career-advice

[wheat sparrow]

i dont

i giv them for free to microsoft, apple and discord

oh and i created auto mod but i cant leak the code (top secret)

[dull hill]

I'm a beginner programmer and i was wondering how can i make some money without using fivver, upwork, etc... becuase they are not available, in the future

[vapid jay]

Do you guys think i should just test out in college

[gilded valley]

if you can test out, then yes

[vapid jay]

What do you mean with not availible? are they noy availible in your country?

[vapid jay]

and what do I do with all the free time

[smoky quest]

Things related to:

• Architecture and system design
• Concurrency aspects
• Availability aspects
• Databases and datastores
• Message and event brokers
• Cloud architectures
• Craftmanship, which is a catch all for everything around it like testing, monitoring, deployment, etc.

[vapid jay]

@gilded valley do you mind saying what college you went to?

[gilded valley]

study for other units, work on personal projects, apply for internships, go to parties. Your time has value, there's not much point spending it in lectures about things you know

[gilded valley]

I went to a mediocre university in the UK

[vapid jay]

i can only do the test for calculus logic and programming

im just starting out so most of my courses are introductory type of stuff

[gilded valley]

If you feel shaky, then do the units, but really if you can test out then there's a good chance you won't learn too much. Especially for introduction-to-programming style units, these are very often very basic and don't end up feeding into other units well

[vapid jay]

ywah i just dont know what to do with college atm lol

im like going to tests and thats basically it

havent made friends or felt like i've learned anything meaningful

I've even thought of dropping out getting a bunch of certifications and trying to get a job with that

[gilded valley]

haven't learned anything meaningful is a fairly common experience, meeting new people can be difficult - my university ran some ice breaker meet-your-coursemate events that were quite useful, and I did end up making friends in the labs etc. The social aspect of going to college is important, but I'm not too sure on what to suggest because the specifics are presumably quite different for me in the UK vs in the US.

Presumably some of the US regulars can talk about how they met new people and made friends during college

[vapid jay]

But I've decided against it because my parents are paying for everything so I don't lose anything

[gilded valley]

you definitely don't want to drop out

[smoky quest]

Why not going to the classes and investing yourself into it?

The experience you get depends on what efforts you put in

[vapid jay]

It's not really that I'm struggling. I just haven't even attempted I guess

[vapid jay]

So, I shouldn't test out?

[vapid jay]

I would consider myself charismatic and outgoing just haven't really gotten involved with my classmates

[gilded valley]

then.. go do that? Presumably you can't test out of every single course, for the ones that you can't, show up to the lectures/labs and try to get talking with the other people on the course

[vapid jay]

Yeah just havent thought it's worth it

[tough charm]

wait why?

[gilded valley]

because CS A-level is very different to what gets taught in CS degrees, there's a lot of stuff that's just not the way it gets taught at universities, a specific example is entity-relationship-diagrams. They also very very often teach terrible programming habits because it's an IT teacher who doesn't care about programming in the slightest teaching it

[delicate bane]

have you considered trying out any extracurriculars or student orgs?

[vapid jay]

Yeah

[tough charm]

oh right, im gonna do maths, further maths, chem + something else. I was gonna do computer science but not so sure

[smoky quest]

I am not british, I have no idea what testing out means :p

[gilded valley]

Do it if you think you'll enjoy it, it's quite an easy grade if you like programming. With any 2 of the 3 you mentioned you'll get into plenty of good universities

[vapid jay]

I'm in the us

You can basically take a test that will be worth the entirety of the subject

[smoky quest]

I guess I need a bit more context.
The point of your degree is not just to pass some random tests but also get an education. How you acquire that education does not matter in the grand scheme of things but could have some impact.

What problem are you trying to solve here by testing out? What are you optimizing for?

[vapid jay]

I'm just asking if its worth it to test out if I already know what's being taught on the classes

[lapis wind]

If you spend any amount of time programming in your free time for a while, you should be able to get a A-A* pretty easily. In some ways it's a fairly good insurance subject.

[thick pawn]

francais venez mp

[smoky quest]

I wouldn't. I also doubt you already know what's being taught on the class, especially if you are beyond the intro classes.
But either way, there is some value to repeat it again and potentially learning some new nuggets.

[gilded valley]

The point of your degree is not just to pass some random tests but also get an education

If you can pass the test, then either you know the content well enough or it's a very poorly designed test

[vapid jay]

they are intro classes indeed

we're learning things like what is a class what is a variable etc

[smoky quest]

The test only will make you miss on, including but not limited to:

• Projects that build experience
• Getting to know people
• Nuggets of info/wisdom
• Specific points or questions

[gilded valley]

and if you already have understanding of the content, that time can be better spent elsewhere - unless secondary things like meeting classmates are very valuable

[delicate bane]

ok, there you go then

[smoky quest]

I wouldn't worry too much about it and enjoy the ride.
There are always things to learn more about or get a more formal view of the topics

[vapid jay]

Like what even

[gilded valley]

I agree that all of those have value, but it's the value of those vs the opportunity cost of spending the time sitting through the lectures. IME the units you can test out of are usually relatively basic things, not anything with major projects or group work. The two that cup mentioned I think are intro to programming, and calculus 1 - if you know them you know them

especially as intro to programming is often taught by vaguely disinterested lecturers who would rather be doing something they find more interesting

[smoky quest]

what do you mean?

[vapid jay]

Like what extra knowledge can you gain from intro to programming if you already know how to code

[smoky quest]

From my experience and others, people either regretted not attending or enjoyed attending nonetheless even if it was a bit slow.
I would also refrain from imparting some specific emotional state to hypothetical teachers

[smoky quest]

A more formal view of approaching problems for instance.
Also observing where other struggles and how different people approach things.

Plus the finer points of the language(s), depending what is being taught

[gilded valley]

I mean this is an actual emotional state I've heard adjunct professors talk about
the often is the questionable part - it definitely depends on the college/lecturer

[honest pivot]

I tested out of loads of courses and I think this was overall good for me. You will still be in school roughly the same amount of time, and you'll have plenty of opportunity to network.

[vapid jay]

We have a different class where we learn that

[smoky quest]

I can cite as many real examples of passionate teachers as well.
And not knowing Cup's teacher, I can't speak about that

[vapid jay]

intro to programming is almost exclusively coding

[smoky quest]

Then it's up to you

[vapid jay]

my teacher is very nice even he told me that i should stop coming to the lectures because i'm clearly well ahead

[gilded valley]

There's definitely a lot of passionate teachers. And if you have a passionate teacher, it's much more likely to be a worthwhile experience attending the lecture. People should definitely try to get a feel for the specific course in question, you're right

[honest pivot]

I think the answer is more clear-cut if the course is outside your main concentration

[spark zinc]

Just had my first technical interview ever and they asked recursion questions 😭

[near ocean]

what did they ask about and how did you do?

[inner wren]

Hey @vapid jay!

It looks like you tried to attach a Python file - please use a code-pasting service such as https://paste.pythondiscord.com

[spark zinc]

It was like “given an internet K find how many nodes in a binary tree are distance K away from a target node recursively”

I died lmao

[true harness]

isn't that basically just adding a counter to some basic graph traversal, though?

[covert plaza]

Hello everyone, how's everyone doing?

I'm thinking about having my own company, and have a total of 1 employees only (myself) on that company. What would be the best area to work alone? My guess is Web Apps, right?

[sacred shore]

I'm doing exactly the same, and I have the same idea. Web Apps simply because you could find ordinary people/companies that may need their own website either for personal use, commercial, etc.

[covert plaza]

Nice, good luck on your journey!

[visual pawn]

Hello I have a question and it would be greate if someone could help me out

I learned python 2 years ago and grinded code wars and leetcode then. I tried university (this year) but my procrastination with English essays and other non CS courses made my GPA low and I am on a leave of absence after my first year. I know everything that most python courses teach these days. I have been feeling low but I want a beginner simple job before I can go to college.

[smoky quest]

Why do you want a beginner simple job before you can go to college? These aren't typically related.

Also note that software jobs are about more than just writing code.

[visual pawn]

I am on a leave of absence (6 months)after my first year.So I came in with a good grant/scholarship. But I was a dumbass with my noncs classes and lost it. having a job to pay my tuiton after

I am also on this bootcamp thing for devops, I will send what we are learning after time

[smoky quest]

• While part time student software jobs do exist, they are very very very rare. A lot of them also come as a continuation from an internship.
• It's far more common for students to have a typical low skill student part time job like working in a coffee shop
• Doing a bootcamp while having a CS degree is a bad signal and a flag

[visual pawn]

i dont have a cs degree tho and I am prolly gonna fail out

[true harness]

why not focus on not failing instead of a bootcamp? the degree would be far more valuable than the bootcamp certificate

[smoky quest]

yeah, I was referring to when you graduate

[visual pawn]

I said i would do my best when i failed my first sem and secon sem was back to square one

i do not trust myself. I have always dreamt of being a good college student and getting phd.I am a failure to myself and my family. Sorry for my rant

[covert plaza]

Why is it a bad signal to do bootcamps while having a degree?

[summer roost]

Because people with a degree should have no problem getting a job from a company that hires junior developers. Getting an extra boot camp certificate instead going out and getting a job makes it seem like you struggled to find a company that would hire you despite your degree, which is a negative signal

[smoky quest]

Because a degree is worth incredibly more than a bootcamp. So having a bootcamp signals something is wrong with you or/and your degree and you are trying to make it up for it.
Bootcamps are for people who couldn't get a degree.

[covert plaza]

Humm, what if I do a Bootcamp and decide to go for the degree?

It is kind of what I'm going to do.

[smoky quest]

Only siths deal in absolute.
If you do the bootcamp first, it shows an upward progression which sends a different signal

If the time between the two is small, then regardless of how it looks, I would question its value.

[delicate bane]

if you do a bootcamp, why not try and go for an entry-level job. might as well give it a shot at that point

[fiery shell]

Hello, is it possible for you to help me view my CV if it is okay or not? If I post the photo of it? (without personal data ofc).

[gilded valley]

Yes, that's fine

[fiery shell]

I'll do! thanks photo coming soon

*it might be looking small, because I had to zoom out to catch everything.

[smoky quest]

might want to take 2/3 screenshots then. I can't read it

[gilded valley]

Mention python for the jobs where you used it - and what for. Right now it's not mentioned at all

Also, the 2021-10 looks like a bad for dates. The number after the - looks more like a year than a month

Also IMO ditch the beginner, intermediate, proficient thing. Just list skills and communicate the degree of competency in the interview

If you're not happy being asked about it, then don't list it

[honest pivot]

I think the usual convention is to list skills in order from most proficient to least proficient

[fiery shell]

I did not use the python within the jobs that much, it is listed at 2nd one. Mostly I learned at home and developed myself over a year.

[fiery shell]

They are in that matter, some headhunters tell to use show then in that matter tho.

Data changes swapped to yyyy.mm

[gilded valley]

Maybe host the projects on GitHub and include a link. Some concrete evidence of your skill seems like it would be useful

[buoyant seal]

i tend to withold from caring about leetcode due to a long list of more important things to take care first. Considering that my important list has everything planned for year/years ahead, probably it will never reach lc

[vapid jay]

Lc is completely obsolete for hiring except for very competitive algorithm roles. Normal software engineering roles have other priorities. It is better to know you tech stack well and be familiar with ds in general is good enough if not plenty.

[buoyant seal]

welp. exactly. only 1 out of 10 interviews requires lc, i can just not care about such interviews. More efficient strategy to learn what is really needed in the mean time.

[gilded valley]

FAANG tier companies, i.e companies that pay the most, all run leetcode interviews

[true harness]

it's different for different countries, though. in the US it is fairly common, even at not "FAANG tier"

[vapid jay]

wish it were like that in the UK

It's all leetcode baby - tbh, I prefer leetcode as a way of hiring. It's a simple and consistent way to filter out candidates who aren't dedicated enough.
I mean, I can't think of a better "exam" for jobs

[buoyant seal]

i visited dozens of interviews and gathered i think more efficient strategies

[vapid jay]

could you name some strategies?

