career-advice

[peak plaza]

huh that could be a way but before u can freelance urself u need to have the ability to do the project on ur own already which is harder than just a part of a team

being *

[deft skiff]

i didnt say we should go freelance first

i think my path would look like
local dev jobs > more local dev jobs > freelance for foreign clients> apply for US jobs

and maybe get a degree along the way

or maybe migrating to US is the better choice

defeats the purpose of wanting to stay home though

[peak plaza]

Seems u have figured it out

I always wonder do expat employees needs to be much better than the local workforce since hiring expat might(? cost the employer more financially or politically tho some countries have a white list of companies that can spend less effort in hiring expat workers but limited amount of companies . If yes, then like how much more is expected from expat

[gritty rivet]

I'm in the US and my understanding is that in order to offer a visa, employers have to show that they made a signifcant effort to fill a role with domestic workers first. Plus, it's expensive for employers anyway even after demonstrating the legal need. So my point is, to be hired directly from abroad by a US company you need exceptional skills and experience.

When I worked at a large insurance company, there were many people hired from India on-site here in the US, but my understanding is that they were generally brought over through Indian partners like Tata Consulting. In other words, these expat workers didn't simply look for job listings in the US and apply directly to the US company (although in some cases maybe that did happen, I don't really know).

[peak plaza]

thx for sharing! I can understand n expect such condition still heartbroken to see😂

I heard about such work contracts for expat dev in Japan thru agency / consult companies but ppl shared negative attitude toward it kind of

[gritty rivet]

I don't know about Japan but if your primary goal is to get to another country, enrolling in university is probably the easiest route. In many countries you can convert to a work visa after graduation if an employer wants to hire you

[white relic]

in the US a lot of times it works like

• company lists a few generic openings
• a foreign person applies
• if the company is interested in hiring the person, they create a new opening specifically for that person, and post it on their website (this satisfies the legal requirement that the company attempt to hire domestically)
• meanwhile the foreign applicant has probably already interviewed and passed the usual hurdles, so they get the first offer and the position is basically filled as soon as legally allowed
• anybody else who happens to apply for the job isn't perfectly suited because the opening was written for them.

which isn't to say it's easy - for starters, many companies don't sponsor foreign nationals at all - but the legal requirement to try to hire domestically is rarely a meaningful roadblock.

[peak plaza]

I was wanting to ask how things would be from the perspective of the employers! Great that u share about the process. Still just during the job posting n hiring period, the employers need to make some extra steps for the foreign applicants, right. Wouldn’t that be a hurdle? What would make them interested in foreign applicants than local ones? I mean it would be differentiated from jobs but wonder what could one do in learning n working to gain some edges

[white relic]

It is a hurdle, which is why only some companies even bother to sponsor foreign nationals in the first place. I'm not sure if there is a broad preference for hiring domestically within companies that do sponsor visas, but it would make sense.

I currently work at a company that sponsors foreigners and to be honest a lot of the applicants we get are applying specifically because of that. (But our current workforce is still ~75% US citizens.)

It can be a matter of just not being cool enough or paying well enough to attract local talent.

[peak plaza]

Yeah that would be a way some can take just require one has the time n money to spend on it…

[peak plaza]

Didn’t expect this reason😅

[white relic]

The cool factor is definitely real. A company based in (say) Iowa might have trouble attracting highly skilled domestic workers because it's not a major tech center and people want to live on the coasts. Being willing to sponsor a visa greatly widens your applicant pool and many of them will be happy to move anywhere as long as it's in the US.

[peak plaza]

Interesting. Could be a stepping stone n an entry into a new country they like

Thx again for the info n perspectives from dowcet n trentj 👻

[spark cobalt]

Oh that's interesting info.

[placid valve]

lol

[prime drift]

I would love to hear what other people think of this. Not because I don't respect your opinion but because I value multiple point of view.

[gilded valley]

I'm also curious to hear other people's takes - especially people who are more in favour of the specialised degrees

[near ocean]

Specialisations should be left for postgrad studies imho

[prime drift]

Heres another thought is analytics degrees general or specific?

[gilded valley]

Specific

[gritty rivet]

I don't think anyone will disagree. A CS degree gives you the widest range of options. An Analytics degree is more specific, which is fine if you're fairly certain this is what you want to focus on. If you're not certain, better not to specialize

[icy nova]

Hello. Anyone really good at python interested in game development? You get a 13% cut of all game sales.
Just dm me!

[prime drift]

Do you think one could become a business analyst with a CS degree

[delicate bane]

oh yeah you can tell when a position is an "h1b visa position". also yeah its very company dependent (usually the bigger companies have more visa slots if they have it)

[peak halo]

I imagine that you could, but my googling indicates that most junior business analyst positions are filled by people with business-related degrees, and that senior business analyst positions often require a masters in business administration.

[prime drift]

Well maybe i should go for a analyst degree because I am interested in market analyst, business analyst, data analyst, and digital marketing

[peak halo]

makes sense to me. they might make you learn R instead of Python, though

[gritty rivet]

One could, I'm sure it happens and you could check LinkedIn to find those people. if that's your primary goal though, maybe a focused program makes sense. Or a biz analyst major with a CS minor.

Your personal goals are the main factor and I'd you don't intend on applying for SWE roles a CS major may not be the best fit

[gritty rivet]

That makes sense

[prime drift]

Thanks for all the help for the past couple of week really appreciate that also goes too @gilded valley and @peak halo

[dapper steppe]

I'm just starting python in hopes of making it a career 0 to hero if you like, any advice? i have 2 years and 2 months

[gritty rivet]

If you're choosing not to get a degree of any kind, it's going to severely limit your options

That said, it's not impossible... the main things to do are build a solid portfolio of projects and a network of contacts on similar paths.

[cosmic jacinth]

if you have the option, go to college and do a degree in CS/CE - quite likely you'll learn way more useful stuff, especially in an applied uni

[dapper steppe]

i dont have that option unfortunatly

I'm a stay at home dad

I am currently a quarter of the way through the udemy.com course

[cosmic jacinth]

that's a bit rough then, maybe consider some sort of online uni? those do exist, tho i'm not sure about anything beyond that

[elfin marsh]

Is it infinitely harder to get a job as a software engineer self taught ?

[cosmic jacinth]

i'd imagine so - from what i've heard going the 9 years to get a bachelors' (got myself into a funny situtation there, so it'll take longer than usual) would still be worth it on my part

[elfin marsh]

I see so many YouTubers getting jobs self taught

[gritty rivet]

Infinitely? No... 10x harder? Probably. 100x maybe. Not sure how to measure

[cosmic jacinth]

well lemme tell you that you won't see many youtubers that didn't get the job - understandably enough not many people want to share their failures online

[gritty rivet]

For each of those people, how many failed? The failures aren't on YouTube. This is called survivor bias

[elfin marsh]

Yeah there is some truth to that .

I went through a Udemy course and it wasn't enough knowledge for me to tackle university level questions .

[cosmic jacinth]

well, you spend 4 years minimum at uni studying like a madman, so that's kinda understandable :V

[gritty rivet]

A popular online university is WGU.edu

If you're interested in IT operations, the bar for entry is MUCH lower, and that experience can help you break in to development later. Of course help desk and desktop support also pay a lot less, so it's not the best path for everyone

[dapper steppe]

I am not expecting to finish the course and get a job that's just step one for learning the basics of the syntax.

[elfin marsh]

I'm just really wondering if it even pays off at the end like how many even get into faang level companies (these are the ones that pay well) not many I would say.

[cosmic jacinth]

well, the way i see it as a naïve 20yo that messed his education up is that you'd have to compensate in some aspect - like having significant enough projects completed

and even then, it's not a guarantee your resumé won't be yeeted out the window automatically on the basis of not having a degree

[delicate bane]

this cannot be said enough times. many younger folks have a skewed perception due to this survivorship bias seen all across social media

[cosmic jacinth]

this is starting to get real old (referring to a now deleted message)

[delicate bane]

i would say this holds true for all fields and not just programming

[gritty rivet]

Please delete this and read the rules

[white relic]

Consider taking online classes in some kind of actual degree program. Even if you aren't able to take a full course load, being enrolled in college is preferable to just having taken some courses on udemy

[elfin marsh]

Hmm I don't think anyone can expect like a huge paycheck either for someone inexperienced even though a fresh grad.

[cosmic jacinth]

i'd imagine it'll still be way easier to get your foot in the door as a uni grad

[elfin marsh]

I often wonder sometimes if the actual pros got good from school or from actual work experience lol

[dapper steppe]

i don't really have the money for it or i defo would, i am 39 and been a stay at home dad for last 12 years son has severe autism

[elfin marsh]

Sorry that hear that rapiid that's tough

[white relic]

what's your prior level of education? high school?

[elfin marsh]

Hang in there and there are many routes to try if you're really invested in programming but I guess a uni level program would be a good similarity to job interview questions perhaps.

[cosmic jacinth]

yknow, i honestly wonder if i should just walk up to some recruitment agency, submit my (awful) resumé and see if i can land an IT support or similar job to pass the time

[elfin marsh]

I'm in IT support lol and no it's not awful

[dapper steppe]

yea been rough and I'm slapping myself for no realizing how fast time has gone. So i have 2 years and a few months to try and sort my life out i did shit at school started working at 16 as a upholster which is now a pretty dead profession where i live as it cost 5x the amount of money to reupholster something than just buy new. So i was recommended to learn python.

[cosmic jacinth]

i meant my resumé, not the job kekw

[elfin marsh]

Ahh gotcha

[gritty rivet]

For entry level IT support roles, CompTIA certifications can be a huge boost on your resume. I think the exams are like $300

[cosmic jacinth]

ngl i don't even have that amount of cash to spend

[dapper steppe]

yea I'm from the uk

[cosmic jacinth]

and i doubt i can just walk up to a position, say "hey i'm half-decent at not completely screwing up a linux machine" and land a job

[elfin marsh]

Well support roles are more forgiving than programmer ones.

[gritty rivet]

Without formal certifications, it's all about projects that you can show off or at least talk about in an interview

[elfin marsh]

Programming is tough that's why it's paid well perhaps.

[cosmic jacinth]

projects in... IT-support?

[gritty rivet]

If you're trying to be a Linux admin, then sure. Not so much for desktop support roles

[dapper steppe]

uk is screaming for ppl that can use python i did one job search 17,149 jobs related to python on 1 website

[elfin marsh]

I also had the misconception that i would be building glorious apps or websites from the start in uni not doing puzzles -.-

[cosmic jacinth]

admin? we shooting right for the clouds?

[elfin marsh]

Why not Linux admin is a much easier path .

[cosmic jacinth]

easi-er, yeah - not necessarily easy for some random guy who just barely finished compulsory education after fighting against his adhd and puberty mood-swings

[gritty rivet]

Even if you're aiming for general support, and concrete demonstration of technical skills may help

[elfin marsh]

Sigh I'm not sure why I'm having such a hard time in uni when I did have some experience in c++

Especially in structured programming been out of school for quite some time now for personal reasons.

[cosmic jacinth]

plus it's not like entry level support roles are exactly in plentiful supply here - why hire a local swiss guy when you can go to eastern europe and hire people for 1/3rd the price - i'm really just not liking my odds either way

or am i being way too much of a cynical butthole here?

[white relic]

Well, Python is a great thing to know, but 2 years to find a programming job without a degree sounds hard. Definitely possible but there are no guarantees. Idk about UK jobs specifically

[elfin marsh]

Nah ur right plus a lot of processes are automated and rightly so less administration errors.

[gritty rivet]

A very small share of those jobs will be open to someone with no degree or relevant employment history.... But, you can build a strong portfolio and patiently keep applying for jobs while you upgrade your skills and with enough persistence it may pay off. Two years is a pretty good timeline for that, but expect it to be a lot of hard work

[dapper steppe]

yea all i need is one chance to slip in the door

[white relic]

yeah but you can be waiting a long time for that good chance

[elfin marsh]

Uni questions are similar to university questions to some extent so yeah a uni program of some sort is still the way to go.

[gritty rivet]

I don't know about Europe but here in the US, level 1 support jobs are always hiring because of the low pay and the churn... It's just a temporary foot in the door so good people do it for as little as 6 mo and move on.

[white relic]

would be a good idea to have a temporary fallback plan in case your timeline runs out and you haven't found a job yet
IT support has synergy with programming and probably easier to get an entry level job in

[dapper steppe]

i have nothing but time atm. i can keep working on building CV up while looking also

[elfin marsh]

All the very best to you rapiid.

[white relic]

I wish you the best 👍

[cosmic jacinth]

like, i really don't know whether it's even worth my time bothering to apply at all - seeing as "just finished mandatory school and needs a temporary job until next year" isn't exactly the best hook in a CV for a potential employer

[gritty rivet]

I did about four years in general IT support before I switched to Python dev. Probably longer than necessary but the experience definitely helped

[cosmic jacinth]

and from what i can gather company culture here doesn't shy away from just leaving positions empty until someone more suitable is found

[dapper steppe]

tnx for the help and scaring the shit out of me for being a dumb fuck and not having a degree just motivates me harder

[gritty rivet]

There's no harm in applying if you don't have a better plan.

[elfin marsh]

And no one hires uni students who are still in school as well even though you're literally learning it that's what sucks the most. They just want that piece of paper.

[gritty rivet]

LOL I think that's the right response... Good luck!

[near ocean]

Plenty of people hire students, most of them are conditional on them finishing the degree tho

[elfin marsh]

Yeah on lower wage lol

[cosmic jacinth]

is there though? because i could spend my time applying on more productive stuff like toying around with laplace transforms or yknow, writing big complaints on discord about it not being worth it to finding the job because complaining about stuff feels nice

[white relic]

people who are still in school generally need scheduling allowances to attend classes, that kind of thing

[near ocean]

Theyre more of a risk, hence the lower pay

[white relic]

or you hire them for a summer and then they disappear

[summer roost]

They have lower credentials and lower experience, so of course they command lower pay

[elfin marsh]

Fair enough .

[cosmic jacinth]

oh well, guess it doesn't hurt visiting a recruiting agency, maybe they'll know of some random IT support positions that are desperate enough

[idle sleet]

Hi 👋

I'm looking for a career/job where I'll be able to work on (my own) projects.

Where I'm going with this, I used to develop video games in the past and I really loved the idea of creating something of your own. Building your own project, and giving something of yourself to it. I enjoy the freedom, the limitlessness, the creativity, and how gradually nothing becomes something great.

So Game Developer sounds awesome to me- Uh not really...
As I grew up, I felt that making games is pointless, that I wouldn't be of any use. To clarify, my motive in life is to make something, to leave something behind, to be able to say that I have contributed something to our world. Of course, we can argue that video games are important for entertainment, but my mind tells me not...

Do you know,
what other jobs would meet my description?

[delicate bane]

many times hiring students even as an intern results in negative productivity. (obv this depends on the individual, but many students have to be told exactly what to do step by step which drains a lot of others' time)

so companies that do this are usually investing in the long game

[peak halo]

I wouldn't discount the value of video games. those can be art as much as movies and books are art. but I'm not sure how you could get the creative freedom you seem to want unless you were operating a startup, or something. because employees and freelancers have to make whatever is required of them.

