career-advice

[spark cobalt]

Haven't done them. Heard they're pretty fun!

[summer zealot]

yeah . i think u should try it. working along with unknown people or friends is really facinating

and the best part is that they have goodies too

[spark cobalt]

I mean I'm kinda doing that everyday

[summer zealot]

yeah. after all u deal with problems everyday

u know i started coding when i was in ninth grade and i built a program to calculate physics and chemistry equations so that i could cheat in my online exams 🤣

while all my classmates were making whatsapp grps for cheating

[balmy mural]

How much time do companies normally give to sign an offer when they extend one? Got an offer today, but I only have 2 days to sign it. It's a Junior role

[buoyant seal]

i stretched my received 2 offers signing for 2+ weeks. And rejected after that. But it was for Senior rank

[gritty rivet]

It depends entirely on the situation. If you need more time you can say so, but you're taking a risk in doing so

[balmy mural]

I expect things to be different for senior. 2 days feels extremely short though, and I am at different stages of interviewing with 2 other companies I'm interested in

[gritty rivet]

USA

[gritty rivet]

It is short. It sounds like they're in a rush. If the other leads you have are attractive and promising enough you can take your chances and ask for more time. It basically comes down to how interested you are in the role and how interested you estimate they are in you

[near ocean]

It sounds like theyre trying to pressure you tbh, no one's ever in such rush
And if they happen to be, its a red flag imho

[balmy mural]

It's 2 days for starting in January, so it's not a rush to get me started immediately

[near ocean]

I dont want to say "definitely" but they definitely are trying to stop you from exploring other offers/opportunities

[balmy mural]

I should be having my final interview with the company I'm most interested in tomorrow where we just go over my solutions to a take home assignment.
Would it be a bad idea to mention it to them that I do have a short notice job offer, but would much rather prefer working with them or how soon they would be able to extend a job offer if I'm successful?

[near ocean]

Thats a tough one, how close are they in terms of pay/tech/culture/etc

[balmy mural]

Based on interviews I'd much prefer working with second company and their culture. First is a bit more corporate. Pay should be very similar, possibly slightly better at second company. Similar tech, but more opportunity to grow my skills within the first company

Assuming equal pay I definitely want to go with the second company tomorrow though. So if I do get an offer from them I would take it

[delicate bane]

what the actual... you guys hear whats happening at twitter? this is kinda wild tbh:

[buoyant seal]

it will be funny kind of
imagining killing world wide company in the first 10 days of rulling

[dim pelican]

I believe so. I’ve been with this company for only a year.

[ivory sluice]

but do you think you now have more PTO than the most senior employees?

bc that's what I want :P

I know one employee that has the most PTO in our company but that's bc she negotiated that as part of her original offer

[dim pelican]

Not sure. If accepted that’ll give me “a month” if PTO and “a week” of sick leave. It’s in quotes because I get vacation and sick based on 8 hour M-F shift but I work a variable 12 hour shift. So, if done correctly, 24 hours gives me an entire week off.

[delicate bane]

maybe that was the plan all along? someone may have been bitter they were forced to purchase the company

[delicate bane]

unlimited PTO when

[cosmic jacinth]

366 days paid time off when

[delicate bane]

at places with unlimited PTO, i have heard many peeps never end up actually using their PTO though so thats an issue

[vapid jay]

hi

[wild breach]

Hello everyone!

[buoyant seal]

Not sure if I want it or I am going to abuse it

[cosmic jacinth]

it has clauses precisely to stop it being abused iirc

[spark cobalt]

Heard of companies that give a lot of these benefits, then use it against workers that use them.

[delicate bane]

[ivory sluice]

nah i'd prefer not having unlimited PTO. i currently have 18 days which is the official current maximum. i know that HR/exec team are currently considering upping everyone's current allotment by 1 or 2 days in 2023 and also increasing our holiday count as well (we currently observe 6)

i would love to have like, 25 days (not including the company-wide holidays)

the aforementioned "exception" employee i believe has 21. and they have to create a separate PTO schedule in our payroll system just for her.

[summer roost]

unlimited PTO is a scam. There's nowhere where you actually have unlimited PTO - I guarantee you that if anyone who works at a place with unlimited PTO said that they were going to take the next 11 months off, they wouldn't get 11 moths of paid time off. Which means unlimited PTO isn't unlimited, but they won't tell you what the limit is. There are only 2 reasons for not telling you what the limit is: either they want to apply different limits to different people so that their favorites get extra days, or they want everyone to be afraid that the next time they ask for time off will be the one that's too much and will upset someone. Probably some mix of the two.

[dense mesa]

From a UK tech perspective, biased towards London, I haven't heard of anyone here having unlimited PTO. Anecdotal stuff on reddit/CSCQ/Blind seems to indicate that it's a massive scam as godly said, and I personally haven't come across anything that says otherwise

[cosmic jacinth]

go work in france if you want PTO, the legal minimum is 30 days there

[vapid jay]

MIT and UC berkeley I think

[buoyant seal]

There is one real unlimited PTO. If u a owner of your own company, then u can certainly have it for u 🙂

[near ocean]

I dont think anyone would work for an owner that doesnt show up

Youre just an investor at that point

[buoyant seal]

That is entirely different problems. Unlimited PTO will still be real xD

[vapid jay]

thanks for responding to that message after 11 hours. :)

[vapid jay]

yw sir!

[delicate bane]

this is also what ive heard...companies love lying to peeps huh

[gilded valley]

I know someone who had a fully remote role, but there was an office in London who had unlimited PTO

[spark cobalt]

All these coffee people

[delicate bane]

i heard and idk if this is actually true but european companies tend to have more PTO for their employees than those in the states

[spark cobalt]

Don't companies in general have significantly more worker benefits in Euro

I have a friend in Germany who said they had like 1 month vacation even as an entry level. Idk if that's something enforced by law but it's like sheesh

[delicate bane]

hmmmmm i could see it being so

[ivory sluice]

pretty much every european i've met yes has more PTO than i do lol. i don't bother comparing myself with europeans though

[summer roost]

Europeans will generally both have more paid holidays and more vacation days than their US counterparts.

(and more parental leave, and more severance, and more long-term disability leave, and...)

[gilded valley]

(and considerably lower salaries, even accounting for healthcare)

[spark cobalt]

We have more cash

[summer roost]

yes, that's true. It's not uncommon for US software engineers to have 3x the cash comp of EU or UK ones.

[summer geyser]

Not sure the right wording of this question, but what “type” of developer is this? Like full stack, back end, web, etc.

Languages: PHP, MySQL, C#, JS, React, Swift

[spark cobalt]

Fullstack probably

[summer roost]

yeah, fullstack. That has both backend and frontend techs in the list.

[buoyant seal]

Full snack.

Backend + Frontend + Mobile is present there. Potentially Desktop development too.

Let's say it is IT department

[summer geyser]

Gotcha. I gotta learn all of them before I start haha. I guess I will try to get the most familiar with PHP since that seems to be the most used there. Thanks y’all.

[mortal wedge]

I have unlimited PTO and I never take PTO. Afraid of taking PTO

[buoyant seal]

That will be extremely bad approach. Better to choose specialization u like

[mortal wedge]

I would love to be a full snack developer 🙂

[summer geyser]

Well I have no idea what team I’ll be assigned to or how they decide that

[cosmic jacinth]

yep, the legal minimum in germany is 20 days

[delicate bane]

oh man so this is the trap huh

[spark cobalt]

[sand prairie]

not only maths, physics and chemistry here to become eligible for computer science

[buoyant seal]

i heard india has even biology has as obligated requirement

[sand prairie]

not for engineering

[paper heron]

Here in Canadia we give our employees 4-5 weeks, although a lot of tech companies still try to pull the sneaky 2 week only for new devs

[dim pelican]

From my understanding thats the goal of unlimited PTO

[subtle crown]

hiring python developer that can work with HTTP request libraries

[woven apex]

!rule 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[woven apex]

There are plenty of places for that, like... I believe the python.org site has a job posting page
But this server is not one of those places

[vapid jay]

I am a junior data analyst seeking for new job opportunities in europe. I have applied in numerous firms, no positive response yet .. Its taking long and becoming discouraging ...Any thoughts ?

[peak halo]

Not a European, but what sorts of jobs are you applying to?

[copper ember]

im searching for someone who has made a bootcamp in europe. anyone ?

[smoky quest]

that's like 2am in Paris right now. You may want to try at a different time that is more EU friendly

[copper ember]

lool

same hour here 😛 but had some hope people could be still awake haha

[true harness]

presumably the successful people have a good sleep schedule :P

[copper ember]

I believe so haha

[gilded valley]

I'm deeply insulted

[mortal wedge]

I feel personally attacked

[delicate bane]

oh youre in EU. dunno why i assumed the states. you have a lot of the same overlap time

also wanted to share this. pretty interesting points

[spark cobalt]

We see literally the exact same LinkedIn posts

[mortal wedge]

Nah, I'm US. I just felt personally attacked because my sleep/work schedule is shit, lmao. It's 6:40 pm and I'm still working and I'm going to be working for a while.

[spark cobalt]

I sleep at like 7-9 PM then 4-8 AM

[delicate bane]

yes but i bet you dont read his newsletter like i do. been following vin since forever ago

[spark cobalt]

I don't know the dude I just seen that post

[delicate bane]

lmao. 2 hours later here and im also working.

[spark cobalt]

6:40 here and I still need to finish a code review

[delicate bane]

gotta wrap some things up before PTO on Thursday. ironic right?

when you need to work extra just to take a break. truly tragic

[spark cobalt]

Person did formatting changes AND code changes and I'm looking at 28k lines of added change and 24k of removed change

[mortal wedge]

It's partly that I overpromised, partly because I'm trying to protect another member of my team. I would rather work late than come back with "Well my team member didn't finish their part early enough in the day for me to finish mine" especially if that team member is usually solid

[spark cobalt]

Give me headache. I asked for what were exact changes and she said all of it.

[mortal wedge]

Ooof

[delicate bane]

i feel like i overpromised too. but my deadline is end of quarter. still dont think ill make it tbh. oops. i feel like ive made a junior mistake

[mortal wedge]

I don't recommend doing this, but my unhealthy pattern is that I overpromise and then work like crazy to meet that self-imposed deadline

[spark cobalt]

[mortal wedge]

So while I generally meet it... if I set better expectations I could have a better work/life balance

[delicate bane]

i need to do the opposite. where i underpromise and surprise with results.

the problem is i worry i look like a slacker since im most junior on my team

[spark cobalt]

Better imo to have trend of your due dates always being correct. Even if it's longer, they can assure you'll get it done by then.

You living life on edge

[mortal wedge]

My boss told me that if you're asked to give a deadline, estimate the time as best you can and then double it. Unless it also involves other people, then triple it.

[spark cobalt]

I was told the same thing

[delicate bane]

i think chaos is living more dangerous than me. i still have time to manage expectations. hopefully

[mortal wedge]

The worst case scenario and the reason I'm working late rn is when I promise X date and that's the date I can meet if I and everyone else is working hard, then dozens of unforseen complications arise.

[delicate bane]

there are always surprises

[mortal wedge]

Then it's college coding before the deadline all over again

[delicate bane]

omg flashbacks

[vapid jay]

could I get some opinions?

what's everyone's best/worst things about being a dev?

[mortal wedge]

Hmm. A lot of it is really dependent on your work culture/boss, I think. One of the best things is that your work isn't generally tied to a location/time of day, so you could theoretically work whenever you want and wherever you want. Whether or not you have a company/manager that sees it that way is a different story.

[copper ember]

guys ... for data science would you guys advice pycharm or jupyter ?

[delicate bane]

this is the #career-advice channel. please ask your question in #data-science-and-ml. also .

[copper ember]

you are right! didnt paied attention to the chanel where I was. sorry guys 🙏

[spark cobalt]

I love the work culture and my boss here. I'm rather new to working as a dev so can't really say any negatives.

[vapid jay]

gotcha, thank you. what was your route to your first job if you don't mind me asking? do you have a degree?

