#[Official] Spell Disabler Review

1 messages · Page 4 of 1

nova violet
#

fixing breakage is the empath service

tough flame
#

Wait, variance in CS? AS, sure, but CS is pretty much a baseline that can go up to 50 higher via enhancives, Ascension, and quartz orbs. Going beyond that needs wild pay event stuff.

nova violet
#

TRANSFER XAZ DAGGER

covert pewter
covert pewter
fierce saddle
#

yeah CS is a lot less variance than AS, in fact that's kinda it's problem? It has so little variance

low mango
#

The empath service should be psychotherapy. "Tell me how the goblin made you feel."

tough flame
#

Ohhhh, comparing professions to one another. Yeah, got it, that's an entirely different story.

broken knoll
#

Somebody should have the math on what potion and profession we should buy for maximum effect.

covert pewter
#

KS Warrior, duh!

alpine rampart
#

Careful examination indicates the temporal warpike has a base strength of 1 and a base durability of 130. You also determine the current integrity of the temporal warpike to be at 100.0%. hard pass on the breakage please

nova violet
#

I mean it's a time pike

#

you can just send it back in time to when it wasn't broken

covert pewter
#

This is the way.

fierce saddle
acoustic bough
#

First shield you hit causes a rip in space/time

covert pewter
fierce saddle
#

oh I'm sure, but like basing it off those normal max builds as a basis I think is always the correct starting point

normal oasis
#

If a wizard leaves Rawknuckles Den at 5mph and a disir leaves fjallhart at 10mph…

covert pewter
#

Illistim or Turamzzyrian wizard?

nova violet
#

which of them gets hit by the disabler

covert pewter
#

Trick question: the best wizards are halflings.

#

You are the weakest link. Goodbye.

normal oasis
#

With their crippling tart dependencies?

#

Pass.

covert pewter
#

Those are just Paradis.

tough flame
# fierce saddle https://gswiki.play.net/Casting_strength is your friend, you take the bases the...

I assume the problem from a design perspective is that any TD counts as half TD of other types, so you end up juggling around something with 517 baseline and 475 baseline... Making things hard for the 517 might push it out of reach for the 475.

That is, of course, unless you just manually set TDs and more or less ignore buffs as a means of balancing--which I assume is a huge part of why so many creatures in the Hinterwilds don't have spells. 😄

covert pewter
#

Everyone knows the real halflings are tiny Mongols.

dusty rivet
#

the real disabling spell for many wizards, was the diabeetus

alpine rampart
#

Coldplay Paradis

normal oasis
broken knoll
covert pewter
alpine rampart
fierce saddle
low mango
#

All that snow is actually powdered sugar that escaped

covert pewter
alpine rampart
#

how long until the nation of the north implodes due to political infighting and lack of resources for refugees? and/or blood magic

rough swift
#

Find out on the next installment!

covert pewter
#

🩸 🪄

rough swift
#

We're pretty far off-topic now, I'll stop.

broken knoll
#

Day 5 of this and the GMs continue to tweak. It seems like a substantial review on a live launch to me.

keen cape
fringe orchid
night panther
#

All other things being equal, why does 410 sometimes get a SMR bonus and other times not? Both of these casts were the first actions I took versus the targets.
No bonus:

A sphere of dark ethereal ripples expands outward from you.
[SMR result: 153 (Open d100: 76)]
A triton fanatic is buffeted by the dark ethereal sphere and is knocked to the ground.
[SMR result: 152 (Open d100: 64)]
A triton fanatic is buffeted by the dark ethereal sphere and is knocked to the ground.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.```
Bonus:
```You gesture at a triton warden.
A sphere of dark ethereal ripples expands outward from you.
[SMR result: -69 (Open d100: -162, Bonus: 15)]
A triton warden is buffeted by the dark ethereal sphere, but is unaffected.
[SMR result: 187 (Open d100: 94, Bonus: 15)]
A triton fanatic is buffeted by the dark ethereal sphere and is knocked to the ground.
You feel the unnatural surge of necrotic power wane away.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.```
verbal portal
#

What are some things you’d like to revisit?

# 
  CS: +402 - TD: +393 + CvA: -8 + d100: +97 - -5 == +103
  Warding failed!
Your orase walking stick is struck with an Ithzir adept's cast.
>
Ithzir adept entered the room.
A rippling stream of vacuum leaps from a sigil-carved orase walking stick in your right hand.
   ... 25 points of damage!
   Decompression ruptures eye!  Ocular fluid spurts!
   You are stunned for 10 rounds!
S>``` Maybe this spell doesn’t count as a disabler, but it seems a bit OP. I don’t mind taking the heavy damage and stuns, but one of the rounds almost invariably crit kills me. One of those things that just makes me take a deep breath and try not to get frustrated. Any chance to just remove crit kills from this spell?
sonic marten
#

Major elemental/spiritual dispels do not trigger spell disruption like the minor counterparts. Is that intended?

coral spade
#

One thing Im not sure people get about playing a solo square in a place like the HW….your TTK is often terribly slow. A typical disir will take me a minimum of a disarm, a leg cripple, a hamstring, a spell cleave, a sunder shield and a feint…all before i start attacking. If any of those fail, I have to do it again. Thats about 13 seconds of setups. I normally 1.5-2 assualts to kill it, so thats up to 12 more seconds. So if a 25-30 sec kill time per critter is fun for you (i personally love it), cool. Im assuming if pure mains/players loved that they wouldnt be playing pures.

fringe orchid
#

Not all squares take that long. You also can live for 30s in the full plate taking hits where the pure might just instantly die without the disabler

night panther
#

The warriors doing things materially faster than Ptolemy describes vs disir are probably running 800+ AS sustained which absolutely changes things but they're outliers like Melivn's CS steamrolling everything

pine charm
#

Bringing this back to spells....110 still not as good as 410

dusky hatch
#

I don't find pures to be as fragile as you're making them out to be. Sure, things can certainly go south - and when they do, recovery is unlikely. But a bulk of the time they're cozy in guarded stance, unable to take any damage at all. Things like 520, 319, 1125 can kick in to mitigate quite a lot. Also soft RT allows for a simple retreat on a bad disable outcome. Didn't knock the bad guy down? NOPE right on out.

The things that "instantly kill" in HW - instantly kill all of my characters pretty equally. Bad anomalies, bad disir lances to the eye, etc. That's not to say warriors can't take a few shots to the face and keep rolling, but they're certainly not invulnerable. Wizards in particular also have the massive advantage known as haste, which allows them to attempt a disable and either re-attempt on a failure.

pine charm
#

If Squares were somehow churning through stuff at a rapid rate to blow everyone else out of the water MMA groups would just be a bunch of warriors with a few clerics thrown in to make silver...that's not the case...I ain't buying the argument...110 needs a buff.

violet ferry
#

6 Warriors, 2 Clerics, and an Empath probably would be an unstoppable grist mill of monster parts and shields just flying everywhere but honestly any group at that size is EZ mode, even pures.

pine charm
pearl creek
#

what skills factor into the spell power / spell SMR again? Level, Spell circle ranks, Spell aim - I'm confused if Lore benefits are the effects or contributing the the actual SMR roll to land. I'm specifically trying to look at post cap growth options for more reliably landing these spells without getting too wild with spell circle splits

#

to put a few numbers to it, messing around with my wizard I cornered a mob and kept knocking over the same fanatic. The success margin is good here, my focus and intent is the growth after cap.
77 MnE, level 100 vs a Triton Fanatic in Atoll.

212 spell aim: +93 to d100 roll

A wave of dark ethereal ripples moves outward from you.
[SMR result: 172 (Open d100: 79)]```

262 spell aim: +91 to d100 roll
```You gesture at a triton fanatic.
A wave of dark ethereal ripples moves outward from you.
[SMR result: 143 (Open d100: 52)]```

262 spell aim: +94 to d100 roll
```A wave of dark ethereal ripples moves outward from you.
[SMR result: 102 (Open d100: 8)]```
oblique coral
#

According to the formula would that +50 Spell AIm ranks give you an extra +25 margin?

pearl creek
#

that's why I am asking. It doesn't appear ranks above 2x are helping how I'd expect. My suspicion is I am missing something, so I'm asking if others know or have input on it. SMR as a system has diminishing returns too, so it could be that kicking in? I've seen similar on physical cman

coral spade
#

Different specific stancing percentages for each one?

analog nexus
#

Did I miss the formula in the discussion yesterday?

coral spade
#

I believe the specific formula they said will not be revealed. Only general guidance.
So, let's talk Spell Power! The new disabler spells that use SMR take into account your level and your spell circle ranks to produce to produce Spell Power, which is what determines your success at punishing your foes. Spell Aim ranks can add to your Spell Power, but they offer a much smaller contribution than spell circle ranks. Disablers have a bonus to success; AOE disablers have a smaller bonus to success. 410 (Ewave) and 435 (Major Ewave) have also been updated to be more forgiving for those of you on the 10-ranks-is-all-you-get bandwagon.

pearl creek
coral spade
#

fair point. I do know on the physical side, I see +1/-1 variations on endrolls ALOT. I realize these are bigger margins

pearl creek
#

yeah, a little variability doesn't stand out as anything surprising with SMR to me. It's how close the numbers are going +50 ranks past 2x that had me asking about it.

faint cargo
night panther
#

If ascension/enhancives in Spell Aiming are supposed to be the path to improving your results vs ascension creatures it's not unreasonable to expect them to add... well, more than that testing showed

nova violet
acoustic bough
#

no no no. That's the old formula

fierce saddle
#

SMR itself also has some variance to it, there's some randomization besides the roll, it also takes into the account like the creatures stance and such too, so a lot of these factors do make it sort of hard, even when testing on the same creature

And yeah acuity procs like ensorcel also all will affect it

night panther
acoustic bough
#

Against fanatic's as well. Had 0 field exp so I didn't have to do any math to figure out their level.
67 ranks, 0 SA

[web: healthy: true, status: false, smr_base: 88, kill_exp: 100]
[web: healthy: true, status: false, smr_base: 89, kill_exp: 100]

67 ranks, 202 SA

[web: healthy: true, status: false, smr_base: 99, kill_exp: 100]
[web: healthy: true, status: false, smr_base: 98, kill_exp: 100]

SA is a minor contributor. I haven't finished my testing yet. Need another 12 hours probably the way I'm testing it to get all level ranges with 0x - 2x SA

coral spade
#

That feels VERY similar to the numerical gains I get on physical smr for >202 ranks of cman
Extremely sharp diminishing returns. Wonder if its similar math behind it

amber fern
#

+/-1 is due to SMR being based on kind of a 1000 point system, which I expect then gets truncated to a percentage for d100 rolls #893166883568775268 message

acoustic bough
#

Seems to be a 3 point range per level

[web: healthy: true, status: false, smr_base: 98, kill_exp: 70]
[web: healthy: true, status: false, smr_base: 94, kill_exp: 80]
[web: healthy: true, status: false, smr_base: 92, kill_exp: 90] ?
[web: healthy: true, status: false, smr_base: 89, kill_exp: 100]
[web: healthy: true, status: false, smr_base: 88, kill_exp: 100]
[web: healthy: true, status: false, smr_base: 78, kill_exp: 130]
[web: healthy: true, status: false, smr_base: 75, kill_exp: 140]
[web: healthy: true, status: false, smr_base: 72, kill_exp: 150]
oblique coral
#

I know SMR values are on a weird scale so maybe +50 SA ranks/2 = 25 and then you divide that by 10 and it only a 2.5 booost?

pearl creek
#

I remember AP gains helping so much less than expected because of the 1000 part of SMR. a gain of 20 AP was roughly 2 in the SMR roll for my warrior and his training.
This would track similarly if so

amber fern
#

I think they can scale arbitrarily, different for each spell

night panther
#

2.5 to endroll for adding +50 to spell aim is depressing lol. but that tracks.

acoustic bough
#

I also did not notice any difference from a fanatic that just spawned, a fanatic that just attacked, and a fanatic that just spawned and was searching around to find me while hidden. I'm not sure stance has an affect on spell SMR.

amber fern
#

SMR bonus for ranger spells is conceptually similar to Naijin's explanation of 917 #rangers message but then summoning lore contributes in it's own seemingly separate way, and you can note that, at the high end, it takes 10 spell ranks for +1 bonus

oblique coral
night panther
#

Does it? Spell ranks count for more than spell aiming. Kaetel is doing 153/75/75 and having good results with Call Wind

oblique coral
#

((spell ranks (from the affected circle) + Spell Aiming ranks) / 2) so I assume spell rank = SA

vital umbra
acoustic bough
# vital umbra Stance definitely has an effect on SMR.

Yeah it does on SMR, but unless fanatics spawn in offensive and live in offensive, it had no meaningful impact

[web: healthy: true, status: false, smr_base: 89, kill_exp: 100]
[web: healthy: true, status: false, smr_base: 88, kill_exp: 100]
[web: healthy: true, status: false, smr_base: 88, kill_exp: 100]
[web: healthy: true, status: false, smr_base: 88, kill_exp: 100]
[web: healthy: true, status: false, smr_base: 88, kill_exp: 100]
[web: healthy: true, status: false, smr_base: 88, kill_exp: 100]
[web: healthy: true, status: false, smr_base: 89, kill_exp: 100]

[web: healthy: true, status: false, smr_base: 98, kill_exp: 100]
[web: healthy: true, status: false, smr_base: 99, kill_exp: 100]
[web: healthy: true, status: false, smr_base: 99, kill_exp: 100]
[web: healthy: true, status: false, smr_base: 98, kill_exp: 100]
[web: healthy: true, status: false, smr_base: 98, kill_exp: 100]
[web: healthy: true, status: false, smr_base: 99, kill_exp: 100]

The only variance of more than 3 was when their level was different.

vital umbra
oblique coral
acoustic bough
vital umbra
nova violet
#

I mean he doesn’t sound sure!

acoustic bough
pearl creek
#

vs a player character: Caster in offensive stance. Defending character changed stances. casting 410

Target in Defensive: +9
[SMR result: 23 (Open d100: 12)]

Target in Offensive: +25
[SMR result: 82 (Open d100: 57)]

vital umbra
#

I read them! I'm saying it's demonstrably false. I am sure.

oblique coral
#

you mean you were in offensive or they were?

nova violet
#

Stance’s relevance to SMR is different per ability, as anybody who uses feint knows

amber fern
#

but, we're pretty darn sure stance affects ones SMR defense - I thought that was universal

acoustic bough
#

I will accept it varies based on attack, but yeah protectors and fanatics both are either always in offensive (they are not), or it doesn't affect web.

nova violet
#

It wouldn’t amaze me if it didn’t affect web defense

#

But it would probably surprise me a little haha

oblique coral
#

So basically the takeaway is shifting spell ranks to weird builds and/or massively investing in SA ascension or enhancives will hardly move the dial for ewave and maybe other profession based SMRv

amber fern
#

I'm not sure that's known for sure yet, but I would expect sharp diminishing returns, which seem to be typical of other SMR skills

nova violet
#

I am surprised that the contribution for spell aim over 202 seems to be nominal

vital umbra
# 
You are now in a defensive stance.
>
Lunok utters a light chant and raises his hands, beckoning the lesser spirits to his aid...
>
Lunok gestures at you.
Cloudy wisps swirl about you.
[SMR result: 48 (Open d100: 54)]  (-6)
The wisps dissipate harmlessly into the air.
>stance o
You are now in an offensive stance.
>
Lunok utters a light chant and raises his hands, beckoning the lesser spirits to his aid...
>
Lunok gestures at you.
Cloudy wisps swirl about you.
[SMR result: 69 (Open d100: 60)] (+9)
The wisps dissipate harmlessly into the air.```
15 different
dusky hatch
# 
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a flayed gigas disciple.
Cloudy wisps swirl about a flayed gigas disciple.
[SMR result: 152 (Open d100: 82)]
The wisps solidify into thick strands of webbing that tighten about her body!
An earthy, sweet aroma clings to a flayed gigas disciple in a murky haze, accompanied by soot brown specks of leaf mold.
The vitality of nature bestows you with a burst of strength!

 ** Your hand surges with power as verdant radiance coalesces around it! **

   ... 25 points of damage!
   Vicious strike punctures intestines!
   The gigas disciple is stunned!
Nature's blessing of vitality departs as your arcane prowess returns to normal.
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.```
This is quite a satisfactory result as a ranger with 67 MnS. It does have me wishing Imaera had fire crits though 😆
fierce saddle
#

He then immediately broke the web and spatial anomolied right? That is what happened to me testing web on disciples haha

amber fern
#

I've been under the impression that existing spells do consider the target's stance - isn't that true of 917? if so, web seems odd in that regard

oblique coral
#

It seems there is a disconnect between maybe the players who want to disable top critters 95% and maybe dev who maintain 60-80% is reasonable for SPELL disablers at the highest level

nova violet
#

I mean

#

Players would like to disable top creatures 100% of the time

#

maybe more

faint cargo
#

I want my spells to give it their all, 110% or bust.

vital umbra
nova violet
#

Equally, though, top creatures would like to never be disabled at all and to kill the player characters

#

We must consider both views

vital umbra
#

Good people on both sides.

oblique coral
#

Has anyone felt that critter disablers are worse vs them since the update?

nova violet
#

Yeah

#

I posted a clip where I got webbed off a 102 web bolt

#

But I lived because it only lasted 8 seconds haha

pine charm
pearl creek
#

I would hope to have the room to grow to better success rates than 60-80% at the top end given time enough xp/asc etc. A long climb is fine, as long as it's there. Not having a character that relies on 410, I think the floor and changes are universally better for me. I use MnS and prof specific circles vs MnE.

dusky hatch
fierce saddle
#

I imagine a lot of creatures were nerfed in this whole process 100% success 410 went both ways hah

oblique coral
#

So we moving away from "whoever shoots first" to "star wars storm trooper battles"

royal kite
oblique coral
#

I binged Jedi Fallen Order and Jedi Survivor since Christmas, would recommend the games to play

acoustic bough
dusky hatch
# oblique coral It seems there is a disconnect between maybe the players who want to disable top...

I'm curious what percentage of this divide comes from players of warding pures vs bolters. I bring it up because warding is a very binary hunting system, and the goal is 100% warding. Bolting on the other hand is naturally subject to a lot of other systems, like stance and EBP - so my gut says that people who like bolting are slightly more tolerant of individual failures. (of course wizards can just brute force bolting with haste, but that's a separate topic)

fierce saddle
oblique coral
fierce saddle
#

It also factors in wounds, blood loss, and of course Amy stays effects

pine charm
acoustic bough
dusky hatch
#

I'm 95% certain I can't ward anything outside of the forest with MnS. But also I have no idea why I'd want to use 110

night panther
#

Additional updates pending!

pine charm
dusky hatch
#

But it's single target?

nova violet
#

110 sucks with 67 MNS that’s why it goes generally unused

#

But that’s why additional updates are pending

fierce saddle
#

I mean my sorc can probably go ward some hinterwilds stuff with it, he hit basically everything with 135 which should be the same cs/tf, but it's not gonna be nearly as good of success as current web is, especially for you cheaty rangers with your spider aspects hah

#

I wonder how many people we'd need to sacrifice to get an aoe version of 715 to match 217

nova violet
#

Just give empaths 720 to balance it out

dusky hatch
#

This blinding effect has a 90% chance to cause the target to lose any PREPAREd spell, Hmm, I actually forgot about this aspect of 135. Might need to explore further

dusty rivet
#

this is kinda a thing i see people trending towards here and i get it but i also don't want every minor circle to have single target knockdown, aoe knockdown, single target TD debuff, aoe td debuff, single target immobilize, , etc. like...i'd like to think we can get some form of parity across classess/circles without having like 6 identical spell slots between them

fierce saddle
#

I mean I was referring to aoe itchy curse, I don't know what your talking about

dusty rivet
#

aoe itchy curse but it's player (including self) unfriendly and has the old 2 minute duration

night panther
#

I would instead propose itchy curse be deleted from the game entirely

faint cargo
haughty heart
nova violet
#

players who don't submerge themselves in water regularly should get itchy curse

#

and the PCs!

#

I really meant the PCs!

#

but you know

night panther
#

Itchy Curse and weapon fire are nearly useless for players to cast but brutal when creatures cast them, they do have that in common

dusty rivet
#

sandstorm a player and tilt them into oblivion. it's so annoying.

sandstorm is like riding in a car with the game engine and the game is like "stop hitting yourself. stop hitting yourself."

fierce saddle
#

That's what I always thought about insect swarm when I hunted the red forest, nah uh, you can't do that cause BEES...

dusty rivet
#

"the most annoying person in the world" should be an ascension archetype. you learn 715, 615, 914, 1219, 1203

fierce saddle
#

Insect swarm, one of the only spells that can rival how insane old sorcerer code is, to the point they didn't try to update it in the ranger review haha

royal kite
reef condor
#

did sympathy get nerf with the disabler update?

fierce saddle
#

only change to sympathy mentioned was a mana reduction

limpid geode
#

504 used to dispel the haste buff from Fallen Crusaders and now it doesn't. Can that be reimplemented please?

night panther
#

That's a cool bit of counterplay, hopefully it being removed was unintended and it gets reinstated

limpid geode
#

also here's some more data from my wizard with 75 MnE ranks and 208 spell aim ranks against a lvl 106, debuffed with 216 so I know it's in offensive

A murky soul siphon is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves and is knocked to the ground.```
pre-roll = 78
Same wizard, same target - but with 257 spell aim ranks. Same target still under effects of 216:
```[SMR result: 135 (Open d100: 54)]
A murky soul siphon is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves and is knocked to the ground.```
pre-roll = 81
So only +3 for going from 208 to 257 spell aim ranks? That's pretty terrible.
#

