cool? How does that demonstrate specific skills and expertise?

As as such, if I was reading that description, my only take away would be there are some regexes somewhere and a text prompt, but no idea about everything else

[viral shell]

Does anyone have tips for me to start doing as a junior in highschool to help prepare for my future in college/internships

[smoky quest]

• Make sure you have good grades so you can get into the college of your choosing
• Build things and have fun!

[graceful mason]

It's literally their job to sort through thousands of applications and find which ones contain the knowledge and experience they've been told to look for. If they've been told regex is important, then they'll look for it even if they don't know what it means. If it's not important you shouldn't necessarily include it on the CV

[viral shell]

Fosho Thanks!

[dreamy spade]

Now that i think about it, I haven't seen many job descriptions that included Must know Regex.

[true harness]

because it's a pretty ubiquitous skill to have

[dreamy spade]

Maaan this is tough.

[delicate bane]

piggybacking off of recursives advice. build and try out lots of things. you can find out what you like vs. dont like.

[sleek egret]

it would be funny to see job ads with a line like: "must know iteration, recursion, closures and rexexes"

regexes even

what is USACO and USACO GOld?

[viral shell]

Thats what i have been doing mainly, I built a minecraft server api, a Tazer that tazes you if you dont hit a specific wpm on word, and just finished a script that terminated all non whitlisted applications (Whitlist saves all open applications at start of script) for a set amount of time then closes everything else to help work. Just fun general projects

[deft berry]

that's nice

[graceful mason]

Job adverts tend to include a list of skills and tech that they're looking for, you want to include projects that demonstrate experience with those

[deft berry]

there is the step-by-step resolution of the problems?

[sleek egret]

is it age classed (you know, like weight classes in fighting sports)?

cool beans. gracias por los infos

[delicate bane]

thats great!

[undone dust]

That's nice 👍

[sleek egret]

yeah, those kind of things are great on a new grad resume. show's a passion for the craft and the tazer thing especially shows that you're not afraid to reach outside of software when necessary.

[viral shell]

Bet! Thanks for the tips!

[smoky quest]

it's not your run of the mill mnist classifier

[elfin sinew]

Hey guys, hope you all are doing well.

My name is Rae, I am a UI/UX designer, I am looking for a web developer to collaborate on a side project. If anyone is interested please DM me. I would be happy to share more details. It is a small project, I believe it can be finished within 1 week.

Thanks for your attention.

[vapid jay]

yo i'm in higschool learning how to code with python , is there any careers that goes well with engineering and coding?

[sleek egret]

well, there are careers in engineering. and in coding (programming).

[vapid jay]

is there any that uses both

[sleek egret]

Pretty much all analytical/technical work these days involve at least a little programming. sometimes a lot of programming.

[viral shell]

I just watched the social network, im on a rampage

[sleek egret]

think of it this way... programming is a way to express and capture multi-step quantitative and analytical knowledge. it's a way you can reduce complexity (by pushing it to the software).

thus, anyone who works in a analytical/technical field, from civil engineering to biochemistry, from astrophysics to traffic planning, from market research to finance... has to write code (or at least understand it) at least a little. this is the new normal.

[vapid jay]

thanks

[sleek egret]

just as an FYI though, most scientist/math/engineer types write horrible code 🙂

so if you can craft robust software with less bugs, you have a valuable skill

[verbal mist]

Hello guys, I’ve learning a lot of programming concepts and how to build softwares and stuffs. But that is only a part of what companies need, they want people who understand project management and can work with the team better.
That’s why I want to learn project management in Agile&scrum methodologies. Do you know any good course with certification for free/low price on project management? It’d help me to add some meaningful lines on my CV

[sleek egret]

If I may, such certs mean almost nothing. if you want to move into management, experience, by far, the most important thing. if you are finding it difficult to get your employer to grant you such roles, then I suggest you try to take on such roles in an open source project (most devs don't want to).

[sleek egret]

Also, beware of "project management" entry-level/low experience jobs. those are actually glorified secretarial positions. I'm assuming you don't want to do that.

[smoky quest]

If you are in HS or college age, a CS degree will be the path of least resistance and most opportunities.

That said, learning to manage your project and conduct the tasks is indeed an important skill. I have found the head first books to be quite good about that.
I would also include other topics related to craftmanship as well (ex: design patterns, CI/CD, etc.)

[delicate bane]

DW would be happy to hear this

[smoky quest]

?

[dreamy shadow]

Sigh, these past two weeks has been playing TELEPHONE AGAIN

[dreamy spade]

So I keep reading advice that are conflicting with other people's advice.

[dreamy shadow]

But now, it's with our Third party OUTSIDE VENDOR.

[leaden jasper]

That happens later in the process. You aren't making it that far in the process with your current resume, as we've said before and several times now.

We never said that what you have on your Github isn't important. But your resume can't be missing crucial items just because it's on your github.

[dreamy spade]

All right.

[graceful mason]

Your important projects on your github should also be included to some degree on your CV - they might not want to go through your repos in detail but they'll want to talk about them

[spark cobalt]

Nothing's conflicting. It doesn't make sense for serious companies to look at Githubs of a person with a severely lacking resume.

