career-advice

[spark lintel]

How long did it take for you to get a job related to programming?

[summer roost]

At this point I'm pretty firmly stuck in the Unix world, I suppose - I'm unlikely to ever work professionally on Windows systems. I'm also pretty firmly stuck on backend - I'm unlikely to ever take a job that requires more than a tiny bit of frontend work (not just because that's not where my skills lie, but also because I don't find frontend work interesting or enjoyable)

[summer roost]

my first paid job was an internship after my freshman year of uni

or at least - that was the first job where I was hired to write software, though as I said, I had already done some automation of parts of an office job when I was still in high school

[spark lintel]

I faced a problem, where everything feels interesting to me, and i think i'm still getting no where, cause instead of learning one thing, I'm trying to grasp something from Python, JavaScript, C# etc. Different langauges, different technologies.

So.. @summer roost do you have any tips to avoid this? Cause I'm getting base knowleadge of basic things instead of something more intermediate.

Maybe the answer is simple, but searching though internet I'm getting so many infromation about these things, ones say "ooh that's bad", "ooh that's good" there's never one answer, and it makes me really confused

[summer roost]

do you have a computer science degree? Are you pursuing one? Do you have a job as a software developer?

[spark lintel]

Currently I'm a self-taught, in an IT school, where we "technically" learn about hardware, software and some full-stack but for those 3 years in school i wasn't able to learn anything.

We are doing some basic JavaScript and SQL things, which you can learn in one week

[spark lintel]

Also i haven't decided do i want to have cs degree, I've 2 years left to decide so there is a possibilty

[timber lagoon]

would you say you benefited from university @summer roost ?

I'm trying to weigh up the pro's and con's and how they apply to getting a job in today's world

On one hand, you're more attractive to employers and you gain connections and (possibly experience)
on the other hand, you come out with a mountain of student debt (which is hard with rising house prices/living costs etc), other people are 3-4 years ahead of you and now that most things are online, people can self teach themselves for cheap

[summer roost]

yes.

[peak halo]

CS degree holders usually aren't the ones who have to worry about their student debt. My first year's salary was more than the sum of all my student debt.

[vapid jay]

is a software degree required for a coding job, i have an mba and before this i did a degree in business administration?

im from india

[timber lagoon]

that's impressive, would you say that you got that job (or at least you were advantaged greatly in the selection process) because of your degree?

[peak halo]

the job that I have now is predicated directly on things that I did as an undergrad. there's no way in hell that I'd have it otherwise. but it's also a research and development job rather than a traditional software eng job.

[summer roost]

you come out with a mountain of student debt
Possibly - I assume you're in the US? CS programs are pretty similar at any university, so prefer a state school - it's likely to be much more affordable, especially with in-state tuition. Most people I know who graduated with CS degrees paid off their loans in around 5 years.

other people are 3-4 years ahead of you
People with degrees have a broader base to build on, and often advance faster in their career than those without. And it's common to hear of people without degrees who apply to literally hundreds of job openings before finding someone willing to take a chance on them, whereas that's often only dozens for degree holders entering industry. Also, don't discount the value of internships - look for a uni with a strong internship or co-op program, they pay massive dividends.

now that most things are online, people can self teach themselves for cheap
The knowledge has never been particularly gated. Software books have been on the internet for 20 years, and even before that you could get access to the materials by borrowing textbooks from a library. Many people struggle to learn effectively without a curated curriculum and resources like professors and TAs who they can turn to with questions.

[vapid jay]

guys, sorry for reposting im in a tough spot rn, wanted some guidance, if anyone can answer would be more than grateful, is a software degree required for a coding job, i have an mba and before this i did a degree in business administration?
im from india

[summer roost]

the answer to that question tends to be pretty country specific. In some countries it's relatively easy to transition into a coding job without a CS degree mid-career, and in others it's nearly impossible because they culturally place much higher value on credentials. I don't know the answer for India.

[peak halo]

unfortunately, our server doesn't have very many working professionals from India who might be able to answer based on their experience.

[timber lagoon]

I assume you're in the US?
fair assumption but I'm in the UK. I'm sure you've heard how bad things are here currently 😄

look for a uni with a strong internship or co-op program
good point, the uni's that im considering all have a [paid?] year in industry, hopefully that offers value experience that employers like

I more meant things are online now because of covid (some universities have switched to online lessons and all the resources are online), there are also a lot more resources online now because of lockdown etc

[near ocean]

There's no lockdowns anymore and i'd be surprised if unis still have regulations going

[timber lagoon]

but its a good point about having the lecturers "on hand" to ask questions to

[vapid jay]

ok thankyou for responding i will look into it

[vapid jay]

noted man, thanks a lot for responding i will do some rnd

[timber lagoon]

i didnt say that, i said because of the lockdowns, universities have embraced the online approach and have released many resources online for people to look at

I dont want to go to university only to find out that they point you to a website for 4 years

[near ocean]

You want to go to uni because that paper you get at the end opens a heck of a lot more doors than you think, especially in the UK
Is that your only concern?

[summer roost]

fair assumption but I'm in the UK. I'm sure you've heard how bad things are here currently 😄
In terms of student loan debt, much, much less bad than the US. In terms of other CoL considerations, you're doing worse at the moment, though. And software jobs in the UK tend to pay significantly less than in the US. Still, my impression is that software developers in the UK don't have much trouble paying off their student loans quickly.

the uni's that im considering all have a [paid?] year in industry
Almost certainly paid, yes. Unpaid internships in software are quite rare in the US (where I'm from), and I believe the story is the same in the UK.

hopefully that offers value experience that employers like
It does, and it offers experience that you can leverage to figure out what it's like working on software as part of a team maintaining an existing code base, and it lets you figure out what types of development and work environments you do and don't enjoy. All of that is very valuable.

I more meant things are online now because of covid
Including internships, actually - remote internships were virtually unheard of before the last 2 years.

[peak halo]

I see what you mean. But keep in mind that basically all learning is self-learning. The value that you're getting from attending a university is that the order in which the information is presented, and the pace at which you're expected to learn it, is deliberate. And, more importantly, you get a certificate at the end that says that experts in the field (your professors) agree that you have learned the material to an agreed-upon standard.

[timber lagoon]

No, I want to value my university experience which is why im concerned about the online approach. I'm also trying to understand what university offers you that isn't the "paper you get at the end". Going to uni for the paper seems pointless and you'd probably get a lot less out of it then you could.

[near ocean]

Im not sure i understand this particular criticism tbh, what do you think working in the industry is anyway? You're looking at things online because thats where information is nowadays
I could get worrying about cost, length of the degree, etc but not this

[summer roost]

I'm also trying to understand what university offers you that isn't the "paper you get at the end"

• Resources (TAs, professors, career counselors)
• Curation (what material is taught, in what order and at what pace)
• Extrinsic motivators (people work harder when they have something to lose, so grades and tests help you learn better)
• Opportunities (teaching assistant positions, internships, career fairs)

• Community (other people learning the same stuff as you who you can discuss the material with, clubs and campus organizations, etc)

also, that community will form your initial professional network - you'll find out who is working where, and whether they like it, and whether they're being paid well. You'll get job opportunities through classmates.

[timber lagoon]

I can understand that, your paying for a teacher/tutor that keeps you progressing and helping you in the areas where you struggle which can be invaluable as well as the course content

[gilded valley]

Student debt in the UK isn't really like any other kind of debt. It's more like a 40year long tax which there's a possibility of exiting from early. It's a much lower relative cost than the headline costs of US universities.

I would strongly suggest you don't go to a mediocre university, if you can get the grades, go to a Russel group university

[timber lagoon]

What don't you understand? I'm not interested in university solely because of the certificate at the end, I want to make use of everything they offer (societies, clubs, events, connections etc). I'm currently trying to calculate the benefit-cost ratio of university.

[timber lagoon]

the grades aren't a problem (except maybe for Manchester which is 3 A*'s (more then oxbridge)). The problem is the cost and paying of the student loans at the end.

[gilded valley]

They are not loans. There are no student loans in the UK except for Masters

In the worst case, it is a marginal tax that you pay til you retire

[near ocean]

The paper alone justifies going to university, everything else is just extra
If youre considering not going to uni youre just making it harder on yourself for no reason

The question shouldnt be "should I go to uni" it should be "why shouldnt I go to uni"

[timber lagoon]

They are loans, it's just that you pay them back as tax. I'm worried about the current (dismal looking) financial status of england and wondering if I can afford that tax.

[gilded valley]

They are not really modelled like loans at all, they are a graduate tax in all but name. 9% of your income above £20,000 will not be the make or break difference in whether or not you can afford to live

[near ocean]

Its 30k

[gilded valley]

no - not anymore, it is changing for people going to university in 2023 onwards

[timber lagoon]

If you're going to university just for the paper, you're wasting the opportunity!

[near ocean]

Oh, sad still not that much, you can definitely afford it and you shouldnt be starting at 20k regardless

[gilded valley]

yeah, absolutely

[near ocean]

I didnt say that, obviously you should take advantage of everything it offers, but that paper alone justifies going

[timber lagoon]

that was my original question, do employers value it enough that it's worth the cost. you're saying yes so let me change my question to "how would you make the most out of university"?

[gilded valley]

Forgot to mention this - but this isn't relevant to the quality of the university, all universities cost the same. You should definitely go to e.g Edinburgh rather than Northampton if you go to university at all

[timber lagoon]

oh no doubt! I have a list of potentials that excel in computer science (manchester included). I wouldn't select a uni because of it's desired grades or if its in the russel group.

[gilded valley]

I also don't really think open days are a great basis for selecting a university - how good they are at selling themsleves is fairly irrelevant

[near ocean]

I think you should gove russel group unis more weight in your decision
Easy way into job right out of uni and also higher paying

[timber lagoon]

I thought it was/is a good opportunity to explore the campus and city life. You can experience the quality of lectures and also look at the facilities they have to offer. Overall it seems like an excellent opportunity for ranking the universities.

[timber lagoon]

They aren't... "weightless" I suppose since they get more funding, I was more saying you shouldn't discount a university because it's not in the group right? (if you look at the ratio of results at the end and job prospects etc)

[gilded valley]

You can't experience the quality of lectures, you can experience the quality of the lectures the university uses to sell themselves - it is by no means a guarantee that you won't be palmed off onto bored PHD students for actual lectures. As for the facilities the university has to offer, this often ends up being them showing off a couple of labs with dual monitors - which is not a particularly good basis for picking a university - city life matters, but city life is pretty decent for students in every major city. If you're looking at somewhere like St. Andrews, it definitely makes sense to go and see if you can bear living in the middle of nowhere, but most universities are just pretty much fine

[timber lagoon]

I see your point's but there's no harm in going up to look to make sure it meets expectations. The only downside is the long drive 😄. I'd rather go and discount a university based on what I see then have it in my pool of potential choices.

[gilded valley]

sure - there's no reason not to go - but ultimately the data you can find about the university like the quality of teaching, the graduate outcomes, the student satisfaction, i.e the things that go into university rankings, matter far more than the vibe you get from spending a day with people who are trying to sell you on the university

[dense mesa]

@timber lagoon uni in the UK would be worth it, if not for the network alone

[gilded valley]

It depends on the university. As a general rule of thumb, specialist degrees don't open any more doors than non-specialist ones, but they do give you a less generalisable skillset

[obtuse spade]

Py

Where help channels for coding so I can help them

[gilded valley]

#❓｜how-to-get-help

[obtuse spade]

I don't need help I know the coding language already but where the dev channels

[gilded valley]

I have no idea what you're asking. But this clearly isn't the correct channel. Ask in #python-discussion

I'm not sure how much the course matters honestly, but the entry requirements are very different. I don't have any advice, but a degree from Warwick will be valuable regardless of the title

[timber lagoon]

sounds like what i want to do, warwick is on the list

yes, second year

[gilded valley]

Yeah, I looked them up. 3xA* Vs AAB is a huge difference

[timber lagoon]

nice grades

[gilded valley]

What I said earlier seems to hold true. Cyber Sec is more specialist and less generalisable, which seems undesirable - but it's not like it's worthless. Seems like a difficult choice

[timber lagoon]

look into the GCHQ grant @glacial pendant 😉

[gilded valley]

You don't know you want to go into cyber security for sure, exposure to more things is not unlikely to change your outlook. I don't think many places at all value cyber security degrees more highly than CS degrees - even for cyber sec roles - and certainly a lot of places would value them less

[timber lagoon]

https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/cyberfirst/bursary-and-degree-apprenticeship

[shadow moss]

Yea, you might change your mind after a few years. Get the generalist degree.

[shadow moss]

Because Cyber Security is mostly paper pushing. Yes Honorable Jr Auditor of His Majesty Treasury, we do comply with Security Policy laid out in Section 432 of Public Company Code. See, here is my evidence. These slight failures are mitigated with there other methods, everything is good to go. Please stamp our form and be on your way.

[lapis wind]

From people who have definitely not worked for the government in cyber security, I have yet to hear any be positive when compared to literally any private cyber sec firm

As my 2 cents, would probably avoid government apprenticeships (government as in government department rather than government backed) and look for private ones instead

Not sure why charlie is giving that the down vote unless you've heard differently

[ivory sluice]

yeah those reactions add very little value. have anything to say otherwise?

[gilded valley]

The value I have is that I know several people with the exact opposite experience, government apprenticeships have been great for them.

That amounts to me saying "I disagree", which the downvote reactions convey.

[lapis wind]

That's fine but it's better if you actually say that 😅 this isn't reddit

[buoyant seal]

In my origin country... and in second country as well. Well.... and in multiple countries in the world...
...government jobs are always really poor paying and no chances for pay raise, legacy ancient as mamonts, beraucratic hell, lower than lowest in skills people are usual

[lapis wind]

I'm in the same perspective as knowing several people who are doing or who have recently finished their apprenticeships, some of whom may or may not have done it with a certain UK cyber sec department.

The cyber sec specific ones, had nothing good to say about them other than they got a degree, non of them expressed interest in staying with them after.

When compared with the private ones, the differences tend to align to:

• better pay.
• more benifits
• better environment

[lapis wind]

My first year as an apprentice I was making more than some of them at the end of their apprenticeship 😅

[shadow moss]

Cyber security is pretty much paper pushing government or not. Because almost no company cares about cyber security

[gilded valley]

With a degree apprenticeship, you get a degree from a good university, get paid a salary far far above the minimum wage for apprentices for 4 years, and are not beholden to stay after that. It's just patently ridiculous to suggest that it's better pay without giving a comparison point. I can find countless terrible apprenticeships that are far worse.

[buoyant seal]

same. same. i had the most cheap developer job salary as junior entry in third world country. just 400$ per month. It was twice more than my previous job as sys admin in government sponsored university for 4 years 🙂

[lapis wind]

Yes I agree you can absolutely find worse ones out there. They're not bad per say, but there are a lot of better ones out there.

