career-advice

[vapid jay]

hey guys, for back-end development, do you see Python being really used for that or Java have more opportunities?

[shadow moss]

It's used but Java/C#/Node is vastly more popular

[buoyant seal]

https://www.indeed.com/m/jobs?q=Backend+Python+Developer

https://www.indeed.com/m/jobs?q=Backend Java Developer&l=&from=searchOnSerp&sameL=1

Going to job web site. And composting in search
5165 units of back for python
11456 units of back for java

[shadow moss]

Python is commonly used as Glue language and language used by not software developers. There are several things that make it not so great backend language. Lack of typing, interpreted and dealing with modules

[buoyant seal]

Also some amount of python jobs are occupied by data satanists and machine learners

[shadow moss]

looking at Python you posted, some of those jobs are mainlining java but reference python

like this one: https://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=Backend+Python+Developer&from=mobRdr&utm_source=%2Fm%2F&utm_medium=redir&utm_campaign=dt&redirected=1&vjk=853eb34fa7cd43f6 Springboot is Java

[delicate bane]

[buoyant seal]

<@&831776746206265384> !rule 5 6, the post appears in multiple channels. It is at least one bot attack #web-development message

[fervent geyser]

what would be some great websites to browse web developer jobs
especially work from home jobs

[shadow moss]

any of existing job sites?

you got a job before I assume so same place you got those jobs

[lyric needle]

help me 😦 develop a program that contains a tuple for 10 names entered so that it is not repeated and then randomly prints one of those 10 names

[brave cargo]

Should I learn Web Design when I want to go into CyberSecurity?

[gilded valley]

@lyric needle read #❓｜how-to-get-help. This is not the right channel

[lyric needle]

thanks

[gilded valley]

it won't hurt, but it's not exactly a key requirement

[vapid jay]

thanks man, is Node a framework?

[fervent geyser]

nop im 19

[vapid jay]

oh wow, that's quite interesting to see

[fervent geyser]

these two fields are not that relevant so..

[vapid jay]

oh true, I could see that Python is commonly used in this area

[vapid jay]

why not?

[shadow moss]

It’s harder to find Jr Dev jobs remote. To do remote well, you need some experience.

[shadow moss]

Data science and Machine Learning jobs heavily prefer a degree

[hearty island]

man i'm dumb. missed an interview. i mean even though i have an internship, i still shouldn't have missed it. welp.

thought it started at 10:30 instead of 10:00

[shadow moss]

Yea, that’s bad

[hearty island]

pretty upset about it but at least i’m not out in the cold with no internships

[astral ermine]

Hi everyone. I applied for a data scientist 1 job where in the JD they just mentioned Python, SQL, and basic ML.
They emailed me back outlining the interview process and will assess my skills in PySpark. I've held off learning the big data frameworks because they can change from company to company. Should I try and pick-up PySpark for the interview?

I think I'll try picking it up. Nothing to lose honestly.

[stoic timber]

I'd do that too, it's not always easy to pass the 1st step with interviews so it's worth a shot 🙂

[gilded valley]

you should also mention that you didn't know it before today

[peak halo]

I would be honest that you don't have prior experience with it (and if they're going to do an assessment, I guess they're going to figure that out anyway), but if you have prior experience with distributed computation (like with dask), I think it would be straightforward enough to learn the apache ecosystem.

fwiw, a project at my company switched from pyspark to dask 😛

[gilded valley]

Dask definitely seems to be taking over a lot of the work that pyspark currently gets used for

[peak halo]

I think that for teams that prefer Python, there just isn't any reason to lock oneself into the apache ecosystem if you can have all your python stuff and do distributed things with dask.

isn't scala the preferred language for all that?

[vapid jay]

for apache spark?

not anymore

pyspark used to be buggy and poorly supported but now it's most peoples first choice

scala is technically better and faster but most people don't "know" scala

[gilded valley]

Scala is still largely a better choice - the Spark API you get in Scala is a superset of the API you get in Python

The problem is that no one wants to learn Scala, they kind of missed the boat and Python has dominated on the data science side, and Kotlin has dominated on the like-java-but-better side. One of the biggest issues was that they dragged out the release of Scala 3 for years meaning that it took too long to get adopted.

This makes me sad because Scala as a software development language is solid, on par with Kotlin, and Scala/Spark as a data wrangling language is way nicer than Python

[vapid jay]

CS degree usually?

[vapid jay]

Yes....

[vapid jay]

as far as I know nobody will hire you without an appropriate degree in these

[mortal latch]

okay, so I need some advice. there is a game that is opensource and a team of volunteers on this project. its mostly python which is good for me, but as I try to see on github what I can work on to learn gamedev, I realize it is way above my skill level to understand anything or contribute. what do I do to close that skill gap? I contacted them and told them im relatively new and they said figure out the AI attack pattern and I was like "you kidding me? I have no clue what to do"

[vapid jay]

what is the game can you link the github?

[mortal latch]

free orion.

[vapid jay]

and it makes perfect sense because you have to actual math statistics background to perform in this field so

[mortal latch]

links are not allow apparently

[vapid jay]

alright ill check it out

[regal veldt]

Can someone tell me that starting flutter development with python ok?

[shadow moss]

Something STEM usually, doesn’t have to be CS

[mortal latch]

its github then forward slash freeorion forward slash freeorion

[vapid jay]

I am to apply for backend stuff but I am quite undecided if I should stick with Python or go for Java, JavaScript...

wdym by "go for"?

JS is dominant in backend as well nowadays but there is still a lot of companies who hire Django devs etc

[vapid jay]

When a business is hiring software developers, what would direct them towards Python programmers?

[buoyant seal]

One out of three options at least

1. they need data science / machine learning
2. they need DevOps engineer. Python is nice glue
3. they need backend development, in a rich ecosystem of ready solutions with rapid development speed for low cost with good readability just because of language

[vapid jay]

to focus more on JS

[smoky quest]

Either of them are great, although javascript is more for the frontend.
If you are on your first language, I would recommend to go deeper with it before changing and getting distracted. For instance making sure you understand most of the skills on https://roadmap.sh/backend

[frozen wing]

Hi

Then I would like to ask why wouldn't they go to python?

and choose something like JS instead

[smoky quest]

not all the decisions are purely technical. It may happen they already have some code in javascript, their tooling is in javascript or that was the first thing that came up on google.

[frozen wing]

Do companies really chose stacks without benchmarking

I mean I would understand if they already had some JS engineers and didn't want to hire new ppl for backend

But aside from that case

[agile hawk]

I’m currently heading into my second year of university and I’m taking business however I have taken some introductory programming classes in python and have been thinking about majoring in mis/btm, would that be a valid route if I’m looking to go the information security or systems analyst route ?

[smoky quest]

See how opinionated are the folks on discord? It's the same in real life :p

[buoyant seal]

They would not want to go python because, it is not strongly typized language. It is not possible to declare variables being strickly int, float, strings and etc. They are all dynamic here. Makes it bad for high precision tools / really highly scaled code base size
They would not want to go python because it is around 30 times slower than any other language, javascript included.
They would not want to go python if they don't have free people already available in it

[buoyant seal]

They could be choosing JS, because chance to encounter person knowing JS backend, is extremely high. The most poularily used language in web dev
They could be choosing JS just because they have free people with skills available in it, and they wish cheap development as well
It is not something too sensetive for having good code, and they could be even satisfied with frontend.... low skilled person who learned barely acceptable minimum to make something in backend. Or they could be not knowing how strongly it would affect their end result xD
And JS has the richest ecosystem of already available solutions as well. Everything is made for it
If they need highly interactive frontend with client side state management without reloading page each time in browser, they will go for JS only, they are no alternatives

[buoyant seal]

If they wish something like financial tool, or something like high precision stuff / super high load stuff, they would be better going probably Java or Golang
Java has wider ecosystem, much more devs into it. As a drawback really CPU/RAM hungry for its java machine. Long time to start up / test application
Golang is really young language, minor ecosystem, really low amount of devs in it. It is not having minuses of Java regarding CPU/RAM stuff. Best to make DevOps instruments / infrastructure tools, due for them being small one file binaries including everything needed to run it. Higher cost to make stuff with it at least 1.5x times though

Oh yeah, and they could be sticking to one language just to keep same language / less complexity to support something if it is possible to avoid multi language usage
To have less variety of necessary devs. So if they already have multiple stuff in some language, they could be just going with it further
if it is machine learning project, a whole project is highly likely going to be stuck in python because of it. Not really necessary in the life of microservices though
Microservice architecture with REST APIs and gRCP connections allows easily using multi language setups, one part can be in one language, another in another language
REST JSON, and gRCP stuff will make data travelled between different backend languages/applications without problems

Microservices are de facto obligatory in any big enough backend product, in order to have higher precision horizontal scaling, and just easier code growth, due to having natural code layer isolations by having stuff in different repositories. But, microservices introduce a wormhole (WORMHOLE!!!) of new problems and higher multiple tech is necessary to use in order to fight their complexity and challenges in infrastructure. So they have to be chosen, when trully sure, or making architecture decision which would allow easily having monolith splitted later (Porto architecture design allows it https://github.com/Mahmoudz/Porto )

[delicate bane]

companies do all sorts of things. today's meetings expanded my worldview of technical debt

[vapid jay]

How should one go about creating final year project?

[gilded valley]

It's not really related to careers, you're better off asking in OT or #python-discussion

[vapid jay]

Ok

[frozen wing]

Thank you for your detailed answer
I always thought that Python was able to handle high loads
Also since I watched "GOTO 2015 Spotify microservice architecture video" I thought that microservices were just the standard in the industry, but after my internship I discovered how "dirty and disgusting" code might be

[buoyant seal]

Python can handle high loads. It gives message queues, you can also use caching, and etc. Most of high load stuck is due to internet connection delays with which python handles perfectly with its async approach. Python is bad in performance in local only script runs with high CPU load intensity

[whole wasp]

This is weird my old company hired me again with the same recruiter but now it’s a 3 month contract but the recruiter is making me sign an NDA this time around and last time they didn’t

[summer roost]

Performance is very low on my list of concerns, generally. Most stuff doesn't need to be that fast, and computers are cheaper than developers.

[frozen wing]

I don't mean by benchmarking only comparing "run speed"
But also other key points in making your decision (like cost of development, speed of delivery, whether 3rd party solutions are available etc)

[summer roost]

Ah. I wouldn't call those other things "benchmarking", but then yeah, I agree.

[buoyant seal]

Usually the biggest issue is also in code architecture of a project. on architecture depends how easy to read. how easy to write new code of a project next, how easy to test it. Python is kind of perfect to iterate through your architecture much faster (like at least 2x faster than C++ for example), which gives you advantage to get more maturely developed project / optimized in everything related to its architecture, which can give even speed performance faster than if u used faster performant language

And then if it is mature project, there could be an option to refactorize it to something else later if necessary xD Replacing microservices one by one.

refactorizations of such global scale are money costy thing to do though, (even if code is grouped into micrserovices) so it would be really highly justified to be done. As an option refactorized could be only bottleneck specific microservice 🙂

[summer roost]

What's weird about that? An old company taking you back isn't surprising if you left on decent terms. Being asked to sign an NDA isn't surprising, that's pretty typical for tech jobs.

[whole wasp]

But it’s a recruiting company that’s asking me to sign and they didn’t ask me last time

[buoyant seal]

i just ignored recruiting company NDAs requests to sign smth. It is completely sus and not necessary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukTnyciSDwk
it worked without it quite fine

May be it could be a hidden IQ test, if you sign NDA with recruiting agency at their request without any questions, then you are an idiot not worthy to be processed further xD

[summer roost]

It's not a weird thing to be asked to agree to. If the only thing you think it weird is that in the past they didn't ask people to sign NDAs and now they do, that doesn't sound weird to me.

[whole wasp]

Ur saying not to sign it? The problem is it’s part of the onboarding link and the NDA is in the middle so I can’t even move forward without signing it.

I also don’t understand some clauses etc like it has this one

[buoyant seal]

Ergh. I would carefully read and decide depending on what kind of recruiting agency it is. If they are trully getting to have you hired to good company in, and there is no option to go without it after i asked verifying questions, i could probably sign,
if they are just outstuffing company in disguise, i would ignore them at current moment, due to my dislike of outstuffing companies.

[summer roost]

IANAL, but severability clauses are a standard thing in contracts. If a contract doesn't have a severability clause and some portion of that contract is found to be unenforceable (illegal in your state, or something like that) then the entire contract could be declared unenforceable. A severability clause changes that, to say that if some portion can't be enforced, all of the other portions that can be enforced will be.

[whole wasp]

I am so confused. I might have a lawyer read it and explain it to me before I sign. It’s an it consulting firm. One thing I have to make sure is there isn’t something in there were I can’t work for other it companies or jobs. The other thing is as I said it’s only a 3 month contract so I’m not sure why they are making me sign it for that short amount of time and I think I read something in there where it says the contract still stays in effect after I leave. Let me find that. I’m suppose to start this Monday so idk what to do about this NDA if they ask, I’ll tell them I need more time?

[summer roost]

you should probably just sign it.

[buoyant seal]

why not to tell freely that NDA is your concern? Discuss it, and ask questions why. Being open resolves issues.

[summer roost]

they want an assurance that you won't tell other people about secret stuff you learned while working there, even after you quit. Unless you plan to tell other people about secret stuff you learned while working there, there's no reason not to sign it.

I'm not really understanding your concern.

