career-advice

[vernal ledge]

OH LINEAR ALGEBRA IS THAT OTHER COURSE GRADE 12 TEACHES OPTIONALLY

I don't even think the government requires school to actually teach it , mine doesn't lol

I literally can't learn one of the courses in math because it's not required by government despite curriculum is written by government

[vapid jay]

omg i love linear algebra

[blissful flume]

I'm an older person who just started learning python. Can python alone get me a new career? Or any suggestions?

[summer roost]

What's your current career?

[blissful flume]

I recently left government job as a computer specialist. No job right now. considering returning to school

i have no degree, so it is hard to get a contractor job

[summer roost]

Any single language is unlikely to get you a new career. Web dev is the easiest programming job to break into, and will likely require you to know JavaScript, HTML, and CSS, at least.

[blissful flume]

thank you for the suggestions

[summer roost]

If you can afford the time and money to get a degree, and you'll plan to be in the work force at least 10 or so years after getting the degree, it would likely pay off.

[blissful flume]

that is about my timeframe. i have about 10 - 15 years of work time left (i think)

[summer roost]

That's cutting it close enough that a degree may not have time to pay off. A boot camp might

[blissful flume]

i was looking at a local community college that has a degree program as well as a certificate program. would a certificate, combined with some certifications,(A++ etc) be a good starting point?

[summer roost]

Software dev jobs don't really tend to care about certifications at all

[blissful flume]

ahh ok

any suggestions for bootcamp? I looked at one, but it was 12k . seems like a lot for a bootcamp

i see some on udemy. i will check those out. thank you for the info

[summer roost]

I have no personal experience with it, but someone linked to https://launchschool.com/pedagogy the other day, as something between a traditional degree and a boot camp

[placid salmon]

Which of the hiring/recruiting sites work well? Indeed hasn't been working well for me

[gilded valley]

LinkedIn

[placid salmon]

Blarg. I'm not a huge fan of LinkedIn. Maybe that's the issue

[hearty island]

i go on linkedin, find the role, and then go on the company page and apply. gives me hope that maybe i'll get a higher chance of a call back

[lapis wind]

Yeah linkedin tends to be the most reliable imo

[gritty rivet]

What do you mean by "working well"? That you're not finding relevant positions to apply to? That you're applying but not getting interviews? Something else?

Indeed and LinkedIn are the best places for general job listings but it depends exactly what/where you're looking. For example python.org has certain kinds of jobs, sites like AngelList are good for startups, etc

[placid salmon]

I've had a few interviews for mid to senior positions and got through final interviews and the 'unfortunately yada yada' emails

I don't want to lose heart, but it does feel like a waste of a few months that went by way too fast

I have a feeling any of the junior positions I applied to got the 'reach a little higher' reaction lol

[gritty rivet]

I see. I doubt that Indeed has much to do with that. If you're making it that far it's promising, you just need to learn whatever you can from the process and keep trying

[placid salmon]

The last one said they'd like to see more pair programming examples or experience

I'm trying to figure out if I should be using google cloud or aws or azure. I was using django/various node packages for automation and data aggregation in the past, but that was roughly 5 years ago

[gritty rivet]

AWS is by far the most widely used so I would lean there... But once you know your way around any one of the big three it's not that hard to switch I don't think.

[delicate bane]

so do you think its more of a matter of not having relevant skills for the job that employers are looking for?

[placid salmon]

I think it's bringing up that I'm dealing with custody and eviction and that I really need to get back into work. I probably wouldn't want to work with me. I'm depressed and usually in a bad mood. Haven't seen my daughter in like 3 months and they want to know about linked lists. Answer your question?

Please don't ping me again. I'm not in a great headspace

[delicate bane]

im sorry my dude. hope things get better. sending you good vibes.

[hearty island]

i'm so genuinely confused. my recruiter called me and said oh hey i'm gonna email you today and i didn't receive an email

what the fuck is going on with HR

[peak halo]

using linkedin as a technical person is a pretty vapid experience.

[polar forge]

Will actually use this for my next class.

[placid salmon]

@peak halo it's a weird atmosphere. I feel like a lot of us get into this stuff to get paid enough for quality family time and also the ability to invest in toys that better the profession. I definitely didn't get into engineering to deep dive corporate bureaucracy in hopes of achieving synergetic alliances after work.

[covert plaza]

Don't you think freelancing would be the go to then?

[placid salmon]

@covert plaza haven't had much success, at least not locally

[covert plaza]

I too hate LinkedIn, tbh. I hate social medias in general. But I feel forced to make my LinkedIn now that I'll start looking for a job.

[placid salmon]

I'm also very depressed though. It's been a very rough 2 years

[covert plaza]

That probably doesnt help when you're selling your job.

[placid salmon]

Not at all

[final flume]

Hey everyone. So I just started learning Python and I am starting my Uni classes soon and my Uni offers 2 paths. 1 is to concentrate on Java and the other is to concentrate on C#. I have heard horror stories regarding Java? Should I go with C#. Most of the classes include Python but the final Capstone Project will require either Java or C#. I am leaning towards C# just because of the horror stories regarding Java. Would love you guys input. Thank you

[summer roost]

I doubt it matters very much, but of the two languages, C# is probably a bit nicer to use. C# and Java are very similar languages, though.

[final flume]

Yikes 😒

[vernal ledge]

i don't know what that is but ai is made with it

[final flume]

Well, I will be going with Java as it seems to be easier than C# and seems to have better performance. Hope I won't regret it

[vernal ledge]

Java? Better performance than C#? Lol

also no, this stream nonsense with lambdas that can only have final variables is not easy

[placid salmon]

@final flume java has notorious memory issues. After years of avoiding c#, I would go c# between those two

[vernal ledge]

but it seems like not understood that, sorry i didnt explain good enough

[placid salmon]

I upgraded my desktop from like 8gigs to 32gigs a decade ago over a java app

To be fair it was cataloging roughly 25k large text files, but other services doing similar work in other languages tend to handle the mess a lot better

[frosty terrace]

for my github, should i have my real name as the username, or is it fine to have a random username.

[true harness]

doesn't matter, as long as it's not explicit or something dumb

[frosty terrace]

alright thanks

weird question, someone offered me a job, probably lower than wanted like months ago, I see the job post is back up, would it be good idea to contact them again?

[covert plaza]

If it interests you, yes. You have more to offer, and chances are that they may be giving more too.

And if it is something that you really want, make sure to point out how much you learned.

[frosty terrace]

alright ill give that a try, thanks

[final flume]

@placid salmon @vernal ledge Thanks for the input. I will keep that in mind.

[frosty terrace]

At this point I think ill just try to be a data analyst, any tips to get such a position? I know Excel, VBA, SQL, Python and have a bachelor's in business management, I assume that's enough to land a job for such a position?

[delicate bane]

do you have any familiarity with a data viz software? tableau or powerbi?

[frosty terrace]

nope, how can i get the training with those

[delicate bane]

make a project using one or the other. after that, i would go ahead and apply and see feedback afterwards

[frosty terrace]

Tableau I believe costs money to use, which is lame

[delicate bane]

theres tableau public

[frosty terrace]

cool, ill take a look at it

[delicate bane]

good luck my dude

[frosty terrace]

thanks

[vast shoal]

Both Java and C# have good performance, generally speaking. As godlygeek pointed out, they are quite similar, so I wouldn't say that one is noticeably easier than the other.

[smoky quest]

That hasn't been true for the past ~15 years

[vernal ledge]

well the gc causes insane lagspikes that can bring an application to its knees, i have experience about this

[smoky quest]

The main factor there will be your geographical position. Some areas have more jobs in java than c# and some other areas the opposite. So I would recommend to look up indeed/linkedin to get a sense of it

[smoky quest]

Again, not even remotely true for the past 15 years. And that was only if you run on >32Gb heaps

[vernal ledge]

I have not been born for 15 years, much less been developing using Java. I'm fairly certain that's not true.

[smoky quest]

I mean, I have and have dealt with it 😉

that's the power of being old

[final flume]

I live 45 minutes away from Silicon Valley and can move there anytime due to job relocation or something

I might just go with Java due to Google being nearby and trying my luck with them

[summer roost]

in all seriousness, the languages are very similar

learning one will teach you 80% of the other

[final flume]

Yeah I did notice that and picking one should help me learn the other one

[smoky quest]

yeah, no one uses c# in the bay area

[final flume]

but which one would be easier to learn. Python's syntax seems really fun and I am able to do basic things with it after 2 days of study from no programming background

[final flume]

welp! that settles it I guess lul 😄

Anyways thanks a ton. I will go to bed. Thanks a lot for clearing things up for me. Really appreciate it

[smoky quest]

if you start from scratch, python is not a bad choice either. It's also a very popular language and you can do as much in it as in any other languages.
There are other reasons people would use some other language at some point, but many startups have started with it (and sometimes still heavily relying on it), and many programmers would use a combo of python and some other language to complement each other

[delicate wren]

how to get a job with pytohn

[stoic timber]

there are maaaany ways, but this question needs more info.
Like what is your experience level ?, what do you like to code ?

[smoky quest]

Hi!
This is not a shitposting channel

[smoky quest]

Hi!
It depends on your situation.
The most common route is to go for a CS degree.
There are other options such as bootcamps or self taught, but they aren't as popular and won't give you the same opportunities

[ivory timber]

in coding one of the most necessary skills is problem solving, however problem solving is a skill that can degrade over time because of a lack of practice , therefore I'm here to ask what do you do/recommend to sharpen problem solving skills?

[smoky quest]

Having projects is a great way to do just that. It's fun, helps you build a portfolio and learn new things

[viscid wharf]

I need a web framework, which is industrially popular for machine learning projects. Please suggest which framework should I use?

[smoky quest]

django, flask or fastapi are popular framework. Although that's also out of scope of this channel 😉

[lime bramble]

Hi guys how to know certified company

[smoky quest]

Hi!
Can you expand on what you mean?

[gilded valley]

All 3 that recursive mentioned do get used for it, but by now FastAPI is pretty much the most popular by a long way. #data-science-and-ml is probably the better place to ask for more details

[outer saffron]

bru

[high juniper]

Hi , my sincere apology for this i by mistakenly post this here , I want to post this on another place

[twin nacelle]

I guess when I’m older I wanna do cyber security I’m currently studying for when I’m eligible for my sans and I wanna become a pen tester or maybe first join the military in cyber warfare

[stark wraith]

Hey

Data scientist is good or qa testing?

[buoyant seal]

Data scientist sounds cooler to me. It requires high training in math / analytic development / being software developer at same time
i think QA testing is a dead end career, not worthy to pursue. Acceptable only as temporal solution to step a foot into IT, but not great for career in long term. even in short term kind of bad

[stark wraith]

Data scientist in media or entertainment industry 200-500 or QA testing in networking virtualisation industry 1000-5000 employees

[buoyant seal]

i more or less don't care about size of company. To be honest i would not mind quiting current 1000 employees company and working in a company with less than 100 people as next one.
I am autonomous enough unit to work in any way.

[median hill]

nt

[buoyant seal]

in small companies a greater impact can be achieved on development processes, and i can try getting my hands on choosing technologies process 🤤 Well, and it is easier to get hands on architecturing a project.

[silver sequoia]

hey guys

did you have any idea about ?? django rest auth ??.

[buoyant seal]

https://www.django-rest-framework.org/api-guide/authentication/ pretty much options are described here for specific integrations options

[silver sequoia]

@buoyant seal man i am asking for django rest auth ?? not django token auth ??.

i think u have been mistaken ?? @buoyant seal

[buoyant seal]

re read stuff in a link again, or rephrase your question to indicate why it could be asking different thing

[silver sequoia]

i am asking for this man have you ever use this ?? ..

https://django-rest-auth.readthedocs.io/en/latest/

i am just stuck at some point ??...

[buoyant seal]

https://pypi.org/project/django-rest-auth/ last time updated in Apr 1 2019 year. And its build is broken and stays broken for a year https://travis-ci.org/github/Tivix/django-rest-auth. I don't see a reason why it should be used at all. You are shooting into your own legs with using it.

[silver sequoia]

it means you didn't know ??.

about this ??.. ok fine ....

[silver sequoia]

🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦

[vapid jay]

hey guys, is there anyone who is doing their masters as an RA here?

