career-advice

[spark cobalt]

My dad has like hundreds of spreadsheets littered everywhere. An absolute nightmare.

Lots of things you can do to make work more efficient.

[vapid jay]

this is interesting. So I can use it for automating small tasks, my websites, dealing with some spreadsheets etc. So the hobby won't be useless after all.

[inner wren]

Hey @coral quest!

It looks like you tried to attach file type(s) that we do not allow (.zip). We currently allow the following file types: .gif, .jpg, .jpeg, .mov, .mp4, .mpg, .png, .mp3, .wav, .ogg, .webm, .webp, .flac, .m4a, .csv, .json.

Feel free to ask in #community-meta if you think this is a mistake.

[livid tendon]

Hello, I'm an Indian student was wondering what I need to get a job in data science? I have been learning for the past 1 year (self taught) with the help of tutorials, bootcamp, & book .
I know python & some of its libraries such as pandas, matplotlib, numpy, etc , SQL , tableau, etc

I have built some projects on ml classifiers to detect survival of COVID 19 patients.
An dl model to classify whether a person is happy or sad on the basis of image

[balmy mural]

For data science you'll generally need at least a bachelor's degree, if not a master's degree or a PhD

[livid tendon]

I have a bachelor's in commerce been a year since i completed it

[covert bolt]

Does anyone here have experience with getting online certifications, from Coursera as an exampke? Do most higher paying jobs even care about them? Or what're they all about?

[balmy mural]

Having a degree helps, but that still doesn't really give you the mathematical and statistical background to qualify you for the job. I don't know if a degree outside of STEM would be enough, maybe someone else can weigh in on that, but if it is enough to get you to some interviews, you'll want to focus on calculus, linear algebra, statistics to be able to pass the interviews

[balmy mural]

They don't mean anything except for official cloud certifications in specific technologies (Azure/AWS), but those also don't carry much weight

[near ocean]

I cant imagine any software job to care about random certifications

[livid tendon]

I was doing CA so i think my maths & stats are good just need to brush up

But I'm not getting any calls or reply from recruiters .
I am trying on naukri & monster job portals to get some interviews but it seems futile

[covert bolt]

so its pretty much just for fluff purposes, wonder why theyre so expensive then if they dont pay off

[near ocean]

People think they work, they buy them

[balmy mural]

The maths you do in a CA degree is significantly different that those of a CS degree, and Data Science is leaning more and more towards having an even higher education. I have a bachelors in Data Science, I'm working as a software engineer since I was only able to land one interview for a data science position, and every single position I applied to asked for at least a master's degree

[livid tendon]

So should I complete Mcom then?

If there is a way to get some internship even unpaid i think I'm capable of learning new stuff

Or should I go for some other field such as CS & get back to college?

[balmy mural]

Mcom is still in an unrelated field. I don't know if that would help or be pointless for DS jobs. Maybe someone else could weigh in on that.

[spark cobalt]

Certifications are poor ways to display skill, especially since 99.99% of them are unknown to just about any employer (and many can be cheated as well, are taught by developers with limited experience, aren't in depth courses, etc.). If you're persistent in doing self taught, create projects that'll compel an employer to take a chance on you over someone with a degree.

[livid tendon]

Sir, Can you help me for an internship or guide me what kind of projects would help to get an internship

[near ocean]

Internships are usually reserved for students, are you a CS student?

[livid tendon]

I'm currently trying to learn data science as a self taught learner

my college was in commerce field where i completed my bcom from Mumbai University

[sullen wyvern]

https://highnessatharva.github.io/

👋🏻 Hello, I have built and deployed my Dev Portfolio site and am looking for feedback, improvements, bug reports or any other general suggestions. Please let me know your thoughts about it.

Please check all the 6 pages (almost everything you see has active links). Site should be responsive on mobile as well. "Open Source" and "Projects" page updates in real-time based on my GitHub profile.

If you are curious, this was built with ReactJS. Thanks for reviewing it!

[livid tendon]

Is there no way i can find some internship to get started?

[near ocean]

Its highly unlikely you'll be able to find an internship without being a student in europe or the us
I have no idea how theyre handled in india

[raw sable]

Hello, I'm 15 year old and currently have intermediate level in python. I would like to know how can I start earning money as a -18.

[limpid trench]

Maybe coding lessons or helping people to debug code on fiverr??

[raw sable]

that don't sound pay much...

[limpid trench]

It adds up, but that is the best you can do with intermediate level of programming

[raw sable]

I'm still self learning. So I'm progressing. I want to know like if there is any website (I couldn't find) where people ask you to code that and you get paid that much.

[limpid trench]

Go on fiverr and check, people with experience and many 5 star reviews charge an insane amount and no one cares

[raw sable]

Alright I'll do that. Thank you

[exotic shoal]

I’ve completed my bachelors in physics, will I be able to land in DS job if i complete my masters in physics and the problem is my bachelors didn’t had any CS subject

[gilded valley]

Lots of people go into data analyst and data scientist roles from non-CS stem degrees. Whether you can or not is dependant on you

[delicate bane]

here is even an example: #career-advice message

[delicate bane]

if i were you, i would try to do internships during grad school as much as possible. thatll help you with a job in data afterwards.

[gilded valley]

I'm not sure why you'd do the physics MSc if the goal is to be a data person

[elfin marsh]

i can understand the tools of programming but i'm not sure how to design it to work for that particular problem

is that like innate ability or can it be learnt ?

[exotic shoal]

Yeah, the only thing is it’s hard to get into data science programs bc I didn’t had any programming experience that’s why , otherwise i wanna get into master’s program in data science too

[gilded valley]

This is a question better suited to python general

[elfin marsh]

ok

[gilded valley]

What country are you in?

[exotic shoal]

Im in India rn and here, i can take DS program here but in germany it seems hard, and i wanna go germany and do my masters there

[delicate bane]

yeah agreed. i have a friend who is an undergrad physics major who ive convinced to go the DS route instead of physics grad school

[gilded valley]

There's nothing wrong with physics if you want to work in the field or publish a couple of papers before you move to industry, but doing it with the goal of moving to DS seems backwards

[delicate bane]

theyve realized they dont want to do physics academia after halfway through their program

[near ocean]

Academia claims one more victim, so early into the year

[delicate bane]

they also realized there are few physics industry jobs in their country (i think this may be the case in most places)

[brittle thorn]

Mostly end up as profs even after PHD

[hearty island]

i’m at the moment trying to decide between data analytics or getting a PMP cert and doing project management 💀

currently an undergrad junior studying biz analytics

i feel a lot hinges on this data analytics internship over the summer

[hearty island]

and my data analytics internship sounds a lot like project management too

[delicate bane]

why not try both and wait to see which one you like more

[hearty island]

the job description makes it sound like a blend of project management and data analytics

[delicate bane]

hmm it does

[patent grove]

you'd actually be surprised lol. so many tech leads/seniors have recommended me to do them from cisco and apple. they also mentioned it when interviewing me for my current data engineering job. it helps plenty if you are looking for an internship and even job

[hearty island]

oh shit, i have an interview with nissan bonk

[delicate bane]

good luck!

[hearty island]

thanks!

[elfin marsh]

Is getting into programming just for the sake of money a really bad idea when i really need the money and no other fields of work offer a good sum where I live . Have been working in IT as support for 7 years .

[hearty island]

just for the sake of money?

[patent grove]

most people say yes but i say no. i went to uni for CS cuz it pays really well and i can work remotely

look at the percentages of how miserable people are working jobs, you'd probably be miserable anywhere. atleast this career pays well and u can work remotely

[white relic]

everybody has to make a living somehow, there's no shame in pursuing a lucrative career.

[patent grove]

i have a few side hustles going at home too so it allows me to make a little more cash on the side

imo its a great career decision if you're looking to make some cash and advance in lifestyle

[elfin marsh]

Exactly lol i know I'm pretty average at best never might make it to faang etc . Yeah reality does bite sometimes . I tried a short stint as a social worker and that didn't pan out well it wasn't rewarding at all and was made to work like a slave . I came to realize that work is just for money in the end a trade for our time and energy.

When bills pile up passion can die off real fast (i live in one of the most expensive cities in the world) .

[white relic]

But a lot of people have mistaken ideas about how easy it will be to find a good job so I would encourage you to be realistic. Most people don't switch careers midstream and suddenly start getting paid like an experienced developer, nor make meaningful cash from jobs on fiverr or whatever

where are you located in the world?

[elfin marsh]

Singapore here.

[white relic]

some of the most expensive cities in the world are hard places to try to be a developer, either because the market is already flooded (Bay area) or because programming has low salaries in general (London)
idk anything much about Singapore (in economic terms)

[elfin marsh]

I think I would be pretty happy and content earning around 80k a year or something close to that .

Singapore is mainly a financial hub which is why I'm guessing programmers are more well sought after.

[white relic]

you would be well advised to seek some perspective from your local programmer community. This server has a bias toward how things are in the EU and US

[near ocean]

Doing anything for the sake of money is not going to work out most likely, mot just programming

Youre going to have to spend a very large chunk of your life doing this one thing, you should enjoy it if you want it to last

[elfin marsh]

That's true too .. doing anything just for passion alone is not going to work out either if the market doesn't support it or limited opportunities.

[white relic]

with that caveat, I think your career is what you make of it. If you are motivated to go back to university and get a CS degree, while learning about finance or whatever else highly paid programmers in Singapore do, you'll be well positioned to get one of those highly paid jobs

if you don't go back to school but take a couple years to learn on your own, build a portfolio, etc. it will be harder, but you can still probably do all right

if you just start applying to developer jobs without any training, you might get lucky and be hired, but you won't be in competition for those high-paying jobs.

[elfin marsh]

Yeah i get you higher paying jobs means higher competition over competency .

[white relic]

note that a lot of high paying jobs are not really about programming but about finance or data science or R&D - learning programming alone doesn't qualify you for that kind of position.

[hearty island]

domain knowledge

[white relic]

Exactly. It's a big part of why Python ranks highly on "well paid programming languages" metrics.

Many people who work in high-paying fields tend to use Python in their jobs, but that doesn't mean that they are paid well for knowing Python.

[elfin marsh]

Hmm that might be true too thanks Trent for the insight.

[dull plover]

good evening, I'm new to the server, it is possible to post job offers here (or where?)

[balmy mural]

!rule 9
There's no place to post job offers on the server

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[balmy mural]

From the channel description you can look at https://www.python.org/jobs/ and https://www.pythonjobshq.com/

[balmy mural]

From the opinions of seniors and people making hiring decisions in this channel that I've read, they don't mean anything. I also don't really consider CCNA certifications to be relevant to people who want to do software engineering, so that would be somewhat of a different domain imo

[patent grove]

idk man apparently it helped me get a job. so did my github portfolio apparently

they check everything

[pine sleet]

I'm doing my CCNA right now
Guess I'm not doing software engineering then 😂

[smoky quest]

CCNA is more for networking. There would be a higher ROI on projects for a swe role.

A CCNA certification certifies a technician's ability to install, set up, configure, troubleshoot and operate a medium-sized routed and switched computer network. This also includes implementing and verifying connections to a wide area network (WAN).

[pine sleet]

Yeah
I'm not really planning on going into SWE

More as a backup / hobby than anything haha
But networking will probably be my actual career choice

I've picked electrical engineering as my major and computer science a minor
I think that this will support this career choice further but I'm not 100% sure

[sleek egret]

have fun designing circuits!

honestly, my EE classes made my head hurt. especially the analog circuit ones

[delicate bane]

my cousin was an ECE major. now hes trying to switch to more of a software role lol

[sleek egret]

software is easier because there are so many jobs with random ass titles that pay about the same. it would be as if we called everyone from a bedpan collector to witch doctors to nurses to brain surgeons the same thing, "medical professional".

