career-advice

[brittle thorn]

2 to 3 per startup still discussing stuff some coding

Be careful with cofounders

One of my previous startups did succeed (my idea) but broke with cofounder since he told me to fake data in my lab day job

So I know I have ideas that have scaled

Arduino based robotics kit that sold cheaper than Lego mindstorm and is Lego compatible

I wrote whitepaper for it

I got other Ideas lmao

It's OK I don't work with them I value integrity

Next one I got cofounder on LinkedIn was former Telco exec...seem legit...idea legit a doctors social network for our country but couldn't reimburse domain and email ..
Lmao..turned out he was scummy too

But I learned about Founders Agreement and such and met with investors

Not a loss if you learn

More people should do startups if they can I could since I saved

If others can succeed why not you

[balmy mural]

Generally you have to walk them through your takehome solution as a follow up. If you let someone else do it for you, they'll see you have no idea what you're talking about in the followup

[meager vapor]

i've been using codeium recently since it is free and i haven't found it to be any worse than copilot 🤷

[graceful wagon]

Does anyone here do resume reviews

[true harness]

sure. just send it here

[zealous topaz]

during code interview, if you use 3rd library to do what interviewer asked to do (using any import), in general, will they ask you to do it again in plain python, or will they kick you out of interview, or will they take it?

[ivory talon]

depends on the task
if it's a data-related position and something you should use numpy for, it's more likely for them to kick you for not using it than for using it

[dense mesa]

Anonymise and send here

[near ocean]

Youre not going to get kicked out of anything
They'll just tell you to use X or not use X
Most likely they'll stop you immediately after they see you import stuff and suggest you use another way

[arctic plover]

which is the language which will blow up in the future for AI

[vapid jay]

hey, can someone help me? im trying to install a py module but it isnt working (pip install seleniumwebdriver) can someone try and tell me if it works? for me it's stuck on installing

[white relic]

For a job application I once had a take home project in an area I hadn't practiced a lot. They said to spend no more than 3 hours on it and to use only basic libraries (I forget the exact rules).
I tried to finish the task but I wasn't able to complete it because I didn't know the libraries well enough. If I had used a higher level library I was more familiar with, I could have completed the project. They might have dinged me for using a library I wasn't "supposed" to use, and maybe I wouldn't have gotten the job anyway, but not using the library was worse overall because I didn't finish and I felt like a fool turning in a half-baked codebase that certainly didn't make me feel good about myself. Predictably, I didn't get a call back.
Tl;dr - the main thing about coding in interviews is to get the thing done. If the way you know how to do it is using some library, use the library. People will not care how much work you did to avoid using a library if the solution does not work.

[delicate bane]

hi you should try #❓｜how-to-get-help. this channel is for #career-advice

[sleek egret]

yar

[near ocean]

import bisect moment
I mean, if the task is to see if you understand some fundamentals but you use a lib function that wont really go down well
Your best bet is always to ask what you're allowed to use or not and if they want you to do something manually or not
If theyre trying to see if i know BFS and i pull out networkx...

[white relic]

Yeah, ideally of course (and I suppose if I had been the candidate they were looking for) I could have done it under the original constraints. And no doubt I would have looked foolish for ignoring one of them, but what I actually did turned out worse because my code just straight up didn't work.
(It was some async networking code in Rust, not leetcode crap)

[wide root]

I just finished my first Udemy python training, it covered the basics, what do you recommend I should do next to learn some basic flask or Jango or h2o wave, any recommendations

I want to get some practice with python to build the muscle memory before I can feel comfortable to take on some project

[mortal wedge]

How do I write a rejection letter to a company?

I want to be respectful and honest and ideally not burn any bridges/close any doors for the future

[peak halo]

that is, they gave you an offer, and you decided to go with a different offer?

[mortal wedge]

Yes

I realize it's just business, etc. etc., but I still feel like a shitheel

No

[peak halo]

I've done this exactly once, and I wrote something like this:

Thank you for extending this offer to me. I've enjoyed getting to know the team at [company name] and learning more about what you do. This is a great offer, but I've decided to accept a different offer, in large part because I believe the projects there will relate more closely to my specific interests. Respectfully, Stelercus

[wide root]

My advice is to be honest, and trust that they understand that it is business.
If they don't its probably a bridge not worth keeping.
"I genuinely appreciated the interaction we had so far, [I would mention here some of the good things they did in the interview process].
As much as I was tempted to join your organization, still I have found a position that fits my aspirations better at this point in time [feel free to share with them here if you want to what is it that made your decision]
Thank you and I hope you do not mind that I reach out to you again in the future if opportunity presnts itself.
Regards,

[mortal wedge]

How does this sound?

Thank you again for the offer.  Given where the company is in its lifecycle it was very generous. I did receive competing offers and the decision of which company to go with was very difficult.  X came in 2nd.  You have a noble goal and I wish you and your company all the success in making it come to fruition. Hope you had and continue to have a great holiday season.

[spark cobalt]

The gigachad parents behind naming you Stelercus

[mortal wedge]

X is the name of the company

[peak halo]

It's not my actual name, though my grandpa did tell my mom that it sounded like she wanted me to have a macho complex, or something.

[spark cobalt]

Explaining why is unnessecary imo. Just rubs salt into the wound.

[wide root]

@mortal wedge sounds good

[spark cobalt]

X came in 2nd...to fruition. Id just cut it out and say I decided to go with another offer.

X came 2nd can rub off badly

[mortal wedge]

I shouldn't wish the company success?

[wide root]

@spark cobalt a solid recruiter would appreciate the feedback to address it in future interviews 🙂

[mortal wedge]

I was thinking I could explain the rationale if they asked

[spark cobalt]

I would cut off the noble goal part.

[mortal wedge]

Gotcha

[wide root]

'X came 2nd ' I agree doesn't give them meaningful feedback and makes you sound arrogant

[spark cobalt]

But you're likely sending this to some recruiter, no? Might be better to just thank the recruiter for their time and efforts.

[peak halo]

I would omit "X came in 2nd".

Thank you again for this offer. Given where the company is in its lifecycle it was very generous. However, I did receive competing offers and the decision of which company to go with was very difficult, and I decided to accept a different offer.

You have a noble goal and I wish you and your company all the success in making it come to fruition. Hope you had and continue to have a great holiday season.

[mortal wedge]

No, I'm sending this to the company president

[wide root]

Seems like a startup situation to me, and if they take pride in their noble goal, it is not a bad thing to mention it

[mortal wedge]

It is a startup, yeah

[peak halo]

I don't know what the goal of the company is, so I can't really comment on whether or not "you have a noble goal" is appropriate here. but I like that you're ending it with positive vibes.

[spark cobalt]

If they take pride in it, then someone admitting it being a noble goal and not going their way can be a little sketch.

[spark cobalt]

I would just cut off the noble goal part and this sounds great

[mortal wedge]

They do have a really cool mission. I just don't think I'm the founding engineer they need to make their mission a reality

[spark cobalt]

When you say it like this, this is a lot better.

Maybe something like "I admire the vision this company has, however I do not think I'm the right fit to make this mission a reality."

Probably can word it a little better but yeah

[wide root]

could end up compromizing his chances to join them in the future

[mortal wedge]

It sucks. I interviewed like everyone at that company

[wide root]

if you use this, rather be specific on why you are not a fit, they might assume it to be a vision or culture fit you are refering to

[spark cobalt]

Good point. The role they interviewed you for might be worth highlighting.

[mortal wedge]

The specific reason is that if asked to grow their company, my recommendation would be to lean on mobile app development and I am not a mobile app developer

[wide root]

@mortal wedge thats the case with startups all the time, it feels like shit to say no to them, but if the startup hits a bump, they drop you off first with an 'Awwww' we didn't think it would come to this ...
Just rip the band aid 🙂 no breakup is ever a perfect breakup 😄

[spark cobalt]

Can just cut off the reason entirely. The more you add on, the more you're trying to cover up something.

[peak halo]

are you wanting to leave the door open in case your skillset would be a better fit for their future needs? is that something you think might actually happen?

[mortal wedge]

I just don't like closing doors. Especially because my field is not super large.

[spark cobalt]

Is it those fields where everyone knows everybody.

[mortal wedge]

Yes

[spark cobalt]

I work in computer networks and it's the same thing lol. Everyone getting hired, half of our team already knows them

[mortal wedge]

Not a lot of people are interested in doing neuroscience research in a programmatic way in the states

[wide root]

Honest open communication and as mentioned above by @spark cobalt avoid the you guys came second 🙂

[mortal wedge]

Yeah. Sounds like I'll leave out the 2nd place part and noble part and just express the rest of it

[wide root]

@mortal wedge I'm a big fan of your field, may I message you in private

[mortal wedge]

Haha sure

[peak halo]

my department has had people leave and come back. one person has even done that twice.

if a polite rejection notice from you makes them never want to talk to you again, then that would indicate that maybe you wouldn't want to work for them anyway.

[mortal wedge]

Sent. Argh. I'm not cut out for this sort of thing

[peak halo]

https://tenor.com/view/big-hero6-baymax-hiro-hamada-you-will-be-alright-there-there-gif-15857471

[sleek egret]

traitors should be punished

[wide root]

who dis

[sleek egret]

it's just a guiding principle of life

[wide root]

why in career discussion

[sleek egret]

because of what Stelercus said

[wide root]

😆

[peak halo]

is this a reference to the movie the gif is from? because I never saw that movie. and people should only shitpost in response to things that I say if I get it

[sleek egret]

what movie?

[inner wren]

Hey @graceful wagon!

It looks like you tried to attach file type(s) that we do not allow (.pdf). We currently allow the following file types: .gif, .jpg, .jpeg, .mov, .mp4, .mpg, .png, .mp3, .wav, .ogg, .webm, .webp, .flac, .m4a, .csv, .json.

Feel free to ask in #community-meta if you think this is a mistake.

[graceful wagon]

Trying to switch from quality to development, something in python or java

[wide root]

this

[young shale]

[cunning condor]

who has more transferrable skill between data engineer, scientist or analyst?

[balmy spade]

Who learned more? Which skills are you concerned with? Where are they transferring to?

[patent grove]

how much should i expect to earn as a data engineer in san fran area with 1 yr intern/part time experience at a company like D.R Horton? It is a pretty big construction company in the US

[smoky quest]

Same answers than the past few times you got answered. Anything missing?

[patent grove]

yeah i got a 110k TC offer, should i try negotiating here?

[vapid jay]

i am a maths major in college and have just started learning python....what are my possible carrier options ?

[spark cobalt]

It's not uncommon for math majors to go in as data scientists. Know quite a few personally.

[vapid jay]

ohh ok

[midnight mulch]

Is physics good to take for anything in computer science ?

Like will it even help me or is it just an extra subject that can be taken with math and cs

[brittle thorn]

Or Science Majors too

[brave bridge]

.bm

[flat anvil]

Click the button to be sent your very own bookmark to [this message](#career-advice message).

[full zodiac]

Anyone from India?

[willow magnet]

can some help me with this https://discord.com/channels/267624335836053506/1057643628769595423

[tight ibex]

.bm

[flat anvil]

Noooooo!!

Your input was invalid: You must either provide a reference to a valid message, or reply to one.

The lookup strategy for a message is as follows (in order):

1. Lookup by '{channel ID}-{message ID}' (retrieved by shift-clicking on 'Copy ID')
2. Lookup by message ID (the message must be in the current channel)
3. Lookup by message URL

Usage:```
.bookmark [target_message] [title=Bookmark]

[tight ibex]

.bm

[flat anvil]

Click the button to be sent your very own bookmark to [this message](#career-advice message).

[sleek egret]

yar

[vapid jay]

i was thinking what can i do after mastering python

[near ocean]

There is no such thing as mastering Python or any language, there's people using it and working on it for decades that wouldnt call themselves masters of it and neither should you

[sleek egret]

typically, one gets a job along the way.

mastery is an ideal that one never reaches

[vapid jay]

ok like what are opportunities for python

[sleek egret]

indeed. one should never call oneself master, only through the consensus of others can one be acknowledged as master

[vapid jay]

isee

[sleek egret]

they are myriad. from simple websites to complex scientific analysis. from robotics control to protein folding analysis. from game logic engines to accounting operations

[near ocean]

Python is general purpose and usually used in automation, data science, AI/ML, finance, webdev and such

[sleek egret]

has anyone ever considered the relationship between the use of the word "general" for military ranks and "general" to mean broad/widespread/overall

I guess not

[ruby olive]

Hello

[hearty island]

wow is this a big red flag someone at my work just quit and walked out and then my boss came over to me and told me he got terminated. told me to never speak to him again 💀

talk about excomunicado

[delicate bane]

that is hella sketch

ngl

[hearty island]

i was gonna get lunch w him today and my boss was like yeah no

[tawdry horizon]

does anyone know how to crack python codes? i need a key to use a python script so anyone know how to bypass it and crack it?

