career-advice

[smoky quest]

surveys and such

I don't want to give specific numbers as I don't have them on top of my head

But that's also you would see a heavy bias towards speeches about "get into school for your degree"

[tidal pine]

Ah, I see. That's good though, it's better for interested people to have a place to see if what draws them will remain sticky and hook them in for longer than a passing flight of fancy.

[icy spire]

and today another day of sending CV 🫡
eh, I'm a little tired of this

[oak thicket]

Hello guys... i need help with webscraping..

please somebody help me with webscraping.. im tired of hours of searching, its a small thingy that i cant manage to pass, please somebody who understands this to contact me :C

[gritty rivet]

Don't ask to ask, just ask your question here or in a help channel. If it's against ToS though, forget it, not on this server

[timid hemlock]

Dear Python Gurus, please assist! I have almost 0 experience coding and I am taking a course via youtube. Are there any recommendations on how I should tailor my education to focus on cyber security engineering?
Also any book recommendations would be appreciated, I want to learn the skills and basic knowledge of programming through python before branching to other languages I would need and working at a specific firm so that I have the applicable job experience for my dream job.
Or tell me none of this matters and go finish my courses before I ask more dumb questions lol

[gritty rivet]

If the current course is keeping you engaged, just go with it. A lot of people like the book Automate The Boring Stuff for beginners if you haven't looked at that. But if your focus is cybersecurity, stay focused on that. You only need to learn the basics of Python to start applying it, and applying it is how you really learn.. I'm sure there are courses and books that focus on Python for cybersecurity but that's not my area.

Also keep in mind that this is the career channel, if you have more learning questions they may be more relevant to #python-discussion or #cybersecurity . Good luck!

[frigid wagon]

I like that book, Automate the boring stuff, but the biggest issue I hvae with it, is that most of those examples, are so far from what boring stuff i have.

having said, that Im actually automating my entire trading strategy, and purchase/sell decisions, along with our entire financial reporting setup in python.

[meager raven]

Hello, is the any such pre-requisite (that should i learn) before starting matplotlib?

my basic command on python is also going well

[gilded valley]

This isn't the right channel. Try #python-discussion

[tacit mulch]

Anyone here pivoted from healthcare industry into tech?

[open ivy]

Trying to commoditize programming is like trying to solve the halting problem.

[delicate bane]

yes. its possible

[buoyant seal]

there are also quite a bunch of healthcare projects in tech 🙂

[tacit mulch]

Cool! I guess the hard part is finding them or knowing the key words to search for lol

[jade rampart]

I think I want to get into JS for various reasons, app development, web development, and maybe for sole other things but mainly for web dev.

AFAIK, you can code the frontend with JS and the backend lf a web with python. Do you think knowing these two languages will help to power my career? is it a combination firms look for?

thanks 🙂

[buoyant seal]

Sure. Although to be completely fair it is possible to code frontend with JS and backend with JS
if u aim to be JS oriented... kind of makes sense learning backend in JS too, while actually not going to python

[buoyant seal]

If to say it in jokes:

[jade rampart]

Well if I can do the same backend in JS than in Python, I'd probably do python just to avoid forgetting it, but I also use it for other things

[buoyant seal]

Makes sense. Backend in python would be always nicer than in JS i think

Javascript is extremely... niche language fulfilling its job

[jade rampart]

But the frontend cant be developed in Python, so JS and a Framework would be the best choice, right?

[buoyant seal]

Knowing python backend opens you to bigger market share + chance to participate in data science/ML oriented projects is 10x multiplied

[jade rampart]

Then I think JS is my next language. Do you have any recommended discord servers??

[buoyant seal]

Yes, frontend can't be developed in python. At least not yet. It started to change though
https://github.com/appcypher/awesome-wasm-langs
Web assembly way becoming to... become mature and popular
So it is possible to write frontend already in rust and dozens of multiple languages. It is just not mature for python yet.
And frontend JS will dominate anyway for long time due to really high occupied market share at the moment

[jade rampart]

Oh Ill need to learn HTML and CSS also I forgot 😭

[jade rampart]

Cant wait for python to be a language that can do EVERYTHING

[buoyant seal]

well, as i said u a technically able, it is just having sooooooooooo small market share that nobody would agree to building frontend in python
Bad choice for maintenance xD And to attract other devs for that

[jade rampart]

hahaha

So JS HTML and CSS for web dev 😭 thats a lot

[buoyant seal]

Yeah. You will. Recommending SCSS on top of CSS. Makes usage of CSS really nice

[buoyant seal]

HTML/CSS/JS only package is relatively easy to grasp at junior level. I needed only 2 weeks to consume books... and well to practice a month-two to have it on reflex.

[jade rampart]

So I estimate around 4 months to be able to create solid projects right?

[buoyant seal]

Well. in 4 months u can do small frontend projects reliably at junior level for sure 🙂 if u are having already previous programming experience to grasp them quickly

at least if you chose vue.js as your frontend framework. ecosystem of React.js is more nastier and ambigious as far as i heard. And Angular is having long learning curve too apperently... as it requires doing it in Typescript from the start, no JS option in it 😦

[stray flint]

Anyone made a late career switch into Python Developer?

[jade rampart]

So Vue

Thanks so much @buoyant seal

[buoyant seal]

Beware. React is having 2-3 times higher job market share/more job vanacies. If you are choosing JS/Frontend as your main career, you have to learn React much more preferably.

Vue.js and Angular are having 2-3 times less job market share

[buoyant seal]

around 20% of job market for Vue.js in the world is super high too though. Kind of already more than enough. 20% from entire world xD but still i told you situation

[night shell]

hai everyone

I am new to coding can anyone suggest where can I start learning python

[night shell]

is it available as a pdf?

[buoyant seal]

Sure, highly likely. Even if not, nothing prevents it being converted into it

[night shell]

Thank you for the suggestion. Any tips for a beginner

[buoyant seal]

Learn eventually core software engineering skills. Start their learning from Code Complete by McConnel

[night shell]

Thank you for the help. Really appreciate it. Thanks a lot.

[spark cobalt]

Their website has the entire book able to view iirc

https://automatetheboringstuff.com/

[night shell]

Thank you got it.

[vapid jay]

@night shell

[jade rampart]

I dont want this for my main career, But as my secondary skill

[buoyant seal]

Then Vue is better. It is easier and nicer 😉

[jade rampart]

And can do the same?

Knowing myself I'll spend like 6 months learning all of that probably.

[buoyant seal]

U can do most of things the same. React has more low level control for rerender optimizations of DOM which a normal not Frontend user will never need

[jade rampart]

Ok this is stuff I dont understand yet, but if i follow this path, maybe I do.

But I'm aiming for this for probably next year

Anyways, thanks, can I DM you?@buoyant seal

[buoyant seal]

Better ask here xD

[loud mauve]

Ok, I am not sure where to ask, my question is certainly touching Python, but not about it.

I am looking to develop an app for mobiles, 0 coding experience but I have time and motivation. What language should I learn for this?

I saw Java and Kotlin being best 2-3 years ago, but now I saw Python being in top languages, so, is it still Java or tides turned?

[vapid jay]

It's still Java and Kotlin for Android and Swift for iOS

[true harness]

i suspect you're not looking at popularity for mobile dev, rather just overall popularity

[smoky quest]

You may want to explore nocode solutions (I haven't used it but adalo is a name that comes up frequently in that space).
If you want to learn to code, you could also look at flutter or react native that can target both android and ios at the same time.

But also be aware that building a mobile app isn't that easy of quick. I would recommend frontload any validation step ahead to make sure you don't waste your time.

[loud mauve]

I've got time on my hands, but by frontloading you mean to create test design and see if my idea works at all?

[smoky quest]

yeah

[loud mauve]

Any ideas where can I do this?

Microsoft app for this I did in school while ago was buggy af

[smoky quest]

It's starting to be way too off topic. You may want to take it to an off channel and ping me

[patent grove]

anyone know the average salary for a new grad data engineer in the bay?

idk how accurate the numbers are that im seeing on google lol

[smoky quest]

same answer than last time you asked? Or has anything changed?

[wooden plover]

look at levels.fyi

[smoky quest]

Hi @old wadi and @drowsy plinth ,
This is the wrong channel for these questions as they aren't related to #career-advice . You should check out #❓｜how-to-get-help

[balmy turtle]

oh gawd ._. task was simple. Count words in sentences. Find the highest number of words. Tested with random paragraphs from articles and stuff with no problem. There's gotta be some troll sentences in there I couldn't predict...

chance of landing this job just fell through the roof I guess

[gritty rivet]

You never know what will happen. I'm guessing you don't have enough details to figure out the problem but if you can it's worth following up and letting them know

[near ocean]

If you remember the questions and some sample test cases you can open a help channel and go through them to see what you missed #❓｜how-to-get-help

[weary crag]

Hey, I am German student and I am thinking about taking the c1 Cambridge English certificate. Does anybody have experience or knows how much value it brings to my cv? Maybe it does not help that much since German education has a relatively good English level anyways

It’s quite expensive that’s why I am asking

[red yacht]

nononnooonon, Crash course version would be better for a beginner.

[red yacht]

Hey, I also live in DEUTSCHLAND. i mean that c1 certificate will make your cv look better. so go fo it. or a better one is taking the TOEFL exam.

[spiral holly]

Hi Everyone! Are there any other accountants who use python on here? Have you managed to demand a higher rate because of the value python adds?

[weary crag]

Hm okay.
Toefl is better? it’s only valid for two years tho

[true harness]

could i get a review on this? i'm not sure how i feel about separating the libraries by language. i'm also not sure how much detail i should add about chipotle, since i don't think it's very relevant. for reference, I'm in US, I'm a freshman

[near ocean]

I group languages and related tech in mine, you could take out the bullet point in the chipotle entry and squeeze another project in there if you have one

[leaden knot]

I'd take out both the high school and chiptotle, especially for programming-related applications.
I'm not sure why there is only one relevant coursework under your CS degree listing.

[near ocean]

They just started uni so i guess thats why
Maybe remove log4j from your list LMAO

[leaden knot]

ahh, the honors? hmm

[leaden knot]

Are you specifically interested in cryptosecurity by the way? That's what I infer from the cryptogram project. The other two are like generic CS/devops-y

[true harness]

I'm a freshman 😔. I put chipotle since it's my only professional experience

[leaden knot]

Oh right, you have an ML honors, try to make some small ML project out? how developed your project is really depends on you, but I feel like opencv is more code-wise impressive, while other ML projects are a bit more 'solved' code-wise

[leaden knot]

If you can't afford to take out the HS, you can still take out chiptotle. I also know there's a natural aversion to CV whitespace, but in terms of programming jobs it's not really helping much

[leaden knot]

I feel like you can rely more on your uni's prestige more than you can rely on your work experience

[true harness]

I heard having any sort of work experience is beneficial. what are your qualifications?

my uni has no prestige lol

[leaden knot]

Lol, my CV is poor, but I do have a degree, that's all I can say. I put my school projects into my CV, and a short research stint small output in it. I took out my not-so-important internships as soon as I could

[leaden knot]

It's really not a 'bad uni,' from how I check it up. Anyway up to you, it seems JomaTech for example also put his 'McDonalds experience' in his first few CVs

[true harness]

yeah. thanks for the input

[near ocean]

Keep chipotle i think, it shows you've been in a work environment, even if its just cutting veggies
You've communicated with colleagues, you were managed, you performed your role as set out, etc

[delicate bane]

yeah i would. especially since youre still a freshman and im assuming youll be applying for internships/part-time work @true harness

[peak halo]

I had Starbucks on my resume for my first job in industry, but only so that they'd know that I worked during school. I didn't say anything about it except that I got employee of the quarter once. So, you can remove the part about preparing the food, if you want. People know what working at Chipotle involves.

I think your resume looks good, and you're probably in a better spot credential-wise than a lot of CS freshmen. Though it looks like you have extra space between the name of your high school and the items.

If you ever need more space in the future, you can put all your relevant courses on the same line. If you ever take non-major courses that are useful (like a writing course), I would list that as well.

[orchid niche]

Anyone reckon where I could make a quick buck? I got some average skill set as a sophomore.
I tried those freelancer sites but no bueno.
I just need a rig upgrade for tf and simulations stuff.

[peak halo]

We'd appreciate it if you didn't joke about making an OF, as this server is for users as young as 13.

[orchid niche]

aye, I shall edit

[peak halo]

Thanks! Anyway, I unfortunately don't think you're likely to have much luck. It's hard to convince people that you know enough to do what they want, and that you'll do it right. And if you're a sophomore, it isn't really that likely that you do.

You should really aim for getting internships over the summers. Because they'll have people to mentor you, and they can curate your tasking to build on your existing skills. And they might even invite you to stay on part-time during the school year, or become full-time after you graduate.

[true harness]

failing that, a part time job not in tech is also an option. it probably won't pay as much as an internship, but it pays more than not working

[orchid niche]

Duly noted, might take a while to get internships.
Maybe I'll inquire on a nearby maccas or I think I also could haggle my parents.
Much tnx lads.

Also, can I quote you on this one "It's hard to convince people that you know enough to do what they want, and that you'll do it right." It seems fitting for a lot of occasions.

[peak halo]

I'm not a professional quote-maker, but I can't really stop you from saying it. One could also argue that "and that you'll do it right" doesn't supply new information. If you do something incorrectly, then you didn't do what they want.

[orchid niche]

Ye I think could trim that out.
Tnx again.

[dreamy shell]

I think it is, it shows you are versatile (dont kno if the word fits) u get me

diversity in activities does say something about your approach/mentality

[ivory sluice]

!mute 993177043233677422

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @vapid jay until <t:1663975583:f> (1 hour).

[smoky quest]

<@&831776746206265384> troll

[patent grove]

I’m so unsure man. I don’t know the range of what I should expect. These sources are so wide that I don’t know what the true range is. How do I negotiate an offer for this field haha

The last conversation was helpful but I’m trying to get a range of what it is. If anyone knows, like a number Yknow

[smoky quest]

The best argument is another offer on hand.

I did give you numbers last times 😉

[patent grove]

Oh really lol. Shit I have to go back then, sec

[summer roost]

As did I 🙂

[delicate bane]

ah i remember this convo last time as well.

[lime bramble]

Hey thanks for the discord server I will make most use of it .In my free time

I will learn and use it ❤️

[inner wren]

Hey @subtle wolf! I noticed you posted a seemingly valid Discord API token in your message and have removed your message. This means that your token has been compromised. Please change your token immediately at: https://discordapp.com/developers/applications/me

Feel free to re-post it with the token removed. If you believe this was a mistake, please let us know!

[chrome gyro]

hi guys, I have basic python knowledge. How do I learn python for free?

[prisma canyon]

one personal question, how much do you guys earn with python

[hasty copper]

hi guys ,i have a perfect business plan to make my career awesome by using programing and stuff but i need a friend who can tech me from where to start that and when i should execute the thing im 17 btw im from india

if anyone intrested can dm me

plzz i need anyone one person to help me out

[signal estuary]

The book that Darkwind proposed is a good book. But I suggest this one hereunder for starters. There are other books from No Starch Press that are good as well. I used this one though to start with Python.

[ebon hollow]

I have questions, how likely is one to get hired as a python developer?

[near ocean]

It depends on the local market, your experience, the industry youre applying into, a bajillion other factors

[gritty rivet]

This is consistent with my experience and observations in the US: https://bluelight.co/blog/the-complete-python-developer-salary-guide

[gritty rivet]

A lot less likely now than 6 months ago from what I'm hearing, it's rough out there. But it does vary widely as mariosis said. So if you have some projects on your resume, start applying and find out.