Same test, same everything as above - just with 912:

[SMR result: 36 (Open d100: -48, Bonus: 2)]
A murky soul siphon is unaffected.```
pre-roll = 84
```[SMR result: 108 (Open d100: 21, Bonus: 2)]
The wind knocks a murky soul siphon off balance and it falls over!
The wind then subsides.```
pre-roll = 87
hazy viper
#

It seems a fine balance to make the SMR disablers viable for professions that cannot get 100 spell ranks and 2x spell aim versus the professions that can. But I see a lot of clips where the success rate is consistently above 70%. That seems pretty good for an AOE disabler. shrug

limpid geode
#

I'm not commenting/testing its overall effectiveness - just was curious what type of improvement could be had with some post-cap spell aim. The prospect of doing an additional 40 spell aim via Ascension for 2-3 more pre-roll is pretty ludicrous imo

nova violet
#

it does look like spell aim specifically for disabler SMR would be pretty costly, if you aren't going to use that spell aim for aiming

#

(in before actually it's illegal to aim spells)

night panther
#

It's already illegal to aim spells you literally can't except 708

fringe orchid
# dusky hatch I don't find pures to be as fragile as you're making them out to be. Sure, thing... 
>go black doors
[Sanctum Tower, Second Floor - 25244] (u4216037)
You notice a shambling lurk and a patchwork flesh monstrosity.
Obvious exits: southeast, southwest, down
>
Your disk arrives, following you dutifully.
>
>stance offensive
A shambling lurk's eyes flash a violent and ravenous crimson.  It lurches toward you, lent speed by hunger, and snaps violently with its jagged teeth.
You feel a bit luckier than normal...

[SMR result: 157 (Open d100: 181)]
A shambling lurk's teeth tear viciously into the skin of your neck!
Your body resists the puncturing damage and lessens the severity of the attack!
   ... 30 points of damage!
   Fine shot pierces jugular vein!  Your brain wonders where all its oxygen went, briefly.

One-shot SMR attack.

That's pretty fragile, IMO.

night panther
#

Did you consider rolling better

nova violet
#

I'm not sure a square can survive a 181 either!

fringe orchid
#

I'm pretty sure full plate would have made a difference there. (Also note the ascension resistance.)

nova violet
#

it's rough that that was your BETTER roll

night panther
#

That same thing has happened to me as a cleric in Moonsedge walking into a room and eating the banshee cold SMR. Dead before the room loads. It's for sure insanely frustrating.

nova violet
#

imagine how dead you would've been with the worse roll

fringe orchid
#

#1191064189981163611 message
10 MnE: 68
#1191064189981163611 message
75 MnE: 88
#1191064189981163611 message
100 MnE: 93

Revisiting these clips, I'd like to understand more what exactly Spell Aiming training is doing. Because I feel like these numbers are fine as a baseline. It appears that Spell Aiming, just doesn't do anything. As a Bard, Spell Aiming is very expensive to train and I want a big bonus for choosing to train it.

night panther
#

The bonus looks anemic even for professions with cheap spell aiming, especially the bonus for going past 202 ranks

acoustic hull
#

When was 413 changed to just eTD?

dusky hatch
#

It wasn’t changed, the wiki was wrong (or at least wasn’t sufficiently specific)

tough flame
#

A real case of "nobody casts the spell, so nobody knows what it does to properly update the wiki."

fierce saddle
#

looks like 715 got ninja update thanks for the mana reduction and such!

tough flame
#

Oh, sweet, now I can tell that young sorceress I'm helping to resume with the 715 (which was a hard habit to unlearn after I said to switch to 413 for the mana savings).

fierce saddle
#

yep 715 is currently, as single target, 2 seconds and 3 mana, so yeah I would now recomend using it on basically everything from like level 15-70 or so

nova violet
#

just hex or all the curses?

night panther
#

That’s such a great change, big time leveling QOL for warding. I used 715 on ancients and grizzled (still do out of habit) but also on tougher creatures when first jumping into a new hunting area. 3 mana and 2 seconds is great

nova violet
#

seems really nice yeah

#

sorcerer interference!

fierce saddle
#

I'll test the other curses in a sec

#

looks like all of them

#

You gesture at a stunted halfling bloodspeaker.
CS: +578 - TD: +461 + CvA: +25 + d125: +68 == +210
Warding failed!
A thread of pure black magic issues forth from you toward the halfling bloodspeaker. It coils itself around him, whirling malevolently before disappearing within his body.
A stunted halfling bloodspeaker begins to move erratically and looks extremely clumsy!

-flare stuff here-
Cast Roundtime 2 Seconds.

nova violet
#

nice

fierce saddle
#

I might actually have to play around with setting up some aliases for the different curses now, they were never worth 15 mana, -goes to wiki to remember what they all do...-

tough flame
#

Now we can mostly have the capped sorc experience at lower levels, except with 4 seconds of setup first. 🎉

violet ferry
#

That's pretty crazy beefy. Now we need to unionize for aoe 413 and 715 hex and we're... Mostly all set. Oh and auto hit 1015

nova violet
#

you got 410 you don't need aoe 413!

fierce saddle
#

I actually think I agree with ffng and that aoe can stay with 217

violet ferry
#

If we're giving 217 to more classes.. sure

nova violet
#

you have a cleric! just bring the cleric!

fierce saddle
#

I actually kinda wanna try the stupid wyrm again sometime now, I think if an empath or cleric is with me I'd be actually able to ward it

violet ferry
#

You... Think I don't? I need 100+TD pushdown to hit things... As hard as I want to.

dusky hatch
#

Is 715 hex generic TD?

violet ferry
#

Sorc, which makes it always so weird.

fierce saddle
#

is it sorc td? so it'll be .75 for elemental and spirit

nova violet
#

now you can finally use star curse and activate the bolt build

violet ferry
#

But yeah, the main thing about 413 aoe is to just give more aoe TD pushdown to the remaining classes, including warrior and rogue

dusty rivet
fierce saddle
#

with what aoe warding spell?

violet ferry
#

It's weird that only MjS has aoe auto hit pushdown. Hence why 1015 should auto hit too.

#

Well for wizards 512 and 504 would make sense as followup to aoe 413. For sorcs 703 is a powerful disable that they'd benefit from an AOE pushdown opener. If the goal is multiple setups etc. it seems odd to have only one aoe auto, and the other aoe (1015) still needs to ward

tough flame
#

On a totally different note, how are people RPing this? (...if you are at all.) Leafi's just been saying that magic researchers have made recent breakthroughs.

fierce saddle
#

703 has so much pushdown, it's basically already auto success

nova violet
#

praise marlu 🙏

violet ferry
#

Just tell people you took a lifetime of advice to git gud.

dusky hatch
#

Kaetel got bit by a radioactive spider

nova violet
#

I don't actually think of "the roundtime of blind went down" as having a roleplay component really

tough flame
#

The mana cost also went down!

nova violet
#

that also has no roleplay component!

dusty rivet
violet ferry
#

This is reminding me of the mad vampire in vampire the masquerade who discovered the blood point

nova violet
#

we are not going to go into darkstone and split the mana point to uncover mana quantum mechanics

#

as awesome as that would admittedly be

#

actually I'm gonna go write some DMs

#

but the POINT REMAINS

fierce saddle
#

yeah, I haven't really seen much for me personally to RP with these changes, just maybe that I've decided to use a few new/old tricks or something i dunno

violet ferry
tough flame
#

Maybe I'm just way more of a stickler on wanting in-universe explanations for everything than most people. 🤣 I've not forgotten that time last year when I wanted an explanation for the new premium verbs and people countered that, apparently, to them, there was no in-universe explanation for learning signature verbs at Summit Academy!

limpid geode
#

703 is so awesome I've been wondering if 210 is gonna get some love

nova violet
#

Tikba’s understanding of magic doesn’t really comport with anybody else’s magical theory anyway because she views it as politely asking your friend to send the attack helicopter

#

Marlu just got more patient with requests basically

dusky hatch
dusty rivet
#

do you not have a sorc in your group? lol. 703 is the best
polymorph capped caster to a giant rat

nova violet
#

You should know 703 from the den of rot because that guy there casts it all the time

dusky hatch
#

I was referring to 210 - I am aware of 703s awesomeness! Also I only have a part-time sorc in my squad, usually the wizard comes along 😁

coral spade
pearl creek
#

My Arkati has chosen to alter our arrangement.

tough flame
#

But weapon techniques outright had RP vignettes for them!

coral spade
#

Did they? Hell if i remember that hah. What was it? Warriors less drunk, now we can not be dips?

violet ferry
#

Weapon techs - a gnomish blacksmith came by and taught everybody the secret of putting spoilers on your swords.

tough flame
hazy viper
# 
[SMR result: 150 (Open d100: 61, Bonus: 1)]
Cloudy wisps swirl about a savage fork-tongued wendigo.
[SMR result: 117 (Open d100: 39, Bonus: 2)]

40 Minor Spiritual, 202 Spell Aiming

That's pretty darn good results in my opinion for the spell power adjustment.

fringe orchid
# 
A sphere of dark ethereal ripples expands outward from you.
[SMR result: -5 (Open d100: -46)]
An eyeless black valravn is buffeted by the dark ethereal sphere, but is unaffected.
[SMR result: 100 (Open d100: 38)]
A withered shadow-cloaked draugr is buffeted by the dark ethereal sphere, but is unaffected.

101 MnE Ranks - 2x Spell Aiming (As a Bard).

>cheap throat
The crimson angargeist's neck is out of reach!
alpine rampart
#

In this years publication of "Tremors, Webs and other General Use Magic" we cover new casting methodology letting you achieve similar results but for far less mana.

fierce saddle
#

but anyways, if someone can pass along the thanks for 715 also being updated from the review, please do

violet ferry
#

(Meanwhile, behind the scenes, Sleken is desperately trying to figure out who released a new 715)

keen cape
hazy viper
# 
[SMR result: 110 (Open d100: 58, Bonus: 1)]```
Still 40 minor spiritual and 202 spell aiming.  About 50% chance.
fierce saddle
fringe orchid
keen cape
#

Level is still a big factor.

fierce saddle
#

it probably decided itself, that it was ready to update after appropriate offerings

keen cape
#

you should probably test vs equal level stuff for clarity.

fringe orchid
# keen cape Level is still a big factor.

It doesn't seem to be a big factor in SMR.

>cheap swift
You spin around behind an eyeless black valravn, attempting a swiftkick!
The chausses strike true, but the black valravn shrugs off some of the damage!
[SMR result: 175 (Open d100: 87, Penalty: 9)]
You swiftly place your kick!  The black valravn seems enraged!
Roundtime: 2 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second.
hazy viper
# 
[SMR result: 113 (Open d100: 67, Bonus: 1)]```
Bumped up to 66 minor spirit and 202 spell aiming.
keen cape
#

SMR and SSR aren't the same things.

fierce saddle
#

I don't think we are talking about ssr

nova violet
#

how many ranks of combat maneuvers do you have

#

202, right?

fringe orchid
#

I'm trained to the max in all aspects, so we can compare both equally. It's pretty clear one has a huge advantage, yes, even against these "not equal level stuff"

fierce saddle
#

but the differences there I believe is related to the extra bonus of a single target disabler vs an aoe

keen cape
#

you have 101 ranks in water lore too?

alpine rampart
#

single target is also a lot more effective vs higher level than aoe, that's been mentioned 75 times in this thread at least

fringe orchid
#

Can you tell me what spell I'm supposed to be using as a disbaler then, as a Bard

keen cape
#

Nope.

#

your beautiful voice?

alpine rampart
#

why don't you do what all the other bards do, sing 1030 and kill everything?

fringe orchid
#

That's very helpful, thank you for your input and responses. I definitely feel better about the situation.

keen cape
#

You showed a negative d100 result. Seems like it was cherry-picked and poorly represented.

#

that's all I have to say on the matter.

fringe orchid
#

If we had a TEST environment, I would provide more examples.

nova violet
#

Bard single target spell disablers are 1005, 1013, 1016, right

#

Obviously they could use a review haha

hazy viper
#

1008 too

fringe orchid
# nova violet Obviously they could use a review haha

The point I'm trying to make is that my Spell Disabler, what this whole thing is about. Has an advantage of 41. My SMR disabler, has an advantage of 88.

Just to remind those reading, these changes were made because SPELL DISABLERS weren't functional in these areas. This isn't about "like level" creatures.

hazy viper
#

I'd take 410 and 435 in a heartbeat

dusky hatch
alpine rampart
#

vs 10 levels above me my AoE warcries have about a 45-50%chance, it's about 80% for single target

hazy viper
# 
Cloudy wisps swirl about a niveous giant warg.
[SMR result: 224 (Open d100: 79, Bonus: 69)]
The wisps solidify into thick strands of webbing that tighten about its body!

Your enruned golvern katar suddenly lights up with hundreds of tiny blue sparks!
Cloudy wisps swirl about a heavily armored battle mastodon.
[SMR result: 183 (Open d100: 11, Bonus: 79)]
The wisps solidify into thick strands of webbing that tighten about its body!```
Greater Somnis + Blink Flares + SMR so hot right now.
fringe orchid
tough flame
#

Hmm... In this particular case, valravns are better at defending against the magical SMR than the physical SMR in part because they're magical creatures, right? Like you get a bonus against spells in your same sphere of knowledge?

fierce saddle
#

so, valv's I believe know 410 and have extra defense vs it, plus the difference of aoe vs single target, I'm fairly sure that accounts for the differences. (Leafi saying what I was about to say a half a second before gah!)

pearl creek
#

The conversation about hitting above level critters (re: ascension with 110+) reminds me of when they tweaked CM and TWC to scale better over 2x to help train to reliable levels of success. Has it been considered to introduce a similar mechanic for skills in magic disablers?

dusky hatch
#

Tricksy birbs

acoustic hull
nova violet
#

It’s wrong twice!

alpine rampart
fringe orchid
#

@alpine rampart That was with only 5 ranks too. Imagine if we had a guild, where I could earn 6 whole ranks.

violet ferry
#

I mean let's be honest, it's the play/net description, I'm surprised how right it is

tough flame
#

Technically, it suffers a -25 elemental penalty to all warding checks and that translates to non-elemental warding checks in different numbers after going through currency exchange? 😄

acoustic hull
#

I don’t really care if it changed but it clearly changed at some point

keen cape
#

expectations need to be realistic as well. there is no ez-mode button in a post-cap/ascension area.

fierce saddle
#

estild looked at it, it's always been elemental TD

keen cape
#

hunting alone is probably the most difficult part of those areas, because variance and you are often outnumbered.

fierce saddle
#

this just in though, documentation can be wrong

violet ferry
#

the Play.net is so wrong, we dont' even get in trouble taking potshots at it!

