Unity Pricing Changes - MEGATHREAD

[wide hound]

In fact, I believe a lot of people are like that.

[subtle grotto]

I beg to differ

[vernal mural]

they are

[balmy osprey]

#1151519526136066088 message

[kind arch]

Like the company making moves with a disregard to their users. Making the users worse off etc etc
So think unity or ea or something

[subtle grotto]

My evidence is the majority of people in this thread, and all the people on twitter

[wide hound]

I hate ea, and their greedy schemes, but I'll still buy a game from them if it's good and fun.

[vernal mural]

practically every electronic device has parts created or sourced, directly or indirectly, by child labor, slavery, or other inhumane conditions. Yet still most people use electronic devices

[wide hound]

💀

[kind arch]

I mean we dont have a choice in that regard. People rely on electronics

[vernal mural]

that's a choice

[subtle grotto]

It's not a choice

[vernal mural]

it is

[glad narwhal]

Where?

[subtle grotto]

No, it's really not

[glad narwhal]

And how?

[kind arch]

Maybe people can choose to not buy from a certain brand or company tho. That works. But no one can just choose to use nothing

[vernal mural]

it is. You can choose not to and suffer the consequences

it's more practical to endorse child labor and slavery than to live without tech

[wide hound]

I mean u can choose to live in the country side away from electronics (I think this is what he means)

[subtle grotto]

It's literally impossible to function as an adult without electronic devices in this day and age

You need the internet, you need a phone, you need email

It is not a cohice

[vernal mural]

still a choice

[balmy osprey]

Not really a choice. But I get what ur saying. But that doesn't really have anything to do with what yasa is saying

[vernal mural]

you choose to participate in society in this way

[subtle grotto]

Okay yes you're right it's a choice between use electronics or literally die because you can't survive

[vernal mural]

yep

correct

[balmy osprey]

You can't not participate in society

[inland bridge]

😂

[kind arch]

If your job uses a brand you dont like you cant just choose not to use it. Because its your job
Its notna choice

[subtle grotto]

Are you saying I had a choice in where I was born?

[inland bridge]

I don't think there's any point in being super technical here

[wide hound]

I mean do you use steam?

[kind arch]

This conversation is so stupid

[glad narwhal]

Wtf does steam do here?

[subtle grotto]

Only because people are giving stupid arguments

[wide hound]

U use steam?

Steam done some questionable things in the past too. 🤔

[vernal mural]

I'm saying it's hypocritical to flame someone for sticking with unity when the only people suffering are developers who are in a pretty decent position, while endorsing companies with their products that use slavery and child labor to create what you use

[glad narwhal]

What's the matter? Wtf is Steam doing in a child labor vs electronics conversation

Or something like this

[wide hound]

There's the "antitrust" lawsuit that happened.

And this isn't a child labor vs electronics convo

[glad narwhal]

Since you're here I guess you're ok as well with the child labor

[wide hound]

It's about caring bout the company that makes the products

[subtle grotto]

the only people suffering are developers who are in a pretty decent position
This is just demonstrably false, countless people have spoken up about it and shown that this move can make them bankrupt. But also, even if that were true, why should it not matter? Do you not care about other game studios?

[wide hound]

and buying the product for what it is

[vernal mural]

I'm not ok with it but I accept that it is the reality we live in

[subtle grotto]

Unity isn't a "reality we live in"

You're not gonna die or become homeless because you stop using a particular game engine

You're trying to compare apples and oranges a knife

[wide hound]

I mean u could become homeless.

[subtle grotto]

[wide hound]

Let's say you're an indie dev right, and u use an engine, but then u wanna switch

then u gotta spend a couple weeks learning that engine

and u got no money

so it is a possibility

[subtle grotto]

A couple of weeks to learn an engine, compared to months/years making a game?

[inland bridge]

You're not gonna suddenly switch engines if it's not financially viable for your current goals

[subtle grotto]

If you aren't financially prepared for the months/years of development, you're already doing something wrong

[queen lagoon]

let's go, arguments

[wide hound]

That's learning a new engine and then also working on a game after that*

[glad narwhal]

It's called adapting? When covid came out did someone asked you "Sir would you like to stay home?" No, you were told to stay home and that's it, if you adapt that's great for you if not not

[subtle grotto]

Oh no a couple weeks, the horror

[vernal mural]

game studios come and go, businesses always have risks. Skilled devs will be able to work on pretty much anything so it's pretty much a non-issue in the grand scheme of things

[wide hound]

People who just started 😱

[vernal mural]

gaming is a luxury, as is being able to work on your own games

[wide hound]

I already stay at home. covid made no difference btw.

[subtle grotto]

If your game takes a year to make, a week or two is like 1-3% of total development time. And for even longer long-term projects, that percentage drops

[inland bridge]

People don't start off as full time devs

[glad narwhal]

That's particular to you

[inland bridge]

Usually you have a job and work on indie game as hobby project

[glad narwhal]

But there are a lot of jobs that were took off

[subtle grotto]

If you're spending a lot less time on development, say you're churning out games every month or so as a solo dev.
What difference is that gonna make? You already release small games with short dev cycles - you can afford to spend a week or two learning a new engine

Like I said earlier - the only real reasons for allowing these changes are:

• Actually actively agreeing with them. in which case, you have no reason to switch because you already support the company
• It's financially impossible to switch engine right now. As a solo dev or for very small teams, this isn't really a concern. It becomes a concern for larger studios which now have to spend money on training all the employees

[vernal mural]

but everyone that agrees with the changes is evil, right?

[subtle grotto]

I didn't say that

[glad narwhal]

https://www.youtube.com/live/qyLcI5O9iUY?si=j7d04AtEW24-eHxP

[subtle grotto]

I'm not really taking issue with people who agree with the changes

I'm taking issue with people who are apathetic and ignoring it because "it doesn't personally affect me"

[wide hound]

I'm not ignoring it tho.

[vernal mural]

so you're saying that if a company does something that doesn't affect you personally, and you're ok with that while using their products, you're evil?

[inland bridge]

When did he ever say that

[subtle grotto]

You are ignoring it though

[subtle grotto]

Why are you strawmanning me

[vernal mural]

a short while back

[wide hound]

I'm not.

Not caring isn't ignoring it.

I've acknowledged the changes, but deemed them as minor thus not important. (I'm talking bout the latest changes anyways)

[vernal mural]

because I find it to be hypocritical to make such statements as if it's the only truth, while there's always more nuance to it

[subtle grotto]

🤨

Did you just defend strawmanning me

[vernal mural]

ofc, you said yamoshi was evil for this

[subtle grotto]

???

[wide hound]

I'm evil?

[subtle grotto]

Please, pray tell

Where was this said

Send me a link to the message I dare you. I'll wait

[vernal mural]

oh never mind that was fluff

but it was a follow up of your statements

[balmy osprey]

How is this still happening

[subtle grotto]

I am not mr fluff

[vernal mural]

I know

[inland bridge]

💀

[subtle grotto]

Also I think you need to look up what strawman means

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

[wide hound]

straw man = luffy

[balmy osprey]

Everyone is evil, we are all hypocrites. The world is run by greed and no matter what you do ypu are supporting a system that's built on suffering for the benefit of someone else.

[wide hound]

I'm not greedy.

[balmy osprey]

Nothing we can do, unless there is in which case no one is willing to do it

[wide hound]

Or a hyopcrite.

Yea bcuz the people in power will always be the same

[inland bridge]

This conversation has derailed so much from the whole point

[wide hound]

facts

[vernal mural]

yup, this

[balmy osprey]

You are an a hole though, embracing that fact doesn't justify it.

Everyone sucks yaaaay

Apparently a hole is a banned word

[wide hound]

I don't think being an a hole is evil.

[balmy osprey]

Didn't say it was

[wide hound]

It just depends on people's perspective.

You can be a good a hole

it's all perspective really

[subtle grotto]

[balmy osprey]

Yasa why is ahole banned

[subtle grotto]

Idk blame Discord

[balmy osprey]

Fuk

[subtle grotto]

We subscribe to the "commonly flagged words" list, Discord have decided that word is blocked so

We can't see what words are blocked, we just know based on which words get caught out as it happens

[balmy osprey]

U said it earlier tho ;-;

[subtle grotto]

Admin

I am exempt

[balmy osprey]

That's fuckin dumb

[subtle grotto]

tbh it shouldn't be a blocked word

[balmy osprey]

WHY IS FUCKIN BUT NOT AHOLE

[subtle grotto]

fucking isn't an insult

[balmy osprey]

Fucking ahole

[subtle grotto]

Discord blocks words that are used as insults, not "every swear word"

[balmy osprey]

Fuck discord

[vernal mural]

lol, some variations of fuck aren't allowed

[subtle grotto]

Yeah any version that can be used as an actual attack on a person

For example "fucker" is blocked

[balmy osprey]

Oh yay cuz anyone wanted mixhrosoft products with ai ffs

When did I subscribe to these emails

[subtle grotto]

Rip cortana

[balmy osprey]

I forgot about cortana

Don't even use that

Was that ai?