[arctic birch]

does any one know whether international students can participate in coding competitions that have a money prize? (i dont think i'd win but i just want to know if its even allowed)

[true harness]

surely the specific competition would know

[shadow moss]

I'd say it's harder then other languages. Python tends to be a glue language

[peak halo]

The only kind of development where you can get away with working only in Python is data science/AI. which is more about the application of theory than it is about writing code.

[ebon hollow]

Thanks guys, I appreciate

[buoyant seal]

i am hired as python developer... for backend development. Which means i need to know at least SQL and other backend related technologies in addition.

https://www.fullstackpython.com/ any field has its own ecosystem of its other stuff. Language is just a scratch

for software engineering kind of roles = person basically needs core software engineering stuff + related tech to the field. Those are two major things to be known
language syntax is just a scratch in them

[delicate bane]

oh nice link you got there

[near ocean]

full stack python is a misnomer and I dont think we should use it
there's a bajillion other technologies in there that are not python related, they just work parallel to the python stuff

[vapid jay]

thoughts on using scrum/sprints at work?

[digital fjord]

it's industry standard for a reason, and can be done well, though it is often difficult to do so

[buoyant seal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bB340S0tGf8 it has certain pitfalls, and can lead to more problems than profits.

[vapid jay]

awesome, i'll take a look!

[proper skiff]

!e

[print('',e, end=' ') for e in 'Happy']; print()
[print('',e, end='\n') for e in 'Weekend']; print()
[print('',e, end='') for e in 'Pythons']; print()

[inner wren]

@proper skiff :white_check_mark: Your 3.11 eval job has completed with return code 0.

001 |  H  a  p  p  y 
002 |  W
003 |  e
004 |  e
005 |  k
006 |  e
007 |  n
008 |  d
009 | 
010 |  P y t h o n s

[peak halo]

Please do experimentation in #bot-commands

[proper skiff]

sorry to bother, certainly..

[woeful spruce]

Great. I am underpaid 😂

Although to be fair, I don't know if there are any jobs that are really just 'Python Developer'

[woeful spruce]

Do not like it. Feels trendy and companies like to just copy one another. I mean, it basically is just a project with smaller goals that lead to large goals. It also creates more jobs for project managers, I guess. My scrum master basically just administers and organizes our Jira

[woeful spruce]

The Data Scientists at my company aren't adept at python yet. Although, they are both junior level.

[lapis wind]

Tbf I've found things like agile scrum or what ever they like to call it alright

Especially on a large project

[woeful spruce]

I believe it benefits certain scenarios, but, at the end of the day, it comes down to the people involved, like all things

[peak halo]

do they use R or what?

[peak halo]

you have a full-time scrum master? at my company, any project that has scrums just picks someone to lead the scrums.

[woeful spruce]

Some AWS tool. They are learning a bit of python as they go.

[woeful spruce]

Yes. We do. Not the best way to spend money imo, but, they did it. It kind of feels like more of a coordinator role at times. I agree with you, picking someone to lead it is good enough.

[vapid jay]

When I am 25, I'm gonna be a roblox developer 😎

[hasty copper]

hi guys ,i have a perfect business plan to make my career awesome by using programing and stuff but i need a friend who can tech me from where to start that and when i should execute the thing im 17 btw im from india
if anyone intrested can dm me
plzz i need anyone one person to help me out

[smoky quest]

Hi!
If you want a career in CS as a dev, a CS degree is the best plan.
Otherwise, it depends on the role on you are trying to get into

[smoky quest]

I don't do DMs

[hasty copper]

my bad

hey
my plan was to make cloud gaming
for that what are the requirements and from where to start

any suggestions??

[smoky quest]

cloud gaming as in? It's pretty broad as a statement. And what role do you want to do in it?

[hasty copper]

u mean its an bad idea??

[smoky quest]

What you are asking like like saying "word processor". It could mean a lot of things in the context of a career

So can you expand on your question?

[hasty copper]

i mean i wanna start a cloud gaming company

thats mean im the ceo

[smoky quest]

You are gonna need business and technical skills. People rarely have both and will in general rely on a cofounder.
Which area are you gonna go into?

If you want to be the CEO then go into business

[hasty copper]

oh

[hasty copper]

so to actually start a cloud gaming business or company whatever what should i do and what skill i should learn

im 17

[smoky quest]

get a business degree and something like a MBA

[hasty copper]

but cloud gaming company is based on software and stuff right??

[smoky quest]

you want to be the CEO, not the CTO

[hasty copper]

what does that mean

[smoky quest]

these are different roles at a company

But basically, building a business is very different from building a software

[hasty copper]

i seriously cant understand these terms overall i wanna be independent

i dont wanna be in a rat race

for that i got the idea of starting a cloud gaming

i think its kinda bad idea

for that im asking for help like what should i learn

what skills should i occur to get my dream job

[smoky quest]

There is a lot to learn and read. Read for instance "The lean startup" or "The startup owner's manual" or "The lean product playbook"

[smoky quest]

building a business is completely different from building software. Either you take the business or the tech angle.

[hasty copper]

i mean i wanna make software business and cloud gaming industry comes under it right

so for that also i need to learn business studies and cs also

[smoky quest]

yes, you will need both. The problem is most degrees only focus on one aspect

[hasty copper]

im i right??

[smoky quest]

It's like saying you want to build a car company.
You will need to learn to build a car but you will also need to learn how to build a business around that

[hasty copper]

yeah that's exactly what i was saying

[smoky quest]

yep and these are completely different jobs

it doesn't mean you can't do it. But it's still gonna feel like learning two different jobs

[hasty copper]

did u understand what im trying to say

[smoky quest]

I do

[hasty copper]

now im in 12th grade so to achive my dream job what degree should i do??

[smoky quest]

You are gonna need to learn to build a cloud gaming and build a business around that

[hasty copper]

is there any courses to learn these things

[smoky quest]

There are two degrees:

• On the tech side, go for a CS degree
• On the business side, go for a business degree and ideally a MBA

[hasty copper]

yeah but first what should i choose

[smoky quest]

whichever feels more natural to you

[hasty copper]

im actually more into cs

[smoky quest]

then that's it

[hasty copper]

but my job needs business skills too..right??

[smoky quest]

it will

[hasty copper]

then how can manage these both things

[smoky quest]

CEOs don't write code

[hasty copper]

oh

[smoky quest]

You can take extra classes after your CS degree, read books or learn on the spot.
But as CEO, you won't write code

[hasty copper]

u sure i can do that??

[smoky quest]

I don't know if you can do it. But many people do

[hasty copper]

then whats the actually work of ceo

and how did mark zukerberg become successful

he founded a facebook and now he's independent

he got cs skills and how did he managed business skills??

im sry if im wasting ur time@smoky quest

[smoky quest]

his parents were rich, he was lucky, at the right time with the right skills

[hasty copper]

ohhhhhhhhh

[smoky quest]

you aren't wasting my time. But I do think you would benefit from reading more about startups and the different roles of a company

[hasty copper]

any books or courses ??

[smoky quest]

And be aware that for 1 zukerberg, there are 1 billions people who failed

[hasty copper]

yeah thats true

[smoky quest]

see the books I listed earlier

[hasty copper]

are they available online

i mean e- books

[smoky quest]

there are ebooks

[hasty copper]

okay okay thank you so much

so at last i need to do cs degree and on the time i need to learn the business skills too by reading books and etc

[hasty copper]

can i pin this??

[smoky quest]

yeah. And also don't get to hung up on your idea.
You still have a few years before you graduate. So your current idea may not be ideal anymore. But with the right attitude, I am sure you can find plenty more!

[smoky quest]

Be my guest

[hasty copper]

yeah but thank you so much for your advices

[smoky quest]

np. An entrepreneurial mind is great! Continue!

[hasty copper]

what??

[smoky quest]

It means go ahead.

[hasty copper]

aww thx man

[hasty copper]

oh okay 😅

[torn sorrel]

being a fresher is it better to learn frameworks like django, flask or shld i concentrate entirely on data strcutures , algorithms etc cuz my professors told me recruiters ask questions based on general topics and hardly ever ask questions relating to the syntax of the language and hence will learning frameworks give me an advantage wrt my peers?

[smoky quest]

You are a fresher, so you have plenty of time before you get in front of a recruiter.
But at this stage, there is some value in mastering the fundamentals of DSA before going further. But if learning about django or flask motivates you to learn more, then go ahead.

[acoustic kestrel]

Hi everyone. I'll be 38 in a couple of days and have been thinking about switching to IT.. been thinking about going to uni and getting a degree in software eng... How hard do you guys think it would be for me to start in the industry in my 40's?

[mint oracle]

I'm second year cs student and i don't know programming how to start sometimes i think it's too late to start

I know only python but not dsa in python

I have little bit experience of ml/ds and django and flask

[stoic timber]

what do you want to do with data science analytics ?

[mint oracle]

basically i'm just trying datascience but didn't enjoying

trying some months kaggle then switch to web

and i don't know what i do
start dsa or web

[stoic timber]

well you don't like dsa, then why would you learn it ?
Learn more about web if you like that

[mint oracle]

dsa is compulsory to get job

[stoic timber]

which job ?

[mint oracle]

any job in future for tech rounds

[stoic timber]

it's a field with many opportunities, but if you sincerely don't like to do it I still wouldn't continue learning it

[mint oracle]

ok

[red yacht]

That shows how valid it is.

[gritty rivet]

Wasn't that hard for me. Most of my co-workers are nearly half my age but that's really a non-issue. I didn't get a new degree, maybe that part will be more challenging, I don't know

[hazy verge]

i want to get an aerospace engineering degree but i also like to code. I dont know which one to choose as both interest me alot.

I also dont know if there are demanding jobs for both of them

[gilded valley]

It's easier to get a software engineering job with an aerospace degree than it is to do the opposite

[hazy verge]

Really?

[dense mesa]

You can do coding with aerospace engineering, running simulations requires a lot of software

[hazy verge]

Is there demands for these jobs in the aerospace industry?

If so, how much?

[gilded valley]

Lots and lots of people go into software engineering from non-CS degrees. I'm not in the field, but I'd be very surprised if that were true for aerospace engineering

[dense mesa]

What jobs specifically, software?

[hazy verge]

Avionics, Defense sytsems etc

Programming these systems

[dense mesa]

You can do a lot of programming in aerospace if you want to

[dense mesa]

<@&831776746206265384>

[analog sun]

!warn 902922503704420435 don't troll and respect channel topics.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied warning to @vapid jay.

[vapid jay]

🤓

[analog sun]

Don't use our server for scams.

[stuck dagger]

it's not a scam bro

it's true there's the link of discord of the community

[peak halo]

Please use the @severe widget to dispute anything a moderator has said.

[still mesa]

Hi, anybody needs python scripting dev ? Or advice me where could I search for such a job, please!

[peak halo]

We don't allow recruitment in this server, but there's a link to the Python job board in the channel description.

[still mesa]

10x, didn't notice

[analog crypt]

Hey guys, I have a question regarding building a projects portfolio as a reference for my future job application. I dont have work experience with python yet, I started learning and coding stuff roughly six month ago, mainly for industry change. How many projects would you from your experience take as an appropriate amount as an backup for an interview? Thanks

[buoyant seal]

If u are already having previous technical experience and able to Google your own problems/reinstalling OS, then highly likely u would be easy to educate further.
Well. If u will pass any real 4 years university then chances become really high

Essentially kind of important only to believe in yourself able solving tech problems and ability to find solutions on your own (and eventually learning when time to ask for help)
Then with experience everything else will come

[smoky quest]

No one will care about the number or the nature of projects. What interviewers will care about are the demonstrated skills.
To that end, it's better to have one project that demonstrate the required skills than 50 projects that you can't even fit in your resume because it's too many.

[delicate bane]

i believe the first job is the hardest to obtain in most cases

[analog crypt]

Totally agree. So I understand that there is no need for a quantity. Just something that sums up my current skill. Needless to say, I was told by my friends already working in IT that everyone including employers count on teaching new ppl bunch of their stuff to blend into work process. Just need to get past what comes before that.

[smoky quest]

I would articulate it more in terms of training vs teaching.
School or bootcamp or self-taught are about being taught the required knowledge and skills related to CS.
Training will be about giving you pointers and guidance about your gaps, but that does not include teaching or having someone spending their time just to teach you.

Companies will be happy to train you but no one will want to teach you.

(and I know I am somewhat abusing the definition of the word training)

[smoky quest]

Also, if you are in HS or college age, aiming for a CS degree will be the simplest path with the most opportunities and career prospects.

[buoyant seal]

sounds like mentoring is kind of another word for training in your definitions.

[smoky quest]

yeah it could fit. Although I am looking for something slightly more generic than mentorship

[analog crypt]

Alright, makes sense. Got what I went here for, thank you all

[woeful spruce]

I don't think age is a factor. 38 is young imo (I am 36, and got a DE role last year after 5 years in non-IT roles). The demand for devs outpaces supply right now, so I can't see the employer being too picky in terms of age.

I would think twice about going back to school though. A boot camp is probably a better option. Another 4 years is a grind and not worth it imo.

[buoyant seal]

mm yeah. 4 additional years is kind of not fully worthy, if already having some STEM education.
Plus perhaps u can add some experience from another domain to your entry. For example i saw recently a person going for career switch with 15 year being manager(with kind of serious business analyst experience) from million dollars turnover company into IT career
That was rich. Quite an advanatge to bring with yourself into career switch. May be you have some other advantage that makes more prepared for one role or another already.

[acoustic kestrel]

thanks a lot for all the replies. One thing that I noticed in the current market is that there's a big lack of testers.. which is something that I find quite interesting.. I already have some basic skills with html, and css.. will focus a bit more in getting better at those, i'm already learning python (just to give a better understanding of how dev works) and will focus more towards scripting on watir, uft and selenium.

[smoky quest]

Tester is kind of dying, except in large or specific projects

[acoustic kestrel]

hmm

i see quite a lot of job ads for testers in nz.. but as i'm not in the industry.. don't really know what happens behind the scenes

dev ops and agile are also mentioned a lot

[summer roost]

agile is just a way for a team to a) coordinate on what tasks are most important to work on now vs later, and b) regularly discuss what things are slowing the team down.

[acoustic kestrel]

oh I see.. I thought it had testing as part of it

[summer roost]

no - not by definition, at least. And in any event, agile is easy to pick up, so you don't need to know it before getting hired.

[buoyant seal]

@acoustic kestrel i see for now only Manual Testers dying. Auto testing QA is still pretty much present in demand i think
Someone needs to write and maintain End to End more fragile testing xD

[summer roost]

it's a much smaller portion of the market than it once was. Developers now do most testing themselves, whereas in the past at large companies it was the norm for a dedicated QA team to do most of the testing.

[smoky quest]

Lot's of the automation is dumped on devops/devs/Build&Release

[acoustic kestrel]

Good to know that. So it might be a good idea to keep working on improving dev skills along with testing.. Any specific tools I should be focusing on?

[smoky quest]

Focus on the role rather than the tools.
See https://roadmap.sh/ for instance. And try to leverage your past experiences as well

[buoyant seal]

Well, i can claim that I see high amount of hirement of QA people into thousand devs outsourcing company i am in right now.
If they are hired, then there is demand for them.

[smoky quest]

What area of sw dev out of curiosity?

[acoustic kestrel]

amazing! thanks for that

[ember hawk]

Hi, currently learning ML basics. I am gathering information in order to start building some projects (my goal is to become a ML eng) what would be your recommendations?

