career-advice

[sleek egret]

gracias for the detailed info

[true harness]

from the company's perspective, if you're willing to lie, you would probably lie again. they don't want that

[lunar citrus]

Yeah I can see that lmao.

[spark cobalt]

Switch companies

Don't lie this time.

[true harness]

first interview
interviewer: so why did you leave your last company?

[spark cobalt]

[lunar citrus]

Now I think it’s safer to keep my mouth shut and just ask for a promotion.

Or maybe not. Even this normal position, im being extremely well paid.

[spark cobalt]

Just pray your employer isn't reading this chat.

[lunar citrus]

Please no lmao

[spark cobalt]

Wait, I'm supposed to have 2 meetings today and one of them isn't on Outlook

[lunar citrus]

Are you from Australia? XD

If yes then, probably 40% chance you might be and if you live in Darwin +10%

[spark cobalt]

2 companies in Darwin. Lemme send a private email to their CEOs real quick.

[potent stratus]

@steel bone answered how he knows ORNL - but overall it's a national lab that's run by contractors on behalf of the DoE - it was initially part of the Manhattan project, and they know have research groups that are somewhat of a cross between academia and industry. your promotions are based on getting research funded and published. most of the big multi-year projects are contracts from govt agencies. lots of people get clearances and work on classified projects. but that's also the side (cybersecurity research) that I know. there are groups that do everything from DAAC to cybersecurity to environmental sciences

[lunar citrus]

Nah mate you’re joking 💀💀

[sleek egret]

Oh, so it's related to the national laboratories in some way?

[lunar citrus]

Okay, are you a 5’6 woman with long straight hair?

[potent stratus]

It is a national lab, yea!

[lunar citrus]

If yes, then I’m deleting my discord account and you will never know my real name

[spark cobalt]

@modern ore How many YOE are you?

[potent stratus]

ORNL = Oak Ridge National Lab

[spark cobalt]

Oh

[sleek egret]

oooooooh

[steel bone]

much better answer, thanks. i only know ORNL through their work with us, but they're much larger.

[lunar citrus]

Okay phewww you’re an intern

My HR has 10 years experience in HR. So I’m safe. And I don’t think she’d be awake at this time

[spark cobalt]

Just do good

[balmy mural]

You can guarantee a return offer by being the best fit for the job

[outer granite]

@spark cobalt What's your YOE?

[spark cobalt]

I only started a couple months ago

[lunar citrus]

When the employer asked for 25 years of experience when you’re 30 years old.

[spark cobalt]

400k?

[potent stratus]

be open to criticism. I've seen interns get offers when they didn't perform the best but seemed genuinely open to learning and criticism. also put in your best effort. if you get stuck on something and ask a question, come with the "I already tried X,Y, and Z, but I'm still struggling with A" - don't just say "help me"

[spark cobalt]

Like I'm getting paid a lot but not 400k a lot

[sleek egret]

don't insult Wilder with that puny low 400k comp

[lunar citrus]

Broooo wtf. No experience and started off with 400k holy plucking shit

[spark cobalt]

Company's growing super fast. Those stocks aboutta go crazy.

[lunar citrus]

That’s not “ good “ mate. That’s tooo crazy lmao.

[spark cobalt]

Stocks are gonna be more than my salary itself

[outer granite]

@spark cobalt Damn, how did you learn SWE?

[spark cobalt]

Junior year of HS was COVID. I grinded every waking hour basically.

What year of college are you btw?

[long merlin]

Hello! I'm new Here!

[lunar citrus]

My company actually has the same coding test for every interview. And only a few of them were able to solve it.

If they did, they’d instantly get a project leader position which is so stupid.

[spark cobalt]

Ah kk. Working on a rather large scale project with a bunch of college kids and helping train them and build them up to work on it. But you already have internships and everything so nvm

[outer granite]

I'm in HSC 2nd year, I'm enrolling in a Python course, I tried to learn previously from YT, didn't quite understood.

[long merlin]

Wait, in which country has HSC?

[potent stratus]

that wildly depends on what your day to day will look like - what do you know about what you're doing? like is your project the main thing you're doing, or will you also be working on ongoing projects they have? are there "intern specific" events or things (ie I had to do toast masters for one internship) that you'll be participating in?

[spark cobalt]

General thing to keep in mind, Youtubers and course creators ended up being better Youtubers and course creators than they are software engineer. Every single big name creator is like: Tech With Tim (only 3 months experience as an intern), Angela (only like half a year of experience.), etc.

[outer granite]

Mostly past British colonies, since Britain has the same system.

[steel bone]

making youtube programming content is exhausting when you have a FT job

[spark cobalt]

Yep.

[outer granite]

How would you advice me to learn?

[long merlin]

I thought only in our country has HSC..

[spark cobalt]

Right now working like 3-4 hours on the side project too, I have another 3 hour training session tonight with one of the college kids and holyyy shit I'm spending 70+ hours a week developing

I learned like basics of C++ but never built anything with it.

[true harness]

well what's the problem then 👀

[long merlin]

did you finished python

[spark cobalt]

There's no such thing as finishing a language. Even the experts in this server feel like there's lots to learn and I'm nowhere near that level.

[long merlin]

I mean did you ever try it out?

[spark cobalt]

Yes, the project I'm working on is Python and I do use Python to help speed development process for work sometimes.

[long merlin]

Cool

[steel bone]

Pretty sure Dennis Ritchie who created C rated his understanding of the language an 8 out of 10.

[potent stratus]

then as far as preparing beforehand, I'd ask a contact if they have any information about what technology you'll be using. If you've got your manager / mentor / whatevers email I'd send them something like "Hello So and So, I'm excited about getting to work with your team and would like to be prepared to hit the ground running when I start. Are there any resources or information about the tech stack you can give me ahead of time that you think would help me get a head start?" - and then let them decide how much to give you to prep, but you've shown the initiative

[spark cobalt]

What is PDT

Aren't you still in college though

You are kind of a troll

[steel bone]

Since folks are talking about internships...
I really, really think internships are best used to figure out what you want to do, and not as a flex for later.
You've got decades to build your career, you don't need to work for Amazon day one.
I had 5 internships in school - helpdesk, database manager, coal plant engineer, embedded dev, fullstack dev. It wasn't until the last one that I found what I actually wanted to do.
Now, I don't even list them on my resume anymore.

[outer granite]

@spark cobalt

[spark cobalt]

Last time I asked that, the dude training me was like, "No, I got this."

[steel bone]

Not what I said. I'm saying if you want Amazon on your resume for the sake of having it on your resume, fine. But you have plenty of time to get those names no your resume. Instead, work for companies you're interested in and figure out what you want to do. Amazon likely won't give you that.

[spark cobalt]

Projects. Just sit down, grind through projects. No following some shitty course or Youtube tutorial where you end up just copying their code.

Embrace being uncomfortable, embrace knowing shit, and just grind through the thick mud. There's really no easy way. If you're learning and it feels easy, you're either learning the wrong thing, or you're learning it in the wrong way.

Most efficient way to learn imo.

Like grinded through this way for a React app despite never touching like the 4 languages before, and I feel comfortable doing any sort of UI work or building projects using React despite only having ever used it for a week prior to joining my company.

Granted, that week was literally like every waking hour grinding. Like almost 100 hours that week of just pure coding.

When we push our first release, I'll share

But no, no personal page.

[outer granite]

Basically "Practise Hard".

[spark cobalt]

I'm super proud of project I'm working on. Things are going really smoothly, the kids are learning fast and they're growing to be professional little SWEs.

No, like the college kids I recruited for the project that knows like nothing tbh.

[outer granite]

you're outsourcing too?

[spark cobalt]

I spent 4.5 hours yesterday calling them training them for their ticket this week. And I have another like 3 hour call tonight.

No, this is just passion project I'm doing on the side. This is unrelated to work.

Working shit ton of hours every week for work + project. It's crazy

Hoping to work the college kids up to the point they can maintain the project and build new features and everything themselves.

80% of the issue with problem solving is not understanding the problem itself.

Wait fuck I didn't order lunch today. Fuckk I need to buy lunch now

This is so lame

[outer granite]

@spark cobalt Become my Mentor

[spark cobalt]

No.

[outer granite]

pls, we're college kids too

[spark cobalt]

There's a lot of things they don't professionally and technically get, and I'm spending like hours a week on each person to help them. It's like 12 additional hours a week of just pure training a week for all of them.

So I kinda just treat them as like, college kids lol.

Trying to get them to do due dates on their tickets, trying to make them learn how to communicate properly, all those sorts of things they don't know.

[spark cobalt]

I would not spend hours to work up a random person on the internet. Especially if 99% chance they'll just ghost me the moment they get a job or etc. and just make me feel like I was used.

I'm mostly doing this because I feel really blessed and I wanted to give back. And so I spend this time for friends that's been with me for the past like 7 years.

[steel bone]

you'll need to be on the west coast between March and November.

[near ocean]

the kind of people that work at PDT and supposedly make 500k+ dont ask about how to get into PDT

[delicate bane]

its somewhat funny bc he is most likely younger than them. but he has much, much more experience than them. so kids is an appropriate term imo. i also say kids when i refer to college kids

[sleek egret]

anyone under 40 is a kid

[delicate bane]

assistant when

[sleek egret]

;-P

[delicate bane]

recently heard how someone had to get one to order lunch everyday since they would just forget to eat since they would be too busy putting out fires

[spark cobalt]

Dude our lunch order forms are due at 8:30 and then we can just run it on company bill but like fuck that's so early.

[delicate bane]

just run a script to place the order for you

[spark cobalt]

Youngest of the team

[delicate bane]

no need to wake up

[spark cobalt]

There's like thousands of options (we use Saltalk, dunno if you heard) and idk if script can tell what I'm craving for

Craving dim sum though

[delicate bane]

build your own personal recommendation system. idk man. theres plenty of ways to overengineer this

[spark cobalt]

Sounds like a lot of effort. I just need to remember to order on the weekend. Usually one of the HR people send a message to a slack channel to remind everyone to order didn't happen this week...

[delicate bane]

slack bot when

[spark cobalt]

WAIT YO THATS SO SMART.

[spark cobalt]

God idea. I'll bring it up. Thanks

[delicate bane]

nice! it shouldnt be too hard to create to. np.

[sleek egret]

you right. everyone else is a zombie

[spark cobalt]

Wait we on break soon, I can just code it over the break. This is such perfect timing holy shit

Company on break for the holidays

[delicate bane]

im going to go on lunch. have fun. let me know how the slack bot goes

[sleek egret]

what sort of company takes a break for the holidays?

[spark cobalt]

Will do cya

[sleek egret]

obviously, you will be a poor zombie

[spark cobalt]

Spotify apparently

Not everyone's going on break ofc.

[sleek egret]

weird

if you say so

[near ocean]

My guy, a little less trolling please

[vapid jay]

Hello, i want to start programming but i dont know how. Maybe someone can help me started. I have been trying to learn coding for 3 months now, and i still only know the basic. Maybe someone can tell me which path to go?

Thx

[ebon trellis]

Is anyone that’s really good at python available to assist me real quick

[near ocean]

This isnt a help channel #python-discussion #❓｜how-to-get-help

[ebon trellis]

I know it’s not but I’m not getting help from anyone so I’m asking everywhere, I’m willing to pay for who Evers time

[tame lichen]

hello everyone, I'm currently working on learning multiple technologies and ecosystems at once, those being python, c++, c#, and javascript mainly for right now.
by the time i get out of college (I'm a sophomore in high school currently) will mastery of those languages benefit me in finding a job in software or should i follow more of a general roadmap in addition?

[sleek egret]

yes, you should try to learn those languages. yes you should also follow a more general roadmap to learn the underlying theory

[tame lichen]

kk - also considering how late i started development I'm a little concerned if i can learn enough in order to actually compete in the market considering a lot of ppl my age started when they were 10 or so but

[sleek egret]

well, you can't do anything about that nhow

just do what you can in the time you have left on this earth

[steel kindle]

If you’re starting in high school you’re more than fine lol. I didn’t start programming until I was in college.

