Resilience

[untold leaf]

I mean I've been killed by spikethron once, and by earthen fury more times than I care to remember, but that's because more things cast earthen fury

[pastel brook]

I mostly stopped dying from earthen fury when I figured out that I should crawl out of the room

[untold leaf]

if it knocked me down it would pretty much always also stun me as well. But symbol of transcendence is usable while stunned and a big lifesaver in that case

[brave forge]

If anything, I think with this change, Raise Dead (318) needs to be more rewarding since it can have an actual impact there. 

Leafiara — 10/05/2024 3:13 PM
More rewarding to the caster or the deader?

Estild OP — 10/05/2024 3:14 PM
The caster. Death isn’t really intended to be rewarding…```
Back then I couldn't properly articulate what I was subconsciously thinking, but now, as I watch people selling all their death's sting salve from their Ebon Gate vaults, I can.

If deaths become comparatively more rare because of resilience, then people would feel more free to depart and salve up because they go through salve less quickly. So as an offset, then, I think there might also need to be additional incentive for the deader to wait on a cleric (or paladin, for that matter).

[dense crest]

There really should be stronger incentives to a) NOT DIE & B) to use a cleric when you do.

[grand jay]

let folks go demonic like the good old days, that'll learn 'em

[stoic meadow]

There needs to be some kind of Alive Streak that only Clerics can keep secure. How about resilience has to build up over time. (Over 5,000 like level kills) Everytime you die your resilence drops by 50% unless a cleric uses a chrism on you.

so you can depart but you will be weaker for awhile. Then simu can sell a "greater death salve" for 2x the price.

[pastel brook]

this conversation is very funny because you've literally just invented a new type of death's sting, that mechanic already exists and they sell salve for it!

[modest hill]

I've never been raised, salve is just so much easier.

[grand jay]

Also just as easy to find the town priest/ess NPC and pay them silvers, if you don't mind spending silvers this way

[brave forge]

I wouldn't wait for a cleric either if I didn't have one for a main. Depart, salve, Symbol of Dreams to recover spirit at about the same speed it would take to recover stats with anything but the highest end chrism anyway (and nobody makes nor sells nor buys those as far as I can tell).

[wintry sleet]

it's a tough problem b/c Simu let the cat out the bag by monetizing salve and approving of the playstyle to treat death as a salve transaction

You'll have pitchforks if you do anything to nerf that playstyle.

They already give LTE and chrism benefits for rez so what else are they going to add without making it too beneficial to die? I'd like to hear what Estild had in mind...

[timber peak]

People are selling their death's sting salve because they almost never die. And here we are reducing likelihood of death, and musing over schemes to "make death great again" at the same time.

[pastel brook]

Content selection problem, if I wanted to never die I could also choose to do the content where I never die

[wintry sleet]

chrism sets your mind to fried if it was below that? would that move the needle at all? I think a big piece though is that people just don't want to wait/interact.

[wintry sleet]

improve rewards for uphunting? higher chance at feeder items or something?

[pastel brook]

That’s gemstones, but I definitely support gemstones!

[brave forge]

Maybe it's chrisms themselves that need the buff. Anybody who's had a chrism censer waved at them knows the sheer power of a max level chrism, but in the regular world and not the 3-5 people who have censers, nobody can actually make glowing chrisms because gems of that caliber basically don't exist.

(I've never even seen vibrant chrisms out in the wild, to be honest, although at least I know people could make those since I've seen 13k+ orbs--it's just that the deaders aren't willing to pay that price.)

Downshift the values for chrism quality to beat out Symbol of Dreams more easily and maybe things get more interesting.

[pastel brook]

I would of course reluctantly support large buffs to loot in all the areas I hunt in but I do think gemstones are meant to cover that

[brave forge]

(And yes, I fully acknowledge that part of the reason people aren't willing to pay 17.5k for vibrant chrisms is because there's at least one cleric annihilating the chrism market by selling dull ones for 6750 and ordinary ones for 8250, but that was a self-fulfilling prophecy after trying to sell bright ones for more and learning that the only thing the overwhelming majority of people care about and/or understand is the price of a chrism and whether it retains exp.)

[wintry sleet]

Would people actually care about chrism power? 100% exp seems the only relevant thing outside of invasions (where you want to get back into the fray ASAP). Getting your exp back means you're not in a rush to get back to hunting.

[pastel brook]

Here’s my hot take suggestion — just stop making 325 require gems at all, let me make max chrisms from air

[brave forge]

In the current world, I think I agree.

In the future world where gemstones exist, I don't know if we should even bother resting until we hit loot cap (assuming they're affected by loot cap, which I still hope they aren't), never mind intentionally slow down any more than necessary due to a death.

[wintry sleet]

I'd argue that's a minority viewpoint but I hear ya Leafi

[brave forge]

On the bright side, I've just accidentally argued myself into keeping a stash of bright chrisms for my use only. 😂

[wintry sleet]

getting a cleric rez is kind of an RP experience compared to depart/salve which is anti-RP...so what about attaching a micro-RPA to chrisms? like 10 minutes for dull, +5 minutes per quality of chrism tier?

It would be a good opportunity to redesign chrisms to make people care about the quality rather than just the %exp

[wide heron]

My chrism RPA has expired, let me go die so I can reapply

[pastel brook]

I am strongly pro the GMs making it optimal to die

[brave forge]

That probably would get too far into the realm of dying becoming a good thing. The only way I could see it working is doing some particularly targeted thing like tracking the number of exp pulses you're dead for and then helping you recoup exactly that much exp over time (or even instantly) by using a chrism. That way you don't come out ahead and there are no possible multiplier shenanigans.

[wintry sleet]

I'm sure you could develop ways to reign in abuse, make it more expensive, etc. You're paying a price in your time, silvers for the chrism, you get a small exp boost (maybe 10-30m is too long) that wouldn't be enough to tempt hardcore depart/salvers to change their playstyle.

I think it's ok to come out a little bit ahead since you're paying time, silvers, lost spells, inconvenience, not being out there hunting for gemstones/loot, etc.

[stoic meadow]

Just go back to the drawing board.... no departing, no salves. Just stop selling them. They be used up in a year.

[brave forge]

Too late on that latter one, heh.

[untold leaf]

Make death salve cost increase each time you use it. It should be something players use as a last resort and therefore infrequently. Not the go to.

[pastel brook]

I think tsalin's idea is workable honestly, but I do think chrisms would benefit from an accessibility boost if getting a chrism is a big part of the perceived benefit of 318. alternately maybe some of the chrism power like exp retention could just move into 318 in exchange for RPA power moving into chrisms, I dunno

[vestal obsidian]

7. a tall jar of pallid grey salve (7) I've been sitting on these for over a year.

[stoic meadow]

They're not meant for you. My alts go through them super fast.

[wintry sleet]

If you make chrisms attractive to sell, I guarantee you we will make them accessible! Not that Leafi isn't doing an amazing job all by herself lol

[brave forge]

Over here sitting on 259 chrisms and 371 chrism-capable orbs plus whatever's in my shop at the moment...

[wintry sleet]

I have a decent number of >13k orb gems ready to go!

[pastel brook]

I mean I have a full chrismarium right now but there's no denying they cost money, and then we expect the dead body to pay us that money, and that whole process adds friction, so maybe they should just be free to make

[wintry sleet]

I think I like the idea of moving the exp part into 318 and letting chrisms have their own separate benefits. No one should get a 318 rez anymore without the exp return imo

[stoic meadow]

I never ask for money when my cleric rez/chrism but I only rescue when I feel like it/generous. I know there are some workhorse clerics out there.

Maybe there needs to be a MONTHLY diety based reward resurrection system. Raise X different ppl and get some end of the month experience/silver/giftbox from the local church.

Or better yet to make it fair, at the end of the month your chrism value used (aggregate gem value) is added together and you get some scaling burst of experience from the church. January raises: 27, chrism value used: 229,500 silvers. Silvers X seed scaling = end of month burst of 15,000 LTE experience.

[untold leaf]

How would that make people want Cleric rezzes more? That’s only increasing the rewards for the Cleric.

[stoic meadow]

It would not directly. One of the reasons why ppl depart/salve is speed. Maybe if Clerics are "highly motivated" to rez more ppl then they will be faster and more responsive.

they really need to kill the death salves though OR give some stupid rez buff like +20 defense, +20 AS for 15 minutes (cooldown per cleric/deader or x/day)

[untold leaf]

I guess that depends on if most peole just immedietly depart or are willing to wait any length of time. Might just end up making Clerics fight over the few corpses willing to wait around lol.

[stoic meadow]

I am surprised they are giving away this "Free" resilience as opposed to selling more protection, can someone remind me why? Is it because 1 person cried after dying from a 250+ open roll or something lol....

[untold leaf]

But I agree. I think the death salve side needs to be made less appealing. I don't think this can be fixed just by making chrisms more appealing.

[wide heron]

I'd like to make sure warriors can be killed before any death changes.

[stoic meadow]

oh yeah it was the wyrm, much rather make warriors die MORE than make all classes die less

[wide heron]

Maybe each hour that you're alive it can reduce redux by 1%. That way you're more likely to die. And it can reset upon death, but only if you're raised by a cleric.

[stoic meadow]

Atleast that gets rid of the incentive to die on purpose haha. (Waits for a future where mass groups suicide right before Wyrm Raid)

[brave forge]

It’s to lessen cheap deaths. Complaints are not a factor. We want less of the former regardless of the latter.```
Only explanation we've got. Of course, I understand that what you're getting at is the reason behind the reason. On the surface level, sure, this is to lessen cheap deaths, but what is *that* meant to accomplish (if anything)? It's not to reduce complaints, whatever it is (if anything)...

[pastel brook]

I think this is very funny, like “why are they making the game more fun instead of charging for it???” Maybe they just want the game experience to be fun even for players who haven’t spent a thousand bucks!

[timber peak]

Who hasn't spent a thousand bucks?

[stoic meadow]

Cheap deaths suck for everyone for sure. To be honest even the most expensive items don't protect 100% vs. Some of the cheesiest stuff.

[brave forge]

That's why I generally don't invest in armor and regret the only times that I have.

[modest hill]

Which, honestly, is a really weird place to be for a game, but I can't disagree with you.

[ancient wren]

Didn’t dying used to cost you experience?

[stoic meadow]

Games probably in one of its best spots ever for silvers ability to buy event currency to then buy the good low/midtier gear all in game. So aside from monthly sub you can wield power with no outside help. Just need to trade your time to farm it.

[vestal obsidian]

well it gives you death sting which takes your experience, which is what death salve cures.

[ancient wren]

Yeah but it’s not the same experience loss from the old days? I am honestly not remembering exactly but didn’t it cost you a lot of experience to depart?

[wide heron]

10000 xp

[stoic meadow]

Yes, one time on my first character i decayed with no deeds so much in ghoul masters that I would have needed to "re-level" 5 times just to get back to my current levels starting point. Needless to say that guy is long gone...

[smoky pilot]

This is a really interesting perspective on optimization. Why bother preventing death if you can just salve and get right back in the field?

For me, I think the idea of making my toon more powerful is sort of an overarching goal - even more than pure exp gain. And I measure power level in terms of both offense and defense.

[pastel brook]

Death sting still costs you experience, just future experience. But salve ends up just being so cheap that it just costs you salve

[wide heron]

I wonder how many people actually pay for it from the store though.

Most of the salve I have is from event ... years ago. We just got a ton of it.

[brave forge]

Yeah, which is another reason people sell their oversupply.

[hardy yoke]

[Ruined Temple, Third Floor - 12694] (u3031056)
You notice a triton combatant, an elliptical brine-stained parma, an oak-shafted silvery blue trident, an oak-shafted silvery blue trident and a spiral staircase.
Obvious paths: northeast, northwest
Your triton combatant followed.
>
[go2: travel time: 0:00:01.238]
--- Lich: go2 has exited.
An animated triton combatant thrusts with an ancient bone lance at a triton combatant!
The triton combatant evades the attack by a hair!
>
A triton combatant rushes forward at you with her silvery blue trident and attempts a charge!
[SMR result: 132 (Open d100: 91, Bonus: 5)]
Your size significantly hinders your defense!
A triton combatant lunges at you with a fair charge!
   ... 14 points of damage!
   Attack punctures the eye and connects with something really vital!```is character resilience going to stop my garbo alts dying like this as i plow toward their 50k resource for the week. i hope so.

[digital mirage]

It might!

[foggy pumice]

ship it

[sharp quest]

Maybe they'd die less if they had better self esteem. Poor garbo alts.

[royal snow]

Never mind the self esteem, get puncture fittings.

[brittle crow]

Fittings have 50 rank max. It's not fantastic.

[wintry sleet]

Writhing, milky tentacles burst forth from the tortured spatial anomaly, grasping blindly through the areas they glisten with vile humors.
The evanescent shield shrouding Tsalinx fades briefly.
[SMR result: 99 (Open d100: 29)]
[SMR result: 242 (Open d100: 178)]
With an agonizing crunch, a cold tentacle wraps around your abdomen and constricts violently as it whips you back toward the void!
   ... 15 points of damage!
   Solid abdomen grapple, stomach bruised!
   You are knocked to the ground!
   You are stunned for 2 rounds!
Though you fall free from the predatory limbs, the tumultuous energies of the spatial anomaly tear at you, warping your flesh!
   ... 50 points of damage!
   Gaping hole punched through your stomach!
Roundtime: 20 sec.```
loving resilience

[vital coyote]

okay I swear I wasn't going to come back and post but [go2]>go pile [SMR result: 173 (Open d100: 243)] As you inch your way across a strange pile, you suddenly lose your footing and fall through! You get caught on some large wooden spikes as you smack into the ground! ... 15 points of damage! Nasty blow to your left hand! ... 20 points of damage! Attack punctures the eye and connects with something really vital! (this was a level 50 rogue on the way OUT to hunt stone valley, uninjured unencumbered) .. also a friend did point this out which is quite hilarious, it's not like I rolled a -243, the pile, an inanimate feature, rolled a 243

[untold leaf]

is that some sort of trap?

[simple sable]

think that is just the entry/exit

[pastel brook]

It’s a trap yes, you got trapped

[simple sable]

I was thinking random pointy tree limbs, but "spikes" probably means created. Dont mind my idiocy, hopefully resilience helps with this kind of stuff.

[grand jay]

you had a very unlucky fall. it happens. Just like when you see someone in real life twist their ankle. The twist doesn't look like anything out of the ordinary, it should just be sprained and sore for a few days - right? Nope, for some reason they just happened to break their ankle instead and now are in a cast.

[vital coyote]

it's the entry to stone valley, a thing you walk across and has existed for idk 30 years

[wintry sleet]

I would be totally fine/happy if they changed all environmental hazards to do no more than a rank 3 wound. Maybe add some RT to make it worse...but don't kill me.

ok maybe if it's like "you did something stupid to deserve this" you can kill me...but if it's just a random rng hazard you can't avoid and have to just deal with...no death (at least hopefully resilience mitigates)

[pastel brook]

It is the entrance to stone valley but, to be clear, it is also a pit trap

[daring otter]

[no solicitors]

[wintry sleet]

The flaming aura surrounding a smouldering skeletal dreadsteed lashes out at you!
[SMR result: 265 (Open d100: 267)]
Your black vine anklet pulses briefly, deflecting some of the burning damage!
   ... 40 points of damage!
   Head reduced to a charred stump.```
Flaming aura clearly still broken 😆

[untold leaf]

That’s a luck charm re-roll?? Wonder what the original roll was. lol

[daring otter]

I dunno about broken... a 265 endroll should probably have at the minimum a very good chance to kill you 😂

[timber peak]

That's some astronomically bad luck.

[untold leaf]

Would be funny if luck charms have been broken this whole time and they’re actually unlucky charms

[hardy yoke]

Congrats on defeating probability (I don’t know how math works but that looks nuts)

[royal snow]

Has anyone analysed logs to see if they deal correctly with open rolls? I'm not sure they are broken, but I do think they need to be checked.

[wintry sleet]

1/20 * 1/20 * 1/3 = 1/1200 odds to eat at 267 or worse right (around there)?
and it happened twice
1/1200 * 1/1200 = 1/1.44 million at a minimum (since the discarded roll was worse)

[royal snow]

There are so many rolls in GS that 1 in a million odds do come up 9 times out of 10.

[untold leaf]

I would really like to see the original rolls from luck charm re-rolls

[wintry sleet]

yeah - mostly so I can know when it saves me from an open roll and feel real good about that lol

[untold leaf]

yep, I think it would feel a lot better seeing those

[zinc marten]

I’ve had a 300+ endroll on a valravn quill spray and 300+ endroll shield bashes from a shieldmaiden AFTER the luck charm fired. I don’t think the charm is busted but the ascension grounds are absolutely SMR fests. My logs since hunting HW has the incidence of positive open rolls at ~9%.

[royal snow]

Whats the fraction of rerolls that are open rolls?

[wintry sleet]

1/20 * 1/20 * 1/5 = 1/2000 ?

[timber peak]

where does the 1/5th come in? Admittedly I'm not familiar with bard luck charms.

[wintry sleet]

hmmm might have read your question wrong - it's the 20% rate of a L5/L6 luck charm causing the reroll

so yeah I guess it's just 1/400 since basically it's just the odds of both rolls being in that top 5%

[royal snow]

But does it match the logged data reasonably closely?

[vital coyote]

The ground beneath your feet suddenly frosts and rumbles violently!
The earth cracks beneath you, releasing a column of frigid air!
[SMR result: 212 (Open d100: 188)]
   ... 45 points of damage!
   Frigid blast shatters your right leg beyond all recognition!
You fall screaming to the ground grasping your mangled right leg!
   You are stunned for 6 rounds!
!SP>``` again, boil earth math.. 5 casts gives you nearly 25% chance of seeing an open roll, and ~15% chance of seeing one in the first three, which lets face basically = death. I guess its just time to go KS once you hit stone valley time

[hard marsh]

To be fair it is always a good idea to go KS.

[simple sable]

disagree!

[hasty otter]

20% chance to activate.