Thought it was just a shitty search engine with a voice

[subtle grotto]

It was a primitive AI, just like a small search assistant similar to Siri or Google Assistant

[wide hound]

oh ok

[balmy osprey]

Ya can't just slap a voice on something and call it ai

[wide hound]

it is

fuck

if u ad er after fuck it is a swear worrd

very crazy

[balmy osprey]

Fuck-er

[subtle grotto]

@wide hound

It doesn't block swears

[balmy osprey]

That's just an observation

[subtle grotto]

It blocks insults/attacks

[wide hound]

i see.

loser

loser isn't blocked

👍

[balmy osprey]

Fuck-er is just an observation not an insult

[subtle grotto]

loser isn't an insult

[vernal mural]

you are a loser

[balmy osprey]

How about dumb ass

[subtle grotto]

"I'm the loser in this game"

[balmy osprey]

No thay one is fine

[wide hound]

what bout stupid?

[balmy osprey]

Nerp

[subtle grotto]

You can call things or ideas stupid

[wide hound]

hmmm

so it's basically

[vernal mural]

I wonder if there are words that aren't just blocked but will also cause account deletion or something like that

[wide hound]

words that are only insults

[wide hound]

acount deletion?

[vernal mural]

a few years ago someone I know got his account removed because he posted a picture in a relatively private discord group and he got his account nuked a few months later

[wide hound]

Don't think so

[subtle grotto]

I doubt it. Unless your message is spreading some malware or other illegal stuff, that might get you banned

[balmy osprey]

Female anatomy is apparently an insult

[wide hound]

wdym

[inland bridge]

wdym

[subtle grotto]

Anyways

Let's get back on topic guys

[balmy osprey]

C-u nt

[wide hound]

boobs

oh i see

[inland bridge]

ofc that is blocked

Anyway

[balmy osprey]

Lmao

[wide hound]

ok

Imma go

[balmy osprey]

I may get puted for this but it's worth it

Muted*

[subtle grotto]

Ok let's stop now, back on topic

[inland bridge]

Yeah I'm still confused as to how the initial changes even got approved even if they were reverted all the way to just a 2.5% revenue share on next LTS version

[balmy osprey]

Soooo, about those splash screen changes

[subtle grotto]

The removal of splash screen requirement sure is an interesting change

[balmy osprey]

It's to encourage people to switch to the new lts. Cuz it's a choice now ig

[vernal mural]

the revision is just upper management getting a reality check after they sucked themselves off all day before publishing the initial version

[inland bridge]

The removal of the splash screen is a good change

People will probably still associate unity splash screen to crappy game quality but it'll help everyone

[balmy osprey]

It was a planned pr move to make the current changes sound good. Even though people would have been cool with this one anyway

[subtle grotto]

I should update the OP actually to mention the splash screen

[glad narwhal]

Maybe

[subtle grotto]

Done

for the record, OP is in the pinned messages. the very first one, scroll to the bottom

[inland bridge]

People are still quite split though lol

[balmy osprey]

If they just dropped the current changes people prolly would have reacted the same way "company greedy Yada yada". Wouldn't have breached trust though

[subtle grotto]

If they just went with a revshare model to begin with, no one would really care

[balmy osprey]

Maybe. But considering the ceo is from EA they prolly have experience with how to manage negative perceptions of changes like this. But unity had a better perception than EA ever has so prilly didn't pan out the way he wamted

[inland bridge]

If they just went with the rev share model to begin with people would still be upset but wouldn't care as much could they could just stay on the old LTS yeah

Announcing the per install retroactive changes first makes the new policy seem like they just did it out of necessity

They didn't even talk to the community first before announcing it

[crisp ice]

How'd you do that link thing

[balmy osprey]

Cuz yasa a fuckin genius obviously

[subtle grotto]

Markdown links

[balmy osprey]

Bruh I was tryna hype you up

[subtle grotto]

[text here](url here) - blocked in this server because security concerns

[crisp ice]

[subtle grotto]

but try it in DMs or a server of yours

Google it

[inland bridge]

Yeah those links scare me lol

[subtle grotto]

You can also suppress embeds the usual way, by using < > around the link. So google it

[coarse ginkgo]

i like how they add that now its even easier to get hacked by some bot

[subtle grotto]

Yeah it's incredibly easy to have malicious links now, especially since Google introduced .mov and .zip domains

So to avoid anything like that we just outright block those kinds of links here

[balmy osprey]

Why are those a thing

[subtle grotto]

.mov and .zip domains?

[balmy osprey]

Ye

[subtle grotto]

Ugh I dunno man, Google's dumb

I worry they'll add .exe in future

[balmy osprey]

Pfft we should be protesting their management

[balmy osprey]

Oh my God no ;-;

[coarse ginkgo]

damn why did people care about unity so much start rioting over google doing dumb stuff instead

[balmy osprey]

That being said it would be funny

[ancient kernel]

based Jason

[kind arch]

Lmao i joined right at the end and only heard like 3 seconds of audio

[kind arch]

Ftr i never said this. No where did i say anyone was evil

[ancient kernel]

same, lol

you can refresh it to rewatch from the beginning

[floral sparrow]

To create goodwill and get people to upgrade to 2023 LTS

The one where the new TOS applies

[celest verge]

I think its mostly just a trust thing at this point

The new pricing that theyve announced today, in my opinion is pretty alright

there are obviously still flaws with maintaining the runtime fee, but with a 2.5% cap on revenue, raising minimums for unity pro, and with the unity pro thresholds im pretty happy with it

But of course the trust has been broken and whos to say they wont try something worse in the future, so yeah

The most baffling part is that if they just did a straight 2.5% revshare rule from the beginning noone would have been angry, and it would likely be more profitable for them than the current plan...

unity management is questionable 🙃

[balmy osprey]

What's more expensive, paying per download or the 2.5?

[hollow sage]

That depends on different factors, like how much you charge players for your game, if you have in-app purchases that drive up your revenue, how many downloads you have, and what Unity plan you are on.
In the end, Unity say that you can either give them one number that they will charge you by, or you give them both numbers and they will charge you the lesser amount.

[wide hound]

I mean 2.5% is lower than unreal's 5%, right?

[balmy osprey]

Ye but I was asking about the 2.5 vs runtime fee

But yeah it's cheaper than unreal

The last I saw (which to be fair was 3 years ago) unreal was 5% per quarter, meaning whatever ypu made per 3 months. I think unity is per year so unity is much cheaper if unreal still goes by that metric

[quaint panther]

Unity personal is free, but if you make a 200000 gros revenue tou must upgrade to Unity Pro according to their TOS

The 2.5% share only applies to Unity Pro and Unity Enterprise or Industry if you have 1000000$ revenue within 1 year "and" 1000000 initial user or install starting with the Unity 2023 TOS so in 2024.

For now nothing to pay to unity

Enfin! unity took a good decision, i was already thinking in which way I will learn godot

[celest verge]

Depends really heavily on your situation but both only ever max out at 2.5% anyway

So I imagine all studios will just budget 2.5% away to unity if they have any chance of reaching the threshold

[quaint panther]

Best and simple solution

[subtle grotto]

Enfin
I spy french

[quaint panther]

Sorry
And even spanish ?

[subtle grotto]

Oh you didn't have to change it, I wasn't commenting on a rule break

I just noticed that word, you must speak french

[quaint panther]

😅😅

[quaint panther]

Yes. My primary language.
But i saw somthing in the rule that "do not post in french" or something like that

[subtle grotto]

Correct rule 10 is "english only", but I'm pretty sure it was fine in your case. I'm almost certain I've seen "enfin" used in english on occassion

[quaint panther]

Re edit my message

[subtle grotto]

kek

Yeah it's in the collins american dictionary

[quaint panther]

Never seen "enfin", but instead "voila"

Not present in my country's dictionary

[subtle grotto]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxU5XwDuo2Y

[ancient kernel]

hold up,
let me consult my calculator

[hidden totem]

it's lower if you never change to pro technically

[ancient kernel]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/415426196415971330/1154840839864995840/image.png

everyone who was so vocal in announcing that they're gonna leave Unity can just come back to 2023 LTS and no one will ever know that they caved

[lethal rune]

Its also self reported, so they are relying on you

[balmy osprey]

depending on what country you live in your government may or may not give "incentives" to businesses not to lie about stuff like that.... if thats what you were getting at

[crisp ice]

Gonna add a fake Unreal splashscreen so the gamers think my game is good

[balmy osprey]

fuck is this dudes problem lmao

i gurantee this dude has never made a game

thats rich

[crisp ice]

[golden finch]

I mean, 4+ is still in development little to no community support is incorrect. But the latter part? Yeah I'd agree with him there. I mean, you won't use a spoon to eat spaghetti just 'cause you use spoons more on a daily basis, right?

