Unity Pricing Changes - MEGATHREAD

[celest verge]

good to know

be back soon, gotta run though

[subtle grotto]

Are Ubisoft UK hiring?

[celest verge]

Probably

[celest verge]

welp

actually

https://www.gamedeveloper.com/business/ubisoft-is-shutting-down-its-london-studio

2 days ago

(X

There are 3 others in the UK though, in Guildford, Newcastle and Warwickshire and Royal Leamington Spa

You could check linkedin/ubisoft website for any openings

[ancient kernel]

Like @celest verge said, have a portfolio with lots of game-related stuff in it.
However, if programming is your main discipline, I would advise that you focus on developing examples of specific game features (like inventories, as you mentioned) rather than spending the time to make full games. Since games require many different components including art and game design, which won't help you to spend significant time on if you're looking for a programming job.

If you have examples of projects that you have worked on as part of a team with other people, that will also look good and demonstrate your capability of working with others.

Also as Warp suggested, having variety in your portfolio is important to show your flexibility. Build features from lots of different kinds of games.

[subtle grotto]

A bleak yet potentially realistic outlook on the whole situation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDPPig9JR5Y

[molten lodge]

I'm getting into gamedev for fun. Is it practical to learn Unity now?

[ancient kernel]

https://x.com/FreyaHolmer/status/1703138357256032630?s=20

Freya the stray ✈ Dutch Game Day, Oct 4-5 (@FreyaHolmer)

some of my thoughts on our meeting with unity
https://t.co/6op8P9MNx1

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1152

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168

Twitter · Sep 16, 2023, 8:06 PM

an update from a Unity insider

[subtle grotto]

Freya Holmer is so good

[ancient kernel]

It's so cool of her willing to be a voice for and to the community at this time

like a hostage negotiator 😅

[subtle grotto]

I don't think I've said as such in this thread, but I genuinely do feel bad for the engineers and the other employees at Unity - I'm aware this isn't their fault. My anger is very much directed at the CEO and the other executives, and that's to whom I'm referring when I say I'm angry "at Unity (the company)", I'm angry at the suits

I would love for the engineers to quit and go make a new engine go work at their own company and make something even better

[ancient kernel]

upcoming: Division Engine

[subtle grotto]

[ancient kernel]

ever watch Halt and Catch Fire?

[subtle grotto]

I have not

[ancient kernel]

it's a drama series about tech companies in the early 80s

at one point, a bunch of the employees at a big computer company quit and go form their own company called "Mutiny"

it's very much like the scenario you described

[subtle grotto]

That's it, that's the name it should be

Mutiny Engine

[ancient kernel]

has a nice ring to it

could have a pirate mascot, or something

[subtle grotto]

#JoshPetersonForCEO

[celest verge]

Its not really a popular opinion right now but I still think if you're brand new and making games for fun its a perfectly fine engine to start with

The new pricing is really awful but doesnt affect newer developers, or developers making games without the intention of making money. Unity is still a really great engine to learn with, and many other engines have much higher learning curves than unity. Especially if you just want to make games for fun, personal games, or games without the intent of making money its still a great option. If your priorities shift though you may want to consider other options

[molten lodge]

Thanks. Don't see myself making games for money at the moment. Wanted to start off with Unity just because its easier to get into compared to other games engines and there are more resources.

[ancient kernel]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/760208272186802198/1152795289942507582/ditkkfi15eob1.webp

saw this posted in another server

[grave fractal]

Indie means a team working without a budget,
AA means a team working with a reasonable budget
AAA means a team working with a large budget

sorry, forgot to turn off ping, since you've already been answered there was no need to ping you

just wanted to note that to anyone who doesn't know this

also to elaborate more, i mean funded budget, paying out of pocket doesn't count for this

[tired oracle]

any news?

[tired oracle]

i dunno if he is solo i dont see a reason not to make a paid game in Unity, 200k is a lot for a single person and if fees are that bad you can upgrade to unity pro

[kind arch]

If fees are bad then how would they afford pro?

[hollow sage]

One possible issue is that many players will be hesitant to install Unity games now.
The company have not disclosed how they will track installs to charge developers, so who's to say that they won't force future Unity games to include a tracker of some sort - which might be (seen as) a breach of privacy by many.
Of course, this can only apply to newer versions of the editor, but explaining that to a player base may not be the easiest thing.

So even if you ignore the fees themselves, it may be difficult for new Unity games to establish themselves on the market.

[kind arch]

Besides you can make a free game just fine. It doesnt need to be paid if you are just learning
After some experience wanting to make money would become a hassle tho because this model makes it hard to plan out how much things will cost. It would be great to make 200k in revenue and have many installs but then you cant predict how many times people will install your game. How would you know how much you ate losing out on in the end? It makes it much more risky

[torn ridge]

I want to be profesional game dev you think i can continue learning unity or i need switch on a other engine?

[kind arch]

Now if they did a normal rev share model this would be easier to predict. But basing it on installs is just reckless

[kind arch]

Keep learning with unity. The skills you pick up from unity can be transferred elsewhere to other engines. Its not a waste of time. Once you begin making bigger games and put them on the market for money then depending on what happens in the end you could switch to another engine. But rn i think you are fine where you are

[torn ridge]

Hm ok 👌 tysm that really sad for unity why they made that they just kill unity

[tired oracle]

if you are solo, and make 200k of your game, is 2k that much ?

[tired oracle]

i dont think this is that big of an issue, most players dont care what/where your game was made, hell i dont even know where most games i have were made.
A lot of people dont care about their privacy either, if you have any kind of social media app then you dont have any privacy

[kind arch]

If you are solo and make 200k then
a) you are very lucky. Extremely even
b) where is the 2k coming from?

[kind arch]

People do care about privacy. Its just everyone is powerless on fixing the privacy issues. You can have a social media app and still have your data sold to some third party because the company is greedy even if you dont post anything

[tired oracle]

well...
a) i know, but i said in the original statement that it only works when you are solo, 200k might not be a lot for studios
b) if you make 200k, its in your bank account, and you dont want to pay fees, you just pay 2k for unity pro

[kind arch]

The fees still apply for unity pro too

[tired oracle]

but smaller and later

[kind arch]

200k isnt what you have in your bank account. You still need to pay taxes on it and other expenses. In the end you will have much less than 200k. Having to pay for pro every month (or whatever the time period is) adds up

[spiral moon]

Alr

[tired oracle]

ok lets account for taxes, Steam takes 30%, so you are left with 140k, i dont know what your income tax is, here its around 30% ( - all the expenses) assuming we have no expenses this leaves us we 98k
(Quick reminder this has nothing to do with unity, you would pay this regardless)

now 0.2$ per install may sound like a lot to some, I will assume the game is paid, 10$ seems like a fair price for an indie game, but wait, in that case we only sold 20k copies of the game, meaning only 20k installs (if not less). since we need 200k sold copies of the game (assuming everybody downloads the game), this means we make 2 Million $ (980k left after taxes and steam)

Unity Personal
now we can start paying 0.2$ per install, meaning we make 9.8$ per sale instead of 10$
now if we were to assume you sold another 100k copies of your game, you have to pay 20k to Unity, BUT you make 1 Million dollars (490k after taxes and steam)

Unity Pro (costs 2k/year)
Same thing only diffrence being now we have to sell 1 Million copies of the game to meet the requiremenets
Ignoring that we pay 0.15$ per install, meaning you pay 15k to Unity, BUT you make 1 Million dollars (490k after taxes and steam)

[bleak token]

any news this morning?

[spiral moon]

Don’t think so.

[bleak token]

hmm

[floral aspen]

microsoft lawyers too after finding out microsoft will be paying for games on game pass to unity

[toxic wasp]

so also steam take taxes?

[torn ridge]

Yes

[bleak token]

that has been like that since forever

[torn ridge]

Steam need win money too

[toxic wasp]

I didn't know, nice so also steam steal money from developers... for sure they don't use all money for keeping up their s***ty servers

[cursive torrent]

wot

[bleak token]

what the fuck

[cursive torrent]

How do you expect steam to like stay a float

charity?

[bleak token]

they use that 30% to keep up your steam page, the use of steam services such as multiplayer, workshop, etc, sometimes promoting your game, and many others

[toxic wasp]

they still get paid 100€ when you create an account, and they have extra founds from valve, I expected something like steam taxes but hey I don't care

[cursive torrent]

Thats like a one time fee

To my knowledge

you dont really expect it to be enough do u

[bleak token]

that's a one time fee so that 13 year old kids don't start submitting their first games to steam

[cursive torrent]

Like here steam, a 100€

Dont spend it all on one day

[toxic wasp]

yeah, correct, but 30% is a lot

[bleak token]

no it's not

it's completely reasonable for the amount of services they provide you

[toxic wasp]

I don't think so, but ok, I don't judge anyone

[cursive torrent]

arguing about the 30% is fair

but saying a one time 100€ is enough is absurd

[bleak token]

then go and publish your game to epic or something if you really don't like that 30%

[toxic wasp]

nah, bro I'm gonna host on my servers

[bleak token]

yeah and where will you publish your game?

