drg-chat

[sterile torrent]

I do love crabs

[static mortar]

Pitjaws just actually feel good to play around unlike stuff like stalker or leech have felt.

[deft summit]

I think I liked them back on release, but these days I despise them

[sterile torrent]

But I fucking hate pit jaws

[wooden whale]

pit jaw health scaling do suck tho imo

[clever scroll]

Scrabs can be really annoying to hit up close

[static mortar]

You also know pitjaws are gonna exist so you can play around them and then never care outside of it.

[deft summit]

Funny you say this because I hold the exact opposite opinion

[static mortar]

Leeches literally not playing the sound cue (surely this feels good to play around)

[deft summit]

Ok but that's a bug

[plain vessel]

but they do now

[deft summit]

I understand that it sucks

[clever scroll]

Didn't they fix that?

[deft summit]

But I don't find it fair to judge an enemy based off something that is unintended

[clever scroll]

I always hear them now

[deft summit]

Also, it was patched

[static mortar]

Yeah they fixed it now but it was like that until that point.

[frank juniper]

Leeches are supposed to make sounds?

[clever scroll]

A hiss

[sterile torrent]

They are extremely fucking loud

[static mortar]

Stalkers punishing low graphic settings, spawning on top of you, burrowing on top of you, having zero counterplay besides death and fear.

[sterile torrent]

If anything they are way easier to avoid that any other grabber enemy

[static mortar]

Just killing you outright instead of letting the shield disruption actually make you vulnerable.

[wooden whale]

yeah but the pitch is usually not easily heard by average player
-# hence why i modded them with meme sfx

[sterile torrent]

That's actually an issue I have with pit jaws

[deft summit]

I just look up until I know there aren't Leeches and Stalkers aren't something I think anyone needs to worry about until you know they are in the pool, which you will from the obvious sound cue

[clever scroll]

Well, stalkers have 1 thing that effectively neuters them if you're driller

[sterile torrent]

I can't hear them

[deft summit]

And yes, I know the Stalker sound cue is bugged

[clever scroll]

The impact axes stay stuck in them and r visible

[static mortar]

Stalker sound cue not playing.

[wooden whale]

fear is a powerful motivator

[clever scroll]

But yes

All those other problems

[deft summit]

#drg-chat message

[cobalt mauve]

Mactera Grabber gang

[static mortar]

Tbf if you have impact axe and see a stalker it's just dying.

[cobalt mauve]

Now there's a grabbing enemy I don't mind

[static mortar]

Unless it was like only 1 left.

[clever scroll]

Elite grabbers

[deft summit]

Stalkers aren't deadly enough for me to care anyway

[clever scroll]

They're fun

[cobalt mauve]

They're so funny

[sterile torrent]

Oh no my shield

[deft summit]

Like real talk, who is worried about stalkers before knowing they are in the pool?

[sterile torrent]

Anyway

[deft summit]

This feels like such a non-issue for the enemy

[clever scroll]

Phases through the wall

[wooden whale]

i think i got caught by grabber once when it suddenly spawn directly on my face

[static mortar]

Stalkers could've been fun, you could've destroyed the light armor on their legs and now the legs are always visible, but instead they made the armor unbreakable cause what is consistent design.

[deft summit]

What are you doing in case they are present before it's confirmed anyway? Just keeping an eye out?

[clever scroll]

I mean, if it's real calm you can see and hear their footsteps

[deft summit]

Leeches I get, you gotta keep watching the ceiling

But Stalkers???

[sterile torrent]

They are very loud so, it becomes a priority to track them down

[clever scroll]

I get most of them via the footstep debris

[sterile torrent]

I actually do find that fun

[clever scroll]

I rarely get smacked by them

[static mortar]

I don't stay awake at night cause a mission can have stalkers in it but I'm not happy if it does and I'm disappointed in the potential left on the floor of the enemies design.

[wooden whale]

stalker isn't much of an issue to me unless you are in tight space

[hollow scroll]

That's not even what neuters them if you're Driller, the actual thing that neuters them is that they take two axes to kill and you can throw two axes before they burrow so they just insta-die

[deft summit]

Ok but that's an entirely different point and discussion to what you initially said

[hollow scroll]

Provided you know how to quick-throw using animation cancelling

[wooden whale]

the only enemies i have issue with is pit jaw and core spawn

[static mortar]

It's mainly the design, it could've just been a cooler enemy but they didn't do anything unique for counter-play when the potential was right there.

[wooden whale]

also corruptor but i doubt do some rework on old seasonal stuffs

[clever scroll]

I quick cancel so fast I don't even throw the axe sometimes

[deft summit]

Like we all know Stalkers are wasted potential, but that is not what this discussion was about

[sterile torrent]

What was corruptor again

[hybrid girder]

wassup people

[clever scroll]

Walking tumor

Foam it

[wooden whale]

walking shitter

[sterile torrent]

The S4 guy?

[clever scroll]

Suck it

[static mortar]

I never said I'm quitting a mission over a stalker just that it isn't fun.

[clever scroll]

Peel the layers off

[sterile torrent]

Ah yeah that bitch

[static mortar]

And isn't what it could've been.

[clever scroll]

Hit the sweet spot in the niddle

Middle

[static mortar]

Stalker could've had fun custom ways to play around it but instead it kinda just lacks any of that.

[sterile torrent]

Man is so rare to see that guy or litophage now

[clever scroll]

Atleast stalkers are more fun than stingtails imo

[static mortar]

Stalker isn't really fun to play around you just spam your counters if you have them or look harder for a bug you simply shoot the same way you do everything else.

[velvet trail]

and HAROLD

[wooden whale]

if they gonna make another core stone season, i hope they fix the issue with corespawn enemies cuz rn it's either zipline cheese or waste lots of ammo

[clever scroll]

Just tosses you off a cliff, negates all your midair momentum, ignores your dash, instantly melees you

[sterile torrent]

I mean I just shoot to everything that's a basic

[deft summit]

True to an extent. I do change my playstyle knowing a Stalker is present, doing things like watching walls and ceilings a lot more, staying moving even more than usual, etc.

[sterile torrent]

My favourite way to handle them is the cheese floor electrified

Is extremely useless approach

[deft summit]

Again, they aren't anywhere near what they could be, but they are still engaging

[static mortar]

Stingtails are really fun tbh, they set-up easy badass kills on themselves constantly.

But that's the aura farming fun, as an enemy they're kinda awkward, either it means literally nothing or prevents the game winning revive.

[plain vessel]

are they?
stingtails at least have an unbugged cue, and you can dodge them and feel satisfaction
stalkers you either kill instantly and they provided nothing, or you get tagged in a bullshit way for half health

[celest haven]

How should stalkers have been to be more fun

[sterile torrent]

That eats ammo like a dread

But is fun

[grave citrus]

i think theyre fine

[wooden whale]

i use dispenser compound sludge and decide to paint everything green

or cryo driller

[clever scroll]

I don't get tagged often enough for stalkers to feel like a problem, but stingtails

Istg

[celest haven]

Sludge is yellow

[wooden whale]

even then it still sucks

[celest haven]

Not green

[clever scroll]

On high ping they suck

[sterile torrent]

Oh yeah driller is another fun counter

Sucks ass too

But is fun

Freezing or gooing

Or firing up

[plain vessel]

so you spot them and instantly kill them, and they changed nothing about your day

[sterile torrent]

I mean, that's what I do with every other enemy

Spot, shoot

[grave citrus]

the notrious L.E.D.G.E :

[static mortar]

The light armor is breakable and prevents that spot on them from going invisible.

Pinging not being a death sentence.

Them having consistent graphics, spawning not on top of you, having a consistent sound cue.

[clever scroll]

Stingtails also being able to grab during IW is extremely bullshit imo

[grave citrus]

its annoying but its fine

[sterile torrent]

Is the sound thing inconsistent or just a bug?

[static mortar]

Stun doing anything at all, like it does to huulis, brief maybe with a praet resistance after too, making stun act like a slow to them.

[clever scroll]

Can mactera grabbers do that?

[robust quartz]

Gunner feels like the best anti-stalker class

Bullet hell all over the place
Coilgun whole corridors
Leadburster entire rooms

[wooden whale]

true true
resisting the urge to say skill issue

[clever scroll]

Mhm

[clever scroll]

[robust quartz]

When in doubt, it can't attack you in shield gen

[deft summit]

Well this would be nice, this doesn't change how you play around them though going off what you said prior. You're still spamming into hordes hoping you snag it or watch for it to shoot it like all other enemies

[sterile torrent]

I do understand the complaints but is really anything

[wooden whale]

become a ping pong ball from shellback instead

[frank juniper]

Guys

[static mortar]

The HVT forcing you to respect it (it's almost like it's high value)

Game winning revive being fucked over does feel bad though tbf.