[vapid jay]

i wan't to take the black path maybe gray

will i get arrested?

kidding have a G'day

[whole wasp]

Ya but what if they say it’s a requirement foe the job

[delicate bane]

that is normal

[whole wasp]

also if u guys want to read it I can just post the NDA here it’s 3-4 pages and if u guys think it’s fine to sign I’ll be more assured

[summer roost]

if you're, like, morally opposed to the idea of agreeing to not talk about secret stuff, then you can always choose not to sign it, and only accept jobs that don't require NDAs. That will likely limit the number of positions available to you by a lot.

[buoyant seal]

tbh it is normal indeed. I signed NDA as well for previous job
NDA / intellectual property of stuff is necessary being transfered from your owrk to them usually
I would worry about having it formulated in the way that if it forbids open source / second work stuff or not, or anything similar
if it is not going outside of your current job, and it is not having any other dubious things like that, then it is fine

[summer roost]

I would worry about having it formulated in the way that if it forbids open source / second work stuff or not
That's not something an NDA would do - you might sign other things that forbid you from moonlighting, but an NDA would not forbid you from moonlighting

is there any particular section that concerns you?

I've skimmed it a bit and don't see anything surprising.

[wispy terrace]

How’re you guys doing!?
Seems like y’all are professionals. Do you guys recommend Udemy? Buy small courses and get certs like that?

[novel ivy]

what do u want to study and what is your goal

[delicate bane]

i dont really recommend udemy unless there is a specific course/material or instructor you want to learn from. start with youtube if you have more general learning goals

[delicate bane]

but you should define some goals, yes. especially if it pertains to learning in order to obtain a job (hence this channel topic)

[whole wasp]

What does this mean? Like this is the it recruiting company. Who are the rest they mention and is the company I’m actually working for in there?

[summer roost]

no, it's the parent company of the recruiting company (if any), or a division of the recruiting company, or another company that buys the recruiting company, etc

it's basically saying that changes to the corporate structure of the company don't change your agreement.

[serene kindle]

the legal docs look normal

[whole wasp]

What about 2 and 5?

Why would those matter for the recruiting company I don’t think they should belong there

[smoky quest]

They are standard boilerplate.

The non-compete is a bit far reaching though

[whole wasp]

Where is that? I thought there wasn’t one

[smoky quest]

middle of 5. where it says access cannot be used for preparing to compete. It's a bit broader than what I am used to

[whole wasp]

Ty. I am prolly gonna have to hire a lawyer to go over this

[summer roost]

In that case, I'd ask the lawyer's opinion on the last sentence in 9 as well.

[whole wasp]

Isnt that good since I don’t have to pay their fees

Anything else that’s concerning

I wonder if they will have an NCA to sign after this but that doesn’t make sense and idk why it isn’t in the same doc

[whole wasp]

I still can’t find this can you tell me what the sentence starts with

My state says this”The new law prohibits non-compete agreements for employees earning $75,000 per year or less.” Since I make less than that isn’t the entire NDA invalid or is it talking about something else.

[peak halo]

You're not allowed to ask for definitive legal advice here, so keep that in mind.

[summer roost]

"Employee acknowledges that Employee's authorization to access Company computer systems is limited and that access or use of such systems to compete or to prepare to compete is unauthorized access and is strictly prohibited."

[whole wasp]

If I’m only doing one job how would this even apply?

[summer roost]

you can't, say, use the recruiting company's computers to download a list of all the other companies they work with, then quit and start calling all of those companies offering your services

[summer roost]

Since I make less than that isn’t the entire NDA invalid
No, even if that makes the part about "competing" invalid (and I'm not sure that it would), the rest of the NDA would still be valid because of the severability clause (section 7)

[celest kite]

Like if you know the private rate your company charges for something and quit and undercut the rate

[summer roost]

I bet they're using the same NDA for the recruiters who work for them as for the developers. It'd explain why section 5 talks about prospect lists, and would explain some of the wording about competing.

since developers would never typically come into contact with prospect lists.

[whole wasp]

In general do u guys think I should just sign this or still have a lawyer review it? Someone mentioned legalzoom is cheaper. Also it’s weird that they have the states listed in there that is not where the company is at, idk why they did that. Do certain states have stricter employment lawyer such as Florida and California. What does blank county mean? Was that a typo

[whole wasp]

I still don’t understand how an it recruiting company has some clauses such as those

[summer roost]

hah, I thought that was you redacting something. That does look like something they forgot to fill in. That's embarrassing 😆

[summer roost]

Do certain states have stricter employment lawyer such as Florida and California.
Yes. Presumably something about following Florida's laws on this is beneficial to them.

I think this seems reasonable to sign, but if you're nervous about it, having a lawyer check it over shouldn't cost much and could give you peace of mind.

[whole wasp]

How do I find out what that is?

[summer roost]

that's something the lawyer would likely know.

and it's unlikely that anyone who isn't an employment attorney would know why Florida is better for the company in this case.

[whole wasp]

Feel like they made this NDA just for me then? Also, if that’s a typo it only invalidates that clause if at all?

[summer roost]

yes, the severability clause means that if that typo invalidates anything, it would only invalidate section 13.

Feel like they made this NDA just for me then?
I think there's no chance that's the case. In fact, I specifically said above that I think they're making their developers and their recruiters sign the same NDA, which is why some of the language seems to be about things that recruiters or sales people would come into contact with and developers usually wouldn't.

[whole wasp]

So I shouldn’t bring up that typo

[summer roost]

you definitely can - in fact, I probably would. It's fine to say "Section 13 references 'BLANK COUNTY'. What county should that say?"

[whole wasp]

But u just said if I don’t it invalidates it. that means can’t I do it in any county?

[summer roost]

I said "if that typo invalidates anything"

I don't know if it does, or what it does if it does.

They might throw out the entirety of section 13, or they might choose a random Florida county, or something.

[whole wasp]

Random one wouldn’t be fair

Unless blank is a placeholder for random and it was on purpose?

[summer roost]

seems quite unlikely to me. That looks like a mistake to me. If you ask them if it was a mistake, they'll tell you.

they'll either say "yes" and give you a corrected document to sign, or they'll say "no" and you can ask a lawyer why the company says the agreement should be interpreted according to the laws of "BLANK COUNTY" when there is no such place.

[whole wasp]

The clause that said I can consult an attorney etc if I am recommended to change or ask about any terms will they actually change it for me? Also, is it a good idea to have this NDA reviewed by someone from their company as well where they can explain me what they mean by in the clauses so I can compare it to what my lawyer says

[summer roost]

will they actually change it for me?
Possibly.
Also, is it a good idea to have this NDA reviewed by someone from their company as well where they can explain me what they mean by in the clauses so I can compare it to what my lawyer says
No, I can't see any benefit to doing that.

[whole wasp]

I did it before with my previous company and I felt like the person was honest

since I’m only on a 3 month contract and say I join the actually company full time then I will have to sign their NDA. Could I just tell the recruiting company since that will most likely happen I don’t know if it’s worth signing for just 3 months and nothing major is even gonna happen in that time for the clauses to even matter

[summer roost]

you can say that. They probably won't hire you if you do.

They're saying "Promise you won't steal secrets from me". You can say "I don't know that it's worth promising that since it's just 3 months and obviously I won't steal from you", but that will be, at best, very suspicious.

[whole wasp]

They have no secrets which is what I’m saying from the beginning. My last company I just quit when they asked me to sign their NDA months in. Idk why they would be sus cuz idc about stealing anything or disclosing anything. Paying their attorney fees in any matter was enough for me not to sign it so idk why they would be mad at me for that. They did say they wouldn’t sue me but how could I trust them years down if something did happen

[graceful mason]

I don't understand why you keep being so against signing an NDA.... you're unlikely to have a solid career in any field where you develop anything if you refuse to sign any NDAs

[summer roost]

They have no secrets which is what I’m saying from the beginning.
No, you haven't, and yes, they do.

[whole wasp]

What secrets?

[smoky quest]

secrets aren't about the secret to the coke recipe from coca cola. It's in general more mundane items.

[summer roost]

how much they pay each of their employees, for instance.

how much each of their contracts is worth.

[whole wasp]

Idk that

[summer roost]

of course not

it's a secret

[smoky quest]

that's the point 😉

For instance, the source code of a proprietary software could be counted as one of the secret. They would be unhappy if you were to start sharing it

[whole wasp]

But I don’t know them to disclose it

[summer roost]

but you might learn it when you work for them

[smoky quest]

as someone working there, you may get to see and hear a lot of different information that you don't have access to right now because you haven't signed the NDA

[summer roost]

this isn't an agreement that you won't tell things that you already know about the company, this is an agreement that if you learn secrets while working for them, you won't share them.

[whole wasp]

When I was working for them I didn’t and idk why it would change now, all I did was submit my time sheet and got paid

[summer roost]

my best guess is that you signed an NDA for them in the past and just don't remember, because it's an incredibly mundane thing to do that nearly every job requires, and you probably didn't think much about it at the time.

but if you're right that you didn't, the most likely explanation is that they realized they hadn't been asking people to sign NDAs, and they corrected that mistake in between when you first worked for them and now.

[ivory sluice]

what is your concern, exactly, about signing NDAs?

[whole wasp]

No I’m serious I didn’t as I got all the documents in an email and I went back and checked and it wasn’t there

[whole wasp]

When I read them it just sounds scary and one sided and benefiting the company. And when it says it’s important and serious to consult an attorney before u sign it just makes me more scared that I should understand what it says

[graceful mason]

It is 100% one sided and benefitting the company - it has no reason to benefit you
It is specifically in place to protect the company from you

[summer roost]

It's not particularly scary, though. It mostly covers things that would be illegal anyway - or at the very least, unethical.

[whole wasp]

Do u mean the clauses are illegal/unethical or the fact that it’s protecting the company from those activities that I may do?

[whole wasp]

I understand this but none of those clauses other than returning the equipment would really apply to me. I’m not that important or high level or will know anything anyways and I can prove this by me working with them last time where nothing happened at all

[ivory sluice]

the part that benefits you is the offer letter which dictates your compensation. the NDA is to protect the company, not you. so yes it is one sided.

[coarse crag]

godlygeek meant that the NDA is protecting the company from illegal activities that you "might" do.

[whole wasp]

Regarding my last company I just quit when they asked me to sign cuz of the attorney fee clause was one of them, would they be mad at me or it’s my choice if I want to sign or not and i don’t want them to think I think badly of them or that I’m disclosing secrets or anything.

[ivory sluice]

from the company's perspective, why wouldn't they just have all their employees sign NDAs when onboarding them? there is little to no benefit for them to select which employees sign and which do not. if anything that increases risk for them and is more work to do so.

[whole wasp]

Unless they weren’t having anyone sign before

[ivory sluice]

I disagree. companies grow up and their policies mature

[coarse crag]

i don't think it matters that you are an important person or not, if you are working for them, you will need their data, and there is a possibility whether intentionally or unintentionally you might do illegal activities with their data.

[summer roost]

The NDA is a promise that you won't find out company secrets and tell them to people. Telling people certain company secrets would have been illegal even without the NDA, and using secrets against your employer is unethical regardless of whether it's illegal.

[ivory sluice]

my employer did not bother with NDAs 5 years ago, but that is not the case now.

[summer roost]

The NDA is mostly you just promising to do things that ethical people wouldn't do anyway.

[whole wasp]

I realized I had signed an NDA this year for one of the companies I was working for without even reading it

[summer roost]

exactly. 🙂

would they be mad at me or it’s my choice if I want to sign or not
It's always your choice whether to enter an agreement or not. They won't be mad at you. They will probably rescind the job offer, though.

[coarse crag]

in this era, i would find it weird if a company i'm gonna work in doesn't tell me to sign an NDA tbh.

[whole wasp]

It was called Confidentiality, Proprietary Rights & Non-Solicitation Agreement

Tbh if someone can read the NDA that I signed and maybe find out that it was worse/same than this one then I basically have my answer that I can sign this one.

[whole wasp]

In my last case they asked me 3 months in

[summer roost]

I remember.

[whole wasp]

The one I signed doesn’t have anything about paying for anyone’s attorney fees

[whole wasp]

I feel like I should have signed that now but it’s too late hopefully they aren’t mad at me tho

[summer roost]

Indeed, most people were suggesting that you should sign it at the time. But yes, it's too late now.

[delicate bane]

do you guys ever feel like you have too much independence at work, especially for salaried positions

i guess its just in my personality to lean towards more structure vs. less structure

[whole wasp]

Hopefully I didn’t make any enemies right? I am worried about that as they prolly are sus. I was just confused on how things happened and particularly I didn’t like the clause about paying their attorney fees tbh so I feel like I had a reason not to sign it either.

There was also a clause I remember that said if I break a term it renews the length for another x amount of time so if I was in 11th month and broke it I would have another 12 months to go which I thought was a clause that might make me hesitant

Tbh I need money and to get this job I’ll have no choice but to sign it so I should prolly save my self lawyer fee of going over this

And u guys kind of analyzed it well and seem like there’s nothing of concern

[frosty terrace]

not sure if this is a stupid question, but if I had a remote job, do I put that on my resume? Kinda figure that someone who did remote would be better hire than someone who never did?

[whole wasp]

I just hope there isn’t another doc to sign after this such as a full NCA or something else

[ivory sluice]

there's definitely a balance to be struck. the more comfortable I am with my task the more freedom I want to do it my way and the less I welcome constant check-ins and interruptions. but if I am learning something new I'll take all the structure I can get

[delicate bane]

thats a good point. i think im similar, but i do tend to bias towards structure only bc i know if i dont, i end up wasting a lot of time

but ill try to relax some of my stuff and strike that balance

[frosty terrace]

tips anyone?