[buoyant seal]

What is RA

[vapid jay]

Research Assistant, sorry should have been more clear from the start

[buoyant seal]

Feel free to add country origins in addition. Highly likely implemention details of your educational program is highly influenced by that

[vapid jay]

ah noted, maybe I should fill out my entire question. Thanks Darkwind

[vapid jay]

**So I'm looking for advice on going forward with a master's degree. **
TLDR: I want to try getting a master's degree in either ( robotics / A. I ), preferably in countries like ( New Zealand, Singapore, Japan ). But since Universities are expensive, I am hoping to become a Research Assistant, and am seeking advice on this

Currently, I finished my Bachelor's Degree in Mechatronics in Malaysia (not Malaysian Citizen). I started the program hoping I would be building *sick *robots but that hasn't happened 😓 . So for the past one year, I have been learning python and ML concurrently with my final year project. Really enjoyed the process as I find it rewarding.

Now, I want to continue with this momentum that I have and get a Master's degree, I found on reddit that you can waive off your tuition and even get a small salary by being a teaching assistant or a research assistant. The research assistant looks very attractive to me, since I may get hands on with the research. But what I know right now about all this is a high level overview and would like to ask more questions about it to an actual teaching assistant or research assistant.

[buoyant seal]

are you not afaird of higher math? (statistics / linear algebra / regression analysis / differential equations and etc)

[vapid jay]

I actually like math XD.

[buoyant seal]

great. Then you have open for you a full path of Data Scientist (Learning ML is only part of being full fledged DS if i get it right) Python is kind of main tool here with its related DS ecosystem

[vapid jay]

I definitely was thinking of data science before but I want to get more into reinforcement learning because of its possible application for robotics. Data Scientist seems more on supervised learning, which i don't hate, but...

[buoyant seal]

https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/data-science-learning-roadmap/ consider checking Data Science roadmaps
Getting your hands dirty on projects in https://kaggle.com/

[buoyant seal]

also kind of curious roadmap here https://github.com/MrMimic/data-scientist-roadmap

[vapid jay]

this looks very comprehensive, thank you for the share Darkwind

[buoyant seal]

there is more than ML to DS

[vapid jay]

well, that's true, I guess then I should change my question to reconsider Data Science to catch more people on the discussion

I want to try getting a master's degree in either ( robotics / A. I / Data Science), preferably in countries like ( New Zealand, Singapore, Japan ). But since Universities are expensive, I am hoping to become a Research Assistant, and am seeking advice on this

[turbid bobcat]

Kind of a weird place to ask.

But I'm looking for another backend language, other than python. I feel the need for a type safe language. Any suggestions?

[near ocean]

C#? Not really on topic, but its a good choice

[turbid bobcat]

Been told it doesnt run on Linux servers or something like that

But it's a strong contender for me, because I could do game dev too

[turbid bobcat]

Would also be lovely if Python had a typescript analogue

[peak halo]

even if you had mandatory type hinting, duck typing would make that difficult. and libraries like pandas can make it impossible to know what the type of something will be.

[near ocean]

Dotnet is crossplatform nowadays

[frosty terrace]

So i found that my state provides certificates for skills, such as programming. Are these certificates good to add? They are provided by skillsoft.

[turbid bobcat]

I think I'm going for C# then

[frosty terrace]

I removed all my certificates from my resume and im wondering if that was a bad idea

[true harness]

generally, they are not useful

[frosty terrace]

Any difference saying HTML vs HTML5, should I list both?

[whole wasp]

Guys I got a job at my old company same one. The only thing is I had a 6 month gap and I’m going back to the same company is that weird? Like how would I put that in my resume when going applying to new jobs in the future or would I not mention the 6 month gap at all?

[frosty terrace]

don't mention it unless they bring it up, unless you're being offered more or a new position, I would never go back to the company you left, mainly because there was a reason you left in the first place, but that's just me

[vestal jolt]

how much one should spend on ug degree?

[whole wasp]

I didn’t leave they let me go because I wasn’t able to commute to the office

And isn’t it a good thing that I’m rehirable that basically shows it wasn’t a bad reason that I was let go

[frosty terrace]

sounds like a terrible work environment, but if you're fine traveling, then go for it

[whole wasp]

It’s once a week

[frosty terrace]

to be fired because you had to show up once a week, is a bit ridiculous. I personally wouldn't want to work with someone like that

[whole wasp]

also, I am kind of desperate atm as I have been applying to jobs for many months and getting just rejections. But as I said I’m just trying to figure out in the future would I put this company twice on my resume or just ignore the 6 month gap?

[frosty terrace]

if you're desperate than go for it, but i'd still be searching ocne you go back

[whole wasp]

Ya I’ll do that but I’m wondering in my resume what would I do? Would I list the job twice or just ignore the gap?

And what would background check or employer say in the future for dates of employment

[frosty terrace]

I'd ignore the gap and when they question it you just explain it. Wasting space and time posting the job twice on your resume

[whole wasp]

Ya that makes sense the only thing is what could I potentially say why I was let go for 6 months and then hired back again I mean on one hands it basically means I wasn’t fired and not rehireable so that’s good so what could be a good reason. Idk if saying something like I just didn’t have a car to go to the office and it took me 6 months to find one?

[frosty terrace]

Blame COVID, lol, honestly most of my issues on my resume actually are due to COVID

[whole wasp]

6 months tho? Would I say I had Covid?

[true harness]

...for 6 months? what's the point of lying again?

[whole wasp]

Well that’s what I’m trying to figure out what do I say for 6 months

[frosty terrace]

was the position a remote one or hybrid?

Also why couldn't you commute to work?

[glad shuttle]

:v how many people in this chat have gotten jobs in tech without following the traditional route of getting a certificate

just curious : p

[frosty terrace]

Are you saying that certificates are a good idea? I keep getting back and forth answers for this. I don't have a computer science degree. I'm not going back to do so, because it'll take too long and I need to pay my bills. So I'd think, certificates are the next best choice. I work on them for the time I do have and hope it'll mean something. My state is covering the costs for these courses, so I feel like taking advantage of it. However everyone keeps saying they're useless and a bachelor's degree is all you need. However, I've yet to get any programming jobs.

[glad shuttle]

i c

[glad shuttle]

how long has it been since you started coding

[frosty terrace]

3 years ago

[glad shuttle]

damn that's a long time

[frosty terrace]

I learned it from my previous job where I got paid to do nothing, hoping this knowledge would mean something, unfortunately no one cares

[glad shuttle]

what do you specialize in?

[frosty terrace]

my current field or my programming skills?

[glad shuttle]

ye. like front end, back end, full stack, ai. which specialty?

[frosty terrace]

full stack, I prefer backend

[glad shuttle]

hmm i c. u do open source contributions?

[true harness]

that's very much an untraditional route. traditional would be through a CS degree

[glad shuttle]

:v how many people in this chat have gotten jobs in tech without following the traditional route of getting a certificate i mean i did say the traditional route of getting a certificate

[true harness]

did you mean CS degree when you said "certificate"?

[glad shuttle]

yep

[coarse crag]

i think degree should be differentiated from certificate. when you say certificate, everyone would think it's something like from udemy, coursera, redhat, comptia, or aws etc

[glad shuttle]

oh nah i am not talkin about that. just meant cs degree

[coarse crag]

i see

[true harness]

there certainly are some people that are able to get a job without a degree. for example if you have experience in another field that might be useful, or something like that. it's also reasonable to get a swe job without specifically a CS degree, but rather one in a different stem field

[glad shuttle]

hmm wat about contribution to open source then your own open source projects and stuff. do these help?

[coarse crag]

personally i only know one person who managed to become a senior software engineer without getting a college degree. he went into community college but dropped out. but it was exchanged with 10 - 18 hours a day of studying to get to where he is today.

it is tough

[glad shuttle]

hmm i c

[raven rain]

I don't have a degree, but I did have to do work on (mostly small) freelance projects for about 7 years before landing my first full-time programming job

[glad shuttle]

oh

[coarse crag]

yeah, i think projects would help alot

and, not just any random project, the employer should be impressed with your projects so that they will overlook the fact that you don't have a degree.

[frosty terrace]

From experience, seems like they see your current work history, education, and they dont bother beyond that.

I'm almost certain they see work history and be like "Why is this guy applying for this position" and then they look for the next one. If you don't include a work history, then they think you've never worked before so they also avoid your resume. You can't win, lol

[true harness]

at least for junior positions, it's probably not that unreasonable to have no work experience

[glad shuttle]

oh i c

i mean ye wouldn't u wanna start off as junior dev first ?

[coarse crag]

yeah, i think that if the junior applicant showed extraordinary skills, it is still likely to get the job without a college degree.

[fallen badger]

hey guys i am not old enough to work but next year i have to find a uni i wanna go to and apply (school makes me do that) and i have rly thought of anything yet. i rly like computers and programming and i thought something along the lines could anyone help me a tiny bit

[coarse crag]

btw, the one who i mentioned to get a job without a degree. he is an incredibly intelligent person and he also knows how to get what he wants. i just think i should mention that.

[glad shuttle]

hmm alright thanks i just needed to get some info

[frosty terrace]

for the ATS, is repeating a keyword multiple times better than only once?

[buoyant seal]

Well. I was invited to go to interview with doubled(+100-160%) salary from current one
And with responsibilities I wished to have in wet dreams it seems so.

I did not really wish to change a job yet. I am just 4 months in current position, but I guess from this level of interview inivitation I can't really withold, can I?

The only thing that slightly questions me, it will move me into DevOps. While I wished to remain as python backend dev for few years more for my career plans

i thought to work fully in devops positions few years later. Hmm

[coarse crag]

that definitely sounds tempting

[buoyant seal]

This is DevOps infrastructure position while being specifically mentioned that i am required being python developer for that.
And i am invited to design their infrastructure from scratch using the best available modern available technologies
It is kind of really tempting

Every infrastructure guy wishes to use latest available best tech

[coarse crag]

that sounds really awesome tho

[buoyant seal]

Although checking their requirements, i think i will not pass it

[coarse crag]

why not just try it out first?

[buoyant seal]

I have dreadful skill gap in my infrastructure side. I don't have enough exp with major big three cloud providers
And ideally it must be present in order to make qualified decisions regarding infrastructure

[coarse crag]

oooo i c i c

[buoyant seal]

Yeah, sure, why not?

Well. This clearly shows me what i need to learn in order to obtain job like this in the future.
In worst case scenario i will gather more throughly everything i need for that to get hired for stuff like that later

[coarse crag]

yeah that's nice. i also found an interesting internship position for devops but they seem to want the applicant to have some high level skills in devops (besides, i have no skill yet). i kinda know how you feel. "i hope this job/similar job will be available by the time i learned the things i need"

[coarse crag]

i can only wish you for the best. good luck Darkwind!

[vapid jay]

hi

what will it take for me to make
30$/hr in python

[buoyant seal]

totally depends on your country. in US/first world country you would have to be just graduadted, and you get even more?
in third world country, well... you need to reach middle - senior(probably more senior) level of skills to achieve this salary.

[vapid jay]

in the usa, as a freelancer

[buoyant seal]

with what educational background and previous work experience?

[vapid jay]

bro I am 13

0 work experience

[coarse crag]

people will definitely recommend you to focus on studying at school. i'm not from usa, not even sure if 13 y.o is allowed to work. but it's unreasonable for anyone to hire a 13 yo developer when there are tons of older and more skillful freelance developers in their 20s (or even 30s) with proficient skills in software development. (especially with your background and work experience)

17-18 y.o is a reasonable age to start looking up for freelance jobs if you've built up the necessary skills and knowledge. (at least you won't be seen as "a kid who knows nothing but wants to work")

[limber copper]

LMAO WHAT

time to hack me a country

[peak halo]

more like time to make on-topic comments in our wonderful career discussion channel

[limber copper]

sorry

[unkempt flicker]

Is this cirrculum strong enough to foundation in CS ..in junior and senior year.
I want to show this skills in my profile ...I wanna pursue my UG in USA

[peak halo]

It looks like this jumps from programming basics straight to AI, without spending any time on pure CS. So no.