[shadow moss]

Government rarely pays better then private. Work in cyber security is rarely different

[gilded valley]

The specific point is government training programs, the government in the UK pays you a decent salary for 4 years after which you finish with a degree. They have multiple paid summer schools and internships that look good on your resume.

I am not arguing about a long-term career in the civil service

[lapis wind]

The same goes for private companies though? Often with better additional benifits.

Yes there are worse ones, but what I'm saying is especially in cyber sec which seems to be known for being worse in gov than private, to try get a better private one.

[gilded valley]

I have never heard of a private company running a paid summer school, no. Yes, other companies offer internships, but your argument is that you should avoid the government

[gilded valley]

known for being worse in gov than private
known for by whom?

[buoyant seal]

As best job in terms of training programs, i can actually recommend startups. They are the best if u are lucky. U get ownership of building systems from zero in environment were zero or small amount of developers. U go through setting up stuff from zero to scaling it. So no need for training programs. Your working process is a training 40 hours per week at least xD

[gilded valley]

The opposite advice has been given in this channel before. Either way, a startup is not explicitly offering to give you high quality training 8 hours a day 5 days a week with a bunch of other smart and motivated people also participating in the training

[lapis wind]

No where am I talking about paid summer school, I'm not sure how that's relevant for an apprenticeship because you're already employed like anyone else, this isn't the same as a uni course where people have summers off.

[gilded valley]

also startups very rarely offer any form of internship, and never offer degree apprenticeships

[buoyant seal]

Well, i say that this works at least if u a in charge of making software architect design choices. Due to lack of people who do it, u can be often lucky to have it. Especially works great if u choose technologies too. Best training ever. Senior level duties right from a start xD

[gilded valley]

If you follow the thread you replied to, you can see I mentioned the training programs to Darkwind

[ivory sluice]

you said "the same goes for private companies" so that's what ☕ is disputing, i think

[lapis wind]

To clarify I'm talking only about apprenticeships 😅 I have no opinion or knowledge of summer camps for uni students other than the boot camp my old employer ran

[gilded valley]

For specifically degree apprenticeships, almost every apprenticeship I've seen from the private sector pays at most 18kpa, which is less than civil service degree apprenticeships I've seen - and there aren't many degree apprenticeships at all in the private sector

[lapis wind]

You're right there are less or at least less level 6+ apprenticeships in private.

[gilded valley]

I agree - personally I'm a fan of jumping in at the deep end as a method of learning, it's just not something that is universally accepted.

[lapis wind]

On the topic of startups and that, they're great for learning providing it's the right thing for you. But it's worth being aware of how stable the startup is and what phase they are at.

Fresh out of A levels you might have a bad time if the company suddenly died in a years time

[buoyant seal]

if startup is screwed u a not. The worst u can get a need to seek new job (free vacation) between jobs. It could be bad for fresh graduates though due to lack of resume to get next job easily though
But at the same time startup gives best possible learning. One year in startup can serve for two-three years in normal environment ;b
U a doing not a small corner in slow temped development of big thing. U a diving into deep and setting stuff from zero ;b

[lapis wind]

I think you can still get that with a more established company though, if they're a software house or similar then you can still have a lot of variety.

That was my first company and they were great for learning because it was a new project on a different tech stack about every six months. Although from that I learnt that I really really hate C#

[buoyant seal]

I have a wish to join startup as some next job perhaps. U can have much greater impact in them in a quick time reached

at big company you have no chances to make your career quick
in startup, half of a year / a year can be everything

[lapis wind]

just write a Blockchain lmao

[near ocean]

Thats not true lol, a position in a big company basically sets your career up

Its why people aim to join faang really early on, because from then on its easy mode

[buoyant seal]

i am slightly discouraged that Blockchain tech is learned by frontend devs xD looks sus to me. And all the hype with web3.0, and what was that? the bored apps stuff.
And Blockchain is not really reusable domain learned anyway. I will prefer learning more generic reusable skills ;b

[buoyant seal]

Well. that's too, true.

[lapis wind]

It's a balance of actually being exposed to new things and name recognition

[buoyant seal]

I believe i own my self education enough to make through it on my own. Also... the only thing that really matters is getting relevant practice to your skills besides theoretical education. I think it is easier to get it in startups than big companies perhaps. Building stuff from zero and scaling as i mentioned.

[near ocean]

Just because you have more freedom to do things and a wider range of responsibilities doesnt mean you'll get to learn anything
Its up to the individual to do that, whether youre in a small company or a large one

[buoyant seal]

Surely it does not. Ergh. I believe i will be able. Because i was able to find clear roadmaps (multiple ones leading throughly to final goal i wish to reach in terms of technical education at least).

[near ocean]

That sounds like something you did and not something a startup provided, which is what i'm saying

[buoyant seal]

Mm yeah. But u know... regardless at which company u are. Self education is only your responsibility. Companies aren't responsible for that. At best they make environment encouraging it in some way. But no amount of environment will help person who is no willing to self educate. Learning stuff purely from practice encountered at work has its certain limits (and even that needs to be handled in a right way to get the most out of it in terms of learning)

[delicate bane]

yeah startup environment not for everyone. they def dont have time to handhold you. but it could be good exp depending your personality

[kindred lion]

I have made several programs over the years within multiple it support roles (e.g. made a library that the entire team used to connect to firewalls/switches) and have been looking to move towards a more development focused role. I understand the basics of python and oop, but nothing related to the math side of it (anything related to math). What would the best route be to get into the dev field and what type of concepts would be most important to learn/explain for interviews?

[spark zinc]

interviewre: code this in O(n)
me:

[azure cobalt]

please let me do vc

[smoky quest]

Hi!
This has nothing to do with #career-advice . You may want to check #❓｜how-to-get-help

[flint sleet]

Just say 'hashmap' somewhere and you'll probably be ok

[random lark]

Aren't hashmaps just dictionaries in python?

[flint sleet]

i think so

[gritty rivet]

It's kind of impossible to answer this in a general way. Look for entry-level job listings in your country to see what skills you might need to work on. Given that it sounds like you have network and maybe other relevant IT experience, you may find certain jobs that are a better fit than others based on that

If you have relevant projects on your resume, start applying. You probably want to practice "easy" level problems on LeetCode as this is a pretty standard part of the interview process in a lot of places. And you can check https://roadmaps.sh for more ideas to work on but honestly you don't necessarily have to master any of those maps to be job ready

[empty cloak]

will someone work with me for creating opensource automation

[digital fjord]

Please dont post referral links

[random lark]

I am interested , I have never done automation tho

[peak halo]

I think it's widely agreed that objective statements in resumes aren't helpful, but I think a potential exception is the resumes for university students at career fairs. Each employer at the fair may have more than one "employment modality" available (internship, co-op, full-time after graduation), and they would want to know which students are available for which. what do we think?

[near ocean]

I generally agree that its useless but a couple recruiters I talked to suggested I add an objective statement on my CV along with other details like visa status and address

[woeful spruce]

Visa status? Is it legal for them to ask that?

[peak halo]

well, they can't hire you if you're not legally eligible for employment.

[woeful spruce]

I know that, but that is typically an interview question to ask if they can legally work. Asking visa status where I live and you don't have to share that info unless you want to.

[delicate bane]

think it also differs by jurisdiction so keep that in mind

[vapid jay]

Yo

How do i get perms to speak in vc

[peak halo]

see #voice-verification

[true harness]

in the us, I've seen it on pretty much every job application. something along the lines of "can you work in the US", or "do you need visa sponsorship" wasting resources to interview someone just to find out they can't work seems unreasonable

[woeful spruce]

Yup. Again, I know you should ask that, but who puts that type of info on their resume?

[true harness]

¯_(ツ)_/¯ he said CV, which probably implies a more extensive document, so idk

[hardy ocean]

yo if i only knew django CRUD is it possible to land a job?
and maybe learn more through that job?

[peak halo]

I would look for job listings that explicitly mention django development, and see what other abilities they want applicants for those positions to have.

[shadow moss]

In US, it’s legal to discriminate based on if you need a business provided visa to work. However, it’s not legal to discriminate on your basis of authorization to work. Exception is government can limit to citizens only.

[shadow moss]

It’s possible but highly unlikely.

[smoky quest]

Because there is a huge difference between a green card, a h1b or other type of visas in the USA. So it can help avoid some confusion

[smoky quest]

There are no issues not hiring specific visa holders. It's done all the time.

[shadow moss]

If business has to worry about your visa, they can refuse. It’s illegal under US law to discriminate between US citizen vs Green card holder vs someone admitted as spouse vs refugee with work authorization. Exception being US government work.

[hardy ocean]

@peak halo@shadow moss
how about this

do you think they just hire programmer which knows how to program and theyll just train them according to what they need?

what?

what is stupid?

you mean this python server?

[peak halo]

You haven't participated in this server legitimately, so if you only want to post spam and ads, please leave before you get banned.

[smoky quest]

oh that front yes.

<@&831776746206265384> spam

[peak halo]

!mute 1004842865987420171

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @vapid jay until <t:1664824372:f> (1 hour).

[peak halo]

I'm already here 😛

[peak halo]

well, there's nothing here about django. it looks like they want new graduates, but you can always apply.

[hardy ocean]

but the position says its junior web developer
i just dont understand how it works i just keep applying to jobs i think i want and then ill just figure it out during the application process if im qualified to the role?

btw is it normal to struggle on doing some task because you dont know how to do it so you need some searches vids or readables?

[peak halo]

you can always apply. if they don't think you're qualified, they'll either send you a rejection notice or won't ever respond. they won't even interview you if they think you obviously aren't qualified.

[smoky quest]

It's like a cost. The further you are from the reqs, the less likely you would be a good match.
On their side, they can't know in advance who will apply. So the only thing they can do is put forth what their ideal candidate would be for the role, knowing that it's just an ideal.

[hardy ocean]

oh so maybe that image i sent is like they put a very general requirements and just determine the real deal during interviews or such?

[smoky quest]

it depends.
You could look at some career ladders to get a clearer sense of the expectations:

• https://dropbox.github.io/dbx-career-framework/overview.html
• https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/131XZCEb8LoXqy79WWrhCX4sBnGhCM1nAIz4feFZJsEo/edit#gid=0

[hardy ocean]

associate is like junior right?

[smoky quest]

correct

[hardy ocean]

is it ok to ask during interview like what specifics tasks i would do or such questions?

or its inappropriate?

[smoky quest]

These are great questions to ask. You are interviewing them as much as they are interviewing you

[hardy ocean]

oh i see im getting some insights now
tysm @smoky quest@peak halo

oh wait
do you have any ideal project that i can build on django to say like i somewhat know django but not on a master/expert level

[gray sky]

Guys is maybe a model auxiliary verb?

[gritty rivet]

Seems like this would be a better question for an off topic channel

[gritty rivet]

Lots of good ideas here: https://www.upgrad.com/blog/django-project-ideas-topics-beginners/

It doesn't matter so much what you do, but do it well and document

[smoky quest]

Any project that could demonstrate some of the skills on https://roadmap.sh/backend
Interviewers care about demonstrated skills, not the nature of the project. So pick something interesting to you. It could be as boring as a fancy ecommerce backend 🙂

[delicate bane]

p.s. - if its interesting to you, you are more likely to complete said project

[delicate bane]

oh i know peeps were talking about startups the other day. this just came out from LI (so take it with a grain of salt)

[dawn leaf]

SF #10??

[shadow moss]

Not shocked. A lot of startups are avoiding San Frans due to costs.

[ivory sluice]

california has a lot of regulations and taxes

[summer roost]

And housing costs that make it tough to gamble on a startup instead of a higher paying job at an established tech company

And greater competition for talent than most locations

[gritty rivet]

I feel like a large enough share of startups these days are 100% remote so that list is more about where skilled developers live more than any business consideration. That list claims to be where startups are hiring, not where they have offices.

[delicate bane]

the link wheres its from:
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/heres-where-top-startups-hiring-other-happenings-world-taylor-borden

[humble knot]

They call Seattle the valley of Data now I see why !

I really need a job, I have time to prepare for a Python job specifically related to data science. Any ideas how I go about doing that ? I have almost 2 months to prepare.

[summer roost]

What experience do you have? What background do you have? Why does it have to be specifically related to data science, or Python?

[peak halo]

if you don't currently have any data science-related credentials, there's nothing you can do in two months to become eligible for one.

[humble knot]

I have an year of experience with Python programming and a bit of SQL my last company shut down tbh this year start, have been finding it difficult to get through coding rounds in interview.

[humble knot]

I do though last job was related to DS but interviews rn are so much tougher. I need interview prep help.

[summer roost]

have been finding it difficult to get through coding rounds in interview.
Why? What has the struggle been?

does that mean you've been succeeding at getting interviews, but getting turned down after the coding round?

[humble knot]

Yeye weird af questions all like, code a binary search tree, solving some sort of dsa leetcode typa questions.

Out of 5 I barely am able to solve 1.

[summer roost]

Have you ever taken a data structures and algorithms class?

https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Algorithms-3rd-MIT-Press/dp/0262033844 might be helpful for you.

[true harness]

along with it, mit ocw 6.006

[summer roost]

two months is enough time to take a data structures/algorithms course, and you will find yourself much more able to complete that sort of problem after taking that course.

[true harness]

if you work quickly, that is. also, is there an explanation for the 2 month restriction? seems arbitrary, but i'm guessing there's some context missing

[quasi fern]

Hello guys, is there any html/css programmer here? I could use some help with how a CV for this should look like.

[humble knot]

During college i did yes but don't remember any of it

[humble knot]

Yes I'll check it out

[humble knot]

Will check that too bt what about solving the coding questions how do I do that I find em very complex.

[humble knot]

Ooooo i see

[humble knot]

It's like I have a project ongoing in which I'm earning but after two months it ends and I only have free time rn during this project since I'm well versed. So I have to prep rn and get a job by then to sustain.

[true harness]

generally, not being able to solve algorithmic problems comes down to
a) not practicing enough
b) not knowing the ds or a involved
doing the course, psets, and studying solves both those problems

[humble knot]

In my case ig both a and b. I never thought of studying for a job per se, always did manage to get job just by doing normal work stuff i usually do. Rn it's like compulsory to have a few coding rounds anywhere I'm applying.

[true harness]

what do you have so far? what country is this? what kind of jobs are you looking for?

[quasi fern]

i am very noob so, web development but only html and css so far, country macedonia, and i have like 2 working on the 3rd certification from the web tutorial i am learning from, but i am not sure how to implement the certifications in the CV, like do i leave links or how does that go... i am a bit lost on that part

this is a cv of some form and kind i found online so i am currently filling it up, but that part with certfications is a bit confusing for me.

