career-advice

[cosmic jacinth]

is it really that surprising to be honest?

[summer roost]

Those people would probably receive unemployment if they simply refused to return to the office and got fired for it, for what it's worth

taking someone who expected to be able to work remotely indefinitely and demanding they go to the office every day probably counts as "constructive dismissal" under most US states' labor laws.

[smoky quest]

yeah not surprising.
I am curious how it's going to pan out as well

[summer roost]

🍿

[spark cobalt]

I wonder if companies ever did data on like, some performance measure between remote and in person. Would be pretty fun to see

Well they probably did it, but won't publicize it.

[smoky quest]

if performance could be objectively measured in the first place 😉

[spark cobalt]

Yeah true.

[summer roost]

it's quite tough to do, honestly. Productivity this year is lower than normal - but is that due to remote work, or pandemic fatigue?

[smoky quest]

just count the lines of code written like Elon Musk did, I guess

[summer roost]

even trickier, remote workers are better at certain types of job duties, and worse at others.

I'm absolutely better at the head-down-coding part of the job while working remotely, and worse at the mentoring part.

[spark cobalt]

I like on site. Super fun

Just, on the days where they don't ask you to come to work, literally no one goes. I went in today and there were only 2 engineers total that came today (including me)

And then on the on site days, like 60% comes. Company is super lenient

[summer roost]

I've been effectively fully remote for several years, and I don't know that I prefer it. It's better in some ways and worse in others.

[cosmic jacinth]

remote work is extra fun when your self discipline is that of a 5 year old

[smoky quest]

It's nice to pop out to the office at least once a quarter. But the pandemic has also killed that

[spark cobalt]

Work is super convenient for food and whatnot. They give us 25$ allowance for lunch which I use for dinner too

Not having to cook is really nice. I hate cooking

But obviously, they get that food delivered to the workplace, so gotta be there in person to reap the reward

[cosmic jacinth]

makes it like 10x cheaper tho if you have a microwave at work and can just shove something you cooked the evening before there - meal is like 1-2$ a pop in that case (also this is getting ever so slightly off-topic)

[spark cobalt]

For the company sure. But for me? Why eat on my dime if company willing to offer food on theirs

But yeah, I do on site so I don't have to worry about food also cuz I like on site better. I work better on site and I hate the Zoom shit, would rather work person to person

So much better to just walk to the person rather than request to huddle or whatever

[summer roost]

in some ways. Worse in others.

Better for the help receiver, worse for the help giver, most likely 😄

[ivory sluice]

ic ic

[delicate bane]

dunno what is up with MO but like makes you wonder

is it really that low of COL?

[summer roost]

sounds like "NY state within 50 miles of NYC" would count as NYC?

50 miles seems like a pretty generous range for that.

[delicate bane]

yeah according to the asterisk

well its more like implied lol

[delicate bane]

until they make you come into the office
jk.

[summer roost]

50 miles away from NYC is, like, most of NJ 😄

[ivory sluice]

50 mile commute is very normal for commuting to manhattan

try 70 lol

[delicate bane]

[ivory sluice]

it's miserableeee. i did it for exactly 1 summer.

[summer roost]

I used to have a 50 mile commute, by car. Do not recommend.

[delicate bane]

i see, i see. how long does it usually take

[summer roost]

mine was 50 miles in 60 minutes. Mostly interstates.

[delicate bane]

i had a 35 mile commute while i was in grad school. i liked it only bc i could listen to more podcasts

i was am a nerd like that.

[summer roost]

I bought a convertible. That made me like it more.

[ivory sluice]

ok i just checked and i exaggerated. distance wise it is 47 miles but it was 1h50m of train and then some subway

[ivory sluice]

you were that guy

[delicate bane]

well at least you could use your laptop on the train/subway

[ivory sluice]

and the train ride had a transfer midway.
nah i slept

[steep falcon]

What should I learn to become full stock developer

[true harness]

how to order inventory when it's low learn the tech that's used

[summer roost]

both the frontend and backend parts of https://roadmap.sh/

[spark cobalt]

🤨

[compact veldt]

Is there anyone who understands Python? help urgently! Write a program to divide the number a by the number b, if a, b are multi-valued numbers

[buoyant seal]

!rule 8
https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources/guides/asking-good-questions/
While u may ask help with homework, we need to see u already tried every option to do it on your own first.
Recommending reading the guide how to ask good questions

[inner wren]

Rules

8. Do not help with ongoing exams. When helping with homework, help people learn how to do the assignment without doing it for them.

[glossy glen]

is there a good place online where i can learn python

[spark cobalt]

!resources also wrong channel fr

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[balmy mural]

Right. Went with the consulting one @delicate bane
Still need to iron some details out though, I'm in a different country for the first month of starting, so I'll have to be remote. Gonna be interesting

[delicate bane]

nice bud! sounds very promising. cheering for you

[timid python]

Hey

[peak halo]

You can make interactive novels and 2d games with Python, but if you want to be a professional game developer, you should probably use a game engine like Unity, where you use C#.

[pearl shuttle]

Bro, i really wanna learn how to earn money from Python, even it's only $1, could you tell me how to earn money from Python? Like i'm a college student, learning about programming but i don't have any part time job, so i got no money now, and kinda interests with python programming. Thanks!

[near ocean]

Fix up your CV, apply to python jobs, pass interviews, now you have an income

[pearl shuttle]

alright ive never heard about pythonjobs before, thanks for that!

[near ocean]

Sorry that was a typo, i meant jobs that use python as a tool

[pearl shuttle]

nahh its okay, i got you

ah yea, could you tell me like, the easiest job to do from Python?

[lime bay]

I have a live interview coming up guys. Before that I've been given a task to work on which I submitted.
The live interview would be on implementing some new things for that task. Is there any way I can adequately prepare?
I'm sure I'll be asked questions about why this decision etc

[delicate bane]

good luck dude. if you havent already, then i would get comfortable with being able to code and communicate your thought process at the same time

[gritty rivet]

Just get any job you can and focus on getting a real job after graduation. Making money from basic Python on a part time basis with no formal experience is not really practical.

[white relic]

Think of 2-3 different ways you could have completed the task, and think about in what ways they might be better or worse than what you actually did.
There are many ways to write any program. Some of them are just as good as any other. "Why did you do X?" is an invitation to talk about your problem solving process and show that you know of alternative solutions Y and Z. It's not really about defending your choice of X.

[lime bay]

Thanks. Very clear

[vapid jay]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[vapid jay]

Hello

I cant understand that why in my google account its showing SS_Android

Can someone help me what is it and how to remove it because there is no third party remove option

[spark cobalt]

Yo this channel for careers ngl. Maybe ask in one of the offtopic channels

[vapid jay]

Sry for disturbing

[raw sable]

is mcdonald cashier a good career choice

[smoky quest]

comparing to what?

[raw sable]

good question

[smoky quest]

fyi, it's not a channel for shitposting

[sudden fiber]

whats the difference between a software engineer and a software dev?

[white relic]

Depends a lot on context. Why do you ask?

[buoyant seal]

it can be no different in some countries and companies
and can be different in other countries and/or companies.
consider them synonym xD

[sudden fiber]

im a software engineer and someone told me im a dev and I kinda thought it was an insult

[peak halo]

Was this conversation in English, or a different language?

[sudden fiber]

English, i live in america

[true harness]

unless their tone was snarky or it was like "i'm an engineer. no you're a dev" i don't think that was an insult. in the US they're generally interchangeable

[peak halo]

unless they put weird emphasis on the word "developer", it's exceptionally unlikely that it was intended to be an insult. "software developer" and "software engineer" are basically interchangeable in US English. And even if you draw a distinction between them, that doesn't mean people around you are choosing which term they use according to that distinction.

[white relic]

As someone in the US who is a non-software engineer, there is a cultural difference between "software engineering" and other engineering fields. The term "engineer" is not protected by law here as it is in other countries, but there is still a strong expectation that anyone with the title "chemical engineer", "electronics engineer" etc. is someone who graduated from a 4-year engineering program. ABET accreditation for software engineering programs is still pretty new and most people with the title "software engineer" are instead graduates of CS or other non-engineering programs. This can lead to the impression that software engineering isn't a "real" engineering discipline or that it isn't as rigorous as other kinds of engineering.

Also, still speaking as a non-software engineer, the most insufferable engineers are the ones who gatekeep engineering, make it their entire personality, and tell other people they aren't real engineers. So if it was one of those who told you that, feel free to ignore them.

[near ocean]

In my experience job searching in the UK i've mostly seen "engineering" used as a title for c/c++/java/c# type roles and not js/py/php/whatever other non compiled lang
Definitely feels like elitism and gatekeeping so yes you can ignore them

[white relic]

on the other hand, don't take offense at other people's ignorance. If it was a comment by someone who doesn't know or consider there is a difference, it's not an insult.

[sudden fiber]

sounds about right tbh

[buoyant seal]

there is some simplification like... in IT enterprise there are only
managers, users, devs, people like that basically... regarding roles
so... dev means u are in group people who does some techno magic xD

[lilac fractal]

I'm back on the job search grind... I've been at my first job for a while, but want to find something else. How have people prepped for coding interviews after their first job? There are a lot of concepts that I haven't touched since school (binary search trees, dynamic programming), but I'm trying to figure out an efficient way to prep

Is it just as simple as doing leetcode everyday?

[buoyant seal]

it is not

[buoyant seal]

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/darklab8/darklab_backend_roadmap/master/swe_backend.drawio.svg
Usually generic skills are like git, unit testing expected regarding software development... Also code complete by McConnel just covers everything regarding coding / code architecture
the map has resources which u can learn for most of stuff
green skills are SWE ones, and universal for any dev. What other colors means u can read in the map legend at the bottom left
P.S. this is map of a backend developer.. so ignore everything not green, if u aren't backend dev. (Although light purple can be useful for python stuff)

[near ocean]

Certainly one way to do it but not a fun one, i did this but slowly, daily leet and a couple more puzzles and that was it for me really

[lilac fractal]

That looks very helpful, thanks! @buoyant seal

@near ocean Gotcha, yeah I do have experience with real world dev and the software dev process...my concern is just getting weeded out in the initial coding test because there are so many concepts that I haven't touched in a while

[near ocean]

If you've done them before and just need some brushing up you could go through leetcode easy and medium, but carefully and consistently
Cramming doesnt work

[true harness]

the book cracking the coding interview is nice

[near ocean]

But this would pretty much only work if the companies youre applying to do leetcode type interviews, you probably shouldnt spend 100% of your effort doing puzzles

[buoyant seal]

@lilac fractal u can pretty much see from the linked map that... those leetcoding tasks are essentially only Algorithms+Data structures green skills in the map. And there is enough stuff besides that useful to learn

[lilac fractal]

Okay yeah that makes sense

Obviously this is dependent on which company you apply for, but what are some of the ways "Senior Software Engineer" interviews go? I am shooting for backend positions

Is there more of an emphasis on system designs and architecture

[near ocean]

I imagine less of the isolated technical stuff and more architecturing an entire solution to a more vague/generic problem

[buoyant seal]

seniors can be receiving system design interview tasks yes
seniors can be receiving just free reign check of everything on different topic needed to be known
seniors can be receiving some leetcoding tasks too from time to time
or some other form of practical coding check is necessary to be present
in conclusion:
system design can be present, but not always. depends on job duties (often enough it is mentioned in job requirements)

sometimes u are just thrown as a gear into... already very very big project 😐 There is enough to do without system design.

[lilac fractal]

Haha gotcha, thanks all. This gives me a lot to think about

It's a bad time in this economy to be applying, but thanks I have an initial roadmap for prep

[buoyant seal]

let me just warn u that it is very opinionated map of a backend developer who likes devops engineering stuff and wishes to be software architect.
This path can be liked not by everyone. Build your own learning roadmap, whom u wish to become xD During one skill/book learning u will discover on your own how to map what next next to learn

[smoky quest]

<@&831776746206265384> ads

[tender thicket]

!cleanban 579040648578203698 ad spam

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @full mango permanently.

[dreamy spade]

Qualifications

What will you need to succeed
Post-secondary education in software engineering, computer science, or comparable combination of education and work experience in software development
High degree of proficiency in at least one non-scripting language, front-end or back-end focused
Strong knowledge of .NET MVC architecture and modern web-based technologies including jQuery, Bootstrap, Web API, etc.