[delicate bane]

darkwind

[delicate bane]

you know i was just telling someone about how at work we have what i call "negative context". a little bit of information leads peeps to making the wrong assumptions then moving in the wrong direction. only for the truth to come out and then everyones time was wasted lmao.

[smoky quest]

I don't think they know what they are talking about nor have experience recruiting themselves

[dreamy spade]

An email I got from Indeed. I wonder what happened.

Application status update
A job you applied to was removed by Indeed.
 
Job posting removed
Web/UI Developer


Hi Keezy,
We are reaching out to you because you may have submitted an application to this position which we have removed from Indeed. We recommend using caution if someone attempts to contact you in relation to this job.
There are a variety of standards jobs must meet in order to be visible — you can learn more about those standards here.

Best of luck,
The Indeed Team

[dreamy shadow]

Team Y: "Oh, we got files that failed. Can you advise?"
ME: "Ok, guess we should confirm with Outside Z" Manager: "Why don't YOU send them an email"

Proceeds to me emailing Outside Z, saying hey we had failed files, and now they asking "Which files" and me going to ask team Y which files.

So tomorrow morning, I get to hear back from Team Y what files are F, and I get to pass those along to Outside Z

W/e, at least tomorrow's friday.

[dreamy spade]

My new and revised Resume. Thoughts?

[buoyant seal]

.

[buoyant seal]

Did u write programming experience months and years of not commercial experience?

[near ocean]

Why dont you use the template you were given

[dreamy spade]

Template as in the formatting of my resume?

[near ocean]

Yes

[dreamy spade]

Yes as in I learned the languages but not used the knowledge professionally

[dreamy spade]

I like my format and it's something that I created.

[true harness]

I wouldn't list those times, just put those in one or two lines and you have way more space for other stuff

[buoyant seal]

People ask about the used time professionally usually in 99% cases. Otherwise time is considered of usage is zero. So safely can be removed time mentions

[true harness]

I would also move your work experience down to near the bottom. it's not as relevant as your technical skills. maybe add some detail about what you did

[near ocean]

The template exists and is popular because it works
Youre here because your cv isnt getting you interviews

[spark cobalt]

I would consider your programming experience to be straight up lying. Might not be the intent, but experience on resume always implies professional experience.

[dreamy spade]

What do you guys think of my current template guys?

[true harness]

I don't like it. the icons on the left are nice, but if someone prints this out they've lost all the information

[spark cobalt]

The fact of the matter is, anyone can say they have 5 years of experience in a language, but you don't show that anywhere. The skills section where you list what languages you know should be more of an afterthought, not half of your entire resume.

[true harness]

your programming experience section is using way too much space

[spark cobalt]

You can probably dig deeper in your projects

[buoyant seal]

Which one head first book u mention regarding this? (Project managing)

[dreamy spade]

Do you like the template?

[spark cobalt]

No.

[dreamy spade]

Jesus Christ.

[true harness]

there's a lot of whitespace you could be using

[spark cobalt]

In fact, I hate the fact that we collectively sent dozens of really nice resume examples, and you somehow made a resume that doesn't even look remotely like any of them.

[verbal mist]

Of course, one of my fav YouTuber said small business would leave a copy of keys to you to open their business in the morning if they can, so it’s better to start from mid to big level company

[spark cobalt]

It's not that creating your own template is bad, it's just there's a reason why some things are prioritized over others in other people's templates

[dreamy spade]

I didn't like any of them.

They are all black and white.

[spark cobalt]

Recruiters like them. And recruiters seem to not like yours. You either play the game or not.

[dreamy spade]

No LinkedIn , GitHub icons used in any of them.

[spark cobalt]

Then you can add colors if you want. It doesn't change that the other resume templates had succinct and precise priorities, and yours seem to not have them at all.

[true harness]

that's fine, you can use your own template. just don't complain when you don't get interviews

[thorny sphinx]

Very bad imo

[spark cobalt]

There's many resumes that are great that have colors and the icons. But none of those resumes have half a page dedicated to experience that doesn't exist.

[verbal mist]

Unfortunately we’re not doing very well with our new teacher this year who should be teaching us fundamentals of project management stuffs,
so I decided to take things on my own cause state exam won’t care about how our schools condition was.

[delicate bane]

[dreamy spade]

There has to be resume that work with color.

[spark cobalt]

Keezy people have spent probably cumulatively of over 7 hours with you. I don't really understand what you're not getting

[true harness]

I would compress your programming experience section down to single lines rather than bullets, as well as include other technologies (what db did you use, etc)

[thorny sphinx]

When applying for my internship... I posted links to my GitHub projects with brief summaries + tech used for experience

[spark cobalt]

Sure. Adding colors is fine. We're not complaining about the fact you had colors.

[true harness]

you can easily add color to a common template

[thorny sphinx]

Black and white resumes are best

[pastel quail]

it's pretty easy to take one of the templates and make the headings blue if you're so concerned about color

[thorny sphinx]

Or if you want colour then GitHub hyperlinks to your project lol

[spark cobalt]

Very simple color theme for like headers can make your resume look nicer. But otherwise if you wanna do more than that, apply to some artist position.

[true harness]

that's not really the issue right now though

[thorny sphinx]

I don’t think those exist

[spark cobalt]

Your resume should show your technical ability, not your ability to color. Unless you plan to only apply to UI/UX roles then colors and schema of your resume might pull weight.

