#Conflict

2508 messages · Page 3 of 3 (latest)

inland quest
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please haha

keen pelican
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Best way to refine your tactics, honestly.

lusty kettle
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Don't discord and hunt, folks.

eager charm
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I HAVE COME TO REPORT A CONFLICT WITH JAYSEHN FOR BEING COOLER THAN ME AND NOW WE ARE ENEMIES

nocturne delta
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Pffft! You really brought it over, LOL!

void tinsel
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Devastating!

eternal needle
inland quest
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tikba holding up a picture of jaysehn and a world of warcraft death knight they're the same picture

eternal needle
wary raven
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That crossed into players advocating consequences for other players and you have to question their motivation for doing so.

muted shell
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That is the best parts. I remember the early years of Crossing into shadows and how a lot of it did go off player RP. Eyes were everywhere. NPC's popping up just to sit on the porch and BS sometimes. Those times was the funniest and the best fun I have ever had in GS. I am good with conflicts. Love them. Like to cause them ect. We all misstep and aren't perfect. I to AGREE with Yardie. It was well said.

stark ginkgo
# muted shell That is the best parts. I remember the early years of Crossing into shadows and ...

I think one thing Cross into Shadows did well, and perhaps NxNW and the Global Team's heavy handed efforts in general are failing at, is some wiggle room in between "sides" and a sense of GM neutrality.

Cross wanted to destroy the empire, he had a very very good (in the sense of being in character and role playing not in a moral sense) cadre of players aligned with him but not all the players who were anti empire aligned with him or felt the need to or even felt it was morally correct to do so. Talador invaded the landing, and a good chunk of baronies supported it off screen but a good chunck did not there was room for empire players to go both ways...there was room for them to defend the landing or stand aside and neither were objectively correct choices or even correct in the meta sense. Too many players have adapted and started playing the Meta instead of playing their characters in that arena in my opinion.

If your going to roll out conflict you must at least pretend to be neutral and should give outlets for both sides, and time permitting, perhaps multiple outlets.

muted shell
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I think not just conflict but if you are going to roll-out a story period there should be time for player to get fully involved. What ever happened to pick your adventure? Most of the Storylines are very one sided anymore. Makes it hard for players like myself and many others to be able to play how they want. That is where we are losing I feel the Grouped RP for the community. Just my 2 cents worth. I love watching player RP and Story's evolve when a good GM ran story is going.

stark ginkgo
# muted shell I think not just conflict but if you are going to roll-out a story period there ...

Yea I think a narrowing of scope leads away from the "a place for everyone" and I think Tikba hinted at that being a concern as a player and its a valid one. I doubt we will ever be there but its worth voicing the concern.

In some ways I think it escalates player tension because you end up sticking characters in situations they maybe wouldn't go to but there is nowhere else to go so you have this square peg jamming itself into the only hole available....there might be a phrasing problem with that statement but...I am going to leave it.

velvet field
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I think a perceived lack of neutrality in stories is definitely part of things. If Tom is a character opposing something an NPC is doing in a storyline, and the NPC makes a speech about how Tom is a terrible wastrel out to ruin the town, it may be absolutely fitting for that NPC to IC do so but there's often a wider problem. For whatever reason some people will take the NPC's intent as also the OOC intent of the GM behind it and in this case take it to mean the GM also thinks Tom is a terrible wastrel. It's very easy for that to bleed over out of the game and puts Tom's player in a situation where they may be receiving flack for "not following the story correctly". That's the sort of conflict no one really needs or wants.

eternal needle
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Sometimes, though, the NPC's intent is the OOC intent. Sometimes there is a story to be told and the information in that story is meant to be fact. I don't think that doesn't mean that there isn't room to respect someone's character who feels differently and in turn treat that player with respect, but there are ways to nuance disagreeing with a plot point that don't come off as disruptive.

An example that comes to mind was when we saw the the Tristar of Daesavreh chasing Enomna and Henshor. There was one character who was certain their punishment was because it was a Faendryl who married a human. Three times different NPCs told them that wasn't the case to the point where it was difficult to engage with the NPCs because they were focused on rebuffing an incorrect plot point. I think after the first time it was explained it wasn't the case, that character could have MYCHAR'd "I still think that has something to do with it" as a way to alert the GMs that they still felt like the whole truth of the situation wasn't on display. But the way they chased a direction the story was obviously not going felt disruptive and disrespectful to the narrative.

stark ginkgo
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You know when terms like "disruptive" were thrown around in the west I started doing word clouds to see which PC's were really talking the most, and found that the ones doing the claims of disruption were often still somehow also the ones that made the most noise in the room during an event. I say this to say disruptive is a very subjective term, based on very nebulous concepts. Because if character x was disruptive it was not enough to actually disrupt the player doing the complaining from chewing all the scenery. I also looked into which were making the most "aggressive" actions and again it wasn't the party being called disruptive....this is an incredibly well logged game....

I saw a character be disruptive in another instance and was teleported to Ta'vaalor....If a room has a GM, and some don't, its the GM's job to control those elements not the players job to pile on and continue piling on a year later. We can suggest that certain behavior be policed better of course, but be careful because an objective application of that may not just target other people.

You will never find Dendum at the top of a list of most noisy in a room (unless its a discord room!) but I doubt you can say he is never disruptive.

I believe in that particular instance, which I was not a part of at all....I did see a GM clarify intent in discord after the fact and we should have faith they will do so....and eventually move on.

eternal needle
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Is there no responsibility on us as players to be observant and respectful to the time and craft that the GMs have put forth to tell a particular story?

There's a story about red crystals and how they help create warmth during a cold winter. Three PCs are asking the NPC foreman of the red crystal mine details about how these crystals can be gathered, price points, who else buys them regularly. Another PC asks don't red crystals turn people into Ilvari? The GM run NPC responds and engages, no of course not. (It wasn't something they had scripted or planned for but they still engage) The PC continues to ask about how the red crystals relate to the Ilvari. Over and over and over again. Is that not reasonable that it could seem disruptive? By volume they may not be talking as much as the other characters but they are potentially taking more time.

stark ginkgo
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I have expectations of players of course. I have hopes of others players actions of course. I have a dream that people are always honest about their intent here on discord.....but its not my job to enforce that if a GM is in the room or in the Discord.

eternal needle
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Wouldn't shared expectations as a community help us feel more comfortable operating in a space that allows for story-driven conflict? I don't think it's about policing anyone but I do think there's a benefit to accountability if it can be done so from a place of respect.

lusty kettle
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It sounds like here we are talking about expectations for players. As a GM who has been on the side of NPCing when situations like that have happened, it's not easy in the moment to "enforce" it when you're on three NPCs and in a room with 30+ people. It's disruptive to HAVE to enforce/police it in the middle of an event, too.

stark ginkgo
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Sometimes as a GM your going to have to or players are going to do it and your going to increase player vs player friction by failing to do so....disruptive or not.

lusty kettle
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So while it's not YOUR job as a player to enforce, it is your job as a player to think about how your behavior may be impacting an event, and self-police.

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There's not always a way to enforce it. If they aren't breaking rules, a law, if my NPC has NO authority, what is the solution?

stark ginkgo
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I think you can redirect, reinforce, or close the argument or reach out in an OOC capacity.

lusty kettle
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I think the point is that we do try to redirect, reinforce, or close the argument and the person continues.

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Which means you then have to go into an OOC capacity and it's even more disruptive. So once again, the point is that players should be considering THEIR behavior when they come to events.

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Obviously we will alwyas have disruptive people. All we're talking about here is that yes, I think shared expectations as a community as a good thing.

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I have a meeting so I'm about to go radio silent on you for a bit.

stark ginkgo
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This conversation has been full of talks about reaching out to the player....though of all the people here I have only ever seen Stormy actually do that personally.

I completely understand best case scenarios but you need to employ a toolbox when best case isn't what is happening.

gilded shale
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Well, speaking to the example of the Daesavreh, the reason things were derailed was because the GMs kept having to try to redirect.

Over and over and over and.. ∞

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I think the only thing being asked is that we, as players, take a moment to do some self reflection on what we're adding to GM-driven narratives, especially in large groups. I haven't gone so far as to create a word cloud or anything, but I'm sure I've been just as guilty sometimes of failing to do that

torpid pagoda
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I can certainly do my part to try to listen more and assume motivations less. That's all I can ask of my fellow players.

I feel that at this point, staff have understood my request enough that I'm confident that my concerns were heard.

inland quest
# eternal needle Sometimes, though, the NPC's intent *is* the OOC intent. Sometimes there is a st...

This honestly was the biggest argument for a session zero or more explicit OOC discussion to me — I am not an expert at reading the tea leaves of what things the NPCs say should be understood as GM direction, and when people would suggest that something was actually coded GM messaging, sometimes the GM would then pop in and say it wasn’t, and sometimes I feel some pressure to “go along” when it doesn’t really feel like something Tikba would do. I try to fall back on turn taking and giving oxygen when that happens (I wouldn’t push a point IC repeatedly if I were redirected) but more clear communication feels like it would help here.