[near remnant]

Bruh, just start it. Dont worry about stuff like this.

[valid bronze]

is collage requirement debateble?

bcs in one hand I think it's not, but rather your skill and personal knowledge

idk, maybe I'm just trying to find reasons why not to go to collage haha, I just enjoy studying at home by myself too much xd

[steel kindle]

Sure, but you’re much better off with a degree

[true harness]

what country are you in?

[spark cobalt]

Requirement is debatable. But the career stability, improved career growth having a degree, etc. makes it generally worth it.

[valid bronze]

croatia, but I would be happy to work remote

[valid bronze]

ordinary life seems boring, I think it would be awesome to try shoot for the stars and develop few apps instead of sitting in class listening to something I would learn on my own in 10th of time

[true harness]

ordinary life is ordinary because that's the easier way

[valid bronze]

and beside all the help on internet like this servers, chatGPT, github, overflow, tons and tons of book written by professionals....idk If I would choose collage beside that, but at the end of the day, that's just my opinion

[true harness]

indeed. though i would trust people with industry experience, people that do hiring, rather than my 0 experience, 0 involvement in hiring opinion

[dreamy shadow]

The biggest reason to go to college is employers will filter you out without an college degree.

[spark cobalt]

^

[valid bronze]

if (easy == fun){
life=boring;
}else{
life=thrilling;
}

[dreamy shadow]

Idk who in social media keeps pushing this bs that college degree isn't needed.

[spark cobalt]

I'm self taught lol. Working full time as SWE straight out of high school. I applied to almost 4000 jobs to get to where I'm at

The idea that you don't need a college degree is a little outdated.

[valid bronze]

actually when I think about that code, it doesn't make sense, never mind, maybe I should get a degree...

[spark cobalt]

College degree is mostly investing in your career. If you're focused on having the best career you can get, get a college degree.

[valid bronze]

did you find job before than 3 years?

[dreamy shadow]

This is a personal pet peeve of mine. All it requires is to try applying with 2 resumes, one with and one without. See the %s.

[spark cobalt]

Yes. I started self learning junior year of HS. Graduated high school 6 months ago and landed a job a couple months ago.

It was COVID year though, I had a lot of time. Like... day and night ability to just code. Might be more than 2 years for non COVID era

[valid bronze]

that's basically cheating, ppl in cs class are still sitting there whishing to do what you do now and still they won't achieve that in 3 and half years more, count how much money will you have more than them

[spark cobalt]

On average, they'd probably have better career growth.

But I'll probably have better career growth simply cuz of the company I landed. But we'll see.... It's definitely not the norm though

[true harness]

as well as higher pay on average

[spark cobalt]

It's the difference of 4 YOE. The higher pay will be seen like down the line when some goes to managerial positions etc.

[dreamy shadow]

Do you think you'll go back to get a degree? If not part time?

[true harness]

oh, i wasn't talking about you, lol. i meant CS grads

[spark cobalt]

Probably not. Company I'm at is giving me a lot of responsibility I don't think I'll have issues of career growth.

Right now on a project where the lead is working with me for the next few months to hand the lead of the project to me.

[dreamy shadow]

Companies tend to count education as experience too. Posts I've seen are like 8 YoE w/o degree (If even accepted), BS + 4 Years, Masters + 2 years, etc.

[spark cobalt]

Will get a lot of experience talking to clients which we have some Fortune 50 customers for the project and whatnot. Will be a fun adventure.

I'm not stupid, I'm just inexperienced

Company seems to intend to give me the full package experience. Or as much of the full package they can reasonably give.

[near remnant]

if pain was a code:

if (if==else):
else != if
else:
if =! elif
return False

[dreamy shadow]

I don't believe anyone is inherently stupid, just a matter of laziness or not (putting in the effort to learn a skill).

[spark cobalt]

The project isn't spectacular itself. It's not like revolutionary compared to like the rest of the company and the other project I'm on. But yeah experience is experience.

[dreamy shadow]

Today's a slow day. Everyone's out of office.

This week's calendar is completely clean.

[near remnant]

I have one month free LinkedIn premium..I save it for the month I'm going to start applying for another job.

[spark cobalt]

It really is...

[spring bison]

Hi Im planning to study a conversion msc in computer science and I have to pick 40credit in optional modules, I personally interested in AI, Data Science and software development but Im not sure which modules to pick for better employability.
Can someone advise me pls?

[loud hamlet]

With chatGPT and strides in AI I'm reconsidering career paths. I've been considering software sales and consultant instead of development. Anyone have in input?

[spring bison]

Those are the modules

Advanced Algorithms and Data Structures10 credits
Advanced Computer Networks20 credits
Autonomous Robotic Systems20 credits
Computer Graphics20 credits
Databases, Interfaces and Software Design Principles20 credits
Fundamentals of Information Visualisation10 credits
Information Visualisation Project10 credits
Knowledge, Representation and Reasoning20 credits
Linear and Discrete Optimisation20 credits
Machine Learning20 credits
Malware Analysis10 credits
Mixed Reality20 credits
Programming20 credits
Programs, Proofs and Types20 credits
Project in Advanced Algorithms and Data Structures10 credits
Simulation and Optimisation for Decision Support20 credits
Systems and Networks20 credits
Human-AI Interaction20 credits
Designing Intelligent Agents20 credits
Games20 credits
Data Modelling and Analysis20 credits
Fuzzy Logic and Fuzzy Systems20 credits
Big Data Learning and Technologies10 credits
Computer Vision20 credits
Cyber Security10

[dreamy shadow]

Couple hot topic ones: NLP, NLP, NLP, Big data, ML (general).

[near remnant]

https://tenor.com/view/blinking-eyes-white-guy-blinking-meme-what-huh-gif-26334322

[spring bison]

Sorry about the long list

Im so worried about the optional modules, since it looks important for future

[near remnant]

bad idea

software development is not just writing plain code...AI won't just replace millions of developers mate

[spring bison]

It doesnt have NLP sadly, Im thinking if I should do ML,big data, algorithms and data structure

[dreamy shadow]

If purely on ML, I would maybe do Machine Learning, and Big Data Learning & Tech. (Data modeling & analysis is another good one)

But tbh, if you have a undergrad in CS, I would stick in the CS path as they tend to pay higher.

[loud hamlet]

Why is software sales, account management, project management these sorts of more interpersonal roles in Tech not a good idea?

I feel like AI won't be able to replace jobs that depend on the human element

[spring bison]

Tbh I dont have a CS Bsc, I have a biomedical science bsc and looking to change field

[near remnant]

I can tell you never worked as a developer

software development involves a lot of human elements

[loud hamlet]

It's very demotivating when I chatGPT writes code that took my hours, in seconds

[near remnant]

I know mate...I feel the same but that's life

I deleted my chatGPT account because I want to improve and learn

[loud hamlet]

I'm 18. Looking to do an apprenticeship as a software engineer but now I'm having seconds thoughts

[dreamy shadow]

Except ChatGPT has it's own issues. And I doubt will be depended much on to write actual code.

[near remnant]

don't worry mate

[loud hamlet]

Any Uncle like advice for me?

[dreamy shadow]

A lot of hype around ChatGPT.

[loud hamlet]

It's still in the test stage. If this is available to the public imagine what sort of AI is being used behind closed doors

[near remnant]

go and study what you really like and want to. software engineering / development is here to stay. companies won't and can't replace devs with just an AI..
like for real, a CEO who never worked with programming, will code everything on its own and with the help of chatGPT?

on the other hand tho, the field of CS will probably change overtime.

[dreamy shadow]

Don't have to imagine much. It'll become a tool to help developers, as any other tool that currently exists.

[loud hamlet]

You make a good point. And there is always the possibility to branch over to other field of CS like ML once I have Swe skills

[dreamy shadow]

The biggest part about SWE is not the writing code. It's converting the human problem into code.

[near remnant]

this is it

people don't realize but SWE on high-levels is basically a very important business role with some technical aspects. guess why senior roles most of the times mean less coding and more meetings.

[loud hamlet]

That's a great point. I didn't consider how business orientated the role actually is but it makes sense, the code needs to meet client requirements

[near remnant]

Honestly, my advice is: learn and do what you would enjoy, if it is programming, then its amazing.

[loud hamlet]

Yeah it is programming. I love it, and enjoy it (all the ups and downs of finding different solutions, constantly learning etc) the AI hype just had me shook

Also, would you recommend a newbie like me work for a big company or for a small tech company. I feel like the big one will have more prestige on paper but the small will be a better learning experience, but I'm not sure

[spring bison]

So should I choose ML, big data and advanced data algorithms and data structure? I cannot pick data modelling since it is 20 credits

[near remnant]

I would start at a smaller company.

[dreamy shadow]

I would read the syllabus on what ML covers. Generally, these courses (ML courses) are very basic and you could learn it on your own time. Have the core credit on something for employers to see instead.

[steel kindle]

In general bigger companies tend to pay better. I think whether or not you will get better experience depends on the specific role and the company.

[delicate bane]

i think if you can get a few internships during your masters, that would be great for employability

[white relic]

I think it's better for a junior engineer to start in a big company. Big companies have better support structures for you to learn how to do your job, more social groups and connections to get you acclimated to your new location (if you're relocating), more established and better documented systems for educational assistance (if you want it), and are more likely to put you in a narrow role that you can focus on while you're still learning how to exist and work in a corporate environment.
Smaller companies are great too, but easier to transition to once you already have had a job for a while. 2¢

[balmy spade]

I would apply to both and get a feel for the culture you're hiring into. Excluding startups, as I have no experience with those fey beasts, the differences of a large corp or a small one can be offset by the culture of the team you are hiring into. Both offer experience. Both can offer the same competitive pay.

[dreamy shadow]

Counter point, smaller company lets you get familiar with the entire process. Large company, you can get stuck in a team and have no idea what it does and how it fits in the big picture.

Either way, larger company = more stability + pay so... still larger company better.

[balmy spade]

I can't find support for stability or more pay in larger companies. Not as a rule, at least. At a larger company you are, unfortunately, one of many. You have to work your ass off to rise above. At a smaller company you are one of few. The chances you can collect subject to be the SME in are higher as well as the perceived value versus effort. At least, from my experience.

Pay. Meh, I think that's all over the board. Amazon offered me half of what I make now. Another, much smaller, company offered me double.

[white relic]

Becoming familiar with "the entire process" as you put it is a tall order when you're also just learning to live as an adult out of college. It's fine to take things one at a time, you don't have to learn everything all at once. Big companies also have reputations which can help you get that next job, although idk if that's a positive on average or just in specific cases.

But it's also perfectly fine for people to have different ways of approaching things. I was an intern when a senior engineer gave me this advice and I haven't regretted it.

[dreamy shadow]

For me, in terms of DS, I found it useful to understand from data ingestion -> predictions in product at a high level. Maybe not knowing the specifics, but knowing some of the tools that are used in implementing. I don't see this at my current company (much larger) as other teams handle this and I have no interaction.

But yes, in general I think starting off in a big company is better. The positions/roles have more weight to them and makes it easier to transition from large company -> large company. I had some luck in someone poaching me from my start up into my current large company.

[delicate bane]

hmm maybe i made the wrong career move then, starting in DS at a smaller company

but i think i like the advantages of a smaller company for my role. sometimes it can be annoying with the context switching but it def forced me to grow quickly

which fits better with my personality probably.

another dimension to this i think i would add to the conversation is layoffs. since it seems to be a recurring theme atm going into 2023. one could maybe say at a smaller company, it is harder to replace you but that obv depends on the role/impact you have

Investors and the board expect a 15%-20% headcount reduction. You’ll see those numbers come up repeatedly. There’s a first round of 5% reduction where the lowest performers are let go. The next round is between 10%-15% of the workforce. If the company isn’t profitable, 20% of employees were cut in the first round, and some made deeper cuts 3-6 months later.

The CEOs are all still in place. There have been very few firings in 2022, which isn’t easy to accept. A layoff is a confession that the business overhired or didn’t see the changing marketplace coming. The responsibility for both sits firmly on the CEO’s shoulders. However, it’s rare to see them suffer any consequences.

from a newsletter i subscribe to.