[summer roost]

why does it surprise you that everyone wants to see you write some code before hiring you for a position that requires you to write code?

[summer roost]

You can just list the names of the certifications and the date you received them.

(year or year+month, not year+month+day)

[ivory sluice]

Bosses are using surveillance technology, from keystroke tracking to mouse movement monitoring, to make sure their employees are actually working while remote. According to Gartner, the number of employers who use this tech has doubled since the outset of the pandemic thanks to “productivity paranoia.”

that's so yucky. i know my employer was previously considering going this route.

[humble knot]

It doesn't, except they aren't asking me to write some code. I'd be more than happy to do and showcase a mini project of their choice or walk through my own code from previous projects. Kinds weird that stuff i would never use is kind of a "syllabus" that I got to prepare for months or more to get a job. Time that I could spend on productive work tbh.

[humble knot]

Stuff of horror tbh

We are just lab rats at this point

[true harness]

we need a pin for "why do i need DSA"

[summer roost]

I'm a bit surprised that they're asking DS&A questions for data science jobs - I expect those for software engineering jobs, though I'm not super familiar with data science. It's more common to ask DS&A questions in an interview than to give you a take-home project because they're less time consuming (for everyone involved) and easier to judge/grade.

[peak halo]

I was never asked a DSA question, and I only ever applied to data science positions.

[smoky quest]

It doesn't take months to prepare for it. These are about demonstrated skills that would be used in jobs.
Furthermore these are problems packaged in the simplest ways that do not require too much context. So that's why it may sound a bit abstract sometimes.
Asking to go through your projects would imply:

• Your projects would still have to demonstrate the same skills
• Candidates are required to spend a non-trivial amount of additional work outside of their work hours for their portfolios

[delicate bane]

yeah its awful. my cousin told me they were considering this at his company. dunno if they actually went through with it

[humble knot]

Yeah bruh fr even idek why it has changed excessive number of rounds too like 5 - 6 rounds all very rigorous. A lot of time just goes into that itself.

[humble knot]

Same with my last job and last to last job. This year idk what happened.

[delicate bane]

i was asked some but probably not nearly as many as a traditional SW dev job would entail

[summer roost]

how far through the process are you making it?

[humble knot]

Hopefully not I only got 2 months and that too half a day or less free else I'm gonna have a heart attack when the bills come in floodin year end. Lol.

[delicate bane]

and honestly its probably bc the field is only getting more competitive i believe. like my friend was straight up told from more than a few companies they couldnt accept him since he didnt have a graduate degree

granted, this was for DS/ML positions

[humble knot]

Aptitude round ez pz,. SQL round ez pz, the coding questions round I get out mostly.

[humble knot]

Yeah now that I think about it maybe it's this way also cause many engineers are now transitioning to DS roles so maybe that's why now it will suck hard for us

[delicate bane]

oh im fortunate i have a DS role atm. just got it recently tbh lol

i graduated in the summer

[humble knot]

Happy for u 😅

[delicate bane]

thanks bud. honestly its more bc of my domain experience than anything

[humble knot]

U got strong stats background too eh that's the case for me.

[delicate bane]

they let me build some things occasionally and thats okay with me

(would rather do that than statistical analyses that may or may not get looked at tbh)

for example, one upcoming project i get to work with one of the platform teams to explore the feasibility of offering a search service, specifically semantic search

[delicate bane]

but yeah you arent only competing with engineers but others who have domain experience in that specific industry (aka like me)

[summer roost]

well, like I said, DS is not my area, but - if you're consistently getting interviews, it suggests that your resume is attractive. If you're consistently failing out of a coding round, it suggests that you're failing to demonstrate some skill that the employers are placing value on. If you're frequently getting stumped by algorithms questions, brushing up on your algorithms knowledge seems like it would be a good use of your limited time. And in the meantime, continue applying to places.

[delicate bane]

yeah it sounds like youre close and just need to put in some elbow grease for a bit

i also think youre kinda unlucky only getting interviews with multiple coding rounds

so maybe expand your job search more?

[summer roost]

it could also be that the places you're applying to (or the ones that you're getting interviews with?) are ones where the job of a data scientist involves some amount of algorithms knowledge. I've heard that "data scientist" is a job title that can have very different responsibilities at different companies.

[humble knot]

Yeah my bruh ofcourse i mean if that's what it takes i am more than willing to put in effort and learn DSA and do the problems. Meantime i'mma put a hold on cause i did apply to some good places i thought I would but applying without coding prep backfired. I mean I should atleast be able to solve 3/5 problems. Hope some interview goes where its stuff i know how to code quick enough and get results.

[humble knot]

Yeah more or less it's a term often used with MLE, Analysts, Data Enggs etc etc all vague af terms they just lump em all together and there's no boundaries.

[delicate bane]

dont forget Product roles as well lmao

[humble knot]

Expanding job search sounds like a must for me ig yeyeye

[delicate bane]

oh are you super selective about your job applications?

[humble knot]

I mean yeah I don't just send my resume everywhere, i apply to like 5 places and that's it cause I think that would be nuff

But I got to choose from others too

[delicate bane]

5 places huh

[true harness]

why not apply to more? once you get into the groove, each extra application doesn't really take that much longer. more applications -> more interviews -> more practice + more chance to get a job

[delicate bane]

i dont really know what to say that tbh

are there particular things youre looking for a job or..?

if not, then like void said, why not apply to more?

[humble knot]

Lol 😆 exactly why I didn't want to get into groove but it seems inevitable this job rat race. I pray to God for strength.

[summer roost]

One thought on those lines: if there's a limited pool of companies to apply to in your area, it may make sense to work on improving your weaknesses pointed out by the first few interviews before burning through more employers.

[delicate bane]

thats also true - as long as you dont take too long in between application cycles imo

[humble knot]

Nah my bruh I need something deeper like most jobs will have u work on something and u work and work and there are deadlines, ETAs and managers with bs other employees with random meta company typa banter n stuff I dislike all that.

[delicate bane]

uhhh thats pretty typical in an average job, no?

[true harness]

won't all jobs have deadlines

[delicate bane]

wont all most jobs have managers

[humble knot]

Yeah so that's all stuff i Dislike

So I go for jobs where I can do a more pivotal role even if it's super specific or I have to work alone a lot

[lyric ledge]

can anyone help me with a basic python school assignment 😭

[summer roost]

this is the #career-advice channel. See #❓｜how-to-get-help

[delicate bane]

umm idk what to say to that tbh since even devs have those elements of a job; also DS roles where you work alone can be hard to prove you provide value (aka you might be more likely to be let go in the next layoff round if it occurs)

[true harness]

also probably not very common for junior roles to be unsupervised

[humble knot]

I agree with both of yall

[summer roost]

how many years of experience do you have, @humble knot?

[humble knot]

That's exactly why now I need to learn DSA

[smoky quest]

ETAs and managers are there for a reason though. You should use them to your advantage and as partners

[humble knot]

Prolly 3 years ig if u count the non programming job I had - was a VLSI engineer for 2 years hardware.

[humble knot]

Too transactional for me too let's say cyclical. The same routine every day. Would be very boring. Much more fun to work on something new and do it or atleast be aware of it entirely. Like say building a product. Although I'm not a software engineer even with a data role I think much more involvement can be had esp let's say infrastructure etc. Maybe even networking. Some cloud stuff.

[summer roost]

given that you expressed feeling pressure about income earlier, you may want to broaden your search to include more typical positions.

[smoky quest]

These are orthogonal concerns though. A manager and ETAs could help you in all of these steps you mentioned. They can ensure things remain track, expectations are clear and that what you work on is meaningful

[humble knot]

Yes will do it tbh

[humble knot]

Yeah but it isn't always the case mostly any and all work u do where a manager is involved inevitably gets converted to some points scored, some KPAs KPIs and numbers on a screen tho.

[smoky quest]

How would do it if you were in their shoes?

[true harness]

you have to evaluate performance somehow. it's their job

[smoky quest]

It's more than the performance. People will be asking about the problem you are trying to solve, and how you know you are making progress towards it.
KPIs are also used for something popular for the past few years called Objective and Key Results. The goal is to identify what we want to improve without telling engineers how to do it as to give them total freedom to get there in however they see fit.

If we are unable to articulate how we are making progress to said goals, then how are we able to justify the time and effort is well spent, comparing to something else?

[delicate bane]

ah we use OKRs at my company

[smoky quest]

if you are interested, you may want to check the book measure what matters.
Be mindful that OKRs have become a bit like Agile and every company do it in their own way, for better or worse 😉

[delicate bane]

[kindred lion]

I totally understand, and I appreciate the response. That roadmap is quite helpful! I will also take a look at LeetCode and see what that offers. Thank you!

[hoary summit]

I had an interesting conversation with a friend I'm trying to get recruited. He said he was excited, but let me know he had a slew of whiteboard questions he was going to use to test the technical interviewer. I told him that there are better ways to see if you fit with a team without whiteboarding the interviewer. He got upset by this and then told me that he is going to do what he's going to do and that I should be aware. Is this a practice I don't know about? Thoughts on how to proceed?

[summer roost]

Cut your losses and accept that the friend probably isn't getting the job. That behavior is weird and strongly suggests that they don't understand the social or practical aspects of interviewing, which presumably will not come across well in an interview.

[hoary summit]

@summer roost I have a friend in HR and another friend would refer him for the benefit and he is a fantastic engineer, but I am not sure how to tell him I can't have my friends stick their neck out knowing that would be the case.

[summer roost]

It doesn't reflect particularly poorly on you to refer someone who doesn't work out. You didn't know he had this weird plan until recently, so at worst you just have to pretend that you never found out about his weird plan until after the interview was over, and someone from the team that interviews him says "that was weird" and you're like "why" and they tell you and you're like "oh wow, that's weird", and it's over.

honestly, trying to dissuade your friend from doing this seems likely to burn a bridge, and ultimately it's not your problem if they self-sabotage. It's unlikely to cause any long-term negative repercussions for you, especially if you know that they are a fantastic engineer, who happens to have some odd ideas about how interviews should be conducted.

[hoary summit]

You are most likely right with the bridge burning. He is a close friend and I definitely do not want to lose the friendship. I appreciate the advice @summer roost

[smoky quest]

Doesn't seem like such a close friend if they are willing to pull some stunt at the company where you work. That would not make them appear professional or mature.

Depending on how involved you are in their recruitment and how well you know the interview panel, I would recommend to either distance yourself from the whole thing or to bring up to the attention of the interview panel that it may be safer to cut the loss and prevent the situation from escalating. It may also depend on how far your friend may take the whole thing (would they create a scene? What if the interviewer play the game and fail and get angry?)
The outcome may look differently depending on if they look eccentric or aggressive.

[summer roost]

Depending on how involved you are in their recruitment

That's a good point. I was assuming that your involvement ended at you saying "I know this person and I think they'd be good for us".

If you have some continuing involvement in the process, it might be a good idea to give the interviewers or HR a heads up. I suppose it would depend on if you think the situation would just be strange and uncomfortable, or aggressive, or what.

[hoary summit]

I was connecting him with my friend in HR who schedules interviews for engineers, I think a good idea would be to let him go the traditional route, but give my HR friend a heads up and potentially stop the process there. I gave him my opinions which he was not a fan of in the moment. Maybe a couple days roll by and things change on his side. I'll play it by ear, but I'm glad others agree with how weird the idea of whiteboarding the interviewer is.

Also for clarity sake I do not work at the company, but have a decently juiced network within it.

[hardy ocean]

i already created a blog and now im planning to develop a django karaoke with websockets or some management system with django rest framework base on the order on the roadmap i websockets are probably more advanced that rest apis so i should go with rest first?

[smoky quest]

yeah. Keep it simple and stupid. Go with achievable milestones and build from there

[vapid jay]

Hi!

I am a 13 year old

I need help in choosing career

Which company should I go to become a good developer?

[gusty yoke]

💀 at 13 you are thinking of this much

[vapid jay]

Yep

What is a package?

[gusty yoke]

CTC
you get when you are hired

[vapid jay]

Microsoft?

[gusty yoke]

depends on diff roles but for an SDE its around 40-50 lpa

[vapid jay]

Should I go? Your age sir?

What university should I go for CS?

[vapid jay]

What?

[hardy ocean]

nice thank you sir

[jade thistle]

Hey guys what should i learn first?

Database or Bigdata?

[buoyant seal]

The second looks to me impossible without first already learned

[vapid jay]

can anyone tell me difference b/w
CEA (computer engineering and applications) vs CSE (computer science engineering)

[nimble jackal]

I'm interested in making some money on the side, though I'm still in high school. I've heard of other high schoolers being able to make like $15/h, so I thought I may as well give it a shot if I can find some place lol

[native narwhal]

I live in East Europe and we are poor, for the past 4 years I tried learning and working with:
-networking
-linux
-graphic design
-digital marketing
-tried coding (JS/Py/Swift/SQL)

just to get that dream $15/h remote job
NO LUCK

so I started applying to lower pay jobs with no real skill needed such as Data Entry / Verification / Phone answering as customer support etc

Landed a $7/h job and I now need a 2nd job which I still can't find to reach the $15/h so YEAH.

my point is tech jobs need you to be medior/senior which means that you are very very technical and knowledgeable and experienced and that takes a lot of time and resources so yeah....

[near ocean]

Thats just not true
There are plenty of junior and entry level jobs out there that pay well

Also its probably not a good idea to think a wage in the US or elsewhere somehow applies to your country as well

[humble knot]

idek but imo when a company gets larger it is absolutely important, I'm thinking small size companies where this type of management won't be necessary.

[humble knot]

Totally not cool, ask him to refrain from doing this lol, that is unless he himself is hiring people one day. Interviewing the Interviewer is unheard of.

[near ocean]

You should be interviewing the interviewer but not like this
Its a two way street, they learn more about you and you learn more about them

[humble knot]

good luck my bruh

btw how do they pay u 7 dollars an hour, is it credited every time or monthly etc is there a Crypto option available.

[near ocean]

Its probably paid monthly and probably (definitely)mo crypto option

[bronze sinew]

@wooden burrow

[buoyant seal]

Useful table

Python or Java for people going into backend xD if we disregard JavaScript.

Although if to be honest, at least Java should be having considerable amount of its vanacies for mobile development perhaps.
If to half amount of its vacancies we should get same numbers as for PHP

[gritty rivet]

Damn, if that includes the whole EU (which has a significantly larger population than the US), it's wild how much less the total number of tech jobs is. Unless LinkedIn is just less popular there, it must be so much harder to find a job in the EU!