I mean, you could always go the subjective route with a take-home project for maybe a day to build xyz with a specification, but that's pretty long to go through and pretty time consuming for the interviewee too

imho they have to test whether or not you're competent enough to familiarise yourself with the existing codebase and contribute to it within a reasonable time frame

[buoyant seal]

step 1:
lets not waste time with checking leetcoding. It should be held only as fully automated step. Task offers to run tests / checking final result. Candidate solves it and submits, fully automated round. leetcoding deserves only being automated
This step is purely to weed out non programmers technically.

step another one:
Writing specifically bad code, that breaks any possible rules of clean code. Just ask candidates to refactor it. You will see already a lot. Including making it with injections/testable/how they name stuff and structure it.
You will see literally all skills of a middle ranked software developer during it. How well he writes, refactors code and understands how to have it testable and etc.

step another one:
prepare list of self assement for all kind of categories / fields possibly to know related to this profession. Ask candidate to perform self assesment on a scale from 1 - 5
with a grade system like this

Grade-scale instruction:

* ? or 0: No experience
* 1: Junior (I have some experience or know some theory)
* 2: Strong Junior
* 3: Middle
* 4: Strong Middle (I can perform well, I know the best practices)
* 5: Senior (I know more than enough)

During conversation with candidate, you can ask questions, and finding at least in 2-3 fields exact his level. All other fields would be known to you from candidate based... on assumption, that candidate basically filled answers in proportional scale. You will quite full picture of all his skills, by checking just 2-3 sections exactly.

And...

Well, and it can be of course given as a task home task
It would be cool to give assignment to design a solution, or implementing some program as more practical task
possible example for design task:

## Context

We have a set of microservices: invoices, transactions, receipts, contracts, and credit cards. Each service works in a separate container and talks to a separate database.

## Task

Our users have to be able to search the data stored in all of these services.

You have to create an architecture of Search service that

- is handling all information from all these microservices
- the information in the search service has to be kept up to date (in case something is changing in other microservices, the search data has to follow changes)
- Some users have access restriction policies. For example, some users are not allowed to see some invoices or contracts — hence these **users should not see**  documents with restricted access in search  results

## How to prepare a solution

- Please create a diagram describing your architectural solution. Include all services, servers, databases, and other components you will be using.
- Please name all databases, software frameworks, and other pre-made solutions you will be using in this project. Explain your choice in a couple of paragraphs.
- If it feels appropriate, explain your architecture in a couple of sentences of text. You may be describing algorithms, OOPs patterns, or other things.
- No coding is required! You are working only on architecture

<aside>
ℹ️ After that please send your notes to blabla and schedule a meeting with Andrey with this link: ()  We expect you to complete case study within 5 business days.

At this meeting will be presented CTO and 2 backend engineers. You will be presenting a case study and also you will be asked general questions about Python, and backend programming.

</aside>

[buoyant seal]

i like the most strategy just to have a free reign asking candidate questions about all topics, while having him self assessing his skills.
it is easy to see final pictures after that / matching his answers with his self assesment. Asking to refactor some code is not really even needed often enough after that / or any other steps

[vapid jay]

could you give an example of what you could ask

[buoyant seal]

technically i have text recorded example of such interview, that i think i don't mind to share

[vapid jay]

okay, could you share then?

[misty seal]

Hi, my name is Nubel,

[buoyant seal]

yeah, formatting for easier readability

[vapid jay]

Thanks

[buoyant seal]

https://pastebin.com/Say9z45u full readability is a bit decreased since text saving did not persisted messages reply target messages 🙂 hopefully still understandable.
It started as a random conversation, and then dived into questionary to evaluate the person.
person claimed to be Full stack developer, DevOps/Backend/Frontend with self assesement

frontend: 7.5
backend: 6.5
devops: 6.5
being 0 very novice and 10 senior expert
haha

I then questioned and tried to show through questions to the person, there is much more to learn
replaced nickname of candidate to CANDIDATE

we asked some questions from DevOps, from backend (in both those two fields i feel myself more comfortable), and then even from less familiar field to me frontend

P.S. if i got it right, person is fully self taught / or some courses learned one, and practiced in some measure during several years at least

i tried to keep conversation on track of interview, but kind of other people made distractions from time to time. But i think we managed to finish it
it was not really serious interview xD but still actually interview

kind of the biggest difficulty of this interview was that candidate was having super ego, and thinking he is already middle-senior developer in DevOps/backend/frontend. While quite clearly his DevOps was kind of near zero, and during evaluation i tend to think backend is somewhere around of it as well
I tried to downscale his view without hurting feelings

his main experience was only frontend in the end, and we can say that only in this field it had non zero amount of skills i think.

[delicate bane]

big yikes

sounds like a big red flag

[buoyant seal]

i would not have hired him already because of over inflated ego. that's alone is already a wall preventing him from any growth, or having any easy/medium communications with him

development is a team work.

a person should always assume not knowing enough 🙂 and only during real interviews presenting himself like confident person to sell himself better

[delicate bane]

[vapid jay]

dude why does the text appear so incoherent and unserious

[buoyant seal]

well, it was a random organized event in discord chat, with not a real candidate.
And as i said, some coherence is lost due to not copied render of message targets of replies
and other people distracting flow of specific made chat thread, despite being asked not talking off topic

[vapid jay]

ahhhh that makes a lot of sense now - I thought it was a transcribed version of an actual voice/face to face chat

[wary stirrup]

Any suggestions on entry level jobs in CS, preferably more coding orientated. I have a bachelors but not in CS. I’m not looking for a lot of money, mainly just experience

[vapid jay]

im in uk. only seen leetcode for big companies, where are you applying to?

[signal hemlock]

sorry for going off-topic, but i love how it looks, can you share the template?

[vapid jay]

only big companies pay decent 😦

[vapid jay]

you mean 60+ right?

[true harness]

if you have coding skills, why not shoot for an entry level software developer job?

[wary stirrup]

I feel like I’m not experienced enough, at least with the other aspects of the job

[true harness]

do you meet most requirements of job postings? if no, learn them. if yes, apply

[wary stirrup]

I’ll look it to it. Thanks 🙏

[near ocean]

60+ what, and also what do you mean by big companies, 2/2 of my positions have had some sort of leetcode type question

[vapid jay]

60k plus or 40k for junior roles

Hope you didnt do lc for peanuts

[near ocean]

i dont see leetcode as being something incredibly hard or time consuming
First job was peanuts, second one isnt

Its leetcode, not millenium problems

To give more context, they gave me 2x easy and 2x medium leetcode puzzles
Its been 3 weeks since i started and I have 4 PRs open which are all 3-5line CSS changes

If 4 puzzles is all it takes to have a chill comfy desk job for 40k+ then sign me the fuck up

[vapid jay]

Theyre often too hard and expect extra effort. Not worth it when you can get a normal job

[summer roost]

They're asked by the vast majority of companies, in my experience

[near ocean]

I think people exaggerate the difficulty of leetcode questions

[graceful mason]

I wouldn't say a couple of easy->medium codility questions is too hard

[vapid jay]

Are you in uk as well?

[graceful mason]

There's also a pretty big difference between pre-interview questions (competitive position thinning down applicants) and mid-interview codility questions (mostly assessing non-coding qualities)

[summer roost]

No, US, though I have quite a few friends and coworkers in the UK, so it's the country whose practices I'm second most familiar with.

[vapid jay]

Ive had 2/10 interviews being somewhat leetcode related

[young isle]

Hello

[vapid jay]

Normal swes havent touched those stuff in their lives. Its only to thin our for very competitive roles

[graceful mason]

Do you think that's unfair though? If you want to apply to competitive roles

[vapid jay]

Id say since it isnt related to the job its absurd and demands hours of time investing in it. I dont care about very competitive roles. Theres already high demand for devs. I can go and get a normal tier job.

[near ocean]

Why does it demand hours of time investing in it?

[vapid jay]

To practice algorithm questions you wont ever see in the job

[summer roost]

I think any developer who can't write a traversal for a binary tree has fundamental shortcomings as a developer. I think it is a good thing for a company to discover that before hiring them.

[vapid jay]

If a company needs you to traverse a binary tree theyre gonna overwork you and have high expectations anyway

[summer roost]

lol, wut

[graceful mason]

In my experience questions in the UK were mostly things like palindromes/combinations/permutations etc nothing to do with trees

[vapid jay]

Its not a good practice to use those in hiring

[near ocean]

Thats not true at all

[vapid jay]

As ive said before you guys are exceptions who is fine with doing these stuff but normal devs dont have time or resources to play these weird hiring games. Id rather learn my stack well

[graceful mason]

At the end of the day you probably only need to go through this a few times for an entry-level role, they aren't going to throw questions at you once you have experience... It's your choice whether you want to try starting your career with a good quality job

[summer roost]

I agree that there are alternatives to data structures and algorithms questions in an interview. Take home tests are the most popular alternative to DS&A questions that I've seen. But, those tend to be much more time consuming for candidates than algorithms questions are, and so they select for candidates who have copious amounts of free time.

someone who has a job, a marriage, and kids can't devote 10 hours to a take home assignment anywhere near as easily as someone who has none of those.

[vapid jay]

Same thing for leetcode.

No one has the time or the responsibility of going onto leetcode.com to practice totally useless questions

[summer roost]

leetcode style questions shouldn't take any extra effort from you. They should, by and large, be things you already learned how to do.

that's not to say that practicing isn't good, but I wouldn't expect to need to spend much time on it

[graceful mason]

If you don't want to practice leetcode have you considered applying to these places and just having a go at them without practicing? Chances are they aren't going to ask you the hard questions you're thinking of anyway

[vapid jay]

At uni we dont put emphasis on algo and ds stuff. Just introductory. Theyre not relevant to real world work. So no i do not know how to solve those like many other devs who have no idea what those questions are

[summer roost]

I know many people who went to uni in the UK. I know graph traversal is covered, and I know dynamic programming is covered. Knowing graph traversal and DP covers most most medium leetcode questions

[vapid jay]

We learn basics we dont learn how to apply them in a time constricted manner

[summer roost]

I think there's a huge difference between algorithms questions and the puzzle type of questions that Google popularized in the 90s and 00s. Those legitimately had little predictive power, and were an arbitrary filter. Algorithms questions have pretty strong predictive power, though, and can easily show you which candidates don't have a grasp on recursion, for instance

[vapid jay]

You can ask what a recursion is to know if they know it or not.

[summer roost]

yes, you can - but their answer won't tell you if they're able to successfully apply it.

[graceful mason]

Most people coming out of uni know the definitions of things, they want people that can actually write some degree of code...

[summer roost]

lots of people have trouble formulating a base case, and will design recursive algorithms that never terminate.

[vapid jay]

Duh youre employing a junior. Not a senior

[summer roost]

yes, juniors are expected to know how to write code.

[vapid jay]

If you pay mid level then you get mid level code.

[graceful mason]

Knowing how to write a basic recursive function is in no way mid-level

[vapid jay]

If its basic you dont need to ask it in a lc question

[summer roost]

can you explain what you mean by that?

[graceful mason]

Then how else do you filter out the people who know principles but now how to write code from your 200 applicants?

[vapid jay]

It doesnt make it sensible to use lc. You admit it has nothing to do with any useful skill but about thinning candidates

[summer roost]

no one in this conversation has "admitted" that. Everyone but you has said that's not true.

[vapid jay]

No wonder faangs turnover rate is 1.1 years

[graceful mason]

Thinning out candidates by excluding people that don't have basic useful skills....

[summer roost]

writing a recursive algorithm is a basic skill that any junior developer ought to have, and filtering out weak developers who cannot actually write code is what the algorithms questions are for.

[vapid jay]

Then why are degrees good for?

Lets all sit down and do lc all day

[summer roost]

You have admitted that some people finish the degree with an understanding of the terms but not how to implement them in practice.

[graceful mason]

Again you don't need to practice questions to answer them

[summer roost]

Yeah, my position was that anyone who finished a degree program should be able to do leetcode style questions without practicing.

[vapid jay]

A majority cant.

[graceful mason]

Then why should they hire you?

[summer roost]

I don't think that's true - but if it was, then I'd say that majority should learn to code before getting hired for a coding role...

[vapid jay]

If it is that important it would be taught in unis

[graceful mason]

It is

[summer roost]

it is.

[near ocean]

Someone didnt pay attention in their DSA class...

[summer roost]

A leetcode style question that has basically become a meme is to invert a binary tree - that is, for every node in the tree, swap its left and right children. That's, objectively, a very simple thing to do. Someone who can't do that shouldn't have gotten a degree.

[graceful mason]

(and also that question usually isn't asked because it's a meme and companies understand it's pointless)

[summer roost]

likewise for checking if a given string is a palindrome - objectively quite simple, and anyone with a degree should be able to do that without trouble

[vapid jay]

You have to practice for that. No one has the time to do si

[summer roost]

why do you have to practice for that?

[near ocean]

What is keeping you so busy that you cant study for the thing you want to work as

[vapid jay]

You guys are from a very niche sphere so it seems acceptable to you

[vapid jay]

It bs. I have standards. Im not gonna do monkey dancing

[graceful mason]

You don't.... I had an interview literally a month ago where they asked that question (given a list of strings, say the length of the longest palindrome it contains) and I've never practiced leetcode in my life

[vapid jay]

Are you neurodivergent?

