Natural Character Growth (NCG)

[forest robin]

If you really want a "mutable" char, crank that SE and lose the skills you don't want.

[compact pagoda]

well, the point of NCG is that you can just play the game and don't worry about modifiers. It's also nothing like in Oblivion, as Oblivion had atrocious level scaling 😅 . So pick what seems fun to you.

IMO all weapon and magic skills can be good. There is no real "useless" skill here. It's more about playstyle.

[clear stag]

Thanks guys for all the replies!

[barren arrow]

NCG updates your attributes as your skills grow, regardless of level up. So if you raise a misc skill, it will increase your related attributes in real time even if misc skills don't contribute to level up (you can customize whether major, minor and misc skills count for level ups or not, and how much).
In oblivion, your attributes increased only at level up with multipliers depending on skills increased during that level, so you had to time your skill increases.

NCG basically decorrelates attributes increase from level ups, so you never have to worry about multipliers.

[slow juniper]

are you using the last NCG version? Because the line doesn't match the error, and I recently fixed a very similar bug

[soft lantern]

Latest, but I've confused the lines, it was late 😅 .

Let me redownload just in case

hmmm. I think it was on my end - can't force it to reappear after reinstalling even without re-downloading.

Disregard then

[slow juniper]

ok, no pb

[soft lantern]

Yeah, my apologies for the false alarm

[slow juniper]

I just published a new version with your suggestion attribute impact for the 2 custom skills

[soft lantern]

Nice!

[slow juniper]

the only boring thing about it is to write an attribute impact sentence to be added to the skill description.
Maybe I could do it with the code (great/good/fair/bit amount....) but it wouldn't translate well to other languages

well, the current translations are really outdated anyway

[soft lantern]

I've actually added it locally before suggesting, and was fully expecting the l10n line to be dynamic 😅 .

can do something like

impact: "develops your {stat} {impact}"
and have {stat} and {impact} strings in l10n file too.

Requires some shenanigans though - I did something kind of similar for "select" settings

[slow juniper]

yeah but there is also the case of multiple impacts at the same value: {stat1} and {stat2} {impact} ...

ok, I could write all the patterns in the locale file...

[soft lantern]

I was thinking stitching the long sentence from 2 or 3 short ones

it will read a bit more stilted, as naturally injecting too's and "as well"'s would be tricky

but can be done programmatically I think

[slow juniper]

yeah, and if a translator wants to contribute, I'll have to ask them how their sentences are constructed....

[soft lantern]

Oof, and you ship quite a few translations

yeah, maybe having the strings static is a better idea 😅

[slow juniper]

yeah, but... realy outdated
not sure many keys still match

[soft lantern]

Ope.

I wonder if it's this particular save that is borked somehow O_o

Yeah, most likely. Doesn't happen then after reloadlua. Definitely disregard for now

[slow juniper]

this is exactly the bug I fixed. Your saved data may have been generated with a previous bugged version

[soft lantern]

yeah, that may be the case

[fringe fossil]

shit

Picked Wretch background which sets all skills to 15 or less and attributes to 10 or lower

I definitely have "onChargenModRegistration" in onActive handler and "onChargenModFinished" firing correctly too. Why does this issue happens then? 🤔

And NCG initialization clearly waits for that "finished" event

[rapid horizon]

What happens when an attribute is negative? Like speed, for instance. Are you just unable to move at that point?

[fringe fossil]

it gets capped at 0

[fringe fossil]

@slow juniper got any ideas on this?

[slow juniper]

hmmm NCG should not display negative values

if you switch to 100% attribute start value ratio, what happens?

you should get back to 10

I think it's the skill growth part that lowers your attributes

[fringe fossil]

Likely

[slow juniper]

did you try to set 100% start value ratio?

[fringe fossil]

not yet, just got back home

[slow juniper]

which traits mod I have to install to test the Wretch background?

[fringe fossil]

The Wretched And The Weird

No external dependencies I think

[slow juniper]

hmmm I installed it but which trait name is it?

[fringe fossil]

Background > Wretch

[slow juniper]

thx

I did not have the background window the first time

[fringe fossil]

Strangely, it doesn't happen on my PC, but

• SE still thinks I suddenly lost a bunch of skills
• Skills still bump the some attributes up by 1 point

[slow juniper]

try last SE version

[fringe fossil]

Will do. Probably wasn't on the latest for SE

[fringe fossil]

Yup, it did the trick

[slow juniper]

cool

I just noticed the event approach fails with mid-game installs or OpenMW test mode because of wrong timings

I'm fixing it

[fringe fossil]

Still curious about the +1 stats
And whatever happened on my laptop with negative stats. Probably somehow connected with me not having SE there?

[fringe fossil]

I was testing it on a mid-game save, yeah. Saved just after you leave C&E office

[slow juniper]

ah

could you try with this version?

[fringe fossil]

PC with +1s or Laptop with negative stats?

or both?