[spark cobalt]

Applied a lot. No, I graduated HS 5 months ago.

[vapid jay]

ah gotcha, congrats man

[spark cobalt]

Thanks!

[balmy spade]

I would say the best part of being a dev is that I'm building solutions daily. There's no shortage of problems and no overflow of solutions to them. Makes for some fun, challenging times on a whole.

The worst thing? Probably the disconnect that happens between myself and the business. Hands on keyboard is fun, but I lose the connection with the clients I'm helping and that hurts me a little. If I focus on them I have a great time but lose the focus on being hands on keyboard. So maybe it's the balance I don't like chasing.

[mortal wedge]

This isn't really related to being a dev position per se, but I struggle with the balance of being an individual contributor vs project/team management. I want to be able to control direction for major projects I'm a part of, but don't want to be so bogged down in management work/meetings that I don't get to work on cool things anymore.

[rough reef]

why don't work?

[buoyant seal]

When u a main developer in a small startup, there is no disconnect from business. Quite the opposite, as u need to understand the most in order to translate business requirements to technical requirements

At the same time it was doing tech stuff, instead of meetings.

Going to be remembering with nostalgia the good times

[willow yacht]

Try reading the docs as the python library name sometimes doesn't match the pip name

[balmy mural]

Right, so I have two very similar offers in terms of salary and benefits on the table. One is working on an inhouse product, the other is a wider array of products with more teams and consulting. For someone starting out, which would you suggest? Are there any pros/cons that I might not currently be aware of for either?

There's no wrong choice for me, I would be happy with either job tbh. Just trying to make the final decision now

[analog sun]

I'd say getting the exposure to the wider array of products sounds nice for starting out

[near ocean]

You mentioned one of them is a smaller team/startup while the other is a more established company?

[balmy mural]

Smaller team yes, but not a startup. They've been in their industry for 20+ years

[drifting bear]

I have been working as python developer since few years but I am entirely self-thought (I have a master degree in chemistry). I was thinking to enroll in one of those degree on coursera, e.g. BSc Computer Science and try to do it part-time. Even though I am not sure for the kind of commitment, this is like min 3 years. Do you you have any experience with that? or suggestions?

[near ocean]

If you're already in the industry i dont think you should take yourself out of it for a CS degree
My line manager is also a Chemistry graduate and now he's a fullstack team lead

[rotund crest]

I'm not sure what you would need/want from something like that either.

[drifting bear]

I guess the degree would help me fill CS gaps that I am trying to fill myself. Sometimes is kind of difficult find always answers on your own

[rotund crest]

What kind of gaps?

[delicate bane]

let me know if you end up choosing the consulting route.

[drifting bear]

Computer architecture, databases, networking...I mean I have been reading on this stuff and also did some work. I am just not sure whether a formal education would give you more

[gritty rivet]

If you're going to go back to school I would consider an MSc not a BSc.

[cosmic jacinth]

pain

[near ocean]

What do you do as a dev right now and where do you want your career to go

[drifting bear]

Why is that?

[rotund crest]

I am in a similar situation to yours and I would expect that you have matured beyond the difficulty of undergraduate level courses

[gritty rivet]

You already have a BSc, a second one doesn't add that much value, and unless you're missing a ton of prereqs, the MSc may even require less time and money

[drifting bear]

That's a good point. I am focused on unit and e2e tests. Apart from that I did few back end projects.

[near ocean]

I have a CS deg and I dont think theres anything a professional can learn from it that would help at their job
Maybe as an academic endeavour it could teach you some things but those things you probably wont ever come across on the job

(the job being backend/wevdev related)

[drifting bear]

That is good to know. Thanks

[rotund crest]

Honestly, I see it as a kind of red flag that you wouldn't be looking for a second masters as a minimum with your background.

[drifting bear]

Let's say to apply for a senior developer position in a big company. You need to study a lot of stuff, e.g. DSA, sytem design etc. But I guess you just need to study that stuff by yourself anyway

[near ocean]

Are you a senior dev level though? Is that the level of jobs youre applying to?

[serene kindle]

I was wondering the same thing, in industry without a cs degree

[drifting bear]

I have 5 y experience mainly with python, some c++...not sure whether that defines me as senior

[serene kindle]

Tbh i still feel like getting a cs degree though

[serene kindle]

Good point I'll try study it

If i can't get a job I'll get a degree

I spend all the in between job time with degree

I think cs degree is really important for getting a job at least the undergrad

A lot of jobs put it as a mandatory requirement

[drifting bear]

We could start a study group. Have you worked as developer?

[serene kindle]

Yes

I have 10 years of experience developing but not degree

But i still feel like i need the degree

[true harness]

if you have 10 yoe, why do you need a degree

[serene kindle]

To be fair i failed a lot of algorithm interviews

A lot of jobs put it as the mandatory minimum requirements

If i was super good at algorithm interviews i think i wouldn't need a degree

[true harness]

and almost all will say "or equivalent experience"

[serene kindle]

I guess I can try

[vapid jay]

Has anyone worked with LSTM algorithm

[serene kindle]

Is that a career question

[drifting bear]

Not sure whether just getting the degree would help passing the interview...

[true harness]

wdym? don't you already have experience? how did you get that experience if you didn't apply to jobs?

[rotund crest]

If a degree is your roadblock with 10 years of experience you need to be better about networking. I hate social media and don't have a twitter, instagram etc, but I gained a lot from LinkedIn.

[true harness]

surely networking isn't an issue. you must have had coworkers during those 10 years

[rotund crest]

I consider those coworkers part of networking. It is easy to have a coworker and never keep in touch or follow up.

[true harness]

sure ig, if you're not doing more than saying hello. it's not that hard to be friends with your colleagues

[serene kindle]

Yeah i didn't like the massive number of applying and interviewing it took me to get a job

To be fair it worked somehow but it felt unnecessary

[drifting bear]

@serene kindle with DSA is just matter of solving problem over and over again..Beside there are many courses (the I am also considering) instead of an entire degree of 3-4 year commitment

[serene kindle]

Yeah i passed the DSA interview in the end but it was relatively easy because my job was more low tier

[vapid jay]

everything

[serene kindle]

Ok ok good points

[drifting bear]

@serene kindle This is more affordable, covers DSA and use c++ but I guess is quite basic: Accelerated Computer Science Fundamentals Specialization

[true harness]

you also don't need a paid course. there are plenty of free courses and other ways to learn

[drifting bear]

@true harness Wouldn't help to have an additional degree on you CV?

[true harness]

don't you already have a masters? having more bachelor's degrees is not better, it's just a waste of time

[drifting bear]

Yeah but it's kind of depend on the subject. But I guess you have point there

[rotund crest]

Where did you get your masters degree? Was it at an in-person and thesis based or course based?

[drifting bear]

in-person and thesis based

[rotund crest]

Don't you see that as weird to go backwards from having a thesis supervisor, having to learn on your own, and teaching to taking undergraduate courses with all the inherent guard-rails?

You've already proven some level of independence by getting your masters, people will look right past your (hypothetical) CS degree and towards what you've done with projects etc

[drifting bear]

I do. You kind of convinced me there

[balmy mural]

Will do. I am currently leaning that way. Making final decision tomorrow after talking to more people

[delicate bane]

ok cool. i was in a similar situation before my FT job but the consulting route was vastly underpaid so i chose the other path.

but i think my personality fits more of a consulting environment + i like seeing different types of problems and working with dif types of people.

[delicate bane]

dang fb layoffs today...

at least their severance package is relatively generous. apparently not many companies can offer the same

[balmy mural]

Consulting one here is one of the biggest tech firms in the country and salary is significantly above the average for jr software dev here

[river tundra]

Hi everybody

I'm trying to enter the freelancing market. But I'm having a lot of trouble in the past year getting my first jobs.

I'm mid-level/senior in python-programming and senior in data engineer/GCP. Despite having quite a lot opportunities for standard job position, in the freelancing platforms I've been applying I'm getting a very low rate of success in getting opportunities

Does anybody here would have some tips or experience to share and help me with that?

Thanks in advance

[delicate bane]

noice. thats a pretty big plus

[leaden jasper]

!warn 807551900417130537 This server is not a place for you to advertise or recruit people. Re-read our rules and the topic for this channel.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied warning to @green lantern.

[gritty rivet]

I haven't freelanced in a long time but when I got started on Upwork it was necessary for me to do some very, very low paid tasks to build up my reputation and client base. After that it got easier. But in general it's very competitive and difficult

[copper ember]

anyone who made a bootcamp here? would love to talk with some people who did it

[river tundra]

I'm trying upwork, got a small tutoring job in there, but after that, nothing else :/

I've even offer work for free

[clear loom]

can confirm starting out is the toughest and most disappointing part on upwork and fiverr, it becomes a bit smooth afterwards

[summer roost]

for most jobs, mandatory minimum requirements are a lie. Most places won't reject someone who's been working for 30 years just for not having a CS degree. There are some exceptions where they'll stick hard and fast to arbitrary rules - government jobs come to mind. But applying to positions that you think you're "close enough" to is a good idea, even if you don't meet the listed minimums.

That may be different depending on the country, but that's certainly the case in the US.

and it's true in western Europe as well, so far as I know.

[spark cobalt]

Job description for my job is now MS/PhD and I only have HS degree. Obviously one of the more extreme cases, but yeah very true.

You never know

[clear loom]

so it's all luck then 😭

[spark cobalt]

Aspect of luck to everything

[clear loom]

gonna work hard to increase my luck from now on!

[smoky quest]

It's about convincing them you are worth talking to

[summer roost]

When they wrote the job ad, they were picturing a particular sort of person who could fill it. It's entirely possible that other sorts of people who they weren't picturing could fill it just as well or better - but you need to convince them that, despite not being the sort of person they originally pictured, you're a great fit for the job they're filling.

And on top of that, it's also often the case that they had an ideal candidate in mind when they wrote the job ad, and now that the position has been advertised for several months and they haven't gotten close to hiring any of the candidates, they may be willing to settle for someone less than ideal because any worker is better than no worker, and they're hoping they can train up someone with the missing skills.

[copper ember]

great tip. thanks

[clear loom]

and it is the hardest part because one resume is all you get and it reminds me of that meme where the HR gets a stack of resumes and throws half of them out because they don't want to hire unlucky candidates 💀

[cosmic jacinth]

only half? (/s)

[clear loom]

i honestly want to try cold calling/mailing recruiters, yay or should i directly go for the hiring managers?

[clear loom]

estimated half, more likely 75% 💀

[summer roost]

you'd have better luck with recruiters than hiring managers, I expect. Not least because one recruiter often handles positions for many different hiring managers, and can broadcast your resume to the managers they think it's most relevant to

[wild snow]

Please, i need someone to help write this code in python

[clear loom]

thanks! you guys are absolute gems

[smoky quest]

Fortunately, that's only a meme. That's not how it works in real life

[clear loom]

hopefully 😭

[summer roost]

Despite having an Employee class, that doesn't appear related to a discussion about careers.

See #❓｜how-to-get-help instead

[clear loom]

you never know what's cooking with recruiters and hiring managers, unless of course if you are one

[smoky quest]

I wouldn't stalk people like that.
I would try to develop first a relationship (ex: going to meetups)

[wild snow]

Alright @summer roost
Thanks

[summer roost]

I wouldn't call reaching out to recruiters to try to sell yourself "stalking" - it is literally a recruiter's job to source talent.

[clear loom]

is it really stalking though <_<, and meetups in india are quite a rare sight sadly, at least where i'm located

[summer roost]

Though I agree that it's a bit weird to reach out directly to hiring managers, who have lots of other responsibilities and who expect their prospects to come from recruiters rather than individuals

[smoky quest]

Recruiters wouldn't necessarily know any better.
If you have a few in house recruiters, they will work on specific reqs and would just end up asking you to apply to their website or add you to the pipeline. So pretty low ROI imho

[smoky quest]

virtual meetups, discords, or related projects

[clear loom]

ooh, do you have any links for virtual meetups(discord included)?