[toxic wasp]

real

[bleak token]

itch?

[toxic wasp]

it will be a problem when it will be a problem

[cursive torrent]

I mean do as you wish if you think steam wont be helping with selling more copies

or not enough to make up for the 30% fee

[bleak token]

for epic games it's 12% only, but fuck the epic launcher

[toxic wasp]

yes, bcs mine the game, mine the rules

[cursive torrent]

epic launcher is incredibly shitty its crazy

I’d never buy a game on epic games if it’s available on steam for same price

[bleak token]

so true

[toxic wasp]

lol

[bleak token]

and being epic games exclusive is also bad

so basically steam is the only reasonable option if you want to sell your game

because let's be honest, noone actually buys games on itch

[cursive torrent]

Also idk how things like early access and demos works in epic games

I’ve only seen it in steam

[toxic wasp]

why in the first place are you talking about epic games?
and why you guys are so obsessed with steam? honestly I think steam and epic games are pretty much the same thing, just one is more popular and has more functions than the other

[cursive torrent]

How well do you think a game like csgo could move to epic games

It entirely relies on steam market

[bleak token]

also fun fact: the epic games sdk is dogshit for unity, I have tried it out

[toxic wasp]

bro have you literally said that? do you know that cs go is made by valve? and valve owns steam?

[cursive torrent]

Sure but doesnt change the fact that steam has way more features than epic games

[glad narwhal]

Steam is way better than Epic, just starting from it's interface, friends, workshop and so on. The only thing that I like about Epic is that they give a lot of free games

[cursive torrent]

Crab game relies mostly on steam market

[bleak token]

lmao

[cursive torrent]

It doesn’t change the fact that epic games lacks so many features

Like also being able to interact with a community

[toxic wasp]

bro I'm exiting this conversation because you guys want to win over an argument that has no sense to talk about when I will not change idea that easily

[cursive torrent]

what

sure fam

[zealous cypress]

cant you just not update the runtime ?

[bleak token]

yeah that's a funny thing, I have no clue how they want older runtime versions to report this information

[zealous cypress]

bruh moment

[torn ridge]

They use money for paid the people who work at steam...

[golden finch]

To be honest, somehow I'd recommended Godot for newbies lmaoo. Their GDScript learning resources are pretty good

There's fairly good docs and community support too tbh

[bleak token]

so true the docs are great and also built into the engine which is funny

[golden finch]

It's an electron app isnt it? Those freaking download sizes

[zealous cypress]

i think the money thing should be a thing ||(BUT WITH A FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK OF BALENCING)||
because crap game and genshin impact are giving unity the same amount of money
( genshin impact makes A LOT of money)
but the thing is that u cant track the games right
like how is it going to find out if the game was pirated or not
and that makes it IMPOSSIBLE

[bleak token]

*impossible legally

[toxic wasp]

twitter 2.0

[zealous cypress]

cant wait for discord to make server owners give them money

[torn ridge]

X*

[subtle grotto]

I've made a new thread to discuss Unity alternatives, #1152974616273375243 message. I've listed a few engines there already. This thread should be strictly used for discussing the pricing change decision from now on.
If you want to talk about alternatives, or have any other alternatives I've not suggested, keep it in that channel.

[bleak token]

https://unitedgamedevs.com/ oh hey they did actually make this lmao

[torn ridge]

Ahah

[ancient kernel]

the 2k per year per seat is coming from the 200k+ that you're already making

you can switch to Pro license once you're reaching that level, you don't have to sign up to it today

[native mesa]

😎

[grand mural]

So i am following a godot tutorial from udemy. It's... different. Maybe just something i need to get used to, but the simple stuff like make a prefab with sprite and collider and stuff. seems a bit 'complicated' as in to many steps for such a simple thing lmao

[limber sluice]

@subtle grotto - Something which has come to my attention is that Proton (Windows emulation for Linux/Steam Deck) uses a virtual machine architecture. Every time it runs a windows game it spins up a new VM to run the game. This could result in a Unity Runtime reporting a first run/new install every time the game is run.

[viral gate]

that's not how Wine (Proton is still just Wine) works

there are no VMs

sure, there is a different Wine prefix for every game, but usually everyone's prefix stays the same after the first run, unless you deliberately delete it (which is possible on Windows too)

Wine is "simply" emulation

[limber sluice]

Fair enough, I'll stand corrected.

[crisp ice]

This got me wondering what would actually happen if Unity the company ceased to exist

[subtle grotto]

https://twitter.com/unity/status/1703547752205218265

Unity (@unity)

We have heard you. We apologize for the confusion and angst the runtime fee policy we announced on Tuesday caused. We are listening, talking to our team members, community, customers, and partners, and will be making changes to the policy. We will share an update in a couple of…

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651

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268

Twitter · Sep 17, 2023, 11:13 PM

[white oyster]

how do we feel about Code Monkey's analysis? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENoVL68z9PU

[lethal dagger]

So is this actually going to result in a meaningful change to the pricing fees? Or is this just a performative gesture to smooth things over and buy time while waiting for people to forget about this?

[subtle grotto]

Who can say

We'll just have to see

[ancient kernel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AF0dZCFIfBw

[sour jasper]

Man i am really woried what I should do. I learned unity now the last 4 years, made many different smaller or bigger games, wanted to build my carrer around it and now what.....

I also started to work and learn more about Unity in my university.
I am scared that everything goes downhill and it seems like it will.
What should I do? Switching to
Unreal? Godot? Man I don't know, why are always the dumbest people CEOs and are making decisions based on "How can I get more money".....

[golden finch]

Unity's just fine. The pricing hasn't been put into effect yet and larger companies will sue unity if it happens anyways

However, this does break a lot of people's trust in the Company and hence, the Engine so we can expect an increase in the usage of other game engines

At the end of the day, software development is a rapidly progressing industry and you shouldn't truly put all of your eggs in the same basket

So learn other engines, Unreal, Stride, Godot etc. Not because of panic and a sense of urgency but because of learning new stuff(annnd more stuff to add to your toolbox)

[golden finch]

Ay, don't worry so much but learn other stuff anyways

[grave fractal]

True ^

[queen lagoon]

should i learn them at the same time or just do a couple projects in one and then switch 🤔

[hazy timber]

I'm doing the latter, purely so I can get more experience in an engine and know if I pick it up later i'll have some memory of how to use it rather then mixing it up with other engines all the time

honestly, maybe its time we all become basic AF & start making pure JS webview desktop games (im kidding, but also not kidding)

[queen lagoon]

at this point, it might even be worth it to make your own custom game engine

[sour jasper]

Yea I thought trying GoDot would be great for me and also good to know.
Can someone recommend some tutorials or courses? I would Love to use it with C#😁

[hazy timber]

I've actually been considering this. With the number of Unity Engineers that have left the company over the last week, I would not be surprised to see some new minimalistic engines pop out of the wood works

[vocal shale]

I know this question is a bit random, but do you think Godot could become an actual big alternative in the future? I have been considering learning it now with all of the stuff happening but it kinda feels like it isn‘t really established as a big player as of now

Not to say that the engine is worse or that nobody uses it, I‘m just kind of unsure if it‘s worth learning considering its potential future

Aaaand it‘s just very appealing to learn due to C# when compared to Unreal

[hazy timber]

There is a lot of C# capable engines. But it comes down to what you want to do with it more than anything. Its best to keep an eye on Luan's twitter tho as he's put up a ton of info to clarify things for transitioning to Godot from unity & is actively telling the community of the state different features are in

[vocal shale]

I will, I actually haven‘t until now. Thx for the advice :)

[hazy timber]

gimme a second, I have the tab somewhere

https://twitter.com/reduzio/status/1703328476424548756

Juan Linietsky (@reduzio)

Here is a thread of threads with posts with design and architectural information to aid in migration to Godot for new users. Please share!
(read below 👇🧵)..