[balmy osprey]

4+ has a stable release tho, i have found one bug, not even a problematic one, i have had no problem with community support its very active. i suppose the latter part has some merrit to it but a game engine isnt like a spoon, its like a collection of utensils, some forks, knives, spoons (whatever else you would have). switching engine cuz one has silver spoons while the other has brass forks doesnt seem super worth the extra time to become versed in both engines

i cant speak on unreal, but unity and godot have pretty on par 2d and mobile capabilities with the exception of ads i suppose. godot feels better than unity for 2d imo but again its silver to brass not really worth the extra effort for over the tools themselves

idk, maybe thats normal. kinda talkin outa my ass but seems like a lot of extra work for little return

[hidden totem]

well they're probably just someone that doesn't use the app and mostly hear it from others just cause

saying used both engines sounds sketchy for a team cause it means the team is multitalented and kinda unfocused, even if i kinda do that too now that i think about it

and saying there's no community is like hinting as well actually, cause it's quite a big one

[balmy osprey]

sounds strange that someone who is well versed in multiple engines could be so wrong about them

[hidden totem]

i've actually used multiple, and can safely say each has their own things, but one has flaws if compared to others in certain cases but saying "depends on platform requirement" now is quite obsolete since most supports almost every platform used anyways

[balmy osprey]

oh god

[grave fractal]

average "godot sux unity better!" person

we stan godot in this joint

[balmy osprey]

Well no don't put me in the godot boyscout club lmao like I'm digging the new gs but I ain't got no parasocial relationship with the icon bruv

[kind arch]

I dont think there is a godot vs unity thing here. Besides there is no "better"

[wintry lily]

;-; shush trash policy

[tired oracle]

doesnt exist anymore

[tired oracle]

outdated

[wintry lily]

good

[grave fractal]

i was talking about the guy in the comments

oh wait

i misread that

im just saying that godot is pretty based

[tall sparrow]

Why do I feel like unity updating and then resolving this runtime issue was their task all along

So that they can say "we listen to you"

[bleak token]

[tired oracle]

i think you are digging to deep into it

[kind arch]

honestly that doesnt sound impossible

[cursive torrent]

nah it’s just a plain bad decision, I doubt a single unity dev agreed with it internally

any dev could see the issues with the business model miles away

executive just didnt consult with devs

[kind arch]

yea its not about the devs. this is referring to the executives. the devs had nothing to do with this
the executives knew this was going to be a bad decision but did it anyways probably because they didnt want to admit they were wrong and were being stubborn. i doubt they wouldve asked the community anything tbh. they shouldve asked the devs at least

like the whole "we shouldve communicated better" was probably pointed towards talking to the devs internally. the community i dont think they even give a shit about

[tired oracle]

if they didnt give a shit about the community they wouldnt have change anything
now you could say "they only care about money" and like yeah, duh, every company cares about money
it just so happens that user happines and money are related with each other

[kind arch]

They changed because of the backlash. If they cared they wouldve realized their error way sooner instead of all this drama

They care about money yes. And that is the issue. They hoped they could get away with this idea and they even knew it wasnt going to be taken well. Idc what every company does. How the ceo and executives acted is wrong

[umbral plume]

hehe not even worth using unity since it isn't free if u use it in a company

[tired oracle]

i totally agree that this was a rushed decision motivated by getting more money,
i dont mind giving unity money, its a product they can do whatever they want

however as i said if unity didnt care, they wouldnt have changed anything.
backlash or not, community said it was wrong, unity changed it

[wide hound]

what, isn't he a minecraft let's player or something

[hard crow]

guys what happens now?
I've read the new new TOS and while I don't think it's that bad, I'm still confused about whether I should switch to godot or not

people keep saying that new new TOS is still a bad thing but I dont think it will affect me as a unknown indie dev

• I dont really wanna learn godot its complicated

[subtle grotto]

Every engine is complicated

[hard crow]

true but having to start from scratch sucks man

[hidden totem]

well change if you must, but don't if you feel like that's a wast of time is my way

though learning alternatives may be a useful backup plans in case stuff happens, something kinda complicated to do probably

[subtle grotto]

It's not entirely from scratch if you already have experience

[hard crow]

yeah that makes sense

[small bison]

While I do know how to use Godot, I'm not switching my game's engine for the 20th time

[subtle grotto]

Also, I watched the stream with Jason Weimann, there's some important terminology to be aware of

Marc did clear up what counts as an "install"

[small bison]

I definitely won't be using Unity for any new projects assuming the leadership doesn't change, but I'm too commited to change for my current project

[hidden totem]

so yeah, just do at your own pace, i feel like moving around engines is quite annoying if you are already comfortable with one

[subtle grotto]

Essentially they are taking a cut of sales - but they also want it to count for free-to-play games which naturally don't have "sales". "install" was simply a poor wording choice, a better word would have been "acquisition" - the first time a user buys your paid game or downloads your free game

[hidden totem]

feels like installs means download in their heads

[subtle grotto]

It does. But you don't have downloads for physicsl copies sold

What they've said is the figure you see in whatever storefront you have, that's the figure you report to Unity

So however many purchases Steam tells you you've had

However many downloads google play says you've had

[willow dew]

seems like you could just lie tho

I mean Unity doesn’t know that info

[subtle grotto]

But if they find out and they sue you, they will win

[willow dew]

true

[severe lintel]

whoever runs their twitter account need to stfu fr 💀

[celest verge]

That wont be a problem

Companies are really diligent to self report correctly

Because if you dont, whatever legal fees and fines you pay when another company takes you to court are always more expensive than just paying...

[toxic wasp]

so if you use old versions you will not have the fees?

[celest verge]

Yes

[severe lintel]

that's what they said

[toxic wasp]

[grave fractal]

"we weren't doing anything illegal, this very important document was just unpopular so we deleted it!"

[subtle grotto]

Marc cleared up that the repo is back public again

[balmy osprey]

i meant the stan thing

[balmy osprey]

idk what he does nowadays i just saw the vid, thought it was funny even captain sparkle had something to say about it. maybe he uses it for vfx not sure lol

[balmy osprey]

depends on what matters to you. assuming they dont change the current model you should be safe to keep using unity, at least to finish any current projects. but if you dont trust their leadership than def switch.

[balmy osprey]

thats why i didnt post a link, just thought it was funny

most everything became outdated like 15 hours ago

[ancient kernel]

Their TOS has been on Unity's website the whole time. I even posted a link to it, which got pinned in this channel.

[grave fractal]

it was, but didn't they change it

[ancient kernel]

they announced that changes were coming

but the pre-existing terms are still in effect until Jan 1st

Companies also change their terms of service all the time, it's not illegal.

Nor does it always require a signature to agree to the changes. Many companies simply add a line stating something like "continued use of our service constitutes your consent to these changes"

[grave fractal]

it's not illegal, but it's immoral to change the line that iirc went something like "If you do not agree to license changes made to newer versions, you can keep using older versions with the old conditions"

[subtle grotto]

It's illegal to change the terms retroactively

[inland bridge]

^

[subtle grotto]

They (originally) stated that games already on the market, already published, would be subject to this system. Who said the devs continue to use the software? They could've released a Unity game like 3 years ago and have since moved engine. They did not agree to any new terms, nor were they ever planning to. You cannot impose new terms on those people

[ancient kernel]

People can have opinions as to whether that's ethical or not,
but it is not illegal, and yet so many people have spread misinformation claiming specifically that it's illegal, and also claiming that removing the github repo was illegal.

Both are incorrect, and yet people keep spreading those falsehoods.

[subtle grotto]

^

[ancient kernel]

Thankfully, intelligent people have done our best to provide real information to counter misinformation when we see it, during this whole ordeal.

[subtle grotto]

It's not misinformation they literally claimed that already-published games would be subject to this, before they changed their minds yesterday

[ancient kernel]

The Unity runtime that shipped with the game is still in the game.

[balmy osprey]

considering most no one here is a loyer i dont think speaking on the legality of the situation is responsible in this forum

[subtle grotto]

Okay so what

The C++ runtime ships with a lot of desktop apps

Imagine trying to charge devs from back in like the 90s who released a small desktop app and maybe who have died

[ancient kernel]

It is misinformation when people are saying that changing the TOS at all is illegal. People aren't getting nearly as granular as the case you're attempting to make.
They just make blanket statements out of ignorance, like the many I have read above.

[grave fractal]

nobody says that though?

[balmy osprey]

produce an example

[ancient kernel]

You did.

[tired oracle]

they do lmao

[grave fractal]

I did not

[ancient kernel]

I replied to where you implied that Unity was lying about not doing anything illegal

[balmy osprey]

dont make overarching claims that cannot be fact checked

[celest verge]

I think hes referring to this

[grave fractal]

the mock-up message is a joke

[subtle grotto]

They're not doing anything illegal now. They were

[celest verge]

but there definitely were people who say that deleting the repo was illegal, which is just... not true

[ancient kernel]

I'm not singling you out, though, so I hope you are not offended. There have been so many people all over the internet claiming the same things, so you probably heard it from them.

[grave fractal]

and while i do believe that the statement in the original post is hypocritical (about removing it because it had low traffic or whatever), saying that it's illegal was an overexaggaration

[subtle grotto]

Lol who said that

[ancient kernel]

Exactly. And the primary location for their terms of service was also available where it should be - on their own website.