A job posting for a Software Developer role. No degree required. I respect this company.

I got tired of seeing companies depend on candidates to have a degree and use that as their only metric to determine whether a candidate is employable.

[smoky quest]

Degree or not degree should not be about respect.
It's about demonstrated skills

[spark cobalt]

I'm a high school graduate and the job posting that I applied and got the job for was Masters/PhD required. Job descriptions are more like a wishlist. A lot of job descriptions have very few people that are actually qualified.

[graceful mason]

I mean post-secondary education doesn't leave much room for non-degree options for graduates, that sounds like a normal posting

[glass furnace]

The second clause does:

[...], or comparable combination of education and work experience in software development

[spark cobalt]

[graceful mason]

This isn't targeted towards self-taught programmers with no industry experience

[glass furnace]

Industry experience can be gained though, just gotta find the right opportunity. On paper, I'm completely unqualified for my job!

[spring nexus]

Yo, I have a school assignment/project, its for python and im blanking completely it isnt hard at all if you know parameters and looping. SO PLEASE if anyone can help dm me and we can call or i can message idc just pls someone help

[summer roost]

This channel is for discussions about jobs and careers, so your message is off-topic here. We prefer all help stay on the server, rather than take place in DMs. And keep our rules in mind - any help with school assignments needs to follow rule 8

[spring nexus]

im not asking for someone to do it

[spark cobalt]

#❓｜how-to-get-help

[spring nexus]

omg bro

[smoky quest]

It describes pretty well how to get help with your problem. Good luck!

[spring nexus]

ok i did it lets see, thx

[vapid jay]

hello, i have a question to ask

are any kind of degrees needed for getting a job related to python

and also to get a stable programming job, what do you want to know about python

[tight cliff]

As a fresher in python what technologies will boost my employment opportunities?

[brave matrix]

check the job listings in youre area, and see what are the most sought-after skills and start learning them

[brave matrix]

it depends where youre from, but take it from me (self-taught) it does help alot

[vapid jay]

i kinda didnt do grade 9 - 11 , so i missed out on 3 important grades and im kinda done

so im trying to learn python so i can get an okay job without having to go school

[brave matrix]

where are you from?

[vapid jay]

im a sri lankan living in UAE

[brave matrix]

so how old are you right now?

[vapid jay]

16

[brave matrix]

if you could go to uni then I would advise it, but regardless you can start learning Python on youre own by just studying online

[vapid jay]

Well i missed out on 3 important grades and that might take time, but i want to study python without having a degree

so like do you think i can get a stable job with it, i dont mind the pay tbh

all i want to know is if i can get a job and if i could what are the requirements i want like what i should mostly focus on python

[brave matrix]

you could study Python without a degree, its gonna be more difficult to find a job without a degree (depending on your country)

if you want to know the requirements check the job listing description...

[vapid jay]

What would if i moved to a different country?

[vapid jay]

no like in your opinion what do you think i should study in python like mainly focus on yk

[brave matrix]

Master the basics

and you probably also need OOP

[vapid jay]

what is that

i've seen that alot and still dont know what it is

[peak halo]

"object oriented programming", where an object is an instance of a class. There's a lot of OOP design concepts; the extent to which they should be applied in Python is controversial.

[vapid jay]

ahhh now i remember

so its basically classes right?

[white relic]

in the context of "what should I learn in python" it means learn how classes and inheritance work, yeah.

[vapid jay]

oh gotchu, thanks man

[fast sail]

Hello can anyone help me in my coding

[near ocean]

Not in this channel, try #❓｜how-to-get-help or #python-discussion

[delicate bane]

hi, this doesnt really belong in this channel since this channel is for #career-advice

[woeful hull]

I'm so sorry for bothering😔😔😔

[delicate bane]

its ok

[dense mesa]

<@&831776746206265384> pretty major safeguarding concern

[old marsh]

Is it possible to get an IT job if you don't have any degree yet and no previous job experience?

I've looked through lots of jobs and pretty much all of them require a degree or previous job experience, or both. Even the small salary ones

[cosmic jacinth]

possible? most likely
is it going to be much harder than without a degree? also most likely

[old marsh]

makes sense

[cosmic jacinth]

do you have the possibility of doing a degree at all?

[old marsh]

I'm 17, so not really, not yet

[cosmic jacinth]

are you still in highschool by any chance?

[old marsh]

yes

[vapid jay]

Can someone help me,im new with coding,i was trying to do something and i dont know,if else,can someone teache me,Thanks guys 😃

Need help ASAP

[balmy mural]

#❓｜how-to-get-help

[cosmic jacinth]

honestly just go for a degree then - you're basically in the perfect situation to get one

[vapid jay]

thanks, @balmy mural

[hardy shard]

can anyone give geeks for geeks courses

or all coding courses please

[peak halo]

geeks for geeks usually has shitty code quality for their python stuff. I wouldn't take a python course from them.

[old marsh]

honestly, I'm not sure if I'll even go to a uni or a college. Literally every single person that I know who went to college or uni to study something in IT complains about it, like it's not worth it.

[cosmic jacinth]

well you can go ask some self taught peeps here - boy oh boy do they also have some complaints

[spark cobalt]

Hi 🙂

[old marsh]

I get it, yes. It's pretty difficult finding a job without college or uni degree

[spark cobalt]

Shit ton of people complain about work, shit ton of people complain about high school, it doesn't mean you shouldn't do either of them.

I'm unsure what the IT market is like, maybe no degree works fine for there.

[old marsh]

I'm not saying that they're just complaining. I mean they sound like they regret going to college/uni in the first place

[spark cobalt]

Where are you located?

[old marsh]

Baltic States

[spark cobalt]

Maybe ask them to specify instead of guessing. Quite an important life decision.

[old marsh]

Well they usually say a bunch of shit about the teachers and the methods of learning etc.

[spark cobalt]

And are they in the IT field working full time?

[old marsh]

Some of them have had IT jobs before, some of them haven't. None of them are currently working

and yes they want to work full time

[spark cobalt]

Are they still in school? These all sound like red flags lmao

[spark cobalt]

Just saying, a lot of college is for the degree. I know quite a few people self learning most of the content in their course.

Just because a teacher is ass doesn't mean you should just not learn

[old marsh]

no they're in unis/colleges

[old marsh]

No I don't think that was the point they were making . The point is that an Indian tutorial on Youtube teaches you more in 20 minutes than 1 year in uni does lol

[spark cobalt]

Then they wouldn't know the effect of what having or not having a degree is in terms of searching in the job market

[old marsh]

yes that's true tho

[cosmic jacinth]

to be fair i've heard... less than stellar stories about unis more towards eastern europe

[spark cobalt]

Yeah it's moreso the question of is a non IT degree going to have an issue finding an IT job

I don't like how schools teaches a lot of things so I always grew up either neglecting a class or self learning things

But like, there is still a risk to say you don't wanna go to school at all

If you went the self learn route, you need to figure out what to know yourself. While the college will have a course guideline to tell you what they think you should know.

Then obviously the connections you make in college, etc. It's a lot of things you're discounting on education just because of bad teachers.

[near ocean]

Are they actually bad teachers or are these people spoiled brats that want everything spoonfed to them without any amount of effort?

[old marsh]

literally

[old marsh]

I wasn't talking about people from Baltic States only tho

[old marsh]

no they self-learn a loooot actually. I can't really say if the teachers are actually shit or if they simply dislike them

[spark cobalt]

I would ask them to specify. You seem to be premising your entire decision on bad teachers, which you could go to college and have a fantastic one. Then what's the consensus there?

[cosmic jacinth]

¿por qué no los dos? (why not both)

[white relic]

Putting up with the occasional bureaucratic bs and acquiring a degree in spite of bad teaching and so on is its own kind of filter.
Like, having a degree means more than just knowledge, and not having a degree says more about you than you may realize.

[near ocean]

Having once been an 18 year old I can confidently state that university students are absolutely clueless and should be entirely ignored

[spark cobalt]

A lot of my friends are just roaming yeah.

[cosmic jacinth]

kinda figured, i've been self learning some borderline university level maths - not going to lie, kind of wish i'd have a professor to ask/teach me in more detail except stumbling around for a few weeks trying to put 2 and 2 together

because it really does seem that above entry-level university stuff the self-teachable trail runs kinda cold

[spark cobalt]

Yeah I got really lucky in that respect. My dad was a physics professor and having him teach me "uni level math" made my life easy

Lots of luck in self taught route

[cosmic jacinth]

well luckily i have a path to university in 3 years (and unfortunately, that path is the educational equivalent of a root canal as i've ranted on about it in the off-topic channel)

[desert whale]

Let me tell you degree does matter, it's like a first filter. Not everyone will give you a chance without filtering all the applications first

Some companies don't care about it most do

[idle helm]

Its wrong, but without a degree many companies wont even read your CV

[near ocean]

Why is it wrong?

[regal mica]

@lime breach It's me

@lime breach @lime breach @lime breach @lime breach @lime breach @lime breach @lime breach @lime breach @lime breach @lime breach @lime breach

[sudden yacht]

Please don't spam pings

[regal mica]

ok

[pseudo spade]

HOW DO I GET INTERSHIP WHEN I AM IN HIGH SCHOOL WITH 0 EXPERIENCE

[summer roost]

YOU DON'T

[pseudo spade]

What u mean

[gritty rivet]

Internships for high school students, especially for programming, are extremely rare.

Focus on getting into a good university, that's where you'll find an internship.

[pseudo spade]

YES SIR THANK U MR

[queen notch]

Hello guys

Should I learn python over the next few years at college or a bootcamp, or any other options.

I am a senior in highschool* taking a computer science class this year and we are learning python

[buoyant seal]

Now available as a meme.

[spark cobalt]

The best internships you can get is through a local community college. Couple of people in my HS managed to get an internship there. But it's mostly code maintenance and whatnot.

An internship at an actual company is unbelievably rare.

[vapid jay]

so should i cold email colleges within my area?

[spark cobalt]

Dunno, maybe check if they have openings.

[smoky quest]

College is the route with the most opportunity and best career options

[spark cobalt]

Not even sure if internships like these are a norm

[vapid jay]

alright
that's interesting, never thought colleges themselves offered internships

ah i see

[spark cobalt]

But uhh I grew up in LA and Pasadena Community College seemed to be the pretty common internship for high schoolers.

Oh one of my friends was a "CS Research Intern" at USC in her senior year of HS

[vapid jay]

alright
do you who exactly should i email within the college?

[spark cobalt]

Not sure. I've never done these personally.

It's just an option. You might have a chance doing some development work for non profits as well.

[hearty island]

internships are very competitive even when you're a college student. to get one as a high schooler is even more difficult

[vapid jay]

yeah
i applied to one unpaid internship on angellist and got accepted
they invited me to their discord and everything
I don't really understand if i was truly accepted or they're gonna do some elimination process 😭 i have no job experience or knowledge whatsoever

[queen notch]

I see, do you know of a good school in California?

I've seen that Cal Poly or UCS is pretty good for computer science

[vapid jay]

yep. that's why i'm trying to get ahead

if i get my knowledge and experience up before college, i feel like i'd have a better chance at getting a job compared to my classmates

[queen notch]

Also if I were to go to college for coding, what would be the best to major into? just computer science? or like programming idk

[queen notch]

if you got family in the business it's not hard

[vapid jay]

i do but i'm not very close with them 😭

[queen notch]

One of my uncles are offering me an internship for summer

[vapid jay]

that's sickkk
he's a software engineer too?

[queen notch]

Yeah he's also ranked pretty high in his company

I think him and some of his college friends created it, or something I dont 100% recall

[spark cobalt]

UC Berkeley the best in the nation I think.

[spark cobalt]

A lot of these internship positions open at these colleges have almost no applicants on LinkedIn

[queen notch]

Yeah I've seen stuff about that one too but I just don't want to go to that area

It's just too far for me

[vapid jay]

how come??? if they're on linkedin, i'd expect them to have many applicants

[spark cobalt]

They're not internships college students are targeting.

Internships at actual companies are representative of "real work experience". But a lot of these college internships aren't really that.

At least that's what I think. Some of these roles don't sound interesting at all.

Just focus on learning to code in high school and building projects.