[graceful mason]

Ahaha

[summer roost]

the "monkey dancing" you're describing is just demonstrating that you're able to turn requirements into code. If you're not willing to demonstrate that, then most companies won't hire you. I'm confused why any companies would hire you.

[vapid jay]

I already secured a job for when i graduate they didnt ask leetcode.

[graceful mason]

Probably yeah but if you think you need to be a savant or something to answer that question you're gonna have problems doing actual work

[near ocean]

Why are we having this convo if you already have a job then

[summer roost]

Did you work for them as an intern?

[vapid jay]

Nope. Was going to tho why

[summer roost]

Did they ask you to write any code as part of the interview process? If so, what?

[vapid jay]

They didnt. We did code review

[summer roost]

wow. I'm flabbergasted - that seems like an absolutely terrible way to hire developers.

[vapid jay]

I hate elitism within this community

[summer roost]

There's no "elitism" happening here. You're making something out to be much more difficult than it is.

[vapid jay]

You are all probably neurodivergent otherwise there is no way someone normal is going to do leetcode left and right without practicing for hours. Go read the forums and see what neurotypical people experience

[summer roost]

hiring developers without seeing code they wrote is like hiring someone to write a book for you without reading anything they wrote. Or hiring someone as an architect without seeing a building they designed. It's insanity.

[graceful mason]

You dont even know what a palindrome is, is there any group you don't think is elitist?

[summer roost]

you don't need to know what a palindrome is, for what it's worth. If you don't, the interviewer will explain that to you.

it's not a vocabulary test, it's a coding test.

[true harness]

you don't need to practice to do most easy leetcodes, though. I don't see where this sentiment is coming from. it's really just basic knowledge. even if you didn't go in depth in you dsa course you should know those topics

[vapid jay]

We dont know those topics. We learn from building stuff. Not theory

[summer roost]

a palindrome is a string that's the same when read in either direction. You check if a string is a palindrome by reading it one character at a time, working your way towards the middle from the ends. If you hit two characters that are not the same, it's not a palindrome. If you hit the middle without finding any pair of differing characters, it is.

[true harness]

you can't really build stuff without knowing these basics. most just involve using basic data types, language constructs

[vapid jay]

As i said i suspect this is due to those developers being neurodivergent.

[true harness]

do you understand what you're accusing people of lol

[graceful mason]

Only autistic chemists know what carbon is

[summer roost]

yes, you said that, but that makes absolutely no sense, so we're doing you a kindness by ignoring the comment 😄

[vapid jay]

So you are normal?

[summer roost]

as far as I know!

[peak halo]

@vapid jay please stop with this neurodivergent vs neurotypical rhetoric.

[vapid jay]

People who are obsessed with programming and know all these stuff are mostly like that. It is just an observation

[summer roost]

it's interesting that you're diagnosing me based on skills I have that you don't, lol

[true harness]

I don't really see how that's relevant. you need basic knowledge to do everything. is your point that data structures are not useful?

[near ocean]

You said you got a job without leetcode, so why the argument? If people want to do it for more competitive positions its up to them, not you

[summer roost]

This conversation seems very weird to me. If you don't have the skills to perform, say, an in-order tree traversal, you failed to learn a major component of your degree, and yes, you should go back and study, since that is a skill developers need to have.

[vapid jay]

I am doing software engineering not cs.

[peak halo]

even if you have empirical evidence to back that up, we don't want to hear it. The fact that you're talking about neurodivergent people in a demeaning way is not in line with our #code-of-conduct.

[graceful mason]

😆

[summer roost]

I know fewer people who completed SE programs as opposed to CS programs, but the ones I do know definitely had exposure to DS&A, and did graduate with the ability to write both recursive and iterative algorithms.

[honest pivot]

Having spent my summer doing loads of online assessments and live coding interviews using Leetcode style problems, I think they do actually measure something quite useful about someone's ability to think algorithmically. It's possible for software development jobs to require a different set of skills, but for ones that require algorithmic thinking, I think LC measures something meaningful.

[vapid jay]

It makes sense for the ones that require algorithmic skills not webdevs for exampel

And yes you have to do loads to memorize problem solving methdos

[graceful mason]

Most unis in the UK have very similar CS/SE courses, to the point that with a certain choice of optional modules you can turn the CS degree into the SE degree

[honest pivot]

You don't have to "memorize", but it is certainly helpful to practice a lot.

[vapid jay]

We did have one that didnt have any emphasis on those types of questions. It was just theory

[true harness]

a theory course didn't ask programming problems?

[graceful mason]

Literally no uni course is just theory... You have 1x lab + lecture a week right?

[vapid jay]

No we dont have lab for it

[graceful mason]

I think you might have been ripped off

[vapid jay]

This is just very pretentious everyone online agrees with me. Its just in this server ive seen where people worship leetcode

[summer roost]

"everyone online agrees with me", they say online to many people who disagree with them

[graceful mason]

Everyone in whatever echo chamber you're living in

[true harness]

no one worships leetcode. you're claiming that the skills tested are not useful, which we disagree with

[vapid jay]

It looks like only in discord your opinion is supported which means youre the one living in this echo chamber

[peak halo]

I don't think anyone here is worshipping leetcode. We're saying that basic leetcode questions have predictive power for someone's programming ability.

[vapid jay]

I can write perfectly fine code without doing any lc

[graceful mason]

I literally have gone through these experiences to get an internship and a job, the fact that my beliefs from those experiences line up with other people isn't a coincidence

[summer roost]

then you should have no trouble answering an algorithms question, so I don't see why you dislike them.

[vapid jay]

That is not the case

Those algo questions require a different set of skill you need to study for

[true harness]

could you give a concrete example, so we're not all talking in abstract?

[vapid jay]

Check out neetcode or blind 75 and why people study that

You are all oblivious to the struggles of a normal developer who would want a faang job for example. Youre acting like this is taught in school

[summer roost]

right, because it is.

[true harness]

my discrete math class yesterday talked about this stuff

[vapid jay]

In usa you pay 10x what i pay so they better teach you that

[summer roost]

I've never used leetcode in my life, but I've also never struggled to solve algorithms problems in interviews, because those problems use skills that I developed in uni.

[summer roost]

more like 2x to 4x

though "there's a lot of income inequality in the US" is a bug, not a feature.

[graceful mason]

Struggles of a normal developer might not include cost of living

[vapid jay]

Us jobs pay really well like 70k starting

[true harness]

that's on the very low end

[graceful mason]

70k dollars?

[vapid jay]

Sure yes if not more

If i was in usa id do some leetcode for that amount of money but im not gonna monkey dance for peanuts

[summer roost]

maybe, maybe not. A junior dev's salary should be well above cost of living in most areas, but they've likely graduated with considerable student loan debt. But we're wandering off the original topic.

[graceful mason]

In a lot of places £40k is about equivalent to $100k (IIRC don't crucify me Americans), just to put $70k in perspective for you

[summer roost]

that sounds about right to me.

[vapid jay]

If there is a lot of cost when it comes to livinf yes

[summer roost]

with the exchange rate alone, £40k is ~$50k USD.

[vapid jay]

Its literally half. Theyre not paying for the effort you put in

[summer roost]

sure. Like I said, "drastic income inequality" is probably not a thing you ought to wish for.

and besides, I do know people in the UK making >£100k, at non-FAANG companies.

[honest pivot]

Such jobs are still exceedingly rare, though

[summer roost]

One of my university friends moved to the UK and is making over £200k these days

[summer roost]

I don't know about "exceedingly". They're rare, but not one in a million.

[honest pivot]

No, I think around £150k puts you in the top 1% in the UK

[vapid jay]

That more money than i will ever spend in a year. Why would i bust my ass leetcoding if my aspirations are not top companies?

[near ocean]

Then dont?

[honest pivot]

If you don't enjoy the type of puzzle solving that's involved in LC problems, you probably wouldn't enjoy the type of job that mainly uses that skill.

[near ocean]

Is there anyone forcing you to do leetcode? Why so pressed about it

[summer roost]

That sounds believable to me, yeah.

[honest pivot]

Most of those jobs are in London, however

[summer roost]

also true. Though London's cost of living is quite high compared to most parts of the UK, as I understand

[lapis wind]

I believe generally a decent tech company with a senior in the UK will get you between 100k - 150k a year. Depends on the company though so many are your standard mildly shitty c# jobs which pay alot less than that even for senior

I think you do have a better chance of earning more though in the UK if you go with a remote based company than purely British based company in terms of average pay.

[lapis wind]

£700 a month for 1 room + Bills 😉

[summer roost]

That makes sense to me, since those companies need to worry more about equity between similarly skilled developers in the company

[lapis wind]

Nah, it's not that extreme lmao

£700 a week is more like Newer build 2-3 bed flat + living room sorta thing

[near ocean]

I would never go back to renting a room in a house share, just get a partner and youre set lmao

[lapis wind]

"Just get a partner" 🤣

[summer roost]

Rent alone, excluding utilities, is around $1700 per month in most major US cities

[lapis wind]

In what area?? Central?

I've never seen any single rooms going for that much

[graceful mason]

bro what part of London are you in, that's like outer London

[lapis wind]

Im Zone 2 North west

[near ocean]

Im doing just under £400/week in zone2, rent really is a problem if youre not getting paid fairly

[honest pivot]

I think he means 1 room in a share

[lapis wind]

Also yeah that was my point xD

[delicate bane]

omg not the C# jobs...all of the product devs at our company 🕯️

at least the platform devs get to use JS + python

[lapis wind]

Idk what it's like outside the UK but yeah seems like a huge proportion of UK infa is built up on shitty Dot NET framework

[delicate bane]

we're based in the states but seems more common than i previously thought

[lapis wind]

The C# Framework + some full CMS is a popular combo

[delicate bane]

sounds like if you learn C# you might get gobbled up by recruiters

[lapis wind]

Sad but very true.

Top Tip for people looking to get into the industry: Learn C# .NET framework, IIS ( 🤢 ) and MSSQL and you're basically set, might not be everyone's cup of tea though

[smoky quest]

it's highly dependent on the location though

[leaden knot]

Copious amounts of Microsoft worship can't be that healthy

[lapis wind]

I should mark that with In the UK:

[delicate bane]

omg literally half of our tech stack

[near ocean]

Is it anyone's cup of tea?

[lapis wind]

I know some people have just worked with it for so long they enjoy it just because they know it back to front and all it's nonsense.

[proud badger]

If I just want an intro Python job (field doesn’t matter) what would be an efficient route to be hireable? Bad wage is fine. I’m in NA. I have a business degree.

[graceful mason]

sounds like stockholm syndrome

[lapis wind]

Almost certainly, however hard to avoid in the UK where it's just what everything is built on

[uncut mist]

Are you guys between a discussion?

[delicate bane]

i think you just described one of my coworkers perfectly

[lapis wind]

Probably web-related. So something like Full stack (Javascript, HTML, CSS, Python backend like Flask, Django, FastAPI are the big ones) probably want a frontend framework as well like React

[uncut mist]

Is there any 100% remote jobs for undergrads? I want to save up for my masters.

[smoky quest]

There are, but there are very few part time (remote) cs jobs for students. Quite a few of them are also continuation from internships

[uncut mist]

Mainly where?

[smoky quest]

anywhere

[graceful mason]

key point there is that you will struggle to get any "python" job by only knowing python

[uncut mist]

Are they very few?

[smoky quest]

there are very few part time (remote) cs jobs for students

[uncut mist]

Oh that's rough

[lapis wind]

i mean it's fairly realistic

It's hard to balance Meetings, sprints, etc... around student timetables

[smoky quest]

yeah. The students aren't knowledgeable yet, are only there part time, aren't that reliable, and need some heavy training.
So it's almost like charity work or very low skill work

[proud badger]

Kinda wish I started with js

[uncut mist]

Yeah I understand, I will have to find some similar ways of income

[lapis wind]

Doesn't really take much time to pick up

[spare radish]

what more should be needed then?

[delicate bane]

yeah some interns can be a net negative on a team

[proud badger]

I feel like python isn’t as satisfying. With JS you can build something interactive right away. Python is much more hidden. My friend is all like “web development is dying, screw JS, all my friends say Python is what’s worth learning” idk I think he might just be talking a lot. He’s talking about machine learning but I doubt they’re hiring anyone without a degree into those positions without a lot of experience first

[lapis wind]

Pretty sure most intern projects get separated out into the "We can burn it if we need to" sections of code on projects after one too many intern bits of code becoming a nightmare

[near ocean]

Your starting lang doesnt matter that much at all, I started out with java and I dont use it at all now

[proud badger]

That’s good to know. I’ll try to first do intro web dev. I know it pays pretty well if I can get a green card here lol

[graceful mason]

You're thinking in languages when you should be thinking in careers

[proud badger]

I’m thinking in rent rn ngl

[graceful mason]

well a language doesn't pay you, find whatever entry-level jobs there are in your area and learn the skills you need for them

[smoky quest]

Then find another job to pay your bills until you are ready for a dev job.