[buoyant seal]

Getting a lot of freedom is luxury
Possible to achieve quickly only in startups through taken main Dev position

[delicate bane]

founding engineer when

[idle sleet]

Umm I'm really clueless.

Lately I'm overthinking my future career and job. I want to decide what I want to do, but I don't know what I can do best and what entertains me the most.

[buoyant seal]

Your desired level of freedom can be achieved only in becoming your own boss, entrepreneur.

Salary becomes your own problem too though

I secretly wish to get it... In 5-10 years or something

[deft skiff]

is work similar to doing solo projects?

[idle sleet]

I feel so bad and stressed because of that. I want to finally decide to what I want to do and what are my goals.

I want to work on something now. Like study for my future career or job

[delicate bane]

you can always change your mind later on if you find out you dont like something. dont feel as though you are locked in and must decide now 100%. obv there are always other potential future factors to consider like family, etc. but i wouldnt let that stop you

[buoyant seal]

The first choice matters to define first years of career, but as long as you choose speciality in IT that is having to learn full specter of Software Engineering, i think migrating between different sub specializations is quite fine

Like... One u learn Software Engineering, u can become any.. Mobile/Desktop/Backend/Frontend Devoper/Devops/Or even different lead positions/Analyst/QA of any other sort or whatever else is present in IT

[stoic timber]

From my experience no, I do some Excel and Power BI projects at work. Even though I do most of the designing & creating myself, I still need other people's help sometimes for access to data sources, access to software etc. If it was my own solo project I would have more freedom

[idle sleet]

Ahhh. It would be best to try every possible job in the world for 1 day and decide what suits me best. Where do I have the most fun, what do I have talent for, ....

[near ocean]

this is what internships and spring weeks are for

[buoyant seal]

Technically that is what for university and degree. During it u are getting exposure to multiple flavours of dev

[elfin marsh]

Is it true that programming jobs are usually very time sensitive and pressured?

Just want to get a scope of what a programmer does on a day to day.

[delicate bane]

yes i recommend what the others have said. different internships can help you decide if you like parts of a role or not

[near ocean]

it depends on the industry and the competency of your manager i would say

as for what programmers do everyday, again, it depends on the company
i can only describe my experience
we operate in sprints, which are 2-week periods
at the start of each sprint, our team lead sorts out the backlog, gathers tickets for the sprint and goes through them, explaining the ticket and possible routes for investigation
we decide on which tickets we want to pick up if any
we do daily standups, we work on tickets, most of the work is spent on reproducing the issue at hand, the programming part is fairly trivial, I spend most of the day raging at old code, in calls with my seniors, in calls with their seniors

[mortal wedge]

Hah!

[near ocean]

tickets take a 2-3 days of work each on average (for me anyway so far) so I pick up around 3-5 tickets every sprint
i do fullstack so i touch a wide range of the product in a sprint, from simple css changes to new backend features

all in a day's work

[delicate bane]

raging at old code
i think this is pretty common

[mortal wedge]

We also use jira and sprints with stand ups and such. We have month long sprints and we discuss tickets and stuff like that. I do r&d though so aside from pressing requests I have a lot of leeway to decide projects as long as I can justify how they’d bring value to the business

[cosmic jacinth]

i dread the day i can't just throw my old code out the window anymore

[near ocean]

theres a lot more time spent on agile and scrum ceremony than people would think
and also terrible terrible project management software like jira, confluence, this and that

[mortal wedge]

Not a fan on kanban boards /jira?

Oh man confluence documentation so glad I automated that

[near ocean]

Im a big fan of kanban boards but not when it feels like a part time job working them

[mortal wedge]

Fair point

[near ocean]

i used to use youtrack from jetbrains and managing my board and assorted tickets was so much easier than whatever jira is doing

[summer roost]

Oh god do I hate Jira. I have no idea how that software managed to gain so much market share. It's objectively crap. I'd rather use a spreadsheet.

[near ocean]

rather have post-it notes on my laptop screen lmao

[delicate bane]

💀

[near ocean]

my team lead also handles all the jira shit so at least i dont have to worry about it as much

[mortal wedge]

Nice. I just get annoyed noises from my manager when it gets too out of date but usually a morning can clean it up

[near ocean]

this isnt the place to ask for jobs, shouldnt you have secured an opportunity before your contract ended?

[mortal wedge]

The only thing that comes to mind is that oftentimes companies do "contract to hire" positions but it's still up to the employee imo to figure out if it's going to go to a "hire" ending

[ebon sun]

You'd be surprised by the opportunities to find code solutions in any job. It's nothing major, but in my analyst job I write a lot of stuff that just makes my life and my team's lives easier.

[idle sleet]

I would love to come up with project ideas and implement them.
For example: Tree-planting drone, Trash collecting drone
What job does offer this?

Like use modern technology, AI,... to address climate problems

[toxic oar]

that's more related to hardware than software?

[smoky quest]

agritech type of jobs. But that would go against your other constraint of being alone

[idle sleet]

I don't need to be alone. It would fulfill my idea of coming up with my own idea and implementing the project with a team.

[smoky quest]

Ah then that would be any job with enough seniority

[idle sleet]

Agritech is nice idea, thanks! That would be about the tree-planting drone idea. But what about like the example of trash collecting drone?

What is that area of tech called?

[smoky quest]

That's hyper specific. There isn't a huge market. So you would have to find the 1-2 companies that exist in your country that aim at that

[toxic oar]

that looks like reforestation?

on agro big machines are used to plant

[idle sleet]

I would like to develop small robots/drones to help the environment, planet, nature...

[near ocean]

Maybe you should slow down a bit, what stage in your life are you in right now? High schooler/uni/working professional?

[toxic oar]

about trash collection, I see a point on small scale like cleaning pleasure grounds

[white relic]

I find it hard to imagine what kind of job would put you in that role generally (inventing machines to save the planet)

[idle sleet]

high schooler

[near ocean]

Ok, then your first goal is getting into university

[idle sleet]

Sorry, that's stupid hint

[toxic oar]

the climate change thing is very niche, some companies try to use it for marketing

[peak halo]

What do you mean "that's stupid hint"?

[white relic]

like, everybody wants to be mark rober, but you have to be insanely lucky and/or be rich first

[smoky quest]

You would be surprised how it's not that obvious to many people asking questions here

[near ocean]

Uh what? University is the only place you'll get to play with robotics
no uni, no building robots of any kind

[idle sleet]

Well, obviously my goal is getting into university.

[peak halo]

"that's stupid hint" isn't a meaningful sentence, so let's give them a moment to explain what they meant.

[toxic oar]

probably a good path would work on improving recycling rather than building those drones, here I guess you can find many jobs

[peak halo]

So you meant "that's a stupid suggestion". "Hint" is not a synonym for "suggestion" in any variety I know of.

But yes, a lot of young people in this channel think that they'll be able to start a developer career just as easily without getting a degree.

[white relic]

I would suggest taking a field of study like mechanical engineering or biochemical engineering, which would set you up to do the kind of thing you're talking about while also having good prospects for a decent career until that point

[cosmic jacinth]

so bit of a question, would you think it's worth it going to university if it'd take 5 years to be able to start a bachelor's

[smoky quest]

Industrial automation or just CS would work well too on the software/embedded side.

[smoky quest]

I know a few folks who got their degrees in their late 20s and have a happy and successful career

[idle sleet]

What I'm trying to say is that I want to know what is my dedication, my goal. I have anxiety because of not knowing what to do with my life lately. So I'm looking for a best career option, that would entertain me, feed me and make me passionate.

I know I want to aim on technology area, robotics, cybernetics, or AI

[smoky quest]

No one can answer that for you.
Your best bet is to try different things and see what you enjoy and how big is the job market for them

[cosmic jacinth]

mh so youre saying tough it out and still aim for the bachelor's/master's if i somehow manage to enjoy it enough to continue?

[smoky quest]

Are you the person I talked to last time who would graduate by 29 with a bs/license?

[cosmic jacinth]

yes, i'm still here nagging i'm afraid

[toxic oar]

some people are too worried about age

[peak halo]

I supported myself for three of the years I spent working on my undergraduate degree. The way the US economy is heading, we might get to a point where that simply isn't possible.

Only you can decide how many years it's worth working towards something without getting it. Are there other career types that interest you that you could start more quickly?

[near ocean]

Thats 9 more years of schooling though, i think they mentioned theyre 20

[elder forge]

It is not very difficult to imagine robots/ai/etc that can help humanity, the challenge is finding the opportunities finding the right solution for the right problem.
Does a trash picking robot make sense? how big must the battery be? how does it identify trash? what is the error rate, what is the failure rate, what are the alternative means to remove trash, etc. There are plenty of trash removal projects that have generated more trash than they removed.
Answering these kinds of questions is really difficult, and typically requires you to have a wide breadth of knowledge outside of your own field.
If you truly want to pursue this path, you must make the most of your time in university and pick up courses outside of your study program.

[smoky quest]

I mean, it's all up to you.
Note that university/college are very different from high school and more fun and interesting.

Also for reference, in other countries, the mandatory education would stop at around ~18years old, and then add 3 years for a license and another 2 for a masters. (sometimes longer or shorter, with different tweaks)

[cosmic jacinth]

"interest", thatd be none
annoy the least thatd be something mathsy and involving computers, like yknow, low-ish level programming

[idle sleet]

I have thought about drone having AI image recognition powered vision and recognizing the trash.

[elder forge]

at some point you will be 30, and at some point you will be 40. You cannot change these facts.
However, you can choose to have a degree or, you can choose to remain in your current profession.

[peak halo]

I think this is something a lot of young people struggle with at some point. But you don't have to know what you want to do yet, and even if you get to a point where you feel dead set on one goal, it's okay if you change your mind.

[cosmic jacinth]

yah, the thing is in order to even start uni i'd have to slog through 5 years' worth of high-school esque education

and i just know myself and worry i'll get burnt out again and mess it up

[peak halo]

I work for a non-profit that uses AI to solve different problems. AI drones that pick up trash is a cool idea, but it will take you several years to learn enough about AI that you could tackle that problem, and you don't know what problems will be most pressing by that time and which problems society will be willing to throw money at.

[smoky quest]

Then look for other options like bootcamp or self taught, or something less ambitious.
Shortening that education would also incur the cost of potential loss of earning and lower career, but that's a trade off

[idle sleet]

Of course, but then you could say that about anything.

How do you know we will be alive in several years?

But I got your point.

[white relic]

could you apply to universities in other countries? US institutions would likely accept your schooling as "high school equivalent"

[peak halo]

My point is that your goal shouldn't be excessively narrow.

[leaden knot]

Trash picking is not an AI/ML problem

[elder forge]

That part is qualitative. It is a yes/no question. It is indeed feasible to build a system with a camera that communicates over 5g to process images and pick up trash.
The challenge is in the lifetime of the drone, the flight time of the drone, the mechanical reliability of the arm, etc.
The actual challenges of the task requires more knowledge of physics and cybernetics than it does programming.

[leaden knot]

Also, please don't ever throw AI/ML to solve every problem. It is clear not every problem has to be solved with AI or ML.

[toxic oar]

you need to pick and transport with high security since a trash can contain toxic things

[cosmic jacinth]

perhaps, but then I'd have to go to university in the USA, the horror, but i'm not sure it even counts as such

[peak halo]

What would be wrong with robots that clean trash?

[leaden knot]

Waste management is a serious city problem globally, and picking up litter isn't the way to go about it

[white relic]

you have a point there, but I mean... in the US you don't have to go back and do high school again if you dropped out, you just get a GED and apply to a slightly less selective college

[smoky quest]

It's a random idea from a HS trying to find their career. I wouldn't overthink it that much

[toxic oar]

yes

[idle sleet]

But by solving those little problems gradually we will get to some better point.

[elder forge]

but if you want to solve this problem, studying ML/AI is not the right path

[toxic oar]

the whole climate change thing requires behavorial changes which takes generations

[smoky quest]

It can be depending on the specific problem. But that's outside the scope of #career-advice

[white relic]

crossing a country border (and it wouldn't have to be the US, that's just the only education system I really understand) to get admitted to a bachelor's program seems like it should be quite doable

[toxic oar]

well, there is reputation

[leaden knot]

There are serious problems that AI/ML still aim to tackle, like in medicine

[idle sleet]

Alright, thanks everyone for every message. I don't want to look more foolish than I already look now. These answers are enough, thanks.

[toxic oar]

In some countries there are public universities but bachelor degrees arent that long, around 4-5 years for most degrees

[smoky quest]

Most countries are pretty close in their admission standards. If they can't join their current country, there may be a similar problem in others

[white relic]

like I said, I only really understand the US, but here "I took the wrong kind of high school" would not be met with "oh, better go back to high school until you're 24"

[elder forge]

You did well putting yourself out there and asking questions. I look forward to seeing where you are in 5 years, as I am convinced it will be somewhere good ❤️

[cosmic jacinth]

fair nuff, or maybe find something in europe thats not as selective - the trouble becomes, now one must find a university that's preferrably not just outright a degree mill, but also not too stringent on it - so the complexity is now shifted on finding a uni that offers that, and i kinda don't trust myself to not screw it up more than i already did my high school stuff

[smoky quest]

Obviously not. But the admission standard would be more like "need a highschool diploma or equivalent"

[white relic]

and in the USA you can just take a test for that "equivalent"

[smoky quest]

yep. And all the better for them if it works out!
I see no reason to be different for their country

[toxic oar]

in selection processes the university the diploma is from has some weight on the decision, no?

[cosmic jacinth]

i don't think there's that option here in switzerland, but maybe i'm not looking hard enough idk

[white relic]

it might not be every college but like... you can probably find an admissions department who's willing to see that you did "high school in another country in a different system but I'm looking to reset my education" as an equivalent

[smoky quest]

There are exceptions, but in general, no

[jagged falcon]

Est-ce qu'il y des français ici ?

[smoky quest]

!rule 4

[inner wren]

Rules

4. Use English to the best of your ability. Be polite if someone speaks English imperfectly.

[white relic]

Moreover, even if it takes 2 years to get accepted to a bachelor's program in the US but it takes 5 years to go through whatever the local high school equivalent is...

[jagged falcon]

Mmm ok

[toxic oar]

for medicine I heard you can do a test to have your diploma recognized in another country

validated*

[white relic]

we're talking about the equivalent of a high school diploma, not a specialized field

[cosmic jacinth]

trouble is, it's kind of not really a high school equivalent i don't think, since it's only around 9 years of school

and the best part is, ive studied the stuff i'm interested in on my own in my free time, so i wouldnt even have that to look forward to

[smoky quest]

Have you looked into any path where you could get an equivalent to highschool without having to go through highschool from scratch?

[white relic]

yeah, but here, we don't have the "go back to high school" option, so that just doesn't compute

[cosmic jacinth]

not going to lie, i'm not sure such a thing even exists here

[white relic]

if you're over 18 and want to get into university, you just apply (probably after getting a GED)

[smoky quest]

but have you looked?