I was scrolled way up. 😂

[pallid sleet]

The outcome roll was almost 5x worse. 24 over versus 112 over. That was from a single open roll. Just picture how low the chances are of it being just 2x worse.

I post something like this a couple times a year. Readers digest version. Open rolls should be a D20 instead D100.

[simple sable]

I'm looking forward to the extra survivability from this.

[pastel brook]

You just shouldn’t see a second or especially third boil earth tick because you should already have left the room by then

[untold leaf]

hard to leave the room when you're on the ground and stunned from the first or second hit...

[pastel brook]

I mean the preroll was 30 here, like 85% of the time he won't be on the ground and stunned

[daring otter]

Yeah, but easy for pures to say, who can move in soft RT. A swinger might be SMR'd 2-3 times before they get out of their own swing RT, and small hits will just give them more (and give the next boil earth a huge bonus so it kills them)

I hate earthen fury, gah. Killed me more than anything else leveling up. Even with the intent to move away whenever I see it.

Always just one second away from escaping my own RT, and then I get nicked, and with 2-4 more damage cycles coming in, it's over, every time.

[pastel brook]

I mean I agree boil earth is a dangerous spell that needs to be your first priority. any time I hunt in a place with boil earth I make sure to specifically be attentive to the enemy that casts it, so that I can act immediately to neutralize that threat, and if I can't act to neutralize the threat then I probably don't hunt there. I think my point here is, if you are in the room with an enemy that you know can cast boil earth, and it's their turn, and you haven't disabled them, and you haven't hidden or left the room, and you're actually in hard roundtime because you spent time doing something else that didn't disable them, then you have put yourself in a terrible tactical situation. and yet it's still survivable if you get a short or no stun on the round that hits you, because as soon as the stun ends you can crawl out of the room.

[daring otter]

I think all of that is fair

Most of the time for me it would come from illoke shaking off debuffs, standing up, and casting before I have a chance to act... or from negative open rolls forcing my disablers to miss, so I'm sitting there in a small bit of hard RT just as they cast. But these are just back luck situations.

There are lots of deadly spells on this level, but boil earth has so many things leveling up that cast it... at least around the landing. Get 'em while they're young with tree spirits 😔

[slow thicket]

(Earthen fury) 😬

It has an ice version! And would have a lighting version but Envoy Tikba was mean

[untold leaf]

yeah I've been killed by earthen fury more times than anything else while leveling up. Until I figured out how awesome symbol of transcendence is. That cut down on those deaths by a lot

[daring otter]

I started calling it boil earth because Tikba did. I called it earthen fury above, you can see. I just thought Tikba knew something I didn't, and now I feel deceived.

[pastel brook]

IT WILL ALWAYS BE BOIL EARTH

[vital coyote]

and yes totally agree that boil earth should be "disable or gtfo", I am not saying I should be able to stand there toe to toe while it's firing. It was fun when I was ambushing tree spirits, because it was a dance of knockdown, get up, prep, etc. But stone giants, they "keep one in the chamber in case you ponderin'", and I am pretty sure they can shake stun and cast in the same instant? so it is a bit tougher to gtfo when it starts. Stone giant boil earth is second only to crawling out of the zombie copse with a tree spirit in the new room while you try to stand up

[urban socket]

That's not very new character friendly

[hard marsh]

Hmm - I've been on test quite a bit getting slapped around (unintentionally) and it really feels like my empath is taking QUITE the beating without getting stunned/crit killed with AS/DS attacks. Just wearing double leather - no padding.

The 20% resilience (if you didn't have redux) was supposed to not apply to AS/DS combat, right?

[digital mirage]

Correct

[hard marsh]

Hmm. Well. I felt tough as nails in my lil double leather with no padding so I like it!

[wintry sleet]

Is the AS/DS bug still in place? Might be helpful to squash that for further wyrm testing in a more-realistic environment.

[royal snow]

FORCERT if its your own RT. You don't have to sit out your own RT, provided you keep acting before they put you in RT.

[daring otter]

You're absolutely right. FORCERT is so... unintuitive. Or it seems that way to me. I'm awful at remembering it exists, let alone using it.

[royal snow]

I just set it as default.

[daring otter]

If I do that I'll blow through all my stamina trying to use my next action just before RT is up, which is variable due to latency.

[royal snow]

I already had huge stamina when forcert came out. Before that I was being very careful about taking on multiple enemies, or having a lot of macros or both.

[urban socket]

From what I could tell based on mathing out about 6 attacks, AS/DS was treated as though you had a full 20% redux on test. So you'd see more blood loss in the final results but the severity of the hits should be accurate

[frail jetty]

need more reilience

The flaming aura surrounding a shining winged disir lashes out at you!
[SMR result: 256 (Open d100: 242, Penalty: 9)]
Your wiregrass anklet pulses briefly, deflecting some of the burning damage!  The anklet glints one last time, then grows dim.
   ... 29 points of damage!
   Flame sets your head alight like a torch.  Burned beyond recognition.
The deep blue glow leaves you.```

[pliant lagoon]

i was trying to see if i saved bit of the one death i'd had in moonsedge which was 450 or 550 open roll result and id 60 damage on a stomach minor wound, just a weird death... that said, here's nice open roll one just meh, flaming aura really needs some bite to it, its never even scary or hurt anyone! The flaming aura surrounding a smouldering skeletal dreadsteed lashes out at you!
[SMR result: 174 (Open d100: 174)]
A crackling multihued latticework springs up from the surface of your shadarl armor and shields you from some of the damage!
Your flaeshorn vine anklet pulses briefly, deflecting some of the burning damage!
... 1 point of damage!
Minor burns to right leg. That hurts a bit.

[foggy pumice]

In a breathtaking display of agility and combat mastery, a spectral gigas berserker whirls in a fury of unrelenting strikes and ripostes!
Dark tendrils lash out from your tight shirt and form a crimson-runed shroud of darkness around you!
A swirling burst of essence lashes out from a spectral gigas berserker, consuming nearby magical energy!
The silvery luminescence fades from around you.
The hazy film around Yakushi fluxes chaotically!
   ... 13 points of damage!
   Crackling blue plasma roasts a smoking hole in your neck!
The tingling sensation and sense of security leaves you.
You feel less confident than before.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around you.
The bright luminescence fades from around you.
You feel the surge of magic depart.``` we need it now....

[hardy yoke]

Stop making boon creatures!!

[wintry sleet]

Just delete the dispel ones. Magic immune too.

[foggy pumice]

The bright luminescence fades from around you.
The elemental aura around you wavers.
A swirling burst of essence lashes out from a spectral gigas shield-maiden, consuming nearby magical energy!
The subdued warmth embracing you fades along with the spiritual force surrounding your arms.
The elemental aura around Yakushi fluxes chaotically!
Your demon amulet pulses briefly, deflecting some of the electrical damage!  The amulet glints one last time, then grows dim.
   ... 14 points of damage!
   Electric blast goes right to the heart!  You'll miss that steady beat.
The tingling sensation and sense of security leaves you.``` sacrificing my body & dignity to bring awareness to a growing problem.....#free resilience!!!!

[hardy yoke]

You're doing this to yourself!! and others!

[foggy pumice]

i'm sacrificing charges & deeds for the team..... u wound me sir

[stoic meadow]

All powerful zhagen being chased around Fjalla by a magic-immune Hinterboar.... SO Embarassing!

[smoky pilot]

Gotta groin kick that thing to death

[shy linden]

I can contribute to the awareness front:

  CS: +517 - TD: +404 + CvA: -20 + d100: +18 == +111
  Warding failed!
You feel a surge of intense energy suddenly tear violently at your body! You feel drained!
 ... and hits for 23 points of damage!
Your wiregrass anklet pulses briefly, deflecting some of the burning damage!  The anklet glints one last time, then grows dim.
   ... 10 points of damage!
   Burst of flames to left arm burns skin bright red.
Your wiregrass anklet pulses briefly, deflecting some of the freezing damage!  The anklet glints one last time, then grows dim.
   ... 5 points of damage!
   Icy chill to your midriff.  A bowl of nice hot stew would hit the spot right now.
Your wiregrass anklet pulses briefly, deflecting some of the electrical damage!  The anklet glints one last time, then grows dim.
   ... 50 points of damage!
   Electrical shock overloads your nervous system!  Quite fatal.```

[vital coyote]

I sure hope nothing happens while I am eating acantha leaf in a "safe" room on teras The humidity in the air rises as an oncoming wave of steam moves outward from the surrounding active geysers. [SMR result: 203 (Open d100: 193, Bonus: 4)] You are buffeted by the roiling cloud of steam, and knocked to the ground. You are pinned in place, unable to move. ... 40 points of damage! Scalding jet eviscerates left eye! post EG Kudos for 45 minutes

[stoic meadow]

Where is your steam resistance anklet??? (And a thousand steam anklet owners suddenly cried out in night)

[slow thicket]

  SMR SvD: +63 + o100 roll: +49 == +112
   ... 60 points of damage!
   Intestines rupture from intense heat; a stunted halfling bloodspeaker dies a slow, painful death.
A stunted halfling bloodspeaker's eyes bulge as she stares toward the heavens, mouthing a gurgling prayer as she succumbs to death.
A series of purple lines suddenly appears on a stunted halfling bloodspeaker's face, quickly racing towards the center of her forehead before detaching and dissipating in the air.
A subtle light fades from a stunted halfling bloodspeaker's eyes.
A silver light faintly flickers around a stunted halfling bloodspeaker, then fades.```
bloodspeaker out here hoping that "Character Resilience" gets mistakenly applied to him too because he's a halfling

[vital coyote]

As you inch your way across a strange pile, you suddenly lose your footing and fall through!
You are impaled on a series of sharp wooden spikes!
   ... 25 points of damage!
   Elbow punctured, oh what pain!
   You are stunned for 3 rounds!``` someone please nerf the boss pile

[fringe fractal]

Encumbrance? Injuries? Armor? Armor training? Race? My elf blooded characters never fall on the pile. Of course I do train in climbing, keep encumbrance down and have good dex/agility bonuses due to race and not tanking the stats.

In my opinion those who appear to have the most issues with places like crossing the pile, have some of the issues above if not all. Min/maxing has it's costs. Not training in climbing and swimming, should have a cost in my opinion.

[urban socket]

If you survived after getting a 265 rolled against you, I hate you.

[fringe fractal]

lol there is that as well. hehe.

[urban socket]

[SMR result: 221 (Open d100: 139)]
   ... 49 points of damage!
   Permanently debilitating burns across stomach.
   You are stunned for 6 rounds!
>put str in th disk
An infernal death knight ignites with spectral cerulean flames as she splays a bony hand at Thaeren!
A wave of formless black ripples moves outward from an infernal death knight.
[SMR result: 87 (Open d100: 37, Bonus: 12)]
[SMR result: 214 (Open d100: 87, Bonus: 45)]
You are buffeted by the formless black waves, and knocked to the ground.
You are pinned in place, unable to move.
You are still stunned.
   ... 69 points of damage!
   Chest decompresses violently and explodes in a shower of bone and lung!
You suddenly feel less light-footed.```

Meanwhile, I got this instant one-two combo entering the room

[frail jetty]

   ... 35 points of damage!
   Right leg violently separates from hip socket and dematerializes into bloody mass.
[SMR result: 163 (Open d100: 186, Penalty: 9)]
Despite desperate windmilling to catch her balance, a grim gigas skald topples toward you!  In a vain attempt, you leap to dodge the collapsing skald, but the fullness of her weight strikes you with bone-shattering force, pinning you to the ground!

   ... 29 points of damage!
   Tremendous blow crushes skull like a ripe melon.```
also killed on full health 'walking into a room'

[vital coyote]

this is my mid 50s halfling rogue in doubles, 25 ranks climbing, walking TO hunt, so no injuries unencumbered.. I mean all that is why a 265 roll still only nets out to +80 "success" by the pile, but still, woof (I know this thread is now just who can have the biggest open roll but feh)

[fringe fractal]

Appreciate the info reply on that. Ouch. I'll say the climbing ranks feels low (to me). I tend to near single climbing & swimming until I hit 50 ranks for all my characters. Agility/Dex? Anyhow, off to go for a long motorcycle ride. Woke up from old man pre ride nap and thought I'd check this thread before heading out.

[vital coyote]

     Agility (AGI):   100 (35)    ...  100 (35)``` to me this is more about the 265 existing than my training

[fringe fractal]

Yup. Open rolls gonna open roll ,because that nimble halfling shouldn't have fallen.

[vestal obsidian]

[SMR result: 119 (Open d100: 72)]
... the wave heads right for you!
   ... 25 points of damage!
   Solid strike caves your skull in, resulting in instant death!

Yep...

[fringe fractal]

Its the potential critical result that needs to be capped with these SMR attacks. Dev have leaned too far into the open roll of the d100 with the results charts in my opinion. RoleMaster would limit certain result possibilities dependent on what it was.

What we have now is this open rolls (with a lot more bonuses) with unlimited results until everything that goes over if it hits the head, eye, neck is achieving the max critical on that location... which means death. 😦

I still don't think that Character Resilience is the path, it's a band aid but not a true fix or adjustment. (shrugs)

[grand jay]

You haven't truly lived (died) until that boar charge with a 101 endroll crit kills you because it hit your eye.

[wintry sleet]

Shadowy, fleshless limbs snatch from the other side the ghostly rift, their grasping claws flailing blindly through the aperture!
  SMR SvD: +13 + o100 roll: +161 == +174
Vile claws slash at you, their touch burning with otherworldly cold!
Your black vine anklet pulses briefly, deflecting some of the freezing damage!
   ... 30 points of damage!
   Icy blast leaves you blind in one eye.  But you won't need eyes anyway!```
I need you, resilience!

[hardy yoke]

174 is probably still gonna be a bad time

[wintry sleet]

20% resilience and 25% resistance I think I should survive
bad time, yes - but hopefully not dead?

[smoky pilot]

Hope to see this released soon. Had a nasty open roll flaming aura death yesterday that I’m pretty sure would have just been a long stun if resilience were live

[wintry sleet]

they got it on the test server so quickly - I'm curious why the long delay to go live now!

[supple thicket]

Crackling torrents of spectral energy erupt from the angargeist as it reforms, warping the air as they ripple outward!

[SMR result: 141 (Open d100: 79, Penalty: 14)]
  The disruptive wave pulses through you, rending flesh and sending shocks of agony racing down your spine!
A volatile ruby red latticework springs up from the surface of your rusalkoren platemail and shields you from some of the damage!
--- Lich: kswole has exited.
[hunt3:             UNDANSORMR IS {DEAD}             ]
Your body resists the disruptive damage and lessens the severity of the attack!
   ... 8 points of damage!
Trails of fiery scarlet race across your rusalkoren platemail as the rage within surges anew!
   Vertebrae ripped from body!  Your head falls into shoulders.```

Can I has now?

Fatal crit, resisted, 8 points of damage.

[pastel brook]

why does your script think you're an undansormr

[hardy yoke]

I’m cursing myself saying this, but I have avoided or taken tremendously minor damage from the “hey I’m back from hiding, stupid!” angargeist SMR. So when Ptolemy used to talk about getting wrecked by it and then seeing clips like that I’m like “huh”

[fringe fractal]

I just once again see smr results with unlimited critical results. The individual smrs need the tweaks in my opinion. Be strong UNDANSORMR! Be strong.

[supple thicket]

Writhing, milky tentacles burst forth from the tortured spatial anomaly, grasping blindly through the areas they glisten with vile humors.
[SMR result: 211 (Open d100: 163)]
With an agonizing crunch, a cold tentacle wraps around your abdomen and constricts violently as it whips you back toward the void!
A volatile ruby red latticework springs up from the surface of your rusalkoren platemail and shields you from some of the damage!
   ... 1 point of damage!
Trails of fiery scarlet race across your rusalkoren platemail as the rage within surges anew!
   Solid abdomen grapple, stomach bruised!
   You are knocked to the ground!
   You are stunned for 2 rounds!
Though you fall free from the predatory limbs, the tumultuous energies of the spatial anomaly tear at you, warping your flesh!
Your body resists the disruptive damage and lessens the severity of the attack!
   ... 53 points of damage!
Trails of fiery scarlet race across your rusalkoren platemail as the rage within surges anew!```
Oof, some terrible luck today.

Dead.

[hard marsh]

My guess is they are gonna tie it to gemstones or something. Or they are going to release it as soon as they start engaging with us about the bard review to distract people

[abstract pilot]

My honest guess is they thought it would be an easy buff — but then we had complicated thoughts on it, and it didn’t feel easy — so we just chilling on it.

[pastel brook]

The GMs should immediately implement this! Ban players who disagree!

[brave forge]

Maybe we accidentally proved it was too OP during wyrm testing.

[untold leaf]

Why? Cause it gave pures a 0.01% chance of survival and only squares are allowed to survive it? 😉

[grand jay]

They could have implemented this in the game without telling us and no one would have noticed nor cared. We'd have all carried on like we normally do, complaining about how often we were still dying (even if it was lessened by a little bit that we weren't aware of) from low SMR rolls.

[brittle crow]

That might be the math. It's kind of negligible.

[smoky pilot]

I am curious what the plan for resilience is though. Seems like it’s pretty well tested at this point. 🤷‍♂️

I heard a rumor they’re going to release it immediately after savants

[brittle crow]

Celtar has advocated SMR endrolls as the problem for a closer look

[fringe fractal]

Which I think is falling on deaf ears. Unlimited or what feels like unlimited Critical results for SMRs is the problem. Not everything needs to be able to or should be able to achieve the highest critical thresholds.

Instead the call has been to make our game mechanics play more like Dungeons & Dragons ttrpg or mmorpgs. Where we're just a bag of hit points. That's not what I came to play in GS back in 1992 when I returned from Europe after a decade.

I looked forward to playing a multi-player online rpg based on Rolemaster. Which tends to be top heavy to run as a GM for the tabletop rpg version of it. Was GS perfect? Nope, a lot of things weren't implemented back then though more was done as time when and then we had the deICEing with the loss of the license for Rolemaster and Shadow World(Kulthea), which was another plus to playing GS, the campaign setting for Rolemaster was pretty awesome.

