career-advice

[near remnant]

bro u think its fine to do nothing? i hate it..i always ask for more work but there are cases when there are no more work FOR NOW

im a junior and i've been working on my own since week 1

but anyways..man cant even ask a question here without instantly getting fucked by negativity

[true harness]

are you just ranting? there isn't anything we can give advice on really. if there's truly no more work, then you can't really do anything. but i would try and actually verify there's no more work. maybe update/write docs, help your coworkers, etc. with a big codebase there's probably always something to do

[near remnant]

this server is just sad

[gilded valley]

@near remnant if you've finished all your Jira tickets, the best thing to do is just ask your manager/scrum-master or someone for some more

[near remnant]

i asked for more work, tasks, stuff to do. they told me to read or just wait for work...thats what I did and bro called me a slacker

[true harness]

your original message didn't say that you were told to do nothing, that's why. it seemed you hadn't told anyone you were done, either

[near remnant]

well, thats my bad, sorry for that

anywasy, i hope u get my point

[analog sun]

!rule 6 @vapid jay

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[near ocean]

Is it rude to end a technical interview early if the candidate is really struggling with basics

[gilded valley]

yes

[true harness]

imo no. it's rude to waste the interviewer's time. then again, i honestly wouldn't know what that's like

[near ocean]

Would you stick it out? How would you handle increasingly difficult puzzles

[balmy mural]

Candidate could consider it rude from their viewpoint, but I think it's justified. Would be wasting both the candidate and interviewer's time if you continue

[near ocean]

When I say basics i mean literally fizzbuzz and JS/python syntax

[clear loom]

depends on the position i suppose? but i don't think its rude at all - as long as it wasn't conveyed in a rude manner

[buoyant seal]

Can't resist to be not posting this. The office has certainly some quality jokes:

[buoyant seal]

rude? i think no i guess. Interview is meant to evaluate candiate. It can take 3 hours instead of said 1 hour. It can take half an hour instead of said 1 hour.
if candidate failed fizz buzz level of questions multiple times in a row, and u are certain that it is not because he was nervous, u gave him all the chances to open up. Then i guess it is the end and no point to go further.

u can remember that rudeness can be present here in both directions. If candidate misinformed heavily about his qualifications and there are no doubts about them being below any threshold, it is rude from the side of candidate to do that.
There are actually even scammers in the world who try to simulate being a developer on purpose, to pass interviews(with online help/people who showed up to interviews instead of them included. That's why very important to verify people's identity and checking that interviewed face is matching face of person who started working xD) and getting at least first months salary until getting fired

[buoyant seal]

I prefer to think, in whatever interview way went, i just want to get honest detailed feedback in order to improve myself where i lack. The only thing rude for me not getting this feedback from interview.

[empty relic]

Hello my cowboy

[near ocean]

I do hope they get some sort of feedback otherwise that'd make me sad about the sort of company i work at, but i dont actually know

[buoyant seal]

I am the terror that flaps in the night! I am a furniture corner, which u stumble with your pinkie toe in the dark!

[buoyant seal]

yeah. companies can be avoiding giving feedbacks because
a) they are lazy and uncaring (lacking soft skills i guess)
b) they are incompetent to give feedback (in terms of hard skills i mean)
c) they don't know how to formulate their reason for rejection in a professional way so that it would not look bad to their reputation (and/or actually having very bad reason to reject in the first place, like racism or sexism)

[amber charm]

Hi there,
i've always been told to make a "portfolio" and that could be a website displaying your skills and projects. My current language is Python, i have not learned any modules apart from Pygame.
What project would you recommend that i can add onto my "porfolio" (website)? or do i need to learn a module?
should i learning Basic HTML and CSS to make a website?

[mortal wedge]

Using frameworks and such for the website is fine, it doesn't have to be built from scratch.

If you're interested in game dev, having a game or two on your own website would go a long way!

[true harness]

you're not going to be making a website with just pygame, that's for sure. maybe flask, fastapi, starlette or Django. also html and css for the frontend

[amber charm]

Was looking into Data Science, but that's going to take me long to learn.
So what can i do in the meantime?

[mortal wedge]

I did not come across a single company that told me why I got rejected.

I think it's to avoid liability.

[mortal wedge]

What do you mean? Do you mean what might you learn/practice in the meantime?

[amber charm]

Yeah, what can i do/learn to show off my skills in the meantime

[true harness]

actually atlassian told me they were only accepting juniors, which is kinda wild. otherwise though, it's always "sorry we will not be moving forward"

[mortal wedge]

Oh wow, that's kind of them. But yeah, that's definitely the exception that breaks the rule.

[mortal wedge]

Hmm. There's quite a lot you can do. You can check out our resources page for places to learn and/or check out our projects page for ideas on what to develop. As someone who has a hand in hiring, I would also look to see if someone has collaborated on a project with other people, as you're likely in a job to be collaborating with other people, lol

[mortal wedge]

Now that I think about it, I did have one recruiter who told me that regardless of reason or duration, the manager considered ANY gap in employment to be a red flag and would refuse to hire them.

[true harness]

that sounds dumb

[amber charm]

Will do, thank you 😄

[mortal wedge]

It is, but it just goes to show that there really isn't a framework everyone follows, everyone has had prior experiences with employees then formed their own prejudices/opinions and it colors their judgement when hiring

[amber charm]

bit of a dumb question, but i cant seem to find the resource page

[mortal wedge]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[mortal wedge]

!projects

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[amber charm]

Much appreciated

[delicate bane]

i heard its also legal reasons sometimes they cant offer feedback

dunno if thats actually true or not or if its just anecdata

[mortal wedge]

Yeah, it's liability related. Companies can get sued by prospective employees so it's safer to just have that rote response. I talked to some managers that have had candidates sue and it's ridiculous.

(U.S market, if it wasn't obvious)

[delicate bane]

that is ridic but doesnt surprise me. no wonder HR sends those cookie cutter template emails

[buoyant seal]

i had a better rate. from 25% to 50% of companies told me feedback so far
I am interviewed for companies from abroad though, to which i apply as a business entity from third world country if that matters

[mortal wedge]

Wow! Lucky 🙂

[outer herald]

can anyone tell how to take input from users as list ?

[spark cobalt]

From the interviewee side, they're probably begging in their mind to escape. So win win imo.

[spark cobalt]

Yeah there is. If they tell you the response is all positive and still doesn't hire you that's grounds for a discrimination lawsuit. For example, for the company I worked at DoE told me I had positive feedback for all my rounds and my dad (lawyer) was like "yeah if they don't let you in even with positive feedback, that's age discrimination" cuz I was 18.

[spark cobalt]

That's such an L considering like the 50 million shitty things that happened in the past like 4 years.

[summer roost]

your dad was wrong, FWIW. It's perfectly legal to refuse to hire someone for being too young in the US, just not for being too old.

age discrimination is only illegal in the US if you're discriminating based on someone being 40 or older.

[balmy mural]

Would it be though? What if they had another candidate with all positive feedback, but they fit into the team better culturally, or are more experienced in specific technologies?

[spark cobalt]

Oh, fair enough. My dad works on patent side so

[spark cobalt]

That's a good point.

I think at least in my case, the interview I had with DoE was kinda treated as I'm already in, just he's like the final check. (Like Congress sending a bill to the President for a veto or something)

Dunno, it was a very odd experience...

[summer roost]

there's also reasons why the company might refuse to hire someone that they wanted to hire. You might get only positive feedback because in between interviewing you and extending an offer to you, the company's CEO enforced a hiring freeze, or something like that.

[delicate bane]

yeah sometimes hiring manager wants to say yes, but HR says no

[spark cobalt]

Good point, never really thought about things like this. Thanks

[spark cobalt]

Ah HR had to go first for me cuz no one knew if they could hire someone that young and if there's labor laws or anything

I guess didn't wanna continue interviews if I was not employable to begin with

[cerulean notch]

кто в сломанный телефон пишем ко мне в профиль

[analog sun]

!rule 4 please

[inner wren]

Rules

4. Use English to the best of your ability. Be polite if someone speaks English imperfectly.

[mortal wedge]

Agreed

[mortal wedge]

Although I dont know if he changed his tune later, but this was in the first year of covid when this happened to me

[willow olive]

My last job title was "IT Support and Software tester", but I worked more with Power BI than IT Support, is it ok to change the job title to something like "Power BI Analyst and Quality Assurance Professional" when sending resumes?

[smoky quest]

It depends how it's done. As long as it checks out (ex: during reference checks) and represents what you actually did, that could be fine

[mortal wedge]

In my opinion it's okay to change your job title to reflect the skills you want to showcase and/or the duties you performed. What you don't want to fudge on a resume under any circumstance is 1) the companies you worked for (don't say you worked at google when you didn't) and 2) the time period you worked there for (this is easily verifiable)

@vapid jay THis channel may be better suited to this discussion of freelance and university degrees 🙂

[near ocean]

I would err on the side of caution and keep it the same as the title you have on your contract but tweak the description for sure

[vapid jay]

i guess u dont understand how work is it

[mortal wedge]

I've worked freelance and a career job, have been to university and have taken many career centered classes as well as done a lot of additional research on my own 🙂

[vapid jay]

all with this and doesn't seem like you're good at your domain. Well, at least i hope you enjoy it.

[mortal wedge]

Thanks, I do! Appreciate your feedback, although I'm not sure how you can evaluate my skills in my domain having not heard what my domain is.

[vapid jay]

we are on a dev server discord, so i don't think we are talking about teaching or something like that. I'm just saying that being developer in our day can make u easly found job i don't see why someone who is able to build application and website why he/she wouldn't be able to do free llance or work for comapny

we are in 2022, some country don't care about diploma for exemple USA; most of worker there in dev aren't with diploma, make your own research you will see that

[lapis wind]

Sorry where are you getting these statistics from exactly?

Last time I checked the US and probably India are some of the worst for getting jobs without degrees

[mortal wedge]

Do you have a source of "most"? When doing research, the most favorable response I found was that 75% of developers have a degree in computer science, which isn't even covering those with a degree in a related field or those with a college degree in some other field

[true harness]

the SO survey says most (like 60%) have only a bachelor's

[mortal wedge]

For example, I have a degree in STEM, but not computer science

[mortal wedge]

and the rest have less than a bachelors or more?

[true harness]

yeah, let me just get the link..

[vapid jay]

computer science has many faculty .. electronic, web dev, etc etc

[lapis wind]

https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2021#developer-profile-education

[true harness]

is that this year? professionals only? I get different numbers

[mortal wedge]

So that shows to me around 14% of less than a college

[mortal wedge]

I am not sure what they're claiming. Maybe share both?

[near ocean]

Seems the best way to get this opinion out of people's heads is to have them try it and fail

[mortal wedge]

I get why they want to believe it, I do. But it's certainly not helpful to propagate.

[lapis wind]

See link, couldn't find the link for 2022

[vapid jay]

so now you are killing my chance of thinking founding a job, right ? 😅

[mortal wedge]

Hmm. I'm interpreting this as 14% of developers do not have a bachelors

[mortal wedge]

I want to set realistic expectations to people I communicate with in this server so they can make the best decision for their future career

[near ocean]

If you're not going to accept surveys of other people who have tried what you're proposing, what kind of advice or conversation are you looking for?

[mortal wedge]

I don't think I've come across a single person in the professional world who would rather hire someone without a degree than someone with one

[lapis wind]

I didn't get a degree but I definitely wouldn't recommend it to most people 😅 I was just very lucky and had connections

[true harness]

https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2022/#education-ed-level-prof
this year's

[vapid jay]

well then if that true

[mortal wedge]

So that's around 10% or less without some sort of college, is how I'm reading that

[true harness]

no idea how to interpret "Something else", but that seems accurate, yeah

[near ocean]

mfw MScs are the next generation BScs

[mortal wedge]

Yeah... 😦

[true harness]

it's important to note it's not a degree in CS, just a degree

[vapid jay]

so for you a newbie with degree and one who is intermiadte-pro level, always the newbie is more advantage because he has degree?

[mortal wedge]

The senior positions I'm looking at all require masters/phds. I only have a bachelors. And yes, for example I have a degree in biomedical engineering which I leveraged into a job at a neuroscience company doing algorithm development.

[white relic]

as a BSc in a field where I am completely out-educated by 99% of my colleagues, I feel that

[mortal wedge]

It's not about me, it's about how the career market works. Before you even reach a hiring manager who could make that determination, you have to cross two barriers. One is the automated applicant system which will filter out less qualified applicants and HR who is looking for a way to filter out less qualified applicants when they don't know too much about the subject material.

If by some miracle you bypassed the first hurdle, the second would definitely rule you out.

[lapis wind]

Generally speaking it's hard to actually demonstrate your knowledge when you first start out

Once you've got a few years of experience sure, a degree way less important but still helpful.

[mortal wedge]

Less important, but I can't compete with my senior colleagues who have masters or phds. At least, I'm always going to be viewed as less than them.