[vapid jay]

I guess so 😭
time to get back on working on my site

thanks for the info!!

[wild warren]

ive had friends young as 13 get multiple swe jobs at small startups - its possible if u grind hard enough

[buoyant seal]

now that's something unique. Kind of wonder that he was able to get hired at all considering all the laws about minors.

[wild warren]

canada has diff laws i think

I know many like that actually - discord networking is great

@buoyant seal i got an offer as well at 14 (rejected tho 😦 ) so its def possible

[buoyant seal]

https://youtu.be/S3J-ce800b8

[wild warren]

LOL

[spark cobalt]

Companies really that desperate that they'd hire pre-puberty people

[desert whale]

Tech industry on fire rn

[true harness]

does canada really let you do meaningful work at 13? surely there isn't such a large shortage of interns that companies only have 13yo to choose from right. cause if that's the case, that's where i'm going lol

[cosmic jacinth]

not pointing fingers, but he could have also just asked some relatives really nicely

[desert whale]

11 of out students went to the exchange to Canada last year, only 3 came back others chose to stay there and accepted the work offer. Apparently this happens every year in my school

[spark cobalt]

From like, middle school?

Like middle schoolers got return job offer and... quit school?

That's kinda nutty lmao

[true harness]

i think they're talking about part time or summer jobs

[spark cobalt]

Oh ic

I can see that happening. I just don't see the 13 year old shit.

So if school is like 5 hours long, they can only work 3 hours.

Oh Canada school is 6 hours long. So 2 hours a day

[true harness]

well, summer you have 0 hours of school

[spark cobalt]

Oh true

But the guy also says:

ive had friends young as 13 get multiple swe jobs at small startups - its possible if u grind hard enough

I guess safe to assume it's internship...?

[smoky quest]

I wouldn't read too much into it.
13 years old don't get "normal" jobs

[spark cobalt]

I don't even know if a 13 year old can faithfully sign things like an NDA

[smoky quest]

Or realize what is an NDA

[spark cobalt]

[smoky quest]

Even less so being on-call

[wild warren]

it was at a startup
https://www.frenter.com

My offer was from a startup as well but I ddin't take it becuase no time + it was gonna crash and burn maybe so

getting the ML/AI position was super lucky for me becuz most companies wouldnt hire 14 year old mL enginers

[spark cobalt]

May I ask what's your math background?

[wild warren]

I'm 4 grades ahead in math so in AP calc bc rn

Friend worked at frenter btw not me

[spark cobalt]

This whole thing sounds weird so not gonna press it. Congrats to you and him though.

[wild warren]

the startup was a bit shady admittingly

@spark cobalt founder said he would pay me once they started profitting - didnt specify timeline so maybe he was exploting me for free work?

[spark cobalt]

Dunno. The issue is moreso the child labor laws.

[dreamy spade]

This was a question asked to me in a job application.

How much code coverage do you aim for in your unit or end-to-end testing?

What do they mean by end-to-end testing?

This is a job application for a Web Developer role.

[wild warren]

basically that the code in prod works front to back

[true harness]

probably the same as integration testing i guess

[spark cobalt]

Just means testing in the workflow of how a user would actually use your app.

So for a to-do app, may look something like: login > create new task > update new task > delete new task > logout

As for code coverage, this is kind of a trick question. Generally what companies see when they set high code coverage quotas is that many of the tests are shitty, which just makes for more code to maintain that isn't doing anything meaningful. Wouldn't say a number specifically but point out it's case by case. Low coverage is always not that good, high coverage just can be bad.

But a lot of companies at the same time are obsessed with 100% code coverage which is like yikes.

[smoky quest]

yeah, it's an experience based question.
The discussion could go into multiple directions. It could also be pointed how you get coverage and the type of testing.
And to be noted also that the type and emphasis on the testing may depend on maturity of the app

[serene kindle]

What do you think about the concept of leaving a current software engineering job to try to get a higher paying job?

[smoky quest]

Can you expand a bit on that?

[serene kindle]

Like people who leave their current job then study interviewing for 6 months to get a higher paying job, does it make sense

[smoky quest]

no it doesn't make sense.
You will be a lot more attractive if you currently have a job. If you have to quit to study for 6months, it also shows you aren't that strong to start with

[serene kindle]

Do employers actually care about huge breaks between jobs? I like taking huge breaks

[smoky quest]

As long as it makes sense and does not trigger a flag

[serene kindle]

I want to take 1-1.5 year break

[summer roost]

They'll be curious about it, to try to figure out whether it's because you couldn't get a job.

[serene kindle]

ok

[summer roost]

you should expect that they'd ask about it in an interview, and whether or not they're worried about it would depend on how you answer.

at the very least, it means that you have that much less experience than you would have had if you had been working during that time.

[livid nebula]

hey uhhh what will someone do if he is 17yo and just have a pc but he want to work like programmer thing ??

[smoky quest]

they would study and prepare for going to college for a CS degree

[summer roost]

enroll in a university, for computer science or software engineering.

[spark cobalt]

If looking for stability and a solid career path, going to college.

[summer roost]

and practice programming at home, to figure out things you like and don't, and where your interests lie.

[serene kindle]

why do some people who are new grads from undergrad make 3x the salary of people with masters degree and 10 years of experience

[smoky quest]

For the same role?
I doubt it though

[dreamy spade]

People really study interviews for 6 months? 🤯

[serene kindle]

saw this a lot at my job

[dreamy spade]

Why do companies have to make interviewing so deep?

[serene kindle]

well 6 month break for interviewing 2 of my coworkers did

[smoky quest]

Something is still fishy. Entry level bands aren't higher than senior/lead/principal/staff

[smoky quest]

It's not that deep tbh

[spark cobalt]

^

[serene kindle]

i meant the contractor vs FTE, contractors with masters degree, FTE with undergrad degree

contractor is 90k FTE is like 180k/270k (with few yoe)

[smoky quest]

Depends on the location and stuff. For equivalent roles and experience, a FTE may have a higher total comp, but a lower base than a contractor since contractors have more things to pay for (health insurance, etc.)

[smoky quest]

I would expect the 180k/270k being the total comp for the new engineers

[serene kindle]

ok

[smoky quest]

and for total comp, it gets blurry as sometimes the people will include the 4 years worth of grant instead of annualizing it

[serene kindle]

why do people don't include food and health insurance in total comp? its such a big amount in practice

[smoky quest]

People may not, but job offers would talk about the benefits and so would the company, especially if the benefits are good

[serene kindle]

like i'd count the health insurance as 6k/year and food as 20k/year maybe

yeah also the massive numbers of days off itself is like 10k/year

benefits are worth like 35k tc i guess

do you ever use your massive 'income tax' to fund some massive spending? like somehow buying massive $10k computer and deducting it from income tax?

nvm

[summer roost]

that's not how that works.

[serene kindle]

it would be so cool if people paid their rent using income tax deductions,

[summer roost]

that's not what an "income tax deduction" is.

deductions are reductions in the amount of income that you pay taxes on.

[serene kindle]

i mean income tax refund

so instead of spending 30k on taxes it is spent on rent at 2.5k/month, and get 30k of that money back from tax refund

[summer roost]

income tax refunds are just the government paying you back an interest-free loan that you made to them. If you're getting 5 figure income tax refunds, you've mismanaged your money.

[serene kindle]

yeah i'm not that skilled with taxes

i haven't got that type of rent tax refund before though

[summer roost]

you should aim to not have that happen in the future. Big refunds are a sign that you overpaid throughout the course of the year, which means that you were robbed of value (both in terms of your inability to make use of that money at the time when you earned it, and in the fact that the money is worth less when the tax refund arrives than it would have been worth when you were paid it, because of inflation)

[serene kindle]

what do you do with cash then

i'm not that rich unfortunately

thanks

saying this after the tech stocks tanked 90%...

[summer roost]

Literally anything is better then loaning it to the government for a year. Buy stuff with it, or put it in a savings account, or invest it in funds.

[serene kindle]

true

[prime pagoda]

hi

I am currently taking cs50p course. I am interested in AI and I want to become very good it. But I also need a job or I'm going homeless. Any advice is welcomed

I have enough money to survive for another 4 months

[smoky quest]

• Find a job, any job
• Aim for a CS degree if you want to go into AI. Otherwise, look into bootcamps/self learning and lower your expectations with webdev

[prime pagoda]

CS degree is not really an option. I am really enjoying the cs50 with python. what should I do after that?

[smoky quest]

https://roadmap.sh/frontend is a common way to demonstrate skills. You will need some strong projects to demonstrate that.
You will also have to accept that your career prospects will be lower, including your compensation and titles

Note also that it will take more than 4months for most people to achieve the state of being ready to be hired. So I would recommend to hedge your bet and find some job to sustain yourself first

[summer roost]

Self-taught AI jobs without a university degree do not really exist.

[prime pagoda]

hmm. Thanks. Let say I find a job with which I can sustain myself. And I want to do research/AI development on my own. How do I do that? Like after python, Should I jump straight into AIs?

[smoky quest]

you would read books about AI and make projects and study prerequisites (ie. math)

[summer roost]

That will almost certainly not lead you to a job, unless you have a university degree in a close-enough field already (possibly mathematics or physics)

[prime pagoda]

Thanks

[summer roost]

If you're trying to break into software development completely self taught, frontend web development is definitely the easiest place to get a foothold.

[prime pagoda]

Front end web development. Alright. I know some javascript.

[serene kindle]

brutal

4 months is the time it takes to figure out how to live a homeless life

just spend 4 months studying how to be homeless instead

[spark cobalt]

Being homeless fucks up chances of being employed even at lower end less skilled jobs. It's absolutely not worth being homeless.

[spark cobalt]

Get a decent paying job that can allow you to sustain for a very very long time. Not only will building the skills to be hirable will take some time, but job hunting will end up being very reliant on luck especially in this economic climate. You also want to make sure you have those 4 months saved in case an emergency happens to you.

Something I was going to do was do night shifts at restaurants (I had 2 YOE of working in food industry) and then do programming, calling recruiters/headhunters, applying to jobs, etc. during the 9-5 work hours.

But yes, 4 months will not really land you a job. The only case I've seen this happen was this viral Youtuber with only 2 months of experience as a professional developer giving Reddit-tier advice on Youtube getting a return offer he interned at for economics and them okaying him to come back as a SWE.

An absolutely unreplicatable path for you, since you're likely not getting an internship bc not going to college. Just have to gun for FTE.

[prime pagoda]

What is a practical path for me? I will look for job to stay afloat then?

[spark cobalt]

At least personally, I spent the last 2 years programming to land my first job FTE completely self study.

[spark cobalt]

You need to absolutely be able to sustain yourself, no matter what.

If you're in the US, you can find many pretty nice restaurants that are desperately hiring for someone. They'll start you off as something easy like a greeter or something but ultimately it'll allow you to sustain a living.

Solid low skill job that pays well. Also huge demand for night shifts in general. And weekend shifts.

The only real question is burnout. Restaurant life can be draining for some people

[prime pagoda]

Unfortunately I'm not from US. I'll look for something

[spark cobalt]

I'd just drop programming for like a week or two to just fully invest into this.

Talk to your family, friends, see if they have positions that they can extend to you. Or maybe try and see if you can live with your parents, etc.

[prime pagoda]

I'll drop programming and look for something. Hopefully something works out

[limber vale]

can you do cs without programming?

as in other types without programming courses of that level, because i cant do much math lol

[prime pagoda]

Take a look at cs50 course.

[summer roost]

If you take programming out of CS, nearly everything that's left is math

[spark cobalt]

In terms of what to learn for programming. Probably like Typescript, React, Redux, HTML/CSS/JSX, etc. May want to pick up a general purpose language like Python on the side as well. Then build projects that show your skills in a way that makes a company want to hire you over other college graduates with their own sets of projects. I wouldn't do like a Netflix clone, do something more personable to you, something you're passionate about. Everyone has seen a Netflix clone or an Instagram clone or an e-commerce clone, etc. It's not special especially when there's a decent possibility it was all copied from somewhere (not saying that you would.)

Then in terms of job hunting, one of the nicer reasons to why you want to be available during the day is some job hunting strategies only work in the day (calling recruiters/walking in person/etc.), as well as interviews will happen during the 9-5 workday and you'll be able to work conveniently with their schedule.