[celest verge]

The message in the screenshot for example. Noone is tweeting "unitys deletion of the github repository is illegal" word for word but people make comments that insinuate/indicate that the deletion of the repo was illegal

[ancient kernel]

Have you not been paying attention since this whole thing started? It's one of the main reasons why people have been saying "Unity has destroyed their trust"

[balmy osprey]

there is definitely someone somewhere who said just about anything. if we arent gonna produce useful conversation with evidence then we might as well close thisthread

[celest verge]

And when people interpret these, they get the idea that it was an illegal thing

[grave fractal]

i haven't gotten out of my way to talk about this drama other than like this thread and making a twitter post (hey! i have a total of 2 tweets now, moving up in the world (or down, depending on how you look at it)), so i don't really know what other people say about this whole thing, i just overheard that unity deleted their TOS from their github page and made changes to the line i mentioned prior

[ancient kernel]

It's funny how many people became overnight lawyers and business experts throughout all this

[tired oracle]

i see lots of people come into this topic with overwhelming emotion. i think its really important to remain level headed before making claims, opinions etc.

I also see lots of people who are just absolutely Hating on unity, not being able to see a single positive thing nor acknowledging that its not some big comapny trying to fuck over all the customers but rather a rushed decision.
At the end of the day unity is a company which needs money

[ancient kernel]

It's similar to the people claiming there was an insider trading conspiracy involved. Which there is also no evidence of.

[grave fractal]

i thought that was because unity tried to retroactively apply the fees

[inland bridge]

The insider trading thing was just confirmation bias I think

People wanted something to latch on to

[ancient kernel]

There are lots of reasons why people were/are angry and saying they lost trust. That is another one, yes.

[tired oracle]

everybody going like: "Ceo sold 2k of his share before this decision" while not knowing he has 3 million shares

[grave fractal]

i just never thought that the TOS thing would be one of the main reasons

[ancient kernel]

It's still one of the main reasons

And it's an understandable reason why people would be upset or wary,

[tired oracle]

i can honestly why the trust was broken, it was a bad decision and all
but i think a lot of people are blowing things out of proportion

[grave fractal]

i barely see people talking about it, but again, i don't really know what other people say about this other than the stuff being said in this thread

[ancient kernel]

but it's not illegal, as so many claimed and still claim it to be.

[subtle grotto]

This I agree with. Riccitiello is known to constantly trade stock, and he didn't even sell that much. People blew this thing way out of proportion

[ancient kernel]

the SEC watches this kind of stuff very closely

[subtle grotto]

I genuinely have not seen a single person say they lost trust because they privated the ToS repo

I'm not trying to discredit you, I believe you and I don't doubt people lost trust that way

[ancient kernel]

I've seen and heard it in so many places.

[subtle grotto]

I just haven't spoken to anyone who has

[ancient kernel]

But even losing trust isn't a point to argue over, since that's a matter of each person's opinion and how it relates to themselves.

But people thinking that Unity tried to do something illegal, that's something that needs to be cleared up.

[balmy osprey]

people have been losing trust for awhile now, since they partnered with a malware distributor. this latest decision just finally gave people a big enough reason to leave

[grave fractal]

^ i switched to godot a year ago

the ironSource thing was definitely a bit worrying

[celest verge]

The malware distributor thing was something blown out of proportion too in my opinion

[grave fractal]

but then the calling of devs "f***ing idiots" was the last straw for me, which was a shame because i had barely any problems with unity prior to that

[balmy osprey]

true, its weird but there wasnt a lot of info on what the partnership was for so i didnt really look into it then

[balmy osprey]

ay i mean lets be real some of us are fukcing idiots lol

[grave fractal]

i mean yeah

[celest verge]

Ironsource made installer bundling software. Malicious people used it to bundle malware with their programs, and so overtime their program and company became associated with malware even though they just made an bundle installer

[grave fractal]

but not for the reason the CEO has stated

[celest verge]

but saying that they distribute malware is a stretch

[inland bridge]

I still trust Unity for the most part, it's not like they're completely ruining their engine or doubling down on sapping money from every single dev (yet)
This whole billing update could just be a genuine mistake on their part, it's left me more confused than anything why they wouldn't draft up some ideas and consult the community first before making a final announcement
That said I'm still switching engines cause I just found I like the workflow in other places more, lol

[grave fractal]

yeah but that wasn't well known at the time and if some company has bad reputation then it's understandable that people aren't going to like it

[celest verge]

The knowledge of this was as available back then as it is now... people just read a headline and got angry

[grave fractal]

it was available but not many people knew about it

i mean i didn't even know what ironSource was until the merge and i bet most people didn't

[balmy osprey]

the companies missmanagement is a great reason not to trust the company rn. i mean they have been hemoraging money for years now. say nothing of the recent decisions whoever is in charge aint doing biznes too good

[grave fractal]

just saying that bad reputation is bad reputation even if it's false, it's not correct to hate based on false bad reputation, but it's justifiable

[celest verge]

I dont see how this relates, the point is that if you just look slightly into what the company does you realize that its more complicated than "ironsource is a malware distributor"

[ancient kernel]

Correct, Ironsource did not create malware.
They made an installer for people to use, that bad actors abused for that purpose,
but that is like saying that the makers of C++ were involved in malware...

[grave fractal]

^

this is my point

[celest verge]

you called them a malware distributor in your text earlier knowing this?

[ancient kernel]

Yeah, and that is unfortunately the skill issue that people are having,
not looking up information and just going by hearsay and jumping to conclusions.

[grave fractal]

don't feel like explaining the whole thing

also iirc i said that when explaining why people were mad at unity prior which would make that statement mostly correct, people thought that it was a malware distributor, because malware was distributed using their app bundler

which is why people got mad

it's not entirely correct to dislike that change but it's not wrong either

[celest verge]

I dont understand

You make a comment saying that you "Lost trust because they partnered with a malware distributor", and then now you're saying you knew that they werent, didnt feel like explaining it, but still said that theyre a malware distributor before?

[ancient kernel]

I agree, lots of emotional reactions. Basically mass hysteria.

[inland bridge]

Yeah like I said, if the most recent announcements were the initial ones people probably wouldn't really care that much lol

[grave fractal]

yeah, because i didn't feel like explaining it
i could've explained it, but i chose not to in the moment, i don't think it's that big of a deal
it's not like it's going to change the way someone thinks about unity considering the recent events

also sorry if some of my messages are like formatted in a weird way i'm a bit sleepy

i also use commas instead of dots a lot even when the sentence should be over (a bad habit of mine)

[celest verge]

I mean yeah, I agree that most people wont change their mind from it anyway. The malware distributor thing is just something that frustrates me sometimes

[grave fractal]

i understand that

[celest verge]

But most people have made up their mind, as you said, so I suppose its not really even worth debating

[tired oracle]

pretty much, im fine with the new terms, old ones were terrible but since they were changed, they dont matter much anymore

[celest verge]

Yeah assuming they stick to them, and dont try to do something like the original ones in the future, im really quite happy with them

[tired oracle]

yup, it was a bad decision on unity's side for sure, but its a company and companies sometimes make bad decisions, its really important they listened and changed it

[golden finch]

The 'clarification' on "installs" makes things much better too

[torn ridge]

https://youtu.be/KTWHdLZZdGw

[toxic wasp]

https://tenor.com/view/among-us-stop-posting-about-among-us-sus-among-us-sus-gif-23950230

[robust wagon]

That is already changed to better pricing

[grave fractal]

#announcements even a slight chance that brackeys might post more videos is like a blessing

this line legit made me jump out of my chair in excitement

[vocal shale]

The King himself has returned

Still surreal to see Brackeys actually commenting on this

[grave fractal]

Yeah

[subtle grotto]

For what it's worth I didn't expect it either

But I am glad he's taking a stand here. I was curious to hear his thoughts on all of this

[kind arch]

I want to know who "we" is

[ember mirage]

About the splash screen, did you mean made with unity will no longer be available?

[subtle grotto]

They mean it will be optional

[hollow sage]

"Brackeys" has not just been Asbjorn for a long time.
I suspect "we" in the context of the announcement means then entire Brackeys team.

[ember mirage]

So ppl can turn it off?

[subtle grotto]

That's the idea yes

[inland bridge]

Yeah

Only on next year's LTS though

It won't apply to all unity versions

[ember mirage]

It's like 10% cool I was looking to turn it off, and I think it should apply from unity 2023 or 2024 onwards

[subtle grotto]

It will apply to the next LTS onwards

It will be interesting to see what percentage of devs turn it off though

[ember mirage]

I'm gonna get 2022 lts asap

[subtle grotto]

Because historically, the splash screen has had this stigma around it. "Oh this game has the Unity splash screen, the dev must've not had much money. the game must be shit"

But this will no longer be the case

[kind arch]

Oh i thought the company was broken up

[ember mirage]

Yes idk why ppl think this way

This dev not have enough money

[hollow sage]

Because now the dev will need money to use Unity in the first place

[ember mirage]

It could be a prototype

Ye

Unity is getting to shit

Maybe

C# is main reason why I love unity

[hollow sage]

Because "free" is often equated with "cheap". And people are quick to judge a book (or game, in this case) by its cover.
Also prototypes often are shit. That's the whole reason you prototype; to try something out. If you're sane, you just don't release your prototypes if they are dysfunctional.