[spark shale]

what is "list index out of range"?

[graceful mason]

#❓｜how-to-get-help

[hollow vault]

I have a job interview coming up this week for a data analyst position. I feel confident that I can get the job, but am worried about the company itself, it has terrible reviews on indeed and glassdoor and the pay is honestly not the best either. I just want to get my foot in the door of a more tech oriented role as I am switching career fields. Is it worth it to struggle for a bit in a potentially bad role so I can pivot out of it in a year ish?

[sleek egret]

that depends on what are your alternatives are. weigh the pros and cons for your choices. then choose.

[delicate bane]

you dont even know if you have gotten the job yet my friend. i think you should focus on doing well on the interview and cross that bridge when you get there. there are more people than you would think trying to make a career switch into a more technical role.

focus on your strengths and what you can bring to the table.

[hollow vault]

thats fair. haha i guess i am a bit ahead of myself

[delicate bane]

its okay. still something to think about once you get to the job offer stage. but hopefully by then you may have another offer or two that you can decide between

[burnt elk]

Can any one tell me how to gain experience , to get eligible for basic requirements for companies

[spark cobalt]

By being employed.

If you have no experience, then you just have to do things to kind of make up for it. Typically in the form of a degree (+ internships) and projects

[burnt elk]

Thanks buddy

[near remnant]

I've migrated the whole project (web app) from python 2.x to Python 3.11 and fixed every bug, now it works perfectly and much faster than before..did everything on my own. Feels good. 😎

https://tenor.com/view/omg-oh-my-god-wow-gif-11411674

[rustic stratus]

can i ask sum question for python

[vapid jay]

I was told I need "Commercial Experience" by an employer. Does making and selling software/apps for a small profit count?

[spark cobalt]

Pretty sure it's equivalent to professional experience.

For example, I have 2 years of experience in coding, but it's not in a professional/business environment so henceforth it generally doesn't count as commercial/professional experience.

FYI: When people say experience, they generally imply commercial/professional experience.

[olive prairie]

no

[near remnant]

funniest vid https://youtube.com/watch?v=YnL9vAFphmE&feature=shares

[rose ibex]

Is it bad if I make spelling and grammar mistakes when talking with my software team? I have learning disability

[buoyant seal]

Probably depends on how bad mistakes are
And if they are non native English speakers as well
And on your job role

[rose ibex]

Just when I am typing I forget to include words, basically whole team are non native English speakers but have decent English. Its automation role

[buoyant seal]

I often edit and rephrase my messages to fix mistakes xD

[buoyant seal]

Sounds like a job and environment with not expected high grammar

[buoyant seal]

U can't be making mistakes more than B2-C1 non native English speaker 😆
In comparison to them, your mistakes are surely pretty light

[rose ibex]

I make simple mistakes, but edit it whenever I notice or use online tool to check before sending a message

[white relic]

It really depends on what kind of communication.
Teams/Slack/other chat, where you're expected to respond in real time, it doesn't matter.
Github issues/internal emails should probably be free of spelling mistakes but strict grammar is less important.
Emails up the chain of command or to people outside the company are where I take the most care with my writing.
Technical writing (documentation, official reports, etc.) is another category.

[true harness]

fixed every bug
famous last words

[gritty rivet]

If this is a major concern for you, I would discuss it openly with your manager, in an appropriate setting like a performance review. Maybe they will tell you that you're doing fine, or maybe they will have constructive ideas on what you can do to improve.

And don't be afraid to ask for reasonable accommodations if you feel like something can be done to make effective communication easier for you. Here in the US at least, if you have a documented disability, this is your legally protected right.

[feral summit]

this is very career related; does anyone know a game i can install without admin permission?

[vapid jay]

Flask VS Django for a beginner? Have been doing some Python for a while at work, mostly automating, as well as HTML and CSS. What is more used in bigger organizations and what would help me better to get into a position? I know that situations may vary, but.. should I look straight forward to the market locally or? I want to go from monitoring into a development. Much appreciated.

[dreamy spade]

I don't understand this job description. This job posting is titled "Email Developer"

In this role:

-You’ll be responsible for coding, testing, troubleshooting and updating every email project that comes

through the agency. While you won’t be tasked with designing or creating email content, you should

be confident in your expertise to advise on email best practices where needed.

What will there be to "develop"? People can already email each other. Right?

Job Description:
. Our client is looking for an Email Developer who adores playing around in email’s restrictive

format to create something extra awesome. The ideal candidate is someone who can not only code beautiful and responsive emails quickly, but who has the know-how and experience to own the whole development process, from build to packaging assets.

[turbid dome]

What will there be to "develop"?
the actual email content, essentially how to make it pretty i guess?
People can already email each other. Right?
sure, but people don't write pretty email with images and animation usually.

[zealous topaz]

I have 3 years of experience as a video game developer, recently changed career path to data engineer/analyst (currently <1 year exp in data engineer through consulting comp). When data engineer recruiters look at my experience and skills, in general, do they consider me as junior position or senior position?

Because when I get emails from recruiters they are looking for senior engineers. Are they skipping the 3 years of "video game developer" part and only think of it as 3 years of data engineer? If you have 3 years of experience in one part(like video games) of IT and want to change career path to different part(non-video games) in IT, can you still apply for junior role or not?

[turbid dome]

in general, do they consider me as junior position or senior position?
consider you for junior/mid imo, at least that's what i would do if i am hiring. depending on the actual achievement in your 1 year experience of DE though, if you were throw into the deep end by your company and successfully led a project, then i would consider you senior.
... can you still apply for junior role or not?
just apply to anything that you find interesting to be honest, most firm imo will just refer you to a more correct role (in terms of role title and level)

[dreamy spade]

But can you just style it on your own?

You can make your font , italic , bold , color it and etc.

[turbid dome]

look at this email for example, someone made a lot of effort to make it look that pretty (arguable, but better than plain text)

[elfin marsh]

i feel like i'm never going to reach a passable level 😦

i can handle easy questions but when the difficulty gets harder its pretty hard to manage.

[turbid dome]

passable level for what? job interview? exams?

[elfin marsh]

yeah for both interviews and exams might and i'm just starting out in coding . Have got a tutor but not sure sometimes why my logic doesn't work on problems.

but sometimes it does work .

[near ocean]

Its just practice, theres no magic to it

[turbid dome]

i feel like i'm never going to reach a passable level
sometimes these things are a self-fulfilling prophecy. don't beat yourself up/be too harsh on yourself, somethings are meant to take you time to learn.

granted there are people who just absorb ideas like a sponge, but comparing yourself against someone else is just a recipe for unhappiness, start comparing yourself to who you were yesterday instead!

[elfin marsh]

thank you ry !

[spark cobalt]

A recipe I found to be successful was using drawings and diagrams to express my thought process.

Then way before I even start coding, I see logical fallacies. And there's the added benefit of it increasing the likelihood your interviewer knows what you're doing.

It's a super good way to express ideas. And often a very common way.

[elfin marsh]

Hmm you do mean flowcharts right .

[spark cobalt]

Last thing you want your interviewer to feel is lost if you've taken an unnessecarily complicated route.

Asking for help isn't generally ever a problem. Driving off a cliff and crashing and burning is.

[spark cobalt]

Can be anything that helps you express your algorithm. Maybe it's number lines, or something else. The whole purpose is something that makes sense to you, then the next level of diagrams is something that makes sense to others.

Do note that technical interviews are also challenging your communication abilities. Diagrams and pictures are a very effective and powerful way to communicate 🙂

It takes practice. No specific way to do it. Lots of freedom in this. Generally it ends up being problem specific.

[elfin marsh]

Ok my other qn was how do you slowly scale up in complexity (in problems )or is that a bit tough to answer. Like my uni assignments and exams are like levels different . I was able to tackle assignments but when it came to algorithms i was stumped :\ . The lecturer did not even cover sorting algos sigh .

[spark cobalt]

Practice. 9/10 times the reason why I see people fail their problems is a.) They didn't understand the problem well enough and b.) They started coding without a plan, then ultimately derail when something they didn't realize was a problem... Ends up being a problem.

Read the question. Read it again. Clarify it with your interviewer. Be on the same page.

[elfin marsh]

Can this group be a good place to ask on whether my approach is right/wrong when handling questions.

[magic pond]

hi so i've been considering getting the PCAP cert (https://pythoninstitute.org/pcap) does anyone know if its really any good?

[spark cobalt]

Asking in #algos-and-data-structs is probably better

[elfin marsh]

Ok .

[gritty rivet]

Good for what? If you're looking for employers that value it, I'll doubt you'll find many, but check job listings in your area.

[spark cobalt]

In terms of helping getting a job, it does nothing. Other than that, the things taught in the lessons are very basic.

[elfin marsh]

Yeah I agree with dowcet usually it's a degree in comp sci or similar that gets interviews.

[sleek egret]

generally speaking, something is "more complex" when there are more parts and more interaction between parts. once a system has too many parts and interactions to comprehend easily, you should start to group the parts into "natural" sets. call them "subsystems".

[magic pond]

I am considering applying for backend security jobs, I've been keeping an eye out of companies mentioning Python

[sleek egret]

subsystems would be where there's a lot of interaction between the parts in the subsystem but not so much outside the subsystem. this way you can think about each subsystem in isolation. and then think of the entire system as a collection of those subsystems rather than the entire set of all components.

not sure what the term for this would be called. perhaps hierarchical decomposition?

[gritty rivet]

Unless some of those job listings explicitly mention PCAP, I doubt it will help. You can also check LinkedIn to see what credentials people in relevant roles list on their profiles

[dreamy spade]

Ahhh I see.

[spark cobalt]

Best way to get that is through a degree.

[elfin marsh]

Here is where I'm stumped usually like we humans know if it's a 5 multiplication table . I know how to print vertically 1,2,3,4,5 but i was really not sure how to proceed after that lol. :
12345
246810
3691215

[magic pond]

yay time to waste years of my life

[sleek egret]

well, first, you probably want separators there

[spark cobalt]

[elfin marsh]

Well it's not just about the years of your life but the complexity of the job as a programmer or backend crew.

[sleek egret]

eh? most programmers have very simple (as in non-complex) jobs

they may work on difficult and challenging problems, but the job itself is non-complex

[elfin marsh]

If you mean sitting in a chair yeah non complex lol .

[spark cobalt]

Most of the time you'll be doing something someone else already done before under a paradigm that someone else already defined.

[sleek egret]

doesn't mean you can be replaced with a bot?

[spark cobalt]

I don't think either of us implied that

[elfin marsh]

Rmah separators weren't the problem i didn't know that you need to create an empty string to concatenate with a nested for loop.

Seems to me like a lot of problem solving is from experience -.-

[delicate bane]

you can try alternative routes to break in but it is usually much harder unless you have strong connections, luck, or other factors

[gilded valley]

what makes you think it's wasted?

[delicate bane]

maybe you can try applying for apprenticeships if you have them in your area

[magic pond]

ive never heard of programming/tech apprenticeships, but ill start asking around 🤔
thanks!

[sleek egret]

internships are very good for students

[delicate bane]

theyre company-dependent and can be competitive so make sure youre able to stand out

[dire bay]

H

[potent stratus]

How did you "level up" your python? not in the hard leetcode problems sense, but in the sense of knowing when to use classes, list comprehensions, adding type parameters, etc? how'd you go from a script kiddie to a full fledged python developer?

ah jeez. someone who writes good clean python code for complex problems and uses nice pythonic tricks / things that are well beyond the basics

[sleek egret]

what's "full python"?

you shouldn't use tricks unless there's a clear need for them and you can't do it without the tricks

to wit, tricks != clean code

[spark cobalt]

Exposure, trial, then practice.

[potent stratus]

hm. I guess I'd disagree somewhat about tricks != clean code. like a list comprehension might not be a "trick" but when someone first showed me I was like "oh that's a neat trick" and while it might not be as readable as a loop, I'd say it also could be cleaner code

[sleek egret]

it's not a trick in the least. it's a very common python idiom.