[cosmic jacinth]

i mean, yeah, but i'm not sure whether i just missed it while it was right under my nose

[smoky quest]

Any career counselor or career/job office you could hit up?

even a previous teacher

[cosmic jacinth]

funnily enough, i did just that - and now that you mention, they suggested the path that i can prove to the commission that ive learned the stuff on my own at a company - the trouble is, that the companies doing so require a grant from a special insurance company here, which we submitted for in may

it is now november

which is why i'm slowly starting to rule that out as a realistic option

[white relic]

honestly I think you could get into a lot of US universities with no additional paperwork. Just, like, don't pin your hopes on MIT or Brown, but my university was not particularly choosy and accepted plenty of applicants with less than stellar records both inside the country and out

[smoky quest]

What if you apply for it next may? Would that still be shorter than redoing the whole HS?

[cosmic jacinth]

they havent rejected it - theyre just taking a horrendously long time for it

[white relic]

sorry to be pounding the "go to college in US" route, it's just an idea but worth considering you may have more options than you realize.

[leaden knot]

My university is particularly choosy when accepting applicants (especially to popular courses) but it doesn't mean anything

[cosmic jacinth]

so the 2 primary alternatives are self study, and hope a potential company ignores the massive transgression of not having a degree, which is not a guarantee in the slightest

or eat the poop sandwich and repeat highschool

[leaden knot]

Though I will also say, in US, college debt is not workable

[smoky quest]

they are on the old continent

[white relic]

I am aware

[smoky quest]

it is super workable for a cs degree

[cosmic jacinth]

and yeah i wouldnt even remotely have the funding to go to university in the usa

[leaden knot]

This relies on current pay, which I suppose is not too risky

[cosmic jacinth]

thatd assume theres always going to be massive demand for programmers - which yknow, kind of a lot can change over the span of a few years

[white relic]

luckily you barely have to! just have to pinky swear you'll pay it back 🙃

[cosmic jacinth]

but yeah my doubts stem from the fact that i'm looking for an entry level support position, and even that wants completed apprenticeships (which you do in conjunction with our equivalent of highschool), so it ain't looking too good on that front if i want to push into something like embedded

[smoky quest]

That won't change in the next 10 years. Software is eating the world

[cosmic jacinth]

i prefer not to get into legal hot waters that could potentially have disastrous consequences

[gritty rivet]

Depends on the school too. A lot of people do their first two years at community college which costs next to nothing, most public universities are reasonable for state students. It's quite feasible to get a degree without excessive levels of debt.

I had about 40k (I could have easily had much less if I wasn't stupid about money) and paid it off in a few years working entry-level IT.

So I'm not making excuses for US education system here, but unless your financial situation is exceptionally bad, a degree is obtainable here without unworkable debt

[cosmic jacinth]

there's also problems besides that

• getting a visa in the first place
• supporting oneself
• getting there in the first place

the nice thing about europe is that 2 out of the above 3 are decently possible

[buoyant seal]

why don't u do it in europe then?

[summer roost]

I'd strongly suggest trying to find a forum where CS professionals from your country hang out, and asking them if they can offer any advice.

[cosmic jacinth]

i'm 90% sure the advice will be to just do high school again, which is what i'll likely end up doing if the insurance company keeps ghosting me

i just know i will absolutely loathe it, which is why i'm here to some extent

[white relic]

surely there must be at least one country in the schengen zone that has a GED equivalent thing, or a university that accepts non-traditional students, or something

[summer roost]

the point of asking for advice is to avoid guessing. They may have better ideas than you're coming up with.

[white relic]

maybe it's just my Americentric bias, but I can't imagine applying to a college and being told I didn't suffer through enough high school and I have to go back for 5 more years

[smoky quest]

There are. There are evening classes to get equivalent of hs and even licenses/ms

[cosmic jacinth]

hope for the best, expect the worst ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[summer roost]

I can't imagine that there aren't less time consuming paths available to you, but I can't tell you what they are, and someone who understands your country's systems better would be able to.

[cosmic jacinth]

honestly i'm not even sure i'm trying to do anything but cope with the fact that i'll have to do highschool for another 5 years

[white relic]

I mean, heck, in the US you could enlist in the military, complete your active duty and start your education paid for by the government in less than that

[buoyant seal]

hehe, bad advice it will be if he is from Russia or Ukraine. Or from Siria or other not so... calm countries.

[summer roost]

You're not going to get any better advice here than a bunch of people saying "that sounds wrong to me", it seems.

[buoyant seal]

Also being in military = is getting your brains screwed for year+ time, and having lost speed momentum in education and job career
it will be more difficult to get back on track

[white relic]

yeah, not really a serious suggestion. Although I have known non-US persons who signed up for the (US) armed services in order to avoid worse issues at home

I don't think not having a high school equivalent education counts but still

[cosmic jacinth]

oh well, point taken, look for stuff that doesnt require me to redo highschool

[white relic]

young people often suffer from a lack of imagination when it comes to problem-solving

[buoyant seal]

what is your current educational background? that statement sounds a bit wrong to me potentially. And country

[cosmic jacinth]

educational background - some random eejit who is interested in maths, computers and a bit of science, self studied a chunk of it, but who squeaked through 9 years' worth of mandatory education with great difficulty, switzerlnd

[buoyant seal]

What languages do you speak (and at which level in A1-C2-D2 system)?

[cosmic jacinth]

german to essentially native level (i'd hope), same for english (again, i'd hope), decent italian, probably round B1 level, same for russian, and maybe around A1 level in french (the bits and pieces i remember from half a decade ago)

[white relic]

like in the latest spider-man film where Peter doesn't realize ||he can actually just call MIT's admissions department and ask them to reconsider their decision||
sometimes you don't know what power you have

[cosmic jacinth]

||reminds me of this https://youtu.be/24uyz_LkX-4||

[buoyant seal]

okay, so essentially... a major of german speaking europe is open for you for education and for job seeking.
Plus english world for educations and job seeking is open as well
Switzerland is part of Shengen visa area.

If u want to go into IT, then seek options for higher education i guess indeed in your own country, or nearby countries if wishing
US option is possible too, just more costly investment. So kind of depends on your money funds.
Check what are options for lower cost of higher education in your own country first of course. As citizen u could be having some kind of advantages

[buoyant seal]

Anyway, i think lowest risk plan is just getting higher education in your own country, conquering your local market first at least in first 2-3 years of career -> then feel free to siege US if u wish

as citizen of your own country, u will always have easier chance to get hired to entry jobs

[cosmic jacinth]

again, it's not the cost that would be in my own country, it'd be the fact that i'd have to slog through 4-5 years of high school before even entering university at all unless there's some other path to get some sort of high school certificate equivalent

[buoyant seal]

wait a second. What is wrong with your educational system? U said u a already in 9th year? Aren't u able in 2 years to enter university or even now?

https://www.internations.org/switzerland-expats/guide/education#:~:text=Compulsory education in Switzerland lasts,some cantons it is four.
Google claims u have only 9 to 11 years of compulsory educational system as well. I would assume after that u can enter university, you can't?

[cosmic jacinth]

not in the slightest

[summer roost]

unless there's some other path to get some sort of high school certificate equivalent
I honestly find it impossible to imagine that there isn't. It sounds ridiculous to me that there wouldn't be.

[cosmic jacinth]

i am done with my 9th year

in order to get your Berufsmaturität, which is a prerequisite for any sort of applied university you must complete a 4 year apprenticeship+vocational school program to get a certificate which serves as the equivalent of high school here, plus another year of passerelle/transitional to get up to snuff for a more "pure" university - and only then i can even start a bachelor's, unless, again, there's another way to get that piece of paper

[summer roost]

I really think that Swiss professionals are much likely to have good ideas about what the shortest path to a job is for someone in your position than any of the regular contributors in this channel.

[buoyant seal]

well, u could research if it is everywhere in switz so... if yes... u have plenty of countries nearby to you, which u can enter very easily with shengen visa.

[white relic]

come to think of it, I have known someone who moved from switzerland to the US and found high school too dull, so he applied to the prestige state school and was accepted at 16. (this was a few decades ago admittedly)

[cosmic jacinth]

well yes, i'm looking to do it via learning it in a workplace, problem is, no company will (obviously) do it out of goodwill, and the insurance company that grants the money for it is taking massive amounts of time to decide

i think there was some case of it being in limbo for 5 years even

[smoky quest]

there are similar stories from people coming from EU or Asia to the USA

[summer roost]

I'm not sure what else to say. I don't know the system in your country, but I'm absolutely shocked if it's as inflexible as you're saying it is. And I strongly suspect that Swiss professionals would be the best people to either confirm your beliefs or refute them.

[cosmic jacinth]

yeah guess i should ask again - thing is i did ask someone and that's what they suggested

[buoyant seal]

indeed. U need some inside info how your other CS people go with it. No way that everyone studies that long

[white relic]

as I understand, they are at a disadvantage because they took the "wrong" path early on

but still, to not have a lateral option

[summer roost]

it sounds like a totally normal amount of studying, the problem is that they skipped some of it, and they're trying to figure out some way to get back on track, preferably without starting from exactly where they left off.

[buoyant seal]

i mean... 11 years of school + 4 years pre university + 4 years of university to reach bacherlor's degree, that is not normal for at least 4 years xD

[cosmic jacinth]

i guess i could ask my dad who works at a local company to hand me a position, but that's called nepotism and is generally considered a huge d*** move, so id yknow, rather not

[buoyant seal]

today it is called social networking

[cosmic jacinth]

like, i would seriously not want to do that unless the alternative is starving to death

[summer roost]

They have completed less than 11 years of school, as I understand.

[cosmic jacinth]

yeah it's 9, not 11 - you do 12 if you go to grammar school, but then you can immediately jump to university

[summer roost]

basically, they didn't complete high school, and they're trying to figure out if there's some path to getting a CS job or a university without it.

[buoyant seal]

some people are born with brains, some with money, some with connections. Your any advantage is an advantage 😐 Some people have nothing out of those three things.
That's kind of answering how people like Bill Gates or Zuckerberg succeeded despite being dropouts. They had plenty in those three advantages to bend normal system.

[cosmic jacinth]

even so, i'd feel like an absolute scumbag for the rest of my tenure there

[summer roost]

And in the US, that path would be a GED (giving you the prerequisites for university) or possibly a tech boot camp (giving you the prerequisites for an industry job). I can't imagine that there's no equivalent to either of those in the Swiss system, but I don't know it.

[cosmic jacinth]

yknow, an absolutely hilariously dumb idea would be getting a GED and seeing if a uni here in europe accepts it

think i'd have better luck playing the lottery though

[summer roost]

Would you be stuck there, or would you be able to move to other companies once you've acquired some experience?

[cosmic jacinth]

well given i can now list "job experience" i'd imagine the odds would be greater

would they be significantly above 0 is the question, and that i'm not particularly sure about

[summer roost]

leveraging connections to "break into" the industry wouldn't be such a bad thing, especially if you do have the skills required to perform the job, and especially if those skills would enable you to get other jobs in the future.

[cosmic jacinth]

if.

[summer roost]

Honestly, I'll just keep saying this: no one here is intimately familiar with the Swiss system, and someone who knows the Swiss system would be able to help you answer that "if"

there has to be somewhere where Swiss software developers hang out. Find them, and ask them. Maybe tech meetups? Linux user groups? A Swiss tech discord or IRC? Some subreddit? There must be somewhere where Swiss professionals hang and talk.

[cosmic jacinth]

boh - i think i'm just coping at having to slug through 4-5 years of vocational at this point tbh

if there was an option, i'm 90% sure it'd have come up by now, though i suppose there's no harm in asking more

[undone willow]

Are AWS developer certifications good to have for self taught developers?

[cosmic jacinth]

either way i think the required actions are clear now, so, thanks for putting up with me over the last couple hours/days 😛

[smoky quest]

In what way? For developer, pretty much useless.
For SRE/ops, that could have a bit of value

[summer roost]

I think AWS certs are among the most valuable certs - but that's still not very valuable.

[peak halo]

I thought there was a singular "AWS Certification" and that it (almost uniquely among developer certs) has weight for those who hire cloud devs.

[smoky quest]

There are a bunch. There is a whole industry of certs

Cloud dev is also a very overrated word.
At the end of the day, you still manipulate the same primitives, and being knowledgeable in the nitty gritty of iam will have no bearing on your ability to design, develop and deliver a software solution

[undone willow]

Developer and ouch. I was hoping for more value.

What do they cost?

It’s so hard to get a an opportunity without a degree. I feel like I’m playing some game on the hardest difficulty.

[smoky quest]

The cost depends on which cert. Higher levels are more expensive. It's typical for employers to sponsor employees for these certs too.

And yes, not having a degree is like doing life in extreme hardcore mode

[buoyant seal]

Recently i saw frontend resume which knows kubernetes. It looked kind of ridiculous

[delicate bane]

haha stel, there are so many its not even funny. the basic one is the one that is worth the least tbh.

[gritty rivet]

This is a popular exercise for self-taught and early career developers. He recommends you to start with the lowest level AWS cert (Practitioner) which I just did a week ago myself (it's $100).

Then there is an outline of a simple project where you build out a resume site that meets certain requirements. It's not a step by step tutorial, so you have to figure out a lot for yourself.

It's designed for a person with no prior experience to do in as little as 40 hours, but it's not easy. I'm already a working developer but it's challenging enough that I am thinking it would be a worthy project for myself.

https://cloudresumechallenge.dev/

[near ocean]

Why ridiculous?

[gritty rivet]

The AWS certs basically come in three levels... After Practitioner are the Associate levels and then the Professionals. I think the Professional exams are hands-on instead of just simple multiple choice. There are also some highly specialized ones outside those three tiers. I think the Professional ones are $300 maybe, the Associate somewhere in-between

[buoyant seal]

because... frontend and cloud infrastructure aren't good synergizing themselves.
cloud infra is very intersected with backend development, at different depth mostly same knowledge is expected.

Kubernetes is first made for backend infra, it is impact for frontend is way less.

[gritty rivet]

My employer was very happy that I got certified, and of course they will be reimbursing me. I do agree though it's more valued for DevOps then. Pure development roles

You're in the wrong place, see #❓｜how-to-get-help

[buoyant seal]

like.. frontend developers can be often not knowing linux
backend and devops people are expected to know linux
frontend developer can be not knowing backend different databases
both backend and devops are expected them to know at different angles
both backend and devops are expected to be able writing some necessary deployment scripts and knowing how event driven programming fits into using stuff lika serverless infra
both backend and devops are usually expected configuring other basic cloud infra like web servers, and it is totally not expected from frontend
So encountering frontend dev with knowing kubernetes, is like... seeing lawyer with culinary skills, surely great, but odd and not very mixing.

Different between backend and devops people, usually only in first approaching same objects mainly from development angle, and second are expected to consider stuff from development and maintanance angle.

[summer roost]

If I were the graphics guy for that book series, I'd have picked clouds that look less like 💩

[near ocean]

Calling things ridiculous might not be the best idea, whats wrong with a frontend guy knowing about k8s really
Just sounds elitist

[buoyant seal]

wrong with it that it is not ever expected in job requirements at the market, if u need more straightforward reason

[gritty rivet]

He needs a typesetter too, the book is very obviously self-published and looks like a Word doc or something. But it's still well written IMO 😂

[near ocean]

It got you talking about it, i'd say it did its job lol

Calling uncommon patterns ridiculous might stop people from trying them out in case they get "ridiculed", not really the nicest thing

[summer roost]

It seems like a way to signal that they have some backend knowledge, and might be able to pick up some backend tasks.

