career-advice

[cerulean spade]

than working in a company, have a lot difference?

[near ocean]

Yes

They are worlds apart

[buoyant seal]

no and yes.
pet projects are useful, and they are closest possible experience to what u do at work in company
but they are certainly not everything

in real work at a company

1. You colloborate with other multiple people, you need to follow standards present in a team (in open source project it will be same depending on its quality though)
2. Project built with seriousness, has more maturity... in having proper planning/analysis/design from what real users need for their product (that makes half of things at least transformed to another level) (Again it is possible having it in open source of a necessary size and quality, but certainly not in project where u are one only developer, although even that can be arranged)
3. Projects builds with seriousness, have requirements for quality, for reliability, scalability, security stuff. It is all more serious (again possible having in open source projects, but very rare any project having same even close matching high level of requirements)
4. We work on dedicated on work projects 40+ hours per week, that alone makes difference

[cerulean spade]

understood

do you guess fundamentals of math is a lot important for work like developer?

[near ocean]

Math fundamentals are important in any engineering/development you do

[buoyant seal]

unless u a in Game Development or Data Science, or some another obscure field, i would say not really.
it is very useful to know Linear Algebra at least for the sake of being able to do two and three dimensional graphics on your own though

in general math takes place in just expanding your brain for learning. People who learned it well can certainly find a way to apply it in their every day work
I guess it requires understanding it at necessary level + wishing to be applied, in order to see how it can be important

well, i at least i say about Higher level math.

[gilded valley]

What is the job?

That does not answer the question

[buoyant seal]

Only work/commercial experience actually counts

[gilded valley]

Is it for a registered company with a real revenue stream or sizable seed funding? Or is it for some internet thing like making discord bots?

[buoyant seal]

It is not even going to be full time job... As u haven't finished school yet, right?

Anyway... We have too little details

[white relic]

it really depends on too many factors like location, industry, and the nature of the work

[gilded valley]

I would suggest asking the national minimum wage for an adult

Ok, I would suggest asking for that

You are 16 and represent not a very good value proposition

That is not exploitation

[buoyant seal]

U have no education, no experience.
It will be a wonder of getting any software developer job.
U a exploiting them in this case xD

[gilded valley]

You provide more value to the restaurant as a waiter than to this mystery company as a 16yo with a computer

[vapid jay]

I'd imagine if you can prove to them your worth then they will pay it. But if you go in demanding €19-€22/hour and cannot prove pretty sure they will say shove it

[buoyant seal]

Imagine getting hired for being a doctor/surgeon without medial education.
It will be same.

Blinked. U have already long relationship with this company then.

[white relic]

Asking for the bare minimum seems silly, unless there are different minimums for adults and younger people and they can legally pay you less

that said, you won't be expecting much higher in any case

[buoyant seal]

Probably easiest will be asking them for any fair salary they offer and taking regardless of its size xD

Too bad, that question regarding your salary expectations always sounds first

[dense mesa]

@vapid jay I understand your point about getting more as a waiter, with software there's typically a long "ramp up" period before you can deliver something valuable to justify high wages. Whereas with the other job, training is quicker and you impact the business straight after

[buoyant seal]

Anyway, I guess it is too unique situation for any people ever having such cases

U a swimming kind of unknown water here 🙂

Working as software Dev at the age 14-16 officially is pretty much unheard of

[dense mesa]

That's great feedback and shows you're getting on well at the company. There's still a lot of other factors that are difficult to appreciate unless you're managing resources

[white relic]

Expectations for internships and especially paid internships vary a lot. I wouldn't feel comfortable making a suggestion not knowing how things usually work in Germany. And you probably should be skeptical of any advice you find online especially if it doesn't mention location.

[buoyant seal]

Competion is moderately high among graduates from university. Dozens people per place.

Competion is ridiculous high among people with no education.
Few hundreds of people per working place.

Having minor working with no education?
I would say it is something like 1 out of 1000 cases at least in terms of rarity
(Company have additional problems just from labour laws regarding minors here in addition, just to transfer intellectual property rights)

All people without bachelor's degree are considered people without education in terms of IT.
I could imagine some forms of equivalent a bit less forms of education could be taken into account though as some very poor replacement at least

[white relic]

Be aware of whatever the average starting wage is for developers in your region. Yours will be lower than that.

[vapid jay]

i want to work in a restaurant as a waiter, any tips for me?

where are you working btw, which platform i mean

[vapid jay]

The name of the company?

[vapid jay]

you are directly working in a company?

Depends on if you mean the waiter job or the software developer job

Either way, if it‘s the former yeah and if it‘s the latter soon but not rn

dude i am the one who is supposed to be a waiter

[vapid jay]

How old are you?

[vapid jay]

15 :D

[vapid jay]

And where do you live?

[vapid jay]

in my mother's house :D

I mean in which country

[vapid jay]

does it matter?

Of course it does

What may apply in Germany won‘t apply in India

[buoyant seal]

And salary difference will be around 10 times between countries like that for entry positions, yeah

[vapid jay]

it will bro, most of the hotel workers in India are underage people

anyways i don't want to be a waiter anymore, i better be a software engineer

[vapid jay]

That literally does not matter

[vapid jay]

Okay good luck

[fallow summit]

good luck man

[vapid jay]

world has changed, people's sense of humor went in huge loss

So that was a joke?

who will ask for restaurant waiter roadmap in a coding server

Who laughs at his own message?

[vapid jay]

are you asking me this?

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[fallow summit]

you guys are weird

i feel at home lol

[vapid jay]

Hmm suspicious, your account was created when you joined this server

Are you an alt?

[fallow summit]

but it's old af

[vapid jay]

If your account is old then what‘s mine 😂

[gritty rivet]

We have channels like #ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval if you want to chat off-topic

[fallow summit]

its my personal account, but yeahh i was searching for a place to replace freenode IRC python channel

whats your guys opinion on live codding challenges ?

[vapid jay]

anyways, a software engineer should get some part time working experience before applying for a full time job.

[vapid jay]

What does this have to do with the previous convo

I already said that I won‘t work full time

[fallow summit]

when i was young just a github full of mini-projects, should at least get you a good job interview

[vapid jay]

this chat is for career discussion, and we are free to open a new discussion anytime. and you guys were going off topic. and i didn't indirectly mean anyone.

[vapid jay]

Aight

[cerulean spade]

what to do is very important to be a good developer, what subjects should you master?

[vapid jay]

To be a problem solver actually, if you think about mastering coding concepts then different companies use different technologies for their applications. But one thing which is common everywhere is, problem solving. If you want to be a programmer then you have to be expert in solving problems. This is like solving bugs or errors, implementing a new feature etc. So whenever you get an error, instead of asking it try to figure out the solution through Google. Search for the problem, read the documentation and figure out your problem. And one thing more important is, git. I recommend every programmer to learn git and GitHub.

[cerulean spade]

cool, but in relations the fundamentals, what study?

whats is the base for begginer?

[quasi glacier]

Cs50 by Harvard free in YouTube should be good for starting out

[buoyant seal]

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/darklab8/darklab_backend_roadmap/master/swe_backend.drawio.svg
Green boxed skills, i even mention resources to learn it

Data structures and Algorithms -> Then OOP -> Then learning all fundamentals from book Code Complete by McConnel regarding SOLID/Fighitng complexity in code architecture/how debugging/refactoring testing -> Then learning Unit testing to deeper level with its best principles in book Unit testing best principles by Khorkov -> then Design Patterns Head First -> Then TDD By Kent Beck -> Then Clean Architecture by Robert Martin -> Then continuing learning different architecture patterns (DDD included, plus i like Porto for back, oh and event driven programming is for everyone)
Learning version controlling with Git, interactive tutorial + book to learn it I linked (Git Pro), plus learning its 6 best principles to usage (link in map is provided)
Besides that learning it is important learning SDLC (System Design by Alan Dennis teaches it), it opens learning each step of SDLC to more advanced level later) (later learning stuff like Software Requirements book by microsoft is important must have too)
Plus learning SQL is usually generic stuff learned by all developers

• Learning encryption stuff(usually university subject) and different ways to implement authentification system is generic knowledge too (and kind of learning security stuff..)
• I don't mention language specific stuff, but with python u need to learn stuff life difference between multiprocessing, multithreading and asyncronous(concurrency) stuff, or learning best practices and things specific to your language how to write cleaner code, different tooling to have more efficient better dev env
• learning different ecosystem of libraries common to your job roles in your language

(P.S. Code Complete books at its end kind of also provides list of books developers must learn for Junior/Middle/Senior ranks xD, Refactoring book by Martin Fowler is one of them too)

Books, books for everyone!

hehe, may be it is time already building roadmap (purely for generic software development) as a code in mermaid.js. I'll do it eventually

[cerulean spade]

thanks so much, will help me so much this roadmap

and thanks for help with your knowledge

https://www.fullstackpython.com/ this website

will help me so much, thanks of heart

[buoyant seal]

u a welcome. feel free to upvote(star) at github xD https://github.com/darklab8/darklab_backend_roadmap/blob/master/swe_backend.drawio.svg

[cerulean spade]

i already did this, and follow too

do you know any sites that is good content? about programming, hacking,ia in general? like that?

make a repository of study materials, websites would be very useful, and will help much people

[buoyant seal]

books are my source. not really often encountered useful web sites, besides like this one https://refactoring.guru/refactoring
+interactive tutorials are nice to encounter (for git there is at least, and flexboxes and css grid for example)

[vapid jay]

Yup

[cerulean spade]

understood

i will study for your books

now i am studying for youtube

[cerulean spade]

friend, other thing that I want to ask you, in relation the saas, what is most difficult? Build one product or sales?

[buoyant seal]

if u a IT, then selling
if you are sales, then IT xD
a person can't be master in everything especially in short times.

[spark cobalt]

[hardy heath]

Any good resource for python from where I can prepare for my python interview which is in less then 2 week?

[cerulean spade]

i can create a app using api of open source and sell?

[peak halo]

you would have to check the license of the open source software that you're using.

a lot of open-source software licenses say things like "you can use this however you want for free, but you can't hold us responsible for anything bad that might happen as a result"

[cerulean spade]

some sort of runtime error or something?

[foggy coral]

heyy i am sstuck at a python DSA problem can anyone help??

[peak halo]

try #algos-and-data-structs

[peak halo]

literally any problem, including your computer bursting into flames.

[cerulean spade]

scared

[smoky quest]

Scared of?

[cerulean spade]

because my i think in create apps with connection with opensource

[smoky quest]

How would that be a problem?

Also since it's unrelated to #career-advice , I am happy to continue it on an off topic channel

[cerulean spade]

ok, sorry

[cloud spindle]

New to programing and starting with python. I would like to find a career. I am thinking I will need to choose a part of this to focus on. What should look out for?

[smoky quest]

What's your current situation?
The main path with the least amount of resistance and most opportunities will be a college degree in CS

[cloud spindle]

yeah im not there

family has a lot going on and not enough money or time to go to classes. im trying to be self taught.

[smoky quest]

You may want to look for grants, community colleges or student loans.
The entry level market is pretty crowded and a self taught career won't lead to the same career than someone with a degree.

But if you still choose to do so, you can look at https://roadmap.sh/ for a list of skills depending on the role. Frontend is the most common entry point for self taught people as it's somewhat easier

[mortal wedge]

We use open source software and their license is “don’t mention you use us” lol

[vapid jay]

I want to get in to computer vision, specifiaclly boston dynamics, tesla car, or maybe metaverse, so is python fast enough to handle real life situation??

Bc idk what language they use to make those technology, was it python or c++ or something else?

[peak halo]

when models need to be deployed on a device, the whole pipeline for creating that model is often in Python. and then there are ways of using those models with not-Python.

[vapid jay]

I wonder what language they use in tesla or boston dynamics

[smoky quest]

A common way to figure that out is to look at their job ads on their career pages

[vapid jay]

Python

[delicate bane]

onnx/torchscript/etc.

[steep mirage]

How and where do students get internships if they go to school in small college towns away from any big cities?

[summer roost]

local companies, or big cities that they temporarily relocate to, or occasionally companies that allow them to work remotely.

[steep mirage]

Interesting

[nocturne maple]

I am from Surat but I am still doing a work from home internship, you can find internships on internshala one of the best platfroms.