low mango
fierce saddle
#

I did have my first death in several months of hinterwilds just now, trying to play around with numbers on a disir... oops

nova violet
#

I mean I assume for kuon you have to say this guy is messing up my garden or whatever

hoary beacon
#

I found a problem with 715...

if you incant and do the curse stance based, its using the new mana costs, but if you use the mnemonic its costing the full 15 (for all curses)

fringe orchid
#

So, yeah, anyway. I'd appreciate having the same success "advantage" as Squares have against the same creature.

With similar training, in similar circumstances.

My expectations are that combat is balanced equally across the board without a clear advantage for a certain set of classes.

keen cape
nova violet
#

Well, 410 is aoe

acoustic hull
nova violet
#

If you had a single target mne disabler the number would be much closer to cheapshot

#

But also you clearly have combat maneuvers!

fringe orchid
nova violet
#

The class comparison here is a little confusing because you are a semi and have both these systems!

hoary beacon
tough flame
#

The real thing to baseline compare with would be using a single-target magical SMR attack and a single-target physical maneuver against a square creature that doesn't know that physical maneuver.

nova violet
#

I’m gonna follow you around the sanctum until I see you sweep something

#

Or WHATEVER you use

keen cape
#

I am not trying to pushback against anyone fyi. I just know that when you conduct experiments and post results, you have to be willing to be wrong.

#

otherwise it isn't science

fringe orchid
#

I don't know how a copy/paste of data can be wrong, but it definitely feels like you're trying to pushback.

I have this chance of success with option A.
I have this chance of success with option B.

keen cape
#

because it's a single sample and not representative of the spell when fully trained to utilize it

#

water lore is a factor

fringe orchid
#

It is a greater or lesser factor than Spell Aiming.

keen cape
#

it just might Not be a bard's best option anymore, if that isn't a training path

nova violet
#

I think I would ask specifically, is it your expectation that if you walk into a room with five valravns and 410 it should have a 90% per target to knockdown and stagger them

keen cape
#

I was asking for more data, not saying you were wrong.

nova violet
#

I’m not sure a combat maneuver can reliably do that!

low mango
#

Not everyone gets everything! Pures don't get weapon techniques, even if they meet all the training requirements!

fierce saddle
tough flame
#

I guess someone would need to go in there and Bullrush to find out.

nova violet
violet ferry
#

for my own clarity - it does sound like water lore is a factor but not an expected factor, e.g. you can train it to be better but the spell isn't designed with an expectation of it to be good at all, right?

keen cape
#

720 sucks! shockedpika No I mean it!

#

literally

fringe orchid
fierce saddle
keen cape
#

Sorcerers get all the fun self-cast spells

#

Torment, Implode...

hazy viper
#

Empaths before all others -.-

Sorcs and bards had their chance. To much angst.

tough flame
#

I don't care about the order of the reviews anymore. Just get them done so we can move on to Elite/Legendary Ascension!

fierce saddle
keen cape
#

NO. vampires are kewl.

#

just ask Kenstrom

alpine rampart
# 
[SMR result: 151 (Open d100: 93, Bonus: 6)]
You slam into the black valravn, who is sent careening to the ground!
   ... 35 points of damage!
   Hard blow to chest breaking ribs!
   Hard to breathe!
   The black valravn is stunned!
Your attack exposes a vulnerability in an eyeless black valravn's defenses!
Roundtime: 3 sec.``` seems pretty on par with my knock down + stagger move tbh
low mango
#

Here's a question. What do GMs consider the 'average' amount of experience a character should gain each day to remain in the middle of the pack, developmentally?

tough flame
#

What does "middle of the pack, developmentally" even mean?

nova violet
#

3000

#

Easy one!

#

Dust hands

low mango
#

Like, what's the expected time to gain 7.4m experience, or 1x cap?

pearl creek
# keen cape hunting alone is probably the most difficult part of those areas, because varian...

I think there is room for meaningful post cap growth that isn't asking for an easy button. Using my wizard as an example, he's capped on spell ranks so the only stats or skills I'm aware of are spell aim and water lore. Going 212 -> 262 ranks of spell aim appears to be +2~ish to the SMR roll. I personally don't find that large a post cap climb to be rewarding if it's going from 50-60% to 52-62% chance to land. Are there additional skills to help more, or are my expectations of post cap growth misaligned with the design?

I'd love to test this in a meaningful way, but with it only in Prod there's no repeatable and rapid skill adjustments I can use to do so. The formula is also not being shared. Best we have are to share the data points we can access for now and ask questions about the observed results.

edit: Not sure if I replied to the wrong post or it changed. Meant your comment about things getting easy

nova violet
#

Actually that’s a little high isn’t it

fierce saddle
nova violet
#

Should be 2100 a day

#

to stay on your recommended daily allowance of lumnis

alpine rampart
# 
>tack dis
You hurl yourself at a shining winged disir!
The bracers strike true, but the winged disir shrugs off some of the damage!
[SMR result: 45 (Open d100: 14, Penalty: 47)]
You fail to bring a shining winged disir down, but manage to scramble back to your feet.
Roundtime: 2 sec.
R>warcry cry dis
You stare down a shining winged disir and let out an eerie, modulating cry! 
[SSR result: 159 (Open d100: 86)]
A shining winged disir looks at you in utter terror! 
Roundtime: 3 sec.
R>
A shining winged disir's wings unfurl in a rainbow of color that brightens toward blinding white.  The forces restraining her fall away in shreds of crackling mana.
>tackle dis
You hurl yourself at a shining winged disir!
The bracers strike true, but the winged disir shrugs off some of the damage!
[SMR result: 77 (Open d100: 46, Penalty: 47)]
You fail to bring a shining winged disir down, but manage to scramble back to your feet.
Roundtime: 2 sec.
R>
A shining winged disir gathers herself and shakes off the fear.
R>
Having recovered from your previous assault, you once again feel ready to perform the Flurry technique.
R>warcry cry dis
You stare down a shining winged disir and let out an eerie, modulating cry! 
[SSR result: 2 (Open d100: -71)]
A shining winged disir is unaffected! 
Roundtime: 3 sec.
R>warcry cry dis
...wait 2 seconds.
R>warcry cry dis
...wait 1 seconds.
R>warcry cry dis
...wait 1 seconds.
R>warcry cry dis
You stare down a shining winged disir and let out an eerie, modulating cry! 
[SSR result: 166 (Open d100: 93)]
A shining winged disir looks at you in utter terror! 
Roundtime: 3 sec.
R>
A shining winged disir's wings unfurl in a rainbow of color that brightens toward blinding white.  The forces restraining her fall away in shreds of crackling mana.
R>tackle dis
The misty thorns whirl faster around your coraesine sword, their hazy silhouettes blurring the air around them.
R>
...wait 1 seconds.
R>tackle dis
You hurl yourself at a shining winged disir!
The bracers strike true, but the winged disir shrugs off some of the damage!
[SMR result: 94 (Open d100: 63, Penalty: 47)]
You fail to bring a shining winged disir down, but manage to scramble back to your feet.
Roundtime: 2 sec.``` squares are definitely easy mode every disabler just works though ![keksplode](https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/723434122374021131.webp?size=128 "keksplode")
coral spade
nova violet
#

God -47

#

You gotta take off those bracers!

#

I will bless them for you at no extra charge

keen cape
#

those are single target maneuvers, right?

nova violet
#

Come to zul logoth

keen cape
#

single target is not aoe, not the same

coral spade
#

Those aren't fair numbers, to be fair Renaden. You are a taking a huge penalty with no blessing. -25

keen cape
#

hmm, yes... bracers that you can never remove and have a big red button you can't push. I like it.

dusky hatch
#

Aren’t disir immune to knockdown anyway?

fierce saddle
#

yes

tough flame
alpine rampart
#

Even if the penalty was -22 in those logs the abilities wouldn't mostly have gone through

nova violet
#

Also they’re enormous right

ancient bay
#

When I think of xp gains, I tend to think of them on a per-week basis rather than per day. I have no idea what everyone else does but I assumed it's either Lumnis Only (4 years to cap IIRC) or maybe 50K a week (3 years, I think)

coral spade
nova violet
#

Although he’s not getting the “that guy too big your move no good” message

humble moth
#

Speaking of AoE, how about an AoE evoke version of 413 that's AoE, kind of like how MjS gets 217

nova violet
#

Anyway I’m not sure if I understand the subtext of the question

#

I am very confident that ascension hunting areas are not designed for the median player!

#

So the question of when does a median player get into hinterwilds is like

tough flame
#

Disirs aren't enormous. They're bigger than PCs, but they're like... I want to say 9 feet tall, maybe, or 14. (Pretty sure something in the Hinterwilds is 9 and something is 14, just can't remember which is which.) They're not gigas-sized, golem-sized, mastodon-sized, etc. and are actually sort of on the lower end of height in the Hinterwilds. 😄

coral spade
#

They are like 30 foot tall. They are angel gigas. They do the spin/fall/crush you

low mango
#

I thought they were the same size as Gigas

nova violet
#

Wait disir are gosaena’s gigas souls

#

Yeah see

#

They fall on you

violet ferry
nova violet
#

They must be big

#

That’s science

alpine rampart
# 
You lift your face as a wild cry bursts from your lips! 

A shining winged disir looks startled, but quickly regains composure.
Roundtime: 5 sec.``` plus last I checked this can't happen when you cast ewave
nova violet
#

Well it definitely can happen

#

Like 60% of the time actually going by the numbers posted

tough flame
#

Going on the test server to see if I've gone insane.

>
The winged disir is medium in size and about nine feet high in her current state.
The disir should prove to be a difficult challenge for you.```
And the angargeists are 13.
coral spade
dusky hatch
#

Disir aren’t a good test because ewave doesn’t work on them ever

alpine rampart
#

It's a failure to even warcry Ptolmey, like when you're training it, for some reason I still get them all the time even after having mastered the guild

nova violet
#

Yeah once again it is very funny that so much of this testing is taking place on creatures that are ELABORATELY IMMUNE TO DISABLING

violet ferry
nova violet
low mango
tough flame
#

Gigases are 30 feet tall.

nova violet
#

So you’re saying gigases die and then kindred sized souls pop out

coral spade
nova violet
#

Either that’s a fascinating lore tidbit or it’s just weird as hell

#

It could legitimately be either

violet ferry
#

not the weirdest thing by far

low mango
#

Leafiara impromptu justify why disir are so small right now

nova violet
#

Because gigases and kindred are the same genus

#

And the soul remembers

alpine rampart
tough flame
low mango
#

So, gigas are like camels, and they carry their extra fat weight in a giant hump?

nova violet
#

To be clear disir are not small

#

They’re just not gargantuan

tough flame
#

If we had gigas skeletons, those would be the same height as gigases, but they'd weigh almost nothing by comparison without muscle mass and fat.

coral spade
#

Also...when we say you can't ewave a disir? What do we mean by that? They can't even be hit? Cause...uh...

A shining winged disir is buffeted by the russet ethereal waves.
   ... 5 points of damage!
   Blow grazes right arm lightly.```
nova violet
#

He can’t be proned right

violet ferry
humble moth
#

Nobody can handle these unrealistic body expectations.... Geeze... first it was 6 feet, now it's 30 feet...

tough flame
#

I'll admit, though, I'm gonna laugh if Auchand pops in here and goes "oh, whoops" and suddenly disirs are 30 feet tall and you can't Disarm Weapon or whatever else people have been doing to them. 🤣

Edit: Wait, I just realized I have no idea if Disarm Weapon even height checks.

nova violet
#

I genuinely feel like they’re taller on live

coral spade
#

he already gave them a pass and gave them standard flare chance flaming aura, which we all know has claidh weighting 😉

nova violet
#

Because the paladins complained specifically

humble moth
#

you know he's over there writing notes

nova violet
#

That kneeling a disir doesn’t let you aim at their head lol

coral spade
#

I'll go check. I have a grizzled bounty anyway

tough flame
#

I just assumed the paladin complaints were more about gigases, mastodons, golems, and undansormrs.
Edit: And maybe wargs and hinterboars. I forget how big those are.

nova violet
#

Really disir should be like 32 feet tall because the wings should add some

#

Their feet don’t touch the ground!

dusky hatch
#

Wargs are horse sized

violet ferry
#

for parity he needs to release a hunting ground where the average size is < 1 foot, and nobody can hit those either

nova violet
#

Cerebralites and pixies are both that small hahaha

tough flame
#

I'd love to see Ascension Ilvari.
Gimme the Gulliver's Travels hunting ground. (First part of the story, obviously. ...maybe the other parts too eventually.)

humble moth
#

-20 aim size modifier for tiny things for ranged~

nova violet
#

There’s a specific note on the cerebralite page that they are too small to aim at

coral spade
#

uh..how do I check thier height?

nova violet
#

Oh god

#

Try assess

tough flame
#

APPRAISE.

nova violet
#

I can’t believe you walked into the pit and then tabbed out to ask

#

Jaysehn fears nothing

coral spade
#

oh its fine. i'm voln. I do this for a living. 9 foot in prime as well

night panther
#

The pit doesn’t spawn all that crazy you can discord and pit without an insane amount of risk

nova violet
#

Incredible

#

Good job folks

#

We solved the spell disabler review

coral spade
#

Pit is like perfect for Voln solo hunters. Not crazy spawn rate, everything is undead. Full AS bonus from S5 weapons and supremacy. Plus I have Voln armor. So...yeah. This is what I do.

#

This girls do NOT want to drop their feathers though. grr

low mango
#

Is that a euphamism? Have you tried buying them dinner?

coral spade
#

No...I need more disir feathers

violet ferry
#

I feel you and your weird thing with feathers might be in the wrong channel

coral spade
#

and they don't like me very much. They swipe left on me ALL the time.

alpine rampart
# 
The winged disir is medium in size and about one foot high in her current prone state.``` just gotta make 'em smol
hazy viper
#

Could disablers increase the chance of landing your off hand strike for TWC? Seems like anything that webs, binds, freezes, immoblizes the target should greatly increase the odds of the off hand strike.

fierce saddle
#

see I don't hunt the pit, I can if I must, but I have zero disablers that work on disir so I need to basically 711 them to death, and they are by far the most dangerous thing having super high bonus feints

coral spade
hazy viper
#

Have you tried groin kick?

fierce saddle