[dreamy spade]

I agree that I should use the remainder of the whitespace.

[true harness]

maybe there are some that don't do specifically that type of interview, but they definitely all test your skills in some capacity

[dreamy spade]

This is the idea I got for my resume where they used icons. Looking completely different from the templates that you guys posted. You can't be serious that templates are so important. https://www.etsy.com/ca/listing/936122477/resume-template-cv-template-professional?gpla=1&gao=1&&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=shopping_ca_en_ca_c-paper_and_party_supplies-paper-other&utm_custom1=_k_CjwKCAiAh9qdBhAOEiwAvxIok8OV6v4m8d3Cejd8r7a0Lso6IX607pVLpnJh73-_6XwyapmMSY9rRxoCnBEQAvD_BwE_k_&utm_content=go_318291165_19407839685_75036833325_pla-113134252835_c__936122477enca_123959278&utm_custom2=318291165&gclid=CjwKCAiAh9qdBhAOEiwAvxIok8OV6v4m8d3Cejd8r7a0Lso6IX607pVLpnJh73-_6XwyapmMSY9rRxoCnBEQAvD_BwE

[near ocean]

These CVs only look good to humans

[smoky quest]

Multi-column formats aren't parsed correctly

[near ocean]

Most of the time your CV is just gonna get trashed by some automated system

[thorny sphinx]

Pictures on resume are bad in UK and I’ve heard same in USA

[smoky quest]

I don't have the titles on top of my head, but the titles are along "software development"

[true harness]

it's also a fast, easy, and free way to get your resume tossed

[smoky quest]

also the progress bars means shit

[near ocean]

You can have both versions if you want but unless youre sure your CV is going to a person you should use jake's template on your apps

[delicate bane]

jake's template helping many new peeps

[spark cobalt]

1. You should have the format of your education be the exact same as the other sections. You claim to care about the appearance of your resume, but this education section is literally the opposite of that.
2. For both of your education, cite exactly what kind of diploma/certificate you're graduating with. Just Graduate doesn't give enough information to an employer. You should probably add relevant CS classes.
3. For work experience, I would just do the most recent 2-3, and then do like a bullet point explaining your responsibilities. Particularly responsibilities that coincide with what you would do as a developer (working with customers, working with other employees, etc.)
4. Projects - You can go deeper on projects.
5. Experience - Experience is professional experience. Which is 0 across the board. This should be renamed to something like "Skills" and then list out the things you're familiar with horizontally. This should be less than 1/8th of your resume.

For your overall structure, I think it should be education > projects > work experience/skills (probably just do whatever looks best for the last two). You don't want your resume to see your first big section to be completely unrelated to programming.

[dreamy spade]

You make it like the template you posted is like the law. Meanwhile there's 100's of templating styles to a resume. Templates are as subjective as music is my observation. The information within the resume should be the most concerning for me.

[gusty dome]

when theres more effort put into a resume critique than the resume itself

[spark cobalt]

There are shitty resumes, and there are good resumes. You're not legally required to do a resume a specific way, but don't come in here saying recruiters are gatekeeping roles from you when your resume is far from a good resume.

[true harness]

you are absolutely right, but a poor template can also harm a resume. you have multiple people (and a few with experience doing hiring) telling you to probably switch to a different template

[smoky quest]

Templates don't matter as long as the key information is readable within 30s and it's easily parsed by machines. That template wouldn't be ideal for these constraints

[spark cobalt]

Do note that you're right now preferring advice from your friend and career counselor, than like 5+ people who actually work with hiring developers. If you think that logically makes sense, you do you.

[dreamy spade]

All right. I'll make these changes.

[spark cobalt]

This has been going on for a couple days now btw. Yesterday was like 3-4 hours, the previous day was like 2-3 hours. Yes, hours.

[gusty dome]

yes ive been lurking here

[spark cobalt]

Hopefully this time he actually does the changes.

[true harness]

You should probably add relevant CS classes.
i've actually heard conflicting things about this. some say to do this, while others say that there is some expected coursework that a graduate would have done and that only non-required things (electives) should be added

[thorny sphinx]

If it’s for your first job/internship then side projects should make up most of your resume

I never put degree modules

[spark cobalt]

He doesn't have much on his resume for his technical stuff. Fluff if anything. Like his projects seem very basic, idk how far he can even describe it with.

I'm assuming first is just some CLI stuff, a series of console logs and if statements. And the second is just like the depth of a medium LC question.

[dreamy spade]

Programming Skills
HTML (2 years of skills)          Angular (8 months of skills)    SQL (1 year of skills)    
CSS (2 years of skills)        JavaScript (2 years of skills)    Python (2 years of skills) 
React (5 months of experience)

Is this part better? And what is LC?

[thorny sphinx]

I wouldn’t include something like that

[spark cobalt]

Again, you have 0 experience in all of those things.

[near ocean]

Leetcode and remove the stuff in parens

[true harness]

i wouldn't put any time on these. just collapse these into a single line so you have more space

[thorny sphinx]

I would list your projects, summary of project and technology used to build it

[dreamy spade]

I said skills not experience.

I actually learned all of those languages. What am i suppose to put for them then? My experience is academic.

