#N'Garde. Vanilla-Friendly Parry and Active Block.

17177 messages · Page 18 of 18 (latest)

inner hare
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but let's not pretend that it will suddenly make Tribunal MQ great or sth

hearty scroll
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I'm not ^^'

inner hare
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it will be more bearable, but that's it

rustic latch
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I mean, if we had good writers and a spread of TB related questes across OE, Aanthirrin, etc

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Some intrigue

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errands for Alma and Helseth

hearty scroll
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Another critic I've heard was that there was a lack of character motivation to actually go through the MQ. Nothing compelling to make the PC do the quests.

This would require more extensive writting changes to remedy

rustic latch
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Tongs of Alamalexia

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it can be great

inner hare
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yeah, integrating it with the world

rustic latch
inner hare
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but you still need to enhance that content

rustic latch
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It's literally content for the sake of content

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like a wow dungeon

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and about as good

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which is to say

inner hare
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lack of player agency is noticeable

rustic latch
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dogshit

inner hare
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I think it's even worse on a second playthrough

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since you know this stuff already and won't be surprised by anything, you notice many more issues

rustic latch
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I've played through it twice. That's why I wont' do it again till 2090

inner hare
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there is also the problem like Skyrim TG has

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you can't do shit even though you know what's coming

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and I don't mean just hindsight

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but you have to follow that linear story which has "traps" set for you

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so in Tribunal in order to progress, you need to do stuff which may feel like sth that your character wouldn't be doing at all

rustic latch
inner hare
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and the best way to deal with this becomes not to engage with it at all

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actually, even if there was a way to say

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"I'm done with this bullshit"

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that would be better, lol

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and I know that this is what one of the mods did

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they added an alternative path

inner hare
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it's like you would have to "work with Dagoth Ur" as part of MQ plotline, with no way around it, and he would betray you at some point or sth

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this is the kind of BS we are talking about here

hearty scroll
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I had the reverse dissapointment with the MQ ^^'

When you meet Dagoth Gares or whatever his name was, and he tells you to go to Red Mountain, one day I said "alright" and walked straight to Dagoth Ur. Only for Dagoth Ur be all "wth are you doing, you're not ready, leave now, come back where you're ready". It was a let down. "but you told me to come?"

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😅

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Like, don't be a tease if you won't deliver

inner hare
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yeah, but he could be shitting you with this as well

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and by "work with Dagoth Ur" I mean a forced linear path

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unavoidable

hearty scroll
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yeah, I get it

inner hare
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if it was some option, then that would be a different story

hearty scroll
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I'm trying to think of quests with similar reveal "surprise, I was using you for my own purpose", and the only one I came up with was the ||Bal Foyen|| Temple questline in TR, and I think it's actually well done, in a way that doesn't invalidate your actions leading up to it.

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Like, even knowing it in advance or suspecting it, you could still have motivations to go through with it

inner hare
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I would say that Skyrim TG actually has the benefit of being an optional faction questline

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while Tribunal is MQ

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technically, it is optional, but canonically it's sth which happens

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so...

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it really suxx that there are no other ways to deal with this

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the alternative path in one of the Tribunal MQ is kind of interesting, although it should be noted that it seems to be heavy ESO-inspired and that's a can of worms as well

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I guess it's because ESO had a lot of Sotha Sil content

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and it still does nothing with Alma tbh

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and from what I know, ESO doesn't do much with her, either

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just a bitch

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that's not cool for a Tribunal member, I think

hearty scroll
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especially since the way she is portrayed from the perspective of the population and Temple members seems really glowing, very benevolent. Making pre-madness Alma a bitch just because the only glimpse of her we get in TESIII is the mad god she became is so... uninteresting

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And makes little sense

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like, it's reductive

inner hare
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yeah

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I think that there is a story here somewhere. That descent into madness thing. You could make Alma cool if you provided enough context.