As an aside, I'm actually really happy with all the lore added in recent years to fill all the gaps in the lore that was the deICEing (poor staff had to truly bust backside to remove all that IP that couldnt stay, kudos to them for what they did to), its feeling more coherent and meaty these days.

Anyhow, yeah I dont like this direction, I'm sure it will work. The devs have been doing a lot of great work in recent years with mechanics. I just feel the game will lose some of its flavor when we make moves that push more towards standard mmorpgs or the tabletop rpg D&D. Ah well.

[grand jay]

Don't forget that SMR is also based on level, at least from what I've gleaned from all my testing and using it.

If I use a SMR spell/ability against a like level creature and decent endroll, we'll say 130-160 range, is needed for satisfactory results.
If I use that same SMR attack against a creature 5 levels below me, that 130-160 endroll tends to hit/crit harder.
If I use that same SMR attack against a creature 5 levels above me, that 130-160 endroll tends to hit/crit softer.

Then you have to take into consideration some SMR is reduced by padding and armor crit divisor - which is why I always suggest to everyone to wear the highest AsG they are comfortably able to stand wearing. I say that because I've noticed that having my warmage in studded leather I've noticed SMR attacks often doing less crits over my mage in full leather. I've had my warrior in chain take boar charges with a 130-160 endroll and end up with a minor whereas I've had a mage take a 101 endroll and get crit killed because he was wearing robes.

In the end, it's not just the outrageous crits that can be generated from some spells/abilities that are the problem, it is also the level variance between the castie and caster that makes a difference in the end results. Perhaps the best, albeit the most work, is to take a look at each and every skill/spell and adjust them accordingly on the low-end side for how high they can crit and/or prevent the low endrolls from achieving crit kills.

[hard marsh]

Celtar, if you would help me understand your point a little more I’d appreciate it. You seem to dislike the direction the game has gone turning you into a “bag of walking hit points” but you also don’t like a mechanic that seems to be counter to that- which is something that can kill you regardless of how big your HP pool is. So where would you want this mechanic to be? If/when it gets toned down won’t the game be even more inclined to treat players like big bags of walking HPs?

[fringe fractal]

I'm fine with the mechanics of SMR, just to be clear. I'm not fine with leaning into it without correcting the issues that an SMR without ceilings cause. (see all the examples of what I call "Cheap cheat me deaths folks post". Dev needs to put caps on the possible out comes of some of these of these SMRs. The maximum possible amount of hit point damage and more importantly the maximum possible critical result. Its the max rank crits that are killing folks.

That's what people repeatedly (and rightly) complain about. With open rolls, plus potential bonuses, plus combat situational impacts. ( If you are prone your gonna be hit in the upper body more often) etc. All need to be toned down.

[timber peak]

I agree that there's an over-reliance on SMR in new critter design, but I think the reasons why are obvious: we've all worked so hard to make ourselves impervious to AS and TD. Compare the new ascension zones to the rift for example, which also has higher than 100 level critters: the rift is full of dispelling and casting critters, and some fairly hard hitting physical creatures, whereas in HW every critter has at least 1 maneuver to go along with everything else they do. Maneuvers are a solution to our basic imperviousness, because they hit all characters,

[fringe fractal]

Problem is Kerl, is that the majority of folks don't have the level gear that some of us have. That minority of geared players is impacting dev's mob design, negiatively.

[timber peak]

I would argue that most people hunting ascension have very high levels of gear and enhancives.

[near patio]

I think I agree that SMR was intended to mitigate power creep, which started to become an issue with DR + HESS, I don't know that I agree a global-implementation was the best solution. Edit: But it is what it is, and I guess "balancing" is always a game of shifting momentum and weight as one progresses.

[serene agate]

We need some SMR defense power creep. Oh, I guess that’s transcend destiny.

[timber peak]

To be fair to designers, what's the alternative? Everyone complains about dying, but it is, and should be a part of our expectations. Having said that, buying improvements to gear is a big part of revenue stream.

[timber peak]

Available soon at a HESS room near you.

[pastel brook]

This comparison is instructive because the rift is full of creatures with SMR attacks, showing that this thesis is not really sensible and that creatures have been getting maneuvers for like the last twenty years, before Duskruin existed. The reason creatures have maneuvers is that creatures without abilities are kobolds.

[near patio]

I don't know that there is a one size fits all solution, really. I happen to think the concept of SMR is a pretty creative solution to power creep, but I do think there could be more channels for building up defense against rolls. Transcend Destiny is a good shift in that direction, but would be helpul to have some more impactful solutions that didn't require earning enough experience to multi-cap.

[serene agate]