[steep mirage]

Cool thanks

Also, I know this kind of varies, but roughly how long does it take to get a decent entry level job after college?

[steep mirage]

Right, but there are also new grads everywhere

And yeah im in the us

[knotty gale]

does anyone know how much time it takes to get job ready in python?

[elder forge]

Typically as many years as it takes you to do a degree in university, as that is the normal way to go about it.

[spark cobalt]

For a lot, right away. As people start applying way before they graduate.

[elder edge]

So basically i have a choice between two faculties, Electrical Engineering and Mathematical. Electrical Engineering faculty has a degree for Computer Engineering / Computer Science (Its like a combination of both?). And there is the mathematical faculty with its CS degree. Thing is the Mathematical Faculty is like very very hard, the amount of math they do on their CS degree is insane, mathematical analysis, topology, differential equations, in depth linear algebra, number theory,....
There is plenty of math on EEs Computer engineering/CS degree too but nowhere near, but then you have principles of electrical engineering which is a difficult subject in itself. So i am not sure what my choice should be...
Currently i have an interest in Machine Learning, i find its field and what it is trying to achieve interesting.

[gritty rivet]

Sounds like the answer here is entirely for you to decide. Heavy math skills are useful. If you're overly intimidated or just uninterested, then don't go that route.

Is your question whether all those math concepts you list essential to master if you want to go into ML as a field? That I don't know personally. But if that's the case, it sounds like maybe ML is not for you? Or is it just that you haven't yet tried to learn those things and they sound scary?

I don't know about other countries but here in the US, it generally isn't a huge deal to leave a more challenging program and switch to a less challenging one if it doesn't work out

[elder edge]

I definitely did not try to get into any of those more advanced math topics myself so there is some fear of unknown there. Thing is i heard stories of people finishing the mathematical faculty and not using most of the math that they spent so much sweat and time for...

[white relic]

differential equations and linear algebra will probably be part of your EE program, and if they're not, they should be

[elder edge]

They are, i checked, you can take statistics and probability in second year as a subject if you want to

[hearty island]

i should keep track of the internships i applied to

[elder edge]

There is also discrete mathematics in second year, after that from third onward its basically over math wise

[white relic]

Thing is i heard stories of people finishing the mathematical faculty and not using most of the math that they spent so much sweat and time for
If you're planning to go into an industry after the degree, you will never use most of what you learn while getting it. An education is for showing you what there is to learn, more than for teaching you what you need to know for a specific job.

On the other end of things, my engineering program didn't require linear algebra, for reasons I don't really understand, and I ended up teaching myself at work 6 years later when it became relevant.

[elder edge]

I heard that ML is pretty intensive math wise due to it being an branch of Data Science

[white relic]

I find it curious you think of the CpE program as the "easy" one and the CS as the "hard" one. I feel like the application of mathematics to the real world is harder than the mathematical principles themselves. But maybe I'm biased.

[elder edge]

I downloaded some pdf books on introduction to ML and im going through them to maybe get some idea of what it is all like

[gritty rivet]

i heard stories of people finishing the mathematical faculty and not using most of the math

And what are those people doing now? Look for alumni of both programs on LinkedIn, see if they're doing interesting work, and ask them what they think

[elder edge]

I had people voice same thoughts so you are definitely not biased. Both are very difficult degrees and both faculties are respected....

[white relic]

I thought I was going to do CS but I switched to computer engineering because the course schedule looked more interesting. (no regrets)

[elder edge]

What does your current job look like? What do you do, with a CE degree

[white relic]

well, I'm currently a researcher in superconducting electronics, but that's not typical for someone without a PhD

[elder edge]

Like their applications in computing?

[white relic]

yes, basically

[elder edge]

What else would you be most likely doing then with bachelors / maybe masters? You see that's another thing i thought about, if i were to get a degree in CE then i could maybe get a masters in CS..

[white relic]

I started in a big company designing ASICs. For a while a few years ago I was a software engineer developing embedded C++. Kind of stumbled into superconductivity research and managed to capitalize on being in the right place at the right time. But that's partly what a CpE degree can give you: flexibility. I could have turned into heavy RF stuff or "pure" software development with about the same amount of effort.

Turns out I like coding better when it's only part (albeit a large part) of my job.

On the other hand I know very little about machine learning or web stuff, which would be a liability if I had any interest in those things.

[elder edge]

And what was the pay like across your career? Would you say good? Do you think that you got a return on your invested time

[white relic]

I have been paid well for someone of my education, but I live in the US where salaries are high, and I don't live in the really expensive parts

in the US, it used to be that all degrees paid off. Didn't matter what the degree was as long as you had one. I don't think that's true anymore, wasn't true even when I graduated, but it's still pretty much true in STEM fields.

[elder edge]

I definitely do not plan on staying in Europe, had Canada on my mind

[white relic]

You can definitely get a master's in CS with a EE undergrad. The opposite would be harder.

[jagged forge]

What's wrong with EU? You can pretty much study easily in any EU country.

[elder edge]

I plan to finish my studies here in Europe and then to move for better job opportunities, higher salaries

[cloud spindle]

That road map I think will be the most helpful things. I did not realize how much I still had to learn. Marking these out one at a time is going to be fun.

Yeah I have too little understanding right now. When I have a deeper understanding I will return with the question.

[last karma]

Hello everyone ! I know it's quite awkward but i'm looking for a job, i'm 17 yo and i would like to make some money to help my parents. If someone can tell me more about that, it will be a pleasure, thank you ! 😄

[cloud spindle]

Might be a bit hard at your age. You will definitely find something but be careful. I am not able to help you as I have just started learning.

[last karma]

yeah i know, but it doesn't have to be in an informatic domain, it can be everything ^^ but thanks for your reply 🙂

I can for example translates sentences, i'm French, but as you can see i can also speak english

You know, little jobs like that, they don't require any skill, even if the pay isn't that much, that's still it

[cloud spindle]

I think the best way you can help them is finishing an education. I was in that position in the past ad I had I studied then I might have been a le to better help them.

I do not know about France. I'm in US.

Sometimes we are better able to help by doing things that will take some time. My advice would be to talk your parents tell them you want to help and how they think you should..

[last karma]

As you said, i'm continuing school, i'm in my last year of High school, i already tried to talk with them about this, but they don't want me to gain money, because they want me to focus on school, even if this is correct, i still have some free time and i feel like i'm loosing it

[elder edge]

You should get a job at some local Cafe or something

Being a translator usually requires a certificate

[last karma]

I checked all around but nobody wants, because i'm not an adult, i think e-jobs are perfect for my situation.
For translating, i didn't know i would need a certificate so that plan is out

[graceful mason]

Honestly your best bet is to look for part time or weekend jobs like hospitality

[plush galleon]

I translated for a training company and while it didn't pay really well it was quite fun and steady

[last karma]

Oh ! Do you have any links with this company ? and by complete hazard do you know any company that can allow me to do that for them ?

[delicate bane]

i think your age will be a problem for most places

[plush galleon]

It went bankrupt a couple of years ago

[delicate bane]

but i really cant speak to that since im based in the states

[plush galleon]

I would look on sites like Proz if I were you

[last karma]

i can still prove them that i'm good at this, they might be convinced

My second language is French, so it's a barely important language

[plush galleon]

I'm based in Europe and you'll struggle if you're underage

[sharp mauve]

can someone please help me understand my homework? I am working with function

[plush galleon]

I don't think you really meant "barely" though

!rules

[inner wren]

Rules

The rules and guidelines that apply to this community can be found on our rules page. We expect all members of the community to have read and understood these.

[last karma]

Ah yeah... that's a whole different story.

[last karma]

i meant it, because the most important languages are Spanish, Chinese and English. French isn't that popular, it's not spoken by everyone

[plush galleon]

I think you're wrong but let's assume you're right. Nobody would want a translator who only speaks English and a "barely important language".

[last karma]

Ah yeah, that's right. But I believe there are offers for everything

i'm creating a Proz acc

[plush galleon]

Then try to look for a job as Burgundian-English translator

[last karma]

I'm sure i can 😂

[plush galleon]

You won't find a job like that because that language died out in the 6th century.

[floral belfry]

do the 1's and 0's understand multiple languages or is it multiple languages divided into a single language that the computer understands? To the computer is print() and console.log() the same thing or if not then where and when do they come together becuase a 1 is a one and 0 is a zero? I know for sure that at the logic gate level its positive vs negative or the other way around including negative vs negative and positive vs positive? Is there anoyone who can
explain it, please!

[plush galleon]

I think you're in the wrong channel

[floral belfry]

no im not in the wrong channel> does my question make cno sense?

[true harness]

how does this relate to python and the world of work?

[plush galleon]

Yes, you are.

[floral belfry]

because im asking about computer languages in general?

[plush galleon]

<@&831776746206265384>

[floral belfry]

rather just say you dont know!

[true harness]

this channel is for discussing careers. maybe use an off topic channel?

[mortal mortar]

Hi, I'm new here. Any career advice for python programming? I want to look into Datascience and Machine Learning

[plush galleon]

I'm not answering any question in the wrong channel and you won't give me with your cheap strategy

Did you already learned the basics of Python?

[buoyant seal]

#microcontrollers your question can be asked in this channel i think
https://github.com/mhxion/awesome-discord-communities#linux or u can find more specialized community for your question

[plush galleon]

!resources might help you

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[mortal mortar]

yes. down to OOP

[floral belfry]

ok fine ill take it somewhere else then! you know it is okay for you to not always know the answers

[mortal mortar]

Thanks

[idle sleet]

Please,
help me find my ideal career 🙏

I tried: ∙ Game Development - 'loved making your own project, creativity, commitment
∙ E-sport - loved the ranking, getting better and better, the competitiveness
∙ Programming - loved the learning, using logical thinking and problem solving
∙ Creating animated movie - loved creating and sharing my own sci-fi stories, building characters psychology, sharing feelings

Requirements: ▸ High salary - I would like not to be limited by financial problems
▸ Useful - I want my job to be useful, meaningful, to help people, to improve the world not to worsen
▸ Entertainment - I want my job to be my hobby. Meaning, if I wouldn't get paid for it, I would still do it.

Thanks to anyone trying to help me, really appreciate it ♥️

[plush galleon]

How old are you, kid? My 10-years old niece doesn't try this strategy anymore

I guess it all depends on what you mean by "high salary" and I'm pretty sure you won't get anywhere if you hate what you do so you'll have to find the field you're most interested in

[lucid vapor]

@floral belfry There's no need to respond to people like that. This is the wrong channel. Please reread our #rules and #code-of-conduct.

@plush galleon The same applies to you. That was unnecessarily rude.

[last karma]

i know, that's even a civ in Age Of Empire II, but for historians maybe 😂 😂

[plush galleon]

@lucid vapor I explained it a few times before pointing out that their attitude was childish and they did it one more time so I don't see where I was unnecessarily rude

It's not even a civilization in this game because we don't know enough about this civilization to include it in a game but the off-topic already lasted too long

[lucid vapor]

Calling someone childish is unnecessary. I see you pinged the moderators. Once you do that, all you need to do is step out of the conversation and leave it alone. You can also always DM @severe widget will any moderation concerns. If you have any other questions, please DM that bot.

[last karma]

They are, Burgundians, in AOE II, you know ? the rts game

oh you meant IRL

[plush galleon]

You won't find the perfect job because you can't find any job you would like and the requirements may be too high for you atm

[idle sleet]

what?