[deft summit]

Which, for the record, I don't agree with, but your proposed ideas don't really change your complaints about playstyle

[frank juniper]

How do I get the forge lord helmet

[clever scroll]

Stalkers atleast make me be on alert

Stingtails are either stunned then deleted or fling you into a horde if you mistime the dodge

Or off a cliff

[static mortar]

Stun now works, pinging now works, breaking armor makes subsequent encounters easier, being consistent prevents bullshit, it vastly improves the feel of playing around them.

[hollow scroll]

I prefer Driller because Impact Axes remove them from existence

[sterile torrent]

I axe the questions

[wooden whale]

fat boy the shit out of it

[robust quartz]

Stalkers sometimes feel a bit BS during fights with other bugs but are interesting minigame in the open calm and die easily against heavy corridor area denial during swarms

[sterile torrent]

I'm honestly overall rather fine with the enemies anyway, I just have grips with pit jaws and specially core spawn

[clever scroll]

Also, stingtails can grab yoy on walls

[sterile torrent]

And they are overall pretty manageable with certain approaches too

[clever scroll]

Fall fucking damage yay

[sterile torrent]

So yeah

[clever scroll]

Corespawn are just overtuned for drg

[static mortar]

You can also make spotting stalkers feel better if you need to, like never going full invisible, not always trying to be right behind you, not punishing low graphic settings.

[wooden whale]

"you are jeopardizing the mission"

[clever scroll]

Fucking flings me into the bulk

[sterile torrent]

Is the overall spawn rate

[clever scroll]

Yes

[sterile torrent]

I won't even ask for changes just, less

[rain pollen]

Well, they're called 'core spawn'

[static mortar]

In Rogue Core the corespawn are treated more like HVTs in spawn.

[robust quartz]

"And now, we shall both surely die" - said the dwarf
"Lol, lmao even" - replied the Stingtail

[clever scroll]

They also have more stun resistance than praetorians

Ridiculous

[sterile torrent]

What does HVT means by the way

[plain vessel]

but I will
make their heavy armor work they way it should damnit

[deft summit]

Ok, but you're still just spam firing and hoping to snag it, are you not? It'll be easier to handle, but that things you complained about are still here. I suppose you can ping it, but I don't know why you really would when you could just shoot it. Subsequent encounters is a fair one though

[robust quartz]

High value target

[rain pollen]

Hight value targets

[deft summit]

I don't have an issue with how Stalker encourages you to play as is

[merry herald]

It does a great job of showing how badass the reclaimers are, but I'll be damned if they aren't a pain to fight.

[wooden whale]

spawn rate scale on haz level, tanky af, fast af
personally i think they need to change at least one of them to be at least not pushing the zipline strat

[clever scroll]

Yeah, they aren't even common enemies there

Why tf do we get so many of them?!

[deft summit]

But your solutions don't actually do much to correct the problems you had with how players fight it

[clever scroll]

It doesn't

[robust quartz]

You mean crawlers?
I mean I thought corespawn creepers are the common chaff

[merry herald]

I heard they were mire like grunt guards there, but I can see them being HVTs

[static mortar]

You have 3 other dwarves or a bosco.

[static mortar]

Yeah I guess that's the wrong part of the name to use

[sterile torrent]

I overall go with the spawn rate because a stupidly strong enemy isn't really that bad if they were just less

[clever scroll]

The corespawn crawlers to my knowledge are still threats even to the reclaimers

[sterile torrent]

Or maybe add their weaker versions from Rogue Core

[clever scroll]

But more so like a mactera compared to a grunt

Instead of the drg hellspawn

[deft summit]

What does that matter? In relation to pinging it? I guess, but why would I ping it and leave it wandering around when I could just shoot the fucker? I guess the same reason you do so for Pit Jaws

[sterile torrent]

Like i could complain about all their capabilities but they eat the same bullets anyway

They become a problem later than earlier

[deft summit]

But then again, Stalkers don't really have the HP that Pit Jaws do. I don't often struggle to finish them off

I think it's good to have pinging as an option, I just don't believe it's going to be that impactful

[robust quartz]

Can't wait for S7 turning corestone crawler spam into combined arms tactics

[deft summit]

You'll still be fighting it all the same majority of the time

[wooden whale]

would be funny if in s7 they add corruptor version of core stone

[clever scroll]

Nah, give the corestone ranged enemies that instantly knock you off ziplines

[robust quartz]

Some scorchers to burn people off ziplines

[clever scroll]

Smh

[static mortar]

It's just about making them feel smoother yeah.

[robust quartz]

Fewer crawlers more creepers

[hybrid girder]

well i finally got my double barrel after a month

[sterile torrent]

At this point just make us instantly lose

[clever scroll]

Yknow whay

[robust quartz]

???

[clever scroll]

Add the corespawn praetorian equivalent too

[deft summit]

I think I would rather die than have more Rogue core content in DRG

[clever scroll]

Fuck it

[static mortar]

You can probably argue about the fundamental existence of them but can we at least have a consistent counterable actually support oriented instead of raw damage slop version of the idea

[robust quartz]

I regularly beat corestones without zipline cheese

[clever scroll]

Same

[robust quartz]

JFH and Hellfire do wonders, so is a choke stacked with EMD turrets

[deft summit]

yeah I think the biggest issue with Stalkers is that they kinda don't matter that much and are just more dmg slop

[static mortar]

I think one more corespawn for the sake of adding a ranged enemy to stones is fine but you could also just let crawlers do this themselves.

[deft summit]

But me and you have talked about this like 5 fucking times

[static mortar]

Like half the damage double the shield disrupt duration.

[robust quartz]

Salvo Module is also fantastic vs corespawn

[sterile torrent]

Make it spawn the equivalent of a dreadnought

[grizzled prairie]

the main thing is that corespawn spawn in waves when you shoot at the core stone so what players need to do is shoot the corespawn FIRST and THEN focus on the stone, because otherwise their numbers are just overwhelming.

...but nobody's going to do that because zipline cheese works and it's way easier.

[rain pollen]

Try cluster rockets

[clever scroll]

Make their jump an attack

[sterile torrent]

And replace the regular core spawn with that

[clever scroll]

Yes

Make it worse

[nimble rover]

Make Stalkers always spawn in pairs.

[robust quartz]

Add that fat corespawn equivalent of praetorian with a sonic boom

[clever scroll]

Let em cook

[ashen valve]

y

[robust quartz]

Maybe then something bigger

[static mortar]

It's always the second spy.

[rain pollen]

The 2 spies on Upward

[hybrid girder]

what is a good double barrel build? extra pellets or more ammo?

[fair spindle]

make stalkers spawn 50 at a time

[sterile torrent]

They just spawn faster than I can deal with them

[deft summit]

Rogue Core and DRG have increidbly distinct enemy design and asethetic, I don't want more overlap. I want DRG to continue being "bugs" and Rogue Core can keep the nightmares

[rain pollen]

both

[clever scroll]

They constantly spawn very fast as well yknow

[grizzled prairie]

i do enjoy stalkers because when i hear the noise in the distance i need to stop the "haha walk around and shoot bugs" autopilot to go "which direction did the noise come from? is the stalker on the ceiling or closer to the floor? i should throw some flares over there to make it easier to see." etc

[clever scroll]

They have guard lvl hp

[static mortar]

12233

[hybrid girder]

i got 12233 attm

[rain pollen]

• special powder

[clever scroll]

Then they spawn in groups once you actually shoot the corestone

[grizzled prairie]

stalkers aren't hard but they're a thing you need to pay attention to

[sterile torrent]

This is exactly my line

[nimble rover]

I want at least one more Core Spawn in DRG so that Core Stone has variety.

[sterile torrent]

I find them fun because of that

[static mortar]

Assuming you mean double barrel the overclock and aren't just calling boomstick double barrel.

[hybrid girder]

hmmm what to use as primary for double barrely im currently using SBB drak

[deft summit]

This is fair, but I'm iffy on it

[hybrid girder]

correct

[fair spindle]

tbh the only crossover i want is like a 0.1% chance for a breach in rouge core to be made out of very confused glyphids warped into the cave by a rift

[deft summit]

Holy shit, if only Daily was still here lmfao

[hybrid girder]

eden?