[SSR result: 201 (Open d100: 140)]
The ravager's screech startles you!
   ... 28 points of damage!
   Vertebrae ripped from body!  Your head falls into shoulders.
``` I think it's crazy that this maneuver has death crits. 'you get so startled your spine jumps out of your body!' at least it's kinda funny

[quaint herald]

Amusingly i started flicking down the creatures by level list looking to note things that have an SMR (including things that used to have a non-smr like ability that was converted cause, that sill counts) and it was so ubiquitous across level ranges i just stopped cause it's just like "yes". Spike thorns, webs, implosions, stone fist, earthen fury for days, tail sweeps, hand bites, pounces from like every cat-like mob, griffin rides, screechs, tackles, foot stomps, charges, poison stings, major ewaves, etc. etc. etc.

I think it's funny seeing the rolls actually made people more mad about maneuvers. It used to be "i dunno it hit me, what can you do" and now you see "oh it hit me cause of a high roll" and flip out.

[fringe fractal]

Again, the examples make my point for me. SMR's as a mechanic aren't the issue. SMR's with uncapped critical results are the problem.

[quaint herald]

it's doing banshee screech. you get started and also exploded (i wonder if the startled actually means it's stancing you, but i never paid attention)

[near patio]

Aside from Bard Luck Talismans, is there any item/gear-based defense against SMR? I can't think of any, but I'm sure there may be.

[quaint herald]

every relevant SMR skill and stat enhancive (more so the stats cause DR)
padding
resistance gear
pally standard T5
covert arts
any magic item with an SMR spell you wouldn't normally have

[near patio]

That makes sense. Yeah, I was leaving enhancives out of the mix as the obvious path with multiple routes including ASC). Both standards and covert arts I haven't played around with yet. I had no clue about the later SMR magic item factor.

[quaint herald]

some spells help your smr defense, it's not a ton for non-native casters i don't think but it's something if you're really worried about buttoning up that last few endroll.

covert arts you can get something like ~7% i think about total (there's some passive always on defense of a few percent from one skill and another gives you a chance to be treated in a more defensive stance, which would equate to another few percent)

pally standard T5 is a standard flare chance to reduce the hit you receive by 1 full crit rank (non-randomized unlike padding, just straight -1 crit rank).

[near patio]

Ah! Now I follow. With the magic items you were referring to access to the spells themselves. Think I'm going to have to snag a standard soon, and covert arts I'll circle back around to checking out. Thanks!

[quaint herald]

standards are awesome, pew pew flares. keen eye (passive 3% SMR defense) and sidestep (chance to be considered a higher stance, as well as some situational defense from things like major ewave, call wind (aoe maneuver things basically)

[hardy yoke]

I’m not really clear why we need SSR at all when SMR exists

[pastel brook]

SMR is for when somebody is targeting your body with an attack. SSR is for when somebody is targeting your FEELINGS with MEANNESS

[hardy yoke]

When MDR drops maybe we can kill SSR

[timber peak]

This is inaccurate on a couple of levels. Most of the maneuvers you referenced are, or were spells. Some have been converted to maneuver-like spells. When the rift was created there were no maneuvers. I think spell casting critters are far more deadly than kobolds. Maneuvers have been added over the years, and add some very interesting layering to what's possible in GS, particularly for squares, for which they were originally designed. Most of what was dangerous in the rift in years past was spells, and every plane has at least one critter that can also dispell you, which is a challenge amplified by the particulars of rift mechanics (no spell burst, but you can only wear spells you could possibly learn). The Scatter is vastly different than HW for example, even though they have critters of similar levels.

[junior forge]

maneuvers have been around for a long long time, and were part of the rift since the beginning, however that was before smrv2, so things used old maneuver systems like boil earth (yeah spell I know) or roa'ter burrow/explosion, disarm just to name a few, all of these got converted to smrv2 later, but they existed before that.

One big thing that changed really overall was psm which made many maneuvers much stronger than they were before (single target bonuses and such), like tackle, making those much more apparent when they are used than before.

I do agree though that ascension grounds have gone a bit overboard IMO with SMR moves, and a balance of spells would be good. I think I've done a hive hunt before and not seen a single AS attack, just nothing but smr and SSR (stupid ravager scream SSR BS)

[timber peak]

The rift predates any and all SMR systems. Any "maneuvers" were the creation of the maker of the rift, such as a caedera burrow. Other creatures such as rift worms (one of my ideas, you're welcome), came much later. A lot has changed there over the 25 or so years it's been in existence. Meanwhile, HW, by comparison was designed with maneuvers, and spells that are basically maneuvers, from the start, with them atthe core of lethality in the hunting area. They're different areas. I agree with pretty much everything else you're saying @junior forge

[pastel brook]

phrases like "maneuver-like spells" really demonstrate the confusion of terminology that lies behind this discussion. the rift predated SMR, but it contained attacks and spells that used alternate resolution systems. those are and have always been maneuvers, which is why most of them have been converted to SMR. some of them were spells, some of them were physical, but they were and have always been maneuvers, because that's how they make creatures actually dangerous. most spellcasting creatures are not much more dangerous than kobolds -- unless they cast "maneuver-like spells."

[quaint herald]

Or they’re level 110+ asc things casting from the sphere everyone is weakest to.

<laughs in 1414>

[brave forge]

goes to Duskruin request form to suggest creating a script called SMR Flares that flares maneuver spells

[quaint herald]

It’s like regular flares but can miss.

[brave forge]

Yes, but the important part is that people will ask which property slot it takes up and if they can really be called maneuver spells instead of just maneuvers if there's no mana cost.

[modest hill]

Oh, I look forward to Cat E maneuver spell slots.

[quaint herald]

Script maneuver ability flares where the shop that sells them is called Material Floursh

[urban socket]

Best I can do is the stolen power legendary gemstone property

[vital coyote]

oh you mean dispel and battle standard and somnis and rusalkoren and animalistic armor flares

[little marsh]

Resilience

Resilience is now live.

[indigo rover]

I never thought this would come to be... I think this might be my #1 biggest gripe about Gemstone.

[quaint herald]

Interestingly it shows up in HEALTH where redux is displayed for one character I have logged in but not another. The difference I assume being the one it shows up for has physical redux, the other is a pure and does not.

Since it is ubiquitous not sure it's worth forcing to show up so people know about this that don't read discord or anything or just letting them happily be crit less in blissful ignorance.

[vestal obsidian]

Yeah my semi with no redux doesn't have it show in health either.

[urban socket]

You must have any value of Redux for it to show on your HEALTH command

 Physical Damage Reduction: 2.46%
  Magical Damage Reduction: 20.00%```
On my bard.

But blank on my wizard

[modest hill]

Confusing.

[hard marsh]

Weird - blank on my empath too...I know I had like 1% redux or something showing beforehand. Maybe a problem with those that have less than 20% redux?

[urban socket]

Does this mean that the full effects of Redux on AS resolved Attacks was taken care of?

It's... different than full Redux though

But, for magic attacks, the way that the magic redux is currently implemented, it would work fully for those instances

... It's weird

[stoic meadow]

I might never die again

[abstract pilot]

This is like KS lite, right. Serious question, is there now more value in not being KS?

[urban socket]

So, for AS resolved attacks, Redux, in it's current form, is applied twice on the equation... once on the Raw damage, and then again post-critical tier and damage calculation. Resilience does not directly modify Raw Damage, or post-critical tier/damage actual blood loss results. HOWEVER, the critical tier is subject to a phantom reduction of the raw damage by resilience.

So while resilience will result in a lower crit tier, and thus a lower blood loss, Redux will apply twice to the blood loss in the equation, and save you a LOT of blood loss along the way

20% redux would result in 36% observed reduced blood loss... subject to truncation rounding along the way.

[abstract pilot]

Got it, I think. But if you’re not worried about blood loss… seems like this devalues KS as a choice? Or at least changes the equation.

[stoic meadow]

Estild just cratered death salve market

[vestal obsidian]

Doesn't take anything away from KS, and KS still gets higher than 20% magic redux no?

[hard marsh]

Yeah - I have 37.21 magic redux

[fringe fractal]

So, semis show it and pures don't?

[urban socket]

It depends... Based on the initial conversation regarding Resilience, I believe for SMR resolved attacks, we would see a Crit teiring reduction of 20%, but not a blood loss reduction of 20%... the equation is inherently different for SMR/CS resolved attacks.

[slow thicket]

Lulz. None of my semis have redux, 2x spells too stronk. So all blanks.

[urban socket]

So seeing it as the Magic Redux, I'm uncertain if that's intended, or further reaching than the anticipated design

[stoic meadow]

2x spell semis now OP

[opaque trench]

I think KS loses a little value, but nothing beats never ever having to mindful of spells you are wearing

[urban socket]

KS's value is more in the KS absorb, and the 10%+(90% Redux) for physical redux to hit fairly obscene tiers. And to dedicate EXP more towards AScension earlier in your leveling career

[slow thicket]

Weird. My warrior (not KS) had 30% magic for a second:

 Physical Damage Reduction: 45.58%
  Magical Damage Reduction: 30.00%```

Subsequent HEALTH checks report `20.00%`

[urban socket]

I would anticipate the reason we haven't heard more is that they're adjusting things on the backend right now

[stoic meadow]

RIP all KS now capped at 20% magic res. massive nerf

[vestal obsidian]

I don't see KS losing anything. I don't think KS should be an oh well I can't survive I better start using this crutch. KS should be a choice of that's how you want to play.

[hardy yoke]

If I didn't need Martial Mastery to use weapons (lol monk AS) I would probably not be KS anymore post Resilience. Ah well, what I'm doing works for me just fine

[urban socket]

So, lets let the dust settle for more than 5 minutes before saying the sky is falling... Unless you're in canada where it's snowing

[opaque trench]

Yeah, this right here. Just wish my bard could learn KS

[abstract pilot]

A bard not using magic… sounds… rough.

[urban socket]

Use Song of Noise!

[fringe fractal]

KS didn't lose anything. They just didnt gain anything.

[urban socket]

KS simulator

[abstract pilot]

Right. But if they didn’t lose anything, and one of the benefits is now otherwise available without it, characters might take a look at the implications and now make a different choice, right?

[vestal obsidian]

Isn't having choices a good thing?

[fringe fractal]

So checking my various pures and semi's. Only my monk is seeing anything. My sorcercer, wizard, cleric. Nadaa.

[opaque trench]

New bard mode unlocked.

[hard marsh]

actually very very old bard mode.

[abstract pilot]

It’s fine either way — I’m not arguing value — I’m trying to understand the choice I now have.

[urban socket]

You must have any physical redux to see the Redux on the health prompt. However, I would anticipate the Magic line on there to be erroneous at the moment

[stoic meadow]

my ranger:
Physical Damage Reduction: 8.47%
Magical Damage Reduction: 20.00%

[vestal obsidian]

I don't see resilience taking the place of KS. If you went KS because you were getting wrecked, you're still gonna get wrecked. If you wen KS because you enjoy the playstyle, that choice hasn't changed imo.

[fringe fractal]

So far, warriors have pretty much been all over the place as far as being KS or not, or being magical. I was just stating that my KS warrior didn't appear to lose or gain anything from this change. Now, once dev's starts tweaking mobs, SMR etc maybe he'll gain or lose. Who knows.

[urban socket]

A relative competitive advantage loss does not mean an absolute loss.

[hardy yoke]

They're slow-roll nerfing KS over time by making non-KS more appealing. Smart

[hard marsh]

I wonder what the numbers show for the professions that can take KS , how many actually are. Seems like rogues KS is still very much in the minority.

[hardy yoke]

There's no real reason to be KS now once you have the exp for spells

[junior forge]

On test I remember being able to see the magic redux on my sorcerer from resilience, so it might still be some quirks being worked through. Anyways happy to see this go live.

[opaque trench]

I assume yes, but SSR is included in this?

[urban socket]

I did receive confirmation they're looking into the health verb. Resilience is NOT the same as Magic Redux, and they're fixing the perception of it.

[junior forge]

Yup, anything not as/ds

[fringe fractal]

I'm starting to think that myself. I'd been thinking about it due to how I hunt and how much KS can be a hassle post cap for various reasons. Seeing how well the magic using warriors do, makes me now think that just dropping KS now might be the way.

[hard marsh]

Even if the GMs gave me all the exp I needed to get spells on my warrior/rogue I wouldn't drop KS. I love it.

[modest hill]

But being able to cast all the spells has always (i thought) been "better" than KS, it just takes forever to get there and most people won't. Resiliance doesn't really change that does it?

[hardy yoke]

If monks didn't need martial mastery to use weapons effectively, I'd for sure be casting again post-resilience. But I have painted myself into a KS forever corner

[hard marsh]

You can cast anyways as KS monks! How friggen cool is that?

[slow thicket]

It's also multiple millions of exp for spells (full 1x cap just for 75 MnE if I mathed correctly, for warriors), which in the face of completing core training + ASC priorities (especially so if aiming for gemstones) is still pretty daunting

[fringe fractal]

This new resilience feels like a bandaid that would mean I could avoid some of the hassles of KS to gain Resilience and some magic earlier. Make sense?

[urban socket]

That's pretty much my side of things. Sure, spells versus no spells. Spells are going to be better, but now it's a question of spells versus KS+ATP... Well, I'd rather start on the ATP journey a little earlier.

[modest hill]

Sure, but I don't think having an option aside from all or nothing is terrible. Also, that's really a false choice to be honest. My warrior is at 9M exp and has 15 spell ranks. So he'll be what like 4x cap before he has any "meaningful" magic

[urban socket]

Sure, the wrong choice is always a choice too 😜

[modest hill]

as is failure to choose.

[pastel brook]

Yes, this is a relative reduction in the value of KS and a relative improvement in the value of heavy armor, health points, and other things that stack with resilience.

[shy linden]

I think it's grossly overvaluing resilience to think it would replace the value KS adds for durability

[abstract pilot]

Thank you. My comment was not an expression of value — meaning I’m not saying this is good or bad compared to KS — just trying to make sure I understand.

But, I am saying, for purposes of my ranger semi, this is good.

[pastel brook]

Yes, for the vast majority of characters this is just a straight buff, as the doctor ordered.

[hardy yoke]

As a KS monk main it is a bit of a drag to gain nothing from this update (and, really, any other update since PSM3). Hopefully tattoos can be good one day.

[serene agate]

it's.. 0/120 per spell rank for warriors.. so you'll end up converting PTP to MTP.. so it comes out to 200k exp per spell (Edit: Maths are hard)

20m to get 70 MnE, 30 MnS. 19m if you do 75 MnE, 25 MnS i nstead.

Be a Rogue instead! it's a little more than half that

[urban socket]

Ehh, squares have a LOT more synergies for TP while leveling. Unless we break up PF to have 4 different forms, one to give max HP, three different ones for HP regen and verbs... and then separate out MOC to use one for defensive purposes, and then one for AoE attacks, and also make all the costs higher than PF currently is for squares...

[fringe fractal]

I'll just give my awesome armor and weapon etc to my paladin and call it good, since this is a solid buff for semi's. lol

[hardy yoke]

Squarestone had a nice run

[pastel brook]

Did it?

[vestal obsidian]

Isn't it only natrual that in going from Purestone to Squarestone that Semistone is naturally on top?

[urban socket]

not yet

[slow thicket]

Why are you guys getting hit? Reslience should be a non-factor.

[worthy swallow]

so you think resilience is supposed to affect the "incoming damage" that determines the crit level (before randomization), but it shouldn't be applied to reduce the damage again (resulting from crit + incoming damage), right?

[vestal obsidian]

Isn't getting hit KS's thing?

[urban socket]

not quite. Give me a moment

[fringe fractal]

Being a KS, voln, 2hander warrior was fun, you had to be on your toes and it was work. Speically since I don't do Crys really or Bigshot. It was action combat, but it was fatiguing and post cap frequently frustrating due to competition with script hunters.

Actually had become not worth it, which is why I had stopped playing Celtar in recent months and playing mmorpgs once again mostly with some alt character GS play. Now? I don't see KS at all worth the bother. Been getting a serious reminder since I've been hunting my sorcerer (Who has always been my laid back lazy hunting), wizard and cleric that I don't need to play action combat and can just chill.

So yeah, looking mostly like when i play GS I'll simply play one of my pures and give my gear to my paladin when I want to play him. That said, I wish they put as much effort into expanding the hunting areas post cap so competing with script hunters was less of a PITA and making me not want to log in.

[supple thicket]

Script hunters or MA hunters? I think lots of folks script but MA hunters going through grounds with 4+ people is a different experience

[urban socket]

Resilience will not reduce any blood loss from any source.

Resilience is meant to reduce the critical tiers that you obtain. This is accomplished by granting a phantom 20% reduction of Raw Damage used to determine Critical Tier. So if you have sustained 10 raw damage and are in robes (Divisor 5), rather than a Tier 2 to then be subject to critical randomization, you'd start as a Tier 1 due to the 20% reduction down to 8.

This phantom reduction of Raw Damage for the critical tier calculation does not reduce blood loss. Only Redux will reduce blood loss observed by either the raw damage or phantom damage.

[worthy swallow]

makes sense, thanks! and that's good, makes KS still very differentiated

[fringe fractal]

Oh hell, don't' get me started on on the MA armies. Thats a terrible experience for sure. Worse then trying to compete with the Script hunters.

[fringe fractal]

Your acting like we're not understanding what Resilience does and keep repeating the statement of what Resilience is. ;p

[urban socket]

Because I was responding to Ralkean asking for a clarification

[hardy yoke]

Uncap the martial mastery AS bonus. Going full physical should be BETTER for a square than magic, not equal.

[fringe fractal]

Ah, well that's what replying to make much much clearer. Instead of doing a general reply. Or at least mentioning the poster in the post. Thanks for the clarification.

[bold rivet]

It seems like if you don't have redux naturally it doesn't show up for the magic side in health?

[torn pond]

I don't understand why we're changing the nature of professions as opposed to adjusting the mechanics the creatures are using that are causing this issue.

[urban socket]

Correct, they're in the midst of solutioning that

It's not magical redux, it's something different, so it will be removed from that messaging.

[fringe fractal]

I tried to point that out. That controling the potential critical results/ceilings on various SMRs felt like the better part but I never got a response from a Dev GM, which is normal for me. I frequently feel like I'm screaming into the void when I talk about mechanics or worse World of Warcraft's Barrens chat. lol

[pastel brook]

The mechanic in question is “crit rank determination” and that’s what they changed.

[torn pond]

Well, the way things are going I'll probably just move into ranger at some point. They keep boosting every weakness casters have to make them more like warriors seemingly.

[urban socket]

not mutually exclusive actions. Changes to creatures require more discussion with particular intents of particular hunting areas, and are generally slower, as creatures are attributes of hunting grounds/etc. If you do see particular creatures with seemingly too deadly maneuvers, it's worth continuing to point them out.

[fringe fractal]

Its a large band aid over all SMR, versus just tweaking as desired various SMRs.

[pastel brook]

It is a large bandaid because that’s what was called for, not specifically over SMR but over combat in general.

[supple thicket]

I think an important note is that this fix covers all future SMRs which is a big deal for new hunting grounds versus having to tweak everything individually.

[pastel brook]

The fact that warrior players are interpreting this as primarily a change to SMR when it applies to all forms of incoming combat damage is actually relevant to why they made this particular change.

[little saddle]

good change. Nice job. I don't even play a pure anymore, but this was a much needed modernization

[urban socket]

Lets keep it civil

[pastel brook]

The point of this meme is that the magical tape works and the tank no longer leaks, right?

[slow thicket]

Another important aspect I think is that it also covers systems that aren't subject to endroll. Meaning, those systems that are "roll to hit" like flares where a 101 is effectively the same as a 301

[supple thicket]

Like 1706?

[abstract pilot]

I also don’t love the idea — even though it’s too late — that we’re giving just players buffs (and not mobs) — instead of looking at broader mechanical changes and profession reviews. But, I’m glad this is done. I just hope it’s a stop gap and not the end destination.

[pastel brook]

This is a broad mechanical change!

[urban socket]

There's a pretty big problem when the answer to, "What type of attack can a pure survive better than a square" and the answer is "None".