You also want to invest time into networking. Start networking now. Go find local developer meetups, make some friends, have them give their two cents, etc. Generally the trend that I've seen is that a lot of self taught developers get in through connections. I didn't personally, but it could help you a lot.

[spark cobalt]

I mean I can only imagine UX designer

Which I don't really know how you can display your "UX skills" without projects that require some form of basic programming.

[prime pagoda]

Thank you so much

[serene kindle]

homeless isn't that bad, i knew a lot of homeless programmers myself since i lived next to them for years (i was not homeless). i mean living in an RV for example or a van isn't that bad. but it takes time to make that transition to homeless living and it would be a lot worse for it to suddenly happen. it's better to spend time in that transition to homelessness, i saw programmers spend months preparing their van but of course it can be faster. that being said, of course trying to suddenly get a programming job within 4 months is not reasonable

[spark cobalt]

If he's able to sustain without having to go that route, then he should.

[serene kindle]

yeah i saw team of programmers spend months prepping their homeless van

[spark cobalt]

Is this like, NYC

[serene kindle]

idk even full time Googlers go homeless sometimes. depends on the location

nah silicon valley. the rent is high so programmers go homeless a lot, had a whole bunch of vans

[spark cobalt]

I'm living in San Jose (between Cupertino and Santa Clara) at 830/month for rent including utilities for 1b0.5b. Which even a minimum wage job can easily sustain a living there.

[serene kindle]

to be fair we had a parking space and facilities like bathroom/shower available so it facilitated homeless living it was part of the culture as well, a whole bunch of vans and RVs for the programmers

[spark cobalt]

I think it's moreso just a measure of time. Sounds like a huge time investment for a temporary lifestyle. I don't think it's worth it time-wise.

[serene kindle]

idk i'm just used to it

a lot of bay area people go homeless, some of my friends slept in cars

just part of the culture

[spark cobalt]

Ic. Haven't seen that yet.

[serene kindle]

of course people with jobs usually live in housing, these are the programmers who are job hunting

[spark cobalt]

How do they get things like internet. Do they just camp out of Google HQ or something

[serene kindle]

they come to the building

the van is just for sleeping, sometimes sleep in the building, no this is not Google

https://www.businessinsider.com/google-employee-lives-in-truck-in-parking-lot-2015-10

[spark cobalt]

Well I guess there's multiple ways to sustain living.

[serene kindle]

working full time at a non-programming job 8 hours a day like selling burgers all day just to pay rent is pretty brutal

[spark cobalt]

This guy's life isn't easily replicable. Since 90% of his expenses is relying on what Google gives for free to employees.

[serene kindle]

yeah, it depends on location. the location i was at was conducive to homelessness since it catered to them

[spark cobalt]

It puts them in the green though.

[serene kindle]

nah i'd rather go homeless

[spark cobalt]

Unless the homeless person also starts part time work so they can stay in the green as well.

[serene kindle]

yeah depends on the rent price

[spark cobalt]

I'm living 830/month. Minimum wage, not even 40 hours a week, can easily sustain living.

[serene kindle]

ok

[spark cobalt]

A 10000 down payment to get that truck

[serene kindle]

tbh if housing was a problem just go to one of those coding bootcamps

[spark cobalt]

That's literally a year of my rent

[serene kindle]

the thing is that bay area housing is so abysmal that the truck is a huge upgrade

[spark cobalt]

Maybe in San Fran area. SJ area nicer

[serene kindle]

san jose is the cheaper part, people commute from there to the work areas

homeless living takes time since it takes time to find parking spot, shower spot, internet spot

[spark cobalt]

1300/month in SJ

[serene kindle]

i mean i get it it's possible to pay rent by working a job

[spark cobalt]

It has to be. Not every restaurant worker is homeless.

[serene kindle]

nah... in the bay area some full time workers go homeless

[spark cobalt]

Lot of work opportunities in south bay as well

[serene kindle]

damn after 1000 job applications i got 1 job in the end

i mean i fail interviews which is on me but i wasn't picky to that level

[spark cobalt]

I applied to 4000 to get 2 job offers

[serene kindle]

congrats

[spark cobalt]

Granted I just graduated from high school like 5 months ago so resume scanner removed me like 99.99% of time

[serene kindle]

oh

[spark cobalt]

I should go to sleep. I need to bring my car to the repair shop tomorrow morning ugh

[serene kindle]

good luck

i mean good night

what

[vapid jay]

oops sorry

[spark cobalt]

20 year old fucking car, older than me, with engine light on.

Endless pain in my chest.

@serene kindle Though, I never thought of it before but I could actually go homeless in it. It's a Toyota Sienna, like 19 feet long? A loot of space.

Learned quite a bit from talking to you. Thanks

[serene kindle]

nice

homeless people take the back seats out of their car for more space

[spark cobalt]

Kept the seats in case I wanted to sell it haha

[serene kindle]

oh ok

damn its value is probably $2k at most

[spark cobalt]

My parents just got an RV and they have no need for the car they were using which is pretty new. So now titleship of it is mine, just it's in LA.

[spark cobalt]

Yeah the engine light draining the price I can sell it for. Also have a little sister that could use it to practice driving I dunno

[serene kindle]

you have to pay the car insurance for it

might as well give/sell/lend it to your sister

[spark cobalt]

It's just the issue of transporting it to LA. Parents are saying it's not safe to drive a 20 year old car with engine light on all the way down

[serene kindle]

nah i've done that a lot

without the check engine light i mean. but the check engine sometimes can be ignored

[spark cobalt]

I've driven it to Turlock then Sacramento then back with that car which in total was 12 hour drive with the light on

I don't think it's a problem but oh well, parents said to get it fixed before I bring it down

[serene kindle]

you can check the reason of the light for free, then based on that decide

[spark cobalt]

It's O2 sensor. Issue is the sensor is stuck and they can't replace it.

[serene kindle]

so if its just an unimportant reason you can drive it anyway and ignore it. i did that before for many miles of driving

damn

[spark cobalt]

They were saying they'd at lowest would charge me 700-800 to replace the cataclytic convertor or 1800 to replace the whole exhaust

Which, is way too damned expensive for a car that I'm not using in a couple of weeks

So going to another dealership tomorrow and see what they can do

Guy is sketch, so try some different opinions

[serene kindle]

sell it to your sister and get your parents to pay for the repair since she owns it

[spark cobalt]

My sister still in HS and has a mountain of college debt soon TM. I think doing that kind of goes against my moral values

[serene kindle]

lol i think you can just drive with the light on, if you have to replace the thing anyway

[spark cobalt]

The thing is parents giving me 60k car and then it's like "damn you want us to also pay another 2k for repairs, hell nah"

RV was 150k. 2023 model which is really sick, they got it marked down like 40k or something. But yeah

[serene kindle]

when you arrive in LA just disconnect your battery and reconnect it again, the check engine light will go off

[spark cobalt]

I don't think they want to spend more money on cars.

[serene kindle]

iirc it will only turn on after they drive it for a while

[spark cobalt]

Maybe I could do that now .

[serene kindle]

so then you can gaslight them to oblivion and say they made it break

[spark cobalt]

My parents are way too smart to out maneuver

[serene kindle]

nah

[spark cobalt]

They're both lawyers. They work with gaslighters for a fucking living I don't think I've ever successfully lied to them once ever.

[serene kindle]

i've had check engine light turn on after sent to mechanic for repair, and stuff like having to do same repair again or something

damn lawyer parents who won't even pay a $800 car repair

[spark cobalt]

They're half retired. They just living RV life now

[vapid jay]

fuck fuck

[spark cobalt]

They only take cases when they feel like it. Spending 95% of time doing art.

[vapid jay]

fuck fuck

[serene kindle]

so get a credit card, get the $2k car repaired, drive it to LA, get the 60k car, sell it for $60k, buy a $2k car, pay off the $1k credit card debt, profit $57k

[vapid jay]

fuck fuck

[near ocean]

<@&831776746206265384>

[vapid jay]

fuck fuck

[dark arrow]

!mute 732236089665912893

[spark cobalt]

Calm down

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @vapid jay until <t:1668423881:f> (1 hour).

[spark cobalt]

I want the 60k car though .

I'll look into it. Thanks for your suggestions.

I need to seriously go to sleep.

[serene kindle]

ok good luck

[near ocean]

Isnt this what job boards are for

Linkedin/indeed/whatever job site you use are job ad aggregators

[serene kindle]

google

[near ocean]

If you want to target specific companies rhen you should do so in their own careers pages

[serene kindle]

lol no way

[sick sierra]

How much python should i understand before applying for a junior dev position?

[buoyant seal]

Junior position to which job role I will ask then.

Different job roles = different amount of python and ecosystem of stuff related to it.

[dense mesa]

You could understand none of it and apply, then use the interviews to figure out what you don't know and what you need to work on. Completely depends on company/role/etc

[forest phoenix]

how do i open "ticket" for help?

[gilded valley]

#❓｜how-to-get-help @forest phoenix

[sick sierra]

They always ask for x years of experience, even for beginner functions, or they ask a masters in IT

[buoyant seal]

i think masters is really asked only for data science / machine learning related jobs. because it is more scientific inclined job role.
for normal software development, bachelor's degree is all that's needed

[sick sierra]

I have neither haha

I have Secondary Vocational Education level 4

Not IT related 👍😂

[near ocean]

Youre looking at the wrong job postings then

[sick sierra]

I don't wanna forfeit too much of my current salary

Cus the bills have to be paid anyway

[near ocean]

What kind of job do you work now? And what kind of salary are you looking for a dev position? (Also where)

[sick sierra]

I moved from an r&d position to a an asset management position, mostly managing assets in sap and using basic vsc code to automate some stuff with excel sheets + SAP SCRIPT

But it's not allowed to work from home, even though it's a deskjob

I'm looking for 3k pre taxes

Or atleast 2750

[buoyant seal]

in which country?

[sick sierra]

The Netherlands

[buoyant seal]

is asset management essentially data science or data engineering?

[near ocean]

That seems ok for an entry/junior position, might even be kinda low
I think the goal is to figure out how to incorporate python into your current work instead of excel and use that to show relevant experience

[buoyant seal]

data science probably stuff? then u a missing stuff data scientist is expected to know, check its roadmaps, i can link it

[sick sierra]

It's basically working with sap orders and data structure within sap, each order / task is appended to a point in the data structure per region of the workplace

And u have to document maintainance to each asset etc

And assign the orders / task to the repair / maintainance people

[buoyant seal]

documenting and workflow regarding order/item movements essentially then. Sort of accounter, but mostly regarding logistics

[sick sierra]

SAP Asset Manager is a predictive asset management application. Using this app, you can manage work orders, notifications, condition monitoring, material consumption, time management, and failure analysis.

[buoyant seal]

i had fun recently regarding that too. I was looking for a completely sure way to handle stuff cleanly for my micro business entity.
Ended up using Git/Git-crypt for storing documents in encrypted state with backups and version controlled.
Sqlite3 with Sqlitebrowser for database of records, incoming money, spending money, attaching documents, tax payment records
Python3 used to setup my own little scripts validating to match documents in git repository with sqlite3 database records and in reverse direction too.
markdown (+mkdocs?) + xelatex (it forms pdfs!) for all forms of documentation as a code, for git friendly way

made essentially... really fiting and customized solution for software developer to keep his business related documentation in order for free xD

[buoyant seal]

Anyway... u a better familiar with your specialization, and should investigate what kind of skills are expected for your desired salary in a market.
My approach is entirely different as being completely developer approach to the problem, not acceptable in enterprise companies highly likely anyway. Although my university NSTU, used postgreSQL with custom application solution to keep all documentation workflow too. So it is really scalable and customable way to do it xD

[buoyant seal]

I could imagine, that if your data is needing any forms of plots, python3 data science tools regarding visualization could be useful to present yourself and selling yourself better though
and/or mermaid.js is awesome to document any kind of workflow in different diagrams as a code

Regarding pure documentation tools, python is awesome with mkdocs. +sphinx can be useful too.

[zinc condor]

What career do you look forward to using Python?