#

but I'll hunt disciples, mutants, underswamrs, and oozes all day, which very few people are good at, so it somewhat works out

coral spade
fierce saddle
#

yeah, like me just now playing around in the pit, two open roll feints, one killed me the other caused me to need to retreat, so yeah

nova violet
#

I was gonna say everybody is going out to show that their disablers are too weak and don’t work but unless their death messages pop up right afterwards I have to assume the thumb is on the scale a little

hazy viper
# 
[SMR result: 126 (Open d100: 92, Penalty: 10)]
Your kick connects!  The disir ignores the assault to her loins.

 ** Your rusalkoren platemail bursts alight with leaping tongues of holy fire at the winged disir! **
   Consumed by the hallowed flames, a shining winged disir is ravaged for 100 points of damage!
   ... 20 points of damage!
   Flames incinerate muscle tissue in neck exposing the trachea.  More than you ever wanted to see.
   The winged disir is stunned!
Roundtime: 2 sec.```
Nvm.  Angels.
nova violet
#

I’m not logged in though

fierce saddle
#

I do think 711 possibly needs 1 or 2 seconds of additional RT added on at max roll after the stagger change though

nova violet
#

Yes I remember somebody pointing that out before, angels are sexless

tough flame
#

719 is my disabler of choice against disirs. (On a sorcerer, anyway.)

dusky hatch
#

I definitely croaked my wizard the other day trying to play with 950+914 on a disir

violet ferry
tough flame
#

I did the disir Groin Kick clip before (#870437349388071012 message ), but the reason it doesn't work is because they're undead. You'd see the same results on lurks and the like.

fierce saddle
coral spade
hazy viper
#

I find groin kick to be good with the salty armor. To bad its wave is extra salty and is worse than bard's 410.

fierce saddle
#

my best CC:

>
An animated flayed gigas disciple looks around blankly.
An animated flayed gigas disciple thrusts with an ancient bone lance at a grizzled halfling bloodspeaker!
  AS: +677 vs DS: +650 with AvD: +35 + d100 roll: +100 = +162
   ... and hits for 70 points of damage!
   Solid strike caves the halfling bloodspeaker's skull in, resulting in instant death!

[You have completed this portion of your Adventurer's Guild task.]
A grizzled halfling bloodspeaker's eyes bulge as she stares toward the heavens, mouthing a gurgling prayer as she succumbs to death.
A subtle light fades from a grizzled halfling bloodspeaker's eyes.```
alpine rampart
# 
In an awe-inspiring display of combat mastery, a withered shadow-cloaked draugr engages you in a furious dance macabre, spiraling into a blur of strikes and ripostes!
Icy rage shining in her eyes, a withered shadow-cloaked draugr lowers one shoulder and barrels toward you!
With no room to spare, you block the attack with your ebon Faendryl pavis!
You manage to angle your ebon Faendryl pavis just right so that the shadow-cloaked draugr comes perilously close to the spikes on it!

 ** A spike on your ebon Faendryl pavis jabs into the shadow-cloaked draugr! **
   ... 30 points of damage!
   Amazing shot through the shadow-cloaked draugr's nose enters the brain!
You hear a sound like a child weeping as a white glow separates itself from the shadow-cloaked draugr's body and rises into the heavens.
Electric blue light pours from the draugr's eye sockets and erupts from her tattoos, leaving only a shadowy cadaver behind as animation departs a withered shadow-cloaked draugr.
A little bit late for that don't you think?```

aka stop hitting yourself
nova violet
#

Alosaka posted this earlier but I wanted to agree with him — now that web is awesome it really sucks when fire effects destroy your web hahaha

#

I can’t tell my thaum tome to not use fire!

fierce saddle
#

obviously should just buff the fire effect, make it like an immolate burn haha

low mango
#

It would be one thing if the Web/Fire interaction did meaningful damage, but it just doesn't. It's entirely a detriment

nova violet
#

I kind of think it should just give you a fire crit and not be removed but I would also be okay with not getting the fire haha

dusky hatch
#

But… it’s another flare! Flares are the best

low mango
#

I do love me some flares, but this is like a "get out of jail" flare. It's like having mana flares that give the monster mana to use against you

dusky hatch
#

Are things really surviving much past the first hit on a webbed target though? Like, at that point I feel like I’ve got pretty good control over the thing because it’s already taking extra damage from all the penalties cause by the web in the first place.

low mango
#

It's generally not a problem, just annoying. Particularly since web drops the mob's DS by a fair amount, and burning the web promptly brings it back up

dusky hatch
#

See, those are the exact kind of inter-spell interactions that I love and wish there were more of

coral spade
#

Making that interaction pay off with some big damage would be the goal i think

dusky hatch
#

Similar to 611+609 in a lot of ways

low mango
#

That's a voluntary interaction, which is great

alpine rampart
#

casting a fire spell at something you webbed is also a voluntary interaction to be fair, lol

dusky hatch
#

So is fire…kinda. Some are less easy to avoid for sure

low mango
#

It's usually caused by my weapon flares, which to be fair was voluntary when I got the flares, before this interaction existed

alpine rampart
#

that interaction with web has always existed, it's not something new

low mango
#

Has it? I thought it was introduced at some point

alpine rampart
#

Maybe not -always-, but at least a decade

lean folio
#

fire + web has been around a while. same for web + call swarm.

pearl creek
#

what's web + call swarm do?!?

low mango
#

It, like... makes the web webbier, or something. Since the spell came out I don't think I've ever actually seen the interaction take place

nova violet
lean folio
#

Bugs reinforce the web, yes. I've cast it a few times because it's funny to see. You can't cast it after the web has been set on fire, though.

nova violet
#

it can also happen with holy fire, or I guess if you chose the like three arkati that have fire crits

#

I think in all these cases it's probably not something you actually want

low mango
#

Maybe you accidentally webbed someone and you want to free them

nova violet
#

it's lame when it happens with your thaum tome because it happens while you are in roundtime haha

#

I like the idea of fire spells interacting with the web

#

I don't like it removing the status effect I worked hard to apply!

pearl creek
#

how quickly does the web drop on the fire flare? I thought it wasn't instant but can't remember the last time I've seen it either

hoary beacon
#

Phoen, Ronan, Laethe, Voaris, Voln, Eorgina and sometimes Zelia all cause fire

nova violet
#

make it a bonus, rather than a thing that will eventually kill me

low mango
#

Instantly as far as I know

nova violet
#

#mechanics message <- I posted a clip earlier because I thought it was funny but then as I thought about it more I was like, one of these days that is actually going to get me killed because I bought this fancy DR item haha

dusky hatch
#

Tome flares are a random element right?

nova violet
#

yeah, or something along those lines

#

a random critical type from a set which includes fire and cold haha

dusky hatch
#

Also why the heck does a tome do 5 damage on a 240 endroll.

nova violet
#

it's a book give it a break

low mango
#

Fire flares are bad enough without the "Oh and these might release something from web" effect

pearl creek
keen cape
#

why don't you like fire flares

dusky hatch
#

But also sometimes the fire will crit kill and it will make all the other times not so bad

keen cape
#

(I like fire flares)

nova violet
#

no it won't, because I kill like 100 mobs a day but I would like to die fewer times than that!

low mango
#

I love fire flares. But as far as I can tell they are the least effective elemental flares in the game.

nova violet
#

(all flares are the same)

low mango
#

Ignoring that we just established fire flares are the only flares that release mobs from webs

nova violet
#

technically that's fire DAMAGE that does that

dusky hatch
#

And trolls.

nova violet
#

which admittedly fire flares deal

keen cape
#

Fire is hands down one of the best flares (situationally)

nova violet
#

professor, flares, the same

#

fire is good against trolls I will admit

keen cape
#

Professor Flares is my rap name

nova violet
#

if it happens again I will track it more carefully!

#

I thought they were but I could be wrong

dusky hatch
#

We just need a capped troll ascension zone.

pearl creek
alpine rampart
#

when you light an area web on fire it doesn't go away, it stays there burning for a long time, idk why single target would be different

keen cape
low mango
#

That would require someone being in Sunfist

keen cape
#

yep

#

or a friend who is

alpine rampart
#

nah, just having an alt in sunfist

Sunfist gets a bad rap but it's one of the best societies for wizards and ranged users. Crit weighting on bolts is Fire and sigil of determination makes getting arms smacked not bad.

dusky hatch
low mango
#

Everyone left Sunfist for Voln when the new weapon skills came out : (

keen cape
#

nobody said it was preferred, equal, or fair. but it exists.

#

I don't personally believe that stuff should be any of those things, because Good is Dumb.

alpine rampart
#

I'm actually a pretty big sunfist fan on my ranged/hurling KS warrior, KS gets hit a lot, sigil of determination makes getting hit not a death sentence 'cause you can't fire your weapon anymore

keen cape
#

That's my Spaceballs quote for the month.

pearl creek
# nova violet if it happens again I will track it more carefully!

single target web is consumed on the fire proc.

You hurl a roaring ball of fire at a triton assassin!
  AS: +220 vs DS: +218 with AvD: +57 + d100 roll: +61 = +120
   ... and hit for 23 points of damage!
   Burst of flames char abdomen a crispy black.
The webbing around a triton assassin catches fire!
   ... 15 points of damage!
   Burst of flames to right arm toasts skin to elbows.
>
>l
 You also see a triton assassin (prone) and a triton warlock (stunned).
dusky hatch
#

I’d roll with osa troll pirates. That sounds fun. And thankfully ships are fireproof

low mango
#

Honestly the web/fire interaction is pretty low on my list of concerns and I'm still very happy with the Disable review

alpine rampart
#

... I'm not entirely sure that last one is true there considering how we raze them to destroy them

low mango
#

Break break: 1117 is a setup spell and should be considered in the review as well

dusky hatch
#

Well they survive meteors up until that point so it’s fine 😁

pearl creek
#

oh, was web/fire a concern? I just thought it was neat and didn't know if it consumed the web. No opinion either way

nova violet
#

yeah, to be clear, I am happy with the review, but I thought I would just surface this specific concern

low mango
#

Like, I didn't even know what some of these spells did before the Review, that's how rarely I used them. I didn't even know 135 was a spell

hazy viper
#

Its still not
No one can use 135 as is for anything remotely useful
If it got switched up to be SMR I could see it being used by rogues and rangers as an AOE blind to help with hiding

acoustic hull
#

Fire flares also melt 512 (root and 512x2 immobilize) ☹️ doesn’t even need to be fire damage from you

low mango
#

I am going to use 135 this hunt

limpid geode
#

the web/fire thing sure seems like an easy fix if they just made the fire take like 5-10 seconds to eat through the webbing. Give it 2-3 rounds of fire damage then the web is toast.

echo aurora
#

Fire web is one of the best parts of web (on flavor). Is it broken?

low mango
#

No, it still frees the target instantly. Flavor is g2g.

limpid geode
fringe orchid
# alpine rampart ``` >tack dis You hurl yourself at a shining winged disir! The bracers strike tr...

Went out to dinner, but let me catch up.

I appreciate the data point, even if it is cherry-picked and rigged to show a lower number than what the maximum could/should be.

I guess my question is, in this SPELL DISABLER thread, what is your goal in showing warcry and tackle? Are you trying to prevent any improvement to spell disablers, are you trying to somehow ask for improvement to those abilities in an non-related thread?

I'm just confused what point you're trying to get across.

alpine rampart
#

Even if you add a bless on those, they're still failures. You keep mentioning wanting the same advantages as square disablers, I'm trying to show they don't really seem that far off.

fringe orchid
#

I think +48 vs +88 is pretty far off, but we can argue the semantics of that to death if you really feel the need to participate.

reef condor
nova violet
#

I feel like the terminology here is very messy and I would note that multiple people have asserted that 410 is a square disabler

regal sonnet
verbal portal
hazy viper
#

Terrible is an understatement

low mango
hazy viper
#

It imparts blinded. It does help with EPB and perception checks

nova violet
#

It is supposed to apply disoriented too

low mango
#

15 damage AND disoriented?! How have I been sleeping on this

nova violet
#

lol

hazy viper
#

If it was converted to SMR, it might end up being a bit like 435 if you used a setup to setup the 135. Is the disorient new? That was never on the wiki.

nova violet
#

Blinding is actually pretty nice if you are going to follow up with a maneuver

low mango
#

You know what else helps with follow-up maneuvers? Web

nova violet
#

It’s AOE!

#

I’m not saying 135 is great lol

dusky hatch
#

It can also cause prepped spells to unprep

nova violet
#

I don’t even KNOW 135

#

So you can guess how much I use it

low mango
#

What does Disoriented even do? To the wiki!

#

Lol, the lore for 135. No wonder the Citadel fell.

nova violet
#

this is why when people are like "please make elemental versions of the good spiritual spells"

low mango
#

Honestly the whole idea of spells' mana costs correlating exactly with their number is kind of restricting

nova violet
#

I am like "how about you can have an elemental version of fasthr's reward"

#

I had to spend a spell slot on dispel invisibility

#

get your own spells

low mango
#

I would trade MnS for MnE in a billionth of a second

alpine rampart
dusky hatch
#

MnE is a boring circle. Its just buffs, and 435

low mango
#

I guess I would miss Fire Spirit

nova violet
#

fun homework assignment: identify the only two classes that do not have access to minor spiritual. are those classes historically stronger or weaker than the other classes? based on this, how OP will savants be when they come out?

fringe orchid
#

Will we see these spell changes on Test? I missed it if someone finally answered that question.

verbal portal
dusky hatch
#

It’s 7 mana now

low mango
nova violet
#

it costs way less now admittedlly

#

might be the cheapest aoe disabling spell

#

no wait 1602 is cheaper

verbal portal
dusty rivet
nova violet
#

wish fulfilled, 415 is now the SSR fasthr's reward

night panther
#

Move 415 current spell to 409

dusty rivet
#

I’d say that but I also want CS spells gone from minor circles as a whole. Cause they’re always bad for most of the reasons listed here lol.

reef condor
#

make 415 aoe smr disabler that applies vulnerability/weaken armor plz

nova violet
#

look what you guys enabled

pearl creek
