Conflict

[slim parrot]

Gemstone's bigger than my character. I'm just a squirrel trying to get a nut.

[gilded shale]

What? You throw potlucks and run a tavern? How am I just now hearing about this

[lusty kettle]

So, again, I know nothing about this but I would make sure we are always reflecting on HOW, HOW OFTEN, and HOW MUCH we display opposition. I can't give specific advice or anything because I don't know the situation and I don't think it should be rehashed. There's just a lot to consider whenever there's conflict.

[slim parrot]

I agree, and again, I thank you for your stories. They've been....great.

[lusty kettle]

Honestly, we should also be reflecting on how, how often, and how much we show pros, too.

[stark ginkgo]

Ok...but most of us ignore them and leave them alone out of fear of OOC retaliation and so the answer is we rarely run into each other at all anymore.

[vagrant oar]

I still struggle to understand. Unless my character's not saying anything of substance, whatever she says is opposition to something.

[slim parrot]

CORRECT!!

[eternal needle]

It seems like the feeling is mutual to some extent based on what I've read from the Landing channel. And maybe that's for the best for everyone?

[lusty kettle]

Well, I'm going back to my vacation (again). The best advice I can give is to truly be introspective in these situations. Like you have to be willing to see all points of view.

[slim parrot]

More Shteve!

[lusty kettle]

OKay, before I go back to my vacation, I've seen several snipes in here over the past few minutes, and we need to retain a respectful conversation, please.

[tranquil rune]

Queatus never so much as spoke a single disrespectful word to any imperial character. Anybody is free to challenge me on that.

[stark ginkgo]

I think we may be landingizing this conversation...new word..just invented it.

[inland quest]

yes

hahaha

there's been a lot of that

[void tinsel]

My character is deeply pro-death-ray, but she acknowledges and understands the reasons why other people may not be. Even if it baffles her. "I mean...why even have it if we do not use it!?"

[tranquil rune]

Well, that is where a lot of this is coming from I think, is it not?

[inland quest]

tikba will fire the death ray so others can maintain their innocence

🙏

[stark ginkgo]

It is...and if we are being honest its probably the bulk of the genesis of this topic...but the topic is broader.

[slim parrot]

RIP Griflets

[gilded shale]

Light of Judgment vibes

[inland quest]

in fairness, those babies were being real jerks

[slim parrot]

Aint' someone wear one like a necklace?

[eternal needle]

it is and it isn't. There are communities who like conflict and those that don't. And the game isn't one size fit all and not everything has to be for everyone.

[inland quest]

that didn't really happen!

I am suing alosaka for slander

who do I know in the landing who practices law

[slim parrot]

People just rolling with a griflet ascot like a gold chain. Looking like a frontier Flava Flav.

[lusty kettle]

And honestly, this is why I keep stressing that it's important to make sure other people are having fun with your style of RP. It doesn't mean you can't do your style of RP, but it may be most beneficial to make sure you are flexible and use good judgment when dealing with people who do not share your cup of tea. Regardless of conflict or not.

We're an old game. We have a small community, and it doesn't serve us to not be thoughtful of others.

We all have our ways we like to play, but it's still important to respect the other ways.

[hollow frigate]

After we talked about this stuff in the IMT channel a few days ago, naturally, over night I had a few thoughts and came up with all kinds of things I wished I said.

Disclaimer #1 - I can only speak for myself and make my own observations as a player of an Imperial PC.

Most of the change I want to demand comes from the GMs. We want different kinds of stories told about the Empire... because for the most part, our IC actions, as PCs, have not been able to move the needle on the depiction of the Empire... which, given that we're talking about a literal decade... it's left myself (and I assume others) feeling just kind of dejected. It does not hit me as hard personally, because I'm honestly not trying to play the Lawful Good sort. (But it makes me sad to see my friends sad.)

I think the IC/OOC stuff gets far too tangled. I have had precious few IC problems... outside of broad storyline strokes. But I think for some people, it's a category of RP they've tried to bolster for years... but it gets so disheartening to only get negative feedback IC. So at that point it isn't so much about conflict as it is about just wearing you down.

OOCly, I think where I get personally frustrated is that sometimes it can FEEL like it's difficult to get acknowledgement of the good in these OOC discord conversations. The Empire will never be universally bad or good, but always a complicated mix of both.

But these conversations often get so polarized that it's hard to acknowledge that more neutral truth... because our character standpoints often blur so much with what we're communicating as players. (To be continued... post cooldown.)

[tranquil rune]

That's fair, OOCly I can acknowledge that there is plenty of good in the empire also, and probably I fail to do so.

[hollow frigate]

So one thing that would make ME (and I only speak for me) sometimes feel better about this conflict, in the OOC sense, is somtimes hearing that, "My character dislikes the Empire for reasons XYZ, though I acknowledge that ABC also happened."

And I think... sometimes... the GMs can seem like they're overcorrecting because some of us have said, "I've been sad for 10 years," and they realize that the needle needs to be pushed way over in the other direction... which of course can sort of seem like cheerleading for the Empire. Or the players calling for just good is more to counterbalance the bad... but it's going to take a LOT of good to bring the needle back to the middle.

I have no doubt that just feels like a deluge of "EMPIRE GOOD, SEE!"

And... I have no idea how to conclude these thoughts and I'm starting to feel rambly. So I think I'll just stop here for a moment.

[void tinsel]

They do get very polarized, and I own my part in that at times. But it frustrates me when I see other players not owning their part in it. Do we really not understand the difference between a character referring to Imperial occupation and a player saying it? I think we do! We're all very smart people here, all highly literate, or we'd be off playing something a lot more brainless than this game where we type at each other all the time.

My character is not actually Pro empire, or at least not this empire, and she has a lot of unease about that proximity. But she kind of got aligned that way by accident because I felt bad about how my friends who play Imperial characters we're getting absolutely dragged over who their characters were, not what they did. So I probably feel some extra heartburn over this particular issue because the position my character takes in it is a bit unnatural for her. It just felt so one-sided, and I hated that. Mean spirited and one-sided.

[hollow frigate]

I appreciate that. It's easy to just really speak to our character viewpoints, even if the conversation is OOC.

[inland quest]

I kind of said earlier in the Icemule conversation that I want to understand more what people want in terms of "getting over the Evil Empire." Because I feel like there is a gap there -- I don't think what people want is for me to get on the discord and say "the Empire is great!" What they want is probably more about interactions in game, right, not actually about changing player views. And I think sometimes that the GM commentary about "actually the Empire is good" stems from trying to figure out this gap -- they've made a lot of Imperial good guys. Why isn't it creating the player response that people want?

my super duper ultra hot take is, I think the NxNW NPCs are mostly "good guys." Not incredibly competent good guys, but essentially benevolent. We even got a vignette that showed us explicitly that the brothers Dhenin want to do a good job!

[vagrant oar]

Okay, wait, maybe I'm on the verge of understanding something here, but I'm not quite there.

Are we saying we should stick to or are we saying we should avoid talking about our interpretations as players in an OOC context? As opposed to talking about our characters' interpretations in an OOC context.

(Or are we saying something else entirely and I'm actually still clueless as to what we're even discussing?)

[void tinsel]

It is so, so hard for GM's to steer that perception that I don't even know if they can. It really kind of needs to be the player base doing it en masse.

[stark ginkgo]

I think an expansion storyline was bound to create conflict, and that the heavy handed approach coming out of the global team...at the same time...made it worse.

[tranquil rune]

From my perspective what has happened is that I get no IC response to basically anything anti-imperial, which whatever, you can't force people to engage, and I wouldn't want to. But what I did get was a large OOC response saying how what my character says and does is just objectively wrong because of this thing the empire did. And then we end up just getting into an OOC argument about IC stuff.

[lusty kettle]

The one-sided remark there harkens back to what I've said about making sure everyone is having fun. It may not be the intention to make it one-sided, but if there's feedback that it feels that way--that's a great point of topic to reflect on. Why does it feel that way? What can be done to stay true to your character while still leaving breathing room for others?

[hollow frigate]

I think part of it is time. There's been SO MUCH negative for so long, that one storyline can't restore the balance.... and memory can be long. And what we generally get now is a mix of both good and bad, which is how it should be... but because of the volume of bad, the good sort of gets lost in the historical noise.

[lusty kettle]

So, generally speaking, again without saying anyone did or didn't do anything because I am an outsider to this situation... A LACK of IC response may also be saying something.

Conflict avoidance when something is uncomfortable (or in the case of a game, not fun) is super common.

And this could be contributing to why things are moving OOC instead of being resolved IC.