[buoyant seal]

I do not look. I am already there.
Backend development and DevOps engineering
With eventual transitioning to Software Architect
Well, I still look forward to reach stable senior levels though in both specializations

[zinc condor]

Ohh okay that's good, personally it's like a side thing. I am a mechanical engineering major student I took up python for AI and data analytics

[buoyant seal]

#career-advice message
U could find useful reading this to plan your career better then

[zinc condor]

Thank you 👍

[wind hinge]

Is it just me or these internships and junior positions asks for to much? Like I m trying to find internship and all i see is bunch of knowledgr that we are not even thought in college

[near ocean]

Do you have an example advert

[wind hinge]

Im not even sure on ehat should i focus, i was lesrning python myself, and found out that python in my country is considered as useless coding language, kinda feeling lost any thoughts?

[buoyant seal]

Well... My university sucks too in not teaching necessary software development stuff. Problem of outdated and dissatached higher education. Only self study helps here

[buoyant seal]

Huh. In which country it can be useless?

[wind hinge]

In serbia it seems

[buoyant seal]

Python is universal and strong

[wind hinge]

I didnt see even one post in kast few months about it

[near ocean]

Junior level job ads are wishlists and not 100% know all these skills or else and also theyre not asking for experts in each tech, just passing familiarity

[buoyant seal]

...I am in Serbia. U have even python meetups here https://www.meetup.com/pythonbelgrade/events/289404129/
I receive stable inflow of job offers from Serbian in country side for python related jobs

[wind hinge]

Many programs for example related to that position, git, sql, aws, mongo, frontend knowlegde....

[near ocean]

You should know some of these from your studies and the rest should be easy to pick up basic skill in with a couple projects

[wind hinge]

O i llnchexk this

[wind hinge]

I have checked plan of my studies im gonna be thought languages like php/c#/java and sql from programming languages more or less

Cloud is not mentioned anywhere for example

[near ocean]

University isnt going to teach everything, build a project that leverages cloud technologies

Youre going to have to do a lot of self-learning in this career path, uni is just there to help you open doors

[buoyant seal]

Java is very cloud/backend useful language. Plus mobile dev useful... And desktop Dev useful.

Oh my god. Java can do everything

PHP technically too backend related Lang

[buoyant seal]

Each software development profession requires quite a lot of specialized knowledge. Obvious that university would not teach it all...

I would have preferred that Git and Code Testing was obligatory part of educational program though.
And learning more code architecture in university
And cicd stuff

[buoyant seal]

Anyway... I recommend.. researching which skills your job role needs to have and building your own self educational learning program with going thorough resources.
I do it so
https://github.com/darklab8/darklab_backend_roadmap/blob/master/swe_backend.drawio.svg

[wind hinge]

Oo i ll check that thanks

[spark cobalt]

Advice on what? Learning to program? Getting a job? Applying for a CS program at a college?

[near ocean]

How old are you? How do you have years of experience

[vapid jay]

Then I am taking your interview, what module do you import from Django.tests for unit testing with Django?

[spark cobalt]

Wtf

[vapid jay]

If you Google the answer of my question then I am pretty sure you can also Google the answer of your question

[spark cobalt]

YOE implies you have years of working at an actual company as a SWE.

[near ocean]

This is offtopic
Anyway, what's ASD and why did you drop out of high school? You generally need a degree to get a decent job and you need some sort of diploma to get into a uni

[vapid jay]

https://tenor.com/view/nikola-aya-nikola-kurulus-osman-kuruluşosman-gif-25355112

[spark cobalt]

Autism spectrum disorder (ASD) is a developmental disability caused by differences in the brain. People with ASD often have problems with social communication and interaction, and restricted or repetitive behaviors or interests.

[near ocean]

Aha, im not sure thats really a reason to drop out of high school

[vapid jay]

You could reply me with one word tho, anyways you import the TestCase module from Django.tests

[gritty rivet]

Have you considered trying to earn a degree? If you're looking for an affordable and fast online program, WGU is popular

[near ocean]

Not trying to dismiss your condition but i think you should go back and try to get a diploma

[vapid jay]

I agree, you should definitely try to get a degree.

[spark cobalt]

Kind of the issue with the self learning route is being sociable will kind of be a huge thing. Companies are taking a huge risk in hiring you to begin with, so generally having the personality/culture fit is kind of a big weighing factor for a self learners.

And idk if ASD fucks with that.

[gritty rivet]

This does require finishing high school though

[vapid jay]

Well without a degree all you can get is freelance works I guess, I cannot guarantee it.

[spark cobalt]

Also trend I've seen is that many self learning programmers got their job through connections. Meaning you have to build your network etc. That kind of requires going to online dev meetups etc. And making friends.

[spark cobalt]

I graduated high school 5 months ago and working full time SWE

You don't need a degree. Just makes the job hunting significantly harder.

[vapid jay]

What does swe mean

[spark cobalt]

If your ASD was that extreme to force you to drop out of high school, it can be a problem with even the job hunting process alone.

Much less building up your skills for your resume etc.

[spark cobalt]

Software engineer..

[vapid jay]

And that w?

[spark cobalt]

Ware

As you so nicely said before:

If you Google the answer of my question then I am pretty sure you can also Google the answer of your question

That's not an issue. If you have 3 freelancing experiences I'm sure you're hirable in terms of technical abilities. The issue is job hunting.

[gritty rivet]

I find it helpful to approach such challenges with a growth mindset: https://www.understood.org/en/articles/growth-mindset

[vapid jay]

SWE is the short form of Sweden used in soccer streaming platforms

[spark cobalt]

Good to know

[vapid jay]

Is it true that you only need basic algebra for swe

[spark cobalt]

That would be false.

Rustacean here to troll don't mind him

[vapid jay]

Thanks for remembering it a long time later

Btw does anyone know how integration can be applied in machine learning

[spark cobalt]

Anywho, this will be a huge consideration when hiring you. They cannot assess your technical abilities till you're on the job, but they can assess how sociable, how easy going, your communication abilities, etc.

it's gonna be tough

Any reason for not doing a college degree btw?

It'll be good for you if you can spend those 4 years to try new things and grow on the social end.

Cuz at least on my end, I'm damned lonely because everyone around me is at least 10 years older than me and have kids and I have no friends in my age.

Don't think this is a matter of money but what's worth for you as a lifetime. College will help you grow on the social end much more than being in the job market early.

Oh honestly same. Generally they're more relaxed.

Dunno. Sucks that you have ASD, but I'm confident you can fight through the added struggles 🙂

Already being able to self learn and being able to get freelancing opportunities like that at a young age is impressive. ASD or not. Props to you.

[summer roost]

Getting a degree is an individual activity, but software development is almost always a team activity.

[spark cobalt]

^

Gonna have to start getting out your comfort zone. Might not like it, but it's a crucial skill to have.

[near ocean]

Group project module would like a word.

[summer roost]

The module that's part of the program exactly to prepare you for the collaborative work software engineer jobs require?

[buoyant seal]

unittest is only for simple works not requiring third party dependencies xD import pytest 🙂

[true harness]

define basic algebra. also what specific part of swe. (probably not though)

[serene kindle]

The way everyone says you need advanced math for programming is like elementary school math is advanced

[mortal wedge]

It depends on the programming job, tbh. If you're, let's say, creating novel algorithms then you better know advanced math. If you're making a chat bot, probably not so much

[dense mesa]

Calculus is used to set up optimisation models, constraints etc, you can do ML without understanding them but not well

[spark cobalt]

Doing ML without knowing the math is like biking without the wheels. You can probably move on a bike with no wheels but like

Throwing darts in absolute darkness

[spark cobalt]

I can only think of things like PDFs. Mostly will be using partial derivatives afaik. (For calculus at least)

[near ocean]

Pretty much the entire concept of optimisation is calculus

[spark cobalt]

Yep

[gritty rivet]

It all depends on the role. I have never once needed algebra at work

[wooden sail]

for programming specifically, would you say an associates is enough? or are you never gonna make enough money to survive without a bachelors?

[smoky quest]

bachelors is the norm

[wooden sail]

eugh. Math is my weak point (I have dyscalculia) and with finally being medicated I think Im gonna pass the one math I need for assoc, but I've looked at the math for the bachelor's and I don't think I can hack it in those, even medicated. Maybe if I was younger IDK

[buoyant seal]

#career-advice message
If i would have seen in advance math i encountered in university while learning for software developer, i would not have believed i will pass too

[wooden sail]

Im doing better than I expected in my basic algebra class--but I'm still struggling, and it's algebra

[mortal wedge]

That sucks, I'm sorry 😦

[wooden sail]

Yeah. We'll see how my assoc finishes out and how difficult it would be to transfer to get a bachelor's anyway (I'm currently at a community college)

given that I have to transfer anyway, and also I am Very Tired of being in the south and rural areas, anyone have any recommendations for schools with a bach in programming that dummies could get into but would still be good? at least for learning, I figure my schools are already not gonna be the strongest point on any resume

[gritty rivet]

Wgu.edu is a popular, affordable online option

[mortal wedge]

If it helps, whenever I look at resumes I don't care what school people went to, just what credentials they earned. Depends on the person, though

[wooden sail]

Ok, I will look into that, thank you. Online has really helped me cause then I can do things like talk out loud in the middle of tests, which they normally frown upon in meatspace but for some reason my brain needs.

[gritty rivet]

You can also just try applying for jobs and see how it goes

[wooden sail]

I might do that after I finish my assoc and even if I go for a bach try and work while doing that, as I'm currently existing only on finaid, but that's a ways down the road regardless.

speaking of which, is wgu.edu eligible for finaid stuff, pell and that?

ah it seems yes! Cool, I will stick this somewhere I don't lose it for if I pass this math class (all signs point to yes but you never know)

[delicate bane]

best of luck bud.

[pseudo spade]

Hehe

[mortal wedge]

I know this is a weird question, but how do you folks deal with the emotionality of needing to leave a company and finding a new one? Like, I know how to find jobs in the industry. But a promotion like 6 months in the making fell through and while I'm starting to interview for other positions I'm finding it hard to focus on my current work and not bring any emotion into my interviews. Any advice?

[gritty rivet]

I find it helpful to remember that having a job is ultimately just an economic exchange. The people who sell you things every day don't usually get emotionally invested in you as a customer. They don't care who buys their stuff, as long as they pay the right price. And you don't usually care who you buy from, as long as the price and quality are good.

I know that working a job is different then putting gas in your car or buying something on Amazon but ultimately it's not that different. We spend a lot of hours on our jobs and we get attached to teammates but the point is that you owe no special loyalty to the people who purchase your time

[dreamy shadow]

The reality of today's market, the only real way to move up is to switch companies.

Someone I know was at a large company for 10 years, passed up for promotion for Senior manager during a reorg. Despite being the go to person for many things. They interviewed elsewhere, and now is a director at another large company.

[mortal wedge]

Nice

[jade egret]

Looking for a Python mentor how could help me guide to achive better results in my future

[peak halo]

it's not likely that anyone will commit to a long-term mentorship with an internet stranger, but you're welcome to ask career questions that are directed at the whole channel.

[leaden jasper]

You can enjoy your work and your coworkers without necessarily having loyalty to the company. As dowcet said, it's a business transaction at its core. The company won't look out for your best interest, so you have to.

I would definitely try to compartmentalize for interviews as best as you can. How good of a fit a different organization is doesn't necessarily directly have anything to do with your current workplace and the promotion fall through. Your accomplishments aren't changed, your salary requirements are still what they are, and your preference for day-to-day work environment is still yours.

[vapid jay]

Actually no, TestCase is a subclass of unittest and it has all the features that you need to test a Django project. You can login with a client and check out the responses which you cannot with unittest module. Its Django's built in module not third party

[buoyant seal]

Same can be done with direct import of test client of Django. Test case is not necessary to use test client.

Anyway, default unit test of Django is completely useless. You already use third party libraries, use normal ones like pytest.

[vapid jay]

Dont agree

[summer roost]

this doesn't seem at all on-topic for the channel.

[delicate bane]

like the others have said, you really, really dont owe your employer anything more than what they have said.

something i have heard about recently, which is relevant here, is the following: if there isnt a non-compete agreement, there are some managers who find a new job and end up hiring their entire old team to their new company.

apparently this happens often in sales with entire sales teams moving with sales leaders.

dont know how common this actually is but apparently it is a thing that happens. i also dont know if you really see this in tech or not.