[spark cobalt]

React (5 months of experience)

2 months of skills doesn't make much sense either. Just list them out. like:

Skills:
Languages: Python, HTML, CSS, ...
Frameworks: React, Angular, ...

[true harness]

just put HTML, CSS, SQL, Python, React. your projects should have examples of you using them

[dreamy spade]

ok

[smoky quest]

Years of skills imply professional experience

[spark cobalt]

That's a lot of classes god damn.

[thorny sphinx]

I was gonna say I’d remove classes from resume then I scrolled down and was like “this person knows what they’re doing” 😄

[spark cobalt]

I mean, recruiter is just gonna skip over the classes. So

Ok yeah I just found his Github.

His Tibia RPG is just console in and out thing. The type of thing you code in like the first week of coding.

VIN validator is like, LC easy and a half. One file 70 lines situation. The algorithm itself is 10 lines.

His RPG:

[dreamy spade]

Skills section good now? I will now proceed to go deeper with the projects section.

[dreamy spade]

How did you find me?

[spark cobalt]

There's only 4 VIN validators on Github coded in Java.

Only one of those people with VIN validator in Java had this Tibia thing.

Verified it because you earlier said you lived in Canada and this account says Canada.

[smoky quest]

Better. However you should list first the most important skills. Right now, you are saying that HTML is the main skill

[dreamy spade]

Dude.. wtf

[spark cobalt]

I'd probably put Java first for programming langauges, since it seems like most of your projects are like that.

If you put HTML/CSS first, it makes you seem frontend focused, though your projects are not frontend at all.

[dreamy spade]

You really doxxed my code dude?

[spark cobalt]

Doxx: search for and publish private or identifying information about (a particular individual) on the internet, typically with malicious intent.

A.) It's not private or identifying information. Your Github doesn't have any of your personal information other than the general area you live in, which you already stated in this chat.
B.) Not malicious.

Purpose was trying to see if you can expand in your projects section, which seems very difficult without overembellishing to the point of lying. I'd add a 3rd project.

[dreamy spade]

Okay fine. But like did you think I would be okay for you to disclose my project or something?

[true harness]

you disclosed it when you sent it on you resume

[smoky quest]

fyi, I would use different projects on your resume. The RPG one would not fly in an interview or as a demonstration of your skills

[spark cobalt]

Neither does your VIN validator ^

[dreamy spade]

How did you find my GitHub profile @spark cobalt ?

[lapis wind]

He just searched for the project and looked at the author

[spark cobalt]

Search Bar: VIN Validator
Language Filter: Java

Went through all 4 people with the VIN Validator in Java. Then only one of them had a Tibia RPG and lived in Canada.

[thorny sphinx]

Search by Tibia RPG might have had lower time complexity

[spark cobalt]

Yeah I did that but I turned up with nothing.

[true harness]

it's the same complexity

[spark cobalt]

Same complexity, different time yeah.

[thorny sphinx]

Yep

[true harness]

better, but i would also add stuff like what database you used, how did you deploy your code, CI/CD stuff.

also, both your projects are java, but you list HTML, CSS, JS, and python. where are your projects in those languages?

[spark cobalt]

Keezy, if someone did look at your Github and saw your HTML project, it's very obvious you copied it straight from some inspect element or something. I would private it.

Also your Tibia and VIN validator are from more than a year ago. Did you not do anything recent?

Apparently a hacker got some Slack employee's 2FA code and exfiltrated Slacks' source code.

[true harness]

ig they were slacking

[spark cobalt]

Oh this happened over the holidays. Damn

[brittle thorn]

Maybe he should take a break from this and do something productive lmao

[spark cobalt]

He should work on a project

[brittle thorn]

Yep

[hollow vault]

after last night i thought it was a troll for sure. but the github disproves that

the github only has history in august and september of last year. long time to sit on that for a troll but idk anything is possible

[spark cobalt]

Career channel really had a Keezy arc

[true harness]

i don't think they're trolling. it's kind of :/ to accuse someone of that

[spark cobalt]

Just found it hard to believe his resume went through career resource at his college.

But now looking back on it, we've had to suggest the same suggestions for more than 10 times to motivate him to fix it. So I guess

[true harness]

it's possible. the person i went to at my college gave absolutely terrible advice

[brittle thorn]

That says something about how helpful or unhelpful it was in his case

[spark cobalt]

For this I think it definitely goes both ways.

[brittle thorn]

Oh so he isn't alone

I never used it lmao

[spark cobalt]

Oh I didn't know they had that kind of reputation

Yeah. Some things he came in today with, has been suggested to change over like 10 times yesterday... Quite literally too.

[delicate bane]

mine was pretty decent. its really dependent on the person there + how much experience they have

[brittle thorn]

Glad I never used them then lmao

[spark cobalt]

Ah so very case by case. Fair enough.

