career-advice

[dreamy shadow]

It's a generic check box at the bottom of the page, So I'll contact the recruiter to clarify.

[balmy mural]

COBOL is a dying language. C# isn't. It's not a logical comparison to me

I only used C# where required during uni since I didn't like it too much. I'll still be using it once I start working. By not knowing it as well as my peers I'm immediately at a slight disadvantage in the same job

If your local job market doesn't use any C#, then yes. Don't learn it. But if majority of backend jobs use C# and .NET somewhere, advising people to not learn it cause it's part of Microsoft's ecosystem is pointless since they'll still likely end up learning it on the job

[dreamy shadow]

Also, what is "relocation restrictions"? It's first time I"m seeing this question after "Relocation Yes/No". Like a restraining order against me? That's the only thing I was able to find googling.

[spark cobalt]

Basically a roundabout way of saying are you willing to relocate to the area of the company.

[leaden jasper]

If you're willing to move somewhere else for the job

[near ocean]

They're asking if youre ok with relocating or whether you have any issues with it/need financial assistance/etc

[leaden jasper]

Like my company is HQed in Cali, but I was not willing to relocate. So they offered me a remote position

[buoyant seal]

Using C# u a offering yourself to participate in Windows Servers deployed Web development.
That is the catch... The concept of deploying anything to Windows Servers is yet another COBOL.

And their Linux ecosystem is small as Rust in market share of web development. So not really in demand ;b

[dreamy shadow]

They have a specific Relocation question, that's why I'm confused lol. I guess financial assistance makes more sense.

[near ocean]

We don't need to argue this C# point simply because its just not true that its prohibitive
So many companies, startups and not use C#, suggesting people not bother with it is bad advice

[leaden jasper]

It could also be a "can't move until X month" or like trying to move not during the school year in case you have kids

[dreamy shadow]

Oh! Yea, like a rental agreement. or school. Thanks, great point.

[frigid skiff]

Guys I used to work at a fund where I worked on designing / developing / infrastructure for trading strategies (crypto and classical markets). The company shut down and there are no similar companies hiring in the place where I live. Remote companies want people that are good with numbers / have a math background which I dont. I dont wanna switch careers to building eshops (I find it very boring). Do you have any recommendations for a field using Python that I could try to switch to?

[gritty rivet]

What interesting jobs are you seeing where you live? You could focus on targeting your skills that way.

It sounds like you have pretty strong skills already in a particular area you enjoy, it might also not hurt to pitch yourself to companies that aren't currently hiring but could potentially create the job you're looking for if they like you enough

[indigo crown]

how can i know that iam ready to be employer as a python developer

[gritty rivet]

You won't really know until you get hired, so if you think you might be, then apply for jobs

Feel free to share your resume anonymously here for feedback

[indigo crown]

i mean , what kind of project should i able to make , so i really know where my level is

[white relic]

what kind of projects are you interested in?

[buoyant seal]

if u finished bachelor's degree, and made at least... one project in the job role u wish, highly likely u a already junior. Especially if u succesfully made several of them, and you know... just can do the job. Seeking problems and solving them. The best if u do it on your own and understanding where it is time to ask for help, and when it is not.
Usually junior is having at least 3-6 months of job commercial experience at least... and u know... he was just not fired after trial period. That's already kind of enough.

if u learned generic software engineering skills + ecosystem of stuff necessary to know for your job role, and practiced all of it for few years, highly likely you can become middle dev (a good amount of people can remain juniors for many more years, even for 8 years people remain still juniors, it pretty much depends on your dedication to self studies and amount of luck to encounter challenging necessary type of work to learn stuff in a work process too)

most of people do not go above middle rank for their whole career. Senior is basically same as middle dev, just every generic topic he knows at a much deeper level, deeper understanding of software engineering stuff, even more broad knowledge of ecosystem to his job role and even more job experience to accommodate all of it

[chrome kiln]

hello, is it allowed to post job ads in here ?

[frank crater]

"not for recruitment", read the topic

[indigo crown]

what if i didnt learn from colatge and cant get bachelors degree , and i didnt have community that tells me you are in the right path , i just want know what kind of project they ask in the most common company

[buoyant seal]

That becomes more problematic to evaluate. The thing with bachelor degree, that people are very highly likely to have relevant soft skills necessary for their evolution into junior/middle ranks.
Having degree is like.. a proof that you can interact with other people, and to learn stuff independently on your own. +Has broad knowledge of software engineering basics in every possible aspect university gave him.
It is very unlikely that u would have finished university, if u did not have those qualities.

That's why it is quite short time to reach Junior rank (not guaranteed though) and possible shortcut to Middle rank (though not guaranteed too)

[buoyant seal]

Anyway, projects depend on desired job role.

[indigo crown]

can you give me the most hardest project that contain all python methods and function , so if i make it , i know that my level is even close from junior

[true harness]

that's not usually how projects work. try making something you'd be interested in

[near ocean]

do you already have a university degree?

[buoyant seal]

Any project in software development can be made in a simple way and the most complicated way.

Besides that it is impossible jumping to most complicated ways without learning how to do in simple ways first

Because... when u do in software development things in a bad way, code can become so hard to understand, that no human brain will be able to comprehend what is going on there (Including the most senior developers). Well except, saying that smells horribly in all possible different bad flavors xD

All software develoment projects are possible to develop further. From simple stuff to more complicated.

[indigo crown]

i have but in different field and i love software feild so i entired it

[indigo crown]

I would like to ask professional people, and would love to give me their experiences in the field

[white relic]

It will be easier to get into software development if you can find a job that capitalizes on your prior experience. All kinds of industries employ programmers in one way or another. If you don't mind telling, in what field is your degree?

[indigo crown]

i have a dgree in social services , its far away from software

[white relic]

I had an internship at an embroidery company in college

[spark cobalt]

There's someone on YouTube that interned for some economic shit and got a return offer and he asked if he could switch to software on the return offer and they allowed it. Most definitely still interviewed him for software stuff, but it is a possibility.

[indigo crown]

and you are now software ?

[spark cobalt]

If you like games and whatnot, projects that I see people enjoy making a lot within their own gaming communities are inventory/hero managers with a website that allows people to manage their resources/etc. That also has a Discord bot attached to it for easy display of their items/heroes/etc.

An easy way to have a constant feedback loop and have many ways to go above and beyond. One that I've seen takes a screenshot input and is able to detect what items/heroes at what investments/etc. from it.

But yeah it's super dependent on your personal interest/aspirations, as well as career interests in terms of what field you wanna get into. This is just an example of how someone can bring those two together.

[white relic]

Well... more or less 😅 I'm a researcher in new electronics tech but functionally software engineering is a big part of it. >50% right now.

The internship was all software and they replaced me with a FTE developer at the time.

[dreamy shadow]

The nice thing about software is imo they care a bit less about which degree, and more of if you can do x,y,z coding questions. But, of course the type of degree plays a part in getting an interview.

[spark cobalt]

^

While many variables can come into play, as a self learner that "made it" (graduated high school 5 months ago). It took a fuckton of applications. Nearly 4000 to get 2 job offers.

And that's on top of doing 10 other ways to optimize my job search that many others aren't doing. Walking in companies in person, going to local dev meetups, calling local recruiters, etc.

You have a degree so you won't be filtered out to the extent I have. But yeah

Imagine if every new grad did more than the bare minimum

God that would be intense...

[dreamy shadow]

I honestly believe when a job description says x, y, z qualities preferred, they just filter people out that don't have them.

[indigo crown]

iam interesting about web developming and i have experiance 3 years at least in this feild but i love to switch to python or use it as a back end in my website i mean django here is my humble portofolio in githubhttps://ibrahimmoamen100.github.io/My-Resume/

[spark cobalt]

I mean the job description for the job I have now is MS/PhD requirement

I filled a solid 2/8 qualifications. And those 2 were behavioral stuff

But yeah for the most part, that's what I experienced

[spark cobalt]

Resume link doesn't work

[indigo crown]

https://ibrahimmoamen100.github.io/My-Resume/

[dreamy shadow]

Works for me lol

[spark cobalt]

Oh the website itself is the resume

I was clicking the My Resume link

Yeah you're definitely hirable. Just a matter of landing that interview.

[dreamy shadow]

Not sure if I would include facebook handle lol

[spark cobalt]

They probably wouldn't click on it anyways

[indigo crown]

you are using phone or pc ?

any ways the website is responsive on any devices

[dreamy shadow]

I'm using PC, firefox + ublock origin.

[indigo crown]

then it should work with you , i dont know

[spark cobalt]

Yep it is for me at least

[buoyant seal]

Sick. Going to show it to another person wishing to become frontend developer(without degree) as an example... what they are needing to have for hirability xD

[dreamy shadow]

Oh, the facebook & linkedin links are dead either way.

[buoyant seal]

who cares. not a frontend job to do xD

[buoyant seal]

a bit sus that they are broken though

[dreamy shadow]

Just wanted to let them know. Some people with the github.io resumes have broken links left and right.

[indigo crown]

all links are dead ?

[dreamy shadow]

No, only facebook & linkedin in the top right corner

[indigo crown]

yes should i doing cloning of the famous website to try my skills

[indigo crown]

yes i closed my facebook account xD

i just remmber that

[buoyant seal]

u have plenty enough of graphical/CSS layout cloning already.
I will prefer to see some client side javascript interactivity with React.js, going between different pages, submitting posts into the feed, pressing buttons essentially and changing stuff

[buoyant seal]

(including in your facebook clone)

[indigo crown]

yes you are right that the most important part to do so i can get a job

[dreamy shadow]

Honestly, just start applying. Half the time they don't even look at links you have on your resume.

[buoyant seal]

as most killer feature would be if u made some games to play from browser, anything u will make, but than more it would be seen as javascript challenging for some code then better

[buoyant seal]

like... applying actually in code Object Oriented Programming, SOLID, unit testing and etc, to make a serious game / structure

[indigo crown]

thanks for encarge me

[indigo crown]

i am not interesting on games but i will try

[buoyant seal]

games can be serving pretty much practical purpose, learning stuff https://mastery.games/flexboxzombies/ like this one to learn flexboxes to reflexes
or this one to learn Git CLI https://learngitbranching.js.org/ (recommending to go through btw)

interactive tutorials at this point

[buoyant seal]

https://cssgridgarden.com/ learning CSS grid

[hearty island]

aw damn

costco analytics called me for an internship but it’s during school 😦

[proper cargo]

wtf 60.000 people fired off tech companies in 2022, the big tech bubble is goin down :O

cant post link

Twitter, Meta, Amazon: Why is Everyone Getting Fired? -- on youtube, im shocked

[summer roost]

They don't. In fact, the single biggest piece of advice I give to juniors applying to jobs is to ignore the requirements and apply to any job that sounds like it might be a good fit for their interests and skills.

[hearty island]

they don’t unfortunately

[summer roost]

is costco analytics really prestigious enough to delay your graduation for? I wouldn't have thought so...

[near ocean]

Bad growth predictions, overhiring, multitude of reasons really, probably wont affect the average dev

[summer roost]

overhiring
Some portion of the FAANG hiring strategy has been hiring people at exorbitant rates just so that other companies can't afford to hire them. If you're an entrenched player, you benefit from depriving smaller companies of talent.

[proper cargo]

true

[near ocean]

Meta specifically might just be trying to recover from the money sink black hole oopsie that is the metaverse

[summer roost]

who could have predicted that

[spark cobalt]

[near ocean]

I dont think sites like layoffs.fyi even show the percent of layoffs that are engineering/software related so you should take it with an even bigger pinch of salt
Like a fistful probably

[true harness]

for an internship

The compensation for this position ranges from $45,760.00 - $135,200.00/yr and will vary depending on factors such as your location, skills and experience.

[summer roost]

hm - my only guess would be that the top of the band is somehow for mid-career switchers with relevant experience

[spark cobalt]

Recursive was saying how his interns get paid 135k

[white relic]

heck of a spread though

[summer roost]

interesting. That's higher than I'd have expected.

[spark cobalt]

Here. 130k* close enough though

[summer roost]

tbf it's been over a decade since I was an intern - but back than $45k/year was a fairly high rate for an intern. And I'd have thought inflation would have put that around $60k or $70k/year now.

[jagged forge]

Are internships different in US? Aren't internships like 2 months (semester)?

[true harness]

they're about 10-12 weeks

[summer roost]

depends. co-ops can be 6 months.

[white relic]

internship here basically just means anything you do that isn't full time permanent employment and isn't temp work

[jagged forge]

45k for 2 months is wild

[white relic]

salaries are usually still quoted "as if" for a full year of work

[true harness]

nah, 45k a year, then multiply by 1/6. ^. also in many cases you'll actually be hourly, but it's just converted to a salary

[summer roost]

we're normalizing the pay to the amount you would get paid if the internship were a year long.

since that lets you compare the pay to what a full-time salary would be.

[jagged forge]

ah the contract in an internship here would just show eg. $500/month and if you're in a graduation internship then the total amount is also fixed. E.g you planned 6 months, but went 2 months extra then 2 months nothing

[summer roost]

sure - and the internships I did were all hourly rather than salary, so it was $22/hour or the like. But that makes comparison hard.