#

I'm curious how much is considered done and final vs what is still being reviewed or discussed. Only wondering because it might be helpful to direct conversation toward topics still accepting feedback.

hazy viper
#

It was acknowledged that warding spells needed something to bring them in line with the effectivess of the SMR spells. Unless you train for CS the warding spells are worthless at cap and in the ascension zones for the most part. Hence why web was swapped to SMR

hoary beacon
#

were the "pending" further changes to 110 ever divulged?

low mango
#

CS spells aren't great pre-cap either, if you aren't trained up in them. Witness the MnS struggles

hazy viper
#

I think honestly all of the non-profession circles needed to be converted to a different formula

low mango
#

d20, let's go

dusky hatch
#

I mean, isn't SMR basically d20?

hazy viper
#

I'm really hoping they're turning 110 into the spiritual 410.

hoary beacon
hazy viper
#

Ya, Im an empath

pearl creek
nova violet
#

The only die sizes are d0, d1 and dn

dusky hatch
low mango
verbal portal
worldly sphinx
keen cape
pine charm
zinc trout
low mango
echo aurora
#

135 didn't go SMR?

hoary beacon
#

newp

limpid geode
#

It's still a work in progress so I'm not judging anything yet but for me, all the secondary circle spells need to be one of three things: 1) auto success 2) SMR 3) TD pushdown
A secondary circle spell that is CS with no TD pushdown is probably mostly garbage even for like-level hunting.

#

maybe if a spell like 135 had a really strong effect, it could see use combined with 340 to overcome the CS/TD issue but I'm not sold that casting 135 is a game changer even at 7 mana

low mango
#

I'll give 135 a go in the Rift, see what happens

limpid geode
#

personally I feel it's kinda weak that blind only gives -25 to SMR - seems really hard to land skilled maneuvers against your opponent when you're blind...unless all these enemies are like samarai ninjas or something

low mango
# 
Your spell lists:
Minor Spiritual...33
Ranger Base.......60```
Okay, nevermind. We'll come back to 135 discussion later :3
hoary beacon
hoary beacon
#

I will say, personal experience at least, that hunting feels more "active" now.. more mixing spells and best solutions to problems instead of "mash button until dead"

echo aurora
#

I mostly play a semi, I haven’t capped my pure (yet). But for folks that have, are you feeling like this review ultimately met its first goal of improving setups and disablers?

#

My personal experience is that my gameplay (on any of my characters) hasn’t really changed…

calm rock
brittle bane
#

i think the winners are 200s, 100's, and 900's who train heavily into the 900's... (if there was a test environment I would test to see at what point (spell ranks comparison) 912 gets better than nerfed 410 with 50 water lore)

nova violet
#

My gameplay didn’t really change in the sanctum. When I went to ascension areas I definitely felt that using disablers was necessary for survival and so the rt and mana changes, and the new SMR web, were extremely helpful and I relied on disablers for every fight

brittle bane
#

but... Auchand made it sound like there might be more coming in the form of post-cap growth and ways to strengthen spells.. I hope it includes lores and other magical skills and not just pumping 40 ranks of ascension spell aim for +1-2% chance... Something to mimic (with training) 6th guild rank... He also mentioned revisiting ascension critters and whether or not they should automatically shake off all sorts of conditions (which btw, is a separate conversation vs comparing profession balance and whether spells/psm 3 abilities land in the first place) 🤞

nova violet
#

I am fresh cap so mana changes are a pretty large improvement for me

echo aurora
#

Interesting… so what I’m hearing is some incremental improvements, but nothing that has functionally improved/altered game flow.

I feel like Melivn’s voice has been notably absent since the changes… I’d be curious if he is feeling improvements.

nova violet
#

I dont think that’s what I said!

echo aurora
#

No, you said mana gains have been a big improvement.

nova violet
#

I can’t really judge my gameplay pattern in ascension hunting before the review because I did not go to them, but I do use the disablers constantly in them

echo aurora
#

I didn’t hear you say it had changed your game flow. I imagine you can cast more now, or stay out longer? Or is there some other benefit?

nova violet
#

I certainly would not have used web in them before

calm rock
rotund nest
#

Overall it feels like incremental change to me as a 31mil+ post cap wiz. 410 was slightly nerfed, 912, 413 and 417 received boosts, and the other changes are more or less inconsequential to how I hunt. I can still steamroll stuff in HW, just like before.

The biggest impact was that I now use 912 regularly instead of 410. Sort of a wash from my perspective.

I think the changes probably have a bigger impact on lower experience characters.

No complaints from my end, other than a few minor bugs and such that I’ve noted. Everything more or less works like I think it should.

hoary beacon
#

so personal experience.. I'm mid-80s and hunt treekin (yes, that's underhunting, but I'm lazy and risk averse). Treekin break webs and are -extremely- knockdown resistant, and the druids have stupid high TD AND barkskin

prior to the changes, I would open with web bolt and hope that the web would just buy me a second or two to just pummel them with evoked 306 and keep them stunlocked from the crits. Swarms were extremely dicey. I never bothered with disablers because the mana costs were prohibitive and the chance of landing a warding spell was too low anyway

now, with warriors, I 212 into 214 and kill at my leisure

druids, I smr web to buy me a few seconds to 212 into 311 (which may take up to three casts due to barkskin, then unload with 306 e

swarms, 217 into holy symbol boosted 316, then 335

oh, and 320 being free (instead of 20 then refunded over time) is a very nice QoL change

low mango
#

As a mid 70s empath the changes are pretty impactful, especially in terms of spell success and mana cost. As a mid 90s Ranger I did not notice the changes in the Rift

tough flame
# echo aurora I mostly play a semi, I haven’t capped my pure (yet). But for folks that have, a...

Cleric:
216 is situationally really good, but that’s because I’m in the niche of super post-cap with extraordinary melee gear. 301 is no good solo anymore in the Hinterwilds, but still very strong in group hunting. 217 feels like overkill where I’d still rather cast 316 if it’s one or the other.

Empath:
212/217 are great now. The difference here, despite my empath having higher CS than my cleric, is there’s no SMR attack fallback plan, so going all-in on TD reduction is the right move.

Sorcerer:
413 and 715 are gamechangers, especially at lower levels where dropping >40 TD can jump from a low chance to hit to easily guaranteed.

Wizard:
Out with the old (410), in with the new (912).

native sedge
#

EMC used to be a part of how 413 worked (it was a TD push down on the application). Is the change to application going to negate this or s there a thought on an additional changes

hazy viper
tough flame
azure frost
#

Did 715 change at all?

And did the bug with 1001 get fixed? The one where if it hits a dead target it drains 80+ mana?

nova violet
#

715 changed but we haven’t gotten the patch notes for it yet

fierce saddle
#

715 is half changed, the cast versions are updated but the curse verb versions are not yet

hoary beacon
#

I'm guessing you're hunting things that break bind to make 216 more attractive than 214?

tough flame
#

Some do, but also:

216 has 30 TD pushdown, so even on the ones that don’t break bind, 214 wouldn’t be as reliable.

I open with 316, which can bind, but immobilization doesn’t force something into offensive and actually stops it from going into offensive on its own, so I might need the followup stancer.

hoary beacon
#

huh.. I thought bind forced stance

tough flame
#

It has a similar-but-not-identical effect to forcing stance, in that it gets rid of EBP DS, but the stance isn't actually changed. So if the creature breaks the bind, they could still be in defensive at that point (unless the break was berserk).

hoary beacon
#

gotcha.. that's in line with whtat I was thinking

night panther
#

Web is pretty good on mutants in Hinterwilds now, they don't seem to shake it that regularly. Web into 309 works well

nova violet
#

After the SMR formula change web is a big glow up, definitely a spell that went from “never cast” to “often cast” for me

hazy viper
#

Yeah, as an empath, web is the best improvement for me at the moment in the hinterwilds. It's not effective against mobs over lvl110 without a big SMR boost like somnis sleep, but works great against everything else.

low mango
#

216 might be a good alternative for targets that can't be webbed for whatever reason

fierce saddle
#

casual mention to to how nice the 320 QoL change is to just keep it up all the time, not worrying about needing to hit something or finish waiting for the mana to come back

hazy viper
# 
Cloudy wisps swirl about a stunted halfling bloodspeaker.
[SMR result: 192 (Open d100: 9, Bonus: 80)]
The wisps solidify into thick strands of webbing that tighten about her body!
Roundtime: 4 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second.
R>
The flaming aura surrounding you lashes out at a stunted halfling bloodspeaker!
[SMR result: 287 (Open d100: 88, Bonus: 125)]
   ... 45 points of damage!
   Right leg aflame.  When the smoke clears, there's nothing left.
The webbing around a stunted halfling bloodspeaker catches fire!
   ... 30 points of damage!
   Extreme heat causes a stunted halfling bloodspeaker's left arm to expand and snap.  That must hurt!```

I do like when this happens though.
broken knoll
#

Hot topics like this one are interesting. The discussion is neat until it crosses the line. People missing from the server are because they got banned. Maybe someone wisely took a break, but that isn't the common answer. Like in life it's not the last thing, it's every step up to that moment.

oblique coral
#

Atleast my wizard can now reliably mana leech in north HW, just takes a 413 then 516 vs before I would have to run back to fjalla and I assume some wizrds couldnt even leech at all anywhere in HW...

tough flame
#

The true secret sauce is putting 516 into your 950 so you try to grab from every creature at once and get a CS bonus if you have Fire lore.

(I don't have Fire lore, but I do have 516 in my 950. Duskruin made me realize it worked, then the idea played out fine in other areas, so I just left it.)

oblique coral
#

Also, 519 evoke would be great lifesaver if you can ward

empty mantle
broken knoll
#

Web was really good, but 18 mana so glad that is working out at the 5/10 mark

tough flame
coral spade
fringe orchid
fringe orchid
verbal portal
broken knoll
#

Best of luck to you in your next endeavor Alastir. I didn't know your cleric. You can always come back

echo aurora
#

I mean -- I feel like a lot is swirling that I just don't understand at the moment.

oblique coral
#

It does seem like MA must be at an all time low with al these "Only 1 account" people

#

(It definitely scares me when I hear about ppl cancelling accounts though)

broken knoll
#

Attrition is not always a negative, but you have to factor in a lot of categories for sure.

fringe orchid
# echo aurora I mean -- I feel like a lot is swirling that I just don't understand at the mome...

I'm pretty sure there are still updates to come. The 700s and 1000s for example.

I think it's pretty clear, at least to me, that we shouldn't expect any real changes when it comes to disablers, at least at cap.

They're going to sometimes hit (400s), and will still mostly be shaken (Any stun/bind and in a lot of cases web). But they're cheaper and faster now.

The only real disabler is RT still and ... at least when it comes to the 400s, they've reduced effectiveness of it.

hazy viper
# 
You utter a light chant and raise your hands, beckoning the lesser spirits to aid you with the Searing Light spell...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a behemothic gorefrost golem.
A brilliant white ball of light forms just above the top of your rune staff.  It quickly grows in size until you lightly jerk your staff, causing the radiance to instantaneously spread throughout the entire area!

The radiant burst of light engulfs a behemothic gorefrost golem!
  CS: +506 - TD: +422 + CvA: +25 + d100: +99 == +208
  Warding failed!
  The bright light sears the golem for 10 damage!
   ... 10 points of damage!
   Searing bolt of energy strikes the gorefrost golem, scorching a wide swath of flesh!
   The gorefrost golem is already blinded.

The radiant burst of light engulfs an immense gold-bristled hinterboar!
  CS: +506 - TD: +405 + CvA: +25 + d100: +17 == +143
  Warding failed!
  The bright light sears the hinterboar for 10 damage!
   ... 7 points of damage!
   Light burns to the gold-bristled hinterboar's leg.
   ... 5 points of damage!
   Flash burns to eye momentarily blind the gold-bristled hinterboar.
   The gold-bristled hinterboar is stunned!
You blinded an immense gold-bristled hinterboar!

The radiant burst of light engulfs an immense gold-bristled hinterboar!
  CS: +506 - TD: +402 + CvA: +25 + d100: +46 == +175
  Warding failed!
  The bright light sears the hinterboar for 10 damage!
   ... 15 points of damage!
   Dazzling arc of energy traces blackened path across the gold-bristled hinterboar's back!
   The gold-bristled hinterboar is stunned!
   ... 5 points of damage!
   Flash burns to eye momentarily blind the gold-bristled hinterboar.
You blinded an immense gold-bristled hinterboar!
A bloody halfling cannibal is forced out of hiding.
The radiant burst of light engulfs a bloody halfling cannibal!
  CS: +506 - TD: +378 + CvA: +8 + d100: +100 == +236
  Warding failed!
  The bright light sears the cannibal for 10 damage!
   ... 50 points of damage!
   The halfling cannibal is sliced open neatly by a brilliant beam of plasma!
A monstrous, too-wide smile spreads across the cannibal's face as he collapses to the ground, dead.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.```

The potential is there for some solid hits if you can get a high enough end roll.

This is from test so I can't wombo it with auto success 217.
Spell Lists
  Major Spiritual....................|              40

Spell Lists
  Minor Spiritual....................|             160

Spell Lists
  Empath.............................|             103
#

Good success on everything but skalds.

limpid geode
#

Well it's been a week now since this was all announced - including the changes to 611...but to this point 611 remains unchanged and no staff has mentioned it. Seems a little odd to me? Would love to wake up my druid and see how he feels but am waiting for the changes to be implemented...

low mango
hazy viper
#

Golems are damage sponges

tough flame
hazy viper
#

Im interested in making 135 work because it does a lot. Blinded, disoriented, plasma damage, and reveals hidden targets.

#

Especially if TWC left hand strike ever gets updated to be improved by some of the negative status conditions like blinded.

echo aurora