One big thing to note is that people can lie on their resumes and often do for things that are harder to verify. People typically won't lie about their college/work history because those are routinely verified things

But typically on job postings for the level I'm at, I always see down at the bottom "0-3 years of experience for PhD, 3-6 years for masters degree." With the implication that bachelors and below need not apply

[summer roost]

What area are you working in? I'd expect that from ML/AI/NLP, but not from general frontend or backend software dev

[mortal wedge]

Algorithm Development in the life sciences. With a focus in R&D

[summer roost]

ah - hm, so that sounds sort of like computational biology?

[near ocean]

that sounds cool af

[white relic]

Companies in general get more than enough applications to fill their open positions. Companies that people want to work for get many more than enough applications. If you have a dozen resumes on the list and you need to pick at most 2-3 to interview, you have to filter for something that's on the resume

[mortal wedge]

Yes, I do have significant overlap with computational biology. Having a biomedical engineering degree certainly helped, I am viewed as equivalent to having a software engineering degree in this field, maybe even a slight advantage

[mortal wedge]

Thanks 🙂 I certainly enjoy it!

[vapid jay]

i'm interested about working in remote

[mortal wedge]

Haha, most of us are. I love my remote position and a LOT of companies opened up the possibility for remote during the pandemic, but quite a few are walking that back and requiring hybrid or in person 😦

[white relic]

Not the person you asked, but in a similar position and my job is novel electronics research. I'd never have gotten this job without a PhD if I hadn't known someone. And I'm still underpaid because of it

[summer roost]

if you're still just trying to break into the industry, I'd recommend looking for jobs that aren't remote. They likely get fewer applicants, so you'll have less competition, and it's likely that you'd skill up faster in an environment where you're working face to face with other coders, rather than over Slack and Zoom.

[mortal wedge]

Yeah, the pay gap hurts, also experiencing this. This sounds like a great job though! Novel research can be so much fun.

[vapid jay]

so you are a degree uni right ?

[white relic]

It really is 😎

[mortal wedge]

Yes. I have a Biomedical Engineering degree, not a software engineering degree (but it's still in STEM)

[summer roost]

fair enough. In software development, the lack of a degree becomes less relevant as you become more senior and gain more work experience - but that's definitely not true for all industries.

[mortal wedge]

The only downside, at least on my part, is when marketing/sales makes promises for us and is like "You can make this, right?" Sometimes I have to reply with "I'm not sure if it's theoretically possible, let alone feasible for us to do this quarter."

[vapid jay]

still stem ? wdym ?

what kind of remote dev job u are working on it ? web design ?

[mortal wedge]

When applying for software engineering jobs, pretty much all companies want you to have a degree, but there's a heirarchy, all degrees are not viewed equally. The top degree is computer science/software engineering. Then it's other STEM degrees (science, technology, engineering, mathematics). After that are degrees in other fields.

[mortal wedge]

I do neuroscience research and development.

[vapid jay]

the top degree are computer science and IEEE degree no ?

[oak juniper]

Hey guys, I am not someone who is elible for any jobs, but are there any interships going around where I can take part?

[mortal wedge]

Electrical often gets lumped into computer science, especially for firmware/embedded jobs

[mortal wedge]

We don't have any job postings or internships on this server (it's impossible to vet all of them).

Haha, alright. Best of luck in your studies!

[oak juniper]

Ahh, I see, no worries I was hoping if there is something I could take part in

[mortal wedge]

Good luck, hope you're able to find one 🙂

[oak juniper]

Thanks!

[near ocean]

along with the popular job boards there's also a couple of them linked here #career-advice message

[vapid jay]

@mortal wedge so CS and IEEE are on top of choosen ?

[oak juniper]

Thx, Will look into them

[summer roost]

if you want a career coding, the best degrees will be ones that involved coding. Computer Science or Software Engineering obviously, but also things like mathematics, theoretical physics, electronic engineering, etc all tend to require some amount of expressing algorithms to a computer.

[mortal wedge]

For the jobs in your field, yeah

[delicate bane]

do you think youll go back for at least a masters or nah

[dawn leaf]

I had a similar problem, basically solved it by publishing — once I had several papers I started getting more similar treatment to people w phds

[mortal wedge]

I've considered it. I may see if my company would be willing to do some sort of tuition reimbursement. Doing a amsters while working sounds hard though!

[mortal wedge]

Oooh, this is a good idea! I have one paper to my name but tbh it kind of sucks (it was a null disproving a stanford paper). I may have another paper out soon though, hopefully that will give me some leverage against the PhDs

Has anyone else gone back for a masters while working or had their company reimburse? How did all of that work?

[white relic]

I have known several who did but haven't gone through it myself. Generally you have to stay on for a few years after or you have to pay it back

[mortal wedge]

That makes sense

I'm just scared of working and studying at the same time. Not sure if I could hack it

[white relic]

Yeah. I'm looking into it now. Not planning to leave my job but I need to remain employable if something happens

[mortal wedge]

Yeah, agreed. I'd hate to have to go DOWN a seniority level after I leave just because of lack of masters

after/if or if the company gets bought out and downsizes or we run out of funding, etc.

[delicate bane]

my friend is doing it atm. we have some peeps here in this server doing it as well

my friend is doing 2 classes per semester and working full time as a senior devops engineer.

[mortal wedge]

Ah okay

Maybe I'd start with one class per semester just in case, lol

[delicate bane]

its a lot easier if the program is online but ours went back to in-person (its where i met my friend, in the masters program lol) in fall 2021

[vapid jay]

Does coding have a future?

[vapid jay]

i means for dev job

[mortal wedge]

Absolutely!

[mortal wedge]

Comp sci is probably best, but again if there's any sort of hardware involved they'll ask for electrical as well

[vapid jay]

i mean can an ieee apply for job dev ?

doesnt matter if there is or not hardware

[mortal wedge]

Yes, you just may not be as competitive as a comp sci major. The heirarchy is generally Comp sci > STEM degree > Non-stem degree (ieee would fall under STEM degree)

[vapid jay]

what is stem dfegree ?

[mortal wedge]

Stem degree is any degree having to deal with science, technology, engineering, or math.

[vapid jay]

But in ieee there is a lot of programming like assembly, cpp, c#, python etc

[mortal wedge]

I agree, but I'm guessing companies want someone who studies purely programming over someone that just did a lot of programming.

[vapid jay]

hm alright then

[near ocean]

If you have a stem degree you'll be fine, my line manager has a chem degree

[mortal wedge]

Yeah, I wouldn't worry too much about comp sci vs stem. I have a non comp sci degree

HAving non stem and being a developer is much harder but the gap between that and having no degree at all is even wider

unfortunately, the lack of a degree is an extremely easy and convenient way to filter out applicants.

[spark cobalt]

Can attest to that

[vapid jay]

okey

thanks guys

[delicate bane]

can i complain about interns here or no

[buoyant seal]

It depends on how u will do it 😉

[delicate bane]

fineeee

[delicate bane]

lets just say i feel like if you are a grad student with previous work experience, you shouldnt have an undergraduate mindset. how about that?

im really feeling that negative value some interns provide atm. especially since i have to redo all the previous work done and even when i guide them every step of the way, they disappoint me. maybe some people are just bad at listening?

[buoyant seal]

xD, i don't try to guide every step, i just drop tutorial/book how to learn doing it on your own. I resort to guiding every step only if problem is interesting... or i am just bored

[delicate bane]

thats what i tried the first time. just gave them some resources. nothing happened.

so i went ahead and preprocessed the json data for them to prepare it for model training. they still messed that step up even though its just copy and paste from a typical ML library. so THEN i told the data science intern, the issues and what they would need to change in their training pipeline code.

they changed the wrong part and still didnt change what i explicitly told them to. its a big rip moment bc i already know they dont know either 1) coding, 2) data science, or 3) how to ask questions and find answers.

i couldve trained and tested at least 10 models in this timeframe sighhh. ok rant over lol.

anyway @buoyant seal you know what i am discovering recently?

FinOps - theres a podcast about it that im following and its pretty good

[buoyant seal]

and i discovered there is open source free book about advanced usage of git located at the official git site https://git-scm.com/book/en/v2

Free Open Source book about Free Open Source tool 🙂

[delicate bane]

nice. ill reference this if i ever need to rebase something lol

[buoyant seal]

but in reality, i am having fun digitalizing my documentation. I opened two super duper cool tools for me.

git-crypt. Solves an issue that Git repos aren't encrypted. With this tool i have automatically decrypted files in repo locally and automatically encrypted in .git/in remote repo.
https://dev.to/heroku/how-to-manage-your-secrets-with-git-crypt-56ih
https://buddy.works/guides/git-crypt

• opened for me awesome https://sqlitebrowser.org/ sqlitebrowser. Fully GUI way to work with SQLite.
  It is ideal to customize for yourself if you need to deal with documentation/accounting for your small business... as long as u learned prerequisites: Git, SQL and capable to install git-crypt xD
  I customized it, through adding all documents into my database through random in database hash value i add to documents filenames. I just validate pressence of filenames with such hash in my filesystem of git-crypted repo

[delicate bane]

funny you mention small business, the FinOps podcast i listen to is a guy doing consulting based on reducing cloud spend for companies lmao

hes pretty popular - corey quinn

[buoyant seal]

technically it is SRE/Software Architect topic, and u a supposed to learn advanced level of cloud provider usage like AWS in order to be able doing that. Well, and DevOps engineering/infra tools in general. Without tech skills i can't imagine how they plan it xD Probably some another non technical side exists to it

[delicate bane]

for sure. you need to know architecture alternatives. i feel like FinOps is an in-demand skill especially now since companies' cloud spending is going higher and higher lol

[buoyant seal]

I know right. I recently saw horrible prices how much my current team spends on cloud. 50'000$ per month to AWS.

[delicate bane]

bro. that is nothing. our company spends ||redacted|| a month to AWS and then double that for Azure

[buoyant seal]

Well, i guess. xD our project is just a startup. Already many years project, but still startup

[delicate bane]

and all that was done about it was in the all-developers meeting, they said "we need to reduce our cloud spending"

[delicate bane]

yeah they focus on AWS https://www.lastweekinaws.com/

sometimes they bring on azure or gcp peeps on the podcast though

[maiden patrol]

how big is your company that your cloud services cost 50k a month???

[dense mesa]

Don't have to big too big for 50k a month to be worth it

[gritty rivet]

Damn, yeah. I also just today heard someone at work say we spend about $200/month per instance of our app... That's an EC2, an RDS, and a few other basic things. I would guess that's a total spend half your company at most, but we're still pretty small

[gritty rivet]

But compared to monthly customer fees for the app, that's pretty modest

[delicate bane]

per instance of our app
so it could be much, much higher depending on how many instances you have lol

[gritty rivet]

Right, I don't think we have 100 yet

[delicate bane]

<@&831776746206265384> thanks

[true turtle]

!mute 749274869824487465

[analog sun]

!cban 749274869824487465 nsfw spam

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @deep ice until <t:1666995645:f> (1 hour).

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @deep ice permanently.

[delicate bane]

oh wow. it seems like it wont take much for you to reach DW's company's cloud spend. i think overall finops is an underrated skill that may be worth learning more about as more and more companies start feeling the pain in their wallets lol

but that is more in the devops/architecture track yeah

[idle sleet]

How can I work in technology, artificial intelligence, robotics or cybernetics to address environmental and global warming issues?

I thought it would be fun to design and create some projects, like drones to pick up trash in cities or robots to plant trees. Just something along those lines.

I want to have a job that is meaningful and important to humanity in some way. My goal in life is to be able to say on my deathbed that I have contributed more to our world than I have harmed in my lifetime.

In short, to be able to say that I was useful and left something behind.

I probably sound like a jerk, but that's just how I feel.

[gritty rivet]

Get the best degree(s), develop your skills, apply for jobs that interest you. If you can't get jobs that interest you immediately, your options may increase with experience

[spark cobalt]

My mentor does like exact opposite for me. Onboarding I found the guide and did it myself, didn't meet my mentor till the 3rd day where they decided to assign me a ticket and then just worked on ticket mostly by myself

Originally was assigned to my mentor but they were like "fuck it lets just give to him"

[spark cobalt]

Mfw you do 4 years of higher education homework to not be good at homework

[spark cobalt]

[lapis wind]

Really not a lot, if your service is bandwidth heavy then you can easily blow through 50k on services like AWS, GCP or Azure

I think a medium website can easily see 5k+ on AWS

[delicate bane]

wish they gave me someone like you lol

not that i should be mentoring anybody tbh lol

[spark cobalt]

I feel like I'm in one of the more extreme ends of an internship. They just put me on a team and everything I do is exactly as what a normal engineer does except I do less tickets. I always expected that I would be taught things but everything still self taught

[mortal wedge]

Anyone have advice for when somebody with seniority is trying to push to take over your most promising projects?

[delicate bane]

tell me if you find an answer to this lol

[mortal wedge]

Haha, absolutely

[delicate bane]

that was similar to how my internship went down lol

except in DS rather than engineering

[spark cobalt]

[nimble mulch]

I have an OA for gap and I’m a noob codeforces noob hackerrank should I just do it and see what happens for internship?