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Everybody thinks Dagoth Ur is cool

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and he wants to kill you and can be considered mad

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he has enough aura farming to be memorable

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and his story seems interesting, the way it's all intertwined with the Tribunal

hearty scroll
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Dagoth Ur has the advantage of a tragic backstory

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Depending on what version you believe, the event at the Battle of Red Mountain can portray him as the most loyal friend of Nerevar

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Mind, there's definitely material for tragic storytelling for Alma too, it's just a matter of building up to it

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Like, if the MQ confronts you with all the good she might have brought to Morrowind, before the final reveal that she's descended into madness and you can see the shell of herself that she became, suddenly the climax become much more poignant

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that's just an example of one way to approach it

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But if she's bossy in the fist place, and just makes you go through quests after quests that everybody seem to agree are just a shore, and you don't even have any strong emotional investment into it anyway, you're not really in the right mindset when she finally confronts you huhu

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I'm kinda talking out of my arse based on what criticism I always hear of Tribunal MQ, as well as everything I watched/read about Alma interactions. I've never actually played through much of Tribunal myself

native haven
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Dagoth Ur Gay

inner hare
# hearty scroll Mind, there's definitely material for tragic storytelling for Alma too, it's jus...

yeah, that's why I mentioned it before. And even if not "tragic", at least it could be interesting. There just doesn't seem to be done enough for her.

This is weird because the base game build ups Vivec very well and he has some interesting things to say. His role in this whole thing is also rather ambiguous. You can hate him, like him or shrug it off. There is plenty of backstory to support this. He is a memorable character. I don't think they did anything like that with Alma at all despite the fact that you need to confront her.

I mean, the fight with her is much harder than the one with Dagoth Ur in Vanilla, so in theory, it should be easier to remember all of this. A character doesn't even need to be very complex or have a ton of dialogue to be memorable. Malenia in Elden Ring says only a few sentences, yet she has like cult status already. That's what aura farming does. Damn, Alma even has red hair (the best kind for a woman which is Objective Truth) and yet she is no Malenia at all. Tribunal's curse.

inner hare
hearty scroll
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wait no, it's from the 10th of june huhu

inner hare
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I fixed it last week!

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check the note above installation instructions

hearty scroll
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I think there's also the fact that at this point, you already know the Tribunal as "impostors", so you might be less sympathetic.

Dagoth Ur and Vivec are presented as bad and good guys respectively, right from the start. But throughout the MQ you learn more and more about the past and that things may not be as they seem.
It makes you question who to trust, and makes you think about possibilities.
The MQ makes you think about how things were, and how they are, and at the end you carry all this with you as you finally meet the gods (Vivec and Dagoth Ur) and contrast what you see with what you though of them.

The buildup basically primes you for the finale : it's what you'll have in mind while you confront the current reality and sort the mess.
The contrast can make you feel regret, righteous anger, anything; it makes the fight feel heroic, or tragic, doesn't matter as long as it feels some way

I'm not sure what Tribunal MQ makes you think of before the final confrontation...

hearty scroll
hearty scroll
inner hare
hearty scroll
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So it makes a good job at making the meeting with Sotha Sil momentous (then deprive you of it). But what does it make you think of Almalexia (if anything)? Before the finale.

inner hare
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just a bitch

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it's a nothingburger, I think

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if it's literally just a bitch, that's not engaging

hearty scroll
inner hare
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your character may not want to do that

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but there is just nothing else you can do

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you have to do all her chores

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because there is no other way to progress

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you can refuse to do the Tribunal MQ, of course. I mean, ignore. That's an option I take nowadays every time 😄

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but as a player, you want to experience it at least once, right?

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to see what it has to offer

hearty scroll
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I see

inner hare
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you has to do her bidding

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at some point

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because otherwise, there is no Tribunal MQ

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no way to progress

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note that it doesn't happen right at the beginning

hearty scroll
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Way to break immersion huhu

inner hare
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and funnily enough, the other bits of Tribunal are better

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I mean, optional ones

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misc quests are quite well done.

hearty scroll
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"I'm doing this because that's what the game is"

inner hare
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and Helseth stuff is optional

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and it's actually more interesting than Alma stuff

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of course, when you need to go some dungeon, it's pretty much always sewers

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so there is nothing there

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but when you do all the little misc quests in the city itself

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small stuff

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that can be fun

hearty scroll
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...Now I feel like playing. I'm going back to work on my install huhu

inner hare
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well, if you NEVER played Tribunal

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then it's fair to at least see what's it's about

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have you played Bloodmoon btw?