[proud badger]

I am working full time

[smoky quest]

then why are you thinking about bills?

[proud badger]

But I want to shorten the journey into cs. So whatever takes least amount of time is best

[delicate bane]

my summer internship was a "PoC project"; i got to use the cloud but only lambda since they were afraid of the intern burning through all the cloud money (which is fair); i mean i still had the access to turn on instances - i was just trusted to not mess around with anything else

[graceful mason]

the journey into what area of CS though

nobody is going to hire an embedded developer if your only experience is in web dev

[proud badger]

Whatever is the shortest journey to get an entry level job. I think that the idea about browsing postings and seeing what seems like low hanging fruit is a good one tho

[lapis wind]

yeah something along those lines sounds about right. Or something like pro-bono work where the company isn't being paid for it anyway

[delicate bane]

i legit almost turned off an instance that i thought i had turned on; good thing i triple-checked the timestamps + logs bc like it was def used by someone else

tldr; dont trust interns

[proud badger]

That’s a weird question. A lot of people living paycheck to paycheck and looking for good ways to escape that.

[lapis wind]

I would really recommend not strictly going for what ever the first low hanging fruit is.

For your first job you'll really need to stay there for a least 1 or 2 years before being able to realistically move on without being back at square one. So if you hate every day of working there, you're gonna burn out.

[smoky quest]

It's a pragmatic question.
Going into CS will take you months. So if you worry about living paycheck to paycheck, that's going to put you in a bad situation with unrealistic expectations

[vapid jay]

I doubt anyone really likes their job

[graceful mason]

during my internship i did a small stint with the team that managed the GCS pipeline for our logs.... I checked the billing and saw that they had 1 year storage on all the data, costing over £30,000 a month for the largest table (with ~1000 tables) and most of the data wasn't used by anyone
when setting up a new site people literally just put a number in for what they thought the data storage would cost and it would get approved

[vapid jay]

Youre doing programming after all. Youd only do it if youre paid. Not daily

[smoky quest]

Lots of folks in CS do like their jobs as well.

[lapis wind]

I feel like this is a gas light. Because I know alot of people enjoy what they're doing and do programming in their free time so

[vapid jay]

Id never do programming on my free time tbh if i wasnt a student now

[lapis wind]

Not everyone will enjoy programming in their free time, but you should at least aim to do something you enjoy lol

[proud badger]

Well I guess the other side of the story is I’m not gonna survive putting all my energy into CS while working full time to make rent if it takes years. So I can’t choose something that will take ages to be prepared for. I figure I can learn while I work better at a programming job than a random job

So what are my choices if I want to be able to possibly work within a few months? I’ve already been at it for a bit now

[vapid jay]

I enjoy reading and philosophy those are good enough for me

[delicate bane]

those storage costs, especially data lakes are wild (write once, read never; WORN). my friend is a senior devops engineer and suggested deleting this piece of storage that no one EVER uses; wouldve saved the company $80000/yr too but companies like to hoard so they said no

[lapis wind]

My job happens to be based around that sort of issue entertainingly. Particularly around logging where you have a shit ton of data but barely ever need it, but still need it in case.

[lapis wind]

Really depends on your country, but if you want to quickly just do some programming with a low barrier to entry, just learn ReactJS and that's probably enough.

[delicate bane]

thats funny. theres ways to optimize it too ($$$) especially if your read access is very infrequent or latency is not relevant

[fair flower]

Heyy Guys

[lapis wind]

Literally, I think generally we aim around the $100 / TB / month sort of pricing

[smoky quest]

I would refrain from generalizing your situation though.
There are people who hate their job, people who hate their job but love CS and do it on their own time, people who love their job but don't program on their free time and people who love their job and do it on their own time.

The advantage of CS is it's a lot more interesting than moving boxes around and can be about solving meaningful problems. So there are tons of opportunities for enjoying it, or at least more opportunities than some other lines of work

[graceful mason]

after i asked about it they changed the storage duration from 1-6 months for each table depending on how much we needed it and they saved bank
all it taught me was I don't need to worry about running expensive queries or expensing nice work boots because they genuinely are too rich to care

[fair flower]

My tech stack is AWS, Django , Flask , Rest API'S whats yours?

[delicate bane]

seriously tho

[near ocean]

Why are you in a programming discord server, on your free time?

[vapid jay]

Im currently learning new technologies for future job prospects. I am thinking of webdev atm

[fair flower]

Can any one share on what tech stack they are currently working on?

[lapis wind]

Rust :)

[fair flower]

Cool

[vapid jay]

Plus im a student. Once i start work ill stick to reddit only. We get more professionals there

[lapis wind]

Oh boy, what a statement

[near ocean]

Lmao i cant believe im reading this chat

[vapid jay]

Hi

[fair flower]

Hi

[vapid jay]

How are you

[lapis wind]

I have never heard anyone go "ah yes reddit, the place where the professionals go" so much as "Reddit, the place where people like to think they know more than they do"

[fair flower]

I'm good where you from?

[vapid jay]

Usa

[vapid jay]

People here do not fit my profile of doing it only professionally. I like the few seniors who drop in the chat here so staying for them

[fair flower]

True😂😂

[smoky quest]

Hi!
For general chitchat, an off topic channel would be more approriate

[near ocean]

Can i say they should go back to reddit now or is it rude

[buoyant seal]

living alone is cheaper, than need to spend time and money on partner xD

[vapid jay]

r/cscareerquestions is pretty good

[smoky quest]

That would be rude, and not something to care about anyway

[near ocean]

The biggest expense is rent and it halves it if you live with a friend or better yet a partner

[vapid jay]

You see who is a senior and listen to them not newbies

[near ocean]

Every person here with a colour is a senior at their job and you've been arguing with them all night

[graceful mason]

do you think people should listen to your experiences or?

[fair flower]

What are the best platform to apply for remote job?

[vapid jay]

They probably shouldnt because i dont have experience working yet

[lapis wind]

Honestly about the same as a non-remote job, your general popular job boards. Personally I prefer linkedin for that.

[smoky quest]

linkedin and indeed are very popular

[vapid jay]

Geeklygod is a senior?

[fair flower]

Whcih interest you most web , ML or data science?

[vapid jay]

The coloured roles are helpers and mods not all are seniors

[near ocean]

@summer roost could you give a summary of your experience as a software developer?

[lapis wind]

Godly has just be randomly brought into this conversation lol

[vapid jay]

We were talking with him prior and he referenced him as a senior

[fair flower]

He sleep

[near ocean]

They were arguing earlier about the effectiveness of leetcode

[lapis wind]

I would like to point out though, what do you even class as senior?

Like, compared to your current skills (no offence, you just haven't got any experience yet) everyone who has even some experience is more senior than you?

[vapid jay]

10+

[fair flower]

Who thinks leetcode beat the shit out of you?

[near ocean]

Thats silly but i still think godly qualifies iirc

You could spend 10+ years writing hello worlds, its not going to mean anything

[vapid jay]

You guys are very motivated and have the illusion of this work being the best you can get out of life due to your youth.

[smoky quest]

yes, they are quite senior

[fair flower]

Lol your experience does not define your seniority level

[near ocean]

Im literally older than you

[vapid jay]

You are still young

[near ocean]

You've been very condescending throughout any and all interactions you've had here

[smoky quest]

don't feed the troll :p

[near ocean]

Why do we even allow obvious trolls here

[fair flower]

You guys must have experience of more than 5 years

[vapid jay]

Youre the obvious troll to me

When everyone ive met has been pointing out the uselessness of leetcode youre defending it

[lapis wind]

Ohhh you're the "everyone on the internet agrees with me" guy?

[near ocean]

Yea lmao

[smoky quest]

let's keep it civil and not indulge in ad hominem attacks

[vapid jay]

Literallt cf8 did it

[smoky quest]

two wrongs don't make one right.

[leaden knot]

What are the hot takes on leet code?

Grinding leet code for a job is normal. Thinking that a job is leet coding is not.

[lapis wind]

People are fairly divided about how useful leetcode is for things like job interviews.

[vapid jay]

Its pointless. Bunch of seniors say they cant do it and it has nothing to do with what they do at their job regularly

[smoky quest]

There is a question of how it's used for interview, but also the fact there haven't been clearly better options available either

[lapis wind]

Tbf I agree leetcode is pretty pointless outside of using it to be a fairly hard and quick way to filter out people who can't actually code.

[near ocean]

The person that is against leetcode has said that they already have a job which they got without leetcode, but somehow theyre still here to insist that leetcode bad

[leaden knot]

Would reading CLRS be considered useful to the people who think leetcode isn't useful?

[vapid jay]

Well what if i want to switch jobs

[near ocean]

Get another one the same way you got the first one?

[vapid jay]

Do i need to prepare for something useless out of my own free time?

[smoky quest]

If that was really that useless, people wouldn't be using it

[vapid jay]

So you think you solve leetcode type problems with time restrictions everyday on the job?

[left socket]

You often get to bypass some initial filters if you apply on a recommendation.

[smoky quest]

This is not what leetcode is testing though.
That said, if you are that slow in your job, then that would underline a performance problem

[lapis wind]

Tbf I don't think that's strictly able to be a blanket statement like that.

• There tends to be two sort of parts, the people who do it competitively and it's just what they enjoy doing.
• There's those who use it as a quick filter for candidates
• And then there's those who use it to check for specific knowledge.

All of which are pretty fiar.

[lapis wind]

Most job i've seen using the small code challenges tools like Leetcode, Hackerrank and stuff like that tend to have a time limit to the point where it's a insignificant factor lol

[vapid jay]

Its used to filter out candidates who dont have time or the effort to put in hours practicing leetcode

[smoky quest]

There used to be also the weird trick questions where you don't demonstrate anything other than knowing the trick or not for that specific question. Which is an anti-pattern

[near ocean]

What is the issue though, you can get a job without leetcode, literally what is the point of arguing against it

[smoky quest]

I frequently ask people to write a factorial as a filter for people. Way too many people fail, yet it's not something that requires hours of dedicated practice

[lapis wind]

They're never that hard. I don't touch leetcode or hackerrank or similar outside of interviews. And they've never been beyond anything which you can sensibly work out how to do.

[vapid jay]

There are many places hire without it. I just dont like it that people still use it

[near ocean]

What other people do isnt up to you

[leaden knot]

do you require it to be fast or slow? writing it naively is easy, knowing how to make it faster through the language features isn't

[smoky quest]

As a practitioner, I would consider it a red flag is the company is not testing skills in some ways

[smoky quest]

I start with any way. We can do down to other approaches, including using tail recursion if the candidate can handle it and have time

[vapid jay]

Why do many people fail this if they have degrees?

[smoky quest]

Because they were lazy bastards who just went through the motion without really understanding what they are doing

[leaden knot]

well what happens when the candidate starts talking about the Gamma function instead

[lapis wind]

I've had it been used once where it wasn't so much about if it was naive or fast, but more so around like how well you understood the task, how well you ask for any guidance, thinking, and asking people about stuff like time complexity.

[vapid jay]

Werent you complaining about ad hominem and now youre calling lazy bastards for not doing something they dont normally do on the job

[smoky quest]

As long as they end up with something that demonstrate they can write code, we can branch out anywhere

[leaden knot]

ah yeah, the people dimension is probably quite important, considering hiring a person isn't the same as contracting someone to complete a task

[near ocean]

"they" is abstract, and not a party of this discussion, its not an attack on a person

[smoky quest]

Because ad hominem is targeting specific people. I was not targeting you specifically

[digital fjord]

these interviews aren't just about "can you finish the problem", they are also about how they approach the problem and what is it they do actually produce, even if it isn't actually a working solution.

[vapid jay]

Then i would say certain things about people who like leetcode here if you would allow

[lapis wind]

That really depends on the job, but that particular task is a good demonstration of something which you can absolutely just... Ask what it entails, and still get a working implementation out of it.

[honest pivot]

Also seeing how you talk about the problem. When I've interviewed people, I'm definitely thinking a lot about how well that person communicates.

[smoky quest]

That's a non sequitur.