[summer roost]

you're asking whether you should emphasize that the work was done remotely?

[frosty terrace]

yeah, because i want to find more remote work, so maybe if I've already done it, it's better than someone who's never done it?

[summer roost]

seems reasonable if you're looking for remote work, yeah.

[frosty terrace]

What's with all the different job titles.. data analyst, pricing analyst, financial analyst, business analyst... they all pretty much have similar requirements for skills

[whole wasp]

Anyone read the NDA I signed?

[delicate bane]

the difference is usually the domain, which can drastically change what the actual job is like vs. the requirements listed

[whole wasp]

Why do NDA’s say to consult a lawyer cuz no one ever does right

[ivory sluice]

I think we've exhausted the NDA discussion

[frosty terrace]

Should I just apply to all and hope for the best? Financial analyst seems heavily common

[delicate bane]

take a look at this video for some basic understanding first. this might help you build a mental model https://youtu.be/PEc29sRZoTM

obviously take everything on the internet with a grain of salt, but i feel like alex the analyst gave a good perspective on some of the general differences between these types of roles

[delicate bane]

honestly, i think it will depend on whether you think you will like the domain or not

[frosty terrace]

what you mean by domain?

[delicate bane]

you know how you can apply data analysis skills to different areas? the domain itself can drastically change your job duties (i.e. finance, marketing, healthcare, etc.)

even though the job requirements listed might be similar

the way companies create these job requirements can be...lets just say, not always the best

💀

[frosty terrace]

i just need a way of moving up, going from pricing analyst to software developer, seems... unachievable

and I'm tired of using just Excel professionally, I want to grow

[delicate bane]

i think its possible if you move internally, no?

or at least easier.

[frosty terrace]

internally they use some ancient programming language I never heard of. I really don't want to waste my time on old coding languages. Forget what it was called, but remember checking and it wasn't modern, not even the slightest

[delicate bane]

oh no i meant at your new job

[summer roost]

old languages sometimes pay very well! Though there's a lot of lock in, too.

[frosty terrace]

yeah the issue is that isn't a lot of pricing analyst jobs now, all I see is financial analysts

so im just wondering what is my next best step to work my way up

[smoky quest]

Work on more meaningful projects. Your current projects wouldn't get any attention.
(and also why you do not get calls back)

[frosty terrace]

i don't have the free time to develop anything anymore

and im not going to develop anything just to flatter someone to give me a 30k junior job either, that's not why I learned programming

[ivory sluice]

hm why do you see this as flattery?

it doesn't flatter someone else to do a project that demonstrates your skillset

[smoky quest]

That's the other way around though.
Companies get hundreds of applicants for each job. They won't waste time if someone can't show they are at least on par with the crowd

[frosty terrace]

not spending months on something for free, doing something I have absolutely no interest in making, just to show potential, which may or may not get recognition for a low paying job

[smoky quest]

so why would someone call you back then?

[frosty terrace]

i think you're trolling at this point if you haven't realized that I don't care about getting a software job

[vapid jay]

i am curious, what makes you learn programming?

[frosty terrace]

I wanted to be a game dev

[smoky quest]

Got it! Good luck in not looking for a software job by asking questions about software jobs on #career-advice in a programming discord

[frosty terrace]

Why you so mad? I literally asking about other analyst jobs for a reason. You seem like you have a sadistic personality, whats up with you?

[vapid jay]

and how is it going

[delicate bane]

if you think you can get into learning some finance, i dont see an issue either

[frosty terrace]

Everyone told me I can't do it because it's impossible to do, to end up doing any junior programming job.

[vapid jay]

well i have no clue about game jobs, but sure there’s something out there, why do people say it’s impossible?

[frosty terrace]

that it's heavily saturated and filled with higher level devs

[ivory sluice]

@frosty terrace right now you just seem to be complaining about not wanting to put in the required work to make you a better candidate. what exactly are you aiming for at the moment?

and are you currently employed?

[frosty terrace]

Work = time. I don't have time ATM. I need to find a new job ASAP, there is no time for school, certificates, making programs, or any of that. Some people think like time is easy to come by. I don't have that luxury atm.

[ivory sluice]

what kinds of positions are within your reach without investing extra time. do you know?

[frosty terrace]

That's why I was asking about different analyst jobs

[ivory sluice]

because that's valid. if you need income you need income. that's priority

are you currently employed?

[frosty terrace]

no, company got bought out

[ivory sluice]

so if you cannot afford time, you should be applying to jobs you are already qualified for.

*and likely to get hired for

[frosty terrace]

Yeah, I've been doing that, but I want to widen my job search to other positions too.

[ivory sluice]

I think in your situation you need to narrow your target and increase your chances of getting hired and making income. if you're not getting callbacks on these "reach" positions then maybe you should consider "settling" temporarily for a job better within reach. if that means more Excel spreadsheets then so be it.

elevating your skillset can always be done later. right now you don't seem to have the luxury and be in the headspace to do that

[whole wasp]

What’s the worst that happens if u break an NDA unintentionally. Just lawsuit? In some cases I was reading jail time now that is scary

[ivory sluice]

ask your lawyer. this conversation is 3 steps past over.

if you continue to put us in positions of answering legal questions that you should be asking to a lawyer, I will ban you. you seem to have a lot of uncertainty and anxiety over some legal aspects of the employment process, and this is not the place to get assurances.

are we clear @whole wasp?

[delicate bane]

this is a solid approach and what i would do as well

[ivory sluice]

to add to that, if you want some anecdotal hope, there are growth opportunities both in regards to title & pay within the non-software dev space as well. that includes analyst positions. if you enter an organization, do what is asked of you well, demonstrate your value in key projects and rub shoulders with the right people and make the right impression, that will pay off.

or in your case, once you have stable work and income your weekends and weeknights should become opportunities to really focus on leveraging what you currently know in projects recommended by others here that demonstrate a higher level skillset that might potentially bring you to the "next level" (since changing companies should result in higher pay bumps than staying at the same company forever)

and using python to automate clerical work, or analytics work is a very feasible task that could potentially differentiate you from your peers, depending on the environment. (idk, maybe these days it's not that impressive but it sure as heck impressed the people I reported to)

[frosty terrace]

I'm hoping the difficulty is just the job market right now, no one seems to be hiring, I do have some interviews coming up, so hopefully. But yeah... it's nice to program and learn how to do it, but I really have no interest in it besides making games or automating my work.

[trim tangle]

Is it worth starting to learn python if you want a career in software development? Have been learning the past few days seems cool and I like it but I want to eventually be able to get a remote job in this, by the way I am in the USA and recent college grad with a liberal arts degree.

Always been interested in coding, learned some HTML and CSS a while back

[smoky quest]

python is very popular in software development and thus worth learning

[shell quiver]

Hey y’all i’m having a very hard time finding a job. I’m 19, started learning python when I was 13 (only learned as much as I could understand) and I’d say I’m a rather advanced programmer. When taking online assessments I usually fall within the top 85-90% of people. I have a lot of experience using Selenium WebDriver, Requests, developing Flask Restful APIs, and general Python scripting. I have moderate experience in Django (still using tutorials to understand it better). I also went through the Coding Dojo for their Data Analysis program. I interview fairly well but I’m having a hard time getting any interviews. I’d love some advice/tips/tricks you guys used when getting your first jobs. I’m working on getting a CS degree (took a year off but I’m going back in January and have over a year completed)

I manage my own homelab server (ProxMox OS, multiple ubuntu instances, managed windows server for a bit, experience in Linux, Mac, and Windows) in which I’ve needed to do multiple software/hardware repairs. I’ve also been freelancing but it only brings in about $500/week and to cover my bills I need to make $21/hr. I am urgently looking for a position that makes this wage (or slightly under as I can continue to freelance)

Please tag me if you respond! I’m off Discord for the night.

[smoky quest]

What type of job are you interested in?

(just finished reading the paragraph)

[shell quiver]

I’m interested in having a job in which I can actually learn and utilize my developer skills, If I’m doing that I’ll be happy. In order to not be super vague though anything that lies in the general area of: Data Science, Web Scraping/Data Mining, IT Positions, General Developer, etc.

[smoky quest]

Part time CS jobs for students is more difficult to find but they do exist. It also happens for companies to continue employ part time a student after their internship

[shell quiver]

I’m 1000% open and applying for full-time work.

[smoky quest]

how can you do full time work and school?

[shell quiver]

I’ll work 12 hour days, go to school for 6, and sleep the rest at this point. Is part time going to be easier to fill?

Ive had full time work and school schedules before. For me its manageable.

[smoky quest]

• That's not healthy
• I not sure how you can handle it given the meetings would intersect with school hours
• I wouldn't trust any company hiring a student full time

I would also recommend to give yourself some time to explore stuff, have side projects and learn more rather than aim for a full time job now. also enjoy the student life

[shell quiver]

It’s not healthy for some people. I cannot do nothing. If I have leisure time I fill it with work or research. I know that isn’t common to hear but my passion and hobbies lie in programming

[smoky quest]

You aren't the only one whose passion and hobbies line in CS and programming 😉

[shell quiver]

I can’t. Work ATM comes before school. It isn’t a choice for me.

[summer roost]

It's not that uncommon to hear, actually, but people who say that often wind up burning out.

[smoky quest]

why not?

[shell quiver]

Family and financial situation. Got a job at $20/hr at 17. Brother and I got a place (his wifes family owns it) and theyre kicking me out cause they want the place to themselves. I got laid off in march due to the housing market, I have $40k in debt since I had to finance a car to commute to the job that laid me off, plus student loans. I move in on the 16th to a new house and my mom agreed to help me for a couple months. After that I better be back on my feet.

[shell quiver]

To specify, the uncommon part is that I don’t enjoy leisure time and would rather work

[summer roost]

That's not that uncommon. Lots of coders love it, and spend their free time doing very similar stuff to their work time and school time. That's exactly what leads to burnout.

[shell quiver]

I understand I got myself into this, but unfortunately its where I am and I have to work from it.

[smoky quest]

yeah sounds like you got it rough.
That said, it still sounds untenable to do both at the same time and to prioritize work over school.

Not sure how much room you have on the student loan side. But your job after graduation will be able to facilitate a lot of these expenses

[shell quiver]

Id love to work full time and go to school full time, but if a job comes up and it requires I put school off I’ll knock it down to asynchronous part time classes

[smoky quest]

also, I am not trying to pry in your life, but rather than renting a house, renting a room is also a way to reduce expenses

[smoky quest]

I would suggest to see school as an investment. Without school, employers will lowball you hard just because you don't have a degree

[shell quiver]

With some additional facts to my current situation, in my area, it’s not really a viable option. I’ve looked into it before apartments.

[shell quiver]

Well between now and then I have now. I have to pay my bills and make ends meet.

Trust me, if it was an option, I’d take out student loans, get a part time job, get some roommates graduate with a degree and get a job. Not quite on my plate atm. I appreciate y’alls concern but I know I’m capable of the workload (had full time job from 17-19, freelanced, and was in school full time and i loved it then, miss it now). I’d appreciate advice/tips/tricks on how to stand out and be able to get a job.

and I had school full time 16-17 and part time job and I hates the free time

[elfin relic]

Hi, I am going to be a freshman at university studying computer engineering and was wondering if anyone has advice on building a resume with little experience, or just resume building in general for internships and jobs

[delicate bane]

i think the markets a bit tough atm so that just makes companies more risk adverse, so that could be a current factor as to why its difficult for you to find anything.

[gusty panther]

So, I'm a beginner programmer and wondering where to put my time. I'm interested in general SE (web development, scripting, really anything) and cyber security. But I'm wanting to really focus my studying to maximize my success in looking for a job. So, generally speaking is SE or Cybersecurity easier to get into?

Furthermore, on average, which of the two takes less time to learn in order to get a job? I know these things have lots of variables, but does cybersecurity have a lower education floor in order to get entry level jobs? Or does SE?

I know I'm going to have to work hard and study for either, just wondering which ought to (on average) take less time for entry level positions.

[peak halo]

cyber security is probably going to pay better than general-purpose software engineering, but it's going to have a higher education floor than SE.

at my company, I think AI and cybersec are two of the top-earing pay-bands.

[gusty panther]

Pay isn't particularly important to me in this stage of my life, so I'm fine with less pay generally. Mostly just want to get a job as soon as possible, so I want to very selectively target what I pursue. Basically, whatever job position in any field that uses python that has a low barrier of entry/education

Lowest, though I know it's all relative. Cybersecurity does interest me though.

[peak halo]

if you want to do programming, the type of job with the lowest barrier to entry is going to be web development.

and the larger/more prestigious the company, the less likely they would consider an applicant without formal education.

[gusty panther]

Definitely fine with not working for Google or something lol. Could be a no-name company that permits me to work remote that only pays 50k (low by SE standards, not low compared to my background). Pretty much fine with anything insofar as I can work remotely and it pays enough to technically afford life lol. Just want to get into the field as quickly as I can. Don't mind grunt work.

[peak halo]

there's never any grunt work in programming if you know how to automate it.

[gusty panther]

I guess I mostly mean non-glorious work, rather than grunt work. Stuff that people don't jump up-and-down for. Don't mind entering a less-sexy field with an entry-level position that's not considered exciting.

[terse dune]

Hey guys, do you have any tips on coding because I am pretty new to python.