[hearty island]

!rule 5

[inner wren]

Rules

5. Do not provide or request help on projects that may break laws, breach terms of services, or are malicious or inappropriate.

[tawdry horizon]

what do you mean

i just want to use fortnite softaim but dont want to pay for a key to use the loader

[hearty island]

i just spoke to him and he was like yeah dude i quit i didn’t get fired… so why say that they terminated him? weird asf

[delicate bane]

wait so did he say why he quit or

[hearty island]

nope

ok i just heard what happened. apparently the company hired someone else and he got upset about it and didn’t come to the holiday party

[sleek egret]

not going to the holiday party gets you fired?

[hearty island]

also he didn’t like how his boss was giving him shit about his work

[sleek egret]

but isn't that his boss's job?

[hearty island]

that’s true. he didn’t like how unorganized she was

his boss is in charge of HR and finance at the same time…

[sleek egret]

That seems a bit odd. perhaps it makes sense for his ex-employer. perhaps not. who am I to judge?

[delicate bane]

that is kinda weird

[mortal wedge]

If someone quits the company it looks bad on the company. If someone gets fired, it looks bad on the employee.

[nimble salmon]

as someone wanting to be an ML engineer/ AI eng . It is necessary for me to do traditional CS courses and learn C++ for CUDA ?

[hearty island]

idk who to believe, i just was spoken to by his boss too

[steep zenith]

Hi! I'm about to get a Google Data Analytics Professional Certificate on Coursera and I plan to apply as a data analyst. However, I'm a student and this creates some problems with job hunting.

That's why I have two questions:

1. Is it possible to be a part-time data analyst?
2. Do you get paid for amount of hours or you get a task and you can do it in time that is comfortable for you?

[midnight cloak]

can i ask questions here about education aswell.^.

[steep zenith]

This applies for me or not meaning my question?

[midnight cloak]

No sry

[worldly ridge]

what does an application engineer do?

[fallow tusk]

What commonly happens on initial interview?

[near ocean]

You get asked questions about your background, education, experience, expectations

[mortal wedge]

Depends. Sometimes you get paid on billable hours, sometime it's a sum for completing the project

[steep zenith]

So I need to clarify that from my employer when applying for job, right?

[mortal wedge]

Yes, that's typically part of negotiation.

[steep zenith]

Alright, thank you!

[fallow tusk]

What expectations? Also if i pass initial interview next is the coding interveiw?

[mortal wedge]

Different companies will often do things differently. Expectations typically refers to compensation expectations. In an initial phone screen, it's typically you and a recruiter/HR trying to get a rough feel if you're a good fit. So if you're looking for 200k and they're thinking of offering 100k, you're not a good fit for one another.

Some companies like to do coding interview early in the process, some later

Amazon (used to?) would START with a coding challenge and if you passed it would go to HR/Recruiter stage, for instance

[fallow tusk]

I see this is my first time idk whats happening haha

[maiden lava]

Can i find a Trainee programmer job at 16?

[near ocean]

Where?

[balmy mural]

I had this for the company I'm starting at in January

Takehome coding challenge first, then interview

Actually didn't have an HR stage at all, takehome -> interview with manager and one of the senior developers

[near ocean]

Meta has (or had, last I checked) online assessments before you even talk to a person

[balmy mural]

Yea, mine was an online assessment. Only communication before that was for when I could take it

[native siren]

It depends on your career experience. If you're in a similar role at another high profile tech co, you skip right to onsite

[near ocean]

At that point your network does more to carry you, remember to add everyone you meet or work with on linkedin lol

[near ocean]

They did with me

Idk, the title i was given was Software Developer

I didnt take it, it paid less than what i take home rn lol

Some SQL question and doing maths with huge numbers in str format (ie they dont fit in your standard int size)

It was 2 mediums, idk didnt bother to do them

Yea, it was less money and also not remote

If it was in person i'd do it but i dont get anything out of doing timed leetcode lol

Yes it was on hackerrank

Its london and probably were entry/junior role so yea
UK tech salaries are utter garbage

It possibly would have been a good idea to go to meta instead for the CV pump, but eh

[molten yacht]

Hey guys for me as a python developer, how i can join big companies like meta,amazon,google ? what should i learn

[graceful mason]

Look up python based roles in those companies and see what they're asking for

[molten yacht]

yes i searched in youtube i found people talking about solving problems and a lot of things like that.

i don't know if knowing frameworks will help? because companies at the moment that a join are asking abt frameworks

[balmy mural]

Don't lookup youtube, lookup python based job postings by those companies and look at what other requirements they have

[molten yacht]

i'm just focusing right now at google jobs. they don't give a lot of informations in job post. they just said you should have 4 years of experiences that's all.

[molten yacht]

ya the problem there is no details

[balmy mural]

If they're asking for 4 YoE, it's not a junior role

[molten yacht]

yes for technical interviews you should be able to sole complexe problems

yes Guitar it's not a junior role, me i have 4 years of X

[sleek egret]

anyone under 40 is a junior

[balmy mural]

There's more 'levels' than just senior and juniors

[sleek egret]

I am indeed a senior

[near ocean]

Theres 40 year olds with 20y experience

[sleek egret]

true, there are also the babes and the elders

[summer roost]

there's also 40 year olds with the same 1 year of experience 20 times over.

[sleek egret]

there are also 20 year olds that don't know what a file is

[balmy spade]

Age doesn't tie to role at all, really. I work with a 45 year old associate engineer and our company has a 22 year old senior staff engineer.

[summer roost]

sure. That's true of people at literally every age, though, so 🤷‍♂️

[sleek egret]

it's more true of 20 yr olds

[near ocean]

Theres a wide range of incompetency
I also work with a young senior eng while theres other "lower" level older engs in the team

[summer roost]

I think people younger than 40 are much, much more likely to know what a file is than people over 40

[sleek egret]

I disagree

[summer roost]

millenials and gen z grew up with computers in their classrooms and in their pockets. gen x and older didn't.

[sleek egret]

everyone who's 40 has been using computers their entire adult life. many 20 yr olds, only touched a real computer a few years back

[sleek egret]

you are incorrect. as a genx, we had computers in the school in the 80's

[gilded valley]

Yeah I have no idea how anyone under 20 doesn't know what a file is. I'm 24 and have been uploading files for homework etc since I was 13

[sleek egret]

and I went to a rather meh public HS in a blue collar midwest town

[balmy mural]

Every single person I went to school with (finished in 2017 for context) has worked with a computer and own a phone. Every single one of them will have a general idea of what a file is

[sleek egret]

many kids in HS today have never touched an actual computer. they have only used phones and tablets

[balmy mural]

Almost everyone at university uploads files for their assignments

[gilded valley]

Those have files

[sleek egret]

yes, you're over the hill. get with the times, gramps

[smoky quest]

There are more chances someone is familiar with a phone rather than a computer. There was some statistics around about how kids were doing everything on phones and did not necessarily used a computer

[gilded valley]

You don't need a computer for almost anything these days

[sleek egret]

many schools do all assignments online and on websites using saas apps. no files involved.

[gilded valley]

I can't think of a single thing you can't do on a tablet

[sleek egret]

can you do #1 and #2 on a tablet?

[tidal gulch]

you can

[sleek egret]

lol, wowzas!

[gilded valley]

That was more in response to recursive saying kids haven't used computers

[summer roost]

seems like an odd distinction. Phones are computers.

[sleek egret]

The distinction is that with computers you have to be at least marginally aware of file systems and files. with phones/tablets, you do not

[smoky quest]

How so? These are different types of devices

[tidal gulch]

where do people go for Python gig work? I need to hire someone for a few hours to a few days of help, and the official python jobs board is all full time jobs, and there's nobody there (crickets)

[sleek egret]

my fridge is a computer too!

[tidal gulch]

if any of you guys do gig work, are their sites that you go to to find it that I could post on?

[unique sedge]

Guys is automation is a good path for python developers?!

[gilded valley]

Can, but there's far more 40yos who dropped out of school at 15 and have been working on oil rigs and getting someone else to deal with their admin never touching a computer than there are 15yos who have never had to upload a file

[balmy spade]

Sure is.

[near ocean]

Dont phones have file systems too? This is a strange hill to die on lol
Theres probably more kids that can code laps around you and I than boomers

[sleek egret]

my nephew (who refuses to get a real job) could do a bit of gig work for you. he's very smart but a bit... anti-social.

[summer roost]

!rule 6 9

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[unique sedge]

Are there a lot of jobs out there like website developers?

[tidal gulch]

@sleek egret i think it's not allowed to recruit in here, but i'd be glad to see if your nephew is interested - the task is half C++ half python

[sleek egret]

it's about what's revealed to users. I've found myself explaining what a process is, what a home directory is, that different files have different formats, etc. to college students

[sleek egret]

why don't you dm me

[tidal gulch]

my friend who's been teaching computer science for 30 years says that fresh entering students today have less understanding of how computers work than 30 years ago because mobile devices abstract so much away

[sleek egret]

yeah, that's essentially what I mean. you say it so much more nicely and politely though.

[near ocean]

College students arent in the workforce yet

[gilded valley]

Processes and home directories are very different to the concept of files.

You don't even really have a concept of a home directory as a user facing concept on windows

[sleek egret]

ok

gatekeeping is fine if you do it for the right reasons and keep the wrong sorts out

[summer roost]

I'm betting someone 30 years ago would have said exactly the same thing.

[near ocean]

Boomer mentality is such a plague

[sleek egret]

not really. they were actually surprised that kids knew anything because PC's had become mainstream over the previous 10 years

[gilded valley]

This isn't even unique to boomers, it's ubiquitous to pretty much every generation

[near ocean]

So what?

[sleek egret]

"I wanna be different, just like everybody else!"

[summer roost]

No, it's absolutely true that engineers in the 90s lamented that new grads didn't know how computers "really work" because they had learned 3rd gen languages and never touched assembly.

[sleek egret]

programming is not new. we're entering the 3rd generation. there are kids in school now who's parents and grandparents were programmers.

[balmy spade]

The gatekeeping mentality never stops. The gates just keep moving.

[delicate bane]

and i bet someone 30 years into the future will say the same exact thing

[sleek egret]

I went to school in the late 80's and started working in the 90's. that attitude was not widespread. seriously.

[near ocean]

"these damn kids just ask the computer to make them things, they dont gotta import tf just like in the good ol days"

[sleek egret]

I have to wonder if western civilization will last that long

[gilded valley]

These damn kids don't even learn JavaScript, the only real way to learn how to build a UI is to do it in SvelteKit 3 with Tuxedo for state management like I had to back in 2027!

[summer roost]

you are not much older than me, and your appeals to authority will not work on me.

[sleek egret]

who do you think it'll work on? I'll try them!

[summer roost]

.wa short define senior

[flat anvil]

Wolfram Alpha

older; higher in rank; longer in length of tenure or service

[sleek egret]

If there are no gunshots involved, it's not a real argument

[summer roost]

regardless, when we say "senior engineer", we mean "higher in rank", not "older".

[tidal gulch]

when i was a kid, using a computer meant manually choosing how much preferred ram my program would run with

[sleek egret]

that's so boomer, man

[dense mesa]

Nah it won't (source: Cramer)

[balmy spade]

Easy pizza-cutter. No need to go full edge lord. We get it. You're old.

[tidal gulch]

regular user tasks exposed you to a lot of inner workings

[sleek egret]

remember "turbo" buttons?

[gilded valley]

Clearly you would agree that every generation complains that the next one is rubbish and soft and going to grow up to be rubbish.

Can you point to any actual change in the population of CS students?

[near ocean]

Its the old man doing the discriminating

[sleek egret]

sure, but to be pedantic, I'm not complaining about gen-z, I'm complaining about millenials

so next after next 🙂

[summer roost]

there are millenials in their 40s, my guy.