I didn't ever say that I am not interested in anything

[last karma]

Yes ! i don't have really much skills, i can't do Python / Java because i suck at this, i'm still learning it at school, and i don't know what am i able to do.

oh bruh, you didn't talk to me x)

[plush galleon]

I played AoE II 22 years ago and I never tried the remakes but you're right even though my point is still valid since the language died and their culture is way less known than that of all the other civilizations in this game

You wrote "high salary" as the first requirement without explaining what you mean by that

[idle sleet]

I explained xd

[plush galleon]

No, you didn't

[idle sleet]

read it again then

[plush galleon]

"xd" is really unprofessional

[last karma]

yeah, i think we got out of the subject 😂

I don't know what to do, except translating which was my only idea of "working". If you got some other example of "jobs" that don't require much skills, even if they don't pay much i'll be glad to know them ! 😄
i still apreciate that you tried to help me @plush galleon 😄 thanks a lot

[plush galleon]

Given that you're condescending and not answering any question, I guess you already know the answers to yours so good luck

[true harness]

it's a discord server

[idle sleet]

How is it unprofessional? It's expressing my feelings without eye-to-eye contact

[plush galleon]

How old are you? You could find small projects for your neighborhood

[last karma]

i'm actually early 17Yo, got them in october

[plush galleon]

Yes and they are seeking advice while being condescending which isn't the best way to do it imho

[plush galleon]

Have you learned the basics of Java? You could offer to write a basic application for a local club

[last karma]

Mhhhh i think i can ask to by neighbors if i can keep their dogs / cats while they're occupied. I don't think i can keep kids / babies because you know, parents won't give that much confidence to a 17 Yo man who got no experience

[muted abyss]

hello, would anyone be willing to give me some tips about starting to freelance using python? i have basic knowledge and am looking to improve further by expanding my knowledge and learning something more specific that would be useful in starting on upwork

[plush galleon]

I thought you were looking for programming experience, that's why I suggested you the mobile field
I don't think you should try to get a certificate in childcare because it requires too much time for someone who won't really use it professionally and will learn it on the field with his (you wrote you were a man) own childs

[plush galleon]

Tip: I guess it all depends on what you mean by "high salary"

[plush galleon]

Have you tried indeed? I think you would need a first concrete project to showcase your knowledge though

[true harness]

i thought indeed was mainly for real companies

[last karma]

Oh yeah, i still can learn the Python, and that would help me a lot for my final exams. To a commercial level, what do you think i should learn in Python ?

[muted abyss]

no, what is indeed about?

[last karma]

And what can i do ? i mean, i will write programs for companies ? Teaching to novices ?

[plush galleon]

I never tried this website but a friend of mine find her first freelancing job there but that wasn't in software development

Actually, she finds all her missions on Indeed

[plush galleon]

I can't know it for you

That's why I suggested a mobile application for a local club

[plush galleon]

Have a look at their website

[muted abyss]

i just did, its a job website

i figured it would be easier to find entry level freelancing jobs rather than a full time job, what do you think?

[balmy spade]

That will greatly depend on your definition of easy. Freelancing is not what I would call easy work. It requires a huge amount of effort to do it for anything more than a spot of extra spending money.

Fiver and sites like it would be where you look for freelance work.

[plush galleon]

As I said, I think you would need a first real-world experience and I don't think it will be easy if you're willing to use it to learn the basics

[muted abyss]

no no, sorry youve missunderstood. i know the basics, im currently looking into what skill is most in demand so i can search advanced knowledge in it

[plush galleon]

I wouldn't use Fiverr and the likes because of their politics (conversion fee) but it could be a solution if you're only looking for one-time contracts without possibility to convert it

[muted abyss]

i am open to suggestions if you dont think freelancing is the best choice right now

[plush galleon]

If you want a pearl of wisdom, never say the other one misunderstood

You wrote you had basic knowledge of Python and wanted a tip about starting as freelance so I supposed it meant you had basic knowledge of Python and wanted a tip about starting as freelance

https://tenor.com/view/avatar-the-last-airbender-aang-talking-gif-17398626

You probably have a relative looking for a basic program to ease their day-to-day life

[balmy spade]

What projects have you built? What do you enjoy to work on? These are things that can help guild you.

[muted abyss]

you said "to use it to learn the basics"

[muted abyss]

basic projects like building a calculator, tinder autoswiping bot, instagram autofollower, ive made a mock blog with flask and some other basic stuff, the thing i enjoyed most would be webscraping and automating with bs4/selenium and working with csv data with pandas

[balmy spade]

I would push further into the automation and explore API communications, mid-ware automation, and the like. Two of those projects (insta and tinder) are strictly against the ToS of the sites so you won't find an easy market for them (nor will we discuss them here).

The ability to work with data, automate moving, parsing, and relaying that data is a very valuable skill set to have. It also strengthens your soft-skills of problem solving, communication, and project planning.

[muted abyss]

thank you for the answer, ill look into data analysis and automation further

[plush galleon]

It was only a figure of speech to remind that a knowledge of the language (and programming in general) is required before being able to earn a living by programming

[muted abyss]

yeah of course, i am asking what that knowledge should consist of

i got a pretty good answer from @balmy spade about it, that was enough for me thanks again buddy

[steep mirage]

Right, I'm just a little worried about not finding a job for months or years after college, especially if I don't get an internship

[plush galleon]

I'd look at an offer that interests me and fill the knowledge gap

I tried to answer you but you wouldn't answer me so I couldn't be more precise but OK

[muted abyss]

that sounds good, thanks

[plush galleon]

Don't you have to get an internship in order to graduate?

[white relic]

not usually in STEM fields in the USA

[steep mirage]

Do you?

[white relic]

Required internships are more common in in medicine and social sciences.
Things you would need govt certification to actually work in.

[steep mirage]

Ah

[delicate bane]

ive heard of some EU uni requiring internships to graduate but it depends on the program

oh wait there are a couple programs here in the states that require internships to graduate but it really is dependent on the program and it is not as frequently seen

[idle sleet]

Hi 👋
please, help me find my "ideal" career 🙏

I tried: ∙ Game Development - 'loved making my own project (creativity, commitment)
∙ E-sport - loved the ranking, getting better and better (the competitiveness)
∙ Programming - loved the learning, using logical thinking and problem solving
∙ Creating animated movie - loved creating and sharing my own sci-fi stories, building characters psychology, sharing feelings

I prefer: ▸ High salary - I would like not to be limited by financial problems
▸ Useful - I want my job to be useful, meaningful, to help people, to improve the world not to worsen
▸ Entertainment - I want my job to be my hobby. Meaning, if I wouldn't get paid for it, I would still do it.

Thanks to anyone trying to help me, really appreciate it ♥️

[smoky quest]

what are the problems with the ones you tried?
Of the one you listed, programming would fit the best, but that's from my opinion

[idle sleet]

What do you mean by programming? Maybe I see it wrong.

[smoky quest]

developing software

[idle sleet]

I've always seen software development as kinda boring. But I don't know, I didn't actually try it...

[smoky quest]

I am basing the answer based on what you wrote :p

[idle sleet]

I felt about it like you work for a company and they want you to code something specific. So you can't add your own value to it, you can't make something of your own. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong.

[elder forge]

to what extent did you do these? It is quite different to try game dev for a couple of months as a hobby, and actually getting paid for it.

[smoky quest]

Same as @ trygvrad. I don't follow your definition of tried

[idle sleet]

I've only tried it as a hobby.

[smoky quest]

companies hire software engineers to solve problems through programming. The more experience you are, the less well defined the solution and problem will be

[summer roost]

at the senior level, the problems you're setting out to solve are usually quite poorly defined, and you need to have conversations with stakeholders to figure out what it is that they actually want built, and then figure out how to make something that meets their end goals, over a span of weeks or months.

[elder forge]

I suggest you look at job openings in your area. You can start with a wide search, look at the pay and the requirements, and if you match those.
From the jobs that where you match the requirements, see how well they fit your preferences listed above.

[summer roost]

software developers, in my experience, rarely complain that they don't feel like they're adding their own value to the things they build.

[idle sleet]

Ok. Thanks a lot for your answers!

By the way, is there any other job besides software development, that I should give look at?

[smoky quest]

It's infinite.
It will be difficult to come up with a list for you on the spot.

[idle sleet]

Sorry for being so annoying. I'm going through some kind of depression. I've fallen into some existential crisis and life meaninglessness. I see good way to get out of this by setting some goal, finding a dream, a hobby to not just procrastinate and waste time overthinking our existence. Maybe if I find something like that, something I can stick to and work hard for, enjoy my time with the process and achieve goals, I could cure my twisted mindset.

[smoky quest]

no problem.
It's a difficult answer because only you can answer what you find enjoyable and there are so many type of jobs available.

Asking questions about them is a good step though!
It will be easier for people here to help answer questions and doubt about CS related career (ex: what do developers do? What's the best path to get into it? etc.), but if will be more difficult with more open ended questions.

[jagged forge]

That's okay tho. It's good to know the underlying problem too. Just talk it out. I even consulted a college psychologist once. I once had a fear of failing. In the group sessions it was nice to know that many others felt the same thing.

[idle sleet]

I've thought about contacting our high school psychologist. Because I feel like nobody can understand me and maybe the psychologist could. It's hard for me to explain what's happening in my mind. And the worst feeling on this is that no-one can understand me, no-one can see into my mind and tell me what to do...

I've been trying to describe my problem multiple times but I still don't think I ever explained it properly

[jagged forge]

I would advise to do so. Psychologist are like doctors, they must keep their patient's secrets. I also felt a bit better afterwards.

[idle sleet]

I don't know it's somewhat fascinating if I take it from the other viewpoint. Something really strange, maybe interesting but terrifying at the same time

The worst thing is that I feel like it's happening in endless cycles. I feel great one week and the other two I'm completely drained and feel like nothing makes sense.

Nevermind, sorry for this 😄 I'll go sleep now.

[plush galleon]

Yes. It's worth 1/6 of my bachelor's degree and where I live every student has to take an unpaid internship.

[plush galleon]

I already tried to answer their question but they didn't seem to like the answers I provided.

If you're somehow feeling depressed depressed while still in high school, contact a psychologist ASAP.
This state might go away on its own, but do you want to take a chance?

If you want to get into IT, maybe you could give sysadmin a try.

[vapid jay]

@idle sleet maybe take a look at https://roadmap.sh too

If it’s programming you enjoy, it sets out a few of the most common paths

[peak halo]

What about them?

Please don't shitpost in this channel

[vapid jay]

please don't shitpost fullstop tbh when you got 'rocket league is good' in your bio and you're actively playing roblox...

[summer roost]

!mute 986842193106984970 continued to make off-topic shitposts in #career-advice after being warned not to

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @vapid jay until <t:1669003557:f> (1 hour).

[dreamy shadow]

The instructions I got for this take-home interview is super vague.

Lmao, just as I typed this out. Finally understood another task they are looking for.

[delicate bane]

just generic EDA?

[dreamy shadow]

Yes and no.

[delicate bane]

kinda lazy from their part if so

[dreamy shadow]

It's more of data cleaning(?)

[delicate bane]

oof

[dreamy shadow]

I honestly don't understand what the ask here is. It's vague af to begin with. For example, dates:

Are we talking about data that has a standard format that can be parsed?
Or assorted format? (What about possible European formatting?)
Missing values, just NaT is fine? Or they need to generate duration and needs to be imputed?

Report here, like a generic: Col 1 % missing, Col1 % invalid?

I just realized the dates out of order means checking the "start date" and "end date" col if they make sense.

[delicate bane]

i think the report would go to a stakeholder so EDA would the emphasis and during the process maybe walk them through the notebook to go through data cleaning?

[dreamy shadow]

At least, That's my INTERPRETATION. CUZE WHO KNOWS?

[delicate bane]

i would assume non-technical audience. and focus on the EDA and visualizations. you can walk through data cleaning process, but i wouldnt spend too much time talking about it

[dreamy shadow]

Report to who? Business sided is going to be sent basically an excel or their brain explodes. Technical side? Sure, I can export a HTML notebook then.

[delicate bane]

excel, the dark matter of the data world. how true that is

[dreamy shadow]

So, there's a "senior data scientist" and a "Director". The Director in this case, doesn't know the first thing about python. The Senior data scientist looked like they don't know what to ask.

Other than these two as the main audience? I don't know. Whole reason I'm even going through this circus is to get a competing offer for another interview.

The link they provided, the data there already is cleaned.

I think, what I'm going to do is just send a HTML notebook & ppt at a high level

[delicate bane]

sounds like a plan. would focus on the latter probably more but up to you. and lol, yeah that audience is...something else. good luck with the offer — smart idea tbh

there is apparently a non-trivial amount of the world's businesses running on excel so...even as a dev, its one of those necessary evils that you learn to work with

[dreamy shadow]

Insurance literally runs on excel.

"Oh, you created a model? What does it look like?"
"Here, let me send you the excel workbook"
"Workbook?"

[dreamy shadow]

Also, I've wasted enough hours on this.