[void tinsel]

I'm going to give a positive example of something I have seen in a player driven shift. Solhaven always had a reputation as being a good place for role play, but it felt a little hard to break into. I feel that over the course of Nations on the brink, and with a lot of interaction with people who frequent the town, it has kept its role-play credentials intact while opening that out to a wider world. I wish I could bottle that and Define it and understand exactly how it has happened that way, but I really love it.

That has been supported, of course, by GM interaction. But a lot of it is just the way the players have been, and I appreciate it so much that it deserves mention even in a conflict thread. Even if my phone keeps trying to turn the name into salt Haven when I say it out loud.

[grand compass]

Autocorrect is the worst.

[hollow frigate]

I think this is an incredly valid point. Sometimes... one just does not want to fight..

And I think big group events can be super intimidating. It's like you walk into the room and you think everyone is staring at you.

More 1 on 1 conversations between characters can probably help with this.

[tranquil rune]

Yeah, I get it, a group of people doesn't like it when you RP a resistance group to their country of allegiance. That's what it boils down to. So just don't do that?

[stark ginkgo]

That would hold water if the other side wasn't constantly engaging in conflict causing behavior and then complaining when conflict started.

I think we can all agree if you play a lornite you agree to play a bad guy, well no I don't even believe that but lets say it was true for the sake of argument. If you were to create this lornite, then preach lornite theology in the center of town then get pushback THEN run to discord complaining about conflict...that would better reflect the behavior of empire players than this idea they are some passive victim in an unkind world. At least that is the perspective some of us have on it right now

I have seen them go into Icemule during the winter war tell the locals how they should accept Ta'vaalor because TV is so powerful and then get mad when they were chased out (I wasn't in that conversation I was just hiding which is why I am using it as I can view it objectively). They were not chased out for being imperials they were chased out for coming in telling people how to respond to issues.

[smoky glacier]

https://tenor.com/view/when-i-lose-my-swich-stare-worried-gif-15090979

[inland quest]

yeah, I have definitely had more fun in my political arguments doing it one on one

I still treasure the time lylia politely implied she would have me imprisoned if she were in charge

[lusty kettle]

Not at all. You can absolutely RP that. I would just consider how that is being done, and consider whether or not it is a fun environment for other people involved.

[void tinsel]

Yes. I flee from people when they're impossible to RP with, or I mentally check out and "gray rock" them.

[tranquil rune]

I mean, the other part of that is I am totally fine with being ignored. But I wasn't ignored, I was ignored IC and OOC pressured to change my RP.

[lusty kettle]

I do not think this is an accurate portrayal of how that happened.

[stark ginkgo]

...were you in the room? ...im like 90% sure I have it logged.......

[void tinsel]

...except when it's the best. My phone mangles things downright artfully at times.

[tranquil rune]

I was there, that was pretty accurate. The message did not go over well.

[eternal needle]

Are you guys talking about the NPCs?

[lusty kettle]

At times, yes. Maybe not for that particular conversation, but I think the whole of the problem with the conflict cannot be boiled down to that. I'll be quite honest, even on my own NPCs, I felt incredibly unwelcome participating in a storyline as a scheduled NPC.

[void tinsel]

Was that the time a Landing merchant came to the gates?

[lusty kettle]

It was the single most uncomfortable situation I have ever been in as a GM, and my NPC was encouraging peace between the people, not conflict.

[grave badge]

Wow, that was a looong read. So many times I wanted to reply but then the conversation would shift. Now that I'm all caught up (for the moment), I'll just mention my general take on the conversation as a whole is that cooperative story telling is different than story telling. That seems like it should be obvious, but a lot of the whole "antagonist/protagonist" conversation above seems to overlook that cooperative storytelling is conflict by nature... perspectives are rarely ever the same, and it's up to each individual to decide how conflicting another character's perspective can be before that classification shifts for them. It won't be the same for everyone.

[stark ginkgo]

That is not the only instance of imperial agency in the current storyline it was just one, they chose to build the walls over opposition, they chose to escort imperial shipwrecked supplies over protecting the town, at least once they said to the new baron we should be hauled off in chains for our opposition, they had the sunthone's guard kick us out of an escort for the high crime of asking for a vote.....I am not saying ALL imperials I am just pointing out how this isn't a one sided conversation despite how some are trying to portray it.

And they certainly should be allowed to make these correct IC choices in game...in almost every instance it follows with what their character would do in any given situation. Just don't pretend we have one side standing on a wall cowering and the other causing conflict. This is not and has never been close to the situation in the West.

[glacial moth]

Are you referring to an Icemule storyline? I wasn't sure if this was continuing off of your comments to Dendum.

[tranquil rune]

Again, we are back to the fact that I don't think it is possible. For the record, we never harassed any imperial character, because we didn't want to force them into conflict. We wrote fliers and interacted with NPCs. The fliers never mentioned any character or group be name. If you wanna scroll up here you will see it said that we interrupted an election event and detailed a debate. That never happened. We never jumped out and made ourselves the center of attention at storyline events where we weren't specifically engaged by the NPCs. Nobody ever called anybody a lickspittle. Dendum called a guy a bootlicker in 2022, and we saw that it crossed a line and made sure it didn't happen again. There was one flier that called out the Gryphons, also before we came together as the Thorns, and we saw that crossed a line and it never happened again.

[lusty kettle]

Oh, I'm talking about TV, not imperial stuff.

I got confused because you mentioned TV and then imperials, and did not know what you meant. My bad. 🙂

No, I was not there for any imperial stuff. Carry on with your idea there. Sorry.

[tranquil rune]

And those are the bare facts, bring out your receipts if I am wrong.

[stark ginkgo]

oh yea...like I said I tried to do the peace thing in the Winter War...one step less than Opalina's but still..I tried...

[gilded shale]

I think I'm just confused as to who was saying to welcome Ta'Vaalor and who got chased out of where. Lol

[lusty kettle]

Yeah, the WW went a little too sideways there. I know some people were pushing for peace, too.

[eternal needle]

But this is what Raelee, Lylia, Shan and others are talking about. If your character is out there saying the Imperials are garbage, and they play an Imperial -- like even if it's not directed at them, they aren't really given a choice about like deciding if they are the villain in that narrative.

[gilded shale]

There were a whole lot of "them"s in that paragraph.

[stark ginkgo]

No I get it I was talking about imperials during the Winter War it could be confusing...complicated venn diagram

[inland quest]

How can a venn diagram be confusing it’s just a bunch of circles, the simplest shape

[hollow frigate]

(Venn diagrams are one of my favorite kinds of diagrams.)

[gilded shale]

There are Venn diagrams and then there's Pepe Silvia

[glacial moth]

Because some people decided that Icemule wasn't allowed to try to undo what had happened during a previous storyline. It was an odd response, but effective apparently.

[inland quest]

I don’t understand this. Could you make some kind of visual aid to explain?

[slim parrot]

Or as some like to call it, the two buttcheeks.

(You'd be surprised how students remember things).

[eager charm]

Pretty much. And then I as a player have to hear it. And hear it and hear it and hear it. God forbid I don't feel like playing the foil or someone's Big W gratification punching bag, that would be gatekeeping and ruin their fun.

[lusty kettle]

Perhaps effective in a specific way, but I think it was mostly ineffective, from a standpoint of being open and welcoming to roleplay for others.

[tranquil rune]

Yeah, this is absolutely true, but we never even said imperials are garbage! We talked about the empire as an entity and NPCs within the empire. If we said "Yo, you imperials, you all suck, personally, and we hate you on a personal level" I would be with you.

But if somebody is going to take offense when you say the empire itself is bad, then you can't oppose the empire without offending them.

[lusty kettle]

This feels liek one of those intention vs perception things I was talking about earlier. Consider it this way... Let's pretend someone who is not part of a group you identify with, starts nonstop badmouthing the group you identify with. Whether or not it's about you specifically.

[compact pagoda]

Let Casil return to his vacation, loz. Run away dude!

[lusty kettle]

A constructive conversation, sure. If it's TOO frequent or TOO much, how you are ultimately going to feel, being part of that group--even if it the comments are not about you?

[tranquil rune]

I mean, I think people badmouthed the Thorns in game non-stop.

[inland quest]

They still do!

[stark ginkgo]

Iskandr is awake it must be late

[lusty kettle]

I'm not saying people did or didn't, or that the group was even doing it too frequently or too much. Just posing thoughts.

This isn't about a specific group. This is a general thought about why conflict goes sideways.

When it's not our intention.

[hollow frigate]

Casil... by the way... I just want to say thank you. You've put a lot of effort into moderating this conversation and trying to illustrate what various people might be feeling. You've made some truly excellent points along the thread.

... especially since you're on vacation.

