#Natural Character Growth (NCG)

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slow juniper
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This mod's first version is an extract of NCGDMW Lua Edition, on which I did many improvements, and added many features.
The player levelling and automatic attribute growth features have been extracted from NCGDMW to create this mod.
The skill features have been extracted to another mod: Skill Evolution.
The goals are:

  • Split the huge Lua code into 2 different mods, to ease the maintenance
  • Improve the modularity of mod setups

https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/57801

Nexus Mods :: Morrowind
Natural Character Growth

A leveling mod where your attributes grow automatically as your skills increase.

slow juniper
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Changelog for v1.0:

  • Changelog 1.0 describes changes from NCGDMW 4.6.5
  • Removed most skill features: Uncappers, Decay, All kinds of scaling, Skill uses gains, Training caps and durations, Skill ups from books, Carry over excess gains, Magicka Refund, MBSP
  • Removed skill features are now available in the Skill Evolution mod
  • Requires the wonderful Stats Window Extender mod
  • Moved player level progress, HP and attribute value details, and other relevant info from the stats menu to the character stats window
  • Added an attribute progress bar in the attribute's tooltip
  • The stats menu has been replaced with a messages log window
  • The date and time info are no longer available, but you can use the nice mod "TimeHUD - A Clock UI widget" instead
  • Fixed broken attribute values when changing their growth rate setting mid-game
  • Small fixes and improvements
uncut stag
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So is this replacing the original NCGDMW if I were to install it?

slow juniper
uncut stag
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Ill give it a test run. I Like the things you did on Skill Evolution so Ill give it a spin and give any feedback on both!

civic rover
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ooh this is very interesting!

uncut stag
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So far replacing NCGDMW and installing this and Skill Evolution was successful and things didn't get lost in the switch over (Minus my deaths)

graceful herald
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I really thought I was not gonna like this mod when it was included on EV, but I really quite love it now. It makes the end game of your character so much more interesting and really helps from being too overpowered. A++

sick sand
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[17:32:23.379 I] 'Autosave' is saved in 503.817ms
[17:32:24.112 I] L@0x1[scripts/ncg/player.lua]: DEBUG: Detected max health modifier: 10
[17:32:24.112 I] L@0x1[scripts/ncg/player.lua]: DEBUG: Player's health changed from 191 to 168 (diff -23)
[17:32:25.540 I] L@0x1[scripts/ncg/player.lua]: DEBUG: Detected new base attributes modifiers: { luck=5, intelligence=1, endurance=20, personality=15 }
[17:32:25.540 I] L@0x1[scripts/ncg/player.lua]: DEBUG: You have reached level 27
[17:32:25.540 I] L@0x1[scripts/ncg/player.lua]: DEBUG: Your Agility has decreased to 63
[17:32:25.540 I] L@0x1[scripts/ncg/player.lua]: DEBUG: Your Speed has increased to 58
[17:32:25.540 I] L@0x1[scripts/ncg/player.lua]: DEBUG: Your Personality has decreased to 78
[17:32:27.804 I] L@0x1[scripts/ncg/player.lua]: DEBUG: Detected max health modifier: 10
[17:32:27.804 I] L@0x1[scripts/ncg/player.lua]: DEBUG: Player's health changed from 168 to 171 (diff 3)
[17:32:28.813 I] L@0x1[scripts/ncg/player.lua]: DEBUG: Detected max health modifier: 10
[17:32:28.813 I] L@0x1[scripts/ncg/player.lua]: DEBUG: Player's health changed from 171 to 195 (diff 24)
[17:33:16.936 I] L@0x1[scripts/ncg/player.lua]: DEBUG: Detected new base attributes modifiers: { endurance=37, personality=15, luck=5, strength=6, intelligence=7 }
[17:33:16.936 I] L@0x1[scripts/ncg/player.lua]: DEBUG: Your Agility has increased to 64
[17:33:16.936 I] L@0x1[scripts/ncg/player.lua]: DEBUG: Your Personality has increased to 79
[17:33:26.123 I] L@0x1[scripts/ncg/player.lua]: DEBUG: Detected max health modifier: 10

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so what's happening is that sun's dusk applies "drain skill" , NCG recalculates level and applies its stat modifiers accordingly, shouldn't NCG only take base, nonmodified, skill values into account?

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it ignores fortified skills correctly though

slow juniper
slow juniper
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Drained skills is temporary

obtuse lake
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Mym, out of curiosity, does NCG or Skill Evolution mess with the skill-gain rate for spell casting / enchanting?

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I wanted to add https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/57674?tab=description and https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/57659 to my list

Nexus Mods :: Morrowind
Oblivion Remaster Magic XP for OpenMW

Magic XP now scales using the same formula as oblivion remastered (if a spell costs more it grants more XP, incentivating the player to use powerful spells instead of spamming cheap spells)

Nexus Mods :: Morrowind
Enchant XP Rebalanced (OpenMW)

Using enchanted item now grants more XP, scaled based on the power of the enchantment. Reaching level 100 should be doable by simply using enchanted item daily. More powerful is the enchantment more X

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But I'm worried they'd conflict.

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Or if they already do that and I'm just fuckin' blind.

sick sand
slow juniper
obtuse lake
slow juniper
# obtuse lake Danke, got it.

Actually, all skills are scaled based on their level, to progressively slow down the player progression. If the mods you mention are well done, this level based scaling should be compatible

obtuse lake
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I'm just going to use the Enchanting one and it's compatibility section states: "As this mod is just a script that gets triggered when enchanting is used there should be no compatibility issue, unless some other mod would change how enchanting XP is handled."

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So with my admittedly incredibly limited understanding of modding, my guess is that the worst-case scenario there is it bypasses Skill Evolution, rather than directly conflicting with it.

slow juniper
high delta
slow juniper
indigo sundial
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#momw-general message Might be worth checking out to see if the interaction can be fixed. The item id is TR_m7_Springheel, found in TR_Mainland.esm

fleet lanternBOT
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d.s.z.e

Turns out the springheel boots break the new NCG script and sol's stuff pretty badly

Attachment(s)

image.png

Linked by @​ronik111 from #momw-general ·
high delta
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Is there a simple explanation for why my character sometimes seems to level backwards slightly when dealing with buffs or debuffs? Also, why my character always loses some stat points upon dying (not that it matters since I then reload a save)

slow juniper
indigo sundial
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Not possible in this particular case

slow juniper
slow juniper
indigo sundial
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Because I reviewed this particular TR quest and we didn't manage to come up with any other solution that made the boots work as we intended and didn't have other side effects

slow juniper
indigo sundial
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You would have to tell me 😄

slow juniper
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The player would get attribute bonuses during the acrobatics boost, but then the values could return to their right previous values.

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Or... I could add a system that detects abilities added after the chargen, and just ignore them

slow juniper
indigo sundial
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I don't know NCG well enough to have an opinion on that. I just wanted to report an incompatibility with a TR quest

For context, the boots give you a Fortify Acrobatics 1000pts ability when you jump to prevent any fall damage without having to use Slowfall. The ability is removed when you land

slow juniper
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Alright. I think a good approach would be to exclude any abilities that don't come from your race or birthsign, when computing attribute growth based on skill base values

high delta
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Looks like I'm a couple minor versions behind, so I'll update and report back if I still see the same behavior in the future!

slow juniper
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A solution to cappers would be to:

  • only cap the base value (for skills and attributes), excluding fortifications coming from abilities (which alter the base value, but I can get the fortification value)
  • make attribute growth based on the skill base value, after removing skill fortifications from abilities
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@indigo sundial @severe drum

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For example, with the Lady birthsign and a cap at 100, one could naturally reach 125 in endurance and personality. This is not vanilla behavior, but allows mods to toggle skill abilities with no impact on attribute values.

slow juniper
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Or I try to partially stick to vanilla behavior, and factor race and birthsign abilities into the cappers, but exclude other abilities

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Or... I only apply cappers on natural increases, allowing dynamic abilities and console commands to go beyond the caps

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But any hybrid approach may cause issues with decay and its decayed levels

severe drum
severe drum
slow juniper
slow juniper
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That plus no growth from abilities that fortify skills

halcyon coral
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If the intuition behind the mod is that practicing a skill should naturally work out related attributes, it would make sense that a permanent magic effect wouldn't actually affect your attributes, much like it doesn't for constant effect enchantments.

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Most quests that give skill levels actually give them as forced level ups, so gaining attributes for those would match both vanilla behavior and make sense intuitively, but there might be some gotchas with quests that give attributes as a reward, like the corprus main quest

slow juniper
slow juniper
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This includes manual changes from the console

halcyon coral
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Looking at you argonians

slow juniper
halcyon coral
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Yeah I'm more just talking about edge cases, like races that have gendered starting skill levels implemented as abilities starting with less attribute total than other races because of it. That said, a few modded race/birthsign configurations starting with a like 2-5 less total attributes is a lot less impactful than an optimized build starting with up to 20 extra, so it's probably safe to just simplify things and ignore all abilities

slow juniper
indigo sundial
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You need to jump

slow juniper
slow juniper
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NCG 1.2 released!

  • Attributes and the player level are no longer grown by skill fortifications from abilities
  • Fixed temporary attribute growth caused by togglable skill abilities
  • Allow uncapped attribute values (when the cap is 0, the new default)
  • Attribute cappers now only block the natural growth: Base modifiers and external changes (from quests, mods, or the console) are applied after the cap
  • Fixed external attribute gains lost on attribute increase
  • Fixed broken attribute values after temporary buffs on base values from other mods, when the value went above the cap
  • Fixed attribute progress bar still progressing when the cap is reached
  • New setting to disable player level, attribute, and health automatic updates (for tests)
  • Added Stats Window Extender mod esp file as a dependency of NCG's omwaddon file
ebon tulip
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Hi, I'm stuck at lvl1 for some reason, after level 1 filled up, it goes to 0/10, but I'm still at lvl1... the openmw log didn't say anything, any idea?

slow juniper
ebon tulip
slow juniper
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You can try the profile reset procedure as described in the doc

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Also, do you use a CREL mod?

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Also, you should update NCG and Skill Evolution to their last version

ebon tulip
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So idk how much use the save file will be for you

slow juniper
ebon tulip
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Yeah I know, okay thanks I’ll try that

slow juniper
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NCG v1.3 released!