[buoyant seal]

it is uncommon pattern and poorly researched job market. that's what it is.
People are expected to transition first to closest to them positions in order to get more of a job market for them.

It would make more sense firstly learning backend, if u are frontend, before going into devops stuff
learning backend, frontend opens himself full stack job positions

[summer roost]

or maybe they're still pretty junior and open to lots of possible roles. I listed WxWidgets on my resume for a while, because it was a skill that I had picked up on my own that's moderately interesting, even though I've never had a frontend role.

or maybe they just picked up a skill on their own because it sounded interesting to them, and are advertising to employers that they're capable of picking up things that might seem out of their wheelhouse.

[buoyant seal]

Perhaps. the problem is... kubernetes standalone is meaning nothing. U need to surround it with different ecosystem of stuff around of it in order for it to make sense

[near ocean]

You could say that about a million things

[delicate bane]

another possible yet likely option is they are lying on their resume so...

[buoyant seal]

and here u are voicing the good reason why it is red flag.
is frontend devleoper claims he knows nothing of backend and devops, but knows kubernetes.
Then there is high chance he knows nothing of their frontend too 🙂

[summer roost]

sure, perhaps. But perhaps they picked up a small skill in isolation, and learned a bit about it, and thought it was interesting to point out.

[delicate bane]

that is also a possibility. but def worth asking about in an interview (if it gets to that step)

[buoyant seal]

mm yeah, lets say only interview to evaluate further will give more precision. otherwise it is pointless guessing.

[near ocean]

So many assumptions when you could have just said "this frontend guy says they know k8s, how curious"

[buoyant seal]

;b i was not the one who started holy war.

[near ocean]

I work on UI and currently learning rust which has absolutely nothing to do with my job
Should I list it on my cv or will it also get called ridiculous

fyi this is the thought that made me ask you why you called it ridiculous

[buoyant seal]

technically it is related through the chain
Rust -> Web Assembly -> Frontend -> UI

[near ocean]

Theres no jobs for rust wasm

I dont even wanna do webdev with it

[buoyant seal]

true. Still useful skill to know UI if u are full stack dev in some startup/very short staffed dev team. Somehow related to developing graphical interface application

[mortal wedge]

Also, knowing some things about what your coworkers will be using has value. It allows you to provide something to code reviews.

I’m not a cloud engineer but my stuff is going on the cloud so it’s useful to know the basics

It lets me make my coworkers jobs a little easier

[undone willow]

Seems very interseting. Have you heard of anytong impressing employers with this?

[peak halo]

!warn 866746861912981564 This server is not for ads. If you continue to only post rule-breaking content, you will be removed.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied warning to @icy nova.

[gilded valley]

a frontend engineer knowing k8s doesn't really even seem that noteworthy to me - maybe they used to be fullstack, maybe they aspire to move towards backend/fullstack, maybe they run a homelab with k8s, maybe their last job made frontend devs pickup k8s so they could have a common language to talk with the SREs/whoever, maybe their last team was thrown in at the deepend and he was the one to figure out how to deploy their nodejs app on k8s

[vapid jay]

Thoughts on Business Analysts or career roadmap to evolve from an analyst?

[mortal wedge]

Seems like you’d be doing a lot of data science? Python is great for that with libraries like pandas

[mortal wedge]

But yeah, on the previous topic, I don't think I've ever come across a resume where an added skill was a red flag

Even trying to think of it now, unless it was something like "cannibalism" I wouldn't bat an eye

[remote cargo]

does anyone know any automation based jobs for python

[near ocean]

This isnt a job board

[gritty rivet]

At your level I would say look for books. There are loads of good books on Python (with and without data science focus) and also on general software design principles, SDLC, etc. I can't make any specific recommendations but there are lots of recommendation lists and reviews available.

But at the same time, I recommend to keep your learning project focused as much as possible or it's easy to get lost. Think about what you want to build as much as what you need to learn from building it

Just for example, this list includes an intermediate to advanced section: https://realpython.com/best-python-books/#best-intermediate-and-advanced-python-books

[delicate bane]

i think a good framework to approach learning the rest of python in your situation is the following: 1) the pydata stack (pandas, numpy, etc) and 2) how to deploy models (rest apis, devops for DS, etc.).

at least thats what i think since im at a somewhat smaller place as well (but still old so worst of both worlds? jk)

[buoyant seal]

nice. now i discovered that if to enable CSS param overflow: visible to body for enabling scrollbar, and deleting all adds objects above, i can see sights like that without their forced actions

Expert Python Programming 4th edition is a very powerful book
https://static.packt-cdn.com/products/9781801071109/cover/smaller

And Clean Code in Python

both books are full of advanced stuff

[ruby zinc]

thanks everyone

[vapid jay]

Hi everyone, i'm 18Yo and i wanna know if is it worth it to learn C++ after Python. My goal is to be a video games programmer
I heard that C++ is very hard for a beginner, so i want to know if it will be easier after learning Python

[rustic ivy]

you wanna do games on Unreal Engine?

or smthng else?

[peak halo]

I'm not a game developer, but there aren't very many in this server, so I'll try to answer anyway: game development is usually done with engines like Unity and Unreal. And it looks like Unity is written with C# (which doesn't really have anything to do with C or C++), and that Unreal is written with C++.

According to godlygeek (who is a professional C++ developer, but not for games), C++ is the most complex widely-used programming language, but I imagine that the API for the Unreal engine manages some of that complexity.

[vapid jay]

Mainly Unreal Engine and Unity

[white relic]

C++ is pretty complex and difficult as programming languages go. It is a bit easier to learn any programming language if you already know one, so yes it is easier to learn C++ after Python, but I don't think that means you should put off learning C++ until after you have learned Python.

IOW, if you want to learn C++ for its own sake, learn C++. Don't learn Python first because somebody said it would be easier.

But Python is also a great language and extremely useful, so maybe you would find it useful to learn both. If you're planning to learn both anyway, Python first and then C++ is the way I would suggest doing it.

Although Unity uses C# right so maybe C# first if you're interested in that?
(also not a game programmer)

[vapid jay]

ty for the advice

[rustic ivy]

i think you can do stuff on python to get the idea of coding...
idk

[hasty pasture]

What would you guys major in Computer Science , Computer Engineering ( also takes electrical courses ) or electrical engineer.?

I’m having a hard time deciding because I’m coming from the view of I’m going be in debt to get this degree and I want a degree that will get me a job in either or the other

[white relic]

That's almost certainly true, but IMO not worth the trouble.
The problem with saying "learn X first because it makes learning Y easier" is twofold:

1. It ignores the inherent complexity in learning two things instead of one. If you wouldn't learn X anyway, learning X + Y is harder than just learning Y.
2. If Y is what you're really interested in, you'll be more motivated to learn Y than X.

[hasty pasture]

What would you guys choose

[white relic]

I majored in Computer Engineering. But I think if I were to do it again today I'd pick EE.

[hasty pasture]

Great that’s what I’m leaning towards into as I’m watching these developers on YouTube teaching how to code but when I go to their bio on the About section on YouTube they said there “ pursing degree in electrical engineering..”

Can you elaborate why please just so I can understand your view

[white relic]

I went to a minor university and the class schedules were very similar between CE and EE, but when people ask me these days I usually say electronic or electrical engineering because when I say computer engineering people don't know what that means, or think it's like computer science

[summer roost]

This assumes that the person will successfully learn Y without having first learned X.

[white relic]

If you already know where you'll be going to university, take a look at their course schedules and see what interests you more. There's a lot of variation between schools.

[summer roost]

anecdotally, I know more than a few people who tried learning C++ as their first language, and gave up on programming altogether. Some of them came back to it years later, others never did. C++ is a terrible first language.

[hasty pasture]

But can you get a programmer job if your an electrical engineer major .?

[white relic]

I'm not very fond of it myself. But if someone says "I want to learn C++" I don't want to shoot them down out the gate either.

[peak halo]

I know several people with electrical engineering degrees who ended up as developers. Not sure what they did to bridge the gap, though.

[summer roost]

I really think you should - I think it's much better advice to steer them towards learning the basics on a language where they're less likely to stall.

[white relic]

Certainly. But it wouldn't necessarily be a job at a FAANG company doing cloud services or whatever.

[summer roost]

why are you curious what we'd pick? It's a bit like asking if other people prefer strawberry, chocolate, or vanilla ice cream.

[hasty pasture]

Which one would use choose.? I’m thinking that I’m going to be in a lot of debt to get this degree so I want to get something that will work both ways . Cuz I know a CS major won’t be able to land an EE role

[mortal wedge]

yes, especially if you go for a job where there's overlap with hardware. I often see EE being asked for in terms of embedded jobs or basically anything that interacts with hardware too

[hasty pasture]

Some people here have graduated and they have knowledge that would help me because they been at both side of the spectrum .

[summer roost]

I graduated with a Computer Science degree. How is that information useful to you?

[white relic]

Every EE I know writes code at least a little. Python, SKILL, Tcl, bash, C

[peak halo]

if you know you want to be a developer, and a CS degree is one of the degrees you're considering, why are you even considering the other ones?

[cosmic jacinth]

honestly if you want to learn C++, start with C - way less syntax, it's a subset of C++ so most of what you learn will be useful there too, and you get to truly appreciate how useful having syntactic sugar for classes is

[mortal wedge]

I understand that it's a bit like rolling the dice, but I really don't see developer jobs going anywhere anytime soon

[hasty pasture]

What if I don’t like developing anymore .. cs won’t help me with anything then

[white relic]

I'm taking this into account, thanks

[hasty pasture]

Plus most of the people that teach python on YouTube are not even CS majors there EE majors

[mortal wedge]

I don't believe this, but let's say it's the case. You'll be less competitive and informed for pure development roles than the competition with CS degrees.

[hasty pasture]

and most of them don’t even have degrees bro but they can code . Check it

And they land in big tech companies

[mortal wedge]

I'm not doubting that they're there, my problem is with the "most" part of it.

That's survivorship bias. Assuming that rare circumstances are the norm, when they aren't.

[hasty pasture]

oh ok let’s just say a good hand full

[buoyant seal]

if u want C++, then learn C++ first.
Each language has its own legacy of syntax stuff, idioms, ecosystem of libraries.
Easier to learn already needed one.

Relearning after Python to closer to hardware languages will be quite difficult.
They are too much different

[cosmic jacinth]

suppose you end up failing to do that, would you end up making a youtube channel based on that?

[summer roost]

serious question: do you know C++?

[hasty pasture]

no

[cosmic jacinth]

exactly my point

[white relic]

youtube really gives people an unrealistic view of the job market for developers

[peak halo]

how do you know? This sounds anecdotal.

And yes, people who get developer positions with neither a degree nor prior experience are very rare. Social media overstates how likely you are to be successful attempting that.

[buoyant seal]

i would say i don't know it at all. I used it for several years during university, but never really became fan of it.
I enjoyed trading it off for C#.

[summer roost]

but at least you have used it, and know how it approaches classes and polymorphism and generics and such. OK.

[buoyant seal]

yeah

[hasty pasture]

I got a friend of my who is a computer engineer major and straight out of college he now works as an electrical engineer. I’m sure if he taught him self how to code he can get a developer job also

[white relic]

that depends on what you mean by "developer job"

[peak halo]

he probably could. but if he didn't have a computer engineering degree, and he hadn't worked as an electrical engineer, then he probably couldn't.

[hasty pasture]

Coding job

[summer roost]

I think the advice above to learn C before trying C++ is quite sane. C++ is probably the most complex language in modern use. C is probably the most simple language in modern use, and is a (nearly) proper subset of C++, so (almost) everything you learn while learning C can be applied to C++, and learning C is much easier than learning C++, since there's so much less of it.

@hasty pasture What are you most interested in? Are you more interested in hardware/electronics, or software?

[buoyant seal]

i am against learning Python first for learning C/C++ goal.
Lets admit that Python is kind of addictive and a lot of stuff is easier in it. After python going to another (closer to hardware) language will be more difficult if u too much dived into python

[hasty pasture]

I’m interested in both

[white relic]

I do a lot of coding in my job. But I'm a researcher, not a "developer". I couldn't have gotten this job on a CS degree. My daily responsibilities are still largely SWE related.

[summer roost]

Then go with CE. It's the major that exposes you to both in relatively equal parts, and makes it easiest to get a job that deals with both.

[hasty pasture]

bet

[summer roost]

The fact that a lot of stuff is easier in it is exactly why it's a good first language. Learning about imperative flow control and what functions are and how to abstract programs into classes is much easier when you're not dealing with segfaults and compilation, and you have that fast edit/compile/test cycle. Hell, just having a REPL is a huge help when learning.

it's really easy to forget that a lot of the people who start with a close-to-the-metal language just decide programming isn't for them and give up entirely when things don't click quickly. Someone's first exposure to the field really ought to be one where they're less likely to get frustrated and quit.

[summer roost]

Note that all of these majors have enough overlap that you can do a year or two of one of them, decide that it's not for you, and transfer to another one with little to no impact on your graduation date.

or at least, that's the case in the US (where I'm from)

[buoyant seal]

fair points.
it is just feeling like... you know... getting hang of first language with learning all necessary stuff takes years before u can take quickly on multiple other languages in much shorter time.
u a kind of essentially stuck during first years of career to mostly one language

if sparing time to other languages, i feel like i will be just not in time to follow them up, being in their communities, discovering their every detail and philosophy in order to wield them trully efficiently?

I am using python already for several years, and after that i can honestly say i forgot all other languages.... or never knew them in the first place, in comparison to amount of learned python.

[summer roost]

u a kind of essentially stuck during first years of career to mostly one language
We're talking about someone who hasn't started to learn at all yet. They're nowhere near attempting a career yet - they're at least 4 years or so away.

and by the time someone is ready to apply for jobs, yes, I'd expect that they have learned several languages.

[buoyant seal]

yeah. I understand though that with language like golang learning curve is super smaller...
...but if we speak about C++... i hear it has very long and complicated legacy of syntax/inbuilt libraries alone. So kind of... u know... C++ alone can consume a person for long time
it will take a constant practice to be just not forgetting it xD

fair point though, that's decision better to make at the end of university
but still... you know desires matter whom u want to be. I wished being web dev since teenhood ;b He wishes for game industry... which is technically possible in web dev too, buth that's another story
Although decision for game development can be immature one, and during university it can be rethought

[hasty pasture]

I’m too , I’m in Texas

[summer roost]

I'm a professional C++ developer, probably about half of the code that I write for work is C++, and I still don't consider myself to know C++ very well. It's a massive language, and it's not at all rare for me to read someone else's code and see something I've never seen before or don't fully understand.

One of the best known authors of C++ books, Scott Meyers, quit a few years back, and later said:

As you may know, I retired from active involvement in C++ at the end of 2015, and in the ensuing two and a half years, I’ve forgotten enough details of the language that I am no longer able to properly evaluate bug reports regarding the technical aspects of my books. C++ is a large, intricate language with features that interact in complex and subtle ways, and I no longer trust myself to keep all the relevant facts in mind. As a result, all I can do is thank you for your bug report, because I no longer plan to update my books to incorporate technical corrections. Lacking the ability to fairly evaluate whether a bug report is valid, I think this is the only responsible course of action.

it's hard to find a more damning condemnation of a language than that one of the best known and prolific authors and coaches, said that after 2.5 years, he could no longer be trusted to remember the technical details of the language.