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It has also happened that an NPC will pop up and say something and then people will say “we are obviously not supposed to do what that NPC wants” which is definitely not clear to me!

honest meadow
grave badge
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Specifcally on disruptive play topic (and how to manage it): I've often run large TTRPG sessions at conventions, some in local FLGS, and have decades of experience in running private game groups between 8-12 players. In 30 years, one thing has remined consistent: there are always going to be some disruptive players. The, "Well, this is what my character would do..." crowd, who refuse have any respect for co-operative storytelling / shared world perspectives. Typically a very "main-character" point of view. I don't envy GS GMs who have to try to manage story events, because the only solution I've ever found is: 1) ask nicely, 2) ask firmly, 3) tell them to stop, 4) warn them, 5) remove them from the game. Amplify that by the number of player characters interacting in some of the GS stories, take into consideration the players are now customers, and it's pretty easy to understand why it's not feasible to drop that responsibility on the GMs running events. Conflict and storytelling and hurt feelings happen, but being intentionally disruptive to the point folks have to pause the story to deal with a persons behavior shouldn't fly. Bring back thump for NPCs and slap a 10 minute timer on it. Then it can be sorted out with a referral after the event.

stark ginkgo
honest meadow
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The level of roleplay has definitely evolved, including the nuances of characters, their motivations, affiliations, etc. But we're definitely on the back end communicating to another just in case one of us misses something in the heat of the roleplay.

inland quest
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I dunno maybe the NPC should just clock you sometimes

honest meadow
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Honestly I jumped in just to post that gif.

gilded shale
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Sproink has entered the chat

stark ginkgo
gilded shale
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Disclaimer: I'm not saying Elysani is Sproink (though maybe she should be! what's one more shared identity!)

honest meadow
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I do have the stamp!

gilded shale
inland quest
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I recognize that I am wayyyy over on the FAFO side of this philosophical continuum. One of my favorite things that happened at the Palestra trials, for example, was Xociral randomly blasting somebody for no real reason just because Xociral is basically unstrung

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But for OOC stuff I would agree, the whisper first is best

stark ginkgo
compact pagoda
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The definition on what is disruptive appears to vary from person to person and often seems to have a longer leash for some than others. I wasn't there, so I have no idea how disruptive this person we're all not naming was. But I have seen beloved people in the community be what one could easily call disruptive at events and people be silent and seen others with less cred be equally disruptive who can then never overcome that point and just walk away from the game bc they're scarlet lettered from that moment. So talk of disruption almost seems pointless when some get passes and others are drummed out of the game on a popularity scale. The entire problem with this thread is some are able to start as much conflict as they wish and the community supports it and some can hardly start any at all without getting walking papers. A lot of times those walking away are newer and less established players that tried something a bit off, bit off more than they could chew, and didn't have the cred to armor themselves. This is unfortunate for a game that only draws a handful of new folks here and there every year.

gilded shale
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I really don't think the intent is to point fingers at who is or isn't disruptive, but to police ourselves and think about if what we're about to do/say is going to be adding to or detracting from these kinds of interactions. Especially for scheduled GM-driven events that generally see a lot of player participation.

grave badge
# compact pagoda The definition on what is disruptive appears to vary from person to person and o...

And that's were the authority of the storyteller comes in. The level of disruption that a storyteller can tolerate while continuing to run a story event is also going to vary from person to person. Key point on the communication topic that's been central to the convo in this thread. Basically, if you get told your behavior is being disruptive and asked to stop, and you don't.... shouldn't matter if your straight off the turnip farm or everyone's favorite hero. Personally, I lean into a quick solution with a cooldown. Sometimes disruptive behavior is really tied to emotional investment. Timeout isn't always a bad option. I know for sure there have been times in the past I could have done better by forcing myself to take a timeout.

lusty kettle
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I think most of us have probably been there, for sure. Myself included.

stark ginkgo
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I think if players are expected to reach out to each other in an OOC capacity to make sure everyone is ok. Or send a smiley face 😉 or whatever it is not too much to ask that GM's also do the same. I have also seen GM's do this. or bring in a random NPC to redirect or...punt someone to Ta'vaalor.

Lets face it this conversation is going to reach the people in this conversation and not many more.

If were serious about going forward in a better way, tools need to come out of it other than just 'self regulate' if we could all self regulate we wouldn't be having this conversation!

We have our own ways of dealing with non-GM events, we have already clearly gone over the fact that people don't need to attend something they don't want to attend and sometimes walking away is best.

I personally would prefer an IC response to disruption but I would rather have an OOC whisper than a year long discord argument.

lusty kettle
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So, here's the thing--if we do whisper to them OOC, you are not going to know it was done--and it does happen. So from a player perspective, the fact there was a disruption is the only thing known. I don't think asking people to self-regulate is an unreasonable request. I think most people are capable of self-regulating and there is still some responsibility to players to do this, regardless of what tools we include or don't.

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I have absolutely whispered to people before to let them know they are being disruptive. This sometimes results in the behavior stopping, sometimes it results in more disruption via whispers directed at us, which is again--super distracting when you are trying to NPC and run a story.

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grand compass
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My cat finally catboarded

lusty kettle
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So now you're at a crossroads where you have a room full of people expecting your attention while you are having to deal with an OOC situation.

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Which leads me back to why it's not unreasonable to ask people to work at self-regulation. 🙂

gleaming bison
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to some of the "disruptive" talk, I actually always wondered if there isn't something like a warn command (but not as severe) to kinda report trolling going on. Now I'm not really talking about just disruptive stuff, that can vary widely and can lead to some pretty interesting RP, I'm more refering to like direct trolling. Repeatedly ignoring direction or advise from both pcs and npcs.

One example that just comes off the top of my head, because it was just so blatant and even just made me leave the event altogether absolutely disgusted, was a time an npc showed up put their sword in the ground, and the same person just kept trying to grab it over and over and over again after being told not to at least 10 times.

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like as a player I have no idea what to do in a situation like that, where multiple people try to address it the "right way" but they just continue on

lusty kettle
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I think WARN HARASS is good for that?

stark ginkgo
lusty kettle
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unfortunately there's not always a cliff nearby.... >.> lol

gleaming bison
lusty kettle
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But I will say, it's REALLY difficult to have to police those things live in the moment if you are running the event.

vagrant oar
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Those characters had never been to any storyline night before and had no idea the NPC was a GM because she wasn’t speaking in monsterbold. If the fault is on them, I’d say that speaks volumes to how open we are to new perspectives and faces.

stark ginkgo
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That is also an example of maybe new people not knowing 'the rules' A player walked in a room with an object in the room and started to try and figure out why that object was there...they then employed all the tools we use to do so...lore zong ;zest and everything else...they didn't know

lusty kettle
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So while yes, there will always be people who come and disrupt an event and nothing we can ever say or do will stop that, it's still a worthy conversation to have about the responsibility a player can take on for their own behavior.

gleaming bison
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They were told though by a bunch of people, heck I ooc whispered them "hey I believe that's a GM prop from the npc over there"

vagrant oar
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But they have no way of knowing if that’s true or not just because players say so.

stark ginkgo
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To me that was a very vivid example of how certain crowds can keep others out

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There was also a very recent example of Faireve showing up and people coming up with all kinds of crazy theories about his origins (this was pre normal KST time...where the thorns are still active by the way) and I just let them roll with it...some of them were super creative.

gleaming bison
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I thought the faireve one, this was the one that you made it explode with urglaes right? was awesome, I didn't find any of the non-normal people around disruptive at all, it was really neat seeing the different perspectives there

stark ginkgo
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ok...lets not start rumors....Lizardlaugh

It may have inadvertently led to an explosion...yes

gleaming bison
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just stating facts 🙂 game has really good logging and all right? haha

But I was gonna give the faireve night as a stark contrast in that there was some disruption, but it was GOOD disruption

lusty kettle
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There's definition good disruption, too. 🙂

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People generally aren't concerned about that!

velvet field
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To the sword example I was there and honestly I was more disgusted at how those people were treated. They didn't know what was happening and were just doing what people do in a game.

stark ginkgo
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I think the sword is a good talking point actually.

We are going to build communities within towns and organization and whatever else...especially with certain GM story slices.

We have to be extremely careful we are not building walls at the same time that keep people out who don't know the exact rules or agree 100% with everything our little group says or we keep new people out.

Communites are ok, cliques are not....and sometimes its hard to know when one becomes the other.

grave badge
# velvet field To the sword example I was there and honestly I was more disgusted at how those ...

I think prop interaction maybe a more recurring issue than folks realize. Back when a group of us in the Landing were preparing to go to the Shadow Realm to distract Althedeus, a portal prop had been set up, but wasn't open or functional (but could be battered). When I got there, several warriors were battering away at it trying to get the portal open so I joined in. The context for this was recently there had literally been barricades all over the place that required battering from player characters. Finally the NPC showed up and told us to stop, several folks refused and it was quite disruptive. I think the GM ended up teleporting them across realms or something to make the scroll stop. Would be neat if GMs had a default "prop" item that simply couldn't be interacted with via verbs. Leaves plenty of RP options via ACT, but yeah... in a world where puzzles and "got'chas" abound require verb interaction, can't really blame folks for trying.

hollow frigate
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Something that gives off a message like, 'You get the feeling maybe you should leave the <object> alone.'

And where character's actions don't echo to the 3rd person.

honest meadow
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I think we have something in that wheelhouse.

stark ginkgo
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Bad GM props are a source of conflict.....should add that to the meeting notes

grave badge
stark ginkgo
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Its a big list!

gleaming bison
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Hah yeah the ability to flag an item with gm immortality like npcs have would help a lot, not only to stop scroll, but to show players whom might not know that hey this is gm prop

eager charm
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Often enough I've come across items in-game that just say 'You cannot reach a such-and-such,' and I'm pretty certain it didn't give off any third person messaging. Probably would do well for GMprops that aren't to be manhandled.

inland quest
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I think this conversation gets really specific sometimes in an unhelpful way haha, but I do think the Rheshay thing speaks mostly to the difficulty of alignment again, primarily in the context of not all players knowing what’s going on in a situation (because they weren’t there at the beginning or weren’t witnesses of some previous event) and how do you keep things moving and also get people caught up.

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Which I feel like is not really conflict specific it’s just a thing that is hard about GM run events!

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Yardie might also talk about the “no-sell” problem in this context but that is a little separate for me.

eternal needle
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I mean in the sword example. What I want to know is like did other players kind of whisper to this person and be like dude. This is part of like a storyline. What are you doing? Because saying someone's going in over and over and grabbing a sword doesn't seem like roleplay to me and so if they were educated about it and were still spamming it in a way that other people could see. That's quite odd.

But as far as you know, how do you keep the story moving and let other people catch up? I think that's just etiquette. If you are new to a situation, maybe as we've said before, read the room whisper privately to someone and ask what's going on. Go with the flow a little and try to catch up on your own?

inland quest
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yeah I pretty much agree with all of that

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and the honest answer is I don't know if another players whispered to them ooc to explain the situation, there were certainly comments in the room, but that's not the same thing

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I also agree that my answer is etiquette, but I think this event pulled in some people who don’t come to RP events a lot. You and I have experience and skills to fall back on. They might not have! I guess, in writing this, it does kind of go back to it being on us to help them out OOC so they can develop that experience.

eternal needle
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Also I don't think this is about newer players, though there's probably a branch about how conflict-driven storylines aid or turn away new players. We've seen people say seasoned players have left because of conflict-driven storylines and all the stuff that comes with them.

velvet field
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Sure, but this particular example was

stark ginkgo
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Some people entire experience in this game is playing zork and killing monsters....its not a surprise without any monsters those people might resort to zork tactics. If...Tev or Tikba walked in a room and spammed it by grabbing something 50 times I would assume a cat landed on the keyboard or they was making some strange point or being annoying....but this was a new person.