hearty scroll
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Yeah, just not finished it. Played much more of that DLC than Tribunal DLC

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though it's been a while

tropic fulcrum
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you can install sotha sil expanded if you want to

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never used it but it looks big

inner hare
tropic fulcrum
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lol

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it's an addiction

wet tendon
inner hare
wet tendon
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yeah it wasn't necessarily the art I was impressed with, it was their attention to detail for some things

inner hare
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Fair

wet tendon
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like the collapsing elevator and the next to last boss fight

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and some of the trap rooms

inner hare
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It looked high effort, but I sort of wish for sth a bit more subtle with art direction.

wet tendon
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i've seen mods with procedural dungeon generation lol

inner hare
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Meh

wet tendon
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so i've decided that having critical casting is cursed

rustic latch
native haven
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Destruction Magic is all fun and games until they spam you with enemies with Reflect.

inner hare
native haven
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cries in apprentice

rustic latch
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Apprentice is a utility mage sign. Alteration/Mysticism/Conjuration + Big stick

native haven
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Yeah but shooting a fireball is more fun.

inner hare
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Well, using buffs instead of offensive spells is also an option. Alternatively, combine dmg with short term high % resist effect for protection or use healing to counter reflected dmg.

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with Reflect, the worst kind of spells or items are those who are potential one-shots. If sth can kill you in 1 sec, it's not a good idea.

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I had good experience with switching weapons. For example, in an Argonian playthrough I had a short sword with high Poison dmg and a spear with short-term Fortify Strength on self.

native haven
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I just have to press F9 if I accidentally shoot an enemy with reflect

inner hare
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that won't won't with Wake Up

native haven
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I'd probably drop the game after the first minor inconvenience with that mod

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Having to replay a decent chunk of content in a Bethesda game from not saving in awhile is more painful than pretty much any other game.

inner hare
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it's great. I think it does even more for stealth than combat btw. When a load means that you would have to replay the last 5 minutes, for example, you are encouraged to deal with stuff tha happens on screen one way or another if you are detected instead of just reloading and trying again instantly with no penalties.

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I tend to avoid save+load gameplay in RPGs, anyway. Dealing with mistakes, salvaging the situation, trying to repair the dmg etc. are all things that can make the game more memorable.

native haven
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Just read all of Vivec's sermons, understand CHIM, use your CHIM by pressing ~, click on an owned item or container, type luag and press enter, then type selected.owner.recorded=nil and press enter, finally type selected.faction.recorded=nil, and then press escape to stop harnessing your CHIM and take your new non-owned item.

real onyx
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people who use N'Garde with controller - what's your bindings look like? what button do you use to block? and where you move action that was originally on that button?

simple bone
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Left trigger, had nothing bound to it anyways

inner hare
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btw any idea why "Shield only" was in red (settings) when I loaded the game post-update (this save is from a few weeks ago)?

simple bone
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Left bumper is prepare to cast, right is prepare weapon, right trigger is cast/attack.
A = Jump
X = Interact
Y = inventory
B = Back
Start = Pause
Select = open console

D pad = Quick key 1-8 (1 being up, 2 being diagonal up right, etc)

Becuase I play on Steam Deck, I also have the 4 paddles, which are also bound.
Top left = Toggle walk/run
Top right = first/third person
bottom left = also jump (rebound to A)
bottom right = also inventory (rebound to Y)

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Also have my trackpads set up, right is act as mouse, left is a scrollwheel

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(Have my next spell, previous spell set up to scroll down/up respectively)

real onyx
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wait, you can bind d-pad diagonals separately? or is this steam deck thing?

simple bone
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Wait, got mixed up - haven't played in a while.

Track pad left is set up like a numpad
1 2 3
4 5 6
7 8 9

D pad is:
up = previous spell
down = next spell
left = quicksave
right = quickload

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Had to double check xD

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I knew I had something set up with diagonals

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But that was trackpad, not dpad

real onyx
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well, yeah, steam deck/controller with their additional control surfaces are great

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I'm trying to make sane bindings on regular xbox controller

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and have 2 additional buttons on top of the block for the quick access wheels

simple bone
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tbf, other than the trackpad and paddle stuff, you can do more or less the same thing

real onyx
simple bone
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Run it through Steam, so you can use Steam Input for the more esoteric inputs

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I mean, do you need a way to act as mouse, or have quick-key inputs, when you already have quick-access wheels?