[delicate bane]

not the witch doctor 💀

[sleek egret]

dude, there are plenty of witch doctors in the software space

[delicate bane]

oh man tell me more. whats the witch doctor equivalent in software world

[sleek egret]

you know, those "architects" who have never actually written the code for systems like they try to "design"

or those "scrummasters" and their ilk

this talk of witch doctors reminds me of this scene => https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWdfDsLvm9I

[delicate bane]

[delicate bane]

what about "software consultants"

[lost flint]

Hi all, new to server, and checking out resources. Nothing in the pinned I can see, but can anyone recommend any recruiters in London? Meaning actual real people I can interact with? Looking for entry level data analyst in finance sector. Gracias.

[mortal wedge]

Have you tried linkedin/or just searching for technical/programming recruiting firms? That's how I connected with a few recruiters I know. Although I also met one in a bar, haha

[mortal wedge]

Apologies if I'm missing context, but outside of extremely niche situations certs generally mean nothing. Or at the very least, nothing compared to having a degree/work experience. I know google and Amazon like it when you take their own certs. But nobody I know of in the hiring realm care. I mean, put it on your linkedin, but take it to learn something, don't take it for no other reason than thinking it's the best thing to do for pursuing a career.

Even github, which is more geared towards showing off your technical expertise, is not going to be checked until fairly late in the process.

[spark cobalt]

On network side of things, CCNA is pretty well regarded

One of my managers recommended me try it out

[mortal wedge]

Got it. Must be one of the exceptions, then

Does networking fall under the umbrella of SWE?

[balmy spade]

No*
Yes*
maybe

[balmy mural]

I think quite a few of the jobs that lean more towards hardware side of things, certifications do have more weight to them than SWE

[hearty island]

i just had my interview with Nissan

but they want me to relocate to their main office in Tennessee for it

[smoky quest]

It's a separate role. Networking people would be the people maintaining the switches, routers, load balancers, sometimes racks, etc.

[mortal wedge]

Gotcha

And yeah, that makes sense that for hardware there may be certs that matter.

[hearty island]

nissan does offer relocation assistance and a housing stipend + a car to their interns but idk if i wanna do all that

[gritty rivet]

I suppose it would be crazy to turn that down if you can't find anything as good locally, but just as crazy to accept it if you can 😉

[balmy spade]

An intern package would have to have some pretty serious extras if it falls through for me to consider a relocation at the same time.

[hearty island]

i already have a remote internship lined up for the summer

[smoky quest]

For internships, I do recommend going on-site. There is so much to learn

Plus you do get to see some other parts of the country and expand your mind for a few months

[white relic]

that sounds like a great opportunity to me, also I like Tennessee but sounds good regardless

[mortal wedge]

I wouldn't relocate, but I also bought a condo, sooooo

But some internships I can see being a lot better on-site. Mainly if you're interacting with hardware at all. Otherwise what are you going to do, send over driver software and have them tell you how it's working?

[hearty island]

it’s a “program manager analyst” intern position, yes it’s for the summer

[white relic]

I mean, it's an internship... I'm assuming this is like a summer thing right?

[delicate bane]

i think some people do better on-site aka me. but what can you do when you have a remote job lol

i mean, i could also move to TN but im good lol

no offense trent lol

[white relic]

none taken

[smoky quest]

It's an internship. You are there for 2-6months top. You ain't moving forever.

[white relic]

moving to another state for a few months, when relocation expenses are paid and a housing stipend + car, sounds pretty usual to me

I mean, not every company offers that good a deal, but some do

what else are you going to do with your summer?

[delicate bane]

oh i meant for my full time job. yeah if its for an internship, go for it

[hearty island]

i do have a remote internship over the summer that i got a bit ago

[delicate bane]

my company's headquarters is based in nashville

[smoky quest]

You already signed?

[hearty island]

yes, so that has to put it out of the question

[delicate bane]

welp.

[smoky quest]

ah that would be a dick move to renege on it

[white relic]

indeed.

[hearty island]

yeah i can’t do that

[delicate bane]

yeah and peeps would know

[hearty island]

it's a good company too

[delicate bane]

ah if its a good company and you think you can see yourself joining after school, then you should do that

[hearty island]

i'm not sure if i should name it out of the chances of me being doxxed

[glacial mural]

hey i need big help

[hearty island]

actually i have named it before on this server 💀

[mortal wedge]

I mean, that's a personal choice/decision you need to make, but doing well on an internship gives you a lot of points for when you want a full time job

[glacial mural]

i accidentally opened a file, and think its a virus, i tried decompiling it, and found a main.pyc file, i tried decompile6, it still not working, anything i can do to fix it?

[mortal wedge]

That's my official advice, my unofficial advice is ||don't be a dick :P||

[mortal wedge]

This isn't the right channel for this, this is #career-advice

[glacial mural]

oh, sorry!

[hearty island]

thanks everyone for the advice

[white relic]

Good luck!

[smoky quest]

If your remote internship has an office somewhere in the world, I would recommend to investigate going on-site too

[hearty island]

i will

[smoky quest]

An internship is not just about writing some code for your resume. It's also an opportunity to see from the inside how teams work together, how companies are organized and learn about other roles, including marketing/sales or even the receptionist!

[white relic]

hope you are as lucky as one of our remote interns who got a free trip to Hawaii last year

[hearty island]

hahaha idk about hawaii

[white relic]

it was for a conference. Normally we wouldn't bring interns but the core team was pretty small so everyone got to go

[mortal wedge]

oh damn nice

[spark cobalt]

Also building connections within your workplace is much more effective in person.

[mortal wedge]

As much as I hate to say this as almost entirely remote employee, there's nuance in face to face conversations that are lost when you go from face to face to video chat to just voice, to just text. Basically, the more you lose in the medium the more the other person is going to assume in those missing gaps.

[spark cobalt]

If you're aiming for a return offer, you're able to be much more than a picture on a screen and are able to be more memorable yada yada.

Also, going out of your way to be on site shows that you care. Racking up the little things will go a long way

Holidays fucked my mental lol. I can barely work 3 hours straight anymore. Need to take a break

[mortal wedge]

I super get that and I doubt you're alone in that regard

[spark cobalt]

Time to shop at Costco then go back to work

It's worse that the ticket Im on is so convoluted. Basically configuring bulk edit permissions and the permissions have like 4 levels of hierarchies (like organization > groups > owners > users kind of thing). Weird logics that's not that fun... No wonder the other person on my team didn't do this for almost a year

He has no clue how it should be configured or how any of it should work

This day an entire brainfuck

[spark cobalt]

Might need to rearchitecture some stuff. The issue with this project was it was created by someone who didn't have experience in web development so lots of structural issues which make it kind of annoying to code in. Like 15% of the codebase is pure redundancy and can be reduced. Probably like almost eliminated entirely.

Something for the future I guess

[mortal wedge]

Yeah, sounds like a refactor is in the works, or should be

[spark cobalt]

Nvm this ticket isn't difficult.

We doing a refactor soon for backend. But frontend phew...

[vapid jay]

hello

how are u guys?

[spark cobalt]

We have like 40 files that are pretty much the exact same thing line by line for frontend

Folders* of the same component layout. Can just reduce it all to one thing cuz all of them have the same functionalities.

[vapid jay]

is anyone knows where can i get online python certification for free?

[spark cobalt]

Is there a reason you want a certificate? Is it for learning purposes? Job hunting purposes?

[vapid jay]

it's for my career cause i live in Iran many companies here want certifications

[spark cobalt]

Hmm idk Iran too well to comment on effectiveness of certificates there. In the US at least, certificates are nearly useless and disregarded for the most part by employers.

freeCodeCamp has a free Python one. Granted, it's easy as shit, and you can finish the entire thing in 2 hours. Not really a good testament of Python knowledge cuz like people with 1 month of doing Python can get it easily with 0 effort.

If you've coded in Python, you can just go directly to their exam (project section) and finish everything in a couple of hours. The course itself is really dry.

[vapid jay]

aha ok
thanks ❤️

[delicate bane]

germany also apparently loves their certificates

[spark cobalt]

Ok finished this ticket. I need a nap.

I already miss my 11 hour sleep schedule on break

[patent grove]

I mean it was checked... why not higher ur chances of getting employed in any way possible? even the slightest edge over a candidate may get you the job

[mortal wedge]

Because there are generally better uses for your time. Your time is limited, if you're outside of those niche situations you are better served sending out additional apps, working on your linkedin, working on your github, tidying up your resume, etc.

[patent grove]

im not sure if i understand lol. im just glad i did it cuz it helped me land the job apparently

ig its very unlikely they care about it but in my case they did so it worked for me

[mortal wedge]

That's good, but that's not the norm.

[patent grove]

they are so easy to get idk, i feel like its still worth the time

[true harness]

they cost money

[gilded valley]

If I'm looking at at CV and the difference is a cert vs a project, the project is always going to carry more weight. A cert implies that someone is chasing a job and not actually trying to figure out how to become a good developer

[quartz stone]

Basic info - 18, M , India
Exp : nothing, even I don't have a pc till now (but i love maths and i feel like playing with numbers and coding will be a ideal career option for me)

Question : what to start with? C/python/java or what else.

And

Am I late to start? ( be honest , like i have seen 12y/o kids know basic coding stuff)

[pine sleet]

Nah, never too late to start.
We're a bit biased here but Python is great to start off with. You'll also learn a bunch of other languages in University if you're planning on going

You might find data science to suit your fancy seeing how you like math and playing with numbers

[quartz stone]

Thanks, Is there any #channel here or maybe you can link me with a yt video/channel where I can start (purely basics and all)
Will help a lot lot

[pine sleet]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[vapid jay]

Dell G15 5511 Gaming Laptop, Intel Core i5-11260H, Windows 11 + MSO 8Gb/512Gb SSD/Nvidia RTX 3050 4Gb GDDR6/15.6" (39.62Cms) FHD WVA AG 250 Nits 120Hz, Orange Backlit KB, (D560825WIN9B, 2.65Kgs) https://amzn.eu/d/fS7LeeB

ASUS TUF Gaming A15, 15.6-inch (39.62 cms) FHD 144Hz, AMD Ryzen 5 4600H, 4GB NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1650, Gaming Laptop (8GB/512GB SSD/90WHrs Battery/Windows 11/Black/2.3 Kg), FA506IHRB-HN079W https://amzn.eu/d/524tHq5

https://dl.flipkart.com/dl/acer-aspire-7-core-i5-12th-gen-8-gb-512-gb-ssd-windows-11-home-4-graphics-nvidia-geforce-rtx-3050-a715-51g-gaming-laptop/p/itmafe10258b06e6?pid=COMGHY4DFFQC2ZHW&cmpid=product.share.pp&_refId=PP.e7cd13d5-9c96-407f-9dd3-22a7ec284bad.COMGHY4DFFQC2ZHW&_appId=CL

Which one is good?

Or just buy a macbook air m1 ( problem with mac is it'll be costly to handle + most of my frnd's don't own a mac so will be a bit of hassle to get help when needed )

[gilded valley]

This is not relevant to careers - try #python-discussion

[peak halo]

not relevant to careers, or even python per se. try one of the three off-topic channels. (CC @gilded valley)

[vapid jay]

;-;
If anyone has answers feel free to ping me in #python-discussion and let me know
Coz i have been trying to buy one since 2 months and couldn't final which one

• if you all have any recommendations please please let me know
  Idk much

without laptop there'll be no career hehe

[peak halo]

No more messages about this in this channel, please.