[smoky quest]

not specifically. I know of that python discord though.
(It's also very domain specific)

[clear loom]

wait we have virtual meetups?

[summer roost]

That depends on the company - even at my relatively large company, recruiters give out business cards at conferences, and are happy to have a conversation with people who are interested in joining. Granted they will likely redirect you to apply via the website at some point, but they likely can have some sort of conversation with you ahead of that about what skills you have and which departments your skills might be most useful for.

[smoky quest]

oh, there was a , between them. I meant separately.
But I have seen some discords where they do have some tech talks. The together java had some a while ago

[summer roost]

I dunno, I'm not really sure about the ROI compared to just applying via the website, but I doubt any recruiter would find it offputting if someone reached out directly to them. I think the worst case scenario is being gently pointed to the application form on the website.

[clear loom]

i'll be on the lookout for those, thanks!

[smoky quest]

you could also talk to the event team here and volunteer 😉

[smoky quest]

Sure. It falls in the category of "it can't hurt", assuming you are interested in that company.

[summer roost]

yeah, I agree. Probably not worth the effort, but I don't think it could hurt, as long as you're not rude when you reach out.

[peak halo]

Chances are, their hiring system requires there to be an application submitted in your name for them to actually start the hiring process.

[delicate bane]

or ghosted

[summer roost]

that's pretty unlikely, I suspect. Recruiters want to recruit people. There's no upside for them to ghost you, and there is downside (reputational risk, at a minimum)

[delicate bane]

i dont think they do it intentionally. just a nature of being too busy

[summer roost]

Perhaps, but it doesn't seem to take much time to snap off an email saying "Hi $applicant, it's great to hear that you're interested in $companyname! You should apply to any jobs that you're interested in directly on our website at $url. This way your resume will wind up in front of all the right people, instead of just me! Let me know if you hit any problems with the site!"

You may not get the personal response you're looking for, but I'd expect ghosting to be much, much rarer than a stock response directing you to their normal application process.

[delicate bane]

true true

[mortal wedge]

Yeah, recruiters want leads.

[hasty pasture]

Which one is a better long term career Data Analyst or QA Tester .?

[mortal wedge]

That is dependent on so many factors.

[hasty pasture]

Hi how are you bro !

[smoky quest]

data analyst

[mortal wedge]

I don't think I can answer that without telling the future, haha. But if I had to pick, I'd lean towards data analyst. But it depends a lot on field, industry, etc. However, being a QA tester for smart cars for instance could be really exciting, but also doing data analyst for weather prediction models could be extremely exciting as well. I would say stick with whichever excites you more as you're likely to work harder/learn more etc.

[mortal wedge]

I'm doing soso, thanks for asking. How about yourself?

[hasty pasture]

Bet thanks guys ! @smoky quest @mortal wedge

[hasty pasture]

Good bro , you always helping us man haha

[mortal wedge]

I wouldn't have learned Python and started my career without the server, so always try to help however I can 🙂

[hasty pasture]

Which one is harder in your opinion.?

[hasty pasture]

Damm bro What do you do for work .? Your a developer.?

[mortal wedge]

Data analyst probably needs more statistics, while QA tester needs to be very familiar with the automated testing frameworks. Difficult to say which would be harder, depends on the knowledge you already have.

[mortal wedge]

I am a Software Research and Development Engineer in the Neuroscience field.

[hasty pasture]

What if you don’t have any knowledge

[hasty pasture]

That’s dope , how many applications did you put in before you got the first job.?

[mortal wedge]

Well, brains are very interesting things and the truth of the matter is that some things come easier to some people and harder to others. It's hard to say which would be easier/harder to pick up.

[mortal wedge]

...hundreds, if not low thousands. I wasn't a strong applicant due to some things outside of my control, so I really worked hard to learn how the career market worked and to put myself in the best light possible.

[hasty pasture]

Happy for you bro hopefully I can land a job like you one day

[mortal wedge]

Thanks! You can, the skills it takes to land a job and nail an interview are skills like any other, they can be learned and developed. Hang in there 🙂

[hasty pasture]

bet , how long did it took you to learn python .?

[mortal wedge]

Took me about a month, but that's probably not the best benchmark for most people. I wasn't working during the time, I've learned other languages before, and I had just come from learning C++.

[hasty pasture]

oh 1 month that’s crazy man . That’s good

[mortal wedge]

Thanks 🙂 I was motivated by hunger and being able to feed myself, lol

[hasty pasture]

Congrats to you brotha

[mortal wedge]

Thanks!

[copper ember]

searching for people who made a bootcamp. hit me up please. ty

[flat magnet]

Anyone recommend a fast tutorial to cover py I’ve learnt some basics already

[peak halo]

to what end? because no "fast" tutorial about all of Python will substantially increase your knowledge if you already know the basics.

[flat magnet]

I want to focus my attention to software development sir

Pls if u can recommend a guide for me

[dreamy shadow]

tmw: you look up your interviewers and both of them have a PHD.

[peak halo]

Data science/ai position?

[dreamy shadow]

I'm 100% about to get bullied by tough questions.

[dreamy shadow]

"Data Scientist", although the job description screams "DATA ENGINEER" louder.

[peak halo]

DS/AI job titles

[dreamy shadow]

There's the hiring manager, but also a senior DS. I'm 100% scared of the senior DS just by looking at their linkedin lmao.

Maybe I should just go into SWE where the questions are standardized.

[peak halo]

most of the people on my hiring panel were PhDs, and they were nice

don't psych yourself out

[dreamy shadow]

I've seen my company's questions to both undergrad/graduate DS role. For some reason, I feel like the graduate questions were easier.

Undergrad was "explain Monte Carlos" and grad was like "explain cross-entropy".

[woeful spruce]

LinkedIn profiles are highly exaggerated. I wouldn't be intimidated.

[dreamy shadow]

I don't think my undergrad ever went over Monte carlos simulation.

[dreamy shadow]

MS in CS, with focus on computer vision. My intern project was on CV.

and 100% of that was barely getting things to work

[woeful spruce]

They have more experience than you. It is expected.

Doesn't make them supernatural or anything

[mortal wedge]

I'll let you in on a little secret. Depending on when they graduated/finished their PhD, they may have forgotten a lot of what they learned that isn't related to their job. They probably no longer remember how to balance r/b binary trees.

Monte Carlo simulations are fun

[dreamy shadow]

lmao, had to google rb binary trees

It's 45 mins, so I'm expecting a walk through of resume & maybe some detailed questions on projects.

[mortal wedge]

Yeah, that's probably not a coding interview. You don't need multiple people for a coding interview.

[dreamy shadow]

Hopefully won't have any bogus probability questions. I recall nothing.

[woeful spruce]

35 minutes of fluff

10 minutes of real discourse

[mortal wedge]

Don't psych yourself out, try to guess what they might ask you about on your resume and be prepared to speak to any of it.

[dreamy shadow]

I guess I"ll see tomorrow lol. Haven't interviewed in a year, my recruiter call earlier was super rusty.

Yea, 100% going to prepare what I have put on my resume.

[woeful spruce]

Good. You will get practice. Win win

[mortal wedge]

Good luck!!! Try not to stress too much. It helped me when I was rusty to think of it as both parties are trying to gage one another to see if both of you are a good fit for one another.

[dreamy shadow]

I'm going to use this one as practice for the next one I have. I know this positions more of data engineering, which after seeing our 100s of lines of SQL with different left joins, is a nope from me.

[woeful spruce]

Yea. SQL is a necessary evil in my job. I use python when possible though.

[dreamy shadow]

I don't mind pulling data with SQL, but the CTEs and Window functions are things I really never want to touch again.

Not to mention our Hue UI loves to throw a red blank error message at you from time to time.

[woeful spruce]

I only use those once in a blue moon. If I need a CTE, I am probably going to use python instead.

[dreamy shadow]

And that our Presto connection loves to stop working out of the blue too.

[woeful spruce]

I use SQL for simple querying. Once it could get messy, I abort.

[mortal wedge]

I second SQL being a necessary evil for Data Engineers

100s of lines of SQL with different left joins sounds like a nightmare,though

[buoyant seal]

i like SQL. SQL is power!

[mortal wedge]

SQL is surprisingly useful across IT as awhole

I've used some SQL for pretty much any IT job I had

[buoyant seal]

it is universal bullet of backend. Without it complexity of backend applications... will be way greater. And things like CRUD applications would not have existed
May be even CRM crap existed in way less capacity.
Wishing to full capacity learn at last at least just Postgresql It has quite deep learning curve to explore. Which is not required for non DBA people, but still would be nice to know.

[true harness]

a lot of job applications have a question that asks you to list skills. would you recommend to just put a long list with everything for your resume or just put the top few relevant skills? anyone with experience on the hiring side?

context: US, freshman college student, looking for internships.

[mortal wedge]

There's some disagreement on this topic. The best case if you have time is that for the specific internship you're applying for, you list all the relevant skills for the position.

The disagreement comes from when you just have a single template. Some people say only list your best skills, some say list everything. An in-between strategy is to say something like "Expert: a,b,c Proficient d,e,f"

The template strategies will always be weaker than listing the best and most relevant skills to the specific internship you're applying for. Or at least have different templates (maybe one for AI/machine learning related jobs, a different template for pure SWE, etc.)

(replace job with internship)

[true harness]

hmmmmm. i see. i should create different latex build targets, or something. or a macro to reorder some fields 🤔. and do the same for the job application question

[mortal wedge]

For the really important internships/jobs people want, I really cannot understate the value of tailoring to the posting/listing. I had a very high rate of getting at least a phone screen or getting it evaluated by the hiring manager.

[buoyant seal]

I would say: List everything requested in job requirements for such position in general and everything that makes sense from the point of your professional specialization.

So.. if u a backend developer, mention everything backend related + stuff like Git or theoretical knowledge, or even frontend related. But don't mention Word and Excel xD

[flat magnet]

🥲

[summer roost]

What level of experience do you have? How old are you? What level of education do you have?

[dark moon]

THIS

[flat magnet]

I have just the little basic from watching YouTube video and I’ve reached the list and dictionaries part of py

I’m still undergraduate

[vapid jay]

What’s the best text editor for low end pcs

[summer roost]

undergraduate? What major?

[flat magnet]

CS just finished foundation

[summer roost]

so you're in your freshman year of uni in a CS program?

[delicate bane]

it is more common than you would think....

[flat magnet]

Yeah sir

[summer roost]

https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/ is probably the most succinct introduction you can get to a huge chunk of Python. But honestly, just be sure to focus on your classes.

[flat magnet]

Ty sir

[mortal wedge]

Do CS classes tend to give you leeway to select your programming language?

Most of mine we were forced to use one language, although I did take an algo/ds class that let us use whatever we want. (I chose C++ for some reason I still cannot fathom)

[true harness]

some do. obviously specific programming language classes want you to use that lang, but past that, not really. actually, some courses on low level computing want you to use C (though maybe that counts as a specific language class lol)

[summer roost]

many of the ones I took gave me a choice between 2 or 3 languages. I took a few where they accepted C++ or Java, for instance.

[mortal wedge]

Gotcha. So it would be reasonable advice to give someone in classes who wanted to get better at Python to select Python when given the choice between multiple langs for a class

[summer roost]

seems reasonable, yeah.

[peak halo]

At my university, there was never a choice. Most courses used Java, and a few used C. The programming languages course involved four different ones. And then the data science ones were python.

So, I guess it depends

[mortal wedge]

Huh, interesting. I guess the idea is to make someone proficient in many languages. Thanks for the insight Ms. Spears. Hope you come out with a new album soon!

[peak halo]

It's more that they treated Java as the default assumption, but used languages that were related to the subject matter of the course where there was one. And then the programming languages course was about understanding how languages work, so each assignment was in a different one.

For the Java courses where the solution was non trivial, I wrote the solution in python and then did a line by line translation. Even if it resulted in not idiomatic code.