[near ocean]

26 year old zoomer here btw

[gilded valley]

Millennials are split though, plenty grew up with smartphones, plenty without. For zoomers, smartphones were ubiquitous

[sleek egret]

oh wait, maybe I meant I'm complaiining about gen-z then, and NOT millenials

[gilded valley]

The key thing I'm asking for is what has made them worse than gen X

[sleek egret]

yeah, them

[near ocean]

Zoomer limit is like 1995

[gilded valley]

Zoomer limit I always use is the one Wikipedia has in a diagram, with a '97 cutoff

[sleek egret]

their detachment from reality mostly. and their bad taste in music and fashion.

[gilded valley]

Makes sense. Can't program whilst listening to bloody mumble rappers

[peak halo]

the definition that I use for millennial is "an age that would be in the US public school system in the year 2000". So it would be everyone between ages 5 and 18 in 2000. And everyone born since then is a Zoomer.

But these are arbitrary boundaries.

[sleek egret]

well, pew research says millenials are those born between 1981 and 1996

gen-z from 1997 to 2012

[summer roost]

a) This has nothing to do with careers, and b) It's quite rude, and you really need to bear our #code-of-conduct in mind.

[gilded valley]

I just want to set the arbitrary boundaries in a place that makes me a millennial, but then I have to go against the rest of the world

[sleek egret]

no idea, when was he/she/it born?

[sleek egret]

I like the way you think

everyone always forgets about us

[gilded valley]

Fwiw, I didn't think it was rude, just vaguely amusing

[summer roost]

no, saying that everyone under the age of 25 is "detached from reality" is definitely rude.

[sleek egret]

I had a sociology prof in uni that said, "generalizations aren't worth a damn. but neither are people who refuse to make them."

[summer roost]

I have no idea how to answer that question. Or even what it means, honestly.

[sleek egret]

in fairness though, he was sort of an asshole. I distinctly recall him making a couple girls in the class cry

[summer roost]

what a great role model

@modern ore What would it mean to you if I said "very hard"? Or if I said "very easy"? What sort of information are you hoping to glean?

[sleek egret]

BB == bulletin board?

[summer roost]

Honestly, I couldn't really say. It's been a very long time; I couldn't tell you a single question that I was asked when I was first hired.

[near ocean]

Are you in the same role?

[sleek egret]

my first "tech" job was repairing computers as a summer job during uni. I knew nothing.

[summer roost]

and my first full-time job after college came after 3 internships - I've probably been given about 75 technical interviews in my life

[sleek egret]

I learned to read circuit diagrams on the job. I also electrocuted myself multiple times.

[summer roost]

uni with a co-op program

oops, wrong reply

[sleek egret]

did you go to drexel?

[summer roost]

no, not really. Different department entirely than what I started in at this point. And at one point I quit, and rejoined after working at a few other companies

[summer roost]

yeah.

yes

[sleek egret]

cool, I went to the university next door to drexel:-)

philly was such a pit back then

[summer roost]

yeah 😅

OTOH, tuition at Drexel now is up to around 2x what it was when I went. so...

[balmy spade]

The one year I considered a university the tuition jumped 4x. Crazy what that can cost today.

[summer roost]

yeah, Drexel wasn't cheap when I went. It's pretty ridiculous now.

that said, co-op programs are OP

[mortal wedge]

Got it. THen yes, some companies like Amazon are outside of the norm. What is different with Amazon is that their initial coding interview is automated. This could probably accidentally filter out good candidates, but they have so many candidates that they don't care.

[summer roost]

the students who graduate with multiple internships under their belts are a much higher caliber of junior engineer than the ones without.

[mortal wedge]

A little odd, but it's not like there's any universal guidelines. Typically it's HR/phone screen, then a talk with someone more technically oriented, then a coding interview, then speaking with some of the higher ups to see if you're a culture fit. Some companies try to combine those by doing panel interviews. It's really company dependent, but generally you should be prepared to:

Have a coding interview
Speak with a non-technical recruiter
Speak with a technical team member
Speak with someone in management.

You're speaking to different audiences in each one and it helps to think of what you may ask/how you respond depending on what stage you're at.

[mortal wedge]

Damn not going to lie that sounds exhausting. I'm probably in the low teens?

maybe high teens/low twenties

[gilded valley]

as in, you've been the interviewee ~20 times, or you've interviewed ~20 candidates?

[mortal wedge]

Been the interviewee ~20 times. But I've also interviewed around.... a dozen people. My company has been pretty good at filtering out applicants by the time it gets to me

Well

[graceful mason]

i've done 3 interviews and gotten 2 jobs, my plan is to never leave my company so i don't have to interview and lose my streak

[mortal wedge]

Filtering out applicants, I can't speak to how well they filtered them out. But some candidates on initial screening and by looking at their resume look really promising and then they're just terrible in person.

[gilded valley]

I've done 6 total technical interviews, including for the 2 internships I did.

My first 3 interviews were offers, the next 2 rejections - so based on this totally relevant sample, it makes sense for you to stick

[mortal wedge]

Haha, that's a damn good ratio

[gilded valley]

how many jobs from the 20?

[gilded valley]

well - the no-offers were higher EV than the ones for which I got offers

[mortal wedge]

Just 2. So my ratio sucks 😛 But to be honest, early on I was applying to EVERYTHING and I never turned down an interview, I was desperate.

[gilded valley]

or rather - a better question - what are your reflections after the 20 and getting to this point in your career?

[near ocean]

Im 2 for 2 and I plan on keeping up my 100% success rate

[summer roost]

Yes, Drexel has a similar system. You can find internships on your own, but there are a certain number of internships specifically advertised to Drexel students and a pipeline with lots of local companies in it.

[summer roost]

The 3 rounds of internships back in school was responsible for ~40 technical interviews all on its own. Which is another benefit of co-op programs - practice interviewing.

[mortal wedge]

Practicing helps tremendously. Even if they're technical interviews, being able to read the room, dialogue with people, handle questions you don't know the answer to... all those things are non-technical but still extremely important. I'm an advocate for doing mock interviews and going to career centers and taking classes.

Also, to be fair, on paper I was a terrible applicant and I think some of my interviews were already doomed on that alone. (When going for my first position)

[gilded valley]

Just getting into a room when you're terrible on paper is pretty huge, even if some people are already decided against you, it's an opportunity to change their minds

[mortal wedge]

But also, it's really stupid, but go practice your leet code or applicable alternative. And that's a good point 🙂

Coding under time pressure with someone watching over your shoulder is not something that comes natural to most coders I don't think

I didn't gain too much from my school's career fair, but the city I'm in had a mad decent career center.

[gilded valley]

I've somehow gotten way fucking worse at it since I was in university - the last technical test I did went horribly

[mortal wedge]

Well, in uni you had exams and a lot of information taught to you was still fresh. I would flounder if somebody asked me to balance a binary tree now

[gilded valley]

well - the test was stuff I did in my day-to-day, so the freshness isn't really relevant. But I think you're right and I somehow fell out of practice of being good under pressure+observation

maybe it's WFH, whenever I'm working hard now I'm sat around hunched over my desk shouting bad words at my computer - vs maintaining the facade of being a normal human being pre-covid

[mortal wedge]

WFH is the shit

I't definitely worth a lot of money to me to continue to work from home

It happens. It just means you have to learn the skills and develop them outside of your university.

[gilded valley]

I think a lot of people probably undervalue the literal dollar cost of WFH. Not having to drive for an hour everyday saves money on both fuel and time

If it's an hours commute total, that's already a 12.5% extra cost to you

[mortal wedge]

But I do want to try to drive home a point, being able to sell yourself on a resume, succeed in technical interviews, succeed in culture fit interviews, these are all skills that can be practiced and developed.

Even if it's like a 15 minute commute WFH would still be worth it to me, but anything over a 30 minute commute would be untenable for me personally

[summer roost]

It's definitely a big advantage of co-op schools.

[balmy mural]

Yea, that's much more inline with the other two interviews I did. I think the amount of people they are hiring factors into this streamlined one

They're hiring close to 80 new juniors afaik

[mortal wedge]

One company I interviewed with had 8 hours of interviewing all on the same day. It was a test of endurance >.>

I failed that one but by interview 5 I didn't care anymore I just wanted them to stop

Medtronic. I do software R&D in the life sciences.

Health insurance is awesome at life science companies

But also proof of vaccines are req'd at pretty much every place I'm applying to, so some people may not like that

[graceful wagon]

thank you king

[summer roost]

Nothing you can do about that now, though. All you can do is make the best of the situation that you're in now. Work hard now, try to get internships, focus on skills that companies are most likely to care about.

[patent grove]

should i try to negotiate my 110k TC? Its a data engineering position, the company is D.R Horton, location is bay area (san jose area), and I have a year experience as a data engineer with the same company through 3 months internship, 9 months part time. i'm graduating in 3 months

[white relic]

TC?

[true harness]

total compensation, presumably

[white relic]

ah

Don't really know what's a decent starting salary in San Jose tbh. Seems on the low side. Especially if that TC number includes a bunch of perks that have a monetary value but you in particular don't need or plan to use

But I am probably inflating the costs of living in the bay area in my head because I never lived there and only know about it from people complaining about the cost of living

[summer roost]

no, you probably have it about right. San Francisco is about the 3rd highest CoL in the US.

after NYC and Honolulu

[smoky quest]

Yeah, it's on the low side. whether to negotiate or not is up to them though

[patent grove]

well he gave me a range of 110-125k TC and then gave me an offer for 110k

does this mean that its still open for discussion?

[smoky quest]

It's always open for discussion until you sign

[summer roost]

unless you have another offer on the table, though, the only leverage that you have is the willingness to walk away

[patent grove]

theres no wrong in asking for more though right? i wont lose my offer or anything

[smoky quest]

As long as it's in good faith

But before going into negotiation, you need to plan it out

What are you negotiating? What's the expected outcome? What would you bulge on or not? What if stock vs base vs sign on bonus vs etc. ?
What attitude are you gonna take? What if they say no? How will you justify it?

[summer roost]

it's unlikely that you'd lose the offer - it's unlikely that they'd take offense to you saying "I'd like higher pay"; it's a totally reasonable sentiment to express. But they don't have many incentives to actually give you more money, unless you have some sort of leverage.

[mortal wedge]

Almost everything is negotiable. Even if they explicitly say "Your salary compensation is non-negotiable" you can often negotiate non-salary related compensation/signing bonus/etc.

[patent grove]

is 66% 401k match pretty good u guys think?

[mortal wedge]

You can theoretically get an offer rescinded for anything, but generally salary negotiation is not one of them unless it's just completely out there, like they're offering 200k and you ask for 400k

[mortal wedge]

Depends on the parameters. Is that up to a certain amount? Unlimited?

[patent grove]

i think its unlimited, i dont see a limit

[mortal wedge]

If you're asking for more money, the approach I recommend is something like "Thank you, I appreciate the amount that you're offering. However, given my experience in X,Y,Z (or skills in X,Y,Z) I think new amount would be a better compensation for my qualifications." The goal is to demonstrate why they should stretch to give you more.

It's also a lot different in tone than "Give me more or I walk!" as that kind of sets a tone for your employment. At least I've found it that way at smaller companies.

[leaden jasper]

It's usually phrased like 100% of the first 3% or something like 50% match of the first 6%

[patent grove]

oh yeah i see it now lol. its 67% for the first 6% of biweekly pay

[leaden jasper]

That's honestly pretty good/alright

[patent grove]

i know this might be a stupid question..but how does this work lol. so if its like a 6k biweekly check, and I have it set to 9% employee pre tax. how much would they match?

[mortal wedge]

It's not a stupid question

I just don't know much about those sorts of things, lol. I just set aside each month whatever is being matched

[patent grove]

yeah i gotta look into this more to maximize 401k haha

[sleek egret]

the employer and employee must pay equal amounts of FICA, medicare and other taxes. it should have been been deducted from your paycheck

if it is not (i.e. you're on 1099), then you will have to file a form 1040-SE and pay the entire amount

[sleek egret]

oh, it's 401(k) ? never mind

[leaden jasper]

So, let's say you put in 6%. We'll make up a number and say that you putting away 6% of your salary equates to $100. Your employer will now match $67 in contributions.

If you only contribute 3%, aka $50, then your employer will contribute $33.50.

