python-discussion

[crisp jay]

the one with the r prefix?

[austere crow]

print(r"Hello\tWorld")

[thorn anvil]

Hello

[dry yacht]

Try

print("|\v|")

[austere crow]

hi bread

[thorn anvil]

How are you today?

[austere crow]

I will

[dry yacht]

And try

print("abcdefghij\r123")

[steel whale]

just wrote an aimbot for osu

[austere crow]

thats cool

was it hard to write?

[dry yacht]

and against their ToS

[craggy trench]

are you planning to make it into a semi sentient existential crisis causing AI

[steel whale]

no yes idk

[opal gull]

Did you integrate llm

[steel whale]

no-ish

[austere crow]

Can he get banned for this?

[steel whale]

yes

[terse mauve]

osu?

[steel whale]

stay innocent kid

[dry yacht]

click circles to a beat game

[grave tree]

is osu even multiplayer?

[opal gull]

Osu ruins lives

[terse mauve]

other way around, I'm old AF

[steel whale]

yes it is

thru leaderborads and rooms which use leaderboards

[austere crow]

stay innocent old guy

[terse mauve]

<3

[austere crow]

XD

[grave tree]

so then why bring up a subject that we don't allow on the server?

[steel whale]

let me flex a bit

[grave tree]

it's like you want to be banned or something

[steel whale]

who would want that?

[austere crow]

maybe he just wrote it for practice

[steel whale]

oh well, im gonna play some brawlhalla

got i hate qwerty

[grave tree]

I am being very serious here that your conduct over the past many, many weeks has put you on thin ice. I can only warn you so many times before you just get removed from the server.

[grave tree]

doesn't really matter as far as our server rules go. We can't judge intent.

[steel whale]

you don't have to take me seriously though, i do know when to stop myself

[grave tree]

Not really considering how often we've had to step in and warn you.

[steel whale]

you wanted to do that though
anyway we could throw this under a rug

[tame raptor]

yoo do i do lists or if statements first

[cerulean ravine]

either is fine

[hybrid nebula]

I should write reverse pyinstaller

packaging an EXE with a Python x86 emulator and windows API interface

[steady rain]

Just use docker

[hybrid nebula]

I should say that whenever anyone mentions pyinstaller

[steady rain]

I already do

But you're welcome to join me

[vale wasp]

For a second I thought it was run Windows in a Docker container.

[viscid hinge]

click, typer, cyclopts or fire fort a CLI tool?

[brisk gazelle]

There's an Australian fork of that. It's called Ocker.

[hybrid nebula]

lmao

[viscid hinge]

i dont get it

[steady rain]

I thought it was podmate

[hybrid nebula]

Australian? why not rekcod

[cerulean ravine]

bold move

[rotund steppe]

im so confused on interpreted language vs compiled. Interpreted language is executed line by line whereas compiled is translated into machine code before running right?

[steady rain]

It's a spectrum. Not either-or.

[autumn forge]

it is hard to categorise languages as being either interpreted or compiled

[rotund steppe]

im confused

[rotund steppe]

whys that

[autumn forge]

most languages you think of as being "interpreted" will have a compilation step

for example, Python compiles to Python bytecode

[steady rain]

You're probably not at a stage where the distinction is very important

[terse mauve]

Python is somewhat in the middle ish of it. For example, while not being compiled to machine code, it's being compiled to a bytecode that the python VM runs

[autumn forge]

(although, this is an implementation detail of CPython, but that isn't really important)

[rotund steppe]

maybe this is it

[steady rain]

How much would you say you know about python at this point?

[rotund steppe]

3/10? im learning cpp right now because thats what my courses uses

maybe 2, if i were to give it a rating

[steady rain]

I'd say it's not worth wracking your brain over right now

[vale wasp]

Is worth me wracking my brain over?

[autumn forge]

probably. You're right to say that interpreted languages are executed by a separate program -- the interpreter -- whereas compiled languages are compiled to machine code and executed directly by the processor. I take issue with the "line by line" thing, but I suppose it is helpful to understand the uhh... philosophical difference

[rotund steppe]

this is the most comprehensible answer ive gotten so far

thanks!

[grave tree]

interpreted vs compiled is more of a spectrum. It depends on the context of the conversation and there also isn't a binary answer.

Some interpreted languages might still have a compilation step in the form of JIT

It also depends on the definitions of "compiled" people are working with

some people have a very narrow definition, others a broader one

[vale wasp]

Python is interpreted with a compile step and that step happens regardless of whether the JIT is enabled or not.

[autumn forge]

it gets complicated, and introductory courses will often provide a simplified view because it isn't worth introducing a load of confusing concepts just for a more technically correct definition

[steady rain]

Does it have any implications for something you're trying to do?

[rotund steppe]

i think you gave a perfect answer, thank you

[grave tree]

The JIT portion potentially compiles though, no? That's the point I'm trying to make

[vale wasp]

Very rarely.

[vale wasp]

Right, but Python's compilation step isn't because of the JIT. The JIT is an optimization on that.

[grave tree]

I did not say Python's compilation step was because of the JIT.

The bytecode compilation is not what I was talking about

[viscid hinge]

SOMEONE please help me pick a cli tool for my CLI note taking app. Click, typer or cyclopts

[grave tree]

I like cyclopts the most out of those options from what I've tried

[vale wasp]

"Some interpreted languages might still have a compilation step in the form of JIT" #python-discussion message
That's what I was responding to.

[steady rain]

I like typer and have never used the others. I have no opinion on the other two

[grave tree]

although I only tried typer for the briefest of minutes

[vale wasp]

Define the tool...

[viscid hinge]

cli tool?

[grave tree]

That does not say that the bytecode compilation step is because of the JIT. JIT is an additonal compilation step for hot code. You'll also notice a lack of Python mention in that sentence. Almost like it was on purpose

[vale wasp]

I don't know Cyclopts. I've found Typer to be easier to implement than Click whereas Click is more fully featured.

[vale wasp]

And I replied to that and said that that is incorrect for Python. That's all.

[vale wasp]

Single command? Multiple commands?

[grave tree]

So, you're still misunderstanding what I'm saying but okay

[steady rain]

The one time I saw code that used click, there were lots of stacked decorators, and I didn't like that

[viscid hinge]

im going to be adding notes to json, with flags, im pretty noob sorry

[vale wasp]

I am not. You are misunderstanding me.

[granite wyvern]

Can you guys please bicker in DMs?

[vale wasp]

Is this a single command with options or multiple commands?

[charred tusk]

Oh is that what DMs are for?

[granite wyvern]

DM me to find out!

[viscid hinge]

apparantly "Cyclopts is what you thought Typer was"

[grave tree]

I'm just trying to clarify what I'm saying, since from my perspective Dan is responding to something I did not say. But I will drop the subject. I do think it's important to clarify misunderstandings for onlookers though.

[autumn forge]

I'd never heard of cyclopts, but I just read the readme and it looks pretty cool

[steady rain]

We don't need to suppose that they're fighting. Both of them are level headed and they're just trying to reach mutual clarity

[grave tree]

Preocts recommended me cyclopts. Very much prefer it over click

[granite wyvern]

I think you're both talking past each other. But it's getting out of hand.

[viscid hinge]

will be a single command like notes add "my apple was not very crunchy today, shitty JAZZ apple" --important --apples

[autumn forge]

I might try it out the next time I need a CLI interface. Usually I just hack something together with getopt

[vale wasp]

I have the feeling that they're all overkill and you should use argparse or a wrapper around it like dykes

[granite wyvern]

Yes, clarification is important. But a long no no no no exchange just confuses onlookers. DM, reach consensus, come back. Maybe.

[charred tusk]

I saw it but the name scared me away

[autumn forge]

ugh, "CLI interface" 🤦

[viscid hinge]

ill look into those TY dan

[grave tree]

what about the word cyclopts scared you away?

[vale wasp]

Click, Typer, Cyclopts, etc. are great for multi-command applications (think git) while argparse is great for single command options (think cat)

[charred tusk]

It was a joke about cyclops

[viscid hinge]

oh i will have many optional funcs like add delete modify etc etc, if thats what you mean

[granite wyvern]

multi cmds are like git, which has git add, git commit, ... a bazillion others. If that' what you had in mind.

[vale wasp]

Then go with Typer over Click because, IMO, it has a smaller learning curve. (I can't speak for Cyclopts as I don't know it.)

[viscid hinge]

yeh yeh there wont be just add, Thanks everyone!

[charred tusk]

It would be very easy to know it

[fleet harness]

Does anyone know the best places to learn python? I’ve been trying codecademy for a few days but was wondering if there were any better ways to learn python.

[swift sparrow]

We have a list of resources here that we recommend. What don't you like about codecademy?

!learn

[edgy kraken]

Go-to beginner resources

Here are the top free resources we recommend for people who are new to programming:

• Automate the Boring Stuff — an online book (also available to purchase as a physical book)
• Harvard’s CS50P course — video lectures (slides and notes provided) with exercises
• Python Programming MOOC 2026 course — text-based lessons with exercises
• Corey Schafer's YouTube playlist

For a full, curated list of educational resources we recommend, please see our resources page!