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I have dragged people out of a room when I could tell some script went crazy....someone waggling in a no spell room over and over....

idk that whole event was just kind of sad

drifting terrace
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Conflict IS a vital component to storytelling. Without any conflict at all, a story won't really have a driving force behind it. What motivates the plot, the characters, and the need for resolution. The magnitude of a conflict can vary. It doesn't have to be on par with Clash of the Titans. It can simply be about the internal conflict within a character, and the help they seek/get to resolve it. There are no stories in human history that lack some sort of conflict, or a need to resolve something by the end of the story.

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Having said that... conflict between players is not something I am a huge fan of. The ability to play a character, in a game like Gemstone IV, is vastly different than a prescribed, edited, and revised character as one might be portrayed in a classic novel.

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I much prefer to offer the conflict, and have players use their characters in a manner to help resolve it in a cooperative endeavor.

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But there are certainly times where ideals, shoulds, and oughts do not align between the characters. I think it takes skill to navigate those moments elegantly, as both players and GameMasters, so nobody is left feeling like they ended up on the short end of a stick.

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Regarding moments like someone spamming a room with commands, and not listening to the NPC (aka: GameMaster) who is trying to help navigate those moments, is certainly a choice made by the players and being disruptive in a room full of people has its own consequences.

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Being thrown in a volcano may or may not be one such consequence.

wary raven
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I vaguely remember the incident with Rheshay and the weapon. It didn't make the same impression on me as it did with others. That illustrates how differently players interpret events during storylines. When you take into account the depth of in-game experiences and years invested into the development of a character it is easy to understand how conflict can get heated and move toward something beyond the pale. Maybe it is better to put it into perspective and look at it as straightforward as possible. Every storyline is not necessarily for every player. If the only path forward is predetermined one not in line with the vision of your character it is better to cut ties with that storyline sooner than later. The only regret I have of doing that is not making the decision sooner.

void tinsel
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It sounds like a lot of the discussion today boils down to "read the room." Sometimes that's tough, and I know I've failed at it on occasion, carrying on about one thing while the rest of the group is headed in a different direction. Sometimes that's unintentionally disruptive, which has a lot less to do with how long somebody talks and a lot more with how far down the Garden Path they lead things, but most of us do self-correct most of the time. I have to agree with Casil that we should be largely self-aware about that and not force a GM NPC to spend a lot of effort course-correcting.

Also saw a really good point, and I'm sorry I don't remember who it was who made it because I'm catching up on all this after being incommunicado at work, that we don't always see how other players have offered ooc Whispers to try to help somebody read the room if it isn't clear. I'm sometimes a little reticent to do it because I don't want to tell people what to do, even though I know a few people are going to snicker at that assertion, heh. I think that after reading this, I'll be a little bit less reticent to do so but make sure that I do it kindly and thoughtfully and with the awareness that somebody else may also be doing it so I don't make someone feel picked on.

I also don't mean to make it sound as though there's only one possible path, because we know that's not so. GMS are very responsive to us, and they'll take stories in a lot of different directions according to what we give them. But there are times when it is so far off in left field that it no longer works, or maybe it's a night where everybody wants exposition while one person wants it to be fight night and gets in an NPC's face. That's not wrong; sometimes it's warranted. But it Loops back around to reading the room and seeing that other people are hoping for information rather than argument, just as an example.

slim parrot
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I'm a bit annoyed about the example used when it was clarified and the "reading the room" and inquring steps were taken.

The person that people are trying to tiptoe around regarding the Tristar was Yardie. Just say the name. Yardie sympathized with Enonma’s cries about disapproval and mourning of her marriage to Henshor, taking words from the CHARACTER and reacting to that IN GAME. Not copying all of it, but an example.

The ghostly voice of Enomna bitterly says, "The only needless death was my husband's... if the Basilica would stop their restrictions on these things, no one would have needed to die."

But he did NOT state that she was being hunted down because of her marriage, nor did he excuse what she did. He told the Tristar that if this was a problem, then he had concerns it could lead to other incidents. That said, he stated, REPEATEDLY, that Enomna was in the wrong and needed to be given the full extent of punishment.

Speaking to Enomna, you say, "Love is love. I have no quarrel with who you chose as your mate. It si simply for your crimes that you must pay for."

Here’s another instance where something I said was twisted and turned into something I didn’t say. Where have I seen that before?

This is not the first time this has been brought up as a “gotcha” moment, and this was brought up from the same back pocket to try to refute an issue that I dare not mention for being called a certain type of agitator. You can find it if you’re curious.

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The tiptoeing is pretty blatant about this whole conflict thing in one simple issue: People do not like other people, not characters, and don’t want them to be anywhere near them or even talk no matter what they do. So just say that. Say you don’t want me around. Don’t be fake. I don’t care if you like me. I’ll be respectful. I demand the same in return. And if you’re one of those who asked for no interaction, we don’t.

I did my part, checked in with folks, and it was settled, honestly, not made out to be what this has been this blowback. Now this came up again.

Look, I’ll say this one more time. If there is an issue, players, DM me. If you feel I’m doing whatever, go ahead and Warn Harass or Interact me. GMs, if you have an issue with my character in game, tell me. DM me. Check me. I’m grown. I can deal. We may not see eye to eye, but we can always make a mutual decision and go from there. See, all of these issues constantly would push me away. But again, I’m not a weak person. You can’t crack me.

Anything further on this subject or other things of note will be formally done through feedback. I don’t feel I get a fair shake here on Discord, which makes me nauseous. If you want to DM me, do so tomorrow. My patience and cordial nature are thin, and I don’t want to lash out at you. And now I have to apologize to a friend because they stated I should ignore it, and I failed to do so. I just had enough and needed to defend myself.

Peace.

void tinsel
#

Believe it or not, I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about somebody who isn't even in this thread because he recently decided to take a step back from discord, and I hope it's only from Discord because I like and cherish him and thoroughly hope he doesn't feel bad about having one of those nights that we all have.

stark ginkgo
#

He...wasnt talking about you Lylia...your both coming in and catching up I would guess

inland quest
#

in fairness yardie is responding to a post from like 10 hours ago lol

void tinsel
#

Haha, I think there's a lot of that going around, it looks like! But yeah, just wanted to clarify that the incident I had in mind, although it is certainly not isolated, wasn't referring to that. But I think it's kind of indicative of just how much we all do this, how much we all have those moments of thinking it's directed when it isn't.

#

Yeah, I thought it was in reference to mine; I was really just kind of skimming after dinner, and I fought the post following mine was directly related to mine, not to something way back. Didn't mean to create more confusion; sorry if I did.

stark ginkgo
#

no confusion added...your fine...everyone is fine. Tikba maybe not so much but everyone else.

(your fine too Tikba!)

inland quest
#

I’m going to blood magic you

gilded shale
#

You've got about half of an amazing RHCP album there. nods

smoky glacier
grand compass
#

Join Neil Newbon's discord... you'll get those and stickers

drifting terrace
#

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "not able to do anything". Every option you mentioned involves the barony not existing. There were a lot of options left out otherwise, but it doesn't seem like they are being considered as a realistic alternative and that may end up putting some characters on the "wrong side of history" when it comes to having long-standing peace between the Empire and the Landing.

vagrant oar
#

Most of the things I mentioned wouldn't have needed to actually succeed, but the path wasn't there to even try and fail.

And some characters should be on the wrong side of history. That's almost my entire point in a single sentence.

drifting terrace
#

There were paths. Nobody considered them when they were presented. I'm not going to delve into that, because missed opportunities are already gone.

#

but Drazinoth certainly presented some.

#

you just had to be willing to go against both the Barony AND the Landing to do it

stark ginkgo
#

yea...and thats why we made the thorns, it was inevitable that the GM options would be some horrendous evil action. I should clarify that is why I personally thought there was a need for an alternative....others had different opinions on that and probably would not have minded some horrific options.

vagrant oar
drifting terrace
#

You guys made your own group without any NPCs. I call that a win.

stoic raven
stark ginkgo
#

I'm not complaining....I think I said....well way up there somewhere that the status quo might just be what iit is going forward. In my opinion the Wyrdeep took 800 years to freedom fight its way out and we have 799 more to go before we are behind them.

drifting terrace
#

I didn't offer any. I don't really know what the backlash was. Sorry.

stoic raven
void tinsel
#

I have always seen the Rooks as the "against the Empire (and/or Barony) and for the Landing" option, and that has been expanded upon mightily with GM support.

stark ginkgo
#

....ok, I will let Leafiara field that one I ain't touching it.

vagrant oar
#

I'm waiting on the Beldrin meeting before assessing where we're at with that one. If it's not promising, that might be it for me.

inland quest
#

It’s impossible for the vast majority of players to understand the situation with the rooks because of their OOC secrecy, which is why it’s good that that has ended haha

vagrant oar
#

In hindsight, we probably should have recruited more. ...but maybe not. I still think we kinda accidentally screwed up Kenstrom's intended plot progression with the way we (at least several of us) reacted to Ordlyn's dance number with a sense of immediate urgency, so maybe going more open earlier would have screwed things up even worse. 🤣

void tinsel
#

Yep, that's another example of sometimes not knowing all that goes on; I didn't know much at all about PC Rooks because it wasn't for my character, but it was going on, which is good! That was another viable path, albeit not an obvious one as the organization had to remain fairly secret.

stark ginkgo
#

Everytime this gets brought up they themselves come on and say they are not sure what is going on. I am not sure why it keeps getting brought up unless there is some movement no one knows about....which is entirely possible I suppose but it seems unlikely at this point.

but we are probably veering into landinization again

inland quest
#

It keeps getting brought up because most players are completely unclear on most things about the rooks because of the OOC secrecy!

#

And yeah we are lol

stark ginkgo
#

an ending where the Barony stays in control of most of the playable map around the landing is probably and ending where the status quo just keeps going in the conflict though. I am fine with that outcome but it should be noted.

vagrant oar
#

Oh, it's not just the OOC secrecy aspect, to be clear. It's a recurring thing in KST that whether you're a Rook, a Marshal, a Councilor, an Envoy, or anything else, sudden developments and surprises kinda get sprung on you out of nowhere from things that are theoretically supposed to be in your purview.