[delicate bane]

oh nooooo

[smoky quest]

Sounds like a great plan!
You may also be interested in streamlit

[dreamy shadow]

I can't even get my model to work well enough to bother with streamlit

[harsh river]

it really depends on your college

[left kernel]

excuse me guys, can u recommend me a freelance website that pays usd? thank you

[smoky quest]

Hi! It's not a channel for shitposting

[silk plinth]

It's very hard to get a job when confused about career

[soft urchin]

Hi guys! Is this appropriate channel to ask about learning in general?

[near ocean]

No, it'd be better in the offtopic channels

[warm venture]

Hi guys.

Please do you know what I need to know to do to land a jog as a Django Developer

[soft urchin]

Kk ty@near ocean

[warm venture]

Please do you know what I need to know or do to land a job as a Django Developer?. I really need a response

[near ocean]

Learn django, build some projects, go to university and graduate

[warm venture]

Please, do I really need to graduate from university before I land a job as a Django Developer?

[near ocean]

It would be ideal, do you not want to go to university?

[silk plinth]

First learn python language very well and then practice data structure and algorithms on hackerearth and hackerank website. It will take a month to do this but first learn a language and its DSA . Then head for the django. Make some projects and add it to resume

Your 3 months of dedication will land you in a python developer position in any product based company

[warm venture]

Thanks a lot. I really appreciate

[white relic]

according to the people in here that have done the self-taught route, that is quite unrealistic

[silk plinth]

For any assistance tell me i will provide you

I'm also a self learner.

[warm venture]

I've actually created a blog with django and i'm currently working on an ecommerce site. Here is the link to the code for the blog project on github. https://github.com/bukeme/django-blog-project

[white relic]

that's great, but don't confuse your good luck for the general ability to get a job at "any product based company" with only three months of self-guided projects

[warm venture]

Please, are you a django developer?

[dense mesa]

This doesn't sound feasible from a UK perspective, nor generally in the West from what I've seen

[white relic]

three months is aggressive just to find a job for someone with a degree

[silk plinth]

What I'm talking about is perfection in any programming language and Dsa because I have seen people with great experience but getting rejected by big MNC'S . Example: Google interview will never start about what you know and what you can do . If you are good at DSA THEN THEY FURTHER PROCEED WITH YOU.

[white relic]

assuming you get an interview in the first place

[near ocean]

3 months for "perfection"?

[balmy mural]

Without a degree you need significant projects to stand out and even get to the interview

[silk plinth]

3 months for only DSA not for whole python dilemma

[near ocean]

So one more month for the python thing like you said

[warm venture]

Please, what's your advice to a self taught programmer(me) on what to learn and do to land a job as a django developer

[near ocean]

Go to university

[white relic]

Where are you located?

[silk plinth]

India🙃🙂

[warm venture]

Nigeria

[white relic]

Then I have no special advice for you other than going to university. Especially if, like many people, you're thinking of moving to EU or US and/or getting a job with a company based here, you'll need a degree.

If you're just looking at the local job market, local job postings can probably tell you more than we can.

[warm venture]

What about remote jobs, I really prefer that

[white relic]

I don't have one, but I understand the competition for such jobs is greater if anything than for in person ones, and they tend to hire more experienced on average anyway

[silk plinth]

For remote jobs you will need to clear the company criteria.and most of them put degree criteria to get selected

[balmy mural]

Nigeria is very degree focussed afaik. It's similar to EU/US where employers will throw out most applications without a degree. There are a lot of CS grads in Nigeria, it's one of the most sought after degrees. I'm not from Nigeria though, but one of my professors were, so take this with a grain of salt

[white relic]

hiring inexperienced people for remote work is a big risk tbh

[balmy mural]

Remote jobs still normally want you in the country that the company is in. They don't want to deal with labour laws from multiple countries, they might need you to still occasionally come into the office, and it remote jobs barely exists for junior and entry level positions. So you'd still be looking at remote jobs in Nigeria

[silk plinth]

For now no one knows the correct process of getting selected in companies if you do not have a degree. But you can try getting small job for python developer which will pay you less. But after getting a year of experience you can switch to other companies. Once you have any experience with a hand on a project then your window of opportunity will increase

[dense mesa]

It's not that simple in a lot of countries

To get these small jobs you typically need to have a good level of understanding, they're not taking people without experience and paying them to learn how to program

[silk plinth]

You can go straight for coding competitions and hackathons Usually they do not have any criteria and if you perform well. You can get a chance to screen in interview

[dense mesa]

This sounds like it's quite specific to India

[warm venture]

Thanks a lot guys for your advice
I'm actually a student studying electrical/electronics engineering.
I really prefer to collaborate with someone remotely(even if it's for free)

[silk plinth]

You will need a whole year understanding this curriculum but hackathons and competitions are like drugs . Just try to participate you will gradually understand how to code how to solve real life problems.

[silk plinth]

Right. 1.5 billion people and 50 million jobless are hear among graduates

[hybrid sparrow]

I'm interested in a career in Python , but do not have a college education.
What are the most common entry-level jobs that require Python?

[silk plinth]

But i can say this in india there are too many job opportunities but first improving skill is necessary.

[warm venture]

Please, how do I get started?

[silk plinth]

Junior python developer, junior django developer,

[hybrid sparrow]

Thank you!

[balmy mural]

Which would both generally require a degree. Is there a reason you don't want to go through a college education?

[silk plinth]

I'm putting some links please check it out

[hybrid sparrow]

I can't afford it. Time or money.

[white relic]

Doing enough projects that you have a substantial portfolio, enough that companies may consider hiring you without a degree, and then finding the companies that will give you an interview without a degree, will probably take at least a couple years. Can you afford that?

Not trying to be unkind, but that is the reality for many people in your situation.

[silk plinth]

https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/python-programming-language/?ref=shm

https://www.hackerearth.com/challenges/

[white relic]

if you're going to post a bunch of links, please at least disable embeds

[hybrid sparrow]

I appreciate your frankness. A degree is a prerequisite. Perhaps I will see if there are alternatives to a degree.

[silk plinth]

https://www.hackerrank.com/dashboard

[warm venture]

Thanks a lot, I really appreciate

[balmy mural]

None of these will get you job ready. Things like hackerearth and hackerrank will just help prep you for those types of interview questions.

[white relic]

I'll ask the same thing I asked ukemeB: where are you located?

[hybrid sparrow]

Ireland

[silk plinth]

guys you should also practice touch typing

practice will land you somewhere

[near ocean]

Are you a working professional?@silk plinth

[hybrid sparrow]

Thank you

[silk plinth]

yep

[warm venture]

Really happy people like you are here.
Are you a Django Developer?

[silk plinth]

current project is on big data

[white relic]

Don't know much about the job market there, but if I can interpolate from the EU in general, it'll be pretty hard to get a job without a degree.

(I do not live or work in the EU either... just have connections... so grain of salt that)

[hybrid sparrow]

It seems increasingly likely that I'll have to start my own company.

[silk plinth]

remember if are getting selected as developer does not mean you will work whole life as Django . you will have all the window open as your company proceed in project development

[warm venture]

Okay, Thanks

[silk plinth]

i can say this . if you know nothing about python. go for java developer it will provide more job opportunity . or become a web developer with HTML,CSS,REACT.js

[hybrid sparrow]

It seems unfair to me ( and look , I know that life isn't fair ) that a poor programmer with only marginal interest in the subject, but has a degree, will always get first choice over an exceptional (and not saying that's me) programmer with no degree.

Such is life. An interviewer needs something to judge by I suppose. Thank you everyone for your help!

[silk plinth]

for now world IT industry is more shifted towards Web development

everything going live web

[balmy mural]

This completely depends on where you live. Look at entry level roles in you area, learn according to that. Don't just randomly pick up java and then later on realize that 90% of backend jobs in your country use C#

[dense mesa]

From the perspective of the interviewer, they probably have 10-100 candidates that need to be shortlisted so there's reasonable time to interview everyone.

They don't have the time to go through each person, and assess their actual capabilities to do the job well, it's just too time consuming for one single position.

Something like a degree shows that with reasonable confidence, that candidate has spent 3+ years studying something, and this has been verified by what are typically considered reputable institutions

[hybrid sparrow]

I understand the need for it.

[white relic]

Starting your own company is a major undertaking. I would consider the costs very carefully. If you need seed funding it will be hard to get that, too, without any kind of education or significant prior experience. If you have to convince people to hire you, that will be hard if you can't point to prior successes in the field. Even successful small businesses will operate at a loss for a few years before starting to turn a profit

[hybrid sparrow]

I was only joking. Merely outlining my desperation.

[white relic]

oh ok haha

you never know online

[hybrid sparrow]

That's very true

I will I think, on review of all the help offered here (thank you all ) , see if there is some sort of accepted alternative to a degree, like a city and guilds type thing.

[white relic]

Good luck, in any case.

[silk plinth]

anyone of you from INDIA

[peak halo]

Remember to always ask you actually question without asking to ask.

[silk plinth]

Ohk

[digital lodge]

hi so I have a decently big freelance order and Idk how to price it. Can someone help? DMs

[peak halo]

please give relevant details for your question in this channel. people don't want to have to interview others over DMs to get to the point that they can actually answer.

[digital lodge]

Oh sorry

but I'm a cautious giving out imp details in a public channel.

[peak halo]

that isn't fundamentally much different than giving it to anyone who asks you over DMs. But if you don't want to ask your question in the server, you may have to look elsewhere.

[digital lodge]

okay sorry

[urban sundial]

I find myself in a similar situation, friend.

[delicate bane]

tutorial hell is a phenomena experienced by many.

like others have advised, it is best to work on small projects that start off by modifying others' code, and gradually increase from there until you have a brand new project that has not existed previously in that specific combination/configuration

[urban sundial]

My head is filled with ideas. But when I try to execute it, I fail. I am still quite new to this so hopefully I will learn more. Thanks friend 🙂

[delicate bane]

no problem. it is best to start as small as possible and increase from there. you will gradually become more familiar and experienced and then hopefully your skills will get you to a place where you can use them in a job

or if you are just looking to use them for hobby programming, that works too. i only mention jobs bc of the channel topic

[urban sundial]

I have a full time job which I am more or less satisfied with. But, do I want to switch career? Absolutely! So I agree with your statement.

Ok, adding a bit to what I said

[delicate bane]

haha nice! you can look for ways to use python in your job too. for example, if you work with spreadsheets, you can start by automating some tasks and using libraries like openpyxl

[urban sundial]

The place where I work, there is a Dev team which work in sync with us. Their primary requirement is of devs who work with NodeJS/MongoDB.

[delicate bane]

mongodb has a python driver if you are looking to get familiar with that technology

[urban sundial]

There's so many things which can be automated. Some of the daily stuff with Excel feel so time consuming. So yes, I think I will take this up. A lot can be automated. I had thought about it once but forgot lol

[jagged forge]

There is VBA if you deep into Excel

[delicate bane]

i think if you can automate a lot of tedious tasks that eat up a lot of time that will be the most impactful, yes. best of luck my friend.

[urban sundial]

Thank you Rex!!

[silk plinth]

i want to improve english speaking because its important . how to boost confidence and talk without hesitation

i think of many things in my mind but while speaking i forget everything

[hearty island]

i’m about to cold call an oracle recruiter

[covert mountain]

you should like be in the discord calls and stuff and talk about codes, and build confidence and you can do ^ after that

[spark cobalt]

Don't be afraid of uncomfortability. Learn to embrace it.

[buoyant seal]

italki service helped me. They have cheap English speaking people around the world from any country at choice to make first steps in speaking with people.
Very carefully online teachers should be chosen though. Only with hundred+ reviews preferably and reading carefully their reviews.
I got few nice teachers, like Canadian stuck in Malasia for cheap price, and cool IELTS teacher from india was good also.
one time got scammed though, but one is nothing in comparison to all other received lessons

as any freelancing service, hehe, different folks are there

[silk plinth]

please feel free to add me in any call

in india we all talk in hindi language so it is tough to build confidence

[buoyant seal]

i had cool teacher from india which spoke very well in English, so not all of you speak horribly.

[silk plinth]

in north india they prefer to speak in english but where i live no one is hear try hard

[hearty island]

i called them i think the conversation went ok… it’s the senior vice president of recruiting, so i doubt they’re going to really do anything about me. he asked me to send him my resume… so maybe something good comes out of this??