[hearty island]

^

[unkempt flicker]

It's basic things about the AI and python...even i learn in depth also ..in my 1st year to UG they will teach me from basic

[gritty rivet]

Universities you apply to are unlikely to look at this. It's going to be more about SAT scores, admission essays and all of that stuff. In the US you aren't even necessarily admitted to a specific major

[peak halo]

The question was if that would give you a foundation in CS. And the answer is no, because CS is not a superset of programming and AI.

[unkempt flicker]

Yeah...I mean I can show in the profile that..the course that I want to select I'm very disperate and interested in and I'm doing it from my high school ...like building projects, And somewhere. Competition

[unkempt flicker]

yeah correct ..I'm working to my resume

[unkempt flicker]

@peak haloCan this match with my profile?

[open ivy]

Job requirement: "Fluency in Unix, standard bioinformatics tools (Python, R, or equivalent), and a programming language (C/C++, Java)". How are the defining "programming language"?

[true harness]

they're listed in the parentheses

[peak halo]

The person who wrote that might be a non technical person who doesn't actually know what programming languages are. But I would infer that you have to know at least one of C/++ and Java.

[open ivy]

Makes sense. Nevermind that Python basically has C++ through Cython etc.

[true harness]

it...doesn't though. you're not writing cpp when you write cython

[gilded valley]

I think a reasonable interpretation might just be that they want someone who can use python or R as a programming language rather than just a statistics/bioinformatics toolkit.

Familiarity with OOP and software architecture in python or R might get you through the door

[near remnant]

i've been learning python and backend stuff for many months now and just finished an 1200 pages long book about python so idk, im scared

maybe I will learn most of it on-the-job? i feel like I've done what I could

[stoic timber]

if you were accepted for that internship, it must mean the company believes in you. What can you make sofar ?

[near remnant]

I've made a full-stack project with python, django, html, css, bootstrap, javascript, docker, postgresql. it has all sort of things, ORM querying, filtering, login, etc..before that, I was mainly focusing on the frontend side, I switched to only python 8 months ago. After I completed this project, I started working on my theoretical knowledge like reading books about concurrency, python, advanced concepts in OOP, etc.

[frosty terrace]

I've been contacted by a company that provides training but locks me in for 2 years with a contract... good idea?

[near remnant]

Only if you dont have to pay for anything

[smoky quest]

I forgot your situation, but if you are graduating, that's BS and would gfto.
If you are self taught, it might be a worthwhile exchange

[frosty terrace]

Doesn't seem like I have to pay for anything, I got a meeting next week. The complaints I saw on glassdoor is that they lock you for 2 years, pay is starting around 50k which isn't great, but isn't terrible, and they increase it overtime.. guess ill see what they say

[stoic timber]

I don't know the currency but 50k and a free training sounds great to me (from the Netherlands)

[frosty terrace]

yeah... may be my only opportunity

[near remnant]

Can anyone say something to my writings?

[gilded valley]

depends a lot on the area - but 50k is massively below a typical software developer salary

oh wait - I'm unfairly assuming US

[frosty terrace]

Yes... but so far, it's been so long and I didn't even get one software developer opportunity

[gilded valley]

being tied into a job for 2 years is an insane opportunity cost

[frosty terrace]

what is the lowest title for a programmer, like what can I start with just to get into the industry

[gilded valley]

aiming for the floor is not a good idea - it doesn't make your chances of landing a job much higher, but it does make it more likely that the job you get will be shit

[smoky quest]

Can you remind me of your situation?

nevermind, found your resume in the history 😉

[frosty terrace]

I have a business management degree, I went from construction, to sales, to logistics, to pricing analyst. Now I'm thinking data analyst, but right now the job market is dead or no one wants me. I honestly prefer using Python or C#, don't even care doing what, I just want to continue to be better at it by doing it.

[smoky quest]

Have you had any interviews or people are just ignoring your applications?
I also assume you have spammed any job ad with the words associate or entry level?

[frosty terrace]

No bites at all, and yes I spammed all associate and entry level positions

[near remnant]

It should be youe CV, i also have economics degrees and I got plenty interviews

[gilded valley]

you're also in a different country

[smoky quest]

Yeah, none of your experience include any dev skills.

Are your projects at the bottom in a good shape? Do they have tests, readme, comments, etc. ?

[near remnant]

True

[delicate bane]

the local job market is probably a factor like what charlie is alluding to

[frosty terrace]

But... "there are more jobs more than ever" they say.... which I'm realizing it isn't the case. Even for my current position, finding another I'm getting no responses.

[smoky quest]

<@&831776746206265384> spam

[smoky quest]

You need some stronger projects.
If you compare with https://roadmap.sh/, they barely scratch the surface

[frosty terrace]

the thing that is conflicting is that if I will make stronger projects, I would sell them... rather than publicly give them away

[smoky quest]

these are completely unrelated concerns

you can demonstrate your skills without building an actual sellable software

Right now, your projects don't demonstrate skills beyond the intro tutorial of django. And your resume does not demonstrate any CS skills either. I believe that's why you don't get replies.
You did spend a lot of time on the css/html, but that's not what a reviewer would care about

That said, if you can build a software that can make you money, that doesn't sound like a bad problem to have. But that's a whole other thing and not something I would recommend if you don't have experience there

[frosty terrace]

But those games I made are fully functional on all mobile phones. Not difficult to just put it on the app store and put some advertisements. Just seems so demanding to get hired that I'd be self-employed before I get hired, why would for someone when I could then do it on my own. And it's just a junior position, just overly demanding.

[smoky quest]

I am not trying to diminish what you did, and I am saying this in the most caring but also honest way: I did not see the level of complexity in the code that would match what other entry level candidates would present.
So I wouldn't say it's overly demanding

[delicate bane]

did you see the article dowcet posted about the job market?

[frosty terrace]

i would like to see an example of someone's code who's a junior and has the level complexity of my apps. Sure I have some that are not great, just messing around with stuff, but others I've worked on for over a year and I'd doubt many reach that difficulty

[delicate bane]

#career-advice message

[frosty terrace]

I think in my own opinion, "game apps" aren't interesting enough for recruiters, but I've seen junior projects that were very low quality and complexity and these people were hired.

[smoky quest]

I would love to share that but I don't have anything available I can share.

That said, I did provide you my professional assessment, as someone who interview, hire and mentor people at all levels.
You are free to ignore it and think you are that good, but I would also encourage you to reflect on it and seek other advice. As is, I do feel your ego is going to prevent you from finding a job.

[near remnant]

The best python book I've read in a long time: https://www.amazon.com/Structures-Algorithms-Python-Michael-Goodrich/dp/1118290275

[frosty terrace]

If you ever get a project for a junior position that is outstanding, please pass it along, I really am willing to see what you're looking out for. I'll look up tests and try to apply them, but outside of that, I don't know what else I'm missing. My website has a database for my news section, but there is very little I need a database for in regards to all my projects.

And as for my web app, those missing pictures and other neat stuff I don't care to add yet, I've seen people do FARRRRRRRRRR worse and got hired. I don't just randomly do things if I don't think it wont get me considered.

[frosty terrace]

That makes the most sense, because as I said, I can't even find a job for my current position.

[smoky quest]

Unfortunately, I cannot share any info about the candidates I am interacting with.

But you are touching on a great point about the database. Interactions with a DB is a very important skill for a backend. It can get complicated and there is a lot to learn about. So if you don't have any project that leverage it, you should find something that does.
A typical example is an ecommerce website where users can create accounts, log in, browse products, search products (by keywords, tags, etc.), sort products, add them to a basket prior to checking out (no need to have an actual check out). That could involve caches, databases, APIs, auth, message/event brokers, etc. and can go pretty far

[gilded valley]

If you are applying to data analytics roles, try to poke at Tableau or Looker or something like that

and probably build a small dash app visualising some data - this kind of dashboard building is pretty standard for an analyst workflow

[frosty terrace]

Yeah I'm learning Tableau right now, somewhat similar to excel pivot tables

[gilded valley]

I'm currently helping interview people for a senior data analytics role. The key asks are:

• basic Python
• Solid SQL
• Solid dashboarding ability with experience in one of: Plotly/Dash, Tableau, or R Shiny
• basic stats

by basic python - I mean the only thing that is expected is that they can make basic REST API calls, wrangle data in a pandas datraframe, and possibly some more advanced stuff like experience with web scraping

[frosty terrace]

never used pandas

[gilded valley]

You definitely should pick it up

[astral ermine]

I'm interested.
Where can I send my resume?

[frosty terrace]

must I know pandas, numpy, and matplotlib?

[gilded valley]

To be clear, I'm just helping out my team with the technical python/SQL questions as a secondary interviewer. Just brought it up to illustrate the asks that are typical in an analytics role, not as anything close to recruitment

[gilded valley]

If you want to do anything data related you need pandas, numpy, and some way to visualise data - seaborn, plotly, bokeh, plotnine etc would all be fine

[frosty terrace]

I was gonna create a neat app for this for stocks

anyone know what slack is? being invited to it by some employer

[delicate bane]

communication software. think of discord but more focused on threads and professional

[frosty terrace]

I've just saw this. You're asking a junior developer to create an ecommerce website? Imagine the cost, time, and liability for something that is pointless for a junior to do, just to prove they can. I mean that's asking for too much and I hope you're not expecting that out of junior developers who are trying to make their way into the field. That's not a one person task and awfully risky.

[smoky quest]

I am expecting them to be able to demonstrate basic DB access and algorithms. A fake ecommerce is a great way to go about it 😉

[frosty terrace]

Basic... like you mean, creating a post that automatically adds it to the news section? Login, pretty easy too, but if you know how to do the previous, you can easily implement that too

[smoky quest]

Exactly!
The problem is none of your repos have demonstrated any of it

[coarse crag]

but most junior developer applicants probably have basic db and algorithms skill right? so in the end, the one who will get the job is the one who has built alot of stuff

[frosty terrace]

literally had that though

[smoky quest]

Where?

[balmy mural]

Building a basic ecommerce website was something we did at uni in a webdev module. I really don't think it's a tall ask to see that in a project portfolio

[frosty terrace]

News section, I can add a post and it will add it automatically, obviously access only to me.

[smoky quest]

As an interviewer, I want to see joins, I want to see schema design (so more than one table), I want to see some indices

And as a self-taught, you have even more to prove than someone with a CS degree.

[frosty terrace]

my entire mobile app is consisting of indices....

[smoky quest]

which one? Maybe I missed it

[frosty terrace]

Code.Net one

and joins also

[smoky quest]

where is the db?

[frosty terrace]

no need for a database, not storing enough information for it to require it

[smoky quest]

when I meant indices, I meant indexing in DBs

[smoky quest]

For instance on https://roadmap.sh/backend , related to the databases you will see transactions, ORMs, ACID, indexing, etc.

you would not need to be an expert, but you should be able to talk about them and demonstrate some of them

[jaunty cradle]

how do you guys answer the "why do you like programming" question?

[smoky quest]

You answer it truthfully. There is no right or wrong answer to that.

[coarse crag]

isn't it rather personal?

[near ocean]

Never been asked a question like that

[jaunty cradle]

im not sure why I like it

[smoky quest]

so why are you interviewing and looking for a job in the field?

[frosty terrace]

I get that, but I'm not using big datasets. In which dictionaries are the better and faster solution, right? I mean if I'm making a game where I only store a few bits of information, why would I use a database? Wouldn't that just prove I don't know what I'm doing?

[smoky quest]

Then you aren't working on the right project to demonstrate your skills to get hired

[coarse crag]

if i were asked that question, i will probably say that programming job is pretty comfy and the field has a decent future growth and salary. and tbh, maybe i would say smth like "i can't imagine doing anything else" (i really can't)

[smoky quest]

On a related note, databases aren't necessarily required to store big datasets. They are used to store all sorts of data. And while dictionnaries are useful, they aren't even close to the power of a database and would not survive a restart

[frosty terrace]

I figured that, which is what I said before. You're not looking for just apps or code, you're looking to see if I can create something that I will be doing.