The gap has become too wide as we look to introduce more bosses and bigger styles of encounters. This was made very obvious during testing of the wyrm battle. Mechanics like Instant-Death enables 0 counterplay, and makes death simply winning the lottery when being hit.

[abstract pilot]

I’m not going to argue whether it is or is not. I think it is. Don’t want to have a semantic argument.

[fair pine]

This is live now? My wizard just took a dreadsteed charge the chest.

[little saddle]

How does baseline resilience work If you do or dont have MagicDux (from Kroderine Soul)? It seems like redux > 20% wins, but in the case of someone without MagicDux they have effectively 0% redux in that subset of resolutions. Apologies if it's been asked before, I can't seem to find an answer via discord's horrible search and am not going to read all the messages

[urban socket]

They're both applied. So the magic redux will continue to reduce blood loss, but the 20% value will be used for critical tiering calculations.

[digital mirage]

It is live in Prime and Platinum. It is not yet live in Shattered

[fair pine]

This was in prime, but probably a lack of cman training

[torn pond]

I face pretty much the same thing walking through ascension areas where I get cast at immediately upon walkin with a TD level that can't possibly prevent a warding roll. Are warriors going to get 20% automatic magical redux as well to compensate for that?

[supple thicket]

What pure has a TD that prevents warding rolls in ascension areas?

[little saddle]

Yes.

>health
<bunch of nonsense>
Physical Damage Reduction: 24.81%
  Magical Damage Reduction: 20.00%

Literally just turned on for me

[urban socket]

Yes, everyone gets the same baseline resilience. Including non-KS warriors

[quaint herald]

Everyone has at least 20% "magic" (which is a misnomer. it's really "just not AS/DS")

It only displays in health, apparently, if you have some form of redux from training.

[junior forge]

they are apparently working on the wording I think

[fair pine]

i see that redux messaging on all of my characters that aren't still afflicted with the Green Death. No redux notification on that character.

[hardy yoke]

can i get a buff that i log on tomorrow and i have +25 AS for free

[quaint herald]

https://tenor.com/view/what-year-gif-19616587

[fair pine]

The Green Death will live foreva

[quaint herald]

it is pretty funny that apparently it's not redux making it print but that means there's apparently some generic "you need to print some extra crap in health" routine that can be called by other things. what else makes health print extra stuff? 😄

[urban socket]

having redux > 0%

[fringe fractal]

hehe

[quaint herald]

https://tenor.com/view/but-why-male-model-gif-11945749

[slow thicket]

idk why, but this sparked a memory of some code I encountered many moons ago as an intern, $thisVariableWillEndAllThatIsSweet=true that was literally just an indicator to stop some imbedded html table generation at some predetermined point so that the hardcoded CSS that rounded the final cells stayed pretty.

[quaint herald]

// DO NOT DELETE THIS FUNCTION. IT IS UNUSED BUT DOING SO TAKES DOWN THE GAME

[frail pond]

wanders in after seeing some announcement about fluffy-pads for all

Had we had time to actually de-ICE properly vs the "OMG DO IT NAO!" directive we had when AOL went live, the critical tables were one of the things that Cyper, Raemus and I wanted to change the most. They were designed for a 20 level game, and even back when level 20 was a "big deal" in GS terms, they never really translated all that well to a rapid pace combat system. (i.e. Turned based, they would make sense, because you'd have some time to think about your tactics)

That said, the effort of actually modifying the combat system to utilize a different critical structure basically means "Hey, re-design the combat system from the ground up" which is a huge undertaking.

[urban socket]

All I'm hearing is that it's all Erek's fault ❤️

[little marsh]

It should no longer show up in HEALTH or COMBAT DEFENSE.

[hot thunder]

No.

🙂

[hardy yoke]

Everyone except KS players are getting free buffs I had to shoot my shot

[slow thicket]

Oh hey, when did discord add the Jump To Top button. Finally.

[hot thunder]

now if they could add a "stay on topic" button, we'd be all set.

Hehe

[quaint herald]

i remember seeing it about a month ago or something. and, yes. now if they could just like make searching not awful in threads and forums, and let you search by poster role most of the super annoying (platform) issues are handled.

[abstract pilot]

https://tenor.com/view/yay-kitty-cat-happy-excited-gif-20777520

[frail pond]

Bruh we had like two weeks!

[sudden coral]

great changes! glad to see changes to get rid of the dreaded 100 to instant death so that we have counter play

[abstract pilot]

Can we add this for mobs too?

[indigo rover]

Rogues: Nooooooo!

[abstract pilot]

I don’t understand this sentiment. Why should there be different systems?

If there are changes to minimize “cheap” player deaths, why not also change players benefiting from “cheap” deaths?

[pastel brook]

Because players typically kill 100s of mobs to each individual death. Why should they use the same system? The goal is not to have players and mobs have the same game experience.

[abstract pilot]

Are there other combat systems that apply differently?

[pastel brook]

Almost every system in the entire game works differently for mobs than for players.

[junior forge]

there are plenty of things that apply differently

[abstract pilot]

Huh. I assumed it all applied the same. Well, that’s less fun to know.

[junior forge]

RT and Spell Casting are both fundamental core systems that work very different for both players and creatures. Just for two big obvious examples.

[abstract pilot]

I didn’t know this. How so?

[junior forge]

so creatures, on spawn have a set RT for everything they do, attack, manuever, moving rooms, standing, and so on. They do sometimes have things they can do while in RT like critters that bounce back up and attack at the same time, but their RT is always set, doesn't depend on their actions or weapons.

For spell casting, creatures use the prep/cast system they can't just "incant", to prep a spell and then cast, this existed too back in the 90's for players but was removed eventually because it was not a fun system, however it remained on creatures as that gave players a chance to potentially do things to counter spells in various ways, because well spells were/are dangerous.

[abstract pilot]

Thanks for taking the time to type this out. I didn’t know this.

[junior forge]

there are some other examples out there (such as specific spells like 917 working differently for players vs creatures), but I think those are probably two of if not the two oldest players are different than creatures examples I can think of quickly

All in all I think these are all decisions aimed at making player experience better.

[abstract pilot]

I guess I thought if mobs could afford simucoins to farm bloodscrip, to get uber weapons, they would have the same experience (not kidding). I assumed the major difference was related to gear access and training choices, not on mechanical system differences. The why is because I thought they had the same mechanical chance to kill me, as I have to kill them. That parity is/was a part of what I thought made the game fun.

[brave forge]

Mmmmm. Every character I have is happy to wake up today.

[brave forge]

I think you meant that the other way around?

[pastel brook]

this is a larger topic worth discussing in a different channel, but I think the short version is it's a testament to the creature design that you have that perspective, because that's how they want you to feel. but I suspect you do things all the time in combat situations that mobs cannot do, without realizing that they are part of your inbuilt advantage over the mobs. I certainly do!

[abstract pilot]

That link had bad language - oof. Sorry! (Insert burst my bubble gif instead).

[brave forge]

I've read through all the morning talk and one point I didn't see raised is that resilience doesn't even necessarily mean the game gets easier. Obviously that depends on the definition of easy, of course, but as an example...

Last month they nerfed Flaming Aura for creatures only because it was killing players on too low of endrolls. They didn't have to do that, as they could have just taken Flaming Aura away from creatures and replaced it with something else. But clearly they felt the scales were too imbalanced.

Now the scales have actually been further imbalanced, as Flaming Aura is even less likely to kill anyone...

...but the corollary is that they could more freely give it out to creatures in the future precisely because it doesn't kill people, but does deal damage, thus adding complicating factors and making combat more dynamic.

tl;dr: Attrition gameplay incoming?!

[hardy yoke]

The game is definitely moving away from the smaller races if that's the case. 165 HP feels real bad lol.

[fair pine]

Empath service will help with that

[hardy yoke]

Maybe if they give it its own slot like paladins got! I have no open functionals!

[pastel brook]

BLOODSTONE PIERCING

[brave forge]

I mean, I'm not sure I'd expect it to be super frequent, but this seems like an easy inroad to piling more wounds on more players more often. It's kind of like how they stick environmental damage (or environmental debuffs in the case of Moonsedge) everywhere every time these days at cap just to make sure players are getting hurt.

[hardy yoke]

If that's the case hopefully they revisit how ranged users and pures can get completely shut down by a couple of stacked wounds

[supple thicket]

Big reason I switched to GoS, sigil of determination is great

[fair pine]

can you still use bows with limb wounds and sigil of determination?

[supple thicket]

[SMR result: 213 (Open d100: 165)]
An eyeless black valravn vaporizes into a swirl of cold, black mist that streaks toward you in a blur of shadowy, intangible feathers!  The vaporous cloud penetrates your magical defenses and washes over you in a chaotic onslaught!
   ... 1 point of damage!
Trails of fiery scarlet race across your rusalkoren platemail as the rage within surges anew!
   Strips of flesh disappear from your back.
A volatile ruby red latticework springs up from the surface of your rusalkoren platemail and shields you from some of the damage!
   ... 1 point of damage!
Trails of fiery scarlet race across your rusalkoren platemail as the rage within surges anew!
   You wince as the cold blast numbs your left arm
Your body resists the disruptive damage and lessens the severity of the attack!
   ... 8 points of damage!
Trails of fiery scarlet race across your rusalkoren platemail as the rage within surges anew!
   Your skull cracks with an audible "Pop"!
   You are stunned for 2 rounds!
Weeping darkness, a translucent fiery red shield springs into being between you and your attacker to temper the blow!
Your body resists the disruptive damage and lessens the severity of the attack!
   ... 1 point of damage!
Trails of fiery scarlet race across your rusalkoren platemail as the rage within surges anew!
   Your vertebrae vibrate causing extreme pain.
The freezing essence is drawn toward your widowwood anklet, where it is consumed with an abrupt burst of light!
   ... 1 point of damage!
Trails of fiery scarlet race across your rusalkoren platemail as the rage within surges anew!
   Chilly blast to the chest causes heart to skip a beat.
An eyeless black valravn dwindles back into its avian form.```
Working as intended. =p

[stoic meadow]

RIP, welcome to DisneyStoneIV

[hot thunder]

obviously not a great example... wearing full plate!

clearly sus

[brave forge]

It's more the disruption resistance and ranger resistance that's doing the work there, heh.

[stoic meadow]

Wait is that rage armor? Did that 1 hit just give you 1+1+8+1+1 AS? resilience nerfing your whale items!

[fair pine]

only answer here is to give rage armor an extra ability to increase +AS on cooldown.

[hot thunder]

Resilience isn’t changing anything about rage armor

If you want to get hit harder just lie down

[supple thicket]

I was mainly commenting that an open roll deathnado didn't end me or my hunt.

[simple sable]

This is just incredible

[quaint herald]

I mean, that doesn't look all that different from hits i had a month ago, resist is good (almost all the hits thre have some resist) and so is mana armor (which is making a rank 3 or 4 crit in there do 1 damage cause it's lol up to 40 damage padding). Also something else i'm not sure what the messaging is p5 pally maybe?

An eyeless black valravn vaporizes into a swirl of cold, black mist that streaks toward you in a blur of shadowy, intangible feathers!  The vaporous cloud penetrates your magical defenses and washes over you in a chaotic onslaught!
   ... 1 point of damage!
   Patches of flesh removed from right hand.
Your wiregrass anklet pulses briefly, deflecting some of the freezing damage!  The anklet glints one last time, then grows dim.
   ... 1 point of damage!
   You wince as the blast numbs your right arm.
Your wiregrass anklet pulses briefly, deflecting some of the freezing damage!  The anklet glints one last time, then grows dim.
   ... 2 points of damage!
   You just got the cold shoulder!
Your wiregrass anklet pulses briefly, deflecting some of the freezing damage!  The anklet glints one last time, then grows dim.
   ... 1 point of damage!
   Chilly blast to the head.  Where is that cap Mom knitted for you!?
An eyeless black valravn dwindles back into its avian form.```

(pre resilience) highest roll i can find within the last month.  Nice of it to random all freezing damage for me at least lol.

[fair pine]

https://tenor.com/view/bold-strategy-dodgeball-cotton-strategy-tactics-gif-4957668

[simple sable]

I need to add resists to my armor.

[vital coyote]

as a KS warrior, I do not care about this

[simple sable]

I’m a full spells monk. 23% redux. So I’ll be getting nothing. It’s great for a huge part of the population. So bring it

[blazing fable]

Its pretty lame honestly. Warriors have to give up a good bit to get some decent redux through KS and here we are just giving the entire game 20% damage resistance for free 😆

I'll take half of every pures capstone as payment for them taking our redux

[digital mirage]

If you don't have KS, I think you'd still be getting benefit

[pastel brook]

No more clear example of the principle that there’s nothing gemstone players hate more than other gemstone players getting things

[urban socket]

That's not how damage resistance works.

[grand jay]

I guess this Resilience thing doesn't bother me much, but I'd have much rather seen better ways to handle things.

With all ranks a square can put into SMR defense skills (PF/Perception/Dodge/CM), along with being able to 2x or even 3x in armor use, the AP penalty on heavier armors is countered and at many times overcome with ease when comparing SMR defense a square gets to what a pure and even what some semis get.

Meaning, a capped square that is 2x in SMR defense skills with 2x Armor Use in metal breast plate has an AP of -12.
A pure in full leather has an AP of -1.
With no other difference in race/stats/skills, just wearing metal breastplate means that character would have -11 to their SMR defense over just wearing full leather. However, all the extra ranks squares can sink into SRM defense ranks compared to a pure they can easily negate that -11 penalty and still have better SMR defense. Plus with having a higher crit divisor with being in plate squares kind of shake off a lot of SMR attacks that would easily cripple or outright kill a pure.

OR

Adjust SMR skills and the crit rank ceiling they can reach on low-end rolls:
101-110 cannot outright kill you, ever (been killed by 101, 102 and 103 endrolls before - it sucks)
111-120 can maybe kill you say, 15% chance
121-130 can maybe kill you say, 35% chance
131+ works like it does now, no cap on % to crit kill you. This is where being a square and well trained semi in heavier armor becomes beneficial over pures in robes/light armors.

[slow thicket]

That model assumes all SMRs are created equal, which I do not think would be a good design (and certainly doesn't reflect the current state). I think individual SMRs are more accurately compared as if they were different weapon bases. Players have a tendency to lump them all together because they have a very obfuscated and sparse output, but it would equally be a mistake to lump all AS/DS resolutions into the same bucket. A 110 endroll from SMR-A might be comparable to dagger, whereas SMR-B might be more like a lance.

Also it ignores the aforementioned differentiation of "roll to hit" vs "roll for outcome" types of SMR. So, in summary, SMR is merely the face of a wide variety of differing mechanisms that have only it in common - and that's where the similarities might end.

[pastel brook]

one constant in this thread is people saying "they could have solved this in a better way" and then proposing changes that solve a totally different problem in a worse way

[blazing fable]

I mean why do you think all the whales are quitting Tikba

[modest hill]

And complaining about people getting things that aren't them.

[blazing fable]

I mean implementing cool new redux and being like "hey squares this is like your whole spiel, but you get nothing, good day sir" is a pretty amusing take

[hot thunder]

that isn't really what happened at all...

this doesn't even affect AS vs DS combat

[modest hill]

I mostly play pures...let me step back to PSM3....

[blazing fable]

Let me step back to wizards (and bards, and empaths) being superior warriors for 30 years before psm3

[modest hill]

See, it never ends, kinda my point. People get things. That doesn't make those that didn't worse off in a non-competitive game.

[blazing fable]

It might not be a competitive game but there were still competitive aspects, being the last man standing in an invasion, having bigger numbers than your friends, etc.

[modest hill]

You may perceive some sort of self set metric in which there is a competition, but this is a PvE game, there's no actual competition.

[blazing fable]

Auctions were PvP 😀

[hot thunder]

Complaining about people not dying instantly in your group seems like a strange bed to make.

But you can I guess.

[abstract pilot]

That’s why I haven’t proposed anything.

[digital mirage]

Just to make sure - y'all know that resilience doesn't apply in the same situations as redux, right?

[modest hill]

No they clearly don't

[brave forge]

What's stopping you? My warrior already casts 435. Works absolute wonders with Carn's Cry! 😛

[pastel brook]

TPs

[blazing fable]

I mean I guess I don't really care, Kenstrom leaving has pretty much killed most of my desire to come back to the game anyways, so I'll just go back to off topic

[brave forge]

But anyway, as mentioned many times, semis are the real winners here.

Resilence helps most in the cases where your defenses were just short of sufficient to save you, which is vastly more likely for medium armor than light armor.

[modest hill]

Dang it, I only have 1 semi. That's it roll it back. My other 8 characters demand satisfaction.

[pastel brook]

In fairness semis are the winners in most other systems so it makes sense for them to win this one too

[olive coral]

I just noticed your avatar. My fam just finished watching OtGW this week, very solid show

Oops that's #socializing! I think resilience is p kewl too

[vestal obsidian]

It's kind of funny how many people come in here claiming resilience is something it's not!

[digital mirage]

It's understandable. It's a bit confusing.

[simple sable]

Im glad it's here.

[brave forge]

Me too. Just need Gemstones to go live now since I can surely luck through the wyrm sooner or later and the equation just tilted toward sooner!

[digital mirage]

Just to be more clear - resilience doesn’t protect you from anything that physical redux protects you from

It does protect you from some things that magical redux protects you from… though many of those things aren’t actually magic… which is a separate issue

[abstract pilot]

Right — so my original question when this was released — was: should this change cause ks squares any reconsideration of the choice to be ks. The sense I’m getting from folks here is that ks’ primary benefits are in areas other than magidux, so while it may somewhat play a role, it isn’t a big enough factor to change just because of the otherwise availability of magidux.

So, in conclusion, my rogue is going to stay KS. And my ranger and wizard are just going to enjoy the new benefits.

[wintry sleet]

so uhh magical redux protects you from things like charge? I would think resilience and normal redux protect from that but I guess I'm wrong

[brave forge]

Yeah (to Leff), I’d only go KS if I liked the playstyle of Absorb Magic and Dispel Magic, which haven’t changed much in relative value just because of resilience.

[quaint herald]

There are basically two types of damage. As/ds and everything else. “Magic” is the latter.

[wintry sleet]

so redux is AS/DS only and magic redux is everything not AS/DS?
to be honest as someone playing purestone I knew about redux but had never heard the term "magic redux" until this thread lol

[quaint herald]

Correct. So shield bash? “Magic”. Astral spear? Physical.

[olive coral]

It's relatively new

[obtuse owl]

I'm late to this, so forgive the question I'm just not finding the answer for fast. Are warriors without KS benefitting from this?

[brave forge]

Against anything that redux doesn’t defend against, yes.

[obtuse owl]

Cool. 🙂

[pastel brook]

I would probably still make almost any square character KS

[digital mirage]

This is more of a bug than a feature…

[obtuse owl]

All for less random 1 shot deaths for all. And many of us are too far down the non KS path to ever consider going back.

[brave forge]

When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. When all you are is a Leafiara, everything needs copious amounts of exp.

[near patio]

I'd be pretty stoked if the one thing KS folks could get out of this is the ability to use any self-applied method to remove exhaustion/popped muscles. This concludes my monthly random ask (since October of 2020) for this issue resolution. 😄

[quaint herald]

Gonna go retroactively tag every ability in the game as physical/magic? Vaya con dios.

[slow thicket]

Finally, time for 510 to shine against Vvrael

[quaint herald]

https://tenor.com/view/i-love-paper-work-but-this-is-crazy-tired-lazy-bored-nonsense-gif-13251977

[blazing fable]

Gotcha, my bad on the misunderstanding.

[hardy yoke]

Magic redux was one of KS's exclusive things and now it's not - this is a relative devaluation of KS. How much that matters to you as a KS square is a personal and situational thing. It's petty but it absolutely feels bad seeing everyone in the game except your build get a buff.

[hard marsh]

Does the damage type that resilience affects overlap with what ARMOR blessing also triggers on? Just trying to figure out if this had a good impact on armor blessing or none.

[eager light]

Will there be a HESS item that boosts this resilience 1% up to 40% for 100k bs?

[vestal obsidian]

https://tenor.com/view/choose-choice-woke-up-chose-gif-24134590

[stoic meadow]