#

I do want to point out that this just happened to me. An ethereal triton psionicist points a clawed finger toward you! A crackling whip of energy lashes out at you! CS: +448 - TD: +380 + CvA: +5 + d95: +45 == +118 Warding failed! ... 4 points of damage! Eye gouge, that hurt! You are knocked to the ground! You are stunned for 3 rounds! The residual psychic energy from the attack surrounds you. And, I only had about 15s in stun, whereas a few weeks ago, it probably would have been like 45s. While I wouldn't characterize that as game-changing, it certainly is very much appreciated and a huge QOL benefit.

dusty rivet
#

I'm pretty sure a round is 5 seconds. That crit is always a 3 round stun. If you were stunned for around 15 seconds nothing changed.

nova violet
#

the crit being a rank 2 seems like the change, right

#

it should have been 4 before randomization?

dusty rivet
#

that part is a little interesting. i wonder if the crit padding can actually stop the additional +1 rank down to 0.

#

for people who might not get tikba's statement; 1210 causes a base crit of rank 3 + (margin / 15) according to estild (i think it was, a gm either way), since it's 118 that puts the base crit at 4 according to the formula. non-AS attacks always (or at the very least, almost always. dunno if any exceptions) get a randomization of +/- a crit rank. with padding on normal attacks we just know it can't reduce the final crit under 1, but i guess it's possible crit padding could make the scaling +1 crit go to 0. or maybe it's "base 3 crit" is something like 15 DSW or whatever and then we factor in the crit after. either way, it's not survival training.

that's just the best possible result we know of for getting hit with 1210 (the base 3 crit randomized to 2). Well, best possible other than it hit the eye. But nothing to do with the cap on stun as far as i know. It wouldn't change the crit rank i because that would also reduce damage you take and i imagine that's out of scope for the cap on debuffs / survival bene.

fiery wing
hazy viper
#

My use case is for a blink weapon

dusky hatch
fiery wing
#

oh, hm, I forget about that... I'm so used to INCANT <SPELL>... I'll need to try that 😈

echo girder
#

Not sure if its been pointed out yet or not, but mana flares are still working on the old mana values. e.g. 615 charges me 5, but returns 9 on a t3 mana flare. 320 charges 0 but returns 8 on a t2 mana flare.

dusky hatch
dusty rivet
#

i haven't tried with 609 but you could try casting it at an item. but i just reveal hidden things with 635

#

oh wait i misread that i see what you mean. but the answer is never both casting the single target 😄

random hill
#

212/217 now seem to be giving a flat -15 TD, no bonus for SL:Summoning anymore. Mistake, I hope? (BUGged in game.)

night panther
#

BUGged this in game but channel dispel doesn't remove the Slowed debuff from 504 or 1602. Seems like the spells are applying a physical debuff rather than as a magic spell (like how 1211 applies Confusion as well as Confused (PSM3 physical debuff) - you can dispel this since the Confused is only there because of the spell Confusion. If you get hit with a CMan that applies just Confused, you can't dispel that, since that's the physical debuff).

Being hit with either puts "Slowed" in the Debuffs listing, but not "Slow" or "Pious Trial". Shouldn't Slow from magical sources be applying a spell effect so that we can dispel it?

Think this needs to take the 1211 approach. Make 504 apply "Slow" (spell) and "Slowed" (debuff), 1602 apply "Pious Trial" and Slowed (debuff) and if you dispel the spell, it removes the debuff

verbal portal
dusky hatch
#

It appears as though Aspect of the Spider is not currently providing the 25 bonus it was previously:
[SMR result: 140 (Open d100: 85)]
Have BUG'd

echo aurora
#

Does the spider aspect bonus apply when the web is cast, or only when spider aspect is active (AoE)?

dusky hatch
#

At one point it was a flat 25 bonus to the single target SMR version. From logs on the 4th:

[SMR result: 209 (Open d100: 86, Bonus: 25)]```
#

Hrm..weird. It worked this time:

Cloudy wisps swirl about a bloody halfling cannibal.
[SMR result: 215 (Open d100: 94, Bonus: 25)]
The wisps solidify into thick strands of webbing that tighten about his body!
Cast Roundtime 2 Seconds.```
dusty rivet
#

if the target had a 25 bonus to defending for some reason it would just show 0 (or nothing in this case)
at least, i'm 99% sure that's how it works. not sure what would give you a penalty/them a bonus in that case

dusky hatch
# 
Moving forward, a bloody halfling cannibal gets too close to the rippling, sticky web!
[SMR result: 137 (Open d100: 43, Bonus: 25)]
Dozens of silk threads spin into action, ensnaring a bloody halfling cannibal!```
Seems okay on AoE too. Maybe the valravn had some penalty
unreal matrix
#

I haven't played much with the changes, but I do know that Call Wind (912) is still costing 12 mana when the notes for it says it was reduced to 8.

#

Also casting 519 as EVOKED still costs 19 mana instead of the 5 mana it shows it was changed to.

limpid geode
coral spade
#

What happened with this web?

Moving to attack, you get too close to the rippling, sticky web!
[SMR result: 0 (Open d100: -41)]
The web turns away harmlessly from you.
  AS: +707 vs DS: +487 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +91 = +351
   ... and hit for 105 points of damage!
   The boreal undansormr is stunned!
With a final, explosive breath, you pull your sword back to a ready position.
Roundtime: 1 sec.```
dusky hatch
#

What's strange about it? It appears to me that he just open rolled a failure in your favor?

acoustic bough
#

The web turns away harmlessly from you. Never noticed that. Don't get webbed much either.

nova violet
#

That’s the normal messaging for an open web missing you

coral spade
#

oh is it? thanks. I normally don't even deal with them. thanks!

nova violet
#

Yeah I mostly see it when bandits are swinging at me lol

pearl creek
#

I know a few spells specifically mention future changes, but has there been any additional detail on direction or timeline of those changes? Are spells other than those specified as pending additional changes under any form of review for updates?

covert pewter
alpine rampart
#

I wouldn't really expect disarm to have height checks... like to be engaged in combat with you in theory their weapon has to be in stabby distance of you

keen cape
#

disir grow a foot taller every time someone says Auchand in this channel. Muahahaha.

#

oh wait, nevermind, it's just their ears growing longer. Which ear? Disir.

covert pewter
#

...

echo girder
#

Disir what? Disir thing dats now a foot taller!

fickle maple
#

how sweet. it's like we're getting our just disirts.

sleek inlet
sleek inlet
pseudo fractal
#

I know it's a bit niche and I may have missed it but will slippery mind continue to work against 118 now that it's a SMR spell and not a CS spell? it also slips 212/217 even though the CS component was removed.

fierce saddle
#

I don't think it would still work on 118 as it's nolonger a warding spell, if it still works on the auto-success spells then they probably still use the warding system underneath, but updated with all the auto-success fomula stuff

vital umbra
# sleek inlet This should now be resolved.

I know this is super niche, but I noticed yesterday that 912 was costing a ton of mana on the swan boat in Return to Black Swan Castle. Seems to work fine for OSA though.

pearl creek
night panther
#

That doesn't seem like it should be possible anymore

pseudo fractal
#

Yea i was asking from the caster perspective that critters I cast 118 and 212/217 are still shrugging them with slippery mind not sure if that's intended or not but thanks for providing the snipper so I don't have to

random hill
# sleek inlet This should now be resolved.

Thanks! I also ran into this:

Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an infernal lich.
The magic of your spell can find no purchase, overwhelmed by an infernal lich's presence.
Cast Roundtime 2 Seconds.```
Are liches level 120? Immune for some other reason? Or another bug?
nova violet
#

non-ascension, non-bounty boss creatures must be within 10 levels of you to be affected

#

it's only against ascension or bounty bosses that you can affect them up to 120 with the failure chance

#

that lich must have just generated with one extra level haha

#

I think that's probably literally the only enemy in the game where that can happen to a capped character

dusky hatch
#

Liches are immune to spells under level 10.
I’m curious if this might be at play? Is it calculating with mana cost rather than spell level?

limpid geode
#

there's a different message if you try to cast a low level spell at a lich - the one he posted looks like the one for the level requirement for disabler auto success instead

nova violet
#

it could be, but that is the specific message for "this guy is too high level to hit with your autosuccess spell"

dusky hatch
#

I was scrolled, should’ve just waited for Tikba 😁

random hill
limpid geode
# 
You gesture at a fallen crusader.
  CS: +534 - TD: +410 + CvA: -2 + d100: +98 == +220
  Warding failed!
The fallen crusader's movements slow to a crawl!

 ** Numerous sigils along your glowbark staff abruptly flare to brilliance!  Coruscating crimson energy surges from each, twining into an echo of your last spell... **

A swirl of temporal energy spirals lazily outward from you, drifting through the area in shimmering billows.
The dull golden nimbus surrounding a fallen crusader suddenly begins to glow brightly.
  CS: +534 - TD: +410 + CvA: -2 + d100: +35 == +157
  Warding failed!
The fallen crusader's movements slow to a crawl!
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.```
I've noticed this a few times this week but tonight I was watching mana when casting 504 to slow down crusaders...seemed to be 1 mana except when my sigil staff flared and then it was taking 4 mana for some reason? The messaging does seem to indicate that the echo'd spell is the open cast version which may or may not be a bug?

It's also still not dispelling crusaders' haste buff as it was before but that's a separate issue.
zinc trout
brittle bane
#

has anyone seen a 912 vortex do anything?

covert pewter
#

Yes.

valid comet
#

Any idea what's up with 519?

Beaver Enthusiast Mitch just went northeast.
>
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a deathsworn fanatic.
Wisps of black smoke swirl around  for a moment, then dissipate.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
(Forcing stance down to guarded)```
amber fern
#

is that a real title?

valid comet
#

It is on Shattered.

amber fern
#

ah ok (agreed, I remain amused)

glacial fern
#

and its dam good

valid comet
#

So back to 519....anyone else having issues?

#

I'm not the only one on Shattered that isn't able to cast like we used to:

image.png
lavish saffron
#

I am not sure if it happened from the review, but I noticed today that 517 costs 17 mana per orb cast now, when previously it was 1 mana for the additional casts.

Admittedly, It has been a long time since I charged something.

glacial fern
#

Has been 17 for initial cast at gem to turn into orb and 1 mana to refresh orb as recently as a month or so ago. Seems like a BUG

verbal portal
lavish saffron
night panther
# 
You grunt a short phrase of dwarven incantations as you prepare the Immolation spell...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton brawler.
Wisps of black smoke swirl around  for a moment, then dissipate.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
You grunt a short phrase of dwarven incantations as you prepare the Immolation spell...
Your spell is ready.
>evoke brawler
You gesture at a triton brawler.

 ** Your orase runestaff glows brightly for a moment, consuming the magical energies around the triton brawler! **
A series of purple lines suddenly appears on a triton brawler's face, quickly racing towards the center of his forehead before detaching and dissipating in the air.
A hazy film coats a triton brawler.

Wisps of black smoke swirl around  for a moment, then dissipate.
Cast Roundtime 2 Seconds.```Yeah 519 is not working at all. 😬 Happened on other tritons too (warlocks, assassins) so it's not just a weird brawler slippery mind-related thing.
rare mulch
#

Where Sigil staff's negatively effected by the changes
I haven't paid attention to mine

limpid geode
#

testing some other things with sigil staff on my wizard

  • 504 still the same as last night: costs 1 mana unless there is an echo flare, in which case it costs 4 mana
  • 413 costs 2 mana except when there is a dispel flare, then it costs 5 mana
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a fallen crusader.

 ** Tendrils of coruscating crimson energy lash out from your glowbark staff toward a fallen crusader and cage her within bands of concentric geometry that constrict as one, shattering upon impact! **

The very powerful look leaves a fallen crusader.
The white light leaves a fallen crusader.
A hazy film coats a fallen crusader.

A dark shadow passes over a fallen crusader.
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.```
#

actually I think the 413 cost I'm seeing is variable depending on which spell is dispelled maybe? it just dispelled 101 and only cost 1 mana instead of 2

limpid geode
#

also finding the spell cost of 912 variable when there is a dispel flare from the sigil staff

zinc trout
unreal matrix
night panther
#

Yeah I got Incant and Evoke going and nothing looks awry. Thanks Sleken.

dusky hatch
#

Been playing around with reformatting the SMR/SSR results to display more like the standard combat resolutions:

SMR skill: +116 + Bonus: +20 + o100 roll: +64 == +200
[SMR result: 200 (Open d100: 64, Bonus: 20)]

Dozens of long thorns suddenly grow out from the ground underneath a behemothic gorefrost golem!
SMR skill: +105 + Bonus: +12 + o100 roll: +66 == +183
[SMR result: 183 (Open d100: 66, Bonus: 12)]

SMR skill: +60 + Bonus: +22 + o100 roll: +13 == +95
[SMR result: 95 (Open d100: 13, Bonus: 22)]

A thrashing viridian bramble stippled with crimson-tipped barbs suddenly sprouts from the ground and begins to thrash about violently!
SMR skill: +118 + o100 roll: +73 == +191
[SMR result: 191 (Open d100: 73)]```
image.png
#

I'm sure there are lots of hidden calculations that factor into those numbers, but even a few extra pieces is something I think could help normalize it a bit. I left in the original output for comparison

#

"SMR skill" just being the result - roll - bonus

pearl creek
#

I appreciate this

valid comet
dusky hatch
covert pewter
night panther
# 
Your spell is ready.
You gesture.
A gust of wind tugs at your sleeves.  Suddenly, a fierce wind rips through the area, scattering everything in its path and making it difficult to remain standing.
[SMR result: 112 (Open d100: 19)]
The wind knocks a spectral triton protector off balance and he falls over!
Whipping winds swirl into a careening vortex.
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.
>
A windy vortex dances across the ground, raising dirt and debris as it moves.
A windy vortex darts toward a spectral triton protector in a gusty assault!```💪
dusty rivet
#

i definitely skimmed and read that as "busty assault" at first.

rose ore
#

[Help] Sairai: "Have the gods changed recharging to take 17 or 18 mana per cast on the orb? used to be 2 mana per cast."
[Help] Sairai: "Yeah its taking 18 mana per cast...

royal kite
#

I'll chime in and say it used to be ONE (1) mana per additional cast and then at some point it just changed and was 2 mana per cast. So when fixing it, hopefully they can figure out the prior issue as well and we can get back to 1 mana per additional cast.