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1059

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302

Twitter · Sep 17, 2023, 8:42 AM

Mega thread breaking everything transitional down to a tweet thread (refuse to call them x threads)

[vocal shale]

Wow, thanks a lot again! Definitely going to take a look at it soon

[subtle grotto]

If you want some alternatives, #1152974616273375243 message
(keep in mind that thread isn't to talk about this pricing decision, it's merely for discussing other engines and their benefits/drawbacks)

[vocal shale]

I think I'll actually just slowly start dipping my toes into multiple different engines to see what sticks. I know that transitioning to alternatives is very challenging, but I think this would be a really good way to see what would be suited best for me

[subtle grotto]

100%

[vocal shale]

I really never would have expected that I'd have to consider abandoning Unity one day, but hey, as somebody else here already said once it's never the best idea to put all eggs in the same basket

[subtle grotto]

If you want to stay ahead in the industry, you need to be able to adapt. Everything in the tech world is fluid, so not investing all your energy into one engine is very beneficial

[vocal shale]

Yep exactly. If you spend so much time starting to learn one thing you kind of forget that there are so many other tools out there and that's also where I was until some time ago

[golden finch]

Just like how python suddenly became very popular

[subtle grotto]

I think a lot of people fall into that trap too, you're not alone. I've done it (stuck to one thing for ages and found myself in a difficult spot when I needed to change my tech stack)

[vocal shale]

And to be clear, as of now gamedev is still just a hobby to me, but just having the option to maybe one day be able to go professional is very comforting

[hazy timber]

I despise python

[vocal shale]

I actually had that a lot when learning other things as well (such as instruments), but yeah I think that's just natural

[subtle grotto]

Honestly I would suggest people make a bunch of different very small games (or even the same game) in multiple engines. That way you can complete more projects and you have a better portfolio because of it

Employers will see that and go "wow this person can adjust their workflow, they're able to use anything" and it reflects well on you

Doesn't have to be a huge game. Just... a game anything, because no matter what it means you're able to start and finish something and it doesn't matter what software you use to do it

[vocal shale]

Yeah that's basically the plan I'll try to follow from here on. And I think as always that finishing projects is just a great way to practice scoping, polishing etc

[subtle grotto]

For the same reason knowing multiple programming languages looks good on a resume

[vocal shale]

Oh that's also true, havent considered that yet lol

[golden finch]

My go to is bricks, simple, gives info about movement, input and collision. That or flappy bird 'cause gravity

[hazy timber]

I was going to do this, but my university basically rammed Unity down our throats, including in a unit (a class) all about the functionality of engines, they refused to let us actually do anything in terms of engine creation

[subtle grotto]

My go-to is pong

I've made Pong in more engines/frameworks than I care to count

[golden finch]

Haha

[subtle grotto]

Nice and simple

Sort of

[vocal shale]

I'm actually considering remaking/reimagining some small jam games I once made, just in another engine

[vocal shale]

Breakout is also a great one to practice hahaha

[subtle grotto]

Indeed, I think that's what Ghoul meant by "bricks"

Same thing

[vocal shale]

Oooh yeah makes sense lol.

[subtle grotto]

My uni had us use UDK

[vocal shale]

Wow that's antique lol

[subtle grotto]

Classic Unreal, the same as it has always been. L̷I̴G̸H̶T̶I̸N̸G̶ ̷N̵E̷E̸D̵S̵ ̷T̶O̵ ̷B̶E̴ REBUIL̵T̸

[golden finch]

The software looks like it can die in a garbage fire but the graphics seems cool

[subtle grotto]

It's Unreal before Unreal was like, a full editor

[vocal shale]

Yeah like I said, for now it's just a hobby in my case. I'd love to study gamedev but that's not really an option where I live

[subtle grotto]

Maybe they switched to UE5 now that would be cool

[vocal shale]

Hahaha exactly my thought lol

[hazy timber]

would honestly have preferred that. Instead we got 6 months of manually writing mesh data & manually implementing matrices. Which wasn't bad, but like, understanding more than basic transformations & mesh data woulda been nice

[golden finch]

manually writing mesh data
Oh dear

[subtle grotto]

That sounds painful but definitely useful to know

[vocal shale]

Anyway, thanks a lot again to everyone for your input. I'm definitely motivated to learn something new now, I'll share my progress every now and then :)

[hazy timber]

wasn't anything crazy. We just had to make some unique 2D shape, slap it on a renderer & use our own transformations to make it rotate & move while changing color in some format

[subtle grotto]

I wish you the best of success, whatever you decide to use 👍

[vocal shale]

You too man :)

[grave fractal]

GDQuest is basically the Brackeys equivalent for Godot

[delicate wave]

Can someone suggest me a channel which teaches basic of unreal engine implemented c++?

[frigid fossil]

Imagine if Brackey returns to talk about Unity

[delicate wave]

Would be epic

And emotional too 🤧

[subtle grotto]

I don't know why you're asking this in a thread about the unity pricing changes in the #1006674323458764851 channel

[delicate wave]

Well people did asked

Well mb

[subtle grotto]

We have links in the unreal faq

#faq_unreal

[delicate wave]

Oh thanks then

[glad narwhal]

DX9

[subtle grotto]

Yeah that was like 11 years ago

[ancient kernel]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/415426196415971330/1153286114644332554/image.png

[subtle grotto]

I am having a hard time believing that this was a mistake

[bleak token]

same

[subtle grotto]

There's no conceivable way that this is all just a "big misunderstanding" and they meant to do something totally different, because people were questioning everything and Unity were defending it

This isn't "we meant something else", this is "we meant what we said but we're gonna save face and change it and claim we meant something else"

was announced in a way that was hard to understand
- claiming it was a miscommunication

also missed a bunch of important "corner" cases
- so it wasn't a miscommunication, there was just zero forethought

[hazy timber]

even if it was a misunderstanding, you can only claim that after the first incident, but "clarifying" it just to see a worse response to change it back to the thing people were confused about just shows they got jack all clue wtf they meant to say, and that they aren't gunning for a good response, they're gunning for no questions & no outrage

[subtle grotto]

I also just completely disagree with the entire premise that the developer should be charged for the actions of a fucking end-user

"Some dude on the opposite side of the planet installed your game, cough up"

Why the fuck is that the developer's fault

There is no miscommunication here, the runtime fee is an idiotic and malicious idea, it always was, it cannot be sugarcoated to look better

[zealous cypress]

yeah i am not going to read all this shit
is unity ded or not ?

[subtle grotto]

Probably

Who knows

[hazy timber]

I also find it crazy how the original justification was "continuing development of the runtime"

[ancient kernel]

It was a mistake, because they didn't properly think it through.
Like he mentions, and has been mentioned by others before, is that their screw up resulted in the plan being "the opposite of what it was supposed to be". What it was supposed to be was a more equitable pricing situation where devs who make less money are paying less to use the engine (which they would), and those who make the most off the engine would be paying more of their fair share.
It was never a scam to gouge poor indies for money.

[subtle grotto]

I understand that, but they were warned by their own employees beforehand. They were warned by insiders. Everyone told them this was stupid and they still went ahead with it, they did not listen

[ancient kernel]

Just badly thought out and rushed, before even figuring out the details of if they could actually make it work.

[subtle grotto]

They're only changing it now because of community outrage, not because they recognised it was errant to begin wtih

[ancient kernel]

Yeah, they were stupid and dismissive, which lead to them fucking this up.

[native mesa]

yep

[slim scroll]

this mess of unity feels like south park episode, Randy and Towly come up with this idea while smoking weed

[subtle grotto]

Unity be like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u0EL_u4nvw

[ancient kernel]

One of the reasons why I've been able to keep a clear head through this whole thing is because I knew that if it's a plan they can't actually implement or enforce, then it'll all fall apart once they try. Regardless of whatever outrage they hear or don't hear.

[slim scroll]

hahahahaha

[grave fractal]

they're probably going to revert their new policy, but even then, nobody will genuinely support unity anymore, only people who are too attached to the tool itself, but nobody will say good things about the company, since it just doesn't make sense to

[hazy timber]

This wasn't a "oops, didn't foresee the consequences of my actions" moment, this was straight up ignorance to have ignored employees & not consult any other parties on the structure

[ancient kernel]

The impracticalities of the plan would have more of an effect on shutting it down than internet complaining.

[zealous cypress]

JUST STARTED UNTIY LAST WEEK AFTER A YEAR

NOW THE COMPANY GOS BOOM BOOM

🎩
🐴

[grave fractal]

yeah i have no idea why people trusted unity even after the whole ironSource thing back in 2022

[hazy timber]

reasonable, but the damage is done regardless of the viability of the scheme. The rats are jumping ship, and a revert will not bring most back on board

[grave fractal]

and y'know, the CEO calling people "f***king idiots"

[hazy timber]

I do feel sorry for the poor soul who had to deal with people adding John's picture to the page for "Greed" over the course of the 14th tho

[subtle grotto]

They also silently put in their terms that people who use their LevelPlay tech are exempt from the runtime fee, and people have said it's a move to kill a competitor named AppLovin

https://mobilegamer.biz/unity-is-offering-a-runtime-fee-waiver-if-you-switch-to-levelplay-as-it-tries-to-kill-applovin/

[hazy timber]

Don't forget he proposed the idea to charge players for each bullet fired in-game

[grave fractal]

for reloading i think it was

[hazy timber]

cause it is

[grave fractal]

allegedly the whole merging with ironSource was a move to kill AppLovin

[slim scroll]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZaFMv_jShQ

[zealous cypress]

I dont understand how did unity f up so bad
i cant f up this bad even if i wanted too

[grave fractal]

because allegedly ironSource and AppLovin are competitors, and AppLovin offered Unity like $2 billion i think, but unity decided to go with ironSource, who have offered less or something

[ancient kernel]

you gotta become a real CEO first

[zealous cypress]

🎩
🥦
👔

[grave fractal]

that's what happens when a former EA CEO that was fired for being TOO GREEDY EVEN FOR EA'S STANDARTS becomes a CEO of a different company

[zealous cypress]

soooo

how much is unitys ceo net worth ?