[gilded shale]

Casil is blessed with a lack of direct knowledge of western matters

[lusty kettle]

I literally have no idea what is going on. Anytime I had to go to something for NotB in Solhaven, I was like a deer in headlights.

[vagrant oar]

One thing the current track of this conversation is making me ponder... I've always tried to stay in my own lane, as it were, which is the Landing. I don't want to disrupt community dynamics, so it's only on rare occasion that my character will drop by Icemule and do anything more than listen in. (I'll note this is entirely a self-imposed and self-enforced thing. I know the players would be fine with my character showing up.)

The current Landing storyline is the first time I feel like I'm out of place in what's already been my wheelhouse. My character voices the same philosophies she always has, except the other characters used to not mind and now they very much mind. It's like one day people seemingly decided that the Landing's unique traits are not only irrelevant, but have always been irrelevant, and I already should have known this.

Edit: That took me way too long to think through and type, so by "current track" I was talking about Casil saying he felt unwelcome even on a visiting NPC. Heh.

[tranquil rune]

Yeah, I think Casil might be my new therapist. Thanks Casil!

[lusty kettle]

I've gone back to vacation like 5 times now I think.

[inland quest]

I feel a little like we're arriving back at the point that I worried about at the beginning. The storyline that's going on in the Landing is about Imperial expansion near the Landing. If I can't critique the Empire because people would feel attacked, then I can't really participate in the storyline. So this is a "rule of thumb" that pretty much locks out probably the majority of Landing characters.

[hollow frigate]

You might need a vacation to recover from the vacation

[lusty kettle]

I think you can CAN critique the Empire, though.

It's about how and how often and how much. It's a tough balance, particularly in a sitaution like this where many characters may be critiquing the empire.

So even if YOU aren't personally doing it a lot, an Imperial-background character may be hearing it from 15 different people every day.

That can get exhausting. When you want to come and play and everything in your PC's life is conflict.

I've been in that situation, where every time I went to certain events, I was embroiled immediately in conflict I was not intending to be part of, when I was just trying to participate in a storyline. First, I shut down and stopped interacting, then I just quit going to the events.

[inland quest]

yeah, I get that

[lusty kettle]

Because it felt like if I breathed funny, I somehow was caught up in conflict. I love conflict. I just need some times where it's not conflict. Particularly with people I am having conflict with.

[inland quest]

I have definitely seen situations where I felt like people were being much too aggressive in pushing conflict when I felt it was not really called for

[hollow frigate]

I think this is key. For most... it was never the one thing. It was a straw that finally broke the camel's back, after literal years.

If that interaction or incident happened in isolation, it probably wouldn't have caused any problems.

And on the flip side, I can understand how it could be so crushing for the other side, who hasn't been embroiled for so long and doesn't have the baggage personally... but baggage on the other side is still having an impact.

[inland quest]

and I agree that we all need downtime from it

[lusty kettle]

Since you can't control the other X amount of people who share your same opinions and may be bringing it up, it's hard to be on that side of the conflict. I get that. I play a contentious PC myself.

[glacial moth]

It sucks to be bogged down by the baggage of others. Ruins the whole game, and the ability to RP in creative ways.

[vagrant oar]

quietly deletes prewritten, pre-;aliased heel turn ACT messages about helping Sablo butcher goblin children while wearing a twisted, blood-splattered grin

[lusty kettle]

That's where the OOC communication comes in handy and also just trying to be aware of the general uh, mood of the room, as it were.

As someone who has more than once misread the vibe of a room... both as a GM and PC. LOL.

[lusty kettle]

Absolutely do not disagree with you here. The baggage sucks and makes things harder, and may be ruining your fun--but it also may be ruining the other person's fun if it's pushed TOO hard?

[honest meadow]

We can all agree that we’re fiercely protective of our characters and want to do what we think is best for them.

[lusty kettle]

It's just a balance and it's hard. And no one is ever perfect at it.

[honest meadow]

But that’s what keeps us playing.

[inland quest]

Listen, those children were ALSO being kind of jerks

[lusty kettle]

I absolutely get how difficult it is to play something that is generating conflict. And we want you to be able to do that. For sure. I would personally LOVE to be able to do more conflict as a GM, but I am admittedly hesitant because we have these rifts and differences and clearly we, as a community, have some trouble communicating through it sometimes.

[slim parrot]

Put my character to the ringer. I play because of what he might go through.

He's gone through some BAAAAAD stuff. He's come out stronger. Protection is one thing. But I'm down for the events that may help put his convictions to the test.

My 2 cents.

[stark ginkgo]

Well I think we can all look forward to the invasion of the Dominion of Tau (name pending) where we turn to TV for military aid and don't mind the fact that the evil town of Icemule might have some lich tricks up its sleeve.

[gleaming bison]

So as far as the empire part, I think a huge problem is the generalization of "the empire" it is basically made of a bunch of smaller countries and a wide wide variety of cultures. Being against the particular expansion of the nxnw storyline should be focused at hendor and jovery really which is whom orchestrated it all. Noone in vornavas probably even knew about it before it was announced.

Like there's huge swaths of different people in various baronies, some more good, some a lot less so.

[lusty kettle]

This is a really good point.

That is a pretty big generalization.

[compact pagoda]

I want my character to be utterly and completely destroyed by GMs 😆

[eternal needle]

Billing can do that too

[lusty kettle]

Noted.

[vagrant oar]

To be fair, there might have been a non-zero number of players who would have pulled a Madmountan and gone to Earlkiller Jovery in particular if given the opportunity. 🤣

But I don't think anyone would have gone after the Vornavis nobles, for example.

[slim parrot]

He's waiting for King Qalinor to give the order to have Yardie killed.

[stark ginkgo]

In previous stories that was actually more plausible, there have always been...various baronies with various interpretations. When Talador attacked some baronies were for it some were against. Same with Jant....same with Chaston v2.0, Sol has normally stood to the side or come in on the side of the landing. This time with it going all in, and somehow even having the emperor sign off on it, and Sol taking a more direct cheerleading role than normal.....I think that escalated things.

[lusty kettle]

Incoming personal 1v1 storyline where GM Casil destroys Iskandr's mental health slowly over time.

[glacial moth]

Yes. Which is why, especially playing the type of character I do, I reach out often to people. Or at least take time to feel them out if I don't know them before turning a spotlight on them. Sure, I'm human, I sometimes fumble, but the effort is made and the intention is good.

I've also, in doing so, run across a few people that hold a fair bit of sway that don't even realize this game is about RPing.

And I think a large portion of this (not all) can be boiled down to understanding that IC and OOC are not the same thing. For some, they don't know the difference. And so anything that happens IG is taken as an OOC attack on them personally.

I couldn't imagine being upset over someone for ANY type of RP they did. But that's just me. Maybe I have exceptionally thick skin. But I see a lot of people taking RP and talking about it with the emotions of someone who is describing a RL tragedy they suffered.

[compact pagoda]

I mean, people in Afghanistan aren't like "those Ohio people are nice but screw people from Indiana," they just hate America as a big thing

[lusty kettle]

Iskandr becomes the new monster buried in the bog.

[inland quest]

Those two statements belong together

[lusty kettle]

Right, and how do Americans feel about being hated that way?

[glacial moth]

Ohio people are nice 🙂

[lusty kettle]

We don't need to replicate real life.

[slim parrot]

No they aren't.

IT WAS PASS INTERFERENCE!

[lusty kettle]

We can be better than real life, thanks.

If real life world as a whole was so great, none of us would be here roleplaying.

Well, maybe some people would be. 🤣

[misty stream]

That's a pretty general statement with a lot of assumptions...

[slim parrot]

I think GS skirts to real life more than people let on. There's a believability there. Man, reading the lore, you gonna tell me there's no parallels in things?

But that doesn't mean the characters can be BETTER, that they can strive to do great things.

[compact pagoda]

I generally see Afghanistan's perspective?

[hollow frigate]

I think those differentiators would help in OOC conversation. Like I was saying previously... more acknowledgement of the mix of good and bad in OOC conversation would make me feel better.

If people say, "Jantalar bad!"... I'm not gonna argue with you.

If people say, "Empire bad!"... I'm like, "What'd Oire ever do other than raise sheep?"

And so OOCly speaking, when we say the Empire did a bad thing, it can paint people in a negative light who didn't even have anything to do with it.

Though ICly, I understand where a character may not differentiate between the various actors within the Empire.

[lusty kettle]

We all fumble.

Re: IC and OOC not the same thing... Yes, some people don't know the difference. And then yes, there's also people who do know the difference but are attached emotionally to their characters. This is actually super common with writers. However--even though IC and OOC are NOT the same thing, even people who know the difference... there's still a player BEHIND the character who should be having fun.