  • Handle uncapped attributes changed by the Bitter Cup
  • Fixed an error when NCG was loaded before Stats Window Extender
rocky bison
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Hi mym! Hope you had a nice new year.

Here I am with questions again 😅 Well.. this is more curiousity that might turn into discussion.

What is the motivation behind the attribute chart?

STR being at 35, the median at 28, END/PER lowered to 21?

I get that it is perfectly correlating to the ratio of governed skills per attribute in vanilla. But vanilla allows you to manipulate the amount of attribute gains per level. Obviously.. but practically you can gain 5 endurance/personality per level early on if you want to. With NCG I think you're leveling up faster than you are gaining endurance even if you minmax it with Heavy Armour/Spear.

It makes sense if you only look at it from the perspective of total amount of possible attributes that can be gained. But after playing a new character with NCG with:

  • no chargen values (fully skill derived)
  • slow growth (0.5)
  • State based HP: No
  • Base/level HP: Full
  • Per level: 2%
  • 50% growth from Misc Skills
    (a pretty harsh setup, but not the worst)

... with that I am having a really tough time early on to get a respectable HP pool. I started off with a preset class, Spellsword. So my only Major/Minor Endurance skills are Medium Armor & Blunt Weapons. Not the best conditions to scale HP for sure. (Like... I am Level 23 and still haven't passed 100 HP... I just have 99 🥹 . It works fine against physical damage but I melt so fast vs elemental spells if I am not prepared with resist/shield)

But I now realize this is partly also the ratio of the attribute as set by NCG.

On the flipside. I am getting a lot of "free" STR.

Is there some background story behind why you arrived at these values? From the earlier NCGDM mod?

slow juniper
slow juniper
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That started around the post I forwarded

slow juniper
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If you don't agree on the attribute impact distribution, you can manually edit the table, and you'll get the effect when loading your game

slow juniper
surreal bane
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Hey @slow juniper, I'm curious: I'm putting together a personal modlist, basically intended as vanilla with some rebalancing. I'm interested in your Skill Evolution and Natural Character Growth mods. Is the idea that they more or less maintain vanilla balancing, just at something of a slower rate? (That's usually been my issue with Morrowind, that progression gets too fast and the balancing isn't good enough to sustain it.)

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As an aside, I realize now that I'm using basically all of your mods lol. Thanks for all the hard work. HBFS is awesome

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Also, relatedly, are these mods viable to uninstall mid-playthrough? I would think not...

slow juniper
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The default settings are clearly slower than vanilla progress rate

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NCG provides a slower attribute growth, and you don't get to decide which ones are increased: It's only based on skills

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SE provides many options to control the skill growth. Defaults provide a growth close to vanilla during early game, and a strong reduction in later game

surreal bane
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Wonderful, thank you. That sounds like exactly what I'm looking for. I'm uncertain about NCG for my setup since I do kind of like the periodic level-ups, but it seems like they'd work together rather well, and like it'd smooth over a lot of the weirdness with vanilla leveling.

rocky bison
slow juniper
surreal bane
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I think even outside the little blurbs, the affirmation of progress feels like something, even if it's all gradual with NCG. It kind of marks your progression, y'know?

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And awesome, so it's not all that commital anyway. I was worried I'd have to commit before character creation.

slow juniper
surreal bane
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Yeah, which definitely helps. But it can feel like a bigger jump when I see myself having leveled up, or gotten the equivalent points to a level in the mod's case

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Anyway, I definitely think reintegrating the level up messages would be a great addition

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Another question: is the vanilla-style scaling we've been talking about assuming maximized level ups, or more organic progression?

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I for one have never bothered with maximizing level ups, but a lot of people understandably feel discontented with less than a +5

rocky bison
# surreal bane Another question: is the vanilla-style scaling we've been talking about assuming...

The default NCG settings are a lot more organic with attribute growth distributed over several attributes. The most minmaxed vanilla would +5 three non-luck attributes every single level and the non-three attributes would remain at the same level. I did a comparison just now and with vanilla minmax you can reach 100 in a stat a lot earlier (lower level) but you have to put down tedious work by targeting specific skills over and over. NCG just lets you play the game instead of following a spreadsheet.

rocky bison
# slow juniper Your per level HP at 2% can be increased to get more HP

Just finished reading the NCGDM discussion of 22nd March -> 24th March 😅

The 35-28-21 distribution makes more sense now.

I am kind of undecided on the Major/Minor/Misc growth contribution. I got really curious how it would feel if I matched the vanilla skill growth of 1.25/1.00/0.75 for Major/Minor/Misc skills. So I changed NCG from 100/100/50 to 125/100/75. But I think I get too many attributes with this for stuff like STR/AGI that makes combat a bit too "binary". It didn't really balance my character the way I was hoping (more HP).

I generally lean toward playing on the harder difficulty settings. So I would prefer to stay at 2% - Low HP per level. But... I think I just have to "suck it up" and raise the HP to 4% and leave attribute growth alone.

I'm experimenting with raising the difficulty slider to bring physical damage closer to the spells. Some spells are just completely nuts with the amount of raw damage they deal compared to physical attacks from high level Daedra even. My first time fighting a Bull Netch with just ~50 HP cost me 3-5 quicksave reloads yagrwut I think one of the rebalance mods I use has buffed a lot of spells, or NCG in combo with that also nerf the base HP enough.

surreal bane
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I played with an Oblivion mod that did that, for example, and while it helped a lot with Oblivion's awful scaling, I found myself way too powerful way too fast because of repeated maximal leveling. (Not to say that's happening here—hence my question).

rocky bison
# surreal bane I see. One way or another I don't intend in min-maxing leveling—it's such a nigh...

NCG does a lot of interesting things that change the way you can design/plan a character build. The race/birthsign, specialization, favored attributes and chosen major/minor skills are more meaningful with NCG. I think the minmaxing is instead moved to this part of the game when you use this mod. So you'd instead minmax by really planning a build from the start.

The other settings are instead modifying how much HP you can have, and how much it scales as you level, and how quickly your attributes can grow / your total attributes possible. Its kinda complex, but if you really just read at what each setting does you can just adjust these "on-the-fly". All the settings can be changed back and forth and the script will retroactively adjust it. mym has done a great piece of work with this mod 🙂

slow juniper
slow juniper
rocky bison
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I had to "nerd out" and make a chart of how much HP each skill contributes with NCG. So here it is. (Willpower = 1 point, Strength = 2 points, Endurance = 4 points)

image.png
slow juniper
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HBFS is supposed to be compatible with many mods, and can be installed and removed midgame

slow juniper
torn orchid
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Hi, I noticed the Tamriel Rebuilt recommended mod page still links to this page: https://modding-openmw.gitlab.io/ncgdmw-lua/ you might want to add the same note on the gitlab page as on Nexus about moving to the new two mods. Or ask the TR team if they can update the link.
https://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/recommended-mods#gameplay

NCGDMW Lua Edition
NCGDMW Lua Edition

A 'Natural Grow' leveling mod where your attributes and level grow automatically as your skills increase, and your skills will also decay over time (Optional).

slow juniper
civic rover
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hi im getting this repeatedly in the log, do you know what it means?
[23:06:35.954 E] L@0x1[scripts/ncg/player.lua] onUpdate failed. Lua error: [string "scripts/ncg/player.lua"]:334: attempt to index field 'bitterCup' (a nil value)
[23:06:35.954 E] stack traceback:
[23:06:35.954 E] [string "scripts/ncg/player.lua"]:334: in function <[string "scripts/ncg/player.lua"]:328>
[23:06:35.954 E] [C]: in ?

slow juniper
surreal bane
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Hey @slow juniper, I'm trying to use the "setlevel" command with NCG, but I'm noticing that it doesn't appear to work--it's just automatically set right back to 4 after applying the command, even if I save and restart. Any suggestions for how to work around this?

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I'm doing this because I used the console to set my dark elf as if they were an altmer, but the stat changes registered as level-ups, so I wanted to reset that

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Another option I'm thinking of is simply uninstalling NCG just for this process, and then enabling afterwards.

slow juniper
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You can try the reset profile procedure

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described in the doc

surreal bane
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Just tried it. Unfortunately it still registers the changes I made as level-ups

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still seems to be factoring in the "decay" values relative to my defaults

slow juniper
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ah

slow juniper
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BTW do you use a CREL mod?

surreal bane
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CREL?

slow juniper
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alternative start mods

surreal bane
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Oh, no. Why do you ask?

surreal bane
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So, if NCG starts with my values already set, it should work

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Which is a silly workaround but I'm being a silly nerd about this anyway

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Damn, nope, NCG seems to retroactively recognize those changes. I'm guessing it bases its leveling on the player's race somehow?

slow juniper
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yes, it computes the start skill values using the race and class

surreal bane
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Mm, I see

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And presumably no matter what I do, if I were to change my race or something, it would automatically re-calculate based on that, yes?

slow juniper
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exactly

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that's the intent

surreal bane
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Damn, so in my very niche case, there's probably no tricking it. I suppose that does mean the mod is rather robust.

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But that also means if I play as a Dunmer it will always recognize me as such and adapt accordingly

slow juniper
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I don't see any simple solution

surreal bane
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I assume simply disabling player stat updates and reenabling after changes are applied wouldn't work? Since it'd recalculate anyway once reenabled

slow juniper
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maybe you could create a small plugin that alters your race stats

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then the reset procedure would work

surreal bane
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Any info on how to do that? I've never touched that before

slow juniper
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ah!

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openmw-cs:

  • create new addon
  • game file -> Morrowind.esm
  • tick Tribunal.esm and Bloodmoon.esm
  • type a mod name, then "create"
  • menu characters -> races
  • right mouse button on the race you want to change -> edit record
  • section "skill bonus" -> alter the bonuses as you wish
  • save
    openmw-launcher:
  • tick your mod
  • place it at the end
surreal bane
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Interesting, hang on, let me parse this

surreal bane
slow juniper
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ah!

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all of them 🙂

surreal bane
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Gotcha. It would get me what I want here, but would also make the Dunmer function weirdly...