[white relic]

It certainly happens. I've even heard of people "taking a year off" to wait out a noncompete clause in anticipation of being hired elsewhere. Obviously risky but could be worth it if you can afford it and have valuable skills/knowledge

[smoky quest]

it's somewhat common, depending on who is leaving and the opportunity ahead.
The non-poaching only work one way: the departing employee cannot contact previous coworkers at the company for X months.
But there is nothing preventing the other way around: the people who stayed at the company to contact the departing employee to ask how it's going and to apply 😉
The main thing is to cya

[white relic]

Fairchild Semiconductor was famously founded by a team of fed up ex-Shockley employees

Long time ago, but people should know about it anyway 🙂

[smoky quest]

starting a new company with other coworkers from the same company is definitely a gray area that requires some lawyering

[white relic]

Yeah, it depends on the exact terms of your employment.
Also on whether or not the former employer cares about your skills. If your whole team has been outsourced/made obsolete, and they pick up and move elsewhere, that's a little different than just getting fed up with management

[smoky quest]

There are also cases where the company will play ball too. Cisco is famous for investing in the employees departing to make their startups to then acquire them down the line. Hortonworks also started by the ceo going to yahoo's ceo and giving an ultimatum when leaving with a whole team (you either fund us and can get some return or we leave anyway)

[neon fiber]

I Have Expiernce but no degree

[tall thorn]

Same … I have alot of experience in C++ and C#(abt 5years) but no degree… cuz I’m 15 but I would like to get an internship lmao

[spark cobalt]

How old? What location?

[tall thorn]

15 😂

[spark cobalt]

I read it the first time

[tall thorn]

Aight bro 😢

[near ocean]

You dont have experience if you havent worked and being 15 you obviously havent worked for 5 years
Experience is work experience

[deft charm]

Hey, guys

So I worked for our school robotics team and participiated at several competitions as FLL, Azercell Cup, Teknofest, Steam Azerbaijan Fest

And Mars Algorithms Competition.

Do these count as Work Experience or not?

Btw, only Azercell Cup is not international

[near ocean]

Competitions are not work experience, no
You might be able to put being part of a school team under experience but thats iffy as well

[deft charm]

I got you

[near ocean]

You should still list them in your cv, but i would put them under Hobbies, Hackathons/Competitions or Personal projects

[deft charm]

Thank you 🙂

[cunning copper]

hi everyone!
what would you say is a good learning path for an absolute beginner to get into Python for Data Analysis, ML, AI etc

[gilded valley]

when i didn't have any professional work experience, I just had a header of "Work Experience & Competitions" in which I included 2 the part time jobs I'd had and some random school competitions I'd done well in

[peak halo]

if your goal is to work in that space professionally, the learning path needs to involve a degree

[olive prairie]

Theres been a massive wave of layoffs in tech lately (https://www.npr.org/2022/11/14/1136659617/tech-layoffs-amazon-meta-twitter https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/09/tech-layoffs-2022.html https://www.theverge.com/2022/11/14/23458204/meta-twitter-amazon-apple-layoffs-hiring-freezes-latest-tech-industry). Is tech still worth getting into? and how will the recession impact prospects in this field? I want to know before committing myself fully to a tech career

[white relic]

"tech" is more than just FAANG.

[olive prairie]

right but FAANG trends follow industry trends

[white relic]

what industry would that be?

[olive prairie]

and the issue isnt that FAANG is laying off people im more concerned behind the reasons why so I dont see how pointing out that they are FAANG is relevant

[white relic]

I used to work in defense. Now I work in manufacturing. Do I not work in tech?

I'm probing the definition of "tech"

[olive prairie]

lets say software engineering in general

"people whose main priority and job role is writing or maintaining software"

[white relic]

many software engineers do not work in the software industry

[peak halo]

I'm not an economist, but I think the problem is that large tech companies that have already achieved market dominance in their area are desperate for options to cut costs. What other room do they have for growth?

I used to work for Starbucks, and July always has the lowest sales of any month (students not in school, professionals taking vacations, people not wanting hot drinks as much), so every summer they'd do staggering labor cuts (below what was still needed to run the store) to make the quarter report look good.

[olive prairie]

right but lets not split hairs and restrict the topic to software engineers who work in the software industry. According to https://layoffs.fyi/ 789 companies so far have had layoffs across the industry. It seems like we are at the beginning of a recession, with inflation hitting record rates im interested in how this will impact career prospects in the coming future

[olive prairie]

that could be the case but other journalists are speculating that its the cause of the looming recession

I have no degree in economics nor have formally studied the subject so I cant do much more than speculate

[peak halo]

well, yes. and the (looming?) recession drives cost-saving measures. especially if you have minimal room for growth in the first place.

[olive prairie]

so how do you think this will continue to play out?

[olive prairie]

the list also includes many other companies which arent at market dominance as well

[peak halo]

I don't really know

[gilded valley]

some of the biggest tech companies in the US are laying off a lot of people. Venture capital funding around the world is slowing down massively, meaning start-ups and scaleups are also having to lay people off at the highest rates in the last decade.

Tech also dominates in advertising (Google, social media) and consumer discretionary (streaming services, online retail) which are two things that suffer in a recession - and a recession is widely accepted as inevitable meaning that companies are planning for that crunch.

Arguing against tech layoffs being a trend seems bizarre to me

banks also do terribly in recessions - and they're the biggest non-tech industry employer of software engineers

[olive prairie]

so is the industry doomed? At least for the forseeable future?

[white relic]

allow me to rephrase.
If you are concerned about the future of software engineering as a career, looking at major players in the software development industry is at best 10% of the whole picture.

[gilded valley]

absolutely none of what i said maps to the tech industry being doomed

[olive prairie]

right but my original question is about that industry and about that job role

[white relic]

Taxi companies laying off people doesn't mean a bad outcome for people who know how to drive

[olive prairie]

so how do you think things will play out?

Im in a position right now where Im considering working in software engineering within the industry so the situation seems bleak to me right now

[gilded valley]

probably fairly similar to 2008 and the dotcom bubble - things suck for a few years then recover

[gilded valley]

what's your alternative?

[olive prairie]

academia 💀💀💀 or engineering maybe. But Ive always wanted to do software engineering

[gilded valley]

what makes you think engineering isn't being cut as well?

[olive prairie]

not sure, which is why im asking specifically for software right now

seeing that this is a python server. Im also looking into electrical/mechanical engineering

[gilded valley]

clearly technology isn't doomed - the question of "is it worth pursuing a software engineering career?" only makes sense in the context of setting it against some set of alternatives

[olive prairie]

but I do have a good few years before Ill be work force ready so just interested in the upcoming predictions for software

[gilded valley]

is your question more accurately "if I do a CS degree, will I be able to find a job when I graduate in 4 years time?"

[olive prairie]

sure if you want to put it that way

[gilded valley]

the answer to that is - probably you will, yes, it might take a little more effort than it did for someone graduating in 2017, but it's unlikely that you will find it impossible

[olive prairie]

you think things will get better in 4 years time?

[gilded valley]

I've also been assuming you're in the US throughout this entire conversation - I have no idea how it changes for different countries

[olive prairie]

yeah I am

[gilded valley]

I don't say that - it's not like no one anywhere is going to be hiring junior software engineers though

[olive prairie]

right, makes sense. Thanks for taking the time to answer me then.

[delicate bane]

well for academia, youll need an advanced degree, so theres that. also many of the traditional engineering folks i know ended up one way or another transitioning to software engineering but theres def bias in that perspective so take that into account.

[scarlet sedge]

Hey how is everyone? Just wanna know is there anyone who would like to give names of companies that is known for taking first time inexperienced interns? Searching for internships has been hard especially as an international student. 😭

[dense mesa]

I studied engineering, that's definitely falling off

[topaz quail]

Anyone know any good alternatives to "notion" for organization? Like using 365 and a bunch a other sources, data, notes etc

[gritty rivet]

What do you like/not like about Notion? I know a lot of people who like OneNote. Personally I love Org mode in Emacs but at work I mostly use Confluence and other shared tools

[topaz quail]

Mainly looking for integration to a ton of things, such as outlook or other random data. for example, i should be able to use an addon in outlook to add this to a dashboard, and i should be table to tag it

[analog sun]

OneNote can integrate with Outlook pretty well

[spark cobalt]

That would be most, if not all, intern roles..

[spark cobalt]

Just like any industry, as the older people begin to retire, companies will need to start picking up new people. While currently you can argue there's a level of saturation or competitiveness in entry level roles, as companies at the moment aren't able to justify the cost to take the risk on newer developers, that only calls for an increased demand in the future.

Not a matter of the industry, moreso a matter of the underlying economy. The industry is innately safe for the years to come.

[spark cobalt]

While Google started off as a search engine, expanded to YouTube and other things like WayMo, as time is going on, more and more of their newer ideas are not becoming successful or hits. Decreasing organizational inefficiency because new ideas aren't working out.

For Meta, they kept dumping money into VR during a time when people are trying to escape virtual and go back to the real world.

Amazon had a couple of projects which I don't think they are able to compete with the major titles we have now. So things like online education, physical stores, etc.

Netlfix laid people off earlier this year. For obvious reasons.

Once big name companies take the headlines for doing layoffs (because of increased inefficiencies generally), other tech companies eventually follow the bandwagon to lay off for any of their own specific reasons.

No one wants to be singled out. But if everyone else does it, damn they'll do it too.

[spark cobalt]

If you want to specialize in the "right field" for the upcoming future, a lot of these companies cut entire departments or projects. Just avoid those if you wanna play it safe.

[frail oasis]

Hi

i need help.. how i can do that.......................... Write a program to generate a table of conversions from Celcius to Rankin. Allow the ‎user to enter the starting temperature and increment between lines. Print 25 lines in ‎the table. Use a for loop in your solution. Rankin= C × 9/5 + 491.67.‎

[hearty island]

i'm wondering if i should call the recruiter who accepted me from my last internship that was cancelled

and just ask about internship opportunities at the company bc i applied to a ton there and was wondering if she could put in a word for me

but then again i don't know if i should because the reason it was cancelled was because i missed my drug test

but if i never call i'll never find out if she'll help me or not

it's probably a terrible idea

[peak halo]

Their goal is to make sure that openings get filled, so you might as well. What bad thing do you think is going to happen?

[hearty island]

that i'm blacklisted from their internship pool

[peak halo]

so you think you might not be blacklisted currently, but that you will be added to the supposed blacklist once you call the recruiter?

because if you're already blacklisted (and we don't even know that there is a blacklist), then you can't really make it worse by talking to them

[hearty island]

alright i'll give them a call, thanks stel

[hearty island]

holy shit, holy fucking shit

[hearty island]

IT WORKED STEL

she was like i'm so happy you're calling me and then she's inviting me to the first round interview

[mortal wedge]

Excellent, congratulations!

I'll share a story here. This may not be a usual thing, so please don't read too much into it, but I think there's still a valuable lesson to be learned, so here goes:

I was trying to update my resume on a company's career site and accidentally withdrew my application to the position and was unable to reapply. Even though I felt pretty embarrassed and awkward, I emailed HR and explained what happened. They took a look at my new resume and decided to send it directly to the hiring manager.

I'm not saying this should be a practiced thing you do, but if there's a job you really want and you have some sort of complication in applying, reach out to the company.

[glacial crater]

probably because you had a nice resume but also more importantly, you showed interest in the job and put a bit more effort in it than the minimum needed

[hearty island]

yeah, they even let me apply to my old position that i lost last summer

[mortal wedge]

Nice!

Doesn't hurt to reach out. Best case you score, worst case you get ignored and you're only back to where you started

[hearty island]

honestly i was shocked she even remembered me

[smoky quest]

• you didn't just fail the interview, you failed a drug test. It's not every day that happens.
• she most likely went back to the notes about you on the ATS

[hearty island]

that's true

[mortal wedge]

I think I already know the answer, but I'll ask just in case... if I'm applying for jobs that mention drug tests, even if it's legal in my state I should probably lay off the weed for the time being?

[delicate bane]

my job didnt even mention drug tests. they just included it with the background check portion

but they also did it for an internship position and then i didnt have to do any additional testing/paperwork when i converted to FT

[gritty rivet]

I would. You can try to use that defense if it comes up, but a good outcome is more likely if it never comes up in the first place

If this is a job with ongoing random screening that's another story, but often it's just a one-time thing

[mortal wedge]

I'd have to get paid a LOT to work at a company that has ongoing screening for what in my state is a legal substance.