[true harness]

also, i've been using 48 work weeks a year to convert from hourly to salary, is that somewhat accurate

[white relic]

eh... only if your salaried worker doesn't get paid leave I guess?

depends on why you want to convert but typically companies just use 2080 hours (40 x 52) afaik

[true harness]

huh. so i've been inflating my hourly wages 😔

[spark cobalt]

Hm yeah PTO

[near ocean]

Where? Asking for a friend, I am that friend

[spark cobalt]

Ask recursive

[smoky quest]

!rule 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[near ocean]

🙊

[smoky quest]

But yeah, entry level market is not as low as one may think

[near ocean]

Is this fintech? Cant imagine anything else paying this much

[smoky quest]

nope. regular tech

[true harness]

what if recursive works at that company i quoted 👀

[mortal wedge]

I applied to a job that's paying $170k, but that's a mid/senior position 130k for an internship is nuts

[near ocean]

Reminds me of an article i read recently about a google investor mailing the CEO asking why everyone's getting paid 50%+ more than competitors and to cut that shit out

[smoky quest]

it's difficult to cut out an investor, although not impossible

[near ocean]

Seems shortsighted to cut pay and layoff people but if investors start pulling out it might be an even bigger problem
Especially when they only look at a couple figures at the bottom of a financial report once a year
Awkward time to be graduating for sure lol

[smoky quest]

it's also a growth vs value.
When money is cheap, there are strong incentives to hire like crazy as to take over the market. Any new headcount would participate to further the growth.
When money is expensive like today, then they have to be a lot more conservative and the valuation is based on the more fundamental aspects (ie. do they make money)

but yeah, I feel for the new entrants

[near ocean]

Do you think hiring is harder than start of/mid pandemic now?

[summer roost]

Awkward time to be graduating for sure lol
I graduated during the great recession - I assure you, it could be much worse.

[smoky quest]

I haven't really had a problem either way. When you can offer some interesting work with a sensible compensation package, things are easier

If anything, seniors were a bit more scarce during the pandemic

[near ocean]

Weird flex but i'll take it as a positive assuming things dont turn that way again

[summer roost]

I expect it'll be easier to hire seniors now, now that Meta and Google and Amazon aren't sucking them all up 😄

[summer roost]

not a flex, really - just that a few companies trimming some fat is nowhere near the worst time to graduate, compared to the number of companies that totally folded during our last major recession

it's probably worse to graduate now than in 2018 or 2019, but nowhere near as bad as graduating in 2008 or 2009

[smoky quest]

yeah, 2008 was pretty grim

and still not as bad as the dotcom crash from what I gather

[summer roost]

yeah.

[smoky quest]

Things were so bad that tons of people had to completely convert and leave the field

[near ocean]

For juniors, do we tough it out wherever we have work now or do we stick with the plan of 1-3 year tenures

This is really messing up my 5 year plan lmao

[summer roost]

I don't think it changes much, beyond that now you need to consider the longterm health of a company that you switch to (which, admittedly, can be hard to judge from the outside).

[smoky quest]

There are still companies hiring. It may take longer but you should be able to find something if you are good

In general:

• Aim for understanding DSA rather than memorizing leetcode
• Make sure your resume stand out
• Be ready to talk about your projects
• Make sure to add everyone and anyone on linkedin
• Aim for substance over form

[summer roost]

layoffs aren't really endemic yet - they're mostly coming from a relatively small number of large public companies with outsized numbers of engineers

that's not to say things won't get worse, but I don't think it's a bad time for a junior to be switching.

I'm probably more bearish on seniors switching at the moment... At least until the slack caused by the twitter/meta/google/amazon layoffs is absorbed.

[gritty rivet]

Right, if you have a good reason to take a new job, take a new job. I wouldn't overthink economic trajectory in making that decision

[delicate bane]

just be careful joining that startup, no?

[summer roost]

I mean, literally always

[smoky quest]

it depends if they are making money or just got some funding.

That said, if it's a crypto one...

[summer roost]

the whole deal with startups is and has always been that they're high risk, high reward.

[near ocean]

I'm careful joining anything right now lol
The main worry is that juniors usually go first and getting into another probationary period is kind of iffy
A week is not enough time to recover

[summer roost]

The main worry is that juniors usually go first
Usually the most recently hired are the first laid off (after poor performers), not the most junior.

[daring root]

is it better to start my tech career in the usa or go to india lol i have good communication skills so i feel like i would stand out in the indian job market, plus i am good at the technical stuff

[true harness]

where are you now? my impression of the job market in india is that it's extremely competitive

[vapid jay]

damn, i needa move to the states

[mortal wedge]

tbf it's also really expensive here

[summer roost]

And there's little social safety net.

We get more in pay in part because our taxes buy less, and in part because goods and services cost more. Like, $24,000/year is a pretty reasonable amount of rent in an average sized city here.

[vapid jay]

anyone got any good resources for studying DSAs for interviews?

[true harness]

cracking the coding interview

[vapid jay]

ty

[spark cobalt]

Grokking better imo.

[true harness]

i'm assuming you're talking about grokking algorithms. my impression was that it didn't have the rigor necessary

[spark cobalt]

You mean the book or course?

[true harness]

book. i didn't know there was a course

[spark cobalt]

The Course > Book

CTCI is a little weird. The entire book with the author only having not even 3 YOE as a developer.

In general, as someone who went through CTCI, it just gives a pretty basic overview on concepts and doesn't delve deep into anything. It's like scratching the surface of an apple and never taking a bite.

It's good as like a briefer or slight introduction, just felt like it doesn't dig deep enough.

[true harness]

where did you find that? it's on its 6th edition so that doesn't really make sense that she'd have less than 3 yoe

[spark cobalt]

Her LinkedIn.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/gaylemcd/

I guess it's not a surprise that the author only ever being junior level can only create a book that is beginner enough for junior developers.

But I think it doesn't really delve into fundamentals, moreso just "here's a problem and an algorithm"

[true harness]

you can draw your own conclusions on it, but

She has worked for Microsoft, Apple, and Google as a software engineer. She spent three years at Google, where she was one of the top interviewers and served on the hiring committee. She interviewed hundreds of candidates in the U.S. and abroad, assessed thousands of candidate interview packets for the hiring committee, and reviewed many more resumes.
whatever ig. it is true that many people recommend the book

[spark cobalt]

Yeah she was a developer at Google from 2005-2008 and then yeah

I'm not trying to say she's not a reliable source. But just pointing out that CTCI is more of a basic interview primer and it is supported by her limited experience more than a decade ago.

[true harness]

isn't that what the question asked though

[spark cobalt]

Kind of. It goes through the algorithms, sure. But doesn't delve deep enough into the DS part imo.

Grokking is kind of opposite though tbf. Their algorithms part aren't the greatest.

I think if you were just looking for a book that has well rounded problems, and very nicely put out solutions. Elements of Programming Interview has got that down (and also has different editions for different languages unlike CTCI). Moreso a resource to just get into it I'm unsure...

Looking through Data Structures Demystified and it does go through DS in depth and in a pretty bite-sizable way. Looks nice.

[snow rapids]

Talking DSA, what do you think about Allen Downey's book?
https://greenteapress.com/wp/data-structures-and-information-retrieval-in-python/

I have mixed feelings about data structures. In the computer science curriculum, it is often used as a weed-out class, and in the technical interview process, it is used as a gatekeeper. In both cases, it plays a disproportionate role in determining who studies computer science and who gets jobs in the field.

[spark cobalt]

My thing with some of these data structure books is books don't actually delve into why certain operations are O(n) or O(1) etc. They just tell you to assume it and you don't give you any information to make educational inferences on time complexity of operations in other data structures.

And then it leads to people memorizing the time complexity chart thing without having a single clue to why it is the way it is. Which is what imo would end up being a barrier to a fluency in DSA.

You can technically do 1000 problems and be great. Or learn the underlying theory and do 50 problems and be great(er imo).

[snow rapids]

Would timing program execution be a good proxy for estimating time complexity?

[spark cobalt]

Issue with Data Structures Demystified is it does explain in depth about each data structure to what I think is great, but it doesn't connect 2 and 2 for the reader on why operations are the time complexities they are. But it gives the knowledge for one to make that connection I guess. Time/Space complexity is mentioned nowhere in that book (I guess one of the faults of the book being literally older than me)

[spark cobalt]

That's not time complexity.

[true harness]

maybe, if you timed many executions with increasing input sizes

[snow rapids]

Yes that's what I thought

[spark cobalt]

Lot of variables you'd have to account for.

[snow rapids]

If you increase input size and observe if execution time stays about the same or grows linearly or exponential etc

Otherwise without this experiment it would be just a theory?

[spark cobalt]

Ah yeah true.

[snow rapids]

I'm new to DSA though.

[true harness]

this isn't really #career-advice anymore, but no. you can prove your algorithm works and has a certain time complexity without even running it

[spark cobalt]

You wouldn't have time in an interview to figure that out basically.

[true harness]

the time complexity?

[spark cobalt]

Like time to figure out time complexity based on runtime.

[true harness]

it doesn't really take that long..

[spark cobalt]

I think there's a communication issue

I thought the guy was talking about like, using like how many milliseconds it takes for a program to run, to figure out a line of fit.

[true harness]

yes. it doesn't take that long. i would probably recommend against it in an interview, but if you really wanted to..

[spark cobalt]

In the context of an interview, probably would

The issue is running the same exact same code won't have the exact same runtime for each run of it.

Super easy to get skewed data (without enough data)

[snow rapids]

I was thinking to use it to develop intuition about it. Not sure. Probably there are better ways

[spark cobalt]

There is.

[snow rapids]

Yeah i thought about that. But of that's the case then big o notation we would be just a theory without real life use

[true harness]

let's move to #algos-and-data-structs

[orchid yoke]

There are some facts about me:

• i know python itself very well, i love it
• i know C/C++ (i know C better than C++)
• im familiar with most of python stdlib and some of python internals
• i have no experience in web, ai, data science, but i know how it works in general
• im interested in low-level stuff (like asm, hardware designing), algorithms (physics simulation, cellular automata) and meta-programming (i mean, compilers, code generators, code optimizers, type-checkers, etc)
• outside of programming i know physics, calculus, number theory, probability theory (not entirely of course, but im confident in those areas). I love Olympiad physics and math (i became a prize winner in all-country school physics olympiad)

Who can i work? What are the areas of work where I can apply my skills and where will I be interested?
I would like to become an intern in some company, but it seems to me that positions of interest to me are accepted only with higher education.

[pallid citrus]

I'm at a loss for words, because I can't really describe my frustrations with programming. I take tutorials, finish the tutorials, and then when it comes to designing a project, my mind goes blank, and I can't remember a single thing. I'm not sure where to go / what to do, but has anyone on here experienced this in the past? It's extremely frustrating because i want to become a great programmer.

[smoky quest]

What is your education level?

At this stage, it doesn't seem you have any valuable skill for a company.
You may want to check out https://roadmap.sh/ to see what roles may interest you best and what skills would be required

[smoky quest]

Sounds like you are in tutorial hell.
You should continue to try designing your own project. However do so with much smaller projects. If it's still too daunting, you could ask for help in planning and devising a solution, but you should avoid just going through tutorials

[pallid citrus]

Thanks for the advice, I really appreciate it.

[orchid yoke]

I marked stuff that i know and dont know. There are graphs for "python" and "backend"

[smoky quest]

Nice! It's great way to visualize your path.
If you want to go into backend, you now have a list of things to learn!

Also if you are in HS or college age, a CS degree would be the path of least resistance and most opportunities for your career.

[dense pendant]

started learning python give me some suggestions

[sage parrot]

🥸

[near valve]

good luck

[buoyant seal]

U have pretty much generic at the moment knowledge about all the most core reusable stuff.
But u have zero knowledge specific to any specialization as it was correctly noticed.

U need to learn technologies/ecosystem for some job role u like
Learning best practices related to this job role.
Doing some pet projects in technologies related to desired job role
+U need to finish getting higher education if u did not yet highly preferably

[peak halo]

is your goal to work towards a programming career? what stage of life are you at currently?

[buoyant seal]

In your current shoes with current knowledge and background... Backend development looks like best path for now.
Frontend is quite close too though.

Other software development job roles aren't entry ones or not fitting Python very well

Python related Data science and machine learning requires being good at math stuff

Mobile dev is Java and kotlyn
Desktop development is c++/c#/rust stuff (and Java too)

[orchid yoke]

Im good at math stuff, but i have no experience at DS and ML. Im not very interested in those areas, but i think i can learn it, if i want to

[buoyant seal]

Let me clarify, DS and ML require higher education level of math

[orchid yoke]

Hmm, didnt know that. I thought that is requires some basic calculus, statistics and probability stuff. I know basics of all these areas, isnt is enough?

[near ocean]

A bachelors should be enough to get into the industry but AI/ML especially is increasingly asking for higher qualifications like MS/PhD

[elder forge]

If you are good with math then you should study it at university level. This will open up more jobs with better career opportunities.

[dense pendant]

i have completed b.tech [mech]....i would like to game developer

[buoyant seal]

Anyway, in current shoes I think u can easily dive into any pure software development. Into backend, desktop or mobile development

It should not be hard for u to get into new language at the moment if desired

[orchid yoke]

thanks for the explanations and advice!

[buoyant seal]

There is even option with system/hardware development, Arduino stuff, Embedded development Forgot to mention it

Up to u to choose what u like

[white relic]

It bears mentioning that you do not need to go into data science or ML to succeed in programming. There are a lot of areas you could pursue, some of them require more math or other kinds of education, which is why several people asked about your level of education. It's fine if you don't want to share that, but the advice can be pretty different depending on whether you're in high school or an adult looking to switch careers, so take that into consideration.