[patent grove]

nope not late at all.. i started my second bachelors program in CS in 2020 right after my first bachelors and got a data engineering position in 2022. only been seriously coding for a year and a half

its never too late my friend. you might cry or break a few things on the way but thats totally normal

[sleek egret]

it's 2023. it's too late

dec 31, 2022 was the deadline

[delicate bane]

i think it really depends on the job role/country job market. for example, many IT or devops roles look favorably on certs

[smoky quest]

On the other end of the spectrum, too many certifications means the candidate is trying to compensate for something and is a flag. Sometimes you see a resume with a gazillion certs on it and the candidates never pan out

[sleek egret]

in fairness, sometimes you see a resume with no certs and they don't pan out too

some people just find it difficult to get their foot in the door and get certs to try to work around that. it's understandable and, IMO, should not be denigrated. I get your point about too many certs, but I don't think that's a HUGE red flag, just a minor one

[smoky quest]

the point is having 1-3 certs is fine, ignored at worst. Having 10 different certs (with sometimes a degree) sends a different kind of signal

[white relic]

personally, certs just don't move the needle for me at all if I'm reviewing a résumé

but yeah having a dozen would be kind of odd

[sleek egret]

indeed. 10 certs would make me wonder

[pine sleet]

By "certs" can y'all give a few examples?
It might be high time I get a few from what you're saying :P

[white relic]

Can't remember the last one I saw because I took no notice of it 😛

[sleek egret]

well, there are original certs, wintergreen certs, peppermint certs, orange certs and lemon/lime certs

[pine sleet]

... or I might just not

[sleek egret]

oh, and certs with retzin, of course. whatever retzin is

[pine sleet]

Don't seem all that important in comparision with a good portfolio and a college degree haha

[spark cobalt]

I mean if you have a portfolio and a college degree, your resume is like 80% filled. Then just add some skills section or something and you're fine

[pseudo spade]

u can reddit like that

[spark cobalt]

Certs just been filler for me

[hollow vault]

does anyone know how enforceable it is for a job to hire you and say that you have to work there for 3 years?

[spark cobalt]

Contract? You can leave your contract anytime, and your employer can terminate it anytime.

In no one's best interest to keep you hired if you want to leave.

[hollow vault]

havent seen the contract yet, but they have referred to me needing to stay for 3 years

the only thing i could think of would be for me to have to pay back some bonus of some kind or something. I don't know what they could do past that

[brittle thorn]

Watch out for Training Bonds if you get Training the Corp might want you to pay bacc if you leave too soon

[spark cobalt]

At least in California, you have protected rights to bonuses. Maybe not stocks though.

[brittle thorn]

If you are going to big Corp like Accenture a Training bond might be there

[hollow vault]

yeah. I am definitely gonna try to understand the contract and worst comes to worst i wont take the job if the stipulations seem too weird

its not a company like that. it is a regular business

[brittle thorn]

Corp will clawback shares if you leave too early...check vesting schedule

[rain shoal]

yo quick question if I wanted to get an accredited python certification of some kind while doing university what should I get? Is the PCEP the best one?

[brittle thorn]

Yes get a lawyer to review it if you can

[rain shoal]

this isnt to work as a software engineer fulltime just to go with a mechanical engineering degree

[spark cobalt]

PCEP/PCAP are rather very introductory level Python certificates. It overembellishes what is involved in the certificates.

[hollow vault]

i have an interview with the ceo tomorrow so i am planning to ask more about it then

[rain shoal]

ahh i see

[brittle thorn]

Good luck

[spark cobalt]

If you need it, I guess. But afaik they're not super well known or highly regarded. They're independent organization.

[brittle thorn]

Smaller startups can be moar flexible...learn to negotiate

[rain shoal]

anything better? ill be in university for 5 years so ive got time to get a better one but i just dont wanna major in it

[spark cobalt]

Smaller startups will especially want to tie you in for the long run.

[delicate bane]

whats your end goal?

im confused with the premise of trying to get a python cert but not wanting to work as a software engineer. why even get a cert in the first place?

[rain shoal]

basically just something to prove my competency in python

[delicate bane]

we also talked about how they arent that useful, especially in the states.

[rain shoal]

because if i want to work in management between for example the mechanical and the softare teams which i do

[brittle thorn]

A project might prove competence

[delicate bane]

i think you would be better served working on projects instead

[rain shoal]

yah okay

[brittle thorn]

Do a project related to your field

[hollow vault]

yeah especially in job interviews projects are a good way to lighten things up

[brittle thorn]

Like Robotics and Mechatronics

[rain shoal]

yeahh ok

[spark cobalt]

Getting into deep conversations about one of your projects is super fun!

[hollow vault]

in all my interviews my projects are talked about and it is a nice break for me to be able to catch my breath and reset my nerves because i can talk about something I am confident in

[rain shoal]

riight ok

[spark cobalt]

Those interviews are the best

[rain shoal]

yeah ok ill definitely do that. ill probably come back here in a year looking for ideas lol

[brittle thorn]

Good luck

[rain shoal]

Thank you very much!

[hollow vault]

yeah mine too. it always makes me laugh when i bring up my project of reverse engineering a gameboy game while in a job interview

[brittle thorn]

See it doesn't have to be strictly related to job function I guess you did it for fun....some people neglect fun

[hollow vault]

ive heard a few times from the interviewers that they like any project as it shows passion or drive for the work. even if it isnt directly related

[brittle thorn]

I reverse engineered file formats for fun

Made money of that later

[brittle thorn]

This should be emphasized too many just stick to tutorials and kill creative impulses to tick a skill checkbox

[hollow vault]

100%

I don't have a degree in comp sci so i felt it was even more important for me to have some sort of unique projects to display skills

[brittle thorn]

Yes Same lmao

[spark cobalt]

Samesies

[hollow vault]

and hopefully i can get a job soon that isnt scammy and weird with employment contracts haha

[brittle thorn]

Oh good luck and be careful

[hollow vault]

yeah i will. like i said worst comes to worst i wont sign and keep applying. something will happen eventually

[brittle thorn]

That is good

[dreamy spade]

Do recruiters get paid on a salary? I get notifications that my resume gets viewed late at night and sometimes at 2 A.M.

[spark cobalt]

If they're a recruiter, recruiting for a specific company, yes.

[brittle thorn]

Maybe they are in different timezone

There are also cases when the debugging and coding work is best done outside normal working hours .... think banks and financials

[summer roost]

there's two kinds of recruiters: ones that work for a single company, and are salaried employees of that company, and ones that recruit for many different companies, who are paid a commission for placing someone (usually based on some percentage of the placed employee's first year salary)

[stark phoenix]

Why does HR always frown upon gaps in your resume, should you then just lie instead?

[brittle thorn]

Don't lie

[summer roost]

they don't "frown upon" gaps. They want to know why you had a gap. If you took a break from working to care for your sick wife, they don't care. If you took a break from working to spend 2 years in prison for money laundering, they care.

[brittle thorn]

Show perhaps you done stuff to grow while you are in a gap year

[stark phoenix]

What if you just couldn't find a job, they look at it as if you suck!

[stark phoenix]

I'm talking about just a couple of months.

[summer roost]

yes, probably. Someone who could get and keep a job is likely a better candidate than someone who couldn't.

[summer roost]

that's not a particularly long time. I wouldn't worry about it.

[brittle thorn]

That's rather extreme given covid and many disruptions

[stark phoenix]

Competing against 100 applicants when there is 1 position, isn't about who can or can't

[summer roost]

if you're unemployed for a few months between jobs, it just looks like you're being picky, or taking a break. If you're unemployed for a few years between jobs, it becomes a much bigger question.

[brittle thorn]

Maybe go to school or take an apprenticeship if it's that crowded or develop some skill to set you apart

Worse case do your own startup bet on yourself

[dreamy spade]

And this is why I hate gatekeepers.

I'm trying my very best to penetrate into the tech industry. I'm a fresh graduate and the more time I'm not able to land a job, the less companies are going to call me for an interview. I hate it.

[summer roost]

This isn't "gatekeeping". Someone who works as a carpenter is more likely to be good at carpentry than someone who doesn't, on average when considering dozens or hundreds of applicants for a position

[brittle thorn]

Try to network and find a job that bypass the gatekeepers then

[dreamy spade]

The recruiting specialists and hiring managers are definitely the gatekeepers. They have the key to let you inside the tech industry and they dictate who gets hired.

[stark phoenix]

Your best bet as a Junior is to start a project and document and showcase it, this will definitely help you land a job.

[brittle thorn]

Look for internships

[summer roost]

do you think they should choose randomly from among the candidates?

[dreamy spade]

No.

[summer roost]

so then... I guess I don't see why you say "I hate gatekeepers", if you acknowledge that making educated guesses about which candidate is the best fit for the job is a good thing for those hiring managers to do.

why hate them for doing the right thing?

[brittle thorn]

Maybe go for a job that has better chances to get hired for or work on your hard and soft skills

[spark cobalt]

How are they gatekeeping? They want the best candidate. Just be that candidate

[dreamy spade]

Because I'm fresh out of college, it's the only way to make money if I get inside. It's literally the perfect time for them to select me for an interview, I have multiple projects on my GitHub. I can't work for myself and pay myself.

[spark cobalt]

I'm fresh out of high school and I'm working as a SWE right now...

[brittle thorn]

See

[spark cobalt]

This is a game. Play by the rules of the game and you will succeed.

There are clear cut strategies for improving your chances over other candidates

[summer roost]

what was your major? How was your GPA? Any internships? What work experience have you had? How many jobs have you applied to? Do you get callbacks at all? If yes, what's the furthest step in the process that you reach?

[brittle thorn]

The attitude could also be a turn off nobody is entitled to a job

Unless they are really really good

[spark cobalt]

I can assure you I've been rejected more than 10 times more than you have. I still get rejection emails now and I haven't applied for more than 4 months.

All I did was continue, optimize my strategy, keep improving.

[dreamy spade]

Good for you. Unfortunately, for me most of these job postings I see require applicants to have a degree. I'm giving them what they ask for...and still not haven't got picked for interviews recently.

[brittle thorn]

But nobody wants to work with someone with so much hate

So soft skills too

[spark cobalt]

Every interview, write down everything that happened there. Look at what I said and figure out how I can cut down on a few words, or use a better language. There's millions of ways to improve. Soft, hard, everything.

[dreamy spade]

This is why nobody reveals their true self in business. You camouflage it.

[summer roost]

no, most people just aren't hateful 😄

[spark cobalt]

No one has to reveal their true self to know everyone wants the best candidate, or everyone wants to make the most money, or hire someone that'll give them the biggest bang for their buck.

[brittle thorn]

Lmao this is dark side stuff

[brittle thorn]

Yep

[spark cobalt]

In a money incentivized market, unless you're talking about Elon Musk, it is predictable what other people want.

[brittle thorn]

Eventually people discover the deception and you lose

Long term it's best to be authentic

[spark cobalt]

Treat this as a game. The recruiter wants to work with someone that'll give them the best bang for their buck, so they'll do certain strategies in choosing which person will give that to them. What's stopping you from filling in their checklist?

You have your priorities and your checklists, but the recruiter also has a checklist to keep their job and keep their family fed.

If you don't know, talk to local recruiters, go to meetups and talk to recruiters there, ask them what they're looking for. Or hell, reach out to some of them on LinkedIn

[dreamy spade]

what was your major? How was your GPA?

Computer Programmer. I don't know my GPA yet.

Any internships?

I got an interview for one. I didn't pass it.

What work experience have you had?

How many jobs have you applied to?

Had to be around 400 jobs at this point since May of 2022.

Do you get callbacks at all?

One interview by a human and another by an A.I.

If yes, what's the furthest step in the process that you reach?

I never got past the first stage interviews.

[spark cobalt]

Have you ever noted down what happened in those first stage interviews? Have you ever got your resume reviewed by people?

[summer roost]

were your grades mostly A's, mostly B's, mostly C's?

[dreamy spade]

All I have is academic experience which is one of the reason why I hated college. Academic experience doesn't equate to work experience. This is why I wished my program was built like a trade school. I have no idea what the work experience is like. It's one of those "I need experience to get first job for experience."

[dreamy spade]

Yes two friends.

[spark cobalt]

Ok but literally everyone has had to go through that. Like, everyone.

[brittle thorn]

The undifferentiated degree

[dreamy spade]

My GPA is guaranteed above 2.0. I don't know yet. I'm not speculating.

[spark cobalt]

Have you ever got it reviewed by a third party? By a hiring manager? By people that actually look at resumes everyday?

[summer roost]

so you definitely didn't get more D's and F's than B's and A's. That's a really low bar.

[brittle thorn]

There is also grade inflation

[dreamy spade]

I booked an interview preparation at the career services at my college for next week.