[smoky quest]

yep. I am looking for demonstrated skills relevant to the job

[jaunty cradle]

Oh true talk about how I've been wanting to do it for ages

[frosty terrace]

exactly, that I can understand, though kinda annoying because I was told "make a game" "make an app", now it's "make something relevant to the job"

[smoky quest]

By the same token, showing a backend when applying for a frontend position would be irrelevant. And vice versa

[coarse crag]

oh i think i would also expand on the fact that it's endless learning. i honestly can't imagine being in a stagnant position doing repetitive things. i think it's reasonable that as a human we want to keep growing and learning new things. it's in our genes. at least, in tech you can explore lots of stuff and play around with new tech when you're bored. it's kinda exciting compared to other jobs don't you think? (let's just ignore the fact that handling bugs can really stress you out 🤣 )

[thorn meadow]

hey I wanna work in some computer field but im not sure what, all I know is that you need a computer engineer diploma then you dive into a specific section

[jaunty cradle]

Yeah thats another reason the idea of a stagnant mind numbing job for 40 years sounded like hell to me

[coarse crag]

"computer field" is very broad maybe you can look up on google what subfields there are in computer subject. and see if any of those interests you.

[coarse crag]

FIELDS OF COMPUTER

computer science
artificial intelligence
software engineering
data science
computer architecture
computer engineering
computer programming
human computer interaction
computing
computational science
computer graphics
bioinformatics
computer networks
machine learning
quantum computing
computational physics
computational chemistry
computational biology
computational engineering
computational complexity theory

i'm quite lost too cause almost all of them looks fun, but at least i know i'm interested in software development/engineering. (you kinda need cs knowledge for software engineering tho)

[thorn meadow]

computational physics hell no 😹

i hate physics with a passion

[coarse crag]

computer algorithms
data structure
computer vision
concurrency
distributed computation
parallel computation
database systems
machine vision
natural language processing
network design
programming languages
robotics
theory of computation
modeling data and information processes
software engineering and development
operating systems
cryptography
cybersecurity

this is more about cs subjects, but they are a combination of cs topics or specializations (such as nlp, robotics, etc)

[thorn meadow]

i’ve always had an interest in cyber security but I heard it doesn’t pay that well

[coarse crag]

i'm pretty sure you'll find at least one of them interesting. when i was at your position, i googled them, what they are about, what will you do in that field, and career opportunities, salary, etc

[thorn meadow]

yeah i might do the same so i have a good idea of what they do

also you need dash 1 math for any computer diploma right?

[coarse crag]

i am not sure about that, i think cybersecurity is relatively better than other "theory-oriented fields" since they don't make as much money as more practical field like web dev or security

[coarse crag]

i have no idea about that, different country has different requirements.

[coarse crag]

if you care about the pay. maybe you should look up on the demands for these fields. the more demand, the better opportunities and pay you will get. it's kinda like, you will only get paid if you have things that other people need. cybersecurity is quite useful imo, but not sure what other people in this server has to say about cybersecurity.

[thorn meadow]

ah i see, thanks for your help

[lapis gull]

I don’t plan on going into computer science but finance and law what Python skills will help me I have a minor in computer science in my undergrad degree thank you for your time

[rapid scroll]

I work in a computer lab at a tech company that tests hardware using internal programs. For our purposes, when we get a new system we must install an OS, register each system to the testing software, apply a bunch of settings/properties to it, then register it on another internal service with similar, if not the same, information.

I got pretty tired of installing an OS and inputting all the information on our UI over and over across hundreds of systems, so I began to look into how I might be able to automate the process. I ended up building a Flask application that uses Ansible to run a playbook using the webform data as variables to install the OS and run the Python automation I created communicating between the API's. (Both programs that we use have an accessible REST API). Authentication to the program was done via LDAP credentials and authentication to the API's it's connecting to is done by asking for API keys upon login, then checking those are valid.

After building this program I realized I want to start working towards a software development career. I feel I understand Python/OOP pretty well, but as of now I don't have a public portfolio, as this program I've built I'm unable to share the source code or any pictures of it according to a confidentiality agreement I signed when I got hired.

I want to start doing freelance work or try to get a remote position somewhere, should I include this program in a resume? I feel that having a written description would be a terrible way to try and show an employer what I'm capable of doing.

One obvious solution would be to create a program that I make to be my "show off" program, public with source code available, but I'm not a creative person so I don't have many ideas for that unfortunately. Does anyone suggest where I should go from here? Should I continue to try and think of a project, or should I just try to recreate something that's already been made? Feeling pretty stuck here, any advice would be appreciated

[delicate bane]

cybersec specialists make a lot of money in the states

[coarse crag]

yeah, not sure if it's the same in other countries, but i know the pay is not bad.

[smoky quest]

You should definitely put this in your resume!

[serene kindle]

you don't need to make any public code to show off

[dreamy spade]

What evidence can I provide proof without a degree?

Because job postings in my region require a degree so it's difficult

[smoky quest]

Having demonstrated skills in some projects would be one way

[dreamy spade]

I ended up building a Flask application that uses Ansible to run a playbook using the webform data as variables to install the OS and run the Python automation I created communicating between the API's. (Both programs that we use have an accessible REST API). Authentication to the program was done via LDAP credentials and authentication to the API's it's connecting to is done by asking for API keys upon login, then checking those are valid.

I want do to something like this where making a program enables something to do on the computer easier.

[sonic grove]

has anyone got a job for web scraping/data engeering in python. if so what experience and/or projects did you show.

[vapid jay]

hey guys, so if I make a cool project on github as a research idea, and it gets used or copied by others, would the github repository validate that the original work was from me in legal terms?

[coarse crag]

Did you use license? Not quite familiar with it, but it exists and if you really made those yourself then you should create license for that project.

[vapid jay]

I did use MIT license, would this be enough tho?

[coarse crag]

Well if you allow them to use it for commercial use, then sure. I think it's probably enough. But maybe you can wait for others' response.

[vapid jay]

alright, thanks @coarse crag

[coarse crag]

I did not help much but you're welcome 👍

[smoky quest]

That's a question for a lawyer.
It also depends on the country and what you expect to get out of that proof of having written it first.

Given repositories could be force pushed, I wouldn't hold my breathe, but it can help.
An old school way is to print/burn a cd/use a usb key with your source code and mail it to yourself as a certified mail and to not open it.

[ivory sluice]

woah that's super old school

[smoky quest]

In practice, it's not that useful though because:

• If it's that valuable -> don't publish it publicly. Keep it in a SaaS on the server side
• Everyone want to implement their own ideas. They won't care about yours
• If it's about patents, in the USA it's based on first to file, not first to invent

[wispy terrace]

Good evening team!
I have an important question. I was wondering what everyone thinks of Mimo Dev. Should I apply for the course they offer?

[vapid jay]

thank you answering, I think I will try the mail one. I was wondering on this because I want to have a github repository to make a Reinforcement Learning Project and use it to attract/impressive professors and get some help on admission. But it would have to be a very new problem that I am trying to solve.

[dark arrow]

fwiw commit dates can be spoofed

[smoky quest]

yeah, I wouldn't worry too much about it. These types of projects are still a very long way from monetization

[vapid jay]

alright, I will try it out. nothing good comes out not doing anything. Thanks recursive_error

[shrewd prawn]

I want to learn sql injection

[stoic timber]

that's not something we can help with here, but if you meant you want to learn to protect yourself against sql injection, you can ask in #databases

[acoustic trout]

Any good python courses?

[near ocean]

!resources Many

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[vapid jay]

hi

[gritty rivet]

Hi, if you have a career question you're in the right place, otherwise check out #python-discussion or an off-topic channel

[spiral swift]

What would you advice someone who's having an initial chat with a talent recruiter to talk about the one's background and what the company does ?

[whole wasp]

Is it normal that old companies take you back without a interview process

[near ocean]

The point of the interview is to make sure youre technically decent, if they already know your work and you've passed their interview the first time then whats the point

[vapid jay]

How can I earn 20$/hr in python

[near ocean]

Find a job that pays you that? Do you need specific advice?

[vapid jay]

how much do I have to learn ???

[young smelt]

||go check the sneaky pirate version||

[near ocean]

Enough for a junior role pretty much

[young smelt]

lol

I mean you haven't started learning python, you looking for jobs? meh 🥴

[vapid jay]

ok

[vapid jay]

type of lol

[vapid jay]

How many hrs of learning will that take ???

[near ocean]

My guy just start learning first and worry about these things later

[young smelt]

||fake it until you make it||

[vapid jay]

Print "Hello, World !"

[near ocean]

Thats not even valid python

[young smelt]

lol

[vapid jay]

lmfao

[summer roost]

$20/hour is around what internships pay in the US, and students get those after maybe 2 years of studying computer science.

[vapid jay]

***2 FUCKING YEAS ~~~~~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[young smelt]

don't run for money!

[near ocean]

Sigh, can we move onto more serious questions

[summer roost]

Yeah, students usually can't get an internship before finishing their sophomore year.

[vapid jay]

money is the reason I wanna learn python

[near ocean]

Youre not going to have a fun time

[summer roost]

And most jobs available to high schoolers would pay much closer to minimum wage than to 3x minimum wage.

[young smelt]

Do you want to be a blue collar developer?

or a skill-full dev?

[vapid jay]

just a normal python dev

[young smelt]

ok.

[vapid jay]

if I work for 10hrs a day
200$x30 = 6000$
I will stop right there

[young smelt]

🥴

oh boy, outta my budget

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[vapid jay]

hmm....
I can work for projects and earn more, I am only 13
12,000$ would be ok for my crypto projects

[young smelt]

follow this not money

[vapid jay]

I have a damn expensive udmey course for like 20 langs

[near ocean]

Why do you want to spend incredible hours learning and then 8h a day working with something you dont even like

[vapid jay]

for some funds

[near ocean]

Can I ask how old you are

[vapid jay]

I got a job on upwork, 20$/hr jr dev

[vapid jay]

13 years and I am not a lazy 1st worlder

[near ocean]

Not sure what that means but youre not going to get a job as a 13yo as a software dev

[summer roost]

Think about it this way: wages for software developers wouldn't be so high if the skills required for developing software could be learned very quickly.

[vapid jay]

lmfao, I will use crypto (untraceable monero) as payment

I am also a white hat hacker

[summer roost]

Higher wages come exactly because of specialization.

[near ocean]

Some more sighing

[vapid jay]

ik, well gtg for my boxing tranning... Bye !

[near ocean]

Sorry im not trying to be dismissive, but lets be realistic and selfaware

[vapid jay]

ok sir

[craggy arrow]

oh my god why does this exist

[hearty island]

there's also a manga guide to calculus and statistics

[craggy arrow]

moment

[hearty island]

i'm reading the stats manga guide rn i'm horrified

dear god

well this is awkward, the role i'm interviewing for already has hired someone else

[spiral swift]

Maybe they need more than one person ?

[hearty island]

possibly idk

[frosty terrace]

Thanks for the test tip, I'm trying it out now and it's useful and simple. Would I really leave test files though in my programs? Guessing that makes it easier to try more tests later if needed?

Funny part is that I just learned it during a job interview test, which FINALLY got one

[coarse crag]

You don't get money by knowing only python

[wet hinge]

ik

what can i learn after knowing it

i think im going to learn oop

[coarse crag]

I don't really understand your question, but python can do alot of stuff since it's general purpose. Usually when you learn python, you'll eventually learn oop too.

You can make websites with Django/flask, you can also use python for math-oriented field like machine learning. If you've learned python, and you know other stuff too like web dev, database, etc, maybe you can look up on freelancing jobs in your country that seeks for python developer.

[wet hinge]

i meant i just finished learning the basics what should i do know ?

[frosty terrace]

I hate timed tests 😦

[coarse crag]

Oh! I see! Gimme a minute.

[wet hinge]

(:

[coarse crag]

Wait idk why i sent that tbh

[wet hinge]

i didnt know what to say too tbh

[coarse crag]

I can't delete it either. It showed up and i clicked it

[wet hinge]

lol

[coarse crag]

I'm sorry for the inconvenience.

https://roadmap.sh/ this is a good roadmap to follow

Oh nvm i can delete it

[wet hinge]

that was a weird conv tbh

[hearty island]

YES I FINALLY GOT THE OFFER LETTER

[coarse crag]

Yeah, I don't have nitro so i don't think i was supposed to be able to send that kind of thing. That's why i got confused and just clicked on it.