[fleet harness]

It kind of feels like flashcards that I’m using to study for a test 😅 I was wondering if there were more interactive and hands on ways to learn python

[swift sparrow]

Python already is interactive. You should always be writing code along with whatever learning material you use

write, test, break, adjust

[fleet harness]

so making my own things based off of what I learn?

[swift sparrow]

yes and even just playing around with the code to make sure you understand it properly

[fleet harness]

ohh ok 👍

thanks 🙏

[swift sparrow]

if you look at cs50p from the links above, it's a great course and it does include problem sets that you can work through

[fleet harness]

Alright, thank you

[swift sparrow]

np!

[tame raptor]

why is list max 5

[shrewd plinth]

Codeacademy I have good things to say about, but sometimes the material is out of date or isn’t as in depth as I’d like.

[swift sparrow]

it's not?

[shrewd plinth]

For Python I mean. Took their courses and were decent but I think still Python 2 assumed

[tame raptor]

car_brands = ['chevrolet', 'ford', 'chrysler' , 'dodge' , 'ram']
car_brands.append('buick')
print(car_brands[6])

[swift sparrow]

We start indexing from 0

[tame raptor]

its an error

oops

[swift sparrow]

the last index of a list will always be len - 1

10 things in the list? last index is 9

472 things in a list? last index is 471

[tame raptor]

what you think

car_brands = ['chevrolet', 'ford', 'chrysler' , 'dodge' , 'ram']
car_brands.append('buick')
car_brands.append("cadillac")
print(f"My dad's first car was a {car_brands[6]}.")

holy progress

[swift sparrow]

Great! As a neat trick in python, we can actually use negative numbers to index from the end of the list

so car_brands[-1]

[tame raptor]

the 4th line is not true my dads first car a Dacia

[tame raptor]

whats wrong with 6 tho

you dont like 7?

[swift sparrow]

Nothing in this example

but sometimes -1 is really useful when you might not be sure how big the list will be

"I want the last element no matter the size of the list"

[tame raptor]

ill keep it in mind so last number = -1

and -2 is before last

[swift sparrow]

exactly

[tame raptor]

car_brands = ['chevrolet', 'ford', 'chrysler' , 'dodge' , 'ram']
car_brands.append('buick')
car_brands.append("dacia")
print(f"My dad's first car was a {car_brands[-1].capitalize()}.")

see how cool that is

[swift sparrow]

I do

[tame raptor]

i put capitalize hella niche

[swift sparrow]

quite commonly used*

[tame raptor]

i like coding man

[ocean whale]

What about reference the book? It explains very clearly!

[tame raptor]

this is some fun shit

[swift sparrow]

it's a good feeling when you get it right

[cerulean ravine]

reference what book? Who is that message for?

[tame raptor]

[ocean whale]

for bleath

[tame raptor]

bleach?

[ocean whale]

yeah, you have just discuss the python commands?

[swift sparrow]

What book are you referring to?

[ocean whale]

there are many, for example, "Introduction to python programming",

[swift sparrow]

People come here to ask questions and discuss things though

If we all just stuck to our books and didn't talk to each other, this would be a very quiet place

[unborn lagoon]

It's already quiet enough with the rise of "the thing"

[swift sparrow]

shhh not so loud

[ocean whale]

ok, i got it

[unborn lagoon]

oops

[granite wyvern]

https://clarkesworldmagazine.com/watts_01_10/

[tame raptor]

anime = ['naruto', 'one piece (garbage)', 'dr stone', 'one punch man', 'bleach']
anime.append('jujutsu kaisen')
print(f"{anime[-1].title()} is my favorite anime, but i also like {anime[-2].capitalize()} and {anime[-4].title()} =).")

!run

[ashen jungle]

where do you guys place imports from typing? (not in alphabetical order with the order standard lib packages, i assume)

[ashen jungle]

nice program

[quasi shuttle]

first in each file

i ususally go typing imports

std library imports

3rd library imports

current project imports

[unborn lagoon]

I just do what isort does, which is alphabetical.

[ashen jungle]

interesting. i was considering putting it on the bottom :p

but top or bottom both seem good

[ashen jungle]

ah

[shrewd plinth]

I cause chaos by importing from typing before I use each type ||/s||

[ashen jungle]

does isort still separate std lib, 3rd party, and project imports?

[unborn lagoon]

Yes, that's how PEP 8 does it.

[ashen jungle]

😡

[ashen jungle]

gotcha

that sounds reasonable too then

[tame raptor]

How do I like print two listed items at once

[swift sparrow]

What do you expect the output to look like for that?

[quasi shuttle]

does isort have any special case for typing imports?

[tame raptor]

Nah forget the program just how can I ?

[swift sparrow]

I'm asking because I don't understand what you're asking. We would need to see an example of the output you're trying to achieve

[granite wyvern]

In with the other imports, myself.

[unborn lagoon]

Not by default, though you can define custom sections if you want.

[tame raptor]

Okay look at my anime program what if I wanted to print anime [3 and 4]

[ashen jungle]

like, alphabetical, or otherwise in the middle of std lib imports?

[swift sparrow]

By themselves or as part of another string?

[tame raptor]

Themselves

[granite wyvern]

Just alphabet with the stdlb imports. Eg:

from contextlib import contextmanager
import os
from os import fstat, pread, SEEK_SET, SEEK_CUR, SEEK_END
import mmap
from stat import S_ISREG
import sys
from threading import Lock, Thread
from typing import List

Third party imports separately below, then package internal imports below that if relevant.

[swift sparrow]

it still sort of depends

!e

anime = ['naruto', 'one piece (garbage)', 'dr stone', 'one punch man', 'bleach']

print(anime[3], anime[4])

[edgy kraken]

:white_check_mark: Your 3.14 eval job has completed with return code 0.

one punch man bleach

[swift sparrow]

you can just use a comma to print multiple things

if you want another list of those 2 anime, we can use slicing

!e

anime = ['naruto', 'one piece (garbage)', 'dr stone', 'one punch man', 'bleach']

print(anime[3:5])

[edgy kraken]

:white_check_mark: Your 3.14 eval job has completed with return code 0.

['one punch man', 'bleach']

[cerulean ravine]

the standard form is import from stdlib (alphabetized), then from import from stdlib alphabetized, then third-party, then first-party.

[ashen jungle]

got it got it 👍

[cerulean ravine]

cameron's style is very unusual.

[granite wyvern]

It's entirely a personal preference.

[rare gazelle]

from typing after import?

i put from typing first

[tame raptor]

You need to be odd to be number 1

[tame raptor]

Aightttt

[ashen jungle]

ah this is great to know regarding from imports, i wasn't clear on the standard for those before

[tame raptor]

I’m defending Homer’s relative

[cerulean ravine]

use ruff, it will arrange your imports

[ashen jungle]

i have been separating them anyway

[rare gazelle]

i dont like linters formatting my code

[ashen jungle]

yes 👍 i think i'm going to keep my typing imports below all the others

because of personal preference

[cerulean ravine]

for example: https://github.com/nedbat/human_spider/blob/main/spider.py

[ashen jungle]

if i use an autoformatter that puts it in with the other std lib imports, though, i won't stop it

[cerulean ravine]

sure, don't try to stop an autoformatter

[ashen jungle]

actually i did just get ruff

i'm having fun trying new things like ruff and ty (i've never used type annotations before)

[ashen jungle]

the philosophy of black seemed respectable so that's why i thought i'd like ruff for formatting

[rare gazelle]

thats reasonable

i do it the same way, more or less, but from first, then import

[ashen jungle]

thanks, looks pretty clean

[rare gazelle]

https://github.com/pandas-dev/pandas/blob/main/pandas/_typing.py

Imports are always put at the top of the file, just after any module comments and docstrings, and before module globals and constants.
Imports should be grouped in the following order:

Standard library imports.
Related third party imports.
Local application/library specific imports.
You should put a blank line between each group of imports.

https://peps.python.org/pep-0008/?utm_source=chatgpt.com#imports

[quasi shuttle]

shameless utm_source

[ashen jungle]

i guess typing technically is included in standard library imports

wasn't that text written before typing existed though?

[granite wyvern]

Why would typing be spcial?

[rare gazelle]

yea i asked chatgpt if there's a style guide for this

i looked at django, pandas, flask

flask is import then from

isort seems to do import then from

in the pep8 page i didn't find anything in that regard, just that paragraph

[final hollow]

I put my typing imports in a TYPE_CHECKING block

[rare gazelle]

the pep8 states the order, but not if import is before from

[ashen jungle]

i guess a couple things different between it and other packages are that it doesn't affect how the program functions, and that you might generally import it in every module in a project that has type annotations

[trim valley]

hi

[final hollow]

from typing import TYPE_CHECKING

if TYPE_CHECKING:
    from typing import Literal

[trim valley]

have you guys used pygame

[ashen jungle]

it seems reasonable to separate logic/imports related to typing and logic/imports related to program functionality

[swift sparrow]

I'm sure some here have used it. Did you have a question about it?