[grizzled prairie]

generally speaking double barrel works really well with all the scout primaries, since double barrel just has the univerally-useful function of being really good at AOE damage on scout

[rain pollen]

I'd go 1X323

[deft summit]

Daily, the SBB one from a while back

Don't worry about it

[static mortar]

Very good pick for one.

[grizzled prairie]

i.e double barrel pairs well with all the scout primaries since scout primaries tend to focus on single-target damage and can struggle with larger swarms

[clever scroll]

The praetorian wondering where the fuck it is

Lmao

[hybrid girder]

we the SBB gang

[pallid shore]

Favorite non OC leadstorm build anyone? I haven't played this game in forever and all the posts I've found are from 4 years ago

[rain pollen]

though double trigger does give you more dps

[fair spindle]

uhh

the 4 year old post are still accurate

[grizzled prairie]

generally speaking you'd just use the same build as you would use for A Little More Oomph!

[hybrid girder]

where did daily go?

[static mortar]

X on tier 2 of boomstick is crazy, assuming the overclock double barrel double trigger literally does nothing, assuming anything else double trigger just wins cause it fits what boomstick is trying to do better and the base rof is awful.

They should really move some of double triggers rof to base tbh.

[hybrid girder]

ive been playing SBB so much its crazy

[pallid shore]

Yeah.. And that would be what again? Just making sure You know what you're talking about of course

[hybrid girder]

i am kinda liking EFS as well

[grizzled prairie]

honestly i find the reload upgrade useful when i'm building non-doublebarrel boomstick for swarm clear

[fair spindle]

isnt the reload speed almost the same on both upgrades bc of some coding bs?

[deft summit]

That's an old thing

[crisp rose]

previously yes, now no

[deft summit]

Like waaaaay old now

[fair spindle]

oh they patched it

nice

[static mortar]

Double Trigger still kinda falls into better reload speed too tbh since getting the shots out way faster is basically better reload speed even if the reload speed mod isn't literally worse for sustain anymore.

[crisp rose]

hi aubrey

[static mortar]

It's not bad to take it though just worse than double trigger.

[sterile torrent]

I got so used to putting born ready on every build I for long time had it on a Scout with plasma and shotgun and was the most useless thing ever

[deft summit]

Flare Gun:

[grizzled prairie]

i don't have every upgrade for every weapon memorized but iirc it's...

• tier 1: rate of fire
• tier 2: either damage or ammo, i prefer ammo personally but both are good
• tier 3: variable chamber pressure (but the faster spinup is also good if you wanna be more mobile)
• tier 4: i forget
• tier 5: hot bullets (but i personally like cold as the grave, too

also i might have tiers 3 and 4 swapped here

shrug

[deft summit]

Dmg is better basically always over ammo

Dmg = ammo eco

[sterile torrent]

I'm of those maniacs who press R 10 hundred times

[clever scroll]

Accuracy, dmg, blowthrough, +15% dmg, hot bullets

[sterile torrent]

So that is always loaded

My actual weapons in combat well

[clever scroll]

I believe in numbers that's 32313

[fair spindle]

fun fact

a double dmg mod engis smg has more total dmg than a double ammo one

[grizzled prairie]

it's not a hard rule because for some guns you get so much more ammo than damage that it's actually more total damage to take the ammo upgrade. also it affords you the ability to miss a few shots here and there

[deft summit]

Yeah I just run Born Ready on every build

[grizzled prairie]

right, tier 3 is blowthrough

[sterile torrent]

One takes a second to reload and the other doesn't need it

[wooden whale]

use born ready when using cryo and epc

[static mortar]

It's very much useful here for shotgun actually.

[clever scroll]

I never do now

[deft summit]

Nothing is a hard rule, but generally dmg is better for ammo eco and the added DPS. But on LS, dmg is realyl the way to go. Obviously generic disclaimer to run whatever you find fun yada yda

[static mortar]

Being able to instantly swap off boomstick and swap back to a loaded boomstick is crazy value.

[clever scroll]

More useless perk variety

[deft summit]

Yay!

You can now equip It's a Bug Thing

[clever scroll]

Nah, strong arm

[grizzled prairie]

on LS it's a question of +10% damage or +33% ammo, and the latter is useful if you're not just building for pure big numbers

[clever scroll]

Trust

[sterile torrent]

In this build the shotgun reloads in a second so in practice I really never waited 5 for the reload so it just had barely any use

[clever scroll]

It'd be funny if that buffed your pickaxe n power attack dmg too

[sterile torrent]

It was a building with powder and

Don't remember the plasma oc

[static mortar]

A second saved constantly throughout the mission.

[grizzled prairie]

like, extra ammo on LS is better for sustainability during swarms; i find that your secondary can usually fill the job of DPS magdumping, and even the main gun itself is so strong that it's not like you lose much by taking the ammo upgrade anyway

[sterile torrent]

But yeah the shotgun was constantly at my hands

[clever scroll]

The only real time you take born ready is gunner and breach cutter engi

[deft summit]

Where did you get these numbers?

[static mortar]

You never realize how insane born ready is until you actually think about it, sure it's one second, like 60 times a mission.

[ashen valve]

anyone have a sludge pump + wave cooker build that doesn’t use gamma overclock

[static mortar]

Where you can do ANYTHING but reload.

[sterile torrent]

A whole minute

[rain pollen]

uuuh

[grizzled prairie]

LS base damage is 10, base ammo is 2,400. tier 2 upgrades are +1 damage or +600 ammo

[deft summit]

+2 dmg

And +600 ammo onto 2400 isn't 33%?

[static mortar]

A second more doing the objective, a second more using your primary, a second that prevented you from dying.

[sterile torrent]

I believe gunner is the only class where I use it

[clever scroll]

Isnt it 5s?

[deft summit]

It's 25%

[rain pollen]

im afraid you might wanna swap out your wave cooker for this one

or just use BN

[clever scroll]

Coilgun and autocannon

[deft summit]

So you get 5% extra total damage but 20% less DPS

[grizzled prairie]

bad at math

[static mortar]

And still next to shit like thorns

It's not like born ready has harsh competition either.

[static mortar]

One second reloading the gun.

Instead of doing ANYTHING else for 5s.

[deft summit]

Nah Born Ready has to compete with Vet Depo 😭

[grizzled prairie]

still. i think the extra ammo is a good option to take if you're building the LS to fight swarms moreso than just pure magdumping HVTs

because the amount of bullets it's going to take to kill a grunt is going to be basically the same iirc

[sterile torrent]

Was the name of the perk that lets you carry more shit

That one is cool

[grizzled prairie]

deep pockets

[static mortar]

Damage is just objectively better on leadstorm except for burning hell and rotary where you can take either.

20% more dps AND ammo versus 25% more ammo, it's extremely clear who wins.

[deft summit]

This isn't correct, you're going to be using above 20% less

LS isn't like M1K where you have major overkill anyway

[clever scroll]

I mean, I'd rather self reload if it's under 2.5s, rather than switching back in 5s< and born ready not activating

[static mortar]

Leadstorm has near zero overkilling issues on anything including grunts so damage is still a lot of that value in less bullets spent.

[sterile torrent]

Funnily enough for a time I did have this pair with it lol

I just got born ready printed in my mind about 70% of my builds just didn't need it at all

[clever scroll]

Born ready making me not reload has caused me more deaths than manual reloads

[rain pollen]

I'd go, 1222X on sludge with SB

[static mortar]

And dying cause you're not using your primary, and not building a pipe, and not reviving somebody, and not mining nitra, and and and.

Born Ready is INSANE value in letting you do literally ANYTHING but reload so often.

[rain pollen]

For the wave cooker, you might wanna ask someone else, because i dont use BN

[clever scroll]

Brother I've used it before

Still do on 2 specific builds

[static mortar]

Of course sometimes you do manual reload cause you just want to shoot coilgun again but born ready is insanely good.

[grizzled prairie]

born ready is easily the best perk in the game, which is why i don't typically use it, because i don't want to lean on it as a crutch too hard

[clever scroll]

I just don't need it on normal haz 5 or even haz 5+

[static mortar]

Born ready is BY FAR the 2nd best passive it's not even a contest, might even beat resupplier on some builds.

If you reload born ready is great value at minimum.

(So not cryo driller of course)

[grizzled prairie]

i'd say born ready is better than resupplier by a mile; resupplier is nice utility but it generally only becomes relevant specifically when resupplying during a big fight, wheras born ready is relevant in every fight you take

[sterile torrent]

This all sounds amazing on paper but as said never really got too much value out of it

[clever scroll]

Just sounds like META slave nonsense to me

I used it, it was good

[static mortar]

It's relevant for health too tbf, going from like a half heal to a full heal.