[hearty island]

let’s fucking goooo 🎊 🪅

[wet hinge]

gg

[coarse crag]

Good luck with the job!!! (And congrats)

[hearty island]

6 months, contingent on change, $20 an hour starting august 15th

[coarse crag]

Ooo

[untold crane]

Hi to everyone, could you give me some advise on where to start to learn python, I started learning C like four months ago and I think I have a decent ground to learn python, I struggled a lot when learning concepts but I finally could understand topics like pointers, malloc and its friends, structure and typedef, function pointers, singly linked lists and bit manipulation, so I would be so thankful if you could could recommend me where to start with python (Knowing all what I know so far). Thanks a lot in advance and sorry for any error in my writing, English is not my first language.

[coarse crag]

!resources (most people recommend Automate The Boring Stuff for beginners)

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[elfin pewter]

I enjoyed every moment of this chat 😂

[potent sierra]

Sorry this server is pretty confusing, where can I go for advice regarding looking for beginner tips?

[gritty rivet]

Try the "Resources page" linked just above, or #python-discussion

[potent sierra]

Thank you

[coarse crag]

Told that person it's better to study well at school but it doesn't seem to get through that person. Sigh.

[wispy terrace]

Good morning,
I have a quick question, does anyone have some feedback on Mimo Dev? Or any other coding boot camps that you recommend?

[coarse crag]

!rule 9 this server doesn't allow recruiting.

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[vapid jay]

Hello!

[gaunt juniper]

Hi

[vapid jay]

Do you think that Python is important in Cybersecurity? They told me that Python is necessary for scripting and networking

[coarse crag]

from my understanding, python is not the only language that can do the things you mentioned but yeah it's pretty much useful for that.

[vapid jay]

Is it also a good starting language? I already attended an academy and completed a full basics course, now I am trying to pass fundamentals and then go advanced

[coarse crag]

yes, it's a good starting language. because it's easy to learn and easy to read.

[vapid jay]

Some people say that something like C++ is better for starters. What do you think?

[true harness]

it does have merits, but imo python is better

[coarse crag]

thats... i don't know what to say. but c++ imo is difficult to learn especially for beginners

[true harness]

there's tons of talk about this in #pedagogy , btw

[gritty rivet]

I did Nucamp Backend and it worked out well for me. I don't know that it's the strongest program out there, but it's very affordable compared to any other I've seen

[pallid ferry]

Hi

[twin pendant]

How much creative input do programmers get about the way software should be structured? I know that programmers typically work with the ux and ui team for input about user requested features and what the interface should look like.

I think I personally, as I’m learning programming now, struggle with the idea that programmers don’t appear to get any say in the way of what should be included in the software.

I wouldn’t want to be a ux and ui person because I would feel like not building it myself would be unfulfilling. The thing is, I want creative input and to build. Is this a familiar problem?

[delicate bane]

i believe it depends on the company/size of the team. the smaller the teams, the more the input/full-stack ability the dev has/requires

[vital wolf]

Hey anyone know what is quick assessment round?

[twin pendant]

As a programmer yourself, do you feel like you mostly just want to listen to the outside teams and build or do have ideas about how the program should be run

[delicate bane]

i always have ideas but thats my personality. im also on the user testing calls for one project.

[twin pendant]

i feel like it's mine too. i don't think i'd' be fulfilled by doing ux or ui because i wouldn't actually be making the things myself though. ux and ui focuses a lot on button placement, and aesthetics, and user engagement. all nice things, but i like the idea of making the thing and also having ideas about what should go into it.

i wonder if that means i'm not meant to be a programmer?

[smoky quest]

it depends on the company, team, product, etc.
So it could go from no input to opportunities for large impact.

[twin pendant]

but do ux and ui designers get a lot of input? From what i understand, whatever they design is a direct result of what clients say

[smoky quest]

They do get as much inputs as others, although their impact may differ based on the nature of their work.
If the client dictate, then you are a contractor. But that's not what product focused companies do.

Take facebook for instance. They don't just blindly do what someone tell them. They listen to the pain and needs of their users (or try to find that out) and then think about the way to go about addressing that.

[twin pendant]

i am an intern at snapchat so for me i think the question comes down to, "what if i have an interesting idea i know i would want to see as an end user" do i get input for that and get to potentially create it?

[smoky quest]

Same thing there

[twin pendant]

on the ux and ui side or the programming side?

[smoky quest]

#career-advice message

[twin pendant]

ah i see! so let me give an example. Say users are complaining about a lack of accessibility on an app through reviews. Could programmers say "well something that may help is voice controls" or would UX and UI make that call, and then programmers are only used for implementation

[smoky quest]

#career-advice message

[twin pendant]

i'm more so asking from your personal experience within your company

[smoky quest]

So it could go from "shut up, you aren't the right person" to actually listening to you

[serene kindle]

isn't that what the 10 meetings a day are for though

[smoky quest]

I am against top down structures, so my experience would be quite biased

[serene kindle]

you wanted to give feedback and voice your opinion so enjoy the 10 meetings a day

[twin pendant]

i'm fine with your biased take. I think i'm trying to get a feel for what really working in the industry is like and the personal feelings of software engineers.

[smoky quest]

it doesn't have to be. It could be part of a coffee discussion or something brought up during a sprint ceremony

[smoky quest]

I like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTt_4IP6wac

But in general, I am all for self organizing teams and collaborations

[twin pendant]

10 meetings a day to improving an app doesn't sound awful

[smoky quest]

that's not what would happen though

[twin pendant]

yeah i'm sure it's not quite literally 10 meetings a day

[serene kindle]

coding the wrong thing seems faster than discussing what the right thing should be

[smoky quest]

that's literally wrong

[twin pendant]

i also like the idea of sociocracy. I think i have a hard time experiencing this/meeting people who have the right answers about this at snapchat though. it is such a large company, and decisions aren't heard by everyone. it is very tough to communicate

[serene kindle]

just become a product manager then

[twin pendant]

i like actual coding though, and creating solutions. I wouldn't feel fulfilled in a role where i didn't have a part in making the product.

[smoky quest]

That's the curse of large companies.
You can't move a cargo ship as fast as a speedboat.

But that's also why communication is critical and people ought to trust and collaborate with each others. So many connections do happen by chance.

[serene kindle]

it's hard to do both since when the engineer gets some spec, they would finish the implementation by the time you were ready for the next meeting?

maybe depends on the team size/speed

nevermind

[twin pendant]

the thing is, if my entire job was figuring out if a circle was round enough for an app, or a search bar is centered correctly, i would have an awful time. the problem solving that comes with programming is integral to my happiness. i just also like coming up with ideas for what an app can be like.

[serene kindle]

i'm sure you'll have many ideas when you see the spaghetti codebase

[smoky quest]

My advice to you is to be curious, look at the metrics, test the product and form an opinion.
Discuss these opinions (and ask questions) with the PM, the EM and other members of the team too as a way to get different perspectives and opinions. Some ideas may come out of this.

Also your team should have some planning sessions at different scope (ex: yearly [a bit too far out in my opinion], quaterly and then sprint level), which helps understand what your team (and by extension yourself) should focus on

[serene kindle]

they always ask for feedback on that anyway, just that most engineers too tired/don't care to give feedback, if you cared you could comment on it

[smoky quest]

asking for feedback when the engineer hasn't done the research upfront is difficult. They wouldn't know enough to have an opinion

[serene kindle]

it's kind of like doing 10x the work than you need to though

[smoky quest]

it's also a great way to mature as an IC and to climb the ladder faster too.
No pain no gain

[graceful mason]

ever tried embedded development? tends to be a very collaborative and problem-solvey field

[twin pendant]

that's good advice. i don't know i'd have opinions on every app, but more so i'd have ideas about things that are widespread.

[shy quiver]

I am doing a 1000$ course on undacity can someone code w me?

[serene kindle]

if you want to do 100x the work asked of you i'm sure everyone will be happy

[twin pendant]

what is embedded development? that sounds interesting. how does it work?

[smoky quest]

Everyone has opinions.
I have no doubt you would develop some once you get a closer look

[twin pendant]

that's true. i just don't think i'd feel accomplished if making a user interface and not actually making the product was my only job. i'd feel like i was falling short in some way

[serene kindle]

maybe become a engineering manager since they write code and do a lot of high level discussion

[graceful mason]

writing software for embedded systems - you need to work with multiple teams (mechanical design, electronics, safety etc etc) and be creative to overcome the limits of the system you're designing/working with and to optimise for cost

[twin pendant]

huh that does sound interesting. that sounds pretty cool!!!

[smoky quest]

Your contributions could go from an idea to more fully formed ones. There are no specific hard way about it.
Sometimes there are even team ups.
Sometimes, that bring up some new items on the roadmap.

Even if you have an idea about something your product could do, you would still have to involve the required folks (ex: ux/ui designer, pm)

[twin pendant]

yeah that would make a lot of sense. that's less structured than i thought

[vapid jay]

is being a tester good job to start in as programmer?

[remote siren]

what are the chances i can start a billion $ tech company

[true harness]

near 0

[remote siren]

maybe for u

u have an anime pfp

[buoyant seal]

from dictionary: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=anime pfp

Anime PFP - Argument used by a person who has no creativity and can't think of a good argument.

[remote siren]

ofc a screenshoted nft pfp person would respond with that

[coarse crag]

tbh your answer is realistic imo, not sure why the conversation went south.

[near ocean]

Anyone asking if they can start a billion dollar company have no chance ever making it
Selfawareness is key

[wraith mural]

hello quick question, is python generally a good career where you can make a lot of money?

[true harness]

python isn't a career. software engineering, data science, are careers

[wraith mural]

out of those, which is the better option?

[near ocean]

Better in terms of what?

[wraith mural]

money?

[buoyant seal]

2668 billionaries in the world, 7.753 billions people in the world. if we assume that chance is proportional, then chance is 0.0000344% 🙂

[remote siren]

ill take the odds

[near ocean]

Chance isnt proportional tho, you think Billy Gates asked on irc if he could start a bln dollar company?

[true harness]

should be a little better: not every one of those people is gonna start a business, so let's say...20x that number?

[wraith mural]

I guess... hmmm... ok...

[remote siren]

no but there are other billionaires that had that mindset and did it

[near ocean]

My guy if you wanna daydream thats fine, at least dont get aggressive with members here

[buoyant seal]

Well. we could actually make some sort of formula, with corellation to person available input parameters like: available skills + available money + available networking connections (university should be highly influenced by all three parameters here and influencing them). I have a strong feeling most of billionares would have really strong corellation with those parameters

[remote siren]

how did i get aggressive?

ali remember the name

[near ocean]

Ok maybe not aggressive but condescending

[coarse crag]

you insulted @ public static void (at least that's how i saw it)

[remote siren]

ok remember the name Ali

[near ocean]

Nobody cares, guy, lets move on

[remote siren]

u guys have dead dreams and its sad

[graceful mason]

<@&831776746206265384>

[remote siren]

dream big and it will all come together

[true harness]

the only problem is quantifying everything. how do you measure "skills"

[remote siren]

did i really hurt peoples feelings with that sentence?

[torpid galleon]

just noting all this down because this is so funny

[near ocean]

This is like the 10th person in here with some inflated sense of self and no selfawareness, to ask a question

[buoyant seal]

yeah, that's why we would have to resort to measuring only money, networking connections. Skills we will have to judge by educational background only (i know there are enough dropouts, but hard to measure)

[true harness]

tbh just having post-bach vs bach degree vs no degree is probably already good enough

[remote siren]

confidence isnt a bad thing bud

[buoyant seal]

We could also account present any work experience prior to the moment of starting company. It could be influencing as well in some way

[near ocean]

idk what to tell you, do you have a job already? Education? Other experience?

[remote siren]

im 15 and finished Harvards CS50 course on computer science, ill learn Javascript and Python next

[buoyant seal]

Actually you know... We could be also trying to cheat our way. And uploading as much detailed information as possible about group of billionaries and not billionaries, and just training neural network to recognize billionaries. And then checking which parameters it deemed valued to identify them!

We could also decrease a bit level of richness, in order to increase pool of data to train network

[near ocean]

You're 15? And you're asking about making a bln dollar company? Can we just start banning people already

[remote siren]

lol ur just sad ur old and have a sad life and nothing can save u

[coarse crag]

<@&831776746206265384>

[near ocean]

Sigh, whatever, can we move on now

[dapper depot]

!mute 1003539835849547796

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @remote siren until <t:1660167424:f> (59 minutes and 59 seconds).