[hazy timber]

Like I saw someone said somewhere (cut me slack, its almost 1am)
When your customers, your customers customers & your partners are all unified against you, you seriously f__ked up

[grave fractal]

probably a lot since he sold most of unity's stock before the announcement

[ancient kernel]

no he didn't

the whole stock sale conspiracy has been debunked

[grave fractal]

oh

[ancient kernel]

https://www.youtube.com/live/nKGGEdLTQyg?si=BRKCkwXDszHrrGyG&t=3605

these guys explain it thoroughly at this timestamp

[glad narwhal]

Didn't Applovin try to buy Unity something like a year ago?

[subtle grotto]

I think, and Unity refused

iirc

[hazy timber]

^

[glad narwhal]

Yeah, some say they're trying to "kill" applovin by trying to remove them from as many games as possible and replace it with their LevelPlay and ads

[glad narwhal]

They offered $20B... and still refused as their market cap is $17B at this moment and the offer was made 1 year ago

[ancient kernel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RldfxBQErwM

I just saw this video pop up in my feed. This guy has some interesting thoughts to say about the definition of "indie", related to our conversation the other day

[subtle grotto]

Interesting take

[torn ridge]

Any news?

[ancient kernel]

https://tenor.com/view/woody-woody-toy-story-sora-kh3-kh-gif-27223516

I'd rather we wait to hear an actual plan from them

than have them keep trying to put little bandaids on a gaping wound

There is tentative news, though

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/unity-reportedly-tells-staff-details-of-runtime-fee-backtracking

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/415426196415971330/1153395728845127720/image.png

[subtle grotto]

instead asking users to self-report numbers.

okay

0

thanks unity

I like how they're not addressing the elephant in the room no offence to your mom

It's still not the dev's fault or responsibility for the actions of the user

[celest verge]

This is much much better

thank god

I really hope they go through with it

[ancient kernel]

just considerations so far, we'll have to wait to see what they actually decide

[subtle grotto]

I think it's time I update the OP with more current info

[celest verge]

Im sure they'll end up going through with the self reporting part, there is no way it would work in any other fashion

if nothing else

[ancient kernel]

in that case, developers would most likely self-report based on number of sales (something they can actually track)

[celest verge]

Yeah I imagine so

[subtle grotto]

oh my god I started writing, and I forgot I had Github Copilot enabled so it started generating a paragraph for me

[celest verge]

I think steam does track installs however

[subtle grotto]

This is genuinely what Copilot has written, I started with the words "> On September 12, Unity announced a change in their pricing model" - it went from there

On September 12, Unity announced a change in their pricing model that aimed to charge developers a fee for every new install of their game. This fee would be calculated based on the country where the game was installed, and would be charged for every new install after January 1st 2022. This announcement was met with a lot of backlash from the community, and Unity have since walked back on their decision, stating that they will not be charging for installs in 2022, but will be charging for installs in 2023. This is still a very controversial decision, and many developers are still unhappy with the change. Here's what we know so far:

2022 oops I forgot I edited it lol

[ancient kernel]

pour water all over that shit and short it out before the A.I.s take over

[subtle grotto]

stating that they will not be charging for installs in 2022, but will be charging for installs in 2023

[celest verge]

Theyre coming for your jobs

[subtle grotto]

OP has been updated

[ancient kernel]

For reference: Unity's current license terms https://unity.com/legal/editor-terms-of-service/software

[crisp ice]

[kind arch]

Hmm
Well this is an improvement

[crisp ice]

they could just fire the greedy cartoon villain they have as CEO

the cap is a step in the right direction I guess

still not paying them a cent tho

[kind arch]

They really did all this to announce revshare

[grave fractal]

Not sure if the following information is trustworthy, as I've just been recommended this news article randomly but here: https://www.gamesindustry.biz/unity-reportedly-told-dev-planned-parenthood-and-childrens-hospital-are-not-not-valid-charities

[willow dew]

this thread has the most messages out of any thread in this channel

[lethal rune]

i wonder why

[hollow sage]

The devs did make a Steam post about it a few days ago: https://steamcommunity.com/games/1114380/announcements/detail/7132068756342000700

[queen lagoon]

i thought I'd never see the day the unity box starts wearing a strapon

[golden finch]

Agreed

Rule 34 at it's finest

[hollow sage]

Yeah... wasn't sure whether to post the link here when I first found it, given the imagery.

But then again, it's censored and the rest of the content isn't really explicit. 🤷‍♂️

[pulsar goblet]

[severe lintel]

"confusion" 💀

[cursive torrent]

It was confusion

the announcement was horrible at explaining stuff

[severe lintel]

they themselves are confused 💀 they aren't even sure how they are gonna track the installs, they just "believe" they can

[cursive torrent]

Yeah the executives making decisions and not even listening to devs within the company is an issue

[ancient kernel]

that's how they're planning to collect the install fees

[queen lagoon]

hot

[zealous cypress]

me still talking about the unity fee knowing that i will never make over 1 mil from one game 🐴

🎩
🐴

[zealous cypress]

btw how are they going to know that you make over 1 mil ? ( from unity ads ?)

[bleak token]

yes

they would know from unity ads

from anywhere else idk

[ancient kernel]

if you're not using their services, then I imagine that revenue would be self-reported, like what currently happens
and they can contact and investigate obviously successful games that haven't been paying them

[bleak token]

this sounds like so much pain lmao

although definetly better than being potentially illegal

[ancient kernel]

being illegal is illegal!

[bleak token]

also here's my video on the fees themselves in case someone is still wondering what the hell "Emerging-market monthly share" means, I made it yesterday and then reuploaded it today due to some audio issues
https://youtu.be/urs0h2TQF5E?t=92

[subtle grotto]

Don't you love how Twitter now has fact-checking on shit

[grave fractal]

isn't emerging-market for like countries with decent to bad currencies

[subtle grotto]

But also Unity have announced a change in the policy

[bleak token]

idk the countries that were listed were all pretty large countries, and that usually means decent currency as well, so maybe?

[grave fractal]

yeah it seems to be that way

kinda like regional prices i guess

except less specific

[zealous cypress]

that means if u install with a vpn its better of the devs

[bleak token]

so true

[grave fractal]

i mean fair point

[bleak token]

WAIT A SECOND

HOW WILL WE KNOW WHERE THE INSTALLS COME FROM WHEN WE HAVE TO TELL THE NUMBERS?

[zealous cypress]

what is signficantly lower, flat install rate ?

[grave fractal]

they were going to use spyware but they've now decided that they won't

[grave fractal]

there's a chart im too lazy to get

its in the video redline made

[zealous cypress]

ok np

[grave fractal]

which means... analytics is the most we can get

[bleak token]

yeah especially after yasa removed it from the pinned message

if this is what we need, then it's in the video but in the intro

[zealous cypress]

that means the fbi can find u if u use unity game || shit thats bad they will find the corps||

[subtle grotto]

Because it's going to change

[bleak token]

yes I know but the links

[subtle grotto]

Which I have said twice now

[subtle grotto]

The links are incorrect though

I'm not going to give information about a pricing model that is no longer going to be in effect

We'll wait for Unity to announce what changes they're making and I'll update the OP again

[bleak token]

sure

[elfin ravine]

I guess it will be another weird change announcement.

[bleak token]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQK23sAJ2y8 applovin is gaming lmao

[ancient kernel]

https://tenor.com/view/i-am-mclovin-fogell-mclovin-christopher-mintz-plasse-superbad-gif-17098282

[coarse ginkgo]

MCLOVIN

[native mesa]

bard :
Yes, you are correct. Unity cannot just change its Terms of Service (TOS) for existing users without their consent. The TOS is a contract between Unity and its users, and both parties must agree to any changes.

If Unity makes changes to the TOS that are not favorable to existing users, those users have the option to continue using the old TOS. However, they may not be able to access new features or content that is released under the new TOS.

Unity should also be transparent about any changes that it makes to the TOS. It should give users enough notice of the changes so that they can have a chance to review them and decide whether or not they want to continue using Unity's services.

I agree that terms should apply to newer versions. This would ensure that all users are treated fairly and that they know what to expect when using Unity.