[spark cobalt]

It's very readable for other Python developers. More readable than it's expanded variant at least

[sleek egret]

and if your list comprehension is too complex to be easily understood at a glance, you should unwind it into a cleaner form

[potent stratus]

sure, but also not one that a lot of beginners will know about when they're first starting off

[sleek egret]

sav: when I say "trick" I mean things like reaching into the guts to make python do things unexpected. changing the semantics of various language constructs. shit like that.

[spark cobalt]

Yep. So first step is exposure.

Look at code on GitHub, see how others are developing projects and what kind of paradigms and strategies they're following.

Then try implementing it in your own code, then practice.

[potent stratus]

I guess what I want to know is how do you, personally, as people with careers, get exposed to better code than what you're currently writing so you can improve?

[sleek egret]

what beginners know/don't know, their opinions on various python idioms, and their general feelings ... essentially do not matter

[spark cobalt]

Look at the code someone more experienced has written. Whether that's in the form of a book, open source GitHub, or just code my seniors in my company wrote.

[sleek egret]

Two ways. one is to simply read other people's code. some is great, some sucks. another is to take something and re-architect/re-write it. this lets you get a feel for and appreciate things both in the large (overall system architecture) as well as in the small (edge cases)

[spark cobalt]

The way they might not write it is the best, but understanding how their method is better than yours will help you build better code incrementally.

A lot of it is just ways to improve that you haven't thought of before. Then once you pick it up and apply it, it'll become a second nature strategy that you'll then repeat the process to improve it even further

[sleek egret]

one of the big issues that I see younger programmers having is the difficulty of shifting your focus from the minutia and details to the overall system architecture (how all the details fit together). you need to ping-pong back and forth as you code to ensure that everything works well together.

[spark cobalt]

Multi component projects help really well for this ^

Also just in general, at least what I see from people learning is a lot are afraid to bite the bullet and commit to a project that'll help them gain a more higher level understanding of how data flows in an application.

[sleek egret]

oh, one other tip. try not to do the old "I'll take this shortcut for now and fix it later". the truth is that you'll almost never fix it later. just accept that and do it right the first time.

[dusty fulcrum]

or embrace the darkness

[spark cobalt]

People have commitment issues 😔

[sleek egret]

but the counter that is that you shouldn't over-engineer things. if xyz option is not gonna be used, don't add it. if it doesn't need to be abstract, don't abstract it.

[dusty fulcrum]

I've worked with a few engineers like that factorize and obfuscate everything.

[sleek egret]

the reason is that the additional features you think you'll need won't be the features you'll need in the future. you'll be wrong more often than right (until you have a few decades of experience under your belt).

[sleek egret]

yes, that's what I mean. it's very annoying

[dusty fulcrum]

I joined Microsoft on a team where the lead was busy architecting how all the data would relate to each other, while I waited for him I built a working prototype thathe bosses started demoing to customers (it was not meant to be a demo) lead finally finishes his architecture 3 months later, and we start building against it, but he's over engineered it to the point that it's inflexible and he missed a critical use case and had to start over. It was 3 more months before we got to start working against the new less rigid design

[sleek egret]

that's bad management. the team should be involved. the architect should have assigned components for them to, at a minimum, identify risks. or if they're experienced enough to design the details.

many ways to skin the cat here, but having very expensive engineers sitting and waiting is not a good course of action.

I was once hired to replace a guy like that who was leading a team. my first year was less than fun as I unwound a lot of his BS.

[dusty fulcrum]

You're absolutely right about it being bad management. Manager was giving the lead his first opportunity to lead. I only stayed with that team for a year, got my project done, won some accolades, moved on quickly.

[sleek egret]

heh, got out while the getting was good, eh? 🙂

[dusty fulcrum]

Did some cool stuff. Left. 🙂

[sleek egret]

you know, back in the day, big corporations used to give people management training before they were first put into leadership roles. now they expect everyone to just know or pick it up as you go along.

[dusty fulcrum]

It's rough, you either get a good manager that knows little about engineering, or you get a good engineer that knows little about managing. I like to think I'm a good manager based on the feedback I've had. But ultimately I still prefer sitting in a corner and just building something.

[sleek egret]

as do most software developers 🙂

[dusty fulcrum]

I've always said my approach to management is that I'm still a developer, I just have better tools available.

[sleek egret]

so... you think managers are ... tools?

[dusty fulcrum]

for various meanings of the word. 🙂

[true harness]

human capital

[spark cobalt]

Rmah is a good tool

[half pilot]

Guys, can we never use IF Statements ever again?