[near ocean]

Sorry, that wasnt for you, so whats your priorities when it comes to deciding between disciplines

[wraith mural]

i dont really know

[near ocean]

Have you tried out some basic data science? Web dev, tried automating some process?

[wraith mural]

no not really... im kinda new to python

[neat grove]

While calling people names was uncalled for, there's also no reason to be antagonistic. That might have been the 10th person for you, but for each one of those people they just come in and ask a question. If you don't feel like engaging with those sorts of questions then don't.

[vapid jay]

Im not sure what Im doing with my life rn.

[graceful mason]

Antagonism really wasn't the issue there... literally 3/4 of his messages were insults from the start
just some person wanting attention

[coarse crag]

yeah i agree with you, i think the kid is just too immature.

[smoky quest]

That's something you should report to moderators

[coarse crag]

oh? ok

[jagged glade]

yeah, send that screenshot to @severe widget

[coarse crag]

got it, thanks guys.

[whole wasp]

Interview through WhatsApp video is probably a scam?

[buoyant seal]

Ergh? Why would it be? I would not really care through which video program the interview is made
usually the difference could be only...in... if they use WhatsApp, it could be a sign of less automated pipeline of HR processes and communications, they could be having relatively small or non existing amount of established internal tools in this regard. They could be potentially not using digitalized calendars to regulate their work as well.
So it could be just a sign of a small comany size

[peak halo]

all my interviews were over Teams and Zoom. But if it is a scam, that will probably become apparent during the interview pretty quickly, so you might as well go for it.

[buoyant seal]

Exactly. Prepare your own questions, which a normal company should answer

[whole wasp]

It’s like a recruiter basically wasting time or gonna sell some training program

[buoyant seal]

Technically just a free round of questions should be enough. Ask any detail they give away to hint about your/their work

[peak halo]

I don't know how full your schedule is, but if they try to sell you on a training program, you can just tell them that you want to withdraw and end the call.

[whole wasp]

It’s some Indian consulting company as well

[peak halo]

are you eligible to work for that company?

[whole wasp]

Yes

[peak halo]

I think in Asia, whatsapp is often used to make international calls. why they don't want to use Zoom, I don't know. but I would just do the interview and let the interview experience speak for itself.

[whole wasp]

If I’m barely passing legit interviews why would I pass this one

[buoyant seal]

i am usually getting interviews through Zoom or through google meetings. Often enough through third party recruitment platforms, they have their own implementations. Sometimes had through Team as well.

Recruiters from my country often liked to get in touch through Telegram (more modern and better analog than Whatsapp), it allowed more rapid comfortable communication. Nobody offered whatsapp due to it being more outdated and less reliable though.

[summer roost]

I wouldn't read into the platform they're using for the video calls at all. If they're doing them over whatsapp, it may just mean that they think most candidates will already have whatsapp, and so it'll save them installing something special

stay in school

having the degree will open a lot of doors for you in the future. There are jobs that will be unavailable to you without the degree. The classmates from the degree form your first professional network. If the job doesn't work out, you may find you have a hard time going back to school.

see #pedagogy message

[delicate bane]

this link to that message really needs to be pinned

but thats my opinion

[ivory sluice]

(i wouldn't mind a cross-post for the )

really now, retire?

[lapis wind]

🤨

[summer roost]

are you in a country with an incredibly low COL?

[lapis wind]

I mean I earn a lot for a 19 ye old, but I don't earn that much idk if it's different in Dubai or something but that still seems like a unbelievable amount

[summer roost]

well, your back-of-the-napkin retirement math should be that you have enough savings to retire when you need to spend less than 5% of your savings in a year - that relies on you being able to find investments with a 5% average annual return, which index funds can achieve.

[lapis wind]

What are you even doing for this company? Oilrig welding?

[summer roost]

hasn't Dubai been in the news for companies stealing migrant workers' passports and then using them as slave labor?

[lapis wind]

I'm curious but what do you number would you consider a retirement amount is?

USD?

[true harness]

so you would be earning over 1.5 million a year as a junior dev?

[lapis wind]

Is the company insane? (No offense) but that's definitely not a sound business strategy

[summer roost]

That seems way, way too good to be true. I'd be extremely skeptical of that offer.

[true harness]

ah

[lapis wind]

Is it a startup?

[summer roost]

oh - equity should count as $0 in your mental math about how much compensation you're receiving

[lapis wind]

I'm always skeptical of assuming that I will get money out of a startup from its equity/stoke.

[summer roost]

that's irrelevant.

assets don't matter at all - equity isn't worth anything unless the company is either sold or goes public.

[lapis wind]

Startups fail for often than not and realistically the only time you'll make money from that is if they sell out

[grim summit]

I completely agree. But this startup is something crazy never seen before shit

[true harness]

doesn't every startup say that

[lapis wind]

If I had a penny for every time I heard that

[summer roost]

95% of startups fail. The ones that don't usually get bought by a bigger company for an amount that doesn't translate into any significant windfall for anyone but the owners.

[grim summit]

Ima see how it goes but I think I will take a break from uni for atleast 2 years

[lapis wind]

My advise is don't, or at least not for a startup

[grim summit]

the company has been around for a year+ now

[lapis wind]

That means nothing

[summer roost]

well, if you came here looking for someone to tell you that was a good idea, I hope the fact that everyone here thinks it's a bad idea will make you slow down and reconsider.

[lapis wind]

If they've been around for a year that probably means they're series A funding unless I'm mistaken, which means they are highly volatile especially if it's miss managed

[grim summit]

I'm not sure currently

[lapis wind]

Also, what kind of startup is this? If you say crypto the alarm bell is gonna go off loud

[grim summit]

its not crypto ofcourse

i cant really talk about it to be honest

[summer roost]

Hiring someone who hasn't even graduated from college to build the entire backend and offering them enough money that they believe they'll be able to retire in 3 years is a pretty strong signal that the venture capital is being mismanaged.

[lapis wind]

They're a startup they need all the publicity and hype they can to get the next series of funding xD

[grim summit]

not looking for someone like that. Just looking for legit advice

[coarse crag]

not even considering they could be scamming.

[near ocean]

What kind of advice?

[summer roost]

general life advice: an offer that seems too good to be true probably is.

[near ocean]

Stay in uni, the advice was clear from the start

[lapis wind]

I mean they're not wrong, no offense but you can be as good as a programmers as you can be at your age, but business skills and managing business environments, clients, designs takes the time

The point wathat you yourself are not

[near ocean]

What you said about the job is not enough for anyone to decide its legit or worth the effort and risk of dropping out of uni

[summer roost]

I'd be extremely suspicious of a company offering far above average compensation to someone from another country, especially someone without significant credentials.

Are they not able to find anyone in their country that can do the job? If not, why not? If so, why would they offer it to you?

[lapis wind]

My general points backing up godly is:

• if it's too good to be true, it probably is, even if they do offer you a job check the contract and make sure they don't just fuck you over.
• a startup that generally speaking doesn't want information around it / it's existence known is slightly concerning

[near ocean]

"we"?

What does that mean? We who

[summer roost]

if these owners are family friends or something like that, it might change the calculus.

[coarse crag]

strangers?

[summer roost]

it's gonna turn out to be "anonymous" or some shit, isn't it

[near ocean]

This is now even more suspicious

[lapis wind]

Probably worth waiting until that point to consider joining them then

[near ocean]

Am I having deja-vu lmao

[coarse crag]

at first i thought it was really about dropping out of college. now the concern is safety.

[lapis wind]

If they're not public already then I'd be very conserved about where they're getting the money

[grim summit]

it's outta there pockets

[coarse crag]

everything you told us sounds sus. we really hope you will reconsider the decision for your own safety. people target young teenagers because teenagers are easy to manipulate.

i see, good luck!

[near ocean]

Do you have a cv you can share here?

Do you have any other experience apart from what youre doing in school?

[grim summit]

anyways thank you guys. I needed that reality check

and also @hearty island im sometimes active on this server

[buoyant seal]

i second that, it should be pinned

this is super often question asked here. It should be pinned to this channel / and or to help information

[buoyant seal]

i formerly worked in a startup. a year is nothing indeed. A year a startup can spend just on estimating their business strategy without having anything done yet.
Questions should be asked if they have already profit, and how it increased from previous quarter of year. How many users/clients they have at this moment and how their amount increased from before. If the answers are zero, then with around 95% chance a startup can die even without reaching Minimal Viable Product. Even if they answered non zero answers, they are always different factors that could lead to their death within current year. But it is already much more promising.

But. In any case, they are still a perfect opportunity for software developers to increase their skills. Just don't agree to get paid in company shares or something resembling it, only in cash per month / hour. Your payment strategy contract should be as transparent as possible, and you would be good then.
Oh yeah, my startup offered to me also to have good salary only when they would hit the market. That's kind of falls into this 95% of failure too. Don't agree to any future salaries. Salary should be only up to date with your current skills. If you get underpaid more than in half from your current marketing value and there no really perspective to have it fixed except with really distant and unreliable salary promises, better to start getting interviewed and looking for new job.
A right estimation of your current marketing value can be achieved only with getting at least several offers from other companies, where you passed all stages of interviews though. (Even this estimation has a level unaccuracy because it is fully verified only once you pass a trial period of 3 months (usually this amount if standard))

Well, and obviously charisma and luck can get you salary way more than what for you have skills. Which makes some disbalance into this estimation as well. In those cases you are highly likely to fail trial period though.

[buoyant seal]

This estimation can be further matched with a map of skills a person should have for which rank, while analyzing job requirements in market, matching with roadmap of skills, reading books to extend understanding how much you don't know, and asking others what a person is supposed to know at this level, and there also some cool things like here https://dropbox.github.io/dbx-career-framework/ic2_software_engineer.html . all It would help to have better accuracy in estimating more correctly your current market value.

[terse finch]

Need something similar for internships lol

that's nice website. 10 sec cooldown huh

Is this good channel to ask about internships and leetcode? I am junior CS major and I have taken several C++/python course at cc and online. I'm re-learning python basics then OOP so I can start my leetcode journey, also I plan to use ML libraries for one of my personal projects (sign language tracker if you want to know). I also have experience in web development (HTML, CSS, some JS) but I might start Odin Project but honestly I'd like to focus on leetcode. Not sure if I'm ready to apply for intern. Anything else I should do?

I have crafted my resume and applied for some internships that I think match my skills. For now I'm starting leetcode and maybe practice mock interviews and try my luck for Summer 2023

[true harness]

have you looked at the requirements for internships? if you fit most of them, you can apply

[summer roost]

have you taken a data structures and algorithms class? By junior year of CS I'd expect so, but if not, I wouldn't spend much time on leetcode until you have the DS&A course under your belt

[terse finch]

not yet. I plan to watch youtube tutorial or somewhere online on data structures and algorithms class since I'm not taking them until Spring 2023

what's the difference between them and FCC's JS data structures and algos?

[buoyant seal]

i hear trully good words about this book. I checked its content and kind of matching what i had in uni

[terse finch]

ah yeah I heard about that

[true harness]

your university's course will probably be better in pretty much every way. you'll have profs, classmates, TAs to ask for help. also it will be more in depth, more rigorous (probably)

[terse finch]

Also I have taken discrete structures so I'm pretty good with logical stuff

[true harness]

yeah, this book is pretty good. gives good ELI12 explanations for a lot of things

[terse finch]

I see. I'll just do personal projects with python and front-end tools, I feel like I'm ready for leetcode easys.

[flat tiger]

i am a teenager and just want to know, can you make a living off of python

[smoky quest]

hi!
Yes, many people do. It's a very popular language in software engineering fields

[flat tiger]

ah good to know thx :)

[whole wasp]

Did I mess up giving a recruiter my full ss number after I had got my old job through email or is that normal

[terse finch]

are you in US?

[vapid jay]

Help HELP! Im having a panic attack at the moment. A realization of ignorance just hit me and I dont know what to do. I learned python and all the main things. But now I don’t actually know what to do with PYTHON! Im so sad right now I dont know what to do with my skills. Data Science is so boring and the only thing in Machine Learning to do is image recognition! Someone please tell me if I made a mistake in learning Python without knowing what I actually wanted to do. PLEASE help me 🚨!

[smoky quest]

Ignoring python, what do you want to do?

[vapid jay]

I dont know man

[smoky quest]

then it's your first order of business

[vapid jay]

I thought learning Python would help me figure that out. I have no idea what I am doing with my life rn

[vapid jay]

How do I know what to do

[smoky quest]

Try different things and see what you like and dislike.