I hope this information is helpful. Please let me know if you have any other questions.

if only unity used bard before doing anything

[severe lintel]

lmao i can imagine AppLovin CEO telling his employees "wouldn't be funny if we made a tool that makes more devs say fuck off to unity"

[zealous cypress]

:trollface:

[severe lintel]

W terraria devs

[subtle grotto]

That is so very good of them

They weren't affected, Terraria wasn't made in Unity. But at least they acknowledge this whole mess, that's good

But jesus fucking christ 100k each to both Godot and FNA, that's gotta be a great sign for things to come

[bleak token]

godot pog

[molten tree]

Let's hope all this recent development leads to great things to come from Godot

[willow dew]

where's my 100k for jest

[hazy timber]

Red, Cenx & the rest of the team were pretty banger already. Now I just have unfathomable respect for them all

[torn ridge]

What is FNA?

[pulsar goblet]

game library thingy which is based on the Microsoft XNA game library

[torn ridge]

Ok ty

[gentle void]

I don't wanna believe this is real >.>

[subtle grotto]

Of course it's not real

You really think a huge company with a PR team would publish a statement that ended "Shut the fuck up and take it." ?

[hollow sage]

I mean, they also deliberately publicly announced a business decision that was so badly thought-out that it may just have jeopardized the company.

I wouldn't put it past them at this point, to straight-up tell the community "go f yourselves".

[coarse ginkgo]

honestly the ceo would 100% say that though

[subtle grotto]

I mean

you're both right

But in this case no it's fake

[steep knoll]

this is the fake news and if unity announce something it would be announced on officially on X (Twitter)

[karmic urchin]

No shit

Did you read the whole thing lmao

[subtle grotto]

@steep knoll

[steep knoll]

@subtle grotto well noted ✅️

[bleak token]

LMAO

[subtle grotto]

That's not hard to do anymore

It's 8 bucks to be "verified"

[bleak token]

god damn

[steep knoll]

It's not the true news .. if you want to verify please visit unity site ..

[subtle grotto]

What are you talking about

That account isn't giving any "news"

They're not trying to pass themselves off as Unity, y'know.

[kind arch]

Their logo should be on fire

[bleak token]

so true

[subtle grotto]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOpYnuIpjgk

[bleak token]

yasa can we get a quick summary because I can't be bothered to watch 9 mins of guy looking at a camera with no text on screen

[subtle grotto]

This video makes a really interesting point

Oh he's just talking about the announcement Unity made about retracting the thing

But he touches on another subject I find really fascinating

The engine's logo is one you should wear as a badge of honour. Godot, Unreal, all these other engines, they don't force you to show the splash screen. And yet you'll always see games made in those engines with a splash screen, because the devs are proud of it and want to give a shoutout

Meanwhile Unity devs will pay through the nose to remove the splash screen

They do not wear the logo with honour, they try their best to distance themselves from it

[bleak token]

yeah that's interesting

[subtle grotto]

And this has always been the case

This should've been a huge red flag from day 1 that Unity is not a good engine or company

[bleak token]

but now people will start putting "made with godot" on their games

[subtle grotto]

Maybe my game can have a "Proudly not made with Unity" splash screen

[bleak token]

yeah that could be hilarious if they get the joke

[subtle grotto]

It's weird, beacuse I am one of those people if I could've afforded it, I would've paid for Unity Plus to remove the splash screen

But if I make a game in Unreal I will gladly put the engine's logo in the credits

Because Epic have given users the choice, they aren't forcing it. And that choice alone makes me want to do it anyway, in good faith

[bleak token]

yeah I'll probably end up putting the godot logo somewhere in my project, I don't see a reason to not promote the engine after using it for that long (talking about the future)

[subtle grotto]

Also apparently Unity are introducing a revshare model

[bleak token]

amazing

should have done that from the start

[subtle grotto]

Keeping the installation thing, but no longer will it track installs - you have to self-report. I don't know how the fuck you self-report install count without tracking the damn installs, but sure whatever

But their revshare will be 4%

Probably as a middle finger to Unreal's 5%

[bleak token]

I mean doesn't steam like show you how many copies you sold?

[subtle grotto]

Or, as the guy in the video points out, it could instead be because Unity know they aren't as good and so can't justify an equal 5%

[subtle grotto]

Yeah but sales count != install count

Just self report 0

[bleak token]

the install count sounds so bs why couldn't it just be sales

[subtle grotto]

"Yeah my game got a million sales but literally no one has installed or played it fuck you"

[bleak token]

yeah it's just a game asset trust me bro

[subtle grotto]

wait

What if you distribute it as a portable/standalone build

not an installer

The user never "installs" the game, they'd just run it

Install count is 0

Checkmate atheists

[bleak token]

[karmic urchin]

The current CEO did also straight up call anyone who doesn't prioritize monetization with their games "fucking idiots"

[crisp ice]

Personally I don't care if my games have the splash screen, even before this pricing nonsense

Don't see why everyone's so eager to remove it

[bleak token]

yes that has been talked to death already

[crisp ice]

[karmic urchin]

Based

[karmic urchin]

I was more talking to this person

Lmao

[crisp ice]

Like I get unity games have a reputation for being unpolished asset flips but I would hope gamers understand that not every unity dev is lazy

[grave fractal]

that has reminded me that i wanted to add a little "made in godot" on the main menu of two of my games and i forgot....

[subtle grotto]

YOOO let's fucking GO oops wrong channel

[grave fractal]

huh? what is this yasa

[subtle grotto]

my credit score

[grave fractal]

what's a credit score

i mean congrats regardless!

i'm still confused though

[subtle grotto]

oh shit I thought I was in #chat

Oh well

[hidden totem]

man, i forgot i went to this server.
anyways, even if i haven't even made money this price change seriously scares me with what may happen later on

[crisp ice]

I hope nintendo just destroys them

[hidden totem]

feels like there's already a line wanting to do that

[zealous cypress]

fr

[glad viper]

I don't think that this price change will affect people THAT much. I mean, it's only 20c. So long as you charge like 5$ on Steam, you're fine. If you do the maths, it used to be 3.50$ on Steam per user, now it's 3.10$ per user, and that's assuming that each Steam account has 2 users, which is quite pessimistic.

[subtle grotto]

The price change is not 20 cents per sale

It's 20 cents per install

That's the reason for all the outrage

Because some bad actor could create a rogue script to just batch install a single game like a thousand times

Or a million I mean who cares it's code it can run forever

[hidden totem]

also how they tracking it is quite sketchy that it makes people believe they're giving out some sketchy app

though later they asked it to be reported to them, i think

[kind arch]

Didnt they say that user installs would be self reported?

[subtle grotto]

Yes but how the fuck are you gonna self report it

How are you gonna get metrics for that

[hidden totem]

yeah, that's the recent thing, before it was "magical" way

[subtle grotto]

Unity are just fobbing off the responsibility of tracking installs to the devs, and so now it's devs who have to do questionable shit

This is not a good change to the pricing

[kind arch]

"Did you install this game? Y/N"

[hidden totem]

but still, self report is kinda odd cause you can't track installs, just track downloads

[zealous cypress]

i cant wait until someone finds a bug with unitys runtime and make a dev bankrupted

[kind arch]

This company is so fucked

[zealous cypress]

fr

[hidden totem]

"we know if this guy installs it again" is a dumb thing, cause people already said "well install it in a virtual machine over and over again" will bypass it

[kind arch]

They should make unity open source

That way the company can go under but we can still have the game engine

[hidden totem]

i actually don't know what to say to that

[zealous cypress]

another thing i cant wait is the Nintendo law team come and bankrupted unity

[kind arch]

Oh yea that will be interesting

Nintedo loves lawsuits after all

[glad viper]

Yeah, but even with two devices per account (2 installs) it's not that much.

[glad viper]

They've said that install bombing won't count towards your fee.

[crisp ice]

Yeah true that's the best possible outcome imo

I don't wanna lose this tool

If the company goes poof will the engine still be usable?

[subtle grotto]

They've said a lot of things. There's no way to detect it

They also claimed that pirated installs won't be counted - which suggests they've somehow solved piracy which is literally impossible

If you had tech that could solve piracy you would be worth fucking billions, that would change the industry

[glad viper]

They have said that they will do it on a case-by-case basis, and try to minimise pirated installs.

[subtle grotto]

Yeah I severely doubt they have the resources to have people handle the hundreds of thousands of people reporting fraudulent installs

[marsh loom]

I hope

[subtle grotto]

But still doesn't stop the fact that install bombing is impossible to detect. It's not hard to spin up a VM with fake machine info, install a game, shutdown the VM and spin up a new one

A gamedev company could utilise an entire server for this, and run a competitor out of business

[glad viper]

Unity, according to their FAQ, will handle it on a case-by-case basis, just like the piracy thing.

[subtle grotto]

Well not anymore because rumour has it they are switching to a self-report model

Which is equally bad if not worse

[bleak token]

but at least it's not impossible™️

[crisp ice]

[zealous cypress]

vhat that mean

[subtle grotto]

Meaning Unity claims it will no longer track installs, it will be the devs/publishers to report install count

[hidden totem]

self report

[subtle grotto]

Something which you literally cannot do

No dev knows how many times someone installs the game

[lucid hatch]

~ perl / raku entering the chat to spin up VMs automatically at ridiculous speeds ~

[zealous cypress]

you know , just trust unity

[marsh loom]

steam don't give you this stat?