[void tinsel]

Casil made a great point earlier -- an outstanding one, in fact -- that each person may not realize what the others are contributing, so while you may think, "I'm not doing anything wrong in calling that person a [fill in the blank here]," someone else may have called them that and worse three other times today. Sometimes it's hard to remain aware of that. It's impossible to know, in fact, so if someone reacts harshly to what you think is a mild insult, consider that it might just be the last of a series.

Also, I don't think I have ever heard anyone express, IC or OOC, that any entity should be beyond criticism, including the Empire. We are grown-ups who surely understand the difference between the occasional sideswipe comment and relentless badgering about that character's allegiances. I'd feel pretty unhappy if everything was "GO HOME FAENDRYL" all the time. No one will hear my character's thoughts on Northwatch unless expressly asked because other people deserve to have fun with their stuff too. I don't know why the same courtesy cannot be afforded to other players' characters.

[slim parrot]

Strangely, people can be like, "Go home Faendryl!" to my character. I've gotten the looks. I've heard the comments.

I just play through it. I just strive to do more, and let them get to know me. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't.

Again, parallels to real life.

But I'll admit. Upbringing plays a major factor to it.

[lusty kettle]

It was tongue in cheek, I assure you.

[hollow frigate]

That's a valid point. I've really only really lost my temper once, that I recall, amongst all of this. The target of my ire did NOT deserve it...

But it was just the final straw after a whole lot of stuff. I felt terrible about it afterwards.

[void tinsel]

And that's fine for you, but other people may not want to play that way and will retreat from that. I will not chase someone down and get him or her to like me if they don't, for whatever reason. And more to the point, some of them are not worth my time to get to know in that way. Both are valid and do not need to be shamed as if only one is the "right" way to interact with others.

[lusty kettle]

I've definitely had that happen, too. And it's beyond the other person's control--they have no way of knowing, but it's still something to consider when someone reacts badly to something.

[eternal needle]

"No one will hear my character's thoughts on XYZ unless expressly asked because other people deserve to have fun with their stuff too. I don't know why the same courtesy cannot be afforded to other players' characters."

Knocked it out of the park

[glacial moth]

It feels as though some weaponize this a bit too much. "I'm not having fun with what that whole group of people are doing over there, so I want it ended now". In these cases, that person isn't overly worried about the group and the players behind those screens having fun or not. I agree it's hard to balance at times, but it shouldn't be made easy to say "I don't like this. Make it stop"

[slim parrot]

Oh rest assured, it's not chasing down anyone.

I can go in DEEP with this. But we don't want the parallels to real life, so I'll refrain.

[lusty kettle]

It is a hard balance, yes, but for me, it comes down to how expansive the reaction is versus just one person who is in a tizzy.

[glacial moth]

I'll back out of this convo at this point. Thank you for humoring me ❤️

[lusty kettle]

You've made some solid points. I don't disagree.

[glacial moth]

My apologies. I didn't mean that to sound targeted at you. It might have come across that way. I just meant in general I'm backing out to do other things.

[honest meadow]

To throw in even more nuances, everyone has their own RP style.

[lusty kettle]

I was just responding to the humoring you comment. I didn't feel like I was. I think you said some things people are afraid to say.

Right. This has been probably the best RP conversation we've had in my two years. lol.

I think I've heard some valid points from all sides--our conflict lovers, our conflict avoiders, our middle of the line people.

[eager charm]

"Weaponized" is a bad faith way of putting players asking for harassment and the perceived encouragement of it to stop.

[gleaming bison]

I think folks also look at things a bit too much through their characters eyes. Which happens, I do it too, but I make an effort to try not to be too biased. But like different towns and countries all have some pretty shady sides. Being upset at a death laser and not a super powered air warship that was made with a secret deal by mad scientists that make super weapons for funzies is totally fine IC but pretty hypocritical oocly.

[glacial moth]

No, it's not bad faith. I was specifically calling out those who do weaponize it.

[vagrant oar]

Wait, what superpowered air warship?

[lusty kettle]

I think that's still assuming people are weaponizing it, though.

Rather than that they just really are not having fun with whatever is happening.

[inland quest]

I think it’s suggesting that people are weaponizing it, for sure

[gilded shale]

I could say a lot, but I'd like to maintain the civility of this discussion and just say I still believe ending it was a good call.

[lusty kettle]

I personally would never stop something unless there was an expansive response and/or we were hitting a point of no return.

[gleaming bison]

In the winter war icemule built a super powered printer airship with manticore weaponry and everything.

[glacial moth]

I'm not trying to hop back into this, but I am talking from my experie3nce where I know someone is weaponizing it because of my interactions with them. Not some vague "there are some people, out there, maybe, in theory, who do this" thing

[lusty kettle]

Unless someone has told you that they are weaponizing it, it's still assuming their intentions in expressing their displeasure with something.

[nocturne delta]

Ahem... I would like to point to the Free North News issues that have been published. In Issue 8, we have "Sol sips Tea". In Issue 2, we have "The Lies of Athalia Malwind". Issue 4, "Nothing Happens in the realm of Vornavis under the header of News for the North. Issue 6, Read the Northern Wind bit, and so on.

This isn't just magically in people's heads, and these words are supposedly printed in game, and definitely said. Like... just be free, is my character's thought on it. OOCly, this has been asked to stop. So... I dunno.

[gleaming bison]

Why does auto correct hate me aaaaaaaaa, someone teach it fantasy names please haha

[inland quest]

I don't want to go circular about this, and I don't want to get philosophical either haha

[glacial moth]

Yes, this would be one of the reasons I chose to use the word.

[vagrant oar]

Man, I don't know what it says that somehow this is the first I'm hearing of it in an IC or OOC sense, but it must say something.

Edit: Still, that said, I don't see how it necessarily displays hypocrisy to criticize one and not the other. The Hall of Mages has a history of corrupt officials misusing power in ways that cause hundreds of deaths. Does Icemule? (Honest question. I'm open to the idea that the answer is yes--but, again, if it is yes, I'm not actually familiar with that.)

[inland quest]

I can think something is being weaponized without it being an assumption

[lusty kettle]

I like to err on the side of no one really wants to ruin anyone else's fun.

[inland quest]

it could be my analysis haha

[gleaming bison]

Cause we only talk about when the landing or empire do shady things haha (referring to my character and yours generally)

[slim parrot]

Oh rest assured, when IMT does it blood magic nonsense, and they jack up the world, they can get it

[lusty kettle]

Okay I don't know if I'm allowed to laugh at that, but it was funny.

[hollow frigate]

If you type them enough, it learns! Oddly my autocorrect recognizes way too many pokemon now...

[stoic raven]

Are we talking the same airship used to rescue the krolvin from their exploding island?

[void tinsel]

My autocorrect mangles names the absolute worst. Often hilariously so. I'm at the point that I just leave it now most of the time. Y'all know who I mean.

[gilded shale]

I don't know, are we talking about the same death ray that hasn't zapped anybody yet?

[inland quest]

Wait

It zapped a bunch of people!

[stark ginkgo]

The white wyrms super power is being fast and powerful for its size...now that lich school....

[inland quest]

And good riddance!

Those people were BEING REAL JERKS

Except perigourd that was an oopsie doopsie

[lusty kettle]

I need a newspaper or something because I have no idea what is going on on the other side of this map.

[slim parrot]

Keep it away from the Folly. All I'm saying.

We got chicarones now.

[vagrant oar]

Zapped Leafi like 12 times!

[inland quest]

I think “oopsie doopsie” was elidal’s official legal ruling actually

[gilded shale]

Okay, death ray that seemingly has yet to be used for any ill intent. 😂

[lusty kettle]

I'm just over here in my own little universe, shutting down treaties and killing people with pirates by mistake.

[tranquil rune]

Go read the ones Yukito pointed out!

[lusty kettle]

I'm pretty sure those will not be an unbiased tale of what has transpired.

[stoic raven]

The death ray killed a bunch of people who weren't doing anything til they-who-shall-not-be-named showed up outside the landing.

[honest meadow]

THANKS FOR THE REMINDER. It closes for cleaning tonight!

[inland quest]

well let's not rob the reivers of agency

they signed up to become terrifying spider monsters

and they got the fate that comes to terrifying spider monsters

[gilded shale]

And Icemule's airship fired on Ta'Vaalor's airship for questionable reasons. Turns out nobody's morally perfect, to the shock of.. well, some, surely

[inland quest]

and also anybody I don't like

[nocturne delta]

Volume 2 really makes my point. Solhaven has been "silent and distant". Because largely, that's not our playground. And a lot of us really don't want to care about what happens in other towns. So... it's not like it hasn't been made clear, and it is in black and white that is not what has happened.