[delicate bane]

as with many things, always best to take it with a grain of salt

[spark cobalt]

Yeah true

[brittle thorn]

I heard some put salt in coffee

[spark cobalt]

ew coffee

[delicate bane]

that is my cue to leave

[spark cobalt]

Tbh, have met people more stubborn than him so that didn't really get me . Like half the people on Twitter more stubborn than him, the crypto geeks and the Elon dickriders too

[brittle thorn]

Those people may run mini cults immune to logic

[brittle thorn]

So the question is what sort of assumptions are people immune to logic working from... these assumptions must be challenged to break their mini cult

Otherwise the debates maybe fruitless

[rugged berry]

Guys what and who are you talking about lol

[hearty island]

an absolute meme judging from what i just read

resume formatting

[spark cobalt]

I don't think it's really a matter of what specifically they're stubborn about. But a matter of some kind of implanting of that ideology through an insecurity which eventually takes over as their personality.

We see this recently in Andrew Tate, and all throughout history.

Often times, this insecurity is artificially created.

[rugged berry]

I'm using the format apple pages is reccommending to me tbh

[thorny sphinx]

Mine was decent

[hearty island]

i use a resume template that’s similar to jake’s template

[spark cobalt]

I mostly just talked to various hiring managers and people from all levels of the chain and sat down to talk about what they prioritize with what I was able to offer.

The online templates for me didn't help much because a lot of them had internships or college which I didn't have. So had to go the more uhh "raw" route

What I learned was people are nicer and more willing to help than you would ever think.

President of recruiting company sat with me for 6 hours, PM at Meta talked to me for like 4 hours and invited me to events to talk to her SWE friends (when I got hired, ended up celebrating with them, super nice and lovely people)

It's like, people are nice. Just have to reach out and not be an asshole. And be humble.

[rugged berry]

No being an asshole definitely helps yeah

[brittle thorn]

So soft skills count...too many just focus on hard skills

That could be one assumption

[spark cobalt]

Lots of young people come off as restless (like a little chaotic) which can be a turnoff. Like two people playing music at a completely different tempo. Makes for a bad match for a lot of younger people with older people.

[brittle thorn]

Also the assumption that people are hostile

[obtuse brook]

Guys I dont have a college degree so what are my realistic chances of getting hired?

[spark cobalt]

I think just comes from misunderstanding. The misunderstanding just leads to avoidance. Humans naturally self segregate, whether that be by age, race, gender, etc.

[spark cobalt]

Are you switching careers and have a degree already? Or did you recently graduate from HS? Pursuing another degree ATM?

[sleek egret]

They are not taught self-discipline or self-control as yutes

couple that with all that "self-esteem" and "you are special" silliness, and you have entire generations where 80% of the population think they should be in the top 1%

so is it any wonder that so many feel they just haven't found their calling yet? which leads to that chaotic energy you mentioned

[spark cobalt]

Not only that, but our education system consistently reinforces and pounds in anxiety to children. Maybe not by intent, but social tension within youth, education standards, political climate, etc., is causing lots of side effects we don't really talk about.

Maybe the more correct term is younger people are more fidgety. They're not calm. They're always anxious, not confident, etc.

Not that they're to blame, lots of things are out of their control that it's not exactly reasonable to expect anything better.

[sleek egret]

IMO, the anxiety comes from a subconscious understanding that the only true path to self-esteem is achievement. in short, achievement -> good self image, not good self image -> achievement

[spark cobalt]

Social media

[sleek egret]

this started long before social media was a major factor in our lives

assuming you have a math PhD, are a top programmer and have a deep understanding of finance, your chances are low

[spark cobalt]

Maybe chaotic is not the word. But uncalm.

[brittle thorn]

Yes but it amplify the issue

[sleek egret]

yeah, I'm coming across very curmudgeony... I don't mean to. there are a lot of great kids out there too

[delicate bane]

i think chaotic energy is an okay term. well maybe it is a bit extreme in some contexts.

[obtuse brook]

dont have a degree and not pursuing one but I have some college years under me

[spark cobalt]

I just think it portrayed what I was trying to say a little inaccurately.

[obtuse brook]

like 2

[spark cobalt]

So in short you dropped out?

[obtuse brook]

yeah idid

[brittle thorn]

In an RPG maybe

[sleek egret]

I see it this way, if you are repeatedly told "you're perfect just the way you are"... doesn't that imply you can't improve? because you're already perfect, after all. but if you then see others achieving more... doesn't that mean you will NEVER achieve more? because, you know, you're perfect as you are.

[spark cobalt]

Unfortunately parenting nowadays is getting worse and worse. Proud to be like the last before the generation of iPad kids came about.

[delicate bane]

i think youre right with social media exacerbating the problem. and other technologies as well. i think its affecting attention spans, self-esteem issues, self-discipline like rmah said, etc.

[sleek egret]

this sort of illogical messaging, IMO, is detrimental to getting kids to try and improve. which means finding what's wrong with you and fixing it

IMO, the message should be "everyone can get better if they work smarter and harder"

[brittle thorn]

It's like a dopamine hit very addictive

[delicate bane]

some people cant stop doom-scrolling and its not good for anybody

[balmy spade]

Some amazing career discussions going on in here as usual.

[delicate bane]

true. we should get back on-topic

[sleek egret]

lol, you never know, they might make a mistake and hire you! try!

[delicate bane]

or at least closer on-topic.