[subtle grotto]

Not everyone uses steam

[marsh loom]

right

[hidden totem]

well downloads is kinda trackable, install is kinda a weird one

[zealous cypress]

34.69 of ppl be like

[glad viper]

I'd say the Unity Runtime will detect the first time it's run on a device, and report it to Unity, and if the PC number matches, it's not counted.

[lucid hatch]

while steam is very big it is also quite expensive to get your game on steam, so many indie devs will choose for it to not be on steam to start

[subtle grotto]

Installs are literally not trackable. Suppose you distribute your game's installer on itch.io - a user downloads it. Okay you have 1 download.
Now they put that game onto a USB drive, and they install your game on their other PC, a laptop, a friend's laptop, a family member's PC too. Now suppose they're all disconnected from the internet

You have literally no way to gauge how many times the game has been installed

It's impossible to predict

[lucid hatch]

it costs $100 USD to get your game on steam and you only get it back once youve made over $1000 USD

[glad viper]

I think Unity will try and estimate how many offline downloads.

[marsh loom]

if steam is too expensive for your game then 200k$ isn't possible

[bleak token]

how?

[marsh loom]

no?

[zealous cypress]

Na bro unity TOTALY CAN DO THAT

[lucid hatch]

malware has entered the chat

[hidden totem]

even free ones

[glad viper]

Survey, get an average percentage of offline runtimes.

[lucid hatch]

yep, if the game is free you still pay 100 usd lmao

[lucid hatch]

thats a horrible idea in so many ways

[hidden totem]

i was going to put a school project there, but nvm man i'm broke

[subtle grotto]

And this is another problem - a privacy concern. How are they detecting devices? If they're using some hardware info, that's easy to fake. If they're using personally identifiable information about the player, that's outright illegal

[marsh loom]

.

[lucid hatch]

they could tag each machine with a UUID

[glad viper]

The PC number is something like DESKTOP-K39AG8A

[hidden totem]

well survey is barely useful, there are times where it's useful but for these kinda things, naah

[lucid hatch]

im not supporting it but they could tag the device themselves

[subtle grotto]

Yes you can easily fake this. You can easily change this yourself in your settings it's not that hard

[glad viper]

Well the faked ones shouldn't affect the install count that much.

[hidden totem]

pc names is changeable like in 3 clicks

[lucid hatch]

^^ it can be changed like through general settings o\

[subtle grotto]

It's right there

It's easy

[glad viper]

They still have to be unique.

[lucid hatch]

on linux you can literally change it in like half a second, you can change it while installing the OS

[subtle grotto]

LOL No they do not

[glad viper]

oh sorry

[lucid hatch]

virtual machines can be changed even easier

[marsh loom]

Ms sable

[hidden totem]

say your pc is named A1, you can just change the number or add another

[marsh loom]

respond please

[lucid hatch]

dont type at me in full caps

[marsh loom]

srry

[lucid hatch]

says who??? since when do you have to be rich to make a game that makes moeny?

[marsh loom]

I mean if you made 200K why is 100 too expensive

[lucid hatch]

because you probably dont have 200k before putting the game up on steam

no ones saying that its a ridiculous price but its a big ask for a lot of developers that dont have that much money just laying around so they can be on steam

[marsh loom]

yeah you're right

[hidden totem]

well you can't really predict you will get 200k

[lucid hatch]

steam just isnt most developers starting point

[hidden totem]

if you did get it that initial fee is fine, but for some that never had any in the first place is just bruh

[lucid hatch]

its not wrong either way its just msot cant justify it

[hidden totem]

like the fee for me is around half a month of my pay

anyways, install fee is extremely unpredictable

[kind arch]

What unity doesnt realize is just because someone downloads the game doesnt mean theyve installed the game. They can still download anywhere on any device and not open the game
Plus even if they decide to somehow do it based on downloads that can easily bankrupt game devs if the users download bomb them.

None of this is a good solution

[lucid hatch]

the best solution is to just abolish games

[zealous cypress]

yall i found it
unity will install anydesk on your pc to see if you installed the game

🥦🧠

[hollow sage]

Either that, or Unity's engineers should jump ship and make their own company that actually cares about developing an engine, rather than just half-baking it and then plastering on every cash-grabbing technology they can get their hands on...

[night quartz]

The man said it himself, "all good things must come to an end"

[torn ridge]

Any news ?

[crisp ice]

I need an employee to leak the source code

[torn ridge]

Xddd

[native mesa]

YES that what i was saying

[hidden totem]

though with unreal looking at unity like this i feel like the chances of it is rather lower

cause they know how much this is causing

[subtle grotto]

Unreal is also open source, sort of

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-mqgi25pPQ

[subtle grotto]

oh boy Cherno made a video too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyAh-aca_Mo

[native mesa]

is it ?

[subtle grotto]

it's not "open source" in the same way, like it isn't licensed under an open source license

but if you have an Epic account, you can request access to the repo and it's accepted basically instantly, automatically

and then you can contribute, or fork it and fix a bug for your own use. you're not allowed to redistribute it

but you can access it for free

[native mesa]

[hidden totem]

you can see the source code atleast

[subtle grotto]

yeah that's why I say it's "open source, sort of"

it's technically not open source, I guess a more accurate name is "source available"

you can build the engine from source if you want to

[native mesa]

yee, still damn gud

[subtle grotto]

it's very good

[native mesa]

real engine ??

[subtle grotto]

at least it allows devs to go in and see how things work. so if nothing else, you can truly get to know the engine

more than can be said of Unity

there are so many systems in Unity where I - and many others - have had to say "it probably works this way but we don't know for sure"

[hidden totem]

might help out with the "how the hell is this bug like this" followed by "oh it's an engine bug" problems i think

[subtle grotto]

I strongly believe that Unity would skyrocket forward if they open-sourced the engine/editor

or at least made it source available

let the community fix the god damn fucking bugs

let the community finish the half-assed systems like DOTS and the various render pipelines

[native mesa]

well the stocks kinda came to their original price after the news

its in french, dont mind that

[subtle grotto]

it's fine je peux parler français

smh yasahiro rule 10

[subtle grotto]

That's not really an accurate measure though you're just looking at the past 1 day

Zoom out to 5 days, or the past month

[hidden totem]

don't need to know french to know it's going up or down, dw

[subtle grotto]

I would hardly call this "going up"

past 5 days, it dropped again yesterday

[native mesa]

yeeee, but i remember the price was like 28 no ?

[hidden totem]

well both, up down

[native mesa]

for ppl who care

[hidden totem]

anyways, it went like crazy not too long ago

[subtle grotto]

Before the announcement it was like 38

[native mesa]

a todler would say, its not doing good*

[native mesa]

oh, ok nvm

[subtle grotto]

The company is rapidly dying

[native mesa]

hope it doesnt plllllz

[subtle grotto]

I genuinely do not expect Unity to last much longer

Not unless there is massive leadership change

That's the only way Unity can regain some trust and build up the brand again

[hidden totem]

which somehow feels like it might be a possibility and this point

[subtle grotto]

Having new people in charge

As long as Riccitiello and the other board members are still around, the company will sink

[native mesa]

hope he leaves

[subtle grotto]

I hope so too

But hey this whole thing has made me dedicated to picking up Unreal again, and learning MonoGame some more

So it's not all bad

Thanks Riccitiello for reminding me there's a whole new world out there

[hidden totem]

well not just leave, mostly get replace would be nicer than just straight up yeet out

[native mesa]

i heard about monogame

is it an engine ?

[subtle grotto]

not quite

It's a framework

It's slightly higher level than OpenGL but not high enough to be considered a full "engine" in its own right

It's this weird middleground

[native mesa]

then no

[subtle grotto]

No?

no what

[hidden totem]

well that's that

[subtle grotto]

I don't understand

then no
No to what? I didn't ask a question

[subtle grotto]

I already answered though

like immediately

[bleak token]

yeah that was the "then no" part

it's not an engine

[subtle grotto]

"Is it an engine"
"No"
"Then no"

[bleak token]

that was his response

[hidden totem]

is it "then no, i shall not use it" ?

[subtle grotto]

Maybe but I never said he should. I just stated what I'll be using

[bleak token]

no he's probably like confirming himself that it's not an engine after yasa explained it to him

[native mesa]

tf is going on

[bleak token]

no clue potat

[hidden totem]

actually i have no idea

[subtle grotto]

idk

[native mesa]

?