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My brain understands the PC UI more than the controller one, so my setup is to use the PC UI with a controller, as opposed to the controller UI

real onyx
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I mstly wonder where I should put the ready weapon/spell buttons

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although... with quick wheel I can cast easily, so ready spell can be on d-pad

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then I ove jump frol LT to some button

candid wren
simple bone
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Runs very good, there's even an installer specifically for it

candid wren
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Thanks

rustic latch
rustic latch
inner hare
rustic latch
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odd. But maybe caused by me adding translations for those setting values

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couple versions back

drowsy rain
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Hey. I think Skill Evolution is bricking the mod again

rustic latch
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Log, and versions

drowsy rain
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don't have a log on hand. I'd need to test again which I'll get to shortly - all I've got at the second is, had Skill Evolution enabled, most recent one, blocking did not work. disabled SE, blocking worked. enable the debug log option in settings, right?
They're both the most up to date versions from nexus

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so 2.2 SE, 1.3.2 N'Garde

rustic latch
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Yesterday's SE update?

drowsy rain
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mmhmm

rustic latch
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make sure SE is loaded before N'Garde

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both omwscripts and omwaddon files

drowsy rain
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sure is. would a delta merged file disrupt that?

rustic latch
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no

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yeah, can repro

inner hare
rustic latch
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yeah

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SE OnHitHandler it seems

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not sure why

inner hare
rustic latch
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Again NPCs are parrying each other and player, but player can't parry

inner hare
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Well, the mod worked like 2 days ago, so clearly a recent thing

rustic latch
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last SE update I think

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Mym changed when he registers his handlers

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hang on

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@jagged hamlet you around? An odd issue - ngarde is loaded after skill evolution, when SE interace is present i register my onhit through SE.
But it looks like it's never entered

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    if I.SkillEvolution and I.SkillEvolution.addOnHitHandler then
        logging:debug("registering SE onHitHandler")
        I.SkillEvolution.addOnHitHandler(onHitHandler)
    else
        logging:debug("registering regular onHitHandler")
        I.Combat.addOnHitHandler(onHitHandler)
    end
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This was the behaviour seen before 1.9.8 seems like the same with 2.2

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If I register onHit through main interaface - it seems fine, both for parry skill gain and for actual parrying. Which makes me think maybe no need to register through I.SE.addOnHitHandler

jagged hamlet
rustic latch
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oh, I think I know what's happening

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mHandlers.addHandlers(state)

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is called in the script body - meaning once

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So by the time N'Garde comes around and adds its handler to your externalHandlers table

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you have already added stuff and won't do it again

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so my onHit effectively doesn't exist

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probably should be an event somewhere to register with you

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so that addHandlers is called again when handler list changes

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    addOnHitHandler = function(handler)
        mHandlers.addOnHitHandler(handler)
    end,

in your interface, maybe should send a self event to add the new handler that just was registered

jagged hamlet
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hmmm maybe the interface is not relevant anymore

rustic latch
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So, in SE's player.llua

:

local function onRefreshHandlers()
    mHandlers.addHandlers(state)
end

and added to event handlers

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and interface function changed to:

    addOnHitHandler = function(handler)
        mHandlers.addOnHitHandler(handler)
        self:sendEvent("se_refresh_handlers")
    end,
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this is very rough implementaion

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cause it'd need to track which handlers are already registered

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but

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this made it work

jagged hamlet
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I don't think handlers can be refreshed: They already have been added to OMW

rustic latch
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right, which means you'd need to track which you've added and which not

jagged hamlet
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I would rather need an empty external handler that loops over current external ones

rustic latch
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or that

jagged hamlet
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and my current loop is so bugged!

local function skillUsedHandlerExternal(_, skillId, params)
    for i = 1, #externalSkillUsedHandlers do
        return externalSkillUsedHandlers[i](skillId, params)
    end
end

I only handle the first external handlers

rustic latch
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Only those that were added when your script runs.