[vagrant oar]

It unironically seems to have been, yeah. "Well, yeah, I know my father fired it on you guys, but whatever, he's senile. Also he won't admit it and nobody else will admit it was him either, so we have no witnesses, so let's just call it water under the bridge."

[tranquil rune]

And bear in mind that was over the course of a year for the purposes of two much and too loud.

It's kind of funny you say that, because we actually do publish a newspaper.

[void tinsel]

My character remains staunchly pro-death-ray. It belongs in the rightful hands of the Empire.

Which Empire? I think we know. Oh, I think we know.

[gilded shale]

So was it one of the krolvin rescued from the exploding island that was sold into indentured servitude? I want to get my facts straight

[inland quest]

Are we doing a clip show

[lusty kettle]

Ta'Elven Empire.

[inland quest]

Is this what a gemstone clip show looks like

[lusty kettle]

TV is organizing a retrieval party as we speak.

[compact pagoda]

Well, we were morally perfect for standing down and not pancaking Icemule from above 😛

[stark ginkgo]

man if that indentured servent wasn't an example of the discord crowd who doesn't even play starting conflict over something they don't understand I don't know what is

[inland quest]

I mean

[void tinsel]

New New Totally New and Improved Ta'Faendryl.

[lusty kettle]

Where would I get my tarts if we did that, after all?

[inland quest]

let's be clear here that the guy who staged the slavery political stunt was starting the conflict

I don't think sorlu would want you to rob him of the credit for that

[gilded shale]

The solution is to form Ta'Keebler. All Hail Patriarch Ernie, let us embrace the cookie

[lusty kettle]

I feel like that's something we can all band around.

[vagrant oar]

It was a fantastically creative use of mechanics.
Leafi-approved, 10/10.

[stark ginkgo]

Jkarog will get his

[void tinsel]

I read parts of those. Admire the creativity, not so much how it affected other players.

Also, thank you for providing some receipts. ❤️

[compact pagoda]

Like I said, they gave me a glazed donut hamburger. Would have hated to have to kill everyone and lose glazed donut hamburgers. Elves do not make glazed donut hamburgers

[grand compass]

What happened to Ta'Pancake and Ta'Waffle?

she says, throwing it back to an almost 10 year+ April fools joke

[gilded shale]

I ate them. Sorry

[stoic raven]

Funny that firing at an airship and rescuing Krolvin is somehow on par with murdering an entire group of reivers but ok... look at that pot being stirred!

[nocturne delta]

They were well written and structured, yes. The effort to compile those opinions is very nice. I just find it a touch ironic, is all.

[hollow frigate]

Wait until Ta'Keebler meets Owly...

[void tinsel]

I wouldn't know. I hail from the soon-to-be-an-island nation of Ta'Beignet.

[honest meadow]

Before tempers flare, we're making progress here.

[lusty kettle]

Elven Waffle House lore incoming.

[stark ginkgo]

Yukito do you want a response? Because if you keep going someone is going to respond. Maybe not me...but someone and then when that happens you can't blame them for responding.

[honest meadow]

Granted I now want a cookie.

[gleaming bison]

I'm also now hungry...

[grand compass]

wafflehousechairthrow.gif

[nocturne delta]

Please do. In a respectful manner.

[inland quest]

so

[eternal needle]

Rumor has it there's still an elven waffle house open in the ashrim ruins. They close for nothing.

[vagrant oar]

>l in my jar
In the ceramic cookie jar:
Food/Drink [3]: a fluffy leaf-shaped cookie gracefully flourished with chocolate venation (3)```

[inland quest]

I want to go back to the concept of separating OOC conflict from IC conflict again haha

[shy folio]

It was the only structure the Faendryl couldn't sink

[gilded shale]

That was really what the Faendryl-Ashrim War amounted to. A massive, no holds barred, Decatur GA Waffle House brawl

[inland quest]

I think mostly we have been successful at this and we should remain so

that would be best

[keen pelican]

Where'd you get a leaf-shaped cookie..?

[lusty kettle]

There will always be some overlap there if IC conflict is inhibiting OOC enjoyment of playing GS, though. So keep that in mind.

[eager charm]

I was going to say

[vagrant oar]

21m auction win for a custom Confection Creator recipe. 🤣

[honest meadow]

Waffle House and hurricane warnings, the most serious of Florida duos.

[lusty kettle]

We still need to think about the player behind the character, even though we should separate IC and OOC opinions.

[nocturne delta]

I also want to say... again. You are allowed to talk and complain, but your response is basically like a threat. So what if someone responds. I called it and pointed to it. So...? Why do I need to be worried for an answer?

Like as was said before. Dish it, but can't take it. No one is like, threatening you guys or how you want to play. We just don't have to engage.

[slim parrot]

If someone has a beef with someone OOC, anything they do IC is going to be viewed through OOC lenses. I think Raelee touched upon this.

So it's better to be respectful, and just avoid them altogether. But it's creating different pockets of hangouts. If that's what people want, hey, I'll roll with it.

[keen pelican]

Which auction did I miss this at?!

[lusty kettle]

I don't think that's a fair generalization. I have beef with people OOC and I still treat them appropriately IC.

[inland quest]

I thought the newspaper stuff was pretty funny in a lot of ways because I don't remember any real discussion of it ever taking place in game but what did happen was that a GMNPC wrote a counter newspaper and dropped it on us in the middle of roleplay hahaha

[lusty kettle]

You can be respectful of people's experience in the game without liking them.

[nocturne delta]

(shrugs) My answer, then?

[slim parrot]

That's....what I just said. But if I play my character as is, even when not even INTERACTING with them, I've gotten heat stating it was an OOC attack.

Maybe your experiences are better. Mine haven't been. But what I've been doing since the Palestra Trials works, and I'll stick with it.

[vagrant oar]

April 2023, and apparently I actually paid 29.5m. 😮 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18TVfq1aZfnlh_eXz8pfkxF0MMKqcd3E4ZhMowWk5yuo/edit#gid=1874881277

[brave sorrel]

I'm a little scared to even dip my toes into this thread because I don't have a few hours to kill, but I saw this comment and I think this is an important point to make. We should all be mature enough to be able to handle polite or at least neutral interaction with people in game even if we aren't fans of them OOC. That does not seem like too much to ask.

If that is something someone cannot handle, then we have the options to go other places or find our fun in other spaces.

[stark ginkgo]

No I am just making sure if we respond it will not be framed as an attack on you after several statements you have made.

[lusty kettle]

I was responding to the part where you said that if you beef OOC, then you are going to view the IC from an OOC lens. I wholeheartedly disagree that that is true for everyone.

[nocturne delta]

There are very few people I actively dislike playing this game. It's a little like Bilbo said, "I don't know more than half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." Like... this reply above me. All I did was point to written statements. I'm curious why that sparked a negative response, so I would like an answer. Because those were proudly printed.

[slim parrot]

Yeah, I'm going to respectfully disagree on that. This game can be high school in nature, and I know plenty that have experienced it. But if you have had better fortune, I applaud you for it.

[lusty kettle]

Generalizing an entire playbase is not something I'm willing to do on this point.

[brave sorrel]

I think throwing around the idea of "this is OOC motivated" as a way to dismiss RP is not a good way to approach things. Maybe it IS OOC motivated, maybe not, but in general I believe it would benefit most people to approach in game and IC interactions through the lens of it being IC and not speculate or try to push it off as being OOC unless that has been made abundantly clear (as in an actual OOC message or interactoin). Otherwise we run the risk of reading OOC motivation into things that may or may not exist and we remove the ability for our characters to handle conflict IC where it belongs.

[gleaming bison]

Alright I'm going to eat some cookies (thanks a lot to those whom made me hungry for cookies....) and get some rest, I may try to catch up on another 1000 messages here tomorrow haha.

[stark ginkgo]

Its not a negative response I was asking if you wanted a response that was it....everything isn't a word trap to trick you. You responded once to please continue why take it here? I have not even had time to type the response yet!

[eager charm]

WRITE THE RESPONSE DENDUM

(edit: I want to read it)

[gilded shale]

How about let's not play the baiting game? That's embarrassing.

[inland quest]

Tev do you want me to play the baiting game or not

[lusty kettle]

Please no baiting games.