At this point we need HESS salve, applied for 15 minutes to make you receive no damage or crits. 5K BS per rub.

https://tenor.com/view/greased-up-deaf-guy-no-gif-5489784

[royal snow]

50% off for Black Friday

[fringe fractal]

The added PITA of being KS kinda balanced out with by the increase of redux and adding magic redux (though far to often things wouldn't work versus the magic redux/absorb magic). Even then, I found myself often on the fence of bothering with how on the edge, keyboard action combat I had to do with KS. While more engaging it is also more fatiguing to do.

Resilience is telling to drop KS if I start playing the warrior again (once I have more patience to deal with post capped hunting crowds/script etc). Why bother? Give up KS and just go magical enough to keep your redux under the ceiling and get the added bonus of Resilience. No fuss, no muss. KS feels dead to me now and not worth the work for the what ever pay off it offered for the way we trained and what we give up to be KS.

[modest hill]

I mean, again, spell using has been mechanically better than KS since, well forever. The problem is it takes a lot of exp. Nothing has changed in that regard.

[fringe fractal]

I mean, again... now there is something I can lean on without going through all the hassle of KS. Your missing that point. I'd already been on the fence more recently due to the hassles of being KS combined with dealing with script speed hunters and crowding post cap.

[stoic meadow]

Seems like its more
old way: 75 warrior spells > KS
new way: ~30 warriors spells + resilience > KS?

[modest hill]

You're not going to get "magical enough" until like 2-3x cap. I guess if you're saying that once you hit that, fix out of it, sure.

So now the bar is 2-3x cap instead of 4x cap. But that was always the long term play if you were mechanically inclined.

[fringe fractal]

Oh, I'm sure I can make it work well enough at currently experience. At least enough that I can not have to deal with KS and still get some of this Resilience goodness.

[modest hill]

So....fixskill. Complaint resolved.

[stoic meadow]

Doesn't KS also get the cool spell block/absorb that can give tons of enhancives? That is still KS unique. magical redux doesnt even come into play if you block every spell?!?

[fair pine]

It's on a cooldown. But, as Ufian pointed out, this really just moves the posts in a little closer IF spell sword was your end game build. (for a current KS user)

I'll probably keep KS because im lazy and dont want to deal with spells.

[stoic meadow]

warriors shouldnt know spells anyways....

[hot thunder]

KS has benefits that nothing else in the game really provides to a martial class. Comparing it to Resilience doesn't make much sense to me.

[fair pine]

It sounds like im missing the differences (outside of absorb)

[hot thunder]

WAY higher levels of reduction than anyone else can get

ability to use gear that spellcasters can't even touch

(if you want)

[fair pine]

I dont know about that last one, if you're referring to kroderine. Don't need to be KS to use, just not be a combat caster. And be ok with having a +25 enchant armament for ev er.

[hot thunder]

Sure... but at that point.

It's really a personal preference

not a better/worse scenario in every given situation

[untold leaf]

20% resilience isn't the same as 20% magic redux right? resiliance only reduces the crit and redux reduces both the crit and HP damage?

[fair pine]

well, yeah it's all just a personal preference in the end. It seems to me that the concerns raised are along the lines of "every other player class gets a slight buff except KS melee" sprinkled with "if you're not max, you're min".

[untold leaf]

resilience is to help solve a problem that KS melee didn't have in the first place so... people seem to be up in arms about nothing

[vestal obsidian]

Correct. Resilience is not magic redux and is an error that it showed that way on launch.

[stoic meadow]

https://tenor.com/view/i-am-so-confused-i-dont-get-it-im-confused-help-me-i-dont-understand-gif-3969922687971028232 (Someone create an MS paint flow chart to help us understand Resilience vs. KS)

[fair pine]

all it does is just provide some crit padding right?

[quaint herald]

This is a pretty funny ordering issue too. LIke if before KS was a thing gms did resilience, then made ks and it was "just" resilience on steroids (40% redux is way better than twice as good as 20% resil) i don't think anyone would feel upset.

[modest hill]

As Tikba mentioned earlier, the what-about-me in this thread is...interesting.

[untold leaf]

I have a rogue and I still plan on going KS as soon as I start hunting in spell sever areas. That still seems like a no-brainer for me.

[slow thicket]

If only it were limited to this thread 😢

[hot thunder]

it's intended to just be a buffer to mitigate some "bad luck" from open rolls. It really doesn't hold a candle to KS in terms of reducing overall damage in the scheme of things. Would learning spells balance out to prevent the damage in the first place? Maybe? That's very situational, and hard to really evaluate in such a short period of time.

[hardy yoke]

Sure, that's obviously how I feel since I said as much. I'm happy for the people who benefit from it. It sucks to see everyone else get a buff and you get nothing. It is what it is. I'm not saying they shouldn't have done Resilience, it was a good call to solve for issues the wyrm fight brought to light (which had existed outside of the wyrm for a while).

[stoic meadow]

Resilience only in ascension areas! what was the word for that a again? Term that shall not be named?

[hot thunder]

you could also look at it like KS got its buff FIRST

[fair pine]

Yes but what have you done for me today?

[hot thunder]

I did not bolt you and toss you in lava to test Resilience.

hehe

[modest hill]

We don't appreciate that kind of logical thinking around these parts.

[hardy yoke]

Looking forward to KS being expanded upon with exciting Archetypes, and not just being 2021 dead tech that never sees evolution again!

[fair pine]

The day is still young! (seriously though please dont do this)

[hot thunder]

that sounds like a fun idea to explore. I am fairly certain there is a discussion on archetypes somewhere. I saw something in the Gemstones channel but I think it may have moved.

[slow thicket]

I don't actually know how much resilience will even help in the wyrm fight. AS/DS is the issue in my experience, not maneuvers

[stoic meadow]

They should have KS archetype that has the spell bounce off you back at caster or other critters

[quaint herald]

resilience change for ks: when you see a non-ks character get stunned or killed via "magic" you automatically mock them

[hardy yoke]

If I wasn't stapled to KS for using my weapons (martial mastery) I would not be KS anymore. I have the exp for spells and having spells + resilience is the way to go once you can afford it. Ah well feat absorbs out of the thread

[fair pine]

you could just untrain those MM requirements? nm didnt know you were a Monk.

[slow thicket]

Monks don't have 425 to counterbalance like the other squares

[hardy yoke]

I lied. I'm still here. Yeah. Unless you want to do the cookie cutter UCS build, you need martial mastery as a monk. Because for some reason we have no AS boosters. They designed a square that's pigeonholed into one combat style lol.

[untold leaf]

from what I heard from most Rogues, going full spells was already better than KS even before resilience

[hot thunder]

VAULTKICK is a combat style (maybe...)?

(might be joking)

[junior forge]

This just in, being 4x capped is stronger than 1.5x capped

[abstract pilot]

The fact that it’s worth talking about (being ks or not) and that it has nuanced applications and creates a choice, is at least indicative to me that it was a good design choice.

[hot thunder]

train in Cheapshots on your monk to unlock your true Perfect Self 😄

or not... I actually have no idea if that is good

[junior forge]

I don't think this changes anything about that design, it was to give an option, which is still 100% as strong as it was before to people.

[abstract pilot]

Giving people a stronger alternative, that makes a choice more difficult, then,

[hot thunder]

I agree that one or the other isn't a no-brainer anymore, depending on your preference in hunting style/area/etc.

[junior forge]

It's not though, like spells on a warrior is a ginormous investment. Obviously you should be stronger after that if you chose to do it, but KS is still incredibly powerful just like it has been since it released. There is slightly better cases now for in-between builds which is awesome because more options is a good thing

[stoic meadow]

KS warrior with all krod gear, set it and forget.... you are now all set forever. Keep it simple stupid.

[abstract pilot]

Right, I think we’re saying the same thing.

The game isn’t just made of post-cap characters. While spells is a huge investment to deal with in spell sever areas, a lot of the precap world is not spell sever.

[fair pine]

You just can't hunt undead, get your gear serviced, etc.

[near patio]

  Magical Damage Reduction: 42.58%```
I feel like I don't need much else to justify KS for myself.

[bitter raven]

Worth mentioning that KS also allows very early access to pushing ASC more by comparison to other routes. Not directly combat related, but, another benefit to consider. Whene we're comparing progression as total xp.

[noble viper]

Can't hunt undead. Do you actually play the game or do you just come on discord? I am baffled so much by this comment and so so interested to hear about what mechanics in KS prohibit the hunting of undead

[fair pine]

You can't overcome the 25% damage resistance, since you can't bless or 330 the armament. Yes there was a bit of hyperbole there, but have you actually tried regularly hunting undead without a bless/sanctification? And, again, this isn't about KS - it's specifically about Kroderine.

[noble viper]

Yeah I don't normally get my stuff. Blessed anymore man. I don't know a lot of people that do. I have yet to see that 25% damage resistance make undead immortal.

[slow thicket]

Speaking of baffling comments 😆

[fair pine]

CAN you hunt Moonsedge with an unblessable 5x weapon? Yes technically you can.

[slow thicket]

I agree with your overall sentiment, but I don't agree with the assertion that a meaningful number of people avoid bless/sanct if they intend on hunting undead with any regularity.

[noble viper]

Well, it's not as easy for everyone to just run the macro in their own hunting group and have their own cleric bless the rest of their characters

[slow thicket]

Always with the side comments on how I MA 🙄 . I don't need to bless my squad though, because 330 is a thing that nearly every player I know invests in eventually.

[noble viper]

Well yeah stop telling it like you know how everyone else is. There are plenty of us who don't have time to go find a cleric to do a bless

[fair pine]

You just need to find a cleric 5 times.

[hot thunder]

do people really only use one weapon and that's it? if you have a kroderine weapon, you can also have one that isn't kroderine to hunt undead with.

[fair pine]

Is that a stealth announcment for warriors and paladins being able to bond to multiple weapons?

[hot thunder]

(hides three daggers, 2 handaxes, a falchion, and a short sword)

nothing to see here

uhhh, no

I am not announcing anything, was just a question. Also... not everyone is a warrior. :/

can you actually paladin bond to kroderine?

seems... odd

[fair pine]

For KS specifically: Monks mostly UCS, I dont know how many KS rogues there are out there; everyone else is a warrior.

[slow thicket]

I expect that most people utilizing kroderine weapons aren't making it their primary weapon tbh. For the above reasons. They can't be project weapons. More likely as a situational tool vs particular foes. Maybe some that went for the "cheap" claidhmore option

[fair pine]

probably not

[torn pond]

You'd be surprised how many daggers people carry. But yeah, people definitely carry more than one weapon regularly.

[modest hill]

I have exactly one weapon for every one of my characters. It takes so much time/money to improve a weapon meaningfully, I'm always astounded by people having more than one.

I suppose you could argue that my warriors shield is effectively another weapon, but aside from that. And monks gotta have gloves and boots. So I guess, more accurately one weapon set per character.

[hardy yoke]

There is absolutely no reason to own more than one runestaff, itemization for pures is very meh. Which is a plus or a minus depending on the player for sure

[pastel brook]

there was a very small potential reason before flare gloves but now there is really no reason ever

[slow thicket]

Runestaves also aren’t affected by undead damage resistance, which is how that convo started.

[wintry sleet]

I keep a 2nd staff on my casters for when I get disarmed and need to re-arm before finding the lost one. It's only 0.5 pounds in a warrior harness.

oh and also if you end up somewhere where your flares can get you killed

[modest hill]

I just sort of continue to kill whatevers in the room , then search.

[stoic meadow]

This is where 1x dodge on casters really shines, just openly searching in room with no cares...

[brave forge]

Most of my characters who have multiple weapons only have them for arena purposes and/or because I'm hedging my bets for Ascension archetypes.

Edit: I should probably just sell off the arena-only ones, to be honest. This isn't the old days of churning through 25,000 arena entries in endless cycles of flipping books, so I don't need the 1% improved efficiency of a GEF runestaff over a lightning runestaff, etc.

[keen raft]

it takes an enormous amount of time, money and energy to completely finish even a single weapon. I'm more likely to die of old age before finishing a second one.

[slow thicket]

You don’t have to “finish” weapons for them to be awesome though

[near patio]

Unless you're dual wielding there's not really any reason to use more than one weapon unless it's just preference/style. Some folks like the change it up. Myharl has his main weapon that he uses for everything, the daggers he carries are for skinning, but also serve a dual purpose as scrimshaw, shank, and eviscerating knives. That's even more true now with the flare gloves. Concerning warriors, mechanics literally push you away from using more than one weapon (specialization, bonding, etc.).

[keen raft]

there's that guy with the xazkrasdf;lkajsdf;lkj skinning knife!

[near patio]

I'm of the mindset that transcend destiny should provide immunity to death metal. It's a silly mechanic, and is pretty dumb to get insta-dropped when someone wielding it gets sympathized. It's like with the wyrm hunts, if someone is weilding it, I'm not engaging.

[hard marsh]

Checkin' in to represent KS rogues! What what!! And warrior - but not with a kroderine main weapon on the warrior. I still do hunt undead even with kroderine armor

[hot thunder]

I think the context of the conversation has been lost at this point. Upgrading a 2nd weapon wasn't part of the original conversation... it was upgrading 1 weapon for Undead hunting in addition to using kroderine for other things as a KS martial character.

[keen raft]

besides, whenever i get a nice fun new weapon, i'd rather create a new alt that uses it instead of storing it in a locker as a backup secondary weapon

[hot thunder]

I don't think any KS characters are going to be using a runestaff... but I would challenge someone to prove me wrong

[keen raft]

so about that quarterstaff monk subclass...

[hot thunder]

I don't know anything about that stuff.

[near patio]

Not really lost context. I guess I'm saying that it doesn't make sense to do so; especially for warriors, unless it's just a personal preference/style, in which case, have a blast and get at all the antimagic! I don't think it's something you're going to find as commonplace, though?

[hot thunder]

I guess? The original conversation was that someone had a kroderine weapon and it wasn't as useful vs undead. Since services can't be applied to kroderine, it's still perfectly reasonable to apply them to another weapon that you can use against undead.

(more effectively)

[near patio]

Heh, I feel like we're saying the same thing from two different angles.

[hot thunder]

probably!

Also... you are now challenged to defeat the wyrm only using a runestaff

and robes

[vestal obsidian]

The sword strikes true, but the triton protector shrugs off some of the damage!
I hunt undead every day and can't be bothered to bless my weapons because the undead deserve a chance, and yes I have a cleric sitting beside me.

[keen raft]

so you like to play with your food!

[near patio]

Heheh! No joke, finding a good set of robes to try out is actually on my list. I'm curous how 3x dodge and KS work on the massive flurry of attacks from the wyrm. Runestaff... I can hurl it when it's flying!

[simple sable]

this was my thought as well. Just switch to a different weapon. Maybe invest in getting a blessable weapon with dispel flares

[hot thunder]

Dispel flares block bless iirc

or maybe it's the paladin thing they block, I forget

[slow thicket]

Nothing blocks bless except kroderine

Okay probably not nothing, but no flares do

[hot thunder]

oh maybe I didn't have enough spell ranks to bless magic metals or something when I tried.

too busy to train in spells!

[fringe fractal]

I don't carry two polearms because encumbrance being an elf. Change/tweak the encumbrance system and I might revisist carrying two weapons. Add to that, If I were to carry two weapons at the same time, they'd both be high end which honestly I can't see throwing more money at, since i'm kinda soured on the whole pricing for most gear in real cash currently.

[simple sable]

I've got a kroderin cestus I use when fighting something with 712, otherwise I use the high end stuff. its an off the shelf weapon. I dont see the issue of having more than one weapon. If one more lance would weigh you down so much that it effects your RT, you need to unload the other stuff

[fringe fractal]

lol. ok. I travel light Kiel. Thanks for telling me how I experienced the game over the past three decades though as an elf. I doubt many travel as light as I do. All containers open btw and most as light as they can be.```>inventory full
You are currently wearing:
a hazy tan silk head-wrap reinforced with braided thrak hide (registered) (marked)
a rune-etched alexandrite medallion (registered) (marked) (tucked)
a triangular veil iron amulet (marked) (tucked)
a tan leather hooded cloak (registered) (marked)
a gold-inked ebon vellum envelope (marked)
a gilded locus (registered) (marked) (hidden)
a tin-bound ceramic badge (registered) (marked) (tucked)
a tanned leather knapsack (registered) (marked)
a sturdy leather weapons harness (registered) (marked)
a sleek elven framea with a radiant glow (registered) (marked)
a set of nicked and battered black enameled mithril field plate (registered) (marked)
some cuffed thick leather gauntlets (registered) (marked)
a slender steel throwing knife (registered) (marked)
an iron and mithril band (registered) (marked) (tucked)
a tooled wide leather belt (registered) (marked)
an oaken wand
a cire leather herb kit scuffed at the corners (registered) (marked)
a tall jar of pallid grey salve (marked)
a rugged troll hide loot sack (registered) (marked)
a plain gold ring
a crystal amulet
a crystal amulet
a pure potion
a fuchsia-hued nacreous raven feather (marked)
a gilded bronze barrel key (marked)
a gilded bronze barrel key (marked)
a shimmering green orb (marked)
some dark heavy leather breeches (registered) (marked)
some ruby and black diamond dice (registered) (marked)
some rugged dark leather boots (registered) (marked)

(Items: 30)

[simple sable]

so you're saying adding an extra polearm encumberes you? And it wasnt an attack Celtar, it was a suggestion

[fringe fractal]

Good thing I opened up a red to drink while reading and replying to this. Ok, well that's how it came off. As if I didn't have a clue after all these years. Anyhow appoligizes for assuming it was. There is a lot of passive aggresive bs on our Discord and I'm kinda over people.

[simple sable]

I apologize if it came across as an attack.

[slow thicket]

Meanwhile I carry around ~24 pounds of skins as a gnome basically all the time for easy skinning bounties 😛

[simple sable]

You are carrying 373 items.```

[simple sable]

I use my simu coins from premium every month on weight reduction potions

[fringe fractal]

Me too! All my characters use the damn things.

[simple sable]

I wish they made one that lasted an entire year.

[grand jay]

I don't get blesses or have any cleric scant profession (whatever you call it) ranks applied to any weapon for any of my characters. I can hit undead now when I used to not be able to, so far I'm doing way more damage to them then I used to.

[hard marsh]

All your characters? So even the elf warrior?

[fringe fractal]

I don't have any giantmen or half krolvin, currently.

[slow thicket]

Sure. I didn’t say nobody, I was just claiming that I believe it to be a minority decision among weapon users. It was a great update to allow that choice to be viable. I still think that most prefer to avoid the penalty with the available options, especially because blesses last longer now AND holy fire exists. At any rate, the only way to actually know would be to get some actual statistics from staff on prevalence of players willing to eat that 25%.

[hard marsh]

I'm just so confused why you would become encumbered by another weapon on your warrior with using an encumbrance potion and carrying only 30 items.

[fringe fractal]

https://gswiki.play.net/Encumbrance Many races get the short end of the stick on encumbrance.

[fair pine]

If you're using an encumbrance potion, which gives you an addl 100lbs, you're fully trained for your armor (and presumably have it lightened), and you're carrying near nothing, then no an addl 8lb weapon will not put you into encumbrance issues.

[slow thicket]

I play almost exclusively gnomes and could carry extra lances on all of them with no problem. Only use encumbrance potions on my main. Amusing that you call out passive aggressive behavior, then follow up by passive-aggressively pasting a link to the wiki as if we don’t know how encumbrance works. Lulz

[hard marsh]

I've played all the races (except gnomes cause...c'mon) and other than halfling I didn't really feel encumbrance was unmanageable. And I only very recently started using those potions on my human rogue. It just sounds weird is all, Celtar. not saying you're wrong.

[fringe fractal]

Should change Celtar into a Giantman ranger. 😁 Seriously you can't carry hardly anythig Oamir before encumbrance starts in. Also like spirit lower spirit, you don't want any encumbrance penalties due to how SmR works. Meaning you can't carry much loot.

[simple sable]

I'm constantly carrying too much stuff. I wish I could figure out how to unload all the stuff I dont actually require

but about resilience, I'm a fan! I think it helped me with not dying to the Wyrm that Jaired and I killed today

[fringe fractal]

My half elf wizard carries 83 items and I'm always trying to lower that. He carries about a dozen wands. Plus gold coins, statues etc. The dwarf cleric runs at 46 items and the dark elf sorcerer closer to the wizard.