Edit: Todd the NPC militiaman randomly reporting things to Juramis before Stormyrain's player finds out would be a good example from this story.

Edit 2: Another example would be that Pukk's player and I (maybe also others, but at least the two of us) had thought that Alendrial's words from the end of the trial implied that Beldrin would be the new leader. Only many months later did we find out that wasn't the case. Even just the "Parliament of Rooks" concept in general was learned by us at the same time as everyone else!

void tinsel
#

Yeah, I don't want to steer the whole thread that way either -- more just noting that it was another viable path that was perhaps a bit obscured by the fact that it was a more secretive organization.

To broaden it back out and make it not just All Landing, All The Time: Secret organizations are so much fun, but they are also fraught with such peril. Would love to hear what people, including GM people if they would like to chime in, think about secret organizations. Good? Bad? Favoritism? Essential to stirring realistic conflict?

stark ginkgo
#

I find people overly connected to large governments sometimes veer into the "listen to me or watch your hamlet burn" type of RP and....don't like it

drifting terrace
#

well if you are going to call out Todd. he values friendship more than authority. you could just ask him that yourself.

#

but, that's all I got for you regarding Todd.

stark ginkgo
#

I like Todd, nice guy.

vagrant oar
#

Yeah, I have no problem with Todd or his portrayal. I'm just saying that sometimes even when players are in storyline positions that might lead other players to believe they know more about some behind-the-scenes events, they actually just find out at the same time as everyone else.

inland quest
stark ginkgo
#

Was Kenstrom at the trial?

vagrant oar
void tinsel
hollow frigate
#

Raelee's average lead time on Hall business is usually about 2 minutes. I understand it's a really tough needle to thread... like they can't just give me a massive infodump ahead of time, because that starts to get into that squicky favoritism territory.

drifting terrace
#

as a GameMaster, I will NEVER give information to a player outside of a setting where others are not also privy to it if they are present. there were multiple occasions where Todd tried to track down the Marshal and give context about a scenario - with the only goal to provide information to Everyone present. There isn't a rat's chance in a river of lava that I'd put myself in a position like that.

#

and in those scenarios, Todd was very successful.

lusty kettle
#

I've definitely given information to characters who have made an effort to get more information. However, I never give out anything that is going to give them a leg up on the storyline in any fashion.

#

And I would do it for anyone who tries to get more information. It'll probably be the SAME information, but I do reward RP efforts with RP information.

#

But mind, my storylines tend to have a much smaller cast of players so it's a little easier to make sure nobody's being left out that wants to be included.

#

Generally speaking, this is done via player mail.

eternal needle
# void tinsel Yeah, I don't want to steer the whole thread that way either -- more just noting...

I think secret organizations and one-on-one things are fine as long it's not preventing other people from getting involved eventually.

I think the favoritism thing is gross to call out. I don't know all the staff but I've seen how the world team is and have seen what they do and I'd be tilted if someone brought that stuff about them, so I'm going to trust the rest of the staff as well.

And what about characters getting stuff they don't deserve? Well that falls into my one-step program - MYB. Mind. Your. Business. And how their character gets rewarded or acknowledged has nothing to do with mine. And if we get into a space where characters are getting engaged with, whether that be titles or cool promotions or whatever, that could mean it's only going to happen more and more. It's not a pie. There's enough to go around.

simple dirge
#

I am having a lot of trouble understanding this thread (is it about planned conflict in general or about specific likes/dislikes of Landing storylines?), though I would say one reason for people becoming uncomfortable with each other is when the factual aspects of a story are not communicated clearly. Players will then assume different facts and have their characters react in a way consistent with their assumptions, and it causes a conflict not between characters but between players trying to establish what the objective reality is.

drifting terrace
#

I think that's a gross misunderstanding of the situation. Perspective is an important factor, and not all of those involved (NPCs included) will present information the same way.

#

There's also been a good amount of hand-waiving of information because a character doesn't agree with something else an NPC said or did.

#

It's not a hammer and nail situation.

drifting terrace
#

I really don't understand the "factual aspects of a story not being communicated clearly". Nobody who tells a good story gives up the ending before its done being told.

stark ginkgo
torpid pagoda
#

here's the original question direct from the log, for reference:


Lucrecea says, "While I'm not opposed to conflict and think they make for engaging stories, I'd like to request storylines that focus on allowing our communities to work with one another instead of against each other."

Lucrecea says, "For the ones that do have the opportunity for our characters to serve as an antagonist, I'd like to request for that to be a role that we intentionally opt into instead of being automatically cast that way by virtue of being of X citizenship or culture or other group affiliation, or simply because another town wants to start a war with someone in the EN."```
#

this question appears to have been what sparked the original extended dialog in #taʼillistim , which was eventually moved here as it was beyond the scope of a single city

#

that said, this thread has definitely morphed substantially since its creation - just like the dialog surrounding the original request was not actually about that specific request but instead about tangentially related stuff that also dealt with conflict and storylines
(neither of which is a bad thing, conversations evolve over time and get out great things as a result)

gleaming bison
#

I think overall we're just trying to have a discussion on how we can make our times RPing in the game and in storylines better and more enjoyable, and obviously people have lots of various feelings on that, but we can still talk about it and have a civil discussion which I think the vast majority of this has been. Hopefully GMs have potentially pulled some tidbits or ideas from all that discussion, and players too.

stark ginkgo
#

Yes like GM props are a source of conflict

compact pagoda
#

GMs are a source of conflict! 😜

stark ginkgo
#

Could be argued, that's their job. At least the ones telling stories. Actually it really wouldn't even take much of an argument.

drifting terrace
#

As I've stated above, there is no story without some kind of conflict. But once it turns into complaining, I think we've lost the point of the thread.

compact pagoda
dire wave
#

Obviously what is needed is the return of Despana. Then we would all have to band together to survive.

compact pagoda
#

Except those who were like "yay, I'm on her side!" ((Edit: which is totally valid and cool if that's your thing))

dire wave
#

Ain't no one on Despanas' side 'cept the Undead.

compact pagoda
#

Love finds a way

void tinsel
# drifting terrace I really don't understand the "factual aspects of a story not being communicated...

It's my understanding that it's less about giving away the story and more about establishing some of the fundamental facts surrounding it at the outset. If there were a story that involved going to New Ta'Faendryl and someone were to talk about how it's a ruin filled with Ithzir and we shouldn't go there, for instance, that would be a fundamental misunderstanding of what was going on. Which happens! I know I have made mistakes in who was doing what, where. But if somebody were to double down and insist that this is the truth about NTF, it would create frustrating dissonance.

#

Everybody doesn't have to see everything in exactly the same way, and conflict is absolutely the primary driver of growth and change and exciting storylines. My example isn't so great, but I wanted to take it out of the realm of past events and complaints into somewhere theoretical, talking about the nature of how we engage in conflict rather than continuing existing conflicts.

stark ginkgo
#

It took 6 months, and a bit of reverse psychology to get a confirmation Bodohal killed some people

#

This should have fallen into the....sky is blue and it rained yesterday level of storytelling information.

wary raven
stark ginkgo
wary raven
flat hornet
stark ginkgo
flat hornet
#

Yes, please.

wary raven
#

I remember when Rysus was slaughtered frontier justice was just fine. And when Bodohal was treated similarly it was not. One NPC was anti-imperial. One NPC was imperial. That is my attempt at bringing something and being civil.

stark ginkgo
wary raven
#

Players view the same events very differently. I put forth an example. Same situation. Same frontier justice. Very different reception.

tropic schooner
#

Look, a squirrel! 🐿️

wary raven
# tropic schooner Look, a squirrel! 🐿️

Wolfloner sees the squirrel and darts off after it. Not. Nice try though. 😄 If this where the rogue channel you could just bring up stocking memes and it might derail the conversation.

keen pelican
#

Peri was alone with Bodohal at the north gate for a full 5-10 minutes before anyone else even showed up as I recognized the justice system message that released him at the end of the trial.

I was heavily debating killing him but found it in conflict with the IC thing Peri would do with an NPC who had more information we needed, faced crimes in the empire, and was helpless and unarmed so I was attempting to have Peri arrest and transport him to Vornavis to see him face justice for crimes in the empire when other folk finally showed up. Bodohal woke up and made an immediate break for it and the rest followed.

Do I care from a OOC standpoint that he was killed? No. There was plenty of time for me as a player to take action that would have kept him alive. One of the reasons this choice wasn't made was because I didnt want to attack another PC when their character had justification for killing him. IC Peri considered it a dark grey area, and while Peri didn't find it serving the purpose of justice, Bodohal had done enough to earn that death.

If Peri blames anyone for how that went, he blames judge Manard for his choice in sentence.

I as a player am unbothered by how it ended. Was it my preference? No, but I don't expect it to always work out how I'd like, and that's fine. Makes it more rewarding when it does.

wary raven
keen pelican
#

I wasn't around for Rysus so I can only speak to my perspective on the latter.

wary raven
#

I am not trying to set this channel on fire. I am trying to illustrate an example of at least the appearance of what things look like or can be interpreted from another point of view not pro empire.

stoic raven
#

I'm just disappointed I didnt run after him and get to kill him myself. Lith had been saving her knitting needle dagger for just that moment. She had her reasons, they werent very good reasons though to anyone except her.

stark ginkgo
inland quest
#

Yes, I agree that would be insane lol

#

It’s not festivus

wary raven
stark ginkgo
inland quest
#

I think people will be unwilling to talk because it will be a repetitive waste of time we have already engaged in several times.

wary raven
#

It gives the appearance of dismissing what other players' experiences are and may well make them unwilling to respond going forward.

#

What I find a waste of time versus what someone might may be very different.

#

Dismissing one or the other doesn't seem to be a promising path forward. At least not from my viewpoint. But if that is all there is then no point flogging the proverbial dead horse.

tranquil rune
# drifting terrace As I've stated above, there is no story without some kind of conflict. But once...

This thread moved the needle for me actually. I don't think we as a playerbase can handle conflict. I think storytelling will suffer, but if there was a vote, put me down for plain, black and white kill the bad guy stuff in the future.