[delicate bane]

i remember one class where the prof asked us if possible, he would like it if our projects could be done in matlab

and i was like yeah no. i remember instantly raising my hand and asking/telling him that our group project was going to be in python. what a great start to the semester

also idk if anyone has come across this but like

there are people that take PTO just to hide away from meetings and get work done...which i dont know how i feel about. like one of the tech leadership peeps said that.

like for me, if i take PTO, i would want to at least get out of town but thats me lol.

for example, im off tomorrow on PTO

[summer roost]

they're taking paid time off to do work? For the company? Yeah, that's terrible for them, and not great for the company, honestly.

[delicate bane]

yeah thats what i thought. glad my intuition wasnt wrong in this case.

[smoky quest]

it's completely toxic and will only hide problems rather than addressing them

[delicate bane]

def not good work-life balance

[summer roost]

yeah. It's obvious that that's terrible for the employee. It's also bad for the company, though, in the long run. It'll set unreasonable expectations, cause stress, lead to burnout, and increase attrition.

[smoky quest]

and the manager doesn't even know about it, which means they don't even get a chance to address it

[little shale]

This is the only thing I'm afraid of 🗿

[smoky quest]

nothing to be afraid of. It opens up the doors to so many cool things

[spark cobalt]

Self learn route should still learn math anyways. All the magic has some sort of math backing it up.

Really exciting stuff

[smoky quest]

I still remember a math class where the teacher was explaining Fourier Transform. I had my mind blown and I was thinking "wait, that sounds so cool! It feels like we could apply that to compress pictures/images. I wonder if that would work" and then 30s later for the teacher to say "And it's even used for image compression like in jpeg"

Science works

[lyric hamlet]

@smoky quest really

[smoky quest]

I never lie

[lyric hamlet]

@smoky quest if u don't mind can I ask u something

What is parser in python ??

[smoky quest]

lmao

While I appreciate the intent, this has nothing to do with this channel. Please see #❓｜how-to-get-help

[lyric hamlet]

Ok

@smoky quest but tell me like Fourier series which math concept is used in python for development

[smoky quest]

Python is a tool. Not an end in itself. So your question is like "Where are the math when using a screwdriver?". The thing is the math is in the domain in which it's applied

[lyric hamlet]

Just like Fourier series is used in image comphension

[smoky quest]

exactly

[lyric hamlet]

Actually I am new to this field tahts why I am little bit confused that's why I ask u

[smoky quest]

yeah no problem! There is no stupid question

[lyric hamlet]

@smoky quest only ask about career

[smoky quest]

in this channel

[lyric hamlet]

Ok

I am from india and u??how many languages u learned already

[smoky quest]

I am in the USA, and haven't learned a new language in a while, although it's on my todo list

[lyric hamlet]

@smoky quest only know python

What is the payscale of python developer in usa??

[smoky quest]

100k$/year to infinity

[lyric hamlet]

Ohh great can I work in usa ??

I want remote job from india

[smoky quest]

You have my authorization.

That said, your pay is based on your location, not the company HQ's location

[lyric hamlet]

@smoky quest ohh ok

[kind bolt]

Why does game development have to take so long

I come up with great stuff, but it takes time to y'know implement it all

[night copper]

I want to learn python anyone can help me?, you can dm me.

[latent wing]

realtable

[river tundra]

Hi everybody

I'm trying to enter the freelancing market. But I'm having a lot of trouble in the past year getting my first jobs.

I'm mid-level/senior in python-programming and senior in data engineer/GCP. Despite having quite a lot opportunities for standard job position, in the freelancing platforms I've been applying I'm getting a very low rate of success in getting opportunities

Does anybody here would have some tips or experience to share and help me with that?

Thanks in advance

[gilded valley]

What do you mean by mid/senior level? You have professional experience?

[river tundra]

I am transitioning from mid-level to senior in python

I have about seven years experience with software development, data consulting and data engineer @gilded valley

[near ocean]

Why are you going into freelance?

[river tundra]

I want to work less and more flexible -- I don't need to have a full week work to get financially stable -- And I would like to stay more time with my daughter @near ocean

[white relic]

this description confuses me.
There's no such thing as a senior level freelancer

[river tundra]

I'm have senior skills in data engineer. And mid-level skills in python programming -- that's it

[white relic]

in my part of the world at least, "senior" is a part of a title that doesn't often have much to do with skill level

like, if you're a Senior X, that probably means you know about X and lead a team of people who do X, or you've been with the same company for long enough to become a "senior" but not necessarily purely on the strength of your knowledge of X

where I'm going with this is, if you're advertising yourself as a "senior level data engineer" that could be part of the problem

because that doesn't really mean anything in a freelancing context

[river tundra]

is just a grading system to differentiate newcomers and people with experience

Inside pretty much any company, the more you do, learn, and gather experience, more senior you are.
It's pretty standard in any jop position in IT market

It's like "expert" or "specialist"

[near ocean]

Freelancing is hard and i wouldnt personally recommend it to anyone
You'd have to basically grind out the early days to build a portfolio and previous customers before it starts getting easier

[long vortex]

Hii

Help me guys!
I have completed and practiced python for beginners from youtube from freecodecamp.org! Then I wanna jump to python automation tutorial.is it the right thing to do?? Or I should next learn python for intermediate course??

[near ocean]

Thats not career related, you can ask in #python-discussion

[white relic]

I know what the word means, I'm saying it's not the correct word to advertise your skill level.
Seniority is about your role in a company, which is part of what you leave behind to do contract work

[river tundra]

not sure if I agree with you, but I will search for the other terms

despite that, any advice on getting the first jobs?

[white relic]

Not everyone will agree with me, but many people will, quite possibly including people you want to hire you

[white relic]

Where in the world are you looking?

[river tundra]

I'm in Brazil, but I can job anywhere else in wolrd

possibly I will rellocate to france next year

[vapid jay]

prolly the usual: freelancer.com, indeed, local business connections

[night copper]

Can anyone teach me python pls dm me

[dawn mason]

Hello 🙂 I have been programming for years in Delphi, now i realized that this language is really dying even tho it's stil sold and have developpers, but there are no longer any jobs available, not even for legacy projects.. so thinking if Python is a good choise? what would the best way to get more into this be when you allready have the" programmer in you", I understood that GUI is not really a good thing with Python ?

[hushed bramble]

no I am doing undergrad in Computer Science, and no I haven't done any internships, couldn't find any. I'm open to internships too but they don't seem to be that big of a thing in the UK

[buoyant seal]

GUI is not really good thing with Python indeed. Tell me what u wish to develop / for which operational system, and we could tell a helpful list what language we can choose for this?

[dawn mason]

perhaps some server backend service could be interresting

[buoyant seal]

U a in luck then. I am backend developer 🙂

[dawn mason]

only python stuff i have been doing are some raspberry pi, controllong entrance door, probably very bad optimized code and mocking stuff together until something worked out 😄
but its a few years ago since i last touched python

[buoyant seal]

Anyway, i would recommend at the moment choosing for Backend development between
Python and Java.
Java is a very safe language in the terms of... making bad actions as a developer. Rich in ecosystem. Really good choice for backend development at the moment
Python is rich in ecosystem and amount of developers too, its difference that it provides more rapid iterations in architecture and development

Some people would name also Javascript/Typescript for its popularity. Should be good choice if you are full stack dev, but i am honestly prejudiced against using Jabbascript anywhere except frontend development xD

[dawn mason]

i do thinking about C# for frontend

[buoyant seal]

not really possible.

[buoyant seal]

for frontend web development only javascript provides... rich ecosystem and modern stuff to do it in a nice way at this moment
All other languages are a at best providing templating HTML stuff, which is minimal and not enough for serious work. Sufficient for small work though.
Grows in popularity web assembly that allows with other languages to do frontend too, but it is not any mature enough

[buoyant seal]

+Using C# is especially bad, because u are locking yourself into M$ proprietary ecosystem, which is too tied to windows. Really bad decision for web development.
They made movements to try going open source and linux, but it is still immature and nowhere good enough.

[dawn mason]

i think dot.net now is available for other platforms now

[karmic hearth]

Hello, I just joined the server and I'm really glad I found your message right here. I've been using Python for quite a few time but never in backend development. I've just finished an internship using Spring boot and it made me think that I might have been more efficient if I had the opportunity to use a Python framework instead of Java.

[buoyant seal]

immature / lack of ecosystem

[buoyant seal]

it would be safer to choose young languages like Rust for this then

they are already better in every regard of this and having more ecosystem

[buoyant seal]

Whatever u say, sugarcube. Both options are valid.

[near ocean]

Depending on your local market C# might be a good choice
You should research what companies near you use if your goal is to maximise your chances professionally
for example, in London, C#/.net would be an excellent choice

[dawn mason]

yes, I can often see jobs requires C# and or .NET

[near ocean]

You could also do some frontend work with Blazor but i doubt theres any work with it, people opt for JS frameworks nowadays

[dawn mason]

i'll take a look at that as well

[raw ravine]

Or could use tkinter

Anyone here got hired on a discord community before?

[true harness]

no one is using tkinter for frontend. also, discord isn't really the place for getting hired

[near ocean]

tkinter isnt a web thing and you shouldnt trust job ads on discord

[gritty wren]

Hi everyone, I wanted to ask if there is a way to get a hands on experience in python projects while also getting paid (at least a minimum wage). Maybe a website that offers programming services for a job to get done for people who doesn't know anything in the programming area, so that new programmers could get a hands on experience while also getting paid for each customers problem to be solved. or something else in that area.

[raw ravine]

Why not?

[raw ravine]

Have you had a bad experience on discord?

[near ocean]

I havent had any experience getting a job from discord because that sounds very irresponsible and reckless

And i dont need to get burned to see fire is hot

[raw ravine]

Hmmm, how is it different than getting a job on LinkedIn if you use both platforms for networking?

[near ocean]

Its much easier to verify someone's identity on linkedin/indeed because the platforms themselves do work to ensure that

[raw ravine]

That makes sense :D. So is identity verification the biggest thing - like if you could verify someones identity would that make a difference?

[near ocean]

Its a big reason, but also why would you go looking for jobs in platforms whose purpose isnt primarily finding work?
Would you look for jobs on twitter/reddit/fb? (and why)

[raw ravine]

Yeah I think it makes sense to look for jobs on twitter and reddit for sure. You are able to create networks and communities in all these platforms. Why not leverage them to land jobs as a freelancer

[near ocean]

I dont want to be a freelancer tho and i dont think it should be anyone's aspiration starting out as a dev

[raw ravine]

Oh haha I wasn't referring to you I was just trying to pick people's minds 😄

[near ocean]

Sure but im just the average guy and as such i imagine most people would prefer a full time job over the struggles of freelance as an entry/junior/mid level dev

[raw ravine]

Sure, I also wasn't asking for any specific level of job

[spark cobalt]

Perhaps internships but they're super competitive given the current economic status we have with many companies giving low return offers and many companies freezing/rescinding internships.

If you're looking to sustain a living, something I was super close to doing (but ended up finding a dev job) was to work in restaurants post 5 PM, then pre 5 PM I would focus on applying to jobs, expanding my network, coding, etc.

[near ocean]

Those levels are much less likely to have an established portfolio and/or connections to previous clients
Freelancing is hard if youre just starting out

[lunar patrol]

aah my code is having a fit

[gritty wren]

I see, thanks for the advice.

[spark cobalt]

You should focus on establishing your worth by focusing on experience first. What you can do is also try to program for non profit organizations to kinda get that experience to leverage for an actual full time job

They won't pay that much or not at all, but would be a pretty good niche to apply to as very few college grads would be willing to go into a market of such low pay.

Really low competition I suspect.

[gritty wren]

True, this is what I am looking for (working for free is not a problem), the problem is how do i find it in the intranet? and not in my country...

If it is even an option...

[spark cobalt]

There's a lot of other services that are completely ran by individuals just trying to do good. For example, the pronouns page.

Super hard for pages like those to sustain employees and costs that you'd be a pretty nice candidate if you're willing to work for free.

And I'm sure some of these pages are willing to spend the time to train you. They have the time just not the money.

And specifically for that pronoun card page, they've been pretty open about their financial issues. Maybe a good place to start dunno.