if statement:
    function()```
=
```python
for x in int(bool(statement)):
    function()```

[near ocean]

That snippet doesnt make any sense and is also off topic, try #python-discussion

[mortal wedge]

A good manager makes an employee better. Even with coding set aside, they should facilitate your progress, help you address any external blockers like from another stakeholder/client, etc.

Ideally you have a manager that has some subject matter expertise in whichever area you're in, but tbh it's not strictly necessary to be a good manager.

It's also not always feasible, I'm able to continually review new publications to increase my knowledge in a domain while my manager has to manage a bunch of different people/projects

[spark cobalt]

According to some of my Meta friends, Mark apparently does the same and requests that all kinds of technologies and whatnot gets ran through him for a final check. And he takes lessons to be able to actually do a review of whichever product etc.

[sleek egret]

As a manager, you may not need to know how to implement a specific tech, but you do need to know its capabilities. that is, what it can do and not do. how it interacts with other tech. etc.

[mortal wedge]

Yeah, I'd say knowing the broad strokes is important

[dreamy shadow]

I got an email that I received an amazon package? Looks like an email from our office (but in another state)? Wtf? I wasn't made aware of any packages.

It smells like a scam of some kind, but then again I don't see how. Email is legit from the other office. ???

Wtf do I do? Do I just say, I'm not expecting any packages? Who tf sends amazon packages to their work place?

[vapid jay]

Besides python what is a good language to learn. I'm thinking c and html

[sleek egret]

also C++, Javascript, TypeScript, LISP, C#, Java, SQL, Rust, Go, Ruby, Julia, Haskall, Clojure, Scala, etc. Even VB

would help to also learn HTML and CSS

oh, PHP, Swift, Dart, R, K, APL, etc, etc

LISP and Scheme too, of course

[mortal wedge]

Hey, so I have an interview with a major company and I'm worried that I'm significantly under qualified for the position. Should I be upfront about this? Like "I have a lot of the qualifications your'e looking for, but I don't want to misrepresent myself, I don't have direct professional experience with topic X?

[dreamy shadow]

I would say: If they set up an interview, that means at least on paper they have deemed you have the minimum requirements for the job. The interview will figure out how much you know.
Like talking to the police, don't volunteer information that counts against you.

Also, depends on how far down topic X is in the job description/requirements.

[smoky quest]

You contact your office to make sure they did send it

[smoky quest]

You could look at it from two different angles:

• What are the languages directly relevant for your role
• What are the languages directly relevant to making you a better engineer

For the first one, that will depend on your role, such as java and python for backend. For the second, you could look at languages of different paradigms such as ocaml (functional), java/python (oop), prolog (logic), and erlang/scala (actor model, even if not a paradigm). That will expand your mind and help think through problems in different ways

[dreamy shadow]

I don't think my office sent me it as it arrived in the NE office. My closest office is Midwest. My office would have my address on file, as that's how I received my equipment. The only other possibility (besides a scam) is if my old boss (as they were closest to the NY office) sent me something, but I feel like they would either contact me, or send it to the Midwest office as they know I'm located there.

Idk if I should have them just forward it to the Midwest office? And I go in to take a look?

My knee jerk reaction is to get a picture of the label, maybe track it that way somehow.

I would say it is a mistake, but the office services people emailed me directly.

[delicate bane]

maybe an old coworker sent you a present? it is around the holidays so thats a possibility

[smoky quest]

Why overthinking it when you could send an email to confirm?

[delicate bane]

i am now extremely curious and invested in this. let me know what you find out

[dreamy shadow]

No idea who to email to confirm lol

[delicate bane]

[smoky quest]

Look up the company directory, any office manager you know, your manager, etc.

[dreamy shadow]

Everything so far in my work has been: "It's not that I don't want to do it, it's I have no idea who tf to reach out to or where to even begin"
Also, everyone's out of office this week lol

I guess I'll ask my manager early next week or something. And just ask for an image of the label to start.

[delicate bane]

yeah what if they emailed the wrong person. do you have a common first name. that happens sometimes

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, somewhat common.

Different question: I want to send my Recommenders (ex-bosses) for grad school a thank you gift. Would something like a starbucks/amazon gift card be fine/appropriate? Kind of like a happy holidays + thank you type message.

Most advice I've read is physical gifts, but I don't think it really applies to me as I've only worked with them remotely (And don't have their mailing address, feels more awkward to ask).

Can't find any advice for post covid

[buoyant seal]

Every language has its own good usage cases. 🙂
Some of them are good to learn together for same job role, some not

[smoky quest]

gift cards feel pretty cheap/generic.

I would go with something more personal and thank you card

Like, a gift card is something you send to a reviewer to bribe them. That doesn't convey deep thanks

[buoyant seal]

#career-advice message
Check this

[near ocean]

Handwritten card and box-of-chocolate tier gift

[dreamy shadow]

Like a thank you card through email? I don't know how I would get the address for thank you cards? Send it to their work address?

[near ocean]

Would it not reach them at the work place?

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, I guess it should? I'm confused about the logistics, as I'm in the Midwest. My bosses are East and NE

[dreamy shadow]

Er, no it wouldn't. They are remote. The work location is Midwest, but they are located West coast. At least that's applicable for 2/3

[smoky quest]

and then someone else would come here asking about a package being delivered to their office 😉

[dreamy shadow]

LOL

[smoky quest]

You could ask them as well

[near ocean]

This is kinda awkward, asking them for an address to send stuff as a former employee, i just hope they take it lightly haha

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, that's why I'm trying to stick to digital. That's how my relationships with these bosses has been anyways.

I should have just gone with what I originally was going to do and not read any advice. Email a thank you + like a starbucks gift card.

[smoky quest]

"Hey, I am trying to send you a thank you package for all the help and mentorship you have graciously provided and all the help I got. Could I get your address?"

[dreamy shadow]

Thanks, this is a better way to word it.

If they don't, then I'm sending them a starbucks gift card lmao

[smoky quest]

lol. btw virtual cards can be quite fancy as well

[dreamy shadow]

Sending a virtual card would be 100x easier in the first place.

AND, they would get it within the next couple weeks. I don't need to wait for an email back.

[mortal wedge]

Damn that was one of the hardest interviews

I feel so exhausted

[dreamy shadow]

I feel like interviews are going to get harder as this recession hits.

I kinda stopped applying for this reason. Feels like company are getting tougher on the candidates.

[mortal wedge]

Damn if they get harder than that then there's no way I can win at them, lol

[dreamy shadow]

Well, still a numbers game. Just, larger numbers.

[spark cobalt]

Real

@mortal wedge What type of software do you develop? Or that you specialize in btw?

[delicate bane]

im sending a digital ebook. maybe i should also include a gift card since they may not read it

wait let me know if you find a site that does cool virtual cards

[dreamy shadow]

I'm honestly thinking just to send a e gift card. It's too much work otherwise, and we've been communicating digitally this way anyways. I don't think standard etiquette apply.

Also, getting every thing sent before new years probably won't happen

[delicate bane]

yeah same here. ive been a remote employee since day one. so i was going to send my mentors an amazon book as thanks/merry xmas gift

ive already chosen specific ones for each

[delicate bane]

yeah...most likely it wont. everything from USPS to amazon are probably overloaded during this time

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, but you have their addresses? I don't.

[delicate bane]

nope. only email addresses so i guess i only had the one option anyway

these books are digital btw.

[dreamy shadow]

Oh, that's an idea too.

[delicate bane]

yeah ive already sent a number of digital books to friends and they loved it but they were also younger so theres that

[dreamy shadow]

Books is something I don't want to bother with. "Why am I being sent 'how to manage people? "

[delicate bane]

the managers path book recommended by recursive is really good even for individual contributors. im almost done with it

im sending books that ive discussed with said individuals previously and they showed interest

[delicate bane]

otherwise itd be awkward like that lol

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, forget it. Starbucks gift card it is.

[delicate bane]

[mortal wedge]

Computational/analytical software. Basically doing analysis on brain recordings.

And even though I bombed my interview today, I did just get an offer from a different company, so all in all a decent day I'd say 🙂 But now I'm giving my current company a chance to counter and we'll see what happens. I'd prefer to stay put if they did a full match. A partial match and I'd have to think about it

[spark cobalt]

Ooo nice.

[mortal wedge]

It's very interesting and a lot of fun! There's also quite a few modules geared towards neuroscience in Python

[mortal wedge]

How do I say "Thank you for the offer, I'd like to take a week to think about it?"

[summer roost]

Exactly like that.

[mortal wedge]

Huh, really?

[summer roost]

If you have other companies you're still talking to, you can mention that as well.

[summer roost]

Yeah, why not?

[mortal wedge]

It feels weird to admit. But I am in the hiring process of multiple companies and I'm also giving my current company a chance to counter

[mortal wedge]

Dunno. I've never been in this position before.

Every time I've applied for jobs in the past I was unemployed at the time and/or they were my only prospect

[summer roost]

it's not a bad thing to admit - exactly the opposite, it's leverage

they're not going to ask you to immediately agree to their terms without considering competing offers, that would be unreasonable. So there's no harm in admitting that you're still in the process with other companies. I'm sure they don't think theirs is the only company that you applied to.

and, meanwhile, if you do get another offer, suddenly you have your first real leverage in the compensation negotiation. Before that, the only leverage you have is a willingness to walk away.

[summer roost]

and I'm also giving my current company a chance to counter
I'm not sure I'd mention that to the new company. Competing offers look good for you, but negotiating with your current employer with a gun to their head may not come off favorably.

[mortal wedge]

haha, fair enough

The problem is that while I am in the hiring process with several companies (and am negotiating with my current company) most of those other companies are freezing their processes over the holidays

So it's a bird in the hand worth two in the bush and maximin theory

and while a week to think things over I think is fine, I doubt they'd let me just wait out the holidays

[summer roost]

I wouldn't be so sure. The next 2 weeks are gonna be very slow at most offices.

I think 75% my team is out on any given day of the next 2 weeks 🙂

[mortal wedge]

They have some leverage as well, though. I know I was one of 3 candidates to make it to the final stage of interviews

[summer roost]

You can also apply some pressure to the other companies that you've been interviewing with - tell them that you've got another offer which you're considering accepting, and that if they want a chance with you they'll need to step their process up.

[mortal wedge]

Yeah, I'm definitely going to do that

[summer roost]

But you're right - the fastest that's likely to happen is the first week of January, unless they're very interested in you.

[mortal wedge]

Why is this so anxiety inducing, lol

[summer roost]

did the company that's making you an offer give you full terms yet? One place where you can stall, if you want to stall, is asking questions about comp, bonus, 401k, medical insurance, etc...

You can also just say that you'll be out of town for the rest of the year, and would it be OK if you get back to them in January?

[mortal wedge]

They didn't draft up the full official letter yet, just gave the highlights of comp, bonus, medical, stocks, etc.

[summer roost]

if you're their first choice of the 3, they'll want to work with you to make it happen. They're very unlikely to change their mind just because you ask for a week. 2 weeks would normally be a lot, but considering it's the end of the year, I think you'd be able to ask for that.

the only thing I'd be very careful to avoid doing is accepting the job and then changing your mind.

Because once you accept the offer, they'll call up any other candidates that they've still got on the hook, and tell them that the position has been filled. Backing out after that causes them a bunch of extra work and makes you look bad.

[mortal wedge]

YEah, agreed.

[summer roost]

if you ask for more time to decide, the worst case scenario is that they say "no, we need an answer by X date"

[mortal wedge]

True

[summer roost]

I mean, in theory they could say "Oh, nevermind then, we'll just go with our second choice" - but that's pretty damn unlikely, and would be a sure sign of something dysfunctional going on at that company

[mortal wedge]

YEah, that makes sense. I just don't want to screw it up, lol. This would be a substantial upgrade to my current situation.

[summer roost]

as far as managing the anxiety goes, just try to consider how the company will see the things that you say. "I'm waiting to hear back from another company" isn't a weird thing for them to hear, so it'd be very weird if they reacted poorly.

and if the company reacts unreasonably to a reasonable request, it gives you very interesting information about what working for that company would be like.

[mortal wedge]

Tbh my company super deserves it. My months in the promotion making fell through because "we don't want to promote anyone right now" then days later sent out a letter congratulating like four people on getting promoted. It was insulting af

[summer roost]

yeah, I wouldn't accept a counteroffer from them in that case, honestly.

[mortal wedge]

It's definitely not a straightforward/easy decision for me to make. I love the work, it's interesting and I'm definitely learning a lot from some extremely well qualified people, but... stuff like that is not great for employee retention

[cloud spindle]

What are some entry level positions that would help advance a career in programming. I am currently attending to learn python. I have the basics down and. Learning through doing some projects. But I get distracted easily. So I don't always dedicate the amount of time I should to this. I am learning but need a push to focus and make this a bigger priority.

[spark cobalt]

An entry level of position whatever niche in the industry you're interested in.

[summer roost]

One of my favorites is to ask the user to imagine some CPU-bound algorithm - matrix multiplication in pre-allocated matrices, or something like that. Then I ask how many threads would be best to use for minimizing the total amount of time it takes to complete.

[peak halo]

all

[summer roost]

that wouldn't be the worst answer I've heard.

just the second worst.

[peak halo]

the worst was 4

[summer roost]

yep.

why?

[balmy spade]

why?

[peak halo]

why?

[summer roost]

that would be wrong, indeed 🙂

[peak halo]

I think it would be however many CPUs you have, so that each CPU is working on one thread

[summer roost]

yep. More or less.

[peak halo]