[buoyant seal]

the hired QA?

surprisingly 4 out of latest 6 i checked are manual QA, and just one javascript/cypress one

okay, may be there is still demand for manual QA

[smoky quest]

yeah. I see them the most disappearing in Internet services since they become a bottleneck, get in the way and it's much cheaper and faster to have a proper CI/CD pipeline and do selective deployments.
So that's why I am curious where you see that and the profile of the companies and teams you see hiring QA people

[acoustic kestrel]

https://www.seek.co.nz/qa-jobs-in-information-communication-technology

[buoyant seal]

i mean, CI CD establishes integration of tests for each microservice/application
but we have a problem that after staging environment is automatically deployed it is supposed to be tested too.
And tests for that stage are kind of more costy and less fun to deal with
I guess people tend to still have manual people for that stage, but it would make sense to write autotests more for this stage

[smoky quest]

I disagree about them being more costly or less fun.
It's just more end to end or smoke tests

[buoyant seal]

well. as long as it is cloud infra, it is pretty much easily automatable to its full extension. which is good.

[smoky quest]

yeah, banks 🙂

[acoustic kestrel]

a couple of friends of mine work as testers and from what they told me, it's basically working with devs in small projects as they go..

cybersecurity is something I find interesting.. but it seems to be out of my league.

[smoky quest]

It's pretty broad. So I would not eliminate it from the get go

[buoyant seal]

may be u a right. I think the problem with end to end testing just with a bit bad choices in tools made in this regard.
If to do it with the right tools, and having it properly configured with devops engineers, it should be good i think

(i have trauma from Robot Framework, which is not having visual debug, or any debug interface. Or at least i did not discover yet.)

i would not mind seeing end to end testing done just in pytest with stuff like Selenium i think, properly containerized for zero effort dev setup

[smoky quest]

In a previous job, we had 3 end to end automated test frameworks because neither Ops, nor Build&Release nor QA could agree on it. So they all tried to force the devs to write the same tests for each of these frameworks.
I had to flip a table and write a JUnit based abstraction layer so that devs only had to write it once and then each of these teams could call that. (benefit is devs could also run and debug their tests easily locally)

[buoyant seal]

Junit based abstraction layer?

each of these teams could call that? u mean u made API test client available as REST API and made others to use that?

[smoky quest]

It's a bit more complicated than that, but along the lines of the information about the environment so that it's easier to point at the services and configure them

[buoyant seal]

API test client with ability to set current application settings variables for the current test run? Switching between temporal and staging part of infra when necessary?

[smoky quest]

not sure to follow?
I don't understand the temporal vs staging part too

[buoyant seal]

umm. We can run tests of particular application, with temporally raised side car containers. Which have inside in a clean state redis/postgresql/and other infra objects. Wiped locally after each test if necessary. Deleted always when testing session is over.
Difference with staging infra, that staging objects are always raised with infra code in cloud provider. And not temporal side car containers which can be present just in self hosted runner machine

[woeful spruce]

Testers who can build automated testers are still needed imo. Software and web sites are still going to be buggy. That won't be going away anytime soon, unless they prefer the user break their app first.

[smoky quest]

Note that this is before Kubernetes and containers were a thing or even existed.

[smoky quest]

I don't think equating absence of QA with having buggy software and websites is fair. That would be a false dichotomy.
QA does bring a lot of value when the bugs are very expensive (ex: loosing $ or having recalls). But you can have a relatively safe app with a good CI/CD pipeline.

[pine anvil]

I would like to teach cs like

[buoyant seal]

CI/CD is better scalable and does good when... it is used in the right way. I prefer to see all testing / staging and tests for staging tests results being submitted into cloud git platform like Github/Gitlab for each commit
People tend to remember doing that for CI / unit tests and for local integration tests for specific microservice.
But people in my current project for some reason did not realize that it is necessary to do for deployment code and automated staging tests for that after that too.
We would have git history with ability to see git diff, from last working state to what made breaking changes to infra code and end to end testing.

[smoky quest]

Indeed. Looking at the historical trail can also provide some insight in the performance over time, including potential degradation.

When things don't work out, that's also when a QA team is brought onboard. Not to ensure the best outcome but to ensure the minimum bar

[buoyant seal]

exactly. deployment deploy and staging infra testing needs to be git version controlled basically too. for its results of runs. For all kind of testing

xD at the next week i will be trying to persuade my team we need it xD

as well as having actually full automated CD pipeline of a full cycle, instead of having set of manual clickable jobs to do that (they are abstracting all deployment complexities into small amount of clicks to be pressed in chain, but it still makes missing git history. We have basically... ChatOps with custom made ClickOps deployment tool lacking git integration at the moment)

[bronze sand]

Can we actually declare variables in html tho ? ||maybe i sound like a clown rn||

[worn mango]

Hello, I am looking into data scientist bootcamps such as practicum, udacity, and others alike. I was wondering if anyone here has completed a boot camp like those and actually gotten a job in the field? Also, if anyone has experience with any bootcamps I would like to hear your opinions on them.

I also was looking into the eastern university online data scientist program if anyone has any opinions on that or experience with it.

If anyone replies please @ me, or dm me. Thank you

[buoyant seal]

Technically possible.
Rendered HTML is technically client side rendered application. Loaded client side javascript and its states are variables for it, which can be used for client side interactive rendering into Html body
Also technically whole DOM are variables in hierarchical structure. But that's vision is deprecated and javascript more usage with frontend framework and virtual DOM is prefered

[jagged oak]

Hey guys, I just got my Data Scientist certification and am going for the PCAP Exam in a few weeks.

My goal is to work as a Freelancer once again, but this time with the expertise in Coding, I previously worked for two years and it was a very pleasurable experience.

I am focussing on Data Scraping mainly. Working through the different libaries in python ( Selenium, Scrapy, BeautifulSoup, MechanicalSoup, lxml, requests, urllib.

Anyone got profound experience in freelancing as a data scientist and doesn't mind to give me some advise?

[vapid jay]

Is it possible to juggle career with normal life

Like i dont wanna be a fulltime slave to programming.

[buoyant seal]

i think it is possible if

1. u a good with time management
2. u a already at a role level where u a less required to learn in your own time (i think it is reachable eventually, and finally starting to see a glimpse of this possibility i think. I hope to reach this point at the 4-5th year of my career. Although quite possible i will see much more directions to learn further when i reach that point)

[vapid jay]

Like im not a try hard at all and want to be a person unrelated to my job. Im not sure how to go that way

[buoyant seal]

Ergh. i think it is not about software development. U a supposed to be very related to your own self education at least in this career.
And being more related to job processes is kind of part of reaching high level too

[jagged oak]

Depends on how much money you wanna make.

You might also consider freelancing an option. You can work one day a week for 10 hours and might have made $500, would be around $2000 a month. And if you are better, you can get a better hourly wage, or building an automation for it to safe much more time if done properly.

[jagged oak]

I agree, the more educated you are on a specific topic, the easier the work.

That's at least what I have done prior to coding and going to adapt in the next few months in freelancing. So my experience is limited to exactly that.

But as gig economy is on it's way, just like remote work. It should be very easy to find a job like that. Outsourcing is not so scarce.

[buoyant seal]

Technically yes, but freelancing requires preferably meeting some skill level making u a good competitor among others
And freelancing platforms are kind of requiring you to build your reputation first before it becomes good income jobs
In some way it has more requirements than regular jobs, and in some way less.

[jagged oak]

Like right now, I got a job offer, where I need to scrape 4 websites and get the information of the following fields:

Name
ID number
Facility
Facility address,
Expected release date

For a fixed price of $100

[jagged oak]

No that is not true.

What is needed the most is to get the job done properly and to be a good communicator.

The skill is a necessity to get it done in time. It is more important to provide trust.

Presence and reputation is fine, and it takes a bit of time.

But the most important is to know how to market yourself, not to outshine them in skills.

[buoyant seal]

Good point. Ability to sell yourself is quite important. Same is necessary in regular jobs in order to have salary matching your current market value

[jagged oak]

$100 for such an easy task, and if you are really good and have specialized already in that niche, so you prepared some patterns and the like, you will get this done in less than 30 minutes.

[jagged oak]

Yes. Communication is the most important skill. As you can influence others with what you say and what you do. But better be able to be competent in your actions to back up every word you express. And that was your prior point, right?

The thing is, high level jobs are there, but I do not think it is really that profitable to be honest. It takes much more effort and time, not only to meet this standard, but to also uphold and sustain it live on the project.

And the ratio of what is being paid for the work done, is not in its favour in many cases, by my current experience and estimation of the jobs I have seen.

[vapid jay]

Arent the skills yoo vague to do

Like in freelancing, id rather do some normal office job that doesnt pressure e too much so i can spend time on my hobbies

[buoyant seal]

Well. I think i start to see all requirements and road to reach them to have this high level jobs within my specialization. Eventually. Even jobs in between are pretty nice paid though.

It is worthy goal to pursue. Better chances to get quicker money for retirement. And just nice goal in general to reach high level.

[jagged oak]

It depends on who you are and what you wanna do.

I spent 3 hours a week working for easy 1k. I had the rest of the time free.

Office work is less pressure? I kinda doubt that, but there is a sense of safety I guess.

But maybe I am just in my element within freelancing.

[vapid jay]

Possibly. I like safety

[buoyant seal]

Work office in a fully remote way is nice certainly xD

[jagged oak]

To be honest, the safest way to earn proper money is always to form a team and to not only put all money together to buy assets and things to generate passive income and to invest.

But also to align living expenses by building a habitat for success.

Buy a big house together, live together and work together.

Each earning 5k a month, but you only need 500 - 1k to sustain yourself.

10 guys can safe up to 40k a month to invest into developing financial freedom.

But alone it is going slow and the experience, knowledge and brainpower is much less.

[buoyant seal]

living in cheap countries gives lesser salaries / higher competion to reach high level salaries, but at the same time cost of living is really low almost all money is saved after the mentioned 1k to sustain yourself. At least if u aren't money waster.

[jagged oak]

Money needs to be invested into assets or the like. Otherwise saving only a part of it.

Depending on the goals it is wise to use the most effective way to accumulate money.

[bronze sand]

Ok , thanks for the info , btw , can u tell me abt the meme on why is it funny ? Like is it very beginner question he asked Google abt variables ? Or the meme was not a technical meme

[buoyant seal]

That joke has several meaning in itself.
Firstly... people think wrongly about how process of programming happens. They think it is like hacking in movies with a lot of lines going at screens.
Secondly... boyfriend is kind that stupid that he tries to declare variables in html, which is not programming language at all. It is just mark down language to set structure of a web site. So his real level is really low.
Thirdly the joke has joke, that if he is programmer then he is supposed to be hacker.
Fourthly. To be honest i don't find funny any layer of the joke.

So in the end it is just quite derogatory joke about programmers. Of a quite low level in my opinion.

[bronze sand]

I see , i can finally understand it now , and maybe even laugh at it if i see it from ur second pov as to html is jst a mark down lang where he tried to enter variables

[buoyant seal]

I think i would not. I prefer other jokes like the one in a picture, or just reading stuff funny in books for programmers

(This book is used by... basically all software developers. This is holy grail read by any real programmer today. So extra funny to have stuff like that here, it means it is teached to ANY developer in the world)
Chapter 28 of Code Complete by McConnel (comprehensive book about Software Engineering.)

28.1 Encouraging Good Coding
Because code is the primary output of construction, a key question in managing construction is “How do you encourage good coding practices?” In general, mandating a strict set of technical standards from the management position isn’t a good idea. Programmers tend to view managers as being at a lower level of technical evolution, somewhere between single-celled organisms and the woolly mammoths that died out during the Ice Age, and if there are going to be programming standards, programmers need to buy into them.

If someone on a project is going to define standards, have a respected architect define the standards rather than the manager. Software projects operate as much on an “expertise hierarchy” as on an “authority hierarchy.” If the architect is regarded as the project’s thought leader, the project team will generally follow standards set by that person.

If you choose this approach, be sure the architect really is respected. Sometimes a project architect is just a senior person who has been around too long and is out of touch with production coding issues. Programmers will resent that kind of “architect” defining standards that are out of touch with the work they’re doing.

[buoyant seal]

The book kind of continues with fun
** 28.6 Managing Your Manager**

In software development, nontechnical managers are common, as are managers who have technical experience but who are 10 years behind the times. Technically competent, technically current managers are rare. If you work for one, do whatever you can to keep your job. It’s an unusual treat.

In a hierarchy, every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence. —The Peter Principle
If your manager is more typical, you’re faced with the unenviable task of managing your manager. “Managing your manager” means that you need to tell your manager what to do rather than the other way around. The trick is to do it in a way that allows your manager to continue believing that you are the one being managed. Here are some approaches to dealing with your manager:

• Plant ideas for what you want to do, and then wait for your manager to have a brainstorm (your idea) about doing what you want to do.
• Educate your manager about the right way to do things. This is an ongoing job because managers are often promoted, transferred, or fired.
• Focus on your manager’s interests, doing what he or she really wants you to do and don’t distract your manager with unnecessary implementation details.
  (Think of it as “encapsulation” of your job.)
• Refuse to do what your manager tells you, and insist on doing your job the right way.
• Find another job.
  The best long-term solution is to try to educate your manager. That’s not always an easy task, but one way you can prepare for it is by reading Dale Carnegie’s How to Win Friends and Influence People.

And the book recommends full of jokes book about psychology of office environment in terms of IT in addition. A bit tempted to read it just for the sake of material given in a fun way: DeMarco, Tom and Timothy Lister. Peopleware: Productive Projects and Team

[sudden nymph]

Hey guys, I got fired from my internship 3 weeks in. My tech lead said the reason was a little bit of “hand-holding” and they wanted an intern to hit the ground running.

Anyone have thoughts on that? It took me 2 weeks to do a 1 week sprint, but my next sprint was finished in 3 days..

[smoky quest]

Do you have examples of hand holding?

[sudden nymph]

1. Database wouldn’t make a connection - asked how to do so 2 or 3 times (had to get setup on 3 diff computers)

2. Command line error in vs code - couldn’t setup virtual environment, he said it was from using vs code power shell and not the command prompt in it

3. Get data to and from the db w/ sql marshmallow. He showed me how to do it (the 2 week sprint) then I was ramping up really quickly with it. Finished my sprint early, they transferred me onto another code base then let me go

I asked him like 6-7 Q per day because everyone told me to ask a lot of questions..

[summer roost]

That sounds pretty weird to me. 6 or 7 questions in a day is not a lot for someone new to the team, and especially not for an intern without previous professional experience.

Internships are supposed to be for teaching, so deciding 3 weeks in that someone needs more teaching than you expected and you're no longer willing to try to teach them seems pretty surprising, unless there was some major event that would lead them to believe that you misrepresented your skills or aren't willing to listen to directions or something like that.

It sounds like they may have been trying to treat interns as cheap employees, based on your side of the story.

[sudden nymph]

They fired a dev two days before

[gloomy bough]

Hi guys!!! Anyone related with ai engineering, ML... AI..etc could help me?? Would be great to talk with him. Just a little talk on md :)) Thx

[smoky quest]

yeah it's weird and hard to say without more info.
From the examples you cite, I wouldn't see a reason to fire an intern within 3 weeks.

In general, in terms of questions, people will be annoyed if you ask google-able questions but will be very happy with the ones where google would not have helped.
It could be also that the type of question were at a level that is much lower than they were expecting for someone at your level of education.
But it could also be that it's a toxic place, the engineers were not properly equipped to mentor, or a place where they try to use interns as cheap labor and anything in between.