As someone hiring people, the bar to get into an interview is to be able to write a minimum amount of code, as demonstrated by being able to write a factorial function, which is considered pretty basic and easy.
If a candidate cannot do that, then my filter has worked and saved time

[graceful mason]

exact thing happened in my last interview - I made something that logically made sense and it was spitting out a weird answer in one case, and both me and the interviewer couldn't see what was wrong, but he said there's no point try to fix it because he could see where I was going with it and instead asked how I'd go about debugging

[near ocean]

Is this not just plain envy? You want what leetcode jobs offer which is usually higher pay, but you dont want to put in the effort for leetcode and are angry at people who do

[vapid jay]

I dont want a tough leetcode job. Im happy with normal jobs

[near ocean]

Why are you here arguing then? Stick to your normal job

[lapis wind]

I mean sure... But what do you class as normal aha.

[vapid jay]

I just dont like pretentious people whos whole personality is being a "programmer" gatekeep this community

[near ocean]

You literally started this topic

[graceful mason]

apparently your whole personality is being a "normal" programmer though

[vapid jay]

Places that pay average and dont ask algo ds questions

[smoky quest]

That's not even about gatekeeping anyone. No one said you aren't a programmer here

[lapis wind]

In my area, we use a lot of data structures, a lot of which leet code covers, so at what point does that change

If you just wanna do web dev, then sure, as long as you can write a function and some loops, you basically know react js

[near ocean]

Just stay at your average pay job and let the rest of us who dont mind a couple leetcode puzzles get paid the big bucks, whats the problem

[honest pivot]

It is not pretentious to want to make sure people are capable of doing a tough job before hiring them.

[lapis wind]

nOw WRiTe mE a LrU cAcHe

[vapid jay]

Its not related to the job. Something i cant wrap my head around

[honest pivot]

I literally did write an LRU cache multiple times in interviews over the last few months. It's very easy.

And I've literally had to write an LRU cache in my actual job as well.

[lapis wind]

I think if you're in general Writing Python, JS or C# you probably dont need to worry about writing a LRU cache, although it's definitely good to know how they work, anything like C, C++, Rust i'd say it's potentially back on the table.

[near ocean]

You've been told by everyone here that leetcode is not as removed from reality as you think it is, i've also had to implement leetcode type shit at work sometimes

[honest pivot]

...I have had to write an LRU cache in Python in my job. 😛

[true harness]

the docs even tell you how to do that

[lapis wind]

im genuinely curious about this, under what circumstances?

[vapid jay]

You guys are making up stories to excuse these weird algo questions

[lapis wind]

It feels like in python it shouldn't really be necessary because of the std lib and the requirements that most python projects have probably wouldn't cause the std implementation to be rules out

[honest pivot]

It was actually worse than that. Wrote a Monte Carlo tree search algorithm that uses an LRU cache to prune tree nodes in order to limit memory usage.

[vapid jay]

It was good for me to stick to webdev because i in no way or shape or form want to work with those stuff

[smoky quest]

What makes you believe that?
In the interview process, it's common to have the manager and interview panel define the skills to test and how to assess them. We don't have much time with the candidates but have a lot of skills and behaviors to assess. So everyone is mindful of the time and to not waste it in useless questions that don't teach anything about the candidate

[honest pivot]

It's ok for you not to like it. When you say it is "useless" or "pretentious" or "not relevant to your job", then you are giving poor advice.

[lapis wind]

I mean... something which isn't already backed by the ecosystem? Probably not...

[vapid jay]

I stand by that those are not poor advice

[lapis wind]

Like lets face it, most web dev is the case of React + some pre made components + many libs + probably sass

[vapid jay]

Im full stack i have to work with python backend or express as well

Ive yet to see those stuff in there everything is just very straightforward

[digital fjord]

in the end, knowing these low level details matters once things stop working the simple, obvious way

[lapis wind]

Ehhh, the only time in your basic full stack site, the only time you're gonna care about the lower level details is probably when your database is going at a crawl.

[digital fjord]

I mean, after a couple years of development, how many sites will stay basic?

[lapis wind]

definitely doesn't hurt to just know them though, but if you don't want to learn it then sure.

[vapid jay]

We need to implement a binary search tree algorithm when it becomes more complex?

[near ocean]

Not the case for many jobs where the tech is stuck to what it was 10 years ago because of red tape and most things are custom inhouse implementations and not some fancy JS package

[lapis wind]

Honestly alot tbf, like, the ratio of basic CRUD sites or CMS based sites vs custom complex systems which aren't just outsourced is definitely one sided

[lapis wind]

not but in that case it just becomes "Learn JQuery" 🤣

[near ocean]

Imagine hiring someone to maintain custom trading algos and they cant even find a palindrome

[smoky quest]

that's also why bootcamps are popular. Cheap and easy workforce

It does not exclude the existence of more complex frontends though

[lapis wind]

Thats not really web dev though, or at least the web dev they're talking about I dont think

[vapid jay]

I mean rudimentary websites. Not some one in a million solution

[near ocean]

The webdev theyre talking about just sounds like clicking on some wordpress shit to me tbh, unless they expand on what they actually do

[vapid jay]

Express + react, or django + react websites. Not wordpress

[lapis wind]

I mean they're all the same area of difficulty

[vapid jay]

Well yeah. What do you expect from a website?

[lapis wind]

although you may wanna add C# + CMS + React / SSR cshtml if you want an easy life

[vapid jay]

Custom trading algo is sophisticated fintech stuff not common webdev jobs

[honest pivot]

Personally, I have no idea what most of these things are. My job really is more "pure algorithms" based, rather than "toolkits" based.

[leaden knot]

Static webpages are awesome

[vapid jay]

In your case its acceptable.

[near ocean]

How would you know what the common webdev job is? You have no experience? I work on the UI team and I come across this shit all the time

[smoky quest]

I have had frontends where we had to deal with real time updates and DP algos.
So interesting frontends do exist

[vapid jay]

You come across leetcode problems all the time?

[digital fjord]

if you are 6 years into people patching things onto this weird custom data type that someone made specifically to hold 4 values in a special way because the library to do it didn't exist yet, it may be time to see if maybe there could be some room for improvement. Of course, if all your websites are perfectly standard, with no legacy oddities and artefacts of long-term maintenance, you don't need much knowledge.

[near ocean]

You so stuck on leetcode its amazing

[vapid jay]

I just call algo ds stuff the same thing you get my point

[leaden knot]

This is the famous 'stunlock' mechanism people keep talking about

[near ocean]

If you understand that the job is not leetcode stuff all the time why wouldnt you bite the bullet and do leetcode so you can land a high paying job where you only occasionally have to do leetcode? Wouldnt that make more sense?

[true harness]

even if it's just once a month or something, you don't want to not know it when it comes up

[vapid jay]

That means hundreds of hours of preparation when i could spend with my loved ones

[true harness]

... hundreds?

[near ocean]

Then compromise and stay at the job you already have!

[lapis wind]

Im not even sure why we're in this boat of leetcode being this thing you must spend weeks of your life doing to be able to actually do them.

99% of interviews use questions you can do without actually doing any leetcode to begin with

[digital fjord]

I would rather not find some O(n!) abomination where someone made a travelling-salesman isomorphic lookup table because they just hacked at it till it worked, rather than being able to identify the correct data structure to use.

[lapis wind]

like, this seems like overhyping a non-issue

[digital fjord]

in most modern languages, it is a fairly simple choice to be fair -> a hash table

[vapid jay]

That is not true. If its overhyping then people wouldnt be complaining about these leetcode stuff

[smoky quest]

simulated annealing can be fun there too

[true harness]

people who failed interviews or people that conduct them?

[near ocean]

My boss refused to use dictionary structures and crammed hundreds of thousands* of rows of data into nested arrays in excel instead
And they gave me a leetcode type problem where i had to use a dict for efficient lookup lol

[digital fjord]

now, yes, there are interviews where people value being able to vomit a dynamic programming algorithm onto a whiteboard without a seconds hestitation over things that actually matter, but that is a very different task from just being able to solve a leetcode problem

[lapis wind]

BTrees > hashmaps

[honest pivot]

It depends on the context, which is the point I think 😛

[lapis wind]

I mean as a broad statement, it's true BTrees (tbf trees in general) are generally a much more adaptable structure than hashmaps because they maintain order, often (not always and depends on language tho) more company memory/storage wise and most of the time faster to iterator over while still being incredibly efficient for most cases.

[digital fjord]

you do get slower accesses, since they get deep fast though. And if you make the tree shallow, it gets memory-hungry. But I agree they are nicer overall.

[honest pivot]

I think #algos-and-data-structs is leaking

[errant vigil]

Guys what do you think about robotic or mechatronics, do you think its hard to get entry level join in thoes field

because i am sudying mechatronics

[summer roost]

Senior software engineer at a large news and financial analytics firm now, have been for ~7 years. In the 6 years prior to that, various jobs in FinTech - news and financial analytics, trading companies, and hedge funds. Before that I was a student in a BS CS program, and worked full time for 6 months and part time for another 9 in a lab working on wireless mesh networking tech, full time for 6 months at a company using an expert system to generate safety data sheets for the chemicals they ship, and full time for 6 months at a company that did low level network monitoring on embedded devices. The uni I went to had a co-op program, alternating between 6 month internships and 6 months of courses after the first year of the program.

CC: @near ocean

[near ocean]

Yea pretty good I gotta admit

[honest pivot]

I have a feeling this guy might know what he's talking about. Just a hunch.

[summer roost]

I know an above average amount, I think 😄

[summer roost]

yeah, those are definitely worthless. It's important to distinguish algorithms questions from puzzle questions.

[coarse crag]

I like how you are always explicit about things 🤣

[summer roost]

oh, and ftr I've also been an interviewer on and off over the last decade, so I have been involved in hiring decisions, at multiple companies.

[solar loom]

very impressive!

[ivory sluice]

i'm not happy at all with the amount of frustration in this channel recently stemming from disagreements between users spilling over into insults, calling one another trolls, and making assumptions about users' mental or neurological functions. if you're not contributing in this channel in a net-positive manner (as per our #code-of-conduct) then you don't need to participate. be here to make this a better place.

in the case of a disagreement just make your case, remove the emotion, don't get dismissive, and move on. it's okay if you don't persuade someone to your way of thinking. this is not debate club.

[graceful mason]

imo there has been a big uptick in contrarians and LARPers recently and it seems like moderators are reluctant to take action against them

[ivory sluice]

i don't have exact statistics, but a huge amount of moderation is not done in public. and if anyone wants more moderator eyes on a situation, then a DM to @severe widget is appropriate, or a moderator ping if it's urgent or needs immediate attention.

contributing to the situation by talking about the problematic user in a negative way? 🙅‍♀️ personally, i hate it. use @severe widget. not willing to open your DMs? then don't, but also don't make sarcastic or dismissive remarks in return. (this part is not directed at you, this is my general philosophy)

[graceful mason]

I don't think the number of eyes is an issue since there are plenty of moderators active here who have also engaged in the discussions, I also think the examples you've given are a bit weird:
making assumptions about users' mental or neurological functions - this is clearly just one person, how many times does he need to call everyone autistic before he's muted or banned?
calling one another trolls - the only time I've seen this said is against the 3/4 people that are clearly just coming on every couple of days to start the same arguments, how is not pointing this out going to prevent people engaging them?

[azure verge]

serious question: what are LARPers? as in live action role playing?

[graceful mason]

yep, people coming on pretending to be in situations because they enjoy making people frustrated

[ivory sluice]

re: part 1, that was addressed by a moderator directly earlier today. we will escalate accordingly as per our observations and/or reports but bear in mind that moderation can take many forms. don't mistake lack of a public infraction as lack of moderation. maybe from the perspective of a regular community member this results in frustration bc the details are not made privy to them, but that's how we currently moderate.

re: part 2, openly calling someone a troll almost always worsens a situation. if one has made that conclusion about someone then let others make it for themselves, and see earlier message about making reports to modmail. otherwise in general, i think it's best that users always engage in good faith, and then stop engaging if they personally make a conclusion that the user is trolling. anything beyond that in the form of accusations or especially insults, or a report to moderators is outside the purview of a non-moderator. the bottom line is: respect our #code-of-conduct. imo that means assuming the best of people, showing empathy and being gracious

my earlier message is also not just about today, but an observation of recent times

[coarse crag]

i think i can see your points. why should the moderators just let people causing problematic and unnecessary debate when they can just give warning and stop it right away? but i think it's not as easy when there is no clear proof that the person is intentionally causing disruption or whether they do seek a healthy discussion. sometimes, people complains when moderators try to use their power to moderate things and calling them "authoritarian and non-compromising" or even "abusing their power". maybe subtle warnings are indeed what's necessary.