[orchid yoke]

Im in university at 2 year of bachelor degree.

[white relic]

In computer science?

[orchid yoke]

Yeah. "Applied math". We are studing math and programming a lot

[orchid yoke]

Is there some roadmap about this direction? I cant find it on https://roadmap.sh/

[white relic]

That site is basically just about web development. I don't find it very good because it is kind of billed as "everything you might need to know" but it's actually quite narrow in focus. There's nothing for people who are interested in robotics, for example.

Apply common sense: if you'd like to do embedded development, look into what courses your uni offers that relate to that, and look for companies that are doing stuff you'd like to get into, and see what they are hiring for.

At least in the US, your sophomore year in a bachelor's program is basically the best time to get an internship.

[buoyant seal]

I don't know, Google.
U can find expected skills at least in sites like indeed.com, or linkedin.
Search Jobs of middle rank for embedded development.

I know at least it is very common in them to have expectations for C++ and C
More rarely i see some other language additions.

Considering raise of Rust, I expect it to replace C at least, and may be C++ too in nearby five-ten years. Probably it will not replace C++ though completly, and that is why Carbon is going to get borned

[buoyant seal]

👆

Oh right, and assembly language is expected for knowing too for hardware guys, regardless of main language I think

[orchid yoke]

Thank you

[buoyant seal]

U a welcome, I would expect embedded guys probably knowing physics i think. Having ability to smolde some electrical stuff.
Building items like Computer Mouse on their own
Or some kind of unusual self made digital Clock

[white relic]

It varies a lot. Much of embedded development is for basically the same hardware as you have in your PC or phone, and uses the same tools and perhaps even the same OS.

[orchid yoke]

(ot) I once designed a processor. It has only one introduction: byte-byte-jump. It was emulated in software (logisim), i didnt created real processor. It was funny

[fringe perch]

@orchid yoke where can I find a clean version of this image? That's a good road map

[vapid jay]

hey guys , is it better to have work experience at the top of the CV? Im thinking of doign work exp , projects then education

[gritty rivet]

https://roadmap.sh

[gritty rivet]

Standards may vary by country but that sounds fine

[delicate bane]

750K, is that a typo or

[smoky quest]

Imagine your CV as an ad for you.
People will read it top to bottom. So organize the content based on what will be the most relevant to them.

If your work experience only contains jobs that aren't relevant (Ex: summer job as a waiter), then there isn't a reason to put it before your education or your projects.
For these reasons, it's common for entry level engineers to put their education first and to migrate it down as they accumulate professional experience and projects

[smoky quest]

You should apply and then tell us 😉
What's the worst that can happen? You get the job

[delicate bane]

its ok. im good.

[vapid jay]

i have good experience , and really good education but i havnt gotten anything back unfortunately. So i am tryign to redo my CV and sell myself better

Thanks for the advice:)

[gritty rivet]

I've heard some companies are posting these meaningless ranges in response to NYC requiring salary ranges for all job postings

[delicate bane]

ohhhhh that would actually make sense! but also defeat the purpose of the legal requirements — talk about loopholes

[buoyant seal]

OHHH!! Thank you man! I was going to build Latex resume too xD Now i have example for this.

Praise documentation as a code. XeLatex for the win

[vapid jay]

and what will other portfolio websites do

[buoyant seal]

Falling to find a question, if u don't mind, rephrase it

[vapid jay]

Nvm

[hearty island]

nvm my recruiter blocked me 😦

oh nvm my linkedin is broken

[mortal wedge]

Damn im definitely interested now

[near ocean]

HFT moment

[mortal wedge]

Recruiters will basically never block you. You're a potential lead and you may pass along leads, their income is based on the number and quality of leads they have

[hearty island]

yeah it was just linkedin being weird

[mortal wedge]

If it helps it's being weird rn for me too

[hearty island]

it's weird because i applied for the role on the company website that they told me to and then it doesn't show that i applied

but i can't call my recruiter bc she's gone for a couple days so i'll call her after thanksgiving

[near ocean]

Opinions on schemes like this one?
https://www.wiley.com/edge/alumni-pro/
I've always seen them as things to avoid, anyone have personal experience with them?

[smoky quest]

sounds like a recruitment agency with extra steps?
Why not cut the middleman?

[floral elk]

Should I tell potential employers I spent only 2 years to get my undergrad?

What I mean to say is - should I advertise it? Obviously, I'm not going to lie - if the employer does the math or asks I'll be open and honest. But should I lead with it?
I'll have completed my B.S. in C.S software engineering in less than 24 months. I've taken anywhere between 24 and 36 credit hours a semester to attain this aggressive track, the majority of my degree I was working full time 40 hours a week. Although this displays my work ethic, which I'm proud of, - I personally feel like this has drawbacks and I'd be better equipped if I simply had more time & experience in my IDE. Let's face it, you can't do what I did without taking shortcuts. There are defiantly a few subjects I'm fuzzy on especially since my days were blurred together at times. As it stands my GPA is 3.5 Everything considered, what/how should I present to employers for the best chance of an interview? Also, given today's economy should I entertain internships and if so should I consider unpaid internships? I'm most interested in ML work.

I'm in Nashville, TN if that helps. 28 years old.

[smoky quest]

The only thing that matters is whether or not you got your BS.
No one care if you got it in 1months or 10 years, as long as you passed the exams and got the BS.

So put the dates on your resume, and whether or not your got the BS. The rest doesn't really matter.

That said, it would be beneficial for you to go back to the topics where you feel shaky on your own time

[smoky quest]

With regards to your internship, it depends where you are at in your education cycle. If you have already graduated, then internships aren't for you anymore and you should aim for a job.

[floral elk]

Thank you for your feedback! It's much appreciated.

[near ocean]

On a scale of 1 to 10 how unethical would it be to go through the expedited interview process and then hit up the client directly

[smoky quest]

It's just not worth it.
You also have to account for:

• They probably have you signed something
• The host company also have some contracts
• If the host company is working with them, they would have no incentive on burning bridges with them
• They won't tell you the details until the end

[floral elk]

7/10 - but it's a double edge sword. The client will think you're sleezy and if they take you they have dirt on you and/or play the same game. If they're the client you would normally want, they won't entertain your advances.

[near ocean]

Sucks cause its apparently access to companies like Nomura (which this was about)
Investment banks 💸💸💸
Might still go through the interview process for practice

[buoyant seal]

Clarify with amount of acquired ECTS in this period. If ECTS will be having value 180 or preferably 240 points, then it would be awesome.

ECTS points are measure how much you really learned
180 are equal to three years bachelor programs
240 are equal to four years bachelor programs

(ECTS are are possible to measure for any higher education within bologna process of education agreement)
(In Europe it goes as European Supplement document to your diploma, which u can get from your university, if they were not mentioned immediately)

[smoky quest]

I doubt you can't achieve the same by going through their career page

[near ocean]

The problem is that they dont have these positions listed on career pages anywhere and the positions themselves look interesting

[delicate bane]

hmm interesting. ive never heard of ECTS before. interesting concept in europe

[spark cobalt]

Generally shouldn't hurt to go through recruiter because they want you to succeed (as it benefits them if you do.) Many will give you insights on the interview process etc.

One was straight up like "Oh yeah they're probably gonna ask about OOP and give 1-2 easy LC questions, just make sure you know about it." The interview ended up being exactly that.

[near ocean]

the problem is what comes after succeeding
you'll technically be an employee of the recruitment company for at least 12 months,
they'll take a percentage of your pay
the position might not become permanent in the end
leaving the program earlier probably comes with fines

I've had like 2 positions in the past 12 months and I just started my career, might just be me but this feels way too long

[spark cobalt]

Ohh those companies. Yeah those were red flags for me and I never went down that path.

[near ocean]

also i currently make average pay for software dev in london so if they cant go 20% over that i dont think i'll even look at the contract

[spark cobalt]

That does bring me to the question. Is Accenture the exact same model? I see so many new grads working for Accenture as SWE

[near ocean]

I was told to avoid accenture for this exact reason

[buoyant seal]

European Supplement is acceptable even in Canada to verify diploma in their services xD

[spark cobalt]

I got a lot of emails from them that's for sure. Super pushy = tread carefully.

Yeah everyone on Reddit claiming they worked there are saying it's all bad. And probably any company following the same structure will have the same faults.

It looks like they started off good and then got twisted. Redditors working there from 10+ years ago were all saying that Accenture is what they promised. But everything recent is like

[smoky quest]

That doesn't change anything.
If that req is reserved for that company, they are unlikely to bypass them and hand it over to you.

[spark cobalt]

Final pro-tip: The companies you're hired out to are not allowed to TRY to hire you away from Accenture i.e. ask if you want to leave Accenture and come work for them. However they are allowed to hire you if you approach them. Loads of people leave Accenture this way. Could be a good exit strategy after a few years.

Read this on one of the posts. It's from 10 years ago, but still, if this is still true now, going directly is probably better. (From Accenture, not the same company as you I don't think. But if it has a similar model, this might be the same for the company you're looking to)

[vapid jay]

do you need to be specialised to get a junior position or should general python and an understanding of DSA be sufficient?

[smoky quest]

A CS degree is best

[vapid jay]

Yeah, I wish I did a CS degree but I had unsupportive parents and ended up pushed into a job I didn't enjoy for the last decade

[spark cobalt]

Well if you're applying to Riot as a game dev, they'd expect you have some courses/projects relating to game development. Same thing would apply to almost every other part of the industry.

[vapid jay]

so I'm a bit late in life to be going back to uni at 27, ideally I'd be transitioning into software engineering as fast as possible. Hopefully next year.

[vapid jay]

I see, any suggestions on how to find out what area I might enjoy most?

I've been trying to google but nothing seems to give clear defined career paths/roles within software engineering

[spark cobalt]

Going to college helps with that a lot.

[smoky quest]

You could look at https://roadmap.sh/. the most popular entry point for self taught are frontend engineer

[smoky quest]

fyi, I know some folks who did exactly that and are doing great

[vapid jay]

Who did what sorry? went back to uni late in life? or self taught?

[smoky quest]

Went back to uni at around 27 years old (which is not late in life).
But yeah, I also know some self taught people

[vapid jay]

I see I see, so if I were to go down the self-taught route, you'd recommend frontend engineer? so I should probably focus on html, css and js rather than python?

[smoky quest]

Only siths deal in absolute. I am just saying that it's an easier point of entry. Other point of entry aren't necessarily impossible, just more difficult.

[vapid jay]

yeah I don't think uni is an option for me unfortunately 😦 don't want to be entering a junior position at 33

[smoky quest]

And by easier, it's relative. It's going to be like doing life in extreme hardcore mode of difficulty

[smoky quest]

Looks like a part time degree?

[vapid jay]

yeah, I live abroad so I'd need to remain employed throughout my studies

[mortal wedge]

That's always challenging

[delicate bane]

interesting

[delicate bane]

heard a talk from them on their ML stack. very sophisticated. didnt understand half of the services, especially the real time stuff

[vapid jay]

yeah, especially when my day job is a civil engineer... makes it extremely difficult to get home after a 9-10 hour day staring at a computer screen and have the motivation to do another 4-6 hours staring at a computer

[mortal wedge]

I super get that. I'm considering going back to school for a masters since it seems like it's necessary if I want to go further in my field, but ugh not sure I could handle it

[vapid jay]

been doing it for the last few weeks, trying to pick up python as quick as I can... but haven't even started on DSA stuff yet

[vapid jay]

ah fr? there's still some pretty significant barriers?

[mortal wedge]

Yeah. I'm mid-senior level but some senior and almost all staff positions are asking for masters/phd. But that might just be my field, I do software research and development. Some JUNIOR positions are asking for that and it's a bit ??? but whatever

[delicate bane]

life of a researcher 🕯️

jk. i have a masters myself, but that was for the sake of career transitioning

[vapid jay]

ah I suppose it makes a bit more sense for research and development fields

[delicate bane]

[vapid jay]

god it's so confusing just trying to work out what path to follow

[delicate bane]

lots of pros and cons for sure. worth doing some light cost-benefit analysis

[vapid jay]

I've tried for a while, I think my interests generally align more with web development, but I'm not that creative and so I'm not sure about the frontend stuff. Also, my company has an in house digital services team that code custom software in python, so there may be an easier transition if I were to go down the software development route... which also interests me, but I just feel like it'd be harder to do self-employed further down the road

and I love the idea of AI/machine learning, but I also expect that's beyond my reach without a degree

[mortal wedge]

Just want to say, it's exciting but not for everyone. Because in research it's a lot of hard work and refining and developing and your projects are all failures until they suddenly become a success. And you often don't know which until the end of the project.

[vapid jay]

maybe I go down the software dev route for the easier transition, then once I'm working full time and learning best practices I can pick up web dev on the side

[mortal wedge]

Backend web dev is a thing

[vapid jay]

I hope you're well compensated for that self-inflicted torture

[mortal wedge]

I'm not 🙃 But that's why I'm currently looking for jobs, haha.

[vapid jay]

Is that not also done with JS through node these days?