[gilded shale]

Well. Only with you, Tikboo ❤️ OR NOT, CASIL NEVER LETS ME DO ANYTHING

[void tinsel]

I absolutely agree with that option of finding other places to be and have done so on many occasions. I think the reverse is also true, however, and that if someone or a group of someones comes to a place expressly to disrupt it, e.g., showing up at a tea party and lighting all the tablecloths on fire, kicking over the samovar, and shouting "DEATH TO THE MIRROR!" or something, it's not stifling RP to turn to a GM and say "are you seeing this? Can we not?"

A lot of it comes down to courtesy and whether we change our ways of doing stuff or hold our peace or just not show up for the sake of other people. Black Thorn events are open to all, and Lylia will never ever attend one because I as a player know there are people at them who will be made unhappy if she's there. Most people extend the same courtesy, but there have been times in the past that it wasn't the case.

[lusty kettle]

I never, ever let you do anything fun, that is true.

[inland quest]

Oh no tikboo

[nocturne delta]

And I answered. I dislike being painted with a brush of offense when I haven't done anything but make a point. If you want to answer, do so. I will respond as I see fit. As I have been doing. If that causes me to get angry with you, then that is what happens. You have the right to not respond or care.

[inland quest]

Actually lylia is bringing up something I have thought about a few times

[honest meadow]

TI catching strays here.

[inland quest]

unironically I think that the GMs are sometimes too CAUTIOUS when it comes to hucking people out of things

I understand why!

[stark ginkgo]

@nocturne delta The writings about Solhaven started because of its unique position in the empire and its interesting and STRONG response to NxNW the current Solhaven guru brought sol into this story well before we did...the Free North News reprents a year of writing at this point so obviously it is different at different times. When Malwind was denouncing the Thorns...we responded in writing...we didn't go into Sol haven and mess with any event...we didn't bother anyone during GM RP we didn't do anything that could even be considered mildly disruptive at an event we wrote about it in the free north news.

[lusty kettle]

Yeah, Elysani and I believe in RP actions have RP consequences so

[eager charm]

aaayy look at that, Lydia ahem Lylia and I think the same thing again

[inland quest]

you don't want to cut people off or end conversations if people are trying to do things

[lusty kettle]

Do not expect caution to continue in the EN.

[honest meadow]

^^

[inland quest]

but I personally think sometimes "okay bye" is the outcome people are looking for

and it is okay to deliver it

that's my view!

[void tinsel]

Okay bye!

(No, not really, but it was the right time to say it!)

[honest meadow]

Ta'Consequences.

[honest meadow]

I was honestly waiting for the slide gif.

[lusty kettle]

So, while I am team consequences, there's also of course a little room to be contentious.

I always make it really clear before I'm about to evict someone from the situation, and thus far I've not had to do it.

[nocturne delta]

That is not the topic in this particular discourse, between you and I. I pointed out where it has been printed, falsehoods and baiting. That is it. You were also all instructed to stop what you were doing, not only by us, but the GMs. And yet... there is volume 8. While this is a progression, sure, I pointed out the pattern. nothing more on this point, and nothing less.

It can prompt a defensive response, but it is PRINTED and in your own words.

[stark ginkgo]

What?! That is a lie.

[nocturne delta]

What is a lie? I'm confused. I also cannot rapidly respond to you. You asked me if I wanted a response to what I posted. You gave me one. I was addressing nothing more than what we were both addressing. Athalia said none of those things. Kenstrom specifi... THAT is what you are focused on? And how many ways do you need to be told BY GMs to cool it?

[stark ginkgo]

No GM has asked us to stop writing the Free North News...I don't know where you got that idea.

[nocturne delta]

Also... no one mentioned not writing. It was mentioned to knock off your behavior. Heck, we can even look at the starboard to see that.

[glacial moth]

The crazy part about that whole thing is that I did set up a RP scenario where the NPC may, or may not, have been a slave/indentured servant. It was left open to interpretation, but surely seemed suspect (intentionally designed that way) I pushed this storyline of mine towards that confusion so that a resolution (Is this okay? Are we going to do something to stop this? We have to make sure this person isn't a slave and made free if they are!") could be played out. And that no matter what, at the end of the day, if anyone would catch blowback, it'd be my character Sorlu...and I'm fine with that, because I RP, and I'm not actually Sorlu, so my feelings never get hurt by RP stuff. Ever.

Most of that happened within the core group of Icemule players...in fact, I'd say it went off perfectly there.

Falvicar actually came out as the hero. I had a backup plan in case it was someone I worried about OOCly taking it in a bad angle. But Falvicar plays a goodly character, and as the one who made the purchase to ultimately make sure this NPC, no matter what their previous status was, freed the NPC in a really cool way.....then began to receive DMs from weirdo players who accused him of supporting RL slavery. LOL. It seems like upside down world here sometimes.

[tranquil rune]

https://gswiki.play.net/Black_Thorn_Resistance/Free_North_News_Issue_2

This one? And the Lies of Athalia Malwind is the section that was over the line?

[stark ginkgo]

And yet... there is volume 8 As someone who has written less than clearly in this conversation I understand how communication can not work but this seems to clearly indicate volume 8 is somehow "wrong"

[stoic raven]

Dude...you do this alot. It's really not cool. I'm also giving it zero more of my attention and going to bed.

[gilded shale]

Night.

[void tinsel]

I was under the distinct impression myself that GMs had asked there to be a cooling off of attacks on Imperial characters. There's also a definite ganging-up going on here.

[inland quest]

mmm

[honest meadow]

Stay constructive and respectful peoples.

[inland quest]

I think the temperature, in general, could be lowered

[nocturne delta]

(steeple nose) I pointed to the specific parts in my initial response. I'm done. I'm the bad guy, you guys are right. Carry on. I didn't raise the temp. 3 people just responded to me. It's because I am making strong points. They may be disagreed with, but dang. Don't act like it's me.

[void tinsel]

Someone asked for receipts. You provided receipts. This is how it is supposed to go, yes?

[inland quest]

probably some of the messages currently being typed could just be, like, deleted

and the world would not suffer

lol

[stark ginkgo]

probably so

[nocturne delta]

It's how it goes a lot, Lylia. I keep trying to point where the issue is, and get a lot of "Nuh uh!" Like... ugh.

[vagrant oar]

Can it be pointed out when and where the "told by GMs to cool it" occurred?

[inland quest]

Okay but don’t then immediately say more lol

[tranquil rune]

I asked for reciepts, and let's go through them then. I wanna see where we went wrong. I will obviously own everything we published. Saying Solhaven is "Silent and Distant" is an attack on imperial characters?

[inland quest]

maybe people aren't getting this clearly but yes, I think a lot of people in this conversation could consider their behavior

[nocturne delta]

The starboard. Look for Kenstrom and many other GMs speaking on the topic of cooling it between each other. Again, in black and white.

[inland quest]

if you think I don't mean you then that is also worth considering

[flat hornet]

Part of me wants to change the topic to "Is 'Murder on the Dance Floor' a Good Song?" I contend yes.

Jokes aside, I do want you guys to be able to debate this stuff, but please don't try to antagonize each other while doing so.

[lusty kettle]

So, we definitely need some cooldown time but I'd like to offer a perspective from an uninformed person, as I must reiterate.

[nocturne delta]

I get annoyed, because some people act as if I am the aggressor. When like... no?

[gilded shale]

For even more fireworks, change it to "was Panic! at the Disco a good band"

[void tinsel]

"Several people are typing..." 😄

On a more serious note, I can try to go back into the mists of time and see where GMs have asked that, but is this really a Berenstein/Berenstain Bears universe issue? I'm not crazy, and GMs have intervened to ask people to be more respectful and not fling poo at Imperials all the time, right? I am not imagining that people have been asked not to target other players, and I thought that's why the targeting had moved on to NPCs or "the Empire" in general.

[inland quest]

I'm talking to you here as well.

[eager charm]

It was and only ever Urie.

[compact pagoda]

I thought the starboard died because I starred all RP stuff religiously and it pissed off the non-RP people that wanted just the mechanics facts? I'd really be sad to learn it wasn't my fault. 😛

[inland quest]

it wasn't your fault!

[stark ginkgo]

We made a conscious effort.

[inland quest]

it was a systemic issue!

[vagrant oar]

The starboard posts I recall were referring to OOC interactions, not IC interactions. Now, maybe it's debatable whether wiki posts could be interpreted as IC, but by and large the community has generally opted to take things posted on the wiki as IC if the authors intend them to be. (This was significantly more true before Papermakers and mailing paper (much less character-constrained than previous iterations of writeable paper) existed.)

[gilded shale]

This man gets it

[flat hornet]

Sipping between dignified sips of his dignified...

[nocturne delta]

All I did was point to an article, and defend myself and my position. I DID ask for clarification when asked if I wanted an opinion, so maybe that's my bad.