[summer roost]

indeed - you might want to anonymize your resume and post it here to ask for some advice. You might also want to get some advice about the sorts of positions you're applying to.

[brittle thorn]

The institution you graduated from may matter moar

[dreamy spade]

Again Sir. I'm not speculating.

[summer roost]

it matters a bit, but unless it's known to be a bottom-of-the-barrel school, it probably doesn't matter too much.

[spark cobalt]

You need to abuse every opportunity you get. It sounds like you spent a lot of your college years letting opportunities slip (which isn't like abnormal or anything, but now you know where it went wrong).

I'm sure you're aware of at least dozens of ways to improve, just start working on them. If you don't know, there's online communities to help like this one, your professors/college resources, you can go to local conferences as well.

[brittle thorn]

I'd say it's typical of most having attended uni

[spark cobalt]

Most of my improvements for job hunting came from talking to this guy for like 6 hours from one of the dev meetups I went to. Was a President of some recruiting company

[brittle thorn]

Wise

[spark cobalt]

If you're in the bay area, you can talk to him. He goes to this meetup called Startup to IPO that happens everyday. Really smart dude. Very knowledgeable of economics, the market, very well rounded guy. Knows his shit. His name is Chuck.

[brittle thorn]

Attend meet-ups I got a few side gigs there related to DS

Do freelance work or part-time

Anything other than being negative

[brittle thorn]

Lmao I wish I was in Bay Area

[spark cobalt]

So many smart people here from all sorts of backgrounds. It's really nice

[dreamy spade]

The misery is making me become more cutthroat and vicious towards my opponents who are also trying to get that same job. Time is leaking before me. Because I know that more time I spend finding a job, the less the gatekeepers don't want to hire me; I see companies wanting fresh graduates and if I shrivel up like raisin, gatekeepers don't want me even more.

[brittle thorn]

Attend meetups and network

[spark cobalt]

Again, they're not gatekeepers. They're just doing their job. Otherwise they wouldn't be there.

[summer roost]

in addition to the other suggestions above about various resources that you can make use of to try to make yourself more attractive to employers, you might want to consider therapy. It's sounding like you've got some anger issues.

[spark cobalt]

If you think that you won't get a job soon, then spend time building up a resume that no new grad can compete with. You can consider moving back to your parent's for a while if money is an issue.

[maiden lava]

Can i get an programming job at 16 without an Course or smth

[spark cobalt]

You need to stop victimizing yourself. I've applied to 4000 jobs, and got denied to nearly all of them. I still play the game and still improve my odds every chance I get.

[summer roost]

it's very unlikely.

[spark cobalt]

This is all a game, with very very precise rules. Play by the rules of the game.

[brittle thorn]

I think some people take rejection personally

It's not shake it off learn to control emotions

[spark cobalt]

I approached applying as a science lol. First 1000 or so applications was purely to test the waters and see how many callbacks I get (way before I moved to San Jose). And then from those odds, I know what to expect given x amount of applications.

[summer roost]

I can promise you that if you go into an in-person interview with an attitude that you hate the people sitting across the table from you because they're blocking you from getting the job you want, they're gonna pick up on that vibe, and the interview won't go well for you.

[dreamy spade]

You need to stop victimizing yourself.

I really try not to. I see it more as getting turned into a victim by the competitors. It's survival of fittest; Only the best win. There can only be one winner per role. I spent so much money to go to college only to be empty handed. It's devastating. It's real cutthroat out here.

[spark cobalt]

From my eyes, you're only victim to yourself.

[stark phoenix]

I don't think this is the correct attitude to go about it. This attitude is probably what is holding you back!

[dreamy spade]

Well if there's 1 position and there's 200 applicants, There's only one winner.

[spark cobalt]

And who's fault do you think that is?

[stark phoenix]

That is true, but you keep going and on to the next. For every 50 submissions you will probably get 5 callbacks and for those callbacks you will probably move forward with 1 of them.

[brave bridge]

illuminati 💀 📐 ?

[spark cobalt]

I just wanna let you know why some of us think why what you're saying is just like bothering. People like me and tanuki without a degree had much higher walls to push through than you.

[brittle thorn]

Then do something to improve the odds

[spark cobalt]

It's not only just getting denied over 3000 times. But also having people around me not believing in my plan, going a path that few people wanted to reach their hands out to help me. Getting tossed to live on my own like immediately out of high school with no financial help from parents. The list goes on...

I just do not see why you're complaining. You're in a much better position than a huge portion of job hunters by just having a CS degree.

[summer roost]

The other candidates are just people like you, who also want a job, who have similar education stories to you, who got the same degree as you, etc, etc.

[spark cobalt]

^. What gave them the role and not you? Have you looked into that?

[summer roost]

Did you ever have any job, btw? Even fast food or retail or something? If so, make sure that's listed on your resume.

[stark phoenix]

Do realize that in an interview its not just the company that is assessing you its also you that is assessing the company. You should be checking if you like the professionalism they conduct the interview process in, if you like the communication and attitude. All of this shows you what you will be dealing with on a day to day bases.

[true harness]

you recently graduated but you don't know your GPA? also, the school lets you use their resources when you're not a student? something doesn't add up

[dreamy spade]

My resume would two have pages and that's not ideal. I already have my work history on my LinkedIn and I have my LinkedIn profile included in my Resume. Yes I have had other jobs before.

[summer roost]

being able to use a campus career center shortly after graduating isn't that weird, honestly. The school looks better if they can cite a higher percentage of their graduates with jobs, so they do have a motivation to help alums land jobs.

[spark cobalt]

You should send an anonymized resume for review, so we have a better idea of your situation, and see how it can be improved.

[true harness]

that makes sense. not knowing GPA this long after graduating is definitely weird though

[spark cobalt]

Free resume consultation online.

[true harness]

unless they graduated a few weeks ago? I assumed summer graduation date

[dreamy spade]

you recently graduated but you don't know your GPA?

My transcript is not emailed to me yet.

[summer roost]

The most important facts about you are your degree (and GPA if it's good), and your previous work experience. If you've got other stuff on your resume but don't have your previous work experience, that strongly suggests you're making poor content decisions.

[leaden jasper]

As a note from someone who has sat in on some interviews and contributed to the go/no-go decision to hire someone, you want to give the recruiters and interviewers a reason to pick you. Have a great attitude, have good stuff on your resume, prep for their questions.

Don't treat it like a competition against others. It's really you vying for their attention. You want to make it easy for them to say yes to you.

[leaden jasper]

You should still roughly know your grades and the range your GPA should be in. You can calculate it yourself.

[summer roost]

in particular, a resume is an advertisement, where the product is you. You need to make sure that the facts about yourself that you're highlighting on the resume are the facts that employers will find most compelling.

[spark cobalt]

Just note, if you're an asshole, pretty much everyone is very happy to pick someone that's less technically qualified, but willing to learn and grow and has a good attitude.

An asshole can tank a team much more than someone that's a bit less technically qualified.

[dreamy spade]

Work History is on LinkedIn.

[pine sleet]

I've heard it said that you can teach someone to code - you can't teach them to be a better person

[summer roost]

You said that. I promise that every hiring manager is assuming that you do not have any work experience if your resume does not list any work experience. No one is going to check your LinkedIn to see if it includes stuff that you forgot to put on your resume.

[leaden jasper]

I don't check someone's LinkedIn unless I'm really stuck between 2 people and looking for a differentiator. Or unless it's the final stages and I'm doing a sanity check. Don't rely on LinkedIn being a supplement to your resume.

[spark cobalt]

Your problem is getting the initial callback and passing it. Especially since every junior role has hundreds of applicants, it's unreasonable to expect a recruiter to go through every single LinkedIn. It's not time efficient.

Sell the best parts of yourself on the thing you know 100% the recruiter or hiring manager is going to read. Why leave it to chance?

[dreamy spade]

No one is going to check your LinkedIn to see if it includes stuff that you forgot to put on your resume.

I also use LinkedIn to apply for jobs.

[summer roost]

I doubt that changes anything. I'd assume the output of a LinkedIn job application is still an entry in an applicant tracking system, auto-populated with information scraped from the resume you provide.

[leaden jasper]

I still don't look at their LinkedIn. I look at the resume they submit.

[spark cobalt]

LinkedIn just crowdsources a lot of online applications together. For the quick apply stuff, you still put in your resume.

[leaden jasper]

I posted a job on LinkedIn and was responsible for the initial down selection of people. If there wasn't a PDF resume or anything else eye catching, then I didn't have the time.

[summer roost]

for someone who just graduated college with no tech experience, your resume should be maybe 1/8th contact info, 1/4 education history, 1/8th "skills", and then the remaining 50% should be prior work experience and projects. If you're not highlighting your prior work experience anywhere in that remaining 50%, you're putting the wrong stuff on your resume, and that would definitely be hurting you.

[dreamy spade]

If I worked as a waiter and a dishwasher and put it on my resume when I'm trying to apply for a tech company sounds rather odd to me. I'd would just rather put my linkedIn profile on my resume.

[true harness]

why not both

[dreamy spade]

I apply for a web developer job but put in skills that I can dishwash on my resume...

[summer roost]

no, it absolutely belongs on your resume. By not putting it, you're giving people the impression that you've coasted through the last 22 years of your life with someone else paying for all of your needs, and without ever needing to show up some place on time every day.

[true harness]

any job shows that you can arrive to work and do what you're told on time

[spark cobalt]

I put it on mine

[summer roost]

obviously the skills section should be technical skills, but the work experience section should be any job. You should even have a story ready for the interviewer about the skills that you learned from dishwashing and how they apply to high stress situations and better prepare you to be a programmer.

as someone said above, soft skills are harder to teach than hard skills, and every job builds soft skills.

[true harness]

especially anything involving customers 😔

[summer roost]

I literally don't think I've had a job in my life that was as hard as my high school fast food job.

[spark cobalt]

same

[true harness]

yeah, out of all my jobs, fast food is the worst (I have only had 1 job)

[leaden jasper]

I taught a rock climbing summer camp for 6-10 year olds. My friend who did that with me and a fast food job said that it almost compares to fast food on a really good day.

[spark cobalt]

Used to work at Red Lobster in the back, and this was just when the indoor mask thing was lifted. And we were understaffed by 2x the people. Holy shit when Mothers Day came around, that was something fucking else

I don't think I'll ever do any shift that was as difficult as that. I was alone at dishes for the whole fucking restaurant.

Not tryna flex or anything, but I was kind of a god tier dishwasher

[summer roost]

@dreamy spade I assume that the other 50% of your 1-page resume is mostly filled with projects right now? I can tell you with absolute certainty that prior work experience gives employers a stronger signal about your employability than the projects you're describing do. Unless your projects are extremely impressive (like, a well-known Python library that lots of people use, or a published paper with a decent number of citations, or something), they're probably very similar to a lot of other people's projects, just demonstrating basic competency with some skill. That's nice and useful, but employers are much more likely to care about your work experience than whatever libraries you've learned. It's much easier to teach a new hire a library than it is to teach them the soft skills that come from a few years of work experience (time management, conflict management, dealing with stress, maintaining quality under pressure, etc)

[spark cobalt]

Reminder: You have a degree. Anyone looking at your resume knows you know a certain list of things. Your recruiter will know more about your technical capabilities from the degree than from projects (recruiters are likely not technical people and won't be able to separate from one project to another.)

Degrees OP. Someone give me theirs

[brittle thorn]

Honorary someday

Long shot thou

[pine sleet]

Would you say a degree is the single most important thing?

[spark cobalt]

Maybe do some Econ at Chicago. But that's the only thing on my mind

[pine sleet]

(From what y'all have been saying this is the assumption I am drawing, however it may be incorrect)

[spark cobalt]

From someone without a degree, I've had to probably apply to like 10x more places to get the same opportunities as someone with a degree. (4000 for 10 callbacks). Whereas, maybe a slightly worse project or something wouldn't have that level of disparity.

[dreamy spade]

I assume that the other 50% of your 1-page resume is mostly filled with projects right now?