[peak halo]

what is OA?

[nimble mulch]

Online assessment

[peak halo]

and this is for an internship with the clothing store? or is "gap" something else?

[smoky quest]

You can always prepare for it and work on your weaknesses?

[nimble mulch]

Yeah Gap

Clothing store.
@smoky quest I do 1-2 codeforces a day and am reading textbooks + geek for geek doing code for data structure but I have not in a while

[smoky quest]

Then time to figure out what's blocking you from improving.

[fair vigil]

hi

[nocturne maple]

Hi

[mortal wedge]

Hi@

[spark cobalt]

Hi

[hoary tangle]

Hello everyone. Idk if I should be posting this here, I'm a final year undergrad in India and currently we have our on-campus placements going on (i.e. companies come to our college for hiring students) and the usual process is:

1. Online Aptitude test (English, logical and quantitative ability + may or may not include coding questions based on the company and the role they're hiring for)
2. Technical Interview(s) (There may be more than 1 technical interview usually held offline or sometimes online via google meet or skype)
3. GD (Group discussion round, very few companies conduct this)
4. HR round.

The problem is almost all the students cheat their way through the 1st round by asking their friends to help them. Although the test is proctored by the web camera, they manage to cheat by asking their friends to sit in a position in which they don't come into the frame. Some even use screen sharing and remote PC control softwares. And because majority of students cheat the cut-off for the apt tests booms like anything. It goes 85%-90%+ most of the times and I just can't compete with that. I can't score 90% on aptitude. You get like at max 1 minute or 50 secs for one question. I managed to clear aptitude rounds of 2 different companies. I couldn't make it past the GD round in one and was rejected in the HR round for the other one. Idk what to do. I only have time until December coz that's until when the companies arrive, after that I'll have to go off-campus knocking every companies door which is 10x more difficult than on campus placements. Although this sounds silly & childish, I've kind of lost the will to even appear for test at this point. Can someone suggest me what I should do? I'm thinking of hiring people to help me cheat with the aptitude test.

[spark cobalt]

https://github.com/codecrafters-io/build-your-own-x Pretty nice repo for more medium projects.

[near remnant]

Is it true that if you got your first dev job, then you only need to learn leetcode? What I mean is, side projects wont matter anymore

[buoyant seal]

Good developer learns his whole career. Side projects are nice to fill stuff u a not able to try at work. Side projects make u prepared to try this stuff later at work in prod xD

I have learning schedule of different stuff for year ahead

[near remnant]

Yeah, i learn everyday on the job. Side projects are not really on the level of real work projects

I usually read books or learn stuff when there is down time at work

[buoyant seal]

u will need majorly at least heavy theory learning in a free time. Job gives only practice. Learning theoretical stuff u a on your own.

[near remnant]

Thats what im doing my man

[buoyant seal]

But side projects are still needed if u want to go out of borders of your current job role. People usually hire u for limited amount of tech/skills and using them only is not really healthy
Side project allow transition to other job roles located closely

Plus general knowing of ecosystem of tech (for your job role) is necessary for higher ranks

[near remnant]

Doing side projects is a good way to land your first job. Thats what I did. But imo, learning theory from books and grinding leetcode is better for jumping to a new job.

Many companies dont give a shit about projects

[buoyant seal]

To each each its own. If that's what u wish.
I do projects for me first, i don't give a shit what companies think about it

only i am responsible for my education

[near remnant]

I've been working on my full stack project for months this Summer. But since I got a job, im only focusing on performing well

[gritty rivet]

If you have evidence of this cheating I imagine many of the employers would appreciate hearing from you about it. Maybe that won't solve your immediate problem in the short term but something needs to change

[near remnant]

Creating stupid apps won't land you a great job. Grinding leetcode will.

Of course, if you can create the new Facebook then its a different story..

[buoyant seal]

Many, but not everyone. Some companies would be wishing explicitely hiring people who still continue doing that
Doing side projects u show different passion for work, shrugs.

[buoyant seal]

This sounds so wrong on many levels.

[near remnant]

Isn't grinding leetcode and passing interview tests means having passion?

[buoyant seal]

u a limiting your education to one almost useless skill out of all possible skills to learn

[near remnant]

I mean, I will probably create one or two bigger side projects in the future

But focusing only on side projects is not a good idea in my opinion

[buoyant seal]

not really. I would say it is showing being brainless code monkey. Surely nice dedication, but still kind of not super great achievement

useful for FAANG companies interviews though

[near remnant]

My friend got a job at Amazon by only grinding leetcode

But yeah, I understand your point. Diving into different technologies by creating projects is nice. I've done it.

[buoyant seal]

well, lets agree to disagree then

i prefer theory books + pet projects. ideal combination so far in my opinion

[near remnant]

Anyways, there is not a wrong decision in this. Grinding leetcode or making side projects, or doing both, will result great stuff down the road.

People just have to find their path i think. Im only one month into my job and Im so new, cant focus on side projects at the moment.

[buoyant seal]

the problem is... grinding leetcode u a basically training 1 skill out of dozens. While pet projects are massively training all possible skills you are ready to learn after reading all the theory books.

in pet projects u make your tasks in the way, that challenge u to try everything of the learned from past and recently

plus expanding your technology tree for missing pieces for next rank

[near remnant]

I agree. I only have one fullstack app and I got my job thanks to that.

But u can learn theory from books and pass interviews by grinding leetcode. So even without doing many pet projects, you will be able to answer questions because u learned from books.

[buoyant seal]

the problem is... i don't really value skill to pass interviews through leetcoding. i encounter 90%+ job interviews which do not require leetcoding

i value more to learn what those 90% of jobs require of me, or expect

even when i had leetcoding task, i was able to solve it without previous trainings in leetcoding sufficiently enough to get to another stage of interview

[near remnant]

Yeah, i get it. I will do leetcode and projects imo. In the future. Im good for now.

[near ocean]

do leetcode only to pass interview
be miserable at your job because you suck at it because its nothing like leetcode
I dont advise tbh

[clear loom]

do recruiters actually not read cover letters but ask for it anyway?

[clear loom]

would you rather be miserable at job or have no job /s

[near ocean]

I would rather be good at my job

About cover letters, i hate them, never wrote any for a job in my life because im 1000% convinced its an HR power trip and nothing more

[clear loom]

but what if you wouldn't get it without leetcoding

[near ocean]

Its not one or the other, i do both

[clear loom]

thanks, i just end up using gpt3 to generate them sometimes but i usually avoid writing them as well

[near ocean]

It'd be interesting to see if an application moves past initial screening with autogenerated cover letters, nobody, nobody cares about them

[clear loom]

then why ask for it ;-;

[near ocean]

Because HR needs to justify its existence to the CFO

[near remnant]

@near ocean here again to fuck up the server

[near ocean]

<@&831776746206265384>

[near remnant]

I wouldn't be surprised if people leave this server thanks to guys like him

[clear loom]

the more i hear about corps, the more i lean towards /r/antiwork

[near remnant]

Sup @near ocean

[clear loom]

@near remnant would u mind taking this to #ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval since it doesn't look relevant here

[near ocean]

Not writing a cover letter is objectively a bad decision so i dont recommend it tbh, but I personally would not, its just principle i guess

[near remnant]

Yeah im sorry, have a nice day

[near ocean]

If youre absolutely minmaxing job hunting you would send one with every job app

[clear loom]

nah i'm not really minmaxing but i just keep one generic letter that i send out if they ever ask

[near ocean]

Fair, you do what you gotta do

[peak halo]

!warn 187284368681730048 Saying that another user is "here again to fuck up the server" is a clear violation of our code of conduct. If you disagree with another user's behavior, tell us over @severe widget instead of making rude remarks.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied warning to @near remnant.

[peak halo]

If you're about to dispute what I just said, do it over @severe widget, not here.

[near ocean]

So, my probation is almost up, I asked for a meeting with my line manager next week. Is it standard or a common thing to have a career progression document or guidelines or framework?

I asked if such a thing exists and I hope they didnt take it the wrong way, im not trying to leave just yet

It also might just be bad timing, we've had a slew of terrible tech assessment stage interviews

[buoyant seal]

Exactly!

better be doing job well after u got interviewed and started doing job, being not fired form doing poor job xD
than passing multiple interviews with leetcoding (which is not really important because u need to pass just some of them anyway)

[copper burrow]

I don't know if this is the right channel to post this question but is told Academy worth the price if I am trying to learn for being able to take a Python class at the University I go to for continuing education, I have learning disabilities and need a head start in order to learn things. I like it because I to learn multiple languages if I paid the $300

I also found the coupon for 50% off. For the first year

[dense mesa]

Seems like a lot of money, there are many courses and structures online for free

[gilded valley]

We don't have an official one, but occasionally random spreadsheets get sent about claiming to be this

so it's the kind of thing where you'd expect something - even if it is just a conversation where he outlines how these things work

[copper burrow]

@dense mesa where besides YouTube are the free courses because they said there was free ones code Academy but they taught you like three things and then major pay

[gritty rivet]

One place worth checking out: www.freecodecamp.com

🎉 Just passed my AWS Cloud Practitioner exam! 🎉

[copper burrow]

congratulations on passing your exam, I hope you get a job very doon

soon

[spark cobalt]

Books.

[spark cobalt]

You've been misinformed. Think about it on the hiring side when they think of hiring someone with 0 experience.

Would they rather hire someone that has only done Leetcode, something with very little practical use on the job, or someone that has done projects, which gives a person experience on code structure, design, strategy to deployment, versioning, developing a workflow, debugging/code writing/etc. on a higher level blah blah blah.

People want experience in the people they hire. And for someone that has no experience, projects are significantly better in terms of "making up for it" than like Leetcode

[spark cobalt]

What

[gilded valley]

I know someone who got hired at Microsoft - they spent half of their interview time talking about a personal project

[nimble mulch]

you need everything... pet projects, LC, exp, other interests hobbies, sfoft skills

[prisma hollow]

I think I am getting rejected because I am not a good storyteller

People say use your connections get them submit internal referral. But I literally do not have any connections here since I am new in usa, I don't know wtf should i do.

[vapid jay]

Wtf

[prisma hollow]

Applying jobs online feels like futile now

[spark cobalt]

Where in the US if you don't mind me asking?

More tech hubby places you can go out and make connections by going to tech meetups.

[prisma hollow]

Jersey City

[spark cobalt]

Something I did almost the moment I moved to San Jose.

[spark cobalt]

Oh that should be a good place

[spark cobalt]

Can be easily worked on since people of all backgrounds have to go through this :). Perhaps there's someone that can be there to hear you and give comments?

[prisma hollow]

I contacted consultancies, they drafted my resume, and showed I am working since i was 13 year old. Like wtf dude atleast write a lie which atleast legally right..

[spark cobalt]

Don't go through consulting companies. They're scams if they're doing something like that.

You may be getting rejected a lot because of that.

[prisma hollow]

Tell me more about tech meetups

[spark cobalt]

Yeah! I found the meetups I went to at https://www.meetup.com/. A website called EventBrite might have some as well. The meetups I attended to were Startup to IPO meetups that happened everyday in San Jose, but they can have all kinds of topics and goals.

[prisma hollow]

I am thinking about emailing hiring manager or recruiters directly

[spark cobalt]

Calling local recruiting company can be beneficial.

[prisma hollow]

I can find emails through LinkedIn

[spark cobalt]

Hiring managers I'm unsure about. Recruiters, calling/emailing local ones is a good plan.

[prisma hollow]

Im thinking about making a list of companies and find their recruitiers' or hr's emails

[spark cobalt]

Probably only email them if you know they have a position open that matches with your previous experience/what you know.

Writing email for work, without a specific position in mind, feels off putting. But maybe someone else can give their insight on it.

It just raises the question of why didn't you apply through the company's career page or something.

[prisma hollow]

Yeah thats the prob I was thinking like they can just tell me apply online

I had call few days ago from Bank of America, wrong number tho, i asked them if they have open position and can they give internal referral for me, they told me, apply through online application.

[spark cobalt]

Don't call the company asking for a referral

[prisma hollow]

I didnt call

They called my num

[spark cobalt]

Yeah just don't ask for a referral from the company itself.

That's not the intention of a referral whatsoever.

[prisma hollow]

No i asked for if they can hook me up with someone in their IT team

They asked me why, I said I'm searching for a job and Bank of America feels like a nice place to workin.

They be like go apply online....

[spark cobalt]

Lot of recruiters are lazy

[prisma hollow]

I'm totally lost 😵

[spark cobalt]

Do you have a college degree?

[prisma hollow]

Yes bachelor's, I am the same guy who asked for help to improve my resume here and you helped me back then

[spark cobalt]

Did you add like your name, contact information and socials to your resume?

[prisma hollow]

Really appreciate your help

[prisma hollow]

Yes,. including LinkedIn and GitHub

I dont have many connections in LinkedIn and my github is kinda plain, have 2 of projects there to show.