[silk plinth]

lets catch up on call after 15 min

[hearty island]

and the previous recruiter i called never got back to me 😦

[rose lily]

Hi. I'm just asking this question because I want to know how much time I should spend on studying. So I am a guy who is in grave need of money, I'm dirtpoor and I am tired of asking for help, I want to be able to make my own money. I can fairly quickly grasp programming, I'm not a genius but not completely moron either. I want to know, if I dedicate myself 100 percent every single day entire day, theoretically, how much time should I spend in order to get a job that could at least pay me enough to buy food in one month?

[spark cobalt]

The issue is how you are going to convince someone to hire you over the tens of thousands of people that's been studying to be a SWE for 4+ years. Your resume will not carry the same weight as one with a college degree, and many of the times, your resume will just be filtered out through some machine.

You need income, but income as a software engineer is going to be incredulously tough which will require a lot of luck. It's a very high risk gamble, you're most likely going to fail.

You should get a job to be able to sustain living and also cut costs where you can. Talk to people working in lower income jobs and see how they're able to sustain living in your area and try to mimic their lifestyle. Then spend the rest of your day studying to be a software engineer.

The easier route though, would be college. You'll be able to pay back your student loans relatively quick as new grads can easily make 6 figures.

[hearty island]

omg
guys
holy shit
holy fucking shit
a recruiter from oracle just emailed me about a product management internship for them

uhhhhh

[mortal wedge]

Excellent! 🙂 Great work! Don't stress too much, a recruiter is just a casual conversation at the first step to get a feel if you'd be a good fit for the company and vice versa

[buoyant seal]

Big company
Quite fishy background of company and goals... But well, not a reason to complain for starting position xD
At least it has a big name

Hopefully I will never need to work with Oracle databases

[spark cobalt]

[hearty island]

so i guess i should say my base expectations are $49 an hour right?

[mortal wedge]

There's healthy debate on all sides as to how to answer salary questions

[hearty island]

yeah ik 😦, i wanna ask what's the budget... but it's an internship so idk if it's negotiable?

[mortal wedge]

But you probably want your base expectation to fall within the reasonable range for the position. If you're talking to a recruiter, that's a perfectly valid question to ask.

[hearty island]

it's a question in the email

[vapid jay]

Wtf? American internships are $49/h? 🥴

[mortal wedge]

Tbh everything is negotaible, but you may have less range to negotiate for an internship and you typically don't negotiate until they've fallen in love with you

[hearty island]

so what should i say? $40?

[mortal wedge]

yeah pretty insane, huh? Some of the big boys can afford this and oracle is a big boy

[vapid jay]

🤯

[mortal wedge]

Tbh I think 46 or 49 is fine. That number is not going to make or break their decision and probably won't impact what they give you

[hearty island]

gotcha thanks

[vapid jay]

That’s near double my salary with a decade’s experience as a civil engineer 🤣 i defo went into the wrong career

[hearty island]

bruh i wasn't in project management till a month ago 😭

[mortal wedge]

Biomedical engineer who reprioritized into software. I think I made the right move

[vapid jay]

And housing and vehicle too 🤣

[lapis wind]

God knows Oracle make enough money to 🤣

[hearty island]

my uncle also works for oracle..... maybe it runs in the family 😭

[mortal wedge]

Exactly. They make enough money that they're not going to nickel and dime an internship.

[vapid jay]

Nice man! Mind me asking how long into your career you transitioned? And what your chosen path was? I’m currently trying to transition as we speak, but i’m going the self taught route and i’m starting to wonder if i’ve left it too late at 28

No worries if that’s too personal

[mortal wedge]

Not at all. It's a little weird for me. What happened was that I worked in technical support right out of college just to make ends meet, and that seemingly disqualified me for any sort of engineering position. Out of curiosity, I tried applying to some software engineering positions and actually got some traction, technical support was at least somewhat believable as having some sort of transferrable skill to a software position. After that, I decided to fully focus on learning SWE fundamentals (I already was a hobby programmer) and wound up getting a job some months later. (Probably took me longer than expected because it was when covid first hit and everyone went on hiring freezes).

As long as you have a degree in STEM (sounds like you do) then it's absolutely not too late at 28 to transition. There's a whole field/realm of strategy related to career switching.

1. You need to have a satisfactory answer when talking to recruiters about why you're making the switch and why you'd be a good fit.
2. You need to focus your resume on transferrable skills, anything that could be transferrable. (Did you have to do some SQL queries? Do you have project management experience? Team experience? Documentation/control/industry specific knowledge? Like maybe you've been working in civil and you're going to a company that builds apps for statistical analysis of buildings).
3. You have to actually learn the fundamentals and be able to pass coding interviews.

But if you're willing to do those things, it's absolutely possible!

[vapid jay]

legend. thank you very much for the detailed response. I'm going to copy it into my notes and review once I've finished this bootcamp picking up the python basics to see what's next 🙂

[hearty island]

ok guys my interview is today, let's fucking kill it

[fair karma]

Hey guys, I will try to make this as short as possible. I am currently in my second year in computer engineering and I am not really enjoying college, It is giving only the tiny bits of information on a language and info. So I started overloading my study schedule with online courses because I enjoy self-learning computer stuff in general, however that is still basically first year for me to code and learn basics. Currently I am learning C both in college and by myself but I have some few questions I would like someone help me with their answers. 1) Should I learn on daily basis and keep revising all my previous notes all over the week without putting more time in extra problems than the ones already provided in the course and find extra problems to practice even as I am learning ?
2) How do I know that I am all done with the language and can move on to another language because everytime I feel like I am missing something and doubt my language knowledge.
3) Is it necessary to read documentations of the language I am currently learning?
4) How do I not forget other languages I learned before while learning another new language?
5)Do I need to learn Datastructure and Algorithms before I contribute in projects?
6) Mostly people tell me to focus on your skills not your certificates but after all most companies hire because of strong certifications and good past projects do I ignore certifications in languages and concepts(like ai) I self learn online aside from college.

[mortal wedge]

You got this! Go kick butt 🙂

[hearty island]

ty 🙂 you've been very supportive

[buoyant seal]

I am in software development... That is still double of my salary too, just because from third world country xD I hope I ll close the gap in nearby year or years though

[buoyant seal]

3. yes, eventually that it best source

[mortal wedge]

Good questions. I know you didn't ask this, but I do want to encourage you in case you're thinking otherwise that you definitely want to stay in school. Even if you're able to learn outside of school, employers are going to rely on that degree to see if you're a good fit for a position.

1. Only you know best how you learn. Whatever keeps you learning and motivated to push yourself to learn more concepts and such is up to you.
2. Let me put your mind at ease and disquiet it at the same time. You'll never know all there is to a language. The best you'll be able to do is learn most of what there is to a language in a specific way that you're applying it.
3. Probably. When you don't know how something works, the docs are your best go to to determine that.
4. Practice, but to a degree this is unavoidable.
5. Learning Data Structures and Algorithms are useful for wherever you go to be a software engineer imo. If you already know C, C is actually the language I recommend using to learn DSA.
6. Most companies don't care about certs, unless they are certs that they themselves grant. (AWS certs from Amazon, for instance). Good past projects do help as long as they're relevant and you can speak to them.

[buoyant seal]

4. u never stop practice xD choose Langs u like and concentrate on them
5. it is among lowest basics, yes, nothing prevents u doing projects without it though
6. so far I noticed only certificates like AWS, or Kubernetes matter. Basically very big companies which are equal to technology they represent.

[buoyant seal]

2. for some langs it will never happen xD
   I have high bar for me
   Learning best practices
   Ecosystem of libraries
   Becoming comfortable with code architecture in current Lang
   ...
   It matters only really finding which job role u like for sure to work in it.
   Then it defines which languages u need.
   During uni u will not learn even single language to certain good level, but it would have been great if you learnt at least one to the level expected in commercial programming

[fair karma]

Thanks for your reply! I have a question regarding 6) Normally is it better if I contribute in projects or build up my own project without contribution

[mortal wedge]

Contribute in projects. That shows that you're able to work in a collaborative environment and in 95 out of 100 jobs you're likely to be doing so.

[fair karma]

I have a question about 4. I don't think I will be able to manage learning 2 new languages at the same time both at college and by myself. Given that college don't give you enough time to adapt with constant examinations and so on so I can't really learn language I pretty much want to learn now aside from going in depth of the languages I take in college

[fair karma]

Is there is another place other than github where I can contribute in projects?

[mortal wedge]

There probably are, but github is definitely one of the most common version control/code collaboration systems. Is there a reason you don't want to do github?

[fair karma]

I don't think anyone is doing C, C++projects, C++ aside from game injecting.

[buoyant seal]

U never know where your limit xD

[fair karma]

I don't know how to use it yet. Learning lot of things at a time will burn me up and make me loose motivation especially that I rarely find time to even learn about the coding language I will have to finish it to start learning about data structures and algorithms it will take me forever. And most of the people on githup are way advanced than me

[mortal wedge]

I hear you, but that's sort of the point, knowing how to use github shows that you have experience working in a version control system and are able to collaborate with code. If I see something on a resume that says they collaborate on group projects, I'm going to ask them what version control or code collaboration platform they used. I'm probably going to specifically ask if they're familiar with github as that's what our company uses.

[fair karma]

I see, so Github if not necessary it is a massive boost to the CV right?

[mortal wedge]

It's not as critical as say the foundational elements of the job (like if they ask for experience with databases you should have experience with databases), but it's solidly in the nice to haves. For someone's first job out of college it's assumed that they'll be teaching them github

Honestly I would prioritize focusing on your studies

[fair karma]

My main problem is there are lot of stuff to learn but I have no time to learn specially that college is already overworking me by subjects with no use in the workplace it is only under the branch of academic subjects. And that alone is holding me back alot

I will try doing that thank you.

[serene kindle]

Just enjoy your free time and go on vacation instead

If you wanted to do your projects just take a break from school

People on GitHub have been coding for 30 years

[fair karma]

I am normally not nerdy but I prefer learning more code concepts or gaming than going on a vacation( Waste of money, Temporary escape from reality)

also sadly I can't take a break from college

[serene kindle]

Have you tried studying

Nevermind

That's the normal computer science student dilemma enjoy

[fair karma]

don't get me wrong ofc taking a break is essential but everything has a time. It like celebrating your retirement in your first day at a job

[mortal wedge]

Hmm, one thing you could do re: github is the next time you have a school project, suggest you all collaborate using github. That way you're still focused on your studies, you learn github and you have a backup for when someone accidentally deletes your codebase

[serene kindle]

You're burnt out but don't want a vacation, want to spend time doing a project can't take a school break, you want to do a project alongside school but can't because of constant exams

Yeah people just put their homework on GitHub

[fair karma]

I don't have code buddies sadly and my college focuses more on hardware than getting in depth of coding. I like both but they just don't want to balance it.

and we use Google classroom still I doubt they even know github exists 💀

[serene kindle]

Well yeah schools don't code

If you wanted to code you could do an internship

[fair karma]

another reason why I don't want to take a vacation is because I don't have a job I am only studying so no money to spend on vacations and chilling

[serene kindle]

If you don't want to vacation then don't. I'm not going to push you to holidays

[fair karma]

I went to one and it actually was helpful but as I said no time for that unless in the summer vacation which is one internship per year

[serene kindle]

Dang

You know usually students who are going to school do an absolutely insane amount of coding on the side

Not that i would though

Idk tbh gg

[fair karma]

[mortal wedge]

Try to avoid burnout. Some people managed part time /full time work in addition to being a student I could never manage that

[serene kindle]

They manage it by getting bad grades

[hearty island]

i do a part time internship rn during school

[mortal wedge]

They just aren't properly applying themselves. I did much better.

||I got bad grades and burnt out WITHOUT working any additional jobs||

[fair karma]

you can't blame them tho

[fair karma]

which year are you

[hearty island]

junior

[fair karma]

so we are the same ig

[vapid jay]

Debatable

[fair karma]

but I have no previous knowledge about coding sadly

in year one they teached us python syntax and loops and called it a day nothing more nothing less

[hearty island]

i don't code though it's a project management internship... which is more like a desk job 😭

[mortal wedge]

I was joking, see my spoiler text 😛

[hearty island]

i don't even do project management 😭

[mortal wedge]

Even if you're an individual contributor role, you might get called on to manage some projects, so it's not wasted experience

[fair karma]

it mostly matter from a person to another tbh and past experience play a huge role

[hearty island]

i've applied to probably 150 by now and only heard back from KPMG, Oracle, and UHG

[mortal wedge]

A lot of tech companies have done recent layoffs and hiring freezes. I can't speak to why, maybe someone else can, but it seems to be on tech focused companies across the board.