[flat hornet]

🍑 and lime--

Daiquiriiii.

[honest meadow]

As a GM who isn't involved in this from the RP side, I think this is progress, but I get that it's getting heated. The discussion is there somewhere, but if we need to take a break and formulate thoughts... I can randomly start spouting nonsense.

[flat hornet]

Sorry, back to conflict.

[honest meadow]

Because that's what I do best.

[flat hornet]

I would never do that.

[tranquil rune]

https://gswiki.play.net/Black_Thorn_Resistance/Free_North_News_Issue_8

Issue 8 has one line:

SOL SIPS TEA: Despite the turmoil caused by the empire in the Free North, Solhaven appears to be untroubled and is expanding its infrastructure, new schools and town improvements abound! How long can the death to the north of them go unnoticed?

[flat hornet]

Nonsense is for low minds!

[gilded shale]

This is now a nonsense thread. posts Coheed and Cambria lyrics with no context whatsoever

[slim parrot]

I took it as GMs telling everyone to chill.

It seems like people took what they wanted as talks about the opposing viewpoints. There's one post in particular that was starred by several people. And I laughed because one group saw the first part of it, which pertained to their point of view, and agreed and that it was meant for them. And then the other saw the last part, which was meant for the other viewpoint, and thought it was meant for them.

This is why I'm kinda over it, and this is why events like the Communal mean so much.

[lusty kettle]

One thing a lot of us do behind the scenes when doing storylines is to adjust. Sometimes what we are doing is not working, particularly when it involves conflicts. At that point, we discuss, reassess, and change our methods to see if we can find a better way to handle it. This doesn't mean we can an entire idea, but we do need to consider if the people that are being pulled into whatever storyline we are doing are being pulled in in a way that makes them want to engage with the storyline.

If it doesn't want to make them engage, then we have work to do.

[tranquil rune]

This is criticism of the empire. This is deeply upsetting to players?

[nocturne delta]

#1196189488808992829 message

[lusty kettle]

So, if you are, for instance, publishing things that are aimed toward an area of the game that people are invested in, play in, etc, and the response to that is NOT IC engagement, it's probably a great time to assess if it's a worthwhile investment to engage the community as a whole in your roleplay. If it's not your goal to engage that community in your roleplay, then it's probably best to redirect your investment to communities you do want to engage with.

[honest meadow]

I think we as players end up with a lot of pride when it comes to where our players call "home".

[lusty kettle]

And that can, at times, be as simple as just changing wording or making it clear opinions, or taking out language that may seem incendiary when you're not trying to be incendiary.

[tranquil rune]

I mean, click the link, you don't need to read, that one line in a whole bunch of articles that I am plenty proud of.

[gilded shale]

Pride, nostalgia. Yeah, I'd say that's fair.

I even have some nostalgia for the Landing and especially Icemule, as the latter is where Tev generally stayed before the EN released.

[lusty kettle]

If your attempts to engage with a community are met with copious resistance, we're back to that introspection bit.

[weak tulip]

i will say, statements like these frustrate me some as a player because there is a not minor contingent of Solhaven PCs that try to be positive agents in world events, and when it's suggested that we are all just sipping tea like that's a bad thing, it makes me feel a bit unseen for all the work i put into to get my butt around the continent as much as possible because i'm "only" a PC and not like...Lady Athalia Malwind

that said, i and my character recognize the FNN as IC propaganda, so we both kinda shrug it off. and i also recognize and appreciate the amount of work that goes into writing/coordinating something like that.

[nocturne delta]

It's that, but it's also being called out for not participating or caring, then having it shoved in your face. As the Empire as a player gathering area consists of Solhaven and River's Rest, that is a lot of the focus. What baronies SPECIFICALLY are people angry at? The Empire isn't a monolith. Pointing out an area that has nothing to do with it, and the people and orgs there is: (John Travolta gif)

[void tinsel]

We very much do, even those of us who call "home" somewhere that hasn't been built for PC access. We're prickly about it sometimes, and it can lead to good, creative outcomes -- or clannishness and spite and baiting and OOC ill will.

[eternal needle]

So in this instance where it says "Solhaven sits idol" - would it be fair to assume if they had "Malwind Family Sits Idle" that it would feel less like an unnecessary dig at the PCs?

[lusty kettle]

And I'd like to point out what Missoni just said about the amount of work to write and coordinate these things. And the pride Queatus has expressed in the work he's done. And I don't bring this up as a bad thing. What happens, however, and plenty of us GMs are guilty of it, is it's MUCH harder to separate and redirect when you have invested your time and energy and creativity into something. But that doesn't always mean it doesn't have to be done anyway.

[eager charm]

I mean, I stopped going to Landing stuff years ago because I spent the better part of the 2010s hearing about how much the empire sucked and how much my charactrt sucked, even if it was vaguely ICly. It veered well beyond a saturation point and, to be fair, there are many bad actors in that sandbox who I will not engage with under any circumstances.

It's not about the "bad blood for my home town" or any such thing as that. It boils down to what Raelee said earlier, and I will add in the caveat that I don't pay to have my good time dunked on because someone is still mad about Jantalar twenty years later OOCly.

[void tinsel]

I have read or at least glanced at all the FNN editions. I don't comment because I'm following the "if you can't say something nice..." philosophy OOC. IC, Lylia has never read them but has used them to stuff inside her boots when they get wet in all that blood rain.

I tend to keep these opinions to myself usually as they are not constructive, but I am tired of hearing about how mean I am, how gatekeepy and terrible and dictatorial, when y'all have no idea how much I bite back.

[lusty kettle]

We're all proud of the work we put into our characters, into storylines, into our backgrounds, into our community. And when the work you have put in does not reflect maybe the response you get, it's really hard to sit back and assess that with a clear mind.

[inland quest]

I think some of this Solhaven conversation gets confusing to me. There are characters who are citizens of Solhaven who are deeply engaged and come to every KST. They are obviously part of the storyline. There are others who don’t come to any KST. That is true for Icemule, and for the Landing, too.

[weak tulip]

yes. that would very much change how i read it. because on the flip side i have been called out for being at events that are not in my perceived sandbox. there's a lot of cognitive dissonance there for me.

[tranquil rune]

Ok, well, I apologize, I don't think it was intended to say that citizens of Solhaven are sipping and tea and uncaring, it was intended to be a new item saying Solhaven got new stuff while yes, being intended as IC propaganda also. I very much respect Missoni the character and the player.

[nocturne delta]

Honestly? Yeah. That is directing ire at an NPC. And even as I point out that the volume that mentioned Athalia's lies was printed, that was taken ICly, even if it makes the character gasp. BUT. The logs for what Athalia DID say are widely available.

[compact pagoda]

Isn't the FNN an in-character tabloid rag? If it's all real, does that mean Manrolt's going official canon now?

[inland quest]

Please no.

[stark ginkgo]

It was not taken IC it greated a gigantic mega thread of arguments that led to comparisons of Fox News....its a rather famous thread!

[slim parrot]

Y'all already got moulis and vampires. Manrolt don't seem that far-fetched.

[keen pelican]

Someone's next child?

[slim parrot]

Not mine!

[vagrant oar]

If the resolution to this is really just as simple as switching "Solhaven sits idle" to "Vornavis nobility sits idle" or the like, that seems easy and simple enough. I might be too detached to truly understand what people (players) take issue with, but then again, I likewise see people (players) taking offense when Yardie (the character) blames "the Landing" (characters) for poking around in Darkstone and I (a player) don't have any issue with that generalization either. Makes sense to me (a player) from a character perspective.

[nocturne delta]

I did take that ICly. And my character was horrified and confused as to why lies were openly being printed. As for OOCly, I was very bemused, because it was obvious falsehood and I was confused, and a bit angry because of the perceived vitriol. Also.. that was the same thread where the calls to chill originated.

[inland quest]

I mean I take IC offense to that

[tranquil rune]

In this case the intention was to say something bad about the empire, so yes, it was intended to incendiary in that way, but it is supposed to be ok I think.

[inland quest]

I don’t OOC care what people say

[honest meadow]

I'm offended that this thread isn't titled FESTIVUS.

[weak tulip]

so do i, cause i poke around in darkstone too. 😄

[eternal needle]

pin this

[vagrant oar]

Yeaaaah, I edited like four times since people (players) seem to want very, very precise wording tonight. Heh.

[slim parrot]

They can get at him for saying it. That's how he feels. Let them be IC offended. Don't make him no nevermind.

Minding his own business and all the sudden gets clapped? Nah, no time for itemization. All y'all. That's an all y'all moment.