[hearty island]

i'm not missing a drug test this time (assuming i pass all rounds for the internship)

[dusky cipher]

any idea what is better unity or unreal engine im thinking of being a game dev

[gritty rivet]

You might get more opinions over in #game-development

[peak halo]

neither of those are Python, so I'm not sure that you'll get a good answer here. If someone forced me to learn one or the other, I'd pick Unity, because I think C# would be easier to learn.

[dusky cipher]

Thanks!

[brave matrix]

Which state do you live in?

[gritty rivet]

!rules 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[gritty rivet]

@glad lance

[glad lance]

oh sorry

[gritty rivet]

Then please delete it 🙂

[glad lance]

I'll let mods delete it

[leaden jasper]

You can just delete it next time. I'll re-iterate that this server is not a place for recruitment.

[buoyant seal]

in which country u a, where u can ask questions like that? xD in many countries in the world any form of drug possession and usage is illegal.
Except when it was explicitely written as a medical treatment/recipe by officially certificated doctors.

[mortal wedge]

California

[true harness]

a lot of states in the US legalized a specific plant, but it's still illegal federally. so govt jobs will definitely care about it

[mortal wedge]

United States

[buoyant seal]

as expected. https://youtu.be/TYHO0-0W5To

[quartz aspen]

Drink a lot of water and it should be like 3 weeks till you're clear. But remember that jobs who list that, might do the tests when you work with them as well.
AFAIK the US is weird with weed. Because each state can legalize it, but somehow it's in conflict with federal law because they didn't change it, so by federal law it's illegal... Find local laws regarding medical marihuana use and if employer can fire you if you have a certificate you're a medical marihuana user.

[delicate bane]

for you when you become an architect.

https://vinvashishta.substack.com/p/advice-for-senior-ics-and-leaders

[buoyant seal]

Not really. This is for management(tech) path, my path is not related to it directly. Only pretty much indirectly.

[buoyant seal]

due to it being.. management path advices... they have way more stressed to show... you know... soft skills in their resume.
For my case there is literally no need to it. My resume can be purely technical and still be great. besides pure tech my resume-path needs only stuff regarding how well... i get translating business stuff to tech.

I pretty much hope, i will not be manager ever. Not sure if i ever wish being manager Let me return to this question in 5 or 10 years later xD

[true harness]

honestly, same. being a leader is cool sometimes but i want to write code lol

[delicate bane]

no this is for IC route too

it literally says senior++ IC lol

[buoyant seal]

https://medium.com/meta-research/finding-your-way-management-or-senior-ic-e465daf41893
https://medium.com/@koun/to-ic-and-not-to-be-a-manager-cc92309d6fec
https://blog.tryexponent.com/group-product-managers-vs-principal-product-managers/
https://www.productplan.com/blog/product-management-career/
https://www.productplan.com/learn/product-manager-career-path/

Not super 100% sure, but according to the words IC Product Manager and descriptions of duties like

Contributing to problem and solution discovery efforts by conducting internal stakeholder and customer interviews and research, and developing and running experiments to validate concepts
Driving Agile ceremonies, including planning, grooming, demos, and retrospectives
Writing stories that articulate work to be done by Engineering in support of solutions and production support.
Working closely with Engineering to ensure solutions are ultimately delivered in a timely and cost-effective manner
Working closely with our stakeholder team to understand the business and adapt solutions as it evolves.
Supporting Customer Support, Sales Enablement, and Product Marketing in the development of feature descriptions and new release content
Maintaining a prioritized backlog that aligns with available Engineering capacity and maps to an overall solution roadmap.
Performing validation testing of production releases, bug fixes, and feature requests.

it is not related to my path directly as i said.
It is still Product Manager role.

[delicate bane]

that looks more like Product Manager role which tends to be opposite of IC (this stands for Individual Contributor)

[buoyant seal]

Ergh. There is some small overlap with duties of Product manager... But lets say the are...not the main thing of Software Architect i think

[delicate bane]

from my understanding, roles in tech tend to be either management roles vs. IC roles

i think the software architect is more on the IC side

[buoyant seal]

Sure. u a right. Probably i just don't like article u gave me enough to consider that IC they mention there is in any way related to non-management roles

that would be my honest answer xD

[delicate bane]

yeah the article is more skewed towards leader/management roles only bc the examples he gives are for those roles but you could probably translate the same idea to IC roles

[buoyant seal]

https://dropbox.github.io/dbx-career-framework/ic4_software_engineer.html
Plus u can see that technically technical roles are ended at Senior / which IC3-4 there
So with article mentioning Senior++, it can be already long time non technical role

[delicate bane]

eh i think when he says senior++, it just means more than 10+ YOE

which can apply to many roles/positions

but his premise of how if you have that many YoE, your strategy to obtain jobs should def be different than junior/entry or even intermediate level jobs, seems correct to me

[eager crescent]

anyone know why pip doesnt work

[delicate bane]

hi you could try checking out #❓｜how-to-get-help for this type of problem. thanks!

[eager crescent]

sure

[buoyant seal]

Ergh, i think the article is clearly meant to Leader/manager audiency, even if they mention IC. I still highly suspect it is some form of non-trivial management level of work in the context of the article.

[delicate bane]

hmm we are probably both biased on our respective sides but you are probably right that it leans more towards management side

[buoyant seal]

screw management xD

i mean, if u like to be manager, sure, to everyone their own stuff to like. Just don't drag me into it

[delicate bane]

i think a big takeaway though is if you have that many YoE, who you report to will most likely be either executive or C-level in many cases - regardless of whether you are manager or IC

or maybe director or VP level at a bigger company

just depends i guess

[buoyant seal]

years of experience value nothing. I can give you awesome example regarding that. Prepare to be... surprised

[delicate bane]

idk if i want to be manager either. i would like a role i can try out 50/50 and decide afterwards lol

[delicate bane]

well yeah there are some people at my company that have been here forever that have not really moved up much...so...

but this is more relevant for if you are ambitious i guess

[buoyant seal]

@delicate bane

Heya, I'm Gene.

I want to change the world. I want to build something that actually makes the world a better place.

If the underlying purpose isn't fulfilling a physiological need, please do not contact me.

My resume lives @ gr4.us/resume.htm - i screen calls. Please don't abuse me 😦

NWOCA was an amazing time in which I got to administrator a platform as a service while helping an Internet Service Provider; ansible + gitlab was developed, and I was an early adoption of Netbox as datacenter modeling tooling rather than simply DCIM

I was able to help provide Internet access to tens of thousands of students in a school districts across my region and ensure additional services were online and available; esxi + san setup with some vendor management

I'm specifically looking to work at a Moonshot, if you're at X company please reach out to me, I'd love to join your team in.

I'm not going to be on the job market for long; a year or so at the most is the plan [before serving the public]. I'm not chasing resource tickets, but my time is valuable to me and if my time is constrained against my will, I expect to be paid very nicely for it.

My background is very diverse;
Linux administration, Microsoft administration, networking, and security. Oh, I also can write/read code, but I'm not that great at optimizing bit shuffling because I'm not a computer science nerd. I just like telling computers to do work for me and them doing it because I speak their language. It helps be lazy, yaknow?

Anywho, if you're looking for a human, I'm here! 👋 
(EST, 4 day work week, 32 hour max / week, 4 week paid vacation leave, >$140k/yr);

Oh, yeah, I'm super active in politics, so it might be where I dip from work to go testify in D.C. or Columbus [you'll get at least 24 hour notice]

https://gr4.us/resume.htm (check link too)
Here you go... person with 9 years of experience, and... at least bachelors degree! Requesting >140k$ year salary.

[delicate bane]

wow where did you even find this

[buoyant seal]

he just joined my favourite discord DevOps server and introduced himself + job posted himself in the relevant channel there

[delicate bane]

hmm i have some thoughts but i will keep them to myself

lets just leave it at that

[buoyant seal]

xD exactly my thoughts. I was very tempted to say something to him, but decided the same.

[delicate bane]

you and i both have similar thinking

[spark cobalt]

Can you invite me?

[buoyant seal]

https://www.dsicommunity.org/ Sure, it is a very cozy place

[spark cobalt]

Tyty. Doing a bit of DevOps work for work

Gonna be lots of fun I think

Entire CICD project we have is only done by one person atm and they're getting me on board

[buoyant seal]

Sure, that's how it started for me too xD and now i can't imagine myself not going at least for good half in this direction

[spark cobalt]

Do you have any books you recommend for someone getting into this whole thing?

[buoyant seal]

Sure. The first book

[spark cobalt]

[buoyant seal]

https://www.nginx.com/resources/library/complete-nginx-cookbook/
Get to know your web server / reverse proxy, it can do plenty of stuff

[buoyant seal]

Where do you have your infra at the moment (cloud provider)? in which way deployment strategy? What are u using for infrastructure as a code?
(And what are you using for git cloud provider) / Which CI CD tool is used

[spark cobalt]

I just got into a meeting regarding my move today so don't know a lot. I know it's AWS for sure but our company heavily deals with the other providers as well (azure, gcp, oci, onprem) that I don't think it's just a single one. Lemme see

It's not only for us, but product for others.

[buoyant seal]

Not sure what u use for infra code, but if terraform, then it is very useful for AWS
https://miro.medium.com/max/500/1*h4GXC3c71AusCmCy3_HM8g.jpeg

[spark cobalt]

Oh my last project used a lot of that

Lemme go through the maze of Confluence pages

[buoyant seal]

Terraform is great xD

or at least there is just no better alternative 🙂

[spark cobalt]

Yeah Terraform.

This is a lot to unpack

[buoyant seal]

Curious. he is author of two books, the second one is

THE "HELLO, WORLD" TUTORIAL FOR BUILDING A STARTUP.
This book will teach you how to build products, technologies, and teams in a startup environment. It's based on the experiences of the author, Yevgeniy (Jim) Brikman, as well as interviews with programmers from some of the most successful startups of the last decade, including Google, Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, GitHub, Stripe, Instagram, AdMob, Pinterest, and many others.

If you're at all interested in startups, this book is for you.

[spark cobalt]

[buoyant seal]

Quite catching description

I will add it to my read list

[noble kettle]

hii
I am commerce student who started learning python after graduation
It's 1.5 year now since i started learning python now i m looking for job.
i have knowledge of python, html5, css3, flask, python libraries like turtle beautifulsoup and more

[untold cape]

Hello I have one question,is it necessary to get college degree to pursue programming or learning it yourself would be better option?

Thanks to anyone who suggest the right path for me

[spark cobalt]

You can pursue programming without a degree. However for career stability and generally having more options presented to you, having the degree would be better.

Second issue just comes with current market for entry level developer not looking good, there is the essence of competing as a no experience no degree person is almost impossible.

(It's possible. For example I graduated from high school 5 months ago and work as a full time dev right now. But it's ridiculously difficult and has a fuckload of problems that come with doing this path. )

[untold cape]

It's better to have college degree then . Thanks for ur advice

[spark cobalt]

Yep absolutely. Nw

[untold cape]

One small question which according to your opinion is best course?

[spark cobalt]

I had my own reasons to do non-college course. But the general motivation in getting a stable and solid career, I would suggest college being the best course.

[untold cape]

Thanks

[vapid jay]

Hello there, I need to do some discussion about my career. I want to become a software engineer and I am already familiar with coding. I have been learning to code since 2020 and have worked on a lot of personal projects. Python is my only programming language although I have some good skills in JavaScript, I even created an app with react native. I am a high school student.
My main preference is backend development, now I need advice regarding what to learn next or what to do. Should I stick to python and master its frameworks like django? Since a lot of people are learning python there will be a huge competition right? Or should I learn another language like Go or Rust?

[spark cobalt]

Depends on what field of the industry you want to go to. Then learn the commonly used language/tool/frameworks that they use nowadays.

[balmy mural]

If you're a high school student, focus on your current classes, do well, then go for a CS degree

I'd suggest just having fun with learning, but if you want to target a specific role, start by looking at backend jobs in your area, what they use and work backwards from there

[buoyant seal]

as a backend developer who researched market, i can say that for backend Python and Java are highly dominating the market and having big amount of jobs, rich ecosystem, amount of devs to it.