[spark cobalt]

Your resume looks fine. Maybe it's how you're applying to jobs?

[prisma hollow]

Maybe

[spark cobalt]

I don't think people really look at Github.

[prisma hollow]

I gave test assessments in LinkedIn, also attached my hacker rank certificates in there

[spark cobalt]

Generally sites like LinkedIn and Indeed are super super competitive. Every new tech job has a dozen applications in like 10 minutes. Better to try to find more targetted ways to apply to a job.

[spark cobalt]

Tbh I've done a few of the test assessments and I don't got a single clue to where people will be able to see those .

[prisma hollow]

I even made bets in dota with team if we win you give internal referral for me xD

[spark cobalt]

Referral just gets your resume read by an actual human. It doesn't guarantee they'll give you an interview opportunity, just increases the chance for it.

[prisma hollow]

Its better than having 1% response rate from online applications

[spark cobalt]

At least from my experience with connections I've built here, I've been able to get access to quite a lot of jobs that haven't been posted to job boards yet for just getting out of my comfort zone. Striving for more long term goal in terms of connections probably wise.

[prisma hollow]

Plus rn im working full time in pharma company, im trying to make connections there if anyone in there have IT connections

[spark cobalt]

But definitely to make those quality connections, have to have a story that makes them want to help you and think of you when they have a job opportunity. So definitely work on that.

[spark cobalt]

Have you tried switching to the tech side internally?

[prisma hollow]

The company doesn't care about that, all things are running in old fashioned physical paperworks.

They only care about the money they are making, doesn't care about their employees, employees also doesn't care about company they just do their job and get paychecks, and half of their employees' age are above 40-50.

Maybe they cant change it into digital forms because of fda or cgmp guidelines idk.

Oh I misunderstood your question, no I haven't because, i just joined the company hardly a week ago, i also asked the interviewer if they have any open tech jobs, they told me they don't have any. ( It was through referral so it was ok for me to asked them)

[near remnant]

?

[near remnant]

Indeed, but im talking about people with experience as a developer, not people who tryna get their first dev role.

[clear loom]

not true, the odin project is living proof of that

[near remnant]

What do you mean?

[white relic]

leetcode score is totally irrelevant for people who have actual experience in the field

[clear loom]

have you seen the odin project? its basically a course designed to introduce you to web development, and a lot of people have had success landing jobs after making some of the suggested apps

[near remnant]

Bro, im talking about interviewing 💀💀

[white relic]

Leetcode is a cheap filter for people who have no experience

[clear loom]

they range from something as simple as tic tac toe to a full fledged clone of popular websites like tinder, facebook and stuff

[near remnant]

Yes, but can u understand what Im saying? You can do projects to get ur first dev job. But if u already have dev experience then maybe try to focus on passing the interviews.

[mortal wedge]

As a project member who has troublesome team members with seniority, how do you deal with them? It feels like I have the responsibility to lead without any real power.

[white relic]

Oof. I know someone who was in that position. (I was one of the troublesome team members)

[clear loom]

i've always felt that technical round was more about speaking your mind and working through a solution rather than trying to come up with an optimal code, at least that was my experience

[white relic]

Unfortunately his solution was to quit so idk if I can offer any relevant advice

[clear loom]

and i'm not saying leetcode doesn't help, i'm just saying if you've built apps, you'll know your way around data structures and a little bit of algorithms

[white relic]

In my situation, it might have been better if the person in question had been more upfront with our superiors about the difficulty he was having and how he wasn't empowered to take concrete action. Higher ups don't always understand the social dynamics within a team because they have actual power

It might not have mattered in the end though. Hard to say.

[mortal wedge]

Honestly, I'd quit if they just handed this project over to him. Even other people in the company are confused as to who's leading the project, because he keeps bragging about the project/progress

It's infuriating me and it's affecting my life at home

[white relic]

Sorry you're dealing with that. Sounds like a tough situation and it could be hard to have a frank discussion about it

But it's probably still better to have that discussion before you decide to quit

[mortal wedge]

I'm going to discuss with my boss on monday

Hopefully he has some ideas/insight, but the truth is if I went toe to toe with this coworker he'd probably win, he's been with the company longer.

[fair vigil]

hi

[delicate bane]

let me know how monday goes and if you have tips for navigating such a situation after the convo or if your boss has advice

asking for a friend

[round nexus]

Hey guys Im a bit sad Abt my python progress I've started python Abt 2 months ago and I've been trying my best to understand it and I think I've done a good job of understanding the basics however whenever I see someone making a new project or a game with pygame or anything complex I immediately get stuck and feel like I've made no progress at all so are there any tips anyone would wanna give me regarding projects and how to actually make something with python rather than just understanding the basics.

[noble oriole]

Hello everyone!
I am writing my cover letter for entry-level positions in Software Engineering, and I need help finding the right words to express that I am interested in best Software Engineering practices such as design patterns and UML design, rather than just typing in mindless code, hoping it will pass the unit test.

How can I express this is one sentence?

[peak halo]

are you sure you need a cover letter? I didn't think those were widely required, and especially not for entry-level positions.

[noble oriole]

I thought about making one because these entry positions get tons of applicants

Maybe I can include that info to my resume?

[spark cobalt]

It seems like you've hit the Dunning Kruger effect (or some derivation of it), essentially the hardest/steepest path of your learning career. At this point it's a matter of getting uncomfortable, it's a matter of stepping out of your comfort zone to solve a problem.

The whole purpose of doing projects consecutively harder is not because you're expected to somehow create them with your previous knowledge. But it's a situation where you're able to grow and do something that's foreign to you. Embrace the uncomfortableness and fight through it would be my advice.

In terms of learning a framework/library, it also may sound like you've hit into a little bit of a tutorial hell? Instead of having someone show how to make one thing, and then expecting to make something similar, learn the higher level ideas, the concepts that go behind the decisions in something you may see in a tutorial so you can make those decisions yourself. And the best place to get these higher level ideas are through books in my opinion.

I'm working on a book project that helps people get resources for whatever topic they want and need. If you need books for a certain framework/technology, do let me know. 🙂

[gritty rivet]

Say it and show it with the projects on your resume

[balmy spade]

What projects are you building?

Comparing yourself to others is always a net-negative so I suggest pushing yourself away from that. Not an easy thing to do, for sure.

[round nexus]

Well I'm generally learning python to better understand the coding part of game dev as a whole so I got into python and whenever I see someone make a game from python alone like pygame tutorials I feel like I haven't really learnt anything despite learning alot of basics and noting alot of stuff down and it's the same when I think Abt some form of test like what if I become a software engineer like what exactly are they gonna ask me to do, they most certainly aren't gonna ask me to define functions and lists and all that basic stuff lol. So I'm just confused over how to actually get started with python like am I still a learning beginner or should I start making big projects with python

[balmy spade]

You should make something that you don't quite know how to make. When you've made that you should make the next thing you don't know how to make. The cycle never ends, there is always more to learn.

what if I become a software engineer like what exactly are they gonna ask me to do, they most certainly aren't gonna ask me to define functions and lists and all that basic stuff lol

At a basic level, this is all I do as a software engineer. I define functions. I make lists, dicts, and dataclasses. I build for-loops and while-loops. I have to know how to assign a variable and I have to understand that lists are mutable while tuples are immutable.

The basics are every project you will ever make. That's why making projects, making something is so important. You need to learn how to program, not just what the Python language is.

Never think a project is "too small". If it is teaching you something you've not done before, it's valuable.

[summer geyser]

Something I’m curious about.. how does it typically work on a job? The company I’m going to work for uses agile and sprints. I guess I’m curious how the work is assigned/works. Is it like I’ll be told to make a function that does xyz or is it more “build something that does xyz”

I’m not exactly sure how to describe it, I guess I’m wondering examples of what I’ll be asked to do as a new dev?

[smoky quest]

If you are junior, it will be the former. The more senior, the more like the latter

[summer geyser]

So in a way the seniors will be the ones that say okay well to build that we need (different functions) and then assigns the juniors to make those different functions? At a very basic level lol

[smoky quest]

something like that. But the more advanced the junior, the less specifics the seniors need to be

[balmy spade]

To expand on that, with agile the work is sized to be completed within a sprint. So a task might be "Create a database" and weighted for half a day's work. Another task might be "Create a report on the admin panel" and be weighted for half a week's work. These weights can change depending on who the task is assigned too. If you're fresh to the project/source a "Create a database" gets rated higher for you because it's expected you need more time to accomplish it.

[summer geyser]

That makes it sound like leetcode won’t be that far off from a job lol

Okay that makes sense, I didn’t know that’s how it worked with the weights

[balmy spade]

You can ask in #python-discussion , #discord-bots , or get a help room via #❓｜how-to-get-help

[near ocean]

Leetcode is very very far off from the job
The number one issue with tackling tickets is trying to understand what the fuck the client actually wants

[spark cobalt]

[balmy spade]

If that's the number one issue you face from your work board then whomever is making those tickets needs to level up.

[smoky quest]

leetcode has nothing to do with a real job

[near ocean]

Its usually non tech people, directly reported from clients, or annoying fed up tired support engineers

[balmy spade]

Shouldn't hit a dev board directly, imo. That should hit a work intake where it's fielded, details are captured, and questions asked. At best, it belongs in the "new" column until something better is fleshed out. That's the work of the project owner, BA, or such.

[near ocean]

The point is that real life tasks are never as well defined as anything even close to leetcode

[round nexus]

Thanks alot for that it really helped me I'ma start on something tommorow

[smoky quest]

and even if they were, the scope and focus of leetcode is on 5 lines of code, whereas the focus of a well defined task would remain much larger. And that's not even including the tests, docs, integration, etc.

[prime drift]

what would you think is the best route to get a data analyst job?

[smoky quest]

a cs degree is the best route. Math/stats oriented degree depending on the specifics as well

[peak halo]

If you specifically want to be an analyst, a degree in statistics or math would probably work. You might also aim to be a machine learning engineer, which involves applying a lot of math and statistics concepts. But you'd want a CS degree for that.

[prime drift]

is their any entry level jobs that would help me while i get a cs degree

[peak halo]

You should aim to get internships over the summer while you're a CS student. Not part time work.

[gilded valley]

If you can find relevant part time work, it can be great - some universities have small companies that offer part time work nearby, but it's definitely not particularly common

if you do get part-time work, definitely look for other internships during the summer. You want to get exposure to as many different potential employers as possible

[prime drift]

to be honest i have a love for psychology if i'm gonna go to college anyway i might just go for a psychology degree but i don't know if that would get me anywhere

that's why i like data analysis

[peak halo]

Unfortunately, we live in a dystopian society where getting a degree is a generally bad idea unless it will increase your earning potential.

(I almost got a linguistics degree )

[prime drift]

true but is a degree in psychology that bad i thought it would have some value

[peak halo]

I would look to see what jobs one can get with an undergraduate psychology degree. I looked a few minutes ago, and it looks like they're mostly clinical.

[prime drift]

i will thank you for your help 😊

[peak halo]

And I actually forgot to check if they don't require a master's.

[smoky quest]

It's also very much USA specific. Not every country share that view

[peak halo]

I would hope so

[spark cobalt]

[gritty rivet]

Any degree is better than no degree. Mine is in sociology. I'm at a disadvantage compared to my coworkers with CS degrees, but I'm doing fine

[static tide]

How do I get my first job as a beginner?

[prime drift]

Do you think the IBM course on data analytics would help me get through the door?

[gritty rivet]

Data analytics is not my field... But whenever I'm evaluating a course or a cert and what opportunities it might open, LinkedIn is a valuable resource. See who lists it and what they're doing, reach out with questions

[prime drift]

Thank you, will do

[gritty rivet]

By developing skills and applying for jobs.

If you want any more specific advice then that you'll need to say more about where you're coming from

[mortal wedge]

I think people are desperate to distinguish themselves from others at that stage, although especially at that stage nobody is reading a cover letter.

[mortal wedge]

Having a course is great for educating yourself, but outside of college and maybe some boot camps most people won't read into it too much unless the course is offered where you're applying. For instance, an IBM course when you're applying at IBM

[wind solstice]

hello question if i want to get a specific job with coding like networking or cyber security do i learn the whole language or di i learn certain parts

[mortal wedge]

Kind of both? You learn how the language works and then you learn the specific modules related to your domains.

[wind solstice]

ok

[smoky quest]

It's like anything, you walk backward from your goal to see what you need to learn.
But in the context of a programming language, only knowing specific parts of it will severely limits the thoughts and concepts you can express. So yes, you should learn at least one programming language if you want to program.

[smoky quest]

courses and certificates have pretty much no value outside of specific areas (networking, project management [and even then...]).
They also do not compare in any way with a degree.

If you want to be in data analytics, go with a degree related to that and learn psychology as a hobby (sometimes, you can also attend classes as an observer). But don't make your life more difficult than it needs to be by going to an irrelevant degree. Similarly, don't go in a cs degree if you want to have a psychology related job

[delicate bane]

oh hey melio. havent seen you in while. hope schools been good

[delicate bane]

haha truth

[delicate bane]

this honestly makes me kinda sad

[stoic roost]

What do I need to learn if I want to become a software developer, without degree.
By software developer well idk what I mean but that's what google says... We want to hire software developer

[vapid jay]

for google? a degree

[stoic roost]

I need a degree?