[gritty wren]

Ohhh. that is very interesting Sir.
Is that like a place I could join right now?

[spark cobalt]

You're gonna have to be a bit creative if you wanna take advantage of this recession and get experience

[spark cobalt]

No. Places like these typically don't advertise that they're hiring. You just have to email them and see if they're willing to bring you up and you work for them for free

[gritty wren]

Got it.

[spark cobalt]

It's a lot of overhead work, definitely. But it's such an untouched area cuz well generally people need to be paid (rent, etc.) And you don't I assume.

Just be honest with your current skills, and just be straight with them on this idea.

[arctic galleon]

imagine being ableto work

nah im jk but it would be cool to have the privllege to work at bestbuy or something.

[spark cobalt]

A lot of best buys are hiring.

[arctic galleon]

im 14 tho

[spark cobalt]

Why are you 14 🤨

[arctic galleon]

becaiuse um idk

but i'm not old enough to work so yk

[near ocean]

working isnt a privilege lol, i wish i could live life without having to work

[true harness]

it doesn't run in the browser and it looks bad for desktop apps

[arctic galleon]

what would u do with a life without work?

[near ocean]

i would do other things i enjoy but thats outside the scope of this channel

[arctic galleon]

like pet a duck?

[loud hamlet]

I'm 19 and have an interview at a Big Tech company. They asked for a presentation, one of the questions is 'a time that I've used creativity/originality to do something differently.

anyone have any ideas or made up scenarios i can say? this is my first job and i aint no Bill Gates so im kinda out of ideas

[true harness]

you have no examples of when you used creativity? my opinion is that you shouldn't lie

[loud hamlet]

nothing comes to mind. I don't mind telling a little white lie. I NEED this job so its all means necessary. Do you have any ideas i could say?

[livid nebula]

at night when all the darkness hate angry become calm to think and use my craetivity to avenge to those who make me like this

yo how to make quick money

[loud hamlet]

yeahh i guess haahaha.

[loud hamlet]

stand outside of popular nightclub spots and sell like glowsticks for outrageous prices.

[livid nebula]

wait that a great idea

[loud hamlet]

ayyy i could say that. i use to do that when i was 16. that shows creativity and ingenuity, and hustle

Bro you think i could say that for my story that shows creativity?

[livid nebula]

YEAH i agree bcz the word of "thats a great idea " came from a good creativitity like this great idea that need a good creativtity

[loud hamlet]

yeah you just helped me come up with my answer and i just gave you a side hustle. This is great

[livid nebula]

HAHAHAHA

damn bro this is the greatest bisniss thing i ever experience totally become core memory

[loud hamlet]

But real talk that idea does work especially if you live in a Big city like London. We was 16 making £100 in a couple of hours.

[livid nebula]

goddamn

[livid nebula]

this is literally my teacher salary/ month

[loud hamlet]

hahahaah. are you an English teacher

[cosmic jacinth]

"coming up with answers to this interview"

[livid nebula]

nope im just 17yo love to thingking kid

[loud hamlet]

yessirr i found my answer and its not a lie which is great

[livid nebula]

i literally cant sleep cuz my mind thinking stupid thing but actually fun and sometime great idea

[loud hamlet]

what idea?

[delicate bane]

apparently word on the street is the next big company to do layoffs soon is salesforce

[cosmic jacinth]

ngl this makes going back to school/uni for 7 years sound more and more like a really appealing idea

[livid nebula]

a drink that if u drink 1 gulp the taste of the spicy in ur mouth is gone in a blink

[analog sun]

This seems to be getting off topic for this channel

[livid nebula]

mb sorry

[near ocean]

@loud hamlet are you a student? Or do you have previous experience?

[loud hamlet]

im an IT student. i have worked on multiple projects but they were mainly tutorial based (defeats creativity). The only job experience i have is in Retail. The only reason i've made it this far in the application is because i was student of the year in IT and got good grades

[livid nebula]

DAYUM SIUUUUUUUUU

[near ocean]

fyi this answer doesnt need to be technical, have you never had a tough situation or a problem you had to think for a bit to solve?

[livid nebula]

whats ur motivation on learning that make u get good grades and student of the year in TI ??

damn if u become a boss like elon musk u will really have a great story to inspire ppl and aamiin 😄

[loud hamlet]

hopefully bro. but i dont need to be no Elon, as long as im making a solid 6 figures a year ill be happy.

[cosmic jacinth]

you could also pull the smartass card and say that a problem where you used creativity was coming up with answers to a job interview :^)

[loud hamlet]

hahaha hit em with the uno reverse card

[mortal wedge]

I'm not sure in your specific case, but making a game is a significant endeavor. There are some competitions though (pyweek comes to mind) where people code full games in a week. Maybe you could draw some advice/insight from their approach?

As an aside, not sure I recommend Python for game development. It can definitely be done, but you may run into memory/performance issues.

[cosmic jacinth]

EVE Online: hello there

[livid nebula]

eve online use python ??

[cosmic jacinth]

the low level parts use C++ iirc, but a lot of the codebase is in fact in (stackless) python

[mortal wedge]

So, freelancing. A lot of your time/effort is going to be in growing your business/client base. For some people it comes more naturally, for others not so much. But you should network, maybe get a site, get client testimonials, etc.

[mortal wedge]

!resources This isn't the channel for that question and you're unlikely to get people who will dm you to teach you as it's a significant commitment. But I recommend checking out some of these resources and asking on the server if you have any questions.

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[mortal wedge]

Python has a lot of staying power as a language, due to it being open source and having a vast ecosystem. It also has a great guiding philosophy, while it may not be the most time/memory performant language it cuts down on what is typically the bottleneck for companies, development time. I would recommend it as it's likely to be alive for a long time.

[mortal wedge]

Maybe someone will chime in as I think this is a great idea, but I've never seen it. Typically for freelance positions they want some degree of skill, but maybe if your rate is way lower than everyone else you will still get jobs. The only time where skill/experience isn't a big deal when hiring is internships. But I don't know your life situation if that's applicable.

[mortal wedge]

You can definitely leverage networking/communities for recommendations/introductions, etc. But even on job platforms there are some scammy jobs. I would be especially worried about scammy jobs on non-job boards/social media.

[mortal wedge]

The big problem here is that freelance, even if you can manage it, ebbs and flows. Whereas a full time job is a steady income, without constant negotiation that freelance brings.

[mortal wedge]

I don't mind it, there are parts of my job that I would do for free. (While other parts I'm only doing because I'm paid)

[mortal wedge]

The problem with made up scenarios is that most people break down or come across is insincere when pressed on them or asked to elaborate. If anything, I would try to embellish and paint in the best possible light a situation that you did experience. Maybe instead of looking it as "What's your million dollar idea?" Look at it as "When did you solve a problem outside of the normal way or when did you combine your knowledge with existing knowledge to do something new?" Maybe a time you looked up something on stack overflow that wasn't quite what you needed and you built off of it to get what you needed.

[mortal wedge]

Become a stripper?

[mortal wedge]

A lot of big tech companies are cutting back, not sure why. But not a fan of salesforce so this is happy news

[cosmic jacinth]

you're saying not blindly copying off stackoverflow is not the standard?

[mortal wedge]

When you start doing niche things stack overflow becomes less and less helpful 😦

[cosmic jacinth]

oh so like coding a python extension that interfaces with a C library to encode audio as 1-bit but ludicrously high sample rate via noise shaping?

[delicate bane]

the pragmatic engineer has some pretty good content on the macroeconomics of it all + big tech. i highly recommend.

[mortal wedge]

I'll check it out. Just glad I'm not feeling the effects. Also it is HILARIOUS that Twitter is desperately trying to rehire the people it laid off

[delicate bane]

ah yeah i posted something about it yesterday and thats when @spark cobalt found out we see the same posts

[mortal wedge]

I think I saw that. Advice on how the ex employees should leverage their return offers

[delicate bane]

yeah im pretty sure my industry should also be good

[loud hamlet]

Great advice mate. Thank you a lot. I actually had a similar situation when I was working on a project., I could use that.

[mortal wedge]

I have no bloody idea about mine. How interested are people in Neuroscience? Will they continue to be interested in Neuroscience? ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[delicate bane]

but i probably shouldnt say stuff like that bc you never know

[mortal wedge]

I do know that other countries are more interested in developing Neuroscience than mine. The US's big push to develop neuroscience was like 60 years ago or something

[delicate bane]

oh really? what countries?

[mortal wedge]

I don't have data backing this, just from people I've talked to at conferences and such, but it seems like most of the novel research is coming out of Germany

Hmm. With the caveat that quantity does not equal quality...

[delicate bane]

yes but the percentage per population should be greater

[mortal wedge]

Ahh, good point!

[cosmic jacinth]

normalised to the USA's population germany would have 18620 - or about the same

the UK would have the most out of all on that list by that metric

[mortal wedge]

Without saying too much about the quality of each category, I will say that these being the top four does jive with my experience. And to bring this full circle and keep it relevant, Python has some impressive Neuroscience related libraries, showing that the Python ecosystem is, to use proper professional lingo, awesome.

[delicate bane]

update with twitter. from pragmatic:

[mortal wedge]

Wow, that's absurd and ridiculous. Elon apparently has no idea how to run a software focused company

[delicate bane]

i cant even fathom 20+ direct reports. isnt your week all meetings? how can you find time to code?

[mortal wedge]

Sounds like they're just trying to make that company a shit place to work, tbh

[buoyant seal]

May be joke that his real goal is to destroy Twitter, is not really a joke xD Each day more evidence to this plate.

[mortal wedge]

Joke, incompetence, malice... who knows. But what an expensive exercise and waste of money this all was.

[near ocean]

All I know is it'll soon be time to buy twitter stock

[spark cobalt]

Deleting Twitter > Ending World Hunger

[tall isle]

hey guys so I was adding skills to my resume

and i noticed that my tools side was filled and i wanted to split it to Programming Languages | Frameworks| , then add another category for Cloud/Database, what should that section be ? its part of my technical skills

[true harness]

I call it "tools" on mine

[tall isle]

i did that but my tools is filled with other things like react/node/kubernetes/docker/etc

i am thinking about making a separate category that includes like cloud/db

[true harness]

what's the difference between cloud and db stuff vs docker and k8s.

also wouldn't SQL go in your cloud tools and db stuff

also, is JSON really worth mentioning?

also, i would add emphasis to the headers, the italics are a bit hard to pick out. try bold maybe?

also, idk if the OS part is necessary

[delicate bane]

if i see google cloud and aws broadly like that, its kinda meaningless to me. i would want to know which specific cloud services you have experience with

[true harness]

was that just not a png

[tall isle]

idk wth why is it like that

[tall isle]

oh like Cloud Armor Updater/ ACM/ Google Cloud Functions?

[delicate bane]

exactly

[tall isle]

i just felt like they're too wordy

[delicate bane]

pick the services you are strongest in

dont put all of them

[tall isle]

ok ill change SQL and move it to 'Tools'

[tall isle]

this was the png that didn't render, but i had my skills laid out like this

[delicate bane]

thats better. i would maybe rewrite "cloud tools" to just "cloud".

[true harness]

there's so much wasted space on the left there 😢

[tall isle]

what do you mean?

the way its formatted ive been told by recruiters its clean

i just needed advice on wording

thank you🤝

[true harness]

sure, maybe it's clean, but it has a lot of empty space there. you might be able to fit more things

[tall isle]

not the way that its formatted, i used latex to make it and everything is so precisely done its fine

[true harness]

is the "proficient in" supposed to be programming languages only?

[tall isle]

yeah

[true harness]

why not put SQL and HTML/CSS there then

[tall isle]

i guess i could put html/css, but i haven't had much professional experience w html/css and sql, only academic and personal.

[delicate bane]

i would even go so far as putting node.js and react.js up there too. but thats me. im not a frontend dev so i wouldnt actually know what is common practice

[true harness]

idk how i feel about "REST APIs" as a tool

[buoyant seal]

I could name all technologies and programming languages as a tool xD

[spark cobalt]

Just gave me the idea to put Google and SO on my resume

• Professionally utilized the Google Search Engine and Stack Overflow to solve problems efficiently rather than attempting to reinvent the wheel.