[fringe fossil]

PC +1s are fixed, trying it on the laptop

[slow juniper]

I also have a +1 with some traits

[fringe fossil]

On laptop (mostly just a development setup with CTF + NCG, without SE) it's strange:

1. I pick Wretch background
2. I don't see any tootips and all
3. I open inventory
4. After inventory gets closed, my Speed gets bumped to 30 and I get message in the console from NCG initialization begins! without it ever finishing and showing in-game tooltips

here's what stat tooltips say

[slow juniper]

the +1 on my setup was caused by some +5 bonuses provided by my trait (I used both the wretched and mtr lineages mods)

I'm setting up my config with NCG and without SE to test

did you try a mid-game install, a test mode, a normal new game or a quick chargen mod?

works for me (NCG without SE + wretched)

[fringe fossil]

it was a mid-game install

[slow juniper]

hmmm I have no game save without NCG

[slow juniper]

The initial speed value is clearly wrong

Did you have any base speed modifier?

[fringe fossil]

No? It was a character that was saved right after finishing vanilla chargen sequence

[fringe fossil]

I might know what happened on my laptop

I've made that save right after the chargen without picking any traits. Perhaps NCG freaked out due to having to save without receiving the interop finish event?

[fringe fossil]

Because I've created a fresh character with this NCG and it went without a hitch

🧐

[fresh kite]

I don't think you're getting the limeware platter with that character

[slow juniper]

I'm not sure what to do in situations where the wretched background sets 10 to an attribute but the race/birthsign sets a bonus, like +15.
Such situations should not happen, because it would imply that the base value is -5

[slow juniper]

Ok, I think I fixed the +1 bug.
It happened when the real base values of attributes went below 5 (excluding base modifiers), which are capped at 5 by NCG, produced an unexpected final value, and resulted in wrong detection of extra modifier changes.
Please try this version.

[slow juniper]

NCG 2.0.8 released!

• Fixed mid-game install and OpenMW test mode when using chargen mods
• Fixed chargen attributes lower than 5 resulting in wrong final values

[cloud smelt]

Is it possible (if not already) to make this compatible with https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/58333?tab=description

[lofty edge]

I think they are compatible, I think there is a section in Skill Evolution that you need to update where it allows skill increases from books

[slow juniper]

Never tried the mod, but your solution seems right

[valid hazel]

I think as things stand now, the two are incompatible. SE acts before Reading is Good and zeroes out the skill gain. Reading is Good relies on applying a multiplier to the final gain. Once you add your handlers to the body, hyacinth will probably still need to use SE's interface function

[slow juniper]

I meant it should work if SE's setting is disabled

[valid hazel]

Even if that setting is disabled, Reading is Good won't work as intended if SE is installed.

[slow juniper]

Oh. Then it may work with next SE version

[valid hazel]

Probably, I think hyacinth will still need to add their skillusehandler using SE's interface

[slow juniper]

Why? SE will take the incoming gain as is

[valid hazel]

Because SE will likely manipulate the skill gain after Reading is Good has acted. Reading is Good doesn't use params.scale although it probably should, and it wants to apply its multiplier to whatever the final params.skillgain will look like

So it needs to insert just before SE's final handler

[valid hazel]

Actually maybe it doesn't. Do you ever add or subtract from the skill gain in SE, mym?

Or set it to a value besides 0, in the newest version

[slow juniper]

No, I only apply a scale on it.
If the incoming gain + scale matches the default content gain, then I may override the gain with the player's custom one, and in any case, I just apply my scale on the incoming gain

at the end, I set the gain to 0 mostly because of the "carry over excess gain" feature

[slow juniper]

NCG 2.1 released!

• Fixed jail time increasing the level progress when class skills are decreased
• The Lua "skill level up" handlers are now added at the script root
• This mod should be placed after Stats Window Extender and Skill Framework (if installed)

[compact pagoda]

Seems that load order becomes trickier even though it's lua 😄

[slow juniper]

This is how it should be according to OpenMW's devs... Not that complex

[compact pagoda]

I mean, compared to esp loading order it's nothing

[slow juniper]

Yeah, maybe because Lua offers ways to simplify the order constraints

[fringe fossil]

Well, we can and should make dependency checking utilities now

I have one already :)

[compact pagoda]

How about checks for launcher settings?

[fringe fossil]

Only once API lets us do it

[compact pagoda]

@sly locust how about checks for launcher settings?

[sly locust]

there aren't any useful launcher settings

I'm going to assume you mean launcher.cfg

[compact pagoda]

Some mods literally rely on launcher setting being on or off.

[sly locust]

so do you don't mean launcher.cfg

[fringe fossil]

The gameplay ones are useful, though 🧐

[sly locust]

don't call them launcher settings

[fringe fossil]

They can be set only in the launcher, though!

And some other file, probably

[sly locust]

or through editing the file. or through changing the source code and rebuilding the engine

whatever

I think there was a reason settings.cfg isn't just exposed in a generalized way

maybe because settings.cfg changes all the time and you can't rely on any setting to still exist, it's not API

individual gameplay settings getting their own bindings is counterproductive, most of them should be mods

[sly locust]

people simultaneously hate breaking changes and simultaneously want things that would be prone to breaking changes, be careful what you wish for

[compact pagoda]

IIRC there is no way to even display a warning in-game if any of the options is turned on/off despite the fact that some mods won't work properly

SE mentions this

N'Garde requirements

two big and popular mods and both rely on some settings being turned on/off in order for them to work properly

[sly locust]

I'd ask urm questions about this

[soft lantern]

I mean, yeah. But for an average user they are "settings that are in the launcher"