[peak halo]

this is the career discussion channel; try #python-discussion

[terse dune]

Ohhh thanks @peak halo very much appreciate it 🙂

very sorry to bother you all

[gritty rivet]

Lowest bar to entry in tech is desktop support / help desk. This is how I started, the CompTIA A+ certification was enough to get my foot in the door. Starting off remote and at 50k/year is not guaranteed but not impossible either

[gusty panther]

@gritty rivet I could definitely go lower pay-wise. Only thing that matters is the remote aspect.

[delicate bane]

you could go the classic IT route of Network+, Security+, etc. afterwards as well. or you could try to pivot to software afterwards, just will be harder.

[gusty panther]

@delicate bane Perfectly acceptable. I like the idea of network and security. They interest me a lot. Would be completely fine doing an entry-level IT job that works remotely. Just not quite sure what to look for. Pay is very much not super important. Probably the only other requirement is not talking on the phone since I have a vocal defect. Can type pretty good though lol

[gritty rivet]

Here's just an example of the kind of entry level remote IT job you might aim for: https://www.indeed.com/m/viewjob?jk=849f8069b6baa517

[gritty rivet]

Ah, remote + not talking on the phone is a big ask, you're going to have to dig a lot

[gusty panther]

@gritty rivet I can talk on the phone, it just couldn't be an all-day thing. Things such as meetings are fine as they're usually only an hour long. I just can't answer a phone all day for 8 hours.

[gritty rivet]

To achieve that you'll probably need to specialize and develop more advanced skills. There are many different paths including software engineering and cyber security but it takes a lot more persistence and hard work to break in to those fields

[gusty panther]

@gritty rivet Thanks for the advice. I'll try to start looking into things. A lot to think about

[near verge]

Does anyone have experience on landing a Django job without previous experience?

[narrow ember]

Is it possible to get a programming jobs with Python only in Uk.

[vapid jay]

in my country there are jobs called Python Developer.

[peak halo]

there aren't really jobs where you're hired only on the basis of your knowledge of a specific language. you have to know how to do the kinds of things you'll be asked to do in that job.

[near ocean]

Pin in this channel with someone's experience in exactly this

[near ocean]

Its fine, shit happens, just explain and laugh and move on

I got a new phone a while back and this one time an HR person called me i accidentally swiped down instead of up and hung up the call
Then they called again and in my panic i did the same thing, just explain what happened have a little laugh at the goof and carry on

[graceful mason]

my phone completely froze and I couldn't hear any audio for my last post-interview HR call, completely missed the meeting but just emailed him the situation and a new number to call whenever he had time

[near remnant]

Yeah, the HR guy was extremely friendly

And told me its fine and should expect the offer and contract on Monday. So im really happy

[indigo olive]

I'm having a hard time finding jobs that fit my experience level. I've been programming on and off for the last eight years as a hobby but haven't finished any projects because of burnout/life.

I do have experience outside of the built-in Python library, but I wouldn't consider myself an expert outside of the basics (logic, program flow, basic datatypes,) and competent in OOP and algorithms. It would be safe to assume I know nothing outside of built-ins, but know that I know more than that

Anyone have tips for a 18 year old programmer to get a job? I do not hold any credentials such as a college degree in CS, boot camp, or online course.

[lucid vapor]

@indigo olive Please don't try to ping a large number of people.

[smoky quest]

• Go through a CS degree. That's the path with the most opportunities and least resistance
• Go through a bootcamp. There are less opportunities than with a degree and less potential for earnings but it can help fast track the situation
• Polish your resume. Feel free to post an anonymized version for feedback
• Have some projects related to the jobs you are applying for

[indigo olive]

thank you

[smoky quest]

any reason for avoiding a degree?

[indigo olive]

money

[smoky quest]

Community college and student loans are common paths when it comes to money

[indigo olive]

and my parents want me to get a job asap

[smoky quest]

damn, that's not helpful

[indigo olive]

not to mention im a game addict ngl

[smoky quest]

even more reason to get an education so you can afford more games

[wise spoke]

Anyone ever met someone in a Computer Science course that requires A-Level Maths but doesn't have do maths?
Just wondering whether I should try applying to Uni requiring maths during clearing since I myself don't do A-Level maths.

[indigo olive]

I have a pretty good math BG. I did some CCP college math last year

[wise spoke]

I regret not doing A Level maths.

[gilded valley]

there is almost no chance you get a job programming with your current skills. If you're entirely unwilling to do a degree, your best bet is to just get a job working in a supermarket or doing data entry and to study on the side.

[gilded valley]

may as well apply, it's not particularly high-cost

[indigo olive]

I have a low self esteem, but I at least have the dignity to force my way into doing something I enjoy

[delicate bane]

this is a good approach for someone starting out i believe

[wise spoke]

True.

[gilded valley]

It's not about dignity, it's about realism. The skills you describe yourself as having are not valuable to a company. The way to get employed by a company is to do something that would get you skills a company cares about.

The skills a degree gives you is pretty solid programming ability, alongside proving that you can put in hard work

[indigo olive]

What kind of road are you going for?
Basic algebra is a must regardless of profession
Calculus is good for ML
3d math is good for game design (and physics)

[indigo olive]

I know, you're right. I want to get into game dev along the road because that's really what I want to do, but in the short term, I want to get a job with Python because it's an easy language.
I'm on my way to get into college at Clark State in Ohio for CS, is that a good college for it, or do I need to move out to San Francisco?

I know more than I said above, I'm just not confident beyond a shadow of a doubt with it.

[gilded valley]

This would imply you are avoiding a degree
are you currently in community college?

[indigo olive]

not yet, still in hs

[gilded valley]

so if you're planning to go to college, the most practical thing you can do is likely to get non-tech experience. Working customer service roles is surprisingly valuable, easily attainable, and easier to fit around full time education.

[indigo olive]

12th grade in a few weeks
For example, I have worked with numpy and pytorch for a stock trading algorithm (using TDAmeritrade API)
I want to avoid college if its possible, because i dont want to make 30 bucks an hour just to bring home 10 after taxes/loans. Besides, my parents arent rich

As for customer service, I'm autistic; theres people in the fossil record that talk better than me

[gilded valley]

30$/hr is not at all a good wage for a programmer, and I don't see the relevance of the taxes - all that matters is your take-home pay

[smoky quest]

college will ensure a 6 digit salary as your first job

[gilded valley]

^ Assuming you actually graduate, which is why another important thing is to get good at studying now to make sure you don't struggle in college

[indigo olive]

I mean, at least I'd be doing better than my father : P
He wants the best for me

[gilded valley]

sure - but the taxes are irrelevant to the conversation

[indigo olive]

I haven't really had to study all that much 😛 kinda just wing it
The blessing of intellegence is also a curse in this context

[gilded valley]

if you're so intelligent, why aren't you aiming for MIT or similar on scholarships?
why are you failing to complete python projects?

[indigo olive]

im not MIT material

[gilded valley]

so it doesn't sound like your intelligence is a curse

[true harness]

many people do well in high school. many of these people do not keep doing well in college

[gilded valley]

sounds to me like you're probably roughly average in terms of college students

but without the good studying habits that many of them have - putting you at a disadvantage

[smoky quest]

Regardless of how they relate to the average student, aiming for higher will only provide more interesting problems to work on and more interesting opportunities at the end. So all the more reasons to aim higher

[gilded valley]

yeah, that's very true

[indigo olive]

My grades are not MIT material because ive been hooked to video games all my life and its catchiing up to me

[gilded valley]

If you're coasting and getting just OK grades, then there's a good chance you will flounder if you attend a decent college - getting good at studying now will prevent that

[indigo olive]

I'm a smart kid, grades just havent been a priority tbh

[smoky quest]

A huge part of the success has to do with the work people put in, not necessarily how smart they are

[gilded valley]

If you're not getting top grades now, you won't be smart enough to get through a decent college degree without trying. That means you need to be able to study, and it is unlikely that you will get good grades whilst also trying to figure out how to study properly for the first time

[smoky quest]

College is fun and interesting, but it also won't necessarily be as easy to coast as you have been able to so far

[indigo olive]

To be fair, I have been taking some college classes, like english 1111

and life gets in the way, For example, last November my cousin became a burn victim in front of me. I'm either scarred and dont know it or I'm devoid of all emotion after all the BS in my life

[vapid jay]

what do u guys thing, where do i get better paycheck c++ or python ?

[indigo olive]

I used to be the kind of kid that reminded the teacher that we had homework

@vapid jay probably c++

[smoky quest]

The main factor is the role, not the language. Either of them can pull a huge amount of money or very little (by sw standards)

[gilded valley]

ultimately it's your own life, if you think your situation or personal life means you won't be able to get a degree, that sucks but it's up to you. If you do want a degree, though, "life gets in the way" won't really make it any easier to get one

[smoky quest]

Make a list of things that could prevent you from being successful. Then you got a list of items you can work on and address or prepare for to increase your chances of success

[indigo olive]

@gilded valley I'll definitely try to get a degree in CS
and @smoky quest I already have one, with one item in it:
video games

The majority of this summer, I was spending 12 hours a day playing video games

instead of, y'know doing something with my life

[gilded valley]

Sounds like you need a therapist more than career advice then

[smoky quest]

make games, make robots, make mobile apps or 3d movies with blender. These are all great way to learn new things and having fun

[indigo olive]

Actually, I tried making a VR survival game back in freshman year at school. My family was too poor for VR equipment and the school already had a headset. I go to a STEM school and as a result, we got an hour a day to make out own businesses

Then COVID happened

[smoky quest]

start smaller.
Aiming too big from the get go would decrease your chances of success

[indigo olive]

@smoky quest Any project recommendations for Python / UE4?

[gilded valley]

Make a raytracer

[indigo olive]

physics scare me

[ripe linden]

Do you think for the next couple of months companies will hire interns?

[indigo olive]

but ill try

By raytracer do you mean DOOM-like engine or RTX raytracer?

oh wait I confused raytracer and raycaster didnt I

[gilded valley]

https://raytracing.github.io/books/RayTracingInOneWeekend.html
Work your way through this but apply the concepts to Python instead of C++

!kindling has a bunch of other suggestions if that sounds too intimidating

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[gilded valley]

Game of Life simulator, all sorts of small games (e.g checkers), a web app that gets the weather from an API and shows it in a nice format - those are three things you could all make in a weekend or less

[true harness]

game of life is a classic, also touches a bunch of things, e.g. graphics (if you choose), fun math optimizing (maybe C/rust-extensions?)

[indigo olive]

I've done some optimization stuff in SmileBASIC (its a kids programming language on the 3DS). A guy made a 3d engine utilizing sprites and I added a basic LOD system

[gilded valley]

you said you're not good at finishing projects - the advantages of the ones I listed is that they can all be done in a weekend. You can make it, forget about it, and have it exist forever as a reasonable artifact on your github

[indigo olive]

the LOD system was for a bigger project

[gilded valley]

This isn't an interview - you don't have to justify yourself. I'm just giving you suggestions that should help overcome an issue you've mentioned before

[indigo olive]

actually I lied, it was a culling thing

It wasnt anything much, either, it was just an angle-based culling algorithm

Mind you it didnt have OOP either. The models were stored as arrays of scalars

[indigo olive]

yeah, true, true. Trying to get hired on discord lmao

I think the most useful thing I implemented were fake dictionaries. Not anything useful in an OOP setting, but for BASIC, its pretty revolutionary.
They were basically parsed string arrays that held a datatype symbol at the end of the key's name, and would return the value accordingly. This included function calls and variable references(not pointers), so dictionaries could hold the reference to another dictionary, infinitely

[nova spindle]

What’s it like to be a data engineer who mainly works in python, example discord, they use discord for their backend and it is one of the main languages they want you to know.

[glad charm]

I think there are some caveats to this, although I'm still in college

[final beacon]

This is only true if you are in a big city

[wise spoke]

I'm fine with learning mathematics. It's just that I didn't pick it back when I began A-Level and didn't realise that so many Uni requires maths for CS.

[latent robin]

What opportunities do I have in ML as a mathematics major, stat minor, and learning python on the side?

[indigo olive]

computers are math machines, thus knowing math is essential

[indigo olive]

if you are learning python on the side, you are presumably self taught, correct? Well that could be an issue. You may know what you are doing , but employers typically expect a certain amount of experience in web/game/software dev formally before they will hire you, from what I can tell

[gilded valley]

This is just completely not true. Plenty of enterprise programmers don't know maths and don't want to know maths

[indigo olive]

you need to know basic algebra, at least

some people I know dont know what a variable is : D

[gilded valley]

yes, you need middle-school level maths ability - but that's not what is being discussed

[indigo olive]

boolean logic, too

[lapis wind]

yeah no...