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ah man, idk

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Regardless, thanks for the thorough feedback, I appreciate it

slow juniper
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wait

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another idea

slow juniper
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but first you have to restore your skills as before

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no need to change the current values anymore with that approach

surreal bane
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Ah, so this is essentially telling NCG where to start, meaning it won't get confused when I change them?

slow juniper
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also, if you update NCG in the future, it may reset these values

slow juniper
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but yes

surreal bane
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Well, again, the intent is to mimic another race. So if I set the stats that would be different to the baseline for the race I'm mimicking like you described, then it should work

slow juniper
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yes

surreal bane
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So I should set the skill value in this command (I.NCG.getState().skills.start.acrobatics = 10) as the baseline for what my specific race/class combo would if I were of the race I'm mimicking

slow juniper
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valid skill IDs are: axe, spear, athletics, enchant, destruction, alteration, illusion, conjuration, mysticism, restoration, alchemy, unarmored, sneak, acrobatics, lightarmor, shortblade, marksman, mercantile, speechcraft, handtohand, security, block, armorer, mediumarmor, heavyarmor, bluntweapon, longblade

slow juniper
surreal bane
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Awesome, I think I get the idea. Tell them what I'd have at chargen with my class/race were I the race I'm emulating, then apply changes, and that should fix the other issues since it won't register big changes or anything

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wonderful, let me give this a go. I'll let you know how it goes

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thanks again

surreal bane
surreal bane
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For clarity, what I did was:

  • Reload to before I applied any stat changes.
  • Use I.NCG.getState().skills.start.skill = value to adjust the baseline values for all skills that should be different.
  • Exit console; let NCG apply its changes.
  • Disabled skill decay temporarily to avoid any issues from next step.
  • Set all skills that need to be changed to their appropriate values with setskill.
  • Now my skills are identical to an Altmer's of my build, and I'm still level 1, but my attributes aren't correct for some reason. So, I use the same command to manually set my attributes to what they should be.
  • Everything appears to be fine, and any possible imperfections are probably nebulous. Screenshot shows a Dunmer with Altmer stats.

I'm honestly surprised we (you, more so) may have figured this out. Thanks so much for the help. Do you see any potential issues here, or does it check out?

image.png
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I do have some stray progress in attribute progression, but I did some lockpicking and obviously movement, so I suspect that's all just natural

slow juniper
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For attributes, you can enable the value details in NCG settings to check how they are computed

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For skills, you can check the modifier value

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All in tooltips

surreal bane
slow juniper
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But if you're satisfied with the actual values, and they persist on game load, then it should be good

surreal bane
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Cool. So the chargen value in the attribute tooltip being as a Dunmer's, not my cobbled-together altmer, shouldn't affect leveling/gameplay?

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I am indeed happy with the values, so if so, I think I'm set.

slow juniper
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** NCG 1.3.2** released!

  • Add modifier value to attribute tooltips
compact pagoda
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Should have been part of Vanilla

fringe fossil
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Someone made a mod for restoring vanilla popups with flavor text on level ups datchim

slow juniper
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Nice. But it's just a message box. No OG graphics

compact pagoda
surreal bane
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Hey @slow juniper, does NCG work with mods that change chargen stats such as Races Respected and the like? (I know you say it works with stuff like Chargen Revamped, but not sure if that refers to that mod series only or greater chargen-changing mods)

fringe fossil
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yeah, it 100% works

surreal bane
# fringe fossil yeah, it 100% works

Awesome, thank you. If you don't mind, follow-up question: on Modding-OpenMW, on Races Respected's page, it says "MOMW Patches includes the OpenMW-Lua version of the MWSE addon." What exactly am I meant to do with that? Is it a replacer for the .esp or something to be used in addition?

fringe fossil
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no clue

surreal bane
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Gotcha. It's noted as being "partially working," so I'm hesitant to just use it, but the instructions are unclear

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thanks regardless

slow juniper
surreal bane
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So I should install the MOMW patch? And do I need to disable the MWSE folder for races respected?

slow juniper
surreal bane
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So I just need the .esp from races respected

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cool, it appears to have worked. Triggers right when i pick up papers in census office

slow juniper
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And the MOMW patch

surreal bane
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right, gotcha

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Thanks for the help

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I'm guessing in general chargen mods that alter stats are mostly compatible? since NCG is additive, not altering the same things, yeah?

slow juniper
surreal bane
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Oh man, so do you need to make patches for each mod

slow juniper
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NCG has features to restore the player stats, when something wrong happens, or for specific upgrades, but when doing so, the player will lose the chargen changes

surreal bane
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Ah, I see. So without you explicitly patching, that can cause it to break

slow juniper
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Yeah

surreal bane
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Well, kudos, that's a lot of work

slow juniper
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When NCG detects such chargen mods, it waits for the chargen mod to set all stats, save them as starting values, and then never override them

surreal bane
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So the main breakage doesn't come with chargen itself, but with the profile reset and such you mentioned before

slow juniper
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Yeah

surreal bane
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Cool. Again, I'm impressed by how robust your mods are. Seems very resilient to breaking

slow juniper
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Without check, the starting skill values will produce a wrong player level for example

slow juniper
surreal bane
#

Since the changes were registered as skill increases rather than a new baseline

#

which is no fault of your own of course, I'm kinda breaking the game; and you provided a solution anyhow

surreal bane
#

Being able to just add in things on top of something as comprehensive as your mods is remarkable

#

It's not without some maintenance, but you know what i mean

slow juniper
#

NCG 1.3.3 released!

  • Show separately positive and negative modifiers in attribute tooltips
  • Fixed caps and some detailed value stats only updated on game load in attribute tooltips
  • Added more options for the base HP factor setting
slow juniper
#

NCG 1.3.4 released!

  • Fixed the mod not working when Stats Window Extender is loaded after NCG
  • Fixed rare error on new game when the engine resurrect old setting values
sour lance
#

Why in this mod there are no skills uncapper, just attrib uncapper only?

#

Ok i found that you make separate mod for leveling and attributes grow system and separate for skill grow system

#

For previous experience i need both of them

slow juniper
fringe fossil
#

Remind me, is there an option for equipment repairing to update time every successful repair or no?

#

It starts being slightly annoying :(

compact pagoda
#

btw you can turn off time cost for Repair in the settings of Skill Evolution

fringe fossil
#

But I don't want to!

fringe fossil
compact pagoda
#

I have everything unpaused except dialogue in Pause Control

#

Repair tab is still paused

fringe fossil
#

that's a shame

compact pagoda
#

Same as Enchanting

#

Alchemy is unpaused, that works

slow juniper
#

NCG 1.4 released!

  • Added base modifier stats in attribute tooltips
  • Fixed sometimes wrong positive and negative attribute modifier values in tooltips, when the modifier had a decimal value
fringe fossil
#

Someone mentioned to me that NCG/SE requires patching to work properly with race rebalances. Is this true?

slow juniper
fringe fossil
#

🤝

slow juniper
#

NCG 1.5 released!

  • Track specific base health changes to improve compatibility with mods which add or remove health points
  • Show extra base modifiers on attributes (e.g. +2 strength from a naked Nord) and health (changes from mods) in the character stats window tooltips
  • Fixed extra attribute base modifiers lost on NCG mid-game updates
fringe fossil
#

So there's been reports that Character Traits Framework and Daggerfall Character Creation in conjunction with NCG allow you to effectively start at level higher than 1 depending on your trait/skill picks

While I can't say anything about DCC, CTF most of the time changes base skill and attribute values without triggering skill-up handlers

Is this compatibility issue supposed to be somehow handled on our side or NCG's?

#

Here's an example of a freshly made character

image.png
#

@slow juniper 😶‍🌫️

slow juniper
#

Changes on base attribute values are detected as external changes, they are preserved and shown in attribute tooltips

fringe fossil
#

I would think CTF would add ability spells instead
While MTR's traits (which are 228 traits out of 295 iirc) use abilities, everything else doesn't. It felt like a lot of work for no real reason at the time :d

#

Otherwise, NCG cannot guess what to do with such changes, and we need an interface to inform NCG.
Is there an interface for that or you'd need to add it?

#

Plus how will it affect negative base value changes? Those can't be done using abilities. They'd need to be passed to NCG interface either way?

slow juniper
#

It may be like for attributes, external modifications that can be altered by an interface, and shown in skill tooltips

fringe fossil
#

Ok

soft lantern
#

It seems UI warnings have come for you too.

#

Seems like just needs line 171 (in latest nexus version) removed in NCG/ui/stats.lua

forest robin
#

NCG and Devilish's Shrink Spell seem to conflict. I just cast their spell and my NCG dropped my character to the ground. Something about the speed being over 600.

slow juniper
slow juniper
fringe fossil
#

Yeah, from compatibility standpoint it would be the best option 🧐

slow juniper
#

When CREL, traits and such other mods alter skills after the official chargen, with my new approach it will make attributes grow (or ungrow) as any other change post-chargen, like natural skill increase, or manual console changes

#

I think I'll continue to exclude base skill modifiers coming from ability spells (races, birthsigns, mods) from attribute growth

slow juniper
# fringe fossil Yeah, from compatibility standpoint it would be the best option 🧐

Regarding starter spells, I don't know how to handle them.
Currently, NCG recompute these spells after attributes are grown (willpower specifically), but with the new approach, I don't know when I should compute them.
Flow:

  • chargen finished -> the engine computes the starter spells
  • NCG init finished -> NCG recomputes the starter spells
  • other mods altering attribute and stats -> we should compute starter spells accordingly, but I don't know when it happens
#

when do Character Traits Framework and Daggerfall Character Creation mods alter the base stats?

#

I could wait like a real time minute after the end of the chargen, then recompute the starter spells

#

or consider any attr/skill change before the first natural skill raise as a profile change, and recompute those spells accordingly

soft lantern
#

maybe a simulation minute?