switching between two or more threads for the same task is worse than doing it serially

[summer roost]

any answer that doesn't use the word "CPUs" or "cores" is off base.

[peak halo]

not four.

[summer roost]

the right answer is that it depends on what else the machine is doing, and on how many cores the machine has.

I'm not looking for a number, I'm looking for an answer that indicates that they understand context switches.

yeah, that'd be covered in an OS class.

never heard of it

I've still never heard of it, so I can't make any recommendations one way or the other 🙂

anyway, if someone says they've never used threads, I wouldn't ask that question. But if someone says they have used threads, that question is totally fair game. It helps to ensure that they understand what sorts of problems threads are good for, and when adding threads might make things slower instead of faster.

for data structures questions to juniors, I usually just ask something that requires tree traversal or something. Reverse a binary tree, reverse a doubly linked list, something.

I also like to ask about the complexity classes of different data structures - say, finding an element in an unsorted list vs a sorted list vs a binary tree vs a hash table.

and assuming they get that question right, I like to ask whether finding an item in a hash table is always faster than finding one in a sorted list

I think the threading one is an important question to ask before giving someone any sort of systems programming role where they might try to speed something up using threads. Threads can waste a ton of resources when used frivolously, and make the program slower. Someone who doesn't know that should definitely not be using threads to try to parallelize a CPU-bound algorithm.

Oh, another great question: Your team is responsible for keeping a particular service up. You get an urgent problem ticket one day: someone says that every request they send to the API is timing out. What do you do?

[spark cobalt]

"it works on my machine"

[summer roost]

I've seen people really founder on that question. Like, unable to make any suggestions at all about how to debug the issue.

[spark cobalt]

I think that's where people screws up. There's no "correct" answer, just a few leads you probably want to look into.

It's just phrased in a way, and also given the context of where the question is being asked, the interviewee likely thinks there's a specific correct answer and fumbles cuz there isn't one

[summer roost]

The bare minimum successful answer is "check the logs"

[spark cobalt]

One lead can be a network related issue.

[summer roost]

Yep, that's where we'd go next if there was nothing in the logs.

[foggy raft]

Where do I go to ask questions?

[elfin marsh]

are mediocre grades a sign that my career in cs won't be a good one ?

just being incredibly realistic here lol

[spark cobalt]

Not necessarily. But it may generally limit what kinds of roles you'd be able to do. For example if the classes you're struggling in are in math, then you'll probably not do well in data science, AI/ML, related roles.

[elfin marsh]

what abt web development cos that's what i really enjoy

[spark cobalt]

Your career is a life-long journey that you haven't started yet. You might start off a little weaker compared to your peers, but that wouldn't reflect your abilities once you have a couple of years of experience under your belt.

Are the classes you're struggling in web development related?

[elfin marsh]

not sure how python is related to web dev tho lol its introductory class to programming but covers algos and data struct for some reason.

[spark cobalt]

You're struggling in your Python class?

[elfin marsh]

yup i am for exams . assignments are still ok.

[spark cobalt]

How are your exam scores comparatively to your peers? Is it below average?

[elfin marsh]

i think most of us don't do quite well or just passes

[spark cobalt]

Just a number grade might not paint the whole picture.

[elfin marsh]

a few do well of course

[spark cobalt]

I wouldn't stress about it.

[elfin marsh]

yeah i'm just worried that a pass degree in this would not land me a job

[spark cobalt]

Lots of people don't put their GPA on their resume. It's typically you have the degree or not.

Focus on making web related projects that will compel a manager to hire you over someone that may have a higher GPA. Ultimately that's how you'll show you're fit for a role.

[elfin marsh]

sure that sounds like a plan .

[smoky quest]

You could work towards improving your grades. They are a reflection of your proficiency after all.
Otherwise, not so great grades mean you won't necessarily have access to the best jobs

[tropic sky]

what if i dont have good grades ? so do i need to work upon my skills ?

[smoky quest]

Best jobs will be filled first with the best applicants. The lower your grades and performance, the less great the job will be.
Note again that most companies won't care about your grades. But the grades is a proxy for you to get an idea of how you will perform relatively to others

[tropic sky]

My first went bad because of my mental health and i scored 60% the next year i improved a bit and got 70% rn total percentage sits at 68% , and i am afraid about my career 😢

[smoky quest]

As long as you get your degree, you will be fine.
You may not get into google brain or nasa, but you will find something

[tropic sky]

i am not looking for google or nasa but what i want to ask is , how should i approach these last semesters , should i focus on my skills and how so ? I appreciate your answers

[smoky quest]

Improve in the areas where you have the most difficulty. So study them more, do some exercises and projects that are related to them

Plus the projects can be useful for your resume. So you get to kill two birds with one stone

[tropic sky]

I will . Thank you

[elfin marsh]

i scored all A's in my psychology major didn't mean i got a well paying job

that's the frustrating part

[summer roost]

Yeah, my work is predominantly Python and C++

[steep minnow]

hello I would need help for my python program who can help me please, it is to code a cross in a square

[teal aspen]

What website is that?

[near ocean]

Gradcracker

[teal aspen]

That's a fast answer haha, thank you!

[vapid jay]

Bit of a weird question but maybe someone else has had this issue.

Any advice for juggling total compensation and work life balance as a junior dev? I'm living in the Twin Cities (MN) and at my first dev job I'm working effectively 20 hours a week fully remote while making $75k/y. In reality I have to be available for 8.5 hours per day, but it's rare that I work that much. I bought a property and am renting out rooms making money that way as well. It seems that that property ownership and renting is a more tax preferred income stream. Would it be worth switching my current job to make more money? I'm not sure how common it is to get into some FAANG job and continue with an effective 20 hour a week fully remote WLB. It seems like jumping into a job that expected 40 hours a week in person, or possibly more hours would not be a wise decision from a financial or WLB perspective.

[white relic]

Would you make more money by switching jobs? Probably, you can find that out by interviewing and getting offers.
Would a new job require more than 20 hours a week and cut into your free time / reduce your ability to tend your investment property? Also probably.
Would it be worth it? Only you can decide that, it is a matter of what kind of life you want to have

75k is not bad in low COL area for low experience. To get that for 20 hours a week is what I would consider a sweet deal.

[gilded valley]

You can also use the interview to get an idea of what the work is like. Questions about work-life balance, how the team picks, prioritises and assigns work, the kind of problems people are solving.

Applying to jobs seems like it's probably positive EV

[vapid jay]

Yeah I think this might be the call. That and finding people with a similar situation and attempting to get hired directly into their team.

To clarify I don't mind being on call for 8 hours a day, I just like my current situation because I have 4 hours of that on-call time to do whatever I like within my home, like upskill, etc.

[white relic]

It may be worth considering why they pay you a FTE salary for being on call for only the amount of time a typical employee would spend in the office

if business picks up or money gets tight or somebody up the chain decides to reorganize, you could find yourself being expected to pick up more work.

Who puts juniors "on call" anyway, that seems odd

[vapid jay]

Like I'm expected to work and respond to messages for 8.5 hours a day but in reality I work 20 hours or less and that's the norm here
It's not formal "on call", they just don't track if we're working and don't really care.

[white relic]

ah

yeah, that's not really on call

[vapid jay]

So there are some activities I can do during the work day that free up my time later, like working out (home gym), studying other things, so on.

So normally I only work 4 hours a day, or less.

[white relic]

tbh that sounds like a pretty unpleasant work environment to me

[green cargo]

hello

[vapid jay]

There are some times I willingly go into the office and prefer it just because I get to see people

[white relic]

I worked in an office with that ... "culture" for about a year. Then everybody except me got fired.
(simplification of actual events)

[green cargo]

ggg

[dusky mulch]

Hi guys i am an 18 years old who want to become a software engineer but i can't study computer science or related those areas because i am already in my first year of English Language Teacher. So i have to learn by my own, can someone give me some basic advice to help to my career path?

[finite marsh]

switch majors

[white relic]

Switch majors

[dusky mulch]

i cant do that because in turkey it is complicated

[white relic]

I don't know how it works in Turkey, but it is unrealistic to become a software engineer by self-study while also following another totally unrelated course of study. You'll be in competition with people who actually did take CS and the people you want to hire you will want to know why you majored in English education if you want to be a software engineer

[delicate bane]

why is it complicated

[gritty rivet]

From what I understand in a lot of countries, it's just not an option without starting over, sometimes even the whole application process

[gritty rivet]

Here in the US, if getting a relevant degree is not an option, a bootcamp is often a good option. Whether you do a bootcamp or pure self-study, they key is building a) a strong portfolio and b) a good network of connections in the industry.

I'm personally an SWE with an irrelevant degree... started my career shift in general IT support which has a much lower bar for entry, but the experience can be relevant. This may not be the best path for everyone but it worked well for me

[delicate bane]

hmm interesting. if they have only gone through half of their first year, it may be worth it to start over depending on all the other factors. bc surely others have done it before.

[gritty rivet]

^^^ this may be true

[small raft]

No. Have a neck first

Reaction on reaction imminent

👀

[scenic mist]

Hi

is anyone online?

[wind ledge]

Hey, yes!

[scenic mist]

Actually i am a final year student looking for nice full time opportunities in software developer role

can someone help me out with that?

since i am good at programming, and would looking actively for job opportunities

[white relic]

!rule 9 recruitment isn't allowed here but see the channel description, there are some links

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[wild pilot]

It all depends on your preferences. As far as I know, software development is very much in demand. Therefore, try to search for vacancies on websites and describe what skills you have

[scenic mist]

can u help me out where should i search

i recently applied on different companies careers pages, but didnt get any reply

is there some good website other than linkedin, where companies hire, and its an easy process

?

\

[white relic]

When I was searching for jobs, I would use sites like indeed and LinkedIn to browse for openings, then when I knew which companies were hiring I would go to the websites of the ones I was interested in and apply directly.

I was mostly looking for jobs in a particular geographic region. If you're open to move wherever, a different approach might be better.

[dire bay]

hello

[sleek egret]

?

[stable elbow]

I need to remake my LinkedIn profile, but I've been blasting away

[spring flare]

finally made it to the itch.io
https://hiross-xd.itch.io/wild-campers

[fickle egret]

Heey

[cobalt moat]

what are options for an 18 year old to make money from home using computer science?

[near ocean]

Use the computer to apply to university, graduate with degree and then use it to apply to jobs

[cobalt moat]

love the sarcasm, found it super helpful

[near ocean]

Only mildly sarcasm
You'll find that there is no easy money working from home for non-degree holders in software dev

Your best bet is getting a degree

[cobalt moat]

lemme just pull 200k out of my pocket

[near ocean]

There are ways to minimize tuition fees you know...

[cobalt moat]

not really

im forced to go out of state and its like 60k a year and i get no financial aid besides a gpa scholarship

[true harness]

what country are you in?

[near ocean]

Why are you forced out of state?

[delicate bane]

no scholarships or grants? why no financial aid?

[near ocean]

The alternative is sit around and hope you get lucky, really

[white relic]

60k per year is an expensive private college

[near ocean]

Theres definitely the state college way i've seen people talk about and suggest but im not american and out of the education system so 🤷

[cobalt moat]

all out of state schools are 50-60k

i already know how to code in like 5 different languages, why do i need a degree

[near ocean]

Do you have a portfolio?

[cobalt moat]

i have projects, not a full portfolio

my github is full of a bunch of random projects mostly in python

[near ocean]

Do you have a CV and have you tried applying to jobs?

[dreamy shadow]

Because without a degree, not many companies will even bother to give you an interview.

[near ocean]

we cant see your github, we're just assuming here

[cobalt moat]

i dont need a full time career, just a side hustle

[white relic]

Let's take an example of a really good state university, Georgia Tech (no affiliation). Sticker price for out of state is 31k

[near ocean]

Free lancing would probably be even harder

[dreamy shadow]

Their github is in their about page when you click on the profile.

[near ocean]

I cant see anything on their profile

[mortal wedge]

Sometimes I think it helps to look from the standpoint of people who would hire for work. If I'm hiring someone for work, there's an inherent level of risk that the work will be low quality or bad. Why would I pick someone without a degree when I can easily pick from a pool of people who's abilities are backed by an educational institution? Especially if they don't have an extensive portfolio, how do I know they will do good work? I can't take them for their word, everyone says they will do good work. The only time I'd consider it is if they're asking for far less money than other people, which would work for me if I'm desperate or willing to take on that risk.

[dreamy shadow]

Oh, It doesn't show up in the mobile app for w/e reason lol

Oh, I think it's because it's their status. Not about me

[mortal wedge]

If you think you're going to prove to people that you do good work based on your inherent merits or something, keep in mind that that isn't something that you're even going to have a chance to showcase until later on in the hiring process. It's going to be HR and the ATS selecting applicants for the first steps and it's really easy to exclude candidates without a degree when they have numerous applicants.

[cobalt moat]

so what about side hustles, not corporate jobs

[dreamy shadow]

You can take a look at craigslist for ideas. Some that pop up are like designing a website.

[near ocean]

But again, why would they hire you over someone with experience, qualifications, education

[mortal wedge]

It's more lax, but you run into a lot of the same issues. You're inherently going to be a riskier bet. People often underestimate the amount of work that needs to go into freelance. You spend a lot of time/effort on selling yourself, making connections, growing a client base.

I freelanced for a while, but the amount of time I had to spend into the non-coding stuff was crazy