[rare gazelle]

i dont think thats smart

[ashen jungle]

hello

[trim valley]

could you try out my game?

[rare gazelle]

you wouldn't be able to do instance checks or anything like that (with those types)

[swift sparrow]

You could try posting it in the #game-development channel if you're looking for people to try it out and give feedback

[final hollow]

Right. If I were needing to do instance checks then I would import typing outside of that block

[rare gazelle]

https://isort.readthedocs.io/en/latest/configuration/options.html#from-first

the default is False

[rare gazelle]

why importing it in that block to begin with

[final hollow]

Copying what I've seen other people do

[rare gazelle]

🤔

[quasi shuttle]

is this not going to give you runtime errors without deferred annotations

[final hollow]

That's why I defer annotations

[rare gazelle]

you normally use that when you want to import stuff that normally, can't be imported at runtime, but only used for type checkers

[final hollow]

Right. And I don't use the typing module during runtime typically. If I were to, then I would move it outside of the type checking block. In fact that's what I do in one of my files where the typed are required at runtime

[rare gazelle]

TYPE_CHECKING's value is False at runtime, and True to type checkers

[final hollow]

I know that

[rare gazelle]

uh alright then

i wonder if you'd analyze the typehint at runtime what would happen

[final hollow]

I don't do isinstance checks against stuff in the typing module typically. If I needed to, then I would move the typing import outside of the type checking block so I could use them at run time. I also defer annotations. I do this so I can use new typing features in older Python versions without needing to use typing_extensions. This works, and I've tested it against each Python version in ci

[rare gazelle]

from __future__ import annotations

if TYPE_CHECKING:
    from collections.abc import Callable

def a(b: Callable):
    ...
    
from typing import get_type_hints

print(get_type_hints(a))

it errors

name 'Callable' is not defined

[rare gazelle]

thats smart, i see

[rare gazelle]

i think that this is impossible at runtime

you can get the name in annotations, but not the real type

[tame raptor]

vegetables = ['celery', 'tomato', 'broccoli', 'onion']
del vegetables[1]
print(vegetables)

I forgot tomatoes are "fruits"

[rare gazelle]

i wonder whats the reasoning behind TYPE_CHECKING to begin with

SupportsKeysAndGetItem for example

[rare gazelle]

thats funny

[spice hill]

in what sense?

[rare gazelle]

why not make them importable

whats the need for this _typeshed

[spice hill]

oh

uhh

[stray field]

For importing types that aren't real

[spice hill]

something something Conway's law

[stray field]

Typeshed types don't exist at runtime, hence needing to import with typechecking

[rare gazelle]

i understand that, the question is why

[final hollow]

I really wish they implemented TYPE_CHECKING being in builtins without needing to import

[rare gazelle]

you can make them real types

[stray field]

Py3.15 lazy imports will probably remove the need for it

[spice hill]

People maintaining typeshed are a different set from people maintaining Python, and typeshed moves at a somewhat independent pace. So it could just be that people don't want to bother arguing about including these things in Python at runtime

[stray field]

Copy them into your own codebase

[final hollow]

You're correct

[spice hill]

Yeah, I think it's a bit silly to have imports from typeshed. Just vendor them into your program/stub

[tame raptor]

so .pop( ) is the same as [-1]?

[stray field]

No

[spice hill]

pop removes the item from the list

[tame raptor]

the last item ?

[rare gazelle]

the solution is that you do this typechecking thingy... but that solution has drawbacks

not a very good design in my opinion

[rare gazelle]

yea but not everyone is gonna do that

[swift sparrow]

yes, but we don't use negative with pop

[rare gazelle]

if TYPE_CHECKING:
    from _typeshed import ...

is a common pattern

so get_type_hints can't be 100% reliable

since it can error... a situation i didn't think of

the whole idea of if TYPE_CHECKING is weak design choice in my opinion

perhaps i should try to stop using it at all

https://github.com/python/typeshed/blob/main/stdlib/_typeshed/README.md

from typing import TYPE_CHECKING

if TYPE_CHECKING:
    from _typeshed import ...

[jagged belfry]

What situation is that?

[rare gazelle]

^

the type doesn't exist in runtime, therefore it can't be resolved

[ashen jungle]

it's an interesting approach

[jagged belfry]

Note

If Format.VALUE is used and any forward references in the annotations of obj are not resolvable, a NameError exception is raised. For example, this can happen with names imported under if TYPE_CHECKING. More generally, any kind of exception can be raised if an annotation contains invalid Python code.

Yeah, I'm just not going to argue about that whole thing

It's not worth it

IMO the design is fine.

Assuming you can construct proper values from type structures in real time is not as simple as it sounds

[rare gazelle]

if the type exists at runtime you can grab it

[jagged belfry]

Linear execution is fundamentally exclusive with cyclic type definitions. You can't have both

Unless you want to run a resolver of some sort (and/or re-execute module imports with TYPE_CHECKING on), there's not much you can do here

[rare gazelle]

not sure what u're saying

when TYPE_CHECKING is on, that block doesn't get executed in runtime

[jagged belfry]

The purpose of TYPE_CHECKING is twofold:

• to break cyclic dependencies introduced by types referencing types defined after them
• to avoid importing heavyweight typing instances when not required

[rare gazelle]

class SupportsKeysAndGetItem(Protocol[_KT, _VT_co]):
    def keys(self) -> Iterable[_KT]: ...
    def __getitem__(self, key: _KT, /) -> _VT_co: ...

whats cyclic about it

[jagged belfry]

...nothing?

I said what the purpose was, not what everyone uses it for

[rare gazelle]

then why its in _typeshed

[jagged belfry]

idk ask their devs

I'm just saying

[zealous lion]

!pep 781

[edgy kraken]

**PEP 781 - Make ``TYPE_CHECKING`` a built-in constant**

Status

Draft

Python Version

3.15

Created

24-Mar-2025

Type

Standards Track

[jagged belfry]

there's trucks and cars. You have to pick one. TYPE_CHECKING allows you to selectively decide "I want a car"

[zealous lion]

maybe we'll see it in 3.16

[jagged belfry]

The rest is down to the implementer

[stray field]

We have lazy imports at home

[rare gazelle]

i think that your reasoning might make sense in some scenarios, although i'm not sure which

yet it can be problematic

[ashen jungle]

not to change the topic, but how do you all document module variables?

[rare gazelle]

what you mean by that

[jagged belfry]

Module variables as in globals or module variables as in constants

[stray field]

Triple quote on next line

[worn sage]

someone hire me bro

[rare gazelle]

we dont hire people in here

this server is not for such purposes

[ashen jungle]

like how to write docstrings for a variable (x = 5) defined in a module that can be imported

[jagged belfry]

!rule 9

[edgy kraken]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[stray field]

x = 5
""" :) """

[rare gazelle]

uh i see...

[jagged belfry]

Does this work?

[ashen jungle]

👍
i've seen this and it looks great to me
i've also seen

#: documentation here
x = 5

do you by chance know if any of these is more standard?

[stray field]

Its not standard, but Pyright supports it

[worn sage]

oops

[stray field]

And mkdocs

[jagged belfry]

Comments are more standard, I believe, if only because I've seen them more

[rare gazelle]

thats interesting

well, i dont do any of this, so i dont know

[ashen jungle]

might be a dumb question, but, when do type checkers look at docstrings?

[ashen jungle]

this is good news for me 👍

[stray field]

There's also annotaed docs. ```py
x: Annotated[Literal, Doc("")]

[rare gazelle]

^

[shrewd plinth]

Is it a constant? IS it a class?

[rare gazelle]

uh, those i've seen

[ashen jungle]

now i'm curious if pycharm recognizes any docstrings for module variables actually, i'll check

[shrewd plinth]

Maybe I just need more sleep, but I'm not sure what you mean by module variable in this context

[stray field]

The lsp needs to know what function you're calling to show the documentation.

[ashen jungle]

a constant would be a fine example, yeah

[rare gazelle]

note the pyright doesn't support this

from what it seems, only unalivejoy example is supported

[ashen jungle]

i didn't realize pyright handled displaying of documentation too 😅 thanks. i thought it was just about adding squiggly lines when types didn't match

[stray field]

I think Ty supports it too. Not sure about jedi or pylsp or rope

[ashen jungle]

👍

[rare gazelle]

and i didn't know about it, its new to me

[pulsar spear]

Hello

[shrewd plinth]

I don't think there's a universal suggestion, but I've seen some strategies to just use a regular """ """ afterwards, do a # comment before, or make it part of an enum so docstring shows up but imo that can be a bit misleading

[rare gazelle]

hi there

[ashen jungle]

pycharm does support triple quotes as docstrings for module variables 🎉

[shrewd plinth]

Yay!

Just make sure that whatever doctool you're using (if you're using an autodoc tool) is compliant with it

[rare gazelle]

Annotated is also a fine solution

[stray field]

Not enough for the pep to be accepted

[ashen jungle]

yes! i'm planning on using mkdocs so i think i'm in the clear

[stray field]

Don't.