#

Cause during those both game would be paused

slow juniper
#

Maybe we need some compatibility code, like an event when the character creation is over, so that NCG knows what attribute/skills are considered as chargen.

slow juniper
soft lantern
#

Or an event from CharTraits/DaggerfallCC saying "secondary chargen finished"

#

yeah

slow juniper
#

CREL mods use mwscripts IIRC, so I'll need another approach

#

actually, I already have one

slow juniper
fringe fossil
slow juniper
fringe fossil
fierce monolith
#

currently using the newest openmw total overhaul list with NCG + SE and I cant see factions, reputation and bounty in the character menu. any fix?

soft lantern
#

got into settings->scripts->Stats Window Extender and see if anything there helps

fierce monolith
#

thank you! it was on the unscrollable left pane now

soft lantern
#

The left panel is sometimes unscrollable due to ui scaling

#

maybe worth reporting to #1432457734619664495 , if you can reproduce

gentle forum
#

what about something like this:

- NCG exposes an interface like `I.NCGDMW`
- DaggerfallCC/chargen mod detects it is entering a new-game.
- DaggerfallCC/chargen mod tells NCG: “hold off, I am going to change chargen stats.”
- NCG marks DaggerfallCC/chargen mod as a pending chargen modifier.
- Vanilla chargen completes.
- DaggerfallCC/chargen mod opens its UI and applies its stat/skill changes.
- After the stat write is actually complete, DaggerfallCC/chargen mod tells NCG: “I’m done.”
- NCG removes DaggerfallCC/chargen mod from the pending list.
- When no pending chargen mods remain in the list, NCG runs normally.```
#

and NCG will just acts as if stats after chargen mods are the base stats so the player remains level 1.

slow juniper
# gentle forum what about something like this: ```- NCG loads. - NCG exposes an interface like...

Yes something like that.
Or more generic:

  • we set a convention, like 2 specific event names to be used by any mod that mod the profile stats
  • one event to register as a chargen modifier, one to tell when the mod is done
  • such events could pass the mod ID to allow a proper tracking
  • NCG (or any other mod) could get 2 registration events from 2 different mods, and then wait for both of them to finish
  • the registration event could be sent from the onActive player handler to be sure all mods are loaded and prevent load order issues
#

Great, so which event names?

#
  • onChargenModRegistration({modId=XXX})
  • onChargenModFinished({modId=XXX})
    ?
#

I suggest to pass a table in case we want to add parameters in the future

fringe fossil
#

makes sense

slow juniper
#

@gentle forum are you ok with the names?

fringe fossil
gentle forum
slow juniper
#

The idea is to define the base profile

fringe fossil
#

Okay

slow juniper
# fringe fossil Okay

NCG needs to know when the base profile is set to know how to make attributes growth, and to recompute the starter spells

#

if traits are like ability spells, then you should not use the new approach we're talking about here

fringe fossil
#

I mean that's not a deal breaker

#

:d

slow juniper
#

in NCG you can configure how much of the chargen attribute values are grown by chargen skills.
With traits, I have the feeling that they should be excluded from such chargen computations

#

for example, if you set 50% to that setting, and you start with Strength at 50, then NCG will reduce Strength to 25 and use the related skill impacts to make it grow

#

if a trait adds +20 strength, and the skills make Strength growth by 20 points:

  • if NCG waits for that trait, then we'll have (50+20)*50% = 35, then we add 20 = 55
  • if NCG doesn't wait traits, then we'll have 50*50% = 25, then we add 20 = 45
#

as traits can be earned later in the playthrough, I think they should be excluded from the chargen stat computations

#

regarding the Daggerfall mod, are stats only modified once at chargen?

fringe fossil
#

Usually you'd pick them right after chargen

slow juniper
fringe fossil
#

Yep

gentle forum
#

mine is easier since it does not support mid-playthrough saves, only new characters

slow juniper
fringe fossil
#

I can just add a note about installing it mid-playthrough and be done with it todd

slow juniper
gentle forum
slow juniper
#

can a player install both traits and daggerfall?

fringe fossil
#

Yes

gentle forum
#

the advantages and disadvantages act as spell buffs/debuffs

fringe fossil
#

They would have overlapping UI, but ultimately they will work

gentle forum
#

the skill/stat allocation act as base values

slow juniper
# fringe fossil Yes

then we may have an issue: NCG will wait for Daggerfall, but may also get traits in the mean time

slow juniper
fringe fossil
gentle forum
slow juniper
#

but as traits are supposed to be added at chargen, I think it's the expected behavior

gentle forum
#

AFAIK doesnt NCG play nice with buffs already?

#

so that player spells dont mess with levels

slow juniper
#

buff are excluded from the player level progression and attribute growth, even ability spells are excluded

#

this was a recent change to prevent issues with recent mods toggling ability spells

gentle forum
#

perfect

slow juniper
#

ok, so let's do it

gentle forum
#

doesn't proceed until the list is empty

#

so even if they have daggerfallCC and the trait mod, it doesn't proceed until both have sent the event and the pending list is nil

slow juniper
#

yeah, something like that

#

that's the intent

#

I also support some CREL mod variants, using the special cells they add. I'll have to mix both approaches

gentle forum
#

so any mod can just read the documentation and add in functionality

slow juniper
#

yeah

gentle forum
slow juniper
#

and hopefully other leveling mods could adopt such an approach

gentle forum
#

it makes sense ngl

#

there are a lot of char/chargen mods now

#

and a handful of leveling mods

soft lantern
#

datchim love me some compatibility

gentle forum
#

they dont typically play nice together

slow juniper
#

it's a shame I cannot pin posts here

slow juniper
#

To put it "simply", the next version will:

  • save the initial attribute and skill values
    • after the chargen or mid-game install
    • and after chargen mod changes if any
    • excluding ability modifiers
  • internally compute the player level progression
    • only considering natural skill increases from the saved initial values
    • excluding ability modifiers
    • excluding other changes like console commands or any other base value changes from mods

For mid-game installs, the initial stat values will be the current ones: NCG won't cut by half the attributes to make them grow from half of the skill values, as it's done by default. The related setting will be automatically set to Full initial values.

I think it may be confusing to scramble the attributes you have already grown by yourself.

However the player will be able to change the portion of initial attribute growth from the settings if they want to, but it will be based on the values they had when installing NCG.

NCG will still offer an interface command to compute the expected initial stat values based on the race/class/birthsign and set the growths accordingly. This is in case of broken profiles or mid-game installs where the player prefers to get full NCG attribute growths. However any changes from chargen mods, quest rewards, mod alterations... will be lost.

lofty edge
#

Will this version make NCG more or less compatible with other mods? It reads as though it may be less compatible?

slow juniper
#

the compatibility with other mod kinds should be preserved

compact pagoda
#

Imagine all the effort if it resulted in less compatibility trollvehk

lofty edge
#

Yeah, in retrospect my comment was absurd given the dedication and collaboration in this community! Not to mention talented moders like the two of you! Had not had my coffee yet when I posed the question

#

Amazing work and great to read as well!

slow juniper
#

@fringe fossil @gentle forum I have a version ready to be tested with the new events

#

should I upload it here or could you upload a version of your mod sending these events?

fringe fossil
#

if it's just 2 events, I could send you modified Traits Framewrok

#

how are the called?

#

@slow juniper

slow juniper
fringe fossil
#

👌

slow juniper
#

please send the registration one from the onActive player handler

#

or after

fringe fossil
#

Like this? Without a mod name in the event name?

image.png
slow juniper
#

maybe I should just ignore such events once the player profile is set

slow juniper
#

with just the mod you provided, nothing happens, no error, and NCG wait for a "finished" event that never comes

#

I think you should send the finished event if no traits are loaded

#

except from that, it seems to be working well 🙂

fringe fossil
#

But I'm not sure. Maybe it really does need to have at least one trait for it 🧐

fringe fossil
slow juniper
#

Or don't send the registration event

fringe fossil
#

yeah, it would be more reliable this way :d

slow juniper
#

If CTF is installed after NCG, attribute changes will be tracked as extra changes, and skill changes won't affect the player level anymore

#

If both mods are initialized at the same time, attribute changes will just be considered as part of the initial stats

gentle forum
slow juniper
#

@gentle forum @fringe fossil I'm not sure about the best way to apply your changes on attributes.
I mean the changes on the base values, not the abilities.

Currently I'm waiting for chargen mod changes to be applied on the chargen attributes, before altering the values (e.g. 50% preserved, 50% grown by skills).

However, a -10 agility shown in the class description won't be exactly preserved that way (base value change), unlike a +10 agility buff when it's an ability.

Maybe NCG should first scramble the attributes and then chargen mods could alter the resulting values?

fringe fossil
#

I think the best way would be to:

  1. On chargen mod registration save "base chargen" and "current" attribute and skill values
  2. Wait for mods to change the stats
  3. After they all finish doing their stuff apply the stat delta to "base chargen" values
#

This way they would technically edit the true base stat values as if they were like this from the start

#

If the current architecture allows this, ofc

slow juniper
slow juniper
slow juniper
#

Or maybe the attributes are already set when the class review window is displayed and I can just save them then. I'll have to check that

slow juniper
#

Saving attributes when the class review window closes works well!

slow juniper
compact pagoda
#

14 Willpower datchim

slow juniper
slow juniper
#

I may need a hand to track existing custom skills from the Skill Framework mod and set the impacted attributes.
In NCG every skill impacts one or more attributes, up to a total of 7 points.
I'd need skill IDs and impacts 🙂
Here are the current impacts

image.png
barren arrow
#

With all the new skills poping left and right recently, I've been wondering how/if they impacted attribute growth and level gains with NGC

fringe fossil
#

I think it would depend mostly on skill gain settings

#

Like default Swimming xp gain is crazy

slow juniper
#

as they can only be misc skills for now, we'll have many misc skills contributing to attributes

fringe fossil
#

also true

slow juniper
#

maybe the impact of misc skills should be reduced

#

also, I should support the skill framework in Skill Evolution to scale the progression on the skill level

slow juniper
barren arrow
#

smart

#

So for now, leveling those extra skills doesn't impact anything other than proficiency in said skill? Doesn't increase attribute nor character level?

soft lantern
slow juniper
soft lantern
#

But same impact as "good amount" vanilla skills with NCG have on their main attribute

barren arrow
#

same weight per skill makes sense. So 7 seems coherent with the rest of the mod.