I think that's a situation that's fairly unique to C++. I really don't think there's any other heavily used language where one of the most preeminent and prolific authors would seriously admit to forgetting enough that they can't easily relearn it in under 3 years.

[buoyant seal]

( 😱 screaming inside of a mind )

[brave matrix]

When they ask for a presentation letter..

[buoyant seal]

i guess i am right, that i need to choose very carefully languages i wish to wield as main ones.
As there is human limit how much it can keep in head while practicing them.

My plate besides python is already kind of additionally loaded with docker/ansible/terraform/kubernetes stuff
So i should be very carefully adding golang as desired, hopefully as young language it will make very small cognitive impact.

I wonder if i will be able to get java on my plate later after that. Kind of wishing this language too for backend complete package.

[summer roost]

leader
over six months
👀

[brave matrix]

Hey didnt you know? everybody is a leader in their industry these days 🤣

[buoyant seal]

And so small to know, just Python, SQL, Git basics and u are ready to go 🐒 🐒 🐒

[brave matrix]

https://tenor.com/view/borat-dance-gif-4589568

[brave matrix]

but tbf I have a decent list of skills on my resume, but didnt want to list them all...

[buoyant seal]

resume is time to show off 🙂 though mentioning word and excel is not needed. 😆

[summer roost]

"show off", sure, but it should stay confined to reality. No one whose professional experience consists of just 6 months of freelancing is writing "top-tier" code. It's really not a good look to drastically overestimate your own skill level in a resume.

[white relic]

The nice thing about Python is that although it's really quite a big language, it composes pretty well. You can miss out on 30% of the most obscure parts and the 70% that is left is still a really good, capable, modern language, and you can look up the bits you're missing
C++ is like... fractally complicated. If you don't learn the 30% most obscure parts of the language, suddenly you find that the other 80% doesn't quite work like you expected

yes that adds up to 110% because C++ is more than one language

[buoyant seal]

thanks gods i avoided this trap. https://media.tenor.com/TsxjeebxeYMAAAAC/whew-relief.gif

[brave matrix]

I actually did learn Excel and Tableu at my bootcamp, but god I cant stand that shit so I dont want any jobs that include that in the description

[white relic]

basically I wouldn't worry about learning too many different things, you'll forget stuff if you don't use it but that only matters if you're expected to pick it up again at the drop of a hat. I'm sure Scott Meyers could get back into the C++ game faster than most people, if he were inclined to.

[cosmic jacinth]

or you just write C++ code that's essentially C 😛

[brave matrix]

Nah bro, my confidence levels are off the charts, I always knew I have a very good Python knowledge for someone that has been programming for just a year.
And then this Friday I had an interview, and the lady said I had some of the best programming shes ever seen (for an entry level position)

[cosmic jacinth]

that's got to be the best pirate i've ever seen

so it would seem

[buoyant seal]

we learned Excel during university, together with microsoft access. I am actually quite fan of them... as u know.. u can literally anything program in Excel if u a pervert enough (including doom game)
Though honestly i fell in love with Sqlitebrowser today xD https://sqlitebrowser.org/
Very comfortable GUI way to handle relational table data with power of SQL xD ans saving lightweightly as regular files along side the rest of your stuff, plus easily augmented with pytnon scripts which has sqlite3 engine as inbuilt library today

[summer roost]

There's a famous saying about C++:

When you’re programming C++ no one can ever agree on which ten percent of the language is safe to use.

[delicate bane]

[summer roost]

sure, but no one applying for entry level positions is writing "top-tier" code.

[delicate bane]

that was absolutely wild to read

[summer roost]

you may be very good for your years of experience, but "top-tier" means that you're comparing yourself to the people who wrote the interpreter. The top tier is likely far higher than you think it is.

[buoyant seal]

or wrote awesome books like Python Expert Programming 4th edition. I want one day to reach that level too.

[delicate bane]

yeah i feel this is important to keep in mind. you almost have to be "strategic" about what you choose to learn as you develop your career, right?

[brave matrix]

db-browser is solid, but now I use:
https://shner-elmo-streamlit-sqlite-viewer-main-8a6xhp.streamlit.app/

[brave matrix]

Of course, I'm comparing to people that are applying to entry level positions, and I'll never take a job posting seriously if they ask for a presentation letter

[buoyant seal]

yeah. that's why i was actually so ridiculing some time before frontend developer who learned kubernetes.
The time is short, and we need to be indeed strategic in what we learn. We need the most... needed skills which synergize correctly with each other. To achieve faster greater rank role in profession.

[summer roost]

maybe this is a more constructive way to frame that feedback: you should prefer to "show" rather than to "tell". Anyone can say they're the world's foremost expert in some technology, but very few people are. The few people who are should be able to demonstrate that with other concrete, verifiable facts that they list on their resume, like publications or conference talks. Don't say that you're a "leader" at freelancing, instead talk about the number of projects completed and clients satisfied. If applicable, talk about the number of return clients, who came back to you for another project.

[crisp jewel]

Hello, does anyone know how long it should be taking for me to do easy, medium, and hard leet code problems? (for interviews)

[delicate bane]

almost as important is the inverse: "what are you going to not choose to learn"

[buoyant seal]

the thing is... with stuff we learn... we are literally on equal terms to making build of character in some MMORPG game like Diablo 2 or World of Warcraft.
Some skills are the best to learn in entry level of career, some stuff is the most needed for middle / senior levels
Yet obviously some skills from middle/senior rank are giving huge boost to even junior level, but not each one.
And some specializations and skills are better matching each other in terms of how they are helping/related, and how they are in demand in the market.

So choosing what to learn next... is thing pretty much as careful to choose as which skills to up first in MMORPG game, and as in game you have limits in amount of skill points. Your time is limit, how much theory you can learn in period of time, and how much u can be lucky to train it at work / or how much time u can spend training it in pet projects

[summer roost]

Easy in maybe 5 to 10 minutes, medium in maybe 10 to 20. I wouldn't expect hard to get asked at all, but if they do I'd guess they've budgeted maybe 30 to 40 minutes for them.

[delicate bane]

yes and no. the analogy is good in that there are different skills and specializations like you mentioned that can complement and synergize. however, sometimes you "switch classes" or switch fields completely after finding out you like these parts of the new job more, etc. so thats something else to keep in mind

[summer roost]

I'd say you should aim to be able to complete an easy and two medium in under 50 minutes.

[crisp jewel]

is it just me or is medium leet code a little too easy for 10 to 20 minutes, do you have to explain every step and choose the absolute most optimal solution?

[buoyant seal]

well, that's literally game reset/build new character from scratch. New Game xD Except fully New Game is not possible, because we can't be young again

[delicate bane]

also i guess another thing to consider - there is more overlap "between classes" in roles in tech so the lines are much blurrier

[crisp jewel]

i have never had a coding interview before so i'm really unsure but been doing some leet code problems lately to prepare for one and can do medium and easy quite quickly still trying to improve on how quickly I can solve hard problems

[summer roost]

if you find it easy, you're probably in good shape. Interviewers aren't looking to stump interviewees - they're just looking to see you write enough code to see how you approach problems, whether you recognize common patterns and can quickly whip out the common solution, and see what your code looks like when you write it.

[buoyant seal]

that's why i said about synergizing. Each skill gives % of power boost to other skills or even whole specializations. Blizzard games have that stuff pretty much

[delicate bane]

[crisp jewel]

ok thank you

[summer roost]

notably, no in-person interview should ever involve 10 minutes of silence while you think about how to solve some problem. Something has gone very wrong if you find yourself in that situation.

[crisp jewel]

ok thx i'll practice while voicing my process

should i practice on any hard lvl questions on leet code as a student? or just stick to medium and easy

[delicate bane]

do they have multiclass in some games, since i see some roles in tech more like that - example SRE

[summer roost]

sure, that too, but that's not really what I meant. I meant that the interviewers have asked a bad question if it's one that requires too much thinking time. It means a bunch of dead time where they could be interacting with you and learning about you, but aren't.

[crisp jewel]

ow ok thank you for all your help

[summer roost]

I think leetcode hards don't make good interview questions because of how long it may take to come up with a solution. I'd hope that if they're giving you problems that hard, they start nudging you towards the right answer and giving hints if you haven't figured it out quickly.

[crisp jewel]

alright that helps me a lot thx for all the help have a great day

[buoyant seal]

Blizzard games traditionally have specializations at least, like sorceress in Diablo 2 can learn Frost, Lighting and Fire magics.
Consider real person being one character with opened possible specialziations from all characters.

The thing is... you can't really reset your character though... because nobody will give you your skill points back. Time is a limit to gain new skill points / and to upkeep learned skills from degradation

[delicate bane]

and in tech, sometimes "new skills" aka "new tech" comes out and you have to decide if its worth learning for your career or if it will just fade away after a few years. if you make the wrong gamble...goodbye skill points

[buoyant seal]

exactly. That's why i was glad when i discovered i should not invest any of my skill points in Docker Swarm. I was glad i discovered with most surety that Kubernetes is a top learder dominating market for huge percent in container orchestration systems and has very promising future to dominate even more and for long time

That's why i learned Terraform first for infra provisioning first, and hesitating to choose any alternative infra provisioning tools at the moment. They look very young and not yet promising to remain in the future

That's why i learn first skills the most sure to remain stable and needed, like Code Architecture, System Design stuff, and other stable needed to be known theoretical stuff.

Carefully nagivating between what market requires (or required just from common professional sense) and trying to choose the most reusable skills to learn and to upkeep for the next job. Then i will be matching for major percentage for desired job vanacies while having skills the most unlikely to fade away too much quickly as deprecated.

That's why i will never ever touch anything Apple related ;b

[delicate bane]

honestly this is a good approach i believe. it keeps you marketable and you will run into less trouble if you need to find a new job quickly for some reason

or if you just feel like your current job is unsatisfactory in one aspect or more (pay, work culture, etc.)

[buoyant seal]

yup, all is needed to consider also synergizing too in choosing next skills in addition. Which are skills u needing the most to gain next rank role / better job role / or transitioning slowly to some nearby role

[delicate bane]

yeah that stuff also depends on which path you want to aim for in the future. something i am also thinking about myself

[buoyant seal]

all of it kind of... enough to build already map with multiple markers/parameters to consider.. that a normal 2 dimensional map will not fit

[buoyant seal]

Exactly. Each passed year will open you to better market salaries, as long as u keep following this path and dedicating a good amount of time per each week to self studies, while incorporating their results into every day work life when possible

Regretfully some variables are almost out of control though. U can train yourself as much as u can in your free time
But it mainly partially depends on what job u currently have to train you for major amount of time per week. When u have relevant job duties as every day work duties, it helps to gain way faster skills.
It requires amount of luck to choose next jobs carefully, which are the best for your specializations growth

[delicate bane]

yeah sometimes its a lot to keep up with. now i know why some people transition out...better to find a middle ground (at least for me) so that it can be sustainable over a long period

(or become very picky about which skills to pick up/have hyper-targeted goal)

[buoyant seal]

Well, ideally i see it like.... i would invest 80% of me in stable/long term stuff sustainable over a long period. And for good 20% of at least i can go for more rapid changing/risky investments. Ideally it will be all that is needed to gain complete Senior package of needed to be known stuff at desired job roles according to profession and market requirements

[delicate bane]

interesting

[near ocean]

Its okay to learn things that are outside of your career progression.

Life isnt about getting to the next step as quickly and efficiently as possible, learn what makes you happy

[delicate bane]

this is also important

my friend whos a SWE in his day job is working on a game project in his free time

[buoyant seal]

This is literally directly most important thing to do for SWE career ;b

Owning software development cycles fully in pet projects targeted for user usages

One out of two best things to do besides reading books / and in other ways learning

[gilded valley]

I'm not remotely convinced by this - I'd like to hear the take of someone who's been in the industry for longer though

[buoyant seal]

that will be very hard to evaluate sources u can trust in this regard though.
I am pretty sure many people can have fine life time career without it

[hasty pasture]

All jobs are asking for these type of requirements tho

[buoyant seal]

anyway.. u know... when u see those top tier people like Jeffrey Geerling
https://www.jeffgeerling.com/tags/books
https://github.com/geerlingguy/ansible-role-docker
He has multiple written books about Ansible, multiple maintained pet projects of ansible roles to install stuff...
...this thing makes people like him to stand out and to make an impact on all developers.

This thing alone makes people like him... trully top tier and famous for the stuff they upkeep and made in free time.

Like Nginx was born in a free time as open source project of a russian developer for many years
Like other pretty sure a lot of examples.
All those authors often had stuff to stand out like that.

Passion to have not only at regular work time, but for your profession in a free time.

somehow as consequence or as reason, that leads to them becoming... productive to programming communities

There is something to it
It is undeniable truth that practice is the best thing to learn.
And as person greedy to learn in the most efficient way needed skills, i can say that pet projects sometimes are the only place i can apply at practice skills i need to learn for greater job role or transitioning to nearby job role.
It is not always possible to apply everything u learn at work regretfully. And not always makes sense due to Software Architect/System Design reasons

[brave matrix]

data/business analyst; yes.
but I'm looking for a data engineer position

[hasty pasture]

What’s your degree in .?

[brave matrix]

nada

just turned 20 and dont intend to go to uni

[hasty pasture]

How you gunna get the data engineer job then

[brave matrix]

you gotta be good with Python and SQL, all the rest is a bonus, at least imo

[summer roost]

Why not?

[hasty pasture]

So you can solve any python problem .?

[brave matrix]

yeah

gimme something

[ebon sun]

Might help to start in an analyst position, this way you can learn a business.

[spark cobalt]

And how is it going?

[brave matrix]

At the beginning I was getting no answers for a while but all of a sudden I got like 5 interviews line up in a span of 10 days.
but I realized my SQL isnt as good as I thought, so gotta practice that more

[spark cobalt]

What's your mathematical background?

[brave matrix]

basically non-existent, why you ask?

[summer roost]

I'd very strongly recommend getting a degree. Don't play life on hard mode unless you absolutely have to.

[cosmic jacinth]

nah go get a radian instead, that's 57.296 degrees in one

[summer geyser]

Do you continue working with your recruiter(that works for the company) after starting a job? Or do they just get you hired and that’s it lol

[spark cobalt]

How did the interviews go?

[smoky quest]

pretty much, unless your paths cross again (ex:hiring for a role you are both related)

[brave matrix]

I had two last week; the first I was super nervous and I had like 3 guys that were just speaking endlessly about the company, and they invited me to come to the office this week.
the interesting thing is that theyre looking for a DE for the whole team (6 devs and 4 data analyst/scientists) so if they were to hire me I would be THE data engineer, which is a bit weird since I have no prior experience in the field, but anyways it would be a great oppurtunity for growth.

then for the other inteview they asked me to do a couple exercises, (half Python and half SQL), I got wrong like half of the SQL exercises, but when it came to Python the team manager which was handling the technical part said that my Python was some of the best shes seen, so that was pretty cool

the funny part was that in the second interview I told the team manager that if the job was mostly SQL I wouldnt be interested since Im not very good at it and I dont enjoy it much, but then she said that its understandable if I dont feel confident in it since Im just a beginner, and then the last 20 mins of the interview was basically them trying to convince me that its ok and I dont need to worry about it 🤣

[hasty pasture]

I sent it to you let see if u can solve it

[spark cobalt]

Did you have prior experience in a related field? Sounds like you are easily able to make options based on this decision.