It's my education history. I have two degrees and I have listed my expertise for both fields.

It's interesting on what you guys are saying to me because I am receiving the opposite advice from you guys than what the career services advisor said to me about my resume when I booked an appointment to see how I can improve it.

[pine sleet]

Ah, so definitely a major factor then

[spark cobalt]

Especially for getting into the field, definitely one of the biggest. It's the only reliable thing an employer can go off of. When you have experience things (should) get easier.

[pine sleet]

The only thing I'm worried about is what godly mentioned - I'll have no work experience once I'm out of college, having practically "coasted" until then

[summer roost]

It's the single thing that is most helpful for landing an entry level position.

[spark cobalt]

You don't plan to do internships?

[pine sleet]

Does that still count?

[summer roost]

Yes, absolutely!

[pine sleet]

Ah great, I'm planning on doing a bunch of those in Uni

[summer roost]

Dishwashing is good, tech internships are better 😄

[brittle thorn]

Are the two degrees relevant what you are applying for is? Is it two BS or a BS and MS?

[spark cobalt]

Person having done collaborative tech work within a company is huge, whether that's an internship or fulltime.

[summer roost]

(dishwashing would still help for landing that first internship, though!)

[pine sleet]

My parents said they'd rather have me focus on studies than try to get a job during college - so a internship is the next best thing for me

[spark cobalt]

Can always do like a summer internship and stay busy.

[pine sleet]

But those first jobs or internships are gonna be the hardest for me

[summer roost]

I'm genuinely shocked that a career advisor would have advised you to totally omit work experience from your resume. That's really weird advice.

[pine sleet]

Probably will do a lot of that too 🙂
I need to overcompensate for a lack of any other type of "official" experience haha

[spark cobalt]

You got this！

[pine sleet]

But I suppose we all have to compensate somewhere else to make up for a lack somewhere, eh?

[dreamy spade]

I don't know those abbreviations. 98% of the tech jobs I apply for have nothing to do with my other diploma. Sorry I should I have said diploma to be more specific. I think degrees are four year programs?

[brittle thorn]

I had HR questions my foray into non IT Jobs like teaching HS and chemistry lab work

[brittle thorn]

Ah BS is Bachelors degree MS is Masters

Normally if you get MS you got more credibility

[dreamy spade]

His logic was "If you're applying in the X field, Only put things related to the X field."

[pine sleet]

My other question I had for y'all: would a PhD in something improve my chances of landing a job significantly more than a Masters?
My parents said they'd support either financially so it's more or less up to me now

[brittle thorn]

I heard this somewhere else too

[brittle thorn]

In some fields yes

[spark cobalt]

If your goal is R&D or other more involved niches of the industry, yeah.

[brittle thorn]

Take it if you are interested

[pine sleet]

Ah, then no. I'm planning on just being a network engineer grunt or a sysadmin
I also put Computer Science as a minor so hopefully I can fall back to SWE if need be

[summer roost]

I think that's extremely bad advice, and I'd strongly recommend soliciting more opinions.

[brittle thorn]

I didn't finish my masters only got a bachelor's in Chemistry still got into IT

[pine sleet]

Probably won't need a PhD for that, lol
Maybe much later on if im interested

[spark cobalt]

Majoring in EE?

[brittle thorn]

Youtube gives that bad advice too lmao

[pine sleet]

Yeah

[spark cobalt]

Does anyone know if there's a difference between some college's CE vs UC Berkeley's EECS?

[summer roost]

I don't think either an MS or PhD would be likely to help you land a network engineer or sys admin or dev ops job.

[pine sleet]

What would? (In terms of education)

[spark cobalt]

Our company is computer networks and every role is Masters/PhD required. We only have like 3 bachelors with us. Granted, operations flames the engineer team for being overachievers so dunno, maybe this is abnormal.

[summer roost]

It's really weird to me. For someone trying to switch careers at 40, that advice would lead to them sending a mostly blank resume, instead of one showing everything they've accomplished so far!

[dreamy spade]

🤷 . I'd rather put the other field I graduated in on my resume than my general labour work experience because I value that more.

[brittle thorn]

I agree with this

[summer roost]

That surprises me. Can you be more specific about the type of work? Are we talking designing new network devices, or deploying things purchased from a vendor?

[spark cobalt]

New

[pine sleet]

I feel like I'm thinking too far ahead, lol.
Yet to even get into a college 😅

[summer roost]

Ah, ok. Doesn't surprise me that that would be MS level, but that's not what a typical network engineer does, AFAIU

[true harness]

the marginal utility of another degree is less than having some work experience

[spark cobalt]

It's weird. They require MS for all things, but only like half of the work we do is like new stuff. Like I work on like multi cloud network + devops stuff, which isn't really anything new. So operations might be right, everyone is overachiever.

[brittle thorn]

It's a filter

[spark cobalt]

[scenic hill]

Hi

[summer roost]

If you've sent 400 applications with a resume that didn't list job experience and only got 2 callbacks, you don't have a lot to lose from switching the resume up. Clearly it's not impressing employers as it exists today.

[brave bridge]

guys,
what is general opinion here regarding reapplying to companies you already applied to (didnt get answer / did get rejected / had bad experience) ?

[spark cobalt]

@dreamy spade

Treat this as a science:

• Hypothesis: List prior job experience will return more callbacks.
• Experiment: Apply to 500 jobs and see if your callback rate is higher.
• Conclusion: Keep prior job experience.

If you treat this more as a game, than as people hating you, I think you'll be able to be a lot more level headed in terms of making decisions.

[spark cobalt]

I don't see why not. It's not uncommon for people to apply again and get the job.

[brave bridge]

how the fuck do you write 500 applicationsletters and dont go insane?

[dreamy spade]

It honestly shouldn't be a problem for any recruiter to simply click the hyperlink of my LinkedIn on my Resume if they are serious about wondering if I have work experience. I have my GitHub page as well as my CodeWars page included in my resume. I'm not erasing my accomplishment of acquiring another academic milestone just to add my general labour jobs onto my resume.

[summer roost]

Wait a few months before re-applying to the same position.

[spark cobalt]

I've applied to 4000 jobs. Job applying for a HS grad is a fucking art in its own. Tried a lot of different things and tactics.

[wintry finch]

Guys

[true harness]

it takes time. recruiters don't have a lot of that

[brave bridge]

so you wrote up to 4000 dina4 application letters?

[spark cobalt]

They add up when there's hundreds of applicants. Also codewars doesn't matter.

[true harness]

sure, that's your choice. but it clearly is not working out

[brittle thorn]

Lots of things don't matter if it doesn't make you stand out

[spark cobalt]

I've applied to 4000 jobs. Obviously only wrote a letter to either companies that aligns with what I'm passionate about or things that I had a high chance of getting a callback.

It's more clicking on "Male -> Asian American -> Not Disabled -> I agree" 4000 times than anything.

I just listen to music and grind away

[wintry finch]

H

[true harness]

NOT A VETERAN

[spark cobalt]

[dreamy spade]

That's absolutely ridiculous. It's a single click.

If they are too lazy to click a link then that's probably not a company I should be working for.

[brittle thorn]

Lmao why should they care about race or disability if you can do job

[summer roost]

They're likely looking at this already scraped into an ATS, so there probably isn't a hyperlink at all. If there is, though, they're definitely not going to click it to find things to convince them to hire you if the rest of your resume didn't grab them. You've had a few people who are involved in hiring people tell you that over the course of this conversation. I've never once checked a candidate's LinkedIn. I've checked GitHub, but never spend more than maybe 2 minutes browsing their GitHub, unless I see something extremely unique that nerdsnipes me.

[true harness]

ok, you can think that. it doesn't change the fact that it's clearly not working for you

[brave bridge]

i write 10 application letters, then i gave up and stay unemployed 💀

[spark cobalt]

It's hundreds of added clicks for a role they direly need to fill. They'll focus on what you prioritized most by putting on your resume as that's the best of you.

[true harness]

government cares. companies must comply with EE laws

[spark cobalt]

https://tenor.com/view/this-is-america-childish-gambino-dancing-gif-12164113

[brittle thorn]

Weird US things

[brave bridge]

imagine working at mcdonalds part time and earning more than fulltime devs somewhere. what a crazy world

[summer roost]

It's definitely gonna be most companies. A resume is an ad that's advertising you. If your ad doesn't grab their interest, they're not gonna start following hyperlinks.

[spark cobalt]

Also, again. Your codewars level doesn't matter. Just remove that and put something more worthwhile

[true harness]

and another thing. you said your resume is 2 pages. they're generally meant to be only 1 page long

[wintry finch]

Pls help me what will be the answer

[spark cobalt]

Try #1035199133436354600 or an off-topic channel.

[brittle thorn]

I had religion asked in job application form I wrote Atheist and didn't hear back from some in this Catholic nation so US isn't alone in being weird

[brave bridge]

is having a picture / sidebarr with listed languages (programming + spoken ones) a thing in the US?

[spark cobalt]

Lots of jobs started asking for sexuality and gender identity. Just put random shit, hope it sticks.

[brittle thorn]

Too much to fill up all irrelevant

[wintry finch]

Bro can you help me in dm

[dreamy spade]

So let me ask you for those who believe I should put my work history that's not revolved about the industry that I am trying to get into in the first place. What does that mean for fresh young graduates who has never worked a day in their life? Do you think they can get hired>

[spark cobalt]

Affirmative action and a-quota-that-totally-doesn't-exist is based when it benefits you

[true harness]

no for picture, but 2 columns are semi popular

[brave bridge]

they are younger, so its more understandable if they never worked

[wintry finch]

Or anybody can help pls just a small doubt pls

[summer roost]

In the US, lots of companies have a blanket policy to throw out any resume that includes a picture.

[true harness]

they wouldn't have it to put

[dreamy spade]

So do you think employers care about the age of applicants or something?

[spark cobalt]

Protection against race and whatnot.

[brave bridge]

100% they do yes

[wintry finch]

Bruh I got it sorry to disturb you bruh

[spark cobalt]

You're young. You're fine. #You'reNotAVictim

[brave bridge]

that was a low blow against aged people 💀

[smoky quest]

They care more about the comp expectations than the age

[summer roost]

It makes them a less attractive candidate than someone who has worked. It's one less attractive fact that they can advertise to sell their services to employers.

[spark cobalt]

They have protection it's fine

[true harness]

only at a certain age I think. and young people don't get any

[spark cobalt]

Yep

[smoky quest]

That's why they will have internships and stuff.
At the end of the day, it's about what parts of your experience/skills/education you can leverage

[brave bridge]

@summer roost @spark cobaltthats actually nice. it should be like that everywhere. its the opposite here.

being 30 with masters and zero work experience / internship --> something might be wrong
being 23 with masters and zero work experience / internship --> no one will care much
being 30 with masters and 1 year work gap --> probably no one will care
edit: wrong tags

[summer roost]

The topic at hand was whether it's valuable to list non-tech work experience like dishwashing on you resume as a fresh college grad. You do a lot of hiring, what's your opinion on that?

[brave bridge]

is that somewhat true?

[brave bridge]

isnt it like: anything is better than nothing pretty much?

[true harness]

as a further clarification, it was dishwashing vs including a second degree that was unrelated

[smoky quest]

As long as you can articulate how it makes you a better candidate, you should put it in. There can be tons of value in terms of non-technical skills such as communication, leadership, etc.

[spark cobalt]

@dreamy spade You have your answer

[brave bridge]

there is no way a degree holds less weight to HR people than dishwashing ?

[spark cobalt]

It doesn't. But we're saying like dishwashing vs like your fucking codewars level, which he has on there. Mostly just saying there's way better things to put on your resume.

[brave bridge]

on that note: should i put in that i was Global Elite in csgo, so my mouseclicks are on point?