That said, being fired should not have been a surprise to you. This means that they would have had to give you feedback about it multiple times and in terms getting stronger each time. The absence of such process would indicate that this place is not that great anyway.

[summer roost]

Interns aren't really meant to be productive. They're there to learn more than to contribute. Anything they deliver is a nice-to-have, but no bossiness critical project should ever be blocked because the intern is slow.

[sudden nymph]

They did not give me a single warning/complaint about performance or anything. I accidentally took a company t shirt without asking but that was literally the only feedback I received

[smoky quest]

It's simpler to directly ask your question so more people can contribute

[gloomy bough]

was just to know if my roadmap for one thay start on the IA is good or no

[smoky quest]

If it's to learn about the topic, you may want to post a link to it on #data-science-and-ml for feedback.
But feel free to post a link here as well

[gloomy bough]

well i will say all roadmap there, thx!!

[shadow moss]

Do they not supply notepads? My thought is this is shit you write down.

[gilded valley]

Without hearing from the person who fired you, it's hard to give actionable feedback. A big thing is whether the questions you were asking were the kind that can be solved with 10m+Google.

Ultimately it's very odd to ever fire an intern no matter how shit they are, the one case I've heard of was the intern insulting the company on his personal Instagram.

It's probably the company being harsh, but that doesn't mean you can't learn something from the experience - in this case the obvious place to check on is your troubleshooting skills.

[buoyant seal]

1. Kind of possible problems with dev env setup in this project Dev env setup and documentation to use it is supposed to be well present in the project.
2. U know, it is far better to use from linux. Everything works there from anywhere. From console terminal, from vscode, everything works OK. If u a going to pursue web dev, highly recommending Linux.
   Well, hard to tell regarding questions. It depends on which questions they were i guess.

[woeful spruce]

Seems like the standards they had for you, as an intern, was similar to a Senior level position. Very strange imo. Interns aren't going to be self-starters, for the most part.

[buoyant seal]

Sometimes they can be actually really independent diggers from a start
my first job did not have any internship too. I was actually hired as cheap dev power xD it did not prevent me from learning a lot of stuff and climbing up.
Well. I was lucky that i was a sole owner of backend and infrastructure It would be far more difficult to get into already existing systems from a start. Having my own fully owned code allowed me to control its complexity equal to my current level each time.

[summer roost]

Seems like the standards they had for you, as an intern, was similar to a Senior level position
I don't think that's necessarily true. There's a whole lot of space between the expected job responsibilities of an intern and the expected responsibilities of a senior.

Based on the description, it seems like they were looking for something more like a junior than an intern. Juniors are expected to be able to drive progress forward on a project, to make and commit to deadlines, and to do independent research on how to solve some issue.

[woeful spruce]

I am trying to pacify his wounds. Don't get all logical on me.

[buoyant seal]

false illusions can be wrong way to obtain too. Realstic view is necessary to current level i think.

[woeful spruce]

Hence the 'for the most part'. You were an outlier 😁

Senior level is the only level I'm which I would expect someone to 'not ask too many questions'

[buoyant seal]

i think any level needs to asks questions xD questions can be of different sorts

1. sometimes u need to ask because problem is really out of scope of your domain / access level
2. sometimes u need to ask because... other person just knows this stuff already and it could make sense to obtain answer quickly instead of using much more time to dig on your own
3. sometimes u need to ask because... it helps to brainstorm some ideas more throughly. just for inspiration

[woeful spruce]

Well yes, there are millions of scenarios

[smoky quest]

I would be worried if a new senior on the team does not ask questions

[buoyant seal]

Well. Of course i would be a bit more sad encountering questions which can be just googled, or really primitive knowledge being asked.
But person can be not familiar just because it is out of scope of domain, or because it is impossible to learn all the tech and details out there, first time learning entirely new stuff is usually confusing where to go

[woeful spruce]

They might not ask because they are afraid they could get fired like the intern guy 😂

[smoky quest]

As a joke, yes.
Not as a joke, that would require some 1-1 to address that

[buoyant seal]

reaching senior level u a eventually reaching financial sustainability. And even if fired: many more companies are in the line to work in next ;b Really not a problem for Senior dev. Only a minor annoyance that work was not sought in parallel before previous job ended, but can be actually good oportunity finally getting long time deserved long vacation (which would not really last long if active job search would be in place )

[woeful spruce]

Well yes, it depends how long you have been on the job, etc

Explaining why you got fired at a job during an interview is never a fun conversation

[buoyant seal]

Each company has its own set of faults. At the worst case we can just add to latest company some bad traits from previous companies before that in addition. 😛
Plus there are always positive reasons explaning why u a seeking new job can be present too
Basically the list can be pretty long why

[summer roost]

In my experience, someone is much more likely to get fired for not asking for help when they get stuck than for asking for help

[sudden nymph]

I think this is true, but they don’t mention that at the interview..

My worry is that I keep getting fired (from all jobs - not just CS ones). Primarily for tardiness (showing up 5 minutes late), but this past one was “culture fit and hand-holding”. Out of 5 jobs I have gotten fired from 3, left one for this internship, and performed well at the other, but got written up twice for tardiness. I don’t know what my options are.

Should I just start a company?

[ivory sluice]

do you have close friends in real life that could give you honest (potentially cold and honest) feedback about how personable you are?

your messages here present fine, but there might be something else that we're not seeing and that you also may very well not be aware of

[true harness]

showing up late is kinda inexcusable, though. just stop doing that?

[sudden nymph]

I worked on that, but my concern is I solved that issue but still getting fired for other reasons. My long-term concern is stability/certainty

[sudden nymph]

I’m personable but can be very reclusive. I still love humanity and wish no harm on anyone, but I do carry anger in me. I don’t put it on others tho

[ivory sluice]

you do seem personable, at least to me who has read about 30 seconds of messages :) but still, might be worth asking for feedback from peers. maybe even previous coworkers? if not from this most recent job, then previous ones

[sudden nymph]

I was friends with all of them but I always butted heads with management

[smoky quest]

That's something worth digging. If you butt head with one manager, that may be them. But if you always butt heads with managers, that may point at you

[gritty rivet]

Have you seen a counselor or therapist? When it comes to negative emotions and their consequences, a professional can probably help you better then we can

[ivory sluice]

either your most recent employer is really shitty and vastly miscommunicated their expectations of you, and also poorly handled your situation by not giving you actionable feedback before firing you, and you've gotten unlucky, or there is something about your conduct or behavior that rubs people the wrong way

i'd ask those coworkers specifically why they think you've had conflict with management. ask them to be honest but prepare yourself for negative feedback

[smoky quest]

Either way, from your messages, it sounds like there is a pattern to it. It's great you are willing and working on it!
But there is tons of information we are missing. So you may want to get feedback from people who have worked with you or know you better so that you can be more aware and address them and increase your odds for more stable jobs

[delicate bane]

oh hey ive run into this issue more than once. so i put the links / notes to myself in my notion since i tend to forget how i fixed it the last time

[ripe pagoda]

Hey what kind of questions could an interviewer ask regarding python and pandas?

[sudden nymph]

I have a psychiatrist atm but I see her once a month. Going to schedule a regular psychologist + career coach. Going to keep applying to jobs (internship + junior roles). If I get fired while trying to mitigate issues again, I’m gonna start a business. I work because I want money, but I want my labor to be meaningful, and I haven’t gotten that through other employers.

[vapid jay]

hi im currently 14, if im gonna try computer science course in the future should i learn python or html ? to have a better chance of getting into uni or a job?

[smoky quest]

• Make sure you have the grades to go into a CS degree in college/university
• In the mean time, you have plenty of time. So have fun! Make websites, games, 3d videos with blenders or robots! It will help you build a culture of CS and get more familiar with it. So in that context, learning first python or html doesn't matter as much as you having fun learning it

[vapid jay]

do yk where i should learn html from?

[weary sage]

freecodecamp seems like a great pick... they also have their own discord server

alt, w3school is also cool

[gritty rivet]

That all makes sense. Good luck!

[terse loom]

Hello guys my name is Mo and I am a first year student in software engineering at my local university. I am really struggling with python in my class. I wish to start a project that will help me get familiar with the language. I have a mandatory work term that is attached to my program this upcoming april ! I want be ready when my time comes. What projects should I build for my engineering resume. My level of understanding of python is around a 5/10 . Any advice would greatly be appreciated.

[true harness]

it will be difficult to build a project that is larger than tic-tac-toe (or something) if you're "struggling with python" as you say. i would focus on making sure you have the fundamentals down properly before tackling any larger projects. that's not to say you shouldn't do any projects though. smaller scale things like "snake" or a card game will probably be useful for learning

[vapid jay]

Hii. In computer science, im curious.. will they teach topics like how u create a programming language? Rn, i just know they discuss how to program like in C or C++ but didnt discuss HOW and WHY those codes function like they do. Like how theyre created or something.. will they teach this?

[near ocean]

Yes, pretty much all unis have at least one compiler class where you'd learn about this kind of thing

[vapid jay]

When do u learn those in computer science?

[near ocean]

Second or third year usually, i dont think they hit you right away with compiler stuff

[vapid jay]

Why is that? Is it difficult 💀

[near ocean]

Yes

[vapid jay]

Are there any tips u can give me

Maybe to get myself prepared

[near ocean]

Study hard? Idk in my uni it was optional and I didnt take it, that was a mistake

[vapid jay]

Why do u think its a mistake

[near ocean]

It was interesting, i avoided it because i wanted an easier time lol

[lapis wind]

Writing a good compiler is hard, that is why we have LLVM 😉, but overall though there was a python talk by the creators of pypy somewhere on creating a basic python parser and runtime

No idea if I can find that talk again though 😅.

[smoky quest]

https://craftinginterpreters.com/ is a nice fee book

[smoky quest]

Hi!
This channel is about #career-advice .
You may want to check #❓｜how-to-get-help to get help with python

[silk yoke]

How long did it take you guys to hear back after your coding interview

[smoky quest]

it could range from on the spot to a few days

[silk yoke]

Oh ok, in general how many questions should you solve for an entry level position with leet code easy questions and 45 min on the clock

[near ocean]

First job was a couple days, second one was same afternoon

[smoky quest]

Two easy is what I would aim for

[silk yoke]

😔

Solved one lol

[dawn bronze]

what would be an "easy level" question for comparison?

[near ocean]

fizzbuzz, two sum, balanced parens, that kind

Not all leetcode easy questions are actually easy and not all hard are actually hard

[silk yoke]

Similar to two sum but not exactly the same

[smoky quest]

easy leetcode is an example

[dawn bronze]

these kind of questions are used in interviews for entry level positions?

[smoky quest]

Yep they are

[gritty rivet]

To get my current job (at a small and fairly chaotic startup) I found things moved a lot more quickly when I followed up by email. I wouldn't wait much more then a week or so to ask them for an update

[somber urchin]

Hey guys. I'm an aspiring entrepreneur, my main role is going to be leadership, express visions of the company, garnering investors, economics and so on.
I do however really want to get a good understanding of (full stack) development as that's gonna be where most of the workload will be. So I've decided to set a few months aside to learn as much as I can to get a good basic understanding of the whole thing - who knows maybe I'll even pull my weight during some of the coding projects.

Anyhow. Where would you guys suggest me to start? What languages are important to learn? What skills will be imperative?

I respect the complexity of programming and realise I will need to hire developers as time goes on.

Any insight will be greatly appreciated 🙂

(I have a few projects in mind - but it mostly consists of online applications, web development and services). I have started learning Python but realise I will look into other languages as well further down the line

[smoky quest]

Hi!
https://roadmap.sh/ Can provide some pointers

[somber urchin]

Thank you!

[vapid jay]

Hey guys, I've studied web development Js,PHP but I couldn't find myself in it tbh.
I want to learn python from scratch, My main goal is to be a back-end developer able to create projects as a freelancer ie discord bots, chatbots, etc.
Any recommendations where to start?
Thanks in advance.

[peak halo]

does anyone know if there is a market for freelance discord bot development? that sounds doubtful to me.

[balmy spade]

I would say the market is there though I'm not sure how the crowd sources of it works. I've made some income on the side doing minimal work in discord bots for artist friends.

I think that's where I'd look for such work too. Freelance artists/content creators.

[ivory sluice]

my employer is considering giving some "key" employees like myself equity as part of my compensation package, probably in january. i'm not a dev but we are a software company in the US of ~100 employees, c corp, and owned by private equity

what are some things i need to be aware of or questions i need to ask? i imagine that the agreement will be in terms of percentage of ownership, some kind of vesting period, and tax implications (only when i sell, right?). i also know we are gearing up to acquire other companies down the line, but not sure if our company would acquire them directly or if our owner PE firm would acquire them.

[delicate bane]

cant directly answer your question but i have this resource bookmarked and it seems useful https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/equity-for-software-engineers/

im sure some of the seniors can give you a more direct answer though

[ivory sluice]

there's a lot of things i don't trust about my seniors lol, because we're not very established and things are always changing

with the exception of our CEO, basically everyone at the executive level has been with us for only 1-4 months, so in terms of tenure of employment i've been here much longer

our HR director is also brand new

but ty for the resource, i shall check it out

damn this thing is a short book

[split oasis]

not sure if this question goes here: how would you guys go about finding an open source community to collaborate with?

[smoky quest]

There is also https://www.holloway.com/g/equity-compensation

[smoky quest]

In general for startups and tech jobs, people want equity because either:

• The company is public and the shares are expected to go up in value as the company becomes successful. The employees can sell them on the market
• The company is private but it is expected the company will either become public (so going to the point above), get acquired (shares will be exchanged for $$$ or shares of the acquirer [and then back to the point above], or go bust

If a company is private and stay as such (or get stuck and does not grow), then your money gets locked away as you can't sell the shares directly like if it was private. To that end, sometimes there is also a revenue sharing set up or some sort of secondary sale can be organized.

Given it's a PE who owns you, I guess there will be some ways for you to get something out of it in the end.

But either way, that's pretty cool of them to try do that for key employees, although it's probably used as a retention tool.

Also be on the lookout for shitty terms like https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/clawback.asp

[ivory sluice]

cool cool.
the way my HR director described it, there's really no risk to being given equity as part of my comp, so long as i'm happy with my base pay. if we go bust and go bankrupt or something, i hope my shares would just become worth $0...

but this was a very brief mention, i didn't ask any detailed questions

[smoky quest]

it depends. If you got options and they vest and you buy them, there may be an AMT tax at play

[delicate bane]

ah sorry i meant seniors here, someone like recursive

[ivory sluice]

recursive senpai

[delicate bane]

oof i just finished reading this paragraph too:

Good Technology was valued at $1B in 2014 and planned to go public. However, in 2015 Blackberry announced it would acquire Good Technology for $425M in a fire sale. Several employees lost large amounts of savings as they paid cash to exercise options, bought stock in the company, or paid taxes on the common stock they received.

[true harness]

as an employer, what would you want to see on a linkedin?

[delicate bane]

you mean as a recruiter or hiring manager?

[true harness]

either?

[smoky quest]

check out also https://techcrunch.com/2011/06/26/skypes-worthless-employee-stock-option-plan-heres-why-they-did-it/

[smoky quest]

Same thing than on a resume: demonstrated skills for the role.
For all intent and purpose, a linkedin profile is indistinguishable from a resume

[delicate bane]

different situation but recently made some news where engineers were also screwed over https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/the-scoop-rebellion-at-datarobot

[smoky quest]

The sad part is that it's business as usual.
They just happen to get caught.