"then no" i meant, im not going to use it

i tought it wasa n engine

[subtle grotto]

In that case ^

[hidden totem]

case close

[native mesa]

yasa told me it want

[subtle grotto]

Point is: MonoGame isn't an engine, and it's not fair to bundle it as "a game engine". It's a framework, it has 2D stuff done for you and it's relatively straightforward to get a 2D game going. But 3D is a lot more work, and is akin to working with OpenGL. You have to set up your own transformation matrices and shit, you have to write your own shaders

So it's a weird middle ground

Kind of an engine for 2D, not really an engine for 3D

[native mesa]

like pygame ?

[subtle grotto]

I guess sorta yeah

[native mesa]

so its a frame work, or a library

[subtle grotto]

Yeah

[neon sail]

Finally, some good news...

[hollow sage]

I assume you said that in reference to this post: https://blog.unity.com/news/open-letter-on-runtime-fee

With regard to which @subtle grotto, we may need an update of the OP.

[grave fractal]

wow remember when someone posted that one clip from south park of some guy saying "we're sorry" repeatedly

literally what happened

future sight or something

[crisp ice]

[tardy gull]

This is honestly better than I thought it would be

[subtle grotto]

That was me

[grave fractal]

oh, it was?

memory bad

[subtle grotto]

up here

[subtle grotto]

On it

OP updated

[hollow sage]

Already saw it, neat.
For what it's worth, maybe also add a link to Jason Weimann's impending QnA stream, seeing as that's (currently) unlisted and only mentioned at the bottom of the blog.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyLcI5O9iUY

[subtle grotto]

Added

[glad narwhal]

Did you guys read this thing?

Am I reading right?

[kind arch]

https://blog.unity.com/news/open-letter-on-runtime-fee
Lol

[subtle grotto]

We've just been talking about it

[kind arch]

Oh zenvin beat me to it

[subtle grotto]

I've updated the OP already

[glad narwhal]

Any thoughts about it?

[kind arch]

I just got here ok

[subtle grotto]

Good move, but unfortunately the damage is done

[kind arch]

I will say this does seem like a better plan
Self reporting seems iffy but. Eh yea

[glad narwhal]

That's so true... Was it so fking hard to do this from beginning?

[subtle grotto]

It shouldn't have taken community outrage for Unity to backtrack this

[glad narwhal]

OR a 2.5% rev share

[subtle grotto]

It shouldn't have ever been on the table

[glad narwhal]

Fair point

[bleak token]

interesting

[glad narwhal]

So let me understand the 2 main things :

1. If you use Unity under LTS 2024 your our of the fee completely
2. If you do use 2024.x you can choose between the "installs" fee or a 2.5% rev share
   Do I understand correctly?

Also do they remove the splash screen from Unity Personal?

[subtle grotto]

It seems so. But they also say that you'll be billed the lower of the two. So maybe not a "choice" exactly. Unless you choose to pay more, which I mean... power to you ig

[subtle grotto]

They haven't mentioned the splash screen at all so I don't expect any changes there

[glad narwhal]

Didn't they?

[subtle grotto]

Oh I missed that part

Interesting

[glad narwhal]

Indeed

Well, now looking at those terms, to me they don't seem to be bad ( or that bad )

And also, idk about you, but I really wasn't expecting such move from Unity

[tardy gull]

But will this be back ported to previous LTS versions? Or will it be removed for LTS 2024?

[glad narwhal]

In the statement it says that if you use Unity Editor version under 2024.x you're out of Runtime Fee

Completely

[crisp ice]

[tardy gull]

And do you think that'll apply to the splash screen as well? It isn't super clear...

[glad narwhal]

That's something that I don't have an answer for... If they will remove the splash screen from every unity editor it would be a really great thing but I assume that they will remove it just from LTS 2024.x +

But we can only wait and see

[crisp ice]

It seems to me like they're removing the splash screen requirement for all versions

[glad narwhal]

As I said I was totally not expecting such news like those

[kind arch]

So basically never update unity and you pay nothing?

[tardy gull]

I was thinking exactly that

[glad narwhal]

Seems fair to me

[crisp ice]

[kind arch]

[crisp ice]

I was planning to stick with 2019 forever anyway

[tardy gull]

LTS 2020 or 21 are the best versions anyway

[glad narwhal]

Me either

[kind arch]

Well
Tho these terms seem much better the damage in terms of trust are still fucked. We still need the ceo and executives to step down

[zealous cypress]

how much was the fee at first ? 14%

[tardy gull]

20c an install in most cases

[glad narwhal]

That's 100% right... Those guys are... Not really have words but maybe the next Unity move

[kind arch]

It took them this long to come up with a fair rev share plan. I dont see an apology for initial one other than the "we fucked up whoops sorry". Which means to me that they legit thought they could get away with the original plan so why should we continue trusting them after this change

[glad narwhal]

It's like breaking a glass, you can't just put it back and glue it

[kind arch]

Yea

[crisp ice]

They shit the bed and cleaned it up but they can't remove the stains completely

[glad narwhal]

Well, again I'll be optimistic and maybe the CEO gets a well deserved retirement

[tardy gull]

"well deserved"

[glad narwhal]

Well said

My bad

[kind arch]

[tardy gull]

I've never seen a guy make that many trash decisions and attract so much negative attention in my life

I don't know how he ever got a job in the first place (at unity or anywhere)

[tired oracle]

they did apologise tho

[kind arch]

They apologized for the miscommunication. Not for thinking the idea would work

[tardy gull]

Hey, it's something at least...

[crisp ice]

I hear their own employees fought like hell against this and the higher ups pushed it through anyway, and that's disgusting

[tired oracle]

"We should have spoken with more of you and we should have incorporated more of your feedback before annoucing our new runtime fee policy"
this literally says "Sorry, this decision was bad, we should have done it better"

[wintry lily]

what even was the policy💀

[tired oracle]

bro was under a rock for 2 weeks

[balmy osprey]

This is mildly better but I still don't trust unity personally. I do be enjoying godot but ig I can finish some older projects now

[tired oracle]

paying every time your game is installed was the policy

[crisp ice]

Oh wait so the splashscreen change is only for 2024 and higher?

[tired oracle]

in my honest opinion, this is infinitely better then what was proposed at first, not good yet, but better

[crisp ice]

[subtle grotto]

How is it not good.... when it's "infinitely" better

If it's infinitely better it would be the best thing ever

[balmy osprey]

I still don't think there should be a runtime fee. Just take a royalty like unreal. Make it less to compete with them

[tired oracle]

sorry for my "not the best english" as im not a native speaker i may not find every little error
with this being said, you got my point and cherry picking things is rather a low blow

[glad narwhal]

What does "Revenue Share" means to you?

[subtle grotto]

I wasn't cherry-picking I was just poking fun

[glad narwhal]

Isn't that what Unreal do?

[balmy osprey]

Is it that on top of the runtime fee

Cuz that's still worse than unreals

[tired oracle]

unreal takes 5% after 1st million dollars
Unity takes 2.5% after 1st million dollars

[glad narwhal]

No, you choose

If you want the "clasic" runtime fee or the rev share\

[tired oracle]

its always chosen based on which would be cheaper

[balmy osprey]

Ah, I see.

[balmy osprey]

Yes

[glad narwhal]

Does it matter that much? If the original way take more than 2.5% you'll give them just 2.5% rev share

If no, you're anyway paying less

[balmy osprey]

No

[glad narwhal]

Yes

[balmy osprey]

I don't think so. It says the runtime fee is forward looking

But I'm not sure

Probably tho

[glad narwhal]

What does the Runtime Fee has to do with splash screen?

[balmy osprey]

It says the runtime fee is forward looking, not the unity personal changes

[glad narwhal]

Did you read that whole thing?

[balmy osprey]

I'm skimming I'm at work

The email popped up when I walked I. The door

[glad narwhal]

Buddy, take your time, analyze the whole thing before you conclude something, no one is rushing anyone here

[balmy osprey]

I am rushed I'm at work fool

Just wanted to drop off the email

Don't call me buddy

[glad narwhal]

I'd suggest you chill down and watch your words

[glad narwhal]

But did someone told you to come here and talk about Unity's changes while you're at work?

Jeez...

[balmy osprey]

No I just wanted to drop it off here cuz it's part of the discussion what's ur problem

[glad narwhal]

... let's just simply end this

[tired oracle]

bro's getting angry

[wide hound]

I think going forward tho, unity might learn to listen more in the future.

[grave fractal]

no lol, big companies never do

[tardy gull]

Maybe, but Riccitiello is a major threat to this prospect

[wide hound]

Some do.

[tardy gull]

Honestly, they need to ask more then listen

[kind arch]

Its good that this means people wont need to switch engines just yet so they have time to get their shit together before they decide to

Especially if they can still use their unity version

[elfin vault]

that's honestly the best outcome out of all this

[kind arch]

The most best outcome would now be the leadership stepping down. But that is much harder i imagine

[balmy osprey]

Idk how big companies like that work but if they have a board can't the ceo be like... voted out?