[ashen jungle]

oh

[stray field]

Use zensical instead

!pip zensical

[edgy kraken]

zensical v0.0.41

A modern static site generator built by the creators of Material for MkDocs

Released on <t:1778337329:D>.

[rare gazelle]

what pep

[stray field]

!pep 727

[edgy kraken]

**PEP 727 - Documentation in Annotated Metadata**

Status

Withdrawn

Python Version

3.13

Created

28-Aug-2023

Type

Standards Track

[ashen jungle]

is it like a more modern version of mkdocs?

[stray field]

Yes

And the new mkdocs maintainer has plans for 2.0 to remove plugins

(Lovelydinosaur)

[rare gazelle]

uh

[ashen jungle]

i think i need a latex plugin in my case

[tame raptor]

is c a good first lang

[robust ledge]

Python is a good first lang. What do you want to build?

[ashen jungle]

so there may be a high chance i will try zensical

[steady rain]

I think the learning curve is too steep.

[tame raptor]

no idea

[swift sparrow]

Why are you learning python?

[rare gazelle]

why not

[tame raptor]

its better than doing nun

[fiery yarrow]

iirc, either you or godly suggested that c as a first language makes it likely a last language

[swift sparrow]

I suppose that's a good reason

[shrewd plinth]

There are benefits to learning C as a first language, but it is pretty rough.

[final hollow]

Why this over Sphinx?

[ashen jungle]

no reason that i can think of

[tame raptor]

i dont have time to learn py after school i open codium and its already 10 pm

[stray field]

You can use sphinx if you want.

[rare gazelle]

uh its a phrase i mean...

[tame raptor]

ima need to lock in this weekend

[steady rain]

godly might have worded it that way. I've said that I think people who start with C are more likely to give up programming entirely.

[ashen jungle]

i know i'm just agreeing

[rare gazelle]

you're not invested in mkdocs yet right haha

[rare gazelle]

ooo

[ashen jungle]

nope, haven't tried sphinx, mkdocs, or zensical yet

[shrewd plinth]

The benefit to learning C first is that in academia going for a CS degree often has you learning the fundamentals and building up, and C is a language that does not abstract all those fundamentals away, so it's useful in that regard.

That being said, there is a lag/delay time between you learning to code and actually being able to create something meaningful.

I think, to gain and keep interest, first language should be something else but C is a good language to use when you're actively learning about CS fundamentals.

[fiery yarrow]

i wasn't quoting but paraphrasing, and in this case, i was apparently remembering your comments
-# unless you both believe the same thing

[rare gazelle]

you can even try them all to be fair

[shrewd plinth]

But don't tell them that you're using other autotooling, they might get jealous and it leads to drama

[ashen jungle]

from reading online, somewhere i got the impression that sphinx is "getting old", but i can't comment on it at all myself

[robust ledge]

What are you trying to accomplish? Is this for a project or for school?

[shrewd plinth]

Sphinx is... fine.

[tame raptor]

self growth

learning

[steady rain]

@chilly whale I'm exercising directorial privilege to ping you and ask if you think C is a good first language.

[robust ledge]

Cool. Python is certainly open for that.

[shrewd plinth]

Someone's going mad with power!

omg did I ping him too >.>

[steady rain]

you didn't. replies only ping the person you're replying to.

[robust ledge]

!learn
Any language will do, @tame raptor . Python has a lot of resources available if you don't already know what you want to do. Other languages don't have as much support there.

[edgy kraken]

Go-to beginner resources

Here are the top free resources we recommend for people who are new to programming:

• Automate the Boring Stuff — an online book (also available to purchase as a physical book)
• Harvard’s CS50P course — video lectures (slides and notes provided) with exercises
• Python Programming MOOC 2026 course — text-based lessons with exercises
• Corey Schafer's YouTube playlist

For a full, curated list of educational resources we recommend, please see our resources page!

[shrewd plinth]

Is that a new thing?

[chilly whale]

no

[shrewd plinth]

Because they certainly used to

[fiery yarrow]

must resist extremely relevant simpsons gif

[ashen jungle]

true!

[steady rain]

it was new several years ago.

[shrewd plinth]

I still remember the Lemon fiasco

[steady rain]

yeah, that was fucking hillarious

[rare gazelle]

but to be fair i know sphinx is considered very good

[robust ledge]

Objectively hilarious.

[shrewd plinth]

So hilarious. It's still pinned

[steady rain]

maybe I should reenact it but with 420k people instead of 90

[chilly whale]

C's not the worst first language, but it's not great. It does a terrible job of helping you figure out why your program isn't working.

[shrewd plinth]

There are definitely worse languages than C to learn first

[chilly whale]

oh, absolutely. But there are definitely better ones

[shrewd plinth]

ASM, stuff that only works for mobile, etc

Yeah, no disagreement here.

[rare gazelle]

what was that

[rare gazelle]

i claimed in here btw, before, that i didn't understand C# properly until i learnt C

[shrewd plinth]

Only admins had everyone ping permissions, so a new user tried to ping everyone, but lemon responding telling them to knock it off DID ping everyone

[fiery yarrow]

#ot1-perplexing-regexing message
4th-to-last pin in ot0

[tame raptor]

@robust ledge fyi while i was in class i was like i cant wait to go back home to hop on codium

[steady rain]

#python-discussion message
lemon replied to quoted someone who tried (and failed because they lacked perms) to ping everyone. but because lemon was a director, it did in fact ping everyone.

[shrewd plinth]

You can still see the massive spike in people leaving the server

[chilly whale]

I'm not saying not to learn C. I think it's a very good language to know. I don't think it's a good language to learn first

[shrewd plinth]

when looking at historical data

[ashen jungle]

👍 it's the one i've always heard about, except until recently

[shrewd plinth]

Learning C is like.... you already know you like programming and want to stick with it

So I guess I'm in the "not first language" camp

[rare gazelle]

🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣

[shrewd plinth]

If you don't know if you'll like mario kart, don't play against the person that tries way too hard to humiliate you for your first game

and C will humiliate you

[ashen jungle]

🙃

[shrewd plinth]

That said, if you already know C, you can ramp pretty damn quickly to other programming languages. The C -> Python ramp was remarkably smooth

although switch/match case still trips me up

[tame raptor]

what is pandas

[shrewd plinth]

The best animal

and best data science library

and a 3d gaming library that I've never used

[robust ledge]

A data science library for handing, well, data.

[final hollow]

Does zensical work with rst files?

[shrewd plinth]

pandas live their lives with wild abandon

[shrewd plinth]

no idea, never used it. Sphinx has been enough for projects where I've needed to care

sp[hinx for most modules, then for the important stuff I just did it myself

directly

[rare gazelle]

one of the funniest things i've seen in a while

[ashen jungle]

don't forget that pandas are bears. and how you would react if you saw any other non-panda bear.

[shrewd plinth]

How many members left the server the day Lemon pinged everyone?

[steady rain]

I'd have to ask joe

[shrewd plinth]

Pandas are my spirit animal. Or fursona. Whichever is more politically correct

Their experience just resonates with me

just randomly falling from trees, eating shit as they go down slides, etc

[rare gazelle]

i think that Python is a better choice, but C# for example, is a worse choice
i think OOP confused me, C got me to be strong on the core, understand how things work, and even i appreciated more the normal for loops, while loops, the very basics

[tame raptor]

is python docs a good way to learn py

[shrewd plinth]

I would not recommend C# as a first language

[steady rain]

my city did a public transit rewind with stats about your use of the system (based on the serial number of your transit card), and it assigned everyone a mascot based on their usage profile. my transit fursona was an explorer dog.

[robust ledge]

!learn
Try some of these resources to start.

[edgy kraken]

Go-to beginner resources

Here are the top free resources we recommend for people who are new to programming:

• Automate the Boring Stuff — an online book (also available to purchase as a physical book)
• Harvard’s CS50P course — video lectures (slides and notes provided) with exercises
• Python Programming MOOC 2026 course — text-based lessons with exercises
• Corey Schafer's YouTube playlist

For a full, curated list of educational resources we recommend, please see our resources page!

[shrewd plinth]

I do think python is a really good first language. Because it shortens the friction between trying out programming and actually being able to see something that you've made

But also.... it becomes obvious if you've only used python to program when you're discussing CS fundamentals

[chilly whale]

and it's quite good at helping you understand why something didn't work

[shrewd plinth]

That is true, the error messages tend to be more helpful

[chilly whale]

don't underestimate the value of seeing a traceback automatically when your program has a bug

[shrewd plinth]

Yeah

[robust ledge]

It also has an absolute massive community to support learning. Project idea, tutorial, and the like.

"What do I program" is a question that can be tough for those interested but without a clear goal.

[fiery yarrow]

the worst part, i think, about using c or c-like languages is the absolute garbage support for basic data types.
"uh hi, how do i make a string? also i want to know how long it is"
"turn back now, dear newbie. there is no path forward but to suffer. such is the way of the c strings"

[tame raptor]

idk how to say this but i dont like these

[robust ledge]

What don't you like about them?