[summer roost]

There's definitely room on a resume for both, and also, it depends on the degree

[smoky quest]

Think about it as an equation with multiple parameters. Obviously the weight for the degree will be far greater than dishwashing. But it does not mean that dishwashing exposes skills with zero or negative coefficients

[brave bridge]

ofc not. but in that question it was either or -> so to me degree is somewhat clear choice

[smoky quest]

only a sith deal in absolute

[summer roost]

This is someone's first resume after college. There is no way that it's so full of other stuff that no work experience fits.

[brave bridge]

HR is devil evil sith lords confirmed. they either hire or dont 💀

[summer roost]

Unless the formatting is terrible, at least.

[smoky quest]

technically, it's the engineering manager who makes the decision

HR is just there to support them

[brittle thorn]

What about part time or freelance

[summer roost]

HR usually doesn't even get a vote.

[brave bridge]

they do because they filter out first ?

[summer roost]

Possibly, but if so, that's not a vote - it's application of a blanket policy

[true harness]

honestly I feel like any more discussion without seeing the actual resume is moot

[spark cobalt]

Still waiting for anonymized resume moment. The fact that codewars is still on there makes me think there has to be other problems with it.

[smoky quest]

They will filter out the very obvious ones or based on the instructions of the EM. Most of the filtering is done by the EM

[brave bridge]

filter out dishwashers, people with age > 18, experience less than 30y in all existing frameworks

[summer roost]

HR might have instructions like "this is a senior engineering position, reject anyone without a previous coding job", let's say. But that's not HR making a "decision" to reject, it's them applying a policy provided to them by the people in charge of deciding.

[dreamy spade]

Yes do it. I had an old gamer of mine put that he was a scripter for a GTA: San Andreas online mod server and he's a Software Developer now.

[smoky quest]

They get 3/4 digit applicants. The profiles you describe would rarely go on top unless they have some compelling arguments (ie. portfolio, experience, etc.) on their resume

[summer roost]

Hah, modding games can actually take really impressive engineering work, if they weren't designed to be extended.

[brave bridge]

i h4ck3d warcraft 3 and did the allyourbasearebelongtous hackZ 💀

[summer roost]

Saw a guy whose resume was a playable NES ROM. I'd hire him 😄

[brave bridge]

99,999% would filter out that resume because of form tho
even tho its cool

[summer roost]

Sure. They've either got another resume that they use, or they target that resume very, very specifically

Also, I suspect they weren't hurting for a job.

[brave bridge]

i have like 20/25 AOC competence level in python, should i just apply for python junior dev positions or is it pointless at that skill level?
i want to end up in backend but dont know flask or django --> so i want to tackle either of them next.

or should i wait till i know all of that +SQL. is there some sort of general roadmap for that route?

[summer roost]

"aoc competence level"?

[brave bridge]

advent of code 😆

[smoky quest]

if you are aiming entry level backend jobs, you should reach the level where you could perform entry level backend tasks. That does include writing a simple backend.
See https://roadmap.sh/backend

[summer roost]

20/25 isn't bad, but I'd expect anyone who has completed a data structures and algorithms course to be able to finish 25/25 with a bit of effort (maybe 24, there was one last year that damn near killed me...)

If you want a backend web dev job, data structures and algorithms, some basic networking knowledge (DNS and HTTP, let's say), SQL, and some web framework (Django, Flask) would all be very helpful to know.

[brave bridge]

thats alot of stuff jesus

[spark cobalt]

Don't have to do everything to get hired. But that's the general picture.

[smoky quest]

You don't have to go through all of them. But you should at least be comfortable with 70% of the topics

[summer roost]

Again, there's no magic "this is what you must know". You just need to be better than the other applicants. If you know SQL and the other applicants don't, that might land you the job. If you know redis and the other candidates don't, that might land you the job.

[spark cobalt]

They color code the things they think is important. When you look at it from that lens, it becomes much less.

[smoky quest]

And at the risk of sounding like a broken record, there is a reason a degree takes 3-5 years and not 3-5 weeks

[summer roost]

Yup.

[smoky quest]

A degree covers stuff that isn't even on that roadmap

[spark cobalt]

Broken record. That's how you know recursive is old.

[smoky quest]

experienced

[brave bridge]

so if i know some okayish level of python

i should focus on learning all that other stuff on that roadmap instead of another language that is used for backend like java?

[summer roost]

The hiring managers are trying to find the best candidate for the job out of the pool of applicants. They're weighing a lot of different factors to try to come up with an estimate of who is a better fit for the position. Knowing someone others don't can help. Having previous work in some domain can help. Knowing a language others don't can help. Having a degree when others don't is a huge help. Etc.

[smoky quest]

skills over language.
An engineer can pick up a new language in a matter of days. Picking up a new domain like backend takes far longer and therefore is more valuable

[brave bridge]

i beg to difer, becuase i tried to write something in rust yday 🥴 (edit: but that might be me)

[summer roost]

If you've only learned one language so far, I think I disagree... Learning another one is valuable, since it broadens your skills (and understanding) quite drastically

[smoky quest]

A typical engineer with a cs degree would. That's just the typical expectations

[brave bridge]

idk writing something in java and even c++ was way easier than when i tried it in rust

[smoky quest]

One of my teacher used to push it as far as "one day". But it wouldn't include the frameworks and build systems and stuff

[summer roost]

The return on investment of learning a 5th language to put on your resume is pretty low, but the return on investment of learning 2nd one is pretty high, I'd say.

[brave bridge]

is learning javascript for the sake of making a nice website with portfolio on it worth it? ig not then?

[summer roost]

But if you've already learned the basics of C++ and Java, nevermind me.

[brave bridge]

no neither. just looked into these + rust and wrote something i could compare to python

[smoky quest]

focus on one problem at a time. If your goal is backend, you can continue on python.
Other languages would just be a distraction at this stage

[summer roost]

That's a demonstration of frontend skills, which aren't super relevant for backend roles.

And you really, really shouldn't need JS for a resume (oh wait you said "portfolio" not "resume", nevermind)

[brave bridge]

then how would i demonstrate backend skills?

[summer roost]

Backend projects.

[smoky quest]

One of my backend projects was a distributed database. No need for a frontend.
Another one was a distributed raytracer. Still no need for a frontend.

In the case of webservices, you can get away with APIs 😉

[summer roost]

I love suggesting a toy HTTP server as a backend project. I think it's a cool one that teaches you a lot.

And HTTP 1.0 is pretty easy to implement.

[brave bridge]

should i aim for certificates while going over those things listed in roadmap.sh? (ofc i dont really have money for those)

[summer roost]

No.

[brave bridge]

or are they somewhat irrelevant to HR

[summer roost]

Employers, at least in the US and Western Europe, tend not to care at all about certificates.

[brave bridge]

e.g. only good certificate = the cs degree basically?

[smoky quest]

only a degree would hold value

[brave bridge]

i have one STEM one but it has nothing to do with programming because my university was absolute garbage (imo ofc)

[smoky quest]

it's a fitness metric. The closer, the more relevant

[summer roost]

A STEM degree is much better than no degree, even though it's less useful than a CS degree

[brave bridge]

ye cs degree is not a considerable choice for me unfortunately

[smoky quest]

Note also that unless you are dead set on writing code, there are many tech adjacent jobs. For instance tech writer would be quite relevant for someone with a degree focused more on literature

[brave bridge]

well idk tbh because i never worked writing code. but i hated every second of university, whereas i liked everything i learned while coding so far. idk if thats good enough to make a predicition?

[smoky quest]

The heart has its reasons that reason doesn’t know

[brave bridge]

waht?

[smoky quest]

it's a quote from Blaise Pascal, a philosopher

[brave bridge]

what is it supposed to mean? it doesnt make any sense to me

[inner wren]

Hey @livid scarab!

It looks like you tried to attach file type(s) that we do not allow (.exe). We currently allow the following file types: .gif, .jpg, .jpeg, .mov, .mp4, .mpg, .png, .mp3, .wav, .ogg, .webm, .webp, .flac, .m4a, .csv, .json.

Feel free to ask in #community-meta if you think this is a mistake.

[smoky quest]

From quora:

When Pascal says “The heart itself has its own reason that reason itself cannot understand.” he acknowledges the power of our deep personality related to our choices - and sometimes, even if we understand reasonable arguments, it will take more than this to fully persuade us that this is the truth - very deep inside.

[brave bridge]

its so hard to decide. rechange mind and sticking with the degree and not enjoying the stuff the job essentially is. or changing path because its pretty much now or never (because the older one gets ...)

[smoky quest]

What's your current situation?

[brave bridge]

->bachelor->worked->masters->unemployed(-dishwasher-kind of jobs) because i could not see me working in that field

[smoky quest]

masters in what?
how old are you?
which state/country are you located in?

[summer roost]

Akin to

You cannot reason people out of positions they didn’t reason themselves into.
Except in this case, it's your own desires 🙂

[brave bridge]

when u ask me why i did the masters still: i thought maybe my relation to that field changes, but it didnt

[brave bridge]

can i pm you that, id rather not dox myself that much?

[smoky quest]

that much information shouldn't doxx you, but sure

[smoky quest]

yeah somewhat related 😉

[smoky quest]

• That's surprising that someone in your field hasn't touched more software/cs
• And yeah, in your country/continent, there is an even stronger value on degree

Also for reference, I have a few friends who went back to school for a degree later at 26 and are doing fine.
Given your current masters, you could look at accelerating some of the process. I am totally pulling that out of my ass, but I would investigate joining on the last year of a CS bs/license

It's not like your masters was in social science or history

[spark cobalt]

He's 26 got it

[smoky quest]

I am totally 26

[spark cobalt]

[brave bridge]

i cannot mentally bring myself to attend university again (not in the sense that i would be too lazy) idk how to say it

[spark cobalt]

I also know some people that switched after college and are working in CS. My neighbor majored in Econ, and then 2 years after that he's working as a contractor for Apple. One of my other friends is a data scientist with math major.

[brave bridge]

well it was mostly a scratch on the surface and all of it was matlab so just scripts for data evaluation mostly

[brave bridge]

i mean a math major and data scientist is a nice fit

[spark cobalt]

Yeah fair

Anecdotally, I've seen that it's pretty common to switch without having to go back to school.

[smoky quest]

Why not? You would most likely end up having to put in a similar amount of effort anyway.
Also it's not like you are in a country where school is very expensive.

Trying to join on the last year would also cut out a lot of parts

[brave bridge]

bachelor cs is like 7 semesters here

[smoky quest]

That said, even if you don't go back, you could try to capitalize on your degree

[brave bridge]

and i can maybe scratch 2 of those being aligned because of stuff like math

[smoky quest]

In the EU countries I am familiar with, you don't necessarily have to start things from scratch if you have the right equivalences

[brave bridge]

how so?

[smoky quest]

it's in a technical field with quite a bit of math

[brave bridge]

ye sure, but other than being a lesser valued cs-certificate it does not qualify me in any way for backend (neither would it for frontend)
maybe i could somehow argue for DS (edit: i dont want to go into DS tho)

[smoky quest]

you still have to put in the effort for a portfolio to stand out. And your work history would still bring in questions.
I didn't say it would be easy

[brittle thorn]

That is me lmao Chem Major doing software dev

[brave bridge]

you mean because of the gap? what should i do about that? lying?

[brittle thorn]

Don't lie

[smoky quest]

don't lie. The interviewer sees hundreds of people and would catch you.
Just be honest but be prepared

[brave bridge]

ye it was not meant seriously. but there is not really anything that could make that sound better than it is
saying i hated my job is not really good either

[smoky quest]

It's not a big deal, many people stop working (having kids, taking care of a sick family member, burn out, etc.). But given it stands out, interviewers will want to make sure there aren't any red flags

[brave bridge]

red flags?

[smoky quest]

potential problems

[brave bridge]

like ? behavior wise or what do you mean as potential?