Either way, knowing python can serve you for many random tasks

[vapid jay]

Im uninterested and the only thing that I enjoy is playing video games but that cant get me anywheree

Im still in highschool and I am a freaking idiot. I am such a failure I dont know what I am gonna do I wanna avoid being homeless

[smoky quest]

What have you tried?

[vapid jay]

Like wym? Games and stuff? Or languages

[smoky quest]

like, what you tried to see if you like it or not?

[vapid jay]

Well I read, I game, I workout, and I code. That sums up my life

[smoky quest]

I mean in terms of things for a job 🙂

[vapid jay]

I thought learning Python would just help me know what to do or create but I got no idea

[vapid jay]

I havent done anything really since I dont know what to explore..

[smoky quest]

Like trying to make a mobile app, trying to do some machine learning, making robots, making websites, making a 3d movie with blender, etc.

[smoky quest]

That's something google can easy answer with many long lists of jobs in computer science / software

[vapid jay]

Oh well I tried making a website in html css and js but that was boring since I didnt even know what the website was gonna be on

I have not tried mobile app development and making robots wtf

I DONT know man I just searched google

[smoky quest]

you still have plenty of time to figure that out

[vapid jay]

I dont

I just wanna make something and be successful but I am a complete idiot I have no idea. AP classes and H classes havent helped me at all?

[smoky quest]

why not?

[vapid jay]

I dont wanna go to college its a waste of money

[smoky quest]

if you want to get into CS and be successful, then a CS degree will be most likely your path

[smoky quest]

lol no. That's the opposite

[vapid jay]

if I go to college and waste my money and get into debt then I wont have time to create and build anything I wanna do

[smoky quest]

Why would that happen?

[vapid jay]

Because its just not worht it. I wanna create something I know thay but the issue is I dont know what I want to create

[smoky quest]

how do you know that?

[true harness]

did you get hired already? why your recruiter though?

[vapid jay]

There is nothing that I could create rn that would be viable because its already been done. I need something to create that no one has done before

[true harness]

right, there's only 1 website because someone already made a website. it doesn't have to be unique

[smoky quest]

College would give you the education, skills and tools to build anything you want.
Furthermore, college is what will enable you to command a high salary from your very first job.

[vapid jay]

But but how can I make money with something NOT unique? Like I dont know man

[vapid jay]

College is going to give my parents amazing stress levels and force them to spend their life savings and be miserable

[smoky quest]

These are the type of things you can learn along the way

[terse finch]

go to community college

[vapid jay]

Nobody hires people who go to community college

[terse finch]

then transfer to university

[smoky quest]

there is a say for that: penny-wise, pounds foolish.
You could save a bit now by skipping college and not be successful and make little, or you could invest and make tons more for yoru entire career

[vapid jay]

And besides Im not looking to get hired. Im looking to make something

But Idk what to make lol

[smoky quest]

That's just anti-intellectualism.
You can't expect to do something innovative that no one else has done without having any education

[true harness]

or money

[vapid jay]

bruhh life is stupid

[tranquil walrus]

How old are you guys?

[vapid jay]

Kill me IDK what I am doing with my life RN

[whole wasp]

I did

[terse finch]

You are still in HS.

[whole wasp]

It was an externalrecruiter I sent it over email

[vapid jay]

dude IM screwd

[summer roost]

that's definitely not true.

[terse finch]

why?

[smoky quest]

that sort of alarmist attitude is not gonna help either

[tranquil walrus]

Hello

[terse finch]

Hard to make money in HS. if that's your goal

[tranquil walrus]

What is HS?

[vapid jay]

ELON musk and bill gates did it?

[true harness]

as a programmer, sure, but there are plenty of non-programmer jobs available for high schoolers

[terse finch]

of course. I mean tons of money

[tranquil walrus]

@vapid jay you are not elon musk ,you are superbad

[summer roost]

and Elon Musk was born into a rich family.

[smoky quest]

they seem to mean a career though, not a part time job

[vapid jay]

IK IM TRASH. I am so bad @tranquil walrus

[terse finch]

can't do that in HS lol

[tranquil walrus]

@terse finch what is HS?

[vapid jay]

high school duh

[terse finch]

still exactly what do you want to do?

[tranquil walrus]

@vapid jay finish HS first

[vapid jay]

Im not sure thats what I am trying to find

[terse finch]

You can do a lot after HS

[vapid jay]

Also I am 14 to give u context SO I may sound dumb or stupid

[true harness]

external to the company? that sounds strange

[tranquil walrus]

@vapid jay wtf,go and sleep kiddo

[vapid jay]

BUt still age is no excuse. WTF am I gonna do.

[summer roost]

graduate from high school, go to college, get a degree, and then get a job?

[vapid jay]

THATS SUCH a boring poor life

[terse finch]

Keep coding and major in CS lol

[vapid jay]

Coding jobs cant even land more than 200k

[true harness]

yes they can

[terse finch]

^

[vapid jay]

No they cant google says so? What jobs land more than 200k in CS

[terse finch]

what exactly did you google

[true harness]

...google?

[vapid jay]

CS jobs

[tranquil walrus]

@vapid jay you got a lot of misinformation and misunderstand

[terse finch]

even interns at FAANG get paid a lot. not 200k tho

[tranquil walrus]

Cause you are a kid

[vapid jay]

https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/highest-paying-computer-science-jobs

That article proves everything nothing is even above 150k.

[terse finch]

that's average salary

[coarse crag]

https://www.levels.fyi/companies/amazon/salaries

(real salaries, submitted by real people)

[terse finch]

Yeah I thought of that website lol

[vapid jay]

What are levels?

[summer roost]

Google literally pays software developers more than 200k.

[whole wasp]

I messed up and gave it

[terse finch]

https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Intel,Apple,Accenture&track=Software Engineer

[true harness]

also, in most (probably close to all, tbh) areas anywhere above 150 is a pretty comfortable life, what's with this arbitrary 200k number

[terse finch]

hes not used to budgeting yet

[vapid jay]

i know what that is dont underestimate me because of my age I know a lot ask me any quesiton

[terse finch]

I mean the numbers, cost of living

[coarse crag]

do you know how much you spend every month for everything? housing, water, electricity, food, clothes, etc?

[vapid jay]

My parents do

[coarse crag]

you just proved the fact that you don't know how to budget your expenses.

[summer roost]

what an elaborate way to say "no"

[vapid jay]

Did you know when you were 14?

[terse finch]

I was like this when I was 14 lol

[coarse crag]

same lol

[summer roost]

no, most 14 year olds don't. They don't need to.

[terse finch]

You will realize later

[vapid jay]

No I am different. I am dumb and stupid Idk what I am doing with my life rn. I am so dumb that I gotta ask smart people on discord what to do with my life

[summer roost]

finish high school, go to college, get a degree, get a job.

[vapid jay]

thats so standard and boring tho right?

[coarse crag]

they have told you what you need to do. but you did not listen.

[rich trellis]

are interships worth it for the work experience?

[terse finch]

I want interns for money

[summer roost]

it's "standard" because it's the easiest path to a comfortable life

[summer roost]

yes, very.

[vapid jay]

Bruh like whay

[coarse crag]

why as in what? why do you need to live a standard life by going to school, uni, working regular job? that's just life.

[terse finch]

salary difference

[vapid jay]

Ok I guess but just to be clear did u act like me when u were my age or am I just crazy

[coarse crag]

well, i wasn't as crazy as you, but i did ask weird things.

[vapid jay]

WAIT SO IM more crazzy?

[summer roost]

it's pretty unreasonable to ask people who you've said ~20 sentences to for a judgement on your mental health.

[rich trellis]

any tips on searching for an internship? I’m going to uni next year and I have free time rn so I feel I could do something in the meantime

[terse finch]

first year of school?

[summer roost]

internships for someone who hasn't finished at least 1 year of university are pretty rare, in my experience

[rich trellis]

should I look into it once I’m already in uni then?

[summer roost]

you're much more likely to be successful then. You can look now, but I wouldn't get my hopes up.

internships are most common between someone's 2nd and 3rd or 3rd and 4th years of uni.

[rich trellis]

oh alright

[smoky quest]

I would recommend to look into internship then.
In the mean time, having projects can go a long way to deepen your understanding as well as having something to show off

[vapid jay]

What types of projects?

[rich trellis]

thanks a lot! still learning stuff so I should probably practice before getting into the job market

[smoky quest]

literally anything

[vapid jay]

oh so maybe would making a website about me be a good project

[smoky quest]

yes. It's a very common project

[summer roost]

you'll learn something from writing pretty much any type of software. The more software you write, the more you learn - both about writing software, and about what types of software you enjoy writing.

[vapid jay]

oh common isnt good then lol maybe ill code a blockchain

[summer roost]

that seems pretty common these days, too, heh

[smoky quest]

the point is for you to learn, not to sell it

[vapid jay]

Actually? Lol

[rich trellis]

I guess just code what you wanna code since then youll have more motivation to do it

[vapid jay]

Yea but what if you dont know what you want to code

[smoky quest]

you will figure that out as you try things out

[vapid jay]

Im literally lost in my mind rn I am sorry for bothering you all with these annoying comments from me

I just wanna impress my parents and land a job that makes more than 200k

[smoky quest]

that's where college and education play a large part

[coarse crag]

i'm pretty sure getting good grades will impress your parents too

[smoky quest]

but 200k out of the gate is unlikely

[vapid jay]

I guess

[rich trellis]

200k salaries are like senior level salaries

[vapid jay]

Oh

[summer roost]

that's a reasonable salary for someone with a degree and 5 to 10 years of professional development experience

[vapid jay]

Do you think going down blockchain development would be more like successful for me considering how a lot of the industries are starting to explore the capabilities of crypticurrency

[summer roost]

no

a lot of the industries are starting to explore the capabilities of crypticurrency
And no, they aren't. Some are exploring blockchain, but very, very few are exploring cryptocurrencies.

[rich trellis]

do companies in europe pay as much as in america? ik pay in america can get p high but idk around here

[terse finch]

SWE in California make a lot

[summer roost]

do companies in europe pay as much as in america? ik pay in america can get p high but idk around here
no, they don't - but that's probably a good thing.

it's a feature, not a bug, that income inequality is low in Europe.

[vapid jay]

hey fellas what are the skills a fullstack web Developer need beside python skills

[rich trellis]

ig cost of living isnt as high as in america either so it evens out

[summer roost]

and there's a better social safety net, and better job security, and an easier path to retirement.

[summer roost]

Check out https://roadmap.sh/

[terse finch]

wow thanks for that

[summer roost]

yes, but the cost of living in California is quite high, also.

[coarse crag]

check out the website godlygeek mentioned, and this one you might like it too
https://www.fullstackpython.com/

[terse finch]

Some jobs here pay you too much lol

Python path map is very nice

[vapid jay]

uh

[rich trellis]

if I wanna do AI, would the backend developer roadmap work?

[vapid jay]

okay Now I see why people have to go to school for this stuff

[terse finch]

Python is good for AI. I plan to use opencv and mediapipe for my personal project. AI libraries that work with python fyi

[coarse crag]

maybe this will help you? https://i.am.ai/roadmap/#fundamentals

[peak halo]

like, back end web development? not at all. they have entirely different tech stacks, and you'd have to learn AI theory that is programming language-agnostic.

[rich trellis]

oh thank you this helps

[summer roost]

note that it's much harder to get a job working in AI without a degree than it is to get jobs working in most other types of software without a degree.

if you want to do AI, you should really go to university.

[rich trellis]

yeah thats the plan, I wanna get a degree in Data Science

[coarse crag]

i also found this interesting machine learning roadmap. i think it's pretty comprehensive. you can check out the roadmap in the video desc. https://youtu.be/pHiMN_gy9mk

[rich trellis]

thanks! ill check it out

[terse finch]

I only want to use AI libraries for my personal project. Not sure if it help me as CS major or inten lol

scam

[coarse crag]

do we need a mod for this?

[terse finch]

I'd like to ping helpers lol

[coarse crag]

this server is not for advertising this kind of things. please delete your message.