[sleek egret]

come on brah, I was mostly joking because you didn't provide any background info or context

then you need to show skills/achievements/work beyond school

you may be surprised at what some of your profs are doing. even at 3rd tier universities, the profs are doing research and some of them are tops in their field. they all LOVE free labor. so ask and ye shall receive.

especially people who are good programmers. most science/phd types suck at programming.

even if it's just "I'll clean up their code" will be welcome by many profs if it doesn't cut into their budget

[brittle thorn]

I helped one with Matlab lmao

He came begging to be helped

[sleek egret]

and this allows you to say "worked on implementing a new stochastic risk model for hedging commodities derivatives across fx interest swaps" (or some other academic silliness)

[brittle thorn]

Get a paper published too

[sleek egret]

yes, but big long impressive buzzwords!

[brittle thorn]

Those words mean a lot

[sleek egret]

you don't need your name on the paper. just being able to say you worked on something more than trivial class projects is a big ++

[brittle thorn]

Something math heavy

[sleek egret]

there you go, just eliminate the "small" part

you will be asked "was this a class project?" being able to say "no, it was a dr whoever's research" is a big ++

be prepared to answer a "describe the project" in a few minutes. and emphasize that your role was to ensure that the code was higher quality (or something like that)

[brittle thorn]

In other words a non trivial project

[sleek egret]

then make a joke about how most PhD's code sorta sucks 🙂

[brittle thorn]

Seen some

[sleek egret]

then say "wait, you weren't a PhD were you?!?!?!?" with an "oh shit" face

[brittle thorn]

Some still do fortran

[spark cobalt]

This is just very reliant on parenting ultimately.

The education system doesn't help imo. The teachers will always say "You can do anything you want" or something as to avoid conflict, which the conflict would be reality. They'll always try to justify your failure one way or another. Kind of like parents that cover their kids eyes when something brutal happens in a movie.

The things school really teach is to avoid consequence. And that leads to two kinds of kids: those that abide by the rules and those that circumvent it and learn to lie. Those that abide by the rules end up being very great students, but they falter at this aim of achievement. Because their goal is never about achieving anything, but avoiding consequence. All their achievements are limited to the As school can provide. Those that circumvent become great sales people . Whichever way, the school doesn't create creatives, and we don't celebrate creatives. We lay it off as extracurricular things that aren't important.

Achievement is defined in our education system as being this student who never did more than get good grades.

[sleek egret]

then you can both laugh and connect on an emotional level. this is how you build rapport and come across as a colleague rather than a petitioner.

[spark cobalt]

I guess no quant

[sleek egret]

so you're saying schools should beat the kids more. gotcha.

[brittle thorn]

Creatives are seen as weird and marginalized sometimes for not conforming

[spark cobalt]

I think I said the opposite

Consequence already doesn't work. Doesn't make sense to do more. We'll just create better liars.

[sleek egret]

if you want to work on low-level stuff, finance is not the place. sure a handful of shops have a handful of people doing that, but the vast majority of work is quite high level.

[spark cobalt]

Lack of celebration is at fault. We can punish more and nothing will change.

[sleek egret]

what is yoe?

[spark cobalt]

Years of experience.

[brittle thorn]

Do work you really love don't chase money

[sleek egret]

yes, but at least there is more punishment

[spark cobalt]

[sleek egret]

whatever, every generation of kids are disrespectful and worse than previous generations. this has been true for thousands of years.

it is axiomatic

what is TC?

[brittle thorn]

That's binary thinking maybe you start LC then move to TC

[shrewd raven]

Is

[sleek egret]

what does TC and LC mean?

[brittle thorn]

Then level up with time

[spark cobalt]

I don't see it. It just seems like that because as people get older, they think the young people are more and more different to how they grew up. Maybe more of a cycle is more accurate.

LC - Leetcode
TC - Total compensation

[brittle thorn]

Close enough lmao

[sleek egret]

oh

[brittle thorn]

Yeetcode

[spark cobalt]

Ok wtf is CF, crowd funding?

Oh

[sleek egret]

you wanna sound profound as a young 'un when interviewing, say shit like "software development at its core is about complexity management. most code, in isolation, is easy to write and comprehend. it's when you try to get thousands of moving parts working together smoothly that the real problems arise."

[spark cobalt]

Ringringring's most profound words to date is quant or rope.

[sleek egret]

just practice interviewing and learn how to bullshit. one line I liked to use when interviewing for management positions was "the question isn't how long it'll take to complete a project, the real question is how much can be accomplished within a fixed time frame". this doesn't really say anything but it gives the impression that my team wouldn't miss deadlines.

[brittle thorn]

I seen a YouTube video on this their hypothesis is bad times actually make for stronger generations.... and good times produce weak ones. Could explain why immigrants do better lives are harder in the Third World

[sleek egret]

or the old "whether you have 1 woman or 8 women, it still takes 9 months to make a baby" which gives the impression that I'll limit my team' headcount and thus budget

[spark cobalt]

'Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.' This?

[brittle thorn]

Kinda dope lmao

[sleek egret]

yes, I've interviewed hundreds of people

[brittle thorn]

Yes

[spark cobalt]

[sleek egret]

I also think that saying is true

[spark cobalt]

No, rmah is the auto-generated response for when you get denied.