[ivory sluice]

additional note: i know that some moderators are regulars in this channel, but that doesn't mean they always want to moderate the conversations here. this is another reason i encourage modmail reports, which are viewed by many more moderators

[coarse crag]

ooo

[graceful mason]

i'm not talking about someone sending 1 message, there's been people coming on every few days for a month straight before there's any repercussions
I mean they're usually breaking 2 parts of the CoC:

• Any spamming, flaming, baiting or other attention-stealing behavior
• Trolling, insulting/derogatory comments, and personal or political attacks

Why should they get any benefit of the doubt when they repeatedly do that?

[azure verge]

I know it's offtopic but I really have to ask now: is this behaviour the case because this is a rather big, international server open to everyone? I just started to use discord recently, am just 33 years old and until now felt not out of touch with different people in society - but I probably spent hours after joining a few servers just prettyshocked trying to somehow comprehend what's going on, don't think I experienced anything like this
Id really REALLY appreciate any comments or insights from some discord veterans (DM or other channel)

[smoky quest]

Not sure to follow. What are you referring to?

[coarse crag]

ah i see. well, for that i am not sure what to say. but if I were a moderator, i think it would be difficult for me to decide whether it should be taken into action or not. (I don't think i can be sure if the other person is actually trolling or not). It would be best to just leave it alone and be quiet cause the person causing disruption will stop talking if no one is responding anyway. i think, every action of the moderators affects the reputation of this server. i don't think they would want the server to be labeled as "authoritarian".

[smoky quest]

IANAM, but my take away from @ Mina's points are (and I do agree with them):

• Don't engage with negative or toxic behavior. No need to add oil to the fire
• Feel free to report activity that appears toxic or non-productive, even if it does not explicitly break the rules. Mods can keep an eye on it and see if it is a repeated behavior

[coarse crag]

yes yes, i agree

[azure verge]

the way of communication here, people blasting into any channel, disregarding reading any rules (I know, people don't, but still), just yelling into channels periodically, complain when help takes too long or just an explanation and not the code someone expects the chat to write, not so much reacting to what others write, often putting bold statements out as truth, directed to nobody, into the void, then getting angry if someone doubts their wisdom etc

[smoky quest]

That has been the case for most chat platforms in my experience. There have been references and jokes about trolls as far back as I remember
This may be more pronounced here as the majority of the population is below 18 years old. That can make the moderation an interesting balancing act between firmly kicking out misbehaving folks and educating newcomers to the proper etiquette

[azure verge]

last chat platform I used which is comparable to discord was IRC so yeah, all seems very plausible to me, thanks

[azure verge]

in my defense I'm not that crazy it's just 4 semesters of sociology studies that made me this way

[summer roost]

The biggest part of the answer is that the majority of users on this server are literal children. We did a survey of our users last year, and 60% of respondents were 18 or younger.

The most common question in this channel is about whether or not it's worth getting a degree, to put things in perspective.

[true harness]

discord was originally marketed towards younger people

[delicate bane]

which youve given a brilliant answer to imo

[spring bone]

hey guys

can i anyone tell me what is the meaning of cybersecurity and what it does?

[coarse crag]

cyber = information technology / internet?
security = safety

cybersecurity = the effort to provide the environment to transfer data/information safely from one computer to the other. minimizing the possibility of data loss, transfer of damaging data (malware) that can break your computer, or attack that's directed towards a specifically targeted computer system, or the act of stealing data. etc

google might provide better answer than i did. (not sure if that was what you were asking)

[peak halo]

"cyber" is just the first half of "cybernetics", which comes from the Greek word "kybernetes". which might look familiar

I'm not entirely sure how "cybersecurity" became so ubiquitous that "cyber" became an abbreviation for it.

suffice to say, "cyber" as a prefix predates the internet.

[coarse crag]

damn i didn't know that

[buoyant pumice]

you all suck

[summer roost]

!tempban 766160641630928927 365d No, you do

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @buoyant pumice until <t:1693547568:f> (1 year).

[buoyant seal]

It sounds like can be translated to: who wants to gift me money or work for free

<@&831776746206265384> let's assume it breaks rule about not offering work. And kind of exact reason why this rule appeared. Preventing potentially scam offers

[tiny frigate]

hey guys

could someone suggest me a book to start with django

[buoyant seal]

i would say official tutorials for Django and Django rest framework are more than enough
but if u insist on books, there is Vincent often updated

[full arrow]

Hey Guys, I like Machine learning and AI and would love to work in that field, started with Python but I’m wondering if that is a good start and if there’s anything that I have to do before coming to this field, I don’t have any previous experience with programming

[buoyant seal]

I think it would be really nice having university degree. Machine learning is sort of just extension of Data Science.
And for data science degree is needed with math and programming. Or at least it is super often job requirement as far I noticed

[full arrow]

Well I’m currently in college and next year will be going to University

So this year might be a good opportunity to make my basics

[buoyant seal]

Consider digilently getting aspect of math then when u get into uni. Not just programming

[full arrow]

Which parts of the math are used in it?

[buoyant seal]

I am not data scientist or machine learning guy. I just used ML during master diploma a bit. I am actually backend/DevOps person.

Better ask others probably, but I hear that majority of math is useful
Linear algebra, regression analysis, statisics/probability theory, Fourier/laplas equations, and etc

[full arrow]

Thanks for sharing that, I’m looking to get in to some discord communities which are specifically for AI and ML.

[buoyant seal]

We have channel at least purely for this #data-science-and-ml

Check list here
https://github.com/mhxion/awesome-discord-communities#machine-learning
Ml and DS sections

[full arrow]

Ohh awesome I’ll join this, thank you 🙏🏻

[spiral barn]

hi, im building my portfolio on github atm anyone got any project suggestions?

[honest pivot]

You should do something related to your own interests, then you'll have the most motivation to finish it

[gilded valley]

Yeah - make a tool for a game you play or hobby you enjoy or something. If you actually like or use the thing you're building, it's likely to end up higher quality

[spiral barn]

I also dont want it to be too ambitious. I figured id rather start with smaller projects and slowly build up but im having a hard time upscaling the difficulty of the projects. Recently finished doing simple codes like hangman, file sorters, rgb color finder, etc.. and i wanted to do something a bit more challenging but I dont know how to find a good balanced project for that. (googled some advanced projects and most of them were out of my reach for now) Any suggestions for how I can evaluate the difficulty of a project? (vague question I know but still..)

I was thinking of writing code to simulate how a car engine works (one of my other interests) but I dont know if its too ambitious to take on for now.

[honest pivot]

A common beginner project that might be more challenging than the ones you've done is to make a calculator.

[warped sluice]

heyy how am i getiing help here?

[spring bone]

alright thanks thanks you did what you manage to say and i could understand

[neon crag]

just started i know nothing i downloaded vs code installed python and watched a youtube tutorial and learned what strings and loops are but i dont know how i need to begin any further.

[peak halo]

see #❓｜how-to-get-help

[graceful mason]

Keep going through the basic tutorials and use roadmap.sh when you need further guidance

[scarlet sedge]

Hey everyone, My name is Bhuvan Biju. I am a cs major and I am desperately searching for a good internship for summer 2023. If anyone could share their exp about getting their first internship then please hmu or share below. Thanks 👍🏻

[graceful mason]

Your university's career services should be your first port of call - they will be able to give you advice on how to apply for internships, do interviews etc and also are in contact with businesses who offer internships in your field + local area

[scarlet sedge]

Oh ya I did try that. I have applied as well. But the companies I see in my college port seemed to hard to get into.

[spiral barn]

try encrypting some text. do morse code (sounds scary but it really isn't)

[vapid jay]

yo

[sudden dome]

yo

[vapid jay]

sup? boi

[summer roost]

do you have a career-related question?

[vapid jay]

yap I do

[sudden dome]

how im in high school, how do I make money off coding

[vapid jay]

what can be best for me if I wanna experiment new stuff with codding

[vapid jay]

I also wanna know

[summer roost]

there are not a lot of jobs that will pay high schoolers to code. You can try a freelancing site like fiverr or upwork, but unless you're quite talented already, you'll have trouble making any serious money off it, at least at first. You'll likely start off doing work for well below minimum wage. You'd likely be better off getting a normal kid high school job like working at a store or restaurant, and continue your studies towards getting a degree in Computer Science or Software Engineering.

[sudden dome]

awwww

[summer roost]

one avenue where you might be able to incorporate some amount of coding into a job as a teenager is to take an office job that involves a lot of busywork, and seeing if some of that busywork can be automated away. Some people have some success with that.

[sudden dome]

oh

[delicate bane]

you know what im finding, and idk if this is true at other peeps' companies, but like a smidgen of soft skills can go a long way in the technical space

[ivory sluice]

a smidgen lmao

is written communication considered a soft skill?

[summer roost]

communication in general is a soft skill, yeah. And it goes a very long way. Good written communication skills are a superpower for devs, especially given how many jobs have some amount of remote work these days

[buoyant seal]

usually for any remote job we can see often requirement of having English of level B1 or C1 and higher at third world market vacancies.
Not really useful worker, which can't communicate 🙂

[peak halo]

depends on what kind of communication you're writing about. technical writing is (tautologically) a technical skill, and an important skill, even if it's one that developers stereotypically lack.

writing emails to coworkers and clients that get the point across, are easy to read, and which don't make anyone mad, is a soft skill.

[delicate bane]

i would consider written communication def so

[hoary summit]

Recently I built a process automation for a friend at a tech company. It saves 10hrs/week for this person and I want to use it to help me get a job somewhere. The issue is, I used private keys to build it. This could put (friend) in potential risk while applying to the same company.

How do I sell the project and my skills without putting my friend in danger

[true harness]

wdym private keys

[sudden nymph]

does anyone here do python work that isn't web dev?

[peak halo]

Every single member of this server only does web development.

But in all seriousness, don't ask to ask. Why are you interested to know who doesn't do web development? What would you ask if someone said yes? There's a possibility that I could have been answering your actual question right now, had you asked it outright.

[sudden nymph]

Here you go: For those of you who do work in Python and it isn’t web development, what do you do?

[peak halo]

AI

[sudden nymph]

What kind

[peak halo]

human/natural language tech

[sudden nymph]

How’d you get started in that?

[peak halo]

I had been a linguistics student, but then I realized that I like code and money.

[sudden nymph]

Do you use any langs other than python?

[peak halo]

it's the only general-purpose language I use. the others I use are bash, or SQL. things like that.

[sudden nymph]

Cool. So if I wanted to do that, what accomplishments should I have under my belt

[peak halo]

an advanced degree related to artificial intelligence.

[summer roost]

My career has been as a backend developer on Unix systems. I mostly use C++ and Python as my general purpose languages these days.

[vapid jay]

my tech lead said that I don’t know anything today in a meeting 😟

[delicate bane]

oooooof. what prompted this?

that also sounds like a poor way of doing things.

[vapid jay]

some coworkers were asking about where certain computer equipment was in the office and they were asking my lead about who would know about location of the equipment

[summer roost]

Well, that sounds unprofessional

[vapid jay]

its not anyone acknowledges or respects me at work...people think I'm dumb even though I work pretty hard to figure things out on my own...

[summer roost]

That sounds like a pretty toxic environment to work in

[vapid jay]

yeah...tbh, i'm used to it. This is my first job which i've been in for 1.5 years now. All the leads and people who are senior and above don't care about what the people below them think. At my internship (different company, startup culture), it was a lot worse toxicity and the company embraced it because it always was about results. The guy who my manager, at the time, assigned to be my mentor, had a very short temper and was very immature. He seldom helped me on my work (meaning guidance) and most of the time, he'd always give me angry stares every day after I was leaving work. Another guy who was supposed to help me also treated me the same. Had a panic attack midway through my internship because I felt so alone and lost.

its really hard to find a non-toxic workplace imo...

[summer roost]

What country is this in? What industry?

[vapid jay]

U.S., medical device

[summer roost]

If I were you, I'd be applying to other jobs.

that is definitely not representative of working conditions at most companies.

[vapid jay]

what is working conditions? I dont even know what that is, at this point. I’m burnt out and people chew me out for not knowing the process thats internal…

[peak halo]

@vapid jay your description of your workplace is probably the worst I've seen in this channel. if they interviewed you for the position, and offered it to you, then they should have work for you that you know how/can figure out how to do. and if you get stuck and can't unstuck yourself after a while, they should be willing to help you. I would try to get out of there as soon as possible.

[hoary summit]

Login information to access web apps

[summer roost]

so your friend gave you credentials that allow you to log into web apps, impersonating an employee. You used this access to build some automation that does part of your friend's job for them. You want to try to convince the company to hire you, based on your performance on this project. Do I have that all right?