[vapid jay]

become a tutor and let me know when I'm enrolling 😄

[mortal wedge]

Not sure. At our company a lot of our backend is python

[vapid jay]

ah okay... perhaps that's the route I go then... I do like the flexibility of python

[smoky quest]

For backend, there is a lot of java, python, nodejs

[vapid jay]

ah okay, that's good to know... maybe I aim for backend dev longterm then

[mortal wedge]

As for frontend I don't know anything about it other than I want nothing to do with it.

[vapid jay]

hahaha yeah, I enjoy the frontend stuff but I'm pretty bad at the design side, I like formatting it but I just can't seem to make things look as good when I'm doing design + development

[soft urchin]

Guys I've question

Should I go with self study route ( i have pretty good discipline and I love coding so far) or go to college for 4 years. I pretty much can do both since I'm only 21 yo but I don't think any college degree is viable outside of my country

[vapid jay]

go to uni

[mortal wedge]

Short answer? College. Also, what country?

[soft urchin]

I live in Russia

I also want to be out of Russia

[mortal wedge]

It's true that some jobs don't place much merit in degrees from certain countries, but enough people in this day and age don't have that sort of backwards thinking.

[soft urchin]

Like, compared to eu programs our uni's are waaay too outdated

[mortal wedge]

Ooof

[vapid jay]

you could also consider getting a degree through open university? I believe they're typically universally respected, no?

[soft urchin]

Hm, never heard of open uni, lemme Google it quick

[smoky quest]

All the russian engineers I have worked with had strong fundamentals and were great engineers. So I assume their college/university must be doing something right

If you want to emigrate, a degree will also greatly increase your chances

[vapid jay]

alternatively, I think Harvard publishes some of their courses online, I've heard good things about CS50x, I'll likely take it soon

think it's jsut an introduction though as opposed to a degree or anything

[soft urchin]

It's true that they give good foundation, but overall I think that we have too outdated course/tech. Also it's filled with many unnecessary topics

[mortal wedge]

Coursera has a really good DSA course. It was dense but I believe it fully prepared me

[vapid jay]

for learning DSA should I be studying generic DSA or language specific DSA?

[soft urchin]

Also to get into any at least any valuable uni you need to ace exams 290/300 points

[mortal wedge]

Generic is fine imo. Different languages work better for different algorithms

[smoky quest]

Like what topics?

[soft urchin]

@vapid jay yea I tried to take CS50x, now I decided to retreat to basic programming because it wrecked me XD

[delicate bane]

one of my classmates in grad school came from russia. probs one of the smartest guys in our cohort.

[vapid jay]

ah true? how come?

[delicate bane]

fulbright scholar and everything

[soft urchin]

@smoky quest philosophy, physical education, etc.

[smoky quest]

I was expecting answers like communication or accounting as part of the cs degree. I was not expecting philosophy

[soft urchin]

@vapid jay cs50 is possible even for full beginners but it requires MUCH TIME AND EFFORT if you're completely new

[vapid jay]

hmm, wonder whether I should focus on that before completing this 100 day bootcamp thing I'm workign through

[soft urchin]

@smoky quest the subjects may differ tho, but it's true that our Education system is filled with garbage like this

Maybe not on top 1 uni's tho, never heard from them

But then again, trying to enroll in top 1 gonna cost more time and effort than getting a job as a jun lol

@vapid jay you definitely should at least try it

[smoky quest]

main thing for you is to get a degree

[soft urchin]

Even after first week I was able to understand some concepts of CS independent of language

@vapid jay btw is this their site?https://www.open.ac.uk/

[vapid jay]

ye

[soft urchin]

@smoky quest the problem is that anything out of top uni's of my country is pretty useless, and I have no motivation spending 4 years on something like that

@vapid jay hmm I'm pretty interested in it now. Are they really respected?

[spark cobalt]

Never heard of it till today.

[vapid jay]

not sure, haven't looked into it enough. Heard rumours it is though

[smoky quest]

lack of a degree will be doing life like in extreme hardcore difficulty.

For context, for entry level jobs, I can get 3-4 digit applicants in a very short time. 99.99% of them with degrees, internships and projects. What will be your plan to stand out and get to the top of the pile?

[spark cobalt]

The short answer is you almost certainly can't. So many extreme overachievers in America...

[vapid jay]

would you say rn at beginner stage I should be focusing on DSA or learning a language?

[spark cobalt]

Learning basic programming concepts through a general purpose language.

[smoky quest]

I would recommend to focus on defining your goal and then walking backward from it

[soft urchin]

@smoky quest That's a good question. I also plan to take internship and build projects. The thing is, there are not as much competition in Russia as in US I think. My main plan is to build projects and bullshit my way to internship somehow

[smoky quest]

There are a few folks from Russia around. They may be able to chime in more on that.

One note though is that internships are primarily aimed at students as they don't know what is the world of the enterprise.
Self taught people have less of a need and thus are excluded a lot from these programs

[soft urchin]

I don't think it would be harmful to also lie(a little) on my resume

[smoky quest]

It will definitely be harmful.
There is no need to lie

[vapid jay]

depends if you want to keep the job or damage your reputation irreparably

[true harness]

iirc fix error is from Russia? maybe worth a ping

[soft urchin]

I said a little, means that they won't find out

Well I hope

[true harness]

then what is it going to change. if it doesn't change much, why lie at all

[spark cobalt]

A lot of little lies are super easy to detect from people with decades of experience in this field.

[delicate bane]

DW is writing an essay for us - he is from russia. i am eagerly waiting

[vapid jay]

if they won't find out, there's no value to having it on your CV as it can't be relevant to the role. If they do find out you lied, you'll be detected and likely fired and blacklisted

[smoky quest]

How many interviews have you been through?
The interviewers have talked to hundreds, if not thousands of people. They will spot your lies from a mile away.

[vapid jay]

I may not know much about CS but I hold a senior position in Civil Engineering and every time someone has lied on their CV it has become apparent either at interview stage or within their probationary period. It never ends well.

[soft urchin]

Well that's last resort anyway, I don't consider doing it from the get go ofc

[buoyant seal]

Well, as u said your current country, i can safely intervene and say how was my experience in university and its program.

1. it does not matter that there ispressence of philosophy or physical education, it is a very short additional stuff that can be safely ignored if desired and has less than 1% of a program along with other not important stuff.
2. there is a problem at least in NSTU, that education for software developer in Applied mathematics and Computer science (01.03.02), is quite dissatached from reality.
   They will teach you well though general basics certainly, and it is veeeeeeery heavy on math and its every application with programming... so kind of fitting program to become Data Scientist with even having just bachelor degree... if being digilant, but for general CS you would have to learn some stuff on your own.
   (Specifically Code Architecture/Design patterns are not present in any way, as well as Git version controlling for example, or no projects trying to publish your own libraries into open source)
   (Lack of System Design And Analysis)
   (No Unit testing or any other testing strategies)

[smoky quest]

It's just not worth it. You could put the same amount of effort into a project or learning something and get a better ROI

[soft urchin]

But if it's gets hotter in the world, I might need to move a little faster

@buoyant seal yea I heard that they teach math very well

Thank you for such detailed response

[mortal wedge]

Version control is that like dropbox or google docs

Testing is when the end user breaks it in prod, right?
/s

[buoyant seal]

@soft urchin yup, and besides math they actually teach some CS
I had... in C++ learning OOP/inheritence/polymorphism
Data structures and Algorithms were very excellent
We learned SQL in a good way
We learned low-level parallel programming
We learned assembly language
building our own compiler
Computer Graphics, i even made simple minecraft like game xD
building simple server based web site
Learning metrics to evaluate size of coding projects

During university i got exposed to 2 years of C++, 2 years of C# (just because everyone used it from 3d year xD), at least a year of Python (just because everyone did in it in Master's degree)
Assembly, Fortran(kind of outdated shit), Prolog(outdated shit as well)

@soft urchin We learned Linux, full dive into its console world, and evenwere writing C programs in GCC right at its servers, with learning Linux.. subprocessing stuff in the process
We had learning networking, with using even fun simulators for this

@soft urchin We were also having very low-level learning of some data types, and how CPU works. And were also building simple networked applications through sockets. It was kind of fun making simple chat applications that was able to find another client automaticallly through local network due to usage of ip broadcasting stuff

So... even if CS was not in priority... we had some CS specific stuff
Besides that we were programming quite a lot of math oriented stuff

So -> You will learn to learn on your own at least during degree, and that's most important xD

[soft urchin]

Sounds great, might consider that. Tho what about exams

[honest escarp]

can you answer this question please.

[soft urchin]

Like, afaik it requires math, CS obviously, and physics(maybe?)

[honest escarp]

The Simulated Annealing algorithm requires that the ____ parameter decreases over time, according to an assigned schedule.

[buoyant seal]

i got through "ЕГЭ" results, for applied mathematics faculty you need at least 220, or better having 250 score for guaranteed passing.

(Math, and Russian language is obligatory) + (Informatics(CS) or Physics at your choice one out of two)
I went with Math+Rus+CS

There is also "АВТФ" Faculty which is CS oriented with more to hardware side in addition

[soft urchin]

I have 85 score at Russian, considering I like math it will be less challenging at least, what about CS exam, is it hard?

[buoyant seal]

i have found it very simple to score 76 mark. You can highly likely brainlessly train yourself to get even higher score like 90 or something.
There was only one problem that nothing of its material was teached in school. We started learning it only when applied for its Exam.
if u will start earlier training for it, u a very likely to get very high score

[buoyant seal]

Anyway, it was twice easier than Math exam to my taste at least

[smoky quest]

Hi! This has nothing to do with the purpose of this channel. You may want to check #❓｜how-to-get-help

[soft urchin]

Ok. I have now that opportunity in mind too. But what if I won't be able to enroll, it is possible to learn what's taught at uni yourself right?

I'm in pretty unstable situation in life rn

[mortal wedge]

The problem isn't whether you can learn on your own, it's proving to employers that you have the knowledge

[buoyant seal]

Well, in Russia people check for your higher education too during your employment. And considering veeeeeeeeeeeeery high overflow from online courses in our country... you get the idea how it will be more complicated going without it.
Some people certainly manage to make their way though, but it is having less chances route. At least i was familiar with some frontend dev who managed to get his foot... he ruined my impression about frontend devs being devs heavily though.

Although everything is under question how Russian market it is at the moment, you know, many IT ran away from country... so perhaps some options are present.

[soft urchin]

I get you. Well it is better to know concepts then to not independent of their view.

[buoyant seal]

Anyway, u have a chance for free higher education, that's kind of awesome.
During application there is always an option to go to... Airjet building Faculty... in NSTU everyone with even 150 score is accepted in it... but that will be kind of useless education u know xD Technically still STEM though.

[soft urchin]

@buoyant seal yeah I was thinking about it. Like it's unknown situation. From one side, many experienced devs GTFO even since March, on other hand, many course graduates are coming

Whats also sad is that IT field/other jobs pay gap is so high, many people come simply because of money. Which is understandable, but I don't think it's good for long run

[buoyant seal]

Plus NSTU gives even living place for students from other towns

[buoyant seal]

i saw somewhere honest statistics about conversion rates from courses to specialists. 22 out of 500 enrolled into courses people manage to get jobs and becoming specialists xD
Some company conversed its own internal workers from IT desk support into software dev with their courses in this way and published results

[soft urchin]

I

[pallid citrus]

@orchid yoke do you mind DMing me that flow chart of learning python? That’s really cool

[soft urchin]

I didn't think it was that low

@buoyant seal aside from meme courses like skillbox, is it really that bad?

Tbh I think that only reliable way to get a job in our current market is networking really hard

[buoyant seal]

Well, according to gathered rumours... You get people without experience as mentors, who are pretty much doing their lections just so that you would shut up. It is very common at least in proprietary organizations regarding that.
And i know at least one colleague who became actually skillbox mentor too after getting fired from our job xD

I saw Yandex courses are kind of detailed in programs, but i have bad impressions about their people too... I saw another graduate from this person, and well, yet another problem with soft skills. They think of themselves as star lords, thinking they already know everything.

Bleah.
Anyway, since u know English, u can get better chances with learning from Udemy courses or its alternatives.
Because authors publish on their own to this resource, they get honest scoring and reviews from other people.
Very high set of submitted courses make stuff very competion-like so that best courses will be there.
And all courses are quite cheap too (all within 100$ price)

[soft urchin]

I wanted to go with Udemy, but since well, you know, we are blocked from the world, I went as far as pirating some of their courses xd

[buoyant seal]

Besides that, online courses have danger, that u would learn only stuff how to do when material is already processed for you, without learning how to dig problem on your own.
Practice in pet projects or open source besides courses is a must have
Plus with learning through courses, they aren't really teaching generic CS stuff, which you need to learn too xD

When u survive in university, u become able to learn stuff on your own (or getting kicked out of uni otherwise)

[soft urchin]

That's my thoughts too, I always loved to dig for info by myself, and I heard that they teach ONLY language specifics, no math, no CS, no foundation whatsoever

[buoyant seal]

if u will be able to make correct plan for learning, and making projects awesome enough to impress people, surely you can learn on your own. But that's kind of you know... very rare for people to have necessary will to go forward on their own like that for years+ time, choosing correct path without having any guidance, and to pass through first employment problems. Chances are quite dim even if not zero.