But if you contribute something like 50% of your salary, your employer will still only match $67, because they won't match beyond your first 6% contribution.

So, the answer is: contribute at least 6% otherwise you're leaving free money on the table. Past that depends on your retirement and investment strategy

[summer roost]

past that might mean that you leave money on the table, too - if you max out your maximum 401(k) contributions for the year early in the year, then you're missing out on company matches on all later paychecks that year (correct me if I'm wrong kat 🙂)

[leaden jasper]

(I do have a couple of good resources for investment and retirement strategies for those looking to retire early if you're interested in that and trying to min/max your retirement stuff)

[leaden jasper]

Yup, especially if your employer matches per-paycheck and not at some end-of-year-based-on-total-contributions metric.

If you want to maximize your 401k contribution, then you want to take the limit, divide it by the number of paychecks, and make sure you contribute that amount per-paycheck to make sure you get the employer contribution on every paycheck. (Employer contributions do not count towards your limit, but if you max it early in the year and drop your contribution to 0% for the rest of the year, your employer will match $0 on 0% for that rest of the year).

The 2022 limit is $20,500. The 2023 limit is $22,500.

This can get a bit complex with a high enough salary where your contribution % to max it out is lower than the % required for a full match. So you want to double check on your math and the fine print for the match stuff to see what you can wiggle out, but that's what I'll call a good problem to have 😉

Also this stuff is by no means trivial or straightforward, there really are no dumb questions. So feel free to ask and I'm happy to answer what I can!

[summer roost]

and different employers can do things very differently, so you do need to pay attention to the fine print.

[patent grove]

makes sense, thanks for all that!

[pale island]

Hi, just wondering if it it better to enter computer science or computer engineering? Now I was thinking of initially entering computer science then building up on it as studying goes ( like extend a branch in cyber security, and in coding robots then assembling them and so in the end working with both robot mechanics and coding them as a computer scientist) I don’t really know if that is possible ( for now it is like a dream that is there) I am not in university yet but I will be in a 1 and a half year so I am not sure what path I should enter. Any help ?

[white relic]

Both are good options, so it is really up to you. If you want to go into robotics I think that would be more in the computer engineering ballpark. Cyber security is a pretty different kind of field and a lot of universities offer it as a dedicated degree or track within CS

Personally, I picked CE because when I looked at what classes I'd be taking, the CS program at my university had a few more gen ed requirements I didn't care to take and the CE one looked more technical and interesting.

[willow scaffold]

Is AI + computer science a good combination?? Is it better than AI + Machine learning

[brave surge]

if you did Bio/Chem in 12th and wanted to move into a medical field with some CS skills , would there be a suitable career to match this , right now i see Bio informatics or Bio chemistry as the options that use both .. not sure what the comps are like in these fields in th eUK

[next elk]

How do you get a job programing

[smoky quest]

AI includes machine learning. So I would go for AI + CS

[smoky quest]

The simplest path with the most opportunity is to get a CS degree like a BSc

[summer roost]

there's also computational biology, biological engineering, biochemical engineering, biomedical engineering...

[next elk]

I mean IBM offers lower programming level jobs with no degree starting at 70k (only know this because of a family member at IBM) does any other company offer this I like IBM but I kinda would like to have career options as a plan B.

It's entry level from what I understand but I main fear is I'll be locked in because I don't have a degree at the moment.

[summer roost]

well, yes - that's definitely a possibility, and another good reason to get a degree.

[vapid jay]

Hey!
My internship started on 5th July and it was a six month internship then will it end exactly? Like on 5th January or 31st December.

[smoky quest]

Your company should know that

[vapid jay]

I mean like usually when does it end?

[smoky quest]

Whenever it's a good time for both parties. There is no hard rule

[vapid jay]

I see when do you usually get offer letters?

[smoky quest]

that was sent and signed a month ago

[vapid jay]

No I mean full time job offer

[smoky quest]

In which context?

[vapid jay]

like after completing your internship becoming a full time employee

[smoky quest]

Any time between half way through to the end of the internship

[shrewd saddle]

hi

does anyone know any projects to learn pandas or ML in general?

[graceful mason]

Try #data-science-and-ml

[dreamy spade]

I'm just wondering if there's other responsibilities besides developing a website from scratch as a Web Developer? In college, all of my web development courses were developing websites from scratch. I'm wondering what will a web developer of a company do in their 8 hours shift with a website that's already up and running.

[near ocean]

You probably wont get to develop anything from scratch, let alone a website, the first thing to develop for a product
Theres a backlog of issues that you'll get to fix

My first week was spent on minor CSS issues

[spark cobalt]

My first week was adjusting API wrapper for our frontend cuz backend had some changes.

You'll maybe make new pages, new forms, but those should relatively be easy because you'd just end up copying or doing something similar to how other pages was made and use components that were already made.

Right now I'm in full stack position, adding a feature to bulk edit permissions for users/groups.

Idk I feel like this question is really broad. Beyond like building the UI (pages, forms, etc.), working with APIs (both on front and backend), and perhaps a database, you may also be responsible for writing unit tests for features you make.

But yeah, you'll generally always get a lot of client demands for bugs to be fixed and features to be added. Generally always something to be done.

[dreamy spade]

Oh ok so it sounds like they are tasks needed to be done on a pre-existing website. I was just learning about how to add forms with React. One of my hard challenges was to create an error message if the user didn't not input the proper credentials or left the input field blank.

[dreamy spade]

Is this what most web developers do? Copy and paste something that was made and customize it a little bit?

[spark cobalt]

Idk what rule the credentials follow, but leaving an input field blank is standard HTML stuff. If you're using the Input component, you can just pass required.

[spark cobalt]

I guess that's what all developers do to some extent. But mostly no.

[near ocean]

I have to say, with all the SO copy paste jokes going around, since starting this job i havent really had to look up anything on stackoverflow in a while, much less copy and paste
The problems are just either too business specific or too old for SO or both

[spark cobalt]

^ Agreed.

[spark cobalt]

A.) The issue with that is you don't learn anything and you're not able to grow as well as you could have. If you get more responsibilities that can't be copy/pasted you're suddenly fucked.

B.) In actual context of a website, each page offers some different utility, you probably won't be asked to build a static page ever. Maybe like a few skeleton code can be copied from other pages, but everything else can't.

C.) React is super flexible.

Whoever just sent that message. There's always simple developer tasks within a company to do that it's not worth having a senior developer do. For smaller, "less skilled", tasks, in the market that generally implies a lower pay, lower level of developer, etc. Hence, the need for junior developers.

[dreamy spade]

Yes I have required in my form. I just don't know to create error messages for invalid input.

[young isle]

Hlo

[fallow tusk]

if i am fresh grad without experience who do i put on my references? for background check?

[near ocean]

Your tutor and maybe another professor that knows you

[fallow tusk]

maybe college professor will do?

the thing is im like a shadow during college hahaha im not sure if they even remember me 😅

[spark cobalt]

Junior roles have many, many applications. They won't call your references until much later in the process when there's fewer people to call.

[fallow tusk]

but a college professor is ok?

[spark cobalt]

If they know you, yes.

Idk if employers expect to have junior developers to have references, at least within the industry.

[balmy mural]

Doesn't even need to be professional references for a junior position btw

[spark cobalt]

Good point

If you've worked in a restaurant before or something, they should work as well. Someone that knows you and can attest that you're a good fit for culture. They will know if you're qualified technically through the technical rounds and looking at your resume.

[balmy mural]

References are really important in South Africa just to confirm you're the person you claim to be, so I had my church pastor up as a references due to working as the technical coordinator at church

[fallow tusk]

i think i am misunderstanding the form says 3 professional references atleast 2 on my latest employers? does this mean i only put references if i have experience?

[spark cobalt]

If you've worked part time anywhere, they would count as professional references.

[fallow tusk]

i haven't
only college

[spark cobalt]

Oh I thought it was common to get a part time during HS and/or college.

I guess leave blank

[fallow tusk]

should i just ask hr or im gonna look noob

[fallow tusk]

maybe on other places but most of my classmates are the same as me i think

[spark cobalt]

I've applied to thousands of jobs and none of my references got called.

[balmy mural]

Probably depends on where you live. Seems very common in America, way less common in South Africa

[fallow tusk]

maybe i just put 1 college professor and hope he says good things about me hahaha

[spark cobalt]

If he doesn't know you well, it can backfire.

[near ocean]

It wont quite backfire but it probably wont go as well as a letter from someone who knows you

[spark cobalt]

Is it common for people to let the references know beforehand that they're adding them as a reference

[delicate bane]

it is only polite to do so

[near ocean]

Yea, i told my academic references and my professional ones beforehand

[spark cobalt]

@fallow tusk Maybe tell him beforehand then. Sounds like you haven't.

[jaunty sun]

is it possible to get jobs in programming without a college degree? e.g online course from a college with a certificate

[spark cobalt]

Possible, but generally not plausible.

[fallow tusk]

yep thats what im planning but idk which professor should i put

[jaunty sun]

wdym by plausible?

[spark cobalt]

Certificates carry very little weight against the hundreds of thousands of new grad that are actively looking for roles right now. How do you plan to compete with them?

[jaunty sun]

by becoming extremely good at programming 🙂

thats the plan anyways learn it over next 2-3 years then apply to a test centre

[spark cobalt]

If you plan on learning over the next 3 years, just go through a college.

[jaunty sun]

i cant really afford it tbh

[spark cobalt]

Are you in the US?

[jaunty sun]

ireland atm

[spark cobalt]

Idk much about Ireland. At least in America, which has shitty college prices, typically you can pay off student loans rather quickly as a CS new grad.

[jaunty sun]

in ireland college isnt too expensive about 10k a year im pretty sure BUT its finding a place to live beside college the most expensive bit

[spark cobalt]

Maybe look into local options?

[gilded valley]

University appears to be free in Ireland for EU citizens

[jaunty sun]

rent is insane in city areas 1k+ a month

[gilded valley]

it appears there's living cost loan/grants available
and I'm sure there are universities in low CoL areas

[jaunty sun]

its free unless you have undergraduate/postgraduate or repeating year of study

[gilded valley]

are you repeating a year of study?

[white relic]

Well, where are you going to live while self-studying and building a portfolio for the next 2-3 years?

college isn't cheap but neither is unemployment

[dreamy shadow]

"How to make money with ChatGPT AI (Chat GPT Tutorial) " are youtube videos now. Great.

[peak halo]

1. invent ChatGPT

[graceful mason]

I used chatgpt to make chatgpt and nobody is paying me 😦

[near ocean]

2. Take a loss operating it

[dreamy shadow]

3. BS enough people into believing into it.

[delicate bane]

dw they will all break once openai begins monetization.

estimates are coming in at them burning $3 mil/month just on cloud costs for inference

[cunning condor]

Can a junior data engineer get into high performance computing?

[dreamy shadow]

$3mill/month is just pocket money here lol

[peak halo]

I'd expect it to be even higher TBH

[peak halo]

if you wanted to move in that direction, would your current employer support you in doing that within the company? my company has a few high-performance computer clusters, and the person who built and maintains them is actually pretty young, but she has a PhD.

one of my immediate coworkers (not a PhD) went to a conference with her about them. but he's on a project that basically needs its own HPC.

All this is to say that it probably depends on whether or not your current employer needs more HPC people. Otherwise, you might need to go back to school.

[delicate bane]

same tbh. but this is just an estimate someone from a podcast did. im sure theres other cloud costs associated with scaling infrastructure and stuff

[brave bridge]

inference?

[delicate bane]

this is probably more appropriate for #data-science-and-ml, but when you call a ML model for an output, like in a production environment, thats referred to as inference

[brave bridge]

ah ok. is gpt free rn to make people dependant? or are they really just using it for testing?

[delicate bane]

who knows what the peeps over in openai actually think. but i believe it is part mindshare, part testing. the CEO has described the cloud costs as "eye-watering" so im assuming theyll want to find a way to monetize it soon after enough data collection

[dreamy shadow]

CEO's new Yacht is like:

[delicate bane]

anyway, i have something more careers-related + i find it inspiring for career-switchers from traditional STEM:

I remember the first time I heard the term data scientist. And I was working in a basement laboratory with no windows — I was in grad school. My friend told me that one of our old lab-mates actually got hired as a data scientist/quantitative analyst at a fintech company.