But I think one of the main reasons people are quick to judge Unity games, is because there's a ton of mobile games made with Unity that are cheaply made and serve only to present the player with ads. Or microtransactions.
And then there's the common notion that "Unity games always look bad". It's not true, of course (have you seen GTFO or the The Book of the Dead demo?), but good-looking Unity games are few and far between.

[subtle grotto]

There are loads of good looking Unity games

Firewatch was made in Unity and that game is stunning

They hand-crafted almost every single tree in the game

[ember mirage]

I agree

[ember mirage]

Stunning

Ok guys, I should be off now gotta make ma project!

[inland bridge]

Yeah

Unfortunately a downside of being super popular

There will always be a significantly higher percentage of crappy games to actually good ones

Combine that with so many people picking up Unity as their first engine, yeah people will start making bad judgements

[golden finch]

There was this YouTube video that explained it quite well, and was released well before this pricing shenanigans

[cursive torrent]

the trees aren’t procedural?

[subtle grotto]

nope

Their env artists crafted all of them

well, all the ones that you come into close contact with like those

trees off in the distance are probably procedural LODs

[lofty python]

Did you see the Email from Unity?

They updated their pricing thing

[subtle grotto]

That happened 6 days ago

[lofty python]

What?

I got the email yesterday

[subtle grotto]

https://blog.unity.com/news/open-letter-on-runtime-fee

[lofty python]

Wait 1 sec

[subtle grotto]

Unless you are talking about another change I'm not aware of

[subtle grotto]

I haven't really been following for the past couple of days so maybe something new has hit

[subtle grotto]

Oh I believe this is the same announcement, they just localised it to other languages recently

[lofty python]

Well there is written pretty much the same

Ohhh, okay. Are you all still gonna switch?

[subtle grotto]

I am, I'm pretty set on using Unreal

[lofty python]

How are you learning unreal with c++. I just don't get it.

[golden finch]

Fuck I couldn't find it and ended up watching cat videos

[subtle grotto]

I already know C++ so

[lofty python]

But do you need to KNOW it? Like for Unity with c# I just learned a bit and then got right into unity

[golden finch]

🤷 I mean, if you've got C++ experience with some knowledge of vector math I'd assume it to be somewhat straightforward

[lofty python]

I got 0 experience with c++. I only know about c#

[subtle grotto]

It definitely helps. Though it is possible to create an entire game in Blueprints, it's not commonly done because Blueprints aren't as performant as compiled C++ code

[golden finch]

Nah, Blueprints works fine. Buuut knowing good practices/having programming experience and such will always be helpful

[golden finch]

Like, even for unity while using C# there's a lot of things that people can improve at

[lofty python]

No thats not what I ment. I want to programm with c++ but I want to know If I should first learn c++ normaly or instantly learn it with unreal

[golden finch]

Yk some time ago we needed to pass strings to a method to connect input

Annd dear God the number of people just not creating a class with all of the strings as constants was terrifying

[golden finch]

Dunno, in my experience even while learning C# only for and with unity at first, I learnt a lot about the language working on other, non-unity projects

Haven't really worked in with unreal or C++ to answer you here tbh

[lofty python]

Because for Unity I was able to find tutorials that made a game in Unity but also explained the code so I would learn both. But for Unreal it seems like all tutorials are for people with c++ background

[kind arch]

You should always learn the language outside of the engine before continuing. Understanding how it works will make learning much easier

[subtle grotto]

You should be familiar with c++ syntax yes, the same as you should be familiar with C# syntax before using unity

don't learn a programming language while also learning an entire game engine API

[kind arch]

Also unreal relies on blueprints more than anything so you probably wont be using c++ as much as you think

[lofty python]

I won't?

For example if I would make this little ping pong two player game, you know what I mean? Would you make it with blueprints or c++?

[subtle grotto]

That's quite a simple game, you could do that entirely in blueprints

[kind arch]

You still will
Its just not going to be like how you use c# for everything in unity.
Unreal you can use blueprints and c++. For more control youll still want to learn c++ but like you dont have to

[golden finch]

Ohhh, you mean it like that. Please learn basic C++ syntax and practices first. Heck! Even the way you learnt C# is kinda questionable

[subtle grotto]

I find this in bad form on the part of the tutorial makers. So many of them handhold and try to teach C# syntax while giving Unity tutorials, it's fucking annoying

Tutorials should not ever couple the two

[golden finch]

A lot of language features get overshadowed when you try to learn a large api while first starting out with the programming language. That's quite unhealthy and can cause bad practices like this
#1151519526136066088 message

[subtle grotto]

because a) you should already know the language anyway, and b) it makes it impossible for more experienced devs to follow the tutorial. I have genuinely tried to watch a tutorial in the past and the guy was like "so we do open bracket and close bracket and end it with a semicolon" and I'm just like "YES I KNOW HOW TO CODE PLEASE TELL ME HOW TO MAKE A TRAJECTORY LINE"

[lofty python]

Yeah but thats how I learned it xD

[kind arch]

I learned c# via making things in winforms and looking back on that code that was not the best move

[golden finch]

Please tell me you know what enums or Linq is?

[subtle grotto]

honestly this is a large reason why I sometimes write my own tutorials. even if another tutorial already exists, I want to teach it the way I believe it should be taught - by not assuming the reader is a complete idiot on the subject. I give only the information that's actually relevant

[lofty python]

I do know Enums

[golden finch]

LINQ?

[lofty python]

No

[golden finch]

...wait how do you go learn C# without stumbling across LINQ even on- nevermind

So yeah

That's what happens when you don't learn the language properly

[lofty python]

I only watched Unity tutorials

[kind arch]

I didnt know what access modifers were or how they worked. I used a text file to communicate variables between files xd
I barely understood how classes worked other than using the boilerplate code winforms gave me
Absolute paths were everywhere lol
Long af if statements that couldve easily been a switch or done with linq

Yea i hate my old code

[lofty python]

Ill send one

[subtle grotto]

honestly though this is fine

[golden finch]

You don't know a massive library that's a large attractive feature of the language you're using

[subtle grotto]

WinForms is simple enough that the API isn't so much of a distraction from the language learning process

I learned VB by making GUI apps

I learned C# by making GUI apps (with WinForms actually )

[golden finch]

Yesn't, still better to branch out a little bit tho

[lofty python]

https://youtu.be/pwZpJzpE2lQ?si=zU44pQKjBmhqsCSQ

[subtle grotto]

Using anything more complex like WPF or MAUI, where you have a whole fucking MVVM/MVC structure, I would absolutely not recommend for learning C#

[kind arch]

So i did good thing

[subtle grotto]

but WinForms is minimal enough that you don't need to worry about it

[golden finch]

Hm hm

[kind arch]

Shit i learned most languages by trying to make gui

Even python tho i didnt like tkinter which got me switching to c# in the first place

[golden finch]

I learnt most by trying to do image processing for some reason

My previous orca went through so many changes

[subtle grotto]

Actually some of the first apps I ever made in C# are on my github as part of personal archivist project

For example https://github.com/oliverbooth/iPodUnlocker

and https://github.com/oliverbooth/15puzzle

[lofty python]

Why do you all make things outside of games

[golden finch]

Huh cool

[subtle grotto]

Because that's how you learn the language itself

[kind arch]

Because im not a game dev

[golden finch]

Helps to learn, and the fact that gamedev isn't the only industry people who learn programming are restricted to

[inland bridge]

I learned c# making an absurd number of console apps and some things with winforms

[lofty python]

What is a easy thing to do with c++

[subtle grotto]

The same as easy things in other languages

You could practice by making a command-line Blackjack

that's always a fun one

[kind arch]

Im going to learn c++ by probably making a mini language. Or a gui app. We will see lol

[lofty python]

Well i never did any projects

[subtle grotto]

in that case

[kind arch]

Orrrrr i could get into embedded systems but its still a struggle for me :(

[gentle ermine]

These are some links with ideas for small projects!