[wide hound]

Besides people who use unity personal won't be affected.

[coarse ginkgo]

yes

[wide hound]

The board needs to be voted out too.

It's not just the ceo

[balmy osprey]

Lmao ig so

[wide hound]

Unfortunately nothing is higher than the board

[coarse ginkgo]

honestly that email seemed good to me

idc about the ceo

maybe he gets voted out maybe he doesnt

[balmy osprey]

If only the employees could vote out corporate lmao

Idk if companies would cease to function or function better

[kind arch]

You should. Hes the one that had final say in all this

[wide hound]

I mean the engine still decent and they made some nice changes.

Good enough for me tbh.

[kind arch]

I still wont trust the company until they are out

These changes are good but tbh too little too late. They still need work to gain trust again

[wide hound]

They're not out yet?

I thought they were.

[wide hound]

Ehh, maybe. I don't really care honestly. If the product is good and won't fuck me up, then that's good enough for me.

It's like buying a game tbh.

If the game is good even tho people say it's bad, I'll still buy it because I enjoy it. It's similar tbh

[glad narwhal]

For now it won't fuck you up but as they came with this Runtime Fee out of nowhere you think they can't do this again?

[kind arch]

The ceo and executives? No

[wide hound]

Ohh I thought u were talking bout the new policy changes.

[wide hound]

Potato tomato tbh.

[kind arch]

No. Idk when the changes are out

[wide hound]

I mean, only time will tell, for now. It doesn't really bother me.

Since they made better changes out of this tbh.

Like now unity personal doesn't need to pay a fee at all, pretty sure before it used to.

and no splash screen, that's a bonus.

[glad narwhal]

The new changes tbh I don't think they bother anyone, but the thing that it was needed for the whole community to outrage just to realise that it was the worst thing ever says something

[glad narwhal]

Is you use LTS 2024.x +

[wide hound]

I mean when has a company not gotten back lash like this and made changes immediately after listening to the community?

[glad narwhal]

Would have been that hard to do this from beginning?

[wide hound]

Yea, but the policy were gonna be affected in 2024.x+ anyways

[wide hound]

Dunno, I'm not a large company.

[glad narwhal]

You don't need to be

[wide hound]

I'm just saying it's happened before.

Most of the times people just kept using the product anyways.

So for me this doesn't change much.

[glad narwhal]

And the community wasn't happy again

[kind arch]

Its happened but it doesnt mean we should be used to this. Something needs to change

[wide hound]

I mean, they could've just ignored the community and kept the change.

Atleast they're still willing to listen.

[glad narwhal]

For me, this is a good maybe great move, but still some things remain

[glad narwhal]

They tried

[wide hound]

I mean they appolgised , good enough for me tbh.

[subtle grotto]

Seriously

[wide hound]

I'll just see this as warning 1. If they do it another time, we'll see then.

[subtle grotto]

You're just gonna take "I'm sorrry" and say things are magically better now?

[balmy osprey]

I do somewhat feel like this was planned tho. Like they show us something horrible and then switch so something less bad so that people are more willing to accept it

[wide hound]

Yes.

[subtle grotto]

This isn't warning 1 though. They've done evil things in the past

[wide hound]

I am.

[glad narwhal]

They would have buried themselves if they didn't listen at all

[wide hound]

Didn't bother me. Tbh.

[balmy osprey]

Yamoshi XD

[wide hound]

Even now it doesn't really.

[glad narwhal]

I am dead =))

[subtle grotto]

• They parnered with a malware distributor
• The CEO called mobile devs fucking idiots
• and now this pricing model thing

This is not warning 1

[balmy osprey]

"Idc what evil things they do as long as they keep me out of it" XD

Savage. I respect it

[wide hound]

I agree with 2nd one anyways.

[balmy osprey]

👀

[subtle grotto]

What do you mean "agree"

[balmy osprey]

Those are our brothers man

[subtle grotto]

How can you "disagree"? This isn't opinion, it literally happened

[wide hound]

Either way, this doesn't change that the engine is still good.

[balmy osprey]

Don't be hating on mobile gang

[wide hound]

I mean I agree with what he saying.

[balmy osprey]

Clash is my childhood

[subtle grotto]

Then you are also an asshole

[wide hound]

I know.

But it doesn't bother me tho

[balmy osprey]

Well that's that then

[subtle grotto]

Okay so you basically aren't going to listen to anyone

[wide hound]

Wdym

[subtle grotto]

And you don't care what almost everyone thinks

[wide hound]

That's not what I'm saying.

[subtle grotto]

Because it doesn't matter how Unity treats its users, how much they break laws

You're still going to be loyal because you don't care

[wide hound]

I mean rockstar broke a couple laws

I'll still buy their games tho

[subtle grotto]

I rest my case

[wide hound]

So pretty much yes.

I think it like this, what a company does should not affect if the product is bad/good. If it's bad then it's bad, and if it's good then it's good. But I know gta 5 is a good game and I have had a lot of fun with it, even if they are a greedy bunch of people who sold pirated copies to steam.

that's my view anyways

[sharp vector]

What do you guys think about the update policy?

[subtle grotto]

Using the product is actively supporting and endorsing the actions of the company

It's like saying "I know starbucks is a shit company but they make good coffee and starbucks being shit doesn't affect the quality of the coffee". Who cares about the product? Stop giving money to / supporting the company
NB: Not saying starbucks is a shit company, that was just an example

[wide hound]

Sure, I'm supporting the company. But I'm still gonna enjoy the games if I feel like it's good?

[wide hound]

Exactly. I care bout the product.

Not the company.

[subtle grotto]

The product is irrelevant

[wide hound]

It's not to me.

That's your view then.

You care more about the company

than what you're buying

I'm the opposite.

[subtle grotto]

It doesn't matter what I am buying. It matters who the money is going to

[wide hound]

Let's agree to disagree.

[vernal mural]

why are you on discord? they broke the law and had to pay a 800k fine

[subtle grotto]

When did they break the law

[vernal mural]

idunno

[wide hound]

..

[subtle grotto]

[wide hound]

lol

[subtle grotto]

So you're just gonna make wild ass assertions?

[vernal mural]

On 10th November 2022, the CNIL fined DISCORD INC. 800,000 euros for failing to comply with several obligations of the GDPR, in particular with regard to the data retention periods and security of personal data.

[subtle grotto]

And you expect me to believe you?

[balmy osprey]

Citations?

[wide hound]

https://www.cnil.fr/en/discord-inc-fined-800-000-euros

[balmy osprey]

I'm inclined to believe you but

[kind arch]

God what is this conversation

[balmy osprey]

Ah

[vernal mural]

just pointing out some hypocritical statements

[wide hound]

800k euros damn

[balmy osprey]

Wellll discord isn't charging me money

[vernal mural]

yasa endorses a company that breaks the law while lambasting others that support a company that potentially would break a law

[glad narwhal]

And the question of the day : Does it matter the product or the company that makes the product?

[wide hound]

Unless u pay for nitro.

[balmy osprey]

I will never that's a ripoff anyway

[kind arch]

And also
???
Seriously?

[subtle grotto]

These claims are very minor and one isn't even a good argument

[wide hound]

I think there's no answer to this, it's just opinions.

[subtle grotto]

Literally one of the things Discord got fined for was "the app doesn't exit when you hit the X in the corner". This isn't a legal concern, this is users being stupid

[inland bridge]

The changes are good but I'm still switching

[subtle grotto]

When a user logged into a voice room closes the DISCORD application window by clicking on the "X" icon at the top right of the window in Microsoft Windows, they actually just put the application in the background and stay logged into the voice room. However, in Microsoft Windows, clicking on the "X" at the top right of the last visible application window will exit the application for the vast majority of applications.

DISCORD's behavior is different and may lead to users being heard by other members in the voice room when they thought they had left. The restricted committee considered that DISCORD should specifically inform users by making them aware that their words are still being transmitted and heard by others.

[kind arch]

The mindset that companies can do shitty things as long as it doesnt affect you is a horrible one to have. You arent the only one using the product. Its selfish

[wide hound]

Why does it matter to me if other people want to use the product or not?

They can choose that.

[subtle grotto]

Because you're using the product for the wrong reasons

[wide hound]

How is it selfish?

Wrong reasons?

There's no wrong reason in using a product?

If I wanted to use discord as a place to store files, would that be me using it wrongly?

[kind arch]

If the company is evil and you still use their product then you are supporting them and their decisions

Even if their decisions are the worst ones ever

[subtle grotto]

It would be okay if you actively supported the change, or if you disapproved but found it financially worse to switch right now.

But you're not either of those things, you've looked at the changes and said "I'm not personally affected so I don't care."

[wide hound]

Ok and how does that affect me?

Let me make one thing clear.

[vernal mural]

and what is evil?

[wide hound]

I'm not supporting anyone.

I simply don't care enough.

If the product is good, that's good enough.