[hearty island]

and KPMG was for an accounting major internship and i'm not even accounting

[mortal wedge]

For some the reason is more obvious (Meta/Twitter) others less so

[fair karma]

can someone join an internship online

[mortal wedge]

Probably

[fair karma]

most of companies near my city aren't that too related to tech only

[smoky quest]

There are quite a few paid internships. It's a good opportunity to temporarily move to another city

[fair karma]

I go to college daily I can't just do that

90% of my problems are just from college

[hearty island]

my interview is in 15 minutes aaaaaaaaaaaa

[fair karma]

gl damian

[hearty island]

ty, i'm not sure if it's over the phone or in zoom bc in the email they said "phone call" but then it sent a zoom invite when i scheduled it

[serene kindle]

Have you considered 📉

Tbh i didn't understand either, firing people after 2 days with a 4 months of pay lol

[hearty island]

nah i'll turn on my camera i feel weird on interviews when i don't

[mortal wedge]

If they're experiencing that or they are projecting they'll experience that then it makes sense. I'm just not privy to company private data.

[serene kindle]

Private data? They have public reports for it

[mortal wedge]

Either way, breathe, try to relax, and come at this with the mindset of the two of you are trying to determine if you're a good fit for one another.

[hearty island]

yep yep

[mortal wedge]

Right, they produce their gains, but if they're projecting some downturn then I don't know.

If companies forsee bad times ahead they won't typically release that information, since their stock prices would dive.

||They'll just do insider trading||

[serene kindle]

Yeah i have no idea how finance works

Sounds complicated

[mortal wedge]

That's why we're not finance people, we're software people, lol

[hearty island]

i think all of this these past few days just shows that it's a good idea to cold email/call recruiters

[fair karma]

do I need to reach a certain level to apply for internships or I can apply at any point?

[hearty island]

apply, apply, and keep applying

[fair karma]

I don't even have a CV yet 😂

Well 4 mins to your interview Gl bro!

[serene kindle]

Cv???

Damn how did you even get jobs if you not skilled at applying for stuff

[hearty island]

thanks!

[serene kindle]

I applied like 10,000 jobs and like 100 interviews to get a job

[smoky quest]

Internships don't happen at the same time than school

There are no classes during internships

[fair karma]

I didnt get one before

[serene kindle]

I did internship along with school but it was a mistake

A lot of people do with me just throughout the school year it's not that bad

[fair karma]

yep but you learn actual work stuff and most of time need to be present there

[smoky quest]

so a part time job

[serene kindle]

Nah i was in research lab

[fair karma]

my college is 12 hours a day 6 am I wake up and I be back at home at 5:30 pm

[serene kindle]

I mean yes effectively

[smoky quest]

That sounds special.
The colloquial use of internships would be something done like in june -> July/August, when there are no classes

[serene kindle]

There were a lot of stuff like that since people actually code throughout the school year

Idk it seemed really common at my college

There were so many postings for students to code throughout the year part time at various things

[smoky quest]

these would be closer to a part time job than an internship. Not that it matters

[serene kindle]

Ok

Why is it some people with 10yoe make $50k while others make $500k???

[smoky quest]

I was on the road by 6:15am and was back home by 8/9pm

[serene kindle]

Like tbh i was hanging out with the $500k engineers and they're not even that legendary

[smoky quest]

Depends on the country, education, impact, etc.

[serene kindle]

Is it really just come down to a single interview?

[fair karma]

and you managed to add internship or side studies in your day?

[smoky quest]

Internships happen outside of school months. They would happen during the summer when there is no school.
If you do an internship at the same time you go to school, it's something else.

[serene kindle]

Lol i used to do full time school and 3 jobs

And i still had time to do massive amounts of my own coding projects,

[smoky quest]

that sounds unhealthy to be honest

[fair karma]

that too with side studies?

[serene kindle]

Well for my project i studied side stuff

[fair karma]

yep my country pays average 3K$ a year for a juniour software engineer

[serene kindle]

Yeah but come on, making a living by writing code is like a privilege of its own

I mean i get it, I'd work $500k job for 1 hour per week too if i could

[fair karma]

it is a job like other jobs and computer stuff are basically the second most paying public job aside from being a surgeon etc

[serene kindle]

i don't see coding as just a job maybe that's on me haha

[fair karma]

maybe you freelance

[serene kindle]

No i meant that i appreciate the opportunity to code

[fair karma]

oh I get it now

[white relic]

Those are co-ops, which are often (usually, in my experience) considered a kind of internship. I had one (US) and my title was officially "student <something> intern", I forget

[serene kindle]

Because i like the ability to invent things that i like as a creative artist and the more i code the better i can invent stuff

[fair karma]

I mean what is the point in working a whole day job if its not something you like

[serene kindle]

I just see the job as a way to improve my skill like a college or school

[fair karma]

ofc

[serene kindle]

Although tbh that was a mistake too, i should have tried to get money also to some degree

But somehow i feel like it's not worth working for money with that much time at stake

[fair karma]

I just looked up githup C projects and I couldn't find a real project I can contribute to 💀

[smoky quest]

Yeah, there are many options and things in between. There are even student clubs that take on actual projects.

[white relic]

I have heard people say that co-ops aren't really internships but that seems to be the minority interpretation tbh

[fair karma]

if you are in EU or US money shouldn't be a problem if you are a software engineer

[smoky quest]

haha, I have seen the opposite.
Co-ops are their own thing

[serene kindle]

Good point depends on location, i am USA

[fair karma]

then no problem I get what you mean tho

[hearty island]

whew, interview over

she did say there's only one pm internship slot, but she'll be reaching out to other recruiters in the company for me to see if there's any openings

[fair karma]

how did it go

[serene kindle]

How to job

👍 good luck

[hearty island]

i think it went well, i'll definitely know what happens with it by december 5th bc that's the deadline i gave them

[serene kindle]

Good.. job

[fair karma]

Nice work

[hearty island]

time to do my uhg interview

[serene kindle]

Did you get any job offers after all these interviews?

[serene kindle]

How many interviews and job offers do you have?

[hearty island]

they're only first round interviews, so no offers yet

[serene kindle]

Oh i forgot there were multiple rounds

[mortal wedge]

I was blown away with how careful/drawn out some recruiting processes are. Some take place over the course of a week, some take months

[serene kindle]

Haha i like how my job had just one interview and i got the job

[mortal wedge]

Wow, nice. Was it like... a panel interview with a lot of people?

[serene kindle]

Literally one person

One person in their apartment over a webcam 😂

I guess i didn't realize how lucky i was until now damn

Yeah I've had a 5 round interview before, the last interview was with the CEO literally the boss level

[buoyant seal]

my last job had just one technical interview, that had technical part and HR combined at the same time i think

[mortal wedge]

lol wtf

[buoyant seal]

and decision was made already tomrrow after interview? i think

[mortal wedge]

Well... nice. All the interviews I've participated in as a hirer have been as a part of a panel. As a candidate... it's either been a panel or multiple interviews.

[dawn leaf]

i once had a 3 day onsite interview culminating with the ceo, completely ridiculous
was told within 15 minutes of the interview ending that they passed on me
ceo didn't like me 🤣

[buoyant seal]

what is a panel?

[mortal wedge]

That's when it's multiple interviewers all interviewing you at the same time

[buoyant seal]

ah, okay, i had panel interview too then

[smoky quest]

It means the group of people who are going to interview you.
Sometimes it's within the same interview (multiple people in the same interview) or over the course of multiple interviews (1 interviewer each)

Having multiple people in the same interview is rather rare in the USA though, if not considered old school

[mortal wedge]

They can be a little unnerving, but companies like it because it's easier than setting up lots of interviews with each of the people.

It's also just convenient for when the interviewee leaves for everyone else to stay on the call and discuss while the interview is fresh in their minds

[serene kindle]

What do you think about leaving a job and using that free time to interview

Since the idea is the job prevents me from practicing interview

[smoky quest]

Same thing than last time: that's a bad idea and would make you less attractive.
If you have to quit to make time to study, that would point at deeper problems

If you feel that way, it may be rewarding to look at what you hope to accomplish and where you feel you are lacking

[serene kindle]

Ok

[dreamy shadow]

Also can make you desperate and take the first offer that comes along.

[smoky quest]

What do you think are missing to get your future job?

[hearty island]

Tell us about a time when a significant project or assignment did not go according to plan. When did you first anticipate that something would happen? What would you do differently if you could go back? oh dear god this is difficult

[smoky quest]

standard behavior question?

[hearty island]

it is yeah

[serene kindle]

Ability to pass the interview

I failed a lot of algorithm interviews for the nice jobs

Somehow i end up passing an easy algorithm interview but i think i need a massive amount of time to learn the skill to a good level

And ideally i want to be extremely skilled at system design interview to try to get the $500k senior jobs lol

[torn valve]

how much math does cs need cause if so then I'm screwed and I might not pick that as a career

[serene kindle]

I mean damn I'd learn anything for $500k

But ngl my work made me tired as hell so i just didn't study in my free time

[smoky quest]

• System design interviews are for mid+ engineers.

To improve your algo skills, you could:

• Pick up a book for the fundamentals like https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Algorithms-fourth-Thomas-Cormen/dp/026204630X/
• Practice. You can start with codingame and then transition to leetcode

[smoky quest]

I would focus less on the money and more on the interesting parts.

[dreamy shadow]

Lmao, I made two mistakes today talking to a recruiter. 1. was forgetting to add time zone and 2. when rescheduling I said push the meeting back 1 hour, when I meant 1 hour later. Lucky for me the earlier time works too.

[serene kindle]

Yeah I've been studying algorithm interviews for like 7 years

[dreamy shadow]

Try taking a course to learn it.

[serene kindle]

Yeah i just seem to fail interviews too much

[smoky quest]

When you get stuck somewhere, you can also go to #algos-and-data-structs and dig deeper to understand what you are missing

[hearty island]

"In this particular instance, I had just joined the project management team at my most recent internship. I was tasked to create a Smartsheet that was constantly updated using workflows, a tool that I had not previously learned. I used an incorrect workflow that alerted every single member of my team every time a change was made, which greatly annoyed them and spammed their inbox instead of double-checking with my training guide and my mentor. What I would have done differently is what I do now, thoroughly consulting the training guide and asking my mentor questions before I start doing anything. "

[serene kindle]

I still need to get a job somehow ideally

Ok

[dreamy shadow]

noooooo, do something smaller of a mistake

[hearty island]

i think this is a good response

uhhh what about a calendar invite

[serene kindle]

Aren't you supposed to say that you worked too hard

[dreamy shadow]

All that question asks is: "Do you know that you make mistakes & understanding how to fix them?"

[dreamy shadow]

No, this will automatically filter you out lol

[smoky quest]

feels a bit like "I had a bug. I learned I should not have a bug"

[hearty island]

yeah that's true

[dreamy shadow]

Sounds to me like: I did something wrong, so from now on I bug my manager for every task to OK it first.

[serene kindle]

Surely they're just testing that you have experience and don't actually care about the answer itself right

Nevermind i guess there's some engineering skill in how you handle situations if you know

[hearty island]

yeah i don't wanna sound like that

[smoky quest]

they are assessing how you detect the problems and react to them.

Remember that failing is not what matters. What matters is how you react to them

[hearty island]

should i say that i forgot to send out calendar invites for a meeting and then later fixed this by automating said calendar invites? why is this happening i normally never overthink behavioral questions

i must be nervous

[dreamy shadow]

Just remember, these questions are almost never verifiable. As long as you structure them correctly and aren't obviously bs.

[hearty island]

is what i said good?

[mortal wedge]

In theory it makes perfect sense and I can understand why you would do it. In practice though, someone with a job is a lot more desirable than someone without a job. We could get into the why, but it's easier to just accept that this is the case. (Some employers will flat out not hire anybody with any gaps in employment history).