[spark cobalt]

Depends on what you wanna do. The industry is very very broad.

And no matter what you decide to do, showing to recruiters and hiring managers your worth compared to college graduates is a really really difficult task. College Degree vs No College Degree is one of the easiest ways to eliminate potential hires.

[smoky quest]

Any reason you are trying to avoid it?

[spark cobalt]

There are thousands upon thousands of new grads searching for an entry level job or an internship and many of them send 500 applications to just get like 10 responses.

Now imagine being in the same competitive market without a degree.

For 10 responses I had to do like 4000 applications.

[stoic roost]

I'm already in college and I didn't choose computer 😅

[smoky quest]

you may want to look into changing major then?

[spark cobalt]

2 job offers, 4 interviews to the final round, the rest eliminated from preliminary round.

[smoky quest]

Degree or no degree aren't equivalent. If the question is if you would be able to find a job without one, then yes. But the jobs and careers will be very different

[spark cobalt]

Not fun numbers.

[stoic roost]

Well well my college doesn't offer technical subjects

[smoky quest]

you may want to look into changing college then?

[stoic roost]

What would be the difference?

[spark cobalt]

Doesn't make sense to pay for a service you don't want or need.

[stoic roost]

Hmm yeah you are right

[smoky quest]

responsibilities, career, domain, compensation, etc.
The mechanics at your local garage does not have the same career than the engineer working on spaceships at nasa 😉

[stoic roost]

I mean I'm studying math in college and I want to study math but I also want to study computer

[stoic roost]

So without degree I can become local garage level developer and never reach nasa level?

[smoky quest]

yep

[stoic roost]

I should probably take admission into some open/distance university where I can get a degree without going to University

[smoky quest]

And for some people it's fine. It really depends on what you are looking for

[spark cobalt]

I'll reach NASA level to prove recursive wrong

[smoky quest]

Go for it! That's something I would love for it to happen

[stoic roost]

ULPT: fake it till you make it
What if I fake a degree will they file a case against me?

[spark cobalt]

Maybe in future if I aim for sustainability. But now that's not the plan

[smoky quest]

anything may happen. could be sued for wages back too

[stoic roost]

Like Jail 🤔

[smoky quest]

but again, if you think you can fake it just by 2-3 lines on a resume, you are gravely mistaken

[stoic roost]

Okay then I'll just show look I've a PhD in Math now I'm better than you avg programmer as I know programming too 🦈🥲

Idk if there is something called PhD in Math as PhD is for some dedicated part of math...

[smoky quest]

there are phds in math. But don't lie about it. Honesty is the best policy

[stoic roost]

Nvm I'll take admission into a open University for degree in computer and i don't think that will cost much

[stoic roost]

Best ≠ perfect 😉

[smoky quest]

state universities are also somewhat reasonable. Furthermore, CS is a field where your initial compensation will make the investment in the cost not an issue

[smoky quest]

it is. Lying or trying to establish skills you don't have will just make you fail and sometimes with grave consequences

[spark cobalt]

Imagine going into a job where everyone has an expectation you cannot meet.

[stoic roost]

Idk why I'm talking like a fraudster 😅
Nvm forgive me sometimes I get too excited and speak nonsense

[smoky quest]

I noticed.
Keep in mind that you have barely any interview experience. On the other side of the table, the interviewer has seen it all and has been in hundreds/thousands of interviews. They will spot you a mile away

[spark cobalt]

Ok tbh I think people have way too high expectations for me at my job but oh well.

[stoic roost]

Now my task is to find a university that provides distance learning in computer science

[smoky quest]

Given how far you have come, that should not be a problem for you 😎 (no pressure)

[stoic roost]

Makes sense they are expert at reading people

[spark cobalt]

I know of quite a few math majors that got in rather easily for DS. The issue is moreso are you willing to take that risk of having a related degree rather than a CS degree.

[spark cobalt]

Yeah so far not any problems. The plan they have for me is going really well.

[stoic roost]

Higher expectations can you share more info like what kind of expectations do they have

[spark cobalt]

PhD expected to know more than an associates. Just the same with YOE, if you worked in CS for 4 years, they expect that you don't ask things about Git or something.

[stoic roost]

Math is Daddy of all other subjects I mean most technical subjects

[spark cobalt]

Questions are good until it's to the point of "you have a PhD and don't know even that?" Or "you've worked here for 2 months and don't even know that?"

[smoky quest]

that sounds pretty toxic tbh

[spark cobalt]

I hear that from some of my connections. Just like the first 2 weeks are open question then after not so much.

[smoky quest]

it's a matter of if the question is google-able or the question is related to tribal knowledge or tricky

[stoic roost]

If I get a degree from open University in Computer science will that be okay?

[smoky quest]

what matters is if you get a Bsc or not

[spark cobalt]

Yeah trutru

My company's culture is super flexible on this question asking which is really nice.

So far everyone I've talked to seem to be engaged on helping others and me. Really nice

[smoky quest]

that's awesome!

Whenever you hear stuff about "how you didn't know that?", it's about making themselves feel better and ego driven. Not the best place to be

[stoic roost]

Any guess how much will it cost to get education from a open University? In computer science

[smoky quest]

In CA, local state college was around 14k$/year last time I checked

[spark cobalt]

Oh yeah I don't mean like they verbally say that. But just like the inside like they expected you to know something.

But yeah, driven supportive team is

[stoic roost]

Do I have to go to college or distance learning is available?

[fair vigil]

hi

[smoky quest]

doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is whether you get a bsc or not.

[spark cobalt]

Especially cuz of pandemic, there definitely should be colleges that offer remote. At least I see a few advertised every so often. Should research into that.

[smoky quest]

That said, there is some value for in-person learning and networking. College parties too 😉

[spark cobalt]

Like Phoenix or something keep advertising that.

[smoky quest]

phoenix got sued a few times...

[spark cobalt]

Man you named everything I'm missing out on. I'm giga lonely

[spark cobalt]

[fair vigil]

do you watch anime

[smoky quest]

if you are in the bay, there are a few places you could go for parties. SF, Mountain View, SJC downtown, santana row...

[stoic roost]

Networking.... Can't I do that online like on some online meet or idk what those are called maybe conference. Does LinkedIn helps?

[spark cobalt]

I've lost like all motivation to try to get into the college scene

[smoky quest]

there is nothing like a drink shared between human beings.

[spark cobalt]

I'm 18 can't drink

[spark cobalt]

Oo been to Santana Row and downtown. Will keep in mind

I spent my yesterday going to the Sikh temple in East San Jose, then watching a movie by myself

[stoic roost]

I don't drink 😅

[spark cobalt]

Started watching some today. First time in more than a year or something.

[smoky quest]

drink != alcoholic beverage. It could be some bubble tea, coffee, or tea

[stoic roost]

Hmmm right then my excuse is I'm introvert

[spark cobalt]

Mfw don't drink any of that OJ and water for life

[spark cobalt]

If you're in SJ let's meet

[fair vigil]

relay

[stoic roost]

https://tenor.com/view/funny-animals-thirsty-kitten-drink-up-ice-water-gif-10692620

[spark cobalt]

This wildly off topic

[fair vigil]

😂 wtf

[stoic roost]

Trust issue i don't trust people from internet and I'm not in sj

[spark cobalt]

I've so far met like 6 people I've met from Discord. Very fun

[smoky quest]

you could also go to local tech meetups. You get to see an interesting talk too (most of the time)

[spark cobalt]

I started my networking growth by going to this Startup To IPO meetup that happened everyday in SJ

Learned a lot from them. Solid guys

[fair vigil]

https://tenor.com/view/awkward-lol-gif-20709392

[spark cobalt]

It's getting late need to cook dinner

[fair vigil]

this is my life

[smoky quest]

most folks use text to communicate here. There is nothing to worry about contributing what's on your mind
No need to use gifs like that 😉

[pulsar zinc]

hey, I've been wondering what should I be looking to have in my portfolio before applying to my first job as developer

scary stuff

[smoky quest]

what type of role are you looking for?

In the end, it's about demonstrated skills. You can look at https://roadmap.sh/ for skills related to different jobs

If you look at multiple job ads for your target role, you should see some common skills they are looking for

[pulsar zinc]

great site, thanks

I'm looking for a junior backend job, most ads just ask for "1-2 years python experience"

[smoky quest]

they should talk about some databases, frameworks and such. https://roadmap.sh/ has a backend section

[pulsar zinc]

I'm looking, but I still think I need ways to show my proficiency somehow to even get considered for an interview, or am I wrong?

[smoky quest]

You are correct. Your project(s) should exhibit the related skills

[pulsar zinc]

so... any ideas? 🤣

[smoky quest]

an ecommerce backend

[spark cobalt]

Something that I did was Django backend (rest framework) + React front end + Discord bot.

Super fun, I should add on the project

[pulsar zinc]

sounds cool

[humble kelp]

True, also the most underrated thing that I often see people miss out is if you can get your hands on AWS learning environment, that is the best. Since AWS is the market leader, and a company would much prefer someone who already knows about the cloud service they use @pulsar zinc

And you can get to learn a whole lot, making APIs, working with databases, storage, computing. Everything honestly.

[smoky quest]

tbh, given your nickname, I was not expecting such wisdom

[stoic roost]

What is a software architect? Is it a System designer? Dev ops?

[spark cobalt]

I think AWS offers certificates for that if you can't get your hands on an environment

[smoky quest]

I would suggest to start by googling these terms and asking for specific questions around them.
I don't think I would be able to do a better job than google for that

[humble kelp]

LMFAO 💀 I also work at MAANG

[smoky quest]

So sorry! I empathize

[humble kelp]

Indeed. Absolutely perfect.

[spark cobalt]

I work as Amazon warehouse

[stoic roost]

MAANG 🤔 I've heard FAANG

[humble kelp]

Thanks. My life is hell. 😞

[spark cobalt]

Facebook renamed to Meta

[stoic roost]

You store stuff in your body 🤔

[stoic roost]

https://tenor.com/view/living-in-the-past-kevinmcgarry-gif-22563824

[stoic roost]

I tell everyone to use google and I'm asking such stupid questions here 🥲

[smoky quest]

In general:

• What is <FOO>? -> Google is the best
• Any specific point about <FOO>? -> Here is a good place

[stoic roost]

After reading few things on Software architect I think it's somewhat similar to a system designer

[smoky quest]

it depends. There is some intersection, but the intent and meaning behind them can be quite different

What's the context of your question?

[stoic roost]

Yup that's why I said somewhat similar just like a Android developer is similar to iOS developer, and i think that's all I need to know as I don't want to be a software architect

[smoky quest]

why not?

[stoic roost]

https://tenor.com/view/im-different-girl-crazy-insane-im-just-crazy-gif-17652302

[spark cobalt]

Don't senior people make a lot of architectural decisions anyways, no matter their title

[smoky quest]

yes. The more senior you are, the more your work at the meta-level.
That includes architectural decisions

[spark cobalt]

[pulsar zinc]

I just wanna type stuff on a screen for a living why is it so hard

[smoky quest]

shakespeare is not known because he knew about writing text in english. He was popular because of the impact of his writing

[dreamy shadow]

I have some not so friendly thoughts about Shakespeare and the # of readings I had to do.

[smoky quest]

so do many people when having to use google/facebook written by millionaires engineers

[languid zinc]

“class today we will be reading linkedlist3.cpp, please turn to line 280. Discuss how this is a consequence of the industrial revolution “

[smoky quest]

Hi! Is there a question?

[molten owl]

Hey, where can I find internships or just people to work with on data analytics projects? looking for a career switch and wanted to build a data analyst centered portfolio

[reef quarry]

Hi Developers.

I like using Python for both Web development and Data Science. My English/grammar is a bit poor. In my Resume Summary section, is it okay to write 'Enthusiastic Python Programmer' Any suggestions?

[crude moon]

You can write that, it doesnt really make much difference, whether you get an interview will depend more on what you have done more than emotive words, but they cant hurt really.

[reef quarry]

Okay. Just wanted to write a proper introduction, since that will be the first thing the HR will see.

[crude moon]

maybe passionate instead of enthusiastic

I would need to see the whole thing in context though

[reef quarry]

I kept like this:

Passionate Python programmer with the ability to learn and collaborate in rapidly changing environments and compositions. Proficient in developing databases, writing and testing codes, troubleshooting simple/complex issues, and implementing new features based on user feedback.