[tame raptor]

i wanna learn with the documentationnnn

[shrewd plinth]

I think I just.... my "problems" with python are similar with my problems with vibe coding, it helps people make things where they have no idea what's happening or how it works. Having to work with people like that can be frustrating when they're also stubborn.

[robust ledge]

What will you build with the documentation?

[tame raptor]

idk waht to build

[robust ledge]

That's what the resources I suggested will solve. Until you have something to build, the documentation isn't much help.

[fiery yarrow]

aye, sometimes i strongly wonder if maybe python is too easy

[shrewd plinth]

I'm not trying to be gatekeepy. But it is genuinely frustrating working with someone who looks semiqualified on paper but has no idea what they're doing and refuses to learn.

[tame raptor]

checkmate i guess ill use many sources of the one you gave like automate the boring stuff and the harvard thing

so 2 sources of learning

[robust ledge]

That's a good tactic. Many resources can give you more information than one.

[tame raptor]

!learn

[edgy kraken]

Go-to beginner resources

Here are the top free resources we recommend for people who are new to programming:

• Automate the Boring Stuff — an online book (also available to purchase as a physical book)
• Harvard’s CS50P course — video lectures (slides and notes provided) with exercises
• Python Programming MOOC 2026 course — text-based lessons with exercises
• Corey Schafer's YouTube playlist

For a full, curated list of educational resources we recommend, please see our resources page!

[rare gazelle]

i agree, to be fair, maybe i'm not even sure if python as a first langauge is bbetter than C

[charred tusk]

Yo Preocts, wanna feel like you're back on helpdesk again?

[rare gazelle]

i guess i dont really have an answer for this one, since Python wasn't my first language

[robust ledge]

You could even just use Automate the Boring Stuff for "what to build" and the documentation for "how to build". Each chapter has small projects to complete.

[robust ledge]

This isn't a helpdesk?

[shrewd plinth]

Maybe it's more of a problem how these languages are taught? Idk

[rare gazelle]

programming didn't really sit in my mind until i learnt C, my second language i guess

[charred tusk]

#ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare is playing https://servicedesk-simulator.com/
It's giving me a panic attack

[tame raptor]

what do you think of python crash course the book

[charred tusk]

Did someone publish something about that book?

[shrewd plinth]

Honestly, early in my life I sort of just tried like..... every language. Then engineering academia forced Matlab, then cs courses forced C, then a job I got forced python, lol.

[slow rivet]

Personally I think python then rust is a really good order, because as discussed python is a very good intro. And rust introduce you to the concept of lower level memory management, but still with actual good abstractions

[charred tusk]

I've seen like it five times this week

[shrewd plinth]

I might pick up rust. But also, C is still incredibly valuable to know

[fiery yarrow]

i got yer simulator, right from that website's front page
"of course i restarted the computer. twice now in the past 15 minutes"
computer: UPTIME: 91d 21h 45m 55s

[charred tusk]

What about Zig?

[rare gazelle]

the simplicity of C makes it a very good language to learn

i wonder what happened to A and B \s

[shrewd plinth]

To clarify, I'm speaking most specifically to the job market

[dusty ember]

yoo

you should

[fiery yarrow]

asm is simpler than c ya know

[shrewd plinth]

There's one position in my industry that is looking for an algo dev who knows both Python and C++ (in the life sciences) and I've gotten literally 20 recruiters reaching out to me about the same position

It's ridiculous

[manic osprey]

simplicity?

[robust ledge]

I think it's a book that many have used. So long as it gets you writing code, it's a good book.

[robust ledge]

Easy fix. Don't play it.

[dusty ember]

yeah i've seen a lot more rust in industry than i have zig

[rare gazelle]

i'm talking more about... getting programming to sit in your mind

[shrewd plinth]

Yeah, like... how good a programming language is I consider somewhat separate than how hireable it is

[dusty ember]

it's a really small language with not a lot of features (which is why it's simple). doesn't necessarily mean it's easy, though.

[rare gazelle]

i found C to be very useful for that

[rare gazelle]

i really hate asm

[shrewd plinth]

Maybe one day I'll think of languages outside of the direct context of how much it contributes to finding a job, but today is not that day.

[dusty ember]

apparently unis used to teach their intro to programming courses in lisp

it'd be cool to bring that back

[fiery yarrow]

a doesn't exist. c came from b, which came from bcpl, where the b is short for "basic". b is nearly dead outside hella legacy stuff

[shrewd plinth]

I think either b or vb was my first language

[rare gazelle]

feels like i know nothing then lol

[shrewd plinth]

like decades ago

[rare gazelle]

b stands for basic?

[granite wyvern]

Computer Science courses experiment with various "first languages".

[shrewd plinth]

Yeah

I learned it at a summer camp

That summer camp was so fun because they had bought starcraft and you could play starcraft in daycare after the lessons were done

[granite wyvern]

The b in bcpl stood for basic.

My first language was BASIC, then Z80 assembler.

Then at uni Pascal and C and Bourne shell. Then other things....

[final hollow]

Which one

[dusty ember]

MIT i believe? im sure there were more

[rare gazelle]

C isn't an acronym though

[final hollow]

Probably Racket then

[shrewd plinth]

I coded pid controllers in ASM. It was a fun challenge, but I don't think a particularly like.... usable skill

[dusty ember]

oh, you were talking about what kind of lisp

[shrewd plinth]

like it was educational and is a cool flex

[tame raptor]

whats a good vs code theme

[shrewd plinth]

The class that had you doing systems stuff in ASM was a masochist class most people failed, lol

[fiery yarrow]

wat
are you actually serious

[dusty ember]

seems like it is some sort of scheme

[shrewd plinth]

pid controllers with essentially 0 latency was pretty intense from a physics perspective

[dusty ember]

speaking of racket, i think https://htdp.org/2026-2-25//Book/index.html is a rather pleasant "intro to programming" book.

[fiery yarrow]

asm might be too low level, but coding PID controllers is hardly unusable

[shrewd plinth]

Oh, agreed

[rare gazelle]

too low level is the definition i guess

[surreal knot]

that sounds fun :-)

[rare gazelle]

also, asm is very different than any other language i know

[dusty ember]

i like gruvbox material

[shrewd plinth]

My point was that ASM is not the optimal language for it. You can code faster in C and the memory/speed is not meaningful enough to suffer through the pain

[rare gazelle]

no common syntax, no common attitudes

[final hollow]

I don't have the required physics or math to know how to program a PID

[shrewd plinth]

Honestly, it's sort of misleading to describe ASM as a single language at all

[dusty ember]

wouldn't a c compiler spit out faster machine code than assembly you could write in the majority of cases anyways

[shrewd plinth]

It was!!!

Writing in ASM was slow

[rare gazelle]

asm is never fun, stop lying

[fiery yarrow]

yeah i'm with mtn here. i've done asm. meh

[shrewd plinth]

I thought you were commenting on relationship status at first

[fiery yarrow]

the worst type of typo 😔

[shrewd plinth]

Doing PID in ASM was mostly useful as an exercise in understanding how they worked, how registers worked, etc

[final hollow]

SMB and other NES games were programmed entirely in 6502 ASM

[dusty ember]

yeah like ultimate said, "assembly" just kind of describes all of the languages that are more or less 1:1 to their machine code instructions for a particular architecture

[rare gazelle]

they almost found about us

[fiery yarrow]

heyyo ult: as asm fella, thuri has asm question:
MOV SRC DST or MOV DST SRC?

[shrewd plinth]

Are you trying to bring back the nightmares

[fiery yarrow]

i'm trying to judge you

[tame raptor]

@dusty ember you know ball this theme is nice

[dusty ember]

so it makes sense that there's not a common syntax, because you aren't working with common instruction sets.

[shrewd plinth]

I haven't touched ASM since academia

I didn't see much sunlight when I was taking that course. So much time in the lab from early morning to when the sun was already down

[rare gazelle]

yea, but i mean, comparing asm to C, or js, or java, or c#, etc, its not similar to them at all

[shrewd plinth]

ASM is lower level than pretty much anyone will ever need in the modern day

[dusty ember]

well, yeah, you're comparing what is essentially machine code to "real" programming languages.

[grim hatch]

It's lower than Assembly?

[rare gazelle]

yea, i guess

[fiery yarrow]

alas, ult of chaos shows not knowlege but wisdom, and avoids answering the trap question 😔

[fiery yarrow]

ASM is short for assembly

[grim hatch]

Oh, I think people should code in it at least once in their lives

[dry yacht]

Hah, we had a group project in 2nd semester (4th for me 🐒 ) where my group had to implement Huffman compression in handwritten assembly (though we were allowed to use C for I/O, as well as for the option parsing via getopt).
That was... interesting

[grim hatch]

It could be an eye-opening experience

[shrewd plinth]

It has been a while, but is it just asking the difference between x86 vs ARM? Well, not specifically that, but assembler dependent

I really hated group coding projects in college because I wound up doing them all myself

I mean it was fine ig, I got the grade

[viscid hinge]

what level of type checking do you guys run?