[lucid vapor]

computers may have their roots in mathematics, but you don't need to know advanced math to do all programming

[indigo olive]

if you dont, then your program isnt turing complete : P

[lucid vapor]

i have no idea what turing completeness has to do with what i just said

[indigo olive]

it doesnt tbh

you def dont need to know calc or stats to write a program, but basic math skills are a prerequisite

[lapis wind]

I mean sure, you need to know that 1 + 1 = 2, 2 / 1 = 2

[peak halo]

turing completeness is a property of languages, not programs

[smoky quest]

This is true across the whole USA. It's even higher in hcol

[smoky quest]

Start with tetris and build your way up.
https://www.youtube.com/c/TheCodingTrain has a lot of ideas that you can take further too

[lapis wind]

not sure if you can guarantee it. Looking very lazily for some demographic this seems to come up as an average for the US overall: (ref https://www.zippia.com/software-developer-jobs/demographics/)

Glassdoor seems to agree

[smoky quest]

In the hiring and pay bands I got across my network, the 50%-ile is at ~100k

it doesn't mean that everyone is above average or at average 😉

[lapis wind]

yeah but for a junior it's almost always going to be bellow the overall avg

[smoky quest]

Pay bands are divided by levels of seniority. So when someone say the percentile for a pay band, it does imply they already take the seniority in account

So for instance, the 50%-tile for the pay band for a senior engineer would be much higher than 100k

(and obviously, that's also location dependent)

[lapis wind]

for juniors in the US Glassdoor seems to indicate around 60k

Which lines up roughly with what it is here in the UK for juniors in london

[smoky quest]

yeah no that's bs

if a junior gets hired for 65k$, that's being grossly taken advantage of

[lapis wind]

I wouldn't put it past at least 1/3rd of employeers

tbf I suspect there is a much stronger weighting towards lower pay for juniors in the standard web dev jobs (the generic c#, Js, HTML stack)

[smoky quest]

I don't need to guess, I have access to that data 😉
That said, I am not gonna force people to believe.

[rotund crest]

So I had a machine learning software dev job offer last week. I ended up negotiating an extra 5% and was going to submit my resignation at my old job today. They asked me what it would take to keep me and I basically asked for double what I was leaving them for and without hesitation they said give us time to prepare the offer.

I think it is ultimately way too risky to even consider it but I am completely stunned.

[lapis wind]

I mean has the first job given you a deadline or something?

If not I dont see a huge reason to not see what they come back with.

providing it's just a pay thing and not that the company is sucking your soul from your body and you want to give everything up and live under a rock

[peak halo]

unless they come back with a really killer counter-offer, my thinking is that you've already communicated that you want to leave, and they're not going to forget that.

also, are you currently working in ML?

[rotund crest]

Basically, I have zero ML experience and zero software dev experience. I am a hybrid applied mathematician/statistician/quant, but my title is just Risk Analyst.

[peak halo]

then surely you know what the risk would be of accepting the offer

[lapis wind]

do you want to get into software dev?

[rotund crest]

I was offered the title Machine Learning Software Dev at 99k base. They asked what it would take to keep me, I said I don't know. I know I wouldn't even consider 130k for a second. They said they would try to get HR approval at 160k base which with the extremely generous contribution matching is well over 200k

[peak halo]

if they're willing to pay you 160k, why were they not doing that already?

[rotund crest]

I think ultimately I do and I have to reject that offer, but I am just completely floored that they no hesitation was willing to push it through. He said the only hitch is that he has to contact the director of risk for a salary change of that magnitude.

I have basically no corporate experience basically. But I completely agree. He said they would need to fudge all the numbers to keep me by exaggerating my teaching experience as relevant corporate experience to get the HR matrix to allow it.

[peak halo]

if you can get the counter-offer in writing, have you considered showing that to the company you might be jumping to? idk if that's bad form or what.

(I have not changed jobs before.)

[rotund crest]

They can't afford it. I have enough insider information to know it is impossible

[peak halo]

the company that you don't currently work for wouldn't be able to match 160k, or get closer to it?

[rotund crest]

They can barely afford me as is, but I interviewed extremely strongly. Also the ML team lead is the son of the late professor that taught me statistics. So I had an unusually strong interview

It would be a bridge to something more faang like eventually. I only got one associate ML offer in 2 years of applications and suddenly this one. My current job I am essentially an excel monkey.

[smoky quest]

Something is fishy. Either you were massively underpaid, or your next offer is massively underpaying you

[lapis wind]

Ah Excel don't miss that piece of shit

The macros were just, not fun

[rotund crest]

I think my current job has no idea how little value I am producing and my current offer is fair.

For that reason I don't think I can accept whatever they put at the table because the pressure will be on and it will be impossible to meet expectations

[near ocean]

I dont think thats true

[lapis wind]

That's definitely a low avg, but that's only sampling 128 salaries

[near ocean]

UK tech salaries are infamously shit

[rotund crest]

I have one very specific skill in that I am an expert on Ito Processes and my current job requires that knowledge.

[smoky quest]

I would also suggest to also include other factors in your analysis:

• Teams, will they be great to work with?
• Learning opportunities? Mentorship opportunities?
• Alignment with the career path
• Growth path

[near ocean]

Removing the junior qualifier gives a closer estimate to yours but that kind of proves the point either way

[lapis wind]

Unfortunately they are for most web dev jobs, learning C# in the UK is a pretty sure fire way to be employeed but be paid like shit. Double edged blade of

Pick your programming language poison wisely kids

[near ocean]

I pick 15 year old python2.7 and in-house templating (i wish it was /s)

[rotund crest]

I spoke with my predecessor I replaced at my current job who now works at a FAANG level company. She essentially told me that oil and gas is so desperate for fresh blood they can retain, that as fresh blood myself I am a much more valuable resource than I think I am. Noone wants to work in O&G which I experienced first hand as we accumulated a pile of rejections from offers we gave interns. She further told me that they lost 4 people like me this year alone they could not replace who all unanimously rejected counteroffers hence why the upper managerment is so willing to listen to an absurd offer.

I think all your points you point out are a huge positive in the new job, but damn, part of me wants to sell my soul.

[near ocean]

Why dont people want to work in oil and gas? I'd love a shell role tbh, those look like they pay bank

[true harness]

ethics

[near ocean]

Actually?

[rotund crest]

I can only speak from my personal experience. At my company, we have a very deep emphasis on ESG, environmental, social and governance. The reason why is that the younger generations think that oil and gas is a deeply rooted evil. This has a significant effect because it is shaping how fresh grads invest in retirement portfolios, and affects the ability for a company to issue things such as corporate bonds to earn money (generate liquidity on demand really). There is an extremely large negative stigma and we have massive financial incentives to do everything we can to reduce that perception because it is affecting our daily trading volume in a measurably detrimental way.

Furthermore, many new grads simply think that oil and gas is a dying field and they will be rendered obsolete within years. Regardless of what one may think about the industry, that is just not true. But it does has a deep effect that at the University I went to/lectured at, our oil and gas/petroleum engineering specialties went from some of our most popular majors to a program we terminated 3 years ago because the most recent graduating class was like 2 people, down from maybe 50? 100? I don't know the exact numbers. The combination of the two factors greatly reduce the hiring pool.

I am talking in kind of broad strokes, there is a lot to write about in depth, but the bottom line is ethics and job security.

In contrast to the dying O&G specialties, when we started our master of data science program, I was part of the Math/CPSC department meeting. It was determined that we only had room for 2 students, but we wouldn't get many applicants anyway: mainly our own math undergrads with a close relationship to the faculty. We got over 1000 applicants from across the world. The perception on what is hot and what is not is very undeniable from my own narrow experience.

[final beacon]

I know a CS grad that was hired for a year at 14$ an hour to develop a whole mobile app

A family member went to a CS grad class to find hires and had a ton that wanted to work and were willing to work at that. That's just my anecdotal on why I disagree

[smoky quest]

The existence of naive people one can exploit is a different argument than the market level of the CS industry

[ashen beacon]

Hi

[tardy heart]

Heya

[peak halo]

hello @ashen beacon @tardy heart. this is a discussion channel, so make sure that if you're entering the conversation, you're contributing to an ongoing conversation or introducing a new topic/question

[tardy heart]

Yes I know but he said hi so I said heya back it is only fair

[peak halo]

you are not in trouble. but please keep what I said in mind.

[tardy heart]

Kk

[astral ermine]

I did it boys. I was interviewed for a "data science" job where they basically want a sql monkey. The hiring manager asked me "when can you start?".

Thank you all for your input and advise throughout my application process. This opportunity is life changing for me.

[peak halo]

I always believed in you 💚

though "effective pedagogy" still sounds weird

[astral ermine]

Thank you. I 100% believe that part of why they called me was because I rephrased that to something else lol. My resume definitely needed work and I received great feedback here.

[tardy heart]

Congratulations!!

[peak halo]

though does "when can you start?" mean "when might you be able to start"? or did they also say "we are going to give you an offer letter"?

[astral ermine]

The former. He wants me to meet the team, but he also asked me if I needed to give the standard two week notice at my job. To which I answered that once I receive the offer, I feel comfortable putting in my two weeks because I've left a lot of good documentation regarding how I do my job.

[delicate bane]

congrats dude. thats great. +1 to the proper documentation too

[delicate bane]

O&G is also very volatile. that industry will layoff juniors at the drop of a hat and then only retain senior folks in tougher times

its happened to some folks i knew 🕯️

and their definition of senior tends to be higher than other fields

[delicate bane]

1000? with only 2 spots? thats absolutely wild

[near ocean]

That doesnt make sense tho, how is O&G volatile but also starving for people

Volatile things are volatile because theres a huge pool of available candidates, otherwise they'd go under

[rotund crest]

It was a brand new program. It needed courses designed, we wanted a mandatory work experience placement and everything

[delicate bane]

? i meant volatile as an actual industry. like O&G finances are very volatile.

imagine having the $$$ for X headcount one year, then next year you have only enough for 1/4 of that headcount

[delicate bane]

oh interesting. its good that you guys wanted quality first

[rotund crest]

I kind of joke that whoever we accept into the program should be rejected from the program by virtue of doing a terrible job of analyzing the opportunity. They paid as much as the later incoming groups to the program.

[delicate bane]

thats a funny joke

[near ocean]

I read volatile as "high turnover"

[delicate bane]

ah gotcha. sorry. i honestly have a hard time thinking of another word besides volatile to describe that phenomenon atm

oh you know who else experiences annual budget issues like this? hospitals. thats why many dev jobs for them dont pay the greatest. which is unfortunate tbh.

[near ocean]

Hm, pay my bills BP

[delicate bane]

but yeah sometimes the hospitals themselves go under. but O&G actually makes real $$$.

[rotund crest]

At least at my company the main benefit has been an absurd amount of time off

[near ocean]

Do you have the unlimited PTO scam?

[rotund crest]

No. I have 4 weeks vacation, 13 flex days and 28 observed holidays? Vacation time goes up to 6 weeks at the cap

I would need to double check the observed holidays but basically zero work gets done for December. My boss will take over 11 weeks of vacation this year due to covid

[delicate bane]

oh dang that sounds nice

wait but how many hours/week do peeps usually work -- that is the real question

[rotund crest]

40 hours

[delicate bane]

oh ok. yeah sounds like a great deal

[near ocean]

Do you mean what the contracts say or what hours people actually work

[rotund crest]

The big disadvantage is that all the executives in oil are basically old white men. WFH is pretty spartan

[delicate bane]

oof.

you think you are going to stay in O&G?

[rotund crest]

Probably not. But if you want to do nothing but coast it is sure very comfortable

At least if you survive the constant layoffs whenever things go bad, which I haven’t experienced

[delicate bane]

interesting

maybe a good approach would be to make a few bucks and then move industries when appropriate/desired

[true jetty]

is it safe to say that most cs jobs in USA will create a comfortable life financially?

no intent of moving to east or west coast

[tiny wolf]

Hello sir can I make game using python?

[true harness]

yes

[gritty rivet]

The majority of software engineering jobs are remote now, and even on the low end salaries are generally quite livable

[gritty rivet]

Yes, see #game-development

[tiny wolf]

TQ for helping

[amber harness]

I have a question. Is it okay to pursue a course of Computer Science despite not having much of a background about programming? I only studied Python but did not continue due to school work.

[gritty rivet]

This may depend on the country and other details. I would say look in to the requirements and recommendations of the specific programs you are considering.

[summer roost]

it's not necessarily clear that most engineering jobs will continue to be remote going forward, and I think it's already not the case that most jobs for juniors are remote

that said, it's definitely true that software jobs should leave you financially comfortable, regardless.

[gritty rivet]

Fair enough... My point was just that living in an expensive coastal city is very much optional and not required

[summer roost]

right

[amber harness]

Okay, I'll look into it. Thank you very much!

[true jetty]

yeah honestly I'm very comfy in my 60k population city in wisconsin and don't want to move to LA NYC WA, etc - though I'd love to earn a mclaren within the next 10 years lol

[rocky wraith]

is studying django worth it

[serene kindle]

no

[summer roost]

for what?

[rocky wraith]

for backend

[tropic crystal]

How to use
re.sub(pattern,pattern+something,string)
I am getting stucked

[graceful mason]

#❓｜how-to-get-help

[gritty rivet]

It's hard, just like most things worth doing, at least in the beginning. But anyone can do it with dedication and persistent effort

[river mica]

I have python experience. How can I get a job now?

[gritty rivet]

Start applying for jobs

[peak halo]

you can always apply, but just "knowing python" probably won't be enough. if you apply to be a web developer, they want to see web dev experience. if you apply to be a cloud engineer, they want to see cloud engineering experience. etc. if you apply to a company, and the team they're considering placing you in uses python, then knowing it certainly helps. but knowing a language is rarely a job qualification.

[lusty robin]

For those that are data scientists, do you recommend learning python first and being really good at it? Or is the best route to learn python and R at the same time? It seems each language has its own library to learn and I'm concerned about spreading myself too thin.

When you're on the job, do you focus on one language or do you have to use sql, R and python on a daily basis?

[gilded valley]

On the job at my company people use whatever is their personal preference, so there's a solid mix of both.

You would be completely fine knowing just python, but not knowing python would definitely be a handicap. That being said, R is nicer for quite a few things so there is value in picking it up

SQL is something you just need to know

If you do learn R, then r4ds is a phenomenal resource. Better then anything I know of in python https://r4ds.had.co.nz/

[oak wasp]

Hey, i want your help, i want the websites of your country where vacancies are posted, if it was a remote job, I will send my CV

[peak halo]

a lot of data scientists write terrible Python code (like most of the code on towardsdatascience and medium make my eyes bleed), but the point of data science is to do the analysis, so focusing on learning data science theory will do more to help you get employed.