[buoyant seal]

US is purely English
Europe is having multiple local languages and hiring web sites: German, Italian, Serbian and etc. That contributes to having half less jobs... we are having only jobs exposed to Enligh language i think

[gilded valley]

what reason is there to believe this chart isn't trash?
I ask because most of these rankings are just nonsense when you dive into them beyond the surface level

[buoyant seal]

No reason, but still useful Possible reason to believe it is a trash, that JavaScript is not on the first place for some reason

[gilded valley]

Perl > Ruby seems very weird

[buoyant seal]

This ranking is based on LinkedIn. Better than regular non sense a bit

[gilded valley]

do you know if it's languages mentioned in job titles, or just anywhere in the post?

[near ocean]

https://codingnomads.co/blog/the-best-programming-languages-to-learn/

[buoyant seal]

Point taken. But even if it is mentioned anywhere in the post, it still... shows a bit likelyhood company is having embraced this language for one more person

[gilded valley]

either is still useful - it just changes hwo you interpret it

e.g there's going to be a lot of jobs with "Python" in the body because they want "any of Python/Bash/Powershell" for SREs, but there's not going to be many "Python SRE" postings - but there will be a ton of "Java Developer" postings

[buoyant seal]

mm yeah, lets say it is just direction into which market is going

True

[digital fjord]

What I think would be a more interesting statistics are "job postings removed from linkedin in the past year", since that should be approximately how many are actually getting filled. I am willing to bet that a lot more of the java positions have very specific additional framework requirements and have remained open for a very long time in contrast to for example JS.

[buoyant seal]

We need detalization, categorizing jobs within each language for more insight 🙂

https://youtu.be/-RTaFJAgWSU we can add some picture with the most popular backend frameworks just based on github stars.
Surprisingly Laravel wins xD Plus it shows it in timeline changes, allowing us to draw estimations

[near ocean]

These charts never offer any useful info imho, theyre just pretty colours

[buoyant seal]

I think data from different resources is supposed to be within 10% to match each other if having similar meaning
we could extract some kind of extrapolation out of this graphics for information we would wish to know

Most used frameworks according to stackoverflow research
https://statisticsanddata.org/data/most-popular-backend-frameworks-2012-2022/

[near ocean]

10% of what
Whats the average experience of devs polled, where do they live, where do they work, what industry are they in, is it a startup, whats their education level, etc

These charts are quite literally useless

[gilded valley]

I think github stars per framework gives you almost 0 practical information

[digital fjord]

GH stars seem to be more about "to what extent does the normal user need to go to github"

[gilded valley]

IMO the stack overflow dev survey, and some others like the Jetbrains python survey, can give you interesting - if not necessarily practical - information about the state of the job market

[buoyant seal]

Well... Stack overflow information certainly matches expectations. Javascript, javascript, javascript, javascript, javascript, javascript in all 6 first positions

[gilded valley]

if you look at something like FastAPI, Tiangolo is quite eplicit about asking for stars. Whereas Django doesn't even seem to link to their github very prominently

[near ocean]

Charts like these are do more harm than good, should we all start learning clojure cause SO says its the highest paid lang?

[digital fjord]

yeah, 50k fastAPI to 60k django is not in any way related to their relative popularity.

[buoyant seal]

Ergh. Charts show us... balance between job vanacies how easy to find jobs in those languages, between possible job salaries.
I think it is good to check at least for first parameter to have some guessing at least

[gilded valley]

I think this is ridiculous. Specifically the SO dev survey is reasonably explicit about the limitations. The fact that people can abuse data isn't a reason not to collect the data

for something like the TIOBE index, I can maybe buy the argument that it's harmful - because it's presenting itself as something that it isn't. But many surveys are fairly upfront

[near ocean]

The survey might be upfront but taking bite sized chunks from it without context isnt

[buoyant seal]

Anyway, according to this chart:

1. Javascript
   very much behind
2. C#
3. Python
4. PHP
5. Ruby

[digital fjord]

PHP fourth? Are they sure?

oh, wordpress is not listed, that would do it. A lot of PHP is wordpress or just no-framework

[gilded valley]

There's limits to the data. I'm guessing some guy in Poland earning shit money churning out fixes for wordpress plugins is less likely to go through the effort of filling in the survey than someone a year out of university earning $180,000 in San Francisco

[buoyant seal]

yeah, they mentioned only backend or frontend... frameworks, not CMSes
PHP has there at least Laravel, Symphony and i don't recognize others

[near ocean]

Kids will now see this and go learn jquery and drupal, when will the horrors end

[digital fjord]

which I would argue proves that your conclusion about languages are completely useless. Like, we can agree that PHP as a language for webdev is used a lot more than python, right? Even if you disregard the people who use wordpress without writing code

[gilded valley]

If you have reasonable domain knowledge, then this is an interesting chart which I think provides reasonably valuable information about the job market that you couldn't get elsewhere

[near ocean]

dart user moment

Ditch python and go for functional langs, pro tip

[digital fjord]

hmmm, that is kind of interesting, though average years of professional experience between hundreds of people seems quite useless.

[gilded valley]

I think it's a reasonable way of incorporating experience into the chart

[digital fjord]

it is probably about as good as you can get, yeah.

[gilded valley]

I feel it would have been useful to include a line showing the average salary for developers in all languages by year

(for completeness sake, here's a similar chart by by developer type instead (that top right point is senior executive, not senior developer))

and the actual link https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2022/#work

[buoyant seal]

Something is sus though. Average years of professional experience 11 years for golang devs? When language is only 13 years old
Or rust, average 10 years while it was released in 2010 year 😆

Probably it is general experience of software engineers then for their whole career

[gilded valley]

that's not sus, C/C++ systems programmers moving into the new systems programming languages is what you'd expect

[gilded valley]

yeah, there's a lot of people who don't stick to one language for long periods of time

[buoyant seal]

Sure. After certain amount of years many people would learn at least one or more languages. I reach that stage with python already, and preparing to jump into another language... during next year.

Wishing to get another language, which solves stuff python can't seem to solve And exposing me to jobs with different common domains. With Python i seem too often notice ML in some way or another present.

[delicate bane]

and yet some VCs invest based on number of GH stars

🥴

[delicate bane]

surprised you havent picked up another one already? or have you

[buoyant seal]

I already chosen which language i am going to learn next, and learnt its basics syntax, but i need to dive more into learning into its ecosystem and... to have the language at reflex quickly used

[buoyant seal]

I will go for go xD Because i have strong DevOps side in me, and this language is perfect for DevOps infrastructure tooling. For this reason alone i am not discouraged by very low amount of jobs in it, and young in general ecosystem.

If i remained pure Backend i would have probably went for Java otherwise. I am fan of minecraft anyway. May be i will anyway... few years later.

[delicate bane]

i was also going to suggest golang. my senior devops friend highly recommends it

[buoyant seal]

Unless u a seriously wishing to dive into DevOps, i would not probably recommend it too much. too low amount of jobs.

This language is not going to be chosen in most of times just because low amount of devs in it

[delicate bane]

oh no im not going to since im not going into devops

[buoyant seal]

What is your choice to go after Python / or besides Python? 🙂 Or u haven't chosen yet?

[near ocean]

rUsT for that high stress high pay crypto job

[delicate bane]

you arent going to like it...but react.js

[buoyant seal]

I don't like it but it is a good choice.
In terms of full stack career

[delicate bane]

im not even frontend dev lol but my company uses react for some custom tooling

[buoyant seal]

I am not Frontend Dev too, but as future Software Architect I was obligated to know it at minimal level... I learnt Vue.js. really good experience man

[delicate bane]

isnt that solidity

[delicate bane]

[buoyant seal]

Vue.js does not concern u with render optimizations. High level language approach.
Syntax pleasant to python Devs.
No hard thinking which library to choose out of its ecosystem, they are all stable to use and obvious which to choose.
Smallest learning curve
It can be embedded into backend framework right into template rendering without npm packages
Yet it is one out of three most popular frontend frameworks
Sensible approach to code html/CSS/js separation into adjust locations without mixing

Best friend of backend Dev to learn Frontend

[fast parcel]

Hello, has anyone taken the PCPP certification and passed it?

I'm taking it this saturday and theres no exam or practice material and I am quite worried that I will fail the exam, because theres alot of content to take it

[flint void]

whatsss PCPP

[thorny grotto]

Is it possible to get a job while knowing only Python, or would additional skills be required? If the former, what are some examples of jobs that would require knowing only Python?

[summer roost]

It is possible but unlikely. The vast majority of real world jobs require knowing multiple languages.

[thorny grotto]

I see. Would you be able to provide an example of language(s) that pair well with Python?

[summer roost]

That will depend on the job. Web development jobs would likely require you to know JavaScript, HTML, and CSS, for instance. Maybe Typescript as well. App development jobs might require you to know Kotlin. Backend jobs might require you to know C# or Java or C++ or Rust.

[thorny grotto]

Wait, Python can be used for web development?

[smoky quest]

You may want to consult https://roadmap.sh/ for some ideas of what's out there

[low juniper]

I work on API integrations, purely Python engineering.

Is that a subsidiary of webdev? Heh

[low juniper]

Thank you so much for posting this. Exactly what I needed!

[thorny grotto]

That looks like a very valuable resource. Thanks!

[buoyant seal]

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/darklab8/darklab_backend_roadmap/master/swe_backend.drawio.svg
Feel free to have a look into my Python Backend Roadmap in addition. It has some skill classification, which stuff needed being learned from Software Engineering, from Backend, from Python, from other fields.
It adds at least all the Software Engineering stuff (green colored skills) which is not mentioned in roadmaps above.

[near shuttle]

hi I am a beginner in python and would like to get help and resources from other developers here and would also love to collaborate on python projects as well! Dm: open! (career objective is: freelancer as python web developer.)

[near ocean]

Why is freelancing your career objective?

[near shuttle]

done job 5 yrs and fed up of it! started freelancing 2 years back and im loving it! I want to work from anywhere thats why freelancing as a python web developer!

[foggy halo]

Is that good? (Ive been just learning for 2 days)

print ("enter your birth year and you will know your age in currect year")
age_year = int(input("Enter your year: "))
age_years = int(input("Enter your year again: "))
while age_year < 2022:
    age_year += 1
result = (age_year - age_years)
print ("you are " + str(result) + " years old" )

Also any suggestions?

[gritty rivet]

Good to see you learning Python! This channel is for discussion of jobs and careers though. Check out #python-discussion

[oak wasp]

Linkedin, indeed, turing, glassdoor, ziprecruiter, do u know guys other websites to search remote jobs?

[plain fractal]

Hi guys

[vapid jay]

Hello Julia

[analog estuary]

A few friends have recommended me https://remotive.com/ and https://www.remote.io/ . I have attempted to apply using those two: with remotive.com, I haven't gotten any replies back and also company-wise it seems a bit more obscure. Remote.io had a lot more companies that you probably heard of, but it's literally just a job board that redirects you to the main career page of the company. And some of those turned out not to be remote roles

[oak wasp]

thank you very much!

[charred heron]

hi

[analog sun]

Hello, what does this have to do with #career-advice ?

[tulip prism]

sorry i did not mean to send it here

[empty obsidian]

does a data scientist need cyber security skills?

[peak halo]

No

There might be very specific circumstances where a company wants someone who's knowledge in both areas. But that role would probably be filled by a mid or late career person

[vivid glen]

I'm a Staff DevOps/SRE and currently on the job market, I've had some coding interviews go poorly lately and I feel like I need more practice in coding interviews. Is there somewhere that you guys recommend for mock coding interviews?

[lapis wind]

It somewhat depends on the company, but things like leetcode style questions or hackerrank questions are pretty popular.

Maybe look at those sort of challenges and see if they match up to the sort of tasks you've been given in the interview. If they have, work on doing some of them.

[delicate bane]

no but certain positions (i.e. government) might require you to be Security+ certified.

or if you are at a particular company (i.e. Cloudflare), your "domain expertise" as a DS is security and networking

one DS i follow has content on the intersection of the cybersecurity and ML

[deft herald]

They still do leetcode at the staff level?

[lapis rampart]

https://purplevintage.creator-spring.com/ Check out my store

[smoky quest]

It wouldn't be as heavy as for junior roles, but yeah, I would expect some

[lucid parrot]

how I start my journey in Data Science......pls help with self study

[smoky quest]

For career purpose, most DS jobs will strongly rely on degrees.
So if you are in HS or college age, aim for a CS or DS related degree

[vapid jay]

Hello, has anyone choosen data engineer as your career I wanna know what is it like to work as a data engineer

[earnest vine]

Hello I am looking for someone hot in Python programming for a fairly easy school project. If willingly come pm please thank you

[gritty rivet]

Check out r/dataengineering on Reddit and/or Discord

[true harness]

!rule 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[buoyant seal]

https://connortumbleson.com/2022/09/19/someone-is-pretending-to-be-me/ new scam appeared. Identity Theft.. Highly likely your Pablo above (#career-advice message) with Discord account created quite recently is part of it. So kind of highly likely more rules are broken here too Just red flags to suspect it at least

[buoyant seal]

<@&831776746206265384> better to erase @vivid pawn msgs, from all channels. He duplicated them in multiple ones #web-development message

[hasty harness]

https://remote.co/ and https://weworkremotely.com/ are legit?

[near ocean]

Sure, i dont see why they wouldn't be

[peak plaza]

I wonder what should one learn/do after learning basic syntax of python. I finished the python tutorial of freecodecamp on yt

[gritty rivet]

Build stuff. It doesn't matter what as long as you keep learning and doing

This is the career channel so if you're asking what to learn from that perspective, keep your eye on job listings and also check out roadmaps like these: https://roadmaps.sh/

[tired spire]

I have a Google swe intern assessment this Saturday, anyone have any advice? Also have a Amazon one and Bank of America

[true harness]

assessment? is that an interview?

[tired spire]

They call it an online challenge

[true harness]

ok so it's probably just gonna be some leetcode type question

[tired spire]

Yeh I guess

How worthwhile is it studying leetcode? Does it help in improving my coding skills?