#

it's just that the news skills only impact one attribute instead of several

slow juniper
soft lantern
#

Fair

compact pagoda
#

there are more and more custom skills and some of them are very niche. We will probably get even more in the future as new mods are released. Would be good to get a separate mod setting for custom skills in NCG if they start contributing to attribute growth since things may quickly get out of hand. Currently there are 3 skill-related mod settings for attribute impact: major, minor and misc. I think that there should be a fourth one for custom skills so it's possible to control their impact on attribute growth in a general way. This is in addition to any attribute impacts that are set for each skill. The point is that if somebody sets that general setting to 0, they would get the current behaviour (no impact) and if they use 10% or 20% or sth, it will be lower than misc Vanilla skills by default (50%).

slow juniper
#

Hmm we may get weird growth steps when a misc skill gets into the top 5

jagged sand
#

I agree with cybvep. A lot of custom skills are kind of giving levels for things you’d be doing anyway (swimming, using custom spells, etc). Others completely replace a thing you’d be doing (staves taking away from blunt). Getting lots of credit for the already-doing ones is going to start giving the player a lot more power a lot faster, and it won’t really feel like it was earned.

daring night
#

Stargazer is cool

#

Like the astrology puzzles in Dragon Age Inquisition

compact pagoda
jagged sand
compact pagoda
#

constant recalcs wouldn't be fun

#

it may be a better idea to make only misc skills above X (configurable value) count for attribute growth at all, so a random skill increase from 5 to 6 wouldn't matter, but misc skills at lvl 40, 50 etc. would count

jagged sand
#

I think it’s just genuinely hard to figure out an approach that will work as a broad rule, since newly added skills cover such a broad range. In my example, not getting attributes from staves feels really bad because it’s basically replacing blunt, so using staves will end up handicapping your growth. But getting attributes from swimming and fishing would just make “swim in Seydna Neen for 20 minutes” an overpowered way to start your playthrough.

compact pagoda
#

since mym plans to set custom attribute impact tables for these skills (instead of just default X for governing attribute which he intends to implement as well), it's possible to just give low impact values to the ones which shouldn't contribute much. In other words, they wouldn't have total 7 impact but 2 or 3, for example.

#

but I still think that there should be the 4th global skill-to-attribute impact option for custom skills, just so it's possible to keep current behaviour (no impact) by setting 0 or use some very low value (10-20%) if somebody has a bunch of skill mods installed.

barren arrow
#

I agree that there so much diversity in skills created by mods that a general rule might be hard to balance. I know nothing about modding so I have no idea if/how it works, but would it be possible instead to exclude new skills from interfering by default, but give a simple way for modders to hook with NGC and specify relevant attribute(s) if they want their skill to impact character growth?

jagged sand
#

Yeah, giving the player (and as a result, modpack authors too) a way to scale the impact of specifically custom skills gives a good way to overcome these things on an individual level.

compact pagoda
#

while e.g. Staves custom skill would have full attribute impact (7) because it's basically a replacement for Blunt Weapons when you are using staves

slow juniper
compact pagoda
#

does somebody have a list of all the custom skill mods? Maybe someone is using ALL of them? 😄

#

I don't think that Ralts updated this list since he didn't include his own Fishing one. None of @zenith karma 's skills are there, either.

image.png
fringe fossil
soft lantern
#

cause like half the mods are missing

compact pagoda
fringe fossil
compact pagoda
#

changelogs also seem weird

#

but dunno

compact pagoda
soft lantern
#

Yup. Definitely nexus screwed up somewhere

slow juniper
# compact pagoda there are more and more custom skills and some of them are very niche. We will p...

The issue with misc skills can be seen another way: major and minor skills can only be increased by 10 points per player level, while there is no limit for misc skills.

What about computing an attribute growth factor from misc skills based on miscSkillIncreases/playerLevel? A default behavior could be a normal attribute growth from misc skills as long as this ratio is below 10, and then a reduced factor above 10.

Maybe proportional: With a ratio of 20, growth from misc skills would be reduced by 50%. At 40 it would be 25%.

This could be retroactive.

compact pagoda
slow juniper
#

It's the opposite: I add level into attribute growth

compact pagoda
#

then I'm not sure I understand, unfortunately yagrwut

jagged sand
#

Would that cause the same issue as the "top 5" thing? Level a bunch of strength misc skills, and then int ones. Leveling the int ones then lowers the growth modifier, lowering the effect the str skills gave. If it's "only on skills after 10", then we're back to vanilla mechanics where you have to micromanage which skills you work on between level ups

slow juniper
forest robin
#

I wonder if maybe it could be solved by tweaking values, not running the numbers here, but rather serving as illustration: If a char gets 1.0 value from major skills, 7.5 from secondary and 0.5 from tertiary, couldn't that be evened out by tweaking those numbers? 0.8 0.4 and 0.1 or something?

slow juniper
slow juniper
forest robin
#

I can tweak it in my set up, too.

compact pagoda
gentle forum
#

Sorry I’ve been sort of distracted with critical bug chasing in my Noita mod, did we decide on a solution for CharGen mods? Brain is fuzzy so sorry if you already pushed it and I missed it

slow juniper
gentle forum
#

got it, thanks!

barren arrow
# slow juniper I get your intent, but it doesn't feel right to penalize the new custom skills c...

I don't think it's "penalizing" them. It's just letting their mod author deciding how to balance them (or not) in the character progression. It would make sense to let them decide how much (if at all) their skill should impact it : they are the ones who designed the skill after all.

It would give flexibility to the system, and it would account for the very wide diversity that can result from this new freedom of mod creation, on a skill to skill (mod to mod) basis.
The original skills have all been created together, as a whole, but new additions can have very different designs after all (not saying they all will, but they can is my point, why I think it's better to let their author decide how to integrate them - or not - into character progression).

slow juniper
barren arrow
#

I see. I guess it enters territorry that I'm too mathematically challenged to form an opinion on then. I play with the "all skills have the same weight" option after all 😅

slow juniper
#

I think that a decay mechanic should handle it naturally: The player won't be able to regularly practice them all

barren arrow
#

Indeed (I also play with decay off ahah 😅 )

slow juniper
#

(me too 😅)

#

@compact pagoda I'm not against a separate custom skill impact setting, but I would set it to 100% be default, because any skill should contribute to attributes by default, and if players have balance issues, then they can tweak the settings

#

That and sensible built-in impacts for as many existing custom skills as possible

barren arrow
#

I like the option to separate custom skill setting

compact pagoda
#

Not concerned with default at all here. Default for Misc is 50%, though, not 100%.

slow juniper
#

Ah yes

#

50% then

#

I'm concerned with defaults because nowadays players install hundreds of mods and they start to have many settings.

compact pagoda
#

Yeah, but as long as it's tweakable in-game, the player choice is there. Some people won't ever touch this, but this can be said about every setting.

#

Also, before Max left us again, he made a prophecy

#

😅

slow juniper
#

Yeah. I also announced to you the upcoming era of compatibility issues, which includes balance...

slow juniper
gentle forum
#

brotha preach

#

so many times people ask for mod features

#

and all I can think about it

#

"how do I make this mod make sense? How do I make it balanced?"

#

someone wanted NPCs to use GRIP and I'm like... bruh

#

no one would ever not two hand a one handed weapon if they had one

fresh kite
#

Umbra enters the chat

gentle forum
#

NPCs hardly have two handed weapons AND a shield

#

so no NPC would use a 1H two hander

#

I try to not think about balance with the noita mod

gentle forum
#

what a chad

fresh kite
#

oh yeah i forgot he had a shield x_x

slow juniper
gentle forum
#

and I'm like

#

bruh I've brainstormed for days about it and I simply cannot think of a way to do it without completely changing the game

#

unless you want it to be super OP and unbalanced

#

watch someone figure out a way

#

I hope so

compact pagoda
#

Fun fact. Your Speechcraft Bribery mod just randomly stopped working one day doitswit

gentle forum
#

I'm not surprised

#

its honestly not very good

compact pagoda
#

I was like: but it worked a week ago

#

Well, not anymore

#

that was 2-3 months ago, I just forgot about it

gentle forum
#

it needs so much IMHO

#

its just not enough for what it tries to do

slow juniper
gentle forum
#

one day someone will figure it out

#

I hope

slow juniper
#

We may need new Lua features, or dehardcoding the persuasion window

gentle forum
#

if we could mess with the dialogue directly with lua it could do stuff

#

maybe.

#

idk it would be lots of work

fresh kite
#

dialogue extender would be pretty cool

gentle forum
#

but I fall back to this question

#

"What is a good speechcraft system?"

#

even the 'go to' examples really aren't... that great. And would require changing what Morrowind is to implement

#

like a Fallout system or a Mass Effect system

#

they are just... alright I guess. I dunno. Better than anything else is what I would say.

compact pagoda
#

MW has a decent concept for Persuasion. Meh execution.

#

Def no BioWare stuff here. Wrong game.

#

Def good to have other ways of influencing Disposition than magic.

gentle forum
#

all the elder scrolls execution for persuasion have been lackluster

compact pagoda
#

It only got worse tbh

#

Oblivion minigame suxxed

#

And Skyrim is more about a few dialogue checks or passive benefits than a system

#

We also never regained Daggerfall stuff. Trials for crimes, the ability to convince the authorities about your innocence.

#

But there is a WIP mod for Morrowind which will cover some of that.

gentle forum
#

ngl I never got arrested in Daggerfall so my experience with speech was basically the annoying streetwise/formal/whatever crap

#

it never seemed like what the NPC looks like or where they were mattered much, you just had to try them all

#

inside a palace? why am I using streetwise right now for this royal looking person but its working idfk

fringe fossil
compact pagoda
gentle forum
#

on Xbox

#

original

compact pagoda
#

But even if gameplay mods are compatible, they may create a messy/incoherent experience when used together because the authors had different visions about balance or didn't care about it.

fringe fossil
#

Still a milestone

fresh kite
compact pagoda
fresh kite
#

most people ragequit at the imp behind the door that completely destroys your character while you sit there and poke at it with a dagger realizing it does no damage when it hits after missing 9 times

compact pagoda
fresh kite
#

Morrowind: You'll never forget your first cliff racer.

soft lantern
soft lantern
slow juniper
#

@gentle forum please send me an archive of you DCC mod with the compatibility events when you added them

#

@zenith karma please suggest attribute impacts per skill for your custom skills (skillId + impacts)

slow juniper
zenith karma
slow juniper
zenith karma
#

Shit, sorry I missed needing the skill IDs, lemme grab them just to be sure

#

multi tasking 😅

slow juniper
zenith karma
#

IDs:
toxicology
throwing
staves_staves
evasion_evasion

zenith karma
compact pagoda
#

IIRC @zenith karma replaces Blunt Weapons skill gains with Staves skill gains. Then it makes sense to treat Staves the same way as Blunt Weapons.