Career wise, if you're already solid on Python, then being able to learn solid SQL on the job is good.

At least if you plan to keep being a data engineer

Unsure why you would say that since it can possibly turn down an opportunity unless you have a shit ton of options

[vapid jay]

How do you guys feel about Systems Analyst?

[brave matrix]

because she mentioned that some projects are like 80% SQL, and I really enjoy Python not the former, but yeah I need to practice more SQL since it is pretty important as a Data Engineer

[spark cobalt]

Where in the world are you located?

You sound like you're having an easy time getting a job self taught.

[brave matrix]

Milan, Italy

I wouldnt say easy, I've applied to over 200 jobs so far and got plenty of calls where the said my skills matched perfectly but the education was lacking...

a lot of jobs here require a degree here, especially DA and DS jobs, DE a bit less.

[spark cobalt]

Ah okay makes more sense.

[brave matrix]

hard work pays off..

[buoyant seal]

This sounds to me like not an entry profession. The person is expected to be having Software Developer education and job experience first.

[vapid jay]

not really, business/systems analyst positions are entry level

[near ocean]

What does systems analyst mean to you

Titles are meaningless, a brief description of duties is always much better

[vapid jay]

A systems analyst is a person who uses analysis and design techniques to solve business problems using information technology.

[buoyant seal]

https://www.computerscience.org/careers/systems-analyst/ System Analyst to me... is basically Software Architect. A person with intensive experience in Backend and DevOps stuff, knowing all technologies enough to advice what type of cloud objects and infrastructure solutions / code architecture patterns are best to use for which situation
Knowing when it is time to choose SaaS, when it is time to choose Open Source tech, when to choose PostgreSQL, and when it is time for Apache Cassandra. When it is time for Celery/RabbitMQ, and when time for SQS or Apache Kafka.
Basically person knowing at least everything from this of a System Design stuff: https://github.com/donnemartin/system-design-primer + Expert in regular SDLC stuff in addition.
P.S. at least in terms of web development and cloud solutions.

[near ocean]

tbf i still dont know what this entails
Arent we all solving business problems using information technology?

[buoyant seal]

how can person make analysis and design IT solution to business problem, without knowing IT technologies (without Software Engineering experience /: )

[vapid jay]

ngl found that on google

I am doing MIS / Business Technology Management program at my school, If i get tech related internships & do certs will it allow me to get a tech related role in the future? Or would i have to switch into Computer Science

[buoyant seal]

well, then your claim that System Analyst is entry position is not really having any backing up. Unless u find something really to back up your words

[prime stag]

are there any ways to do temporary independent contracting jobs in python for companies? i'm not entirely sure if independent contracting is the best option though, so if there's a better option, please let me know. here's my situation:

• i'm a college student, busy most of the year but i have a lot of free time during breaks like thanksgiving, winter, spring, etc (so short-term gigs are preferable)
• i have a decent amount of chronic health issues, so sometimes i take an 10-25% longer to do projects than i originally expect (though if absolutely necessary i could probably work all-nighters to meet a deadline)
• i have no other source of income 😔

i'm currently building a resume, and my main attractions in the field of computer science are that in the maintainer of a 1.1k-star github repo, and i'm a comp sci major, so there isn't that much unfortunately

[buoyant seal]

check for internships stuff available to you. Also with such irregular timeschedule, freelancing can be a good option despite being quite challenging environment.
I just worked as computer help / desk support during my university times. My university had opened position for this job vanacy. It was quite nice to have personal office in university where i studied

[prime stag]

yessss, freelancing was the word i wanted, not independent contracting, sorry

i've been looking for internship stuff, but i don't have any comp sci connections on linkedin and stuff so it's been hard

and i applied to every open job at our uni's IT department but they don't hire freshmen

[buoyant seal]

depending your resume and year of studies, it can be easier to get hired into fast food than finding IT practice

[prime stag]

yeah it's definitely easier to get hired into fast food for me, but i'm not a good people person (autism spectrum) so my parents have suggested i don't even try that (because i'd probably get fired quickly)

stel i moved elsewhere for university btw, sorry

[peak halo]

Unless you're truly desperate for money, working in food service is not worth the time and sanity cost for how much they pay.

[buoyant seal]

ergh, sorry for blunt words, but u have potentially fucked up parents. My parent was like that too.
During university and having help desk support role, it helped me to socialize and to become confident in being mind healthy person.
I just discovered with confidence that my parent was/is actually insane. Literally.
So your social skills can be better than u think 🙂 Or at least they will be... once u go through some minor job / go through more of university

[prime stag]

yeah i figured. i'm not desperate for money, but it'd be nice to build up some savings

[peak halo]

A savings account won't beat inflation. If you have 16 hours a week to set aside for working, you might as well take an extra few credits each semester and finish sooner.

[prime stag]

i don't have 16 hours a week to set aside, i only have significant time during breaks, which is why i'm mainly looking for short-term gigs

[buoyant seal]

nothing really except Freelancing can possibly fit schedule like that. The problem is with freelancing that it is quite scammy/difficult challenging environment, so don't have really big hopes it will work out. I had some positive (as employer) experience with https://freelancer.com

[prime stag]

i appreciate the advice, but i think calling parents "fucked up" is not a particularly constructive way to approach this. most of my friends do agree with my parents in that a customer service job would be a bad idea for my first major job, and i trust the wisdom of the masses of people who know me in this case

[summer roost]

yeah, companies don't bring employees on for 3 weeks. Freelancing is your only chance of anything even resembling that.

[prime stag]

yeah when i said independent contractors that was the wrong term, freelancing is definitely what i want. do you have any recommendations for good ways to go about beginning to freelance?

[prime stag]

thank you for the link!

[buoyant seal]

i hear that some freelancing web sites are just too nasty. At least rumours say that upwork is too bad for employees

[summer roost]

the sort of freelancing you'd be able to do on notice that short is maybe bring up a website for a small pizza shop, or something like that.

[peak halo]

I agree with thanklx--calling her parents "potentially fucked up" was uncalled for. Please keep that in mind.

[prime stag]

(i'd like to make it clear that i don't have any hard feelings about what you said, darkwind. i'm very blunt sometimes too, and i completely understand how a bad experience with your parents could lead to you thinking that my parents might be like that)

[summer roost]

it is fair to note that even people on the spectrum need to develop some amount of social skills, and the only way to get that is dealing with people. Granted fast food is a very high stress way to get that exposure, though.

but even people on the spectrum need to eventually pick up "reading the room" type skills, and figuring out when to say something, when to keep their mouth shut, when the person they're talking to wants honest feedback, when they don't, etc. The sooner you can build those skills, the better - and even better if it's in a job where you don't have much in the way of long term consequences for getting it wrong and upsetting people.

[prime stag]

yeah, i definitely want to build social skills, i just think fast food is a big leap from where i'm at now and i'd rather start with something that doesn't require advanced social skills right out of the gate

[buoyant seal]

yeah, sorry. U just mentioned exactly same words my parent was telling me for most of my teenhood. Autism. Considering how it all turned out in the end, where she made all wrong choices in her life and has literal insanity now. Urgh... I have read psychological book one which perfectly described the mental abuse she did.. your word just kind of triggered to this assumption with too much precisely choosing same statement my parent was telling me

[prime stag]

ah, i apologize for triggering your bad experiences with my choice of words. if you'd like to discuss any parental experiences, we can DM about that because we might share some similarities <3
(i'm offering to DM because i don't want to clutter career discussion with parental stuff)

[prime stag]

do you have recommendations for where i could find that sort of small work? darkwind mentioned freelancer.com, and said upwork seems to be toxic for employees, are there any other decent sites you know of?

[buoyant seal]

technically not a problem now just to google freelancer.com alterantives, iu'll get all the list of them

Upwork.
Fiverr.
Skyword360.
PeoplePerHour.com.
Guru.com.
Supersourcing.
Bark.com.
Toptal.

the problem is evaluating only where experience will be better. Perhaps through reddit additionally reading

[prime stag]

thanks so much!

[buoyant seal]

Freelancer.com vs upwork reddit google request will yield conversations like https://www.reddit.com/r/Upwork/comments/h7mx6b/upwork_vs_freelancer_kind_of_surprised_by_the/

xD, this thread says opposite, as upwork being better than freelancer.com, but oh well, better to read all comments for perspective about other platforms

[summer roost]

No, I've never done any freelancing.

[prime stag]

got it

[mortal wedge]

Fwiw we lost a fantastic resource due to how upwork works. And there’s quite a few horror stories related to the platform. When I freelanced I mainly looked specifically for job postings asking for contract work.

But I did not freelance for too long before realizing I craved job stability and needed full time employ

[summer roost]

what was the typical length of those contracts?

[mortal wedge]

Around 1-3 months is what I worked and what I saw posted

[mortal wedge]

If you need to pay the bills you need to pay the bills. But keep in mind that if you work a non career job and then try to go into a career job, it can be challenging. I took some time to work technical support and then getting a developer job from that was quite challenging.

And if that is challenging, you can imagine how much more it would be if you had a fast food job on your resume.

I may be missing some context though, so this is just general advice related to whether or not someone should seek a career job or just any job when they're unemployed.

[summer roost]

And if that is challenging, you can imagine how much more it would be if you had a fast food job on your resume.
Having a fast food job on your resume is less helpful than a relevant industry job, but it's better than no job.

I would never judge someone negatively for having a fast food job listed on their resume, and you definitely shouldn't either.

[dim pelican]

Does my question about career have to be tech/python related?

[smoky quest]

the further away from the topics of this server and channel and expertise of the folks here, the less likely you would be able to get a meaningful answer

[dim pelican]

It’s pretty general, I’m just not in tech (yet lol)

[smoky quest]

You haven't shared your question. So I can't neither give you an absolute answer about its relevancy nor answer it.
In general, it's simpler to just ask your question directly as you could have gotten an answer already by now

[dim pelican]

Sorry kinda mentally fried (been a long day at work lol). I’m looking at getting a promotion. I have an idea raise percentage and additional benefits in mind. If the offer is below than how I do I go about asking for more? I mean i already asked for the promotion.

[white relic]

This happened to me recently. Part of the reason I haven't been offered more is because I'm undereducated, so I'm asking the company to pay for me to go back for a master's.

If there's a generally applicable lesson in there, maybe it's "identify why they are lowballing you and ask them to help you fix it"

[dim pelican]

Fortunately this isn’t degree or cert based. I moved to day shift which a lot more responsibilities fell on me along with that. Not to mention my work ethics has pulled a lot of eye towards me to have all the answers. But I can’t find anything online about the new title. I can find salaries and benefits for my current level and the level above what I will be promoted to (becoming a lead instead of manager because of our shifts). It’s like this position is a fall back option lol.

[smoky quest]

There are multiple factors at play:

• Knowing your true value. And sometimes, what you want is not necessarily what you are worth. People have a tendency to overvalue themselves
• Being able to justify the raise
• Your plan if they deny your raise
• Your career goal and the plan you worked on with your manager. That assume expectations are set for the next stages and you are aware of what you need to demonstrate it

[dim pelican]

So far I’ve been leading multiple projects as well as become the de facto guy for problem solving within my departament (not my original set of work requirements). In addition, I’ve become the liaison for communication between my customer and my overheads. In charge of ordering material, been given a company card and have to contact other companies for large purchase (like upwards of 6k transactions on a 50k company card). I don’t feel like 10 percent raise and an extra “week” of vacation is too much to ask for especially since I’m moving up to a lead position only because I can’t become manager (customer won’t allow for a fifth person in the budget).

Don’t really have a plan. I just bought a house so I’ll have to accept whatever I’m given lol. But I feel after 8 years it’s time I start standing up for myself ya know?

End goal is to get out of debt and start my career over in tech. Manufacturing has been nice but I would like more control over my life and the option to freelance. For my current industry I feel lead/manager would be high enough to not take a significant pay decrease once I make the switch. So if I ever do become manager I’m starting a 3 year timer to gtfo.

[smoky quest]

Standing up for yourself implies you are being abused.
We are in the context of a job, a business transaction. There shouldn't be any abuse involved.

If you are changing role and there is an established band for that role (you mentioned earlier), then how do you fit in that band? How does the raise you are asking fits in it?

[vapid jay]

Hi, I have an interview upcoming for a Junior Data Engineer Position, how can I prepare myself so I get accepted?

[smoky quest]

Make sure your resume is up to date, then prepare for technical interviews (ex: leetcode, sql related questions, etc.) and get some good sleep

[vapid jay]

It's a virtual interview through teams. And I really need to nail this one.

I am really passionate about the field and have a tiny amount of experience in it. So, I am trying my best to prepare for the interview as much as possible.

[dim pelican]

In my first job, where I spent most of my time, I road entry pay. Like after being there for 4 years, there were people there only 6 months making more than I did. I was also forced into another department and lied about the change. Was told I was working there for the week to cover someone and never got moved back to my position. It was a horrible experience.

Yes as I will become the fall guy essentially. Currently the responsibility is shared between the four of us equally. Once I get the new position, everything will be funneled through me. So I’d say the Night Shift guy is messing up I would have to answer for it, why I haven’t created something to prevent it and how I plan to get us together to address the issue moving forward etc for example. In addition to the other stuff as originally my job was to just prep materials not ordering and procurement etc etc etc.

[smoky quest]

That's the problem, you shouldn't have to nail that one. Sometimes interviews can fail for a host of reason, as silly as the interviewer not liking you.
So don't bet on a single interview and expect to go through multiple ones. And if it's your first interview, you will likely be doing some mistakes and that's ok. That's part of getting some experience

[vapid jay]

I have done quite a few interviews before, but this is the first one that I have found so far for a job that I am passionate about, and I would love to work for that company.

[dim pelican]

Had one tech interview. Got a rude awaking when I couldn’t solve the technical question due to not knowing XML or json files. Really humbled me and I’m forever grateful for the experience.

[smoky quest]

I mean, if they have a band for your new role, how does your raise fit into that?

[dim pelican]

It’s more so the amount than the raise. I’ve only switched jobs in the past for a substantial raise. So going for a regular tech to a lead tech and not being able to find any information about the position online is my hang up. Like a co worker told me he knows people making 80k in that position but it’s in places with higher cost if livings so I can’t figure out a proper scale.

[smoky quest]

doing some research on the company could give an edge into what they are looking for and demonstrate you did your homework

[vapid jay]

Done that already

[smoky quest]

Some people recommend to always interview. That helps keep your skills sharp and to know your market value.
Interviewing somewhere else is one way to get your market value

[final rivet]

kinda dumb question, but do employers care what your name is on like stack overflow and github? mine is TrooperZ on most coding stuff i have

[dim pelican]

Unfortunately not possible. I’m in a non-compete so I would automatically be interviewing for a lower value as I’m part of one of the top 5 companies. Anywhere I could interview without breaking my agreement would be for a customer who for some reason have lower market rates. I would guess it’s because as part of the supplier companies you’re expected to know more technical information about the project rather than just being able to make blues the right Pantone color.