[true harness]

it will make you better at leetcode. it will give you practice problem solving, so indirectly it will help your coding skills

[tired spire]

Ok I'm on the fence on purchasing the premium option. I'm not working ATM so need to budget

[true harness]

it's not worth it

[tired spire]

For real, cool ill take your advice. Thanks man, if I pass its on you

[dense mesa]

You definitely don't need premium, just use leetcode and a pirated/online copy of cracking the Coding Interview

[tired spire]

Thanks, I've got the actual book

[vapid jay]

import multiprocessing as mp
from tqdm import tqdm

def foo ...

def _foo(item, bar):
bar.update()
return foo(*item)

if name == 'main':
# items = ...

n_items = len(items)
n_cpu = mp.cpu_count()
chunksize = n_items // n_cpu
bar = tqdm(total=n_items)
with mp.Pool(processes=n_cpu) as pool:
    with tqdm(total=n_items) as progress:
        for s, p in pool.imap_unordered(_foo, items, bar):
            d[s] += p
bar.close()

from tqdm import tqdm

# def foo  ...

def _foo(item, bar):
    bar.update()
    return foo(*item)

if __name__ == '__main__':
    # items = ...

    n_items = len(items)
    n_cpu = mp.cpu_count()
    chunksize = n_items // n_cpu
    bar = tqdm(total=n_items)
    with mp.Pool(processes=n_cpu) as pool:
        with tqdm(total=n_items) as progress:
            for s, p in pool.imap_unordered(_foo, items, bar):
                d[s] += p
    bar.close()```

[near ocean]

@vapid jay this isnt a help channel and thats not how to ask a question #❓｜how-to-get-help

[icy fern]

do I capitalize machine learning and deep learning? etc, ie:

• Evaluation and testing of machine learning models
• Evaluation and testing of Machine Learning models

inside job description

[dense mesa]

Whichever

[true harness]

just be consistent

[icy fern]

Any advice?

[lapis wind]

I would probably lean towards combining the languages together. IMO it's fairly redundant to say Java (Object-Oriented, etc...) because thats a given 😅

[icy fern]

Okay, I combined them.

anything else?

[true harness]

for skills, having multiple columns tends to be poorly parsed by ATS, so you probably want to put them in a single column if possible

for professional experience, your bullets should all be present tense, since you're still working there. i would also get someone fluent in english to look over everything, some of the bullets feel awkward

for skills, it's "object oriented programming", not "objected oriented"

for projects, maybe put what tech you used to accomplish the things? like for your first project, what frameworks did you use? etc

this one is purely a ~vibes~ suggestion, but it feels slightly off for your professional experience section to just have all the bullets in the middle. wrt the rest of the page, where pretty much everything starts left aligned. i understand it's because the date and the date lines up with your education, but idk, still feels kinda weird

some of your bullets have periods, some don't. decide which you want to do and be consistent

i'm not sure the worth of listing 3 of your machine learning projects. maybe pick one and describe that one in more detail

[near ocean]

Also, (if youre going to keep it) change the second project to use paragraphs instead of bullet points, it stands out and kinda bothers me lol

[true harness]

(or change them all to bullets)

[true harness]

also, is there a github link? i don't see the symbol at the top

[icy fern]

I'm applying for ML jobs that's why

"this one is purely a ~vibes~ suggestion, but it feels slightly off for your professional experience section to just have all the bullets in the middle. wrt the rest of the page, where pretty much everything starts left aligned. i understand it's because the date and the date lines up with your education, but idk, still feels kinda weird"
I listed did it so it'll be grouped, like ML/DL at the front, and general stuff afterwards(in terms of importance)

I can move the dates to the right

felt better on the left, maybe because I'm natively RTL language speaker

I'll change it though

[true harness]

my main idea for that suggestion is because you don't really give any detail about what the projects are

[true harness]

maybe it's better for people where you're applying. what country is this?

[icy fern]

Israel, hows this for skills?
https://i.imgur.com/DpnPt4D.png

[true harness]

I would ask people you know irl to look it over then. I wouldn't know what's normal for resumes over there

for the skills, it's ok, but the boxes are a bit obnoxious

[agile hemlock]

Hi I'm currently in my senior year and I'll be graduating this year and I have been using python for 2 years now and I already made several games and 2 software for my capstone projects at school but I don't really know what to do next

I'm going to take computer science in college and I'm considering learning machine learning or becoming a data analyst since my current research project is a statistical calculator

[true harness]

it seems you've answered your own question then. try doing some machine learning. in general, it's good to have a lot of breadth, rather than depth

[agile hemlock]

What about data analysis? When should I learn it?

[icy fern]

Alternatively, I put the dates on the right

[smoky quest]

by graduating, do you mean high school?

[agile hemlock]

Yeah I'll be going to college several months from now

[smoky quest]

yeah then don't stress out too much.
For now, I would recommend:

• Make sure you have the grades to access the college of your choosing for a CS degree
• Have fun! Build robots, games, websites, your own programming languages! Since you mentioned some interest in ML, learn something about it and do some cool stuff with it

[agile hemlock]

That's the problem, I really hate school I don't find anything interesting about it during the online classes I would rather create games and read books than listen to lecture

I'm no genius or a talented person it's just that engineering is something I'm looking for and I want to create something more complex than what I was doing before so I guess I'll try machine learning

[smoky quest]

The school after HS is very different as it's a lot more practical and directly useful. Whereas HS is more focused on making you a citizen with a broad and basic knowledge.
That said, you gotta do what you gotta do. Without good grades, you won't be able to get into the fun parts.

Note also that many subjects you touch in HS will be useful for later, but unfortunately, they don't always explain why you should care about them at the time.

[true harness]

yeah that definitely looks better to me. but again, i'm not a hiring manager or recruiter or anything, and not very familiar with israel wrt resumes

[icy fern]

Thanks.

[icy fern]

Anyone else opinions here?

[cobalt owl]

I know it's probably possible, but is it realistic to get a software developer job at 17? On top of that right after graduating HS?

[vapid jay]

thank you

[true harness]

Bachelor's degree or equivalent (minimum 12 years) work experience. If Associate’s Degree, must have minimum 6 years work experience
i think this is on the extreme side, but it does emphasize how much easier getting a degree makes things, lol

[delicate bane]

looks much better than previous version imo

[delicate bane]

and apparently theyll still underpay you if they can get away with it

🕯️

[smoky quest]

finding a job is very different from having a great career.
There is a reason degrees are sought after

[lucid parrot]

Hey friends what is the best lang to start in CS , c or python ...

[gentle kite]

python

[lucid parrot]

Why not c pls explain

[gentle kite]

C is a systems programming language designed to give you more control at the lower level and doesn't hold your hand as much. if you're learning CS for the first time odds are you aren't going to make anything that warrants wielding that kind of power, and the language with the easier syntax is python. after you've done a computer systems/architecture/nand2tetris class pointers are easier to understand

and C isn't object oriented. that's a type of programming you will eventually want to study C++ is though

[lucid parrot]

Thanks bro

[gentle kite]

yw

[cunning wedge]

can someone help me in #help-cookie

[near ocean]

Much better yes, i would still add some number in the bullet points in prof experience
You must have improved something or reduced costs/time spent on something by some measureable amount

[icy fern]

It’s a research position, everything is sorta theory, there was no product launched. I’m still a student, too.

[near ocean]

There must be some measureable outcome out of the research, no?

[crystal umbra]

!code

[inner wren]

Here's how to format Python code on Discord:

```py
print('Hello world!')
```

These are backticks, not quotes. Check this out if you can't find the backtick key.

[vapid jay]

quite often, especially in basic research, there is not. well, there is always an outcome but it's often ambiguous and sometimes you just outright disprove your own theorem.

so from a "market-value"-perspective there is absolutely no gain.

from a scientific perspective obviously there is but that's nothing that can be marketed

[dense mesa]

Knowing that something doesn't work is still very valuable

[vapid jay]

for science, yes. for the industry, sometimes. not that often tho.

[dense mesa]

For industry it's even more valuable, if you're not spending time and resources on going down a dead end

[vapid jay]

well, i'm talking about basic research here. there's often a plethora of steps and a significant amount of time before that information can be made into something marketable

[near ocean]

Whats basic research? Whats marketable? Its not about trying to sell a product, its about showing that your work has some measureable impact in the company, industry

[vapid jay]

at uni i did some research into refraction in semi-translucent materials and the influence of magnetically induced atomic structure changes on said refraction. although a lot of knowledge was gained who knows if this information will ever be used for anything.
but since you never know what could be found you keep on looking, even if there is no immediate or even long term gain in a materialistic sense.
and don't even get me started on inconclusive and ambiguous results. i was present at a handful of pitches from researchers for private funding and the first question was always what product they had in mind with their research and if that wasn't answered the second one was why they should burn money by funding their research then. that's why most basic research is thankfully funded by the government (at least here), otherwise it wouldn't be at all.

[dense mesa]

Gotta say I agree with Nassim Taleb's perspective on research funding

[vapid jay]

in order to answer your question you'll have to forgive me but i'll quote wiki since they do a way better job at explaining it than i ever could:

Basic research, also called pure research or fundamental research, is a type of scientific research with the aim of improving scientific theories for better understanding and prediction of natural or other phenomena. In contrast, applied research uses scientific theories to develop technology or techniques which can be used to intervene and alter natural or other phenomena.

Something marketable would be created by applied science. You can't just sell pure information about something (the exception are scientific publishers), you have to actually use that information to make something that can be sold.

And that's what i said. You could spend a lifetime conducting great and possibly extremely valuable basic research without it ever having any impact on any market or company in your or even multiple generations.

[vapid jay]

tbh i have no idea what his view on research funding is, i only know that in general he's a moron. you cannot call yourself a scientist or science-anything and propagate shit like homeopathy. i assume he was a better banker/investment manager than researcher, because any "research" by him i have read, is basically just semi-incoherent ranting on paper.

[dense mesa]

Not interested in having discussions with people who call others "mongrels", even if they do edit their message after. Have a good one

[icy fern]

I'm writing a paper, submission starts soon but I was advised not to include it because it is not yet submitted.

[glossy solar]

What library or framework is easiest on terms of time to land a job just to get some income in Django?

[vapid jay]

i edited it out because it's used as a general insult (synonym to idiot) locally where i am but doesn't make sense in the global understanding of the word in english in general. i stand by the insult itself tho. i would have called him much worse, but i don't want to retype everything since i don't know what words are automatically rejected. when it comes to scientific research this guy is a joke at best.

[vagrant sandal]

You're gonna have to clarify that. "Library or framework" of what? Of Django? Of the HTML-CSS-JS frontend?

[vapid jay]

hmh, interesting question, i never thought about sub-specializing within a framework. i would have considered the whole entity of django as something you may or could specialize on.

which already in itself would be quite a narrow scope imo

[glossy solar]

I want to learn a framework to get a job.. I saw stuff like pandas numpy and like data analysis takes some time
I'd like something with size of a year to land a job as i alreay know html css

[glossy solar]

Ya it's better to specialize in 1 thing

But my idea is to learn something with ability to get a job at same time continue learning something else to get better job or maybe same field

Fields of studying like data analysis, ai ml, NLP takes a ton of time to get a job
I doubt something like Django would be as hard as those other

[vagrant sandal]

get a job
You're gonna have to specifically pick a path for yourself first, only then we can help you pick the framework based. Because "I'd like to score a programming job" is incredibly vague and general, almost on par with "I want an office job". Yes, we can help you, but only so much without additional infos

[glossy solar]

Oh yes I understand

I like Django because I got front end background maybe that road would be easy

[gritty rivet]

Django is a framework, and it is in demand. Are you asking what other framework to learn to complement it? Maybe something like Vue or React if you want to go full stack. But if you already know Django that's enough to apply for jobs

[glossy solar]

I'm asking would learning Django let's say hypothetically for a year of hard work would be enoug alone to get a job.. remote job for example

Or do I need to have something else with it or Django on its own not enough to get me a job

Because I don't want to study for like 4 years then get a job.. something bit less time and effort maybe Django is what I'm looking for?

[gritty rivet]

Depends on a lot of things, the best way to know is to apply. You probably don't need anywhere near a year to learn Django, and you don't even necessarily need to know Django to get a job working with it

[vapid jay]

well, i would consider django "one thing". also in order to do any decent job in software dev you will need to learn several things as trends and popular tech change and companies might switch to something else. also understanding the general structure and how things work and interconnect is something i would consider baseline in this line of work. a baker can't only bake one single type of bread.
but maybe i'm too much of a generalist and have done this for too long and am therefore not qualified to answer this from the perspective of getting into software dev since i can't even rember not being one. so take everything i said on that topic with a grain of salt.

[glossy solar]

I understand what you mean..
And would youtube and documention on internet be enough to get a job?or I must enroll into a boot camp or something

Already in university but it's so useless

[gritty rivet]

If you're saying you don't want to get a degree, you should understand that there are no shortcuts here. A degree is a worthwhile investment if you can reasonably make it

That said if you want to maximize your learning over the course of a year, I would strategize around roadmaps like https://roadmaps.sh/ But again you don't need to master all of backend to be a backend engineer necessarily

[weary helm]

im 16 years old picking up computer science but im not sure what course to take in the future ;-;

but the computer science course our school provides is really bad tho :/
they literally took one year to teach basic python and some random useless thing

[glossy solar]

Not a degree I meant but actual studying at home for 4 years till getting a job

If leanrt a bit of Django atm if I continue for a year and then build projects get them on GitHub and make my own website and host it
Would that be enough

[gritty rivet]

If you can self-learn enough to put together an impressive portfolio, then a bootcamp may not be necessary just to find a job. But you'll always be at a disadvantage against people with relevant degrees

[vapid jay]

regarding django specifically: it's quite a large framework, this has it's positives as everything is included and you only need to learn the framework itself but also negatives.
if you want something smaller i would recommend the probably most popular contender in form of a microframework: flask
you won't need to learn as much flask (because it's waaaay smaller) but you will need to learn more general logic and develop an understanding for algorithms and systems, since you don't get everything premade like with django.
i personally prefer flask since i have an easier time understanding concepts than learning specific classes in libs but everyone is different and others might have an easier time the other way round. in the end you gotta know what approach to learning is better suited for you.

[glossy solar]

Or is there a secret thing or something I'm missing

[glossy solar]

Oh okay I understand it's because they got help on specialization from university?

[glossy solar]

Yeah true I understand what you mean

[gritty rivet]

Partly it's about the knowledge they gain and partly it's just about having the piece of paper to pass HR requirements and whatnot

[glossy solar]

Oh okay I see

Working on open source projects or with friends on projects on gitHub helps getting chances higher on landing a job?

[weary helm]

btw im thinking of furthering my studies in university taking cs
im 16 this year should i start preparing anything?

[gritty rivet]

I agree that Flask (or FastAPI) are easier to start with and building a good project with one of those can potentially be enough to get you hired

[glossy solar]

Oh speaking of API do I need to learn them?

I only know bit of fastapi and when I should learn apis

[vagrant sandal]

It's glue between backend and frontend, so yes, pick an API building framework

[gritty rivet]

Mostly get the best grades you can, talk to guidance counselors, etc. You don't need to master a programming language but anything you want to do with programming now won't hurt either

[glossy solar]

Like fastapi? Is it good or good for Django

[vapid jay]

for many/some situations/people i would honestly consider a degree just a necessary piece of paper for companies to check off the list. depends on the educational institution and the individual of course. i know as many great self-taught programmers without any kind of degree as devs with conventional education. however, completely independent from what you actually learn in school or by yourself having a degree will immensly help you if you want to get and stay employed as companies love stamps and paper. many of the self taught devs i know have gone freelance or made their own companies because getting a job without some form of official "proof of ability" turned out to not be easy, at least back then. and while it payed off for most of them, it is a hussle and one might not want that. i have honestly no idea how much paper is required nowadays.