It also requires a different skillset from pure programming, as I mentioned. You may or may not already be skilled in those areas

[near ocean]

If youre not going to go into software as a career you should probably worry about spending more time on the thing you want to work full time on

[balmy mural]

It's even harder to break into freelancing imo if you don't already have a solid history of work. Either you're a senior and have the knowledge to do freelancing in specific domains, or someone in a cheaper country can be 10x cheaper than you

[mortal wedge]

Yeah. Without the experience and established client bases, you'll likely be making far less than others.

[white relic]

Freelancing from zero might work if you have good connections and aren't dependent on making money to live. Rich, well-connected parents, maybe?
People looking to skip college aren't often in that category.

[cobalt moat]

i dont want to skip college i just need to afford college

[mortal wedge]

Yeah, what I listed as cons or challenges may differ depending on circumstance. You may not need to make a lot of money, you may not need to hustle for clients if you already have connections.

[near ocean]

Youre not going to by side hustling lol

You havent said why youre only considering out of state college

[mortal wedge]

Oof

STEM degrees are still valued, but not as highly as a comp sci degree

[near ocean]

That sounds unbelievable tbh

[dreamy shadow]

lol, some states are really backwards

[white relic]

your state only has one state college?

[cobalt moat]

2 but they are both garbage and only do farming

[near ocean]

Which state is this? It feels like we're playing 20 questions

[mortal wedge]

Well. If you want to try being in state and pursuing software, a lot of employers are still willing to hire people in STEM. Math and Physics majors still can get software jobs. It's not a major detriment. It's just not a bonus either.

It can even be a bonus depending on the jobs you're looking for. Simulations modeling I'd probably lean more towards a math/physics major than comp sci

[dreamy shadow]

Man, these two weeks are so slow. I have like zero meetings, everyone out of office.

[white relic]

To be clear, we are talking about the US, right?
I don't think there's any US state without a public university that has a CS program. It might not necessarily be called State University of Whatever but I am inclined to believe your research isn't as exhaustive as you think.

[mortal wedge]

You're not, I promise

[white relic]

nope.

[mortal wedge]

I've never seen as a job seeker or a job hunter anyone care about which college their degree is from as long as they have a degree. It's a bonus if it's from a well known high quality institution like MIT or something, otherwise we care about the degree and not where you got it from.

Sorry, I meant as a job seeker or a job hirer. Or whatever the right term is

[dreamy shadow]

No degree < Degree of some kind < Degree in field < Degree in top school,
and then after 5-10 years, no one cares and it'll just be: Degree [Yes/No]

[near ocean]

More like, after first job really, noone asked me about my degree during interviews in my second job

[sleek egret]

well, the people you meet in school matter.

[white relic]

School reputation makes a difference when you're seeking a PhD because the opportunity to research whatever you want to specialize in will vary a lot depending on who the faculty are and who is willing to pay for the research.
Doesn't really matter when you're talking about a B.S. or even M.S. to go into a job.

[sleek egret]

you university friends will be the seed for many (most?) of your professional network of contacts throughout your life

or perhaps I should say, can be. it's a jump start, if you will.

[white relic]

Connections, on the other hand, definitely do matter, but the difference in connections you make at one college vs. another will be much less impactful than the fact you went to university in the first place

[sleek egret]

that changes as you become an old fart like me 🙂

few people care what school I went to 30 years ago. but I'll help the friends I made in school. and they'll help me.

[white relic]

yes, well, your career is also a source of connections.

[sleek egret]

yeah, but your school helps shape your career. feedback effects, baby

[white relic]

College connections haven't helped me, if anything the opposite. But I'm sure that's true for many people.

I mean, since I got my first job, which was a while ago.

[sleek egret]

really? that's too bad. maybe that will change as you get older and nostalgia kicks in 🙂

[mortal wedge]

I tend not to get into the other benefits of going to college since people often disagree about them. I just focus on it being useful to prove to employers you're not full of it

[delicate bane]

bro why are you complaining. i need more of weeks like this

[dreamy shadow]

Better to make connections at work. College connections are connecting with people at the same level.

[dreamy shadow]

I'm slowly turning into a sloth. I can feel everything I know slowly fading away.

[sleek egret]

lol, I know how you feel. it seems that every new thing I learn pushes out something else from my head. my brain is full.

[delicate bane]

i dont know anything so i dont have this problem

[near ocean]

Slow weeks are bad
Been staring at my time sheet this week trying to fill it up

[spark cobalt]

Yeah this week painfully slow

[near ocean]

Also self and team assessments this week have me dying, what even is the point
Just an HR thing

[spark cobalt]

It's just I was onboarded to a new project last week and was supposed to have some brutal training session. But the dude caught the flu so 😦

[dreamy shadow]

Oh, I got a meeting

It's next year...

[spark cobalt]

There was a verbal agreement with my old project to have a meeting today but no one scheduled it on Outlook so I guess that's not happening

[near ocean]

My manager took like 4 weeks off straight
We're having a month long sprint in december and its just hard

[spark cobalt]

Fuck need to do a code review. I'm tryna leaveee

We all thought the break started on Friday. But then HR pulled a 180 and made it start on Thursday. So everyone trying to cram for the extra day

This is such a smh

[mortal wedge]

I told my job that I got an offer from another company and I'm waiting to see if they counter. Working in the meantime is... challenging. There's a decent chance that I'll be moving on anyway, so what's the point?

[dreamy shadow]

There''s so much to unpack here...

[spark cobalt]

Well, doing this can probably cause them to be less likely to counter. But it doesn't sound like you really wanna work there to begin with from your past comments

Stop, drop, and roll

[mortal wedge]

The subject material is interesting. I get to also work with some extremely knowledgable people I've benefitted from working with. But I'm significantly undercompensated. It was pretty damn insulting to have my company tell me, after working my butt off for my promotion for months "Sorry, we're not promoting anyone at the time." only to turn around and release a newsletter about all the people getting promoted. So my boss told me to go get an offer from another company, so I did, lol

[dreamy shadow]

So you leave for the other company.

[spark cobalt]

^

Sounds like a lot of potential issues that can occur in the future especially if your boss is willing to drop you so leisurely.

Employment really should be 2 way street.

[stable elbow]

that would be nice

[mortal wedge]

Nah, that probably came across poorly. My boss has been fighting for me, he's gotten frustrated that they're not promoting me because he doesn't want to lose me. But he also knows I did this the right way and this was his backup plan.

[spark cobalt]

Company bureaucracy oof

Sounds like a good guy

[mortal wedge]

There's a disconnect between the money people at top and the people on the ground who actually know who's critical to the organization. It will take them months to replace me and it will likely cost them more than they're asking for. That's completely aside from the time it would take to retrain someone

[dreamy shadow]

That's just business.

[sleek egret]

well, shit happens

[dreamy shadow]

As in, budgets for acquiring new talent is always larger than retention of talent.

[near ocean]

Its never a good idea to consider staying after you let them know you have offers imho
You'll just be looked at differently

[spark cobalt]

On the offhand, you'll be going to a new company that'll value you (money-wise) much more and assign you to much more challenging tasks!

[mortal wedge]

That makes sense. I'll probably be low key looking for other positions for the rest of my tenure at the company if they decide to full match or beat.

[mortal wedge]

Unfortunately I think it will be a step down on the level of interesting that the work is, but it's a 20% pay bump with stock options, so I'm quite satisfied with that. The work will be new, but less research and more development oriented, even though I'll still be in neuroscience

[spark cobalt]

If you made it known, wouldn't the company feel like you're a little more expendable because you carry a higher risk of leaving than others

Maybe there's some other company politics I'm not thinking about

[mortal wedge]

No idea. I know my boss and I are good, but I have no idea what's going to happen with the rest of the company.

[near ocean]

Is this a big company with lots of layers

[mortal wedge]

Not even. less than 100 employees. But... there's the business side and the science side that often have disconnects.

[spark cobalt]

Ah my company is also around like 130 employees, but we are flat hierarchy system so we have almost no bureaucratic bs

[mortal wedge]

I was about to ask what a flag heirarchy was 😄 Sounded interesting

[spark cobalt]

[dreamy shadow]

Over 70k+ emploiyees here.

[sleek egret]

that just means there's a informal and hidden social heirarchy

any group of people > 1 always has a power dynamic

[spark cobalt]

Yeah I guess. I just haven't experienced it yet.

[dreamy shadow]

So, yesterday I asked about getting a random amazon package. I got the image of the package today, but it tells me nothing about the sender... It is my full name on the package.

[spark cobalt]

What did your company say

Maybe it's a Christmas present

[sleek egret]

That sounds like a DEA sting operation

[dreamy shadow]

No, if it's from my company. It would have been directly sent to me (I'm remote) or to my closes office (Midwest). It was sent to the NE office.

[dreamy shadow]

Bruh, I'm not in some spy tv show.

[sleek egret]

you work for the DEA?

[dreamy shadow]

You think I should ask to have it forwarded to my closest office?

[mortal wedge]

I mean, how else are you going to get it? Or just mailed to you

[sleek egret]

sure, why not

[dreamy shadow]

It's .3 lbs lol

[sleek egret]

is that a lot?

[dreamy shadow]

Idk, I feel like it's oddly unprofessional getting an amazon package sent to the office.

[sleek egret]

how would amazon feel if you said that to amazon?

[dreamy shadow]

Amazon already took someone's money. Doubt they care.

Guess I'm over thinking it. I"ll just ask to have it forwarded to my closes office.

[mortal wedge]

Now I'm wondering what's in there. Please update us when you find out

[spark cobalt]

I feel like it can only be extremely bad or extremely good

[sleek egret]

plan for the worst and hope for the best

[mortal wedge]

It could be anything at this point. Anthrax. A love letter. A cheap gift card.

[sleek egret]

or a cheap gift card with a love note that has anthrax spores on it

[delicate bane]

i would also risk it. the curiosity is too strong

[dreamy shadow]

LOL, guess I'm dying then.

[delicate bane]

i think R&D will always have this problem unless there is strong science/technical leadership

"we need to cut some budgets to prepare for upcoming recession. what does this team do? who knows"

[mortal wedge]

I think you might be right

[delicate bane]

vin talked about this exact thing in his newsletter.

[mortal wedge]

Well, without R&D, you're giving up on iteration/support of your projects and you're completely giving up your validity/credibility

[delicate bane]

yeah its one of the most crucial elements for AI work but theres always issues getting the business to understand. vin expands on strategies for technical leaders to get this across to them

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, like how AI is actually really dumb. And it's not some terminator movie.

[delicate bane]

i would be willing to be your "box opener" if i was your coworker. kinda like a poison tester but for amazon boxes

[mortal wedge]

Lol I was going to say "Is there anyone you don't like that much who can open it for you"

[delicate bane]

ah btw skyglow

i ended up sending that kindle ebook to one of the seniors in the company who helped me a lot when i started

they said they really appreciated it but idk if theyll actually read an ebook so maybe its just the thought that counts lol

[dreamy shadow]

Never getting read lmao

[delicate bane]

lmao probably

the neat thing with these ebooks though is that you can see if the person redeemed their book or not

[dreamy shadow]

Gifted books go onto the shelf to be never touched again.

I haven't read half the books I bought for myself lol

[delicate bane]

what would be the equivalent of an ebook? down into the depths of the inbox - never to be touched? oh wait, thats just regular emails

[dreamy shadow]

I'm still going to be sending starbucks gift cards, one tier less bribery feeling than amazon gift cards lol.

Where, starbucks gift card is one tier above asking for a physical mailing address of ex-bosses.

[delicate bane]

you havent done it yet? just make sure to follow-up with the person (what i did). otherwise the email might get lost in the depths of the inbox

[dreamy shadow]

I'm sending everything out tomorrow. Going to set up for tonight.

[delicate bane]

i mostly did it already bc we're off early this week + basically everyone is out of office next week

[dreamy shadow]

I'm going to just send to personal emails this time around, so should be received sooner. Still need to get my most recent ex-bosses's email. Only have their phone number before they left. Didn't get time to ask for the email.

[spark cobalt]

Sky where's our gift card

[dreamy shadow]

[mortal wedge]

I think out of all the books I've been recommended or gifted in my life I've read like.... 2? Especially because it's mainly people who like the book and assume you'd like it too. But if the new ceo sends out a book to everyone to read like "Why overworking is a GOOD thing" I'm not going to read that shit

You want me to be a more productive employee, upgrade my laptop, don't buy me a book of corporate buzzwords

[spark cobalt]

7-8 hours of driving here we go!

Buy me better internet fr.

[dreamy shadow]

LOL, parents used to have this giant ass book called: "The Age of Surveillance Capitalism: The Fight for a Human Future at the New Frontier of Power"
Size of a hard cover dictionary. Apparently it was a gift from a co-worker.

[spark cobalt]

One of reasons I don't work from home is cuz internet is always so spotty

[delicate bane]

bruh you should just fly home

[spark cobalt]

I need to deliver one of my cars down. It's a gift for my sister

I'm flying back up so nw.

[dreamy shadow]

I used to have garbage internet from AT&T. AT&T here still uses phone lines/dial up cables. Switched to comcast w/ Coax cable. World of difference.

[mortal wedge]

I'm not sure I could place a dollar value on working remote. I legit am worried that I'd get fired from any in person position. It's just so nice to be able to take a nap midday and work from wherever I want, whenever I want, and as long as I meet my deliverables nobody cares.

[near ocean]

Its easier than you think, what % raise would you accept if it came with "in person work only"?
At my current job i wouldnt take anything less than 1/3 more
That'd be £60k total at least to even get me to think about the office 5days a week

Seems HR is very careful with their wording when setting hybrid expectations
Less "come in because we say so", more "we would like you to but it's optional"
People would just up and quit otherwise

[mortal wedge]

I've seen some "hybrid" roles be like "4+ days in the office per week"

Also, I don't know what raise I would take if it came with in person only. Because I suspect it would affect things like my overall productivity/career trajectory.

But I suspect it's somewhere between 25 and 75% for me. Real narrow range, I know

[spark cobalt]