[clever scroll]

But I realized I didn't need it

[static mortar]

You don't need any perks.

[hoary flare]

i dont know about you but at least when i play there's enough downtime between fights to where i dont think ive ever felt the need to spend an entire perk slot on scraping individual seconds off of my total time spent reloading

[sterile torrent]

I hope you do amazing things with the extra whole minute but slowing down for a second to reload the shotgun has not affected my gameplay in the slightest so

[grizzled prairie]

yeah but that's assuming you're under half health to begin with. like resupplier is good but born ready just does so much for you

[static mortar]

You don't even need your guns if you're willing enough

It really does yeah.

It also just feels great to have and play around.

[hoary flare]

how hyper-optimized do you have to play where those few seconds REALLY make the difference

[grizzled prairie]

it's not about the time BETWEEN fights, it's about being able to just quickly switch to your secondary to shoot every now and then DURING a fight without ever worrying about reloading it

[clever scroll]

Resupplier allows for resuppling and reviving in IW's full invincibility window

[static mortar]

I love instant swapping off pgl, coilgun, boomstick, breach, etc to go back to combat.

[static mortar]

When it happens like 150 times a mission

[hoary flare]

i suppose but that feels extremely weapon specific

[sterile torrent]

Precisely Breach Cutter which I constantly mentioned for this is a weapon I fucking hate haha

I have two loadouts with it but never use them

[static mortar]

When those seconds can be used to shoot the other gun and stun, fear, kill, slow, etc.

[sterile torrent]

Is not satisfactory to me

[hoary flare]

how the fuck

[static mortar]

Born Ready is constant value.

[hoary flare]

what are you doing to spend so much time reloading

[grizzled prairie]

it's more relevant for some weapons than others but it's something essentially every class benefits from to some extent (though driller the least since half his weapons don't reload at all)

[clever scroll]

Just don't use 80% of the weapons in this game for a full 5s to have born ready kick in

[static mortar]

Not reloading, cause I don't have to with born ready.

(You sometimes still do manual reload if you just want another shot of that gun like another coilgun shot but born ready is constant value)

[hoary flare]

well no shit every perk is useful to "some" extent

[clever scroll]

All it ever did for me beyond some QoL was reloading my support/traversal tools

[hallow torrent]

second wind is useful to no extent

[static mortar]

QOL meanwhile it saves your life by having the stun gun ready to go at anytime and improving your pacing.

[clever scroll]

True

[hoary flare]

tf is second wind

[robust quartz]

For me it feels important every fight

Juggling two weapons every now and then and keeping them for 5 seconds means I never need to reload and never even stop to think if my weapon is unready at all

[static mortar]

Calling born ready QOL is like calling Dash a crutch, you're missing the deeper value.

[hallow torrent]

exactly

[grizzled prairie]

mostly the benefit of born ready is it entirely erases those moments where you're being swarmed, you pull out something like the breach cutter or the crossbow or the coilgun, and oops! no ammo! you're gonna die!

[hoary flare]

i mean yeah i can think of some times where ive fallen off a cliff only to realize i didnt reload my platforms

[clever scroll]

I dunno man, just fucked me over more than it has helped with me thinking my guns were reloaded

[hoary flare]

however

[static mortar]

Heading back to the drop pod especially on escort, still dogshit though

[celest haven]

Fym however

[hoary flare]

that's literally a skill issue

[grizzled prairie]

it just affords you more offensive power because you don't need to stop shooting

[clever scroll]

I'm surrounded by sweats

[hoary flare]

just like... stop forgetting shit

[clever scroll]

[static mortar]

There's a redacted that puts a pop up on screen if you need help with that.

[hoary flare]

me too

[celest haven]

Why do people put quotes in their bio

[robust quartz]

The value of born ready is you almost never drop off the fight to reload, you merely continue the onslaught with other weapons

[static mortar]

There's also the existing voiceline but that's easier to miss.

[clever scroll]

Audio cue works fine

[grizzled prairie]

again, i don't use born ready because it's so good. i don't want to rely on it so hard that i can't play without it

[clever scroll]

Legit says it

Just hasn't helped

[static mortar]

Otherwise just get used to born ready.

The feeling of when its been long enough.

[clever scroll]

Bah, 200 hrs later and never did

[static mortar]

Of course fun over function though.

I very much use what's fun over what's meta I'm just a nerd who likes to talk about meta.

[clever scroll]

Especially during my low fps days

[hoary flare]

you gotta put SOMETHING there

[hoary flare]

^ mf who has nothing there

[grizzled prairie]

you can leave it blank actually

[static mortar]

Or the objective, or the reviving, or the mining.

[robust quartz]

I sometimes still catch myself pulling unreloaded weapon too early on BR, but most of the time I got subconsciously used to how long it takes

[hoary flare]

boring, bland, pedestrian, what's even the point then

[deft summit]

Because I wanted the people in DRG main to know my thoughts on DRG and skill level

[clever scroll]

The gun BR fucked me over most on was autocannon

[grizzled prairie]

yeah that's another thing with born ready. spend 5 seconds mining and your guns are all reloaded because the pickaxe counts as its own weapon

[clever scroll]

Same reload time

But just a smidge too early

[hoary flare]

switching to your side pick is faster than reloading

[grizzled prairie]

it'd probably help to pair it with something like the BRT that you might reasonably have out for longer than 5 seconds

[clever scroll]

Unfortunately this doesn't work with anim cancel

[celest haven]

Btw, high velocity rounds changing the velocity of mortar rounds is a suggestion that would improve the tree for mortar rounds but has no basis in the way the rest of the game's logic is done

[clever scroll]

I'd have coilgun out for 5s

[hoary flare]

what are mortar rounds

[clever scroll]

2 reloads or

1 shot, reload, shoot again

[celest haven]

A mod that has a unique effect for an oc is not something I can think of a precedent for

[grizzled prairie]

coilgun i generally find i just shoot once before switching back to my primary

[clever scroll]

Then autocannon

[grizzled prairie]

ditto for the bulldog but that's generally one clip instead of one shot

[clever scroll]

I use mole often so that's prob why

[random delta]

Drg bible quotes to sleep to

[clever scroll]

Habit

[grizzled prairie]

BRT i find is good for pairing with born ready on your primary since you can use it like a pseudo-SMG for 5 seconds

[fallow maple]

Repellent changes how you play mcao

[grizzled prairie]

though if you build the BRT for just dumping into weakpoints with maximum damage that's not as likely

[celest haven]

This isn't the same

[fallow maple]

Maybe I misunderstand

[deft summit]

The proposed change would directly affect the OC

[hoary flare]

brt?

[fallow maple]

I think damage mods impact scorching tide

[grizzled prairie]

gunner's bust-fire-pistol secondary

[robust quartz]

Imagine if Born Ready was replaced with an active perk with passive effect having 30s delay to reload all as QoL and an active effect of double tap R to rush a lightning fast reload that also insta loads all holstered weapons every 4 min

[celest haven]

Been thinking about this one too

It's true, but what does the damage mod actually do on paper

[fallow maple]

Damage

[deft summit]

Increased stream dmg

Like that's it

[hoary flare]

my fault ive only played engi and a side order of scout

[grizzled prairie]

too many moving parts for my taste. probably more "balanced" but it wouldn't be as fun to use.

[hybrid girder]

scout best

[deft summit]

Is the best example of this not just Crystal Nucleation?

It interacts with every goddamn mod

[celest haven]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm............

Yeah idk

[deft summit]

Tbh, I think it's a good thing

[celest haven]

I could be on the wrong side of the fence here

[uncut lake]

||||

[deft summit]

Gimmicks not interacting with mods is boring imo

[hoary flare]

i would imagine the damage mod might, potentially, increase the damage

[celest haven]

Bro shut up

[deft summit]

Truth nuke

[hoary flare]

could be wrong tho

[static mortar]

That's why you can also swap off the weapons when doing objective mining stuff, if the cancel simply brings out shield generator everything still works in 5s.

[random delta]

do you wanna play

[fallow maple]

Radius increases fatboy radius

Which

Honestly

[grizzled prairie]

the point is more "direct damage on the flamethrower is basically useless to build for since 95% of your damage comes from the fire DOT"

[fallow maple]

I wouldn't expect

[hoary flare]

oh its a flamethrower

[deft summit]

Really?