[livid nebula]

i have pc what can i do for make money

sell ??

[spark cobalt]

Yes

[livid nebula]

i got college degree what can i do to make money???
sell the degree
copy that

[peak halo]

Are you being serious?

[dreamy shadow]

I have to say, the interview I went through today gotta be one of the worst ones yet.
Literally started by having two interviewers on the same laptop with cameras off, but requiring me to have my camera on.

[serene kindle]

Hahaha

[summer roost]

Needless to say, don't accept that job 🙂

[serene kindle]

Damn

[dreamy shadow]

And then the hiring manager kept asking the equivalent question of "How good is your python skills?" and actually asked me to rate my skills on a scale of 1-10....

10 as in what? Full fledged developer? I felt like they didn't even know what they were looking for.

[summer roost]

That's a weird question just because people are wrong about where the ceiling is. Pretty much everyone will always just say 7-ish

[serene kindle]

How else would they ask it

[dreamy shadow]

Lmao, I said 9. Ops

[serene kindle]

How many metric ounces of python skill do you have?

[dreamy shadow]

By asking specific questions would be a better way imo.

[summer roost]

Like, juniors underestimate how much they don't know, seniors have a more accurate assessment, very few people are actually "experts"

[serene kindle]

That's the use of language, as an entryway to conversation

[summer roost]

The only thing that question is good for is knowing that someone who says they're a 10 out of 10 is almost certainly wildly incorrect about their skill level

[white relic]

The dev who actually knows Python well enough to evaluate your skill through questions was probably too busy putting out fires to interview you

[serene kindle]

Its just English language skills

[dreamy shadow]

lmao, this is probably true

Given that this position was a backfill. I did as what they would consider to be a 10 and got some wishy washy answer back.

Good practice either way, I definitely was rusty on some of the questions.

[summer roost]

Unless you're desperate, it's unwise to take a job where the interviewers seemed rude or incompetent. It doesn't bode well for the work environment

[dreamy shadow]

That's why I'm interviewing while employed.

The requirements on the job description itself is more geared towards Data engineering. They should have just looked for a data engineer and not data scientist.

[dense bone]

alright so I wanna become a robotic engineer and ik for that u would machine learning BUT-
what programming language is good for machine learning that is used mostly by robotic engineer??

[summer roost]

I wanna become a robotic engineer and ik for that u would machine learning
Would you? I would have thought computer engineering, electrical engineering, or mechanical engineering would all be significantly more relevant

it's not my field, but my impression is that there's much more to the hardware and firmware in robotics than there is to the software.

[peak halo]

I might be able to check tomorrow what sorts of credentials the autonomy engineers in my department have, but I imagine that the machine learning part requires some domain knowledge in mechE and physics

[peak halo]

I believe the models are trained in python but then deployed on the autonomous devices as C++

Generally speaking. That's what the self driving car people at pycon said.

[woeful spruce]

There are companies using python to develop code, models, and data for 'self-driving' cars

[dense bone]

aight 💀thanks

[summer roost]

is it robotics engineers writing that code?

genuine question. I know that there's ML involved in self-driving, of course - but I wouldn't expect that the people who call themselves "robotics engineers" are the ones doing the ML part of it.

if they are, my understanding is clearly off 🙂

[long vortex]

Hii everyone

[livid nebula]

waddap cuh

i got pc and i can be someone butler

dm me 😄

[static saffron]

I have my first interview in 3 days, it also includes a custom language test [where they present a made-up language and I need to program using it] can anyone give me some tips and explain a few things?

[vapid jay]

Imagine me, I joined a CS program and we have welding and smelting in the first semester

Also carpentry, mixing concrete and surveying

[dense mesa]

Machine learning isn't needed for robotics 😅

[dense mesa]

I personally haven't heard of anyone doing self-driving call themselves robotics engineers through an engineering degree

[dense bone]

It do but few I just knew
Well thanks anyway for responding

[dense mesa]

Some of the people in this channel have spent years studying the things they talk about 🙂

[empty delta]

Let me present to you the most useless script I have ever wrote, a python program with 85,979,881 lines of print('hi) code

[marble sierra]

Gj

[hidden bloom]

landing ur first role as a junior swe is hard right? as the field is very saturated with junior devs? if im to come out with a comp sci degree should i look for a different role than swe in order to avoid that? or is swe still the most lucrative? besides really hard things like quant?

[near ocean]

What are you thinking of looking at? I think SWE is incredibly generic already, kind of hard to find something related to it but not it

[hidden bloom]

hm originally something in cybersec but idt its that lucrative

so i should try to specialize instead of just looking for SWE role?

[balmy mural]

It'll also depend on where you live. Everyone I studied with had no problems landing jobs for next year

Majority of them in some field of SWE

[hidden bloom]

well ya the issue is what is the most rewarding in terms of money and the best place to start out do you think or the specific role doesn't matter that much, i don't want to just be an average dev working on crud

[white relic]

what kind of non-average dev job are you qualified for with a cs degree and no experience? 🤔

[hidden bloom]

none yet

[white relic]

well "average dev" is generally where you'll be starting

[hidden bloom]

thats what im saying is there a specific pathway to follow or no, like should i look for a specific type of first job or no any general swe role is fine

[white relic]

You should look at the job market and see what entry-level roles companies are hiring for in your region

[near ocean]

I dont think the average dev works on crud
crud apps are very simple, theyre even recommended to beginner webdevs as starting projects

[white relic]

oh smh I forgot crud was an acronym

[hidden bloom]

fair enough

[hidden bloom]

u mean the amount of money they're giving

[white relic]

not specifically, but that would be one factor to consider

salary varies a lot by location and also some by industry

[graceful mason]

outside of academia it's probably going to be done by 2 separate teams

[turbid karma]

Hi! I’m looking to get into contract work focusing on helping local small businesses, organizations, and municipalities increase productivity by automating repetitive tasks, mostly with Python. I was wondering if anyone could suggest some libraries that are focused on that kind of work? (Automating e-mails, creating spreadsheets, etc.)

P.S. I have experience with Pandas and Seaborn

[peak halo]

pandas is mostly about the actual data transformations, so you might want to learn openpyxl if you want to write the dataframes back to excel in a way that non-technical people like (colors, idk).

[lime bay]

How long would you wait if a company says they would contact you soon?

[gilded valley]

OpenPyXL and the Microsoft graph API are pretty much what you need

[white relic]

don't wait for anything

if you are job hunting, keep applying and interviewing for other jobs

[gilded valley]

Possibly something like Sendgrid or an it dept managed SMTP server f you need to interact outside of your org

[lime bay]

I don't want to contact the company too soon. I've waited for a week.
And yea I'm still applying. Just really interested in this company

[white relic]

it really depends on the company. You could make a guess from how big it is and what kind of industry maybe but could be anywhere from a week to months

two weeks is probably a good time to send a follow up in case something has stalled

I know someone who interviewed at a company in November, and then the HR person working his case quit over the holidays and it was like April before his successor came across my friend's resume and realized they never sent him an offer

bit of an extreme case, that, but it happens

[lime bay]

Wow haha. Guess I need patience then. The company is a start up but so far the process has been really slow.

[white relic]

small companies can be faster because they have less bureaucracy to go through, but they can also be slower because they have fewer people doing more things

[brave matrix]

does it ever happen that a recruiter will send an offer to multiple candidates with the intention of hiring just one?

Like the candidate accepts the offer and then the recruiter will say that they already hired someone

[white relic]

I've heard of that kind of thing happening (not to anyone I know or companies I have worked at), but it would be extremely bad form, if not actually illegal

[brave matrix]

Ok just trying to understand my position, I just got an offer but the salary is lower than what I wanted so idk

[white relic]

you can always counteroffer

[brave matrix]

Hey guys I got an offer which was 20% less than what I told them I expect/want, they said that its the same salary they pay all the entry level students that just finished uni (I'm self-taught but have hands down experience and I've been freelancing for the past 6 months), the guy (team manager) was saying that the salary isnt negotiable since its entry level, but after my first year I could expect 15 - 20% raise and so on each year.

Now it seems like there isnt much I can negotiate, maybe I could ask to include a public transporation subscription (but its only like 300 euro a year), and perhaps negotiate a good healthcare package so I dont pay much whenever I visit the doctor.

Any advice on what I can do ?
If they sent me an offer it means I'm probably the best candidate,
so they must be willing to negotiate, right?

[white relic]

15-20% annual raise??
that seems wrong

maybe that was meant to be a bonus?
some companies give yearly bonuses of that scale

which, if they follow through, would put the compensation level pretty close to what you want

[buoyant seal]

15-20%, sounds correct to me as annual raise, if developer increases his skills correctly during that time frame

[outer vault]

nobody see the help channal?

[dire junco]

Hey im a python dev and im bored can someon include me in a project (working for free)

[white relic]

I mean I know EU inflation is worse than US but still

[brave matrix]

For entry level it makes sense

And he put a time bomb until Monday...

[buoyant seal]

i increased my salary 5 times from its starting one during first year of my career.
and 50% during second year
in third year probably it will be more moderate 20% increase or something like that

i got it obviously through getting better rank for my job role

[true harness]

50% is a huge increase lol, unless you started way below the average pay

[buoyant seal]

yeah. that's why. I expect next years to increase way less. I still see a room for 100% increase during nearby years and then it will stop having such dractic increases
I started working in a third world country, where starting pay is very low xD So dractic increases appear from my salary catching up with world market standards

[delicate bane]

yeah that makes sense imo

3rd world countries are a whole different ball game.

[white relic]

To be clear, to get 15-20% raise in a year is not unheard of if you do a good job. But it's higher than inflation, which means unless the company is making absolute bank, they can't be giving everybody that kind of increase

[buoyant seal]

Well, if i would reach ever US market payment level + learning all the necessary stuff i need for senior ranked job roles i wish to gain / getting relevant job experience, i think my salary get easily increased 4 times from current one xD kind makes questioned how low was the starting salary so it could be increased so many times.

[turbid karma]

Thanks, Brit! Although I'm pretty sure programmers like colors too, vis-à-vis syntactical highlighting 😛

[brave matrix]

Its not only inflation, its mainly because you aquire more knowledge and are worth more

[near ocean]

50% for a raise in the same job is impossible lol unless you used another offer to negotiate, what was your starting salary if you got 50% more in the second year

[buoyant seal]

i received 400% increase within same first job
after i got hired to second job, 50% increase i got in second job without using offers to negotiate, i got it afrer finishing first 3 months/trial period. I negotiated that my salary is way below market

[near ocean]

That seems unbelievable, what salary did you start your first job with

[buoyant seal]

xD i guess it is okay to say. My first salary in third world country as a junior, was 375$ per month.

[near ocean]

Full time?

[buoyant seal]

so... 400% increase made it 2000$ per month

[gilded valley]

I don't understand why people are so coy about salaries

[buoyant seal]

yeah

[ivory sluice]

yeah speaking of your raises in percentages without context of absolute numbers isn't super useful

not when it's starting that low

[near ocean]

You were working full time (40h a week) for $375 a month?

[buoyant seal]

so in second company when i renegotiated, i increased 2000 to 3000$ eventually.

[buoyant seal]

well, third world country. 375-700$ per month is normal for starting juniors there. The most lucky ones can get at best 1200$ i think

[near ocean]

If its normal how did you negotiate 400% of it in the same job

[ivory sluice]

if the company can get away with the minimum raise to keep you as their employee, that is often the route they will take.

of course, ymmv and there are exceptions

[gilded valley]

I started on 40k, that went up to 45k after about 6 months with a bonus of 2k at the same time (GBP, not USD)

[buoyant seal]

Well... company had very horrible problems i was able to solve despite being junior. I was able quickly to prove i can take on middle developer levels tasks (while having actually senior level job duties)... in comparison to other people doing stuff there. Very minor startup which started very horribly xD

[near ocean]

I started on 25k GBP, went up to 30k in 6months and then to 45k after switching jobs
Thats also 50% increase but i had to switch jobs to do it, youre not going to get a 50% raise lol

[dire junco]

Hey guys i want to get included in someons prject in git so i can warm-up a lil (working fr free)

[brave matrix]

I never understood this, the company will pay their minimum, I might accept, I get some experience and move on to a better offer, now they need to train new candidate and waste alot of money, when they could have just offered me a better salary 🤷‍♂️

[ivory sluice]

yes that's right.

do you have working experience?