But otherwise it'll loop correctly, if not the return :D. Thing is - when your script runs - there's likely no external handlers, cause no other script had a chance to poke your interface yet

rustic latch
jagged hamlet
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yeah

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something like that would be better:

local function skillUsedHandlerExternal(_, skillId, params)
    for i = 1, #externalSkillUsedHandlers do
        if false == externalSkillUsedHandlers[i](skillId, params) then
            return false
        end
    end
end
rustic latch
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Oh, you're trying to see if any handler in the chain is returning false

jagged hamlet
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yeah, official behavior

rustic latch
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yeah, that makes sense

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I'm looking at this method and thinking that if it has tracking on which handlers it has already added or not - combined with an event - it'll work as expected

module.addHandlers = function(state)
    local handlers = getSkillUsedHandlers(state)
    for i = 1, #handlers do
        I.SkillProgression.addSkillUsedHandler(handlers[i].handler)
        if I.SkillFramework then
            I.SkillFramework.addSkillUsedHandler(handlers[i].handler)
        end
    end

    local levelUpHandler = getSkillLevelUpHandler(state)
    I.SkillProgression.addSkillLevelUpHandler(levelUpHandler)
    if I.SkillFramework then
        I.SkillFramework.addSkillLevelUpHandler(levelUpHandler)
    end

    I.Combat.addOnHitHandler(function(attack)
        self:sendEvent(mDef.events.onPlayerHit, attack)
    end)
    for i = 1, #externalOnHitHandlers do
        I.Combat.addOnHitHandler(externalOnHitHandlers[i])
    end
end
jagged hamlet
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I don't think we need events here. Event also add a delay which can impact some approaches

rustic latch
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one frame on registering the handler should not be critical

jagged hamlet
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the onHit handler loop could be:

    I.Combat.addOnHitHandler(function(attack)
        for i = #externalOnHitHandlers, 1, -1 do
            externalOnHitHandlers[i](attack)
        end
    end)
#

I think reverse order is more faithful to the official behavior

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same for skill handlers

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what events could offer in addition to such an approach?

rustic latch
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so the new handler just sits in your externalOnHitHandlers but doesn't do anything

jagged hamlet
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it will still be called once, but it will add a function that iterates over a list of handlers that can be updated any time

rustic latch
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yeah

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that'll work

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and easier than whatever bullshit I came up with doitswit

jagged hamlet
#

🙂

rustic latch
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don't do hashing kids:

    for i = 1, #externalOnHitHandlers do
        if not addedOnHitHandlers[externalOnHitHandlers[i].hash] then
            I.Combat.addOnHitHandler(externalOnHitHandlers[i].handler)
            addedOnHitHandlers[externalOnHitHandlers[i].hash] = true
        end
    end
end
jagged hamlet
#

I have a working version that calls both your onHit and skillLevelUp handlers, would you be willing to test it?

rustic latch
jagged hamlet
jagged hamlet
rustic latch
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I was poking around seeing how tricky it would be to track which handlers are already added, and only add new ones when an event comes in

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but looping over a list is easier

rustic latch
jagged hamlet
#

fixed in 2.2.1

rustic latch
#

Tested with nexus version too, just in case - en garde works as expected

jagged hamlet
pastel vine
#

Thank you Mym

drowsy rain
#

Thank you!

jagged hamlet
#

each time I think my mods will stop to evolve, there is a new thing that implies refactorings, and then... bugs, e.g. Skill Framework, moving handlers to the script root, improving performances with custom scripts....

rustic latch
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It never ends 😅

jagged hamlet
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specifically on levelling mods, which are impacted by so many scenarios, settings, mod setups, chargen mods, mid-game installs, dynamically added abilities 😅 ....

rustic latch
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Oh yeah

jagged hamlet
#

but now it should be good 😄

rustic latch
#

🤞

jagged hamlet
#

moving to a Fresh Loot update

rustic latch
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Btw. Since you were installing n'garde with umo - I take it you were setting up for a new playthrough? Did you get a chance to play with it?

jagged hamlet
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haha not yet

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currently I only have a FL update on my todo list before I start a new game

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I'm eager to try your mod

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I only saw a few actors parying during my short tests, and I loved it

rustic latch
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Making NPCs behave somewhat naturally with it was a whole big thing 😅

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Let me know how it goes for you