[glossy solar]

But isn't now easier to get a job without a college degree?

[gritty rivet]

FastAPI and Django are both backend frameworks. Understanding how APIs work is fundamental either way. If you can build a good REST api using either framework, that's a great project for your resume. That's pretty much all I did to get my first developer job, but I also have a (non IT) degree and other (IT) work experience

[glossy solar]

Since many companies offer courses like on Coursera for many things

[gritty rivet]

Easier than in the past, yes. Still not very easy though. And getting a job is one thing, building a good career is another

[glossy solar]

If Django is backend then what's on the front end? Html css js? Or just html css?
Because if html css only I need to revisit them and if with Js I must learn it

[weary helm]

aight thanks :D

[glossy solar]

Yeah true that's right

[oblique garden]

That last line is super poignant, I like that.

[vapid jay]

maybe that's just my individual impression having worked for a plethora of companies as a freelancer but i have seen some periodic changes. however, consider also that such a change has only to occur once to make you obsolete for a company. if you focus on a single tech and do it for many years and the company switches to another tech just once, you will not be needed any more. obviously you can go and find another company that uses the tech you know but that was in the context of "staying employed (within the same company)".
but yeah, generally it's not a problem anyway to find another job if you already got some xp.
i was generalizing in regard to the approach of learning in the software dev field.
also you have mentioned django and flask. however, consider even older tech. that is still used but is cycling out slowly in favor of those you mentioned. and the same will happen to them in 15-20 years. at some point any tech becomes legacy tech. that's why getting into the business with the approach of being willing to learn constantly is the better "mindset" in general imo.

[vagrant sandal]

That's fair

[gritty rivet]

You can be a backend engineer with just Python, if you want to be full stack you will probably use a lot of JS. Where I work we have full stack engineers that build our Django app and work on the front end using Vue.js. I barely know any JS and just do backend work

[glossy solar]

Oh okay I understand.. so I got almost the full idea of what to do and which direction to go for

My only last question is how many hours ideally I should dedicate for this like what's bare minimum?

How many hours for like learning from YouTube or documentation and how many for actual coding

[gritty rivet]

It depends on you, your ability, your goals, etc. Most important thing is consistency, day after day and week after week

[glossy solar]

Yes of course..I was having in mind around 2 hours of learning theoretical parts YouTube google stuff and 3 hours coding

Every day and try to get to 6 hours coding on holidays with 4 hours studying theoretical parts

Thanks a lot for helping guys really!!

[vapid jay]

this may sound a bit like hoity toity pie in the sky hippie garbage but you should honestly consider figuring out first if you actually want to build a career in this field. i may be speaking out of my posterior but what i interpret from this is "what is the minimum of time i can invest in order to get xx$". that approach might get you a dead-end job in programming but it won't support a long career. if you are not genuinely interested in software/building complex systems and derive no significant joy from twisting your brain to figure things out and basically write your own puzzles and solve them, you may get burned out pretty fast and hard.
i've seen too many people burn out and crash after 6-10 years because they went into software dev only for the good paycheck.

[lapis wind]

I thing the obvious answer is yes, it is possible, but how easy it is to do so largely depends on your country and your existing/demonstrable knowledge.

[unreal river]

hello guys, could we answer how to better learn a basic python syntaxes (I am a really beginner in programming.)

[buoyant seal]

Books and pet projects 😉 @unreal river

[unreal river]

I watching a CS50 python lecture, but I think need a more practice. How much time need to give for theory and practice?) Excuse me for my English I also learn him.

[buoyant seal]

I usually have 20% of theory for 80% practice. Works well to me
Sometimes I increase amount of theory

[vapid jay]

depends on the individual. i'm more of a learning-by-doing kinda guy so i would recommend that. figuring out why your program doesn't work is a great gateway to the rabbithole of programming.
however, many people don't like this approach and would rather read an entire theory book before they even write a single line of code.
ultimately you have you figure out what type of person you are.

[unreal river]

Oh thank you

[gilded valley]

what country are you in?

ah - I know nothing about the job market in Indonesia, so I don't have anything to suggest

[unreal river]

Person who don't like a math c:

[gilded valley]

it's really country specific - sorry. In e.g Eastern Europe I could suggest PHP web dev as an entry point, in the US I'd suggest that you really want to do a degree or possibly try a bootcamp, but I'm not at all sure for Indonesia

probably have a look around on job boards and see what kind of roles pop up a lot

[unreal river]

I also want to ask what the websites,YouTube channel should to watch and read for make programming a lifestyle

[vapid jay]

if it's supposed to be a lifestyle i guess whatever is interesting to you?

if it's for learning i don't recommend youtube. maybe for general concepts and stuff like that but if you want to learn something you need to take in a lot of information and video/audio format has a bad info/time ratio. for efficient learning there is no way around reading imo. for lifestyle do whatever you want/feel like.

Is there a chan to post a job? I am hiring. If not sorry to bother.... But any other location I could post a job?

one of the many job-websites? indeed or whatever they're all called. i do not think there is a channel for that on this discord

[cobalt owl]

LinkedIn is good too

[vapid jay]

0,none seconds of ducking:
https://recruitee.com/articles/best-job-boards-software-engineers
50 of them should suffice?

[buoyant seal]

Everyone makes mistakes

[vapid jay]

everyone makes soooooooooo makes mistakes all the time

[true harness]

especially with git, lol. unless you did something really annoying like force push rewrite history or something, you're probably fine. just nuke the local repo and pull it again. even then, that's just not something you'd get fired over for a 1 time thing

[near remnant]

Nah, i didnt do any hard stuff

[vapid jay]

depends on the company tho, if they're gits they might. i don't think so tho, coders are in demand. let's be real here, often even coders with 20+ years xp do multiple rollbacks a day. it happens

[near remnant]

Just something went wrong with commits and thats all

[vapid jay]

also isn't that what the test environment is for?

[near remnant]

Im just usually really hard on myself

[true harness]

i've never heard of a test environment for git

[vapid jay]

it's basically a branch or whatever it's called in git, no idea, i have to use svn here

that's diligent

[gritty rivet]

Yes, it sounds like you're doing fine but overreacting to inevitable n00b mistakes. As long as you do your best to learn from such mistakes, that's the best anyone can really expect

[true harness]

how do you push a commit twice, seems interesting tbh

[near remnant]

Thanks mate

[vapid jay]

i have seen senior devs just run on a single testbranch + live and everything was committed to that branch

[near remnant]

Honestly, im shocked that I can handle everything on week two. I see posts about juniors doing almost nothing for months

[vapid jay]

with 10+ devs all throwing their code in there. when i asked why the team lead told me "it's fine if you're not an idiot". and tbf most of the time it went fine but sometimes there was like 10-15 rollbacks a day xD

[true harness]

for big codebases, months is a reasonable time to get up and running

[vapid jay]

depends on the company, some don't let juniors do anything. also tbh i don't understand those junior senior things. is it like some kind of official designation or something? is there a normative standard for who is who? or is it just titulatory masturbation?

[near remnant]

Yeah, so basically, i should not be depressed

[vapid jay]

depends. for a fuckup while coding? nah. but you may have others reasons to be, i can't make a judgement on that.

[near remnant]

Lmao, i mean, depressed about making a git mistake

[vapid jay]

does anyone else work for a company that uses a random mix of excel files with ps1 scripts to basically bandaid every technical debt problem? im tired of looking for "new-version2objectupdater(3).ps1" and puting my user input into "thisIsforVersion2(4).csv" to get something to work

[near remnant]

Nevermind guys

I would be surprised if they fired me during probation after I solved 7 tasks in one week

Ms anxiety is that I get fired during probation

[vapid jay]

git is my biggest fear

watch a 7 hour git tutorial to make yourself feel better, at least that's what I did

[lapis wind]

I used to do some work where entire financial systems were programmed in Excel and then transferred to a custom Python DSL which wrote like Excel 😅

[near remnant]

Im fine with git. I used it before but on my own. But at a company its different. But I guess..should give it time.

[vapid jay]

like i said before, at least you dont have a source control of (random scripts and csvs thrown into a massive shared drive that only 10 veterans can navigate)

[near ocean]

You'd have to do some really wild shit to get fired, like punch a coworker

[near remnant]

I talked to the senior and he told me its fine, its not a mistake. But i feel like it is and i feel bad as sht.

[vapid jay]

also think about it this way. If a company is not setting up their CI/CD pipeline in a way that lets you undo any mistake at any time with relatively little effort, thats on higher level management for not setting up a fault tolerant system in the first place. Not fixing it is just laziness and complacency, not your fault.

[true harness]

not in the us! where you can be fired for pretty much anything

[near remnant]

I think im way overreacting. I told the senior coworker about the mistake and he told me just push it dont worry. But i still worry ☠️☠️

Im stupid

[vapid jay]

I think your anxiety will be cured when you get a better understanding of how your company has fault tolerance in place to actively prevent any one person for really hurting anything by accident. People make mistakes all the time. I promise, the system is designed to know you will make a mistake.

[near ocean]

There's no at will employment in europe tho, pretty strong workers rights making it really hard to get fired even if youre underperforming

[true harness]

yep. the US kinda sucks wrt that

[near remnant]

Thanks guys for the help!

[vapid jay]

what is a reasonable amount of money to be paid as an engineer in your first 3 years of experience?

That question is so open ended..

[lapis wind]

that is incredibly open ended 😅 with probably the most generic answer - it depends.

[gilded valley]

What country? I'd expect it to be in line with the median software engineer salary for your area

In the US, you can check on a state of metropolitan area level via the BLS

[true harness]

i don't think BLS has breakdowns by experience, does it?

[gilded valley]

No

[true harness]

the BLS does have great breakdowns by state, though. sites like indeed and glassdoor have estimates for specific job titles like "junior whatever" in a specific area, also

[gilded valley]

IMO junior developer is too imprecise, and job titles add so much noise. I know of people with <1 total year experience called senior developer, and plenty of people with 2-4 years who have the senior title

The SO dev survey has remuneration by years of experience+some other cuts, but it doesn't get very geographical

[tawny sinew]

how can I know I'm ready for a junior position? I see a lot of disconnect between what the internet tells me of a python junior developer skillset and the job listings that require stuff like experience with Django, OOP, MVT, PostgreSQL, MySQL, Git etc

[gilded valley]

What country are you in? Do you have a degree?

[tawny sinew]

Bulgaria and I have bachelors in CS

[gilded valley]

If you already have a bachelors, I don't think it's a good idea to wait until your skills hit some arbitrary point - I think the best bet is to apply away, and probably practice just generic coding in your spare time

[vapid jay]

Usa, no degree. I'm getting mixed signals from different sources. I am in the right range for base salary, but I get 0 equity, and equity is not recorded for salary averages.

[gilded valley]

don't focus too much on specific requirements, if you see things pop up a ton (like git) they're worth looking into, but don't make it a barrier to applying for the role

[tawny sinew]

I'm already working on learning the most common algorithms, practice with the different data types and have done a lot of junior level projects, but looking at the job listings requirements is overwhelming and I'm not sure I can apply to these jobs

[vapid jay]

So I feel like I'm maybe missing out

[gilded valley]

Ignore the requirements, as long as you're accurately communicating what you are good at on your CV, then it's up to the hiring manager to decide whether you're good enough or not

[vapid jay]

Might I suggest looking bigger picture and understanding overall architecture design? It helped me get over imposter syndrome once I knew how systems were designed from beginning to end. I suggest reading (
Designing Data-Intensive Applications: The Big Ideas Behind Reliable, Scalable, and Maintainable Systems
Book by Martin Kleppmann)

[tawny sinew]

thanks for the suggestions 🙂

[tawny sinew]

guess I'll shoot some CVs and see how it goes

[vapid jay]

Shooting out your CV isn't the way to do this. You should put on your detective hat and start researching the positions that interest you. Use Linkedin to find internal employees / current team members / hiring managers , and contact them directly to express your interest in the position. Also, ask internal employees for a direct recommendation to the position. In the USA, internal employees get bonuses when they provide a recommendation that goes through the entire process and gets hired. This is what we call generating warm leads. Your odds of getting a response and genuine consideration for the position go WAYYYYYY up when you do this. Once you make first contact with the hiring managers, continue reaching out to them to check the status of your application. Keep on them until you get an interview, or a no.

[vapid jay]

If you cold apply by just submitting a CV, you rely on your experience to get you a position. When you are starting out, this will not work for you. Give them more than a CV, give them a face, a personality, an actual human that they can associate with your CV. It is easy to dehumanize people when you just see them as 1 of 100 pieces of paper. Leveraging soft skills and direct communication is hands down the best way to get your foot in the door for these entry level positions.

[tawny sinew]

thanks for the tips, however around my regions there aren't that many companies searching for python engineers, right now the number of places I can apply to I can count on the fingers of my hand

[near ocean]

Getting that first job is the hardest, you cant give every position you apply to a face, personality, you barely have time to write a cover letter
Its a numbers game

[tawny sinew]

but I think I can make it, there are a few places I can apply right now, but if I get some experience with Django it will really increase the odds of success

so I'm gonna spend 1-2 more weeks working with Django and then I will use that extra experience to help me with interviews

[vapid jay]

I would have to say that this is not true. I have seen countless people talking about how they have applied to 50+ organizations and have no response yet. I have done this for every position I have ever had, and I have never had an interview go bad, because I was already friendly with the person in charge of making the hiring decision.

I have gotten questions wrong, showed some lack of understanding needed / expected, been told "you're too junior for this, but I think you can get you up to speed in no time". I was actively told that my soft skills made me out perform more qualified engineers. It happens some times. Nobody wants to hang out with a stick in the mud

[near ocean]

Not talking about the interview, but the step before that, hearing back from an initial application

[tawny sinew]

this honestly feels like ladder anxiety in SC2 😄

[near ocean]

Theres so many juniors in the world, youre not going to hear back from all the application you make

[vapid jay]

Arguably this is the exact reason that you need to do extra effort in fostering a relationship with the senior manager and hiring manager

To each their own I suppose

[vapid jay]

Have you any experience working with frameworks before?

I know when I first started with Django, it was my first framework, I was sooo confused. Frameworks are a big jump for most people. Going from basic scripting to application development can be overwhelming. Is there anything you are struggling with understanding?