[simple sable]

I'm consistantly over 10 small statues

[fringe fractal]

i try to carry no more than 2 or 3 of those with the characters that can use them. Just make trips to the Mist Harbour to get more once those 2 or 3 are gone.

[noble viper]

These stupid experience orbs weight so much

[hardy yoke]

Suffering from success

[simple sable]

 Avanti       | inv | backpack                |   5 | magic |     |     | Y |   |   | shimmering blue orb
 Avanti       | inv | cloak                   |   7 | magic |     |     | Y |   |   | shimmering blue orb
 Avanti       | inv | sack                    |   1 | magic |     |     | Y |   |   | shimmering blue orb
 Avanti       | cy  | bin                     |   6 | magic | ```

[hardy yoke]

An eyeless black valravn vaporizes into a swirl of cold, black mist that streaks toward you in a blur of shadowy, intangible feathers!  The vaporous cloud penetrates your magical defenses and washes over you in a chaotic onslaught!
A nebulous steel grey latticework springs up from the surface of your kelyn-banded armor and shields you from some of the damage!
Your wiregrass anklet pulses briefly, deflecting some of the freezing damage!  The anklet glints one last time, then grows dim.
   ... 1 point of damage!
   Brrrr!  That was a good hit to the right leg!  Knocked you silly.
   ... 9 points of damage!
   Chest swells, breaking ribs!
   You are stunned for 1 round!
   ... 9 points of damage!
   Back strains under sudden decompression!
   ... 9 points of damage!
   Decompression causes muscles in arm to crack!
A nebulous steel grey latticework springs up from the surface of your kelyn-banded armor and shields you from some of the damage!
   ... 1 point of damage!
   Blast creates interesting designs on torso, but little damage.
   ... 1 point of damage!
   Unpleasant wound to right arm!
   ... 1 point of damage!
   Blast creates interesting designs on torso, but little damage.
An eyeless black valravn dwindles back into its avian form.```So resilient right now. That's as a cleric in doubles

[hard marsh]

What is that grey latticework springing into action?

[hardy yoke]

Mana armor

[noble viper]

Man thats a cool looking attack

[hardy yoke]

Tbh I think the deathnado (colloquial name for it) was nerfed at some point since HiWi opened, and now post-resilience it probably needs to get some teeth back

[fringe fractal]

Huh, seriously looks on par if not better than results Celtar sees. with his KS redux, training and awesome plate. Yep. Soo resilient indeed.

[pastel brook]

Super excited for the transition of this thread from “people post clips of themselves dying to complain” to “people post clips of clerics not dying to complain”

[abstract pilot]

I too am excited to transition to #nerfclerics 😉 they’re too OP now.

[hardy yoke]

I will let you all know if Nidal ever dies again

[hard marsh]

I'm much more excited for the inevitable #nerfRangers

[fringe fractal]

Before Resilience came out, my cleric hardly ever died. So I look forward to those occasional deaths becoming almost never deaths.

[hardy yoke]

319 and Resilience, name a more iconic duo

[fringe fractal]

319 definitely rocks, resilience puts awesome frosting on the cake. heh

[junior forge]

I mean I can't remember a time "deathnado" actually killed my sorcerer post it's original nerf, I don't think resilience really changed much there, in fact those crits look to be so low already that it's unlikely resilience even kicked in for most of them

the resists are doing much more work there, and the padding

[hardy yoke]

my armor is p. dece yeah

[slow thicket]

Yeah, biggest dangers for me are still anomalies > angryghost ewave thing > disciple spells

The shadows bubble and seethe as a roiling crimson angargeist rematerializes, swirling together into a vortex of vile energies!
Crackling torrents of spectral energy erupt from the angargeist as it reforms, warping the air as they ripple outward!

SMR SvD: +49 + Bonus: +2 + o100 roll: +93 == +144
The disruptive wave pulses through you, rending flesh and sending shocks of agony racing down your spine!
... 35 points of damage!
Your head explodes like an overripe melon.
One got my paladin yeterday, resilience is a farce! /s

[wintry sleet]

eww 144 endroll as a death crit even with resilience seems OP

[hardy yoke]

Idk they're level 114 and one of the scariest things in the game. I am ok with their unique ability being a fairly bad time

[stoic meadow]

They're not called Angry Ghosts for nothing....

[abstract pilot]

Already happened.

[stoic meadow]

It's the GS Double Jeopdary law.... you can't be nerfed twice in the same decade

2030+ its no holds barred

[wintry sleet]

that should be represented in their SMR power - i.e. how hard it is to defend against - not in the low endroll being fatal imo
but I hear ya

I don't know his training but I see a likely post-cap paladin with less than 50% chance to avoid that maneuver - which means it's dangerous!

[fringe fractal]

Bah! I bet you were hunting with your armor in your pack! End roll 144 death rolls Bah humbug.

More seriously deaths on SmR's under 150 always are unacceptable in my book.

[junior forge]

anomolies also can't hit limbs so much higher chance of death crits, but they are one of the few actually dangerous abilities left in HW imo

the angrygeist is just "nerf 435" because that's what it's using there, which yeah current 435 after being able to be used on prone stuff is kinda OP for it's reduced mana cost

[digital mirage]

Hmm, I think it can only be used on prone creatures, not players

[junior forge]

oh I know, I'm saying 435 having uncapped crits and it's current endroll scaling is too strong for it's cost, but that's generally my opinion, one of the limitations it had, which is you couldn't repeat use due to proning creatures was removed

[slow thicket]

Blanket statements like "SMR under 150" aren't really applicable. SMR is not a category of attack. It is a resolution system. The abilities behind that are not all equal.

That would be like saying "AS attacks under 150 endroll should never be fatal," meanwhile forgetting lances and claidmores exist

[junior forge]

yeah, it's similar to that many SMR manuevers have phantom weighing to the hidden end result besides the actual endroll, like shield modifiers for everything done with a shield

or size modfiers for things that take that into account, or stat modifiers, or any of the other 10+ other ways that vary on many many combat manuevers besides just the endroll

[slow thicket]

It's a common thing players do, to be clear. I'm sure I've done it myself. But I'm working to avoid using "SMR" as a category and instead be particular about the specific spell/maneuver

[junior forge]

yeah that's why I was talking specifically about 435, because it has uncapped crits, it basically has the 1030 problem, any reasonable 40+ endroll is going to be lethal if it hits a lethal area.

this goes for player casted versions too, it's very powerful in it's current state, and it was buffed recently too

[digital mirage]

Interesting - it's actually not using 435...

[quaint herald]

i bet there's like 50 things that are like "435, kinda mostly but different"
feels like we had a run of DRs that every one was a new item that was like "every 10 minutes you can do a thing that's kinda like 435 but legally distinct"

[stoic meadow]

435 +3 crit ranks spell?

[slow thicket]

Majorer Elemental Wave, Majorest Elemental Wave

[stoic meadow]

Maximum Elemental Wave!

[slow thicket]

Wait, is there a secret savant Major Mental Wave? It makes sense that angryghosts' version isn't actually ewave, because it's disruption damage.

[stoic meadow]

What about if Major Ewave included the loreflare DoTs with similar scaling elemental lore splits? Would that be too overpowered OR make whales too mad?

[digital mirage]

That would be a lot of AoE damage

[stoic meadow]

Like if you use 435 and have fire affinity and 173 fire lore ranks then ANY critter hit will immediately get the fire Dots, it might make 435 more worth it

Also, when are Wizards getting summon elemental pet?

[slow thicket]

935/940 are conveniently vacant..

[stoic meadow]

Estild hinted at like a 940 elemental cannon spell similar to hand pylons years ago that SCALES with elemental lore ranks.... 🤤

[spare tapir]

Think of the hamsters please

[brave forge]

This morning's conversation gave me an excellent bandaid idea.

Introduce 1230, Major Force Projection, as a clone of Major Elemental Wave but with different damage types. Then introduce EVOKE 110, Major Unbalance, also as a clone of Major Elemental Wave but with different damage types, unlocked at 30 or 35 Minor Spiritual ranks.

AoEs for all!

[quaint herald]

i mean, the teased spell list has mana storm at 1430

[hot thunder]

while I think Force Projection might be a cool name, we don't want any issues with a certain mouse.

hehe

then again... it really is just 2 words.

[brave forge]

Too late!
https://gswiki.play.net/Force_Projection_(1207)

[hot thunder]

oh darn

[slow thicket]

Strike two for "things that shouldn't be but already are" today, Mars 😆

[brave forge]

I can't believe I didn't make that connection until now, actually. It's literally mental magic where you push something around telekinetically...

[hot thunder]

well the mouse probably doesn't care about 30 year old content anyway

heh

look... it's been a year.

Does Telekinesis still let you throw cats and rats at people?

[slow thicket]

Wow, I somehow have actually not seen this list in full yet before now

[brave forge]

Yes.

[hot thunder]

haha

[pastel brook]

I’m pretty sure avaluka specifically made it so you can’t TK puppies, not sure about other pets

[hot thunder]

I wonder how Resilient someone would be to a cat being thrown at them (back on topic!)

[quaint herald]

Summoning my golem just to yeet him into the wyrm

[junior forge]

isn't that an as/ds resolution so they would not be resilient at all

[abstract pilot]

I think this is a totally fair point, but until staff begins to use this nomenclature, or is more transparent in regards to item sales in describing SMR, I don't think there's anything that can be done except broadly categorize it. It's all behind a curtain.

[quaint herald]

https://tenor.com/view/the-iron-giant-animated-cartoon-save-the-world-feels-gif-3522783

[abstract pilot]

If I'm wrong Kaetel, and there is some transparent sub-nomenclature, let me know.

[pastel brook]

I don't understand the connection you're drawing between item sales and SMR here. the problem with just saying "SMR" is kind of displayed in this thread. we have "spells," "maneuvers," "SMR spells," "maneuver-like spells", "SMR attacks" as somehow distinct from maneuvers, etc., etc., etc. Kaetel's comparison to lances vs daggers is on point here. SMR is a type of roll, not an ability. (and, importantly in a way that is constantly and repeatedly missed in this thread, resilience is not restricted to SMR and it is likely that lots of the times resilience will come into play will have nothing to do with SMR)

[abstract pilot]

The connection is items are sold. They come with SMR abilities. The factors that go into determining SMR strength are not elucidated. The factors that go into SMR resolutions are not often disclosed.

[pastel brook]

yes, I agree that items that have abilities which use SMR should explain the factors that go into their SMR offense. that doesn't seem relevant to the question of whether "SMR" writ large is a useful category for understanding all of the things that use SMR.

[abstract pilot]

Ok.

[brave forge]

Wait, what does resilience affect other than SMR and CS? Are there SSR damaging moves?

[pastel brook]

flares, to pick one

[abstract pilot]

Poisons?

[brave forge]

Ah, yeah. I guess some creatures do have flares. Maybe they can hand out more of those now.

[pastel brook]

Also there are SSR damaging abilities!

[quaint herald]

any random old environmental thing (sos climb), things like implode (a room over), that one time a year you get sandstormed by a reim empress, dispel flux from hoy's abandoned spectral mobs, etc.

theoretically anyways. It's hard to of course to verify it's actually working for all those things.

[digital mirage]

Pretty much everything that does critical damage except AS/DS/UCS. I'm sure there are some exceptions though

[junior forge]

yeah, resilience should affect any smr rolls, cs/td, ssr, flares, smv1 (there's still some stuff out there), several random one-off abilities like fall off the mountain crits.

There's a lot of stuff in the game at this point.

[stoic meadow]

Siren lizard tail whip??

[digital mirage]

Could be!

[simple sable]

I’ve been advocating for a mass version of 1207 for years! I like this idea! Ship it!

[hardy yoke]

Mass 1207 is 410!

[supple thicket]

New meta
Bard with twc blink weapons
435 in blink weapons

[vestal obsidian]

You guys definitely forgot to give my cleric the resilience.

[SMR result: 104 (Open d100: 34)]
... the wave heads right for you!
   ... 30 points of damage!
   You hear several snaps as your neck is broken in several places.

[hardy yoke]

lol that doesn’t seem like it should be able to happen anymore

[hard marsh]

I thought the resilience just made it extremely unlikely? I didn't think you'd be immune to really lame death crits.

[vestal obsidian]

5    15    Neck broken. The [target] twitches several times before dying.    F    R3
6    20    You hear several snaps as the [target]'s neck is broken in several places.    F    R3
7    25    Vertebrae in [target]'s neck disintegrate from impact! Neck sinks into shoulders.    F    R3
8    30    Shot to neck sends [target] into shock which leads very quickly to death.    F    R3

Resilience wouldn't have and didn't save me, true. The problem here is yeah not fixable by resilience.

[pastel brook]

rank 6 lmao. I was going to say they should make a secret supercharged atoll wave that is indistinguishable from the regular wave and never change it but as I wrote that I vaguely remember naijin saying actually that is already how the atoll wave works

[vestal obsidian]

Guess Sanctum is gonna get a little busier as I move some guys over there.

[hardy yoke]

Monstrosity reactive acid will get you there

[digital mirage]

Where is this?

Is that the Atoll wave?

[fringe fractal]

I understand that. My point is that it feels like SmR attack results arent limited as far as critical end results go. Anyhow I'm actually mentally just done with this conversation. I made my opinion known, anything else truly is typical waste of ones time Discord time stealing.

[pastel brook]

That is definitely the atoll wave

[slow thicket]

But like, some of them literally are. That's the whole point. For example, 309 is an attack that uses SMR resolution, and has a crit cap

[digital mirage]

Hmm

[vestal obsidian]

Monstrosity acid is avoidable using the right attacks!

[quaint herald]

So is the wave. When it messages it’s rolling in you can run to the grottos (or the beach or inside). I think it’s also especially mean for small races or has some kinda training thing that helps maybe but that’s just a guess. It seemed to mess up my pure gnome more than any other character there (who would have been either or both bigger and more square trainin)

[pastel brook]

Add a haunted lifeguard to the atoll that does nothing to save you but does put up a high surf advisory sign when the waves are getting rough

[quaint herald]

I think that was actually one of the plots for an episode of Baywatch: Nights

[fair pine]

Not be confused with Baywatch: After Dark.

[urban socket]

Why was I not just tagged in this request?

[vital coyote]

ah yes the final fantasy 2 archetype

[vital coyote]

whales gonna whale

[vital coyote]

read this as "I carry 24 pounds of gnome skins"

[slow thicket]

That may also be true tbh. Google says:

The average adult's skin weighs between 6 and 9 pounds
6 gnomes * ~4lbs or so? 😆

[hardy yoke]

Did not expect to learn that today

[slow thicket]

To be fair, I had to curate it to make the math work. The rest of the google AI result is:

The average adult's skin weighs between 6 and 9 pounds, which is about 12–16% of their total body weight.
..and idk any adults that weigh ~56-75lbs. So dubious at best

[simple sable]

You remove a length of soft sylvan skin from in your leather cloak.

J>weight skin
You carefully examine the soft sylvan skin and determine that the weight is less than 2 pounds.
Roundtime: 5 sec.```

That wood elf wasnt granted resilience. splat

[hardy yoke]

Nidal | fwi | chest | 1 | unknown | | | Y | | | dwarven scalpYakushi gave me this one day I think it was a threat

[quaint herald]

oh i should add that onto my Ni-doll for extra realism.
gold-streaked bathing dwarf statuette

[simple sable]

If you ever want to part with it let me know. I’m putting together these kind of items for the rp of my assassinh

[near patio]

This should absolutely be a thing. The mechanic already exists for bolt and ball spells with the Deflect Magic and Deflect Elements shield skills. I always get a kick out of knocking a spell back into the caster's face. It would absolutely make sense for this to become an archetype for Kroderine Soul as a natural defense chance that resolves with the E/B/P system.

Muted veins of metallic grey ripple along [Character]'s arm for an instant as [she/he] grasps [spell effect] to hurl it towards [engaged target]```

[olive coral]

This is from pre resilience but #mechanics message

Atoll waves seem to automatically hit some crit rank threshold. Or maybe it's like a flare and the SMR check is just yes/no

If that's the case it seems like it would be better to just hide the calculation and not give us something to be outraged by

[hard marsh]

Yeah I don't think it auto hits some crit threshold...my rogue/warrior get hit with this all the time and it never has hurt much.

[olive coral]

A triton warden fires a silver-streaked arrow at you!
  AS: +431 vs DS: +447 with AvD: +31 + d100 roll: +99 = +114
   ... and hits for 8 points of damage!
   Minor strike to the neck.
Soot brown specks of leaf mold trail in the wake of your movements, distorted by a murky haze.
   ... 30 points of damage!
   Electric blast goes right to the heart!  You'll miss that steady beat.```

Whar resilience?

Whar flare message?

Whar 25% lightning resist, and anklet message?

Does resilience work the same way as 620, also? From the description it kinda sounds like it does. If so, that would be a net reduction of 45% Damage Severity Weighting. Meaning my death there would have had to be from a 46 out of 50 DSW points or higher.

And that's fine, if it was a rank 9 crit that got reduced to rank 5, I don't expect to be unkillable by flares. But it'd be nice to see the anklet messaging to let me know it's not glitched at least 🙂

[worthy swallow]

I think resilience applies prior to crit padding whereas resists (620 included) applies after crit padding has been subtracted

[olive coral]

I wasn't even considering my 11 CER armor TBH. So if it works like that and it's a 50 DSW crit, that cuts it to 40 from resilience then 6 to 11 for the padding, let's be generous and say 6 so it's at 34, then 25% reduction is 25.5 which is still a rank 5.

Anything below a 49 DSW crit works out to a rank 4, if it works like that, and that's assuming my padding randomization and the warden's critical randomization are worst case scenario for me

[hardy yoke]

Unironically nerf lightning flares

[olive coral]

I don't normally go to that depth of calculation on stuff and I doubt my understanding of the systems at play are correct, so a lot of that may not be accurate. My main point is that flares from creatures seem wonky!

I've noticed a number of flares that happen but don't show any messaging, from those wardens to ash guardians/phoenixes on f'eyrie to storm griffins.

The charitable assumption is that the 620 messaging gets eaten by whatever is eating the flare messaging and it's being reduced, but I also haven't had a death like that where I can recall the 620 message appearing!

[vital coyote]

[SMR result: 111 (Open d100: 12, Bonus: 4)]
The long thorny vine lashes out violently at you, dragging you to the ground!
   ... 15 points of damage!
   Head grappled, slight ringing in the ears.
   You are stunned for 5 rounds!
Roundtime: 3 sec.``` 111 endroll, rank 3?

[stoic meadow]

NerfstoneIV... "The Softening"

[hard marsh]

Coulda been death without resilience!

[eager light]

In response to resilience, the monster guild has petitioned Elstid for a new feature in all capped areas: Luukos-ex machina will instantly vaporize any player who has not died in 10 hours of game play. Fair is fair.

[olive coral]

  AS: +456 vs DS: +434 with AvD: +31 + d100 roll: +48 = +101
   ... and hits for 1 point of damage!
   Poked in the tummy.
  Hehehe.
   ... 30 points of damage!
   Pain penetrates your being as your left ankle shatters from the icy blast.
   You are knocked to the ground!
   You are stunned for 5 rounds!```
Another day, another rank 5 flare through resilience, 11CER and 25% resist with no flare/anklet message

[supple thicket]

But did you die?

[hardy yoke]

Hehehe.

It sure does seem like those shots are entirely ignoring resists or resilience, though. Hope it gets a look

[olive coral]

Through skilled use of my sorcerer's *checks notes* ability to wait and hope 712 kills the danger while I'm stunned, I survived

[stoic meadow]

The funny part is it directly hit your ankle where your ranger anklet should be.... sweet irony

[quaint herald]

for giggles i did just go test sniping on my ranger w/ flaring arrows in case it was some weird flaring arrow / sniping thing. i was able to trigger resist messaging so if it is in fact not working somehow it's some kind of inconsistent behavior where it sometimes doesn't work, it's the usual "it just didn't do anything so no message" (which is annoying, needs a "your resist just didn't help this time" message), or it's specifically a mob ranged flares thing.

[slow thicket]

I'm actually not clear on how resilience is intended to apply to things like flares, based on @urban socket 's explanation here #1291515030147174431 message since there isn't any raw damage being used to calculate the critical tier afaik, there's only the crit

[quaint herald]

you don't know there's no raw damage. "does a rank 1-7" could mean it's doing a normal distribution on 1-35 DSW or something

[pastel brook]

my understanding of flares (which is not necessarily complete) is that there is DSW, which is also thought of as "raw damage," it's just that that DSW is thrown away rather than becoming concussion - yeah what FFNG said. in fact we can see the distribution by looking at crit ranks produced by flares

[quaint herald]

which is always what i kinda assumed anyway otherwise armor/padding couldn't really help either if it was just doing a "do x rank" thing. And why when we were in the time period where we were told the range was like 1-5 instead of 1-7 but we were seeing 7s and stuff i was always asking people if they were already disabled when they got the things outside the 1-5 range cause i was theorizing there was phantom damage being added similar to status bonus for CS spells

[slow thicket]

DSW works approximately the same way for non-weapon swinging attacks that raw damage works when swinging a weapon, except that only the critical is dealt to the target. The critical divisor is always 5 points for DSW-based attacks.