University gives initial kick to make you learning. After university learning on your own is peace of cake. + Proof to your employees, that u are possibly good invement

[soft urchin]

Well the issue with their inflated ego is that they have no idea about whole IT world even after courses. The more you know, the less you think you know, AND vice versa

[buoyant seal]

yeah, and they are often get stuck at the peak of believing they know everything. Super arrogance, and believe they already deserve 300k/sec salary

[soft urchin]

Well that's what Ive been doing for past month. I focused on learning on my own, but every day. I started by little(20 mins a day) and add +6mins each day to eventually achieve 4 hours/day. Do you think it should suffice?

[soft urchin]

Nanosec*

[buoyant seal]

It is a good start. Ideally it would be more though. People learn for 8 hours just from doing their jobs. And especially dedicated developers even go to spend their free time besides work to educate themselves further. Spending weekends/evenings.
Basically spending all possible time, as possible as long as not going mental xD Resting enough to not go crazy

Идеальный Программист, книга от Роберт Мартин(Clean Code by Robert martin) says stuff regarding those ethics

[soft urchin]

@buoyant seal yeah I thought about that too. After I will go stable 4h/day I will think on expanding this time even further

Main target is to do it every single day

@buoyant seal Ive heard about this book from Sergey Nemchinskiy

[buoyant seal]

Regardless of which developer u a going to be, highly recommending reading Совершенный Код by McConnel (Code Complete by McConnel), very good book having majority of stuff that new person to CS needs.

it has 32+ chapters, explaining different strategies to programming, including OOP/SOLID stuff, how to debug, how to test code, what to aim for in qualities, how to fight code complexity, how to write readable code for other devs, how even to speak with managers!

Very powerful intro book regarding coding architecture in any aspects

plus it recommends other stuff to read xD

[buoyant seal]

there should be healthy amount of learned theory and practice.

[soft urchin]

Sounds neat! Btw is there a way to solidify knowledge from the books? Like, I don't read that much, but I would like to learn how to do it effectively

[buoyant seal]

obviously, the only way is to practice, in pet projects xD Applying stuff at practice.

[soft urchin]

@buoyant seal right now I do mooc.fi Python. They give you theory and right after it exercises

[buoyant seal]

Plus i read books in large quantity and they can be often enough overlapping in content, that gets me solidifying knowledge too

Or i need to know some book material to start learning another book. So kind of everything is connected

[soft urchin]

Can I dm you about some country - specific stuff?

[buoyant seal]

Probably quite important reading knowledge for beginners first, learning basics. Knowing basics/foundation you understand better more advanced material. There is need in carefullly choosing which book to read next

[buoyant seal]

well, i guess, sure.

[soft urchin]

@buoyant seal you're there?👀

[buoyant seal]

accepted

[elfin marsh]

is python the best beginner language ?

[buoyant seal]

arguably and not always, but considering that we are in Python server, we can be patriotic and biased here in saying yes xD

[elfin marsh]

i'm struggling to understand loops and functions and was wondering if i should stick to python or go for something easier like html css etc (not good in math and logic but have to bear with it for a career in ui/ux degree program not even sure why ui/ux needs coding in python but yeah)

i'm willing to put up with the struggle for 1 module of programming lol.

[buoyant seal]

there is nothing easier than python to learn basic concepts like that. html/css is not programming language in the first place, so it would not give you the result u wish to gain

[buoyant seal]

perhaps the problem u have in having wrong resources to learn that, try Head First out of curiosity
https://target.scene7.com/is/image/Target/GUEST_3522ba36-f8a8-4cdf-887b-08564b62a87f?wid=488&hei=488&fmt=pjpeg

Awesome, third edition arrived!

wait, not arrived 😦 in october 2023 is expected. all right, go for 2nd edition

[elfin marsh]

cool let me check out that material. I can solve easier questions .. but how do u get good/better in handling questions .

[buoyant seal]

having good learning resources/teachers, getting education in school and in university.
working with stuff at practice in pet projects and open source

[elfin marsh]

hmm building projects u mean

[spark cobalt]

Pre release for the 3rd edition not out yet 😦

Can't see what's inside

[elfin marsh]

thanks a lot !

[buoyant seal]

Java got already released new one 🙂 Time to mod minecraft!

[spark cobalt]

[spark cobalt]

Are there pre-releases you want btw? I can send some over

[buoyant seal]

what are you having? 🙂
http://i.imgur.com/Y2VuYiY.gif (source: https://youtu.be/N9qYF9DZPdw)

[spark cobalt]

Depends on what you want

I have dozens of 2023 release books

At least for Python, only have 14 of them.

Lmk DW if you want any. You helped me a lot so happy to return the favor 🙂. Just assume I have all of them.

[delicate bane]

[smoky quest]

is it a book under a free license?

[spark cobalt]

Just checked. It isn't. Deleted 🙂

[empty scaffold]

Hi

[flat elk]

Hi

[delicate bane]

wow this runs counter to the layoff narrative in tech — which is good imho https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/who-is-hiring-2022/

theres a list of 750 companies hiring for all sorts of roles if peeps are looking for jobs. seems more for experienced folks btw.

[buoyant seal]

Some companies sink, other raise xD

[hearty island]

i just had an interview i doubt i made it through

it was for product management

it wasn't even a recruiter interviewing me

[near ocean]

Well yea, a recruiter would put you in front of an interviewer, not interview you themselves

[hearty island]

no i mean it wasn't HR interviewing me

it was some full time employee

[near ocean]

HR usually is the last to talk to you

[gritty rivet]

Or the first, or HR doesn't exist, it really varies widely by company in my experience

[velvet raptor]

hello

我来自中国

[turbid iris]

I am a full-stack developer working with Python, Django, Flask and scraping libraries.
Seeking for a interesting stuff in this field.

[spark cobalt]

The economy hasn't gotten really fucked up yet. This is just the beginning

[gilded valley]

it doesn't really run counter to that narrative at all
you would still expect companies to be hiring purely due to churn and needing to continue ops

[delicate bane]

these are my expectations. theres always more nuance to a conversation but some peeps like to only think in binary. jk

[leaden jasper]

@steep stratus This is not the appropriate channel to share your project.

[dense mesa]

Interest swap rates have basically set it in stone for the next few years

[delicate bane]

~~youre also most likely right. actually a number of things could happen as a result of this but it is all speculation ~~

[loud hamlet]

Guys, I've managed to get accepted into a big tech company for a year-long internship. Now i need to decide what field (team) i want to work with: Cloud, AI, DevOps, Linux, Tech sales etc. Do you guys have any recommendations? My main goal is to have a financially prosperous career in tech, with many opportunities in the forthcoming years

[delicate bane]

a year-long? do you get to pick 2 or 3 rotations? maybe to see what you like?

[near ocean]

As an intern would you not get the opportunity to work in multiple teams?

[spark cobalt]

Cloud and AI probably. But a prosperous career is also dependant on if you'll actually enjoy the work you're doing.

Yeah should ask if you can try each of the fields out.

[loud hamlet]

well its not technically an intern, its an industrial placement in technology and yes i think i do have the option to change teams, but going forward i need to make a choice starting out

[spark cobalt]

You'd generally make more out of something you enjoy than something you don't.

[near ocean]

Sales people would like a word

[spark cobalt]

[loud hamlet]

I'm 100% willing to put the work in and sacrifice a lot of time and energy. But im not sure what technology i'll like since im fairly novice so rn im basing it of finances

[spark cobalt]

Careers last for decades.

[near ocean]

I dont think i've ever met a happy, content sales guy, except for when theyre rolling in their money pit
Alas, it is temporary and fleeting

[delicate bane]

sales engineers tend to be more happy than traditional sales guys.

[loud hamlet]

i like creating and innovation, the concept of coming up of building is appealing to me, which is why i don't wanna do something like IT Admin

[spark cobalt]

Finance also very influenced by your mental and physical well-being. Work your ass off, sure. But working your ass off on something you don't enjoy when you could've done something you do is kinda depressing.

SWE will get you paid well. Just focus on what you wanna do.

[delicate bane]

sounds like you should explore a software dev rotation if possible. maybe ai too

[spark cobalt]

You also matter too. Money is secondary.

[near ocean]

What industry is this company in if you dont mind sharing

[loud hamlet]

the company is IBM

[loud hamlet]

I agree completely. But I can't know what I'll like till I try it. i guess i got to take a Lil gamble

[delicate bane]

ah. i have a negative comment(s) about one of their products/services that i have to work with at work but thats off-topic here

[near ocean]

Congrats, my wild, uninformed guess would be to check out AI but that probably comes with advanced degree blocks

[loud hamlet]

hahaaha. regardless of how they are today, you gotta give them credit for their history. the first PC, the AI breakthrough with Deepblue, the first Smart Phone Simon, and their involvement with NFSNET

[loud hamlet]

I'll do some more research into AI. Thank you

[delicate bane]

that is true. good luck dude. and yeah like mariosis said, it can tough to go farther up in AI without an advanced degree, so something to take into account.

[loud hamlet]

after successful completion of this placement year, i'll have the opportunity to progress onto a degree apprenticeship (basically an agreement with the university and the organisation, where i work 4days a week and go to university 2x, and my assignments/projects are based of those i do in the workplace). My fault for not clarifying.

also @delicate bane i drink Nescafe. Do you think any less of me now 😌

[spark cobalt]

Coffee sucks. Save yourself from caffeine addiction.

[delicate bane]

sounds like a great deal! just be aware that by advanced degree, that is typically higher than bachelors (like masters or phd)

[loud hamlet]

thanks, i'll look futher into that

[delicate bane]

but you could probably get the company to possibly pay for that too tbh

[spark cobalt]

IBM definitely sponsors.

[loud hamlet]

its a great system her in the UK. not only do they cover your university fees but they also pay you a salary e.g. £20,000. But its VERYY competitive which is why i applied for the slightly easier role for now

[delicate bane]

thats awesome!

[loud hamlet]

yeah its amazing. My brother is doing one as an account manager in a fintech company, he likes it

but unfortunately there isn't the option to undergo the 'Bootcamp' route in the UK. so you kinda need a degree

[proud plank]

does it matter if or how often you repeated a highschool grade when you want to work as a software engineer later

[loud hamlet]

nah just dont mention it.

[spark cobalt]

Often not. Since people don't look at your HS, but moreso your college.

Yeah generally you wouldn't put your high school in your resume to begin with.

[loud hamlet]

highly unlikely, but if they ask you can always use the excuses. i moved to the US from another country, I took a gap year, i had to take care of my parents.

[near ocean]

lying might not be the best thing to do, just be honest, usually works out much better

[loud hamlet]

i'll be honest. whenever i apply to jobs i check Bisexual to increase my chance. Ik its not the best thing to do but its not harmful

[spark cobalt]

Honestly those are kind of scams. How are you going to eliminate discrimination if you profile your candidates for their race, sexuality, gender, etc. Me when quotas.

Just don't lie.

[near ocean]

ngl i pick "other" as often as I can, i know they cant legally discriminate but i also know that they do

[true harness]

^ i just opt out of everything as much as possible

[loud hamlet]

i hate the fact that stuff like ethnicity and race affect your chances of getting a job. I always do the best to look as diverse as possible (depending on the company) i'll say im Muslim, Bi and stuff to increase my chances

[spark cobalt]

My name kind of screams "okay this guy is an Asian male, 99% probably straight" and I'm like fuck it whatever

[true harness]

i think most ATS would not display your name?

[spark cobalt]

Uhh my GitHub and LinkedIn all have my name on it.

[near ocean]

a person is going to come across your name/face at some point, theres no escaping it

[spark cobalt]

Yep

[loud hamlet]

religion, sexuality and gender are fluid nowadays, so they can't determine anything based on your face

I'm middle eastern but i look v white, yet no one has ever questioned me being muslim or anything

[near ocean]

religion and gender are kinda iffy, good luck trying to convince someone youre a muslim woman if you look like the whitest man alive

its a game and the only option is not to play it, pick "Other" or "Prefer not to say" everywhere

[spark cobalt]

New definition of gender kinda doesn't give a fuck

[loud hamlet]

😂😂true. but they can't be like 'Prove you're gay' or say 'Prove you're muslim'

[spark cobalt]

Yeah that definitely crosses the line

[true harness]

no, but they can just reject you

[near ocean]

I mean you can argue with them all you like, youre still gonna get ghosted

[spark cobalt]

If you're playing the system without a job, who knows if you're gonna play the system when on the job.

[marsh wind]

depends on where lol

[loud hamlet]

from my personal experience, I have more success in applications where I make myself as diverse as possible. this isn't the case for all companies (defence contractors, finance, government agencies) but for most tech companies its beneficial

[marsh wind]

they ain't supposed to ask if you are married and how many kids you have but in some... regions they very well might

[true harness]

how do you even measure that though

[near ocean]

spreadsheet of applications sent/responses, gotta minmax this

[true harness]

right but companies have different needs, they might need your skills more than a different company. you can't draw conclusions on if it's your demographics

[near ocean]

i imagine theyre junior and juniors fit everywhere and i also imagine theyre applying to similar job roles

[true harness]

sure, but you still can't draw conclusions

[gritty rivet]

I've met people of every imaginable age convinced that they can't get a job due to age discrimination. 🤣 It's amazing to me how otherwise technical-minded people care so little about actual data when it comes the social / psychological / political questions

[blazing oar]

What is an oragne boolia?

[near ocean]

Maybe so, but kind of hard to ignore your own lived experience just cause some numbers say so

[loud hamlet]

was getting rejected alot. kept my resume the same and only made changes to the selected religion, sexuality etc. started getting rejected less. definitely not no conclusive study but it was enough to convince me

[gritty rivet]

In what universe is it appropriate to hint at your religion or sexuality on your resume in 2022?