[dusty ember]

i usually run pyright strict

[rare gazelle]

alright, cya guys, thank you for the conversation, was fun

[shrewd plinth]

I worked with ARM in academia, but found that most jobs these days that mention microcontrollers are talking about the intel/x86 architecture

[full rune]

!!!

[viscid hinge]

my project worked fine, but as soon as i turned on type checkin gholy it didnt like what i was doing lol

[fiery yarrow]

MOV SRC DST is part of the otherwise-awful sigil-addicted at&t style, MOV DST SRC is the abomination in the otherwise-okay intel style
both for x86

[shrewd plinth]

The answer is that I flipped over the assembler manual and looked up the syntax it needed 😂

[dry yacht]

That particular one I just mentioned was actually pretty okay. We were a group of 3, one of the guys was a friend from school who started with me, the other guy was a random, but tbh the random was probably the best of our group.

Unfortunately my friend apparently had a pretty shitty implementation. About 1-2 years after the assignment I took the code, and re-wrote his part in pure, relatively naive C, and it was about 50x faster overall :/

[charred tusk]

All of my code passes mypy strict and ty

[spice hill]

isn't dst := src the way it works in high level programming languages?

[shrewd plinth]

<insert admiral ackbar trap gif>

[spice hill]

Did you have type annotations in the project? Were you running with less strict type checker settings prior?

[fiery yarrow]

that doesn't have the mov part, though. imagine swapping the order for something like os.rename

[shrewd plinth]

Now my question to you is how you feel about command line copy source destination

[viscid hinge]

its was OFF before but the project was running fine. Its very small and basic. But i turned it onto basic and had to fix some stuff like add the str and int to body and tags:

    @classmethod
    def dict_to_note(cls, d: dict):
        return cls(
            id=d["id"],
            title=d["title"],
            body= str(d.get("body")),
            tags= list(d.get("tags")),
            priority= str(d.get("priority")),
            creation= str(d.get("creation")),
            done=d.get("done", False),
            pinned=d.get("pinned", False),
            archived=d.get("archived", False),
        )

though tags is still giving me Argument of type "Unknown | None" cannot be assigned to parameter "iterable" of type "Iterable[_T@list]"

[spice hill]

You need to decide if you want type checking or not. It has both benefits and downsides.

[fiery yarrow]

if this is an editor question, i don't use either vim nor emacs

[viscid hinge]

ohhh, so its just for like, cleaner code? im a bit confused

[shrewd plinth]

I admit that I still have to lookup the order things come in for a lot of module functions that require two arguments. 3 or more is fine, it's when it's just two that I'll sometimes get it mixed up

Is it sane to use typing as like.... annotation more than enforcement?

I mostly just want docstrings to be clear and obvious

and signatures

[spice hill]

The three main reasons people use type annotations:

• prevent certain classes of bugs
• precisely document interfaces of functions/methods/classes
• allow for better refactoring and navigation
  For example, in this method you're passing d.get("tags") into list(). d is a dict[Any, Any], so d.get(<str>) is of type Any | None. The value can be None, but list() only expects an iterable, not None, so this is a type checking error. (and it happens to show a real problem that will happen at runtime)

The main downsides:

• you need to learn the type system -- the model of python that type checkers understand. It gets quite complex and the resources for learning it from scratch aren't great
• you might need to adjust a lot of bug-free code because your type checker doesn't "understand it" (since it has a limited number of supporte dpatterns)
• you might not like to clutter the code with annotations if you don't like them aesthetically

[shrewd plinth]

Yeah, I'm in category 2. I don't really use type annotations when I'd be using lots of Nones or Anys or whatever that just isn't clear

[viscid hinge]

thanks fix error thatys great info. For now, and this project ill keepo it off. I guess it can be project dependant

[fiery yarrow]

4: make the ide shut up

[spice hill]

It is a bit controversial, but I would recommend against using annotations without type checking. You will inevitably annotate some functions incorrectly, and readers will be confused (if someone else is going to read the code).

[shrewd plinth]

But then they have to keep you employed so that you can answer questions about the code, guaranteeing your job security ||/s||

[brisk gazelle]

They told me to write secure code. They didn't specify what kind of security.

[grim hatch]

Isn't it more like it's gonna speak more

Cause it's gonna warn you

[fiery yarrow]

not having sufficient and correct type hints can induce a ton of warnings/errors if type checking features are turned on

you can always turn them off, of course

[quasi shuttle]

i dont think anybody should be making new python code without type hints

[cerulean ravine]

it's ok to write code without type hints. the real problem is writing type hints but not checking them.

[quasi shuttle]

why write code without type hints? i assume the developer knows the type when theyre developing, why not annotate it?

[cerulean ravine]

perhaps it's clear enough without them. We wrote Python for 20 years without type hints. Perhaps it's not a program that will be kept for very long.

[cerulean ravine]

sometimes the types are not simple to express

[ashen jungle]

i have a real life example i think, which is functions that represent mathematical functions

you might want to allow them to be used with normal python numbers, but also numpy arrays, and also other kinds of arrays (tensorflow, etc.), or maybe arbitrary precision numbers, or symbolic objects like in sympy

[quasi shuttle]

i think its rare that thats the case for the majority of types in a program, i understand some cases can have complicated types but thats not a reason to not type the whole program - using mostly typing + some any is better than no typing

[ashen jungle]

(in my case, protocols might help, but they weren't perfect either)

[swift sparrow]

slows me down

[cerulean ravine]

i agree that type hints improve most programs

[swift sparrow]

my IDE is going to call me out on type clash issues anyways

[quasi shuttle]

negligibly

[swift sparrow]

I'm in the same camp as ned. Of course they will improve the program, but it's not like code without it is unusable/unreadable

[ashen jungle]

in general, i'm still a bit confused on how to reconcile duck typing and type hinting in python

[swift sparrow]

def foo(param: duck)

[ashen jungle]

i try this but the duck always flies away

[harsh field]

i need help with a project a friend made for me but gave me the source code to, i don't know to use it.

[cerulean ravine]

you reconcile them by using type annotations that describe how the thing will behave, not what it exactly is. A function takes a list? Probably use Iterable as a type hint.

[swift sparrow]

Didn't they give you instructions?

[quasi shuttle]

i think overhead of adding typing info (to new code) is worse any future pain from no typing, to me adding type hints is just a part of creating a function signature

[harsh field]

no, he just gave me his "source code" to a tool, i've never used python too know what that means.

[cerulean ravine]

it's great that you find them natural and useful.

[swift sparrow]

Why would your friend give you code that you don't know how to run without instructions?

[pallid garden]

perhaps the instinct stems from other languages you know

[swift sparrow]

What does the code do?

[gray siren]

Hello

[quasi shuttle]

for typing python? i think the instinct is just from writing typed python by default for a few years now (hence why i would encourage others to do the same)

[pallid garden]

i struggle to write javascript nowadays

[dry pike]

see that's where you went wrong

[pallid garden]

same for python without type hints

[dry pike]

you have to write typescript

why struggle to write javascript when you don't have to write it at all!

[pallid garden]

typing has become such an essential part of my programming habit

[quasi shuttle]

i had a period where i kept trying to add typehints to js code, but realistically writing js is always a pain because of how awful the language is

[pallid garden]

for an interview though

just let me use typescript

[dry pike]

just write typescript then delete all the typescript parts after

[quasi shuttle]

i actually started writing jsdocs in js code and hoping my ide would give atleast some typing info when i was calling things

[dry pike]

yeah I have done that before

[quasi shuttle]

typescripts typing system sounds really cool, but i dont think ill ever get to use it

[pallid garden]

part of the appeal is that your lsp helps to catch silly mistakes

using the typing info

though i guess that probably speaks as to how messy i am as a programmer

[quasi shuttle]

everyone makes silly mistakes

[pallid garden]

i genuinely think that it would be easier for beginners if you help them set up their lsp properly first

[ashen jungle]

say the function is

def add(x, y):
    return x + y

i think i'm confused on where to draw the line between:

• the most general type hint, which i think is using x: Addable, etc., where Addable is anything that supports addition, and which i believe will flag the same arguments that would cause errors at runtime
• and something more restrictive, which would indicate what the function author intends x to be (e.g. something number-like but not a string)

[harsh field]

if anyone could help me use this source code thatd be awesome

[swift sparrow]

What is the code?

[pallid garden]

you may want to post it in #1035199133436354600 if it's long

[harsh field]

its a "remote access trojan" but theres no malicious intent it's purely a project.

[swift sparrow]

yeah we're not going to help you with malicious code even if your intents are good

[pallid garden]

i think if you have to preempt with that

you already know the answer

[swift sparrow]

!rule 5

[edgy kraken]

Rules

5. Do not provide or request help on projects that may violate terms of service, or that may be deemed inappropriate, malicious, or illegal.

[harsh field]

alright well, then could you tell me how to make a source code into a executable.

thats not against any tos.