The MVC/MVT concept in general was a big head spin for me

[tawny sinew]

well my goal isn't to master it, just to get some basic experience since most junior dev applications list any experience with Django as a bonus, it would increase my chances to get a call

[vapid jay]

I have to be honest I have only been developing on frameworks for like 3 weeks now 😂 , that doesn't stop me from building internal enterprise applications with it though. Some day they might figure out I have no idea what im doing

I'm currently rebuilding all of my synchronous functions that I used in an independent script and migrating it to an asynchronous version used in my Django app and my head hurts

[true harness]

i think they said there were only a few places they could apply. in this case, i think a more personalized approach might be better

[near ocean]

Hm must have missed some chat history, i only see that theyre from bulgaria and theyre asking about python related tech they see on job ads

[true harness]

here

[near ocean]

Ah, right before i replied, missed it

[tawny sinew]

well I try my best and see what happens

[vapid jay]

It cant be worse than playing diamond/master games of SC2 lol

[tawny sinew]

shh diamond is where I get destroyed 🙂

[vapid jay]

I couldn't emotionally handle getting cannon rushed every game 😂

i might just be bad though

[near ocean]

Have you considered applying to other countries? Bulgaria is in the EU, might be easier to move

[tawny sinew]

definitely but I want to get some experience locally, my goal is to eventually move to France because I really like the country, started studying french as well

[inland iron]

has anyone read "Head First Object-Oriented Analysis and Design" as a python developer and benefited from it? I know the examples are written in Java, will I understand it?

[peak halo]

People don't really use Java style OOP in Python. I doubt it would be very helpful for you, unless you plan to start learning Java and/or C++ and apply the concepts in those languages.

[inland iron]

I'm mainly looking into getting the concepts drilled in my brain, mainly when training problem solving I write in C or C++, just wondering if I'll even understand the book

[peak halo]

C doesn't support OOP. And I'm not sure that there's any inherent virtue in, for example, memorizing OOP design patterns.

If you're trying to "drill concepts into your brain", you're probably doing it wrong. You'll learn the concepts when you're repeatedly in situations where those concepts are relevant.

[inland iron]

yes I know C doesn't support it,
you're absolutely right, but it's the lack of knowledge in oop design patterns is what I'm trying to solve, can't be competent in something that I don't even know it exists 😅

so I might've misspoke, maybe just to be aware of the oop concepts

[vapid jay]

hi, I have a question. What should I learn to be able to make user accounts on instagram. Like a account creator with captcha verification

like a script that makes them, and to control them

[peak halo]

I've never actually heard anyone talk about OOP design patterns outside of software engineering courses. But maybe other people have had a different experience.

[peak halo]

This is against the Instagram terms of service. Please do not ask again. This is a warning.

[vapid jay]

ok I didn't know

[inland iron]

wow, really? well I'm just a fresh hire trying to rush my way into seniority haha,
was wondering what could help me, and knowledge of design patterns; how and when to use one over the other etc.. was my first thought

[vapid jay]

Hi everyone, how do I streamline my learning process to attain "recruitable" skills in the field of Data Science? When do you know you are good enough for the job? And what is the best way to get into a starter position?

[delicate bane]

where are you on your educational journey? typically data science roles will look for graduate degrees at a minimum

[vapid jay]

I am close to finishing my BEng in Aerospace Engineering but I want to switch careers to the field of data science. I already have some foundation in Python and SQL but to a lesser extend data science. I have worked on several projects using python think of developing simulations and other engineering related practices. Recently I have started to "compete" in kaggle competitions to get familiar with basic practices like data preprocessing, feature engineering, setup a ML model etc. But I feel like I lack a sort of overview, call it a check list of skills I need to learn to become wanted in the field. I don't think a degree in Computer Science/Data Science is paramount to my success. But I am curious what you think or whether you have been in a similar position.

And on top of that: when do you know you master a certain topic, or that you are good enough to pursue a certain role? I know for a fact that software engineers in general often have an imposter syndrom, always wondering whether they are good enough or that they feel like they are bluffing with certain skills. It just makes it hard for me to place myself in this field and to compare my skills to that of others. And as a consequence I don't have a clear goal of when I am proficient enough

[peak halo]

Do you have any formal experience with data science or ml? I would just start applying for AI jobs that you could do once you graduate, but you might need to seriously consider grad school in CS.

[vapid jay]

I don't have any formal experience with data science or ml. It is all self taught pretty much. I did a minor in CS (a bit of data science) and Python is something I am quite proficient in for engineering purposes. But not applied to this specific field.

I am considering pursuing a masters that involves a lot of programming or during which I can choose ML/AI electives. I just cannot become a CS grad at this point because of the prerequisites I am missing.

[gritty rivet]

One way to know is to simply apply for jobs for which you meet most of the requirements. If you can't get any interviews, you probably need to work on your skills, or at least your resume. If you get hired, then you've demonstrated the knowledge they are looking for. Of course you'll still feel lost half the time but that's normal

[peak halo]

A few of my coworkers have engineering degrees rather than CS ones. I think they either got masters in CS or interned with our company.

[vapid jay]

Interesting take. I have tried it several times, and I often manage to get a second interview but in the end there is always a better candidate with more formal work experience. Even if it is a starters position...

[vapid jay]

Unfortunately I cannot get a masters in CS but I could definitely get into a software position depending on how I develop my skill set regardless of my masters degree. I have also seen aerospace engineers in Software Engineering roles for example.

I simply just don't know where to start. I am just doing projects to the best of my ability but I cannot tell if it is good or not. For example if I do a competition on kaggle and get an average score. Does that make me bad or am I proficient enough to call myself qualified in X, Y and Z? It's just messed up for me atm and I hope someone can point me in the right direction

Am I a lost case? 😣 @peak halo @delicate bane @gritty rivet

[smoky quest]

Not a lost case.
Just recognizing that the further away you are from the ideal profile, the more effort you are going to have to put in.

[peak halo]

You're in a much better position than someone with a non-STEM degree. I don't know if you'll be successful or not. I hope that you will be.

[vapid jay]

Honestly, I am fine with that. I am planning to get seriously in the industry in about three years time as I know it is not possible overnight. I just don't know what to do to attain the right skill set apart from randomly learning stuff by doing. And also not knowing if a certain model is good enough because there is no definite outcome.

[vapid jay]

I know but it is hard to stay motivated if you don't know what to do to get where you want to be.

[fervent spindle]

Hey what do you think about XR developer?

[gritty rivet]

That's encouraging... if you're patient and persistent and keep improving however you can, I'm sure you'll get your break eventually

[spare edge]

Hello, I'm looking for someone who could be a mentor for me and help me progress into a junior software engineer role from where I am at currently.

[brisk arch]

no sorry

sry for late reply tho lmfao

[silk nacelle]

hey

anyone fimiliar with the requests library?

[graceful mason]

#python-discussion #web-development

[dense mesa]

My work basically exclusively uses OOP design patterns for everything

[honest pivot]

yeah, I also use a bunch of Java-like OOP patterns in Python...but to be fair, I learned OOP originally with Java, and I designed most of our code.

[blissful hollow]

Is sending CV's to companies for a remote internship/part-time job a good idea?
I don't see offers around my area for my tech stack or level of experience.

[delicate meteor]

if anyone have any task for me to help him or her, just shoot at me relating to hardcore data analysis, and machine learning prediction

[gilded valley]

This is wrong. It is a perfectly viable strategy.

The two strategies for getting a job without connections are to put a tiny amount of effort into many applications, or a lot of effort into a few. There are positives and negatives to both, but ultimately it's not remotely clear cut which is better

[delicate meteor]

yeah, what do you want?

[jagged forge]

And the mental endurance of the applicant. I know some can get pretty depressed after sending 10 unique letters and still get rejected.

[gilded valley]

I found it much more depressing putting a ton of effort into one application and getting ghosted than mechanically applying to 10-20 or so a day for a week

[blissful hollow]

I generally agree, if it was for full time job. But i can't afford it. There isn't many positions openly available, and those which are, are hybrid work at best. I don't mind visiting 1-2 per month but 60/40 were best available thus far.

[buoyant seal]

indeed. 30+ applications and u don't already care about particular ones too much
mechanically grading parameters of a job already xD
and then comparing jobs where u got offer

[jagged forge]

Yea using the law of large numbers there. Apply to 20+, get response from 1.

[peak halo]

This channel isn't for those kinds of questions.

[grim spruce]

is this true?

[vapid jay]

Takes a true genius to optimize the code so much that it's actually fewer lines than before I guess lol

[grim spruce]

Is it true in practice that ppl in general who make a living through coding write too much?

[balmy spade]

Are any memes true or false?

[smoky quest]

How does that relate to this channel?

It's not a channel for shitposting

[vapid jay]

#career-advice message

followed message is considered shitposting

[smoky quest]

It is, and why it died pretty quickly.
Two wrongs don't make one right

[vapid jay]

ok guys come here to talk about careers (i’m still inefficient and i’ve been coding for 8 years)

[true pulsar]

Hey I am going to Grade 11 and want to pick Computer science (smthing related to code)
Can someone tell me what this subject consists of [Like what programming languages and stuff]

[smoky quest]

!rule 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[blissful hollow]

Syllabus and schedule should be publicly available.

[silk nacelle]

Thanks but i fixed it

[zealous fiber]

hi

[dense mesa]

Unironically true

[delicate meteor]

!rule 8

[inner wren]

Rules

8. Do not help with ongoing exams. When helping with homework, help people learn how to do the assignment without doing it for them.

[timid condor]

do i have to pursue ML/AI to be able to get paid for using my python skills, i don't like AI 💀

[buoyant seal]

I pursue web development instead of this. It works fine to me

[timid condor]

Oh happy to hear that, what kind of frameworks do you work with.

i have a little experience with flask and i know a bit django

[buoyant seal]

Django and fastAPI
Other stuff pursued is mentioned here
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/darklab8/darklab_backend_roadmap/master/swe_backend.drawio.svg
SQL is obligatory

[timid condor]

Woah ! that's a whole lotta stuff

good job with the map tho

[delicate meteor]

You don't just like AI but whatabout Machine Learning, data manipulation and stuff?

[timid condor]

I had to take AI in college and it was very overwhelming and those algorithms were kinda boring too, after finishing the semester i never looked back 💀

[delicate meteor]

hahahaha! well, that's because you haven't don something very difficult with Machine Learning, hence, it seems boring to you..But i am glad i know Machine learning and Ai

i have made some money from it doing tough analysis and applying machine learning on the data with deep learning model like LSTM..

Anyways, i am happy you went for what you love the most

[gritty rivet]

!rules 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[gritty rivet]

@ruby flower

[ruby flower]

oh sorry sir. i have to delete it

[gritty rivet]

Good call 🙂 There is a different Discord server associated with r/dataengineering and they may have different rules

I would also try LinkedIn

[edgy leaf]

Hey everyone 🙂

I started Python 4 days ago coming from a Technical BA background. Never thought it would enjoy it but I am 🙂

[delicate bane]

congrats

hope it helps you fulfill your career goals

[turbid dome]

anyone here freelance on the side? i am bored and would like to try it, how does one start freelancing without a portfolio?

[vapid jay]

I have a question do y'all think programing has a future?
what I mean is with a lot of schools and parents pushing programing to there children
and learning programing is as easy as a google search
don't you think the next generation will have /too much/ programmers witch will decrease programmers wages significantly ?

[gilded valley]

Programming is no different to any other field in that it's "just a Google search away". Think about the similarities and differences between programming and e.g mechanical engineering then try to articulate why one is easier to pick up than the other

[gentle plume]

Do you need a degree to be a software developer (in usa)?

[peak halo]

If you're a young person with no professional experience, it will be very difficult to get a developer job without one.

[white relic]

I wonder what percent of people you think are actually "pushing" programming on their children / students?
I know for at least one local high school here the number is 0

[delicate bane]

stel +1 for pinned message about degrees

but i know, we've talked about this. i just cant help but think about it every time i see one of these messages

[gentle plume]

ah ok, i'm 14 that has been programming for the past weeks any tips then (still learning the basics)

[delicate bane]

i would say keep exploring, trying new things. that should help you stay motivated as you keep learning.

[gentle plume]

👍

[vapid jay]

idk where you are from , but where I am from , every single school is required by the law to tell kids to learn programing , and also give them basic knowledge of programing

[ebon oak]

It's extremly difficult without a portfolio, do some side projects..

[turbid dome]

that's fair, any recommendations for building a good portfolio?

[ebon oak]

anything fun to show-off your skills

https://rick-astley-nextfix-project.on.drv.tw/public/

[turbid dome]

do they have to be open sourced? i got some closed sourced things on the side

[ebon oak]

What do you mean closed source?? It'll be better to show you code, That's what I meant by "Show-off"-ing.

[turbid dome]

some project that makes me money, so obviously i can't be sharing the code with anyone, i.e. closed source

well okay, i get the gist, no portfolio = no freelancing, time to build something..

[white relic]

Then I think your perspective of the world might be a little bit skewed, probably also you underestimate the amount of effort it takes to be decent enough at programming to make a job of it.
I learned a lot of stuff in high school; it's the school's job (IMO) to teach a variety of stuff and expose students to a wide range of things. But it's not like I could fall back on high school biology classes to get a job in a medical lab.

[vapid jay]

good argument

[white relic]

Even that ignores that a large part of most programming jobs isn't programming, but requirements definition, testing, data management, stuff like that. Those skills are useful everywhere and people who have them are often paid well regardless of what their actual job function is. But they aren't taught in schools at all

anyway, no, I think programming has a future as a career. I'd be more worried about the machines taking over than about competition from a glut of people who took a class in high school. (But the machines won't take over, either)

[pastel quail]

at the high school level (at least at my school), we aren't taught enough programming to be able to solve problems that are actually interesting, challenging, or relevant. most people end up disinterested because they think it's boring and straightforward since they've just been taught syntax and nothing else. 😔

[white relic]

sounds about right

[dense mesa]

Point sorta makes sense but it's not an easy discipline to learn, demand is growing according to whatever popular market research company is doing reports, and it's hard to forecast future wages

[zealous fiber]

Hi

Do you know any like part time job or something that I do sometimes with python

Like what would you reccomend me doing, o search on YouTube and most of the times I find those clickbait videos saying become a milionarie or some stuff like that, but like I would even like a small amount of money

[dense mesa]

People freelance on Fiverr or other gig sites, but supply is large for relatively small demand

[zealous fiber]

I have been wondering for some time, I got pretty much a basic but solid python knowledge, I started in 2019 but always quit

[zealous fiber]

It’s just that I don’t know what to do in fiverr ecc.