#

if you do the same for Throwing/Marksman, then it makes sense there as well

zenith karma
#

Staves shouldn't raise STR by as much as Blunt would though?

slow juniper
#

Makes sense. But should they really increase intelligence? 🤔

compact pagoda
#

7 is fair

#

unlike, you know, Fishing (misc activity)

#

😄

slow juniper
compact pagoda
compact pagoda
slow juniper
zenith karma
#

Holding it does!

compact pagoda
slow juniper
compact pagoda
#

actually, WIL may be a better fit

#

than INT

soft lantern
compact pagoda
#

since WIL affects spellcasting

zenith karma
slow juniper
compact pagoda
soft lantern
compact pagoda
#

xD

zenith karma
#

If you cast a spell with a staff equipped you also get a small amount of Staff exp

compact pagoda
#

?

slow juniper
compact pagoda
#

and you already have Toxicology for heavy INT impact

gentle forum
#

oh shoot

#

lol it didnt zip my bad

compact pagoda
gentle forum
#

I was like

#

1kb?

#

should send on new game player onActive
onChargenModRegistration({ modId = "DaggerCC" })
and when DaggerfallCC applies its attribute/skill changes and after the UI closes
onChargenModFinished({ modId = "DaggerCC" })

zenith karma
compact pagoda
# zenith karma Evasion = AGI 5, SPE 2 Throwing = SPE 4, AGI 2, STR 1 Staves = AGI 3, SPE 2, INT...

So it seems that Staves and Throwing replace Blunt Weapons and Marksman skill gains. No issue with 7 attribute impact IMO. Toxicology is sth entirely new, but you don't seem to gatekeep it too much (everybody can start using it right at lvl 1 and there is no reason not to). Evasion is sth that benefits every character because it's gained via misses and that happens naturally for everyone, no matter what you do, and you simply benefit more if you use no armor or light armor.

Therefore, I propose:

  • 7 overall attribute impact for Throwing and Staves (they are sort of like other Vanilla weapon skills)
  • 5 overall attribute impact for Toxicology (entirely new skill that encourages everyone to use it, so a bit lower than the other ones so it doesn't result in too much of a power boost)
  • 3 overall attribute impact for Evasion (to prevent too many freebie passive gains in standard gameplay)
zenith karma
#

Makes sense to me

slow juniper
gentle forum
#

ah shoot

#

oh well

#

so you basically just wanted a "hey I'm about to change stats" and then "I'm done now k bye"

slow juniper
slow juniper
#

@zenith karma

slow juniper
#

Which impacts for Bardcraft? Mostly personality I suppose

soft lantern
#

Maybe a tiny impact in agility for manual dexterity necessary to play the instrument, but can work without too

fringe fossil
#

maybe something like

  • PER 3
  • AGI 2
  • WIL 2
#

or higher personality, because it sounds a little underwhelming

#

maybe

  • PER 3
  • AGI 1
  • WIL 1
compact pagoda
slow juniper
#

Now, what other custom skills am I missing?

soft lantern
#

You got SD's cooking and all the Hugh's stuff (meditation/incantation/swimming)?

slow juniper
#

Not at all

#

I have no computer access until Monday, so I'm trying to get into from you guys 😅

soft lantern
#

there's also a Vampirism WIP somewhere around here

compact pagoda
barren arrow
#

I can't wait for inter-OP 🔥
I wanted to do the Wretched challenge, but as it is, starting stats are all wonky

slow juniper
compact pagoda
slow juniper
#

Ah

barren arrow
slow juniper
#

That interop

compact pagoda
# barren arrow

Lmao, I think that I will play as a Wretch as well at some point 😄

slow juniper
barren arrow
compact pagoda
slow juniper
barren arrow
# slow juniper Oh, interesting trait

Here's what my actual starting stats are BTW.
(my character is dunmer, with dunmer lineage background and str/agi stat. Before the wretched background selection, speed and agi were my highest stats, with personality and endurance my lowest. I'm not sure how I end up with negative agi, but 10 personality 🤔 )

image.png
barren arrow
compact pagoda
# compact pagoda

BTW I have no idea how you want to handle Battle Exp and what to do with it in terms of attribute impact. Should it even have any?

As for other skills which aren't handled yet, I think that almost all of them should have 3 attribute impact, maybe with the exception of Stargazer which seems niche and have no overlap as well.

barren arrow
#

Not sure I go from 1st screenshot to 3rd screenshot through the 2nd one 🤔
But the maths of these mods are a mystery to me anyway 🤷

screenshot612.jpg image.png image.png
fringe fossil
#

Simple as that

barren arrow
#

ohhhh so like I had high agi in part because I had a bunch of AGI-boosting skills, so when they got lowered more than the rest, NCG lowered my AGI the most?

fringe fossil
#

yep

barren arrow
#

makes sense 💡

#

cheers

compact pagoda
#

how do you block training @fringe fossil ?

fringe fossil
#

I block UI from popping up

barren arrow
fringe fossil
#

Train companions?

barren arrow
#

I was wondering how II'd get Julan to build the way I wanted if trainers were blocked

#

Yeah, Julan at least has dialogue with trainers NPC, where you can choose "train julan". It's independant from the PC training pop up

compact pagoda
#

so it wouldn't be impacted

barren arrow
#

<awesome

compact pagoda
#

btw fun fact: Morrowind has a base game feature which makes travelling cost higher if you have a follower

fringe fossil
compact pagoda
#

there are almost no followers in Vanilla except some rare temporary quest cases

#

and they implemented this 😄

#

so you pay for a ride for 2

#

Another fun fact: followers can catch diseases. Sth which I learned not that long ago, lol.

barren arrow
#

such cool details

compact pagoda
#

again, this is sth which many people won't even notice and it's not needed at all considering Vanilla's lack of real followers (one was added in Tribunal as a mercenary)

#

yet they added it

#

interesting

#

in that same game, Blind makes you more likely to hit enemies (increased hit chance) in non-OMW Vanilla todd

slow juniper
#

Ralts set agility as the bardcraft governing attribute, instead of personality.
Should we respect his choice and offer different impacts, like AGI 4, PER 2, WIL 1?

barren arrow
#

I guess it depends on what he meant to represent.
If it was like, the dexterity and skill required to play instruments, or the scene presence for the show to be well received by the public. I could see both in such a mod, but I haven't tried it yet, so my guess would be the mod's mechanics are more focused on the playing side than on the "captivating the crowd" side?

#

Do stats impact anything in bardcraft skill?

compact pagoda
#

well, NCG wouldn't change the governing attribute, so maybe go with AGI 3, PER 2

barren arrow
#

Whatever the skill scales off of (if any) should be main stat

compact pagoda
#

are there bardcraft trainers?

#

if not, then governing attribute isn't even that important for NCG

slow juniper
slow juniper
compact pagoda
slow juniper
compact pagoda
#

Dog? 36vehks

slow juniper
#

I think WIL suits more staves, but I'll let @zenith karma decide

slow juniper
compact pagoda
#

I think dog would say "whoof".

slow juniper
soft lantern
meager lintel
zenith karma
slow juniper
compact pagoda
barren arrow
#

(the way not to decide)

slow juniper
compact pagoda
#

😄

barren arrow
#

I mean... That dog did seem very agile and willful, on top of being a smart dog 🐶

zenith karma
gentle forum
#

is the chargen changes live or should I hold off on releasing the updated daggerfallCC

slow juniper
#

I added the Weak disadvantage (-10 STR), I can see the -10 STR on the active spell icons, but the -10 is not applied

#

it seems negative fortify effects are not applied

barren arrow
#

I noticed when I tested the community character traits with NCG, I had some attribute buffs showing in my magic menu and bottom right of the screen, but the debuffs from the same trait (iirc dunmer lineage) didn't appear in the same magic menu. both showed in tooltip when hovering the attribute though (iirc)

slow juniper
#

also, it seems the way you set the attribute base values overrides the ability modifiers you took as advantages.
I tried without NCG, one time with the strong advantage, another without advantages, and my final strength is always the one I set when I distribute the attribute points, I never get the +10

slow juniper
#

buffs are handled with fortification effects, which are naturally shown by the engine

barren arrow
#

ok

slow juniper
#

@gentle forum I'm ready to release, but I'd like your opinion on my 2 points first

gentle forum
#

I was under the impression that the advantage/disadvantages were buffs/debuffs

#

I didnt make that part of the mod

#

I’ll check it out tonight

slow juniper
barren arrow
#

I there a reason why negative attributes can't be a debuff like positive ones? just curious

fringe fossil
barren arrow
pearl schooner
#

anybody else having an issue where this mod kepps giving you luck on death even after changing the setting?

#

i have 142 luck currently

slow juniper
pearl schooner
#

i may have missed the death counter ill take a look thanks

#

will i need to set my luck lower with the console after i check that?

slow juniper
#

Same if you keep the death counter enabled and set the luck per death modifier to 0

gentle forum
#

one figured out, one to go. Then I'll try to get you a fixed version soon

#

first fix is to just delay writing the advantage/disadvantage stats till after the 2nd portion of the quiz is done, but before sending the 'im done' event

#

so the quiz raises your strength to like 60, and then weak give you the -10

#

hmmm

#

I'm not sure what to do for phobias though

#

they aren't a one time thing, they come and go as you see things

slow juniper
gentle forum
#

I think maybe just skills

#

as a temporary debuff

#

I don't know too much about the advantages/disadvantages, someone else made it and the community requested we merge our mods

#

I basically just made a combined mod that runs their mod UI before mine.

gentle forum
#

I dont think there is a way to visually show the stat as damaged that doesn't allow a shrine to 'cure' it

fringe fossil
fringe fossil
slow juniper
slow juniper
gentle forum
#

phobias are already damage skill

slow juniper
#

then all good

gentle forum
#

edit: I'm gonna apply them before the event is sent

slow juniper
#

will it be visible when you distribute the attribute or skill points?

gentle forum
#

I suppose I should show them in my UI as well...

#

I mean they will have the 'debuff' icon still to know that they took it

#

since it doesn't do anything except exist visually, but we change the stats directly now

#

I could just throw in like a -10 in red at the end of the DaggerfallCC UI or whatever it is they chose

slow juniper
#

if you fix the permanent attr/skill debuffs by just altering their base values, there will be no effect icon in-game. Maybe these changes should be integrated into your UI when you distribute points

gentle forum
#

so if currently it does nothing, but the debuff shows an icon with -10 Strength, I just script in the stat changes directly and still leave the debuff so the icon will still exist.

slow juniper
#

ah, interesting idea

gentle forum
#

bug? no no... now is a feature

slow juniper
#

🙂

gentle forum
slow juniper
#

and with NCG, the -10 will be visible in the attribute tooltip

#

not for skills though

gentle forum
slow juniper
#

nice!