[celest haven]

Sry made plans with a friend

[random delta]

rip

[clever scroll]

I'm aware

[deft summit]

Fat Boy is kinda just big explosion with new effects

[hoary flare]

scout goes hard but i feel naked without my sentry guns and platforms

[clever scroll]

It is what I did when I used BR

[hybrid girder]

i just am having too much fun playing scout to look at any other class

[deft summit]

Me and Driller

[hoary flare]

bad phrasing, more i feel like ive had my left hand cut off

[fallow maple]

I kinda expect internally for it to just spawn a fatboy explosion at the det position like tcf carve not interacting with anything

[deft summit]

I'm lying, I don't ever play the same class too long

[deft summit]

Hmmmm

[clever scroll]

A very insignificant dmg boost

[deft summit]

Yeah that's fair

Especially given how everything else works in this game

[hybrid girder]

ima play some path of exile 2 and get ready for the 29th woop

[hoary flare]

like yeah i can probably still function but every time i reach for something it feels wrong

[clever scroll]

Goes from like 680-690 dmg total including the fire DoT to like 730 dmg total

[hybrid girder]

man my scout is getting to platinum while rest is sitting bronze

[robust quartz]

I mean it's like
Passive is plain QoL

Active is like, oh no, my weapons are all depleted - I tap r twice and after a second all my weapons are ready to shoot

[deft summit]

In the entire gun????????????

[grizzled prairie]

i find that whenever i switch to another class after playing another for a while i have envy for whatever tools the last class i was playing had. "i wish i had platforms". "i wish i had the drills". "i wish i had the breach cutter". "i wish that i had pheremone bolts". "i wish i had a cluster grenade".

[grizzled prairie]

yeah, like i said, too many moving parts

[hoary flare]

i main engineer because the sentry gun is better at the game than i am

[clever scroll]

Scorching tide

[deft summit]

That says a lot given how bad the Turrets are haha

[deft summit]

Ok so per STIde shot

[grizzled prairie]

i assume they're playing at lower hazards, where the turrets actually do just kill bugs on their own

[hoary flare]

this is also very true

[hoary flare]

im still pretty new, haz 3-4 is where im most comfortable

ive got like 30 hours?

[grizzled prairie]

yeah that's fair. hazard 5 i think is mostly balanced for when you have all the weapon upgrades already

iirc hazard 4 is the "baseline" difficulty the devs balance the game for

[hoary flare]

hazard 5 seems too stressful to be fun for me

[clever scroll]

🥀

[static mortar]

Born Ready honestly doesn't need any touching we just need more passive perks that are actually worth considering over it.

[hoary flare]

haz 4 already frays my ammo to the limit

[grizzled prairie]

it's honestly not that bad once you have all the weapon upgrades

mostly it's just hazard 4 but you take more damage

[hoary flare]

well i have all the mods for engi but the game fucking hates me and i cant get any engi cores

[grizzled prairie]

that's really the main difference i'd noticed when i first went from haz 4 to haz 5

[hoary flare]

like at all

[random delta]

Game sense means more than OCs in haz 5

[static mortar]

More auto reloading in mods trees and ocs would also be nice, it's insane auto reload and speed boost are exclusive to scout and damage resist to gunner, give me resist well charging sludge, put auto reload in pgls tier 5.

Can also make the standard for them 3s to beat born ready's 5.

[grizzled prairie]

yeah but playing hazard 5 without fully upgraded weapons is just a bad time

[hoary flare]

out of 24 cores 4 of them have been engi and 2 of them were cosmetics that look like shit

[random delta]

Yeah thats why i meant specifically OCS

[clever scroll]

Resupplier, Born Ready, Vampire, Dash/IW/Field Medic and never change anything again

That's the perk system

[hoary flare]

i have 10 scout cores i cant even use them my scout is lvl 16

[random delta]

You def want up to Tier 5 but you dont need OCs for Haz 5 as much as you need game sense

[clever scroll]

So stale

[grizzled prairie]

i'm including overclocks here. i wouldn't want to use the stubby on haz 5 if i had no overclocks other than well-oiled machine, yknow

[clever scroll]

This is so ironic

[static mortar]

Vampire is on par with elemental insul and sweet tooth, cryo driller swaps out born ready, SBB scout takes shield link.

Still not much though, the system sucks.

[clever scroll]

The stubby is engineer's best primary without overclocks

Apparently

[static mortar]

All classes also hard take dash except scout where it is a 3 way tie.

[grizzled prairie]

the stubby itself isn't important to the example, Well Oiled Machine is just the first kind of nothing overclock i could think of

[hoary flare]

some men drown while others die of thirst

[static mortar]

This would actually be a really good weapon still just worse than refire.

[true arch]

yeah cause instead of all these choices, you're really only left with like 2-3 that's basically a main choice and the rest is just a preference thing

[clever scroll]

Is that the +5 mag one with firerate or

[random delta]

I like field medic

[grizzled prairie]

oh ,wait, i was confusing it with superslim rounds

[static mortar]

The issue with well oiled is that refire exists more than it does nothing.

[grizzled prairie]

the +5 mag size one

[hoary flare]

stubby does no fucking damage tho

[static mortar]

Like yeah super-slim.

[deft summit]

BORN READY FIX

Make it a quick time event

[hoary flare]

neither does warthog

[random delta]

but i be dashing with no dash

[static mortar]

Take the damage mods.

[clever scroll]

Peak overclock

[grizzled prairie]

stubby does incredible damage

[clever scroll]

All dmg mods

[true arch]

not really? take the damage mods and you can still do decent damage on it

[hoary flare]

i did its not helping

[clever scroll]

Your ammo is totally fine

[hoary flare]

i feel like ive got a peashooter

[static mortar]

Also take the rof mod.

[true arch]

take the accuracy and aim for weakspots

don't take the arc

electric arc

[static mortar]

Unequip light-weight rounds

[grizzled prairie]

yeah in general your damage is going to feel bad in this game if you're not hitting bugs' weak points

[clever scroll]

But my +5 ammo

[hoary flare]

dont even have that

[clever scroll]

That I can kill 2.5 swarmers with

Oh wait

[hoary flare]

smart rifle is the only primary that feels like it actually kills things sometimes on a good day

[clever scroll]

Wrong oc lol

[true arch]

the power of m1000 killing basically most things in one shot is so nice (a bit random but i just wanted to gush about the gun)

[clever scroll]

LWR gives you so much ammo you legit can just mag dump half the time

[hoary flare]

at the cost of sucking down bullets harder than i suck down oily oafs

[clever scroll]

Because if you play normally you are not running out of ammo

[true arch]

body shot web spinners, one shot grunts at range so long as you hit their weakspot (if not you can just do a Focus shot)

[grizzled prairie]

engi primaries tend to just struggle with ammo in general yeah

[true arch]

actually at base, i'd say stubby is better than lok1

[grizzled prairie]

ammo efficiency is engineer's main weakness

[true arch]

base as in with t5 mods just no overclocks

[static mortar]

Lok is the engi primary with no dps what do you mean

Except SMRT Trigger and EXE (ECR also good but not for the dps) but if we're talking overclocks EM Refire and Alloy have some of the highest dps in the game.

[clever scroll]

It statistically is

[hoary flare]

its not always feasable when they come at you in waves

[static mortar]

Even warthog is.

[hoary flare]

and i got shaky hands

[true arch]

that's just something you kinda learn to improve as you play a bit more

[hoary flare]

i dont have overclocks

near exclusively

[grizzled prairie]

i find the lok's damage is good (against single targets anyway) but it just runs out of ammo too fast to be useful against anything

[static mortar]

Then yeah lok is abysmal dogshit and stubby is actually pretty good.

[clever scroll]

You'll learn to do it subconsciously or unconsciously at some point

[grizzled prairie]

and yeah the lok is probably the most overclock-dependent weapon in the game

[true arch]

yes its less feasible when everything is coming but you can use a bit of movement to slow down the rush (or set up for stun/kill zones)

[static mortar]

Base lok just does also have bad dps

With locking on taken into account of course.

[clever scroll]

You did not just say that

[grizzled prairie]

in the sense that the base weapon is pretty bad but it has like two overclocks that are incredible

[hoary flare]

the only overclock i have is rj grenades but then im basically just throwing my hands up in the air and accepting that im never dealing any damage ever

[true arch]

Drak i feel like would be overclock dependent compared to lok1

[hoary flare]

rj hits like a water balloon

[static mortar]

It's true.