I wouldn't bother with R unless you see a lot of job listings that require R. I don't know anyone in my company who uses R.

Python and R are both for writing algorithms. SQL is for interacting with a tabular database. So regardless of whether you know Python or R, if your projects involve SQL databases, you'll need to know SQL.

[delicate bane]

R can be dependent on industry so i would check that too

but im biased towards python since you would be better equipped to deploy your own models

(if theyre used in production obv)

[lusty robin]

Thanks for the advice

[lusty robin]

Thanks for the advice

[grim summit]

Are Professional Certificates Good enough? Does a degree make that big of a difference? I'm trying to find other alternatives to my UNI as they just want money and don't care about anything else. They wouldn't let me skip any courses even tho I provided evidence of my competence.

[vapid jay]

for computer science, should I get an A.S or an A.A?

[stoic timber]

What are those ? It depends on your country’s education system most likely

[delicate bane]

usually uni's dont let you skip unless there is some formal procedures such as credit by exam, etc.

[grim summit]

my uni allows you to apply to skip. And if you have a certificate you can be auto skipped i'm thinking of taking a quick certificate that covers a lot of modules just to save time and money

[delicate bane]

well, then why cant you do it?

[grim summit]

I dont know i just thought about it today

[delicate bane]

🥴

[summer roost]

companies that employ software development don't generally care about certificates at all.

[fair crag]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e7afvCagd8

[modest cedar]

So how do companies test their employees?

[summer roost]

what do you mean by "test their employees"?

[near ocean]

Test pre-offer? Usually a tech interview where they ask you to solve a couple (usually isolated) problems, design questions, general HR obligations, conversations with the team for fit purposes, etc

[neat lynx]

they 1st ask questions about ur base of programming

as per my teacher says

[serene kindle]

they have regular performance evaluation in cycles where they give feedback and grades of how well the employee did in that cycle

[serene kindle]

everyone gets 'letter grade' of how well they did that cycle and determines if they get promoted or fired

[ivory sluice]

promoted or fired? are those the only two options?

[lapis wind]

Promotes - no change - fired 😅

[ivory sluice]

is this actually how it works? wouldn't promotions only be made when there are actually promotions available, and wouldn't a poor evaluation lead more to something like a performance improvement plan?

[coarse crag]

what about warnings? is that not one of the options?

yeah and iirc, pip (performance improvement plan) is given after a certain times of poor performance evaluations.

[neon tiger]

Thinking between game or web development

[lapis wind]

I don't think it's nessesarily incorrect. My old work operated on this basis (peer quarterly review) where you can go up a pay band (not really fired as that's completely separate)

[ivory sluice]

peer!! and quarterly!!

quarterly raises too?

[lapis wind]

I think the general consensus was you'd go up a band about every 1 to 2 years but that can change depending on things of course

[summer roost]

peer reviews are part of the feedback cycle at my company, as well. So is reviews of managers by their reports.

[serene kindle]

i was just being simple

[lapis wind]

Not always, although iirc it was guaranteed minium to go up an increment in the pay band sub-states per year if you're not bumped up a band

[serene kindle]

the actual outcome is more complex and varies with the company and individual and time

[coarse crag]

how often is employee performance review being done in general?

google said (every 3-6 months)

[lapis wind]

I think it'll vastly vary by the company

[summer roost]

yearly is common. Perhaps 2x per year.

[coarse crag]

oooo i see i see

[lapis wind]

It'll likely be something like quarterly or every six months etc...

[smoky quest]

There is the strategy and tactical level.

• Strategy (ie. longer term and more heavy, like promotions and career conversations) would happen 1-2 times a year, the 2x a year having in general one light and the other heavier process.
• Tactical would be more like a check in to make sure we are on track and would happen quarterly. Not all companies do that

Note also that in general, there is also continuous feedback as you want to coach people as close as possible to the event which requires coaching

[coarse crag]

oh i see. that's a very comprehensive explanation. thank you!

[warped estuary]

can anyone teach me the very basics of python

ive tried watching yt but it doesnt help

[coarse crag]

this channel is for career-discussion. for that matter you can ask in #python-discussion.

see if this can help. Automate the Boring Stuff with Python is very popular for beginners.
https://automatetheboringstuff.com/

[warped estuary]

sry

[jaunty cradle]

what are the best entry level resume projects that don't take long

[peak halo]

Don't think about how long they will take. Programming is not a get rich quick scheme.

What kind of job do you want to get?

[jaunty cradle]

I may have procrastinated doing them a bit needs to be done in like 2 weeks. full stack summer internship

[serene kindle]

just skip the project entirely and apply for the internship

better to skip it than put a 2 week project on a resume

[true harness]

2 weeks is a pretty long time 🤔, you can get a pretty decent project up

[smoky quest]

It's about the demonstrated skills.
So you could focus on the core skills. It's better to have something smaller in cope but tidy than trying to do too much but looking like crap. In that context and given you are looking for fullstack, that means either a basic fullstack app, or putting more effort in either frontend or backend

[robust trench]

Hello guys, I'm from India and i am looking forth to learn python for my career. It'll be more than enough if anyone could just guide me please, I am really concerned about this and i want my growth in this field look out for good opportunities. It will be a great help to me.

[smoky quest]

Welcome!
https://automatetheboringstuff.com/ is a great resource to get started with python

[buoyant seal]

Decide whom u want to work then, what kind of job role u a wishing to have, with what kind of domain to deal with?, and preferably tell your educational background

[robust trench]

If only i had any idea whom to work for
I searched for the job opportunities and there were certain fields like in Data Scientists, Big Network types and Networking. I thought data scientist would be great and it came out of the blues, i have done my graduation in commerce and i guess maybe this would be stymie and struggling for me to just switch from one background to a whole new different background.

[robust trench]

Thank you

[digital pumice]

Hello guys, Do we need to have PCM in class 11 and 12 to have CS or AI as major in university?
Kindlly help

[smoky quest]

it would probably help to get more context about your country, what are PCM and class 11 and 12

[digital pumice]

I am in India and PCM is a stream with Physics ,chem and maths in high school

[smoky quest]

Thanks!
Sounds like highly India specific and not something I could help with. Hopefully someone else more familiar with it can help and benefit from that context!

[digital pumice]

np thanks

[buoyant seal]

Research those roadmaps then
https://towardsdatascience.com/data-science-learning-roadmap-for-2021-84f2ba09a44f
https://levelup.gitconnected.com/three-key-and-resources-for-getting-started-with-data-science-505fab7b85c5

If u plan going data science way

[robust trench]

Ok I'll go through all this

[robust trench]

Sir can we have a talk regarding this in the personal chat if it's ok with you regarding data science and the links you've sent

[buoyant seal]

I can't help u on the way to data science except in some generic shared things

I am software engineer / python backend developer / a bit of DevOps engineer.
My chosen field of expertise is cloud web development

My roadmap is here
https://github.com/darklab8/darklab_backend_roadmap/blob/master/swe_backend.drawio.svg

Well, and purely technically I have degree with major in math, and had machine learning for master degree. So some kind of awareness about data science is present, but lack of any commercial experience in it and being not interested in it, makes me not a really useful guide in it

[robust trench]

It's ok sér, you did great
And i got some relevant information which ll help me alot
The links are useful
Thanks alot

[vapid jay]

hi, has anyone here had a slow career progression or maybe just slow learning in programming in general in their job, especially in the early years of their career?

[smoky quest]

everyone has their own path

[vapid jay]

sure but what does that mean

[smoky quest]

it means that someone's path may be fast to some and slow to others.

And people may take different paths

[vapid jay]

I see. What career advice would you give to someone like me who feels like their growth and technical knowledge is slow and weak?

cause I’m already working on learning more every day

[smoky quest]

The main advice would be:

• Understand what you want to do/be
• What's preventing you to do so

Being great is a process, not a state

[vapid jay]

@smoky quest those are great points

[buoyant seal]

Ergh. My first 1.5 years of career were the most rapid fast one. I had free reign to try everything, to choose anything. Due to having... accurately learning the most necessary stuff to do my current job better and more efficient, i was able to have quick growth
Then i changed job and received alternative set of duties (digging in legacy code of already mature scaled product)... I feel like i go slower, and yet i gain also experience i would not probably normally gain.
And may be i just reached stuff where each thing is a bit harder to climb.
I compensate with having good learning during weekends, and sometimes also going in self education during evenings of workdays
i find the speed more or less acceptable then

My learning is divided into sometimes learning theory, sometimes doing just practical tasks / pet projects. It depends on when i feel more lacking in which field. Switching from time to time.

I would not mind getting a job where i own all processes from zero. It feels like more healthy environment for rapid skill growth

It is kind of more useful to face the challenges of infrastructure / app growth and building everything to make that transfer, than already just digging in already made product

yet it is useful experience, as i seek good and bad steps they made in their already big product. I make preparations / researching stuff necessary what to choose / how to use stuff from earlier product stages to later ones during its need to be scaled, if it would be needed

P.S. There is only one bad trap about rapid skill growth in free reign to choose anything. Better to not choose tech that you are trully aren't needing to use for current project at work. Some choices can be really not necessary for product and its earlier stages of life, and you would harm development if you chose to complicated stuff, it will lead to much more costy/lengty development with harder to test environment without really and advantages at this stage of app life
There are needs to have really carefully chosen decisions being made.

in pet projects it does not matter though and you have a choice to over engineer as much as you wish xD Better to be still considering what choosing though, as you are usually wishing to reach at least minimum viable product. And not being stuck in development forever

[buoyant seal]

btw, you could find attractive ideas of Career Driven Development xD https://dev.to/codingnninja/career-driven-development-an-analogy-to-test-driven-development-for-learning-to-code-59ce

[buoyant seal]

and yeah... i have clearly defined goals whom i want to be in what kind of role, and researched exactly stuff i am missing to be it. Having clear goals = helps to build roadmaps on a way to the goal

Actually considerable learning experience I gain just from speaking in discord. Useful bits there and there. When I help someone, someone in return corrects me / helps me.

[digital pumice]

hey all
pls suggest me some good universities in India to pursue CS or AI

[vapid jay]

Im 13 and just want to know if there are jobs I can do at home in my free time

[summer roost]

Most likely not. In most countries a 13 year old cannot legally work, except in some very specific scenarios that likely don't apply to you coding

[digital pumice]

is there any online internship available for 16 year old?

[serene kindle]

https://summerofcode.withgoogle.com/

[summer roost]

It sounds quite unlikely to me. I've never heard of one, at least.

[serene kindle]

the gsoc is an online internship

oops nevermind its minimum age is 18

i think 18 is minimum age for a lot of online jobs

[gritty rivet]

What are you worried about? If it really concerns you you can ask them to fix it but to be honest I don't understand what you're concerned about.

[steel pecan]

Agreed, But i don't think that Middle name is much Important in Official Places..

[near remnant]

I just have two second names but yeah.. I just called the hiring manager and he told me its all good

So I'm not worried

[steel pecan]

Ok then..

[buoyant seal]

My international passport is not even having my middle name. I think it is not everywhere culturally acceptable to have more than first and second name

[buoyant seal]

In anyway, who cares, u a identified by your passport number enough

[near remnant]

Yeah, but I still did a quick call for my hiring manager and he made sure its fine, thanks tho!

[delicate bane]

lol thats good, but just be careful you don't annoy your hiring manager too much for the little stuff...

[near remnant]

Yeah, im trying man, been hard because I had to wait weeks for this..the offer is already done and will be sent tomorrow, so all good.

[buoyant elm]

There's something similar specifically for high schoolers iirc

[thin crescent]

Hello, i need some advice for studying a language ( am confused between German(Germany), Dutch (Netherlands) and Swedish (Sweden), norwegian (Norway)

I am currently pursuing my masters in data science but also want to keep my options open should i decide to explore working abroad. Any advice ?

Or if there's any other languages or countries you can suggest for me to explore. I am open to that too.

[buoyant seal]

Best IT language is English. Ensure to have it at maximum before moving to others

[near ocean]

There's no way an optional language module will affect your career in any way, pick one you enjoy

[thin crescent]

I am confident in my English speaking skills. That's why i wish to learn and explore other languages which may improve the scope of opportunities available to me

[near ocean]

If i had to pick between them i'd go with dutch, not that you would need it for work there, it would most likely be in english anyway

[thin crescent]

Can you share your reasons for recommending Dutch? I just want to know so i have better clarity

[gilded valley]

Germany has the largest population and I think the lowest English speaking rate of the three. I think it's probably more valuable than the other two unless you specifically want to live and work in the other countries.

But this really seems very tangential to careers, the choice will have no meaningful impact.

[near ocean]

Reason is if i was to move to one of those places i'd go with the netherlands cause its pretty, pays well for tech, and has the highest % of population speaking english

Denmark would also be a similar choice for me tbh, i've considered both countries for moving to in the future

[thin crescent]

The prospect of moving is also something i want to consider as well. Thank you for sharing your perspective

[near ocean]

Im already bilingual too, the thought of havin to learn german or swedish is just... too much, i've heard dutch is fairly simple from friends

[thin crescent]

I will certainly consider that as well. I appreciate your help

[delicate bane]

i heard the germany tech scene is pretty good

lots of opportunities

[vapid jay]

thanks for sharing your story. its just that I can't really relate, maybe because I'm not like a top performer

[smoky quest]

<@&831776746206265384> ads

[ivory sluice]

hi, please don't advertise/self-promote @tame wagon

check out our #rules as well

[neat grove]

!mute 1008458573027754148 1d You were just asked not to do that

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @tame wagon until <t:1660593485:f> (23 hours and 59 minutes).