I was like, 'What? But he was a physicist.' He was like, 'I know, but these finance companies want people to come in and do this thing they're calling data science; they've got all this data, and they want people that know how to look at it.'

Then I was like, 'Damn, that's what I do all day is look at a ton of data — I think I could do that.' But then I was like, 'No but I'm still a chemist. I'm not going to do that.' And now here we are.

from this recent podcast:

[near ocean]

Missing out on tons of cash, hm

[dreamy shadow]

Ken's Nearest Neighbors

[near ocean]

One of my profs in uni would joke that wallstreet was full of physicists from nasa because of all the rocket science math needed

[delicate bane]

anyway fast forward, she now leads both an ML team + Security team at Activision. her team worked on 3 CoD product releases this past holiday season. so maybe the tldr is if you are working in a basement lab with no windows, maybe reassess your current life choices? /s

[dreamy shadow]

I guess ML team's more on the sales side.

[delicate bane]

actually its more anomaly detection. they work on anti-cheat problems. apparently thats a big thing in gaming, especially multiplayer games

[near ocean]

Activision and anticheat? How bizarre

[dreamy shadow]

Anti-cheat problems with ML sounds like using a jack hammer to hit a nail lol

Some dev's rolling in their grave.

[delicate bane]

apparently its a big thing on the global scale

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, it's probably faster way to detect cheats.

[delicate bane]

Riot Games also has a similar team i believe. (they were also on another podcast)

[dreamy shadow]

Last week, and this week's 1-1 with my manager has just been: "Waiting to hear back from a and b on projects x and y".

Next week's 1-1 is going to be the same thing since it's right after the weekend too.

[delicate bane]

my 1-1s were cancelled this week and next week due to the holidays

[dreamy shadow]

My old manager would have canceled

[steep stratus]

balls

[pastel delta]

Is anyone here, or does anyone know someone, that got a job as a Data Scientist or ML Engineer without attending a Bootcamp or having a bachelor’s

[dreamy shadow]

Data Scientist is a senior role. 99.9999% of jobs require a bachelors as a minimum and prefer a higher degree. I doubt you'll find any DS anywhere without a degree.

[balmy spade]

There are people who have a wide range of jobs without a degree. It's not common, it's not easy, and I'm not sure what those people can provide toward advice.

[dreamy spade]

How much RAM is needed for a web developer position on a computer?

[dreamy shadow]

8gb should be good enough. Which I think is standard on most computers now, if not 16gb.

[white relic]

Any reasonably modern computer should be more than capable of basic web development

[dreamy spade]

Interesting..My RAM has 4 GB on my laptop. 😐

[dreamy shadow]

Don't let your computer specs prevent you from doing what you need to do. Although, you could see if you can add another stick of ram.

[white relic]

can you browse the web and run an editor at the same time

[dreamy spade]

Yes.

[white relic]

even a development web server is super light on resources, it should be fine

[dreamy shadow]

Unused ram is wasted ram

[white relic]

now if your dev environment is competing with Windows indexing files or sending telemetry data in the background like it loves to do... then you might experience some sluggishness

[dreamy spade]

Hmmm. I may consider upgrading my RAM then.

[brave bridge]

COD does not have a anticheat

[dreamy shadow]

Some computers come with 1 stick of soldered 4gb ram. You might have another slot open. Depends on what model laptop you have.

Anti cheat in many games are just wack a mole. Can't get them all

[dreamy spade]

My model is HP Laptop 14-fq0xxx

[near ocean]

What computer you have isnt a relevant career topic

[dreamy shadow]

They wanted to know if specs were sufficient for web dev. Which it is.

[delicate bane]

same for a majority of problems in the cybersecurity space

[graceful mason]

That isn't a career advice question, really it should be asked in #web-development
Unless you're freelancing I'd expect the company to provide a laptop for you anyway

[dreamy shadow]

Great, they can know that for next time?

[delicate bane]

some of my friends are graduating at this time, and they say its tough finding a job atm. not sure what to tell them tbh

[near ocean]

You can tell them to suck it up, others had to find a job when it was illegal to walk around outside past your "government-designated exercise hour"

[delicate bane]

bruh that is some dystopian ish

[dreamy shadow]

Keep applying is really the only advice.

[balmy mural]

Just open more chrome tabs

[dreamy shadow]

Using chrome in 2022.

[gentle minnow]

I want to start freelancing programming as a side hustle while being a student, what things should I learn to do that?

[sleek egret]

well, you should learn how to program

you also need to learn how to communicate well (both on the listening and speaking sides)

learning how to sell yourself will be helpful in getting gigs and the basics of accounting/taxes will be helpful in keeping you out of jail for tax evasion

[sleek egret]

ask them if they really want to be a wage slave

[near ocean]

Whats the alternative

[sleek egret]

the alternative is to become an evil capitalist exploiter of the proletariat

[steep stratus]

Python is soo laggy on my pc

[sleek egret]

python has no lag

[steep stratus]

I have a program with 200 lines of code it takes Vs code soo long to run it

[sleek egret]

that's a vscode problem, not a python problem

[smoky quest]

Hi! This is the wrong channel for that. You may want to check #❓｜how-to-get-help

[steep stratus]

Oh shoot my bad

I am on mobile so I am not used to discord mobile I only use it for vc

[peak halo]

I don't know a single person who has done this. If getting a degree isn't something you are willing or able to do, your efforts would be better spent pursuing a different career type.

[gilded valley]

I've heard of one person who did this, and the way they did it was by hanging around the Google brain offices since they were 15

[peak halo]

could there have been additional nepotistic elements to this?

[gilded valley]

I would guess so - at the very least, having the opportunity to hang around with some of the best researchers in the field whilst in high school isn't exactly an option open to most people

[sleek egret]

employers in "data science" or "machine learning" typically want masters and PhD degrees. getting in without even a bachelors will be very difficult.

[sleek egret]

who you know always matters at least a little for pretty much everything in life. if nothing else, it provides introductions. perhaps it's not fair, but it's how life works.

[silk raft]

Data Science has so many broad applications. Figuring out a niche or specialization might make it more feasible. Unless you are specifically trying to become a researcher many company DS departments aren't leveraging every aspect of the field. That being said it will still be very difficult to appear qualified to a standard HR department, who typically don't really know the field for the most part.

Definitely good to network and try to find a recommendation.

[sleek egret]

I wonder if someone with less academic credentials could sneak in the back door into a DS team by saying that they love cleaning dirty data?

[gilded valley]

I really don't think it's at all hard to get a job with the job title data scientist

[sleek egret]

because cleaning data is a large part of their work hours. and most generally hate doing it

[gilded valley]

but there's a very real chance that if you don't have the inclination for it, you end up just being a data engineer/general hacker

[silk raft]

I feel like the roles are being split out at this point. ML Engineer/Data Engineer/ML Ops. The frameworks nowadays have really simplified things that were pretty inaccessible just 5 years ago.

[gilded valley]

I don' think it's particularly clear. I think data scientist vs data engineer vs ML engineer is incredibly muddy territory

[sleek egret]

if you don't know stats, it's pretty hard to do good analysis

[dreamy shadow]

Bachelors minimum, sure.

No degree though, I hope you buy a lotto ticket too.

[gilded valley]

Plenty of the value that "data scientists" are generating comes not from the underlying analysis, but purely by making data accessible via dashboards or data cleaning or just by joining it with some other existing data

[dreamy shadow]

That's an analyst role, and I would argue you still need to know stats.

[sleek egret]

back in the day, we called that "data warehousing", or "OLAP" or just ""dashboards" or "databases"

[dreamy shadow]

Otherwise, you get those brain dead charts in "data is beautiful" forums.

[gilded valley]

the whole point is that the territory is muddy - just because you are doing ML in your job, doesn't mean that the value is derived from said ML

[sleek egret]

hah, I always wanted to be ridiculed by those folks

[gilded valley]

Having a good understanding of data visualisation is pretty key for doing data science

[dreamy shadow]

There are too many charts that just look good, but tell you literally nothing.

[sleek egret]

here's the thing... many kids think "ML" or "AI" or "data science" is simply learning a library API

they imagine "learning ML" to be equivalent to "learning django" or "learning react"

[gilded valley]

Agree - this is very prevalent

[sleek egret]

so the question is this: should they be corrected or encouraged?

[dreamy shadow]

Just sit in #data-science-and-ml for a few days. How do I do "X thing that requires math background" without knowing math?

[sleek egret]

the data scientist is the guy who should be making the case "we should be reporting the mode, not the mean or median because of X, Y and Z". any idiot can call the relevant function. it's choosing and knowing why that matters.

IMO, of course

[gilded valley]

Plenty of people would argue that that's the job of data analysts, and that data scientists should be building out models

[sleek egret]

then I would argue that "data scientist" isn't an actual job, that's just a coder

[gilded valley]

I think data scientist just means different things to different people

[dreamy shadow]

No, then I think you don't fully understand the DS job role.

[sleek egret]

lol, you're such a peacemaker

[gilded valley]

who are you saying this to?

[gilded valley]

I think there's a very real chance you're the first person to ever say that to me

[sleek egret]

if it makes you feel any better, this is also a peacemaker => https://irongatearmory.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/M1280L-Decorated-Colt-Peacemaker-with-4.75-inch-barrel_01.jpg

[dreamy shadow]

To this statement. DS role itself in a company is more of solving a business problem from business side using analytics/modeling.

The problem is companies are calling analyst roles & ML engineer/ Data engineer "Data scientists" as well.

[gilded valley]

Surely analytics is for analysts?

[dreamy shadow]

Data Scientist is a senior role, it requires analyst skills as the minimum.

[sleek egret]

they used to call summing up web hit logs, "analytics" too 🙂

[gilded valley]

Data scientist is not a senior-only role, most of the world would disagree with you

[sleek egret]

yeah, most DS's are individual contributors who get their hands dirty, so to speak

[dreamy shadow]

No, it definitely is a senior role. Just take a look job descriptions. They require a minimum of 3-5 years experience in doing analyst type work first.

[sleek egret]

but in the end, isn't the "science of data" just statistics?

[delicate bane]

its the same issue with some companies using the title of software developers for anything and everything

[gilded valley]

ok. I open an incognito window, google search "data scientist jobs" and the first one I see asks only for an MSc and sets no requirement for experience. The next one is explicitly junior data scientist.

[sleek egret]

no, but it's sometimes a concentration

you need to understand that the term "data science" didn't even exist 10 years ago

we typically called people doing that "analysts" or something similar

[dreamy shadow]

Junior data scientist is basically an analyst with job progression. The MSc IS experience. If you read, it's often: BSc + 3-5 years, OR MS w/ 1-2 years OR PHd.

[gilded valley]

the average Years of Experience for data scientists and machine learning specialists is lower than pretty much every other job in the Stack Overflow survey https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2022/#work-employment

[sleek egret]

I'm just gonna use "data scientist" to hire people to write reports so they can feel happier they have a hip and fancy job title

no, typically most serious AI/ML researchers are people with CS or Math PhD's with AI/ML concentrations

[gilded valley]

Data Scientist being senior-only role is not even close to something that the world has agreed on

[dreamy shadow]

Do you mean YoE for coding experience?

[delicate bane]

right there is a good chunk of DS only doing more analyst work, but i think it would be good if we dont discount the ones that are putting models into production as well, i.e. Recommender Systems for ecommerce, etc.

[dreamy shadow]

Companies literally do this. Hence why the DS is so muddied now.

[gilded valley]

no - years of professional experience is what the question is asking

[sleek egret]

I'm happy to be using the old consulting mantra "if you're not part of the solution, there's lots of money to be made being part of the problem"

[peak halo]

I wonder if that's a result of more DS/ML positions being created, and students who went to university specifically to get those positions then entering the work force.

[sleek egret]

yes, it's very common. the leading employer of math PhD's is finance

[dreamy shadow]

Where specifically? Sorry, I don't see it on the website. Must have missed it?

I see -> Experience -> Year coding -> Years coding professionally,

[sleek egret]

and there, you will almost certainly be proving your theories with code

[dreamy shadow]

Where is that chart under? On the sidebar

[sleek egret]

why is the avg yrs experience cap out at 16.5 years? that's agism, I tell you!