• https://github.com/karan/Projects
• https://github.com/joereynolds/what-to-code
• http://andrewcombs13.com/projectIdeas/
• https://www.reddit.com/r/dailyprogrammer/
• https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-2fa8b318be75adf3d32f85eb42d2422e-c
• https://github.com/scraggo/bookmarks-programming/blob/master/project-ideas.md
• https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Category:Programming_Tasks

[subtle grotto]

kek

[golden finch]

Was this the marcro oh wait tmit is

[subtle grotto]

we can keep yours

[golden finch]

Oh THATS WHY IT LOOKED WEIRDLY LARGER

Huh

[subtle grotto]

yeah I ran it too

[golden finch]

I'm just really tired

Gn

[balmy osprey]

yo yasa do you make games

[subtle grotto]

I try to

[balmy osprey]

lol i just found ur website

[subtle grotto]

I have actually finished very very few games

But I do have like

maybe 100 prototypes

proof of concepts

[balmy osprey]

oh sick

[subtle grotto]

if I combined them I could probably make an actual game out of them

I just don't always have the dedication to do so

[balmy osprey]

this prolly aint the place to ask but what software do you work on

[subtle grotto]

I like to work on something quickly. So I have lots of projects with individual systems (they were made in Unity but now I need to remake them in Unreal)

like I have an interaction system

I have item collect/drop in another project

I got lots of little pieces

[balmy osprey]

oooh. you should upload them to unreal asset thing. alot more artist focued people tend to use unreal iv heard

less techy techy

[subtle grotto]

I was actually in the middle of making a proper game until Unity announced this whole thing

I was making good progress but now because I decided to switch I have to start over

[balmy osprey]

fuck dude lmao

thats fine tho, tbh the unity workflow is kinda hindering. i feel personally that godot has enables me to do more work tha ni ever could with unity. maybe unreal will be the same for you

[subtle grotto]

I was remaking Kula World

[balmy osprey]

noice, thats trippy

[subtle grotto]

I did actually have a somewhat working version of this in Unreal a long while ago

So I know it's entirely possible to do again

But I since lost the source for this project so I do have to write it all from scratch 🙃

[balmy osprey]

mmm look at dem graphics

unreals editor looks so nasty tho lmao

[subtle grotto]

oh that's the old editor

I made that back in UE4

[balmy osprey]

ah, i hope ue5 got some color. my adhd brain needs stimuli

[subtle grotto]

UE5 editor is flat and more minimal now, way better looking

[balmy osprey]

mmm thats the shit right there

i totally plan to move to eu5 one day cuz c++ is my baby and c# is like its annoying baby cousin. plus if i ever have a studio of my own id like to be able to break into the console market

[subtle grotto]

you're not wrong tbh

[balmy osprey]

lmao

idk why c++ gets so much shit its literally the easiest thing to learn. javascript gave me more trouble

[hidden totem]

might be pointers that are making C++ a bit intimidating from a C# perspective, * is usually multiplication

in c++ it's also pointers

[subtle grotto]

in c# it's also pointers

[hidden totem]

ah

[kind arch]

I have an easier time learning c++ than rust. The hard thing with c++ tho is the mem management that c# usually takes care of for you

[hidden totem]

think i just haven't reached that far

[subtle grotto]

it's rare to come across, C# devs typically don't use raw pointers and if they do it's almost always in the context of native interop to some lib that wants a pointer

but they exist

c# does support them

[hidden totem]

arrow being used is also something new when learning c++ in unreal, being rarely used them during unity times

i saw those two as probably a bit more of a challenge to get used to

[hidden totem]

oh, good to know, thanks

[balmy osprey]

a pointer is an integer that stores the memory location of another block of memory. what about that is hard to understand

[hidden totem]

from the things i've learned, that's not something that comes up often so for me it's just seen as foreign

[kind arch]

More so how to use them than the definition

[small bison]

Segfault go brrrrr

[hidden totem]

yeah, that too honestly, like i don't know if i should use pointers or not and how do i use them, is it different or something takes a bit of time

[small bison]

I personally do not see a reason to use explicit pointer other than for allocating to the heap

Some libraries do require pointers everywhere though

[balmy osprey]

that is exactly the only reason you use them

to point to heap allocated memory

cuz its not contiguous

thats it

[small bison]

I still do not get why some libraries want a pointer to an integer, even if they don't change it

[hidden totem]

yeah takes a bit for me to understood them, now i think i'm a bit more comfortable with C++ though

[balmy osprey]

ig if someone doesnt fully understand how the heap and stack work than pointers are confusing cuz like "why would you use them". but cherno exists if you want detailed info on that

[small bison]

I'd say:
Small structs? use the direct way to construct
Large classes with multiple layers of inheritance? use the new keyword

It's very generalized, but makes sense in most cases

[hidden totem]

yeah, starting out i never understood that at first

[balmy osprey]

depends on ur design philosophy ig but genrally speaking, anything that needs to percist throughout ur whole program, put on the heap to ensure it isnt popped off the stack early, anything that you only need for one function, can be allocated on the stack

[small bison]

It's good to think of the stack like a small array, while the heap is the whole block of memory that isn't used

You could say a stack is an untyped array on the heap
While it is wrong, functionally it's right

[balmy osprey]

its just some shit on ur ram

[hidden totem]

i've learned most of them from just looking up, so it wasn't easy, so this actually helps out to know

[small bison]

Also IIRC the stack doesn't get swapped?

[balmy osprey]

how do you mean

[small bison]

To the disk

[balmy osprey]

no, the stack is in ur ram, it doesnt get stored on ur disk

if thats what you mean

[small bison]

I mean if the OS can swap it onto the disk like it can with the heap

[balmy osprey]

no

not unless you tell it to store those values in a file

[small bison]

So that would be another use for the stack over the heap

[balmy osprey]

?

[small bison]

the heap can be swapped onto the disk if there's not enough memory

[balmy osprey]

no

[small bison]

Yes

[balmy osprey]

ur program just crashes

[small bison]

That's if you go over the memory and the disk

[balmy osprey]

or stalls cuz the cpu cant allocate memory for it

[subtle grotto]

Hm yes unity pricing change talk very tasty good job

[balmy osprey]

ih fuck sry

[hidden totem]

idk how it turned out like this

[small bison]

NVG mind if we continue this talk in DMs?

[subtle grotto]

It started out because someone was talking about learning C++ for Unreal

[balmy osprey]

sure

[subtle grotto]

But let's try get back on topic now please

[balmy osprey]

👀

[hidden totem]

anyways

[subtle grotto]

We always have https://discord.com/channels/243005537342586880/1030957373365428315 (or #chat itself) for general programming chitchat

[coarse ginkgo]

yasa what is that #unknown channel

[subtle grotto]

#1030957373365428315

is that not linking?

[balmy osprey]

it goes to offtopic

[hidden totem]

it goes there, just looks as unknown for a bit

[subtle grotto]

classic discord

[coarse ginkgo]

still unknown

maybe i dont have all channels shown?

i have them all on

[hidden totem]

try pressing it, might show it afterwards

[coarse ginkgo]

no it doesnt

[hidden totem]

it's odd that it shows on me, feels like a discord weird time then

[coarse ginkgo]

still doesnt show

XD

[hidden totem]

welp, can't help it then

[native mesa]

will this thread ever close, after what unity has done, as they call "fixes"

[coarse ginkgo]

why would it? its just a good place to suggest engines

oh wait

nvm wrong thread

XD

maybe it will close

[native mesa]

keep it alive ?

[pseudo crown]

Can someone fill me in on what's happened here while I was gone?

Please?

[subtle grotto]

It's explained in the OP

Which is also pinned

Open pinned messages, scroll down to the first (last) one

@pseudo crown

[knotty jackal]

unity decided to be real greedy and then realising their mistake and reverted back
it left many people in doubt and unity has lost many gamedevs trust

in short

[subtle grotto]

Actually after the stream with Jason Weimann, it's clear that it was never about greed - it was largely a huge miscommunication by the PR team

[knotty jackal]

oh

[subtle grotto]

They misused the word "install" when they meant "acquisition"

Because the idea was to charge a royalty, basically a per-purchase model, but one that didn't just apply to paid games

They said "install" because you don't "purchase" a free game

[pseudo crown]

Well, that I'm aware of. I meant, what happened between that and now?

Not Unity's so-called "resolution", I'm aware of that as well.

[subtle grotto]

No extra news has come out, really. The newer model they proposed has pacified almost everyone

But understandably a lot of devs are weary and trust has been broken with a large chunk of the community

[golden finch]

Tbh I still don't fully believe that the PR team didn't find any faults before publishing it

How tf do you roll out a pricing scheme(something that affects pretty much all non-bigass-studio developers using unity) update without rechecking it multiple times to ensure its correct interpretation

[inland bridge]

I think they know what they meant

[golden finch]

Although the original was dumb to the point that I am willing to believe it was a honest mistake

[golden finch]

And well, nor do I like not-so-well founded theories

[cursive torrent]

clumsy work from announcers thats all. Even most unity devs knew it was dumb

You can tell the person who wrote initial announcement had no idea what was going on

As well as in the FAQ

[pseudo crown]

Yeah... I don't think I can go back, either. At least not until the CEO is fired.

Hell, I'm not sure if I'd go back even then.

[subtle grotto]

John Riccitiello has stepped down as Unity CEO (updated the link so it's Unity's official post - same link as Zenvin)

And a news article in more digestible form, if you prefer

[bleak token]

pog

[hollow sage]

Corresponding news post by Unity

[crisp ice]

That's amazing

That's fantastic news

[lunar perch]

Here’s the thing, until a dev in this community has to start actually paying money, feels like we are all just complaining about a threat to a pipe dream we wish we had. I wish my problem was that Unity would start collecting a fee because then I’d actually have hit $1,000,000 in sales at a minimum

[inland bridge]

The exact numbers wasn't the problem

It was that it would apply to every game ever made with Unity and there was nothing you could do about it

There was also nothing stopping them from making it way worse, say you now have to pay Unity 50% of earnings

[tall lake]

This community is full of devs from indie to AAA and all in between, im sure there are devs that are directly affected by the numbers or might become affected following their release, as some are with publishers and other big-names that could help them indirectly reach those numbers - though I think the concern is less about the exact numbers, the $1 million was recent, before it was $250K, after Jan 1st, atm nothing prevents them from saying "its actually going to be $50K and 10K installs before you pay" or make it from 15 cent a install to 20 cents or make more changes to the Personal or Pro license plan - they done a lot of damage control now, but doesnt mean they will keep it that way, they could... But they also could not

Its also nice the ToS (currently) will apply to each LTS version of the engine so you have a choice to upgrade, though im concerned if they release a stable version of a feature thats only available in a future LTS, essentially forcing you to upgrade if you need that feature or want to try it for a project, for ongoing projects, im sure thats less of a problem now, but it might be for future projects

[lunar perch]

It's business though, and to be fair their first publication wasn't bad. I don't know where people derived the "retroactive installs" thing either. That seems purely hype.