[pastel brook]

what maniac wrote that but only put it on the resistance page, what a noob

[urban socket]

all this talk about shoes

[olive coral]

I mean...it could just be a thing where resilience doesn't apply since it was something that came from an AS/DS attack. Seems like a pretty big gap in the "stuff that kills you instantly" band-aid that resilience is supposed to be fixing, if so

Ithzir flares been rage inducing for decades tho

[slow thicket]

I'm not sure what evidence you have that resilience didn't apply though. It could've been a rank 7 crit initially

[olive coral]

If you read back I've been assuming that it was starting as a rank 9, I didn't even know flares were capped at 7.

Not having confirmed knowledge of the order of operations, if and how armor padding affects flares, etc means I don't necessarily have evidence. I've stated (in so many words)that everything may be working as intended and I'm just having terrible luck.

I'm just seeing a pattern and posting it

[urban socket]

with a system that's a bit black box-ish, it's the right stance to take

[pastel brook]

it is weird that the ranger trinket isn't showing on these

[slow thicket]

Yeah, sorry - reviewing what I wrote it came off incorrectly. What I was trying to point out is that we don't get enough information/feedback to properly assess ourselves. Sorry for the unintentionally accusatory tone. I wish that there was a message that indicated when resilience does make a difference, like there is (supposed to be, though curiously missing as others have already pointed out) for resistance.

[pastel brook]

we were told by mestys that the "your trinket did a thing" message appears when your trinket did a thing #rangers message which does make you wonder about these no-trinket ranged hits

[olive coral]

Yea from the way the service is described it doesn't seem to be something that should ever not reduce damage of its element. Absorbing completely, yes, but you should always see resist vs the appropriate damage

[wintry sleet]

You don't see it when the damage is too minor and your % reduction results in no actual reduction...but in this case it definitely should trigger since it's a high rank crit.

[digital mirage]

I’ll take a look

It does seem a bit strange

[olive coral]

ThxU m8

[vital coyote]

  AS: +34 vs DS: +57 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +90 = +105
   ... and hits for 2 points of damage!
   Love tap upside your head!
A white vysan's touch brings the chill of death!
   ... 30 points of damage!
   Ouch!  Slivers of ice in the strike easily penetrate to your spine.``` Already bugged it, but white vysans can also attack while webbed 😄

[digital mirage]

Thank you for bugging it

[atomic storm]

Since this was implemented I’ve certainly noticed a lot less “walk into a room and get SMR’d to death.”

[simple sable]

me too!

[hardy sparrow]

I find it pretty funny the only time I died to an atoll wave where it snapped my neck was the day Resilience was released }: D

[vital coyote]

Cloudy wisps swirl about you.
[SMR result: 295 (Open d100: 262, Bonus: 1)]
The wisps solidify into thick strands of webbing that tighten about your body!
You become ensnared in thick strands of webbing!
W>```anything more than 200 is just insulting

[summer fossil]

is this live? I don't see anything under health

[vestal obsidian]

There's nothing to be seen.
It was erroneously showing as magic resistance on release. Not suppose to do that as it's not magic resistance.

[summer fossil]

ah ok I just saw ondreian post it earlier

[digital mirage]

This is unrelated to resilience, but since it has been cited as an issue several times here: #development-announcements message

[digital mirage]

Specifically this.

[quaint herald]

that was my first thought but since it's nature resist it shouldn't have ever even been affecting that attack. was it like setting resists to 0 + nature resist debuff on top?

[olive coral]

Heckyea

[digital mirage]

The nature resist debuff was applying to all damage types

There was also a messaging issue with flares from hiding, that should also be fixed

This was a pretty tricky/nuanced issue, so please let me know if it does not appear to be fully fixed. @ing me is fine

One other note - I have a hypothesis that if you have a vulnerability that sufficiently cancels out a resistance, then the resistance message will not be shown, which may lead to confusion (I have 25% resistance and received a rank 9 crit, how is it possible that the message didn't show?). I have not tested this hypothesis due to time constraints, but I wanted to state it aloud for posterity

[olive coral]

Pretty great strides in mechanical dev these last few months, staff!

[vital coyote]

[SMR result: 219 (Open d100: 184)]
You are buffeted by the roiling cloud of steam, and knocked to the ground.
You are pinned in place, unable to move.
   ... 65 points of damage!
   Superheated steam boils internal organs!  Your heart is boiled.. not broken.
The shimmering multicolored sphere fades from around you.
You lose your extra internal fortitude.
The powerful look leaves you.
You notice your blood flow go back to normal.
Faint ripples in the ground beneath you become apparent before quickly dissipating.
The deep blue glow leaves you.
The misty halo fades from you.
The dim aura fades from around you.
Your breathing becomes more shallow.
The silvery luminescence fades from around you.
The bright luminescence fades from around you.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around you.
The glowing specks of energy surrounding you suddenly shoot off in all directions, then quickly fade away.
You feel your extra strength departing.
You return to normal color.
The air about you stops shimmering.
Your heart hammers suddenly in your chest before failing entirely.  Even the influence of Troll's Blood is not enough to change the fact of your death.
The faint blue glow fades from around your hands.
The shimmering aura fades from around you.
You no longer feel so dextrous.
You become solid again.
Like sand through an hourglass, your visions of the future slip away and fade from your mind.
You feel your forehead pulse as your mind relaxes.
The dully illuminated mantle protecting you begins to falter, then completely fades away.
The light blue glow leaves you.
You feel less confident than before.
You feel your extra magical awareness leave you.``` so many spells, so little resilience

[wintry sleet]

219

[vital coyote]

[SMR result: 241 (Open d100: 187, Bonus: 11)]
You are buffeted by the roiling cloud of steam, and knocked to the ground.
You are pinned in place, unable to move.
   ... 52 points of damage!
   Superheated blast turns facial complexion to a curiously unhealthy pallor.
The layer of protection fades away.``` 219 is rookie numbers honestly

how about a legendary gemstone that prevents all open rolls

[night ridge]

I'll take two!

[vital coyote]

or a gemstone that lets me depart without penalty

[modest hill]

Salve pretty cheaply removes the penalty. I can't imagine anyone slotting gemstones would use that one tbh.

[vital coyote]

You are buffeted by the roiling cloud of steam, and knocked to the ground.
You are pinned in place, unable to move.
   ... 50 points of damage!
   Overexposure to superheated steam reduces left arm to simmering tissue!
   You are stunned for 6 rounds!
Roundtime: 20 sec.``` teras steam really is the hardest critter in the area

[simple sable]

man, I remember the first time that ever happened to me. I didnt go back to that area for like 3 years

[smoky pilot]

I died so much hunting in Teras. And yet I kept coming back for more. It’s one of those really fun hunting zones, imo. Just super cool thematically. Probably a bit less nasty with resilience now live

[vital coyote]

  CS: +444 - TD: +344 + CvA: -21 + d100: +20 - -5 == +104
  Warding failed!
Your movements slow to a crawl!
Roundtime: 13 sec.
Roundtime changed to 15 seconds.``` I will continue to use this thread as the catchall for "cheap deaths" -- 15 seconds for a 104 is a bit much

[pastel brook]

Wait why is slow causing 13 seconds of round time at all

[vestal obsidian]

I'm sure they just have a 1000 ranks of air lore

[hard marsh]

Are they using 504 or 1602? I mean...not that it probably matters.

[quaint herald]

they're both pretty similar and supposed to be more like 5 seconds than 15

[hot thunder]

If a creature version of a spell isn't acting properly... and it is for a sure a spell (as seen in Spell Active) and not an innate creature ability, then I would submit a bug report.

These are being handled case by case since the disabler review.

[vital coyote]

Im not sure if its a spell, as a warrior I cannot KS dispel it (as opposed to say hinterwild golem slow which I can), but I'll double check and bug it all the same

[wintry sleet]

SMR SvD: +59 - Penalty: +8 + o100 roll: +170 == +221
With an agonizing crunch, a cold tentacle wraps around your abdomen and constricts violently as it whips you back toward the void!
   ... 35 points of damage!
   You take a hard fall from being thrown and crack your hip!
   You are knocked to the ground!
   You are stunned for 5 rounds!
Though you fall free from the predatory limbs, the tumultuous energies of the spatial anomaly tear at you, warping your flesh!
   ... 50 points of damage!
   Gaping hole punched through your stomach!
Roundtime: 20 sec.```
feels like I should be dead

[vital coyote]

  CS: +268 - TD: +192 + CvA: 0 + d100: +70 - +40 == +106
  Warding failed!
Your movements slow to a crawl!
Roundtime: 13 sec.
Roundtime changed to 15 seconds.

!SPR>spell act
  Slowed .................................. 00:00:22``` different character, different critter, still 15s hit on a relatively low roll

[royal snow]

That looks very buggy compared to what the wiki says it should be.

[hot thunder]

again, just bug it please. This is not the place to report bugs with anything besides resilience

[digital mirage]

#development-announcements message

[vital coyote]

<we're not worthy gif>

[wintry sleet]

was this affecting creatures too? (i.e. when players cast it against npcs)

[digital mirage]

Yep

[wintry sleet]

:says a prayer for Nyxus:
you just nerfed wizards...😬

[digital mirage]

Maybe! It's somewhat complicated in terms of the factors that go into the RT calculation. But the behavior should now be the same as it was in December 2023.

[hot thunder]

wizards are made of foam and rubber, aren't they?

[wintry sleet]

#1191064189981163611 message
there were actually a number of bugs introduced when the spell disabler update changed slow - I wonder if these other two bugs were fixed - haven't been hunting my wizard there in a long time (slow no longer dispelling the crusader's haste buff and also sigil staff proc taking 4 mana instead of 1)

[digital mirage]

It might. If not, my understanding is that the 4 mana bug is being looked at

[void badge]

must be resilience at work here? Not sure I've ever taken a shot to the chest like that and survived:

Vile claws slash at Jaskier, their touch burning with otherworldly cold!
   ... 35 points of damage!
   An icy slash across the lower back slices deep into Jaskier's muscle!
   He is stunned!
One of the shadowed limbs pulls Jaskier close to the rift!
   ... 50 points of damage!
   Ribs shatter outward spraying bone everywhere, exposing a still beating heart!```

[quaint herald]

maybe? vacuum to the chest need a rank 8+ to be fatal (that's a 7)

on a 170 with i assume decent padding that doesn't seem that unusual (even without)

[void badge]

ah, i should've looked up the crit rankings there - he's in brig with 12 CER, so good point. For some reason, I thought that messaging was a higher crit rank

[quaint herald]

pretty muche everything to the torso is 8+, like all crit types. plasma is randomly like 7 to the chest that's it. it's pretty hard to die to a torso crit which makes all those anomaly abdomen crits for a trillion people complain about extra sus

https://gswiki.play.net/Critical#Fatal_Critical_Rank is always a good easy quick ref. basically it's mostly 8s across the board for torso. some 9s, plasma is 7 (for chest only), and then unbalance and grapple have no fatal crits to the torso at all

[void badge]

Thanks FFNGT - I didn't realize that table was out there!

[abstract pilot]

[SMR result: 100 (Open d100: 35)]
A falling arrow flashes past a chitinous kiramon myrmidon and shatters against the floor!
[SMR result: 226 (Open d100: 168)]
An arrow pierces a corpulent kresh ravager!
   ... 30 points of damage!
   Impressive shot shatters wrist!
   The kresh ravager is stunned!

 ** As a resonating song emanates from your firewheel longbow, it entwines you in night blue wisps of ephemera.  Suddenly, a star-sparked rush of percussive pressure from the longbow whips out at a corpulent kresh ravager! **
   ... 15 points of damage!
   The kresh ravager's ribs warp and crack violently.

 ** As a resonating song emanates from your firewheel longbow, it entwines you in night blue wisps of ephemera.  Suddenly, a star-sparked rush of percussive pressure from the longbow whips out at a corpulent kresh ravager! **
   ... 10 points of damage!
   Tendons in the kresh ravager's weapon arm snap.
[SMR result: 242 (Open d100: 188, Penalty: 3)]
Acidic ooze erupts from a corpulent kresh ravager's flesh like pus out of a rupturing boil, dousing you with corrosive goop!
   ... 64 points of damage!
   Acid bath empties chest.  It's a lot cleaner now.

<spells fall off> 
<dead>``` Seems like resiliance should have done something here, no?

[little marsh]

What makes you think it didn't? Resilience does not make you death immune.

[slow thicket]

I'd be more surprised if a 242 endroll SMR wasn't fatal tbh 😆

[abstract pilot]

Got it -- working as intended -- I would have been moar dead without it.

It might be nice if there was some messaging indicating that resiliance mechanisms are being applied in a certain situation. e.g.: "You feel resiliant" "<then acid kills you>".

[slow thicket]

Well, in theory it always applies - so possibly more helpful to indicate when it changes the outcome

[hard marsh]

Yeah - I know that is a small thing - but I really likee it when Naijin changed the messaging for armor reinforcement/blessing to show a message when it kicks in

[modest hill]

Is there a message for Redux, because while I know this isn't redux, it functions similarly.

[hardy yoke]

There isn't

[digital mirage]

If such a message existed, it would be displayed on all critical-based damage against players except for AS/DS. I’m wondering if that might be too spammy.

[quaint herald]

You could add it for if it does actually reduce the base crit down a peg but, then you'll just get complaints when it reduces a 9 to an 8 and people still die being like "i saw the message and still died. please fix."
edit: and is obviously a lot more annoying to have to check before + after, etc. etc.

[pastel brook]

Have a super verbose setting that alerts every time any item or ability you have is used in calculating a crit. Then people can turn it on for 35 seconds and then immediately turn it off when they realize it adds fifteen lines to each attack

[abstract pilot]

I withdraw my request. Mostly I just wanted to say, "I died, please fix."

[stoic meadow]

Please implement an all encompassing crit/damage reduction message system so I can FEEEEEL my gear and training saving me....
Siren lizard slashes you
The slash damage is lessened by your armor's** slash resistance then reduced by your armors crit padding** and damage padding before further reduced by mana sigil arcane aegis then deflected by your resilient skin and healthy constitution while under the effect of Item's Supercharger and Divine Incarnation - Armor

[slow thicket]

Saved by the power of Math, the true God King of the Arkati

[stoic meadow]

Or it would be interesting to show gross crit and post crit: Hit for tier9! damaged for tier5

[abstract pilot]

I'm surprised there isn't a script that adds that information at the end of attacks. Or is there?

[digital mirage]

It also reduces damage done, so it helps even if the rank isn't reduced (EDIT: wait, is this true? am I spreading misinformation?)

[hardy yoke]

Basically, always assume Resilience is helping, unless you're KS in which case you were deemed Too Sweet A Dude to need additional buffs

[hard marsh]

I admit my KS characters are happy being "Too Sweet A Dude".

[brittle crow]

https://tenor.com/view/4life-wwe-gif-19603531

[vestal obsidian]

[SMR result: 109 (Open d100: 51)]
... the wave heads right for you!
   ... 30 points of damage!
   You hear several snaps as your neck is broken in several places.

Rank 6 on a 109. Atoll wave still seems to be in the outlier category.

[wintry sleet]

that is gross - I am never going to visit that place until that gets fixed

[pastel brook]

Next February at duskruin, surfboards

[hard marsh]

I’ve been there for a month or two. Run across many times a day. My rogue falls off on occasion but never ever left a wound. Kinda weird.

[vestal obsidian]

This is the wave, not the log. I would also hope a rogue gets caught up less than a cleric by it!

[sharp quest]

Way too cool for you guys. Arm floaties are the best I can do.

[hard marsh]

Ohh. Yeah. Fair. I don’t get hit by that. Sorry I thought that was on a ranger for some reasons.

[digital mirage]

I suspect that the wave is tuned with the assumption that you’re supposed to take shelter from it. Is there a message alerting you that it’s coming?

[abstract pilot]

Yes.

[pastel brook]

I think FFNG has posted before that the easiest way to deal with the atoll wave is to go inside when you see it coming

[hard marsh]

Yeah. I haven’t quite figured out how long you have based on any messages. But I typically head south or through the barrier whenever I see the wave message.

[stoic meadow]

Swim ranks should give you a percentage chance to avoid or swim through the wave.

[hot thunder]

Can halflings have feet floaties instead? Or do they naturally grow those on their own?

[stoic meadow]

Well atleast when they die the cleric will be able to easily find them as their big feet will be sticking out above the water....

[urban socket]

Maybe the ocean wouldn't be so salty if you'd all wave back to it once in a while

[shy linden]

do critters get hit by the wave too?

[hard marsh]

Never seen a roll against them - and when I make it back to the room I was in they are still there (without injuries if I didn't give 'em any)

[vital coyote]

  AS: +244 vs DS: +229 with AvD: +16 + d100 roll: +84 = +115
   ... and hits for 1 point of damage!
   Thrust catches your chin.
  Leaves an impression but no cut.
As a firethorn shoot hits you, one of the thorns explodes in a ball of flame!
   ... 50 points of damage!
   Skin and some muscle burnt off chest.
   You are stunned for 5 rounds!``` is this magical because fire, or not because it comes from an AS attack?

[hardy yoke]

its probably not on a system that interacts with resistance or resilience because it was coded in 1996

[hot thunder]

it's just a flare like most other types of flares, I would assume.

[stoic meadow]

I just assume the Fhorian village on Teras is like Jurassic Park and everyone is equally in danger no matter your level/gear 🦎

[hot thunder]

Teras in general is like Jurassic Park, have you ever looked at a tsark? they are basically fire-breathing t-rexes

[abstract pilot]

I’m reading Mistborn — Luthadel is how I imagine Teras a bit.

[digital mirage]

I just bought that for my daughter for Christmas. I may have to borrow it so I can reread it once she’s done 🙂

[abstract pilot]

https://tenor.com/view/mistborn-kredik-shaw-luthadel-gif-23019341

[vestal obsidian]

Well look at that, KS got something after all.

[frail jetty]

i'd like to know, for those with KS and redux, what damage types aren't being blocked that have to be supported with resilience?

[astral kayak]

It was suggest adding the Illoke elder's Massive stone hand maneuver might need a look at. an end result on(what I believe) a primarily CC maneuver getting an instant death crit on an end result of 190.
I was running Major protection sigil from GoS if it matters

[void badge]

I remember when resilience was going to save me from these instances 😂 :

Shadowy, fleshless limbs snatch from the other side the ghostly rift, their grasping claws flailing blindly through the aperture!
[SMR result: 173 (Open d100: 159, Penalty: 18)]
Vile claws slash at Zahtla, their touch burning with otherworldly cold!
   ... 30 points of damage!
   Icy blast blinds Zahtla's eye.  But he won't need eyes anyway!

 * Zahtla drops dead at your feet!

Zahtla becomes solid again.
The shimmering multicolored sphere fades from around Zahtla.
The layer of raw elemental energy surrounding Zahtla dissipates.
Zahtla no longer bristles with energy.
Zahtla seems a bit less imposing.
Zahtla appears somehow different.
The glowing specks of energy surrounding Zahtla suddenly shoot off in all directions, then quickly fade away.
The tingling sensation and sense of security leaves Zahtla.
Zahtla glances around, looking a bit less confident.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around Zahtla.
The bright luminescence fades from around Zahtla.
The silvery luminescence fades from around Zahtla.
Zahtla seems slightly different.
Zahtla seems hesitant.
Faint ripples in the ground beneath Zahtla become apparent before quickly dissipating.
The evanescent shield shrouding Volmare fades briefly, then flickers with a pale incandescence.
[SMR result: 247 (Open d100: 233, Penalty: 12)]
Vile claws slash at Volmare, their touch burning with otherworldly cold!
   ... 70 points of damage!
   Deadly accuracy shatters Volmare's spine into a thousand tiny icy shards!

 * Volmare drops dead at your feet!

A subtle light fades from Volmare's eyes.
The air about Volmare shimmers momentarily before the evanescent shield surrounding him collapses.
Volmare appears less confident.
The dim aura fades from around Volmare.
The very powerful look leaves Volmare.
The white light leaves Volmare.
The deep blue glow leaves Volmare.
Deep blue motes swirl away from Volmare and fade.
The powerful look leaves Volmare.
The air calms down around Volmare.
The dull golden nimbus fades from around Volmare.
Volmare becomes solid again.
Volmare seems a bit less imposing.
The light blue glow leaves Volmare.
Volmare seems hesitant.
Volmare seems slightly different.
An ethereal golden collection bowl drifts out of Volmare, then vanishes.
The brilliant aura fades away from Volmare.
A white glow rushes away from Volmare.
The opalescent aura fades from around Volmare.
[SMR result: 34 (Open d100: 29, Penalty: 7)]
Jaskier twists away from the shadowy, skeletal limbs!
[SMR result: 25 (Open d100: 59, Penalty: 21)]
You twist away from the shadowy, skeletal limbs!```

[void badge]

Bard Luck Charm fired, 25% cold Resist in ranger trinket, HCP Metal breastplate, and open rolls are still gonna open roll.....

[SMR result: 267 (Open d100: 252, Penalty: 3)]
Cold mist engulfs you, brutally leaching strength from your limbs as all around you vanishes in occluding fog!
Your bone white oak amulet pulses briefly, deflecting some of the freezing damage!
   ... 59 points of damage!
   Deadly accurate hit!  Your back is shattered into icy oblivion!```

[dense crest]

That looks like it stung

[obtuse owl]

Rough. No one is so strong they can avoid them.