[loud hamlet]

unfortunately, there are whole pages where they ask this bullshit during the application process.

ive applied for over a handful of jobs and the majority of them included a section for that

[spark cobalt]

I think he means during the like online application process where they ask you your gender, disability, veteran status, etc.

[loud hamlet]

yes. exactly that

[spark cobalt]

I don't think there's a religion section. At least I haven't seen one. Pretty sure it's an overexaggeration on our part.

[loud hamlet]

there is for the ones ive seen

[spark cobalt]

I've applied to thousands of jobs. And I never seen it. Granted I only applied within US, are you from somewhere else?

[loud hamlet]

yeah UK

maybe in those liberal places like LA its more common also

[spark cobalt]

Silicon Valley can be considered a "liberal place" as well as every other tech hotspot in the US.

[true harness]

sure, though a lot of that is probably confirmation bias. it's simply not scientific to draw conclusions

[spark cobalt]

But I applied to all around the nation and never seen it. Don't think it's a standard in America as it may be in the UK.

[vapid jay]

I never had to provide sexual orientation or religion during interview applications

[spark cobalt]

Ive seen a lot of sexual orientation. But it's definitely not the norm.

[vapid jay]

Infact, the fact they’re asking would raise some fairly big concerns as it shouldn’t be relevant to any job application

[spark cobalt]

This entire race, sex, veteran status, disability, shit shouldn't be relevant to any job application.

[true harness]

the idea is to promote diversity. if you have two equal applicants, and one would improve diversity, you would take that applicant.

additionally, in the US, companies are literally required to ask for that info

[near ocean]

That sounds like discrimination

[vapid jay]

Discrimination tbh

[spark cobalt]

That would literally be hiring someone based on race or something.

[true harness]

yes, it is discrimination, how else would you pick between candidates

[spark cobalt]

You're choosing someone on the premise of race.

Find some other measure?

[vapid jay]

I mean i can’t think of a situation where two candidates would ever be “equal”

[gritty rivet]

Legally it's not relevant. They have to collect the data but must not consider it in the hiring process. In any responsible company that data is not provided to the hiring manager etc. Not saying it doesn't happen, but if it does it's illegal

Certainly in the US, I don't know the UK to be different

[vapid jay]

They may have the same knowledge/experience, etc, but i highly doubt they have the same work ethic, attitude, social skills, etc

[spark cobalt]

They most likely won't have the same knowledge/experience. Almost certainly tbh.

[near ocean]

Its illegal in the UK too and a huge payout if you can prove it, but next to impossible

[spark cobalt]

People will have worked in departments more relevant to the job description, more years using certain technologies, worked in companies that do similar things, etc.

To match all of that is

[vapid jay]

Agreed, but i was trying to demonstrate that even if they did, there’s so many other factors that directly affect their ability to perform in the role that would differentiate them and would be infinitely more important than the colour of their skin

[near ocean]

Even if they dont collect the data, they'll still see your face, read your name, hear your voice, if the interviewer is racist they might not pick you for many reasons

[spark cobalt]

Yep. It's mostly just about the preliminary online application part.

[delicate bane]

this

that info is usually just collected in some HR IT system that nobody can ever access except one person

and when the HR system goes down, they are one of the only few that know how to fix it

[gritty rivet]

Right but anecdotes aside there is plenty of actual data and it overwhelmingly shows that "reverse discrimination" isn't a thing and it's still whites who benefit from the bias overall, eg. https://www.marketplace.org/2021/08/03/new-research-shows-racial-discrimination-in-hiring-is-still-happening-at-the-earliest-stages/amp/

[spark cobalt]

@loud hamlet Also in general, the longer you apply, the more you get responses over time. There's a lot of things unscientific about your conclusion.

[delicate bane]

but then they are out on PTO so everyone has to wait. not that im speaking from personal exp or anything

[delicate bane]

generally your later apps are more successful than your earlier ones

[spark cobalt]

Yep.

[vapid jay]

I mean that looks like a fairly flawed study straight off the bat

[spark cobalt]

And the conclusion assumes that companies will immediately respond at the exact same time.

Also doesn't account for economic changes, improvements in resume/portfolio/projects, etc.

[delicate bane]

bro i remember when i was applying, there were some companies that took 8 months to get back to me...with an automated email too

[spark cobalt]

Race in America is just a difficult topic. One can argue that affirmative action is making employers think that a white candidate and a black candidate from a prestigious college is not the same because the application process was easier for one candidate.

We'll never know because Americans care more about political rhetoric than getting things right.

[vapid jay]

The study didn’t compare white and black people, it compared success rate of “applications with distinctively Black names”. That’s a flawed study. What constitutes a “black name”?

[jovial coyote]

Goldman?

[spark cobalt]

I'm still getting job responses after not applying for over 2 months.

[near ocean]

Yea im not disagreeing, but negative experiences stick with you longer, if you've ever applied somewhere clicked male for gender and the application instantly ends for you, you can imagine it sticks with you lmao

[delicate bane]

personally, i would avoid goldman. but thats me. i heard how they treat their tech peeps. if youre not finance, youre part of the other.

[near ocean]

Yes, theres disproportionate demographics in tech but maybe diversity hires arent the solution, idk

[spark cobalt]

There's an obvious overrepresentation of Asians more than whites, at least in America.

[gritty rivet]

This is despite racial discrimination, not because of it

[spark cobalt]

I'm not saying it's because of anything. Just saying.

Didn't intend to imply anything.

[vapid jay]

And so there should be when you consider that asian culture generally celebrates success far more than american society. It makes absolute sense. if people were rallying for whites to be hired over asians because they’re underrepresented, everyone would be throwing fits

[spark cobalt]

This is unscientific.

[delicate bane]

i dont think most companies explicitly do diversity hires though. if they do, i feel that its a very, very small percentage of hiring managers. they are more likely to look for "oh you dont have 5 years of exp with our specific tech stack? goodbye"

clownery

[spark cobalt]

Asians are also generally much wealthier and doesn't face socioeconomic issues to the extent of other minorities. You're pulling a causation fallacy.

[vapid jay]

Unscientific, sure, but look at asian school culture…. The popular kids are the intelligent, successful kids. The kids look up to and value intelligence. In western schools, kids typically ridicule and isolate the intelligent children.

(Im white btw, from UK)

[spark cobalt]

How can you assess this is because of culture not because of generational socioeconomic prowess?

[jovial coyote]

What do you have to say about the indians in tech

they are hired a lot

[gritty rivet]

I've personally seen it happen where CEO says to relevant managers "this qualified candidate is a woman and we have no female engineers. Please do what you can to make this work out."

Is this widespread? Maybe

Am I going to conclude that this has anything with the challenges I face (as a male) in getting job interviews? Absolutely not

[vapid jay]

I’m not saying it’s because of culture, i’m saying it is their culture. There are a number of factors that led to that culture, including their socioeconomic prowess

[spark cobalt]

You are also forgetting that you are putting the top crop of this culture (which is the general trend for immigrants) and comparing it to your society's "average."

[vapid jay]

I’ve worked for two employers that did the same. One asserted a disproportionate percentage of promotions HAD to be female. The other refused to look at white male CVs for a position in the name of diversity

[gritty rivet]

The latter example is fundamentally different and blatantly illegal. All available evidence suggests it is pretty rare unless you've seen studies I haven't

[delicate bane]

thats interesting but def has not been my experience (really the opposite). but i also agree with you

[vapid jay]

I’ve worked for 3 companies, that’s a 66.6% rate from my personal experience. One of the discriminatory companies was the industry leader worldwide. A multi billion dollar multinational conglomerate. It’s not as rare as you might hope.

[spark cobalt]

It's hard to say.

So many other parts of our society embrace this kind of discrimination or bias for underrepresented populations in engineering.

GirlsWhoCode and a bunch of other organizations that are aimed at teaching females specifically, or to help them with job searching, etc.

Affirmative action within colleges that give bias for female engineers over male engineers for colleges to have increased diversity.

If the rest of people are embracing this kind of bias, I don't think it's that farfetched to assume that many companies aim to have this bias. Whether you call it discrimination, or aiming for more diversity.

One side will call it discrimination, the other side will call it promoting diversity. But whatever it is and whatever it's called, to say that the action is happening in the first place isn't something we should be surprised about ig.

Trying to use language to satisfy both sides is tiring

But I think we can agree that diversity is good for a company. If it's in the company's best interest to have people of more diverse backgrounds to have different kinds of perspectives on the table, would it be so bad?

[delicate bane]

i just dont think its as common as we are making it seem to be. at least in my opinion.

[spark cobalt]

Just a measure of whether giving bias for diversity counts as hiring on race.

[spark cobalt]

Yeah I don't think we'll ever have the transparency to know how frequent this is happening. But I think we can safely assume that it is happening in some places to begin with.

[vapid jay]

diversity is great, yes. but you can't 'promote diversity' without simultaneously discriminating against another group. Why should that group be forced to face discrimination just because more people who look like them entered their chosen field?

[spark cobalt]

At least in my workplace, 95% is Indian. 2.5% is white. 2.5% is other Asians.

[gritty rivet]

MenWhoCode should be the name of most CS departments 😉 Despite the fact that the majority of new college grads overall are now women, it's like 20% women for CS

I don't think I'm disagreeing with you per se, definitely am not supporting unfair hiring practices in the name of diversity, but I think that's important context.

[delicate bane]

wow 20%. i think my alma mater was like less than 10%

(for CS)

[graceful mason]

Pretty sure <10% of SE are women

[vapid jay]

it used to be ~33% before women started getting bombarded with 'underrepresentation' / STEM propaganda

[delicate bane]

i dont think we have even have 1 dev in our vertical that is female

some in product though

[vapid jay]

the propaganda only reinforces the belief that it is not a stereotypical field for women and has likely deterred far more people than it has encouraged. The numbers seem to reflect this too, however, I'm sure there are other factors to consider that may be impacting on the diversity of the workforce

[gritty rivet]

The 20% figure is for the US overall in 2018: https://ncses.nsf.gov/pubs/nsf21321/table/5-1

[delicate bane]

ah gotcha gotcha

[spark cobalt]

It is definitely mixed. I do think that a company has an interest in hiring in more diverse departments.

Like for me, I'm 18, high school degree only. Someone who did pursue a non-conventional path can (not always will, but just saying they can) provide a perspective that hasn't been "institutionalized."

But then you can argue, it's not that they're hiring me because I'm 18 specifically, or I'm other protected group, but specifically because I have shown a diverse attribute within me that's loosely coupled with a protected group.

And when you think about it like this, can you really prove that someone hired solely on base of race? When that person that may have experienced America in a different view has expressed how their opinions are unique in the general to the rest of what the company may generally see.

There are companies that are seeking to be diverse for the diversity of opinions that may have some sort of correlation with age, race, sex/gender, etc.

Then there are companies who are filling a quota.

[delicate bane]

i think you bring to the table an interesting set of experiences since you are non-traditional

[vapid jay]

Interesting... that seems to demonstrate an increasing proportion of CS graduates are women... yet other studies show a decreasing proportion of CS employees are women... Strange there isn't a correlation there, I'd have expected workforce proportion to reflect graduation proportions

[spark cobalt]

I think it's really just a matter of perspective.

[vapid jay]

eloquently put

[spark cobalt]

I need to buy lunch cya guys

[vapid jay]

enjoy! 🙂

[spark cobalt]

I'm supposed to have a meeting today but it isn't scheduled so hopefully it's not soon

Oh well...

[gritty rivet]

I totally agree that it's hard to prove things about individual hiring decisions which is why I think it's important to understand the overall data.

No sane company wants to hire unqualified candidates. Many, not most, understand that diversity has value and they often get that diversity isn't just race and gender and educational attainment but other things that are hard to measure

[dreamy shadow]

More like 2-3 entire teams are offshore based in India.

7:00 am calls for everyone!

[spark cobalt]

Diversity is also something a company may take a financial risk for. For example, hiring someone like me instead of a new grad. Is it discrimination that I got the job and not a new grad? Who knows.

Even if you hire on the basis of diversity. What if they don't provide anything unique?

Also there's a sense of some positions may need some level of discrimination. If your clients are all American, you might not want to hire an entire sales department of non Americans.

[dreamy shadow]

Hire a new grad for an entry role? Naw, we hire entry level with 2-3 YoE only.

[spark cobalt]

Some company best interests lie in some degree of bias or discrimination.

[dreamy shadow]

Also, some companies don't bother with H1B visa applicants at all, while others only look at applicants that do.

[true harness]

isn't that illegal? i thought you had to try and hire local applicants first

[dreamy shadow]

Yes, but best of luck proving it in court.

Especially if they are multinational

[true harness]

but why would a company do that tohugh

[dreamy shadow]

H1B visa applicants can be hired for cheaper compared to an American applicant.

[gritty rivet]

It's not inherently "discrimination" if it's based on actual demonstration of ability to perform a job function.

In that sense discrimination isn't necessarily the primary reason (definitely not the only reason) women are underrepresented as SWEs.

[dreamy shadow]

Women are underrepresented in CS as a whole. A good chunk of that is due to gender bias against them in the field.

[gritty rivet]

List a ridiculously low salary so you can't find any local applicants, now you can legally move on to H2B applicants.