The good news for @ mina is that they are now in between normal employee and execs. While the execs will take care of themselves first, Mina will still be treated better than other employees 😎

[karmic merlin]

!warn 713649270871425056 please dont use our server for selling your stuff.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied warning to @blazing glade.

[blazing glade]

How can I give it free of cost it costs around 180$+ @karmic merlin

[karmic merlin]

We do not allow advertisements whatsoever, am not telling you to give it for free.

frankly what you are doing is probably against ToS of linkedin, as such it is even more so against our rules.

So please do not post such offers here again, not now not ever again

[open stratus]

hi everyone!

[true harness]

I see 👀. follow up question: given that there are like 50 other people with my same exact name (and so the same LinkedIn name), how do I point out the right me on my resume. or does that not matter

[near ocean]

Include a link

Linkedin allows you to create "personalised links" i think they call it, theyre shorter versions of their default links, grab one and add it on your CV

[true harness]

i c. can you show an example? ig First Last, link? or just link?

[azure delta]

Hello guys, I just got a mail from a company, so I need some help how to respond to them for confirmation.

[near ocean]

theyre regular url links but theyre much shorter than their default profile links
ie. you could turn https://www.linkedin.com/in/first-last-974894101
to https://www.linkedin.com/in/smithyboy

if you want you could use markdown i guess to stylise it even more when youre building your resume

regardless, you should have a link on your resume, dont expect the interviewer to find you through searching

same goes for github, twitter, <insert x social media>

probably shouldnt post random people's linkedin link lmaooo i just realised

[true harness]

hmmm. currently i've got this header. does that look ok?

[true harness]

hmmm ok. but my header will be too long D:

[near ocean]

what are you using to build this resume

[true harness]

latex

[near ocean]

surely theres a way to do this in latex
its the same as [LinkedIn](https://www.linkedin.com/<whatever>) in markdown

[true harness]

yeah there's. ig for more context i'm going to an in person job fair, so i'd be printing out physical copies. also, i was told that links were bad for security reasons at certain places? so i'm trying to just write them out

[near ocean]

I would consider an online CV hosted somewhere and a QR code to take you there instead of printing on paper tbh

[true harness]

the real flex would be a qr code generator project 😩

[near ocean]

but I think you could cut down link fluff, like protocol/parts of domain, etc

[true harness]

oh i just shortened my linkedin more and it worked. kinda surprised that name wasn't taken tbh 🎉

[near ocean]

eg linkedin.com/in/mariosis, pasting that in a browser should fill in the rest of the link

time to start a QR code gen project in rust i guess
maybe look into NFC tags as well

you dont have your address on your CV, right?
some recruiter guy told me to add it and my immigration status (for UK, which is fine i guess) on the CV but i didnt feel comfy with addresses

[true harness]

no. i just have gh, email, linkedin now. phone number and address are a bit 😬 imo

[near ocean]

they also told me to write an objective statement, couple of sentences
this all sounds very weird, contradicts other advice I got for building CVs from school and friends

[true harness]

i wouldn't know about uk, though

[lapis wind]

I have my postcode on Linkedin, but equally im in London so it's less exact than say if you were in the middle of no where

[near ocean]

I'm also in London so it doesnt matter since the jobs are where I am, but when I was in Cambridge and Colchester I didnt want to scare people away, thinking I didn't want to relocate

apparently phone number is a must, people here like to call for some wild reason
my phone anxiety cant take it

[true harness]

same 😔

[open stratus]

hey guys,who can tell me about programming? i am new in this scope. I guess how really can to program something like CS,Google,FB etc.. I don't have any ideas how it works

[buoyant seal]

Technically for programming Google/FB and etc are present https://gourav.io/clone-wars those projects who try to replicate

[buoyant seal]

But to understand how to create scalable web infrastructure, u a supposed to learn Software Architecture/System Design like here
https://github.com/donnemartin/system-design-primer

[buoyant seal]

But to understand this stuff, u need to learn other prerequisites
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/darklab8/darklab_backend_roadmap/master/swe_backend.drawio.svg
like learning programming language, how to operate Linux OS, System Design as theory how to happens Software Development Lifecycle
I made roadmap and basically go to the role of Software Architect
supplement with materials from https://roadmap.sh/ too

[buoyant seal]

To start it would be good idea going to receive Computer Science degree
and learning something for beginners, kind of depends on your background where to start. Usually people recommend "Automate the boring stuff with Python"

[open stratus]

i started learn Python few days ago

is it good idea?

[buoyant seal]

do u have any previous programming experience, are you at school or smth?

[buoyant seal]

Good as any other language to start for beginners. Kind of even really good option considering its... details

[open stratus]

i don't have any experience,i am at 11th class(Latvian system,17 years)

[buoyant seal]

Try this stuff then

it has plenty of exercises and check questions after each chapter. It looks good for zero starters i think

[ivory sluice]

heck yeah!

[buoyant seal]

I could be really tempted to recommend Head First Python for zero beginners though
Head First has its special magic to introduce people from zero level and to have it remembered

[buoyant seal]

Anyway, the roadmap i showed you
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/darklab8/darklab_backend_roadmap/master/swe_backend.drawio.svg
it has all the different resources u would need to understand where to go next at least. Start and go xD

[buoyant seal]

But eventually u need to reach this in order to build Google/FB stuff If we don't mention all the extra stuff like need for Designer, and having money assets to support infrastructure for search engines

[open stratus]

ok,i got it. How much time you in this scope?

[buoyant seal]

technically... it has no time limit. infinity lifetime to learn and keep up with the stuff. lifetime career.
in order to architect cloud solutions u a coming into territory where u a needed to have quite wide specter of knowledge, with deep knowledge in at least 1-3 specializations and than more then merrier. But all of it out of scope for human to learn at really deep level within one lifetime of career. Human usually can learn at deep level only one specialization. 2 is already kind of too much.

But essentially, if u are already having computer science degree
Having enough aptitude for that and lucky enough to acquire the right work experience
people can reach it in a time from 4 to 10 years of commercial work experience eventually
But that's surely not for everyone. Major amount of people never reach it in their lifetime of career even if they work in web development all their career.

[buoyant seal]

Well. Building solution intended for low amount of users, of a much more starting quality if way simpler though. I mentioned above stuff for level of Google/FB
And that's not mentioning the fact that they are build with... many developers

[buoyant seal]

To build something that looks like FB, u can do just within 1 year of learning probably from zero. But to perfect it, to ever growing demand of new business features, and handling millions of users traffic is another story.

[open stratus]

ok

and what about job? How much money junior programmer earn?

[buoyant seal]

it depends on a country. Salary difference is more than 10x between 1st world and 3d world countries for junior programmers (even up to 36x times difference)

googing "{Job_name} {Country_name} Salary Glassdoor" is helpful

[open stratus]

How programmers do deals with the sites and another programs. I just can create calculator and i don't understand, how thanks programming people can create sites,scripts. I guess it's not just programming in the PyCharm and using basic Python. I know about "модули"(i don't know how it is in English),that is something kinda using another files,by import his data to the another files. And i guess that it is a key for working with sites and etc. isn't?

[buoyant seal]

u can ask what u want in your native language i guess, i think i know it

[buoyant seal]

your question is a big ambigious... u can create sites with using stuff like Frontend and Backend framework (Flask in Python can do you..some full stack)
How it works? Basics for networking and how http requests, and browser handling them are needed to understand further. Usually it is learned during CS degree
U need at least... understanding concepts in order to know where u a going and where to dig further

[near sierra]

Hi can anyone suggest any project ideas that I can do and eventually add to my resume?

I am lacking in the personal projects department

[buoyant seal]

"Модули" or Packages, code architecture stuff, clean code, unit testing and etc, they are all about code quality, ensuring you have more room in your code to add stuff relatively easily. Otherwise your code can reach the point that it would not be within human reach to understand it xD That's about learning Software Engineering basically

Stuff like "Grokking Algorithms", and "Code Complete by MyConnel" are really helpful to move in this regard

Green squares in my roadmap are often related to code quality (they are actually for Software Engineering)
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/darklab8/darklab_backend_roadmap/master/swe_backend.drawio.svg
Yellow squared how to build server side of web sites, dealing with persistent data in databases usually (Backend)
Orange to make Graphical interface of web sites, the front (Frontend)
Deep purple = Speeding up development cycle and having scaling infrastructure to handle users (DevOps)
Light purple = Python specific knowledge

[open stratus]

тогда такой вопрос. Вообще в принципе можно создать любую программу,игру,сайт без сторонних вспомогательных программ? Просто используя знания языка программирования? Или же есть ещё необходимые факторы для реализации конкретных задач в дополнении к знаниям языка?

по типу программ помошников в кодирование читов,сайтов и тд

[buoyant seal]

There are always some used libraries, dependencies used. Nobody wishes to reinvent the wheel and building everything from zero. Code can be written even assemble, true, but it would take too much effort to write.
People are using at least libraries coming inbuilt with installed language (like CPython comes with Argparse, Contexlib, Asyncio and other common libraries)

[buoyant seal]

It is often easier to use already existing game engine like Unity to build something quickly. Than reinventing absolutely everything from zero. But even in case of going at a more Raw level, u need using stuff like OpenGL graphics, libraries to interact with Windows, and other more closely related to hardware stuff. U aren't really wishing to reinvent hardware
But u have ability to choose what u choose. If u know the advantages and disadvantages of each choice

[buoyant seal]

Learning System Design discipline, stuff for web like https://github.com/donnemartin/system-design-primer and just knowing which stuff exists and when to apply, that allows to make concocious choices regarding chosen software. When to use paid proprietary options, when to use open source software, and when it makes sense to write something your own from zero to fill the gap that is unique to you
U need to learn preferably software engineering, system design, and knowing ecosystem of your platform target in order to make the choices at conscious level

[buoyant seal]

Programms like that would require expertise in dissasembling programs (for cheats). Then acquired experience is transformed into programms like CheatEngine or Artmoney to help automating stuff doing the same at higher level

[buoyant seal]

For building sites people build CMSes like Wordpress and etc. It is just high level of web development expertise transformed into product to automate some niche

[open stratus]

грубо говоря,постоянно создаются новые программы,которые облегчают жизнь в программирование,но чисто теоретически можно обойтись и без них,но это "изобретение велосепеда"

[buoyant seal]

Computer Science degree for wide knowledge of basis + Expertise in specific field + Software engineering and System Design skills = That help you to develop product
But also preferably needed Business hunch in order to know how to sell it optionally

[buoyant seal]

It depends on the level of program
Some programms/libraries are just... solving for you driver problems, OS problems. You don't really wish to reinvent networking drivers and operational system like Linux in order to host your simple web site, right? Even if it is completely custom solution?

If you wish completely unique web site product you build with stuff Backend+Frontend framework, and learning web infra to scale it
If u need just a landing page representing one-two pages of stuff, or some other common solved tasks like even... electronic commerce shop of a common design and modules = u can just use CMS like Wordpress to build it

U a choosing necessary level of solutions solving some level of your.... solution which u don't need to solve for your problem.
U create unique stuff at the level u need.
If your stuff is not unique at all, u go to Wordpress and other No Code solutions

If u want your game being completely unique, and u are just learning how videocards work = u implement at raw level through opengl on your own
if u know that Unity ecosystem to create game is enough for you, and u will not need to go out of scope of its features (it would be extremely difficult because it locks u into its architecture/ecosystem as a cost for using it), then u use Unity to create game magnitude times much faster

[buoyant seal]

In the most ideal world... that sometimes happens for some languages and really specific products... all basic needs for program are solved (in majority at least) just from all the inbuilt things into language and its compiler. We just write higher level code, and compilter will ensure it will be working and having correct other stuff to work in the OS. (For similar reasons in web dev, we use Docker to abstract all dependencies into compiled container that can ran at any Linux OS btw)

Technically kind of similar stuff happens for Minecraft/Java at a different level. All of its needs are abstracted to run into Java Machine. Java Machine specific implementation to OS handles resolving lower(hardware) related problems. Thus making product more cross platform, because it is less depended onto specific OS

[buoyant seal]

So... this stuff is also depended on chosen language and its compiled and OS and etc etc. There are many variables to programing regarding everything (planning user interactions and interface, choosing technologies, choosing stages to implement product, choosing its architecture, chossing code quality attributes pursued in a product). Finding golden balance to fit your product, that's the task. Eventually with experience at deeper level u will be able to consider it if u will follow this path. Though as i said, people are often having specialization to work within smaller scope (at least within desktop development, or web development for example)

As beginners people just implement in the first way they can 🤷‍♂️
Experience comes later, and it comes only if they learn. Without learning it comes too, but much slower.

[viscid wigeon]

is there a developper job at a spacial agencies (whichever)

sry if im being stupid

[split oasis]

yeah

but might not be glamorous

[young smelt]

if it's build using LaTeX

[ivory sluice]

@open stratus please do not post in languages other than english as per our #rules
if you need to speak in Russian, you can do it in DMs.

[gritty rivet]

Yes, but those are probably super competitive. Start by checking the website of the relevant agencies. NASA has some IT related openings but no developer positions right now.

[round swallow]

where can i find it plz , is it a book or series of videos ?

[buoyant seal]

it is the best, brain friendly book. Special series of books made with psychological tricks to have it as much fun as possible to remember

[round swallow]

is it free ? is it available in the internet ?

[buoyant seal]

usually people buy it from a shop in papercover
it can be also bought in online shops like amazon or by subscription from O'reilly probably avilable
everything can be free for some 🏴‍☠️ people though

[buoyant seal]

https://www.amazon.com/Head-First-Python-Brain-Friendly-Guide/dp/1491919531/
https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/head-first-python/9781491919521/

[round swallow]

thank you !

[dark meadow]

@round swallow Send that to @severe widget (see #welcome for the procedure about reporting such things)

[open stratus]

thank you very much

[true harness]

any resources for optimizing a resume for ATS? preferably not paid

i've looked at https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/resumes-cover-letters/ats-resume-template and it seems ok?

[astral ermine]

I used a template from "wonsulting". You can get it for free.

[cold pulsar]

Hi All

[ebon night]

Hi

Anyone is here

[young smelt]

yes, everyone

[grave flare]

the sololearn app is a good start

[vapid jay]

i wanna become a machine learning engineer, now give me roadmap

[buoyant seal]

Tbh this msg should be pinned:

hubt — 09/22/2022
i warn everyone that wants to be in AI/ML: you spend a huge amount of time on data validation, cleanup, and analysis. and generally a lot less time than you'd think on the actual AI/ML part. unless your company has very mature data management and data pipelines(very few companies do), expect to spend a lot more time on data engineering than AI/ML
https://towardsdatascience.com/data-science-learning-roadmap-for-2021-84f2ba09a44f

[low snow]

Sorry I just want to rant a bit. I got an internship at a top-paying company in my country, just had a talk today with my mentor and somehow he didn't know I'm still in school. Then proceeded to tell me that since I'm still a third year I won't get a return offer even if I have good performance. Which is completely different from what HR said, he even said that if he knew I was still a student he would have said no, the shittiest thing is that I got offer from 3 teams within the company and I chose the one where the mentor doesn't support me to return at all and only think I'm here to intern then leave forever, I'm so demotivated right now and I have 2 months left of this.

[ivory sluice]

what did HR tell you originally?

[low snow]

That they want someone graduating at least 9 months away from when the internship and max 16 months.

And then based on my performance and education background they will decide discuss with my manager(mentor) whether or not to extend an offer

And then today I had my quarter meeting with my mentor and he told me nah you won't get one lol

[ivory sluice]

if you're third year currently was your plan to do a second internship and then get a full time offer?

or was the expectation to secure a full time offer now but start in a year(?)?