[delicate bane]

hmm hmm how do you guys approach a build vs. buy scenario?

like obv for either choice youre going to have to convince some peeps at work of your decision

[lapis wind]

Generally speaking, it's nearly always easier to buy than to build unless there's some specific feature you need which the existing options dont offer.

The amount of inhouse apps i've seen get made and then left to die is very high, and generally they're not as good as a buy situation unless you have dedicated dev time set aside to maintain it.

From a business point of view it's hard to beat as well. If say we have a developer day rate of 500$, thats 500$ a day the company is loosing because the dev is building the app rather than doing work for a client.
Now realistically is the cost of the developer time going to actually be cheaper than buying the existing product? Probably not.

[serene kindle]

build is better to create more job security and fake work haha

[smoky quest]

It mostly comes down to how it relates to the core competency of your company (or team).
So you could look at it as how much effort or cost to build it, including long term maintenance and ownership as well as missed opportunities (someone who works on that thing won't be available for other initiatives), or from a strategy perspective where you look at how it helps you differentiate yourself and leverage it and how it aligns with your product offering.

[sudden yacht]

Well you have just given another reason why a business might buy off the shelf.

[delicate bane]

great advice. thanks everybody. i think the only thing im finding is many engineers prefer the build-it-yourself approach, and sometimes it can be difficult to convince them otherwise. i guess its another type of stakeholder management if you think about it

[grim summit]

Hey guys Im back with some more questions. Are MicroBachelors good?

[smoky quest]

lots of engineers underestimate the total cost and overhype the cool parts

[smoky quest]

depends on what you want to do with it

[grim summit]

i just want to save my time in my university and skip a lot of the early stage modules
https://www.edx.org/microbachelors/nyux-programming-data-structures (this is what im considering)

[smoky quest]

then it's useless

[grim summit]

innit

[grim summit]

my uni lets you skip modules if you have proven qualifications

[smoky quest]

with a bachelors, you are gonna have a job.
with a microbachelor, you will have a micro job with a micro salary

[grim summit]

having a job isnt the issue for me now

[smoky quest]

if the microbachelor can help you to prove these qualifications, then it's up to you. But that's highly specific to your university

That said, these modules are there for a reason and I would be suspicious of anyone trying to skip them

[grim summit]

they are easy modules

i just dont want to waste 6 months for 3 modules when i can do a micro bach for 9 and get 7 modules done with

[smoky quest]

Proving these 6months would be wasted would be also a pretty spicy claim

[delicate bane]

oof i will try to keep this in mind as i go through my career

[grim summit]

ive taken Intro to programming and it literally didnt get to for loops IN JS

[lapis wind]

you're better off doing the regular approach, and in the time you have free after learning all the stuff in the modules and practicing and learning programming 😉

[gilded valley]

Will they let you test out of units/modules?

[grim summit]

nope need qualifications or nothing

[gilded valley]

Then ask your university what qualifications count

[lapis wind]

Is a micro what ever it is, even considered a qualification to them

[grim summit]

I didn't even finish HS so it was a miracle i got in 2/3 years ago

[gilded valley]

They will know better than a random discord

[smoky quest]

There are plenty of students going in knowing more than what is assumed by the class. And that's fine.
It's still worth going because you will either refresh on something you already know or get to learn something new. It also gives you more time to prepare for the other classes

Remember that what you learned on your own did lack in formalism and rigorous approach that the class may teach you nonetheless.

[grim summit]

they take weeks/months to reply i already emailed

[gilded valley]

Right now you're asking strangers to guess at your university's policies and procedures, it's not going to be super accurate

[grim summit]

the only thing i learnt past 2 year was discrete maths

ima send u guys a link

[lapis wind]

As a general advise I wouldn't worry about trying to learn and skip over everything as fast as possible, which seems to be your current approach

[grim summit]

https://www.london.ac.uk/applications/how-apply/recognition-prior-learning/recognition-and-accreditation-prior-learning-3

[grim summit]

not everything but just the first few modules. I want to get into data science web dev e.t.c

[lapis wind]

Realistically skipping them isn't going to help you any more than going to them. In fact the worst case the modules can do is firm up your existing knowledge

[gilded valley]

This page lists a bunch of valid qualifications. Have you done any/many of them?

[lapis wind]

Also looking at the above page, a micro degree or what ever doesn't qualify because it isn't guided by the BSc - as far as I can tell

[grim summit]

Ok thanks guys

appreciate you all

[gilded valley]

What do you mean "guided by the BSc"?

[lapis wind]

That should be BCS*

[gilded valley]

that page doesn't mention BCS anywhere

[lapis wind]

Ohh fuck ignore me, reading things badly on a phone

[gilded valley]

The page lists three Coursera courses that are valued at 15 credits each. If you just want to skip as many modules as possible, then doing those is a pretty sensible step. You're only allowed to get 60 credits from prior learning at level 5, and you won't be able to complete any courses in time for them to count for level 4, so doing those 3 whilst you wait to hear back from your actual university seems like a better way to spend your energy than doing these random other courses that might or might not count

[delicate bane]

data science and web dev are completely different career paths btw

and require completely dif skill sets

[lapis wind]

Honestly, I think you might as well just do it as normal if you're going to go to uni.

Worst case you'll just breeze through the modules and have free time, best case you'll learn something new.

[delicate bane]

unless you meant you want to take those classes, then def go for it and explore which you like better

that can help you make a decision in regards to where you want to invest your time

[lapis wind]

Try a bit of everything, see what you like

[buoyant seal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=c6rP-YP4c5I

[delicate bane]

DW

[lapis wind]

Although I will say, I think jumping from DS to web dev is easier than the other way around

[delicate bane]

for me, streamlit goes pretty far in demoing pretty much anything i need atm

one day i will pick up some more JS skills than my basic ones atm

[gilded valley]

imo the best way to build out dashboards is to just use HTMX + Flask/FastAPI. You can easily send out plotly graphs etc, but you're not tied into this weird low-code ecosystem with a funky way of doing callbacks/interactivity

Comparing it to dash - the biggest difference is that you're writing actual html and css vs nested lists of dash Components

[delicate bane]

oh man i hate callbacks and managing state. ill check that out, thanks.

i also think that being able to serve models as a REST API is a pretty good skill for DS to pickup, so that they can demonstrate value

[gilded valley]

the hardest sell is that there's no great starting point, with dash (and presumably with streamlit) it's literally just copy pasting from the docs - this is a bit bespoke which scares people away very quickly, even if it is easier for anything even remotely complex

[frosty terrace]

what are recommended libraries to use for data analyst jobs? Planning on making an app that will store all the stocks I own and how much I purchased them for, then I will use a graph to compare data I'm using.

[gilded valley]

pandas, and some way to visualise data - plotly is probably the best visualisation library to pick up in terms of employability. SQL and generic data visualisation skills matter more than any specific library

[lapis wind]

You may not want to hear this, but, Excel

[gilded valley]

My team would not hire a data analyst who wasn't comfortable going beyond Excel. You need at a minimum Tableau or Power BI

[lapis wind]

Oh boy yeah Power BI

If you are a god at power BI you will probably have a job for life - personally hate it to the core though

[frosty terrace]

whats a good database to use?

[gilded valley]

any SQL database. If you're just learning, SQLite is fine.

[lapis wind]

It really depends, but in business, MSSQL will be everywhere you go

[frosty terrace]

This visualization libraries.. do they work well with GUI?

[gilded valley]

What do you mean "work well with GUI"?

[celest kite]

And Oracle

[frosty terrace]

So for example, using a GUI where these graphs will appear within it. I assume for these libraries, graphs are just outputted image, but it's not like an actual GUI.

I assume these GUIs would need a built in feature to display this information, otherwise I'll have to manually do this.

[gilded valley]

Plotly will give you graphs that are interactive in a web page. If you want to get employed in this, then just go start playing with things rather than trying to focus on much on playing with the right things

[smoky quest]

Sounds like a question for #databases

[gilded valley]

This is definitely only tangentially related to careers. Any more questions seem better suited to an off topic channel or #python-discussion

[frosty terrace]

Doesn't it matter what libraries I use?

Like will just knowing SQLite, Pandas, and Tableau be enough for a data analyst job?

[summer roost]

knowing SQL matters much more than knowing any particular database (or particular database library)

[gilded valley]

Is your question "I have already decided to be a data analyst what do I need to learn?" or is it "what does a data analyst need to know so I can decide if I want to become one or not?"

[frosty terrace]

the question is more... I was planning on doing this project eventually, didn't want to do it so soon, but seems like it'll look good on my resume rather than a game. So what do I use to spice up my resume for using good libraries for a data analyst position

[gilded valley]

Then the right approach is to just go get started on the project, not to fuss over specific details.

[left socket]

Mm. Would be good to just start and find out if you enjoy it first!

[remote crater]

What's more appealing to employers?
1: making some games in python.
2: making some games with HTML, CSS, JS and putting them on some website.

[smoky quest]

neither. The most appealing projects are the ones that are the closest to the role you are interviewing for

[gritty rivet]

Depends on the role

[peak halo]

If you do 2, that could contribute towards getting a job that involves front end web development. There probably isn't any job where 1 would make much difference beyond demonstrating general python/programming competence. But recursive error's point is right.

[wanton rock]

Hey y'all, currently need advice

Im broke and im trying to find way where I can recieve money quickly(this week). Ive looked into personal loans however they require some sort of proof of income. Im currently employed but i havent gotten my first pay check, so personal loans doesnt seem like a viable option. Do you have any recommendations

[vapid jay]

just starting learning python from freecodecamp. how do I stay consistent? my programmer friends are using arch and gentoo, how do I keep up?

[ancient lava]

hello sir

[gilded valley]

the most valuable project is the one that you will enjoy more because it'll increase the chance you want to do more projects in the future - focus first on having fun building things, second on employability

[near ocean]

I dont think games make you seem more employable (in the context of python dev) but thats my own opinion which might be controversial
If you want to be employable you could do a blog, a social media clone, visualizations, etc

[vapid jay]

I need tool ddos for ddos website 18+

[near ocean]

<@&831776746206265384>

[sudden yacht]

!rule 5

[inner wren]

Rules

5. Do not provide or request help on projects that may break laws, breach terms of services, or are malicious or inappropriate.

[sudden yacht]

We won't help with that here

[vapid jay]

Okay

[vapid jay]

You help me in what rôm

[sudden yacht]

It is not suitable anywhere in this server.

[vapid jay]

Oh

[tacit mortar]

what should be minimum knownledge when someone applies for 1st job in IT - python related jobs ?

[serene kindle]

ask your employer for an early paycheck

[near ocean]

You should look at what entry level it jobs ask for in relation to python and study that

[vapid jay]

how do big web consoluting firms find "big customer"?

[serene kindle]

idk

[near ocean]

Not really a career question, are you a big web consulting firm?

[serene kindle]

they want to be

[lapis wind]

Contacts™️, also sometimes word to mouth or things where you subcontract for another firm for the bigger company, and then the bigger company goes directly to you

[pure estuary]

or no, i cant stream

[pallid iron]

Hello can someone help me with discord.py

[buoyant seal]

1. recommending to read how to ask questions, and what better not to ask. Don't ask to ask, just ask.
   https://www.pythondiscord.com/pages/guides/pydis-guides/asking-good-questions/

2. secondly, there is more appropriate channel #discord-bots

[past nova]

is it goot idea to learn both python and js?

this may be a silly question tho

[true harness]

both languages are widely used, so not really a bad choice with either. at the same time, might be a little confusing

[gritty rivet]

Depends what you want to do. If you want to do full stack web development, sure.

[trim flume]

Hi
Any indians here? Dm me about this
I will be doing Msc and BE Computer Science
Should I also enroll in Btech By IIT Madras?

[buoyant seal]

if you are in web development, u a obligated to learn javascript at least to basic level even if you are backend developer who does not need it

the choice for backend language is whatever is wished, it can be python, it can be any other desireable language (Python, PHP, Java, JS, C#, Ruby, Golang, Rust and etc)
if u go frontend, you have only a choice to learn javascript

if you aren't in web development, i think it is bad idea to learn javascript then xD I think this language is purely from web related field

[silver mountain]

Hi there, Im young python enjoyer, just finished my bachelors and looking for a job in Poland. Maybe u can recommend me some companies in my country that build pretty python codebases 🙂 (Looking for places where I can learn how to be better pythonist 😉

[summer roost]

We don't allow advertising specific jobs here. My advice would be for you to look at companies that sponsor local Python conferences, as they're clearly heavily invested in the Python space.

Companies that host local Python meetups, too

[silver mountain]

Just looked 4some and theres not much in Poland :/ , also most are sponsored by python groups (not enterpises)

[sonic token]

Are there any good python courses you guys can recommend probably?

I guess ones which cost less and are easy to go through 🤔

[buoyant seal]

i can recommend only a bunch of books 😆 my favourite form to learn. I consider it is better than any courses

[true harness]

i think mit ocw 6.001 is python introduction? mit ocw in general is really good

[sonic token]

Oh! I don't mean basics, probably ones more advanced

[true harness]

about what specifically? the book fluent python is great

[indigo mulch]

Hello Guys! I am new to this group. I want some career advice from you guys. I am currently doing my degree in Computer Science and my core Programming Language is Python. I want to excel further in a specific niche. My interests are Data Science and Cyber. I want to know can I learn both because Python is core language between these fields.