[dreamy shadow]

Just low enough, as the h1b salary is public info. Too low and you get lawsuits

Just add a promise of a green card and tada position is filled even with lower salary.

[gritty rivet]

Right, I definitely did not mean to imply there are fewer qualified women because women are bad at math or any stupid thing like that... I'm just saying it's not directly the fault of individual employers if women are overwhelmingly choosing to study other subjects and so employers must (and should) work extra hard to find the qualified women

[dreamy shadow]

Many of them basically get bullied out of STEM. Rather sad to see.

[gritty rivet]

True

[vapid jay]

a larger chunk is due to natural biological interests

[gritty rivet]

This is a baseless assertion. Computer fields were initially dominated by women and still are in some countries.

[vapid jay]

please provide your source that computing fields (not including data entry/admin) were ever female dominated professions?

Also, it's far from baseless... but we've had this entire debate in this channel before and I cited numerous sources to prove that it can be attributed primarily to biological differences, you're welcome to search for that thread but I'm not going to spend my time digging out all the sources again

[gritty rivet]

The closest thing I've seen to a plausible biological explanation and it's obviously ridiculous: https://therooster.com/blog/men-are-better-physics-because-they-master-‘projectile-motion’-while-pissing

[vapid jay]

agreed, that is ridiculous. No gender is inherently better at physics, I'm not arguing men are better than women at CS/STEM, I'm arguing women have a lesser interest in those fields due to their biological makeup and resultant chemical compositions. The same way women generally have less of an interest in football, ufc, etc... sure, a large proportion of women still enjoy those sports, but a larger proportion of men do. Why?

[gritty rivet]

biological makeup and resultant chemical compositions.

If you can't be specific about what this means, you're effectively saying "I don't understand, therefore it's natural"

[vapid jay]

I mean, as I previously stated, I cited sources last time this debate arose. Feel free to enter from: Ugh into the searchbar on your top right if you want to peruse the data. In the meantime, feel free to address my question of why men are naturally more interested in football, ufc, demolition derby, etc if it can't be attributed to biological differences?

[gritty rivet]

I didn't say biology isn't relevant to anything, just unlikely to be relevant to the question at hand. But I'll see if I can find the previous discussion

[vapid jay]

so you feel that biological interests do affect female interest in some activities but not in others? and I'm the one effectively saying "I don't understand, therefore I assume"?

okay, let's reverse the question. Why are men underrepresented in hairdressing/makeup related professions?

[gritty rivet]

We know that testosterone is linked to physical aggression and we understand basically why. What does that have to do with engineering?

[vapid jay]

is it because they're prevented from following their passions? or is it because those passions were never there to begin with?

[vapid jay]

okay, and why are men underrepresented in hairdressing?

[gritty rivet]

If hairdressing was as well paid and prestigious as aoftware engineering it might be a relevant analogy

[vapid jay]

jesus christ.

I'm out.

[dreamy shadow]

Man, I'm glad I prepped for the question "What is a p-value".

Always hate when this gets asked in an interview.

[balmy mural]

Why? If someone can't answer what a p-value is, they very likely have significant gaps in their fundamental statistical knowledge or don't know any statistics at all?

[dreamy shadow]

What? Computing used to be seen as a female occupation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_disparity_in_computing

[vapid jay]

In the United States, the proportion of women represented in the computer science field peaked around the mid-1980s and has declined ever since. In 1984, 37.1% of Computer Science degrees were awarded to women. However, this percentage dropped to 29.9% in 1990 and 26.7% in 1998.[21]

remind me how 37% is the majority?

[dreamy shadow]

IMO, it tells you nothing about knowing statistics at all. It's more of a memorize and move on.

[balmy mural]

There was already a big debate with Ugh about this. He won't be changing his mind, lol

Yes, but it's such a simple question that someone unable to answer it would be an easy filter

[vapid jay]

because my mind is based on logic and evidence, not emotions. provide me with evidence to support your claims, and I will change my mind. Randomly assert you know why something happens without evidence and I'll give as much weighting to your argument as I would to a 2000 year old fairytale written by cavemen

[surreal crescent]

What am i reading

[analog sun]

Can we move on past the discussion of women in computer science? It isn't really on topic for this channel and isn't productive

Thanks

[dreamy shadow]

You can really do a lot of ML work without needing to know that at all. It's too much of a trivia question than an actually indicator of understanding.

[surreal crescent]

If your pashions programming and if you are female then thats awesome

I would work with anyone

[vapid jay]

^ and that is how the entire industry should function

[surreal crescent]

As long as the danm job is done.

[dreamy shadow]

Either way, I think I did well in this interview. Despite the p-value question, and then the unsupervised vs supervised, and confusion matrix.

[surreal crescent]

Im not great in math

[vapid jay]

nice 😄

will it be your first role?

[dreamy shadow]

Those are too generic questions that I wouldn't ask tbh. Or at least ask one and then go for more specific questions.

[surreal crescent]

But i love programming

[dreamy shadow]

No, I'm coming up on 3 YoE. 1 job per year

[vapid jay]

ah nice! congrats!

[dreamy shadow]

Threatening to hop at my first job actually netted me 21% raise & job title change lmao

[surreal crescent]

Congratulations

[dreamy shadow]

There was one specific question about AWS I had no idea lol

[surreal crescent]

Im in college rn.

[dreamy shadow]

Something along the lines if you take over someone else's code that generates tables and you didn't have perms to delete. What you would do. Something along the lines of a service account.

I just said I would copy the table and continue from there as a work around lmao. Not the answer they looked for, but works too as a solution

[surreal crescent]

How do i ace a technical interview?

[azure olive]

DevOps engineer here and this is literally my everyday

[dreamy shadow]

Depends on the job. If it's DS, prep the standard questions then cry when you realize there are no standard questions. -My experience.

[azure olive]

At least I know I’ll be able to answer one interview question, will be looking for a more developer like role in the coming years

[dreamy shadow]

So, what's the actual solution? Like in AWS or Azure, what's the name of the service they indicate here?

[balmy mural]

@buoyant seal Gonna ping you directly for this. I'm looking for a nice introductory book to go through something that would relate to work someone would do in devops. Books you've mentioned before that I'm considering are: "The Kubernetes Book" and "The Phoenix Project" and "Docker Deep Dive", but I don't know if there's something else that you'd recommend or think one of these books would be better to start with than the other

[azure olive]

I mean what’s the specific question? @dreamy shadow

[balmy mural]

Only starting to work in January and just looking for some interesting reading material for the next 6-7 weeks

[azure olive]

Service accounts, in my understanding, allow applications to authenticate with each other

[dreamy shadow]

It's worded as the following:
If you are given code that generates a new table and deletes the old table, and in your environment you don't have perms(?) to delete the table. How would you tackle this problem.

[azure olive]

Typically between cloud services

[dreamy shadow]

Oh, so on a basic level it's like if I were to give someone else access to a git repo? With write perms?

[azure olive]

Yes, if you were to imagine it with users rather than applications

[dreamy shadow]

Ok, guess that's why the interviewer didn't think it's a big deal I didn't know it.

[azure olive]

Service policies are like the user equivalent of service accounts

[dreamy shadow]

I might have over stepped saying there's not too much difference between a local jupyter notebook and SageMaker.

[azure olive]

The problem with all these nouns is that they have so many different meanings from many different contexts

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, same with the acronyms business side uses.

For example, "CCP"

[azure olive]

😂

[dreamy shadow]

Like why? Who decides this is a good idea?

[buoyant seal]

U need to know technologies before learning professional culture and principles.

In my opinionated suggestion i recommend Docker Deep Dive first
Then learning Nginx Cookbook
Then Practical Ansible 2
Then Terraform up and running
Then learning Gitlab Ci, and building pipeline they builds docker image, tests it, raises infra in terraform and deploys with ansible all from gitlab ci
Then learning simple monitoring and logging solution, Prometheus Loki Grafana Alert Manager
Then learning The Kubernetes book
Then only beginning to learn principles with books like The Phoenix Project
https://sre.google/books/
Site reliability engineering and workshop book

[balmy mural]

Awesome, thanks. Will start with Docker Deep Dive then

[dreamy shadow]

Got a take home project for a different interview. Starting to wonder if this is even worth it, given that I hate figuring how to pull data from gov websites.

[balmy mural]

.bm 1043260256379215983

[flat anvil]

Click the button to be sent your very own bookmark to [this message](#career-advice message).

[spring island]

dear python programmers

i came to this community with one question

what do i use my 50 euros on

[hearty island]

i got a case study from carmax as an interview question and couldn’t solve it 😭 , probably gonna get a rejection email soon

[dreamy shadow]

What was the question/case study?

[hearty island]

some question about building a bridge across two different estates for a car shop, they threw a ton of numbers at me and i got confused

[dreamy shadow]

Oh I see, was it more of SWE or Data science?

[hearty island]

i think it was more data science oriented, it was for a business analyst role

[dreamy shadow]

Ah, from what I've heard some of the analyst questions can be way in left field. Friend of mine got the question: "How many 4s in 0-1000" or was it 10000, I forgot.

[delicate bane]

[delicate bane]

sometimes they ask these types of questions in product interviews. theres a name for this category...

market sizing/estimation questions? something like that. i dont remember

[delicate bane]

btw, there are a lot of additional features that aws provides to sagemaker

like api endpoints. probs one of the more popular features

[dreamy shadow]

I mean, it's not anything I couldn't build from notebooks & scripts.

[delicate bane]

true

[dreamy shadow]

But I'll probably be taking the weekend to learn a bit more since we just started setting it up.

Not really keen of this auto-ml stuff though.

[delicate bane]

eh itll force DS to be more heavy on the engineering side or product/business side. and if you have certain use cases, you can always build it from scratch

[dreamy shadow]

Or you can just hire analyst (For data cleaning role), give them an auto ml tool and cut DS out entirely.

[delicate bane]

until it breaks, then you need someone else to come in and clean up.

[dreamy shadow]

not sure what's going on with my work laptop today, freezing left and right.

Not sure if you've seen DataRobot. But it's kinda hard to break. Literally clean up data, select variable and hit button to run.

[delicate bane]

for light data cleaning that works, but if you need someone to ETL the data from different sources, do some transformations, serve it for models, etc. youll probably need someone like a data engineer or an equivalent

[dreamy shadow]

Datarobot can connect to sources like Snowflake or AWS

[delicate bane]

datarobot had its own mini-implosion with that scandal. still cant believe that happened

[dreamy shadow]

I'm not advocating for data robot, just pointing out what it can do when I used it.

Cuts into my lunch money

[delicate bane]

lmao

[dreamy shadow]

For example, instead of a manager of DS & 4 DS. You can do: Manager of DS + Data robot + 3 data analyst role and get the same output. (Theoretically anyways)

[delicate bane]

i think DS will have to learn to work with AutoML when needed and either increase their throughput, move in the engineering direction/product direction, or all of the above.

[delicate bane]

yeah i mean maybe DS roles will have to transition to ML/Data Engineers or Data/Technical Product Managers or something. what do you think?

[dreamy shadow]

I think the problem is that most places don't know what they need. And/or they don't know what the other roles are called so they just generically call it all Data scientist.

e.g. the place I just interviewed few days ago actually looking for data engineer with light modeling, but still straight up asks for data scientist.

[delicate bane]

ahh true. they are kind of treating it as the general "software engineer" role.

when in reality, they need frontend, backend, mobile, etc.

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, that would be a good equivalent. The interview questions I've heard from my friends for DS roles just gives me an impression that you really can't prep for them. You can prep for the general ML stuff, but sometimes they just throw some random question that you just have to think on the spot.

[delicate bane]

yeah like those aws questions 💀

[dreamy shadow]

No, I mean more like:
So you have to containers, each has a virus that doubles every second. One starts a second after the 2nd one. How long does it take each one to fill the container.

[delicate bane]

bruh thats like those OG google questions

[dreamy shadow]

100% rather have them just say: Here's a dataset, here's a take home problem. Do it get back to us.

[summer roost]

Eh... The OG Google questions were puzzles that required thinking outside the box. This one is just very easy math - it doesn't quite seem the same to me

[true harness]

you see that question on like, ads that are like "you have 130+ IQ if you can solve this"

[delicate bane]

true. im doing a disservice to OG google

i met with a vendor today at work. it was a weird convo mostly bc that was the first time ive done such a thing.

advice to my past self would be: try to better gauge the level of their technical expertise before diving too deep into your use case.

i feel like my communication skills are getting worse over time — isnt the opposite supposed to happen?

[vapid jay]

Depends on whether you use those skills regularly or not 🤷🏼‍♂️

[summer roost]

to be clear, I think this is a much better question than the OG Google questions. I don't think solving puzzles correlates very well with job performance, whereas understanding the exponential distribution very well might.

Google used to ask questions like "If you were shrunk down to the size of a nickel and were put in a blender that's going to turn on in 10 seconds, what would you do?", and they wanted answers like "If my musculature, respiratory system, and vascular system were shrunk in proportion, I'd easily be able to jump out of the blender from the bottom", which is stupid to expect as an answer from software developers, and totally unrelated to the job in every possible way

[dreamy shadow]

I would look the interviewer straight in the eye an say: I would die. DIE and then walk out of the room.

[summer roost]

"honestly, getting blended might be less bad than this interview"

[mortal wedge]

Thankfully the industry is doing less of that, but I still have some interviews like that

“We’re trying to streamline processes so we’re not doing promotions right now” company that says this is full of it, right?