As things stand, I'm gonna participate how I see fit and RP my character how I see fit, but I don't think there is anything I can do to prevent some feelings from getting hurt if people are going to take things so personally when they are directed and NPCs and NPC governments, etc.

nocturne delta
#

Personally, when I mentioned disruption in an RP event, I more mean:
I scream something at the NPC once. NPC takes a moment to stop giving exposition to reply.
I scream at the GM again, and the GM doesn't immediately reply back to me, because they are responding to others, and they came there tonight to progress the story.
I KEEP SCREAMING at the GM, causing other characters to watch what is now a train wreck as the GM turns to answer, now annoyed.
That sort of thing.

Really, I always feel like I'm playing hopscotch when it comes to NPCs in the room. I say my thing, maybe ask twice, then fall back on Mychars and personal introspection IG... because there are 30 people in the room, and I am not the main focus unless the GM is focused on me, and we are back and forthing. Some just need to learn to dance within the ropes so we all get a turn to jump in. I fret about taking too much focus, because these are not new arguments.

tranquil rune
nocturne delta
# tranquil rune I really agree that this would be problematic, but I can't say I ever really see...

My brow is furrowing, because I didn't say they did. I think about the Thorns way less than seems to be... considered. The only time I really consider this whole other player org is on my previously clearly stated points. This is a thread on Conflict. I glanced up at Yardie getting upset earlier in thread, and since I think I was the first person to bring up this aspect of conflict, I tried to clarify my statement, but didn't want to reply at Yardie because I wasn't talking about him, and never had been. Mostly, was subtly giving Yardie a "there there" with this last comment.

#

And absolutely, yes. This does happen.

#

Though something I have been chewing on, Conflict-wise, comes to mind. And it is about Discord communication.
I am not able to process many people talking/typing to me at once, all wanting my attention. I also shy away from it in game, if anyone realizes, and have my character back away. When it comes to Discord, I'm not certain how to mitigate this, because we are not IRL, and cannot tell if five other people are already talking at someone before we hit enter. Seeing that, will often make me reel back from a discussion and not want to participate.
I have no suggestions on how to alleviate this, but am looking for suggestions on how to either handle/process it better. Either that, or put across that it is an issue on my end, and to hit DM rather than send in a busy thread. Since DMs are more... individual, it's easier to parse. Otherwise, I'll just keep throwing up my hands and refusing to engage in these instances.

#

I'm also simmering with anger and resentment on being called a liar a few days back, because I NEVER lie. Morally, I think it's wrong, but it is also part of that processing thing. It's too much effort to lie. Say I misunderstood, or you se eit different, but call me a liar, and now you have me pissed off.

keen pelican
#

I think we as players have a hard time emotionally compartmentalizing ourselves from our characters. Part of that is because we WANT to experience our characters and the emotions that go with it but those emotions arent always easy to cast off and regularly bleed through to us as players.

PC Conflict as a regularity brings up more negative emotions and I find can be cumulative over time so without finding a way to catharsis its easy to see why it boils. It's important for us to have outlets for this and against NPCs thats easy as many of them are their for us to wail on.

PCs are a much more complicated situation since we don't have an inherent right to batter each other. It has to be communicated and accepted beforehand. For some that might break the illusion but honestly, I think for tough conflict i've found communicating OOC with those Peri is working against to be incredibly helpful in building a relationship with those I engage in deeper conflict with.

inland quest
#

I’m glad you brought up bleed. It’s definitely an important thing to think about. We want to have emotional reality for our characters but we also want to keep that reality in a box and sometimes it sneaks out haha. For me OOC communication is definitely a way I recognize and try to neutralize that emotional leakage. That’s why I think the OOC discord channels are so potentially valuable, although I think sometimes they drift from that purpose 😔

vagrant oar
#

This thread has led me to the opposite conclusion and made me deeply concerned about OOC leaking into IC.

gilded shale
#

It's definitely a two-way street. We have already seen some people's pet hot-button topics from the Discords leak into IC. It's probably inevitable to some extent, and we can only manage it ourselves.

tranquil rune
#

I also have to relate all this back to my experience, and in my experience even if you don't do any of the many anecdotal things that people, rightly, say are the bad aspects of conflict, things still spiral OOC and you wind up with an untenable situation.

I think the heart of the issue is that there are a not insigificant number of character that have built themselves around an in game instition, faction, whatever, such that any opposition to that faction feels like personal opposition and gets taken as a personal attack. I legitimately don't know if this is solvable problem.

west moss
# keen pelican I think we as players have a hard time emotionally compartmentalizing ourselves ...

This is the only game in my (oh god) 25 years of roleplaying online that doesn't encourage and expect OOC communication between people who are roleplaying together, and it's also far and away the one that struggles the most with keeping character and player feelings separate. There's something there.

I've only had good OOC lines of communication with one player whose character mine has come into conflict with and unsurprisingly, that is the only conflict I've really enjoyed and welcome returning to every time we run into each other in game.

I'm not Avawen, Avawen is not me. I only wish I dressed that well.

inland quest
#

In my experience with roleplay online and at the table OOC communication is absolutely key.

drifting terrace
#

Staff can only do so much to encourage that method of communication. At some point the onus can no longer rest on our shoulders and we just have to wait to see how things play out.

#

I think the main takeaway has to be that if you are going to engage in something controversial, it is your responsibility to ensure that all parties involved are onboard with it. If they aren't, then maybe that particular endeavor should be reconsidered.

#

at least from the player/OOC perspective, regardless of how characters would handle it in-game

#

I certainly hope the ultimate goal is for people to have fun, and not do it at the expense of other players.

west moss
#

Oh, I should clarify. The " encourage and expect" there comes from a shared community expectation,not a GM one. I'm a relative GS baby, and adjusting to the lack of OOC communication specifically around conflict was a struggle.

Within my first few months my character was murdered for roleplay actions I did not understand at the time could possibly be offensive, and had no out of character communication around it. That was just wild to me.

eternal needle
drifting terrace
#

I'm not talking about a session zero environment. I'm talking about being mindful and considerate of how your actions affect others and having the foresight to ponder that before you decide to take a specific course of action.

eternal needle
#

Right, but I'm saying like if we're saying that the success of conflict in a role-play environment is making sure out of character that all the parties involved are onboard and in communication, what should that look like for the Game Masters who are running these storylines?

ashen pumice
# drifting terrace I think the main takeaway has to be that if you are going to engage in something...

things are convtroversial to some parties that aren't to others. Navigating this is impossible as it stands, i.e. I'm supposed to be ok with the Krolvin now because Tyrrax is kinda funny and kids died. As if there isn't an entire library of history dedicated to their predalictions for rape, slavery and other nefarious deeds. You can apply that same issue to almost every group, but the more we go on, the more it feels like anyone who had, or used lore from the past to build a back story including, negative interactions with any group a player could conceivable be a part of or feel sympathetic too is no longer allowed to maintain those feelings. The Empire was flat racist until last year, even in game. Krolvin were flat evil until the end of last year. Pointing that out gets you dog piled.

drifting terrace
#

Lumping all members of a group together is a fallacy

#

There has never been a general "The Empire" in Gemstone. It's always been various baronies/etc that were given general oversight. It's nothing like how a government operates today. Edit: Some governments may still operate like this.

#

Jantalar is not Aldora

#

Mestanir is not Trauntor

hollow frigate
#

Oire is mostly roltons. (I know roltons can be jerks, but still.)

drifting terrace
#

NPCs have tried to convey this multiple times, but it's always glossed over when it's actually the most critical point being mentioned in the conversation.

#

If you view The Empire as a single entity with aligned goals and ideals, then you are only looking at it from a surface level perspective rather than what it actually is. That would be like saying California and Florida and Texas all share the same ideals and goals.

#

They do not.

inland quest
inland quest
drifting terrace
#

yeah, even one of my main NPCs is strongly against the krolvin... and I also play a reiver NPC who is VERY against any krolvin settling near them

ashen pumice
#

Realistically, the average peasant in the universe wouldn't know that, and probably the average adventurer wouldn't either. All those groups fall under the umbrella of the Turazmyn (SP) Empire and it's general lands and holdings.

Not to derail this talk completely into Pro-Anti Empire, because it's not the only conflict, but it's been a constant sticking point that definitely comes across as something we're just supposed to ignore.

ashen pumice
drifting terrace
#

I'm going to kindly disagree with that sentiment.

inland quest
#

That was the IC conflict!

ashen pumice
inland quest
#

Mmm

#

I think we got the message from tyrrax and then Alendrial threw it open to discussion

hollow frigate
# ashen pumice Realistically, the average peasant in the universe wouldn't know that, and proba...

Can I offer a counter-argument there?

The Emperor is incredibly far away from the average peasant. The average peasant is likely to know their neighbor. They know the Malwinds because they live in Vornavis and that is the leadership. Jantalar is familiar because it's impacted their daily life and it's just over there.

But the local, baronial-level leadership is much more likely to be visible to peasants, because their actions are the ones that change the day to day. The Sun Throne is a much more distant idea.

It's kind of like the days of the Holy Roman Empire. It was technically an Empire, but France was still France and everybody knew it.

drifting terrace
#

I'll use Juramis as an example. His entire way of life was destroyed by krolvin. He has moved to Wehnimer's Landing to start over... now look who is on the doorstep.

#

Part of Brisker's Cove remains in ruins (the Iron Docks) due to the attack by the krolvin.

#

BUT, that doesn't mean olive branches are out of the question with other people. And I respect those players enough to not interject my NPC in a way that ruins their attempt to engage in that conversation.

ashen pumice
#

I wasn't trying to get sucked into specific discussions here, I don't think that'd be fruitful for anyone really because my experiences aren't going to line up with what y'all have seen. Just calling out that simply saying 'be aware if you're saying something controversial' isn't always easy because we don't all see anything the same way as being controversial.

This is a game that's supposed to embrace conflict, but it sure feels an awful lot like having any kind of conflicting opinion from certain angles is a mortal sin. And that sucks, because the conflict is a heck of a lot more fun than Hello Kitty: Island Adventure.

drifting terrace
#

Nobody is saying conflict is always bad. But there's a difference between knowing something OOC and making a decision on how to play a character.

#

If you are just here to dispute what I'm telling you (as a GameMaster) then I don't really see any point in continuing this line of thought.

#

We can just move on.

gilded shale
#

The hyperbole and strawmen aren't helpful to anyone. I don't think anybody (in this thread, at least) is here to play Hello Kitty: Island Adventure.

hollow frigate
#

And I'll definitely say... most people who are calling for less conflict aren't really saying they don't want conflict. It's just calling for an easing back on storylines where we're being actively pitted against each other in factions. Those have felt very dominant in recent years.