[brisk gazelle]

@harsh field It seems you have been met with a refusal. Sorry, it was right there. 😁

[swift sparrow]

That's not really something someone with zero python experience will be able to do. We're happy to point you to some beginners resources though if you'd like to learn more about python

[harsh field]

take your life

[quasi shuttle]

well

[pallid garden]

it's nice having a mod in the convo

you dont even have to ping

[brisk gazelle]

I may live long or I may not. Patience is a virtue.

[harsh field]

it's the python discord server?

[swift sparrow]

!ban 1501644635565592676 asking about malicious code and unacceptable messages to another member

[edgy kraken]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @harsh field permanently.

[swift sparrow]

like speeding in front of a cop

[pallid garden]

how do i make a nuclear bomb?
we dont help with that
ok can you teach me how to create tritium, that's not against the rules

back to python

[quasi shuttle]

writing malware in python is an interesting take

[swift sparrow]

"my friend gave me this code" is usually slang for "I downloaded sketchy code online"

[pallid garden]

writing malware in python is an interesting take

[ashen jungle]

i've also heard the idea that type hints for public functions should be more general, since it's harder to anticipate how the functions will be used, while those for internal functions should be more precise

[swift sparrow]

like how open accepts bytes, str, or pathlib objects

nothing makes me happier than when I'm working with a new library and it naturally accepts pathlib objects

[ashen jungle]

i think so, yes

[pallid garden]

i mean... internal functions can also be more general, if the function works for children objects, right?

[ashen jungle]

i'm not completely sure what you mean by children object

[pallid garden]

like objects of classes that extends some parent class where the function is meant to operate on the parent class

idk if im making sense

i havent written python in a few weeks

[lilac shore]

Hii

[cerulean ravine]

as the author of the function, you can decide what types it will accept.

[pallid garden]

but like the author could have this idea as a guideline to help make them decide how to type the function

[ashen jungle]

in my case, i'm thinking of a mathematical function again, like add(a, b). if it's only used internally and always with floats, the type hints for a and b could be float. but if it's part of the public API, you might not want to restrict others to only using it with floats

[lilac shore]

what's going on everyonee

[cerulean ravine]

true, you might not want to limit it, but that's your decision as the designer of the API.

[ashen jungle]

ah i think i understand. i think what i mean is that if the function is just used internally, it will be clear what classes will be passed to it. there's no need to anticipate the "public" making their own new class that you haven't included in the type hints

[quasi shuttle]

the built in + already dealt with this problem for you

[ashen jungle]

this makes sense. part of my issue might just be that i'm dealing with some functions arguments that i might want to be very general. i suppose in this case i can just use a very general type hint, then. and in other cases, they can be more precise

[fiery yarrow]

this reminds me of an older post on the python subreddit that plays devil's advocate against type hinting, specifically showing issues with accurately yet fully hinting