[clever scroll]

Not when pgl and drak exist

[hoary flare]

smg hits like a nerf gun

[grizzled prairie]

i would pick any no-overclock weapon over no-overclock lok

PGL and drak included

[hoary flare]

im struggling against lone praetorians

[static mortar]

Lok is insanely bad base but then SMRT Trigger, EXE, and ECR exist.

Drak and pgl is also up there though.

[true arch]

cause lok1 can still function quite well even at base (just doesn't have enough ammo to justify its uses)

[hoary flare]

meanwhile the swarm is coming

[grizzled prairie]

you just dump the entire magazine into its butt

[static mortar]

Both base drak and lok struggle to do any of what they want to but at least drak has the elec mod.

[true arch]

that's cause they are tanky, if you have power attacks, i tend to use them to lower their hp a bit then mag dump

[clever scroll]

Rj250 fire pgl for wave clear

[grizzled prairie]

i find the stubby is one of the best praetorian-killers in the game

[hoary flare]

its at half health now and i have to reload

[clever scroll]

Stubby to shoot big bug asses

Or heads

[static mortar]

(Or damage, or responsiveness)

[hoary flare]

i wack them if i can but thats not a given

[true arch]

use rj250 with fire (it basically means you get grunt clear with additional ammo as well as mobility alternative)

[clever scroll]

Or

[true arch]

don't use it as a single target

[clever scroll]

You can run breach cutter

[static mortar]

Base lok is just outright bad, bad dps, bad ammo, bad responsiveness, all it has is a decent AB value and range.

[clever scroll]

Or shard defractor

[true arch]

breach cutter would def be a better alternative but rj250 is perfectly valid

[clever scroll]

I'm aware

[tall shard]

Engineer just has so many choices

[grizzled prairie]

even with overclocks i don't like using it, except the explosive-rounds overclock since you just spam 3-shot bursts at things

[static mortar]

Notably breach can't rocket jump.

[clever scroll]

Just saying this in case they do seriously struggle

[tall shard]

Big fan of all 3 secondaries and 2/3 primaries

[hoary flare]

idk ive managed to use it as a decentish grunt sweeper which is more than i ever got out of the other two

[true arch]

at least in pgl overclocks, imo its rj250 or fat boy (hyper prop if you really feel like something shouldn't exist but even then you're better off using shard dif/breach cutter)

[static mortar]

RJ and Fat Boy are actually quite prevalent as options if you know how to use them.

[hoary flare]

what the fuck are they putting in the warthog because its not bullets

[true arch]

the rocket jump is so neat

[hoary flare]

it shoots fucking bean bags

[static mortar]

And also insanely good if you're good at it.

[hoary flare]

abysmal dogshit

[true arch]

i basically can race the scout at times (so long as there's an open space

[tall shard]

Strongly advise the pump action overclock, makes it feel like a real gun

[true arch]

yeah warthog is a bit weak

[hoary flare]

i run laser as my secondary because otherwise anything higher than basic grunts is genuinely untouchable

[shy cape]

Wait whuh day is it

[true arch]

if i were to rely on base level weapons without overclocks it'd be stubby and breach cutter

Monday

[deft summit]

Tuesday

[hoary flare]

that's a great idea i would love to do that

[grizzled prairie]

warthog can hold its own but you need to get good at hitting grunts' weakpoints (their faces) at close enough range to one-shot them

[hoary flare]

unfortunately i have FUCKING NOTHING

[tall shard]

The oc grind is unfun

[deft summit]

That is correct

[hoary flare]

I AM STARVING ON THE STREETS

[shy cape]

Specific number perchance ^^"

[true arch]

run stubby and breach cutter

[tall shard]

Hoping rc doesnt have any fuckass mechanics like that, doesnt sound like it does

[grizzled prairie]

the actual grind isn't the problem so much as just how random it is

[deft summit]

Wait what are we talking about? The day of Rogue Core?

[true arch]

its at least better than warthog/lok1 without overclocks

[deft summit]

That's coming out in 1 day and like 19 hours

[shy cape]

Uhhhh ye
I was gonna say "Rouge Core tomorrow" unless is not tomorrow yet lol

[deft summit]

Yeah not yet haha

[hoary flare]

breach cutter fucks but the ammo is so bad it hurts to use

[deft summit]

You can say that in about 19 hours though

[hoary flare]

its like im going 5k in debt every time i fire

[shy cape]

Aight bet

[tall shard]

Its the combo, the random would be fine if you got more than like 5 a week and the 5 a week would be fine if you could fuckin choose

[deft summit]

Everything is better than base Lok-1

[grizzled prairie]

ammo is engi's main weakness in general on pretty much every weapon

[deft summit]

They both fucking suck

[true arch]

1X123 for Stubby
X112(2/3) for breach cutter
Yeah ammo is just gone for Engi

its never enough for engi

[deft summit]

I can't complain about the OC system two days in a row though

[hoary flare]

x?

[static mortar]

Got it, taking recoil mod on stubby.

[deft summit]

Any option on tier

[true arch]

X just means you take any modifications that you prefer on that tier

[hoary flare]

i can

[tall shard]

X usually means the tier doesnt matter

[bleak whale]

the only weapon engie has that's ammo effecient is the warthog

and that's because it just has so much ammo lol

[hoary flare]

stop giving me fucking driller cores im tired of seeing it

[clever scroll]

What

[grizzled prairie]

i mean the idea of "you need to slowly unlock the endgame weapon upgrades via weekly assignments and whatnot" is fine, the problem is just that you also are often getting overclocks that are bad and/or that you don't care about

[static mortar]

MCAO and Discharge but those are overclocks.

[clever scroll]

Breach cutter

Has low ammo?

[true arch]

i wouldn't say it doesn't matter, it just doesn't have a particularly decisive upgrade that is objectively better

[bleak whale]

breach cutter has enough ammo

[clever scroll]

I'm wheezing

[tall shard]

For a while i ran the full auto mini shells warthog and it was kind of enjoyable to mag dump everything and not run out of ammo

[bleak whale]

just use it sparingly

which

[true arch]

try to line up enemies when you fire them

[grizzled prairie]

yeah breach cutter is mostly something you use when you have like 5+ bugs coming at you in a straight line

[bleak whale]

why aren't you using the cutter sparingly

[clever scroll]

Breach cutter at BASE can have more ammo than full ammo mods RJ250

[bleak whale]

its a wave clear gun

lol

[clever scroll]

Lmfao

[true arch]

basically get more value for your buck cause they can get a lot of enemies in a single shot

[static mortar]

Rof and mag are better than recoil in stubby tier 2 100%, except for alloy then the tier is an X.

[deft summit]

I disagree with such tedious grinds as the OC one, but yes, it is much worse due to the awful nature of the system being as plagued by RNG and shit options as it is

[hoary flare]

no way. next you're gonna tell me hitting enemy weakpoints does more damage or something crazy like that

[tall shard]

My go-to engi build now is pump action warthog and laser cutter with clean oc

[deft summit]

Lmfao

[hoary flare]

like yeah no shit try to pierce enemies with the piercing weapon

[true arch]

hey, you never know? i watched like so many greenbeards using up their entire supply on 2-3 grunts

[deft summit]

I be doing that

This gun has one million ammo, Idc

[clever scroll]

This

[deft summit]

I'll shoot a Breach shot at a single Grunt

Hell, I'll shoot 3 Breach shots at a single Grunt

Ammo isn't real

Take a Resup

[tall shard]

I be using fat man on loot bugs sometimes, ammo is really not an issue in this game 90% of the time

[clever scroll]

Yeah BC has enough ammo to spare for random shots

[grizzled prairie]

the grind isn't really that tedious unless you play nothing but DRG in your spare time. like you can chip away at a few overclocks a week via assignments and deep dives. the RATE at which you get overclocks i don't really have an issue with, it's just the fact that you have very little control wrt getting the ones you'd actually want

[true arch]

i saw a gunner use 4 incendiary grenades on a grunt guard

[hoary flare]

i used to use it on individual praetorians bECAUSE I CANT FUCKIGN KILL THEM

WHY WONT YOU DIE

[true arch]

fair, they are quite tanky

[grizzled prairie]

they have armor everywhere except their face and butt (and the butt takes more damage)

[hoary flare]

im like a child who has to ask for help reaching the countertop

[hoary flare]

thank you yes i have read the miners manual

[clever scroll]

That's good breach cutter usage

[tall shard]

That is the point of a coop game to be fair, those are scouts or drillers job

[clever scroll]

Like 2 shots, then a bit of primary ammo

Ded

Well not good

But decent

[grizzled prairie]

i mean engi is probably the second best at pure single-target damage next to scout?