Here's the article straight from the horse's mouth:

https://blog.unity.com/news/plan-pricing-and-packaging-updates

Also, there is a legality issue with that even if it were true.

You can't tell someone their old purchases are now a higher price tag and therefore they'll need to pay the difference in price on all old purchases. There is a "reasonableness" criteria in contract law.

To your point about games impacted by this... let's list them!

Hollow Knight is probably one of the major ones, with like 6 million copies sold... then again the revenue on that game is like $100 million not accounting for discount sales.

Hearthstone and Pokemon Go are others

F2P mobile games would be interest because of the in-app purchasing

[hollow sage]

It is not purely hype.
The article you linked has been edited multiple times at this point (as stated in its edior's notes), and does not represent Unity's original announcement.

Of course, enforcing those changes retroactively would legally be more than troublesome; someone at Unity seems to have realized that as well, because they did delete the github repository they had to archive previous versions of thwir ToS - which since (I think) 2017 have had a paragraph preventing retroactive changes.

[lunar perch]

I can’t confirm or deny if the article has been changed. The editor’s notes sound more like, “below is obsolete,” rather than then changing the original text, but that doesn’t mean they didn’t change some of it either.

[lunar perch]

https://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/16hnibp/unity_silently_removed_their_github_repo_to_track/

Old terms are still binding to some extent. Contracts are only as strong as the will of a party to uphold it… looking at Epic games, I’m curious if the “no commissions on first six months of sales,” is worth not having your game listed in Steam. Steam’s 30% commissions is a chunk. Epic Games and UE take 12% and 5%, respectively, it sounds like.

[teal solar]

It's mainly the loss of trust at this stage

[lunar perch]

Yea

The more I’m thinking on the TOS change / deletion the more I’m thinking it is t about the money which is what most people were saying.

[teal solar]

I think at one stage (not saying this is you) people were saying something similar - "this will never affect you" - when the rule was $200,000 lifetime revenue and that was kinda infuriating lmao

I think a lot of people don't want to be millionaires - they just want to replace their current income with indie dev income (and I think that's a realistic goal)

[lunar perch]

Really the money needs to be left out of the conversation. This is purely about their blatant disregard for upholding their old contracts in good faith.

I’m starting to think about what switching to UE would look like

[grave fractal]

UE is primarily targeted at bigger projects or AAA games

and while it's a good game engine

it's not the best for smaller projects, it's just not built for them

[subtle grotto]

define AAA

[coarse ginkgo]

its people with a high budget right

[subtle grotto]

what classifies as "high" budget

[coarse ginkgo]

idk you tell me

[subtle grotto]

Why? I'm not the one who used the term AAA

[lunar perch]

I see smaller indie game devs working in it all the time. SovereignDev and Kindred Games for example

Not sure you have to be big to use UE

[subtle grotto]

I wish people would stop saying games are "AAA" or "indie" because it doesn't really tell you much

[lunar perch]

Indie to me just means a smaller company

[coarse ginkgo]

if its triple A its probably trash

[lunar perch]

1-20 devs probably

[lunar perch]

Yea just look at Diablo 4

No one plays that anymore

AAA is usually just the credit rating of a company

[subtle grotto]

It devalues games as an art form. When people refer to "AAA games" (whatever the hell that means), people almost put them on a pedestal. Like they're these massive amazing projects that can only be accomplished by large teams (which is ridiculous because plenty of smaller teams have made fantastic games) and usually games like Call of Duty get dumped in there and that franchise is dogshit. But there are good games out there that most would categorise as "AAA".

"Indie" is the same but the opposite - it implies the games didn't have the budget to be good, which is equally ridiculous because there are some absolute gems that people would classify as "indie", but also equally there are dogshit games too

[lunar perch]

Not sure credit rating is correct but it’s like a BBB company or bbb means they are higher risk and less well established thus more risky an investment. My guess is the AAA designation was just stolen for this

[subtle grotto]

The names AAA/indie tell you absolutely nothing

[coarse ginkgo]

indie devs care about their community

[subtle grotto]

I mean maybe it tells you something about the budget or team size, maybe, if that's the definition you use. But that really tells you nothing about the quality of a particular game

[subtle grotto]

But that's why I asked this. People have different definitions - so not only does it tell you nothing, it's also a wildly inconsistent modifier to use in the first place

[lunar perch]

AAA (just looked this up) is a credit quality score for the quality of risk with a company. My best guess was whoever used this first was thinking a AAA title meant you ran a low risk of being disappointed in the game.

Like Zelda, Final Fantasy,…

[teal solar]

Yeah I know a few people that define AAA and Indie based on their graphics and it's.... not great

[subtle grotto]

Yeah that's fucking stupid

[lunar perch]

Hahaha

[subtle grotto]

Stray can be considered "indie", depending on your definition of indie

And that game has amazing graphics

[teal solar]

I know someone who says Baldur's Gate 3 is indie

[lunar perch]

Wait what? BG3 has dumped huge $$$ into that game haha

[teal solar]

And it was made with a higher headcount than Skyrim

[lunar perch]

Larian Studios isnt AAA therefore INDIE 🤣

[teal solar]

I think that was based on the company structure

because they are their own publisher

[subtle grotto]

And therein lies the problem the AAA/indie qualifier tells you literally nothing because now we're into the discussion of graphics. Stop bundling good and bad games together, stop categorising them using useless labels. Evaluate each game, as it is, and judge it on its own merit

Point I was making was that KGamer said that UE is targeted at AAA studios and that's just nonsense because the word AAA is not meaningful

It's targeted at just.... studios

[grave fractal]

you don't it's just going not going to be as comfortable as other engines

[lunar perch]

I really think it just comes down to risk. AAA titles are more likely to be accepted by the masses, indie games are hard sells because of the risk of it being poorly made.

[teal solar]

Honestly AAA vs Indie only makes sense in terms of development mindset/scope

[grave fractal]

what i mean by AAA is something made with a huge budget, not sure where to draw that line between AAA and AA budget, but at least it's wildly different from Indie, which is often defined as no budget at all or paying out of pocket

[lunar perch]

Yea I’m struggling with that. Part of me wants to put my faith in the big companies that have establish legal shields to defend the general users of Unity against Unity themselves.

[subtle grotto]

But UE is free to use

So how does budget impact anything

[teal solar]

I swapped to Godot because the workflow suits me better

[subtle grotto]

In fact Epic/Unreal even offers a lot more starter content than Unity. Have you seen the megascans library? Jesus christ

[grave fractal]

team members? you have to pay people to work for you, i don't know too much about unreal engine but i think it's much more suited for huge teams

[lunar perch]

Yasahiro will probably ask you, “but what do you mean by scope?”

Lol

[grave fractal]

not trying to say unreal is bad or unusable for indie devs or something

[subtle grotto]

Mmm no? It's suitable for anyone

[grave fractal]

it is

[subtle grotto]

Why would it not be suitable for small teams?

[grave fractal]

i'm not saying it isn't

[teal solar]

Lilith Walters (well known on twitter ig) is a solo dev using Unreal

She made the Bloodborne demake and is making Bloodborne Cart

[lunar perch]

Define the difference between Zelda and Hollow Knight

I’m curious how you’d separate two legendary games

[subtle grotto]

wh

[grave fractal]

i'm just saying it's more suitable for bigger teams, it's target auditory are huge teams (i could be wrong, but i think what im saying isn't too confusing)

[subtle grotto]

One is Zelda, the other is Hollow Knight

There's the difference

[grave fractal]

yeah its wild to compare the two

they're not even the same genre

[lunar perch]

To me Zelda is AAA because it comes from a line of quality Zelda games. Hollow Knight was indie but will be a AAA title in future installments

[grave fractal]

that's.. not really how the term is used, at least not commonly

[subtle grotto]

That's so subjective though

Not everyone likes Zelda

[coarse ginkgo]

i hate zelda

[subtle grotto]

It's a "quality" game, for you

[lunar perch]

Zelda has low risk to disappoint, Hollow Knight was a wildcard but has proven to be a great game.

[grave fractal]

Balan Wonderworld is AAA, it's neither good nor comes from a well-known or well-liked series

[lunar perch]

Can we ban this guy now? (Kidding)

https://tenor.com/view/how-dare-you-greta-thunberg-gif-15130785

[coarse ginkgo]

i dont really like hollow knight either

[subtle grotto]

To me it just seems like you're asking to compare the difference between apples and a hammer

[grave fractal]

im going to have to agree on this one, it's really well made and is very charming but it's just not very fun for me

[coarse ginkgo]

one is edible the other isnt

[grave fractal]

true^

at least not with that attitude

[subtle grotto]

Everything is edible if you believe hard enough

[grave fractal]

everything is edible

only once (somethings are edible more than once)

[subtle grotto]

NB: I am not a dietician please do not take my word as truth. Eating a hammer may negatively impact your digestive system please see the nutritional info on the hammer's packaging for more information

[grave fractal]

you could get food poisoning, OOOR you could eat a lead hammer and get lead poisoning too! two for one, what a deal!