[hoary summit]

@summer roost I want to showcase the skills I learned and the platform experience I gained on my portfolio, but not throw my friend under the bus.

[summer roost]

so I do understand the situation correctly?

in that case, you absolutely should not attempt to do what you're proposing. The company will not be happy about it. Depending on the country that this happened in, you and your friend have likely both broken laws. At the very least, your friend likely violated their contract and the company's rules and policies, and possibly also a confidentiality agreement.

and it's quite likely that you broke laws that forbid gaining access to computer systems in excess of authorization.

[hoary summit]

I don't think I impersonated them. I built it with them where they would tell me they need [x][y] column from a recent download .xlsx. Or to access a web element, I showed them how to get an XPATH and then I would plug it in asking if it needed to be clicked/ or sent information.

the keys would be stored in a private file and so i guess if we both have access to the file than yeah its pretty bad.

Im a self taught nobody right now and so I'm kinda trying to do whatever I can to get on a companies radar, but this just sounds like something I should leave off. Thanks @summer roost

[summer roost]

If they revealed confidential information about their work, quite possibly including the structure of the documents they were processing, they likely violated their contract and/or company policies and/or a confidentiality agreement.
If they gave you keys that would allow you to access the company's systems with privileges intended for your friend, it is likely that they've broken criminal laws - and possibly that you have as well, if you've ever made use of those credentials.

This story reminds me of https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-21043693

[fiery shell]

Does udemy courses have any worth for recruiters, during job hunting? On Linkeding or whatsoever? ( Iknow that, not all), but if some, which ones are the best for data science/engi/analyst?

[vapid jay]

My family member works with medical devices. Theres often a lot of pressure and strictness due to how safety critical those systems are

[vapid jay]

Fullstack courses that covers different technologies they are looking for may be benefical. Altough make sure you include them in your cover letter to better describe your experience with them.

[vapid jay]

Is this discord accepts Job posts? Where to put if yes?

[vapid jay]

no

but peeps need jobs? right? 😿

[near ocean]

There are other places one can search for jobs at, more specialised places like linkedin, indeed, totaljobs, etc

[vestal ledge]

Hey guys have you worked on the selenium grid needed help from you please

[dense mesa]

<@&831776746206265384>

[near remnant]

I've got invited to a Machine Learning interview. I don't know why, I know nothing about ML. I will talk to the CEO on the interview. So weird...

[dense mesa]

Is this for an internship

[near remnant]

They said its a full-time role but they might hire me as an intern.

I told them I know zero about ML but highly motivated to learn.

Weird stuff

[near ocean]

Is it paid

[near remnant]

Yep

[obsidian acorn]

then, go for it,

[near remnant]

Yeah, I will

I've made a few Flask projects and they said they are looking for someone who has experience with Flask, for this ML role. Its really an advantage if I know flask. Lmao 💀🤣 how is flask connected to ML?

[digital fjord]

being able to make a frontend for someone to actually the ML model is quite valuable. When you need to spend a couple hours setting up the exact set of libraries and env vars needed to run the python script that is the only way to actually use the model, it makes it a lot less useful.

[gilded valley]

Do you use a script?

[near remnant]

Hmm

[near remnant]

Wdym?

[gilded valley]

To generate these bullshit scenarios

[near remnant]

What are you talking about? You okay?

This dude is salty

[dense mesa]

@near remnant tbqh you've literally said multiple times you only say these things as a joke and to "troll" people or whatever it was

[near remnant]

Bro, i was joking. But honestly, feel like I cant say anything here bcus I get trolled. So have a nice weekend, salty @gilded valley

[dense mesa]

So it's hard to take the questions seriously when you've said you're from 3 different countries and have done 6 internships without any offers

[near remnant]

Thanks for trolling me. Hope you guys enjoyed it.

[ivory sluice]

!silence

[inner wren]

✅ silenced current channel for 10 minute(s).

[ivory sluice]

just stay out of these scenarios instead of reacting like this. or make a report to @severe widget. I don't appreciate this attitude.

@near remnant what were you joking about, exactly? the ML interview?

!silence

[inner wren]

❌ current channel is already silenced.

[ivory sluice]

!unsilence

[inner wren]

✅ unsilenced current channel.

[near remnant]

I didnt joke about anything

But that guy is on me always and being salty to me

[ivory sluice]

I do recall you changing your country multiple times, so I do see why many people here are suspicious as to the truthfulness of your messages

I hope you don't take advantage of the goodwill of people here spending their free time volunteering and helping people

[near remnant]

I don't

Anyways, good weekend everyone.

[delicate bane]

oof maybe you should consider switching industries imo. im in healthcare software, and the culture at our company is very supportive towards juniors.

[vapid jay]

hi, can you elaborate more on what kind of opportunities are open for healthcare software and how that can be different from medical device?

[vapid jay]

Hey

[peak halo]

Hello, this is the career discussion channel, so please make sure all your messages are about that.

[vapid jay]

Yaa

I just completed my schooling at this year

I want to pursue in artificial intelligence and data science department

Can anyone can give some suggestions about it?

[peak halo]

so you want to work as an AI developer or as a data scientist? did you do any coursework or internships related to that?

[vapid jay]

Ai developer

[peak halo]

This channel has a high slowmode, so remember to answer every question in one message.

[vapid jay]

I chose ai oriented course

Ai and ds engineering

College b.tech 1st year

[peak halo]

Have you begun applying to those sorts of positions? What sort of response have you gotten? Again, remember to say everything that you want to say in one message.

[vapid jay]

From india

No not yet

I don't have idea about course actually but i want to know about ai more

I hope this discord channel will help me

[marsh wind]

just to clarify: you are only about to start your first year of Bachelor?

[vapid jay]

Yaa

[marsh wind]

I this case I would not worry too much. You'll have enough time to learn about AI/Data science and to figure out which area you really want to pursue. And, depending on how your uni works you'll also have opportunities to try all these things

[vapid jay]

As a ai developer or data scientist, actually I have a dream that I want to program robots that can perform equally with doctors

Robots that can replace a doctor

[graceful mason]

If you want to program robots maybe look into robotics/mechatronics/embedded rather than AI

[vapid jay]

Ohh why not ai?

[graceful mason]

AI has a small role in the overall operation of a robot like that, e.g. just providing a model for the vision component
99% of the code will have no AI involved at all
All that could be very dependent on the specific task the robot is performing though

[vapid jay]

Ohh ok

i would advise demand based roles

So I just wanna know what scope is there I want to pursue in AI and ds

I don't about it, please help me

AI is used in different applications

narrow ai is very widespread for specialized tasks, perhaps you may like to pursue them?

Yaa

I want

And my parents are sending me to a coding class separately after I joined my first year of bachelor's in ai and ds

Everyone in India suggested to me to develop more coding skills

Please don't mistake me for my broken English 🙏 I'm at the learning stage, I ain't a professional coder like you people. Please kindly give some suggestions related to my career.

I can't able to type here so, please kindly DM me personally 🙏

[marsh wind]

it's not very typical to get help in DMs here, you have much higher chance to get advice in the channel

[vapid jay]

Ohh ok

Thank you

[royal star]

can i get some help

i've been running through a problem for a while

[graceful mason]

If it's not careers related then #❓｜how-to-get-help otherwise just ask

[vapid jay]

Hello, how do I get a job as a python developer, and what skills are required? My goal is a get a job at a company, what python knowledge do I need to know.

[gritty rivet]

The best way to understand this is to look at job listings as well as career paths on LinkedIn. This may also help: https://roadmap.sh/python

[vapid jay]

Ok I will check it out, thank you very much.

[buoyant seal]

Python is just a scratch of what needs to be known.

People need knowing different additional skill sets to any chosen career path:
Be it Data science, Machine leading
Backend Developer, DevOps engineer,
Data engineer

[vapid jay]

Oh wow, turns out there is so much to learn.

[buoyant seal]

Python Backend developer
Usually learns

Python
Backend specific stuff (common things to RestAPI, how to go from Monolith to Microservices, and how working with such... Infrastructure, databases SQL, and many types of NoSQL, authentications)
Software engineering (testing, clean code, architecture, system analysis and design, encryption and other security, working with version control systems)
Basics to frontend
Infrastructure as a code approach and other things from DevOps engineer field
Some smart cookies are also really capable cracking math stuff

Feel free to use for reference
Popular map:
https://roadmap.sh/backend
My map with software engineering https://github.com/darklab8/darklab_backend_roadmap/blob/master/swe_backend.drawio.svg
And interesting list of everything in python backend https://www.fullstackpython.com/

And that I mentioned just different stuff to Backend path. For which highly preferable to get CS degree first too

In the end there is lot of different little and not little things/applications from backend ecosystem of different open source or proprietary solutions too

And Linux is used at almost every step. So better to get used to it too

[vapid jay]

k

[vapid jay]

yo

how do I make a request to a website and make it wait on the page for like 6 seconds?

[delicate bane]

hi, try #❓｜how-to-get-help or #web-development as this channel is for #career-advice

[vapid jay]

I am learning fullstack rn with python and it is very knowledge intensive

Im a 16 year old in Uk should I go to Collage or not

[gritty rivet]

Yes and no... There is endless stuff to learn and even a lot of entry level jobs may expect you to know a lot of different things, that's all true

But there are jobs out there, if you look hard enough, that don't actually require a whole lot more than basic Python proficiency

So that's why I say you need to study the job market to really understand what opportunities you want to aim for and then just target your skills to match

[near ocean]

yes

[vapid jay]

Alr, I keep that into account

thank I will try to get a full ride at Oxford

[cinder grove]

Hey guys, I'm currently at the doorstep to write my bachelor thesis and have difficulties to come up with a topic.
My question to all those of you, who wrote theirs on machine learning / deep learning: What was your topic and did you partner up with a company?

Thanks in advance for all the replies

[peak halo]

I'm only familiar with one writing a thesis for a masters or phd. do you mind giving more context?

[fiery nexus]

You're going to want to start with FORTRAN and Common Lisp

[peak halo]

what is this in response to?

[gritty rivet]

Previous theses from your program should be available to you. Ask profs to recommend you the best examples and look at those

[buoyant seal]

Doc, we are already past 2015 year. We aren't in 1985 year any longer. It is at least dozens years late for Fortran and Lisp.

[cinder grove]

I am studying business informatics. A mix of general econ and software life cycle

[vapid jay]

Train the model to recognize patterns in the stocks perhaps

[buoyant seal]

Ergh. just picking up random topic from https://kaggle.com/ is kind of fine. You would wish choosing competion with data of small size to have fast model training though.
I had topic like... discovering salt in geo radio scans for oil discovery

[cinder grove]

Wouldn't that be too common?
Is it possible to write a thesis about a topic, which already has many git repos out there?

[vapid jay]

Cant stress enough, pick a small size and make sure you process the data into minimal identifiable form

[vapid jay]

Thesis doesnt have to be unique. Ask your teachers.

[near ocean]

What country is this in btw?

[cinder grove]

Hmm, in that case its more practical to get data from api's or writing a data scraper to show my pronounced effort

[cinder grove]

Germany

[dense mesa]

I did mine on facial expression recognition but didn't get it supported by industry, it made it harder at the beginning without help but got there in the end

[delicate bane]

you should have an advisor of sorts if you are writing a thesis. have you asked them for ideas as well?

[dreamy saddle]

where do you learn data modeling?

dimensional modeling*

[vapid jay]

On the job @dreamy saddle

[dreamy saddle]

For real?

I did take the Data Warehouse for Beginner in Udemy

Im still having a hard time apply it in a real world problem

[dreamy saddle]

did you take data engineering?

[vapid jay]

Nope. Learned by reading and trying and on the job

[dreamy saddle]

I see

[vapid jay]

and you @dreamy saddle ?

[dreamy saddle]

I wanna take data engineering

but im still undergraduate

[marble quiver]

hello

can anyone help me out with my python hw?

[dreamy saddle]

you should ask for help in Help channels

[vapid jay]

What do you want to do with that degree?

[dreamy saddle]

to be a data engineer

[vapid jay]

So I got the google foobar yesterday, thing is I really suck at coding, can this actually get you an interview?

[lone roost]

hello

u guys think a degree in cs is worth

i live in west coast usa

[true harness]

probably, but depends on your situation somewhat

[lapis wind]

I think in the US it's largely required if you want to get into the industry

[near ocean]

It used to, now its just some competition afaik

[coarse crag]

ooo

[white vector]

hi guys! i am currently just starting my UG with a major in cs with specialization in cyber physical systems. I am quite conflicted as to what career path I have to choose after I am done with UG and I was planning on doing my PG in america. Any suggestions?