[smoky quest]

yeah, anything that may potentially prove to be someone difficult to work with.
People are weird

[brave bridge]

ye okay. i am more on the okayish to work with side i would say. never had any bad experiences or problems with anyone so i dont worry about that too much

ofc theres people liking people more or less but thats everywhere ig

[smoky quest]

As an interviewer, you talk to a lot of people. And that includes quite a few weirdos sometimes. Or just plain toxic

it's just statistics

[brittle thorn]

Weird ok toxic not..there is good Weird and bad Weird

Like some creatives are Weird

[brave bridge]

so being part of the worser side of statistics:

tldr recommendation. either go cs degree (i 99% wont)
or try to find a job while learning backend roadmap

[smoky quest]

As a rule of thumb, I would probably call eccentric the good weirdos. The bad ones are just weirdos

[brave bridge]

i just want to work. while not feeling im imprisoned in something i hate

[smoky quest]

So imagine an interviewer receiving 1000 applicants. 999 would have a degree, projects and internships. What would compel them to call you?
Walking backward from that, the implication is that your portfolio or experience would be as strong, if not stronger than the other candidates

[brave bridge]

yes but at my point getting all that either way makes me become even older. i will compete disadvantaged no matter what most likely no?

[spark cobalt]

I mean experience working in corporate is experience most new grads don't have. Presuming you're applying to the same roles they aer. Should definitely sell on that. If you did some managing, great, those kinds of things.

[smoky quest]

as long as you are okay having the same salary than a 22 years old CS degree kid and being managed by someone younger than you

[brave bridge]

should i apply for internships while learning so i can put internships+projects on my resume?
or is projects done while internship not counting as projects?

[spark cobalt]

Internships are pretty exclusive to college students in America. Idk about wherever you're at. But yeah projects are definitely expected, exclusive from internships.

[brave bridge]

well internships in us are usually paid as well arent they? usually here not so much

[spark cobalt]

At least for tech, yes.

[brave bridge]

ig. possibly really depends on company here

[brittle thorn]

Ah maybe try to make your life more bearable if you got any job it's better than none don't hate it maybe and try to destress

Much of our prisons are mental

[brave bridge]

thats definitly easier said than done
thats like : you feel bad? just feel better 😆

[brittle thorn]

Try Stoicism

Read Philosophy and maybe be enlightened

Then when you are rested you can work on other issues with less stress

[brave bridge]

i care about salary less than i care about my mental state right now i feel like

[brittle thorn]

The stress just makes it worse imho

[brittle thorn]

Yeah take care of that

[odd mortar]

Anyone aware of any companies that train you in python?

[smoky quest]

bootcamps or schools would

[spark cobalt]

Pretty sure the standard is, if you need to know Python for something at your job, you're expected to learn it by yourself.

[odd mortar]

Like Revature will train you in Java then contract you out for 2yrs

[spark cobalt]

Personally avoided those type of companies when applying to jobs.

[brittle thorn]

Training Bond

[spark cobalt]

Yeah

[brittle thorn]

Best to avoid if you wanna leave early

[spark cobalt]

If you got into a tech role to begin with, it should be easy to learn Python. Since it assumes you already know another language pretty well.

[odd mortar]

Yeah, this self learning isn't working out too well.

[spark cobalt]

Maybe time to go to school

[smoky quest]

if you are in high school or college age, aiming for a CS degree is the path of least resistance with the most opportunities

[odd mortar]

I'm 40 with a b.s in cs but it was a piece of paper. I just wrote papers the whole time. So kind of on my own figuring out the rest.

[brave bridge]

do you have work experience cs related?

[odd mortar]

nope

[brave bridge]

what work experience do you have?

[spark cobalt]

CS College grads shouldn't have an issue with learning Python

[odd mortar]

I worked offshore doing seismic

[brave bridge]

rust easier than python because indentation is too
difficult

[brave bridge]

did u evaluate alot of data and used any programming language/software for that?

[odd mortar]

@spark cobalt you're not being very helpful here...

[spark cobalt]

Yes, I'm just very confused.

[odd mortar]

Yes lots of data... no lang though

[spark cobalt]

Have you learned any programming language while learning CS in college?

Are you saying you touched 0 programming languages? Never programmed ever before?

[brave bridge]

any coding experience in the years after degree till now? like a project / hobbyproject or smth?

[spark cobalt]

Python is generally very easy to learn if you're solid with another general programming language. But if this is your first language, this would make more sense.

[odd mortar]

Correct.... no coding... But I can write a beefy essay on the patriot act 🙂

[brave bridge]

which langauge/s did u touch/learn back when u did the degree?

[spark cobalt]

It's just very hard to believe a CS program involved 0 coding whatsoever. Which is why we're asking you the same question in like 10 different ways.

[brave bridge]

oh i thought he meant he did not touch language after the degree.

[odd mortar]

Understood. Columbia Southern University. I don't recommend. 1 Star.

[spark cobalt]

In general, I wouldn't recommend training bond type companies. Always issues with them that I see online. And generally they want you to know a little bit of programming before going on (had an interview with a similar company.)

If you have a CS degree, you're already in a good position. Really just now you have to pick a niche, build some projects and land some interviews.

[brave bridge]

isnt a "old" cs degree somewhat less lucrative to lets say ML/AI positions?

[brave bridge]

do you know where /doing what u want to end up

[brittle thorn]

This is amazing in a bad way lmao

[analog vessel]

Hi

[odd mortar]

@brittle thorn I say that every night when I'm at work. I don't really care as long as I'm using my degree. But learning python seems like a good step.

[brittle thorn]

Yeah it is I learned Python on my own... I'm a Chem major

[brittle thorn]

Who designed the curriculum lmao

[odd mortar]

Thanks for all the help

[brittle thorn]

Yeah good luck

[spark cobalt]

!resources This is a good start.

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[odd mortar]

I'm currently working on automate the boring stuff. Just figured I'd reach out..

[brave bridge]

thats one of the most commonly recommended one. @spark cobalt i already know some python. would stuff like automate the boring stuff still be worthwhile?

[balmy mural]

Wrong channel, you can use #❓｜how-to-get-help

[wintry finch]

Guysb

[white relic]

Columbia Southern doesn't even have a CS program.

Which makes graduating from there with a bscs... quite a remarkable achievement.

[balmy mural]

They did mention they're 40, so it might have existed at some point?

[brittle thorn]

Could have been discontinued if it is that bad lmao

[white relic]

Not impossible.

[vapid jay]

It's pretty easy to believe that a CS degree involved no "coding," but did involve learning a variety of programming languages and paradigms - especially since I attended a school with precisely that attitude. FWIW, I think this is a completely fine approach to teaching CS.

[white relic]

how do you learn a programming language without actually writing anything in it

[vapid jay]

"Coding" and "writing programs" are distinct skills and practices.

[white relic]

So you're saying you learned to write programs but this is in some sense not "coding"? Or...

[vapid jay]

I feel like the distinction is obvious and neither is objectively better than the other in terms of education.

[white relic]

I on the other hand have no idea what distinction you're trying to draw. How can you say you've learned a programming language and not written a line of code?

[vapid jay]

okay

[spark cobalt]

Yeah but this guy never wrote a single line of code.

[spark cobalt]

So when colleges teach programming languages, it's not surprising to you that they assign 0 homework of actually using those languages?

Even if what you say is true, if you know programming paradigms, there isn't any reason for him to struggle so much in learning Python.

Maybe I'm taking things for granted and education in other areas are really this out of this world (in a bad way.)

[peak torrent]

Good day guys, anyone have a path to have a better approach to calculus I and II?

I'm not good at math. I'm using Khan Academy, but if there is a "route map" for Computer Sciences math. It will be appreciate it. I'm getting my major in U.S.A

[white relic]

What do you mean? Are you taking a college course in calculus and also doing khan academy? Or perhaps you haven't started your major yet and are just getting ready for your first calculus course?

[peak torrent]

I will start with math this summer. I'm using Khan A. to have a better understanding of Calculus.

[brittle thorn]

I haven't heard of this normally there is balance between theory and the practical side like in the real sciences there is lecture and laboratory

So maybe they skip on computer lab for one reason or another

No laboratory is kinda lame

[hearty island]

my internship got renewed… they also talked about paying for a PMP certificate so i can become their project manager

[peak torrent]

what company if dont mind asking

[hearty island]

it’s a small healthcare company in new york

[peak torrent]

wow great dude, congras

[hearty island]

thanks dude

[peak torrent]

I haven't start one yet :/. I should be working on it this summer on my portfolio to get it next year

[hearty island]

i’ve always liked project management so the fact they’d pay for my PMP is a big plus

[peak torrent]

Yeah, I mean it's great. I didn't know they pay for those certifications on interships.

If don't mind asking again. How long have you been doing interships and how many?

[hearty island]

i’ve been doing internships for 2-3 years now, i’ve had 3 including this one

[balmy mural]

Internship -> Project Manager doesn't sound like a normal step to me

[peak torrent]

nah, it is. What is normal in this field?

[peak torrent]

wow, I need to get my step into it. i basically have not experience whatsoever in programming. The only way to get my foot on something is getting a job as IT on my college.

[white relic]

3 internships is kind of a lot

[paper wren]

I know python c++ js

Can i get a job

[delicate bane]

i think the more, the better. since you can use them to figure out what you like vs. dont like

[white relic]

Where are you located in the world? What kind of education do you have?

[paper wren]

Well i don't have a CS degree

[white relic]

yeah, I mean, it's certainly not bad, but more than the average (in my observation)

[paper wren]

Im from India

[near ocean]

What do you have to prove you know python, c++ and js

[peak torrent]

@paper wren if you have experience with scrapping shoot me a dm

[brittle thorn]

It depends is the usual answer

[peak torrent]

I have a small side project willing to pay

[hearty island]

it eez what it eez, gotta get your foot in the door ig

[gritty rivet]

I have no idea about the job market in India, but I would look at job listings and see what's available. If you might qualify, apply. Nobody can tell based on a list of languages you claim to know whether you're job ready or not

[near ocean]

!rule 9 No recruiting in here

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[gritty rivet]

!rules 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[delicate bane]

certificates 😛 /s

[near ocean]

A tale as old as time

[delicate bane]

bruh we had a whole discussion about certs yesterday haha

there are some countries that like their certs apparently. iran and germany are some.

[brittle thorn]

Starbucks gift certificates maybe worth something

[white relic]

at least they're worth what you pay for them

[delicate bane]

i mean

[brittle thorn]

Better than IT certs in some cases lmao

[delicate bane]

lmao even though some IT roles love their certs

[peak torrent]

loooool

[delicate bane]

my cousin's son was a cybersecurity intern and he said the reason he got converted to full-time but not the other interns was bc he was the only one actually aiming for his Security+ cert.

[white relic]

IT/cybersecurity is different than software development, I'd easily believe that.

[delicate bane]

right. i dont disagree

[brittle thorn]

I wasted money on Certified Scrum Certification

[delicate bane]

did you want to be a scrum master at the time?

[brittle thorn]

I rather have Starbucks gift certificates

[uncut cave]

What about LinkedIn Badges?

[brittle thorn]

Ah kinda was in a period when I was on sick leave and Scrum and Agile was hawt...

[delicate bane]

ah gotcha. my friend got a software dev job after graduation but she performed poorly so they pushed her into a scrum role

now she just switched jobs to a new company doing devops. much happier lol.

[brittle thorn]

Also abused the free certs in the defunct Microsoft Virtual Academy..
So many .. Starbucks gift certificate still better

I was a top ten in my country for that certificate mill

MS offered a jacket never got it

I want my jacket...Starbucks Certificate better at least I get a tasty coffee

[hearty island]

all ik is that a pmp certificate offers a 32% increase in salary

[gritty rivet]

I believe that... certs are a joke for developer roles but the PMP does seem to be respected for project management

[hearty island]

yep

if this company offers to pay for it then it’s a huge boost for my career

[pseudo bone]

Could someone tell me how to connect two vga monitors with my laptop? I have hdmi type c and usb port. I would really like a device that uses only one port on my laptop and then splits into two wires for monitor .

[near ocean]

That is not a career related topic #ot1-perplexing-regexing

[true wigeon]

yo i'm a new programmer nice to meet you guys

[pastel delta]

any tips on getting part-time online internship while in college/beginning learning?