#

the "-100" could be moved just after the base value

#

-10/+10 too

#

why there is no Base value for Misc skills?

gentle forum
#

an oversight

#

thnx

slow juniper
#

@fringe fossil what will be the CTF version compatible with the NCG's version?

#

@gentle forum same question

fringe fossil
#

Next 1.X probably

gentle forum
#

just need to fix the rows in the UI

#

and its ready to release

#

has the events + the fixes you suggested

slow juniper
#

NCG will be 2.0

#

I need versions to set the compatibility info in the readme

gentle forum
#

v1.2

gentle forum
slow juniper
#

misc skill names don't have enough space

gentle forum
#

oopsies

#

thx for pointing it out

slow juniper
#

Natural Character Growth (NCG)

slow juniper
gentle forum
#

its done i just got busy with fixing my mod a thon mod and it slipped my mind

#

I’ll upload it after work, sorry sweatboy

gentle forum
#

its also live on Nexus now

fringe fossil
#

I might've missed a memo. Did NCG get updated already? 👀

slow juniper
#

Not yet

#

I've been away from my laptop for 4 days

#

I think I'll release it when Skill Evolution's update will also be ready, as they both add the Skill Framework integration

#

SE still needs more testing, and there is one more SF integration I'd like to support: Custom skill gain settings for custom skills

#

NCG also needs some additional work to set proper custom skill descriptions (greatly impacts strength...)

compact pagoda
#

Nice. With NCG-like descriptions, attribute growth and support for skill gain and decay, they will feel like a part of one coherent system 🙂

barren arrow
#

Wretched challenge incoming soon 🔥

surreal bane
#

@slow juniper, I've probably said this before, but yet again, your modding taste is impeccable, both in regards to your own mods and those you recommend on your mod pages. I particularly appreciate the delicateness you take when affecting game balance and such--they feel like such seamless upgrades that they're hard to imagine playing without in my mind. Kind of like those other mod suite authors like Simonmagus with Skyrim, for example.

#

Just saying this because I saw your relatively recent magic rebalance mod, and I'm again struck by the level of care.

#

That's all to say, kudos, and keep it up

forest robin
#

Link!

surreal bane
forest robin
#

the rebalance mod.

surreal bane
#

oh, sure, one sec

fringe fossil
surreal bane
#

i think they're referring to the magic rebalance

fringe fossil
#

hmm, guess it's more up to date there, yeah

surreal bane
#

wdym?

fringe fossil
#

HBFS also has a list of recommended mods

surreal bane
#

oh I see

fringe fossil
#

Bit I don't think it has updated recently

surreal bane
#

If this is the same sort of list, it's probably more up to date, yeah

#

I'm adding some of Mym's suggestions to my list

#

got a pretty sweet loadout if I do say so myself. could be some issues as usual but I think it's mostly in sorts

slow juniper
slow juniper
#

But different, as focused on difficulty mods

surreal bane
#

You're very welcome. I didn't catch that Cybvep was involved; all the above to them as well, then

slow juniper
#

For MRF, I did the Lua features, the balance review, the repository/packaging, and the code which generates the very useful technical changelogs

surreal bane
#

Gotcha. I've been looking for something like this for awhile, since magic, fun as it is, is kind of FUBAR in vanilla

#

and as you said in the description of the mod, other mods do try but they're often insufficient

slow juniper
#

The BTB Game Improvements mod did a good job in the past, but he was too drastic, and the mod is now too old to properly integrate with recent mods

surreal bane
#

It's a shame when a mod with good ideas gets left behind. Kind of intrinsic with mod development, but still

#

It's not left behind, but Races Respected feels that way to me

slow juniper
#

MRF's scope is also wider than BTB's regarding magic

surreal bane
#

a lot of cool but some odd choices and not the best modern support

#

they shrunk Imperials 😭

compact pagoda
surreal bane
#

Care to elaborate on why you like it so much?

compact pagoda
# surreal bane Care to elaborate on why you like it so much?

Because it does more by doing less. Expanded Vanilla uses different mods for races and birthsigns and I ended up removing them. This mod makes enough important tweaks to offer more interesting choices, nerfing some of the overpowered things and buffing underpowered ones, and lowers resistances across the board which works far better gameplay-wise and allows more interesting gameplay progression (you ignore fewer items, for example). All this without changing the theme of races and birthsigns and without using uber strong effects as abilities (like Reflect which some mods use too prodigiously).

surreal bane
#

I'm not saying you're wrong--just not seeing how it's doing what you say

compact pagoda
#

I don't have a problem with Vanilla attributes and skills tbh

#

It's more about abilitiesn, e.g. overtuned Nord resistances, Atronach being too strong and overshadowing many other choices.

surreal bane
#

Hmm, my issue with the vanilla attributes and skills is that they often feel scattershot if not contradictory. Dunmer, for example, are very indistinct, with weapon choices that aren't terribly mutualistic--I like Races Respected's approach of making them more able war-wizards, and more on-part magically with Bretons. Of course, any character ought to be able to be any archetype, but still.

#

Also, I don't remember which ones, but some of the races just have very scattered weapon skills. Variety of choice does matter but sometimes it can be too much

compact pagoda
#

It's a matter of preference, but when mods try to do too much with races, I usually end up disliking them because they are overhauling something which doesn't need an overhaul.

surreal bane
#

Yeah. It's a thin line between adding meaningful complexity and overdoing it. I try to stick to expounding upon game elements that need them, and leaving alone what doesn't need touching (with some exceptions--Sun's Dusk is really cool, and I think synergistic with MW's travel mechanics).

compact pagoda
surreal bane
#

Yeah, I mean, ultimately they should be a template, not a "build" unto themselves.

compact pagoda
#

We don't need more DnD here

surreal bane
#

That's kind of why I have a minor gripe with the positioning of Altmer, because their magicka bonus is so damned tempting, it makes other races feel a bit impotent in comparison in that regard. Even if it all evens out in the end

fringe fossil
surreal bane
#

absolutely

barren arrow
#

I love that there are so many races and birth signs mods out there tbh, feels like everyone can fine tune how they prefer it (personally, I use an obscure one that I don't even know if they are still downloadable somewhere... Found it years ago on a non-nexus page)

surreal bane
#

If the game was built more around fast travel it wouldn't matter as much, but fortunately it's not

surreal bane
#

I love 90% of the decisions and then some are bewildering

#

Again, Races Respected shrinking Imperials is utterly bizarre

compact pagoda
surreal bane
#

true

#

I think we've talked about this here before lol

#

like, survival mods in something like Oblivion would mean very little

compact pagoda
#

You unlock more and more options, learn the routes, gain access to items/spells which make travelling faster etc.

surreal bane
#

Yeah, exactly. Integrating the travel into the quests is genius, since so much can happen organically from just the travel, even if the quest itself is unremarkable.

#

I realized that a long time ago doing the introductory Mage Guild quests

#

At any rate, maybe I'll take a closer look at the race/birthsign mod you recommended. I generally trust y'all's discernment with these things, so maybe there's something I'm missing

compact pagoda
barren arrow
#

Temple introductory quest 👀

compact pagoda
surreal bane
#

Temple is my favorite faction

#

The Pilgrimage is definitely my favorite quest

compact pagoda
#

I end up joining the Temple very rarely. It doesn't fit most characters.

#

But it's cool

surreal bane
#

My RP for that sage character I mentioned was that he was imprisoned for an ungodly amount of time and that the current world is foreign to him. So he joined the Temple to learn more about the land and its people. Kind of had a natural arc with the main story, becoming a champion of the people and all that.

#

inspired by a line from the general at the census office if you ask about the empire--says something like "you haven't been imprisoned that long, have you? hit your head?"

compact pagoda
surreal bane
#

For sure

barren arrow
#

Mine is a generic bandit that, upon being released with a "emperor is watching you, so behave or else" and forced into the Blades, freaks out and desperately looks for a way out. Joins the Temple, not out of piety, but because imperial factions and Hlaalu are out of question. Ends up in the Telvanni later down the line, since it's the only faction that Caius says "I don't know much about them" when he first presents the various factions.

surreal bane
#

lmao becoming an archwizard to avoid the feds

#

while being a fed

barren arrow
#

The fact that TR has the Monastery of Saint Aralor ended up great for me too. It even has a western NPC who tells she's here just because it was this or serving time lol

compact pagoda
#

I haven't found a single Fatigue rebalance mod I liked scarytodd . There is always sth off and I like Vanilla more, heh. But if sb is used to Oblivion or Skyrim, they will probably end up vibing with these mods more.

compact pagoda
surreal bane
#

I personally really like how Morrowind plays naturally, so I try not to molest any of the fundamentals unless they're something really messed up. Leveling, for example, and how that impacts game balance (being ungodly powerful by the midgame with any remotely optimized build).

#

I would never use that En Garde mod, for example, or change the way stamina and encumberance works. I love that slow pace. It's perfect IMO

compact pagoda
#

Ha ha

surreal bane
#

What I do want is greater balance and immersion

compact pagoda
#

I get you.

#

BUT

#

N'Garde is greatly integrated into all Vanilla mechanics.

surreal bane
#

Is it? It seemed to me to be an effort at changing the game into a rudimentary action-RPG.

compact pagoda
#

Only if you use some optional settings

surreal bane
#

It is remarkably impressive, don't get me wrong. But it seemed to go against the CRPG stylings of MW

barren arrow
#

It does change the way you physically fight, but it's just making it more involved instead of just spamming click. It still relies on all skill levels and such, doesn't erase any of the game gameplay

compact pagoda
#

At it's core, it makes blocking an active part of combat without touching hit chance and with using attributes, skills and Fatigue for every formula.

surreal bane
#

I see. So you'll still have the usual hit chance and all that--just more agency on how to proc these things

compact pagoda
#

Yes

#

Unless you turn on "glancing hits"

#

If you like Vanilla, don't.