pearl creek
#

This thread quieted down - should we keep posting about issues with spell disablers? What sort of changes are still getting discussed?

Completely different question, why is 912 8 mana but 512 is 10? 912 seems to do a lot more 🤷‍♂️

north idol
limpid geode
#

Quite a few bugs have been reported here - and many have not been acknowledged - but I assume there is a lot of hard work going on behind the scenes.

covert pewter
#

It's a little hard to keep track of them, to be honest. I try to correct them as I see them.

pearl creek
#

is there anything we can do to help consolidate? I honestly forget if I was bugging all of them in game too, which may be the better approach?

covert pewter
#

I think a running tally would be helpful, but that's just speaking for myself.

#

I think most of the spells I announced are okay now that Call Wind was re-fixed.

pearl creek
#

I keep checking for ones specific to paladin stuff - infusing still uses the old mana cost for how many charges I can put into my weapon, and the smr converted spells cast worse via infusing in my bonded weapon than open cast. The lore perk is supposed to make them better!

My wizard and cleric had a few, but I'd need to go try them again tonight to check if they're fixed and I didn't notice.

To the consolidation point, I'll check with a few other folks about using the wiki in some way for it. I might simply be skewed by the paladin stuff and there's nothing left 🙂

acoustic bough
#

Not to be a broken record but 611 is still 11 mana and 3 seconds!

vital umbra
#

Has there been any update to the status of bard spells?

pearl creek
#

I'm going to start adding things I can confirm as still an issue to Tikba's wiki page for spell disabler updates. A single source for updates and bugs seems more useful than trying to run a second consolidated info spot in parallel. Will be a bit for me, but will try to skim the thread too

hollow coral
#

Echoing what Dinaden said... also really hoping that the mana cost reductions get updated for 1625/infuse.

limpid geode
#

could also be an envoy message here pinned and updated regularly

my list:
611 not updated
504 no longer dispels fallen crusader haste buff
504 mana cost is 4 when echo'd by sigil staff
413 mana cost varies whenever cast with a dispel flare

echo aurora
#

If only stars worked…

night panther
#

Being hit by 1602 or 504 now applies an un-dispellable Slowed effect, whereas you could previously dispel either of them. Not sure if this is intended

worldly sphinx
#

Releasing a spell should cost less mana than casting the spell. After the disabler review, that is not always true. Releasing spell 135 costs 8 mana. Casting it costs 7 mana.

zealous dew
#

so out of curiosity. Why are Vvrael immune to effects of magic like quake, call wind and stuff like that. But they can be hit with flares. I would think that certain things that aren't direct magic impacts could still hit them like some of these disablers

dusty rivet
#

honestly i think anything immune to magic being immune to any conjured item like that doesn't make a lot of sense. "oh this rock is magic" is weird. like i just took the flu vaccine but if you shot a water cannon of flu virus at me it's probably gonna sting. being immune to 519 makes more sense (since you're trying to conure it directly to/on them) than being immune to a fireball you made 20 feet away hitting them in the face.

zealous dew
#

yeah just some things I have trouble understanding when it comes to magic immunity. Like 917 causes the ground to burst out underneath a target. The magic manipulated the ground to cause it to hit them. The object hitting them isn't magical but a result of what the magic triggered. It's no different than a player swinging their axe at a destroyer at that point.

#

I guess it's all just a coding limitation at the end of the day. easier to block out all magic instead of flagging each spell differently. Adding a flag of isIndirectMagic == true on all the creatures is probably a lot of coding to update across the board. heh... and more to it than just that

night panther
#

I think magic immune is a bad mechanic that needs to go away in favor of resistances

zealous dew
#

yeah I think it would be better if they were just setup with KS

dusky hatch
#

610 is a funny example because it can't be cast at vvrael, but if you prep/cast it in the room it will grab them just fine. So what I'm saying is we should have a way for 917 to create an environmental effect that persists - and then allow 912 to knock them into it 😆
(that would actually be a fun interaction...)

night panther
#

Immunities aren't fun. "Oh, I literally can't damage this. K" and walk away. Great stuff

verbal portal
acoustic hull
#

Just go get someone that uses physical damage types to kill it for you then highfive and call it teamwork. Easy and fun!

night panther
# 
  Remaining Stamina Points:    207
Polychromatic tentacles wrap about you as you chant the phrase for Mental Dispel...
Your spell is ready.
>
You gesture at a glimmering boltstone apparatus.
You focus your spell in an attempt to disarm a glimmering boltstone apparatus.
After some mystical tinkering, you manage to extract a boltstone from the apparatus.  Deprived of its focus, the apparatus crackles ineffectually before crumbling into dust.
Cast Roundtime 2 Seconds.
>
>stamina
  Remaining Stamina Points:    187```1218 (Mental Dispel) is costing me 20 stamina as a Mental Acuity monk. That means it's being treated as a 10 mana spell. Not sure if an issue with dispel, the apparatus, or it's working properly and I just don't understand. But dispelling an area web cost 10 stamina, which reflects a 5 mana cost properly
solid cosmos
#

Someone mentioned this in #mechanics. Can Kai's Smite get some RT reduction as a setup?

dusky hatch
#

Probably not the right venue for that suggestion, that's a UCS attack not a spell (but I support it anyway!)

nova violet
#

okay here is the punch list from what I've seen in this thread (so some duplication of other posts)

  • 611 costs 11 mana and casts in 3s
  • Infusing disablers in paladin bonded weapons uses the old mana cost for how many charges can be infused rather than the updated mana cost
  • SMR converted spells are less effective when cast via paladin weapon bonding compared to open casting
  • 504 costs 1 mana unless there is an sigil script echo flare, in which case it costs 4 mana
  • Finding the spell cost of 912/413 variable when there is a dispel flare from the sigil staff
  • 517 costs 17 mana per orb cast now, when previously it was 1 mana for the additional casts.
  • 504 no longer dispels fallen crusader haste buff
  • 504/1602 Slowed cannot be dispelled
  • dispels cost their original mana cost against apparatuses in the Hive
  • 950 uses spell level rather than correct mana cost

not exactly bugs:

  • Bard spell mana costs and cast times are not updated (this is known since it was rolled back after release)
  • Slippery Mind dodges the new SMR/autosuccess spells despite saying it only works against warding spells(unclear if this is intended)
acoustic hull
#

Do we care about 950 mana costs in that list

nova violet
#

I missed that if it was posted earlier

acoustic hull
#

The calculated mana cost seems to just be based on the spell level

fierce saddle
#

does blink cost mana when it casts spells? if so probably also broken, but that's not one I could test

pearl creek
#

pin it?

tough flame
#

Are all the spells that were intended to be updated updated? They don't seem to have touched 210 to step it up to auto-success like 703. Wait, never mind, I was thinking of 715, heh.

dusky hatch
#

110 was also awaiting some love

tough flame
nova violet
#

Not all the spells are updated but I deliberately did not list things that we were told aren’t done because that isn’t really a bug haha

pearl creek
#

I'd also accept honoring incant preferences

nova violet
covert pewter
tough flame
rotund nest
#

417 still doesn’t dispel flaming aura like it previously did

vital umbra
#

Bard spell mana costs and cast times are not updated

amber fern
#

I don't know if 612 is considered scope in this review?

cunning wigeon
#

So is ewave still being dialed in, or is this where it is supposed to be? Spirit shroud is still pretty bad.

acoustic bough
#

612 hasn't been specifically mentioned that I've seen, but I expect it to get the stagger treatment and possibly reduced mana cost. But that might just be wishful thinking.

nova violet
cunning wigeon
#

Like 40% hits

nova violet
#

Against what

coral spade
#

Im surprised. Mine was pretty good vs HW stuff

alpine rampart
# 
An enormous hideous troll king is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves, but is unaffected.
[SMR result: -403 (Open d100: 21, Bonus: 28)]
A mammoth dark red roa'ter is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves, but is unaffected.``` Not sure if these are normal results for the energy shield emergency ewave, but just thought I'd share in case
fierce saddle
#

Yeah most of those invasion creatures are "immune" to ewave (they were immune to the old one too) , so they have huge bonuses against it which representthat immunity, those troll kings are also lvl 120, so yeah it's not gonna work on them with the current formula either

coral spade
#

I wouldn't even look at invasion creatures for balance concerns. They are by definition outside the lines of normal play

cunning wigeon
#

Makes no sense than an item that casts an ewave analogue and was marketed in part towards people who can't get 435 is now looking at your spell ranks

#

Cannot imagine that nerfing this item was an intended effect of a spell disabler review.

nova violet
#

I don't think the shrouds are checking your spell ranks or you would be doing a lot worse

#

can you post some clips to compare to jaysehn's results?

cunning wigeon
#

Yeah, next time I go back there

covert pewter
echo aurora
#

I feel like stance impacts my animalistic spirit headdress... I should check that.

#

Here is animalistic spirit headdress against triton fanatic, no disablers and fresh spawn, in defensive stance. >wave my headd at fan Sweeping one arm out in a tight arc, you gesture forcefully at a triton fanatic with a sinuous twisting motion, lifting your battle shield in readiness. Rippling waves of night black energy flow over the surface of your willow headdress, pooling in your eyes and blurring your features with those of a grizzled direbear. Clouds of thick night black mist enshrouding your frame and making it appear bulkier, you rear up and tilt your head back with a deafening gnar, your sharp teeth exposed menacingly. [SMR result: 9 (Open d100: 44)] A triton fanatic seems unphased by the frightening display. Night black motes rush away from you, leaving your features back to normal. Oof. Here it is in offensive: >wave my headd at fan Sweeping one arm out in a tight arc, you gesture forcefully at a triton fanatic with a sinuous twisting motion, lifting your battle shield in readiness. Rippling waves of night black energy flow over the surface of your willow headdress, pooling in your eyes and blurring your features with those of a grizzled direbear. Clouds of thick night black mist enshrouding your frame and making it appear bulkier, you rear up and tilt your head back with a deafening gnar, your sharp teeth exposed menacingly. [SMR result: 146 (Open d100: 59, Penalty: 1)]

cunning wigeon
#

Don't think stance messes with this, but I dunno, I only use the login stance for logging in.

calm rock
zealous dew
#

Also you have the Greater Rhimar weapons that are sold at DR that have 435 that could be impacted by these changes. The blizzard option is 435 with ice or cold...

This crossbow can be CLENCHED to activate a Blizzard, which causes damage and knocks targets down.  It has been used 0 out of 6 times for today.
fiery wing
azure void
#

I think that thaumaturge tomes have a 435 while incapacitated effect as well.

echo aurora
night panther
#

I think something might be up with how Slowed and Song of Tonis interact with each other. I just got hit with 1602 by a triton fanatic and even after waiting out the Slowed effect (since it can't be dispelled anymore), my RT was 4 seconds firing my longbow even with 1035 up. Stopping and re-singing Tonis took me back to 1 second. Have had this happen a few times in the last week or so. Will keep an eye on it to see if I can confirm that's what's causing it.

Edit: yes just happened again. Slowed messes up tonis until you re-sing it. And, come to think of it, the other day my wizard (who also hunts Atoll) wasn't getting any benefits from 535 until I stopped and re-cast it. I bet it was 1602 (Slowed) doing that.

sleek inlet
echo aurora
#

Estild, are 410/435 more or less effective now (post changes) for a player with 0 ranks?

#

I suspect the concern is that the pay items are now less effective than when purchased, not less effective than they are for other players comparatively.

pearl creek
humble moth
#

I've love to see a stat of how many players have over 100 MnE ranks. I bet it's like, <10

dusty rivet
#

415 build rise up

humble moth
#

Ohh, right, there was those few months when 415 double casted and was good

night panther
#

I don't even know who's using 410 now except bards who have no AOE disabler alternative. Wizards have 912 and no reason to ever cast ewave again. Sorcs have 709. Not many warriors field-casting I don't imagine but they have better AOE disablers available. Magic rogues kind of took an L.

dusty rivet
#

I get that it’s a difficult position to keep it relatively balanced for 10 rank people and pures without just going back to guaranteed massive success but it doesn’t feel great for a 75 rank pure to be as good with it as a GS3 rogue.

humble moth
#

And I never considered casting 410 on my bard due to MnE hindrance... And there was going to be the AoE disabler in the bard review. Maybe that'll come back.

night panther
#

The people still using 410 are the people who probably never updated their bigshot routines after the review

humble moth
#

As a wizard, it's super frustrating to see a minor circle spell to be even marginally on par with a primary circle spell with a higher mana cost.

night panther
#

I hope my post about Slowed effect (at least via 1602) messing up 1035 + 535 (and maybe 506? probably 506) until they're re-cast doesn't get lost lol it's annoying. I'll BUG in game too.

echo aurora
#

I do wish that the disabler review had gone a different tact. I just feel like it marginally changed some things and routines for some people, but didn’t do what I had hoped.

humble moth
#

Says the ranger which won all the things :p

pearl creek
#

It also brings us back to requiring excess ranks in a minor circle for efficacy, which was the whole problem with CS disables in those circles.

night panther
#

212/217 and 413 are huge wins for warding pures, that can't be overstated. 410 got nerfed pretty hard.

echo aurora
amber fern
#

the mana reduction and 2 sec cast time is a very welcome benefit

dusty rivet
#

I mean 912 is arguably the biggest glow up on the review….

night panther
#

I already used 912 all the time so I keep glossing over that but yeah it's even better now

pearl creek
#

118 was a big win too for people imo

night panther