[sleek egret]

huh? could you rephrase that?

oh, yes, I have done that

when we interview for a position, I try to ask the same questions to everyone (or at least variations of the same)

[spark cobalt]

For our company, we have a pool of questions and we just choose from there. Though I think many people just do their own questions

I got asked questions that weren't even remotely similar to any of the hiring docs

[brittle thorn]

Long term and college isn't just about money its about becoming well rounded

[sleek egret]

about <0.1% of new grads make $300k+ in their first year

[spark cobalt]

Hi a stop

[sleek egret]

just FYI, $300k/yr is about the top 1% of income in the USA

the avg age is probably in the 40's or 50's (speculation on my part)

the # of people that make that their first year out of school in "quant" can literally be counted on a few hands

[spark cobalt]

And none of them probably spend 5 hours on Discord everyday

[sleek egret]

heh

one of our interns could be in that group after he finishes university. he's super sharp

[brittle thorn]

Are you reading published papers on that field and trying to understand their logic and code

[delicate bane]

you think he'll stay with you guys

[sleek egret]

this is one out of the dozen or so interns over the last few years

[brittle thorn]

You will fail lmao

[sleek egret]

hahahah... that's funny there's no way we can pay him enough

[delicate bane]

sorry i didnt mean for this to sound so rude.

[brittle thorn]

At least you know now remedy it

[delicate bane]

thats a bummer. i guess theres not really a good way to solve this problem unless they arent as motivated by money?

[sleek egret]

everyone in finance is motivated by money. they're not playing with this shit to save the world, lol

[delicate bane]

ah gotcha. its finance. makes sense.

[sharp shell]

Not very reasonable to aim for that as most programmers start off at a much lower rate

[sleek egret]

I thought you said you wanted to work in finance?

you don't seem to understand. pure software roles are rare in finance. and if they exist, they don't get paid a lot.

every quant writes software every day. software is their tool

[delicate bane]

dont undervalue domain knowledge for your industry

[brittle thorn]

Domain knowledge is important

[sleek egret]

to get those $200k+ quant jobs, it's mostly about domain knowledge

[brittle thorn]

So read papers

[delicate bane]

i got my current job due to domain knowledge

[brittle thorn]

From respected journals

[sleek egret]

that intern I mentioned earlier is currently working on finding the discrepancies between normal options and inverse options. it involves a lot of math, data crunching, back testing etc.

[brittle thorn]

Black-Scholes Model

Stuff like that do study

[sleek egret]

and reading academic papers. earlier today we had a call because he hit a roadblock. turned out a few formulas are not analytically solvable (at least not by the paper's author or us) and so we decided that he should write up a monte-carlo simulation instead. has he ever done that? no.

[brittle thorn]

Yes, Monte Carlo Sims are fun

[sleek egret]

exactly, the reality of inverse options is that they don't follow black-scholes the further the strike is out of the money. that means profit!

[delicate bane]

TIL tanuki may work in finance

[sleek egret]

oh but the pricing up until near expiration seems to follow black-scholes. that is, it's not pricing volatility or time risk properly (i.e. the greeks that most people are using are wrong)

in the finance world, if you're not directly making the firm money, you will not be paid a the big $$$

i.e. system admins get $100k. quants make $200k + bonus of $0 to $1mil+

the swe's are quants

the old model of having quants toss over some math to "the programmers" is mostly gone. the quants write the code now

[brittle thorn]

Not yet was curious and done some research for fun

[sleek egret]

sure there are people who are more software-focused than finance-focused. but you can't write trading bots if you don't know how markets work.

believe whatever you want

[brittle thorn]

But I had done Monte Carlo Sims

[sleek egret]

FAANG jobs are typically much much less math-heavy

quant finance is math (and "data science")

and the day-to-day is writing code. what do you think quants just sit there and think about shit? you gotta prove you concepts

quant devs are the traders and researchers

I mean, manual discretionary traders still exist, of course. but they're not "quants".

seriously, what do you think a "quant trader" does?

[delicate bane]

everything ive come across, seems to lean in rmah's direction. at least according to the quants that come onto podcasts and speak

[sleek egret]

well, then I'll tell you what they do: quant traders write code

[brittle thorn]

Same

[sleek egret]

what sort of code do they write? they write code that executes trades based on algorithmic signals

[delicate bane]

i listen to a lot of podcasts. probably an unhealthy amount but im an auditory learner lol.

[sleek egret]

guess what the hard part is? the function call to submit_trade('XYZ", amount=100, order_type='limit', price=123.45)?

or the algo that determines the amount, price and when to submit?

who comes up with the algos then?

what I'm trying to tell you is that they are all variations on the same theme. and that, in the end, all of them write code on a regular basis. code is how you express your ideas.

have you ever watched the movie "Margin Call"?

if you haven't, go watch it. it is ,by far, the most realistic movie about finance ever made. it's about the lead up MBS crisis and based on real events. if you can guess what firm the film is about, you get a cookie.

[true harness]

goldman

[sleek egret]

you get a cookie 🙂

it seems unlikely to me that software dev is less required now than before

but what do I know <shrug>

if all they do is string together a front end, why do they pay so much? because they're nice generous people?

think man. THINK. put yourself in the company's shoes and try to look at things from their perspective.

that wasn't what I asked

[brittle thorn]

Otherwise why not outsource that lmao

[sleek egret]

I'm not disputing the pay, I'm asking you to think about what they actually do and what's expected of them. then to ask yourself, "if they could get that for $150k, why are they paying $350k?"

after all, they're not paying the janitors $200k, right?

because, trust me on this, if someone is on payroll with the job title "cleaner" and they're making $300k per year, they're not emptying out trash cans and wiping down tables.

well, maybe they have to do that after a job, once in a while. who's to say?