[lunar perch]

My point is the hollow knight has 6 million sales, 310k positive reviews on steam… the likelihood of people buying the next game and being disappointed is low.

[grave fractal]

how does that make sense

if anything you would be more likely to be disappointed if a sequel isn't up to par with the first game

[teal solar]

AAA is when the studio has money? ._. what

[grave fractal]

there's a middleground between AAA and indie commonly referred to as AA

general consensus is that the concepts are separated by budget

[coarse ginkgo]

AA is a car breakdown service

[subtle grotto]

So you're doing exactly what I said is stupid - you're saying Hollow Knight is shit because it's indie, when that's just not true. If a game is shit, it's because the game is shit

[subtle grotto]

^^^

Or you are saying it's good

Whatever

Point is the "indie" label tells you nothing

[grave fractal]

indie has never implied good or bad

i still believe indie just tells whether or not the game was made on a budget, but since it's such an undefined term, i guess your point does make sense

[lunar perch]

No I’m saying it comes down to the risk of buying from the developer. Hollow Knight as far as I know is pretty new to the scene so it was an indie title, but now it has a huge following that means they are likely to make another smash hit. So their next title will be AAA. Like Elder Scrolls used to be indie. Then Oblivion came out and people loved it. So when Bethesda released Skyrim there was a low risk of it sucking.

[bright zealot]

Sacking Riccitiello is such a W

[bright zealot]

Unreal is 100% small team and solo friendly these days and tons of tooling is set around cutting out the need for dedicated people to do things like LODs etc

The only engine remaining that's really "only suited for huge teams" is CE, which requires you to have specialized disparate knowledge in several languages and tools to use it (Flash + C++ + Lua + their crazy asset pipeline that needed Max, Photoshop with special plugins, etc)

[grave fractal]

i didn't say it was only suited for huge teams, i just said that it's targeted at them, its supposed to be comfortable for those kinds of teams, i never said it wasn't suited for small projects, just that it's less ideal for smaller projects than other engines (especially with that 1GB export size)

[bright zealot]

It's definitely not targeted at bigger teams either anymore, just bigger games

Epic's really focused on the Indie with lots of the recent tooling as well as the AAA

[grave fractal]

sorry yeah that's what i've initially said and got lost in all the "AAA vs Indie" debate that's been going on

[bright zealot]

Fair yeah

[grave fractal]

anyway that's the take i'm leaving it on as i go to sleep, good night

[bright zealot]

I mean it broadly indicates the project was made on a more restricted budget (not inherently but often something that comes with the territory of being independent ie not chained to an entity with tons of money to throw at them), which depending on the scope of the project can indicate quality.
In very very general terms, big ambitious games that are indie skew towards being crap because the studio is overextended, and big ambitious games that are AAA skew towards being crap because they're uninspired. But that's so beyond generalized that it doesn't say anything about any individual project with either label

[bright zealot]

Unreal developers cost a LOT more than Unity ones at least here in Canada

A unity C# dev will run you 60k for a junior up to 120k for a senior and an Unreal C++ dev will run you 70-80k for a junior up to 130-150 for a senior

[grave fractal]

less competition i assume

though that's not what that original message was referring to

[bright zealot]

partially less competition, partially because it's just a different skillset and employers already generally have to pay more to get someone experienced in C/C++ and reigning it in, compared to C#

[bright zealot]

Was responding to the "UE is free to use, how does budget effect anything" part to just add the detail that UE typically means higher staff costs which add up over time and how that itself may make UE slightly less suited to indie but not much

[native mesa]

are we all going back to using unity now ?

[golden finch]

Nah

I find Godot better for me

[native mesa]

respect your opinion

but, tbh unity > godot, in many ways

[teal solar]

I feel like going back to Unity is just waiting for them to do this again

I moved to godot last year when they did the Ironsource and "devs who don't use ads are fucking idiots" scandals

and then I moved back in october

now that I've moved again I'm just staying gone

The whole thing has really highlighted that they don't care about the users - just the stock price and their profits

I'd argue that they've had more scandals than notable new features

[bright zealot]

Building your entire production flow around one company that can do whatever they want and have a legal fiduciary responsibility to maximize shareholder profit because the scapegoat CEO was removed even though every single board member/other executive who pushed these changes and supported it is still there is, frankly, an incredibly stupid idea

Same with Epic, they're under financial strain too at the moment and I'm watching closely for when to jump ship to O3DE (and just deal with implementing lots of stuff myself and contributing upstream to the engine for a while throughout production)

[bright zealot]

unfortunately, you're spot on - as a public company they are obligated to prioritize the shareholders, not the customers

[crisp ice]

The CEO stepping down alleviates this fear for me

[bright zealot]

Why?

The CEO doesn't have majority control over the company, and he's not the sole person responsible for pushing it

Their board is still full of ironsource guys etc who pushed this and agreed with it

Getting rid of a scapegoat everyone knows is just a PR move to win back gullible people + because this hurt their profits/share price

[crisp ice]

I figure it was mostly his fault

[bright zealot]

Sort of, he did the Ironsource merger which ultimately lead to the shift in board composition that allowed this

But those people are ALL still there in voting positions

[golden finch]

True, I can make this choice only because I'm just a hobbyist.

[gentle void]

https://youtu.be/zh-jxx5v3vs?si=Bd4U2V1gO87Ul0oY

[grave fractal]

It's subjective and varies on a case by case basis, I find Godot much better than Unity, even if Unity has more tools, Godot has everything that I need and has a nicer workflow

[grave fractal]

Same

[native mesa]

ok yee ur right

[native mesa]

ok, maybe godot 4.1 is actually cool

[lofty python]

So do you all go back to Unity now?

[gentle void]

Never ditched it, so yh I'm still on Unity.

[queen lagoon]

I don't trust the company enough to just go back

[native mesa]

same

[knotty jackal]

i tried godot long time ago and i think ill stick to it

[golden finch]

It's wayyy too convenient for 2d especially

only trouble I've found recently is that needing to build the project in C# for Exports to become visible kinda sucks but is ok

[grave fractal]

agreed, its so neat to use

[next wraith]

Any condensed version of this thread?

About 5000 comments, and many are irrelevant to unitys pricing change and are Off-topic.

[glad narwhal]

Check pinned messages

[subtle grotto]

https://unity.com/blog/unity-is-canceling-the-runtime-fee

The controversy is over.

[coarse ginkgo]

necro post smh

ban this guy

[green flume]

So, well, has anyone reconsidered upgrading to Unity 6?

[tribal cape]

I switched to godot yesterday

before the announcement

now i know that godot is better than unity

[languid tulip]

Neither engine is better, Unity has a much more mature toolset and vastly more tutorials and documentation, but godot has a less steep learning curve and a very active and engaged community

[subtle grotto]

Optional splash screen is pretty nice. And we have new Awaitable type

[green flume]

Can't wait to try the Awaitable class again once the beta ends
I've tried once and tbf it is pretty neat.

[tall phoenix]

unitask all the way

[late oar]

Honestly, I only used Unity 6 to learn because I knew the changes wouldn't affect me for years.

[tribal cape]

i have been using unity for almost 2 years. It took me about a month to like it. It took 10 minutes for me to like godot. So godot is just superior. In my opinion JK

[rocky grove]

You think we should keep using Unity? new CEO new trust to gain isn't it?

[subtle grotto]

I think my opinion is irrelevant and you should use whatever engine you're most comfortable with

Since Riccitiello resigned, things seemed to have calmed down and maybe Unity is going in the right direction?

[rocky grove]

Well I like to hear what other people have to say

[subtle grotto]

I'd like to think there's some hope for it anyway

It's difficult to say whether this decision to cancel the runtime fee was in the interest of devs, or of shareholders, but either way it benefits devs all the same

[rocky grove]

and the shareholders too, everyone was pissed off at Unity, If the initial runtime fee was still applied people would have stopped using Unity

[stark notch]

[wet storm]

dayi,

[median grotto]

How much they charging per install this time

[queen lagoon]

0$

[rocky grove]

The same you pay for Unity Personal

[autumn skiff]

Afaik Unity no longer has royalties either
With the runtime fee cancelled, and basically no real benefit to upgrading to Pro (other than being forced), Unity doesn't have any feasible income.
As weird as it seems, Unity is going to go into a losing business model.

[celest verge]

Yeah they need to make money somehow. The current trajectory is not working

[storm granite]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/438385899873763328/1231787169891487815/video_20240422_082214_edit.gif

Yea idk abt
"Unity Editor Software Terms Update: Runtime Fee cancellation"
https://unity.com/blog/terms-update-runtime-fee-cancellation

It sounds good at a glance, if there's some more malicious changes there I'd be happy to hear 👍

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