[gilded valley]

Here's the link with the anchor - I found it by scrolling https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2022/#section-salary-salary-and-experience-by-developer-type

[gilded valley]

I think this is likely. There's hordes of college students (or I guess grads now) who want to go into ML because they think it's super high paying or will give them superpowers

[peak halo]

does it not?
fuck

[dreamy shadow]

I'm guessing it's dragged down by being lumped with ML specialist

[sleek egret]

it does not

[delicate bane]

what should we do stel

[summer roost]

it's also just a brand new job title. "Data scientist" and "machine learning engineer" are positions that didn't exist until the 2010s.

[gilded valley]

it seems a reach to say "data scientist" is a senior position but "ML specialist" isn't

[sleek egret]

neither of those are "senior"

[dreamy shadow]

Except when I look at ML specialist jobs, they pay significantly less.

[summer roost]

either of them can be.

[dreamy shadow]

Unless ML Specialist is more of ML Engineering.

[gilded valley]

yes, but Skyglow is saying that Data Scientist is a senior-only position, which is not something the majority of the world would agree with

[sleek egret]

I suspect that's because the bulk of those "ML" jobs are just people who feed data into models developed/tuned by actual ML/AI experts with multiple PhD's in the field

[delicate bane]

yeah i think as more time passes, job titles will probably become more specialized like how we have frontend engineer, etc.

[sleek egret]

lol, what we used to call "designers"

[delicate bane]

hey someone has to fine-tune those massive models to fit the company's niche use case

[sleek egret]

I remember when most web UI people came from the ad and design industry. they considered themselves "creatives".

[summer roost]

designers are UI/UX people, not frontend engineers.

[sleek egret]

same difference. most of those designers learned enough HTML/CSS/JS to get by

[mortal wedge]

There was a hilarious tweet I just saw of someone who did AI art saying they were inspired by "[Artist_Name]" and wanted to become more like them. They artist responded "If you want to become more like me you could learn how to draw"

[sleek egret]

ooh, snap

[dreamy shadow]

And, I say this because job descriptions require a minimum experience, or in lieu of experience, an advance degree is needed.

[sleek egret]

how many people actually learn more advanced stat and math on the job though?

[mortal wedge]

It's great that Python lets people with no experience use some pretty advanced tools. It's terrible that Python lets people with no experience use some pretty advanced tools.

[summer roost]

"Most"? The people I know who called themselves "designers" did mockups and wireframes, but never used HTML or CSS, and certainly not JS.

[sleek egret]

if you join the army, they'll let your 18 yr old punk ass drive a $3mil tank

[gilded valley]

An advanced degree != professional experience. Not all job descriptions require this.

This does not match my experience, or the results of my cursory google.

And even if they did, the fact that's what JDs say only shows that there is demand for senior data scientists

[mortal wedge]

Huh, I was about to say me, but tbh I'm not sure if it's me learning new concepts on the job or remembering stuff I learned in college. Probably some of both.

[silk raft]

He could offer to teach him GANs

[mortal wedge]

Typically what I see are that the years of experience companies are asking for is different depending on what degree you have. 6 years for bachelors, 4 years for masters, 2 years for PhD

[dreamy shadow]

An advanced degree != professional experience. Sure, except every company treats it as such.

[gilded valley]

They absolutely do not

[sleek egret]

some do for undergrad and masters. but I rarely see anyone equating a PhD to x years of experience

[mortal wedge]

I'm not sure if every company does, but a lot of companies treat having a more advanced degree as equivalent to some years of experience. As I mentioned above, I see that pattern extremely commonly.

[mortal wedge]

I do, but maybe it's because I'm in a field where that matters. (R&D)

[sleek egret]

honestly, we just don't want to spend time teaching math to employees

[delicate bane]

ah chaos you missed my post earlier about someone moving from traditional stem to tech. i think you wouldve enjoyed it

[mortal wedge]

Feel free to link me!

[dreamy shadow]

Microsoft's posting:

[delicate bane]

#career-advice message

[mortal wedge]

It's not just about not wanting to spend time teaching math to employees. It's about it just being ineffective. I can't teach linear algebra to someone with no math background. I just can't.

[sleek egret]

heh, I recall working with a guy who moved from chem engineering to become a programmer. he barely knew what he was doing yet would continuously denigrate software development as "easy" and "any monkey can do this"

[mortal wedge]

My boss asked me to and it just was a spectacularly bad idea

[sleek egret]

he had a masters, of course. it was quite annoying.

[delicate bane]

thats a big oof

[gilded valley]

your claim is that every company treats it as such, my company does not treat it as such

[delicate bane]

what ended up happening

[mortal wedge]

Haha nice. Tbh, a lot of companies sees physicists as computer science heavy

[sleek egret]

don't get me wrong, the guy was very smart and I'm sure after a few years he became a very good developer.

[delicate bane]

yeah but no one wants to work with someone like him

[dreamy shadow]

Most companies do. Especially large companies.

[mortal wedge]

I'll repeat what one of my professors said. Anyone can write code that a computer can understand. A good developer writes code a human can understand.

[mortal wedge]

FWIW I agree, maybe not every company but it was an extremely common pattern that companies ask for less YoE the more advanced your degree is

[sleek egret]

sure, but it's not just that. it's sort of like "any idiot can write a story. that doesn't mean writing good novels is easy."

[dreamy shadow]

I literally see this ALL the time when I apply. Small companies are more likely to pull the "Data engineering = Data Scientist" bs

[sleek egret]

hmm, all this is telling me that the next time I need to hire, I'm just gonna put up ads with different titles for the same position

[mortal wedge]

No, I think it's the difference between a hobbyist's code and a professional, though.

[summer roost]

writing readable/maintainable code is much, much harder than writing code that gets the job done.

[sleek egret]

I like telling interns "just because it works doesn't mean it's right"

many are very confused by that statement

[summer roost]

definitely not.

[balmy spade]

Of course they can learn how to do it, if they want to learn.

[summer roost]

learning to write readable/maintainable code requires reading a tremendous amount of code. No amount of writing code can give you that skill.

[sleek egret]

what if you're OCD?

[summer roost]

I don't understand the premise of the question

[dreamy shadow]

I like reading repos to get ideas on how I can improve my code, and identify what not to use in my code lol

[sleek egret]

some people are just naturally predisposed to favor neatness and organization.

[near ocean]

For them, not for others

[summer roost]

neither neatness nor organization imply maintainability

[smoky quest]

And to have experienced the pain of maintaining and refactoring an existing code base

[sleek egret]

it's certainly better than messy and disorganized

[mortal wedge]

Well, it's not just that. It's also knowing the different practices/standards. As far as maintainability, as I think godlygeek is getting at, is knowing how to write code that can be more easily expanded/maintained. Modular design, test driven development, etc. etc.

[smoky quest]

There is a say about being able to transmit knowledge but being unable to transmit experience

[dreamy shadow]

Seeing insurance codes being displayed as a float is pain.

[sleek egret]

agreed, it's not just that. I'm just saying it helps

[mortal wedge]

Sure

I think it's a skill that can be developed, but I think it's similarly a skill often overlooked. And may just take a lot of experience.

[sleek egret]

OMG, that actually happened on a system you worked on? lol

[dreamy shadow]

[summer roost]

take object-oriented design for an example: learning what a class is, and what instance and class methods are, and what instance data and class data is, takes maybe a week. Learning how to draw the boundaries between different classes, what responsibilities should go into which class, what interface each class should provide, etc, is a skill that takes many years to polish.

[dreamy shadow]

I'm supposed to assist another data scientist, and the sample output table... sigh

Hur Dur why doesn't this table match? -Month from now.

[sleek egret]

and you never stop improving. but I think that's because it's so context dependent and relies on domain knowledge

[sleek egret]

I dare you to tell them to store it as decimal type in the db 🙂

[dreamy shadow]

[pine vector]

eyy can you help me?
im starting with python and at the time of reading a csv it doesnt split into columns

[dreamy shadow]

It's bad enough how they joined the different excel sheets together.

[sleek egret]

1. you should provide a bit more context and even the code, 2) this channel is about careers, not coding help

[delicate bane]

you are looking for #❓｜how-to-get-help

[dreamy shadow]

Seeing chatgpt being used in the other channels makes my eyes twitch. Edit: I'm not a cyclops

[sleek egret]

just encourage it. the more the young'uns use chatgpt, the less skilled they will be. thus less competition for us.

[pine vector]

yes, but nobody answer me there

[sleek egret]

try #python-discussion then

[pine vector]

can i chat you?

[sleek egret]

only the weak ones

[delicate bane]

something something are you above the api or below the api

[sleek egret]

be the api

[pastel delta]

It’s not that I’m unable to do it or unwilling, it’s simply that I don’t agree that getting college is necessarily the best way to learn how to be better at programming.

Im sure we agree on a lot of things that are required to land a good job. Hard work, proficiency, grit, good attitude, and I think that a degree is a great path to do it.

I’m asking and still looking for these people because I know they exist. (Wether u know any or not is another question). And based off of what the CHRO of IBM, or first ever Chief of Data Scientist says about good taken not requiring a degree- I’d be very aware that your language saying I should pursue a different career could be understandable, good-natured, but not entirely informed.

[dreamy shadow]

Not until someone brings an viable* alternative.

[summer roost]

I think Twitter has failed. Whether the company will continue to exist, 🤷‍♂️ - but it's clearly no longer as relevant as it was a year ago, and it probably never will be again.

[sleek egret]

you are correct that college will not help, per se, at getting better at programming. but that's because they don't consider that their job. university is about learning the theory. the why's, not the how's.

[balmy spade]

that I don’t agree that getting college is necessarily the best way to learn how to be better at programming.

It's not. College is the socially normalized way to prove you have experience when applying for job while you have no working experience. It's also where you learn a broad range of soft-skills.

[dreamy shadow]

Also, piece of paper to check off.

[sleek egret]

but more importantly, given that in modern societies some 60%+ of students go to university, a bachelors has essentially become the new baseline. employers view it as a proof point that you are able to do assignments and complete things without your teachers/parents hovering over you.

[balmy spade]

As someone who is in the technology industry with no college degree; sure I did it. Would I suggest someone else do it? Not if they could have an easier path.

[dreamy shadow]

Come to think of it, I should just suggest don't go to college too. Less competition for DS jobs.

[sleek egret]

moreover, the name/brand of the university you attended acts as a social status marker. which is very important just after school. finally, the people you meet there can be very helpful in your later career. contacts are not very important in the early years after you finish university, but they gradually become very very important over the years.

[sleek egret]

There are, of course exceptions. People who have done very well and accomplished lofty goals without university. BUT, always remember, they are exceptions. I have great respect for such folks. But for every big success without a degree there are a dozen failures. it's a tough road to hoe, why make your life more difficult than it must be?

[pastel delta]

To be fair to u I will say I agree that getting a degree would be the more assured route. I don’t disagree with that at all. It’s just I’m wondering how to do it another way. I like the college route, but just not for myself

[sleek egret]

The other way is a dice roll

[dreamy shadow]

Dice roll? More like those casino slot machines.

[smoky quest]

There isn't much of any alternatives.
They would be more painful and less rewarding

[balmy spade]

Networking. Of all the degree-less folks I know, myself included, our "in" was through who we got to know. You get past the gatekeeping of HR by knowing someone who says "go interview that person". From there, it's the standard road.

[summer roost]

I think that's true, but only for the very top echelon. Nobody cares much if you went to Penn State vs Ohio State vs Florida State, but they certainly do care if you went to MIT or UPenn or the like.

[pastel delta]

Yeah I just hate the idea of taking classes that I don’t think are worth it 😦 I wish I could just b line with self-study, hackathons, good portfolio etc.

[dreamy shadow]

Apparently Phoenix university is a meme.

[balmy spade]

I've never asked where someone went to school. I've been told where people went to school a lot.

[sleek egret]

We don't know you. so perhaps you have the drive, self-discipline and charisma to make your own way despite the handicap of not having a degree. but you need to be honest with yourself. IMO, if you're not exceptional, that path is very very high risk. why take that risk when even a random semi-smart kid can go to university and, if they major in some tech oriented thing, be almost assured of entering the top 20% of society. and if you're exceptional, you'll do even better!

[sleek egret]

right, that's what I meant

[delicate bane]

bro im dead 💀

[silk raft]

Are you just wanting to start earning money? Where would you place you skills currently?