[brittle thorn]

Maybe cleaning up dirty code lmao

[sleek egret]

no

[fierce apex]

citadel evil

[brittle thorn]

Why join them why then

[sleek egret]

ah, now I understand your perspective. a bit of wisdom from an old timer. you never get paid what you're "worth". you get paid what you can get. it's not about how good you are. it's about how much you can extract from your employer.

and conversely, every employer wants to pay as little as they can to retain you. sadly (from their perspective) sometimes this is a lot of money.

so, if all I need is a UI guy who can talk to some back end API's and slap together some JS/HTML/CSS, I'm not gonna be paying $300k. never. there is simply no need, you can get top notch UI guys for half that

they pay that high because they have to. a guy comes up with a idea after idea that makes your firm millions of $'s. you gotta give him a taste of that or else he'll jump ship

but if the guy is not making you money, you don't have to pay top dollar. because... he's not making you money.

[brittle thorn]

And you close shop if you don't make money

[sleek egret]

indeed

anyway, bottom line, you wanna work as quant in finance... learn finance, math and programming.

[brittle thorn]

Buy a book if serous

[sleek egret]

when we hire "programmers", half the interview is about math/finance

one of my two "whiteboard" coding interview tests is to write the code to find the probability of simple a triangle arb

etc. if you know zero about finance and trading, it makes the interview much harder for you,. which is what we want.

[peak halo]

@modern ore if they haven't answered by now, it's probably because they don't want to.

[sleek egret]

so again, if you want to work in the finance industry, learn about finance. I don't know but this doesn't seem like some deep insight to me. anyone?

"I wanna work for the NBA, do I need to know anything about basketball?"

[peak halo]

it depends on what you'd be doing for the NBA, does it not?

[sleek egret]

heh, fair point

monkeys don't need to be paid a lot

[brittle thorn]

We can outsource the monkeys

[sleek egret]

think about what you are saying

[peak halo]

if a quant is "a person who analyzes a situation or event, especially a financial market, by means of complex mathematical and statistical modeling.", it would seem that their understandings of finance and statistics are the things they're paid to understand, and that programming is only a means to performing calculations.

[sleek egret]

capitalism has won. no one pays more than they have to. you don't get paid based on some arbitrary notion of "worth". you get paid based on what they must.

[sleek egret]

exactly. but their day to day is... writing code. code is how to express and crystalize the knowledge and insights.

only a handful of large quant shops write "low level" stuff

[peak halo]

what is "low level", in this context?

[sleek egret]

he means C++ stuff where an understanding of the hardware is helpful

and I suspect most of that crap is for HFT style trading

you know, where microseconds matter. most shops don't care about microseconds

knowing the programming language is a minimum requirement. sort of like saying "literate in english".

[brittle thorn]

You will have to understand requirements

[sleek egret]

it's hardly niche. a lot of desktop and OS software is still written in C/C++

[brittle thorn]

So domain knowledge is important even if you are a code money

[sleek egret]

a shit ton of embedded systems is also C/C++

if interview pressure is too much, you won't survive at these firms

they are not "laid back" places

take a break, go watch "Margin Call"

[brittle thorn]

Laid back places would tend to compensate less

So just be a better person all around

[sleek egret]

lol

[brittle thorn]

Why complain about chances

[sleek egret]

people often confuse statements like "10% get accepted" with "there's a 10% chance of being accepted"

[brittle thorn]

They need to study stats

[cunning condor]

Brother can a data engineer switch to theese roles : cloud eng/devops eng/DBA/Backend without learning too many different skills??

[azure cobalt]

hey guys

[jaunty egret]

hello

what is the scope in programing with python

[azure cobalt]

best answer to this is the github trending section. a lot of different projects built on top of python

[dense patio]

Hello I have a question can I ask? It's related to career

[old silo]

I wanted to build my career in ai field as NLP engineer,i am not very good in studies so thinking of dropping out as college is just wasting time teaching other subjects which is not needed in my career ,is it mandatory to have a degree to build career in this field or i can get a job without that also

I am from India.

[viral shell]

good lord you sound like my brother

[undone tendon]

Do you guys think I should apply for interships this summer

[spark cobalt]

If you feel ready and up to it, sure. Though next time I would suggest making this decision earlier (lots of questions to ask like are you willing to relocate? etc.)

2023 summer internships started quite a while ago...

[reef dawn]

What are the most important things in python to learn for data stuff and physics research (undergrad level stuff)

Planning on applying for research internships and need some programming ability

[vapid jay]

@scarlet arrow This channel is not meant for recruitment.

[runic stirrup]

whats the fastest way to make money with python

[void bay]

Get hired maybe

[solid saddle]

xDDDD

[buoyant seal]

It depends on what skills u have already.
Share resume or something

[undone tendon]

Should I still apply if I have no experience to an internship

[white relic]

internships are for people with no or minimal experience

usually university students

[undone tendon]

I am a freshman

I want to learn python in 4 months