Even with a common goal, there's plenty of room for conflict.

tranquil rune
# drifting terrace I think the main takeaway has to be that if you are going to engage in something...

I have a pretty large problem with this sentiment. It goes back to what I said earlier. There are characters that are tied so deeply to their faction that it certainly seems like attacks on the faction feel like attacks on the character.

The other side of that is there are lots of characters also who don't really fit into a given story on the side of said faction. Serious participation means opposition.

What happens when one side says please don't say bad things about my faction?

drifting terrace
#

You are welcome to have a problem with it, but in the end we have policy and rules. It's up to the GameMaster running the storyline to determine what is being disruptive or not.

void tinsel
# ashen pumice I wasn't trying to get sucked into specific discussions here, I don't think that...

If you search back for your name in this thread, and I hope you do, you will see how many times I've used you as an example of exactly how to roleplay conflict brilliantly. You took a character who has a strong point of view, took action based on that point of view, stuck by those actions, role played out the consequences of those actions, and made it clear it was all in character. Nobody wants Hello Kitty Island adventures, or at least I don't think so; but if more people handle conflict like that, it wouldn't be such a contentious issue.

tropic schooner
#

Okay, the takeaway from what Lylia said is that she’s really into Hello Kitty Island adventures. Good to know. Discuss.

drifting terrace
#

I am definitely not saying that people shouldn't play controversial roles. I am just saying that there is a way to handle it OOC in a respectful manner. On both sides of any dispute. Nobody is being singled out here.

gilded shale
#

You guys will rue these words when Zack Snyder's take on the Sanrio Universe comes out.

eternal needle
shy folio
drifting terrace
#

I'm not going to get into a debate on "common sense".

eternal needle
#

Why does it have to be a debate instead of a conversation?

drifting terrace
#

I think we are having trouble understanding the difference between OOC and IC during this discussion. So I'm going to bow out.

knotty gale
#

Due to life, i cannot attend GM RP/storylines on a routine basis. That said, there are some i would not attend even if i could, because it seems to be a giant fubar from trying to follow along from dicord.

gilded shale
#

I think that IC/OOC bleed is, at least in part, what the conversation is about

eternal needle
tranquil rune
#

Yeah, ok, this is where I check out too. I am gonna do my thing. Per my usual behavior, I am going to harass absolutely noone, and I will rely on the GM running the story to tell me when my participation is not welcome

void tinsel
# knotty gale Due to life, i cannot attend GM RP/storylines on a routine basis. That said, t...

It sounds a lot worse here than it actually is in game. I hope you dip into a few of them and give them a chance; what you see here doesn't reflect how the game looks and feels. Sometimes I love the ability to talk outside of our characters and straighten things out, and other times I think it just makes it all worse. But at any rate, you might enjoy the story stuff more than you think! I hope you give it a chance if something happens at a time that works for you.

gilded shale
#

I think Raelee made a good point earlier, though I'm having trouble wading through this thread to find it, about how sometimes players would just like a break from all the negativity about their faction. I'd hate for that point to be lost just because we're offended again, because its a great one no matter which faction we're talking about.

hollow frigate
#

That's very much it, Tev.

And sometimes that break can even just come from telling a story about something else entirely. Shine the spotlight elsewhere for awhile.

tropic schooner
#

Next on KST: The Little Magister That Gave A Hoot - The Owly Story

hollow frigate
tropic schooner
void tinsel
#

Festivals used to be more of a break from it all, but they seem a little bit less so these days; I'm not sure if that's because the overall level of vitriol is higher or because festivals just mean pressing the pause button on all story activity, freezing everything in place so we can all just pick up our grudges right where we left them. I hope the takeaway from this lengthy dialogue is that we do enjoy stories that have conflict, but maybe the fault lines along which those conflicts happen can change?

compact pagoda
# drifting terrace If you view The Empire as a single entity with aligned goals and ideals, then yo...

I'm way behind bc I had to go thru the wonders of Newark airport, but like outside forces feeling the weight of an Empire don't care if the people coming in to influence their lives are from Cali or Texas, they just see USA. So it seems valid to RP your character as not knowing those nuances. My Vaalor person botches all the names of imperial places bc to him it's (a) all kinds the general same humans (who he has no problem with) and (b) they all change around so much in an elf's life that it's easier to not bother learning them. So a lot of people could easily just see "empire"

drifting terrace
#

which is fine if your character would view it from that surface level perspective.

#

but a character seeing it that way, and a player having information about it being more nuanced are two different things

hollow frigate
void tinsel
#

We do kind of feed into it and continue to talk about it and such, and I don't think it's just boredom. We all want to say something because otherwise we're afraid our voices aren't heard, that our viewpoints may not be taken into account. When the subject is something as contentious as conflict itself, we're going to have a lot to say about it.

Also, I have had a few extra hours off work due to weather, so.. yeah, obviously I'm not going to stay away from arguing on Discord! I haven't linked the gif from Dr. Strangelove of "gentlemen, you can't fight in here -- this is the war room!" But I have thought about it a lot as we argue in the conflict forum.

drifting terrace
#

I'm really trying Not to be part of this discussion anymore, and am more interested in what people have to say about it rather than participate. People just need to respect each other OOC in my opinion, and there isn't more to discuss from the chair I'm sitting in.

rich hawk
#

Dis da place where we reminiss bout past conflicks? I tried to pick a fite wit Misser Pukk, once... he smooched me onna da nose! <mutters something about "daggum-cheater">

stark ginkgo
#

Ok I'm off work were are we in the empire is the equivalent of mother Russia and we understand not all Russia but your still ok not to like Russia if you are in the Ukraine conversation?.....oh crap it's Dwi

gilded shale
#

I don't think real life analogues are helpful, especially when they absolutely reek of IC/OOC bleed.

stark ginkgo
#

Ok.....well....that's an interesting take. I'll keep it in mind.

gilded shale
#

How uncommonly civil of you. 🙂

inland quest
#

Mostly I think most real life analogues are bad analogues lol

#

They tend to have the analytical quality of a guy you just met at a bar

stark ginkgo
#

I love talking analytics with guys I meet at bars....it's statistically going to be interesting

gilded shale
#

It is all too easy to say, "This faction my character doesn't like reminds me of this person whose actions I disapprove of IRL." And then it's hilarious because both sides say it, and they're talking about the same person/politician/aggressor.

inland quest
#

I think the best comparison is the relationship of the HRE to belgica

#

Now you can’t argue with me without looking that up

gilded shale
#

That's where you're wrong, ma'am, I'm no history major but I played enough Crusader Kings to know exactly what you're talking about

stark ginkgo
#

I could use Zhentil Keep and the dale lands but I think....not all Zhentil Keep is factually wrong....

gilded shale
#

I think Cormyr and the Dalelands was more apt if we're talking present day. Mynal'lyanna was 100% Manshoon from what I can recall. lol

inland quest
#

I have to be honest, I have no idea what any of that is

#

This is rolemaster

whole widget
#

When I see people talking about the Zhents and realize my time has come 🪽 🐍

gilded shale
#

We're being Forgotten Realms nerds right now, please forgive us

inland quest
#

Forgotten realms is basically pokemon to me

#

A thing other people know that I find baffling and alien

gilded shale
#

..honestly, post 3.5 Realms is pretty baffling and alien to me, too

#

Don't pika-shock me! The Spellplague stuff made me lose interest! I'm glad they reversed it!

whole widget
#

Yeah, the Spellplague was... a hot mess.

stark ginkgo
# gilded shale I think Cormyr and the Dalelands was more apt if we're talking present day. Myna...

I really liked that example because both were not bad kingdoms or governments. Its a lot like Ta'illistm and Ta'vaalor in a lot of ways (though I would argue they are more politically aligned in an already existing elven nation) but the PLAYERS of Ta'illistm have clearly said hey...I don't want to be a part of Ta'vaalor I want TI stuff I don't care about TV...not all of them but some, and I think that is a fine position to take.

Its ok to want your town to be separate from the neighbor town. I imagine if people started going over to TI from TV and saying "were the most populated city state (when did that happen?!) we have the giant airship fleet...also you may have heard of a little thing called the Legion the most amazing military in the game...now you will be annexed" it would go over EXTREMELY poorly.....it is a hilarious joke though...

gilded shale
#

The present-day status of the elven nations is an odd one. And I joke about TV annexing TI (I hope people realize it's a joke) but that's just kind of how it is. Honestly, I don't think I know of any imperial players who strongly feel that the empire should annex or otherwise hold dominion over the Landing. I think it's just been driven into the ground as a threat by this point. It's like the shark was jumped, and then Arthur Fonzarelli kind of chuckled and said, "Wanna see me circumnavigate the globe with this next one?" And if I were an active imperial player I think I'd probably feel that, too.

#

I enjoy the side of the Empire portrayed by the Malwinds. And I like that ~~Cormyr ~~the Empire has given up Semberholme the Wyrdeep and recognized its sovereignty. It'll be interesting to see where that goes.

#

||Especially since it happens to be close to the Nalfein border, which I'm sure has absolutely nothing to do with that point of the Accords at all. Nope.||

stark ginkgo
#

Wheres Alosakas new map I could have sworn it was more northernly...Wyrdeep that is

gilded shale
#

Summon the head cartographer! @wet coyote

stark ginkgo
#

Found it!