[pastel thunder]

will i face challenges if i only have ms in cs and my bachelors was mechanical

[near ocean]

No, in fact you're quite ahead of most cs people
Usually you only need a CS bs to get a job

[lapis wind]

LinkedIn IMO is probably the best, Followed by indeed

[graceful mason]

Then don't use the social media side of it

[delicate bane]

hmm if you feel like youve exhausted these opportunities, have you tried taking a step back and doing a reassessment?

[drifting violet]

hello

which is better web development or iac devops as a career path

most importantly which one is lighter in terms of learning new technologies because web development nowadays is just absolute madness

imo ofc

i mean html css javascript react typescript node js express angular vue mongodb tailwind etc etc

[peak halo]

all branches of development are like that.

[drifting violet]

for real?

i mean i know but the question is are all of them as a heavy as web dev

like cloud computing for example which im currently asking is as heavy as web dev in frameworks and libraries ?

sorry to y'all who love web dev i may sound like im exaggerating it or i maybe am but js is weird cmon

[peak halo]

I'll let someone else comment, since I'm not a web developer.

[drifting violet]

in which field are u into or getting into idk ?

[peak halo]

I work as an AI developer for human language tech.

[delicate bane]

honestly this

[delicate bane]

it may not be as heavy in frameworks, but its just as heavy in various tools and technology (DW can probs comment more on this). and thats not even including the different cloud services themselves as well as other necessary knowledge such as networking, security, etc..

heres a quick glance just for GCP services https://googlecloudcheatsheet.withgoogle.com/

[drifting violet]

thats super cool + my dream damn

[drifting violet]

thank you so much man

[hearty tusk]

Damn some stereotypes are pretty accurate

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @vapid jay until <t:1662224109:f> (10 minutes) (reason: discord_emojis rule: sent 25 emojis in 10s).

The <@&831776746206265384> have been alerted for review.

[balmy spade]

@vapid jay When you mute expires please respect the topic of this room. This is #career-advice , not a dumping ground for offtopic comments and emote spam.

[shadow moss]

DevOps but DevOps is speciality so generally you need to learn something else before switching to it. Also, DevOps is not IaC

[balmy spade]

It's a shame that DevOps has been blended into a generic term used for half a dozen various possible career paths. Most of which with unhealthy expectations on a group of team members.

I do agree, though, that digging into the DevOps range of skills will open more doors that focusing solely on webdev. Now, if you really enjoy WebDev then go deep on it. Just keep your learning open to what goes behind WebDev as well. The IaC, the database choices, the storage options, the network deployments, etc.

[drifting violet]

i tried to search what people who use iac tools are called but all i got was iac definition im sorry

[balmy spade]

Full stack is one such terms.

[shadow moss]

Most companies do it because it advertises one group of really expensive people supporting a group of not so expensive people so savings!

[balmy spade]

Yup! It so blindly misses the entire ethos behind DevOps that it hurts.

[shadow moss]

Most companies are always going to blindly grab something they don't understand and warp it. World gets easier when you realize most people rarely add value.

[drifting violet]

tbh i dont like web dev thats why i asked which one is better as i said web dev is heavy with frameworks and libraries that are based on js language and my only problem is with js not web dev as a career or development field

maybe cuz i come from a python background idk js syntax is just weird to me

bro really 12 lmfao

[balmy spade]

!tempban 933790205444522006 4d Take a break

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @icy sphinx until <t:1662569886:f> (4 days).

[shadow moss]

you don't have to do WebDev, just as DevOps person, I really think zero -> DevOps is horrible thing

[near ocean]

Why do you not like webdev? Its a very common sentiment and Im not sure I understand why

[balmy spade]

WebDev isn't easy. It's heavy on the UI/UX which takes a different talent over the backend code playground. imo.

[drifting violet]

i dont like js i never said that i didnt like web dev as an entire career path or field

[shadow moss]

Ok, so do backend if you want?

[lapis wind]

Personally for me is it feels just too repetitive for most projects. Every so often you get a project which is different. But most of the time they're the exact same flavour of things. If not a very generic backend, then something like a generic CMS etc... (Talking in terms of a commercial environment)

At least that's what led me to changing jobs recently. Got bored of writing C# and the generic stuff pretty quickly.

[shadow moss]

Most jobs are pretty generic unfortunately, you are writing software to do some business thing that few people care about.

[lapis wind]

True, although I think backend web dev in the tech area, is probably one of the most generic. Which is great for companies because it's easy to find people to pick up a code base, so many backends are just C#, Asp and EF. If not that, then one of the popular Python or PHP frameworks, etc...

Frontend feels less generic but I guess that's to be expected because ultimately the way the page looks differs far more from company to company compared to what they're actually doing task wise.

[drifting violet]

see i had a job interview and he sent me learning materials (youtube tutorials lmao) and gave me 2 weeks to do a small project but gave me 2 paths one was in web dev and the other in infrastucture as code but iac was the first time i heard it in my life just a week ago so i was kinda blind to dig into that from scratch so i focused on web dev first but man they used so many technologies of js

next vue angular node express typescript react etc

node made me change my mind btw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcJ9IeukJL8, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIjeiDcsR3Q this the stuff he sent me for iac

[shadow moss]

Yes, that is Infrastructure as Code but my point is, IaC is something DevOps does but knowing IaC doesn't make you DevOps

[drifting violet]

i know but can it land a job ?

[shadow moss]

Generally just knowing IaC won't land you a job

[drifting violet]

i see

what else do you need to know?

[shadow moss]

understanding infrastructure, public clouds, DevOps is something you learn as you learn sysadmin or being developer

[drifting violet]

thanks man

[native oar]

what is the typical life of a man who works in programming??

Do we get time for other things?
Also is it worth it?
What kind of career options does programming lead to?

[viscid kraken]

Hey! I want to use my python skills to work but I'm under the age of 18 so I can't really apply for a job at a company. I'd like to work on server side projects with python but I had no luck finding one on Fiverr. The best would be to get paid for it, but I want to gather some experience by doing it for free at the start. So can you recommend any site where I can find projects like this or even advertise myself for free?(I'm not sure if this is the correct channel to post this, if not, please say it)

[peak halo]

the term "work-life balance" is often used in discussion about how demanding a job is of ones time. and it really depends on the company and your position in it.

I'm not sure how to answer your last question except to say "programming careers".

[near ocean]

Unless you work for demons, work hours should be a regular 40ish hours a week
Yes it is worth it (provided you enjoy it)

[peak halo]

Don't work for free. Depending on your jurisdiction, people probably can't even not pay you unless you're not actually doing anything valuable for them. And if you're not doing anything valuable for them, then it's a waste of everyone's time.

That said, if you've just been practicing Python on your own for a while, you probably don't yet know enough to deliver anything of substance to an employer, and potential employers probably don't have a reason to believe that you could deliver for them.

[viscid kraken]

Thanks for your reply, but you say that I can only get a work after I got a degree for example? I can't work if I'm a self-taught?

[viscid kraken]

.

[balmy spade]

Getting a job as a developer does not require a degree. However, a degree will make it easier in many regards.

[wheat kernel]

Is networking administrator a specific computer science branch? Asking for a friend.

[peak halo]

What makes something a "specific branch" of something else? I'm not being pedantic. There's no Universal Computer Science Branch Determination Authority.

[shadow moss]

it's also slowing career field

[peak halo]

I would also wonder if there's any *non-*overlap in the skillsets of those employed as "systems administrators" vs "network administrators"

[shadow moss]

generally they are different ish

Generally network administrators refers to people in charge of making the packets go. Routers/Switches and the like. Systems Administrators are generally running OS and applications that came with OS.

I've seen companies refer to System Administrators as Network Administrators as it's left over term to anyone who dealt with networked computers but it's pretty rare.

[drifting violet]

if you're referring to the piece of paper called 'diploma' it may be true to a certain extent

depends on the university and the stuff who teaches you about the degree you're taking reallty

about how much you really learn on a university i just finished my bachelor and the teachers never even bothered to put on practice together with them the skills we learned or theory shit we did exams on programming language on paper like wtf

*just to be sure....know that im not attacking u or anything like that 😂

[balmy spade]

I don't think that a degree on a resume speaks at all to what was learned. It just says, to me, that the person I'm interviewing has committed their time and accomplished the goal. They have experience, at least, in school which can be translated to working with me. Additionally, they have exposer to a variety of topics that won't be foreign to them as they enter the workforce.

It is not required, in the states at least. If you don't have a degree on your resume you just have to have something that supplements the experience. That is harder to start from a self-taught position, but not impossible.

[drifting violet]

i agree with everything on this

[balmy spade]

To my first comment; if it mattered what you learned then we'd be taught to put our grades on our resumes. I have never, in 30 years, been asked what my grades were in high school.

[drifting violet]

no one would care if you know stuff that doesn't spark interest to them so yeah it is valid

because you learn a variety of things in schools if yk what i mean

however i will say that in some countries(speaking on my own experience in my country with almost all the universities and probably there are a few countries like mine in world when it comes to education) it is not worth to get a degree when you could use the time spent in school to learn by yourself you couldn't even compare the knowledge with the resources we have online nowadays

[smoky quest]

That also leads to a different outcome in terms of career.
Degrees will help getting into more complex and demanding jobs, which will compound and lead to a different career path

[drifting violet]

that is true also

[smoky quest]

The self taught who struggles to get in a web agency, which will treat them badly, will have a different path than the one getting into a FAANG for their first job

[drifting violet]

but for those jobs bachelor won't be enough

like certain ai positions

[smoky quest]

Considering the number of new grads with a bachelor being hired, that would imply that it is though

[smoky quest]

definitely. Some position would require a master or even a phd. But that's also a different path from a bs

[drifting violet]

i dont know about that man tbh havent done any research about it i just shared my own experience and opinion for certain ppl in this discord not to discourage them or anything but just to do their own research (depends on country) before they waste their money

[burnt shuttle]

Hey could a friendly person dm me, I have a question regarding phyton

[smoky quest]

So am I 🙂

[drifting violet]

at the end of the day is still a plus dont get me wrong

[smoky quest]

Saying the degree was useless was a pretty bad advice imho. But everyone is entitled to their own opinion

[drifting violet]

not the degree

[smoky quest]

Hi and welcome!
However you are asking in the wrong place. You should check out #❓｜how-to-get-help

[drifting violet]

the university teaching that degree

[burnt shuttle]

okay thank you,

[drifting violet]

i dont want to be a party pooper or anything but i finished my studies for software engineering and the biggest project we made was a gui in java with a sentence in the middle of the screen with two responsive buttons like cmon bro 😭 😂

no backend no js no python no go... only fundamentals in c# like looping thru arrays and shit 😂

[smoky quest]

Multiple points on that:

• The specific practical aspects don't belong to the university. That's something anyone can pick up in a few days. The university is there to teach you the fundamentals that will help your whole career, not becoming a code monkey
• University is what you will make of it. The best students are the ones who invest their time in it and don't just tag along but also have projects and go deeper. At the end it's what you make of it
• Yes, there will bad teachers and good teachers. That will be the same in your life everywhere. You don't know shit about medecine (and me neither) and that's why we don't really distinguish bad doctor and good doctor. Similarly, there are bad companies and good companies, including your future managers and coworkers. So you need to be mindful about how you go about it in terms of initial selection (ex: which university you go to) and how you address that problem (ex: investing more time to make up for the short coming)

[drifting violet]

bro really shut my mouth with this 😂 ggs all your points are valid

like i really get all the things you pointed out cuz i been told so the same things before but spending 10k $ for all the things i said its up to you to tell me if its worth it

like everyone got perspectives and i humbly can agree if mine is wrong since as i said all the things you pointed out are valid but the thing is...is it worth it in money compared to online platforms like udemy ?

or coursera

or datacamp

[near ocean]

Yes, go get a degree

[drifting violet]

i have one bro shut up

😂

[near ocean]

You literally asked if its worth the money, the answer is yes

[smoky quest]

Yep, it's worth it in the grand scheme of things.
Sure, it sucks to have to pay that much, but I see it more like an investment in your future

[drifting violet]

i see

[smoky quest]

If it was for another field like history or social sciences, that may not be worth it. But given the returns in career and wealth, that's worth it for CS

[drifting violet]

i know man i was jk thank you

[drifting violet]

i understand man thank you also it means a lot

[vapid jay]

You learn backend in your own time wish we had a school for it tho

Udemy is your friend when it comes to learning what school didnt teach

[true harness]

i can only give a report on my school, but we have tens of electives about industry tech. web dev, databases, cloud computing, etc, etc

[vapid jay]

What type of school is it that teaches web dev?