[sonic token]

Hmm, I am gravitating towards building AI projects I guess, plus I would really like shortcuts and efficient python programming techniques

[peak halo]

I would pick one of those two. you can't learn all of data science or all of cyber, even in a whole career. and they're both high-paying.

[indigo mulch]

I live in a third world country. There are only few jobs related to these fields. Only Web and App is in high demand in my country. I am planning to shift to an other country like Qatar or UK for job. Can you guide me which field has higher opportunities for freelancing and remote job.

[peak halo]

AI is mostly about understanding how AI works, regardless of the implementation language. So the result is that a lot of AI devs write stylistically poor Python code. But then, Python's data science ecosystem differs from general Python usage, in several ways.

[peak halo]

I can't comment on what's in demand in other markets. it would just be speculation.

[versed beacon]

Yeah even i'm also looking to work with global startups who encorage remote works

Does anyone know where to look for?

[lapis wind]

That really depends on what sort of startups, with what tech stacks

[summer roost]

my impression is that startups, even moreso than larger and more established companies, will prefer to only hire people from the country that they're based in

having workers in multiple countries makes for a more complicated tax situation, as well as more work to comply with local labor laws, and companies without an in-house legal team are unlikely to want to take on that extra work (and extra legal risk).

[buoyant seal]

Programming language is just small step in those journeys to those two paths.

According to most modern.. views upon those paths, in order to achieve being high level...

U a expected to have high science rank for Data Science path (bachelor is barely minimum, master is normal, but even higher can be expected rank). U need to know higher math stuff first, then knowing Python and related to this field stuff. U can check examples of successful people in https://kaggle.com

Security according to modern views is expected to be in the role of DevSecOps (processes to provide are automated as part of deployment pipeline). Can I mention that it is really not entry job to become DevOps engineer which is before that role? And for DevOps role, u a expected to have Software engineering + some Operations background. And that is not mentioning yet what u need to know for Security itself.

[summer roost]

Can I mention that it is really not entry job to become DevOps engineer which is before that role?
I disagree - I see lots of job ads matching "junior DevOps engineer"

[delicate bane]

i think SRE is not an entry-level role, which is different than DevOps. but i could be wrong.

[buoyant seal]

Ergh... Opinions here are a bit divided regarding it.
Yes, such entry jobs exist... And for some reason it is usually System administrator level which managed to learn some level of scripting/infrastructure as a code tools.

But in reality this job kind of expects Software Engineering background as well in order to excel in it.

DevOps engineer is expected to know a lot from software engineering and infrastructure stuff, and literally a lot in width in different tools, plus to the level of actually being software architect at the level of skills. Because it is kind of in its responsibility to choose necessary technologies/cloud solutions, and designing shape of a software product for major of its part. Infrastructure affects kind of a lot.

People who understand it therefore asking in job requirements like minimum 3 years of backend development experience in addition to asking 3 years of experience in being DevOps engineer for example

It is not reall entry job level, but if to downgrade it to system administrators who managed to learn scripting and not really able to fulfill duties of a full fledged DevOps engineer / Cloud architect solution engineer, then yes it can be junior

[summer roost]

that does not seem to match the job ads I'm finding on Google. It's easy to find job ads for someone with a BS in CS or some related field and 0-2 years of experience for entry level dev ops jobs.

[buoyant seal]

SRE is kind of just a branch of DevOps engineers. They overlap in knowledge almost everything. According to Google vision, it is Software developer who deal with Operations routine no more than 50% of time, and in the rest of time are doing development to automate maintainance of product / increasing its reliability / observability and etc. Reacting in time to provide its scaling. In small companies/startups DevOps engineer and SRE is the same. In big companies they distinguish. In significant part of jobs SRE can be kind of just system administrator but with knowing Infrastructure tools enough to observe and troubleshoot them

Basically check % of Ops duties in a job description. It can be containing or not Software engineering duties.

[delicate bane]

interesting. sounds similar to the difference between ML Engineer vs. MLOps engineer

obv with different skill sets ofc

[buoyant seal]

Well. when i seek jobs of those category, i am trying to distinguish, which one is 100% operations duties without shred of any development and filtering them away. The left jobs are so far i encounter with at least 1/3 rate? Not really sought a lot them yet.

[summer roost]

if they don't want any shred of development, why are they looking for people with CS bachelors degrees?

[buoyant seal]

tomorrow is actually having interview for the requirements i mentioned above. They exactly look for DevOps engineer with equal amount of experience in backend development. The job description looked fun. Job duties allow to design infrastructure from zero.

[buoyant seal]

🤷‍♂️

[summer roost]

it seems pretty surprising to claim that they would rather hire fresh college graduates into junior software dev roles, train them at software dev for 3 years, and then transition them into dev ops roles and train them at operations, rather than just hiring them directly into dev ops roles and training them on both the operations aspects and the development aspects at the same time

that sounds less efficient and more costly - and what if they don't want to transition, after those few years are up? Or what if they don't enjoy the general development work?

[buoyant seal]

that's why i am dubious about those juniors roles. I expect from some software engineer to make transition gradually on its own in time.
obviously opposite, system administrator who learns to sufficient level software engineering, looks like less possible path to go smoothly.

I suspect that junior roles for this stuff, train more in requirements for operations side of duties of this role, while missing developer aspect.

[summer roost]

it seems like a very surprising claim that they'd have juniors on the team doing only operations and senior members of the team doing operations and development, rather than having the seniors training the juniors on all the types of work that the seniors do

[buoyant seal]

in result, we kind of often have people, like system administrators who wish to become software developers but kind of stuck
or software engineers who can be disliking being buried under only operations duties

some kind of balanace is necessary here. like no more than 50% of time spent to operations, if to go with Google vision about SRE

[buoyant seal]

mm yeah, something not really sums up here. We need more data 🙂

in DevOps server discord community people could answer it https://discord.gg/devops-sre-infrastructure-419745677585940482

[finite otter]

hey i dont know if i should be doing web dev or app dev , any ideas on how i can make a decision?

[buoyant seal]

This question i can answer in song: Try Everything https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6rP-YP4c5I

[buoyant seal]

regarding it btw better to adjust your views which language you learn. Some languages are better for desktop dev, some are better for web devs.
You can sort of also see, which language you like better and it can affect your choice. And just which OS you like better. Web dev usually means to deal with Linux in 98% of cases.

[finite otter]

Oooh i see thanks @buoyant seal : )

Iamma try both of them and see what I like ×D

[coarse crag]

Speaking of devops i found an internship for it actually. It's a giant e-commerce company in my country.

They seem to expect a lot from an intern but that's rather exciting.

Well, not sure if it's gonna lean more towards ops or devs, or both.

[summer roost]

the fact that there are internships for devops engineers corroborates my claim that there are junior positions for devops engineers. And those requirements list familiarity with a programming language as the first qualification, which strongly suggests they'll expect some development work out of the applicant.

[coarse crag]

(yes, i was being subtle about agreeing with your points 🤣 )

[summer roost]

I thought so, I was just being explicit 😄

[peak halo]

!otn a implicit is better than explicit

[inner wren]

:ok_hand: Added implicit-is-better-than-explicit to the names list.

[summer roost]

if they gave you a date and didn't contact you by when they said they would, it's OK to reach out again and ask for an update

[honest pivot]

Keep in mind that this is peak holiday season, and there may be a key person needed to finalize your contact who happens to be out of office or something

[delicate bane]

oh yeah a lot of peeps are OoO atm

[vernal ledge]

is it legal to children do web development in ontario

or child labor laws prevent?

[peak halo]

https://www.ontario.ca/page/minimum-age-work

[vernal ledge]

thank u!

although this doesn't help because I don't live in Ontario

[summer roost]

... then why did you ask about Ontario?

[coarse crag]

but you mentioned ontario 🤣

[vernal ledge]

oh because privacy reasons, I don't want to reveal where I live

[coarse crag]

then your question is technically useless for you? or you could've asked about the country instead (Canada)

[vernal ledge]

ok but like the rules are different in every province

[summer roost]

the answer seems to be basically the same across the country - it appears that the minimum age to do office work is 14, and there's a maximum number of hours a child can work in a week

[vernal ledge]

ok that's disappointing

[delicate bane]

[vernal ledge]

can i do work for 0 dollars for infinite hours? because i am still unemployed then but just doing some fun hobby stuff

[delicate bane]

uhhhh

[vernal ledge]

like unpaid, no contract, no legal protections

[delicate bane]

[summer roost]

so, like, child slave labor? I think that's worse than child labor

[vernal ledge]

oh bruh i didn't think about it that way

no like an unpaid internship!!!

[delicate bane]

i think you should just focus on learning at this point in your life

[peak halo]

@vernal ledge you don't have to debase yourself. if you want to gain experience, you can do portfolio projects and (much more importantly) do well in school.

[vernal ledge]

i am doing ok in school, i will be happy though if i can get some money and buy a book or tv show or movie which i like

but i guess portfolio projects are another direction to gain experience, it's kinda hard to find original ideas nowadays though and i don't think the 2000th "todo list" is competitive for a company to hire me

[delicate bane]

if youre doing well in school, have you also considered tutoring for pocket money?

[peak halo]

if your goal is to get money, what's all this about working for free?

[vernal ledge]

if i work for free, i can get experience which makes me more likely to be hired, isn't that why people do unpaid internships?

[delicate bane]

why should they hire you vs. a college graduate though?

[vernal ledge]

like my classmates at school? or just random people from around the city

[summer roost]

I don't know the rules in Canada, but in the US the rules for unpaid internships are pretty strict. Unpaid internships need to give school credits, for example. And it wouldn't be legal for the company to use an unpaid intern to replace the work of an existing employee.

ugh, meant to reply to the "unpaid internship" comment

[peak halo]

the overwhelming majority of programming internships are paid.

[vernal ledge]

oh wait the govrnment gives you credits for working? so i can use that graduate highschool?
well obviously if i was hypothetically american

[summer roost]

no, unpaid internships would generally only be available at the university level

[vernal ledge]

oh huh there are credits in uni? didn't know that I thought it is just GPA

[peak halo]

graduating from high school or a university requires that you have a certain total number of credits, and that you have certain number of credits in different areas. so doing an internship for credits doesn't necessarily help unless those credits count towards specific requirements

[vernal ledge]

ohh well yeah i need 100 credits to graduate hs, that's why i asked

[peak halo]

because you'd likely get to the minimum number of required credits while doing other requirements.

[vernal ledge]

i can't get that many purely with core courses so anything would be good

this is uh quite the slowmode duration

[peak halo]

Yes. say everything you want to say in one message. before sending a message, make sure there's nothing else you want to say. you can also edit your previous message.

[vernal ledge]

yea but I can't reply the new messages that come in

[delicate bane]

hmm if you dont already know anybody doing it in your area/know how to do it, then maybe not

[vernal ledge]

idk how to teach i would probably just make someone very sad or something i am very bad at communication

[peak halo]

only the moderators are immune to the slow mode, so that shouldn't be an issue. and I'm still writing messages slowly enough that that shouldn't be an issue.

[misty hornet]

hi guys i need help

[vernal ledge]

ok #❓｜how-to-get-help

[misty hornet]

ok

[delicate bane]

teaching is a very valuable skill to work on in a career in programming (imo)

[vernal ledge]

three people are talking at once

[vernal ledge]

ok well might a potential asd diagnosis help with that?

[delicate bane]

it is still a good skill regardless

[vernal ledge]

yeah but i can't just learn it i tried so hard to learn that but i can never learn it it is so hard i always end up losing all of friends and i never want to do it again

[coarse crag]

have you considered that you're learning how to teach in the wrong way? i agree with rex that teaching is a very valuable skill in life

when you're working, you're gonna have to collaborate with someone else. so technically you have to both teach and learn from them.

[vernal ledge]

i always tried to teach that but i can't i just can't d it i am not a nice person i can never say the nice encouraging things to make someone keep going on even when it is hard

[delicate bane]

oh @coarse crag are you going to apply to that devops position btw?

[coarse crag]

uhm.. i'm still far from that sadly 🤣 i'm still learning lots of things. i will probably apply for that in like a year or smth

[coarse crag]

well but you can learn how to say nice things... (i genuinely think it's possible to learn anything)

[delicate bane]

i think its def worth looking into. or at least trying to incorporate some cloud services at least in your next project. def valuable skills like DW always says

[vernal ledge]

no. i can't. i've tried for so many years and i just can't get it right and it's impossible and i hate it and i wish i never had to

[delicate bane]

like for example i convinced a technical stakeholder today due to being familiar with aws lambda

🥲

[coarse crag]

i agree. i think it's a good opportunity regardless of the salary

[delicate bane]

try it. i promise its worth it

[coarse crag]

damn that's pretty cool actually. and yeah definitely gonna try it

[delicate bane]

its not that impressive. lambda is like barely scratching the surface

🥲

but peeps usually dont expect DS to be able to do anything sometimes

[coarse crag]

i know but you convinced a stakeholder with it. so it's still pretty cool than not having an impact at all

[delicate bane]

yeah and now im thrown an entire project to redo an entire section my first week of work (while i still dont know the codebase). lesson here: be careful what you ask for

[coarse crag]

that.... actually sounds terrifying 🤣
oh but you can probably learn alot from it

[delicate bane]

tbh...it is

[coarse crag]

but they won't penalize you if you somehow made a mistake within the project right?