[crude moon]

I would change "Proficient in developing databases" to "Proficient in working with databases" unless you actually develop databases?

also "codes" should be "code"

[reef quarry]

Uhh. Thank you🙂

[crude moon]

yw

[delicate bane]

oof sounds about right. its okay, the tradeoff should be worth it later on. and nice! bioconductor helps you work with genomic data if you need it

[mortal wedge]

There's a major company in my area that hires globally for genomic stuff. Interviewed there, but failed 😦

[vapid jay]

@hallow escarp

[empty obsidian]

does anyone know what cp -a do

[smoky quest]

Hi and welcome! Your question has nothing to do with this channel. You may want to check #❓｜how-to-get-help

[static tide]

I have no experience, looking to start a new career in Python. Have experience in WordPress and website building.

[mortal wedge]

Are you interested in web development?

[static tide]

Yes

[gritty rivet]

If you haven't built any projects with a Python backend framework, I would start there. Once you have even one such project on your resume, get feedback on your resume and then try applying for relevant jobs

[static tide]

Thanks for your input.

[smoky quest]

and mandatory mention that if you are in HS or college age, then a CS degrees is the most straightfoward path with the most opportunities

[sharp anvil]

Hi there, does anyone know how to recruit someone to make a quick python generated game for my business? Is there a specific thread or discord to go to? TIA 😁

[smoky quest]

Freelance websites would be the way to go. That means websites like upwork or fiverrr

[minor timber]

Do you have any advice for someone who went the CS route, completed a good amount of the coding classes, but the calculus ended up being too difficult and I had to switch to Cybersecurity. I really enjoy coding and still code. I have side projects and a github library of work done. I'll be graduating with my AS and 2 or 3 coding proficiency certificates. I would really like to do something involving coding, python specifically, but open to get some experience first as I have no real world. I've been looking for entry level positions near me and haven't found much. I'm a bit nervous I won't find my place. Any advice lol?

[gritty rivet]

Your projects are on your resume? If you can anonymize it and share it here you may get feedback

[minor timber]

that would be a good idea I can do that for sure. they are nothing crazy but ill let you all tell me.

[urban lynx]

Hey there, this might be a noob question, but what does a python backend developer do? What kind of things are they expected to do or know?

[smoky quest]

they work on everything that is not running on the browser or your mobile device (hence the name "back end" as opposed to the "front end" of things). So that could include managing the users, registrations, reminders, notifications, their data and associated processes

You can find an example of related skills there: https://roadmap.sh/backend

[summer roost]

They work with databases, message queues, caches, and such to build all of the parts of a system that aren't directly user facing.

[low field]

What is a good resume template for a self-taught coder?

[summer roost]

I'm a fan of https://www.overleaf.com/latex/templates/awesome-cv/dfnvtnhzhhbm - it has a flag to disable the weird coloring of the first 3 letters of the section heading, and that's the only thing I don't like about it

[low field]

That's good but a little too detailed for me. My only work experience I have is creating a website for someone.

[true harness]

you're able to add or remove sections as necessary. just add more projects to fill in the space or something

[summer roost]

the template is just about layout and formatting, etc. You determine the contents.

[low field]

projects are "anything on Github"?

[true harness]

well, anything that you think demonstrates your skills that you can talk about and be proud of. it might be on github (probably should be)

[low field]

Even if it's just a personal project (something not done for someone else)?

[true harness]

yeah, i think it's assumed they're personal projects

[low field]

I see. Thank you so much.

What should I put for my current job? I'd assume they'd want some contacts to know if I was a good worker or not, even if it's unrelated to the field.

[true harness]

do you have a job? and yes, any work experience, even if unrelated, is better than nothing

[low field]

Yes I have a job, but it's barely computer related.

[true harness]

anything that says you can show up on time and do what you're supposed to is good

[marsh mural]

I'm wanting to go back to college for programming but am unsure of what degree I need to pursue. I enjoy making discord bots, websites, desktop and phone applications. I enjoy UI/UX design as well. I don't want to fix printers for $17/hour all of my life. I would rather work for a company or start my own that deals with code. I enjoy writing code. Lol so what would be a good degree and good school to go after and attend? Thanks

[smoky quest]

Companies will mostly care whether you got a bs or not

[frosty tundra]

Have you seen some of the google certifications?

[marsh mural]

Not yet I haven't. I just started looking into all of this. Tbh if I can just get certs and avoid college, I'd rather do that

[smoky quest]

these aren't remotely equivalent

[marsh mural]

What I mean is if I don't have to go to college to make good money off programming then I don't want to.

As far as a bachellors is concerned, is it really that necessary?

[white relic]

In a word: yes.
It is not impossible to become a programmer without a degree, but your opportunities in the field will be severely limited and you will never make as much money as your less experienced (but more educated) colleagues.

Everybody wants a fun job making boatloads of money out of high school but there's market forces at work

the best way to make good money without higher education is to do skilled jobs that are dangerous

[spark cobalt]

They're dead end jobs anyways.

[spark cobalt]

Take it from me, someone who did get job right out of HS, it's a lot of fucking work, a lot of fucking luck, you're sacrificing 30 different things for 4 years of more time.

I was willing to take the sacrifice, but most people won't when they realize the cost.

Even day by day, I'm still learning non-CS related things just so I can catch up on things I'm missing from not going to college. It's a really heavy endeavor and responsibility you're putting on yourself. Most would quit early, or never quit and statistically probably never make it.

[marsh mural]

So go to tell is what yall are telling me lol ok so what would be the best degree for me to go after knowing where I'm enjoying the field the most?

I also enjoy Javascript and C# (just started learning that one)

[white relic]

I'd encourage you to make a list of options that are interesting to you, and see what's offered at the colleges you get into. CS is a good option but not the only way.

I program (mostly Python) as a major part of my job but it is not my job title and I am not in the software industry, so take that into consideration when evaluating advice

[cosmic jacinth]

Well, lookee here, if that isn't a conversation I can hijack for my own question!

Sort of stuck in a similar situation - Want to get into the whole software development thing (preferrably in something low-level that involves all the nasty details and a lot of hair-pulling), getting an education towards that, with the caveat chances are I won't be able to start until in ~9.5 months. Do I even bother trying to potentially find an alternative route in the meantime, or am I better off not even bothering, keeping my head down and messing around on my own projects until then?

[spark cobalt]

You can try gunning for an internship, but not doing a degree also closes a lot of doors, particularly and generally the bigger the company, the bigger having no degree becomes a barrier. (Still many barriers in smaller companies)

[cosmic jacinth]

degree would take quite the while tho - as much as 4y for vocational plus another 4 for a degree at least - but like you say, it would open quite a few doors

bit of a conundrum, 8 years or a degree

[spark cobalt]

I did no degree path particularly for the time. But imo that's the only pro in this path. You save some time, but you lose in nearly every other aspect.

[cosmic jacinth]

itd also depend on how much time exactly is saved - 6 months saved, not worth it, on the other extreme theres the timescale of decades

[spark cobalt]

Yep. There still is a lot of time needed to become hirable to begin with. Then another stretch of time presumably to find a company willing to take a risk on a non college degrees.

Well if you have decades of experience, degree or no degree probably isn't that big of a deal anymore. So there is a limitation on time loss.

[cosmic jacinth]

if it was only 2 or 3 years lost i'd probably go for the degree, but in this case it's 8-9 (or even maybe 10 if i end up going for a uni of pure sciences rather than an applied one)

[spark cobalt]

Is there a reason to why your education would take 8 years?

[cosmic jacinth]

because that's the standard here - you do an apprenticeship alongside vocational school for 4 years (for programming), then you can go to an applied uni, or you have the option of doing a 1 year inbetween course to a conventional one

[spark cobalt]

Ah I see European I assume?

[cosmic jacinth]

bingo

[spark cobalt]

In America so things are typically 4-6 years here 😅

I think there's way too many variables for me to offer insight. Depending on the market demand even down to just the culture of where you live, can drastically improve or disimprove your chances.

[cosmic jacinth]

well, i suppose i have 9.5 months to go before i can even start on the "formal" path, so maybe i should just try and see

[spark cobalt]

I would try for internship 100%. Sounds like you've been programming for a while.

[cosmic jacinth]

yes and no - technically i started doing some python back in 2012 - but that was mainly only screwing around with the turtle graphics module - and i guess i learned the basics of C then, and sort of did nothing with it

only really started taking it more seriously around 2020 during the first covid lockdown

[spark cobalt]

Ah I started programming heavily at COVID as well. Lot of free time

[cosmic jacinth]

it's never really been anything large or really earthshaking tho, mainly small projects to accomplish something else i wanted - right now i'm messing around with some very weird audio processing shenanigans that i could probably go on about for an hour so imma cut myself short

[spark cobalt]

I can't really say. I was talking to someone in Germany yesterday and it seemed like the entire market, culture and thought process of everything was completely opposite of what it was in America. Perhaps that is acceptable for where you're at, if there's low supply of developers but an ever so increasing amount of demand for them. Can't really say.

Worth giving a shot? Sure. Valuable experience for interviews, you get to touch a little bit and observe the market for where you're at.

[cosmic jacinth]

well, i live just south of there 😛

and even then, if i really want a job i could even try doing it in germany - language isnt an issue and through some other fortunate circumstances getting a work visa wouldnt be either

either way, i think i might just try - else itd end up being pretty boring in the meantime regardless

and ofc, thanks for the insights and it was quite nice chatting with you

[spark cobalt]

Np and gl

[strong iron]

hi

[vast rapids]

Well while searching around europe on linkedin I kinda see a lot of places wants a bachelor degree, not exactly cs ,but like they do generally want a bachelors (in science) . But then again after getting the first job I don't think they will care much about the degree from then on.

Was the currency difference not much I'd be soo happy to study there tho rather then where I am now

also being enrolled would make getting internships easier

[cosmic jacinth]

yeah the plan is to compensate for that lack of a degree by having something completed/having done an internship - 10 months to burn, might as well try

[near ocean]

Internships usually require you be enrolled somewhere or be a recent graduate

[vast rapids]

like when you get in the first position, degree starts to affect much less from then on

[vast rapids]

True, though there were some sort of trainings I think where they kinda teach you but not pay as much for wage over there in Germany*

[cosmic jacinth]

well, might as well try getting it then - not like i can do much otherwise until next august

[vast rapids]

from my experience my job market made it like engineering degree is almost a requirement. I finished an Associate degree, enrolled in Managment info sys which is a bachelors and still can't get an offer and I'm not even learning like useful stuff for getting a job. (though I'm enrolled to a distance learning uni for various reasons)

and tbh I also feel the pain as I also consider trying to get in exams again for enrolling to cs or engineering + studying for 4 years more..

[cosmic jacinth]

my plan at an attempt would be to do some relevant projects on my own/contribute to some - bit of a long shot, but i mean, it's not like i'm really losing time trying it

[vast rapids]

also like getting a stable job would be better then freelancing because of job stability btw (in the field)

[cosmic jacinth]

not freelancing - straightup just hobby projects to pass the time - and maybe see if those are marketable
(of course i'd make sure i actually go for something marketable from the outset, but it's no biggie if it goes nowhere)

[real oyster]

freelancing could get you some good experience

[cosmic jacinth]

where would one even start doing that

[real oyster]

I would recommend to start building in public

network based on that and then try and find opportunities

[cosmic jacinth]

"building in public" - so apparently that's a thing

[gritty rivet]

You can try Upwork.com. It's pretty competitive but you may find clients if you're willing to be cheap.

You can also contribute to open source projects on a voluntary basis https://github.com/MunGell/awesome-for-beginners

[cosmic jacinth]

i mean, getting anything for my shoddy code is progress, sooo

[mortal wedge]

To be fair though, there's a LOT of issues with upwork. We had a contractor who worked for us through upwork tell us just how bad it was for her business and how she had to leave the platform and would no longer be available.

[sturdy geyser]

guys how do i make this in tkinter?

[smoky quest]

Hi and welcome!
This is the wrong place for this question as it is not related to #career-advice . You should check out #❓｜how-to-get-help

[sturdy geyser]

Sorry

[hushed bramble]

What skills do I need to get a graduate job in data science? I have done some projects that have EDA and ML for my university. What else should I focus on?

Also I hear that LinkedIn is very important these days to get a job, I've got an account but don't have many connections, mainly my professors and classmates. Should I work on improving my linkedin profile?

I'm graduating next year and have already started panicking about landing a job lol

[peak halo]

to be clear, you're saying that you will have a masters in computer science? what country is this?

if you are pursuing a masters, will you have published by the time you graduate? in either case, have you done any internships related to your career interests?

[clear loom]

from the very little experience I have, LinkedIn seems to be best for mid-high level jobs, entry level? its a numbers game!

[fair vigil]

do you now how to use a python gue

[near ocean]

Yes but this isnt the channel to ask that #python-discussion #❓｜how-to-get-help

[small tinsel]

yo guys

[vapid jay]

does anyone wana join on a fun project ?