[true arch]

sometimes i get a bit frustrated and just pickaxe mine the praetorians (you can kite them quite easily if you're up in their face)

[hoary flare]

sometimes they just aint there

[grizzled prairie]

at least with the stubby anyway

[tall shard]

With an oc

[grizzled prairie]

i would say that if engi is third (behind gunner) then it's a close third

[hoary flare]

man overclocks are so good i wish i could have one someday

[tulip venture]

hello

[clever scroll]

EXE or STOS

[deft summit]

I disagree. The fact that the grind takes nearly half a year to complete if you aren't grinding promos is far too drawn out. And then you can play extra and try focus promos for more OCs, but that also takes ages because of how slow levelling is

[clever scroll]

Not accounting for pure dos

Dps*

[deft summit]

There is not reason for the grind to be so horribly long

Same goes for the cosmetic grind

[hoary flare]

oh another driller ammo overclock? my cup truly runneth the fuck over

[tall shard]

Scout is definitely the best at taking a large bug and making it disappear, though it varies by the enemy

[deft summit]

Ehhh Gunner exists

[true arch]

yeah its a bit slow to grind them up since they're limited to get per week (technically unlimited but basically limited cause you aren't gonna grind multiple promotions in quick successions)

[deft summit]

Also Engi Exists with HAA or EMR

Also Driller exists with SBlast

[tall shard]

Scout has embedded detonators, this should not be an argument

[true arch]

m1000 exists

[grizzled prairie]

gunner is a bit worse at pure single-target than scout (just a bit), his advantage is that he's also really good at swarms and has a lot of ammo

[hoary flare]

i could.

jk lol

[deft summit]

Ehhhhh kind of

[grizzled prairie]

i.e gunner is good at everything combat-related; his main weakness is a lack of mobility/utility

[deft summit]

I kind of disagree

[true arch]

that gun (so long as you hit your shots just deletes HVTs)

[deft summit]

Gunner has amazing single target

[tall shard]

Makes nearly every single enemy in the game fucking vanish, have you just not used it?

[hoary flare]

ziplines are so ass what is even the point

[grizzled prairie]

gunner does have amazing singlet-arget but scout has incredible single-target

[deft summit]

I've used it in probably about 100 missions now

[deft summit]

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[true arch]

especially if you bring any cryo alternatives for even greater single target damage

[grizzled prairie]

most bugs cannot attack you at all when on a zipline

[deft summit]

I'm not sure I would agree with this

[tall shard]

Most of scouts kit was designed around it

[deft summit]

What metric are we going off of?

[true arch]

melee enemies are basically just forced to watch you as you ride the zip line

[tall shard]

Time to kill one enemy

[deft summit]

Just raw DPS? Sustain?

[hoary flare]

oh ok so we're just hiding like a fucking leaf lover now?

[grizzled prairie]

mostly "how fast it takes to kill one enemy"

[deft summit]

Ok so TTK

Ok TTK/DPS then

[true arch]

plus, it gives a way for other class to use the zip lines to traverse long caverns

[deft summit]

Well which enemies, actually?

LSTs or HVTs?

[static mortar]

All classes have incredible single target options, the only argument here is that the typical focus of scout weapons are burst single target not that his options for it are better than other options.

[grizzled prairie]

bizzare take. do you think it's leaf lover behavior to shoot bugs from a distance instead of pickaxing every enemy or

[deft summit]

Scout is John HVT Killer, I can agree he handles those better

[hoary flare]

oh man these bugs are weally scawwy let me get grandpa's mobility lift

[hoary flare]

yes

[true arch]

I'd say HVTs since they tend to have a higher priority thus need faster TTK

[grizzled prairie]

well that's what i'm saying yes

[deft summit]

But for LSTs? Nah, Scout isn't winning

Scout is burst dmg for the most part, things like TEF or M1K

[grizzled prairie]

yes that's literally what i said

[deft summit]

He doesn't beat Gunner in single target, he beats Gunner in killing HVTs

[static mortar]

Who is killing an oppressor faster than a cryo axe driller, who is doing more caretaker eye dps than sludge blast, it depends on the single target too.

[grizzled prairie]

if you're fighting a single grunt scout still kills it faster than gunner

[deft summit]

This too

It's all very complex

[grizzled prairie]

but gunner is able to kill like 15 grunts at once and scout can't do that

[tall shard]

And if you are fighting a praetorian, scout does it faster and more reliably

[deft summit]

We aren't ever talking about Grunts when discussing single target dmg?

[deft summit]

Ehhhhhhh not really

[grizzled prairie]

well then why did you make such a point of drawing the distinction between HVTs and LVTs

[static mortar]

Like scout doesn't just win single target he just has a lot of single target options, this is a game with volatile bullets on the gunner class it's not this simple.

[true arch]

i mean kinda? some LSTs are still well within scout's damage (he just needs more specific builds compared to general builds)
such as cryo minelets/bolts with a strong primary (Bom/m1000)
Granted, he needs some set up to delete them but he still does them quite fast

[deft summit]

LVTs? I said LSTs

[static mortar]

Who is killing a anything faster than a platform mole set-up

[grizzled prairie]

i don't know what LST stands for. lone single targets?

[proper pulsar]

Clearly you said BRTs

[deft summit]

Yes, this is true, but I'm looking at it more generally. I don't think Scout is beating out Gunner's ability to kill LSTs overall

[deft summit]

Large single target

[true arch]

fair, yeah generally gunner beats scout

[hoary flare]

guys every class in the game is abysmal dogshit except [insert your main here], this is just objective truth and if you disagree ur bad at the game

[deft summit]

Praes, Menances, Oppressors

[grizzled prairie]

???
those are HVTs

[true arch]

pack it up bois, this is the final decision on the matter

[static mortar]

My already active PBM eating the praet whole:

[tall shard]

I agree, the wave cooker is the only functional weapon in this game

[proper pulsar]

questionable

[grizzled prairie]

more like uhhhhh. cave wooker

[true arch]

not really? i'd argue those are LVTs

Large Value Targets

[deft summit]

Menances are both, but the other two are not HVTs

The other two are not high value

[true arch]

High Value targets refer to something like Septic spreaders (except for menaces since they're both)

[deft summit]

Oppressors especially

Oppressors are bums

[tall shard]

Praetorian are definitely not high value if you can fucking walk

[true arch]

septic spreaders, tri jaws and acid spitters

[hoary flare]

wave cooker more like wave that cooked shit goodby bc its goin in the bin

[hollow fox]

weird way to spell out spreaders

[grizzled prairie]

okay semantics semantics whatever.

the point is: broadly speaking scout kills single bugs (regardless of type) faster than gunner, but gunner is very close and is also way way better at killing larger groups of bugs than scout is. that's all my point is

[static mortar]

Oppressor is a high value target if I'm bunkerin- oh, you froze it and instantly killed it with 2 axes.

[tall shard]

Scout is great at speeding up to a bug and shredding it apart before vanishing back into the depths of the caves he wont light up

[grizzled prairie]

yeah exactly

[manic sierra]

I know this isn’t rogue core chat but I was just wondering if we have any idea on how much the game will cost?

[hoary flare]

bunkering is leaf lover strats real dwarves kite for 15 minutes then fall in a hole and die

[deft summit]

Scout is better at killing HVTs. That's all that needs to be said

[proper pulsar]

Pins in #rogue-core-chat

[grizzled prairie]

raw weapon damage aside scout also just benefits a lot from having way more mobility than gunner. plus scout weapons tend not to have the "spin up" that gunner primaries do

[true arch]

check pins i think there was a discussion on that already

[tall shard]

22 dollars is the popular estimate, also pins

[true arch]

pins in #rogue-core-chat

[manic sierra]

Ah

[proper pulsar]

You're all my snails

[static mortar]

The average scout build typically is single target in pursuit of HVT burst but that's really the only argument, not that scout does single target better just more often are his guns made for it.

[true arch]

TLDR: $22 ish on popular estimates

[dusty vector]

hey guys
how do you use the breach cutter ?
with what overclocks and playstyle

[grizzled prairie]

i mean nothing "needs" to be said but we're having a conversation about what the classes can do so i'm going to say things about what the classes can do

[hoary flare]

20k creds and 1000 of each mineral

[true arch]

light weight cases and spam them when the horde is thick

[hoary flare]

dont ask me about overclocks i will cry

[true arch]

either that or spinning death for great area denial

[manic sierra]

I just bought 5632 oily oafs… no money….