[smoky quest]

Just to be clear on the meaning of non-compete: you are saying you are forbidden from working in the same line of work within X miles of your location and for Y months?

[dim pelican]

I want to say as long as it isn’t outrageous they don’t.

[dim pelican]

1 year. Didn’t know there was a location based non-compete. First one I’ve ever had to sign.

[smoky quest]

yeah that's fucked up

You could still look at interviewing in a different state where non-competes are unenforceable or a slightly related line of work. Because regardless, that's your only alternative if they refuse your raise.

[dim pelican]

I’ve been told that. They do let it up under special circumstances. Our customer switched to 12s and I was given permission to break it since I was hired for 8s and moved from Kentucky specially for that reason. The other company told me my current employer is the only company of the major 5 that require non-competes.

[final rivet]

so would you suggest that I make a github with my real name or smth along those lines or just keep it as it is (im not trying to find a job soon, im a junior in hs and mostly trying to polish my portfolio for colleges/internships/future jobs)

[ivory heron]

I have an associates in computer sciences with emphasis in software design. From 2010. At the time I went for a bachelors degree but the college shut down before I finished. I’m currently refreshing up on languages to bring my degree back into relevance. I’m going after Python and C. Any suggestions to help break into the app development scene or even data sciences

[dim pelican]

I’ve been using my first initial, my middle initial, my last name and my year of high school graduation. I’m also not very creative and imaginative lol.

[summer roost]

Doesn't have to be your real name, just a name you wouldn't be embarrassed by telling your employer

For instance, "TequilaJosh" might be a bit awkward to explain to your boss 😄

[final rivet]

gotcha

[summer roost]

Mine is "godlygeek", and I've found it only mildly embarrassing to share with employers, heh

[final rivet]

hey, at least it shows personality and creativity rather than a standard first.last

[true harness]

i changed mine from "SavagePastaMan" to just my name. i don't think it really matters unless, like godly said, it's 😬

[delicate bane]

mine had to be changed since it was semi-unprofesh

[smoky quest]

You also have to take into account how it would be perceived and how it impacts your personal brand. It can get quite tricky

[spark cobalt]

It can end up sounding kiddy and childish especially if you're just getting out of college and are one of the younger people in the industry.

[delicate bane]

i was in neither of these categories when i first made mine...so i have no excuses

[spark cobalt]

I used my gamer tag and lmao getting asked about it was just way too cringe so I had to change

[upbeat imp]

I'm a junior/mid-level-ish dev who got laid off about a month ago and I'm really, really struggling to find work. If I were a senior developer, I could have my pick of positions, but I'm not - and it just looks so awful and like it's going to get so much worse, and I'm scared. I'm not really sure where I'm going with this aside from to reach out and look for hope, I guess? I'm just so tired

[warm vault]

Alguien sabe como quitar eso es que me molesta

[elfin marsh]

is python-data structures and algorithims-oop a better path than python-oop-data structures and algorithims < to study

better as in not too steep of a learning curve

[upbeat imp]

I don't think it'll matter much, honestly, dave. OOP isn't really going to prepare you much for algorithms/data structures, and algorithms/data structures aren't going to prepare you much for OOP

algorithm classes are generally difficult, though

[elfin marsh]

i thought data structures and algorithims can help you to solve python questions easier (not too sure)

[upbeat imp]

oh, it'll totally make you a better programmer

but it won't necessarily make you understand object-oriented programming better - it just doesn't have much to do with those concepts

[elfin marsh]

oh i see its a different thing all together ?

[upbeat imp]

yeah

the algorithm course will make you much stronger, but it will likely be difficult. the OOP course will be relatively familiar territory once you get to know a bit about classes in Python - it's not anything particularly new or scary

[elfin marsh]

ahh

[upbeat imp]

(edited class-as-in-the-thing-you-attend to "course" for clarity)

[elfin marsh]

but interview questions are mainly data structures and algo i'm guessing ?

[upbeat imp]

depends a lot where you're interviewing, but they can be yeah

[elfin marsh]

thanks .

[upbeat imp]

mhm! algorithm design will basically help you learn how to make good/better decisions about how to implement things in your programs and understand why some ways of writing your program make faster programs than others

(to simplify it a bit)

[spark cobalt]

What were the reasons for the layoff? (Kinda separate from the question, because I'm personally still confused on the whole layoff business)

[vapid jay]

I am doing MIS / Business Technology Management program at my school, If i get tech related internships & do certs will it allow me to get a tech related role in the future? Or would i have to switch into Computer Science

[white relic]

to my understanding, IS is a normal way to get into IT and database jobs, which are very much tech related

there's a decent amount of overlap in terms of what jobs you would be able to get, but if you're really into the programming side of things and not so much into the business side, you might want to switch.

[elfin marsh]

operations would be certificates

but programming is comp science for sure

my qn i have is designing the structure of the code would be in data structures and algorithms ?

[white relic]

that sounds a little more like software architecture

[elfin marsh]

evven before u write it into ide or just write on paper first ?

also anyone took part in competitive programming

[white relic]

especially then

waiting to start designing something until after you've already started writing it is the same as not designing it

[pulsar sentinel]

lil tip for anyone in school

prioritise maths and english

i was 3 marks off passing my maths gcse and now no one will take me (not even most college courses) bc i can’t say i have my maths even though i have years worth of coding experience

[delicate bane]

saw this today and cant help thinking that its true. thoughts anybody?

[spark cobalt]

I mean doesn't all of those points apply no matter if it's data scientists or not.

Big to small company and also tech to non-tech companies.

[delicate bane]

nah. data/tech-first companies have entire data platform teams dedicated to support data scientists and data analysts. some even build in-house tooling which end up being wrappers around common open-source projects out there.

this isnt even talking about the armies of data engineers that big tech can throw at their data problems

[spark cobalt]

Ah ic

[delicate bane]

we also havent talked about the other side of the equation. for example ML engineers and MLOps engineers and how these models make it to production

[spark cobalt]

Also a question about the layoff business. Is the motivation for layoffs something along the lines of workers who are not performant within the company? Wouldn't that make people who have been laid off harder to employ, since they're waving a red flag in the face of a hiring manager?

[delicate bane]

these types refer to point #3 that he makes that def would be rare at many places.

[buoyant seal]

As far as i heard, encountering company mature for data science is super rare in the first place
in most cases it is expected for data scientists to be data engineering in addition and baking their stuff on their own
it would be sad though to work with it without devops engineers too though, but that can be fixed relatively from small team too

[delicate bane]

the motivation for layoffs this time is due to overall market forces - many outside the control of the individual themselves. ive posted this before but take a look at this for more info https://www.linkedin.com/posts/gergelyorosz_layoffs-tech-startups-activity-6994008437294563328-7Dkj?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_android

[delicate bane]

bro tell me about it. i already know no one else will deploy my own models for me

maybe i will move towards ML engineer career path at this rate

[buoyant seal]

giggles. What is the result from it, don't invest yourself into machine learning/data science as they are kicked first along with non tech people?
kind of sad though, data scientists are expected to be cool specialists.

[spark cobalt]

Data is cool anyways

[delicate bane]

vin says it is more nuanced than you would think in his newsletter. innovation teams are cut but data scientists close to more core product/business are needed even more

so it truly depends on which team you are on

[buoyant seal]

Job role: entire IT department when 😆

[spark cobalt]

Yeah my issue with these arguments is not all companies are having economic issues to have a need to lay people off. Also for the LinkedIn community, I've yet to see a single post referring to performance reasons being the cause of layoffs. Everything is about trying to advertise to get the ones that were laid off another job. Advertising them, sharing their sympathy, etc.

[delicate bane]

oh yeah that one went pretty viral

[spark cobalt]

Doesn't seem like the LinkedIn community would like this kind of talk, and well, the recruiter influencers not talking it.

Cuz some companies did state they were doing it because of performance reasons. So I don't really see the economic argument for some companies.

It's more like some bigger companies just hopped the bandwagon of smaller companies laying off cuz of economic reasons to get rid of less performant people.

[delicate bane]

companies are lowkey expecting a recession recession to be incoming so its more them expecting their numbers to go down than them actually being down right at this very second

all the business and finance folks are talking about it atm.

thats why certain stocks are down, VC funding is what it is, etc. etc.

ok i have to actually go back to work. bye

[spark cobalt]

Issue is even if it's economically motivated, companies should theoretically be only getting rid of the less efficient workers.

So indirectly, it should be a cut based on performance.

If a recession recession (I love this terminology , so ironic) were to happen. Companies would clearly want to minimize input for maximum output. And that would just be laying off inefficient workers.

[olive hound]

More of a what the workers are doing in the company, while performance is obviously going to be considered, if there's some new team that's for something they're expanding outside of the company's core business and can't be migrated to it while the economy's gone to shit then there's not much reason to keep them there even if they're performing well

[spark cobalt]

Yeah the performance threshold being different for different companies make sense.

But there being a bias that laid off workers are less efficient workers still remain.

@subtle granite Bootcamps are basically paying to get connections. The contents of the bootcamp seem to be all web dev which if you aren't able to learn on your own, then sure take a bootcamp. But if you're already in college, you might be able to get connections through college even though you're not in CS (I'm unsure how the college connection stuff works), and not have to worry about going to a bootcamp.

[subtle granite]

Thanks for the info. Yea I’m self leaning rn and college will be in my rear view mirror soon. So I won’t be having that side to get connections through. But I have people around me who have connections. I’ve always heard negatives and positives of these camps so I’m unsure but just wanted to hear someone out.

I might take a meeting w a recruiter and I already have the course curriculum emailed to me so I can see more about it before I make any decisions

[marsh stone]

How much python should you know before trying to get a job coding?

[true harness]

it's not really a specific "quantity". you just need to be better than the other applicants by having more of the requirements

[spark cobalt]

@marsh stone Read this ^

Really just what you can do with your Python and general programming knowledge rather than a specific checklist you need to have.

[summer roost]

if you're a teenager, you should focus on getting into a Computer Science or Software Engineering degree program. That will make it much easier to land a stable, good paying software development job.

[marsh stone]

Okay, I was just unsure. I recently got my python associate and I'm currently working on my aws cloud practitioner and I don't really know if I should try putting out a resume

[spark cobalt]

Wdym by Python Associate?

[marsh stone]

yeah I'm looking at other things besides python I think thats a great message. I just don't know when to go look for job

certified associate in python certificate

[marsh stone]

certification on the python institutes website

[spark cobalt]

Thats just some 3rd party certification. I took it as well and it's not that great.

[marsh stone]

rest in piece

[spark cobalt]

Doesn't come close to weighing as much as a degree.

[marsh stone]

well ofc

[spark cobalt]

It's better to certify your Python knowledge with a project if you refuse to do a CS degree. But really CS degree is safest and easiest path for high chance of success.

[marsh stone]

yeah that seems to be the best route, for me personally I think I'm going to have to go to college

the only thing is I'm worried about taking on a bunch of debt

[summer roost]

if college is an option, it is almost certainly your best option. The debt can be a problem if you drop out or change to a major that tends to pay less well, but as long as you complete a CS degree with a decent GPA, I would expect that you could pay all the debt back within 5 years or so.

what country are you in?

[marsh stone]

USA

[summer roost]

cool, me too. So yeah, everything I said is correct. Look for a state school, in particular - state schools with in-state tuition shouldn't require taking on too much debt.

[marsh stone]

I was looking to go to community for two and then maybe transfer to finish bachelors

would that work?

[spark cobalt]

Shouldn't focus on the money since CS graduates easily pay it all back. If you're able to do 4 year to cultivate 2 extra years of connections etc. that would be more ideal.

When money is out of the equation, 4 year >

[summer roost]

that can work, but you need to figure out what credits will and won't transfer in advance. That can result in you needing to re-take classes if the uni you transfer into won't accept certain classes from the community college.

there is some advantage to going to the same school for all 4 years, though - being part of the incoming freshman class with a bunch of people who have the same major as you can really help you with building up your first professional network, which has long term benefits - getting tipped off to job offers that are up your alley when one of your college friends' companies is hiring, asking your friends what they're getting paid to try to figure out your own market worth, etc...

[marsh stone]

with that route I would just go for a compsci degree then? how secure is that for finding a job?

I mean would it still be hard to find a job coding if I have a bachelors degree and know how to code?

[summer roost]

I graduated quite a while ago, so my info is out of date, but I haven't heard new grads here complaining that they're having much trouble finding jobs. They seem to be having far, far less trouble than self-taught folks who are trying to break into the work force

[true harness]

it's not easy, but definitely easier

[summer roost]

Several self-taught people here have said that they struggled to even get interviews after 200 job applications. New grads haven't been complaining about anything like that.

[marsh stone]

about how competitive would you say coding is? I hear some people saying that coding is in extremely high demand and that there aren't enough coders but at the same time that its very competitive. Do people mean that the like higher end coding jobs are competitive or is that just the field in general?

sorry for so many questions lol I just wanna know what I get into if I take on 4 years of debt lol

[summer roost]

Hm. There's a lot of competition for jobs at big-name companies like Google and Meta, because they get so many applications for every job opening. And there's a fair bit of competition for entry-level jobs, since all new grads have roughly the same skills and it can be hard to distinguish yourself over other candidates. But I wouldn't say that the field is very competitive after your first few years, except for those very big name companies. There's definitely more demand than supply for senior engineers, and that's been the case for many years now.

there's stronger demand for senior engineers than junior, for sure. But someone still needs to hire those junior engineers, because that's how we get new senior engineers.

[marsh stone]

you would be a junior engineer after college right? then a few years working to be a senior

[summer roost]

yes

I'd roughly say that the "senior" level is the point at which you're trusted to run a project - work with stakeholders to refine the exact requirements, and work to deliver those requirements over a few weeks to months.

at the junior level, projects get spoonfed to you instead - someone breaks off a bite-sized piece of their project, and asks you to implement that feature.

[marsh stone]

so after 4 years of school you're a junior engineer and have a bit of a dog fight for your first jobs before you're a senior engineer and have a lot more freedom and experience to get higher end jobs

but college helps with that also because of the connections

[summer roost]

yes, I'd agree with all of that.

And I haven't really heard of fresh grads sitting unemployed for a long time - but I have heard some say that they're settling for lower paying jobs than they think they deserve, with the goal to jump ship in a few years when they have some professional experience.

[marsh stone]

with all that being said it sounds like I should just go to college and this message makes that clear. It sounds like its too hard to get in without a degree

[summer roost]

if it's at all an option, I'd strongly recommend college, yes. The debt is really no problem at all as long as you get the degree and a job.

[marsh stone]

Ugh dude college ew, thanks for talking to me @summer roost . I'm going to think on it a bit more and prob apply for this spring. How hard is it?

[summer roost]

even low paying software dev jobs pay enough that it shouldn't be difficult to pay off student loans.