[peak halo]

@fair vigil @small tinsel @vapid jay this channel is for career discussion and advice, so please make sure that all your messages are about that. for general chatter, go to one of the three off-topic channels

[small tinsel]

okay thank you for clarifying

[vapid jay]

i though i should text that here but sorry ok

[true harness]

it's ok, but the difference between this and something like a leetcode screen is the time investment. this would take way longer than the <2 hours an automated screen would

[molten owl]

Hey, where can I find internships or just people to work with on data analytics projects? looking for a career switch and wanted to build a data analyst centered portfolio

[vapid jay]

How to fix

[near ocean]

If theyre gonna pay me to throw away weekend time on something like i would gladly take it tbh

But personally much rather do leetcode

[summer roost]

This type of interview has a bias towards wealthier people and people without families. People who can (literatively and figuratively) afford the time investment required to do well on the take-home project. If they pay for your time, that eliminates some (but not all) of the bias towards wealthier people, but it still does nothing to eliminate the bias towards people with large amounts of free time.

[languid zinc]

this is a problem in other fields such as acting

at least in my experience the solution has always been “deal with it”. We shouldn’t extend the problem

[balmy mural]

I'm talking with the software manager of a place I'm interviewing with on Monday and I'm also getting a takehome. I was already told it would take 2-3 hours (Will see if that's true or not). I think a takehome that's reasonable in its scope and the time you'd have to invest to complete it is good and removes most of that bias

[summer roost]

well, no type of interview is perfect. I'm not arguing that this type of interview should never be used, just that it's important for companies who use it to understand what types of candidates it has a preference for, so that they can try to mitigate those biases. Paying everyone who completes the interview for 3 hours of their time is a good mitigation measure, for instance - not perfect, since some people will still sink more than 3 hours in while others can't afford to, but it's certainly better than asking people to complete it for free.

[true harness]

i'm curious about the idea of paying people to do takehome assessments; i've never heard of this before. would you just be paid a certain amount if you turn it in?

[lapis wind]

I did it for my current job

they paid about $700/day for a 3 day task, so as long as it's reasonably well reimbursed for your time I quite like them.

[summer roost]

Yeah, there's some screening so to decide who to offer the test to, and everyone who does the test gets paid for some fixed number of hours at the hourly rate of the position.

[gilded valley]

Considering that the base case is Software Developers then either your pool of applicants are time rich (students) or have relatively high incomes (experienced developers).

I also think alternatives don't necessarily fix the bias, because anyone with more time to dedicate to interview prep will do better

Paying people seems really meh. I think the reason to do it is that it signals to the developer that you're not trying to profit off of their free labour - not because potential applicants can't afford the time

[floral ruin]

can anyone help me find a placement job for next year?

[true harness]

there's also the people that might be switching into software dev from another field, so they wouldn't be time rich since they need to work and maybe not actually rich. this is probably a pretty small fraction of the total applicant pool, but it does exist.

you're probably right that people in this situation probably also wouldn't have the time to prepare as much for something like a leetcode screen

[spark cobalt]

We can help you with strategies

[gilded valley]

Agree there are exceptions, but if you're applying for junior roles for the first time you need to have made yourself time to study, it is no different that you need to make yourself time to pass interviews . Asking for people who are already good software engineers is biased against people who couldn't find the time to learn how to be good software engineers, but that doesn't mean you take people who can't code.

The question is the extent to which the bias actually impacts the hiring and how effective potential mitigations are, in this case I think the bias is small and the mitigations ineffective - but there is strong upside to offering take home tests

[near ocean]

If theyre paying 700/day for a take home, how much do they pay full time lol

[delicate bane]

thats my question lol

[near ocean]

Could make it a side hustle to do take home tasks at that day rate

[delicate bane]

wonder if its like their rate for outside contractors or something

[summer roost]

some students are time rich, but not all. People working their way through college aren't necessarily time rich, and people going back to school are far less time rich than other people their age.

Some experienced developers have high incomes, but not all - some are currently unemployed, and some are underemployed.

[floral ruin]

yes that would help alot

i actually have no experience at all as i been a fulltime student

[summer roost]

if you're applying for junior roles for the first time you need to have made yourself time to study
And this is true, but isn't really relevant - once you've finished studying, a leetcode-like interview costs you around 1 hour - the marginal cost of another interview is low, because every interview is testing you on fundamentals you've already learned, so you don't need a separate study session for each. The marginal cost of take-home-test style interviews are much higher; each of them requires a pretty serious time investment and there's no way to amortize that investment across multiple interviews like there is with studying.

[summer roost]

But for what it's worth, I think that this is another good reason to pay people for doing those take-home projects.

[summer roost]

This is sort of tangential to the question that you asked, but as far as the general economics of paying candidates goes, remember that the alternative to this take-home test style interview is some senior engineer or two spending an hour or two asking you questions and watching you answer them. So the company is already paying multiple hours of senior engineer time for each interview that gets scheduled.

[gilded valley]

Agree about the marginal cost being lower, but I strongly disagree that once you've done your dsalg university course no other investment is required. If I wanted to get to the point where I could pass leetcode interviews again, I would need to spend between 20 and 100hrs practicing - and I already went above and beyond the bare minimum required for my bachelors a couple of years ago.

Leetcode interviews definitely demand a substantial time investment when you're starting to apply, but that time investment is useful for all interviews you might do until you get hired

[summer roost]

That sounds really strange to me. I've never practiced for leetcode style interviews, and I've passed many of them.

[near ocean]

I've always thought that interviewing is part of a senior's regular responsibilities so I'm not sure this holds
Besides, its a great experience for junior devs to sit on the interviewer's side, you get an idea of what your seniors look for in a candidate, you learn the interview trade yourself

[gilded valley]

I passed internship level ones with relative ease, questions I was breezing through in 10m take me an hour now, and the actual level expected would be higher

[summer roost]

I've always thought that interviewing is part of a senior's regular responsibilities so I'm not sure this holds
It is, but that's not the point. The point is that the company is paying that senior to do an interview, rather than paying them to do something else. The company is paying that money, and that money is not going towards product development or maintenance or anything. From the company's perspective, if they don't hire the candidate, several hours of senior engineer time were just totally wasted with nothing to show for them.

[near ocean]

Companies pay for a whole bunch of irrelevant shit, why is the hiring pipeline an issue? Isnt building a solid team part of product development?

[summer roost]

I think we're talking around each other. If the company has the choice between paying $1000 to a candidate for them to take a test, or paying $250 each to 4 senior developers for them to each spend an hour talking to the candidate, the end result for the company is the same.

in both cases, $1000 was spent, and the return on that $1000 is a hiring decision.

granted someone has to eventually review the test, so maybe to break even they could only give $800 to the candidate. But my point is that, from a point of view considering only economics, paying candidates to test can be as cost effective as paying seniors to interview.

[fair vigil]

😀

gown the colhttps://discord.gg/python

[dreamy shadow]

As someone in Data Science. I 100% rather have them give me a take home test with a specific test case, then have them ask me 3 different questions of statistics that will be never used.

[delicate bane]

i think i like project demos. for both parties

since on the interviewer side, you can get a gauge of what types of problems theyve worked on and ask further in that direction (since DS is such a broad field and its only increasing in scope apparently)

(to see if they actually built the project or if its just copy-paste. you can usually tell with a couple good questions)

[still solstice]

Does any firm or company uses python for networking? I mean socket programming kind of things?

[smoky quest]

I am sure there is at least one somewhere.
But nowadays, most stack will focus on something above an existing library (http, grpc, etc.). So working at such low level would exist, but be considered mostly niche.

[summer roost]

Someone still has to write those libraries, though. httpx or requests or Django or the like.

There's plenty of socket programming in Python - it's just that, whenever possible, people code to a higher level abstraction.

that goes for any language, though. There's no good reason to work directly with sockets if there's already a high quality library that serves your needs.

[still solstice]

for example ? refering to --------------> " There's no good reason to work directly with sockets if there's already a high quality library that serves your needs"

[summer roost]

I don't understand what you're asking. I named several examples of high quality libraries built on top of sockets.

[still solstice]

sorry I didn't understand. Okay so requests, djnago and others use python's socket module for making connections

[summer roost]

yes

[still solstice]

ok Thanks, I'm just new, and trying to steer my way into one specific area that I can excel and try to land a job for myself

[near ocean]

I dont think you should aim to be a super expert in a very specific narrow slice of programming for your first couple of jobs
Learn the basics of http, learn how to use a framework, build a project, digging too much into things often has diminishing returns

[spark cobalt]

Also just in general, I don't think it's wise to solidify what you want to do when you don't even know the range of this field yet. There's so many things you can do that you haven't been exposed to before that you could enjoy much more, just you haven't been exposed to it yet.

The time old idea of the more you know, the more you know of things you don't know.

[graceful mason]

My team has been using fastapi for quick and easy websocket implementations when writing test scripts

[spark cobalt]

I think one of the teams at my company does something similar, but I'm not part of said team

[buoyant seal]

We can add here Django channels which is for web sockets too. Their default example how to implement live chat

[vague citrus]

So recently participated a hackathon. We didn’t win but I learnt a whole new stuff. I was mainly in charge of the backend bit though and not front end. I know some of you may not agree with putting a hackathon you didn’t win in your resume, but it’s one of the very very few things that can showcase my project I guess?

Where should the hackathon? Under projects? If so, should I include the only technology I used? I haven’t done any front end bit of it, but the whole project, we used the MERN stack so should I still include React even though I didn’t use it?

[spark cobalt]

I would if you're unable to fill with anything better.

But I guess that goes with literally anything you put on your resume. Put it on, if there's anything better, replace it or add it.

[near ocean]

Participating alone is enough, it shows interest in the subject outside of getting paid to do it
If you have space, add it the cv

[spark cobalt]

Experience developing in a group in what I assume is a time limited situation is also good too

[slate bone]

Dead chat

[spark cobalt]

[slate bone]

Wsup?

[vague citrus]

@near ocean @spark cobalt Thank you for the reply!

[deft skiff]

anyone here with no degree and no work experience ? is it hard to find a job?

[peak halo]

it would be exceptionally difficult to find a job with no degree and no experience. the people who get jobs without a degree have some kind of experience.

[deft skiff]

you need to get hired to get experience, and you need experience to get hired? i see that it would be difficult indeed.

[peak halo]

that's the deadlock that education is intended to break.

[spark cobalt]

Yes.

Well I guess I have work experience since I'm working now. But no degree, graduated high school 5 months ago

[deft skiff]

it seems like it possible to get a job, but have to rely on luck or connections, i guess?

[deft skiff]

how did you get in the work?

[spark cobalt]

The job I have now didn't need connections. But yes, everything is luck. Not having a degree significantly increases your reliance on luck, but there are many ways past just a degree to minimize reliance on luck

[spark cobalt]

Applying to 4000 jobs. Got 10 responses total: 2 job offers, 2 (not including job offer ones) going through entire interview process, 6 didn't get past first rounds.

Applying a lot is an easy way to workaround luck.

But nonetheless, super easy for recruiters to toss out non degree people when they can easily get a degree person.

[true harness]

easy
4000 jobs

[deft skiff]

i see, so it doesnt really have to be relying on luck

[spark cobalt]

There's still a lot of luck

Tens of thousands of college grads searching for jobs. How to compete against them is an art in itself. There's nothing in it for someone to hire you when your bottom line is so much lower than a college degree.

[spark cobalt]

Takes less than 4 years

It's too late I'll give you a proper response tomorrow.

[gritty rivet]

Networking and a strong portfolio of personal projects. A bootcamp can help with both (but is no substitute for a degree).

If you can get by on a lower salary, IT operations (desktop support, help desk) is a lot easier to break into, and that experience can be relevant to becoming a developer or SWE down the road

[spark cobalt]

If you're in America, you're lucky that a shit ton of college grads blindly think they can get a job without projects or internship and just a degree.

[delicate bane]

interesting. did you guys hear about this

[spark cobalt]

Agreed except for bootcamps. I don't think bootcamps are beneficial for self learners.

[gritty rivet]

This has been the trend for a while, but having NYC on board is a big step forward

[delicate bane]

possibly will lead to a watershed moment? i remember previously, some jobs were like "colorado applicants need not apply" 💀

but you cant really reject NY, now can you? lol

[gritty rivet]

Why? It was exactly what I needed personally

[spark cobalt]

Have you talked to the recruiter that allowed you to break in if bootcamps were why?

And is it a bootcamp through a college or some other 3rd party?

Through a college I can understand. But bootcamp not from a college I firmly think is not the move.

Non college bootcamps have way too many issues. Apart from the scams, and unreasonable promises. Almost all of them focus on web development and many of the courses they provide barely scratch the surface. In actual context of interview, the bootcamp only helps with recruiter giving you opportunity to interview but the bootcamp itself won't matter past that, will end up being an issue of projects, which I think projects would be a better use of time. You don't really need a bootcamp to show that you can make a website, you need a website to show you can make a website.

[gritty rivet]

This is the wrong idea. My current employer never heard of my bootcamp so the name of it meant nothing to them. But I never would have never found my job without the connections I built through my bootcamp.

Bootcamps aren't substitutes for degrees. They are a tool for building your network and a good portfolio.

[spark cobalt]

Ah I moved to San Jose prior to finding a job and then built my network locally.

Networking I understand, but there's many alternatives. I was able to get a healthy stream of jobs that haven't hit the job market from networking through meetups.