#

It's just anims

#

No gameplay

barren arrow
surreal bane
#

I see. That is interesting. I'll take a closer look at it. I don't suspect I'll take to it, but still, better than it seemed from what y'all are saying

compact pagoda
surreal bane
#

lmao something like that

compact pagoda
surreal bane
#

I thought it was following the tradition of ultra-modded Skyrim

#

I didn't necessarily think it did away with Skills or whatever, but it seemed really at-odds with the game's core systems

compact pagoda
surreal bane
#

fully agreed. TBH I just don't like Skyrim much

#

I find that the roleplay potential is miniscule

#

I've been meaning to give it another go since it's been a super long time for me, but underneath everything no matter what, it'll still be Skyrim

compact pagoda
surreal bane
#

Sounds good, thanks

compact pagoda
#

btw @slow juniper I think that you really should add "(NCG)" to the mod title. Let's just say that finding it with search function can be annoying.

image.png
#

and using NCGDMW at this point is really not optimal

slow juniper
#

Yeah but there is already an OpenMW suffix to my mod names

compact pagoda
soft lantern
surreal bane
#

Even if En Garde isn't to my tastes, it's super impressive work. You should be proud

#

I am using the dodge animation version, at Cybvep's recommendation

soft lantern
#

Nah, all good. It changes the combat quite a bit, and I've released the "combat feedback only" version specifically for someone like you.

But, imo - it makes combat better than e.g. vanilla tes4/tes5, and also stays true and faithful to all the vanilla mechanics

#

that was the intent anyway

surreal bane
#

I can imagine especially if you've played Morrowind a ton, the click to (hopefully) hit combat can get a bit dull. I haven't played the game as much as some here have for sure, so I haven't tired of it.

#

Adding some real feedback sounds like a no-brainer

soft lantern
#

well, enjoy. Whichever version you prefer, it's a mod - so always optional.
Just making sure there's no misconceptions about what it does and doesn't do

surreal bane
#

Of course, makes sense. I hastily misjudged it in hindsight

#

Hence the unflattering comparsion to ultramodded skyrim lol

soft lantern
#

It also, imo slows down the combat quite a bit. Since you need to think and wait often before striking, instead of just hitting

slow juniper
slow juniper
#

NCG 2.0 released!

  • Support custom skills added through the Skill Framework mod
  • The default skill impact on attributes for custom skills is 7 on the governing attribute
  • Built-in multi-attribute skill impact presets for some existing custom skills: Ralts' Bardcraft, SunsDusk's Cooking, Kildozery's Throwing, Staves, Evasion and Toxicology
  • Improved mod compatibility by disabling the automatic player level calculation from the initial skill values
  • Now, as in Vanilla, only natural skill increases contribute to the player level progression (skill base value changes from mods, quests or the console won't alter the player level anymore)
  • Added a console command to adjust the player level progression
  • Improved mod compatibility by disabling the automatic chargen attribute and skill determination
  • Now, the initial stats (growth start values) are saved after chargen or mid-game installation, and after chargen mod alterations
  • Added a compatibility interface for chargen mods that alter the initial player stats, e.g. traits from the Character Traits Framework mod
  • The attribute growth setting now offers more options
  • Added notifications when the player's maximum health changes (on by default)
  • Improved Agility and Strength attribute descriptions (thx to @compact pagoda)
  • Fixed OpenMW 0.51 UI warning in attribute tooltips (thx to @Arrean)
  • Bitter Cup: fixed wrong attribute modifiers when nerfed attribute base values reach 0
  • Optimized the setting management for better performances, stability and maintainability
  • Multiple settings will be reset to their default value, check the setting page
  • Can be installed or updated mid-game
compact pagoda
slow juniper
#

NCG doesn't alter school descriptions. I think it would be best to do it in MRF

compact pagoda
slow juniper
fringe fossil
slow juniper
barren arrow
slow juniper
#

NCG v2.0.1, 2.0.2 and 2.0.3 released!

  • Fixed Sun's Dusk Cooking skill description not updated with impacts on attributes
  • Fixed a growth error when custom skills register too late
  • Fixed Sun's Dusk Cooking skill not properly detected
  • Fixed a growth error for custom skills which don't have any governing attribute
  • Fixed the restoration skill description (removed the "absorb" info)
compact pagoda
#

hat-trick 36vehks

barren arrow
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BTW I noticed some time ago that my speechcraft and enchanting skills didnt have the attributes development details in the tooltip (I forgot to mention it before, sorry). The part that says Develops attribute X a great amount and attribute Y a fair amount.

No idea if it comes from the mod or some interference. I have no mod related to speechcraft, and no enchanting-specific mod either (unless you count Disenchant).

#

the attribute increases still occur, its just the tooltip description thats missing a bit

compact pagoda
soft lantern
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the description is a GMST,

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I'm betting on a dirty edit somewhere

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any mod that has an esp/omwaddon and is laoded after ncg is suspect

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hah

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I have the bug too

compact pagoda
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maybe we can identify them if you provide your load order

soft lantern
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Billie, can you open your openmw.cfg and send me everything below ncg.omwaddon

barren arrow
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Alright, cheers.
Ill do some tests with changin LO. NCG id not that high in my LO so I should find the culprit

soft lantern
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send me part of your LO after ncg

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I can compare where they match

compact pagoda
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I've just checked Service Refusal and Dagoth Ur Menace and they don't have such edits.

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(whew)

barren arrow
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Huh, seems NCG is way higher in my LO than I thought it would be (my current install is old and its a mess).

On the other hands, the only mods we have in common below NCG are :

  • Skill Evolution (duh),
  • NGarde,
  • Character Traits.
📎 NCG_LO.txt
soft lantern
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oh

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it's Skill Evolution :D. And I think Mym posted in SE thread that he has cleaned up the descriptions:

Fixed NCG description tweaks overridden by this mod's additions to the skill tooltips

image.png
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:P We both should've just updated to latest first

barren arrow
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I just updated

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when I saw it was still there, thats when I thought to report

soft lantern
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Lemme update too

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I mean, same after update too

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Do we perchance need to load NCG after SE?

barren arrow
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It really is SE

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I just tested with SE before NCG in LO and the tooltip description is OK

soft lantern
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well, that's mystery solved

barren arrow
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Now that its solved, Ill go to sleep (dreaming of Character Traits next update to finally start that Wretched challenge 🙏 Im not at all obsessed)

slow juniper
compact pagoda
slow juniper
# barren arrow BTW I noticed some time ago that my **speechcraft** and **enchanting** skills di...

I just checked and I have the proper descriptions, while SE is loaded after NCG.
I think your issue is the merged plugin not being properly generated (delta plugin) or loaded.
SE alters the 2 aforementioned skills, but only alter specific skill gains, those set to 0 in vanilla, in order to be able to alter their gains from the settings.
The descriptions are not changed, and Delta Plugin knows it and preserved NCG's altered descriptions.

surreal bane
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Hey, I'm starting a new playthrough but I don't think NCG is working right, and I'm not sure why. It seems like my stats aren't updating at chargen like they normally would--I just have the default Attributes like normal. In the past they've changed right out of chargen, usually with a notification, and I would have funky numbers for all my Attributes based on my skills. Now no such thing.

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I know that I have both the .omwscripts and .omwaddon files enabled in the launcher

slow juniper
surreal bane
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Oh, really?

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let me try updating and seeing if that fixes it

surreal bane
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can you just verify that my stats seem reasonable? to make sure it's working right

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I'll send a pic in a sec

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the 0 sneak is from burglary overhaul since I'm "spotted"

compact pagoda
surreal bane
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got it, thanks

slow juniper
surreal bane
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awesome, thanks. I just wanted a quick lookover, see if anything seems insane--sounds like no issue

fringe fossil
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The NCG message got a little uglier after updating :<

image.png
barren arrow
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79 to 108 👀

compact pagoda
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seems too long. Do you need from X to Y?

fringe fossil
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Technically it's for vanilla parity

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plus it makes it more readable

slow juniper
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Oh, I thought it could be useful. But I can revert the change if you prefer the old way

fringe fossil
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it is useful, just not as pretty

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Maybe removing "Your" can help?

compact pagoda
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might be enough

barren arrow
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I didn't mind the lengh, I'm not particularly attached one way or another, but I did like the new version

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Removing the "your" is indeed a way to make it shorter

slow juniper
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NCG 2.0.6 released!

  • Reduced the lag on game loading
  • Improved the attribute and health notification messages
  • Improved the detection of negative fortifications (trick used in some mods)
  • Fixed the "Character Traits Framework" mod's link
soft lantern
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Hey Mym. Got a question.

Been getting this on recent versions:

Looks like it happens when it tries to parse "Aquatics" which has a "swimming_skill" id.

[22:03:38.362 E] stack traceback:
[22:03:38.362 E]     [string "scripts/ncg/core/attributes.lua"]:139: in function 'getGrowth'
[22:03:38.362 E]     [string "scripts/ncg/player.lua"]:186: in function 'growAttribute'
[22:03:38.362 E]     [string "scripts/ncg/player.lua"]:204: in function 'updateGrowth'
[22:03:38.362 E]     [string "scripts/ncg/player.lua"]:262: in function <[string "scripts/ncg/player.lua"]:256>
[22:03:38.362 E]     [C]: in ?

it seems that it happens on this line:

but for some reason doesn't happen for incantation - even though that one doesn't have custom gains defined either

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Also, the incantation/swimming author is not really active here, and didn't respond to my ping when you were originally gathering custom skill impacts.
So here's my suggestion:

        swimming_skill = {endurance = 3, strength = 1, agility = 1},
        incantation_skill = {willpower = 2, intelligence = 1, personality = 1}
slow juniper
slow juniper
clear stag
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I'm fairly new to Morrowind and running a modlist with NCG. I'm unsure what to pick during character creation since misc skills don't affect leveling in the current version.

I'm going to build some kind of a battle mage and from what I've read long blades seem nice but I might wanna use spears also (at least) since they don't exist in the other games.

Should I pick up both long blade and spears + schools of magic. Basically the skills I use the most?

I know from og Oblivion days that you had to select the skills you didn't wanna use to maximize the attributes per level.

I'm a bit unsure regarding NCG + the skills I'm going to use the most will result in leveling too quickly or too slow with skills like long blade, spear and destruction. In regards to vanilla leveling.

fringe fossil
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Pick whatever, you won't softlock yourself caius

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Plus even if you do, you have plenty of options to unfuck yourself if worst comes to worst

forest robin
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Yup. That's what this is for.