[low snow]

The latter, get a full time offer then start in a year

I don't think that's a rare thing isn't it? Many companies here don't even accept senior intern

[ivory sluice]

seems shortsighted of that mentor if you're a good potential asset

[low snow]

Yeah he said he wants me to finish my diploma first(?) I can't get a return offer and still finish my diploma? Honestly have no motivation to even go there tomorrow.

[ivory sluice]

still finish out your obligations, i don't think anything is final until everything is final, you know. and what would stop you from applying for a full time offer at that company down the road?

(i'll be back later, gotta run for now)

[low snow]

They are notorious for only hiring new grad through intern pipeline, and looking at my team it's true, everyone here is experienced.

[ivory sluice]

you're still a part of the intern pipeline

[low snow]

Yes but if I don't get a return offer then isn't that the same thing as not being in it? Unless I come back for a return internship next year, which might not even happen

[gilded valley]

It's possible there has been some miscommunication somewhere. Speak to whoever runs the HR side of internship and ask them what the deal is

[gilded valley]

Explain that what you hear from HR is different to what you hear from your mentor

[low snow]

To the mentor? Or to the HR?

[gilded valley]

to HR

[low snow]

Yeah I plan to do that tomorrow, but the one with the final decision is still my mentor

[gilded valley]

There's probably been some miscommunication somewhere. If it is between HR and your mentor, chances are that HR isn't powerless

[low snow]

The miscommunication here is that he didn't know I'm still in school in the first place. Somehow he missed that from the HR, he said he would have said no otherwise unless I'm close to my graduation

[gilded valley]

It is unlikely that you're aware of the full situation, and one person's perspective on what was miscommunicated how is rarely comprehensive.

There is a good chance that when he requested or agreed to take an intern, it was under some conditions from HR. An internship is a protracted interview, HR won't be happy if they've completely wasted the salary they spent on you, and there is a chance they can arrange interviews with other teams for you based on your mentor's feedback or something along those lines.

Speak to HR, make clear that:

• Some miscommunication has happened somewhere, and your manager is saying that he won't be able to make an offer
• Find an email or something from HR, where they explained the requirements (i.e the 9-16 month thing you mentioned), and say I was under the impression that it's completely fine that I'm a year away from graduating
• That you like the company, and want to come back, assuming your manager can't offer you a position directly, is there anything that can be worked out to find you a position somewhere else?

Chances are you don't have 0 agency in this situation - it might end up being that you have to make some connections in other parts of the business to see if there are any possible teams that might take you

[gilded valley]

if HR isn't helpful, then your best bet is to be proactive. Ask other interns to introduce you to people

[low snow]

Thank you that's some really good advices, I just scheduled a meeting with the HR in charge of me just now, gonna write down the points you told me and some of my own.

[low snow]

Yep I think this might be good too. I'm so frustrated since I only chose this team because the work is interesting, the project they give me is honestly much harder than the other teams. I worked so hard during the first month here and just got hit with this and it's insanely demotivating.

[gilded valley]

It really sucks, definitely sounds like a fuck up from your manager - but ultimately if you're doing good work, if your manager agrees that you're doing good work, then it makes sense for the company to try to find a position for you - you just need to keep up the quality of your work and consistently, but not overly-aggressively, push for it

(the idea that the person who gets the final say on whether or not you get an offer is called your "mentor" is bloody stupid - he's just your manager at that point)

[low snow]

He's my manager-mentor, there's a "manager" as well but I have met him only once or twice and I mainly work with my mentor. Doesn't help that he's the team lead so he has the most power when it comes to deciding who gets into the team.

[gilded valley]

It's definitely worth talking to him after you've spoken to HR then

[low snow]

The manager? Yeah but I don't think he has too much power when it comes to hiring.

[gilded valley]

It's just another person who might be able to help the situation

[low snow]

Yep I will schedule a quick 1-1 with him and HR on Monday since I work remotely tmr

I still don't get why being a third year means no return offer but welp

[oak wasp]

I have question, i see this job and how is it for junior? who can explain me? if i have 2+ year experience i am junior? o.O

[peak halo]

You're a "junior" for the first several years of your career. What this job listing tells me is that they don't want to take a chance on someone with prior industry experience if they can avoid it, but if you have experience with any of the things they listed, you should just apply anyway.

[oak wasp]

but if i haven't 2 year working experience but i am very good and i am like 2 year experience developer, what is happening then? it's so weird for me

[peak halo]

it's common for listings for junior positions to list two years of experience. like I said, just apply anyway and move on to the next listing.

[oak wasp]

okay thank you!

[vapid jay]

OH im blind so sorry! I also found the answer so yeah it doesn't matter anymore

[somber swift]

Guys is it worth getting in programming? Rn I’m working as a vet and field is great and all but I really love computers and programming is just real cool. So I was just wondering if it’s a safe job for future? Like what if all the trend die down or something and no one wants a coder anymore

Because of AI ofc

[vapid jay]

I don't think programming will ever die, you talking about ai? Isn't ai made by programmers?

[buoyant seal]

Programming will be the last job to die in the world.
Programmers will automate first all other jobs, and then someone would need to maintain and develop further their automations

The amount of knowledge needed is surely increasing though. Web developer today needs to know I think... Many more layers of different stuff than it was 10 years ago

Programming concepts, new tech tools, they all increase the amount of complexity developers can fight today. Increasing possible limit in how large scaled and sophisticated systems we build

[peak halo]

an AI that could take a problem statement and build a program that implements a solution would possibly be the greatest human achievement of all time. it's not about to happen. I don't think it will ever happen.

[somber swift]

Ya that’s the thing I’m worried about! Since I saw Programs like Open AI making amazing art and stuff and now there’s AI which can write a story of giving keywords

[peak halo]

so you're comparing image generation to program implementation. those two things might seem similar at the surface, but they're actually very very different.

(my current pfp is the result of "green wizard reading a book with a storm in the background")

I work as a computational linguist. there are some areas where computers can emulate the understanding of language very well. others, not so much. I don't think we'll see any advances in our lifetime that see the demand for programmers decrease across the board because the work can be automated.

[buoyant seal]

I hope to see within my lifetime. In 50 years or something some breakthrough in terms of AI

[buoyant seal]

But in reality I just expect to see more layers of technology abstractions

All problems in programming can be resolved with abstractions.... Except problem of having too many abstractions

[ivory sluice]

what i'm confused by is that the mentor expected you to have been a 4th year, but then you said most companies don't accept senior interns. wouldn't a senior intern be a 4th year? or am i misunderstanding

[dense mesa]

Is this amazon

[smoky quest]

That's most likely because it's so far out in the future that he doesn't feel comfortable making such promise (plus the required accounting/req/budget that go with it). I don't know any company which could promise anything so far out. Your manager may not even work there anymore or the team not even existing by the time you come back.
Things you could do:

• Suggest working there part time as a part time job
• From what you said, they would be willing to consider making you an offer once you get closer to graduation. So you can set a date in future to circle back

Things to consider on your side:

• Do you really want to lock yourself into something that far out in the future? I doubt you can predict and hold yourself to be locked 2+ years in the future. So many things can change and try to compare where you are now with where you were 2 years ago in terms of interests, knowledge, etc.
• Make sure to approach the situation tactfully and gracefully. If you are raising hell now for something 2+ years in the future, their opinion and interest in you may dramatically drop as you would appear to be a pain in the neck and not worth the trouble

[dense mesa]

Sounds like Amazon SDE where they won't offer unless you can start within a month

[smoky quest]

Every companies I know about won't make an offer unless you graduate within ~12-15months.
I even worked at a company where their policy was to not have return offer and to only have interns who were not in their final year. The weird part is that it was a pretty popular tech company.

But the 1month thing seems rather tight if there is a class or two to wrap up before graduation.

[nimble rampart]

Hi

Which is good for engineering Computer science engineering specialization in cyber security or normal computer science engineering?

Considering job opportunitys after graduation

[gilded valley]

American Express made me an offer 2 years before I graduated

[gritty rivet]

These titles alone don't mean much, you have to look at the specific program. Beyond that, obviously the cybersecurity specialization is helpful if you're sure you want to specialize in that, and otherwise probably not

[placid sail]

Is AI engineer a good job since I’m about to enter university and I thought that it would be fun to make AIs since I find them really interesting since I was a child

[gritty rivet]

A well paid job, with demand for experienced engineers? Sure. But if you're only about to enter university, I wouldn't worry about that just yet, focus on exploring and learning as much as you can and your career will follow

[peak halo]

Take some AI related courses and see how you feel. It's more about math and theory than it is about software engineering, and it's difficult to predict whether you'd find it appealing based on your known interests.

[summer roost]

Even if it did happen, it would require a rigorously defined problem statement as input, and someone would still need to do the job of translating desired behavior into rigorously defined problem statements, and that would be the job programmers would occupy in the new world

[low snow]

Yes that's the problem, there's a huge miscomunication between the HR and the team. He straight said that if I knew I was still "in school" he would have said no, not even fourth year.

[low snow]

I understand that as well so I'm not pushing too hard for now, but I graduate in March 2023 and the internship finishes in December 2022, so it's only a little bit more than 1 year and not 2+ years and I don't think it's too unusual to receive an offer around 1 year before you graduate.

[smoky quest]

I guess I am not fully understanding the situation. I thought you meant you were beyond the 9-16 months away from graduation. Nevermind then.
In that case, you aren't even 1 year away from graduation.

[low snow]

Sorry, that was a typo, I mean I graduate in March 2024

So a bit more than a year after I finish the internship

[smoky quest]

lmao, alright. Then I am back to my first message 😉
March 2024 would be way too far out for most companies

[low snow]

I would think so as well, but they list their requirements as graduating in Sep 2023 - March 2024, so if I'm a fourth-year student I straight up don't qualify as an intern? That's why I'm so confused

And the reason why I want to lock myself into this company is because unlike in the US, where I live there are not many places that pay a high salary for new grads. And this company is one of the rare fews.

[smoky quest]

Also to be clear, by return offer, you mean a return offer for a full time job once you graduate, and you don't mean a return offer for an internship next year, right?

[low snow]

Yes of course, I mean a return offer for an internship is fine too if that further my chances.

[smoky quest]

do software engineers stay at the same company their whole career in your country?

[low snow]

Not really no, or at least not for people around me, but starting point is very important since they really like to ask for your previous compensation and base their offer on that.

[hot jewel]

You sign a bond for a couple of years in some cases, if that gives you more info thats useful

[vapid jay]

hi , anyone around to talk?

[peak halo]

There are often people reading this channel, but you have to say what you want to talk about.

[vapid jay]

i see, thank you

[slim loom]

hey guys

[fair tapir]

What is Java used for

[peak halo]

Maintaining legacy code 🔥

[vapid jay]

I'm a little lost right now so I just wanted to ask some questions to help refocus my career goals:

One of my goals is to get more responsibility and be allowed to take on more daunting tasks, around the technologies that i'm interested in.

1. So, how do I achieve this goal generally speaking?

I don't seem to fully understand the value I bring to the table

2. How do I figure out my value and build that value to the industry, outside of the role at my company?

3. If my current job prevents me from continuing to build my skills due to lack of or gatekeeping of opportunities, how do I find those opportunities?

Edit: I'm at 2 years of exp in my field

[fair tapir]

I have no clue what “legacy code” is lol

[peak halo]

old code bases that are primarily maintenance-only

[fair tapir]

Just become the next Walter white and Ur all good no need to worry about any of those points

[vapid jay]

whats the non-troll answer?

[peak halo]

Can you give more context? What kind of job do you have currently?

Have you discussed these concerns with your manager? Because they should be willing to help you develop.

[fair tapir]

Say I mastered c++ would it then be easy to learn Java and python

[vapid jay]

Sure, I'm a junior software engineer in embedded systems space who has been working at my company for 2 years. The past 4-5 months, the team I'm on, my tech lead doesn't seem to trust me to do big important tasks. He just has me do bug fixes and testing. Honestly, its really frustrating because I don't feel like I'm growing. I feel that he gives those opportunities to the other junior SWE more and of course the senior SWEs

[peak halo]

one of our moderators is largely a C++ developer, and he said that C++ is the most complicated widely-used language today. So yes, if you can "master" C++ (which would probably take several years at best), you should be able to pick up any other language that uses OOP, procedural, or imperative programming styles.

[fair tapir]

c++ is used in game development mostly right?

[peak halo]

is your tech lead on this team the person who's primarily in charge of you?

[vapid jay]

yes

its just him and me locally and a few weeks ago, another jr SWE was added to our team. Actually, I think i'm the person who does the work that no one else wants to do...

[fair tapir]

I wanna learn to hack so I can troll those scammers who always call my phone lol

[peak halo]

I don't know that it's used mostly in game development, but in general, it's used for performance-critical programs that benefit from features that don't exist in C. (C is a very high-performance language, but is minimal and difficult to write and debug at scale.)

[delicate bane]

have you shown initiative with helping others with their tasks especially if what you find is easy + you complete your tasks quickly and accurately

[vapid jay]

hmm, how do you do this effectively? what I do often is provide feedback if people ask for it on design stuff and I help people if they have questions

[half kelp]

Is anyone working as data scientist?

[somber swift]

Ahh I’m 23 and currently working as a vet but I want always want to do CS is it worth it if I take admission in university just to get Cs degree or should I just start learning coding, i already know HTML and little bit of python. So can someone tell me if it is worth getting a CS degrees or should I just get a 1-2 year diploma in coding? Or just work learning online and preparing for interviews

[maiden fog]

should I show this code to prospective employers? https://paste.pythondiscord.com/hepayesomo

[buoyant seal]

Sounds like your age and background are best fitting to get jumpstart of your career through CS degree first

People from courses or without them are competing with 4 years graduated of CS degree, and usually filtering done just by the fact of having degree for starting people

People with already previous job experience in similar fields could afford trying to go without degree, but it looks like not your case.

I would recommend going for bachelor degree perhaps. Usually that is more than enough

[somber swift]

Well I want to do it from Australia or Canada but I think the cost is bit high because college here in aren’t that great but I’m just worried I’m won’t be able to pay my student loan

[hasty harness]

same thing mate

but i am 25

I have same target, but the I am confused to go to USA for comp sci or Europe for data science

[buoyant seal]

U a better be adviced by people here from your countries then. Although i could say, that if u have access to those countries then ... If u aren't going to change career you will be easily able to pay loan back within several years of a career. It just years dedication and certainty:
Do u agree to become Software Engineer? Do u have tech curiosity and able to dig answers for questions? Do u agree being humble, curious, professionally honest, creative, and following discipline rules? Do u agree to educate yourself your whole career to be better than u a yesterday?

If answer is yes, yes, yes, yes, then highly likely u will pay your loan back within time of quickly becoming professional

[buoyant seal]

Software engineering has all the resources for quick learning today. It just takes finding the path and dedication, and right soft skills to go (Some of them are supposed to be acquired during university, if there were not present before)

[azure cobalt]

hi guys about to start 30 days of python

any one willing to join?

[gritty rivet]

Wrong channel, maybe try #python-discussion

[tame forge]

hey I need an advice
I have been learning python for data science - interacting with DB, file handling, numpy, pandas, analysis, visualization
I will also use it to implement ML algorithms learning
but have decided to study DSA in some other lang (ig coz there are a lot of stuff u cant learn in python)

so should I learn in java or cpp?
preferably one which would help in some real life applications and one that many help in ML too(?)