[gritty rivet]

No, bootcamps associated with colleges are almost all scams run by Trilogy or similar outfits. They license the names of colleges to cover up poor programs

[spark cobalt]

I see. Never knew that.

Didn't research into college bootcamps cuz they were all mad fucking expensive

Thanks

[deft skiff]

should i consider doing free work down the road, for making connections and work experience

[spark cobalt]

15000 is mad expensive for networking, when in reality many developers are nice and want to help and you can get it for free.

But that's imo. Bootcamp connections are more relevant to your needs.

[spark cobalt]

Open source can be a way to make connections. But don't do free work.

I guess open source is free work in a way

[gritty rivet]

Yeah, $15k is common and not going to be worth it for a lot of people who think it's a get-rich-quick-scheme or will guarantee them a job. You could get a degree from WGU for much less then that.

My bootcamp was less than 10% that cost.

[gritty rivet]

Open source projects, hack-a-thons, freelance projects can all be ways to get experience. None of these are essential but they all can help

[spark cobalt]

Way too many people hearing people online that say they did minimal effort with huge return but it's just breeding grounds for scams

I like people doing shit without degree, but it's like when they have 0 plan and just want quick money it's just

Being extroverted helps a lot

[gritty rivet]

Yes, it's a problem. For everyone I know who launched a career from a bootcamp (I could name 10 of us easily, across 4 different bootcamps) I'm sure there are many who got scammed

[spark cobalt]

Can help a lot. Personally didn't do any.

[dry spindle]

Maybe this could provide some help too: https://talkpython.fm/episodes/show/71/soft-skills-the-software-developers-life-manual

I listened to this podcast episode the other day, it had some stuff in it that resonated with me. The interviewee gave some great stuff for maybe doing your own business, or getting into an existing company. With some creative things that are small enough steps that anybody should be able to accomplish them. He talks about referrals and "going in through the back door" rather than dropping your resume off at every company you can find.

It's about an hour, so maybe tune into it on your commute or when you're doing dishes or whatever works for you. Maybe that helps someone.

Education is still pretty essential, you're not going to get in without some sort of education/ability, but it's also about getting your experience/education noticed

[spark cobalt]

By the way is there a reason why you don't wanna do college? Personally I spent Junior/Senior of HS coding near full time. Junior year for me was COVID year, so I was able to do day and night coding. Took a lot of time for me (obviously many inefficiencies being a high schooler that's never studied in his life, could easily been pushed down to 10 months).

God tier HS grades

[deft skiff]

college is expensive, i cannot support it. i can support my internet and electricity bills tho, so i can go the self-taught route.

[spark cobalt]

Neglecting HS to code one of my best decisions in life (not saying anyone else should do the same. high risk games)

[spark cobalt]

Whatever debt you obtain will be easily paid off in this field though.

I've spent time to list pros and cons of doing self taught route. There's a million cons and the only pro that I see is more of the philosophical idea of saving time. You're able to live out your prime 20s to do the things many other people spent their time in a school and kick-starting their career doing.

By the time they solidify their careers, they're probably gonna have children (or at least I plan to have) for the next 20 years and by the time you're 50 you never pursued the dreams you could've pursued. Spent all your life living the life someone made for you.

Did this path to fuck around, travel the world, live a life I want. But whatever this is idealistic af

All this effort to dodge mid life crisis.

[gritty rivet]

WGU.edu is a popular option, you can go at your own pace and a lot of people zip through quickly. The quicker you finish the cheaper it is. I have no direct experience but have seen a lot of people recommend it

[spark cobalt]

Oo I've seen their ads quite a bit

[white relic]

Young people tend to not realize that lacking a degree can follow you through your whole career; it's not a hurdle you have to pass once and then doesn't matter like getting a good SAT score

[spark cobalt]

Yeah just that isn't my goal.

Why I think for 99.9% of people doing self learning route should heavily consider degree.

Only pro for me to do this path just founded by personal beliefs and what I wanna do

[white relic]

I affirm your personal decision, just thought it should be mentioned

[spark cobalt]

[white relic]

I have made my own suboptimal career choices and I'm happy with them. But I too walked in with eyes open

[spark cobalt]

Will have to wait and see if my choices end up stabbing me in the future. Pretty confident it won't since I'm not focused on programming career.

[white relic]

Me either 😄

[deft skiff]

if it only takes like 1 year to get a degree, maybe ill consider it. id rather do open source contributions, free work, and 10k job applications than college

[spark cobalt]

For me just so many things to discover and experience spending 4 years of time just for a minor aspect of it just hurts. Wanna do music, and travelling to hear music of all ages and places is something that those 4 years (and more) will be spent on

Just super happy I also love to program and able to make money off of that. But can't stop there, lot of I guess more human things to pursue

Able to do what I love for work, and able to live a life that I love is the dream

[white relic]

Too many people trying to minmax their careers

[spark cobalt]

Its just such a easy clickbait that it created this whole stigma in this industry. Like sure you don't need a degree to be in the industry but generally a lot deeper than that.

Too much focus on getting money quick. And just like many other bad decisions, they're typically founded with sacrificing the future for the now.

Like I watched some of the videos of these self taught programmers on YouTube and it was kinda painful. No one talks about the setbacks of not having a degree, just makes it so hard for anyone to reasonably make an informed decision. But alas, their entire channel is alive just because of their self taught programmer clickbaits.

So easy to spread good information. But alas, maybe working with computers too much took away the humanity in some people

[deft skiff]

which is why im looking for people who still dont have a job, experience, and degree as a self-taught programmer. they have important information not covered on those youtube clickbaits

[spark cobalt]

[deft skiff]

what you mentioned earlier was really good, so i thank you for that

[spark cobalt]

Many people that come here has no plan and it's like painful

Anywho, I need sleep.

[spark cobalt]

Self learning path is kinda special cuz everyone had their own special case to stray from the norm. Kinda fun and beautiful.

That being said, money isn't really a good reason to do self taught, cuz realistically you'll be making a lot of it anyways

[neon aurora]

I do think that a good alterantive are certified courses and some good portfolio projects , for those who dont have the financial or time resources to complete a traditional degree

[neon aurora]

On that topic, kind of random but I am thinking of taking 365 Data Science's ml coures, a friend just recommended me to them and I just found out they give unlimited access to all courses for 21 days. I will try and earn a certificate or at least complete projects to add to my portfolio., wish me luck guys . If any of you are interested here is a link https://365datascience.com/free-days-2022/

[gritty rivet]

These kinds of certificates don't mean much, but if a course helps you develop interesting projects then that's well worth the time spent

[hearty island]

how do I indicate an ongoing internship on my resume?

Aug 2022 - Present?

[gritty rivet]

Yes

[hearty island]

ty

[nocturne maple]

Hi, I am 14 and looking for part-time internships, but don't know where to look. Any suggestions.

I got Django, Flask, Selenium, Bs4, Frontend, NumPy, matplotlib, Pandas

[gritty rivet]

Unfortunately such internships don't exist. You can contribute to open source projects, but in most places it's not legal to hire someone so young, and part-time programming jobs are rare.

It's great that you have such skills at your age, I'm sure you'll do well when the time comes!

[sacred bough]

You can just go to any of the many Freelancing sites. Build up trust by starting to work for cheap.

[deft skiff]

wow 14 years old looking for work

[gritty rivet]

I think those sites have minimum age requirements too

But Upwork and Fiverr are the most popular if you want to check

[peak halo]

since it's so unlikely that you would be able to find paid work at your age, your time is best spent focusing on school so that you'll be a competitive applicant to a computer science program in a few years.

[deft skiff]

try to avoid doing anything illegal. do you really need money? just focus on honing your programming then be top pick by companies once you are 18 years old

[peak halo]

a fresh high school graduate with open source contributions probably still won't be a top pick for companies, but they would be a top pick for universities.

[deft skiff]

oh, in our country 18 is almost done in college

ours curriculum is pretty bad and high school diploma is totally worthless

[stone shore]

If you could allocate 6h a day to learn programming, would be 1 year, or less, just enough in order to have the skillset to land a job which could pay at least 20k a year? (EU zone).

area of interests are: automation, AI/ML, robotics, energy, security, blockchain.

[spark cobalt]

Depends on how those 5 hours are spent, what you're doing, your efficiency in programming, how fast you're able to learn etc.

[stone shore]

Yes many factors

[spark cobalt]

Should focus on goals. Ask yourself what you need to do to be hirable, set a time limit and commit to making sure you achieve it within that time.

Will be what you're going to do if you freelance especially.

Think about what kind of things specifically you want to offer as a freelancer. Then use this time to weigh and see how much time it takes to actually do it

In terms of full time job, why not go to college?

[gritty rivet]

Most freelancers have professional experience. If you're looking for an entry level SWE job at a startup I would say less than 2 years is not unreasonable here for many people in the US where I am. But to freelance directly? Maybe double that? I've never heard of anyone pulling it off with no professional experience

[spark cobalt]

Yeah just getting people to hire you when you have no professional experience dealing with security, cloud, etc. has its issues. You're simply just not aware of pitfalls

There's a lot depending on what you want to offer as a service.

The least involved services (SPAs, etc.)? How would you amass clients over the thousands of people doing the same thing?

The most involved services (full stack, etc.)? 5 months to be able to, from scratch, learn high level ideas like design and being fluent to the infinite ways you can make an app while understanding the drawbacks and potential positives of each ways is something not obtained in 5 months imo. There's just way too much to learn. A standard full stack application can easily be 5+ languages (including shit like HTML/CSS), and possibly way more depending on client needs. And this doesn't include the theories, ideas, etc. that you should have as well in terms of database/system design, yada yada

5 months would be beyond impressive no matter if you did 5 hours a day or 15.

[white moss]

@hallow escarp

[small tinsel]

• become a problem solver

[spark cobalt]

Yeah it's a lot of things I just don't know how to do that in 5 months

[small tinsel]

you can do everything !

[spark cobalt]

[true dune]

Has anyone in this server done the Python Institute PCEP and PCAP to get a job in industry?

[near ocean]

That'd be really uncommon, i cant imagine any employer giving weight to some random python certificate

[true dune]

So it's not a very widely used cert then, good to know. I'll just stick to the Oracle java associate cert instead

[spark cobalt]

I did. Don't think it contributed much to my job search. It's a really basic certificate either way.

[true dune]

Did you end up doing both or just the PCEP?

[spark cobalt]

I did both.

[near ocean]

Oracle, GCP, AWS, Azure, and other certs that come from the org the software comes from itself are much more valuable

[warped dust]

Without a degree does python on its own land you a job?

[true dune]

Good to know, I'm just trying to pad out the resume a bit as I'm coming to the end of my degree and want to build upon the knowledge I've gained throughout

[spark cobalt]

Very very unlikely.

Will likely need to learn some stack, not just a language.

[true dune]

If you can do projects that include front end and backend you could get a job but with python alone it'll be tough

[warped dust]

Along with 17 years in technology, mostly doing systems infrastructure management?

[stone shore]

Could studying "Automate the boring stuff with python" book give you the skills you need to get your first job?
If not, is that because of the book content, or just because any book won't provide enough knowledge to get you into your first job?

[warped dust]

Backend infrastructure and networking is not an issue for me.

[delicate bane]

why not apply and see what happens?

[spark cobalt]

@stone shore

You'll likely use the concepts in that book, and maybe use Python, but just a language is generally not enough.

[warped dust]

I’m just doing python right now to add to my resume

[stone shore]

understood, I am more into backend.
So how is it the better way to study "concepts"" instead of the "language"?

[spark cobalt]

Projects

[stone shore]

dym making projects?

[spark cobalt]

Yes

[warped dust]

I am building my github to show 100 days of code through the udemy course in my github. You think that would suffice?

[spark cobalt]

From the people that do interviews in here, seems like they don't look at Githubs

[warped dust]

Oh thats news to me.

[spark cobalt]

Still good to put everything to GitHub. But I can't really say how prevalent it is in increasing your chances at a job

My entire GH history

[white relic]

I looked at a github recently, for someone without a relevant degree, and we did end up hiring the person (part time, provisionally). But that was only after they had a great interview and one of my superiors raised concerns about their background

[spark cobalt]

It's good to be fluent with Git and GitHub since you'll likely use it on the job anyways

[white relic]

It wouldn't have been part of the regular procedure and it made no difference at all until after the interview.

[vapid jay]

How Do You Fix The Target Machine Not Refuse It

[spark cobalt]

Wrong place tbh

[vapid jay]

ik

[balmy spade]

From the few interviews I've helped perform where the applicant included their github I have to say we weren't all that interested in their activity there. We were more interested in the what and not the how-much.
Depending on the past experience I suppose seeing someone who was invested in the open-source community with activity in reviews and PRs would help bolster a lack of said experience.

It's all situational though.

[delicate bane]

we looked at the github of an intern candidate. it ended up getting him the position. but again this is after everything else tbh

[near ocean]

I look at the github of all candidates we get, but not sure our seniors bother