[pastel delta]

Yeah I did work as a research analyst from a company for a year and a half. No degree, but since I worked 2 full times jobs that was hard for me- n I did work with people who worked at Bloomberg, Goldman’s etc. so I’m not sure if I can do that, with data science and machine learning but im willing to endure a lot of pain to find out

[sleek egret]

It turns out that when you're chatting people up at parties being able to discuss the historical context of something or the shift in art styles of the early 1900's or why foucolt is such an awesome writer helps you form better relationships. and relationships are the key driver for business and society.

but maybe I'm a weird techie in that my favorite classes in university were things like history, philosophy, etc.

[pastel delta]

Yeah i just wanna have atleast an entry level job in 2 years. And if I end up needing to go to college then I’m all for it. But I’d like to skip the college part if possible

[balmy spade]

I'll just toss out this cautionary word for you; self-study that matters includes hundreds of hours on topics that really feel like "this just isn't worth it". Not going to school isn't a shortcut around pouring the time, effort, and energy into learning everything you'd have learned in a class room.

[dreamy shadow]

Think of college as an investment.

[sleek egret]

think further ahead. where will you be in 30 years? being well rounded helps you become a better leader and manager

[pastel delta]

Lmao I’m hitting the dunning Kruger effect for sure

[sleek egret]

it can't hurt. but it doesn't replace university

[near ocean]

It can hurt if you pay a bajillion for some unaccredited bootcamp you saw advertised on Facebook

[dreamy shadow]

Bootcamp's magic is definitely wearing off.

[delicate bane]

idk if you should really generalize to the whole server. bootcamps (that arent predatory) imo have their place and are especially good for individuals already with experience looking to transition to tech. apprenticeships, if available, are probably a better path for those without college education.

[sleek egret]

I can only give you my perspective. but i think of a "bootcamp" as equivalent to a class or two at university, albeit focused on more practical aspects of software dev.

[balmy spade]

From my experience this server would rather guide folks down the more assured road than let them drive off a cliff. Too many think that boot-camp == shortcut to skill. It's not. Tens of hundreds of hours of practice is the shortcut to skill.

[pastel delta]

Yeah I get what ur saying. I think that degrees and continuous self learning is essential.

[dreamy shadow]

As I quote from a friend: "Why TF are these boot camp people applying to a full stack java developer role?"

[summer roost]

I tell people that they're the 3rd best option. The best option for someone with work experience in a related domain is usually to try to transfer into a more technical job while staying with their current employer, leveraging their existing domain expertise to acquire tech expertise. The best option for someone who can afford the time and cost of university is a university degree (BS, BA, or AS, in decreasing order of preference). If someone can't do either of those routes, a boot camp is probably their best option.

[sleek egret]

the thing to understand is that universities are not trade schools. they do not think of their primary purpose to help you prepare for/get a job in X field. they think of themselves as providing kids with a broad education to help shape the leaders of tomorrow. once in a while, it actually even works.

[pastel delta]

😂 that won’t be me. But that’s a funny quote

[balmy spade]

I'd wonder why your friend is handling applications.

[sleek egret]

it's sort of the diff between being able to do long division and knowing why and when to divide

the mechanics are pretty easy. any monkey can learn to code. hell, we even call them "code monkeys" right?

[spark cobalt]

A lot of bootcamps don't teach things right.

[balmy spade]

A lot of schools don't teach things "right".

[spark cobalt]

Fair enough

[pastel delta]

Yeah I’m not tryna stir the pot too much with this subject. I do see the value in encouraging someone to go to the more reliable path that includes college

[dreamy shadow]

They're the director. The company is top down to avoid wasting developer's time on handling applications. So, anything below the minimum requirements gets thrown out. Bachelors + X YoE.

[sleek egret]

no one thinks of what you're saying as "stirring the pot". your topics are exactly what this channel is for!

[near ocean]

I would consider this a red flag

[balmy spade]

The director has that open attitude while reviewing pieces of paper? Yikes from me!

[delicate bane]

there are some bootcamps that actually might be worth the investment but they tend to be on the longer side + they have a good reputation/partnership with some companies

[mellow vigil]

Hi Guys is that good to start learning more about all the basics by using python interactive. I just bough tim buchalka python masterclass on udemy. I think that is more complex. Have you tried that course? I'm a network engineer and i have a bit understanding and projects about python networking. So I need to more develop my python skills. Thank you for your suggestion.

[mortal wedge]

It's offtopic, but... basically Twitter was never super profitable. It had a small profit margin that relied on advertisers for profit. Elon took out a bunch of loans to buy the company, then placed the burden of paying those loans back ON THAT COMPANY. That completely obliterated the profit margin. At that stage imo it's already "failed".

The dumpster fire that has happened following that is just adding flammables to the burning pile.

[dreamy shadow]

Obviously, this is just talk between friends?

There are tons of applications.

[sleek egret]

I don't know about that class in particular but be aware that there are lots of python modules that implement the details of various network protocols. using those modules makes life much easier.

twitter already succeeded

[delicate bane]

what rmah said. we just see a lot of individuals coming in and saying how they can make it without college...i mean im sure some can but that isnt always the best option for everyone

[sleek egret]

are you asking if twitter will soon become highly profitable?

[mortal wedge]

There may be a set of circumstances to fix it. They'd probably have to declare bankruptcy, restructure, regrow advertiser relationships.... But right now it's a sinking ship and I can't think of anything that would right it.

[sleek egret]

IMO, that seems unlikely

[mortal wedge]

I'm not even getting into the controversy of Elon's actions that have made his only profit source (advertisers) flee the platform. It's also obvious regarding the stories coming out from employees that he has no idea how to run a software company

[delicate bane]

actually id be interested in a metric counting how many times this topic is approached in this channel / week

[dreamy shadow]

Twitter founders taking their money and ran

[sleek egret]

I would have too if I were them

[mortal wedge]

But no, Twitter was never highly profitable and the pay for blue checkmark doesn't even cover 1% of his yearly debt payments

[smoky quest]

They have to. They have a duty to the shareholders

[mortal wedge]

He tried to recoup some of his "expenses" by firing all his staff, but I think he's figuring out that a lot of those staff existed for a reason

[sleek egret]

in fairness, a lot of them were just fat too

[mortal wedge]

Ergo, it was already a bad move to saddle debt on Twitter given its thin profit margin, everything else is just a catastrophic dumpster fire

[mellow vigil]

Yeah which one should I get dive in? More complex with a combination or just one topic at a time while practicing? For example just a lists, dict should I practice or just do combination with while, for etc.

[mortal wedge]

Firing staff because you don't have a profitable business model succeeds in the short term, but not the long term

[sleek egret]

data structures and control flow/algorithims are two sides of the same coin. you need to understand both.

[mortal wedge]

Twitter is doing so bad it's even taking Tesla with it. But I apologize, got pretty far off topic. Beyond "Don't go to work at Twitter"

[dreamy shadow]

I would work at twitter. Great to add to resume.

[sleek egret]

what do they call twitter employees? twits? chicks?

[pastel delta]

Thanks. I guess I said that because it is hard to find people like y’all (hard for me anyways) who can stay composed n talk about this stuff openly. So really thanks y’all

[dreamy shadow]

LOL, not going to say what I'm thinking.

[smoky quest]

Not in the same way

[sleek egret]

apple is a money making machine

[mortal wedge]

Nah. Some tech companies did over extend or made choices during the pandemic that they have to course correct on.

[dreamy shadow]

Tech bubble is bursting, but Twitter is more like someone drilled a hole in the boat.

[smoky quest]

The big tech in general were trimming the fat and gearing up for a possible recession / market issues. Twitter was just a dumpster fire

[mellow vigil]

My main goal is to create my own database by using python with GUI. I think i need more understanding about basic in python before I move to tkinter then mysql. So frustrating when I used my current online course because it has very complex and the videos has too very long.

[sleek egret]

bursting? AAPL was up +2.8% today

[mortal wedge]

Amazon is doing alright. Amazon delivery/shopping actually has a really thin profit margin as well. Amazon makes all their money from AWS and seemingly just enjoys undercutting everyone else to maintain most of the market cap for their online marketplace

[sleek egret]

I'm afraid there's no real way around it. most of software development isn't exactly difficult. it's just that there are so many little bits of knowledge you have to learn and integrate into a whole.

[summer roost]

No

[sleek egret]

so it takes time and practice. you just gotta slog through it 🙂

[mortal wedge]

I can't say why big tech was expecting a recession or are all course correcting at the same time. It may be because people are starting to get out more and do things and are less online centric like they were during the pandemic

But again, they have a solid business model, they're just course correcting.

[sleek egret]

a recession is a recession. nearly all industries are effected by it.

[mortal wedge]

Right, but most of the recession preparation we're seeing right now is from Big Tech. I don't know what data they are looking at to predict that. I don't know if they're thinking it's specific to big tech or will be across the board. I just know what they're doing, not why they are doing it.

[summer roost]

if by "going down" you meant "are off their peak", then yes, AMZN is "going down". If by "going down" you mean "are in trouble", then no - AMZN is doing as well right now as it was in 2019.

[sleek egret]

The recession started 9 months ago. then ended last quarter. if this quarter also sees a negative GDP growth print, we could be in for the 2nd leg of a double-dip recession

[mortal wedge]

Amazon experienced major gains during the pandemic for obvious reasons. As we're ending/entering a different stage, the paradigm is shifting

[sleek egret]

keep up with the economic times, dude! 🙂

[mortal wedge]

Well, a lot of big tech companies are either downsizing or freezing hiring/development. As I mentioned, I couldn't tell you precisely why they're making that decision. But tech-related as opposed to tech-centric companies are not doing that, for whatever reason.

[pastel delta]

what do u think we're shifting too?

[sleek egret]

retail sales grew +7.6% this year so there's a good chance no double-dip recession is on the horizon

[summer roost]

fewer online purchases, more in-person purchases, borrowing money is more expensive

[sleek egret]

oh wait, that's +7.6% for Nov and Dec

[dreamy shadow]

Sales like in $ adjusted for inflation?

We're about to see even more manufacturing issues outta China, now that Covid fully hit them.

[mortal wedge]

I think I can answer that by giving an infamous example. Pelaton. During the pandemic they experienced MASSIVE profit. Everyone wanted the feel of going to their fitness classes and were willing to pay a premium for it. They projected continuous growth and invested their profit into inventory. Then the pandemic "ended". Suddenly, they're stuck with a ton of inventory and demand has plummeted as people are going back to gyms. It's a cautionary tale and other companies are trying to make sure they don't fall into this trap.

[sleek egret]

I don't think so. also, while amazon is indeed a retail giant, remember that 80% of retail sales are still brick & mortar.

[spark cobalt]

Lot of companies overhired. I think most of the layoffs happening now are just bandwagon stuff to deal with overhiring, with the excuse of economic reasons.

[mortal wedge]

I'm not on the board for those companies, so I would just be speculating.

[pastel delta]

ahh thats interesting

[spark cobalt]

Maybe another year of recession and we'll see some fun stuff

[sleek egret]

big tech was especially guilty of over-hiring tech types

[dreamy shadow]

I'm just wondering if the numbers are adjusted. Saying people spent more, while certain items doubled in price doesn't mean much.

[sleek egret]

Again, I don't think so they were inflation adjusted

[mortal wedge]

I have a colleague at Playstation, they definitely overhired but instead of doing layoffs are just doing a hiring freeze and only replacing key personell. Actually I can't say definitely overhired. As I said, I'm speculating

I don't think I've seen any press releases from big tech saying why they're performing these actions

[dreamy shadow]

I read somewhere about hiring more people than bare minimum so it doesn't cost company as much if they need the capacity.

[pastel delta]

is there a channel to ask about portfolio/project advice?

[sleek egret]

most big tech are highly inefficient. they were swimming in cash so discipline was not required.

[mortal wedge]

Sure, I think it would be okay to ask here if it's portfolio related or general directional advice. If it's advice on a specific project, probably better to ask in pygen or in a help channel

[spark cobalt]

A go-to if you don't know is always the off-topic channels.

[smoky quest]

It's also there is more value in growth

[mortal wedge]

I do think tech is just trying to not become the next Pelatons. Steam for instance also made BANK during the pandemic

Steam, Amazon, and Pelaton were top earners during the pandemic

[sleek egret]

apple was the top earner

[dreamy shadow]

Apple aggressively advertising iphone 14 in Atlanta Georgia lol

[sleek egret]

$100B/yr in profits. that's a lotta moolah. if it was in $100 bills. stacked on top of each other, it would reach 100km into the sky

[mortal wedge]

Huh. I didn't hear anything about apple. Wonder what they did/how they did it. Maybe more people were developing/buying apps?