I dont have a particular career priority rn.
Just liked ML so trying out
will try out a few things to choose best one for me
So I wanna do DSA in whatever will benefit the most as a software engineer and I could use into other areas - Backend, building desktop apps, I do have quite good interest in hardware code too (second thing I was interested in after ML) etc. (as i said not sure what i will go with finally)

PS- i have some prior exp with cpp (altho will need to revise)
i also hava a java course this semester

[buoyant seal]

As person who learned DSA in C++ during university, and later using as primary language python in commercial programming. I can assure u there is no real difference in which language u learn DSA

Well, the only possible difference is only that some data structures can be reimplemented in a real way only at the level of language having pointers to memory though
in languages without it, it would be only simulated, which should be supposedly fine too.

[tame forge]

Hmm
i see
i also one thing dont want to limit my job options by learning only one thing
idk but i get very different suggestions by my seniors so really confused 😅

[buoyant seal]

ergh. I think u should learn DSA in CPP then
because i checked, Java has no pointer data types

Since your interests align to desktop and hardware related development, better doing it in CPP for better... foundation i guess

[buoyant seal]

Also getting some additional practice in CPP, could be beneficial for your python skills too. Because it is possible to make C++ insertions into Python code 🙂
Just for lools of getting hang of one of aspects of expert level performance optimizations xD

[tame forge]

Ye
actually thats what i thought 😅
also machine learning algorithms and numpy too are written in cpp it seems

[buoyant seal]

exactly. As well as CPython. Python is written in C i think

[tame forge]

thanx for the advice
any suggestions on managing DSA and the python data science thing side by side?

[buoyant seal]

👀 what do you mean? could u rephrase your question?

[tame forge]

I am doing a python Data science course by ibm actually
also learning maths for ML
so gonna implement in python
(well i also have related course in uni so had to do anyways 😅 )
*i am not sure if i will continue it in the future but just trying a few things to see what i like doing

[buoyant seal]

i see no defined questions to answer

[tame forge]

oh sorry
i meant like any suggestions to manage DSA in cpp along with that 😅 side by side?

[buoyant seal]

Ah, that. I think vscode is swiss multi tool to handle any language

it should be pretty much fine to work with both languages in vscode

at least if u ask for IDE

[tame forge]

😳
I meant like in any suggestions for doing the stuff at the same time (like how much time would u suggest to separate b/w the 2)
I want to complete fresher interview level DSA in ~8-9months

[buoyant seal]

u mean how to handle time management?

[tame forge]

ye like time distribution that u think should have b/w DSA & python DS/ML

[buoyant seal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH8yT3doasI

[tame forge]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/804166769605345301.gif?v=1

lol
anyways thanx for the suggestions 🙂

[buoyant seal]

u a welcome.
I would mention though, that DSA is quite often asked in interviews among data scientists i think. Or at least i have this impression
So DSA is just one skill among basic stuff to learn stuff further

If u wish to learn DS/ML then it is your priority to have real skills and knowledge being expert in this regard, but at the same time...

I mentioned that this thing should be pinned for data scientists: #career-advice message

[tame forge]

oh yeah ik that
i have seen some interview tests
40% DSA questions atleast

[buoyant seal]

If i see it correctly, then in reality you would be expected to have Data Engineering knowledge besides DS/ML
So your final expected fields to learn will be Data Engineering / Software Engineering / Math / DS/ML
And DSA fits here as one of basic skills in software engineering / expected stuff for DS/DE

[tame forge]

oh since that msg mentions data engineering, what language is used in that the most?
I see most beginner jobs to be in either data analysis or data engineering only. i see min. 2 years exp in data field for ML jobs
i like engineering part quite a lot ngl
i am already quite familiar with using linux and CLI too

[buoyant seal]

I think u could concentrate pretty much fine in becoming Data Engineer in Python along side for your stuff to learn Python for DS/ML
Python fits all those fields

[buoyant seal]

The real difference will be in learning related ecosystem for Data Engineering and for DS/ML. That will be the difference

[buoyant seal]

it will be like...
python is shared and software engineering skills too

Python:
Standard lib (itertools, generators, datetime etc):
Parallelism (threads, processes, GIL):
AsyncIO:
OOP:
Unittests:
Integration tests:
Testing tools (pytest, unittest, mock):
and etc

Then ecosystem for data engineering

Data Engineering/ETL
DWH theory (datalakes, OLAP/OLTP, Star/Showflake):
Pandas/numpy:
scikitlearn:
Apache Airflow
Spark:
AWS Step Functions (or any similar):
AWS Glue (or any similar):

Then ecosystem for your DS/ML: insert roadmap for DS/ML from link above here

The only awkward thing about it all, that a bit too much of stuff is asked
but i guess that's why it is so high paid profession

[tame forge]

yeah lol
i was overwhelmed by the amount of diff. techs used when i read roadmap lol

[buoyant seal]

Well. My roadmap is equally horrible in this regard 🙂 To learn all stuff for Software Architect path in Cloud Solutions is more or less too much of different stuff too

important i guess to choose one of paths leading to final role

[tame forge]

the towards data science link u shared is ur roadmap?

[buoyant seal]

nah. My roadmap starts from here
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/darklab8/darklab_backend_roadmap/master/swe_backend.drawio.svg
Goes among
Backend and DevOps paths:
https://roadmap.sh/backend
https://roadmap.sh/devops
While also learning Software Engineering stuff
And expects to get hand of system design of web solutions here as a final outcome eventually
https://github.com/donnemartin/system-design-primer#index-of-system-design-topics

From Backend Developer / DevOps engineer to Software Architect basically going

Oh nice, roadmap.sh made roadmap for software architect too
https://roadmap.sh/software-architect

[tame forge]

specially with reading job descriptions lol
also with people saying no jobs for freshers (atleast here in india)

[tame forge]

:floshed:
that roadmap gonna take a few hours to read lol
again, thaks for all the suggestions

[buoyant seal]

U a welcome. xD we can compare all this stuff with Pokemon evolution kind of.

[undone cedar]

Has anyone had experience getting their first choice job after school? I am in this career field and I am helping a friend get into it! Trying to start back from the basics for him and tell him experiences from other people trying to do the same.

[near ocean]

What does first choice job mean? You mean a "dream" job first time? Very rare experience

[peak halo]

my first job out of university was the specific position with the specific company that I wanted, but I had spent years cultivating a specific skillset for that. and part of it was also luck.

if you have a "dream job" in mind, the best way to get it is probably to get an internship doing it, since those can turn into full time positions.

and I realize that just moves the question to "how do you get that internship?" and truth be told, I'm not sure other than doing well in school and interviewing well.

[near sierra]

Hi, I've worked for 3.5 years as a backend engineer. I quit my job 10 months ago due to health issues now I'm looking into getting back into the game.

The problem is, I've only held the said one job in my life..how do I make it look appealing in my resume? It would be helpful if I could get some advice on this..

[mortal wedge]

Having one job like that for 3 and a half years isn't a problem. What you want to do is have a few bullet points with quantifiable results of things you accomplished, especially ones that had major impact on the business. So something like, for example * Developed an algorithmic strategy that improved efficiency by 30% * or *Developed a 1000 line codebase that allowed for business expansion across the country * something like that maybe

[gritty rivet]

A strong portfolio of projects could also help balance your work history

[smoky quest]

People step out of work for months/years all the time. Life happen.
Just don't lie about it or misrepresent facts. You already got 3.5 years of experience, which isn't negligible. As long as you perform well in interviews, it won't be a problem

[white merlin]

hi guys, I need some advice
I have been coding in python for almost 3 years now, I mostly made crypto trading bots and web scraping bots
I have some experience with js, sql, html, css and git.
a couple of months ago I started learning react , and 2 weeks ago I started learning django.
right now I am making a "clone" of cutt.ly [django,react,postgre] , with the following features

• log in/sign up
• backup data on the cloud
• access to information on every single click (country , unix time, user agent, referrer , browser, os ..)
• access to private API
  and qr code generation
  [in the future I might turn this into a business and make some futures paid]
  will finishing a project like this guarantee me an internship/jr level position in the uk ?(london)

[buoyant seal]

it depends on quality of code u a going to write 🙂
But definitely will be a bonus into your portfolio regardless of the level u write. Because it is nice to see people getting hang of stuff and having something to present

There is no guarantees in anything, but increasing your skills u increase chances with some set of job vacancies wishing to find Dev with this set of skills.

Then more skills u acquire and closer matching their 100% expectations, then higher the chance to get position in vacancy X

The trick is kind of learning necessary skills combining themselves greatly to those expectations...
... And having soft skills to sell yourself

Well, and making sure to learn unspoken stuff but it is assumed too

[buoyant seal]

To get more precise advices u could be wishing to share resume to here

[delicate bane]

isnt the tech job market kinda tough atm? or is that just "anecdata"?

[buoyant seal]

It is kind of always though. At least he has three years of already using python. Although he did not say if it was commercial experience

[delicate bane]

oh i heard recently there were a number of layoffs in tech

[buoyant seal]

Tech job market is highly likely going to become only tougher

[buoyant seal]

Yeah. Such stuff happens, but highly likely they will be distributed to new jobs quite quickly if they are devs.
But usually not Devs are fired though

In first order other people are getting fired usually, but not always

[delicate bane]

ahh this is where i saw it https://news.crunchbase.com/startups/tech-layoffs-2022/

take it with a grain of salt, etc.

[white merlin]

aight, I am still building a resume
I can drop you my github (I have a project with 150 stars)
https://github.com/behind24proxies

[delicate bane]

nice name and description

[white merlin]

it was not commercial experience, I am 19 and just finished high school

[delicate bane]

any plans for uni or no?

have you considered apprenticeships?

[white merlin]

I applied for the university of greenwich , they rejected because I did not have high marks , I will have to a 9 to 5 this year because my father does not want me "playing on the computer"
I am planning on get my linux + before next september and don't go to uni

I have a friend that goes to uni, he said that they are still studying if end else statements

[white merlin]

here in the uk they only have summer apprenticeships , summer just finished 💀

[oak wasp]

i have question with non native english speaker, when you are working abroad (for example on remote) is it required very high level of your english? for example i can chatting, and i am trying improve myself while speaking but at this moment i can't talk grammaticaly correct in many situation, but i can say what i want. is it problem?

or what do u think other? for example native speakers

if you were boss, would it be problem?

[delicate bane]

hmm are you sure you arent referring to internships? tech apprenticeships typically last a year or more

[balmy spade]

Where I work there is only the expectation of communication. It doesn't matter if you can speak perfect English or broken English. Both sides need to have the patience to communicate with the other.

[oak wasp]

but when there are meeting what is happening then? if i didn't understand very well everything, then i can ask questions in chat or in DM with manager. is it not big problem?

[balmy spade]

It will greatly depend on your work environment. When our CTO gets excited and animated nobody really understands what she's saying. We have to call her out to slow down! But that's the atmosphere we have, a very inclusive and welcoming group. That's not shared everywhere.

If I'm in a meeting and I'm struggling to understand someone speaking whether through my own hearing impairment, their accent, or both then I say something. "Could you rephrase that part?", "Do you mind repeating that for me?", or just "Let me repeat back what I'm hearing just to make sure I understand."

There are polite ways to handle a communication barrier brought on by accents, disability, and such. There are rude ways too. Hopefully you only need to deal with the polite ways. :)

Honestly, the world is too small today for something as simple as a heavy accent or broken language knowledge to be a valid reason for a "big problem".

But that's a perfect world view and I know the world isn't perfect. :(

[oak wasp]

my dream is working remote in abroad company but i think language is my barrier at this moment

[balmy spade]

If the company hires you, the language isn't a barrier.

[buoyant seal]

usually just B2-C1 chatting level is required. Audio speeches happen... well at least for interviews all the time
B2 with tech orientation can speak pretty well on tech topics usually

[balmy spade]

What is "B2-C1"?

[oak wasp]

yeah interview is hard part

C1 ? are u kidding me?

[buoyant seal]

CEFR english levels, From A1 to C2 for second language learners. Native speakers are C2-D2 speakers there. C2 is considered maximum for non native
Usually evaluated by IELTS/TOEFL/Cambridge exams
Same CEFR levels for other languages are present

[oak wasp]

C1 is fluent 😂

[balmy spade]

So a combination of a developed nation and education platforms. Explains why I didn't understand at first. This looks interesting, thank you. :)

[quasi fern]

hey guys, i found a possible job with small pay and the chance to practise, my knowledge in programming is very very low, basicaly i just know html and css and even that is far from perfect, so i would need a CV to send them with such short knowledge... any solid CV template that would suit my case ?

[buoyant seal]

for example immigration into Canada requires passing language exams in English or French. They accept their local exams or IELTS general.
For high skilled workers they demand knowing language at least 6.0 in IELTS (middle B2 level) in all four sections: Reading, Writing, Speaking, Listening

Everything is already standartized in this regard at least for English

[balmy spade]

Very reasonable on the outside. I've not run across this in my fields though now I wonder if the US uses the same system or one of its own. The things I learn.

So it summarized what I tried to put into words much better; If you can communicate enough then the remaining barriers are easy to work around.

[buoyant seal]

Sure. Since C1... the lowest rank of it, i am already not experiencing problems with communications more or less. I am only getting.... confused when a lot of people speak at once in voice, or they use some hard to understand accents. Hopefully with continued practice i will understand more horrible accents / quicker getting fast speeches

[balmy spade]

Hmm... this goes off-topic but I wonder how hearing disability plays into this. I cannot hold a conversation, for example, in a group of more than two people speaking at once. I can't separate the noise into speech. (I'm basically deaf in public areas) Accents throw me off at first, but give me two or three minutes to get used to you and we're good.

[buoyant seal]

Communications are important. We are as developers, need to squeeze functional and non functional requirements from clients and even from other devs (ergh at least at senior level it is expected skill, and at middle level too if in company with good quality standards). Lack of communicational skills will close at least leader positions possibly

Kind of controversial, people think that development for people with poor communications skills, but than higher dev rank then more it is expected to have them. Or depending on the role.

There is good side to all of it though. Many developers in the world have English as second language xD We need just to reach C2 and then probably our career will not be restricted at all i think. Since it would be more or less highest not native language level among majority devs in the world

[quasi fern]

hey guys, i found a possible job with small pay and the chance to practise, my knowledge in programming is very very low, basicaly i just know html and css and even that is far from perfect, so i would need a CV to send them with such short knowledge... any solid CV template that would suit my case ? guys i could rly use some help with these, i am new in programming and i dont even know where to begin with a CV for programming.

[true harness]

have you looked online? there are tons of templates

[rare knoll]

hi all, probably a really rough question, but i want to get back into coding & hopefully find a coding entry level type junior coding job somewhere, but i really don't know what to do exactly... should i make a portfolio with projects? what kind of things do people want done with python at a workplace that I could start preparing for now?

[gilded valley]

What is your starting point? Do you have a degree or work experience (relevant or otherwise)?

What country are you in as well

[rare knoll]

i have my associate's degree in IT from a local community college, and a certificate. i don't have any real world experience... other than a small internship i could put down, but that was over 10 years ago

US

[gilded valley]

So what have you been up to for the last 10 years? Presumably some kind of work, is it anything that you could pivot from into an engineering role?