[white relic]

I mean, whether or not it's true it still sounds like a bad place to work

either you're not getting a promotion, or you're not getting a promotion and you're being lied to

[summer roost]

I'm not quite sure what they would even mean by that. What does "streamlining processes" have to do with promoting people?

what sort of promotion are we talking about?

into a team leadership sort of position that is currently sitting unfilled?

[mortal wedge]

Well team leadership position I'm currently performing the duties of but is technically unfilled.

[summer roost]

and what processes are being streamlined?

[mortal wedge]

They keep coming up with reasons to delay officially promoting me. "We just had yearly cost of living increases" "We're halting spending until the next round of fundraising" and now "We're trying to streamline our processes, do raises at the same time"

Apparently the promotion process, but there really isn't one, according to my boss.

Does any company work like that? Only promoting during certain times of the year?

I've busted my ass to make sure there was no performance related reason to delay it

[summer roost]

not that I've ever heard. Leaving a position unfilled for months at a time seems unreasonable.

[mortal wedge]

Maybe it's a "why pay for the cow when you get the milk for free?" thing

[summer roost]

I can see limiting re-orgs to certain times, but that's about creating new positions or reorganizing existing ones. But if a position is open (because someone quit, or was moved to another area, or whatever), I can't think of any reason why the company wouldn't immediately start taking steps to fill it - other than trying to save a little bit of money by having someone do the duties without the pay bump. (Which seems penny wise but pound foolish.)

[open ivy]

I wonder what kinds of "unmet" needs are there outside of medicine Python could help with? A lot of people have been hired to work for Facebook, but despite all those efforts Facebook hasn't really gotten any better at helping me find/make friends. So all this work did not translate to a meaningful quality of life.

[mortal wedge]

Python does help with medicine, interestingly enough. At the moment I am working for a medical device company. Even pharma companies need someone to simulate drug delivery, calculate optimal dosing, etc etc etc

[open ivy]

@mortal wedge Medicine is the obvious one, but I wonder what else outside medicine?

[mortal wedge]

Ah, I see

Idk, a lot of the things I can think of, there's already somebody utilizing Python to do it well. That or Python is not the optimal language for that thing

[open ivy]

I would love a medical python job, but applications their so far all failed. They want you to be experimentalist or to know AWS, etc my resume doesn't really fit.

[smoky quest]

Python is used in pretty much every single domain one could think of

[mortal wedge]

Well, there will be an opening at my company once I quit >.>

I hear you though. To go deeper into medicine/research a lot of these jobs are asking for phd desired masters required

[open ivy]

Rephrase my question: Where can computer coding help society at large outside of medicine. So many jobs are basically designed to "make BigTech more addictive". That actually makes friends harder to find because scrolling through the Facebook feed is generally NOT a social activity. Facebook is just a rolodex to me no other use besides wasting my time.

[summer roost]

it may sound trite, but: Facebook's goal is to sell ads, not to improve people's lives.

[white relic]

yes, but if they aren't giving you an actual timeline, or describing the expectations you would have to meet to be promoted in the next annual cycle, the reason you're not being promoted isn't because it's the wrong time of year.

[smoky quest]

That's like throwing the baby with the bathwater.
Facebook is huge and while it does have its weird parts, it also does some awesome things for humanity. Have you ever heard about all the work they put in for helping in emergencies? Or education?
Even the simple act of messaging has been able to bring families closer together

[mortal wedge]

They are saying that I have to wait until the next annual cycle. The company moves slowly though and that wouldn't be until like june of next year, when I've already been doing the work of a higher position without the pay bump for about a year and a half

[white relic]

yeah, that's b.s. of some variety

[mortal wedge]

Okay. That's what I figured.

[open ivy]

I feel developing the internet as a whole was a wonderful thing. But further development of Facebook's core products have pulled people apart.

[smoky quest]

That said, it's a bit outside of the scope of this channel 😉
From a career purpose, the point is there are many teams, even across facebook, where one could do good with python

[summer roost]

You may want to look into nonprofits or benefit corporations.

[open ivy]

Would I know going in if I was to be placed on one of these teams? It would nice to have examples inside/outside of facebook. How does it compare to working for a non-profit NGO that i.e. makes Sierra Leone have cleaner water?

[smoky quest]

It can be challenging to find a company for which their mission resonate very well with you. That takes time and some research

[summer roost]

public companies are generally organized to maximize profits, but NGO's, non-profits, b-corps, etc have different structures and different ways that they define their goals.

[white relic]

Unfortunately it seems "I quit" is the only sentence some companies understand. I wish you the best, however it goes.

[open ivy]

The hope is to find a company who's business model revolved around helping customers. I.e. profit would somewhat align with altruism.

[smoky quest]

That's where I don't subscribe to it. Many non-profit NGO make it sound like helping the world is a vocation and you must suffer through it.
But you could make the world a better place through other means. For instance helping for-profit companies developing more efficient farming methods, or helping improving the security of software

[summer roost]

that's what a benefit corporation is, in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benefit_corporation

[open ivy]

Very true with the Hep C cure. A windfall for the company. And also a cure to a horrible disease.

[open ivy]

Oh wow! Is there a list? I believe almost all drug startups would make the list but other fields are important as well.

[gritty rivet]

If you're interested in non-profit jobs, idealist.org is cool. But the number of SWE jobs on there is pretty limited. Not sure if there's a similar site that includes for-profit enterprises with a social mission too

[summer roost]

there are also for-profit companies that give significant amounts to charity.

[open ivy]

There does seem to be a "bits vs atoms" dilemma. In medicine, for example, there is a much higher demand for jobs where you primarily run code rather than write code. The code you run is in not written in Python or C++ or Java, etc. Instead, it is usually written in English and is called a "lab protocol".

Example career site: https://www.science.org/careers

However, the field of automation and robotics is where bits become atoms. The sophisticated AI doesn't lead to "mere" software, it leads to real-world consequences even more directly than CAD simulations, etc. So that is also a big interest jobwise for anyone who wants to see more atoms in this world.

[delicate bane]

+1 for B corps

[mortal wedge]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

[peak halo]

my company only does promotions at fixed times, but if no one has told you that your company operates similarly, and the reason for you not being promoted keeps changing, that does sound like a red flag.

oh, I'm way late.

[open ivy]

"the reason for you not being promoted keeps changing". This. THIS. THIS!!!

[buoyant seal]

It is common in every startup at least. Promising payment later, work for interesting now

Hehe, notification about leave helps to speedup process. Works only if valued though.

[smoky quest]

It's not common in healthy startups. That is common across every toxic environments, be it large or small.

[delicate bane]

better late than never

[open ivy]

I agree with this. A healthy startup will give a low-ish wage and promise capital. But they still PAY the wage that they promise and it is enough to get by on.

[mortal wedge]

May be late, but still appreciated 🙂

[vapid jay]

God made us by watching a tutorial on yt which some random indian dude made

hello guys i am quite scared for my career

[summer roost]

why is that?

[vapid jay]

so i have taken data science as my career option for my upcoming years so as of now i am bombarded with so many languages theres this thing called 'applied scientist' where u are given more money more freedom than a data scientist and i am like ok but as of now i am busy with sql , python and html as a start of html but keeping this aside its overwhelming

i am trying to do a project but i have to do something that is non existent so it is making me feel hopeless and constant stops in the way

[smoky quest]

are you in college or university?

What's the context of that project?

[vapid jay]

i am in university right now more 2 years to complete my degree in cs with data science

[vapid jay]

we got 2 projects to do i am just looking for oppurtunites to work around with

i have no clue why my uni is focusing on c program when i am a data science student whose into python and r and julia

[smoky quest]

probably to make you a well rounded engineer

[vapid jay]

but i dont like

c programming

[glass furnace]

Plenty of core concepts translate across languages

[compact veldt]

who will help urgently, please, with the code

Python: Prove that the number 2^19936* (2^19937 - 1) is perfect, that is, equal to the sum of all its divisors, except itself.

[rapid delta]

really expected a big red cross ngl but congrats

[rapid delta]

but if ya got the chart can ya send it to me since its much easier to learn that way thanks

[orchid yoke]

stop pinging me for this. Link to charts is right above my pics

guys, stop it

[buoyant seal]

yeah, true

at the moment i am outstaffed to a quite nice startup in terms of environment. for that alone it is good to remain here.

i guess i was too pessimistic in presuming, that most of companies will prefer to fool person in terms of his salary

[vapid jay]

probably a commonly asked question...But is it possible to get a job/career in Python development (any topic) with self taught experience. (No grades)

[dense mesa]

Yes but difficult, depends on your location and network a lot

[vapid jay]

I am UK based

[near ocean]

That makes it even harder, cant you go to uni for a degree?

[dense mesa]

If you can get a job through people you know, still very difficult to jump through HR "degree requirements" hoops, uni degree or some form of education is still useful

[vapid jay]

i could...but that means travelling back across the country cos of where I am living doesnt give any computing courses in Programming or near

[near ocean]

Is that a problem?

[vapid jay]

yes....a little

anyhow, what sort of course should i be looking for? Perhaps I am looking for the wrong one

[near ocean]

Computer science ideally

[gilded valley]

Where are you living?

You could also do the OU anywhere in the country

[vapid jay]

Wales

[gilded valley]

Wales has plenty of universities. Cardiff, Aberystwyth, Bangor. I'd be surprised if you weren't within a 1hrs drive of one

[vapid jay]

Swansea uni is the closest to me

[gilded valley]

https://www.swansea.ac.uk/undergraduate/courses/maths-comp-sci/computer-science/bsc-computer-science/

[vapid jay]

thank you

[cerulean spade]

Guys do you recommend study python and backend for roadmap.sh?

[near ocean]

What does that mean

[cerulean spade]

studying following roadmap

[near ocean]

roadmap.sh is just a general guideline, dont read too much into it

[buoyant seal]

what is your educational background? are you in university at some year?

[cerulean spade]

so i just know about python, but parts like data structers, algoritms i am studying

from scratch, almost

[steep stratus]

I also have 2 years to go but I failed one year in cs cause our teachers are so crappy they sometimes don't even know simple python and if the code doesn't function they just give the remaining program for us to solve

[buoyant seal]

so u are not in university then? and haven't been there?
do you plan to enter it?

[steep stratus]

i am in high school

I want to leave badly

[cerulean spade]

no

[near ocean]

No to which part, there were 3 questions

[cerulean spade]

for all

[near ocean]

You dont plan to go to university? Why not

[steep stratus]

I do plan to go for university but the university here are only for the locals and ones in my home country are crappy

[cerulean spade]

so, i never adapted the model of school, i guess that have value, main the professor, i guess that have path more fast of learn

[near ocean]

Im not sure i understand
You dont want to go to uni because you dont think it has value?

[cerulean spade]

I think it takes a long time to learn, and that there are things you learn that are not necessary depending on your area.

i live not in Usa

in Usa is good the college

[buoyant seal]

where do u live? Probably we have people here from your country even

[cerulean spade]

brasil

here have goods colleges too

but are few

actually i discovered recently this world of programming, 8 months before

[near ocean]

How old are you? If you can you should get a university degree

[buoyant seal]

in majority of cases, university is needed for software development to do it in professional way
because they teach you all the basics, wide specter of them
they teach you how to learn on your own
and bachelor's degree diploma helps very much to find first jobs as a developer.

with university it is path of least resistance... all you need to study diligently university program + things on top of it, in order to be later successful
without university... u a competing with all people who did not finish university too (a lot of people) + with lacking knowledge of basics, having less experience in coding(which people do in university too) u a in general looking pretty much bad for hiring usually

u need to have some sort of preferably advantage to try breaking in without university. For example being expert in useful domain/subject for software development

[cerulean spade]

i agree with you

Do you think that you learn the same thing as you do in college alone in less time?

[near ocean]

Even if you do, you wont be at the same career level as someone with a degree

[cerulean spade]

because of degree?

[vapid jay]

do you reckon i'd get accepted for having lower maths and english grades but high computer science grades? (This is for college cos my grades are too low for uni)

[buoyant seal]

yes.
There is issue that even people who graduated from university, still aren't fully useful workers. At best they are good interns/or even juniors, but it still takes some investment in the size of a half a year or more (with all their advantage of being already prepared by university), in order to become worker which is doing more good, than causing extra cost to other developers.

With person finishing university, companies have very good indicator... that highly likely person is a good investment and will manage to transform from being... time sink and developer sink of other developers into useful worker

So... most people have same filtering mechanism at the level of any job role, be it developer or HR... people filter first by degree.

[gilded valley]

Apply and find out. Or ask the university

You can usually get a personal conversation with someone who has power over admissions if you try

[vapid jay]

I have applied but I plan to give them a ring Monday to find out if I can or not

[buoyant seal]

P.S. and for people without degree, it is often.. you know... time sink for years until they manage to do transformation. Plus they are often having overinflated ego from how they teach in online degrees.

Person who finished university, is also assurance that person is having minimal necessary soft skills to communicate with people, to learn stuff on his own, and that what makes them having quickly transformation to useful worker. Besides already knowing all the basics, including experience in code writing and reading

[cerulean spade]

right

do you guess that ambient of work help in your developing

[buoyant seal]

is having developer job helping to grow developing skills further?

[cerulean spade]

i want to say in relation do you work in own project