#

There's a lot of great stuff that came out of it. 410 just hurts a lot because it's been a near guaranteed room control for five professions for as long as it's existed, lol. Bards are the only ones without anything in the kit to replace it, really.

echo aurora
#

It certainly made some marginal improvements for some people, and gave them an alternative tool(s).

humble moth
#

Time to undust the bard review; bring back MnM and that neat 1009.

#

Or was it 1010? Whatever the AoE was.

night panther
#

You keep listing Empath base spells lol

humble moth
#

But I'm right, what are you talking about?

dusty rivet
#

Arresting aria was 1011 of if I remember took the old peace slot

acoustic bough
#

Rangers are the only class that can 3x survival to reduce the disabler effects by an additional 5% along with the mana and cast time reductions I would say they did come out on top. Just need the rest of the disables to get the reduction. Like vertigo and the rest of the mental disables...

echo aurora
humble moth
#

By the rounding though, 5% is only going to help you by 1s when you're hit with a disabler for 20s.
Number rounding is weird

#

By the math it sounds big. But in application, I'm not sure how material it will be for survival

acoustic bough
#

Here I am still getting hit for 60-90s disables in the atoll.

humble moth
#

I thought the intent was disablers maxing at 30s now?

echo aurora
night panther
#

Vertigo will do that to you easily

acoustic bough
humble moth
#

Have you reported when that occurs, since it was counter to intent?

#

Or, bugged rather

acoustic bough
#

I have not bugged, as my understanding is they're not done with the review. I have mentioned them in here a few times though.

echo aurora
#

Which spells though? I’ll keep my eyes out. I’ve found mind jolt has been capped.

acoustic bough
#

Pretty sure the mental spells haven't been touched. The ones the psionicists cast

dusty rivet
#

I havent tested vertigo but if you mean 1210 that wouldn’t be capped. Well in theory the damage debuff should be but if you get hit with a 10 round stun that’s not a debuff that’s just you got trucked.

acoustic bough
#

<progressBar id='1219' value='100' text="Vertigo" left='22%' top='0' width='76%' height='15' time='00:01:17'/>
<progressBar id='1602' value='100' text="Pious Trial" left='22%' top='0' width='76%' height='15' time='00:01:29'/>

dusty rivet
#

Rekt.

echo aurora
sleek inlet
sleek inlet
sleek inlet
limpid geode
#

thank you for the updates, Estild - the hard work behind the scenes is appreciated

worldly sphinx
verbal portal
#

Is 210 not considered a disabler? Just realized I don’t see it in the list of changes?

limpid geode
#

210 and 214 are both in desperate need of help and I hope they will be a part of future changes

covert pewter
echo aurora
#

I was corrected. It did a massive amount for improvements to being disabled.

royal kite
verbal portal
fringe orchid
humble moth
acoustic hull
coral spade
#

Just because there was some convo about ewave and items - my spirit shroud

A series of ghostly, pulsating waves moves outward from you.
[SMR result: 67 (Open d100: 18)]
A roiling crimson angargeist is buffeted by the russet ethereal waves, but is unaffected.
[SMR result: 135 (Open d100: 88)]
A withered shadow-cloaked draugr is buffeted by the russet ethereal waves and is knocked to the ground.
   ... 10 points of damage!
   Light blow to back.```

I dunno.  Those are critters in defensive. Walked in and hit the macro. That seems like a reasonable result for level 110+ foes
rare mulch
#

Very disappointed in the 410 changes, oh well...I'll make some lemonade I guess

coral spade
#

To be clear, this is just an item. I don't really have an opinion on the spell via a caster

dusky hatch
#

IMO bards are the most affected by 410 nerf. I think it was a justified change, and overall I'm okay with where it landed - but on bards specifically it does have a little flavor of the 711 nerf. By that I mean the nerf hit before the review (assuming it even remotely resembles what we've seen thus far on paper, which it may not) which might've softened the blow because they would've had a primary circle AOE disable

night panther
#

My bard misses old 410. My wizard and sorcerer will never care

pearl creek
#

1615/1630 were both updated to stagger vs always giving rt. Are they being considered for mana cost reductions and rt reduction as well?

night panther
#

335 disables things if they don't die can it also have its mana cost/rt reduced

north idol
#

Is it intended for the treekin druids and warriors to essentially be immune to disabling effects? They shrug off ewave and call wind effortlessly. Not a big deal, the critters are not that tough, although getting to the red forest is a bit of a PITA. I did not hunt them before the review, so no clue if this is new or not.

low mango
cunning wigeon
calm zenith
#

In addition to the details previously mentioned in the initial pins ( #1191064189981163611 message ), the following updates to the Ranger Spell Circle are now live:

Sounds (607)

  • Now uses the standard auto-success level check.
  • Now uses the standard debuff duration cap (60 seconds for creatures, 30 seconds for players).

Tangleweed (610)

  • May now also be EVOKEd to summon the damaging version of the spell.

Breeze (612)

  • Reduced mana cost to 7 for AoE version.

Call Swarm (615)

  • Will now be properly mitigated by all forms of Resist Nature (620).
calm zenith
night panther
# 
A crackling whip of energy lashes out at you!
  CS: +448 - TD: +406 + CvA: +2 + d100: +85 == +129
  Warding failed!
   ... 21 points of damage!
   Dirt gets in your eyes as you are pushed to the ground.
   You are knocked to the ground!
   You are stunned for 10 rounds!
The residual psychic energy from the attack surrounds you.```This gave me 50 seconds of stun, I thought it was capped at 30 😭
limpid geode
#

weird that ranger spells are live but no mention of 611?

night panther
#

Mestys post said "in addition to the details previously mentioned in the initial pins" which did include 611. I don't have a ranger, but I imagine 611 got updated?

vital umbra
#

It did.

limpid geode
#

thanks for the clarification and update - looking forward to testing that out 🙂

fierce saddle
#

I don't believe "rounds of stun" was affected by anything in the review, I've been pretty curious if survival training would help with stun duration but so far I haven't seen an answer to that one. But sense "rounds of stun" are determined typically by critical type and rank + a little random, it's very different than a spell resolution effect.

The only stun effect that was reduced/limited was 706 I believe, which never did rounds and was calculated by warding margin, so that could be addressed by the new rules.

Now I do think rounds of stun should be addressed, (30 second max and all that) as there's a pretty large disparity between people whom can break or do stuff in stuns and those who can't, but I think that would be a change a little outside of the "spell disabler review" overall.

vital umbra
cunning wigeon
fierce saddle
#

yeah I think so too, I just think it might be beyond the scope of the current things, as "rounds of stun" is a very old old system, and touches a lot of things

acoustic hull
#

Adding RT is as old as it gets but that was changed

echo aurora
#

Could we rename the auto success system, since it’s a misnomer and not really auto success?

acoustic hull
#

I think it’s got a great acronym

echo aurora
#

For what?

acoustic hull
#

The ASS (auto success system)

limpid geode
#

warding with 214 is ass; can we get it converted to ASS? too much?

echo aurora
#

Dang. That was fast and funny

acoustic bough
#

ASSUS - Auto Success System Unless Ascension

echo aurora
#

So was that.

tough flame
#

You crazy if you expect auto-success on an immobilization spell. 😛
Edit: 611 with high Ranger Base ranks notwithstanding. It's technically not auto-success!

nova violet
#

can we convert 317 to an autosuccess spell

night panther
#

You mean it's not? 😏

nova violet
#

not for me 😔

keen cape
#

Do we need an adult in here?

#

No?

#

ok...

fierce saddle
fierce saddle
acoustic hull
#

What is a replacement if not a change?

fierce saddle
#

I guess what I'm saying it yes stun would be awesome to be under the new systems and such, they probably need to create a replacement for "rounds of stun" and then be able to apply that in a LOT of places. That's a fairly large overhaul and project.

rough swift
#

Yeah, they didn't change "adding RT", they just made a new condition nearly identical to it, called it Staggered, took the RT infliction wholly away, and then put Staggered there in its place.

I presume this was because changing the existing system was untenable for reasons I don't pretend to know, but it doesn't seem much of a stretch to imagine that rounds of stun would have to be handled the same way. But perhaps not - it might be too intrinsic to the critical tables.

rotund nest
vital umbra
#

I'm hoping that's an oversight!

rotund nest
#

Hope so. My disir killing strategy usually involves some dispelling

coral spade
#

Spell cleave can still nab it

coral spade
#

I'm 100% wrong. Spell cleave is no longer dispelling flaming aura. Its showing a failed cleave result, despite the hit, every single time its reduced to only having flaming aura left. Definitely not dispellable atm

night panther
#

Getting hit with anything that applies a "Slowed" effect now (1602, 504) makes Song of Tonis and Haste both stop working even after the effect expires. You have to stop + re-cast the spell to get the RT reduction effect back. Can this please be fixed? It's annoying and mana-intensive. I expect it also applies to 506, but I don't use that spell

pearl creek
#

Iirc it should drop/stop 506. I have no idea how it interacted with Tonis though

night panther
#

Yeah Tonis remains up when you're hit with Slowed but until you stop/recast it, it no longer lowers your RT. 535 also.

sleek inlet
fierce saddle
#

I think the problem is that it's not actually ending 506 so you can't just recast it, you have to manually stop 506 then recast

night panther
sleek inlet
#

This should now be resolved.

visual dune
#

Unbalance (110), Calm (201), and Silence (210) have been updated as part of the Spell Disabler Review.

Unbalance (110)

  • Converted to SMR
  • Roundtime converted to Stagger effect
  • Removed self-cast bonus
  • Reduced mana cost to 5
  • Reduced castRT to 2
  • Updated previous lore benefit of a bonus to success margin to the following benefit: "Provides a chance to affect a second target in the room. No additional mana is required when it triggers." This benefit is similar to Elemental Strike (415)'s lore benefit.

Calm (201)

  • Applies Calmed effect to target
  • Removed self-cast bonus
  • Reduced castRT to 2
  • Unchanged: mana cost remains at 1.

Silence (210)

  • Applies Silence effect to target
  • Removed self-cast bonus
  • Reduced single target mana cost to 3
  • Reduced single target castRT to 2
  • Reduced AoE mana cost to 6.
  • Unchanged: AoE castRT remains at 3.
dusky hatch
# 
Ephemeral twists of silver-hazed mist wreathe your forearms as you murmur a serene phrase for Unbalance...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a savage fork-tongued wendigo.
Bands of spectral mist ripple and surge beneath a savage fork-tongued wendigo!
[SMR result: 220 (Open d100: 28, Bonus: 103)]
   ... 15 points of damage!
   Sprained ankle!  The fork-tongued wendigo won't be running soon.

The spectral mist suddenly shifts to a behemothic gorefrost golem!
The calmed look leaves a behemothic gorefrost golem.
Bands of spectral mist ripple and surge beneath a behemothic gorefrost golem!
[SMR result: 107 (Open d100: 14)]
   ... 5 points of damage!
   Strike to head dizzies the gorefrost golem.
The golem is knocked to the ground!```
neat!
nova violet
#

wow unbalance SMR with stagger

#

very interesting

echo aurora
dusky hatch
# echo aurora What’s the difference in your smr between 610 and 110? 
[SMR result: 122 (Open d100: 12)]
The viridian bramble lashes out violently at a brawny gigas shield-maiden, dragging her to the ground!

You gesture at a tattooed gigas berserker.
Bands of spectral mist ripple and surge beneath a tattooed gigas berserker!
[SMR result: 179 (Open d100: 86)]
   ... 20 points of damage!
   Strike to foot!  The gigas berserker hops around dizzily on other foot and falls.
   It is knocked to the ground!
   The gigas berserker is stunned!

The spectral mist suddenly shifts to a grim gigas skald!
Bands of spectral mist ripple and surge beneath a grim gigas skald!
[SMR result: 139 (Open d100: 43)]
   ... 20 points of damage!
   Arm jerked painfully upward.
   The gigas skald is stunned!
The skald is knocked to the ground!```
echo aurora
#

So SLS or SLB increases chance of second target with 110?

nova violet
#

it would presumably be SLS since the previous lore bonus was SLS

dusty rivet
#

415 is 100% for second target at 100 ranks if memory serves.

dusky hatch
# 
  SMR SvD: +90 + Bonus: +37 + o100 roll: +29 == +156
The viridian bramble lashes out violently at a withered shadow-cloaked draugr, dragging her to the ground!

You gesture at a withered shadow-cloaked draugr.
Bands of spectral mist ripple and surge beneath a withered shadow-cloaked draugr!
  SMR SvD: +77 + Bonus: +63 + o100 roll: +47 == +187
   ... 20 points of damage!
   Strike to foot!  The shadow-cloaked draugr hops around dizzily on other foot and falls.

The spectral mist suddenly shifts to an eyeless black valravn!
Bands of spectral mist ripple and surge beneath an eyeless black valravn!
  SMR SvD: +63 + o100 roll: +75 == +138
   ... 30 points of damage!
   Strike to arm spins opponent like a top.  The black valravn is stunned.
   It is knocked to the ground!
   The black valravn is stunned!
Cast Roundtime 2 Seconds.```
Getting pretty solid rates of secondary target at 85 SL:S
nova violet
# 
Bands of spectral mist ripple and surge beneath a lithe veiled sentinel!
[SMR result: 144 (Open d100: 44)]
   ... 10 points of damage!
   Jarring blow to the veiled sentinel's shield arm.
The sentinel is knocked to the ground!
Cast Roundtime 2 Seconds.
(Forcing stance down to guarded)
>
[mathbrain2: SMR preroll: 100]```

pretty good bonus, rank 2 on a 144
echo aurora
nova violet
#

hmm, I feel like this spell rules

dusky hatch
#

Rangers pulling away from this review with another SMR is pretty crazytown, ngl

nova violet
# 
You gesture.
Bands of spectral mist ripple and surge beneath you!
[SMR result: 82 (Open d100: 60)]
   ... 10 points of damage!
   Jarring blow to your shield arm.
You are knocked off your feet!
Roundtime: 3 sec.
Cast Roundtime 2 Seconds.```

this is an interesting outcome
echo aurora
nova violet
#

SMR bonus seems extremely good, looks like min 3 RT so you always gain a second, unbalance crit rank seems pretty random, I think this is pretty nice

tough flame
#

Disappointing not to see TD pushdown added to 210; 212/217 in the same circle seem to just be better since, despite only significantly hindering spells instead of guaranteeing they can't be used, they're also on the auto-success system while also having a slew of other perks.

The 110 change, on the other hand, looks real good.

echo aurora
#

Leafiara, for 607, we noted in rangers that putting it under the new ASSys makes it less useful for 10-15 levels above than before. Do you have the same issues with 212/217?

visual dune
nova violet
#

glad I could help by hitting myself hahaha

#

217 is much more useful than it has ever been because it was useless previously

tough flame