[dreamy shadow]

Ideally, should revolve around something that you worked on. e.g. a prjoject that had a slight delay (but still managed to deliver on time), or a small bug that didn't ruin production.

[serene kindle]

I saw several people leave their job to interview and double their salary

[mortal wedge]

I like it! You made a mistake but then you engineered a solution to ensure the same mistake didn't happen twice.

[smoky quest]

Anything more project/technical oriented?

[mortal wedge]

You can't rely on this. There may be other factors at play and even then this is not the norm. You are more desirable when you have a job than without.

[smoky quest]

It's pretty easy to verify by asking for more details

[serene kindle]

I'm just reluctant since i spent 7 years studying algorithm interview so somehow the idea i could turn it around in a few months seems unreasonable

[mortal wedge]

I'm not sure I understand. Can you elaborate?

[serene kindle]

Somehow 3 of my coworkers left for be 6 months and doubled their salary

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, ofc have it be part of a real project & have some details. But no one truly knows if it was 5 lines or 10 lines of code that was bugged, etc.

[serene kindle]

I started leetcode 5 years ago

[smoky quest]

if it's that unimportant, it's not worth lying about

[hearty island]

can't think of anything

[smoky quest]

no school project? No problem during internships?

[mortal wedge]

Oftentimes in this industry you have to switch jobs to get a pay bump, that's just a well accepted reality. (Disclaimer: At least in the US)

[serene kindle]

Yeah I'm in USA

[hearty island]

oh yeah i visualized data incorrectly during my internship

[dreamy shadow]

That works, just spin it into a story

[smoky quest]

that sounds like a good start

[hearty island]

During my data analytics internship, I was tasked with visualizing call volume data. I started work on the project with Python without fully reading the documentation behind a Python library, Pandas. I then realized that I had visualized my data incorrectly 2 days before the deadline. I immediately apologized and read the documentation in order to visualize the data correctly. Moving forward, I always make sure to consult the documentation before visualizing data or writing any code.

hopefully that's better nvm

[serene kindle]

That sounds terrible to me lol

Why would anyone read the docs before writing any code

[smoky quest]

• How did you notice it was incorrect?
• So you read the doc, apologized but did not fix it? 😉
• Your learning from it still sounds like "I shall not write bugs in my code anymore"

[dreamy shadow]

Ok, the goal of behavioral questions is not to punch yourself. Lightly gloss over what you went wrong, and focus on what you did to correct it.

[serene kindle]

Yeah and those emotional things are terrible

[dreamy shadow]

I would suggest putting the question into google and look at some sample responses first.

[serene kindle]

I felt awful 😂

[hearty island]

😦

[serene kindle]

If you're struggling this basic level of interview you should practice with someone

[dreamy shadow]

Look up sample responses!!!

[hearty island]

"In my recent employment history, I was hired to complete a project for an important and high-profile client. I was offered the opportunity to add other employees to my team for the job, but instead, I chose to take the majority of the work on by myself, believing mistakenly that if I wanted it done right, I would have to do it myself. The workload proved to be too much for me. The project failed the first time around, and I ended up having to hire other team members at the time when I should have had the original project already completed.

Together, we did end up bringing the project to completion eventually. Bouncing back from that mistake was a huge blow to my ego, but I have learned since that teamwork, delegation and working seamlessly with others is sometimes the best and only way to accomplish large tasks such as the one I was assigned." - example i found

[serene kindle]

Damn the project failed

That's such a brutal thing to say in an interview

[smoky quest]

lmao, that's also a bad example.
Nothing in it makes me confident the author wouldn't do it again

[dreamy shadow]

lmao, reading "ego" in a behavioral 🚪

[mortal wedge]

I don't think the mention to ego was necessary, but a company is definitely interested in how someone reacts when they make a mistake. Because it's not an if they make a mistake, it's when they make a mistake.

A company wants transparency, when you made the mistake, what did you do and who did you inform about it? What steps did you take to fix it? How did you ensure it doesn't happen again?

[serene kindle]

It's supposed to demonstrate adapting to a trash situation not extreme incompetence

[hearty island]

yeah i don't like that example, let me see if there's something else

[serene kindle]

These examples are awful

[hearty island]

"I was responsible for interacting with big clients and understanding the requirements. Being a fresher, I did not pay much attention to the details of the project. Instead, I focused only on my ethics and discipline. My poor listening skills led me to lose one of the most significant projects of the organization." dear god

[smoky quest]

One thing the interviewer will be looking for is how you would prevent it from happening again. Stating "I will make sure I don't write bugs" is just wishful thinking.
So think in terms of things that could have help you ensure you were on the right track (ex: validating the requirements, checking with a mentor on a regular basis, checking with someone on regular basis, doing basic statistical/visual tests, etc.)

[serene kindle]

Lol are you trolling all these examples are how to fail interviews

[hearty island]

no, i'm legitmately trying to find one

[dreamy shadow]

https://www.themuse.com/advice/4-steps-for-answering-tell-me-about-a-time-you-failed Try this

[mortal wedge]

Explanation of the mistake made should be brief and it shouldn't be dwelled on. Transition to what you learned or how you improved.

[hearty island]

i think i'm really nervous and it's causing me to mess up

[mortal wedge]

But yeah, the purpose of the question is how you react in the moment to making mistakes and what you do in the future to reduce the occurrence of them.

[hearty island]

i liked that calendar invite one, even though it wasn't technical at all

[mortal wedge]

Also, these are relatively common interview questions, which works in your favor. You can choose your "best" mistake and practice it

and this probably goes without saying, but don't mention a mistake that shows like... character flaws, serious moral failures, or other red flags.

[mortal wedge]

I liked that one 🙂

[dreamy shadow]

Also, a lot of these questions will vary slightly, but underlying ask the same thing. e.g. Tell me a time you failed at... tell me a recent hurdle you overcame...

[smoky quest]

the cure is to do more of them until you stop being nervous

[smoky quest]

They all have three parts:

• Describe a situation describing the skill assessed
• Describe what you did at the time
• Describe what you learned form it / how you would do it today

[mortal wedge]

Interview prep is a skill like any other. It can be developed and practiced. STAR is quite popular

(Situation - Task - Action - Result)

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, STAR

I always have a word doc w/ the standard questions preped

[serene kindle]

How everyone has so much time for interviews

[dreamy shadow]

You just have to make time. It is like a second job though.

[serene kindle]

Yeah i barely had the energy to do interviews let alone prepare for them, that's why i fail so hard

[mortal wedge]

It's difficult. I won't lie. But because the returns are huge we put the time in.

[dreamy shadow]

I have a 3 30min panel style coming up, 1:30 mins total

[serene kindle]

Yeah my mistake

Nice enjoy it lol

[mortal wedge]

The question I hate the most are "What is your biggest weakness". "I'm addicted to caffeine and when I run out I get stabby"

[dreamy shadow]

What is your biggest strengths?

[serene kindle]

Do programmers actually have friends in real life??

[mortal wedge]

What are those?

[serene kindle]

How much mg caffeine a day?

[mortal wedge]

Enough to kill a small mammal

[serene kindle]

Yeah i see the programmers who study during their commute, and work all day long, and then go home and do masters degree. Amazing stuff

[mortal wedge]

It is amazing. Not everyone is that stellar at life, though

[smoky quest]

You could get some good results with as little as 30min here and there

[dreamy shadow]

Some default questions I already have preped: (addition to the about me & current job)
Why are you looking for this job/new position? (Why Company?)
What do you like about your current/last job?
What do you dislike about your last job?
What hurdles or obstacles have you overcome?

Glad I also preped "What is a p-value?" I hate this question the most.

[mortal wedge]

Ah hah hah

Honestly I think the biggest weakness one is a BS question that deserves a BS answer, but that's just me. It's a pet peeve question.

But if asked you should not only mention your weakness but how you overcome/compensate for it.

[runic abyss]

yo has anyone used salesforce/apex before? Will most likely be using it for my potential intern position and it seems insanely boring

[dreamy shadow]

I have weakness & strenghts in there too. "I like to learn", "I can get caught up in details"

[mortal wedge]

Have used it, it's boring

[serene kindle]

Boring but has jobs

[mortal wedge]

P-Value, the likelihood you would see the same results if your hypothesis was wrong. That's the most clear way I can dumb it down

[serene kindle]

Might as well in this job market, boring stuff that is in companies is a way to get jobs

[runic abyss]

😩 , yea I assumed id be doing java and they started talking about salesforce 💀 , seems like it its a niche kinda thing where I will only really be gaining experience in that and would need another salesforce type job after

[dreamy shadow]

One time I was to " describe a project at a non technical level". Interviewer didn't like my answer, so I asked them how I should have answered. Then used their answer in the next interview and it worked lmao.

[mortal wedge]

lmao nice

[serene kindle]

Good point but yeah ultimately programming jobs end up specialized

[smoky quest]

it is a derivative of java tbh

[dreamy shadow]

I had a good laugh, cuze the answer was pretty bs

[mortal wedge]

Did it involve a lot of BS business speak? Did you drive quarterly deliverables through horizontal growth?

[serene kindle]

I'm practice, idk the life of the MANGA generalists

[runic abyss]

I would assume it would be easier to work with since its connected to salesforce stuff? or is it literally just a programming language

[dreamy shadow]

They wanted me to narrow the answer down to like 5 year old. Model see more blue color, model like blue color.

[serene kindle]

Nobody knows

[smoky quest]

Focus on the outcome not the tool.
Like as a cook, you would focus on the dish at the end, not how masterful you are with a table spoon

[smoky quest]

Also expect to learn and work with multiple languages over the course of your career. So don't pigeon hole yourself

[serene kindle]

I mean in every job there going to be some sort of custom code base that isn't generalized

[hearty island]

Q3:

Situation: At my last internship, we had important weekly meetings.

Task: My task was to send out calendar invites for every week. . One day, I found out that I forgot to send out calendar invites for an important meeting and we didn't have it.

Action: I rectified this by automating my calendar invites to send out every week

Result: I never mis-scheduled a meeting again after making sure to schedule them weekly.

[dreamy shadow]

SAS

[hearty island]

that's better... right?

[mortal wedge]

If I read that, I'd probably ask you what you did once you realized that you forgot the invite. That's great for how you handled things in the future, but I'd be curious how you handled it in the moment.

[hearty island]

hm

[mortal wedge]

(But it's good overall)

[hearty island]

no you're right i'm thinking on what to say

i responded by sending out a manual calendar invite to each member of the meeting

[hearty island]

ooh, Tell us about the most difficult feedback you have ever received and what you did with the information. What made the feedback so challenging? How did you use the feedback to improve?

I think maybe a potential answer is to not be a perfectionist? or to take more time with work to avoid silly mistakes?

[smoky quest]

That would be missing the point.
The point is literally the question

[hearty island]

maybe asking for help when I need it?

“When I first started working, I had a habit of interrupting my colleagues during meetings. I was a bit over-enthusiastic and being an extrovert, I wanted to make sure I felt included. It was until later that I realized this attitude was turning many people off. I have since recognized the value of active listening and how discussions can be much better had if one tries to open the floor for everyone to participate. I now count to five before I start to speak after someone has finished.” -> nope this one is awful

[smoky quest]

The question is literally about your ability to take difficult feedback.
So asking for help would be irrelevant

It's probably less frequent to have had that experience as an intern though

[hearty island]

yeah that's why i'm stuck, i'm looking for sample answers

i could make it up and be like i was told that i rush through my work when i feel overwhelmed, but i don't want to sound too negative

actually that could be a great answer

[smoky quest]

don't make up shit.
It's better to say you can't think of something than lying

You could however create the conditions for an answer: go ask for feedback from a teacher or a classmate with whom you worked on a project

[hearty island]

i was told in my accounting class that sometimes i stop people from thinking about answers because i answer too quickly. that's an example of feedback

[smoky quest]

yeah that's a worthy example

[hearty island]

the reason why the feedback was so challenging was because i love to help people learn and i don't want to take that opportunity away from anyone

i used that feedback to improve by giving people the opportunity to think about their response before i answer so they have time to undergo their own learning process

that could work

i really can't think of anything else, so that's what I'll go with

ok guys i did it

all 5 interview questions done

[spark zinc]

can i drop resume here ?