Turamzyr_color_preview.png
wet coyote
#

dabu. I'm supposed to update that with the new Wyrdeep stuff

eager charm
#

There's a little bit of Highmount and Trauntor in the way, yes.

inland quest
gilded shale
#

(BUT I DON'T THINK MOST IMPERIAL PLAYERS FEEL STRONGLY ABOUT MAINTAINING THAT)

inland quest
#

there's something contradictory about capitalizing your whole parenthentical

wet coyote
#

#1196189488808992829 message This is the first message in this thread. Can someone pin it so I don't have to spend 15 minutes scrolling back to the beginning next time?

gilded shale
#

U CAP ME I CAP U ilu tho ❤️

inland quest
stark ginkgo
#

Discord needs a go to first post feature

inland quest
wet coyote
inland quest
#

I wouldn't venture to say what most Imperial players think. there are certainly characters who advocate strongly for the maintaining of the protectorate, which is fine by me

gilded shale
#

Hehe, I agreed with Dendum. Hehe weird. Yeah, I'm sure there are. I can only speak to my own experience

inland quest
#

probably nobody ever comes to see teveriel and say "hey it's very important that the empire maintains the subjugation of the landing" because teveriel would probably be like "what's a landing"

gilded shale
#

Tev knows the Landing. Tev was created before we could go to the EN!

inland quest
#

oh right!

eager charm
#

Whether or not someone holds dominion or has an established protectorate status IC doesn't change the fact that this thread's purpose and main points boil down to treating other players with respect and civility, understanding that we're all paying subscribers here to have fun and that fun cannot come at the expense of others, and that we're all better off when we communicate maturely.

inland quest
#

man, connedale is in such a weird place now

gilded shale
#

But I like to communicate immaturely via memes and Coheed and Cambria lyrics.

inland quest
#

well, I think the main purpose of the thread was actually to say that I think conflict is an important part of roleplay that I hope doesn't get shuffled away or shut down, which I think the GMs basically agreed with, which I am glad about

stark ginkgo
inland quest
#

that was the conversation that led to the creation of the thread!

gilded shale
#

Yeah. Even the originator of that question from the Illistim meeting (shout out to my homie Lucrecea) wanted to end all conflict.

stark ginkgo
rich hawk
#

Oh...NOW I gittit...dis is da place fer eberyone to chatter all at once! Where's da place to complain bout Pukk smoochin me?

vagrant oar
#

Leafi used to go super hard after Ta'Vaalor and wish it to be destroyed because of the NPC shopkeeper messaging in the area. She eased up by... either 5121 or 5119 (I forget), when she was met with a warm reception by various merchants showing respect to her 5117 Festival of the Fallen win.

It's actually super easy to change her stance since second chances are a core facet of her character--I mean, three of her favorite people (NPCs) in the Landing story are Tyrrax, Faireve, and Samfelt--but Elidal has managed not to clear an extremely low bar.

Thus abruptly concludes my ramble that became directionless after I forgot where I was going with it.

gilded shale
#

DWI. I want to make a joke about Dwight from The Office, but I'm not sure it'd be considered appropriate.

#

I'm getting mixed signals

inland quest
#

I would agree that after the main purpose of the thread was fulfilled there were an additional 12,000 posts

wet coyote
#

I'm amazed how many thousands of pages this thread extends considering there's a one-minute timer on posts and it has only existed for three days

gilded shale
#

We are passionate people, Alosaka. My OC is srs bsns pls don't steal

stark ginkgo
#

Its also been an extremely COLD three days

wet coyote
#

Oh yeah, and the Wyrdeep isn't really near Ta'Nalfein. Circling back to that

gilded shale
#

East Tennessee has snow and it's six Moon Pies deep. SIX. To quote Lylia, we don't even put this much ice in our sweet tea

wet coyote
#

What was the point of this thread, anyway? Do we want more conflict or less?

gilded shale
#

There are conflicting (lol) views on that point.

eager charm
#

It was to discuss conflict. Valid points were made and a consensus reached backed by actual staff.

inland quest
#

We want better conflict

wet coyote
#

I have ideas for conflicts if we need them. Really good ideas!

gilded shale
#

I can agree with that. Better conflict. Oh god, I feel an Alosaka story coming on

fathom quest
#

A few of the GMs said at OOC Town meetings that they were trying to get away from conflict in storylines and Tikba said they like conflict and Thandiwe got upset at them because people have been emailing her complaining about conflict and then she made this thread

inland quest
#

that's probably not how I would have shorthanded things haha

gilded shale
#

Well.. Hang on a sec. Lol

stark ginkgo
inland quest
#

I do like conflict though

#

I'll own that part

wet coyote
#

Ghezresh returns to Elanthia after losing his stronghold on Caligos Isle. He reemerges from the sands of the Sea of Fire in his new form, a molten camel that whispers seductive lies into the ears of all who come seeking his blessing. A Cult of the Camel forms in Solhaven and seeks to blockade access to the Sanctum of Scales, where a blind prophetess fortells the discovery of a new paid festival that will destroy Ghezresh forever. Players can choose to aid the Cult, or the alliance of druids who assemble to cleanse the sands of his evil plague.

keen pelican
# vagrant oar Leafi used to go super hard after Ta'Vaalor and wish it to be destroyed because ...

Peri fairly disliked Ta'Vaalor after being exiled during the GSS for their rejection of western forces and calling many of Onoir, including Tebon, one of his good friends at the time Ordlyn. Peri slapped the Ta'vaalorian captain in a challenge to duel, then ate a 26 swing mstrike to death before being thrown out.

I don't think he stepped foot in Ta'Vaalor again until I came back, partially being invited by those of the Legion back to take part in events, culminating in King Qalinor approaching him to ask him about his whiskey and tobacco like old chums. It was quite surreal.

He has since found a new liking for Ta'Vaalor, so I understand where you're coming from there.

fathom quest
#

And then a bunch of people got real weird here about the usual stuff

inland quest
#

how much MOC do you need to do a 26 swing mstrike

wet coyote
#

26 mobs, or 26 strikes on one mob?

inland quest
#

it sounds like they were all on perigourd!

keen pelican
stark ginkgo
wet coyote
#

It feels suspicious that he would have exactly enough MOC to drop Peri to zero health

gilded shale
honest meadow
inland quest
#

at that point it's probably infinite

gilded shale
hollow frigate
wet coyote
#

Oh, and there was the never-realized conflict of the forest gnomes and their infernal honey engines. I feel like the ball got dropped on that during the whole flood storyline. Like, "Here's a flood, that's exciting!" But what would've made it a lot more exciting was investigation and subsequent conflict over the morality of a gnomish hive-mind plotting a slow emergence from the Lasimor forests outside Ta'Vaalor.

stark ginkgo
inland quest
gilded shale
#

The AIRBORNE cavalry >)

inland quest
#

is it your theory that every other species is just kiramon in different outfits

wet coyote
#

I mean, kind of suspicious that an Aelotoi is asking that question. Any other species, more like?

honest meadow
#

Something something bees.

wet coyote
#

Also I pitched the infernal forest gnome honey engine well before the Hive was revealed.

gilded shale
#

The cool part of the Yaserenila storyline (for me) was the acknowledgment that Ta"Vaalor encompasses more than just the elves of Ta'Vaalor. There's a stewardship there, and a recognition of the Yasrenila as the caretakers of Neartofar.

#

Also, bees, yes

west moss
gilded shale
wet coyote
#

Whew, found it: #taʼvaalor message

gilded shale
#

Listen, Saka

wet coyote
#

(waits one minute for Teveriel's timer to expire)

gilded shale
#

That honey is 100% kosher, I've been assured by the Yasrenila Greengair's matriarch

#

(Putting the YAS in Yasrenila, what a queen)

stark ginkgo
#

I would be ok with the Greengair becoming a gnomish hive mind and us having to tragically wipe them out....

gilded shale
#

Would you prefer a story revolving around the Angryhomies?

#

There are no shortage of forest gnomes calling the EN home!

stark ginkgo
#

I said it would be unfortunate....wait no I said tragic

wet coyote
#

Decrepit ships bearing the standard of sunken-Kezmon begin plying the waters outside Wehnimer's Landing. Amos proposes a joint venture between his company and volunteers from the Landing to board and seize one of the vessels and plunder its time-lost riches. Opposing him is Elidal and the Darkstone Barony, which knows from dark experience the horrors of delving into Kezmon's past.

Player conflict on the high seas!

gilded shale
#

Dendum, we share this burden. We both invoked Alosaka's name.

stark ginkgo
wet coyote
#

You get stories!

gilded shale
#

Tev abhors them. My Ardenai thinks he's hilarious. Conflict.

vagrant oar
# wet coyote Decrepit ships bearing the standard of sunken-Kezmon begin plying the waters out...

Ironically...

We last saw Pylasar in-game in 5119 when he was sent off to investigate the disappearance of Kezmon Isle, then the Chronomage Chrysamber who sent him lost track and assumed he disappeared like everyone else she had tried in the past to solve the mystery. An OOC vignette would later reveal that Pylasar's alive and now somehow a ship captain in charge of a whole seafaring crew, though our characters still don't know that.

So this hypothetical sounds entirely plausible.

stark ginkgo
vagrant oar
#

It's been years and I'm honestly shocked he hasn't come back yet... heh.

wet coyote
#

We have enough joke NPCs now

THERE, HOW's THIS FOR CONFLICT

stark ginkgo
wet coyote
#

Raistlin? Fisban?

gilded shale
#

Fistandantilus. Who was also Raistlin. Or something.

vagrant oar
#

It's true we have a lot of joke NPCs floating around. Faireve, Jeshiah, Larsya, Tyrrax, Enisius, Elidal.

inland quest
#

I genuinely assumed this whole time pylasar was dead

stark ginkgo
gilded shale
#

Dragonlance is tainted in my mind forever thanks to that abysmal animated film.

wet coyote
#

Should've stopped after three books

smoky glacier
inland quest
#

Also why did you put jeshiah in that list

vagrant oar
#

Because he's hilarious! A character can be legendary and also hilarious!

stark ginkgo
#

Lol I meant Fistandantilus/Raistlin

gilded shale
stark ginkgo
wet coyote
#

Oh I liked Jeshiah. Yes, he was funny, but wasn't that infuriating, "Yuck yuck, look at me! I'm a completely serious NPC who can't stop doing the funnies!" ala Pylasar, the Lich King, Faireve, etc. It's the dissonance that gets me with those sorts of NPCs

gilded shale
#

Oh yeah, my bad. But we already agreed once, so..?!

vagrant oar
#

I miss Barnom. 😢 Excited for whenever he finishes doing whatever he's doing in Lich's Landing off-screen.

gilded shale
#

All of this conflict just because Dendum has never tasted the Yasrenila Greengair's divine honey

stark ginkgo
#

I went there once near the end....despite rumors to the contrary I don't particulary go out and seek conflict

smoky glacier
gilded shale
#

Did you drink the honey? serious Regis Philbin face Did you partake, sir?

wet coyote
#

Subverting expectations is the heart of comedy. But they're not subverting anything -- I fully expect it from them at this point. Barnom's classic "I'm an evil lich who'se going to enslave you all! Oops, my finger fell off! Who wants to eat some disgusting food at my feast? Oh, why don't you like me anymore? Yuck yuck!"