I am also a minor so

[dense mesa]

Look for what services people are offering, join communities aligned with this stuff and see what problems people are having that they would pay to solve

[dense mesa]

That's gonna make it a lot harder, if you really need the money there's usually retail/service, otherwise just spend your time learning

[zealous fiber]

I don’t really need the money but I would really like to do some, even small amounts

[vapid jay]

Hi. I'm an undergraduate student right now pursuing Computer Science, with an interest in front-end dev. If I aspire to work as a product analyst/manager in the future, what master's should I pursue? Preferably an MSc that's not general CS.

[zealous fiber]

But also I was in general wondering what type of programs should I do to make money

[zealous fiber]

Do you know any?

[dense mesa]

I was part of a few PM (product not project that is) communities, most people did a few years as engineers and transitioned out that way. Masters wasn't necessary

[zealous fiber]

But I should make a portfolio first so it’s better if I make it now

[vapid jay]

but i wanna get a master's so i can be a bit ahead of everyone else during the job hunt

[dense mesa]

@zealous fiber for types of programs, look at the freelancing websites to get an idea. For communities, stuff like /r/smallbusiness, /r/startups and so on, join and see what people are complaining about

[zealous fiber]

Thx, do you think I should make a portfolio first?

[dense mesa]

It doesn't necessarily work that way, sometimes a year of experience is more important than a masters

[dense mesa]

Yes that would be good

[vapid jay]

oh ok thanks

[white relic]

also you can get a company to pay for a master's while you're doing the experience bit and get a bump in pay when you're done

[smoky quest]

to add color to it, the more technical the topic, the more would it help.
But the same argument could also be made about some business degree.

PMs are required to do a lot of different things

[strange hull]

Hey! so not really career but may impact, I was wondering if programming would help in my college application?
like if anyone's been there before, is it worth spending time making something in hopes that it looks good on your college app?

[wheat roost]

Is anyone here from Ireland?

I have some doubts regarding studying for masters there.

[smoky quest]

it depends
It comes down to how much you enjoy it, the degrees you would apply to, if that specific college would care about it and if there is something else you could do.

That said, if you are expecting to apply for CS degrees, it doesn't appear you would be that motivated?

[strange hull]

oh ser I enjoy programming very much \💀 defo will be going for cs only

[sudden jetty]

Guys wuts the easiest way to make money through python

I'm broke kid I need
money

[near ocean]

Get a degree and find a job

[sudden jetty]

I'm 15 ?

[near ocean]

They dont hand out jobs to 15 year olds

[sudden jetty]

Like do u Recommend web design 🤔

Maybe as a start

[near ocean]

That would be the easiest but you probably (definitely) still need a degree

[sudden jetty]

No but as an freelancer

[smoky quest]

maybe let's take a step back: what's the context of your question? Like getting out of school and starting a career or looking for part time job?

[sudden jetty]

Nah I can't drop out cuz I study languages and my country is too weak .soo I'm trying to find like a job where I can make like 150/week or something

[near ocean]

Have you considered a part time job at a cafe or restaurant?

[sudden jetty]

@near ocean I'm 15 cuh

[smoky quest]

yeah, waiter or mowing lawns and other odd jobs will be easier at 15

[near ocean]

You said that already
Youre just not going to find a dev job at 15 my guy, idk what you want us to tell you

[sudden jetty]

No I want a job to make my skills better in python

[smoky quest]

Then look at upwork

[sudden jetty]

@smoky quest wuts up work?

[smoky quest]

A platform for freelancing.

Note however that people are warning you against that because there will be little reasons to hire you over other freelancers

[sudden jetty]

Oh

@smoky quest 😊 ty

[near ocean]

Upwork says you need to be at least 18 to use its services

https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/211067778-Eligibility-to-Join-and-Use-Upwork

[analog sun]

Hello, please respect channel topics and do not post unapproved advertising

[remote merlin]

Can I do a Masters in AI or NLP with BS in IT?

[gritty rivet]

It will depend on the specific programs but if you take the right electives it should be possible. Just compare the requirements of the programs you are considering carefully

Worst case, you need some extra classes

Of course doing your BS in CS instead would be the natural choice if you're strongly inclined to do such an MS after

[remote merlin]

I will DM you my catalog

[gritty rivet]

No thanks... I don't mean to be rude but this is a strange request. You can read as well as I can, and people are getting paid to advise students like yourself, and you should bring your questions to them

[remote merlin]

no problem

Sorry it was strange to you

[uncut coyote]

I want to be a software engineer at google

[smoky quest]

go for it!

[uncut coyote]

yes i have a lot of time

[hoary frigate]

Is anybody interested in practicing the system design?

[mild wave]

but how to do that

[smoky quest]

get a CS degree and then an interview

[mild wave]

from where to know that they have started their interview process

[smoky quest]

from the beginning?

[mild wave]

yes

[crystal flume]

Is it good to study both programming and cyber security

A Double degree

[stoic timber]

they're a nice combination, but only if you have the money and time

[boreal notch]

hello everyone!
I'm currently in my final year of engineering and I wanted to ask for suggestions regarding my final year project idea
I'm thinking of making something with machine learning or deep learning...
I've already searched online, couldn't find the apt one

[waxen pasture]

Hello friends! My name is badhu I'm from India. I'm pursuing Bachelors of computer application(BCA) .I appreciate if you have some advise or guideline for my future studies. I really like to get job quickly though

[tired basalt]

.

[brave matrix]

you can do Fiverr, but it's very competitive

[clear temple]

lmao this is the biggest confusion in a teenager's life

[dense mesa]

You in the right place?

[buoyant seal]

answer redirected to off-top ;b #ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval message

[leaden yoke]

What are the top interviewing/mentorship platforms you all would recommend? I want high-level help but not looking to pay a fortune like you see on interviewing.io

[sand rivet]

yo wassup

[delicate bane]

hi this is #career-advice. you are probably looking for #python-discussion or #ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval unless you have a career-related question

[vapid jay]

hey

[plush rover]

How much do web developers get paid on average in the UK, any web developers in this server?

[near ocean]

That depends on where in the UK you work from, the company, what kind of tech you use, a whole list of things

[lapis wind]

The UK is pretty bad in terms of average wage for your standard C# - react web dev kind of setup.

Glassdoor's average statistics:

Region breakdown to give some idea of the average difference in wage by area, although https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/annualsurveyofhoursandearnings/2021 is more indepth

[charred heron]

hello, i want to pursue carrer in prgrammering

[paper badge]

My best advice is to practice a lot

And also do a lot of personal projects

[compact spoke]

hello everyone! i am an aspiring data scientist but would love to research on python as well... any roadmaps or advices for me? i dont like frontend but if its necessary i will learn it. other than that i want to be python centric (i know not healthy for jobs but i have already started preparing for my business analyst job... so no issues in that case)

[buoyant seal]

https://towardsdatascience.com/data-science-learning-roadmap-for-2021-84f2ba09a44f
from visual stuff, data scientists are usually required to learn outputing with matplotlib and other data science specific ecosystem for plots/graphs and etc

@compact spoke i would also recommend checking this message #career-advice message

[compact spoke]

thanks a lot @buoyant seal any other stuff that i can learn to research over python?

@buoyant seal yep had my superiors say that cleaning will be the majority work and do it well

[lilac rune]

Hey everyone... I just joined the server and am interested in python
My passion is for ml and ai

[buoyant seal]

i am not data scientist, but as far as i get, u a expected to learn
Higher math of university level in 50 shades of flavours + Data engineering + Some software engineering + Data science + Eventually AI/ML
I can only recount what i remember as discipline names from existing higher math
but i would say the only where i can really help in saying path to software engineering

[compact spoke]

but i keep numpy and pandas as my abilities to manipulate data but majority of my time and dedication goes towards ML/AI algos because if the models arent strong enough... whats the point of wasting time to clean data. right?

[compact spoke]

ahh for python research its mostly maths and data science? maths is my weakpoint but lets see hehe

[buoyant seal]

as far as i know yeah, math + software engineering = data science

[compact spoke]

@buoyant seal so in the world data science is at the most priority in python right?

[buoyant seal]

technically i would python is divided between being used for data science/machine learning, and for web development (backend development, and a bit as small glue to devops stuff (some tools like docker-compose / ansible were born with python))
There are a bit more niche case usages though

[buoyant seal]

https://github.com/vinta/awesome-python#devops-tools
probably the easiest to say what for python is used in total sum, is to see curated list by categories of python libs

[compact spoke]

wow. those things have seemed to complicate my mind a lot but i hope to move deep and high into this field. java and c++ language were hard for me inspite of being a computer degree student... so i hope python helps me well

[buoyant seal]

i did not like C++ despite being graduated computer degree student as well. That's normal xD. C# was much more comfortable

[compact spoke]

thank you so much. whatever help youtube and websites couldnt do... u did it. thanks so much ❤️ @buoyant seal

[buoyant seal]

xD i learn by books and practicing at work and in pet projects. This interesting list i caught from book Expert Python Programming 4th edition during first chapters to setup dev envornment. Quite rich book for useful stuff in general to see full scope of python capabilities

[compact spoke]

imma purchase the book now hehe.

[buoyant seal]

https://github.com/darklab8/darklab_backend_roadmap/blob/master/swe_backend.drawio.svg
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/darklab8/darklab_backend_roadmap/master/swe_backend.drawio.svg
I map my own roadmap, which gives hints what to learn for backend development path. Green skills are there Software enginerring generic skills which... computer degree student is supposed to have learnt ( my university did not teach me that though) (see full legend map at the left-bottom, decribing present stuff in the map. I also mention books to learn to reach the skills)

[compact spoke]

@buoyant seal my uni taught me during pandemic and hence it went over us XD

thanks a lot. will check them out. suddenly my confidence has increased 🙂

[buoyant seal]

it is good to be confident in walking your path ;b confidence can be a sign of finally seeing the goal to which u a going (i was glad when was finally able to map majority of my path to final role as well) + confidence can be helpful to sell yourself for better salary.
Just don't be ever overconfident and assuming u know everything ;b Learning never stops in the career of IT people.
even when u reach middle/senior rank, u know nothing in comparison to geniuses who wrote awesome books that helped u to reach it / or people like Linus Torvald xD imagine understanding all of this stuff that deeply and able to write books and sharing it with others... that would be a goal nice to reach

[compact spoke]

@buoyant seal haha i am never overconfident. i assume with the fact that everyone knows more and better coding than me and i have to catch up to them. i might be overconfident in many things and i assure u coding aint one of them... if i ever be like elon musk or smth it will be a miracle for me i assure u

[buoyant seal]

and that's good. I usually see that when people become overconfident, they stop their education. kind of sad to see people stopping just in their beginning.

[carmine scaffold]

I'm looking to be a software engineer, or just somebody who sells software. What kind of languages (other than python) should I learn?

[buoyant seal]

for which platform do u wish to develop, Web development, Linux desktop/server stuff, Windows, Android mobile development, Macbooks, IOS mobile development
Each language has its own niche usage cases. 🙂

[carmine scaffold]

Well... I haven't decided yet really. Perhaps Windows/Linux desktop type stuff

[smoky quest]

What's your situation?
If you are in high school or college age, a degree will be the most straightforward route with the most opportunities

[carmine scaffold]

I am planning on getting a degree, nothing serious as of now.

[buoyant seal]

During getting degree u will eventually get exposed to multiple languages, and multiple target platforms for which u develop, esecually if u are active in additional activities.
Consider degree as being teenhood where person tries a little bit of everything to decide who he is. Degree is nice to discover whom u wish to be in IT world
Eventually for(or after) graduation more deep specialization would have to be chosen though for deeper dive into some target platform ecosystem and language capabilities

[smoky quest]

Then languages are just tools to an end. Not a mean in themselves. That means you can look at it that way:

• What project do you want to do? From there you can look at the best tool/language for it
• You could want to learn languages to expand your mind and ways of thinking. In which case the end result doesn't matter as much. You could look at erlang, prolog, ocaml, java or rust

oh yeah, developing for a cluster of servers will be quite different than developing in a constrained environment

[lilac rune]

This is truly helpful
Thanks

[carmine scaffold]

thank u bro

[leaden yoke]

What are the top interviewing/mentorship platforms you all would recommend? I want high-level help but not looking to pay a fortune like you see on interviewing.io

[buoyant seal]

i would not risk using any third party platforms. but udemy seems to start gaining my trust though due to high amount of more highly likely truthful reviews for any of its learning courses https://www.udemy.com/course/master-the-coding-interview-big-tech-faang-interviews/?src=sac&kw=interviews

• cheap always too (anything within 100$ i consider ultra cheap in the world of tutorship) xD in fact they have discount for interviewing course ending soon

[remote merlin]

Will AI replace all cybersecurity jobs?

[near ocean]

No

[dense mesa]

No

[remote merlin]

It is reported that 41% will be replaced

[remote merlin]

https://www.zdnet.com/article/ai-set-to-replace-humans-in-cybersecurity-by-2030-says-trend-micro/

[dense mesa]

90% of statistics are made up on the spot

[near ocean]

Thats literally an opinion piece

[remote merlin]

Oh ok

[remote merlin]

I was so happy of my major till I saw this. Thank you clearing it up for me!

[remote merlin]

Got it

[near ocean]

I wish AI was more advanced to take my job, maybe I could have it automate maintaining shit legacy code instead of doing it manually

[dense mesa]

That statistic was also made up

[delicate bane]

now i know why people move companies...so they dont have to maintain legacy code

haha half-kidding

[lapis wind]

This was basically 50% of the reason for me 😅

That and not wanting to deal with C# or both in most cases.

[delicate bane]

[delicate bane]

both
omg literally my company

we had an exec bash all the dotnet developers in the dept the other day since apparently there is a certain...stereotype about them..?

[lapis wind]

Idk, IMO though I found writing and developing stuff in C# thoroughly unrewarding/unengaging, because basically you only do one thing, use the libraries that MS has made for you, throw them together for some standard Asp.NET and entity Framework app or some CMS and that's basically it.

There was one project that I was prototyping for in C# and went out to look at what the ecosystem offered and was greeted with the "okay the ecosystem is either dead or still on Net Framework" feeling.

[delicate bane]

oooof this is good to know

the longer i can get away with not doing things in this language, the better it sounds like

[lapis wind]

I'll say that it is very much personal preference, I know a lot of people that like the language and like the fact that its all the same sorta stuff.

[buoyant seal]

@lapis wind https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXzTXD_OJo0

[delicate bane]

"its like they stole from java and javascript" 💀

[buoyant seal]

"Just use something that is not supported in C#, and it will suddenly be supported before u know 🙂 . It is like they are sending your code in crash reports 😐 😦 " https://youtu.be/bXzTXD_OJo0?t=642

[pastel cloak]

Hey what's a good source to get started on AWS for ML/Infra?

[smoky quest]

you may want to ask on #data-science-and-ml . This is not really related to #career-advice

[pastel cloak]

Okay, np