[uncut lake]

what overclocks do you enjoy? :)

[tall shard]

Breach cutter is one of the few guns where iirc all of its ocs are very very usable

[grizzled prairie]

i would say scout at the baseline is built to do single-target stuff and tends to have limited options for multi-target stuff (not no options, but options that are worse and/or more limited than other classes). with driller being the inverse.

[hoary flare]

skill issue get to work miner

[dusty vector]

same, kinda

[dusty vector]

fr?

[hoary flare]

i will tell you when i fucking get one

[tall shard]

There is definitely room for preferences but i dont think any of them are like, bad

[dusty vector]

for some reason i always just use the inferno one

[static mortar]

Yeah

[dusty vector]

return to sender seems pretty complex to me

[grizzled prairie]

gunner has options to do both, though i will say that gunner's idea of "multi target" is different than engineer's or driller's in that gunner tends to do multi-target by just having primaries that kill single targets so fast that they're basically multitarget

[uncut lake]

well you better GET TO WORK then, miner

[dusty vector]

and the most of the times i just kill myself

[true arch]

i find inferno to be a bit iffy cause the bugs that do get set up on fire kinda die immediately anyways in one hit and the ones that don't require more shots

[grizzled prairie]

as opposed to engineer and driller having outright AOE weapons

[dusty vector]

i use it to tresh bigger enemies

[hoary flare]

yes, mission control 😔

[dusty vector]

as there are a lot of enemies that would survive a shot

[tall shard]

*and importantly have very large magazine sizes

[true arch]

fair, but for those type of enemies, you're usually spamming shots anyways so i find more ammo to be more handy

[grizzled prairie]

yeah, this too. this is one of the main things that makes scout weak against large swarms.

[uncut lake]

GO GET THAT ||BREAD||MORKITE

[dusty vector]

like praets, pitjaw,s breeders, broods nexus, any dread, hoolo's lol, and a lot more

[grizzled prairie]

in fact, the drak is probably scout's best primary for dealing with swarms because it effectively has no magazine size, just the heat mechanic

[dusty vector]

fair

[grizzled prairie]

though drak also suffers from poor ammo economy a little, i think

[true arch]

is it worth it to deal fire damage to dreads? when they have a pretty good chunk of resistance from fire?

[dusty vector]

but i want to use both of my weapons

[static mortar]

All for being worse than shooting twice

[true arch]

at least its not really that easy to set them on fire from what i recall unless you're using conductive thermal scout

[hoary flare]

"scrumpyknight, its 3 am, time to unlock another shitty driller core"
"yes mission control"

[dusty vector]

not exactly, just telling which enemies would survive a shot

[true arch]

TEF my main go to for drak aside from CT for eliminations

[dusty vector]

real

[uncut lake]

go unlock fatboy

N O W

[deft summit]

My point is that that's what it comes down to

[uncut lake]

[hoary flare]

im trying ;n;

[grizzled prairie]

well no it comes down to multiple things actually

[true arch]

ah yeah fair enough then

[deft summit]

Ok, Scout is better at HVTs while Gunner wins out at everything else is the basic overview

[dusty vector]

i also have a build with the electricity oc

to tresh armor

[grizzled prairie]

yeah that's the quick summarry

[deft summit]

There is FAR more nuance across build discussion and enemy type and Haz and yada yada

[true arch]

basically yeah

[dusty vector]

its kinda fun unarmoring praets

[deft summit]

But without going into it, that's how it is

[grizzled prairie]

yeah i'm just talking broadly speaking

[true arch]

i like evaporating praets (scorching tide driller my beloved)

[dusty vector]

same

hmm

but for some reason i always run out of fuel

[true arch]

its really funny seeing a group of praets just evaporate with a single hold of "r"

[dusty vector]

even if i dont use too much the ability

[true arch]

hey if you're out of fuel, that just means you burnt up all the bugs

[dusty vector]

the problem comes when theres more bugs than fuel

[true arch]

though if there are bugs still hanging out, that usually means your nitra economy is lacking or you're using your flames for tanky targets/not maximising your flame

you can usually get away with a short burst of flame ot kill a group of grunts (since they walk over them and burn to them)

[dusty vector]

i usualy try to max the ammo with driller

i usually use the ability when time its not on my side

like

[true arch]

yeah that's a pretty good use

[dusty vector]

getting surrounded or having a preat on my face

hold r and begone

[true arch]

then perhaps its nitra economy then

you need to get your nitra faster

so less worry about ammo

what do you use as your secondary?

[dusty vector]

colette

[true arch]

any particualr oc?

[dusty vector]

when i use fire as my primary im usually the first one taking ammo

[dusty vector]

the yellow one for ammo

[true arch]

personally, i tend to use Gamma contamination as just some nice DoT if i'm using CwC

hmm but you kinda already have a wave clear on your primary

[dusty vector]

i like gamma contamination but it hurts a lot when its overheats so fast

[true arch]

my playstyle with that is to tap fire

don't hold down

[dusty vector]

it helps a lot to save primary ammo

[true arch]

you want to tap till they get the gamma and just leave it

[dusty vector]

and i usually use just to termshock

[true arch]

temp shock is not that worth it imo

at least the damage output is not that powerful

[dusty vector]

the thing its that the fire effect its really easy to apply

so i can termshock multiple times

it gets better when there are more enemies around the target

[lunar merlin]

i wanna hug molly.. i think shed be warm...

[dusty vector]

so i can ignite again with the collette

[true arch]

how about considering subata (since there's somewhat a synergy for burning enemies) or my personal recommendation is EPC if you can time the TCF blasts

EPC with persistent plasma is pretty much the main go to since its still good on single target whilst having a crowd clear option

[dusty vector]

i have a lot of hours and still blowing myself with the tcf blasts

[true arch]

yeah it happens, but man is it satisfying to blow up a group of mactera in a single tcf blast

[dusty vector]

fr

i really like the disintegration effect too

[arctic sky]

Large skill reward is really nice.

[dusty vector]

yea

probably the epc have the biggest skill reward

you can do a lot of stuff with the tcf

[true arch]

def works but again you're lacking in single target (which granted can be mitigated by your teammates such as scout) Generally though if you don't have some single target option, you tend to waste your primary/secondary on those tankier targets. Especially since you're not running cryo so you can't just axe everything in one or 2 hits.

[true arch]

fr

That upward angle wall annoying you?

delete it

that bit of nitra that you can't seem to drill to? Boom

that group of grunts coming to maul you? Gone

[dusty vector]

sugar, breaking corestones in this new modificator, minning, etc

yea epc its really useful

[true arch]

even if you blow yourself up, so long as you actually get the enemies close to you. its still worth it since the damage output is still powerful

also i like using epc to take out the hive guards (second phase)

since a proper shot can hit all three weakspots

[true arch]

my only issue is the mining tends to fling the items all over the place but its like minimal since i don't have to waste my drills getting to it

and i do it faster than scout without any prep basically

[dusty vector]

yea

[true arch]

kinda like the loot bugs just simply deciding to explode all their delicious minerals to the rest of the caverns

[dusty vector]

i think i just have too much experiencie on the colette i know when it helps a lot and when it really seems weak

like yea

[true arch]

its not weak

its just like, you have both your weapons on crowd clear

which means you waste ammo on the single target ones

collete is def strong but i prefer to pair it when i have a single target based primary (like sludge blast)

[dusty vector]

uh

[true arch]

i mean it does pale in comparison to persistent plasma EPC (with TCF)

[dusty vector]

i tried a built like that once

when my only cc was my epc i got myself exploting my faces a lot of times

[true arch]

actually, prob better to pair it with volatile impact mixture rather than sludge blast but both works ig

[true arch]

its a learning experience,

[dusty vector]

i think the only reason i dont use the volatile impact its because my pc usually dies when i see the puddles explode

its really fun to use when theres a teammate with fire

but the animation of the explosions are really detailed

[dusty vector]

talking about it, i think that was the reason of why i built it that way, when i see no engi or driller on the team i usually use that build to clear the hoarde for the team

igniting the enemies and spreading the effect of the fire clears the hoardes fast and clean

the most of the time, yea, i usually need to get close to bigger targets to kill them

oh

[true arch]

true that

[dusty vector]

and another thing i like about epc its that goo bombers are no longer a problem and more like a flying target

[true arch]

lots of details , i wish i had a better laptop/pc to play it on