People come to work and leave a 2 to do that over here

[mortal wedge]

Haha nice

[white relic]

A woman at my last job had the habit of coming in at 0400 so she could leave at 12

She arranged to not have many afternoon meetings most days

[mortal wedge]

0400 O_O

[gilded valley]

If I could get away with 6-2 I'd do it in a heartbeat

[dreamy shadow]

I actually don't mind going to the office given the drive is < 30mins. AND the pay covers the extra traveling costs.

[mortal wedge]

Probably user-dependent. I hope the remote job market keeps expanding. Some people are more productive that way

[dreamy shadow]

Currently, it's at least 1+ hour by train + additional train ticket cost.

"Our team comes in Tuesdays/Thursdays, you should come in during that time"
Me:

[mortal wedge]

Yeah, I don't know how people do 1-2 hr+ commutes. I mean, I get it. IF that's your only option, you do it to survive. But oof.

[balmy spade]

Yeah, I did 2.5+ hour commutes (one way) for four years where I work now. 2/10 would not do again.

[delicate bane]

i wouldve just moved after the first 6 months

[dreamy shadow]

Given that you don't have kids in school.

[delicate bane]

kids can make new friends

[dreamy shadow]

But in my case, I was hired as fully remote. So "should" and any other suggestions can go right into the

[delicate bane]

"starting in 2023, new corporate policy from the CEO says you must come in X number of days per week"

[dreamy shadow]

"Starting in 2023, 1000 new job applications have been set out by Skyglow"

[delicate bane]

i think i would be okay with hybrid policy since i like going in the office but im in the minority ik

[dreamy shadow]

Only if I'm comped for the additional travel costs. Also after this car market bs goes away.

[delicate bane]

oh yeah def if commute isnt crazy

[dreamy shadow]

Our entire team flew in for a week, so I was in the office the entire week. Never doing that again. Productivity was at like 10%.

[mortal wedge]

You joke, but a lot of companies are doing this. To their own detriment, imo.

[dreamy shadow]

Company: What are you going to do? LEAVE?
Worker: Yes?
Company:

[delicate bane]

rip the peeps who have moved to new states

[mortal wedge]

"But but company loyalty! " Be loyal to us, even if we're not loyal to you 🙃

[delicate bane]

i mean better to just leave tbh since surely there are many other places still remote-friendly

[mortal wedge]

There are, but those jobs are more competitive.

[delicate bane]

true

[mortal wedge]

Linkedin's stats were 80% of job applicants looking for the 20% of the jobs that were remote. Take that as you will

[delicate bane]

yeah i posted a graphic related to this

different numbers but same underlying theme

wait im pretty sure we talked about this lmao

jk we talked about something similar but not this graphic #career-advice message

[mortal wedge]

Yeah, it's a common concern these days. I just try to help set realistic expectations

[balmy spade]

What can I say. I like the forest more than the city.

[mortal wedge]

Huh, I've never heard the phrase "labor market tightness" before

[delicate bane]

i think if you have some YoE under your belt, i think you are def more competitive since the entry-level market probably accounts for a good chunk

really? economic reports love using that phrase

[mortal wedge]

It sounds vaguely naughty.

[delicate bane]

"tight labor market, etc." i think your mind is just naughty jk

[delicate bane]

hey at least you know what you value. thats important

[mortal wedge]

I'm in an interesting place. I'm a fairly competitive applicant, but since I'm in a niche, relevant jobs trickle in. I can't just apply to hundreds of positions where I'm a strong applicant. It's like a dozen a week, tops

[delicate bane]

oof. yeah being in a niche field is tough. best of luck dude

[balmy spade]

Be sure not to underestimate the value your experience brings even if your focus has been niche.

[mortal wedge]

It's fairly nice, to be honest. Means I can spend less time applying. But more patience is required.

[stable elbow]

ya'll think theres a hiring slowdown cuz its the holidays?

[hallow quail]

no theres a hiring slowdown because of inflation

inflation = higher loan interest rates = companies cant higher infinite people and have to fire people they can't afford to have

[stable elbow]

market is still buzzing though

just not landing any interviews, so im wondering if i should just relax a bit for the holidays, or review and keep trucking

[delicate bane]

i would relax but thats me

at my company, most people are out of the office

that includes HR peeps and hiring managers

but in the end its up to you

[tepid shale]

ok hello

[spark cobalt]

Just get ready to spam hard when everyone starts up again

[stable elbow]

just grinding out the data analytics certificate from google atm. trying to finish it in 5 days since I know pretty much all the material already

[delicate bane]

hello you are probably looking for #python-discussion if you are looking to chat. this channel is for #career-advice and related topics

[tepid shale]

what is data analyst job found?

[patent grove]

how much do yall think data engineers at non tech(construction company) are supposed to make yearly in cali
its a huge construction company

[delicate bane]

hmm im not sure

speaking of data engineers, from a newsletter i follow:

I have seen time and time again. An internship ends up being the reason someone gets a job. When you’re a junior data engineer. You have nothing. Nothing in terms of work experience and all you can do is put the same example of projects from school that everyone else has on your resume.

Point being, internships will give you real experience that you can talk through. They also possibly have return offers attached to them. Yes, many companies are cutting some of these, but it’s still better than nothing. I was lucky enough to get an internship in the last quarter of my college experience and I was also lucky to get a return offer.

[dreamy shadow]

I was trying to just graduate asap during my senior year. Best advice I got was: "Why tf you trying to graduate so fast? Apply for jobs now as a student. Otherwise instead of being a student & unemployed, you'll just be unemployed."

[patent grove]

the thing is ive been working for this company for a whole year now but part time

would it atleast be 6 figures total comp?

[dreamy shadow]

For CA def you should be getting 6 figures. If not, you're in poverty lol

Students in CA, San Fran area def easily gets ~120k+ total comp

[ashen palm]

I'm already employed as a Jr SRE. I have bachelor's in electrical engineering. Should I go for masters in computer science just to prove my proficiency in software engineering?

[dreamy shadow]

You can. Masters also helps if you want to head into management.

[ashen palm]

I'm thinking university of texas at Austin vs Bath University which is 50% cheaper.

[dreamy shadow]

Never heard of Bath University (UK I guess from google?). UT Austin is a good school. You can also look at online CS master programs if you just want to fill the checkbox.

UT Austin & Georgia Tech Online CS masters are ~10k USD.

[crisp heart]

Hello frnds

I'm new here

[spark cobalt]

Hi! Welcome!

[steel kindle]

I think the median is a tad below 100 for entry level

90k is definitely not poverty wages though, even in SF

[sleek egret]

yar

median household income in SF is $120k. the mean is $167k

in 2015, the median in SF it was $90k

[dreamy shadow]

Hmm, what have you heard that was negative? I understand OMSCS & other online Masters are more geared towards one being able to self study and learn materials on their own.

[pine sleet]

No way

Fr?

[pine sleet]

Ooh. I've applied to both of those

Though I think I prefer UT Austin simply because it's in state

[dreamy shadow]

Oh! UT austin application finally opened up

I was waiting for them to open up, guess I should finish my application.

[pine sleet]

Hm? I submitted mine a month ago

TAMU UT Austin and GT

[molten bone]

Hi, guys .Is there any job that complies A.I engineering and software engineering?
, I am a junior programmer, recently the Chatgpt shows alert that software development might be replaced by A.I , so I want to know is there any job as a software developer that complies with algorithm and AI , so he can have a better value in the age of AI?

[dreamy shadow]

I was waiting for their website to open up the MS in DS. Didn't check for a while. Glad you bought it up.

[sleek egret]

all "AI engineering" IS "software engineering"

but not all "software engineering" is "AI engineering"

[dreamy shadow]

I remember sitting in a 4th year CS course on AI. Covered what AI actually meant.

[balmy mural]

I'm about as worried about AI replacing my job as a dentist would be about electric toothbrushes replacing their job.

• godlygeek, 2022

[pine sleet]

Goated quote

[sleek egret]

godlygeek is wise?

how odd

[pine sleet]

Aw hell nah I wouldn't let that one slide

[white relic]

I’m actually using GPT3 in a production system. The mistake people are making is they are asking “how can I use this to automate a smart person’s job”, when they should be asking “what would I do if I had unlimited dumb people”
https://twitter.com/ZackKorman/status/1599317547509108736

[sleek egret]

that's a rather wise statement, IMO

[fallow tusk]

hello is resume and cv the same? if they are asking for cv can i just send my resume?

[sleek egret]

cv is what europeans use

[fallow tusk]

oh so its just the same just depends on where they are from?

i have nothing to add is this good enough or theres more i can probably add?

[dreamy shadow]

No, there's a difference. https://icc.ucdavis.edu/materials/resume/resumecv
CV is generally longer, covers more things.

[sleek egret]

You went to a university with no name?

[dreamy shadow]

If you graduated, just put Month, Year.

[fallow tusk]

no i prefer not to put it for anonimity

[sleek egret]

was a joke bra. anyway, my only suggestion would be to try to add (or just frame existing points) in terms of accomplishments rather than just tasks.

[fallow tusk]

oh i see noted

[fallow tusk]

oh isee this one i think i can add

[dreamy shadow]

Like mentioned above, add in what you accomplished. Try expanding out your intern to 3-4 bullet points of what you completed. Don't just list tools.

[fallow tusk]

btw the thing i sent is it a resume or cv?

[dreamy shadow]

Resume

[sleek egret]

it's also a cv

[dreamy shadow]

Also, I hope you didn't just send that. That copy needs quite a bit of revision.

[dreamy shadow]

[fallow tusk]

this is not the final im drafting my resume or cv what its called

[true harness]

a CV should have literally everything you've ever done that's sorta relevant. a resume is typically 1-2 pages at most, and has your most significant and relevant info

[delicate bane]

there are a lot of use cases where its still useable. for example, im using it atm as part of an internal tool with a human-in-the-loop system who are smart enough to catch the dumb mistakes of the model but its still useful since it speeds up their workflow by hours. these are nontechnical folks.

[true harness]

you should write more about your internship. what actual impact did you have. ok, you created forms, but what were they used for? how many people used the forms? what volume of data?

also, put college GPA if it's good

[fallow tusk]

what is the format for the address?

[true harness]

what address

[fallow tusk]

my uni address

[sleek egret]

something that can be understood and used

[dreamy shadow]

Are you in the States?

[true harness]

honestly i wouldn't put an address there. but if you want to, just use the format that people where you live use

[fallow tusk]

nope

[versed orchid]

guys i am in 8th can you all help with my exam tomorrow. syllabus-functions? anyone

[dreamy shadow]

I don't want to give wrong advice.

[fallow tusk]

this is what i just did i 🫡

[delicate bane]

they were right, no? were they someone already in the industry? or just wise

[sleek egret]

no one wants to hire a bum

[dreamy shadow]

They were 100% right. I value my senior internship a lot.

[sleek egret]

one of the mysteries of the universe is that the more you need a job, the less people want to hire you for that job

[dreamy shadow]

You say desperation. I say lower wages -Startup

[sleek egret]

if you offer to work for less, you signal low quality and the employer is less likely to make you an offer.

after an expression of interest is made by the employer, they are more likely to select you if they can negotiate you down.

weird pricing psychology dynamics

[delicate bane]

yeah thats good. for some students, they think they can just graduate, do the bare minimum during school, and then somehow auto-magically get a job after applying...

[sleek egret]

they also get upset when they don't make top 2% wages within 1 year on the job

[delicate bane]

[dreamy shadow]

I feel personally attacked

[sleek egret]

lol

[delicate bane]

dw you at least got an internship so you dont count

[dreamy shadow]

urgh, wish I didn't learn UT Austin application opened up. Need to go ask for LoR again.

There goes my Christmas basically

[delicate bane]

lmao. tragic. if i was in your shoes, that wouldve been on my list

but thats bc its in-state for me

[sleek egret]

xmas happens whether you're ready or not

[dreamy shadow]

I'm doing online. Rather not have to physically go to Texas for various reasons...

[sleek egret]

what's wrong with texas?

is the problem that it's full of texans?

[white relic]

all the cool people are moving to Austin these days

[dreamy shadow]

That and georgia

[delicate bane]

all the really cool people have been here

[delicate bane]

i mean if you already applied to other one...i mean its up to you

[dreamy shadow]

Applying to both, although better chance getting into Gtech

[delicate bane]

idk if youll get any replies back during the holidays

[dreamy shadow]

Applications don't close till Feb for Gtech, so I don't think I will hear back till April(?)

[delicate bane]

like for your LoR

[dreamy shadow]

Oh, yea that too. Should be easy though, as I already asked them for Gtech. Just change the school name

I had to write the letter myself for one, jfc their letter was bad.

[delicate bane]

lol why dont you just edit it yourself? or do they have to submit it

[dreamy shadow]

They have to submit. Although Gtech one was mostly just a questionnaire from what I've read. Something like: Do you trust this person to hold a ladder? Or something ridiculous. With a section to add a letter at the end.

[delicate bane]

wth. thats weird

[dreamy shadow]

It's faster though, for the recommenders given that they don't provide a letter. Less of writing fluffy bs lol

[delicate bane]

thats true

[dreamy shadow]

I'm guess UT Austin is going to be more traditional.

[delicate bane]

is it? how many LoR would you have to submit

[dreamy shadow]

Optional, 3 max.

[delicate bane]

so technically you dont have to submit any

[pine sleet]

Me right now

[balmy mural]

Just move to a third world country. I'm starting next year and my salary puts me in the top 2% household incomes in the entire country

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, but not submitting anything is def going to count against you. Similar to how a bad GRE will.

[sleek egret]

I guess that's one "solution"

[delicate bane]

i guess it depends on how many are applying at the time and if they are competitive applicants or not

[balmy mural]

I jest, but it's a massive problem to have a massive portion of the country be jobless. Definitely not a good thing to be in the top 2% if I'm just starting

[dreamy shadow]

Apparently UT Austin added a new requirement new for 2023 "Quest Assessment", which is extra cost. I guess too many applicants with bare minimum math skills was trying to get a DS degree.

[delicate bane]

hmm yeah its probably competitive. lots of peeps trying to switch careers, level up, undergrads not wanting to enter workforce, etc.

[dreamy shadow]

Honestly, I'm all for it. The amount of questions in #data-science-and-ml I see that basically are asking "I know nothing about this topic, I've learned nothing on my own, how can I build a rocket?"

Switch elsewhere, DS is full.

[vocal locust]

I'm so scared man. Did nothing freshman year, am 2nd year now. Joined some clubs, gonna try to find projects and stuff. Really hope to get one internship before grad.

[vapid jay]

Worked for me tbh but I only make 75k fully remote

I only worked through maybe 3 textbooks outside of class and like a month of leetcode

Didn't even graduate

Stop freaking people out its not that competitive esp if you have a BS