[sleek egret]

they continued to rake in $bil after $bil day week after week

[pastel delta]

thanks @mortal wedge @spark cobalt

[sleek egret]

profits. revenues were multiples times that

[mortal wedge]

Sometimes it's as innocent as expecting current conditions will continue and not reacting quickly enough to market conditions.

[sleek egret]

sometimes it's just mismanagement. sometimes it's execs trying to build out their dept headcount (and thus status/power)... sometimes it's to deny talent to competition

[smoky quest]

more people means more growth which means more market and eventually more revenue. Plus cash is cheap

[sleek egret]

he said "over hire" not "hire a lot" 🙂

[summer roost]

big tech hired talent not because they needed them, but because they wanted to deprive their competitors of that talent. Lots of acquihires are specifically to kill a competing product, for instance.

[pastel delta]

its also interesting to see how many companies are just deemed successful because of bull runs. Definitely saw cases of mal-practice in the crypto industry

[mortal wedge]

Meta has entered the chat

[sleek egret]

yeah, that's a commonly held belief and I think there's some truth to it

[mortal wedge]

Meta has made no effort to hide that they buy out competitors on the regular

[dreamy shadow]

Just be google, and buy your competition.

[sleek egret]

who makes the best VR headset?

[mortal wedge]

Some guy nobody has ever heard of because nobody hired him because he chose to self-teach instead of getting a degree 🙂

[spark cobalt]

I've only tried the ones from Meta so dunno

[pastel delta]

id say Oculus

[spark cobalt]

The new ones are really really nice. Whatever they called them. Having Meta friends is cool

[sleek egret]

is oculus from meta?

[spark cobalt]

Just it not being enclosed is kind of edgy imo. That's one thing they lacked.

[silk raft]

This is a Palmer Luckey joke?

[mortal wedge]

I mean, for SBF to be fair that was a bit of a special case because he was essentially a scammer. But crypto as a whole is a bubble. For reasons

[mortal wedge]

It's a callback to a common topic in this channel, whether self-taught is better than getting a degree for your career (it's almost always not)

[spark cobalt]

Yes.

[sleek egret]

wilder and adrianvon: gracias

[pastel delta]

also 3AC. doesn't seem like any of the older companies had any of these problems tho. yeah def a special case

[dreamy shadow]

Go to min security jail for 5 years, come back out with all the money, rinse and repeat

[sleek egret]

he didn't "steal" the money as in take it for himself. the money is gone. lost on speculative trades by alameda

[dreamy shadow]

Oh, then he just dumb. lmao

[sleek egret]

so when he gets out of jail, he won't have "all the money"

[pastel delta]

umm. okay lol

[mortal wedge]

Most financial institutions/banks are highly regulated and for good reason. The problem is that lawmakers don't understand crypto so there's essentially no regulation. Regulation hasn't caught up with the industry.

[sleek egret]

Yes and no. it's not quite that simple. in the US for example, there's a fight on between the SEC and the CFTC about who gets to regulate crypto

[silk raft]

Agreed, but since we are on the topic. There are certain markets that have more areas for new growth and might have better opportunities if you are an early adopter....DO NOT THINK I MEAN BLOCKCHAIN.

[summer roost]

he allowed Alameda to borrow an unlimited amount of investor money without any controls, though.

[mortal wedge]

I mean, if you give me $1000 to hold on to and I go gamble it all away, does it really matter to you what I spent it on?

[sleek egret]

that, among other reasons, has kept sane regulations from being adapted

[mortal wedge]

Sure, but I think most people are bad at assessing what those markets are

[sleek egret]

yes, and that is both unethical and illegal. and why he will go to jail.

[pastel delta]

what markets r u thinking of?

[mortal wedge]

I was oversimplifying. But yes

[silk raft]

Haha, start doing some research.

[pastel delta]

hopefully lol. i give him a 50-50 that he might not

[mortal wedge]

Just a reminder, we are getting wildly off-topic, lol

[sleek egret]

I'm not excusing anything that SBF did. my firm lost millions of $'s on the FTX debacle. if he was on fire in front of me, not only would I not piss on him, I'd add more gasoline.

[sleek egret]

he better hope he does because more than a few shady people lost bank because of FTX

[mortal wedge]

So! I don't know if I mentioned it, but I'll mention it anyway. My company screwed me on a promotion so I went and got an offer and leveraged it to get that promotion, lol. What an exhausting and kind of pointless endeavor.

[sleek egret]

how is that pointless if you got the promotion?

[dreamy shadow]

Wait, you decided to stay?

[mortal wedge]

Pointless as in if they just gave me the promotion we wouldn't have had to go through all of this

[mortal wedge]

Yeah. Tbh, I don't think I'm the right person to succeed at the new role. I think they need someone with a lot more mobile/web app development experience, even if they told me I can just learn on the job.

[summer roost]

that maneuver is likely to leave a lasting negative impression of you. You'll probably wind up needing to switch jobs soon, anyway.

[pastel delta]

what's do u specialize in if its not web development?

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, honestly I would have suggested to leave.

[mortal wedge]

Yeah. I know. I'm going to try to keep my ear to the ground. My direct manager understands though. He's the one I who suggested I leverage an offer to get the promotion anyways.

[sleek egret]

lol, webdev is like 10% of the software world, brah

[mortal wedge]

I specialize in software research and development in the life sciences industry.

So I may have... lightly flambe'd some bridges, but my direct manager is okay with it so that's good enough for now. He's the one who's going to matter if I want a professional reference from the company anyway.

[sleek egret]

so you guys create living abominations like dr moreau?

[mortal wedge]

In my current role I do neuroscience research, to aid in the diagnosis and treatment of a variety of clinical/non-clinical issues.

[sleek egret]

issues like the insanity caused by crossing man and beast?

come on, work with me here!

[pastel delta]

u have any thoughts on neuralink lol?

[mortal wedge]

Seems scammy/pipedreamy right now tbh

[spark cobalt]

Can be good, can be bad. Have to wait and see.

[delicate bane]

all i heard was blockchain. summon all the web3 developers

[summer roost]

He talked about electric cars. I don't know anything about cars, so when people said he was a genius I figured he must be a genius.

Then he talked about rockets. I don't know anything about rockets, so when people said he was a genius I figured he must be a genius.

Now he talks about software. I happen to know a lot about software & Elon Musk is saying the stupidest shit I've ever heard anyone say, so when people say he's a genius I figure I should stay the hell away from his cars and rockets.

[delicate bane]

bro you decided to stay..? i—

[spark cobalt]

The amount of Teslas I see in the bay...

[mortal wedge]

Yes, publicly and to great hilarity

[mortal wedge]

Yeah. Now that I got my promotion, I don't have an urgent need to leave, so I can take my time to look for roles that are more ideal for me.

[pastel delta]

what parts of neuroscience do u think people should watch out for in the near future? i don't know much about it but the idea of neuroscience fascinates me

[summer roost]

https://www.livemint.com/technology/tech-news/elon-musk-s-day-1-at-twitter-engineers-asked-to-print-out-their-code-for-review-11667033793158.html

[delicate bane]

i guess that is one way to look at it...

[mortal wedge]

I think we're going to see something similar to 23 and me, but for brain health and brain type. Neuroscience is still a relatively unexplored frontier in that there's still so much we don't know about the brain. For now we're still doing exploratory stuff, but I think it has a lot of potential. What we discover will guide what sort of exciting products could come from the discoveries

[balmy spade]

Personally, I giggled when the chances of you retaining your job was being linked to your total lines of code. What a fire.

[summer roost]

https://twitter.com/schrep/status/1592556884091088897 also

[mortal wedge]

Or when all management needed to become individual contributors. Or when he asked anyone in the company who knew how to code to fly in and have a meeting with him. Or when he fired half his staff without knowing what any of them did. Or when he threw his engineering team under the bus and they came out and tweeted how wrong he was. Or or or or

[pastel delta]

u think itll help me decide if i should go to college or not?

[mortal wedge]

I highly encourage everyone looking to pursue a computer science career to go to college, if for no other reason than your diploma is what companies are relying on to see if you have the basic qualifications for a position

[spark cobalt]

It'll likely tell you yes. The data holds for college students, there's not much data to reach to anything conclusive for non-college students.

[sleek egret]

That's a management tactic. He knew that lots of those fired were doing their jobs well and were needed.

[pastel delta]

lol that was a joke

[delicate bane]

+1 for the go-to-college metric

[mortal wedge]

That's certainly a... strategy.

[sleek egret]

I've seen such tactics used to good effect before

[mortal wedge]

There is a fundamental problem with saddling a company with debt when it has a thin profit margin. Maybe there's some 3-d chess type strategy for pissing off your primary revenue source (advertisers) and making terrible management decisions. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[sleek egret]

a buddy of mine was a sales manager. he got hired by a firm with a sales problem. his first day, he fired half the sales team (around 6 out of 12 or so, IIRC). then re-organized the rest. along with other shit he did, the now half sized team tripled total sales within 12 months.

sometimes you gotta light an ass under the seats of a complacent organization to get them to accept a new way of doing things

fair? probably not. effective? sometimes. I'm sure other times it's backfired horribly.

[delicate bane]

the question is do you think itll work in this case? the vergecast concluded something similar — and they have a whole person dedicated to covering elon

[mortal wedge]

If there was a way to bet all my money on the failure of Twitter, I would do so without hestitation

[sleek egret]

I have no idea since I've heard very conflicting narratives of what was happening in side twitter. I don't know who to trust.

[mortal wedge]

Well, let's think. Twitter had a small profit margin that was entirely supported by advertisers. What will happen to a company that loses their sole revenue source while also increasing their debt?

[spark cobalt]

I'm just waiting to see. Elon may say the wildest shit about software, but he's not the one writing the code, or building cars, or building rockets so

[sleek egret]

in the end though, does it really matter? say twitter fails and goes bust. say it recovers and favors the right. or is "unbiased". or some mix. does it really matter to people like us?

[sleek egret]

yeah, it annoys me a bit the pedestal that some techies put musk on. it's like they think he's the real life embodiment of Iron Man or something

[summer roost]

a CEO making public proclamations about why their tech sucks is unusual. Being wrong about it is even more unusual. Arguing publicly with engineers who explain to them why it's wrong is even more unusual.

[mortal wedge]

I think Twitter provided a valuable service to groups of people who otherwise would have no voice. Think people in embattled warzones trying to raise awareness of their situation So I'm sad to see that fail. On the other hand, this is such a spectacular disaster watching someone speedrun driving a company into the ground that it's entertaining af

[sleek egret]

if twitter dies, some other service will rise to fill the same need. I have zero doubts about that

[mortal wedge]

THey literally believe that. Honestly, before I knew better I assumed it too and assumed he had some hard earned engineering degree. But he's an econ major.

[summer roost]

did myspace? Did yahoo?

[spark cobalt]

He has years of owning businesses small and large to back him up. I don't think it's necessarily wise to suddenly just ignore that for something we disagree with.

[summer roost]

both still exist, both are irrelevant. I'd say tumblr is in the same situation - or rapidly following that path

[mortal wedge]

All the points I've made have nothing to do with my political views. He's objectively bad at running this company. My thoughts on his politics are separate, and will not be mentioned

[spark cobalt]

Oh I wasn't talking about the politics. I'm talking about the business decisions that were made. The layoffs and whatnot.

[mortal wedge]

Okay. Well, stories from employees at his other companies make a lot of sense. That they had staff basically just for managing him and creatively reinterpreting his asks to be sane.

[silk raft]

Not sure if anyone realizes it but GroupOn is still kicking. I have been reading some rumors about a Tesla margin loan was used for the Twitter deal. Since the stock is tanking there could be some solvency issues.

[spark cobalt]

Doesn't every CEO have those kind of people.

[mortal wedge]

No

[spark cobalt]

Like on a smaller degree I don't know many billionaires that actually tweet the shit they tweet. They all have people that specialize in those aspects to take care of it.

[sleek egret]

I know a couple people who have worked directly for musk. they say he's ... mercurial

[dreamy shadow]

Twitter's PR department is like:

[spark cobalt]

Hope they're doing ok

[summer roost]

they don't exist

[delicate bane]

what an apt description 💀