def slow_add(a, b):
    time.sleep(0.1)
    return a + b
``` noting, to their pain, that more than just numbers can be added together

[pallid garden]

true

[swift sparrow]

"anything that implements __add__" typehint

[ashen jungle]

yes! but in my irl case, add is some more complicated math function that isn't built in or in another library

[pallid garden]

omg it's a trait

rust reference!!1!1!!1!1!

[fiery yarrow]

that's attempt 4. they stop at nine

[swift sparrow]

I think I just won't typehint and save everyone the trouble

[chilly whale]

note that in Python's type annotations system int is treated as a subtype of float

surprisingly

[fiery yarrow]

the top comment is that - essentially "if it sucks this hard, then just use any"

[pallid garden]

ive noticed that if my object is hard to type, it's probably because the data structure is wrong

[ashen jungle]

i need to sit down and read this thoroughly, the first part sounds a lot like what i'm going through

[ashen jungle]

(this is my current decision 😮 maybe it'll be the last)

[fiery yarrow]

ah, pandas. how useful ye are, yet how horrifying thine types be 😔

one of the downsides of lambdas, too 😔 can't put in type asserts

[pallid garden]

proper closure when

[fiery yarrow]

try-except expressions when

[pallid garden]

everything-is-an-expression when

[chilly whale]

no one has ever proposed syntax for lambdas that allow more than 1 expression that ever got much community buy-in

[quasi shuttle]

pythons lambda syntax is horrible anyways

[ashen jungle]

yes 👍 this has worked out nice for me at least, it seems like a reasonable choice

[fiery yarrow]

sometimes i wonder if adding lambdas would be rejected if they weren't already in

[ashen jungle]

i think the current syntax would be rejected, at least

[quasi shuttle]

theres probably a few justifiable cases, but the current syntax makes them sufficiently obnoxious that they arent used much else anyway

[quasi shuttle]

i hope

[pallid garden]

python 4: removed lambdas

[chilly whale]

hm? They're used quite a lot

[fiery yarrow]

key= my beloved

[pallid garden]

i personally dont use lambdas

[fiery yarrow]

how does it feel having never called sorted or .sort in your entire life

[chilly whale]

a quick, unscientific grep for lambdas in the stdlib finds just shy of 2500 of them

$ git grep 'lambda.*:' **/*.py | wc -l
2436

[quasi shuttle]

sorted and callbacks mostly, however i try to not use them at all

[fiery yarrow]

Results for any search with code search are restricted to 100 results (5 pages)
bruh
why does github add a magnificent feature before severely restricting its use and then crippling it

istg if the slop floodbots are ddosing the code search 😡

[quasi shuttle]

yea, but restricted to a few specific classes of use cases i assume?

[chilly whale]

I don't really know what you mean by that...

they're used whenever you have a function that needs to be referenced at only one place and whose body is a single expression

[quasi shuttle]

as in sort keys, filter keys, and some callbacks, whereas in other languages its typical to use a chain of anonymous functions when working with things like lists using .map

[chilly whale]

Python would use list comprehensions or generator expressions in that case instead, typically

[quasi shuttle]

yea ig im just trying to express my dissatisfaction with how hard it is to express some functional concepts in python

[cerulean ravine]

list comps are functional

[spice hill]

It's weird how "functional programming" somehow encompasses two pretty unrelated ideas, immutable data and passing functions around as values a lot

[quasi shuttle]

i wasnt a fan of functional programming until i had to parse csv data and turn it into useful results, the interface for just doing things to lists is amazing

[sour flicker]

hey guys

how can i learn python?

[swift sparrow]

If you're new to the language, we have some beginner resources here you can check out

!learn

[edgy kraken]

Go-to beginner resources

Here are the top free resources we recommend for people who are new to programming:

• Automate the Boring Stuff — an online book (also available to purchase as a physical book)
• Harvard’s CS50P course — video lectures (slides and notes provided) with exercises
• Python Programming MOOC 2026 course — text-based lessons with exercises
• Corey Schafer's YouTube playlist

For a full, curated list of educational resources we recommend, please see our resources page!

[rugged barn]

In Python, what's the single most trivial way of quickly numerating all directories which $USER has permissions to?

Stressing on quickly

I'm thinking subproc + find, but is there anything cheaper and just as quick?

Well, "quick".

[lost lagoon]

You check each files and folders for permissions lol

[rugged barn]

That... sounds like a bad idea, and rather expensive
Which I'm trying to avoid

[lost lagoon]

Or you could ask the OS for the info about the files especially the permissions

You can easily get those information

[rugged barn]

...Okay? Directories have permissions and one could find out, but you're still not answering my question

I'm crawling through a very large HDD + NFS.
So, I'd like to minimize syscalls + stat calls

Naive approach has been running for the past thirty minutes and I don't have the time to wait that out

[inland karma]

good morning!

[rugged barn]

'Figured it out'

[chilly whale]

what did you settle on?

[rugged barn]

import os
from concurrent.futures import ThreadPoolExecutor, as_completed

def scan_dir(path):
    subdirs = []
    try:
        with os.scandir(path) as it:
            for entry in it:
                if entry.is_dir(follow_symlinks=False):
                    subdirs.append(entry.path)
    except (PermissionError, OSError):
        return []
    return subdirs

def crawl(root, workers=8):
    results = []
    queue = [root]

    with ThreadPoolExecutor(max_workers=workers) as ex:
        while queue:
            futures = [ex.submit(scan_dir, p) for p in queue]
            queue = []
            for f in as_completed(futures):
                subdirs = f.result()
                results.extend(subdirs)
                queue.extend(subdirs)

    return results

[inland karma]

kinda looks like iterdir with an concurrent executor

how does it compare?

[quartz fulcrum]

eivl....the project ,that is given to me, is very overwhelming

[rugged barn]

It's pretty much that, though Google says os.scandir is much cheaper than iterdir

[inland karma]

if you count what? sys calls?

[inland karma]

build something else instead

[rugged barn]

And regular Python overhead, yes
os.scandir apparently returns you a DirEntry straight from the OS dir stream, and said objects cache metadata from readdir

entry.is_dir skips an entire stat call

[quartz fulcrum]

do you know any good place where i can find projects?

[inland karma]

what happends if you try out ProcessPoolExecutor or InterpreterPoolExecutor instead?

[rugged barn]

That would be a great question, I don't know

[swift sparrow]

What are your other interests?

[inland karma]

the ones that are good are the one you make yourself

[rugged barn]

I suppose it might be worse?

Or the same.

[quartz fulcrum]

matgs

maths

[inland karma]

depending on how you read and use it, there might be a slight difference. sometimes you expect that the overhead of a process pool is to large, but it is better... but for IO operations, threadpool will wiin on paper

[swift sparrow]

so make something related to that. Some sort of equation solver or maybe even a visualizer

Think of something that you might personally find useful

[rugged barn]

Yeah, it's strictly I/O

[quartz fulcrum]

okay ..i will try

[rugged barn]

I suppose it would win out if I was doing anything other than enumerating them

[inland karma]

when i did the 1brc i tested with multiprocessing pools and threadpools and found expected results during the whole process

[rugged barn]

Say, hashing or parsing

[inland karma]

the 1brc is all about parsing text

[grizzled sinew]

heya everyone

are there people here who are in university right now?

[rugged barn]

Several of us

[grizzled sinew]

i am actually out of ideas
i want to make some tool for my uni people cuz its very easy to advertise it
like there are already alotof them like attendence tracker cgpa tracker
i was working on a ranking based website of leetcode but someone else did it before me
now i am looking for ideas
does ur uni have some amazing tool? plz do tell

[terse mauve]

Probably, ask you question to get responses:)

[grizzled sinew]

hiii

[terse mauve]

hello

[terse mauve]

someone else did it before me
So?

[grizzled sinew]

bro does your uni have some amazing tool?
just dont mention dating platform or something 😭

[terse mauve]

I'm not in uni...

[grizzled sinew]

i see

[ashen jungle]

how about an AI-use tracker

tracks how much time or how often you spend asking chatgpt or ai

[grizzled sinew]

actually a great and unique idea
thanks sir
btw incredible user name
i just had my applied physics exam yesterday 😭

[ashen jungle]

thanks and nice

was it the final?

[grizzled sinew]

yup

finally my sem is over

[ashen jungle]

🎉

good luck tho

[molten heron]

Hey guys!!
Can you tell me what to do first DSA or OOP

[ashen jungle]

welcome

[ocean ridge]

Whats ur aim?

[ashen jungle]

as far as i know they're both great to know

[velvet trout]

Yo chat

[ocean ridge]

hello

[grizzled sinew]

i did dsa first
look for dsa you have leetcode and all so dsa is not very boring
if u are very new to programming i would say dsa

[molten heron]

Right now I'm in a transition phase between college and exams so I'm self learning python. I have a firm grasp on the basics ... But I'm not able to decide between OOP and DSA .

Aim: I want to become an AI/ML engineer

[molten heron]

Yo

[ocean ridge]

DSA sounds better for ur aim i guess.

[velvet trout]

Yo 1.616255e-35

[grizzled sinew]

doesnt matter what is your aim
i think dsa is important because in the process of practicing it you develop this ability to think the logic and code
again i am very new to all this too
but i did develop some programming habbit because of dsa

[molten heron]

🤘

[molten heron]

Thank you guys!!

[velvet trout]

You're welcome 1.616255e-35

[ashen jungle]

in what units

[velvet trout]

Apples

meters is implicited for readability xD

[molten heron]

Where you from??

[velvet trout]

i am from Terra

[peak relic]

Anyone from Gaia?

[molten heron]

Neh

[raw bramble]

why is …e29 and things used rather than scientific notation with … * 10^whatever

[spice hill]

5e6 is an established convention, it's not something Python invented. And it's shorter than 5 * 10**6

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_notation#E_notation

<...> Because superscript exponents <...> can be inconvenient to display or type, the letter "E" or "e" (for "exponent") is often used to represent "times ten raised to the power of"

[raw bramble]

I know it’s not a Python thing, I’ve just never understood why that notation is used when *10^x is more easily understood (end much better looking)

also m/s rather than ms^-1

[sacred charm]

hey guys

[raw bramble]

ms^-1 just looks better, and ms^-2 is better than m/s/s

[sacred charm]

can anyone help me in the #1035199133436354600

[spice hill]

Once you know what 5e6 means, is it really harder to understand than 5 * 10**6?

[fiery yarrow]

ms⁻¹ is not better, and nobody would actually do m/s/s. instead m/s² or, if one must avoid exponents in any form, something like (m/s)/s

[spice hill]

ms⁻¹ is better if you need to fit the text in one line

uhh no ignore me

[fiery yarrow]

m/s oh hey look a single line

[spice hill]

yeah, I was thinking that m/s in text refers to the vertical m/s

[fiery yarrow]

of course, if you really want to be chaotic, eschew metres per second for metre-hertz

[raw bramble]

I feel it is justified to be annoyed by kph meaning kilometres per hour

I can understand it on road signs, but why not km/h elsewhere

Or kmh

[spice hill]

I was thinking of units like m^3 kg^-1 s^-2 which would be really awkward to write with a slash

[raw bramble]

This is what made my love of exponents so concrete

[iron remnant]

How many lines do professional swe’s write/modify in a work day?

[fiery yarrow]

m^3 / (kg s^2) what horrors

[fiery yarrow]

maybe 2

[raw bramble]

Specifically this unit

[spice hill]

For some reason our road signs never mention the unit of speed. Only for distance, weight, and frequency

if the sign is for a speed limit of 60 km/h, it just says 60

[fiery yarrow]

are they many (any?) countries for the which the speed may be in more than a single unit

[velvet trout]

y'all should standardize

[swift sparrow]

sometimes -5

[spice hill]

Imagine that you're driving from the US to Canada. In the US road signs say miles per hour, in Canada they say km/h.

so that you don't forget which unit is used

[fiery yarrow]

near the border, twould be wise to have units, sure

[swift sparrow]

I think there might be a sign right after crossing the border that says something like "Alert, the road signs are now in mp/h"

[spice hill]

probably

apparently different parts of Canada have slightly different signs, according to Wikipedia

um

maybe it's a good idea to move to #ot1-perplexing-regexing

[narrow garden]

hello

[raw bramble]

I guess UK? Metric except for distances and speeds on roads

(And beer)

[jagged belfry]

Yes, and frequently they have both measures on them

[granite wyvern]

Out here speed limits in km/hr are encircled with a big red circle. (They're all km/hr here anyway now, but the convention dates from the cutover.)

... like the 60 sign shown here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilometres_per_hour
but we have a bare 60, no units.

Unfortunate embed. There's another pic on the page itself a little lower down.

[fiery yarrow]

rip to eso i guess

news organisations such as Reuters and The Economist require "kph"

[blissful sequoia]

hello

[pallid garden]

why does this speedometer start at 20...

unstoppable car

[hot glen]

i stopped python for like 2 months

i think i forgot everything

[swift sparrow]

welcome back 🙂

[hot glen]

my pc broke

[hot glen]

hii

was a problem with the motherboard

got it replaced

[orchid lily]

😮

[hot glen]

is 64 gb ram nvidia quadron k2200 and intel (r) xeon (r) e5 1650 v4 good

thats my new setup

[swift sparrow]

You don't really need powerful specs for python

[inland karma]

decent programming pc

[hot glen]

no way

decent

then whats good

[hot glen]

im js asking

[spice hill]

Where did you get that CPU?

[inland karma]

well... something new will be in that bucket

old cpus are still not slow, but they tend to use more power than somthing produced now

[spice hill]

actually, it's only 3 years older than my CPU. i forgot how time works

64GB of RAM is good though

[inland karma]

im getting a new desktop later this year

[slender urchin]

This year has been kind of lack luster in terms of hardware releases

[inland karma]

except for the annoncement yesterday you mean?

AMD Ryzen PRO 9000 Series

[slender urchin]

We'll see
The ones that recently released are a couple % faster at like double the price

[inland karma]

ill have to wait and see and compare it with the threadripper pro

[orchid lily]

how did this chanel specifically made for PYTHON TALKS turn into the channel where we talk about CPUs 💀

[inland karma]

you can run one python instance pr core you have

so for some python workloads, having a good cpu makes sense if you have to use python

[near knot]

pip install poop

[granite wyvern]

Perhaps it would be inaccurate at such speeds. Does leave some extra angular room for the graduations of the rest of the scale.

[inland karma]

yes, old european cars used cables and tension to show speed, and the machinics involved makes it most accurate in the middle of this distrobution

so more in regular driving speed

some good old german engineering 😄

im personally dont like that we measure distance/time for cars

i find the inverse beeing much better

[oak oyster]

A CPU that isn't from 11 years ago

The ram is a huge overkill and prob only new ish part in the pc

[jagged belfry]

64 gigs of ram is 64 gigs of ram

[slender urchin]

What is your goal with that pc?

[jagged belfry]

If your webserver is python you can do a lot with that

[inland karma]

yeah, ram is never overkill, it depends what you use it for

[jagged belfry]

Hm.

How much ram does my webserver currently use...

about 40 meg per instance, of which there's 6, for my api

[inland karma]

only 40

[jagged belfry]

and 9.6mb for my rust engine I serve my blog from

[inland karma]

uvicorn?

[jagged belfry]

yes

[inland karma]

its such a great written piece of software