[near ocean]

I think most of my friends had massive jumps in salary by hopping jobs and not relying on promised raises

[ivory sluice]

btw you can try and use that when negotiating your raise. it's really very contextual to every individual's situation. but everyone is replaceable

just a matter of how much an employer is willing to pay in time and money.

[buoyant seal]

well, being honest, i received my first salary increased that dractically, only because of three factors

1. I helped to discover money spending going to waste for... around 5000$ per month
2. i threatened to leave around same time
3. i acquried good reputation

So... essentially i made free a lot of money, which went into my salary at least partially in the end.

[brave matrix]

not as a full-time job, but I have been freelancing for quite a while now, and im willing to bet that I can code better than most students that just finished college/uni (im 20 btw)

[brave matrix]

yep but youre paying a premium for replacing someone, and you waste more time

[ivory sluice]

imo I'd take the offer you were given if it's a decent wage for you, unless you're getting traction in other applications. I'd work hard, and be mentally prepared to jump to get the level of pay you want

tbh no one is that critical or difficult to replace in year 1

[white relic]

Maybe it's a culture thing. If it's a matter of "we're hiring you below market, but if you're still here after a year you get bumped up" that's different than "we're hiring you super cheap with the vague promise that if you do a good job you can get a big raise"

assuming your starting salary is below market rate for entry level, and you don't simply have unrealistic expectations

[near ocean]

I'd be so salty if a year in they told me i'e get a 50% raise tbh and i'd rather leave for a position starting at 50% more instead

[brave matrix]

true, Im willing to put in the work, but man, not for a shitty salary

[ivory sluice]

so it's below market rate?

[gilded valley]

My current company is a bit funky. They fairly explicitly say that your salary won't grow that much for the first 3 years of your career, at which point it will be more tightly tied to your performance

[ivory sluice]

not just below what you want?

[buoyant seal]

i am having at the moment a bit fragile beraucracy standing and money standing in general due to immigration. Not very best time to change jobs in general.

• i would prefer to be not job hopping too much. I prefer to leave company only when i see logical conclusion of some work stuff + i am sure i gained everything i can in terms of skills from current company

[brave matrix]

I might have two other offers coming in the next week, but the guy wants an answer on Monday already, which I really dont appreciate to get time bombed like that

[white relic]

When did you get the offer?

[brave matrix]

according to glassdoor, yes.

[near ocean]

Is this targeted towards juniors in the company?

[ivory sluice]

and for your location and years of experience, correct? did you check entry level?

[near ocean]

Im not staying in the same company for 3 years, wtf
They'd be lucky i stay 2 years

[ivory sluice]

bc if so that should be straightforward to make a counteroffer, and also request a few more days. if they refuse then oh well.

you drop them

[gilded valley]

yeah, it's a grad scheme and the salary raises are set in stone for the 2 years of the grad scheme and the year in which it ends - then after that, your direct manager gets control

[brave matrix]

also I know the work is gonna be tough since I will be the ONLY data engineer (will be working with the Developer team leader which is currently managing the data side (temporarily))

[brave matrix]

just today

[white relic]

that's very short turnaround

smells off to me

if they can't give you a week to think about it, I'd give some very careful consideration to what kind of a workplace that is

[brave matrix]

yep, its really a shame because it looks like a good place to work at, small team, not much beaurocracy, and alot of oppurtunity for growth, but I really dont appreciate that, and also the offer...

[delicate bane]

yeah makes sense to me.

maybe wait out the storm a bit, especially due to macroeconomic factors.

[brave matrix]

do you guys think its a good idea to message the dev-team-leader on linkedin (which I will be working with side by side, if...) and ask him what he thinks about the offer? and how much room do I have to negotiate?

he certainly was part of the decision to send me an offer, so it means he wants to work with me, but he also has good relations with the team manager (that is trying to hire me) so he probably also dosent want to "go behind hes back" and discuss the payment with me

[ivory sluice]

i dont think that would reflect well on you

[lime bay]

Don't. You don't know him or his attitude. He might even be best buds with the CEO

[ivory sluice]

if you were given an offer thru a channel you should respond and engage appropriately in that same channel and with the same person

[lime bay]

Honestly if you don't like the job don't take it

[delicate bane]

i think if i was him, i would be like "why is this guy messaging me?"

"why doesnt he just talk and negotiate directly with them?"

[brave matrix]

makes sense

hes the only guy that could give me an insight to how the company operates, since its pretty small there isnt anything online

[white relic]

You can ask for more time. They don't have to give it to you but that also tells you something about the company.

"thank you for the offer, but I need some time to think about it"

[normal nacelle]

I need 1000 answers

[peak halo]

which is the first of your 1000 questions?

[normal nacelle]

What is coding

[peak halo]

Are these going to be questions you could Google?

[normal nacelle]

I have no idea

[near ocean]

If you dont know, they probably are

[normal nacelle]

I can't type how i want cause of this slowmode

[peak halo]

"what is x" questions can be googled. if you have a question that benefits from human answering, you're welcome to ask them.

The slowmode is intentional. Be sure to say everything you want to say in one message before hitting enter.

[normal nacelle]

I always google stuff and i never get a answer, discord is where i go for my questions

[peak halo]

This is the first time I have ever heard anyone say that they can't find answers to basic questions on Google.

[brave matrix]

should I counter-offer with a non-negotiable offer? this way we get straight to the point and I uno-reverse him

[normal nacelle]

That the problem, questions are always popping up as i think more and more about it i cant just type Everything in a message i either need way too long or can't say anything

[peak halo]

This channel isn't for stream-of-thought questions, so it sounds like the slowmode is preventing you from using the channel incorrectly. That's the point.

[normal nacelle]

They aren't basic right now maybe but i always, i mean always have a question that can only be answered by real people and I'm mot talking about coding I'm talking in general

[peak halo]

"What is coding" is not a question that requires a real person to answer it.

[normal nacelle]

Can i make a thread for that?

[normal nacelle]

I'd answer that but i don't wanna type a paragraph

[peak halo]

You can open a help channel (see #❓｜how-to-get-help), but if you ask a bunch of unrelated questions, you will probably be ignored. Try asking focused questions that benefit from getting one or more answers from humans.

You don't want to type a paragraph. How effortless do you want things to be?

[normal nacelle]

Looks like i won't be able to do things how I like, and you asking how effortless I want things to be ? I want them to be very very very effortless but ik that it's not and I'm sick of typing so many paragraphs daily that if i can type at least 1 less i would be really happy i know what it's like to be answering dumb questions over and over i am the main person in a server that gets asked questions daily so i honestly get it, as you see I've written another paragraph to explain i hate them

[near ocean]

My guy this is the careers channel

[white relic]

I wouldn't recommend it. If you don't intend to accept the offer, just reject it. No point burning bridges.

[near ocean]

Can we get some cleanup please and thanks

[blazing oar]

Hi i'm new to python, is there anything that i should know about before i get started?

[peak halo]

Most recent on-topic question:

should I counter-offer with a non-negotiable offer? this way we get straight to the point and I uno-reverse him

[blazing oar]

Also should i learn python along with college and a career?

[peak halo]

Are you asking because you aim to become a professional developer? Do you know what kind of developer you want to be?

[blazing oar]

Just want to know enough, like i'm not planning on being a master just enough that it makes me look smart enough to get a job

[near ocean]

What do you have in mind? Remember youre just starting out so you dont have much leverage, you have to be very careful about it

[peak halo]

so you do want to get a programming job? again, what kind?

[blazing oar]

Don't know

[peak halo]

well, if you're a young person without professional experience, you should plan to get a CS degree. or you will have a hard time getting your foot in the door.

[blazing oar]

I'm doing applied entrepreneurship already

[peak halo]

so you're running a business? what kind? you might be able to use Python to make your workflow more efficient.

[blazing oar]

not sure how i would get a degree while balancing all the other stuff in life

[near ocean]

Whats an applied entrepreneurship? Is it part of a college course?

[brave matrix]

I guess I will just send in my offer, worst case I'll keep speaking with other recruiters and take some time to add more skills to my resume

anyways thanks alot for youre advice guys

[near ocean]

#❓｜how-to-get-help or #python-discussion for help with python

[mortal wedge]

You're allowed to reach out for a counter interview. I've done one of those before, where a candidate wanted to ask me questions to get to know the company and the offer better.

But 100% they do not want to discuss pay/offers with you.

[mortal wedge]

Everything is negotiable

[mortal wedge]

Companies are often short-sighted and only looking to the next quarterly earnings. Then something like this bites them in the butt

[dense mesa]

There's a future beyond the next quarter? /s

[peak halo]

the problem with late-stage capitalism in one sentence

[glossy glen]

Hey guys. I wanted to know what I will need to learn to get a job in cybersecurity

[near ocean]

Potentially multiple degrees

[summer roost]

If the pay they're offering is so low you cannot accept the job, then you've got nothing to lose by making a counteroffer. If that's not the case, you risk an offer that you might have accepted being rescinded.

[glossy glen]

computer-science and related fields?

[spark cobalt]

@brave matrix Iirc you had 0 YOE? Once you have like 6+ offers, just pick the best one.

I don't think it's worth, time-wise, to just keep neglecting offers till you get some optimal one that might not exist or very very very few openings exist.

Which, might take months to get honestly. And by then you could've possibly had couple of months of experience already. Dunno, I'd consider the time loss as something you should account for.

[white relic]

it's the secretary problem

if you take the first offer that comes along you don't know whether it was good or bad

[spark cobalt]

Yeah I had to neglect my first offer. Thank god I did...

[white relic]

OTOH if you wait until you have statistically significant data, you might pass up the best offer you're likely to get

[spark cobalt]

Yep.

[white relic]

but the fact they made the offer Friday with a deadline of Monday makes me think this is not the best offer out there

[spark cobalt]

Just the question becomes how much data would you need to make this assessment?

[lime bay]

How would one showcase backend work on their resume?
Like if one created a rest framework backed, do they need a front-end for it?

[spark cobalt]

Would be a plus. Considering that communicating with the frontend and ensuring the API you make fits with what the frontend needs is what you'd do realistically. But I wouldn't spend too much time on it.

Moreso just demonstrates you have experience being on the receiving end.

Not sure if it really matters for resume though. Probably person to person they might see a plus in that, and others might not care

[lime bay]

Would just putting the code on GitHub work?

Like the backend code. If one decides not to do fronted?

[spark cobalt]

From others here, doesn't seem like many people view Githubs from resume.

[delicate bane]

omg tell me about it. this actually affects roles that involve multiple-quarter projects which DS projects tend to be.

[spark cobalt]

I've applied to almost 4000 jobs and the traffic to my repositories have never passed like 3 people.

[delicate bane]

same here

[lime bay]

That's a huge bummer. That means you'll actually have to put a link out there lol

[white relic]

no, it means people don't bother looking stuff up that you put on your resume before the interview

[spark cobalt]

I demoed my projects and explained the code structure/design/whatnot for them in the actual interview. Discussing decisions I made, etc.

[lime bay]

I took my first. Lasted only 3 months cause the company was bomb and wanted a "senior" while paying junior salaries

[white relic]

I counter-offered my first offer and worked there 8 years so

[spark cobalt]

Especially with everyone getting a huge volume of candidates (at least in the US I assume), they don't have the time to code review everyone.

[delicate bane]

thats an oof. but sadly ive heard that happening quite often

[spark cobalt]

My first offer was this like 5 person engineer team where the manager was playing like psychological games the entire time with me and I was like, fuck this I cba to work in fucking North Dakota out of all places

So I declined. Now work at a place that I literally don't think I can ask for better or want for better.