[buoyant seal]

Not bad at all. Cool map. Pure practical areas of ecosystem though. The map is missing as usual the elephant in a room about knowing core Software Engineer skills like mine in green squares
https://github.com/darklab8/darklab_backend_roadmap/
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/darklab8/darklab_backend_roadmap/master/swe_backend.drawio.svg

Although it is mentioning testing. at least

[coarse crag]

yeah i agree. i think it would be a good fit when combined with other roadmaps. yours is definitely more comprehensive and has larger coverage.

[buoyant seal]

in Networking/communications section it is missing really cool gRPC protocol, which kind of really important nice to know in the world of microservices at least.
and it has terrible advices in regarding CI tools. Jenkins should not be chosen nowdays at all. Hmm short look at GoCD show it is being promising to try tech

[coarse crag]

oooo i didn't even notice

do you have any recommendation on better but also practical roadmap like this?

[coarse crag]

sorry, i don't know much. why shouldn't jenkins be used nowadays?

[buoyant seal]

quoting from here https://archive.dsicommunity.org/topic_week/perfect_cicd_pipeline/

Nous 2021-10-02 09:44
Jenkins was a first gen CI system. Everything is configured in the UI, which makes it hard to see/approve changes, things are live straight away so any larger changes can break things while you play around with them to see if they will work (as oppose to testing them in a branch first). They where designed to run agents directly on servers which bloated after a while with every tool ever single pipeline needed. Different versions of packages meant to needed different agents and managing it all is a huge pain. Often java focused and everything else is a second class citizen. This also goes for other older tools like teamcity, stash etc. Jenkins is also plugin hell, everything is a plugin and you need a whole bunch to make it a useable tool these days. Which increases the learning curve and makes the whole thing a mess.
I would not use a first gen CI system any more. They should just be left to die. They have tried to tack on more modern features but have all done it badly to keep support for the older ways of doing things.
Second gen CI systems are all config first, where the config is in the repo next to the code. As well as Docker (or at least ephemeral VMs for each job) so the agents are kept clean and essentially reset after each job and each job can install the tools it needs for that job. This includes things like travis, circle ci, github actions, gitlab ci, drone ci etc... so many choices there is no reason to use the legacy tools any more.
I think there is also a third gen popping up now - more abstract than just CI and starting to go down general workflow pipelines. Often kube focused and while you can build CI/CD systems out of them they are more general and no longer tied to only being triggered by Git event but rather any event. This includes things like Tekton, Argo Wrokflows etc type tools.

[buoyant seal]

as from my experience, i used Gitlab CI, and i am hooked to it having Docker Images as jobs ground inside pipeline, which are available even for self hosted runners.
It allows trully clean CI/CD environment to make. With quickly having job environment from docker images premade envs. This is not available even in Github Actions (at least not in their self hosted runners)

[summer roost]

er - it's off topic, but large parts of that explanation seem wrong to me.

Jenkins is predominantly configured with config files in the repo (c.f. Jenkinsfile), and it's absolutely possible to test with a different Jenkinsfile in a feature branch than in the main branch

[buoyant seal]

out of the box is it not in friendly yaml. Gitlab CI has the most friendly yaml version of syntax to have

[summer roost]

no, it's in groovy - but groovy is still text

They where designed to run agents directly on servers which bloated after a while with every tool ever single pipeline needed.
And I've never seen anyone use Jenkins that way - that would ruin isolation, which is pretty much the most valuable thing CI can give.

There are lots of reasons to hate Jenkins, don't get me wrong - but that's really not a good explanation of them.

[buoyant seal]

It is still the only available way for self hosted runners of Github Actions! Which is terrible tbh.

[summer roost]

Jenkins is also plugin hell, everything is a plugin and you need a whole bunch to make it a useable tool these days.
^ This is definitely true, and a very good reason to hate Jenkins

anyway, this is off topic so I'll stop.

[coarse crag]

Thanks for the explanations 🙏

[inner wren]

Hey @buoyant seal!

You either uploaded a .txt file or entered a message that was too long. Please use our paste bin instead.

[buoyant seal]

it would be interesting to check this https://pastebin.com/Ep3RMMii self assement list which i stole from one of technical interviews of one pure practical approach company as well. It adds some additional missing stuff

https://www.fullstackpython.com/monitoring.html https://www.fullstackpython.com/logging.html
Although you know... with checking how many different interesting monitoring and logging systems they mention, this is just sick cool

[coarse crag]

Ooo i see

[coarse crag]

Thanks Darkwind!

[buoyant seal]

you are welcome. It is not perfect list too though. In cloud computing section they have
Terraform / Pulumi / Cloud formation as infra provisioning tools. Scratch Cloud formation, it is outdated tech better to be not using as far as I hear in DevOps server from people
Terraform / Pulumi / stuff like AWS CDK it should be

Having learned Terraform, i can say it is nice stable universal solution to go. Pulumi and AWS CDK are interesting that in comparison to terraform which uses HCL its own language, Pulumi and AWS CDK allow to use regular programming languages, which allows less mind blowing tricks to make in order to program what you wish in terms of infra. There is still high beauty in terraform due to it being specifically made declarative language just for this job, it is highly consistent. And has super wide support among all cloud providers.

[buoyant seal]

anyway, scratch most of what i was talking abioe. I fell i love with how much stuff in detail this thing mentions. There is only a problem that some stuff can be not chosen due to some sort of problems. Like... in python web frameworks, in job requirements people ask only for Flask/Django/FastAPI stuff, and people mostly choose only them as a choice to make apps, because it is easier to find people familiar with it, and there are a lot of ecosystem integrations meant for them. It is kind of bad to rely that much on frameworks, and ideally solution is made in as much separation as possible from it, while utilizing framework only as a layer to expose endpoints / and to set input/output at them, but you get the idea. Sometimes people still choose having architecture fully polluted by every possible implementation of django for example. In this case it is better to have people who are as much as possible familiar with it, if they are long time post point of no return.
P.S. and this roadmap is not mentioning FastAPI at all,, despite it being trending popular choice in jobs nowdays, and mentioning a dozen of others

[buoyant seal]

We can also add they have missing spot in mentioning popular alternative choice to kubernetes container orchestration deployment
Using stuff like AWS ECS, which utilizes cloud provider vendor lock in system to have container orchestration

[buoyant seal]

And lets be honest, who would learn and use Mercurial vsc nowdays? xD It is Git nowdays and nothing else in terms of commercial level environment.

[coarse crag]

Honestly, i am just a beginner, so i don't know anything 😭. I'm really thankful for your information tho. It helps alot.

[buoyant seal]

as a side note, i'll try to process stuff it mentions and carefully adding to my roadmap in a worthy to add bits. Of course my roadmap would be highly opinionated as well, and i would have to try explaning why i was making choices to select only stuff i chosen in it to mention. Though some stuff i would not be able to process in any close time due to... trying dozens of monitoring/logging systems is kind of hardly possible for one person which does not have a lot of free time.

[coarse crag]

I see. Please tell me again when you added more things in your roadmap. Again, thanks!

[tawny idol]

can anyone be my mentor and teach me python. I know there are lots of resources online but a teacher is different thing.

[wheat roost]

You mean teach you personally? One to one?

[sullen thorn]

Hi all, recently I have done the course on Data science using python and did some couple of projects for practice

Can anyone suggest me, how can I start my career as a freelancer?

[vapid jay]

What % of originality should I aim for in my projects?

[near ocean]

Ideally 100%

[smoky quest]

Projects are about your demonstrated skills. The originality does not matter

[near ocean]

Maybe I misunderstood the meaning of originality but I assumed it'd be about the code not being literally identical to some other project

[smoky quest]

I assumed it would be about the interviewer caring if it was about paw patrol or their collection of rocks

[gilded valley]

I think it's also much easier for an interviewer to engage with and care about the technical details of something genuinely unique rather than just TODO-app #45763

it's also easier to evaluate someone's skill on the architecture of something unique, if you're making a generic forum or something, then a million other people have made architecture decisions, whereas if you're doing something just slightly more unique (e.g a guitar tab storage and rating app) then there's at least some clear indication that you can have original thoughts about architecture

[buoyant seal]

Ideally you have around 100% originality (minus some code boilerplating usage to create template of a project if necessary), and you can use as much third party dependencies as necessary, they don't count too. As first works highly likely you are going to have nearly 0% of originality. It is still nice enough for first projects. But they should be original after that

I still have some not really original works too, for example started with AWS terraform coding. To hell with originality at this stage, I copy paste a lot for now. It is hard to understand even when just copy pasting xD

[vapid jay]

Yes. The issue is flask documentation and tutorials show something where you dont have much other choice to do smth much different. Its literally what the documentation suggests, such as when implementing authentication or post addition for example.

[vapid jay]

Yes this is my first webapp in python so im mix matching different functionalities from diff sources

[vapid jay]

Oh i totally get you.

[near ocean]

Sure, thats not a problem
Structuring your blog app the same way everyone else has is a problem however, you can see the problem there

[vapid jay]

Yes. Ill try to make as big of a difference i can to make it more unique

[orchid hatch]

anyone here transitioned to learning python from R?

[graceful mason]

Try #python-discussion or #data-science-and-ml

[gritty rivet]

If you have a career related question, go ahead and ask it here

[orchid hatch]

adapting to a new language isn't a career related question?..

[graceful mason]

Learning a language probably has nothing to do with careers unless you're asking about the impact of doing so on your career

[dense depot]

Hey everyone any software engineers here or people that just have experience working in the Industry? I have a question in mind

[buoyant seal]

dont ask to ask, just ask https://www.pythondiscord.com/pages/guides/pydis-guides/asking-good-questions/#q-is-anyone-here-good-at-flask-pygame-pycharm

[dense depot]

Fair

So the question isn't actually python related however this is the only programming server I'm in so

So I got into a govt sponsored CPP learning initiative

And so far it's going fine however three quarters of the way through I realized that the initiative favours algorithmic thinking and informatics over the actual programming and technicalities of it all

So my question is does the actual industry favour algorithmic thinking and such over the actual programming itself

Or in another way would I actually use this algorithmic thinking and knowledge about informatics in the industry?

Or is it useless in an actual job

[buoyant seal]

usually actual programming dominates industry
There are three exceptions:

1. in data science specialization, it is prefered to have more extensive algorithmic thinking / well and more math learned besides in addition
2. it is a quite regular thing as part of CS degree, to teach everything about data structures and algorithms to a student. actual programming, which we could name OOP as its start, starts in parallel somewhere at the same time.
3. interviewers abuse to ask algorthms only often enough. Depends on a company type / country, how much it would be often asked. Usually considered as must have step in FAANG type of companies set of interviews. I was lucky to have only less than 10% of interviews with it though.

[dense depot]

Ah

Well I think it's only like one more session that has new info other than that it's just practice sessions so I'm not sure when we are gonna learn about oop

And eh I was never really interested in data science anyways

However I'm not sure about the third exception because I never know where I'm gonna apply

[buoyant seal]

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/darklab8/darklab_backend_roadmap/master/swe_backend.drawio.svg
I would like also to add, that it is often enough when even CS degree did not really teach everything that is needed for real life programming job.
I extensively self educated for the last 2 years, and still having a long road ahead to learn

I marked in green squared, regular Software Engineering skills to know and which resources can be used to learn it
it is backend web dev roadmap though, but green squares are reusable for any software dev anyway

[dense depot]

And idk if they have a faang interview in place so

[dense depot]

Ah thanks

Well you definitely were of help so thanks

[buoyant seal]

u a welcome. I could also point that nobody really teached me during CS degree about anything Code Architecture related
and out of System Design and Analysis we learned only one chapter... the most important chapter about user usage cases though, but we were never really told how it is related to programming book System analysis and design by dennic showed me how user usage case scenarios are transformed in planning into how you plan writing your code
Or we were never teached about Git usage. And without this tool... life of a dev is... impossible.

Your education/career/future is only of your own hands matter. Nobody is going to teach you fully, except possible you during your lifetime.

[lyric needle]

how would it be to develop a program that using a tuple of four elements assigns to position 0 your first name, position 1 second name, position 2 last name 1, position 3 second last name designate a random acade code name and last name

[buoyant seal]

!rule 8, try reading about tuples on your own https://www.w3schools.com/python/python_tuples.asp

[inner wren]

Rules

8. Do not help with ongoing exams. When helping with homework, help people learn how to do the assignment without doing it for them.