[rare knoll]

the past few years; i've been making a youtube business for gaming videos... so it'd be quite a stretch

[gilded valley]

Ah yeah. No easy path there, but it's at least something that people will find interesting to talk about in job interviews

[rare knoll]

yah... i don't have any real world coding experience, and have no idea how to even start

[gilded valley]

I'm a junior developer in the UK, so my experience is quite distant from yours. But the two paths that seem like that might make sense would either be doing a bootcamp, or getting your bachelors

[rare knoll]

yah true, i didn't think about a bootcamp
i'll look into those two options, tyty

[gilded valley]

Here's a decentish hacker news post talking about bootcamps https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31229504

leesec

My experience getting a tech job with no degree or relevant work experience

Hacker News · May 1, 2022, 10:50 PM

[rare knoll]

tysm

[sweet gorge]

so it is possible to get a Python-related job with no formal education and some IT related work experience?

kind of looking for a job but I just turned 18 this year and just started college

[smoky quest]

Possible? Yes.
Would it lead to the same jobs or outcome? No.

If you are 18 and in college, the best path is to get a CS degree

[sweet gorge]

already taking CS, just need something for now to get some funds

[smoky quest]

So you are talking about a side job?
In that case, it's more rare to find a CS related part time job, but they do exist. There are also more traditional student jobs

[sweet gorge]

yes, company that I was working for in IT resale is getting barely any business right now so they could not have me work

[smoky quest]

yeah that's tough

[sweet gorge]

considered tech support

though I am not that social

[sweet gorge]

what should I look for?

[true harness]

typical stuff: flipping burgers, stocking shelves, etc. it's also possible to get a summer internship, but it's difficult as a freshman

[sweet gorge]

it would be weird going from fixing chromebooks to working at mcdonalds, kind of need something at this point though

was hoping my somewhat IT related experience would be useful for something

[true harness]

possibly, it would help your resume out for internships, but those would be in like 7 months

[sweet gorge]

I did have an application get accepted for a tech support job, did do a one-way interview, waiting for a response at this point.

[summer roost]

there may be jobs around campus that might be options for you. Universities own a fair amount of hardware, and might hire students on for tech support jobs, or for A/V jobs, or things like that. You might be able to wind up with a TA position, or something like that, too - though probably not until your second year.

[open grove]

Hello Everyone! I'm new here - thank you for having me! I was wondering where I might go to get some help on a particular programming challenge I am having

[sweet gorge]

if it is python related, you can go to a help channel

[summer roost]

not in the #career-advice channel 🙂

See #❓｜how-to-get-help , or ask in #python-discussion

[open grove]

oh derp

thank you very sorry ❤️

[toxic pier]

https://docs.python.org/3.10/tutorial/index.html

[torn sorrel]

how important is it to have a research paper to do masters in cs abroad

[hexed haven]

how good does one have to be in their respective programming language before they can apply for freelance jobs on fiverr and upwork

[dense mesa]

Was going to respond but your profile description is disgraceful

[torn sorrel]

ok now respond

duck 360

[dense mesa]

You could have no experience and apply, you could know how to print statements and maybe someone out there would find that valuable enough to pay for. Depends on the customer and what you're willing to do

[torn sorrel]

upwork doesnt care . you can just make an account and start applying for jobs

[vapid jay]

hello

[bold arch]

hello

[woeful spruce]

How strong are your python skills?

[icy fern]

There's a job posted on LinkedIn that I'd like clarification on, should I connect/message the recruiter?

[sweet gorge]

intermediate, mainly with Flask

[gritty rivet]

Yes

[gritty rivet]

Won't hurt to apply. It's hard to find truly entry level jobs where that's enough, but they do exist. If you get no interviews, you work more on your skills and/or resume until something works out.

[gritty rivet]

But given that you're just starting college, I agree with what was said earlier about not expecting the most relevant work experience, do whatever you need to do to get the most out of school

[sweet gorge]

good point

[icy fern]

This is a bit of a weird question. I finished virtually all of my BSc degree, except a test I had to skip because of being sick. I was given an additional date for the test, but it'll be next semester.
My university has allowed me to take Masters courses, so in practice I am starting my Masters though technically I need to finish my BSc to "formally" be enrolled.

should I write that I'm beginning my Masters in my CV? I'm beginning Masters courses in a few weeks.

[buoyant seal]

It will affect your job in not being capable to do full time. (U a busy with studies)
Besides that it has no really value until u finish

[icy fern]

Well, the question is whether I should apply to jobs for Masters students or not.

and if so, how would I write this in my CV, even? I don't have an end date for my BSc

[gilded valley]

On your CV, I'd suggest rolling the MSc and BSc into one - so just do "2019-2023 BSc/MSc <university>". Then just apply as normal to jobs/internships as though you already had the bachelors and are just starting the masters

[woeful spruce]

I have to imagine there is a need for flask at a cheap price on Upwork or something. Heck, maybe even as a tutor.

[rare knoll]

thought about it long & hard, going to take 6 months off to study as much as i possibly can, get a few online certifications, sort of bootcamp myself, make some projects on github to show, and try to work in a few groups, put that all into my resume then look for a very low starting junior/entry position, then go back to school as I apply for internships, jobs, contracts, etc. i only have 2 years left in school so that's a while i could look for something
ty again for all the help!

[near ocean]

6 months off uni? the fastest way to a developer position is to get a degree, not to self-bootcamp

[gilded valley]

I'd definitely agree with Mariosis. 6 months of self-study is something that's quite difficult to actually make effective (e.g online certifications are pretty worthless), a bootcamp or finishing your bachelors definitely seems like it would make more sense

[cinder nymph]

it really depends on your country, in my country fresh grads get a job offer usually since we are in dire need or programmers. Even who finished bootcamps get offers

[near ocean]

the country stated is the US and is most certainly a misplay to drop out of uni for a bootcamp

[rare knoll]

ahh my bad i miscommunicated; i am not going to uni atm, haven't been in a long time, been doing retail jobs for 10+ years

[gilded valley]

Yeah, there's some more context up here @near ocean

[vapid jay]

Hi guys, anyone from Canada who can help me to get IT job. If anyone here please me know

[smoky quest]

What kind of help do you expect?

[vapid jay]

I completed my college in August. Now I’m looking for a job in IT industry

[smoky quest]

Linkedin and and indeed are the most popular places to look for job in the US.
Note: we don't do job ads here

[vapid jay]

Yeah I’m using that but no one is responding on it

[smoky quest]

Then it may be related to your resume or the jobs you are applying to. Feel free to post an anonymized version of your resume here for feedback

[vapid jay]

Yeah sure

[inner wren]

Hey @vapid jay!

It looks like you tried to attach file type(s) that we do not allow (.pdf). We currently allow the following file types: .gif, .jpg, .jpeg, .mov, .mp4, .mpg, .png, .mp3, .wav, .ogg, .webm, .webp, .flac, .m4a, .csv, .json.

Feel free to ask in #community-meta if you think this is a mistake.

Hey @vapid jay!

It looks like you tried to attach file type(s) that we do not allow (.docx). We currently allow the following file types: .gif, .jpg, .jpeg, .mov, .mp4, .mpg, .png, .mp3, .wav, .ogg, .webm, .webp, .flac, .m4a, .csv, .json.

Feel free to ask in #community-meta if you think this is a mistake.

[vapid jay]

here my resume

[gritty rivet]

If you have any work experience whatsoever, it may be worth including it.

[vapid jay]

I’m a fresher, I have no experience related to my studies

[gritty rivet]

Understood, what I'm getting at is that an irrelevant work history (if you have anything) is usually better than no work history at all

[vapid jay]

Ohh I see I’ll do it. Thank you :))

[timber lagoon]

what python skills are employers looking for? as in, are there any particular frameworks/modules that are in "high demand" or that look good

[gilded valley]

It depends on the domain in question - it's pretty difficult to give a broad answer to that. Python isn't often the main ask for a lot of jobs, although when it is they're usually asking for things like Django or FastAPI. But for e.g data engineering or data science, the language is secondary and the underlying skills are what matter more

[gritty rivet]

The best way to get a handle on this is to look at relevant job listings in your country

[misty ruin]

What are the main languages I have to know before getting an internship?

[smoky quest]

it depends on the type of internship you are interested in along with your location, education level, etc.

[peak halo]

it's going to depend on the internship. there isn't a set of languages that every developer is expected to know.

[misty ruin]

Ok, thank you both!

[paper badge]

Hey guys how important is a high school diploma in getting a job in this industry?

[smoky quest]

It's important in the sense it helps you get into college/university

[paper badge]

Alright that makes sense

[torn sorrel]

guys

how important is it to write a research paper if i want to do masters in cs abroad and if i am not in a top tier college

atm

[smoky quest]

What matter are the acceptance criteria of the colleges you have in mind

different countries and colleges will have different priorities and selection criteria

[torn sorrel]

criterion is very vague

[smoky quest]

email them

[torn sorrel]

its like good gpa good english proficiency many LOR

and there is still no guarantee you will get selected

[smoky quest]

Also most BS do not include any research paper or component.

[dark arrow]

how common is it for CS masters programs in US unis to accept bachelors in electronics?

[summer roost]

"electronics"? That's a bachelor's? I know people who went on to CS master's degrees after Electronic and Computer Engineering degrees, or after Electrical Engineering degrees

[dark arrow]

most unis here offer B.Techs or B.Es in electronics and they're the most sought after programmes after CS

[summer roost]

Ah - India, right?

[dark arrow]

yeah

[summer roost]

I've figured out that I don't understand India's system. At all. Even a little bit.

It seems extremely different to the US and western Europe. I'm gonna refrain from giving any advice rather than risk giving bad advice

[dark arrow]

in grade 11, you get to choose to pursue science, commerce or humanities
after grade 12, science students split further into engineering, medicine and basic science. students who decide to pursue engineering appear for a few entrance exams
universities release cutoff ranks in these exams for various undergrad courses, and you get allotted to a course you qualify for (the admission depends solely on your performance in these exams, there's no separate application process for every uni)
after 4 years of doing an engineering undergrad you get a B.Tech (or less commonly a B.E in some unis) degree. a large part of students then choose to get a job, others choose to go into higher studies and get masters and phds

roughly speaking the demand for the major engineering courses is in the order CS > electronics > electrical > mechanical > chemical > civil

as things stand i'm looking to get admitted to a fairly good uni with electronics

long term, i'm not sure whether i want a job right out of undergrad or whether i want to go into higher studies but if i do want a masters i'll be trying for US universities

if they want proof of cs experience i suppose i'll have to bother cs profs at my uni for research or something but i don't think that'll be that simple either

[vapid jay]

Is there any roadmap for python networking

[elfin abyss]

Out of curiosity, what's the general distinction between electronics and electrical engineering in your country

Does electrical have a larger focus on like power systems and whatnot and electronics is more about embedded systems?

[dark arrow]

there's a decent overlap between cs electronics and ee, but yeah ee has stuff like power systems and electrical machines that ec doesnt, ec has stuff like embedded systems and electronic circuits that ee doesnt

ec also has a lot more programming

[elfin abyss]

Wouldn't mind if we had that here so I can skip out on the power systems stuff 👀

[buoyant seal]

Networking is generic stuff not tied to language at all. Choose any good related resources to learn. Don't limit yourself to python for that

[radiant creek]

hey guys should i take computer science or software engineering

[true harness]

C. not enough information.

what's the difference between them? what are you career goals? what country is this?

[terse wharf]

so i just got into the cs course into the university of my choice i wanna be an ethical hacker any advices ?

[true harness]

take electives that focus on that

[vague bloom]

John Hammond on YouTube is a great start too

[tulip jungle]

Computer science

[smoky stump]

Hi, guys, I do not know whether is this a proper place to ask the question but it seems to me okay to ask, I have been taking System Network course for about 1 month and I have more than 100 days to finish this course but also I want to interested in Security part of this job and every one offers me to learn Python, especially in case if I want to change my career from System Network to the Cyber Security. So I wanna ask does anyone know which path I should follow in order to learn Python for Cyber Security as well?

[shadow moss]

Good reading/writing courses. Basic scripting for Python, nothing too special

[smoky stump]

Oh really? It is good then I thought I need to learn deeply

[shadow moss]

most cybersecurity jobs is run the tool, take the output of the tool, write report, circular file report. Rinse/Repeat

you are cop of tech world with about as much respect as most cops get. Only top 1% do really exciting stuff.

[smoky stump]

Hımm, interesting! Actually, I would like to choose this way for salary expectancy not because I like it a lot and also I do see what you mean.

[shadow moss]

it pays fine. If you want to do it, go for it. You just won't be doing anything like what you see in the movies/blog posts/defcon presentations

[smoky stump]

ahhahahah I guess I wont see black screen with green codes

[naive jolt]

hi guys im in the uk,ive previously done a yt python course and in the middle of harvards cs50p for python.

how long till i get a python job what are my next steps after i finish harvards cs50p

[shadow moss]

anywhere from 2 week to never, you apply for Python Jobs and see if you can get them

[naive jolt]

huhh

[naive jolt]

ik but am i ready just from that

what are my next steps to insurring im ready

[near ocean]

Getting a degree

[shadow moss]

I don't know, you tell me. You get hired by a company when they think you have experience to hire you.

[naive jolt]

u dont need a degree for all jobs but for sure gonna go for a degree

[shadow moss]

I will say, Python has primary language is not common so your next steps would be to learn one of big 3 languages, Javascript/Java or Kotlin/C#

[near ocean]

You asked what are your next steps, a degree is the fastest way into a job

[summer roost]

you do need a degree for some jobs, though, and having a degree makes it much easier for someone with no prior professional experience to get any job.

[naive jolt]

yeahh

whats a high paying demanding programming language to learn

[shadow moss]

Javascript == Java > C# but it can also be very country dependent. In Eastern Europe, they do a ton of PHP which isn't as common in other places. India is extremely heavy Java.

[near ocean]

The highest paying languages arent usually available to juniors so you shouldnt worry about it anyway

[naive jolt]

fair enough

[summer roost]

over the course of a CS degree, you'll likely learn many different languages, as well, and figure out which ones you like working in.

[naive jolt]

ill prolly start mastering javascript and python till uni thanks for the advice guys

i need to start doung some leetcode questions aswell haha

[summer roost]

easy leetcode questions might be a way to practice basic problem solving, but it probably doesn't benefit you to do anything beyond easy until after you've studied Data Structures and Algorithms

[spark lintel]

Hey! I need a talk with experienced developer... I've been into programming for about 2.5 years now and still i can't find my path.
I would appreciate if someone could talk with me on voicechat, share his history and maybe give me some tips on it.

[near ocean]

You could just ask here

[spark lintel]

Technically yes, but I think, i can get more out of a conversation rather than just chat

[near ocean]

People are usually less inclined to have a private conversation with a stranger, more so on voice comms
You're missing out on potential insights by limiting yourself to dms and voice

[spark lintel]

Well, you have a point here

But it's harder to ask question to many people, with one person i can focus on his history or his tips and just ask questions related to it.

[summer roost]

you could ask those questions here, and you'd get multiple answers and potentially spark a discussion.

[spark lintel]

Well my first question would be how a person started his journey with programming, and how did that person decided what to stick with

[summer roost]

for me, I started experimenting with programming in high school, worked a part time office job in high school that I was able to partially automate using VBA in Excel, and I decided I was pretty into this software dev thing.

[spark lintel]

For how long have you been programming?

[summer roost]

20 years ish, professionally for about 15

[spark lintel]

What have you been doing lately?

[summer roost]

I do backend library and tool development on Unix in C++ and Python, mostly

I'm one of the maintainers of https://github.com/bloomberg/memray

[spark lintel]

When you started programming, did you have trouble with choosing what to stick to?

[summer roost]

no - I didn't really "stick to" anything - I pursued things that I found challenging, and things that seemed to pay well, and developed a niche skill set over time based on a combination of my interests and what skills employers needed