[lime bay]

Ah that's good to hear. I'm just going to drop the source code then. I do know how to use the frontend but if it won't increase my chances I ain't be putting it out there.

[delicate bane]

thats great. i think more companies should approach interviews this way.

[lime bay]

Juniors really get the short end of the stick 🥲🥲

[spark cobalt]

Was a lot better for me lmao cuz I had nothing else to prove for myself

[dreamy shadow]

Had a 11:30 scheduled recruiter call, they called at 11:15ish and hit me with a list of questions.

[spark cobalt]

Oof

[delicate bane]

my internship had a round of interviews similar to this. ended up getting the internship due to my project demo

[dreamy shadow]

2 unprofessional interviews in 2 days. Nice

[spark cobalt]

Discussing projects allowed me to make interview conversational, which makes the entire interview go so smoothly for the interviewer and interviewee it's just so nice

[white relic]

yeah, if anyone raises questions about the projects you claim to have done and want to know more, they won't do it before they have had a chance to actually interview you, at which point they can ask directly

[dreamy shadow]

It looked like they did:
Some junior recruiter who passes notes to a senior recruiter before even reaching the hiring manager.

[delicate bane]

what they didnt know was that i spent the entire last night and early morning fixing the breaking changes created by the latest update in the framework i was using @spark cobalt

[spark cobalt]

[lime bay]

Yes this was what I got in my last interview. Better than the fake behaviour questions. I really loved it.

[near ocean]

I had something like this happen once
Was in a taxi moving house, recruiter called, unscheduled, starting blasting me on technical points on my thesis, hung up instantly

[delicate bane]

omg. glad i did though since that internship converted to my FT role currently

[spark cobalt]

[dreamy shadow]

Lasted like 20mins too.

Honestly, it felt like going through the drive through at a fast food place given how fast the junior(?) recruiter spoke.

[spark cobalt]

[lime bay]

You might have been their first person to ever interview ☠️☠️

[dreamy shadow]

Couldn't find them on linkedin either lmao

[lime bay]

It would be ok. Take a day to cool off and start applying again

[vapid jay]

hows going guys?

[spark cobalt]

I think one of the advantages for me was that the company did Zoom interviews by default, and I asked if I could do it in person. And honestly, explaining ideas, demoing, and everything is just so much smoother and cleaner in person, I think made a much better impact since in person you can easily control the environment of the room.

So I was able to one-up my competition by not doing the default path and requesting for in person. Which for me, I love in person stuff more than Zoom stuff so was a win-win.

Whiteboard > Some IDE shit in Zoom screenshare 🤮

[cosmic jacinth]

funnily enough there's a really similar maths problem to that that numberphile covered with toilets - assuming you have n toilets, you want the cleanest, and checking the next requires you to skip the last one and not be able to go back to it, the optimal number is n divided by e

[spark cobalt]

Yep it's the same idea

[near ocean]

I'm never writing code on any coloured board ever again

Im applying to jobs, not torture positions

[spark cobalt]

Wait like, you mean the whiteboard itself was like green or something?

[near ocean]

No lol im saying im never handwriting code again, that's criminal

[spark cobalt]

Oh for mine we just wrote half pseudo half python.

[near ocean]

Apparently my company used to do in person whiteboard interviews but switched mid pandemic

[spark cobalt]

I think one of the things that helped in my interview was the interviewer was suggesting some logic and writing his own code on the board, and I pointed out that it would violate quite a few edgecases

Team effort interviews are so cool

Props to those that make interviews actually more than just interviewer and interviewee

If only all interviews could be enjoyed in this way

[near ocean]

Mine was in a shared replit environment but i dont think the interviewer wrote any code, but we did talk quite a bit about edge cases, performance, even struggled together on some shitty CSS exercise
Was the most fun i've had in an interview

[spark cobalt]

[delicate bane]

oh shoot that was pretty clever of you. yeah it def makes for a better impression for you to go in-person since it shows you actually care

[spark cobalt]

Yep. Had a slick clean suit on too

Lot of other little tricks I played too. When I got home I stalked everyone I talked to on LinkedIn and made sure I remembered their names. Remembering people's name is huge I think, at least if people remember my name I think like damn, especially when ~~they don't remember yours back ~~

In person is literally like a battlefield you control

It's like those psychological trick YouTube videos you see but now irl

[worthy granite]

hi

[delicate bane]

this approach is interesting. thoughts?

[gritty rivet]

<@&831776746206265384>

[fringe pine]

Stay on-topic in this channel please @ornate lagoon

[true harness]

is that Square

[delicate bane]

maybe

[true harness]

i seem to have found an incredibly similar looking thing

[vapid jay]

Anyone knows tips about how to make a discord bot with command?

[vivid bane]

wdym

[peak halo]

@vapid jay @vivid bane please go to #discord-bots

[sharp brook]

Hello friends, I am trying to make a server client application with python socket. If the server is open with a loop in the client folder, there is a block like connect or try to connect again.
I can connect once without any problem.
but when I turn off and on more than one server, the client does not connect to the server a second time.
Please I would be very grateful if someone who knows python or understands these issues can reply.
thanks in advance

[summer roost]

Basing pay off of cost of living is the norm for companies with multiple locations, in my experience

[summer roost]

this doesn't appear to be related to careers.

[sharp brook]

sorry i didn't know where to post about my problem

[summer roost]

See #❓｜how-to-get-help

[delicate bane]

i assumed so but its usually not advertised as explicitly, correct?

[summer roost]

Pay transparency for job posts is becoming the law in some places

It's not common to see the exact bands spelled out like that, no - but it's becoming less rare, at least.

[white relic]

there's a subset of jobs where it's extremely common to have the pay scale published
i.e. all US government jobs

[delicate bane]

yeah those are all public info

[smoky quest]

And more laws are coming about that on Jan 1st.
One of them is to be able to access the pay bands of your role at your job

[delicate bane]

i knew NYC just passed a law about this but i didnt know there were more places (besides places like CO, etc.)

[smoky quest]

it varies from state to state. In some they have to display it, while in some others you have to ask

[summer roost]

if they're not required to display it and are choosing to anyway, they're doing it to send a message about their values.

[smoky quest]

I am not sure I would agree on that. It's not something employees would typically appreciate and it just creates more problems from the employer's pov

[summer roost]

I'm not sure I follow what you're saying. Are you trying to say that no company would ever display it without being legally required to? Or that some might, but their reason for doing it wouldn't be related to trying to send a message about their values?

[smoky quest]

I am saying that there wouldn't be much of an incentive to display the bands, if not required by law.
You can already display your interest in paying fairly employees (ex: stating you aim at the 75 %-tile and ensuring DEI).

Displaying the bands would less be used as a way to appreciate the interest and transparency of the company, and more as a way to compare oneself to their coworkers. This may hurt some pride and bring down some ego without having the opportunity to set the appropriate context. So in essence, more drama without the positive aspects of it.

[summer roost]

Well, we can both be right. My point is that displaying the bands when not required to is someone's idea of a good PR move, and your point is that it's probably not a particularly effective PR move. Both can be true 😄

[smoky quest]

That would be fair as well

Plus, there is a whole thing about double accounting. Pay scales displayed do not reflect the grants and bonuses, and that's one of the work around used sometimes

[ivory sluice]

i wonder how they're determining how granular a "geographic area" is. zip code? counties?

on a related note i have plans to move from a HCOL area to a LCOL area with the same employer, and am approved for becoming a 100% remote employee with no change in compensation. but i fear my future raises won't be as high as they would be if i were to stay in NY.

[smoky quest]

It could go from the main cities to something more specific.
But it wouldn't go as specific as counties. The chances of having a meaningful number of people with relevant titles within a county/zipcode is pretty low.

So in general, it will be tied to the average/percentile of the closest "big" city.
Ex: are you closer to San Antonio, Dallas or Austin

[ivory sluice]

sounds like a new service that HR and payroll providers could provide

[smoky quest]

yep. They don't hand roll that

[true harness]

I was asked that for remote positions. "closest metropolitan area"

[cosmic jacinth]

that sounds like it can be potentially gamed hardcore

[smoky quest]

until you pay taxes or need healthcare

[true harness]

or get paid?

[smoky quest]

I wouldn't expect it to be a problem as long as online deposit works

[cosmic jacinth]

as in, dont lie, but deliberately move to a location thats nearest to a really expensive area but is so far out it's cheap again

[smoky quest]

Frankly, there is no need to lie. In all likelihood, your team and HR won't care from where you work as long as you show up in the meetings, do your work and don't create legal headaches.

It's common for remote employees to have a base of operation and then travel

[cosmic jacinth]

yeah, but have that base of operation be nearest to an expensive area, so you qualify for the higher rate, while it's actually cheap because you live out in the sticks somewhere

[summer roost]

I suspect most people wouldn't move to a new metro area for only 10% more pay

[white relic]

that strategy also works just like... in general

[summer roost]

yeah. Jobs closer to HCOL areas have to pay more to attract and retain talent.

[white relic]

if you live close enough to a major city that you benefit from its nearness, but don't have to actually go there to spend money on a regular basis

there tend to be other drawbacks, like if you are far enough in the sticks that you have to go grocery shopping at dollar general

[summer roost]

but most people don't try to maximize their compensation at the expense of all else. For most people, the cost of leaving all of your friends and family and favorite places behind is pretty high, and I suspect that a lot of people would do it for 2x their pay, but not a lot would do it for 1.1x

[smoky quest]

Sure, as long as you have a legal presence there and have your healthcare setup there.
Be mindful that the healthcare options in your legal presence aren't the same than the ones in your location. And the taxes you pay will be based on both locations.

[cosmic jacinth]

i'm just theorycrafting here, i don't even live in the USA (yes, i am still awake pepePainLaugh)

[smoky quest]

That's why it's not that easy 😉
Easier to travel and use the travel mode of your healthcare than trying complicated setups. The gains aren't worth the headache

Note also that the quality of life wouldn't be the same in a HCOL vs a LCOL. While in a HCOL you may only be able to afford a tiny appartment, that could mean a very nice property in a lower col

[summer roost]

rural areas aren't exactly known for being the nicest places for immigrants and their families, also.

[smoky quest]

It's not that binary 😉

[summer roost]

Sure, but my point is that there are lots of considerations about where to set down roots beyond compensation and health care.

[ivory sluice]

what's the difference in healthcare between HCOL/LCOL?

availability of providers?

[smoky quest]

yeah

[woeful spruce]

LCOL is the way to go during these recessionary times

[summer roost]

What makes you say that?

[smoky quest]

A counter point could be that HCOL give access to more jobs, comparing to LCOL, and thus maybe helpful in times where jobs are more difficult to find

[summer roost]

yeah, that's immediately where my mind went.

[gritty rivet]

This is a lot less true now than it once was, with such a significant number of fully remote jobs. I suspect the current wave of layoffs is disproportionately impacting HCOL areas

[spark cobalt]

That's probably just because there's a disproportionately more developers in those areas though.

[smoky quest]

Given that I am remote, I do want to believe you are right :p

That said, that creates three questions:

• How were the recent layoffs impacting on-site vs remote employees? I have zero insight into that and would be curious if someone has
• Would the amount of remote jobs be sufficient to weather a bad recession?
• As some behaviors can be characterized as somewhat irrational, would a recession influence companies to refocus their workforce on on-site jobs?

[gritty rivet]

I've not seen good data yet, but it's just very hard for me to imagine that talent is going to ever be as geographically concentrated as it was pre-pandemic. Almost everyone I know still living in an HCOL area is talking about moving

[summer roost]

I suspect it's disproportionately affecting fully remote jobs...

Like, Twitter demanding all developers return to the office for "at least" 40 hours per week, for instance. Don't live near an office? 🤷‍♂️

[summer roost]

• How were the recent layoffs impacting on-site vs remote employees? I have zero insight into that and would be curious if someone has
  I don't have strong data on this, but anecdata seems to suggest that companies are demanding people return to the office as a way to try to force people to quit and avoid paying severance.

[spark cobalt]

Oh, a move away from remote.