[buoyant seal]

anonymized, sure

[spark zinc]

I’m applying mainly for ML and controls, motion planning, robotics jobs (50% ML 50% control + motion planning)

[peak halo]

• what do you mean by "4.0 in the following subjects"? does that mean that you got an A in all of those courses? or that your overall GPA is 4.0, and those are some interesting courses that you took?
• hyphenate "multi-agent"
• you don't "implement algorithms onto" things. you can deploy them in things, though. (your next use of "implemented" is correct.)
• "extensively using optimization" -- unless there's a specific optimization technique that you used, I would omit this. it comes across as though you're trying too hard to indicate that you're performance-aware.
• was the third experience item an internship? are you allowed to say what you did specifically, or is it NDA'ed?
• When you say "Research papers were reviewed", are you using the passive voice to avoid saying "I reviewed research papers", or was a research paper that you wrote reviewed by someone else?
• The scholarship that you received can go in a separate honors/awards section, or in the education section. I would drop the "prestigious" part and the dollar amount

Your AI/ML experience is impressive for an undergraduate. I think you'll do great in this space. (I work for an AI/ML company.)

[rapid delta]

homie good luck

[smoky quest]

The two main things for me are:

• There is no description of any impact or outcome
• Experience appears to mix in internships, school projects with various things. I would label them more clearly.

[charred gazelle]

what jobs can you get with a good understanding of python

[smoky quest]

There are few jobs which could leverage python. See https://roadmap.sh/
Note you will need more than python as demonstrated by that list. A degree will also greatly make your career easier and better

[rapid delta]

oh thanks man

needed that link

[ancient aspen]

Hey there, I'm looking for my fellow biotechnologists, anyone else do bioinformatics?

Or any other biomedical engineers?

[fair karma]

do I need to finish the roadmap till the end before jumping to another language?

[mortal wedge]

Yes

[ancient aspen]

That's awesome, most SWEs I know don't know anything about science 😦 which is ok, it's not for everyone but it's my passion

[mortal wedge]

I hear you. I'm employed doing software R&D in the life sciences. I'm looking to make a change though, I have a phone screening regarding a bioinformatics position tomorrow morning

[ancient aspen]

Oh wow congratulations 🎉

Best of luck dude 🥳👏

[mortal wedge]

Thank you 🙂

[ancient aspen]

I hope it's the company and position that you want! If not then there are more fish in the sea

I'm sure you'll do great

[mortal wedge]

Thanks appreciate it! I'm interviewing a lot right now. Hope to find something that's right for me, but there's no rush. I'm not particularly hurting rn at my current position

[rain fjord]

What kind of questions about Python I can expect for a mid-senior level backend developer position?

I haven't given any proper interview since my first job. I have been working in startups and stuff where things went smoothly and because I had people recommend me whenever I was looking for a job change.

[vapid jay]

I am new in learning pythons can someone tell me how much time should i spend on coding and when will i get my first job (i know it will take so much time 💀 but still)

[gritty rivet]

If you search around there are loads of lists of question ideas, here's an example: https://www.fullstack.cafe/blog/backend-developer-interview-questions

If you're interviewing for a large enough company you can research their interview process specifically

[rain fjord]

Thank you. I searched and I was getting all crappy stuff from medium and other similar websites. This one looks really good. Also I am looking for startup companies only, not any major ones.

[near ocean]

This depends entirely on you and what kind of education choices you make

[vapid jay]

?

[gritty rivet]

Focus on getting a degree if at all possible.

If not, just spend as much time learning per day and per week as you reasonably can. Then as soon as you have a couple of projects to put on your resume, start applying for jobs. Nobody can say how long it will take you to achieve your goals, but make your plan in terms of weeks / months / years and re-evaluate as you go

[vapid jay]

hmm

[near ocean]

What does ? mean
It obviously depends on how much you're willing to put into it

[vapid jay]

oh ok thanks

[buoyant seal]

Mid or senior, or middle of senior
Different stuff, worked with Elastic Search?, analyzed SQL queries, difference between subprocess/ Multithreading/concurrency in python.
Can be having even system design tasks.
Questions regarding message queue and event streaming systems.
With how much data intensive stuff u worked with.
Questions regarding docker/ansible/CI CD/kubernetes can be possible too.
With which cloud provider u worked with and what made there.
Name git commands X, design patterns

[rain fjord]

looks promising, thanks.

[inner grove]

hi im new to programming what are good topics to start with like security or others
i need advice what start with or what are fun

[vapid jay]

As a teen how can I get a programming job

[gilded valley]

you cannot

[vapid jay]

Why?

??

[peak halo]

It takes a few years of experience before you know enough about programming that it's worth it to hire someone instead of the hiring person just doing it themselves, and teenagers haven't been non-children for very long. and teenagers, by and large, are not very mature (as is expected), so hirers aren't going to want to take that risk.

if you want to make money as a programmer, and you're currently a teen, your time is best spent doing well in school (and math courses especially) so that you'll be a competitive applicant to a computer science university program.

[vapid jay]

im pretty new to coding aswell, can someone point me in the right direction to where I can learn proper coding

[mortal wedge]

Well, Python is a general purpose language. So I’d encourage you to think differently. Instead of trying to figure out what Python is good at and learning it, think about topics you enjoy and then see if Python can apply. You should be quite happy with the results

[mortal wedge]

!resources check out these there are some good ones here

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[mortal wedge]

A position I’m applying for wants code samples. Any tips? It’s not like I can just anonymize production code I wrote lol.

[buoyant seal]

no pet projects u can share?
and yeah, it is possible just to anonymize work code xD (guess how i wrote my article some time ago)

well.. at least i anonmyzed code which was just related to CI pipeline/testing stuff

[mortal wedge]

I have plenty of code from coding competitions, but none of that is anywhere near production ready lol

Since the point is to code fast and take shortcuts

I probably will wind up either anonymizing prod code I wrote or just rewriting it, since I should probably code something related to the shared industry

[vapid jay]

ok

[sick sierra]

show them you are able to perform in the competitions

being able to progam issues on the spot, shows you work well under pressure and that you are intuniative

[mortal wedge]

Hmm. Maybe I'll take a look at some of the harder entries and try to code a more elegant solution to it.

[smoky quest]

leetcode, competitive programming and other related activities do not translate very well to the actual duties of a job

[mortal wedge]

Yeah, probably best to just rewrite something industry specific

[fair karma]

I cant solve most of code wars, online competitive coding stuff .( I am taking it as a practice beside learning the language ) I am still not done with the course but I fell really discouraged when I cant solve a code wars question.

[formal maple]

Hey, I'm struggling in finding my first job as a software engineer. I'm constantly learning but I'm pretty sure I'm not that bad as a software engineer.

I knew a guy that was a mid level engineer and he said I was good for a junior. The problem is that I have no way of proving it to companies as I'm not a - 'I did a two months online course and I deserve a SE job.' - type of guy. And they possibly think that.

Past year I have been writing code all day pretty much everyday. Before that I studied maths, physics and did a little bit of programming. But do not have a degree.

I like to be humble so my cv is humble too, should I change it make it look like I'm a genius or something. Also I don't post on github because I don't think my code will be useful for anyone as its just me coding and doing little projects. Maybe I should post even the useless stuff?

Because companies don't even give me interviews or coding questions to complete so I can't prove myself...

[true harness]

you're welcome to send an anonymized resume for us to review

[maiden lava]

I am 15, if i study hard programming and Algorithm logic everyday i can get atleast a programming job (even minimum wage) at 18?

[true harness]

it's possible, but the standard way is to go to a university/college and get a CS degree

[maiden lava]

I am considered smart with maths acording to my friends, teacher and family but i doubt it, with 3 years of studying programming everyday i will be considerated Junior in programming? Also what are the 3 main code languages i should learn?

If i focus on concepts it will be easier for me to learn more languages? Because the concept stands, but the language can change at any moment

[smoky quest]

You would not be considered junior in programming

[true harness]

while technically true, there are languages in use now that are probably still going to be used when you retire. learning a language and learning concepts go together, you can't do one without the other

[smoky quest]

It's about demonstrated skills.
As the sales say goes: show, don't tell.

Without a degree or any prior experience or opportunity to showcase them, that means relying on projects

[maiden lava]

Hmm ok, thx you all for anwsering* my questions 🙂

[spark cobalt]

That wouldn't be enough.

[smoky quest]

There is no shortcut.
Since you are still young, you should:

• Aim for a CS degree, at least a BS. To that end, make sure you have the grades for it.
• Have fun and build things. Make robots, websites, backends, mobile apps, etc. Learn new skills and enjoy!

[spark cobalt]

As recursive was saying you need to showcase your skills. You won't have the opportunity to showcase your DSA until you actually land an OA/technical interview, which is tough to get without a college degree in the first place.

Yeah start building a project that aligns with your other personal aspirations. Create a tool for a gaming community you're in, etc. Have a constant feedback loop and your project will build itself 🙂

[twin jewel]

guys i just started learning python and i need help

[spark cobalt]

#❓｜how-to-get-help

[twin jewel]

it s so stupid

[maiden lava]

Today is my second day of learning and im studying python and after i learn enough i will change to JS, i created a quadractic function calculator and im so excited because its my first program, i cant wait to see what i will be capable of doing later

[forest kestrel]

What stage of python learning are you at

[smoky quest]

Nice! Congrats!

[forest kestrel]

Good Start

[twin jewel]

i made a sum calcuator but i get this error i think because i used a float

[spark cobalt]

#❓｜how-to-get-help

[forest kestrel]

a sum calculator

[spark cobalt]

This channel is for careers not this.

[forest kestrel]

no offence, but that is the worst first project ive hear of

[twin jewel]

addition

[spark cobalt]

Eh.

[forest kestrel]

Nah

[spark cobalt]

Aimless Leetcode grind isn't an effective use of time.

[forest kestrel]

Make personal Project

@twin jewel DM whats not working

[smoky quest]

They are just starting to learn the language. Leetcode would just confuse them

[forest kestrel]

your name gave me vietnam flashbacks

Use codewars, and hackerrank if you r a beginner

[smoky quest]

codingame would be more entertaining

[forest kestrel]

what is "codinggame"

[smoky quest]

a website

[spark cobalt]

Some of my freshman friends in college are loving codewars.

[forest kestrel]

Just googled it, seems like a good tool

[twin jewel]

thx man

i found the prob i needed to change str to float

[forest kestrel]

yes

[viscid portal]

theoretically

would a certification of any sort in the comp sci/ cyber security/ software engineering fields respectively give me a leg up as far as finding a job or internship ? or should i just go for broke and try for a degree

[forest kestrel]

what certificate

[viscid portal]

most likely from a university

[smoky quest]

certs have zero value, outside of specific niches that are more vendor specific

[viscid portal]

unfortunate, so degree it is then?

[true harness]

other than things like AWS certs, GCP stuff. certs about tech that come from the company making the tech are ok

[spark cobalt]

It definitely helps, but it wouldn't give you a leg up over the 99.99% of everyone else with a degree.

[smoky quest]

Degrees are the easiest and most promising path

[viscid portal]

right right, another question i have is this. hypothetically if somebody were to have an ambition to go into college with no coding knowledge whatsoever, would there be any pre requisites you'd encourage them to learn or classes to take beforehand or do you think they'd be able to learn everything they need while getting said degree?

basically do they just teach theory in college

[true harness]

it would help if you knew how to program beforehand, but introductory courses assume 0 prior knowledge

[gilded valley]

Cyber security is probably a place where certifications are valued the most - and even there, you still need the degree to be in the door

[smoky quest]

Colleges will assume students have no coding experience and will start from scratch.
The only thing I would recommend is to make sure you have the grades to meet the acceptance criteria

[near ocean]

You dont need coding experience for a CS degree
Obviously knowing the fundamentals would put you ahead but not necessary
My graduating class was like 90% kids that never wrote a single line of code before

[viscid portal]

well, there arises an issue. i didn't take the normal route through high school and tested out a year early due to life complications i'd rather not talk about here. my grades were never that good but my ged test scores were considerably good as well as my standardized tests. am i doomed

[maiden lava]

Going in college with great Experience is a free sleep moment
What are these "backend" and "frontend" i hear about all the time?

[viscid portal]

i wasn't dumb i just had issues