[cosmic jacinth]

or maybe even consider studying abroad in a country where uni doesnt cost 2 arms, a leg and half your liver

[mortal wedge]

Yeah. College is the way to go. I wish someone could be self taught and have no issue, but that isn’t really the way it works in industry. I know it takes time and money not everyone is willing and able to spend and it’s a little heartbreaking to give the advice, but the best route really is through college

[summer roost]

how hard is college? Harder than high school - you go more in depth on topics, and you have a lot more freedom to fuck up - professors won't care if you never show up to a lecture. But if you were a good student in high school, I'd expect you to find it basically fine.

[marsh stone]

how hard is the major? I've been to college for a while but I dropped out, probably the main reason I don't want to go back

[mortal wedge]

Depends on why you dropped out tbh

[marsh stone]

I mean I graduated highschool with a 4.0 but I got eaten alive majoring physics and found out it wasn't for me. maybe CS would be different bc I think I have a inclination for it

Also obviously the context is different I have to pass really there isn't much space for mistakes now

[cosmic jacinth]

from what i've heard CS does go pretty heavily into more theoretical maths, while CE is a bit more lax on it but you have to do physics

[marsh stone]

I mean at this point though I guess it doesn't really matter. If I want a job programming I have to beat whatever garbage class is put in front of me

the odds don't sound right for not having a degree

[cosmic jacinth]

https://tenor.com/view/thanos-reality-is-often-disappointing-stone-infinity-stone-gamora-gif-14046382

[marsh stone]

facts

[cosmic jacinth]

shit, i was unironically considering 5 years of slogging through highschool again just to be able to start a bachelors - tho now i've found a way i might be able to get there in just 3 instead

[summer roost]

I don't think there's any sort of objective answer to how hard a CS BS would be. That depends on the person and their aptitudes.

[marsh stone]

I mean its a risk but what else am I going to do realistically? and it sounds worth it any the end

[marsh stone]

yeah I don't even think my question mattered to be honest either way I would have to pass it to get to a career in cs

[cosmic jacinth]

which do you hate less if i can ask - maths or physics

[buoyant seal]

Math was my favourite subject.... in a school xD
During university it challenged me to decrease my enthusiasm considerably though

as i sucked in physics, so i remained to suck in physics.

[marsh stone]

Um, I actually like them lol long story. I think the classes at the college I was going to really didn't work well for me but probably physics I really enjoyed calculus taught to me in a different way @cosmic jacinth

[summer roost]

same. It took me quite a while to wrap my head around asymptotic complexity analysis.

[cosmic jacinth]

dont remind me kekw - i used to basically get top grade in maths (really, almost everywhere( at school, then i got into 7th grade and my grades went down the toilet

also it's a bloody atrocity you spend 6-7 years of "maths" class only learning arithmetics

[summer roost]

one reasonably common story is someone who made it through high school without ever needing to work very hard because they found the material all easy, and then making it to college and hitting a wall because they never learned how to study, or even how to apply themselves to problems that didn't come naturally to them.

if someone had a 4.0 in high school and then college went poorly, that's the story I expect to hear about it.

[cosmic jacinth]

who are you and where did you get my biography from

[marsh stone]

not just that but when things are difficult you don't have the skills to push past it even if you are smart

[clear loom]

i was ok at math, my frustration started with sql algebra 💀

[true harness]

what's sql algebra lol. set theory?

[summer roost]

yep. You just never learned those skills in the grade school environment, where there's more freedom to fail.

[summer roost]

relational algebra, I believe

[vapid jay]

could programming be a real job (a full time job)

[summer roost]

No, there are no full time programmers in the world. (/s, hopefully obviously)

[marsh stone]

since then I've worked real jobs and gotten more perspective but I'm way older lmfao

[vapid jay]

that is sad to hear

[marsh stone]

like I'm going in as a freshman but I would be old smh massive L

[cosmic jacinth]

lol, there's folks that went and got their degrees in their 40s

[summer roost]

it sounds like you're well aware of why it didn't go well the first time, though, and what would need to be different in order for it to work out for you.

[marsh stone]

true I don't want a repeat that would be game over

[summer roost]

so, some of what I said about making friends probably doesn't apply as much to you - you're unlikely to make a bunch of 18 year old friends if you're in your late 20s. That does make the community college for 2 years path more appealing. But you do need to do careful research to ensure that all the community college credits will transfer into whatever CS program you go on to join.

you should be able to figure that out in advance by asking a bunch of questions to the uni, but it will require research.

[vapid jay]

what's the best institute to learn computer science in the whole world

[cosmic jacinth]

south harmon institute of technology seems like a really nice place

[buoyant seal]

that was sarcasm. world is full of programmers working full time. (Captain obvious comes to a rescue)

[vapid jay]

alrighty then

[vapid jay]

yeah i know it was lol! (thanks though)

[cosmic jacinth]

that was a joke from a movie lel - i'd say realistically it's the one that actually accepts you (try forming an acronym out of it)

[summer roost]

I heard google has one

[vapid jay]

no i dont want to get enrolled im just looking for the best.
whether it be any, even if it enrolls or doesnt

[summer roost]

what country are you in?

[vapid jay]

i said im looking for the whole world,
india, i know in india its iit

[true harness]

the US has a few: mit, Berkeley, Stanford, cmu, gatech

[vapid jay]

yeah whats the best one of 'em

[summer roost]

I don't think it really makes sense to attempt to compare across countries.

[true harness]

asking for the "best" university isn't really well defined

[cosmic jacinth]

the one you get accepted to - because chances are, you wont

[vapid jay]

well that's true

[vapid jay]

the one with the most programming investions is the best institute for me

[clear loom]

you need to shortlist unis that you're interested in, make 3 pools(ambitious, mid, safe) and apply to them

[vapid jay]

MAN I DONT WANNA GO IN I JUST NEED THE NAME I SAID THAT 10 TIMES
I JUST NEED THE NAME OF THE BEST UNI IN THE WORLD

[pliant radish]

Jee ki teyari Karo
Chup raho

[true harness]

it's still pretty much impossible to compare across countries, even within countries it's difficult

[clear loom]

you won't get anything from a name, you need to look into them first

[near ocean]

This is offtopic and a google search away

[pliant radish]

[vapid jay]

me after taking commerce:

[vapid jay]

my bad

[pliant radish]

Bca

Prepare for nimcet ,jnu,bits mca later on

[cosmic jacinth]

@summer roost btw re our discussion last saturday: i think i did manage to find a way where i can attend a special (public) school to get that silly piece of paper allowing me to get into uni in 3 years

there's also a self-study option via an exam (that you take regardless which path you choose) but i don't think i have the self-discipline to do it consistently, plus it'd also be a lot of other subjects besides maths where i'm actually half-decent at, like yknow, literature, history, biology, geography, etc.

and after that i can essentially enter immediately so that's a W imo

[vapid jay]

tsinghua

[summer roost]

Great! I'm glad there was some sort of shorter path for you.

[cosmic jacinth]

i'd be finishing my bachelors by 27 and (potentially) my masters by 30 on that route, not too bad in the slightest i don't think

[lost reef]

What python / backend technology stack do you recommend?

[buoyant seal]

it depends on your requirements and python skill level 🙂 and just depends on what u need to acomplish in the first place.

[summer roost]

is that a career question?

[dreamy spade]

Software dev jobs are survival of the fittest for these jobs man
Application process
Stage 1 Interview with recruiter
Candidate Quiz
Stage 2 Interview with hiring manager

It's overwhelming. I have no questions I just wanted to vent.

[summer roost]

aren't all jobs "survival of the fittest"? The goal of the hiring process is to ensure that any candidate who "survives" the process to get hired is sufficiently "fit"

[buoyant seal]

Technically none of them are really important except Technical interview, or at least tech task solving stages.
usually it is just relaxing speaking with non-tech people

Yeah... soft skills are checked in non technical parts... but you know... still not very important part.

[dreamy spade]

Yes but from my estimation, there's less steps. For instance, warehouse jobs.

[summer roost]

arguably that's because more candidates are fit for warehouse jobs, so the process needs less work to weed out unfit candidates.

I've been the interviewer for someone who applied for a coding job and who had very clearly never written a line of code in their life, despite what their resume said. Incredibly un-fun, and a waste of time for everyone involved, but for whatever reason, people who lack even the most rudimentary skills really do apply to software dev jobs.

[uncut moth]

you can also take law enforcement jobs as an example that have many more steps than software dev jobs

[delicate bane]

thats wild. do you think theres a good way to filter people

[true harness]

automated screen that asks an easy leetcode (or equivalent). takes like 15 minutes for qualified people

[summer roost]

I mean, they did get filtered, at a point where it was relatively cheap - it was a 30 minute phone call that I cut off early.

[delicate bane]

im assuming godly's place already has that in place

gotcha gotcha.

[summer roost]

it's not as though they got the job 😄

[delicate bane]

still wasted your time though, which is valuable technically

[summer roost]

sure, but they wasted less time than if they'd gotten a full in-house interview.

[delicate bane]

also true

[summer roost]

but when people ask why there are so many steps, that sort of thing is a big part of it. Some of those steps are there just to filter out people who lied on their resume, or things like that.

enough people do it that it's worth the extra steps to remove them early.

that stage - the 30 minute phone screen - was a pass/fail thing where we aimed to pass anyone who could even plausibly do the job. It was literally a "is it worth interviewing this person" filter

[summer roost]

I'd expect that these are relatively easy to game. Get someone else to do the work and copy-paste, or something. Phone calls cost more, since they take up more employee time, but they're harder to game.

[true harness]

that's probably true, but why not just both then. idt it's that hard to set up since I've seen many companies do it. if it only works like half the time it's still probably a good idea I think

[summer roost]

why not just both then
That's an option, but it does lead to fatigue over the number of stages.

I kind of expect that the marginal cost savings wouldn't be worth it - but I dunno.

[true harness]

yeah, probably only the kind of thing you could verify with A/B testing on your applicants 😔.

there is sort of a middle ground where you give more qualitative questions that are reviewed async by a human. I've only gotten that twice

[cosmic jacinth]

absurd proposal #9001: leetcode problem, but it's randomised and they have 10 minutes to complete it

[true harness]

probably too many false negatives with that one lol

[summer roost]

it's not as though it's a majority of candidates whose credentials are obvious lies, or anything like that. Just a large enough minority that it's worth the effort to filter them out quickly.

[dim pelican]

@smoky quest just wanted to give you an update since you offered help yesterday. I was worried for nothing. Seems like the manager position is interchangeable with the lead and the estimates online we’re corrected. They offered about 14 percent so I asked to cut it back to 13 and give me an extra 40 hours of vacation.

[summer roost]

nice!

[smoky quest]

congrats!

[dim pelican]

Thank you.

[cerulean spade]

Guys i want to know the things that a good developer need have for be diferrent, anyone help me?

[copper ember]

gm guys!!! anyone here got a job without having studied in university? ty

[spark cobalt]

Yes.

[smoky quest]

Some people do. But it's a very difficult path with a high chance of failure.
The path of least resistance and with the most opportunity remains on going to university/college for a CS degree

[summer river]

Hi can you guys suggest free courses for cybersecurity.

[copper ember]

get it yeah .. and for older people .. on 30's ? I saw some videos of people on his 30's, and start to programing and got a job ... thoughts ?

[smoky quest]

Past 30, it gets more tricky as while a degree would still remain valuable, you ain't getting any younger.
That's why some would go through bootcamps or self taught and try to leverage their past experience. But the career path between a degree and a bootcamp/self-taught would still not be equivalent

[smoky quest]

Hi and welcome! This channel is about #career-advice . You should check out #❓｜how-to-get-help or #cybersecurity

[copper ember]

thanks mate!! much aprecciate your opinion!!! what about going to university past 30? loool

[smoky quest]

There is no problem with that.
The main issue is that a lot of folks past 30s have more difficulty going back to school after making some money or may have some family or other duties limiting their time (there are some evening classes though)

[copper ember]

yeah ... I get it

[smoky quest]

But I don't mean to discourage you. You can certainly enter the tech field without having to work at google or another faang

However I do want to set some realistic expectations that it's high tech (and thus may take some work) and can be competitive

[copper ember]

yeah for sure!!! of course man, and I really apreciate your honesty!!! thansk a lot man

[copper ember]

@smoky quest are you there mate? hit me when u there. ty

[woeful spruce]

I got a degree, but not in CS. I also got my first dev job at 30. I think it is crazy to even hint that 30 is old. You won't retire for probably another 30 years. Why would an employer be concerned about that?

[smoky quest]

Just ask your question. Someone will reply when they see it 😉

[copper ember]

im searching now about bootcamps ... you guys think this really work?

never heard about that before you @smoky quest talked about ... I searched and seems really nice... thougths?

[copper ember]

great man!!! really happy for you, and this kind of examples really motivate me

[smoky quest]

It's not regulated nor standarized. So some maybe great and others total scam.
The benefit is that they can provide the structure for those who need it and can help with contacts in the industry. The downside is you can't compress a 3-5 years degree in a 3-6months. So it's hyper focused on a specific area (generally webdev) and may move too fast for some.
So do you own research about which ones interest you.

[copper ember]

cool

yeah im making some research.. I found this " Le wagon " boot camp .. do you know? seems really interesting

[smoky quest]

Sorry, I have no experience with them. Maybe someone here does

[spark cobalt]

Reddit typically has people who comment on their experience in certain bootcamps. You can probably check there.

[copper ember]

I dont use reddit to much... but I will try ...

well... it seems to me to be a window of oportunity for what I see... if its a good bootcamp, and you are motivated.. could be a nice shot

[gritty rivet]

The best place to find graduates of a specific bootcamp is LinkedIn. But I've definitely seen that one mentioned on r/codingbootcamps (Reddit)

I personally did the Backend program through Nucamp which is a) cheaper then most bootcamps and b) one of the few that focuses on Python/SQL/DevOps

[ivory sluice]

i would love to negotiate more vacation time. do you know if your company does anniversary milestones for PTO tiers and are you now past the "cap" milestone?

[lone heron]

hello, can i ask questions related to resume here?

yes thank you. So I am going to apply for an internship in the field of web development. But i dont have any prior work experience in any company. What can i add instead of that?

[copper ember]

thanks man!! will check that reddit

[copper ember]

where u from btw?

[summer zealot]

HELLO EVERYONE !

[spark cobalt]

Hi

[summer zealot]

i am a high school student looking forward to be a data sceintist

[spark cobalt]

Nice!

[summer zealot]

and u ?

[spark cobalt]

I work in cloud networks

[summer zealot]

oh so u might be a network engineer if i am not wrong

[spark cobalt]

Yep.

[summer zealot]

nice one man

[spark cobalt]

Just kinda. My entire team deals with networks everyday, but we're not exactly a network engineer. Another team deals with that end.

[summer zealot]

oh ok. so do u guys frequently use python

[spark cobalt]

Uhh for automation and testing yes. Everything else, not really.

[summer zealot]

where r u from btw

[spark cobalt]

I'm located in San Jose, CA, USA rn.

[summer zealot]

i am from punjab india

[spark cobalt]

Nice

[summer zealot]

pretty it hyped place u know

nearly half of my classmates r computer nerds

[spark cobalt]

[summer zealot]

although i always am a step ahead of them in hackathons 😏 😏