[peak torrent]

There is a bunch small companies that hire you as intern, but you have to have some background in the fild. Like projects

Most of them that I have try it there are out of states

[white relic]

Here in the US, internships are not common for students before about their sophomore year (2nd year of a 4 year degree program).

Many university students get part-time jobs working for the university. I had one in the IT department.

[peak torrent]

how is it?

I was thinking to do the same thing. Like getting about 20hrs

[white relic]

It worked out for me. I wrote and maintained a bunch of Perl scripts and learned to like licorice

I think I probably did about 12 hours a week? 20 would have been hard to sustain with my course load

[peak torrent]

wow that would be nice. 12 hrs for me is great. How many classes are you taking?

[pastel delta]

is that something u asked ur cs teacher about

[peak torrent]

did you get any financial incentives ? like scholarship or discount on the class cost?

[white relic]

I've been out of university for a while, I think the semester I first worked in IT I had 17 hours of courses.

[white relic]

No, I basically just walked in to the IT department and asked if they were looking for student workers.
I might have sent an email first.

[white relic]

I was paid $9/hour, iirc. Slightly above minimum wage at the time

[peak torrent]

god damn

[pastel delta]

that's not alot. but how do u think it landed u a job aftewrads? if at all

[white relic]

Hmm... well, you never know really what really helped you get the job, I guess

[peak torrent]

at least

did you get a recommendation letter?

[white relic]

not as such, no, but I would have had one if had asked.

IMO, beyond simply having something on your resume to show off that you've done stuff before, it's more about having a range of experiences that you can talk about in an interview.

Perl wasn't really relevant to my first real job, but experience dealing with vendors and superiors in an office setting was.

[spark cobalt]

Bruh we got a storm warning and no one's here now lol. There wasn't a storm to begin with.

[white relic]

it also helped me get an internship later which might have had more of an effect on my first real job.

[pastel delta]

yeah that makes sense. i think right now im falling into the trap of trying to find these cookie cutter answers of 'how to get my dream job roadmap' but it really is more complicated than that

i think im gonna try to get an internship, but not gonna have it my end-all be all

[peak torrent]

That's great. I mean also I guess there is not so many candidates on my college to IT department

[white relic]

One nice thing about working for your college is that they're generally incentivized to work around your class schedule, and understand that your education is of primary importance.

[spark cobalt]

The thing is your dream job is like 99% dependent to you. I found that going to networking events or talking with other engineers give me a way better idea of what I want to do.

Once you know precisely what you want to do, getting a roadmap is just collecting data points from others that are at the goal you're trying to reach.

People are more willing to help than you think. Just have to reach out.

[peak torrent]

Hey thanks man for sharing your journey! I appreciate that

[peak torrent]

like hacktathons ?

[spark cobalt]

No. Like going to Dev meetups. I'm sure hackathons are great too, but never been to one.

[peak torrent]

I will take a look into that. I'm located in North Fl. There is not that many. I know there is one monthly meetup for python programmers, but I don't know I don't even have a job related to programming

I guess I can go and try to have fun time with them lol

[spark cobalt]

Pretty much always good to network. You never know when you'll meet your next business partner, or your next significant other, or whomever! Good networking will come and help you in the future.

[spark cobalt]

Yeah it's always fun. Everyone's trying to have a good time.

[gritty rivet]

That's great... there used to be one in my area but it went dormant before I could make it. I would definitely check it out if I could.

[delicate bane]

same here. but the new city im moving to should have a number of meetups in the area. im already going to a conference there soon if everything works out

🤞

[dreamy spade]

Were you not frustrated?

[spark cobalt]

No. Why should I be?

It's what I signed up for. I came into this knowing the consequences. I did my research.

These 4000 applications of experimenting different resumes will help me a lot in the future. Had over 30 iterations of my resume through this period.

[onyx hemlock]

I applied to over 1000 jobs before I got my first one. it was definately frustrating for me.

I had to do more then just apply in the end

[spark cobalt]

There's no reason to be frustrated imo. It's all a game, everything's bounded within a certain set of rules, there's something I lacked and I did everything in my power to compensate for it

[onyx hemlock]

Investing in your self to change your experiences is the key for sure

though it's not always easy to see and live objectively

[spark cobalt]

If you had to apply 10x more than a college grad to get the same amount of opportunities, then that's just what you have to do.

Everyone's different and requires different number of applications given their situation

Maybe realities disappointing, but hey it's at least honest 🙂

[onyx hemlock]

The first 1000 applications I submitted were all trash, lol. It wasn't until I got frustrated with this that I changed my approach.

[spark cobalt]

Unfortunately some people just stay frustrated and never change

Keezy and like a group of other people were really trying their best to tell Keezy how to improve, to send their resume, and even then he still refused to change and place the blame on everyone else, saying that recruiters are gatekeeping roles from specifically him

Everyone's different. I treated my application process as a science. Try something, experiment with 500 applications, get to some conclusion.

If I'm gonna be applying a shit ton anyways, might as well get what works best for my situation.

[onyx hemlock]

For sure. It is easy to shift the blame.

Did you find any good tacticts?

[spark cobalt]

Just knowing what is most important or valuable to an employer given my situation of not having a CS degree (or any degree).

Not exactly a lot of reference to go off of for self taught.

Keezy had thousands upon thousands of references but still had like CodeWars on his resume which was interesting to say the least.

[onyx hemlock]

I was in a similar boat with no degree. I made a cool app, which influenced a friend of mine who was in the industry to write a good recommendation for me, which ultimately got me a job.

I definitely put in the work and did the networking, but it feels like I got lucky too. Although luck is pretty easy to hack

[spark cobalt]

If a lottery has 1000 available tickets, just buy all 1000 tickets.

[spark cobalt]

I feel the same. But then I look back and realize I did a fuckton of work. It was way more than just 4000 applications. Also walking into companies, going to bunch of dev meetups, etc. Job hunting was quite literally harder than self teaching programming for me. It's a fucking art for non degree people.

I've been able to practice my elevator pitch like to at least 30 people before I ever got my first interview.

[onyx hemlock]

but now that I won the lotto I have to work on shitty web apps all day 🙃

[spark cobalt]

Everything's just increasing the percentages bit by bit

[onyx hemlock]

That sounds like a lot. I worked with a guy who came up through contracting gigs, that sounded rough too

[spark cobalt]

Hmm I do full stack/DevOps too. But idk I find it really fun cuz I'm always learning

[spark cobalt]

Oo did you switch careers? Or do it right out of HS

[onyx hemlock]

I feel like platform engineering is just a new buzzword to make devs handle cicd again, lol

[onyx hemlock]

Dropped out of college a couple times, became a landscaper, got fired, then did a career accelerator that eventually led to getting a job.

[spark cobalt]

Ah nicenice. Super fun to see all kinds of backgrounds in this industry

[buoyant seal]

Web apps are cool. We work with best... OS for development, Linux. (Most Dev friendly!)
While other devs struggle in Windows, or in hellspawns MacOS/IoS

[spark cobalt]

[onyx hemlock]

oof don't get me started on having to work on a mac

[spark cobalt]

Forced to be MacOS, born to shit

[onyx hemlock]

My first team had a tech lead that was a couple years younger then me, but freaking amazing at coding and communication. The most experienced person was in his late 50s probably and had been in the industry like the whole time, staying up to date with each new technology. It was amazing seeing him use so much knowledge to solve problems. It was very cool seeing such talent from two different perspectives.

[spark cobalt]

I hope I can be that young dude in the future

[onyx hemlock]

I am excited to be that old dude someday though. Old people just have more potential.

[spark cobalt]

I think you mean ability, not potential

[buoyant seal]

Young people have more potential and energy 😄
And if u a young expert, then u have money early enough for them to be useful because u have energy 😉

Also young expert can be even more monsterous in knowledge since he learned same stuff earlier than old dude

[onyx hemlock]

meh, do some squats and push ups and become a vegitarian and you'll be kicking young butt forever]

[spark cobalt]

Built Different 😤

[onyx hemlock]

To be fair, the younger tech lead on my first team probably was better then the old dude due to shear tenacity.

[spark cobalt]

Ok time to go home, I'm sitting in my car like a dumbass

[onyx hemlock]

Thanks for the distraction, back to my broken ci pipeline for me 😦

[spark cobalt]

[onyx hemlock]

I'll just push again and it will work this time 🤞

[buoyant seal]

That is why I love
https://taskfile.dev/
Let's write local executable pipeline workflows inserted into clouds xD

[onyx hemlock]

It looks similar to other cicd yaml languages, but is more light weight?

I have been musing about a visual programming language for cicd....But that idea might just be trash, lol. Pipelines can get pretty complicated.

Our build pipeline is kinda flimsy (it was built before my time) and now it will take a lot of work to untangle.

I don't think cicd can be perscriptive since projects are all so different, but it would be nice seeing frameworks that can more easily point people towards best practices

[buoyant seal]

the point that it is fully local executable. and kind of makefile alternative.
So as any other makefile, it is easy to insert into any other CI tool to run xD

[stable elbow]

I think design matters less than content. How you sell your achievements and personality. That said there was a good one if I can find it

[buoyant seal]

https://github.com/jakegut/resume most awesome design from dev perspective. (because it is cv as a code) (hello LaTeX)

[onyx hemlock]

^^ I agree. I got some good advice once that the description you put for past experiences should list what you did along with what impact your actions made. You need to sell yourself as a doer and problem solver.

[stable elbow]

Oh hey darkwind. That's what I used for one of my old resumes

There were some issues with parsing it through the ATS though

[buoyant seal]

xD and that what i plan to use only for next resume. Too late discovered.

[buoyant seal]

there should not be problems though it should be compilable to text readable pdf, which is enough

[stable elbow]

You would think

[buoyant seal]

u a at dev server. what advice else did you expect to get xD although i would say this resume builder is awesome for any person...
...question is in only can u learn how to wield LaTeX 😆 (XeLaTeX looks easy friendly btw)

[stable elbow]

That said, I do think if you're new (including me) skills should go on top if you don't have much experience. So it's the first thing the hr person sees while scanning

[spark cobalt]

Probably the only thing an HR person can understand other than degree. Just a bunch of keywords.

[brittle thorn]

It's mechanical ....almost like a machine not a human lmao

[delicate bane]

reminds me of this product engineering vs. platform engineering meme

[near ocean]

Just stop...
Copilot isnt putting anyone out of a job

[leaden jasper]

@vapid jay Have you worked as a software developer?

[gilded valley]

If anything, copilot is creating jobs

[white relic]

it doesn't attend meetings, it doesn't understand requirements, it doesn't reason about errors, it doesn't train new people, it can't defend its decisions...

[gilded valley]

Just think of all the clickbait careers that have been launched through pearl clutching clickbait!

[leaden jasper]

So you've worked at a game studio or with other professional software developers?

[white relic]

many of us have jobs that involve more than simply generating syntactically correct code

but, if that's your job, yeah, it might be in peril

"artificial intelligence will increase unemployment" is a far cry from "github copilot will kill software jobs"

lol. ok then.

[brave bridge]

REDACTED BY GPT-3

[white relic]

when the robot revolution comes maybe you'll be spared

[brave bridge]

REDACTED BY GPT-3

[white relic]

everybody needs a dream

[brittle thorn]

Well do you live to work or work to live? I think the value of a human goes beyond economic value

[brave bridge]

modernization of manufacturing did not reduce the population of the world

[brittle thorn]

Ideally get post scarcity economics once the robots take over..
Code for fun

[brittle thorn]

More dreams are needed some have stopped doing it

This is not good...

They are people too

[gilded valley]

This conversation is not remotely relevant to careers. Try #ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval

[brittle thorn]

I think it's toxic too

Where are mods

[gilded valley]

<@&831776746206265384>

[ivory sluice]

!cban 1058501756952248480 troll

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @torpid belfry permanently.

[light jetty]

o

[delicate bane]

thanks.

[brittle thorn]

Nao very chill..

It's copilot....like an aid.... if they called it autopilot I be more worried

[summer roost]

"full self coding"

[brittle thorn]

Lmao