No one's like, "Oh, here's Pylasar! I can't wait to see him be a super-competent magister and move the plot forward in a meaningful way."

gilded shale
#

Barnom made me think of that lich from Order of the Stick. Which isn't a bad thing really

vagrant oar
#

Wait, who doesn't like Barnom? Dude's successfully negotiated with the Landing and the Hendoran outpost at this point. He's a master diplomat!

stark ginkgo
#

I dont think Barnom and Pylasar should ever be in the same story at the same time and I like Pylasar more...so Barnom must die...CONFLICT

gilded shale
#

CONFLICT

wet coyote
#

I just can't deal with the dissonance they require. Barnom is an inveterate jokester who can't help but try to make people laugh, but his current incarnation was resurrected through blood magic that required the slaughter of hundreds of innocent townspeople at the hands of Vlashandra's bladed flesh golems.

hollow frigate
#

(Barnom's already dead. Undead)

stark ginkgo
vagrant oar
#

I await the day we work with Barnom, Tyrrax, and Quinshon simultaneously to battle Grishom.

gilded shale
#

King Tyrnian was objectively a better and more effective king than Qalinor, even and especially from the standpoint of welcoming commerce of goods and ideas from the West. CONFLICT

wet coyote
#

There is a certain unity of tone that proper stories require and some NPCs just take that entire concept and chuck it in the outhouse whenever they show up. As soon as I hear their voices on the amunet I immediately log off.

stark ginkgo
gilded shale
#

I wish the Landing would utilize the Realm function of ESP more often. CONFLICT.

stark ginkgo
vagrant oar
#

I'd at least consider switching to Realm if the Landing had capped hunting, but it doesn't, so it can generally be assumed that a ton of Landing characters are elsewhere when stories start for the night. So I stick to General for the sake of inclusivity.

inland quest
#

I think tonal variation is an important skill! CONFLICT

gilded shale
#

Why are we agreeing so much tonight, Dendum?

stark ginkgo
#

Great Ideas are just great ideas.

gilded shale
#

Did you and Celothor bond that much over a shared passion of snowboarding?

inland quest
#

tyrnian betrayed the aelotoi and that is why he will never have a material that is an anagram of his name

vagrant oar
#

Just give it enough Ebon Gates, though...

gilded shale
wet coyote
#

What about a palindrome of his name?

inland quest
#

THAT IS NOT HOW PALINDROMES WORK

gilded shale
#

Nainryt. Wait wat

stark ginkgo
#

Rinanty: A dull metal that is often used in disposable metal workings...it certainly can be dyed

wet coyote
#

YOU'RE THINKING TOO LINEARALLY

inland quest
vagrant oar
#

Well, I mean, a palindrome of his name could be tyrniannainryt or tyrnianainryt.

hollow frigate
#

Still easier to say than xaxi... xavi... death metal.

wet coyote
#

Nainryt: the cast-off shavings of more valuable metals left on the workshop floor by the lathe operator

gilded shale
#

Xazkateddyruxpin. Something. FINNIA IS THE ENEMY

stark ginkgo
#

Trynain: A mediocre metal that is best when it dyes early. (I have no real negative opinion of this NPC)

wet coyote
#

Nyrtian: An adulterated alloy of tin that fragments before being struck by the smith's hammer.

stark ginkgo
#

The real purpose of this thread was to determine that Finnia would be best served by being used as the source of the new, persistent, global enemy....armed with xaclwhateveritscalled

gilded shale
#

They apparently have cat people. And frankly, that's enough for me

#

Let us all unite against the common neko threat

torpid pagoda
#

wait, what

stark ginkgo
#

man the Prydaen would be such an amazingly unexpected global enemy it would be amazing

gilded shale
torpid pagoda
#

I can't decide if the shan would be allied with the Finnian cat people or see them as their mortal enemies

keen pelican
#

The latter, as I'd like to fight alongside Shan.

gilded shale
#

Oh wait. Both GS4 and DR use Elanthian. You know what I mean, though. XP

wet coyote
#

We need more Shan NPCs, imo. Underutilized.

gilded shale
#

Well, they seem to be pretty local to Vornavis. So far, anyway

hollow frigate
#

(I heard Qalinor is secretly 3 Shan in an elf suit.)

west moss
#

I prydaen invasion would be short lived. One would start wrapping their tail around the nearest person and before you know it they'd all be distracted with tail verbs and purring in a pile. Invasion over.

has obvious DragonRealms baggage

grand compass
gilded shale
#

And they're all drunk, to boot

gilded shale
harsh tundra
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Also Barnom is one of my least favorite NPCs, so you won't often see Stormy around (because it's very easy for me to nope out of the Barnom & Bros Circus events 😂)

stark ginkgo
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I think we can safely say there are some tools that exist that we players can use to limit conflict, I think we can safely say there are some tools GM’s need to employ better, such as an OOC whisper that might be able to limit conflict. I think reaching out to anyone potentially negatively impacted is a good idea.

I think it is clear some people do not want organizational conflict in the game and some do. Space should probably be carved out for both. I am honestly rather meh on the subject myself, I neither want it as much as Tikba or dislike at much as others. 

There are characters out there that increase tension, and can lead to individual conflicts, characters who belittle other characters, derisive characters, characters who put up counterpoints to arguments, characters who scream about Krolvin, characters who don't like elves, characters who see the empire as an invading, characters who see the landing as a place in need of taming......I don't think any of them are wrong but they do exist on an individual level and seem to exist just fine. I don't want to silence any of them, I like watching those characters. I like interacting with them. I am self reflective enough to include myself in that list but also aware enough to include some of the others on here and some of those asking for less conflict.

1 of 2...give me a minute...```
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We have shown ourselves to be the most open to communication, allowing anyone in our discord to talk and allowing anyone in our DM’s to talk. Members of the thorns constantly reach out…whether or not anyone wants to respond is up to them and they have every right not to…but we do try.

We generally have stayed in our lane, and for the most part…the other side also behaved better as the year has gone on. Though this is entirely related to in game activity and discord shenanigans continue from both sides. I applaud the growth on both sides hopefully we can keep that positive momentum going as we both continue to exist and play in the game.
eager charm
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(that's true, he did reach out and I did recommend those things)

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(MHO events are a lot of work and easily derailed)

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(Fifteen years of running them and they just never stop being a nerve-wracking mess, and it's always right when you're running a big one that your rabbit decides they want to have a pre-GI stasis episode)

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The actual feast is Critical Care.

wary raven
stark ginkgo
nocturne delta
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I learned that unwanted CvC can turn into unwanted PvP pretty quickly, and it makes sense. It's like some characters at a DnD table having a conflict, then you look up and ask the person across from you, "What the heck?". From that perspective, I feel that the difference between IC and OOC comes down, not to a skill issue, but the real world consequence of, "Do I want to lose a real world friend over this staff of doom?". And I have to really sit and think about it. I try to let people have their staves of destruction, I think. There are aspects of my characters that I absolutely refuse to part with or compromise without having an exit ramp, so to speak. I this instance, the person who really wants that staff of ultimate power, and the player that is a paladin with oaths to stop staves of power are both... correct.

It then transcends into what we are willing to live with after the conflict in character, to keep on playing, and if we end up not playing at the same table because we keep snarking, getting mad at one another, or generally are not having fun. It's the responsibility of the GM, often, to keep the group from imploding and that's another discussion. Because GMs are human too, and see things in various ways.

At this point, I'm willing to leave the session with some other players. I have personally reached out to many different people, offering to try to help. I admit that I had the straw that breaks the camel's back moment a couple days ago. I was stewing over being called names, and painted with a brush of an antagonist when that is everything that I have tried NOT to be, to the point of adjusting how I play at the table.

Then, this morning, I paused and thought, "How am I representing my factions by engaging in these dramas?" I think not well. Would I be causing people to choose to play elsewhere than in my sandbox because they see "both sides" of this argument? AM I being seen as unreasonable, a liar, or someone who starts conflict - when that is exactly the thing I am arguing against? It's better to just not engage, I think, and let the GM at the table either handle it or just walk away. There are

Thank you to those that have made an effort to reach out, even the ones that I disagree with. There is literally a proverb about not arguing in such a way, and I'm just gonna... not. I'll have conflict with those that do it in a way I can live with, and leaves me that exit ramp to keep playing. Otherwise, the GM tools are a thing. Best luck to everyone. I'm gonna take my own advice and mute this thread.

gusty frost
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5000 messages, not once is someone reminded to buy deeds. That changes today.

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I haven't got to read all of the messages, but I'm assuming all of this still relates to the same topic that has been circling for the last year and a half. Which is fine. Hopefully with time and action conflict can become less of a bleed over, and more of a game enhancement and memory builder. But I will say a few things on at least aspects I'm involved in. Mainly, Cross into Shadows vs North by Northwest.

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I tried to re-create some of the magic I loved of Cross into Shadows with NxNW. I think there's some things, but I think rebottling some aspects did not work out, and failed in many ways. Hindsight, etc. Truthfully, now vs 10 years ago I just don't have the bandwidth I did as a father/dad/worker/handsome guy to play as often or as long as I did during Shadows, which honestly helped with a lot of the faction building, situation management, spreading the love and attention and making groups of players feel more welcomed and invested because everyone got a chance to work towards their goal, even if in opposite of the heroes's or villain's goals.

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That's been a very challenging aspect to me from the GM side of things, because I want more factions involved, I want conflicting thoughts and perspectives, and I want them to be able to see paths. There were many smaller sessions of smaller groups and I think that also helped boost community interactions and RP.

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But conflict will always exist in my storylines, I'll definitely always assess and reconsider how it's done, but conflict was high in Cross into Shadows. But it also felt different. People responded better to it, people kept it more in-game. Maybe it's because Discord makes it so easy to not turn off the lights and step away, who knows. If I had to get super deep, I would argue that our world and humanity in general has less tolerant of people in general as a society. We're taught everyone is right and...if everyone is right then no one is right, heh. But alas, no one signed up for a Ted Talk today.

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But I can see it, and sense it, and I can definitely tell players are enjoying themselves less in at least some of my storyline aspects, then they were 10 years ago. It has gotten me to begin to reflect and reassess somethings, and lessons can always be learned, but I will always challenge the player community to strive to take less offense, and don't always take things personal, and never stop trying to have fun for yourself, and others around you, and always work to try to be inclusive. Big asks, not always easy, but we shouldn't stop trying player and GMs alike.

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Oh and also, xoxo. Buy deeds.