I would recommend that first language should be popular, because... popular language means = big amount of job vanacies too.
It will be reliable way to find a job.

Once u became professionally experienced in this language, then it would be safe to learn some more unortodox language as a next one
from my point of view

[buoyant seal]

Clarification, i consider language learned to sufficient level in order to move to next one, when u learnt...

1. Syntax from basics to advanced features (Python Expert Programming 4th edition is cool one)
2. Very comfortable with code architecture in this language, doing OOP/design patterns stuff/clean architecture, how to test your code
3. Learned best practices of a language (hehe, not catching generic Exception in python with pass to ignore them, and not using dictionaries as a main data carrier around your code since it lacks any data integrity checks)
4. Learned ecosystem of how to use your language, from linters and frameworks to interaction with different cloud objects https://github.com/donnemartin/system-design-primer (postgresql, message queues and etc)
5. work experience of necessary amount is present (year at minimum, highly likely more)

[white relic]

When you're in high school and college, I think it's better advice to learn a few different programming languages, because you don't know what's out there yet and you have time to spend on broadening your experience. Don't just learn the one major language you think you'll get a job in 4-7 years down the line.

You dont need to be a professional Python developer before trying to learn Go.

[buoyant seal]

@vapid jay and i 'll comment his stuff, that since u are in uni, it will be good ideas to try different languages... in order to find with which u are more comfortable. Enjoy matters after all.

[buoyant seal]

Job Market of golang is very low. Not very good option as a first language. Plus i suspect there is a common trend of people asking for Golang developers who learned it as a second language in general, in order to have... more experienced devs taking upon tasks in it.

[white relic]

I just said Go because they mentioned it specifically and it's easier than Rust.

[buoyant seal]

Plus in general Golang is a very unorthodox language

[white relic]

The point is that when you're in high school you don't have to pick the one language you'll use for your entire career. There's more to life than backend

[buoyant seal]

Rust is more system/hardware level language, not really great candidate for backend.
Surely working option, but not very common candidate

[ancient crater]

How can get into the job with python on linux OS.

Please guide me ?🙄

[white relic]

That's what makes it such a good idea to learn it

[buoyant seal]

i believe first language learned professionally should be more orthodox.
And since we are in Python server, i would claim python is great to iterate faster and to learn faster xD

[white relic]

Your advice earlier reads to me like you are advising them not to learn any language other than Python until they have professional experience

[buoyant seal]

There is a thing with... Programming with language, and progrraming with what language allows.
With learning some normal language first like Python or Java, they will learn to bend their way around other language limitations, and delivering to program what they need.
That's why i think Golang is a really bad first choice

[white relic]

I learned several languages during college. I didn't know at the time which ones would be useful in my career

[buoyant seal]

actually i recommend learning Python or Java for first one in backend professionally

[white relic]

I never said "first choice"

[buoyant seal]

u can learn several languages during college. Whatever. i say learning professionally
It is very different from learning at a very crappy level during university/college

[buoyant seal]

I recounted, what i consider learning for professional usage in terms of backend that he seeks

[white relic]

when you are in high school you have no control over what your first job will be, so you're not learning anything "professionally"

[buoyant seal]

determination and having goals increase likelyhood many times to what job u will have.
pet projects alone concentrated being done in this chosen language will increase job hiring chances 10 times in comparison to your other university-level langauges

[white relic]

you know what else increases your chances of getting a great first job?
Knowing multiple languages.

[buoyant seal]

no. not really. unless u have nothing else

[white relic]

have you ever hired someone

[lapis wind]

Personally I gotta recommend something either like Python or C# to start with, C#'s strict typing will be useful.

I'm not a fan of recommending go as a first language, i'd probably recommend it more as a language that you'd just learn if your work wants you to after you have some existing knowledge.

I think when you're first getting started with programming fundamentals, the top things you probably do not want to be presented with which go does is:

• Generic exist but aren't encouraged realistically.
• Most people want to learn some OOP, which sure go has some concepts of OOP but it's hardly the same as Java, Python, C++, C#, etc...
• You basically never go near working with language inter-operability unless in extreme cases because C interoperability is pretty painful compared to just pure go.

[buoyant seal]

feel free to believe into anything.

[buoyant seal]

great advices.

[white relic]

I'm arguing against the idea that you shouldn't learn any language other than Python until you are "professionally experienced"

[buoyant seal]

then u are arguing based on wrong ground, because i recommended Java too.

[white relic]

High school and college are the best time of your life to learn a variety of things because they are when you have the most free time.

[lapis wind]

I'd probably say learn either Python, C# maybe Java when you first start.

[buoyant seal]

Java i think is better counterpart to C#, because Java is not locking you into microsoft and windows. Better option for backend because of being more Linux friendly and more wide in usage for Linux / richer Linux ecosystem

[lapis wind]

You don't have to be professionally experienced to learn other languages, but I'd say you want to learn 1 language to the point where you know programming fundamentals first before learning another.

[white relic]

"programming fundamentals", yes. "professionally experienced", no

[lapis wind]

C# ecosystem sucks yeah, but I think the current Dot NET core setup makes it a little bit more beginner friendly than Java getting started, but yeah, i think either probably works.

[near ocean]

I think theres some really extreme categorization going on regarding langs and tech, kinda feels like a tier list and life is never this discrete
Look at your local job market before you decide, go to university, learn as much as you can with as much depth as you can

The java advice might work well if youre wherever darkwind is but not wherever you are, same with the c#/python advice

Also roadmaps are overglorified hints at very vague things you should learn, you could follow one 100% of the way and still not land a job

[delicate bane]

oh yeah def finding some markets have different languages than others. even by industry sometimes

[errant fog]

good afternoon, i'm beginner in python, need i of to go to college for to work in python ?

[gritty rivet]

You will almost certainly have better career outcomes if you do go to college then if you don't. There's no reason to choose to play on hard mode if you don't really need to

[spark cobalt]

Yeah Go as a first language is terrible.

[buoyant seal]

python and java is in general highly popular in the world though. They take a major amount of world wide market.
So... once u reach a level where u can work with abroad customers => it will not matter already from which country u a too much

[near ocean]

Thats not something someone entering the field can do in the vast majority of cases
First start with whats local and then figure out the next career step

[spring wing]

h

i

[spark cobalt]

As long as you're learning a language that has most general programming language features, then I think it's fine.

I'd just say Python first as you can spend more time learning the concepts.

[spring wing]

true

[spark cobalt]

Once you have the concepts down, learning new languages shouldn't be a problem as you start working on projects related to the field you wanna get into.

[vapid jay]

I really love to work with rust

[cobalt cargo]

Hello, community. Could you please recommend a good course about SDET with Python or a useful road map, on how to become a SDET specialist? Thanks.

[buoyant seal]

Surely great language, but its market share for backend is tremendously small.
50 times less job vacancies than for python or Java.

[vapid jay]

hmm, do you suggest me sticking with python?

[buoyant seal]

Java or Python (or even Typescript)

[vapid jay]

can i not learn java? i am okay with anything except java

[buoyant seal]

Those languages take big market share in backend, should be good for job entry.
Check your local hiring web sites for amount of jobs

[buoyant seal]

Sure.

[vapid jay]

for jobs in bangladesh, python, java and c# are good options. c as well

[buoyant seal]

My current plan after Python to go to Golang. They pair well in assets of one Dev for backend

[vapid jay]

;0

[spark cobalt]

Going to Go as well soonTM

[buoyant seal]

C# is Microsoft Windows tied too much. Bad choice for backend. Poor Linux ecosystem support, which is very necessary for web development

[vapid jay]

hmm, okay no c# then, i am sticking with py and django

[buoyant seal]

U could pair python with Rust after that too.

[vapid jay]

could you tell me more about that?

[buoyant seal]

It is possible even launching Rust directly from Python, with sharing memory of objects. Directly transferring without serialisation.
Python Expert Programming 4th edition gives C examples at least.

Plus in web development common to go microservices. Some of your ecosystem could be working in rust if necessary

[spark cobalt]

Django popular in Bangalore?

Oh Bangladesh mb*

[buoyant seal]

xD we can even launch golang from Python
https://medium.com/analytics-vidhya/running-go-code-from-python-a65b3ae34a2d

[vapid jay]

i dont think so

[vapid jay]

with that pyo2 module?

[buoyant seal]

https://github.com/PyO3/pyo3 ?

[vapid jay]

yea

[buoyant seal]

Sure, looks fitting option. I am not rust Dev though

[spark cobalt]

[neat thicket]

hey guys, where can i find international programming internships for applying?

[digital fjord]

there isn't really a central place afaik, you just have to go to each companies website and see if they have any.

[near ocean]

You keep saying this but 90% of the London webdev jobs are C#
Who says dotnet is a bad choice for backend?

[peak halo]

"international" might be a bit of a long shot, because you have to be eligible to work in the company's country

[buoyant seal]

Poor Linux ecosystem. Too much tied to Windows. Working as a web developer with stuff majorly launchable only in Windows Servers is to doom your own career.

[digital fjord]

I know 2 very successful engineers who are experts in oracleDB and MSSQL respectively, I would strongly disagree that you need to know the mainstream technologies to have a meaningful career.

[buoyant seal]

That would be survivor bias ;b People at the nearest DevOps server are usually screaming in agony from needs to deal with oracleDB.

[buoyant seal]

U don't need to know mainstream technologies, but dooming yourself with not scalable Windows OS for web dev, is a really bad choice (and other proprietary tech)

It would be nice not encouraging developers into direction of... bad technologies.. So that some stuff would die quicker. Like Jenkins. or COBOL. Some stuff is supposed to die.

[near ocean]

Thats literally an opinion and not based on fact or what the market around us uses

[digital fjord]

I disagree that C# backends are somehow a doomed technology, it's second only to JS at least locally, even among startups. And whether the technology is "good" is not relevant IMO, what matters is if it's something you can get paid to work with.

[buoyant seal]

Oh well... More than half of market is overtaken by Jenkins 😐

[buoyant seal]

Ergh... To each their own stuff.
I need usually some serious justification to learn proprietary tech.
Like AWS, horrible untyped documentation, greedy prices with strategy to tie into their ecosystem and never let go, yet unavoidable for its feature richness and lack of alternatives besides gcp and Azure

[buoyant seal]

I prefer to learn first tech/database which will remain with me always, and I can learn it to each smallest detail in my free time (like Postgresql)

FOSS to the world 🌎 xD

[buoyant seal]

I will prefer to mitigate damage made by AWS, by going AWS EKS first. Most of my code will not be tied to AWS specifics then. More code ownership will remain to me in regards to my infrastructure

That alone keeps me opened to migrate with lesser cost to alternative solution

in majority of cases those choices lead to better horizontal scalability... Linux is horizontally scalable, Windows is not.

[digital fjord]

that's lovely, but we are talking about careers, and most shops care more about functionality and support than FOSS

[mortal wedge]

What's FOSS? First Out Second.... Sucks?

[summer roost]

Free and Open Source Software

[mortal wedge]

That makes far more sense, thank you

[lapis wind]

pyo3 my beloved

[dreamy shadow]

Might be a dumb question but:
"I understand that <company> may contact my previous employers and I authorize those employers to disclose to <company> all records and information pertinent to my employment with them."

Previous employers here is defined as all employers but where I currently work right? Just want to double check, as I've clearly had some places contact my current employer in the past.

[smoky quest]

Safest thing is to ask them as to avoid any confusion

[balmy mural]

You might discourage developers from using it, but if it's what the job market demands, they'll still have to learn it on the job

[dreamy shadow]

Ok, I'll email the recruiter to clarify.

[leaden jasper]

From my experience, they explicitly ask if it's okay to contact your current employer. But I also don't work in the software dev industry

[buoyant seal]

Market still demands COBOL developers across US... Will u recommend to anyone to become COBOL Dev? They are very in demand in their legacy of fintech

[dreamy shadow]

I'm thinking also this is the case since above there's a specific section of "Current employer" and is a question "Current employer Yes/No" in the work history section too.

[leaden jasper]

But if they have a generic "may contact previous employers" without specifically asking about current employer. I would play it safe or clarify "yes to these companies/orgs except ..."

[near ocean]

C# and dotnet are not legacy though