[inland quest]

Done

[lusty kettle]

And I have NO DOUBT in my mind that none of this is meant to incite players or make people feel bad about their characters. It's OKAY to be incendiary and I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I think this conversation illustrated that it was that it was about "Solhaven" instead of about the leaders of Solhaven.

[nocturne delta]

Because plenty of us were standing in the room right next to you guys when your characters call us out for not being there or engaged, or otherwise being useless.

And it sorta sucks to be playing a knight, doing the right thing and helping people and have it directed square at you.

[lusty kettle]

Which is my point about how sometimes we do things, it comes out wrong, and we have to reassess how we move forward with it in the future. And that's hard to do when we're SO invested in our creative efforts. I still feel like throwing up every time I run a storyline or lore gets posted that I worked on or whatever, because you want people to like it and be engaged and you never know what the response will be.

[vagrant oar]

I don't think anyone was ever trying to criticize Solhaven PCs. They don't have the power to allocate Vornavis resources.

[lusty kettle]

Right, which goes back to my point of sometimes it's just about adjusting wording.

[tranquil rune]

https://gswiki.play.net/Black_Thorn_Resistance/Free_North_News_Issue_4

Nothing happens in the realm of Vornavis, rumors of any conflict between the elven nations and the merciless human empire appear to be greatly exaggerated...the recent trend in the launching point for nothern invasions appears to be talking about Aldoran Rocktending.

[void tinsel]

That actually brings up a HUGE issue I have and probably the single biggest point of frustration with any IC conflict and makes it spill out into OOC irritation: When people put forth manifestly false stuff in the game, you start manufacturing a reality that is not supported by the rest of the game. The "fake news" comparisons from epic threads past are kind of where I'm going with that. I don't want to trample anyone's politics here because we sure don't need this thread to become more heated, but when someone starts off asserting something absurd and manifestly false like "Athalia said XYZ" when she did not, it's a lot like saying "Biden didn't win" to me. It's literally just...made up.

I would like less made up stuff in our made up world, please. 😄

[tranquil rune]

So this one, what do we need to do differently there?

[lusty kettle]

I find it hard to imagine the free north news would include areas that y'all didn't want to get engaged with roleplay wise, and I think its possible to have both your hot takes (or bluntly honest ones) and make people want to get engaged with your hot takes (or bluntly honest ones).

[stark ginkgo]

The lies of Athalia...ect ect...Malwind doesn't actually contain things she said...thats...not what the article is about. It was highlighting the vast open land available in Vornavoris at a time that the major argument from the empire was that they needed land to put the displaced and seeking on.

[inland quest]

Actually it inspired a whole plan for Solhaven expansion!

[stark ginkgo]

yea it wasn't even factually as far off as some stuff...

[lusty kettle]

Well, Solhaven expansions have been being pushed by people in Solhaven for a long time.

[compact pagoda]

is Monty Selehdona not really a fashion critic?

[stark ginkgo]

It was also printed at the time when settlers were being put into human living screaming projectiles and launched into the walls of the landing.

[void tinsel]

Tsk, I just wish we'd hurry up and get to the place where New Ta'Faendryl sweeps up from the south and gobbles up the world. Been waiting on this, Korvath.

[nocturne delta]

Well, for one, calling out the orders specifically by name when we haven't done anything should stop. Calling us names, or otherwise dragging us because we won't engage, gosh that would be nice if it stopped. And it has been mentioned that while one person may do this small thing, there are likely others you don't know are doing it, and you become the reason someone snaps. One on one, I like interacting with most people. I dislike being called out for things I didn't do.

I mean, I was accepted for Enisius' research team and have not gone to Landing ONCE to be part of it because of this mess. I wrote 8 pages ICly and mailed them in, and I feel unwelcome. That sucks.

[lusty kettle]

Since Elysani won't let me annex Ta'Illistim, Ta'Vaalor may be interested in this plan. 😆

[void tinsel]

Psst -- please come back if you like. The Landing has become a more congenial place.

[honest meadow]

https://tenor.com/view/modern-family-spray-squirt-annoyed-irritated-gif-4445288

[lunar wigeon]

That's just it, it's very obvious made up propaganda, so if a char who is naive or not so invested reads it and goes <gasp> is that true?!?!!? is this not a prime opportunty for IC RP engagement. Otherwise, if people don't like it, they dont need to read it.

[lusty kettle]

Honestly I wanted to annex Ta'Nalfein and become Ta'Vaalfein but that got a no, too.

[honest meadow]

Y u do this to me?

[lusty kettle]

We need a naval force to deal with all these pirates.

[slim parrot]

I don't know anymore. I remember the term "yes, and" and...I'll say none of it feels that way to me. So I'm gonna do me and have fun my own way, and do my best to not harm people.

[void tinsel]

You know, I've always liked Ta'Vaalor... 😄

[honest meadow]

But from an IC perspective, I can see characters being very protective of Athalia.

[lusty kettle]

But there's a difference between made up propaganda that targets institutions/NPCs, and propaganda that unintentionally targets player groups.

[stark ginkgo]

It was also printed when characters from the empire were trying to say that the people in the landing that were against the empire were morally flawed in doing so because they were turning away these people who had nowhere else to go....it was a direct response to an argument put forward by players of the empire....

[eternal needle]

The conversation is about why some people don't want conflict and why it's not done well. Not engaging with things you/your character might not like is one approach but it's worth also considering why people are asking for less conflict and shying away from engaging with a groups conflict-driven rhetoric.

[lusty kettle]

This. ^

I mentioned this hours ago (have we really been doing this for hours?). It's super important to reflect on WHY so many OOC meetings included requests for less conflict.

[slim parrot]

So play it out IC. That was the hope. Instead it...blew up. It's been over a year with this story.

[lusty kettle]

And for community-building stories instead.

[nocturne delta]

I, personally, tried "Yes and" in the beginning. I was talking to people, engaging asking questions, etc. Then I stood listening, and Yukito can't really tell how he feels in a room with people yelling down with the empire (because of course), and literally, we were telling each other as Order characters AND as players to let you guys have your fun because it's not our turf. It became "No, but" when I was asked to join in with the rebellion. I explained why, and offered to do other things or just be an ear. It really was an unwelcoming vibe.

[lusty kettle]

PLaying it out IC requires a certain comfort level with what is happening, though. Trust with engaging in conflict. If people aren't playing it out IC, it's a good idea to assess why that might be, and not immediatel jump to that "people don't like conflict"

[void tinsel]

Right, totally agreed -- but the problem is when people take this obviously over the top IC propaganda and use it to prop up OOC arguments, such as referring to the Imperial settlement as "colonization" or "occupation," which it isn't in OOC terms. There are plenty of entirely reasonable IC objections to it. There are even a lot of reasonable OOC objections to it! I think it all feels a little closed-in and have wrung my hands a little at all the apple carts it's upset.

I hope I'm coming across clearly here as not upset or telling people what they can or can't do but just expressing how some people have, at times, used stuff that is clearly meant to be over the top ICly to support OOC rhetoric that just...isn't borne out by the game's consensus reality.

[inland quest]

Hmm

The settlement is definitely a colony though!

This is where we run into trouble

[lunar wigeon]

don't many players RP parts of an institution? I mean if we talked about the wizards guild we'd be insulting all wizards? If groups or chars aren't names specifically, I'm not sure I see the issue, labeling a whole town is imo easier blow off or RP. The problem is it just all comes here... where it shouldn't

[inland quest]

We need to work around each other’s vernacular I think

[nocturne delta]

Honestly, I'll give that point. It was coming from the perspective of, "We are all Empire". When it was made clear that Landing does NOT consider themselves Empire, it became, "Send them here".

[inland quest]

The landing is ALSO a colony which was my objection to that framing

[slim parrot]

That was the attempt by many folks. I'm telling you, the effort people put to try to help and facilitate and hear out people, and there are still complaints about stuff that was supposedly squashed a year ago. So I'm just like, blah out of it all.

[eternal needle]

Even in this thread we've seen people drop in with their IC/OOC opinions and then abruptly remove themselves when they are being challenged. That doesn't give me a lot of faith in conflict being fun/staying IC.

[lusty kettle]

People don't live in the wizard's guild. Unless you're doing alchemy. Their city is their HOME. It is a huge part of their identity. It is where they take pride. So when blanket statements are made about a specific city, yes, it's going to ruffle feathers.

[tranquil rune]

It's 100% colonialism. Like, the empire isn't just inherently evil, but neither was the British empire inherently evil during the American revolution. People want self government, this is a normal thing, and it's why we aren't all sitting around speaking English right now!

[void tinsel]

I'm going to tackle this even though I have been kind of avoiding it, fleeing because I found it uncomfortable: WHY play it out IC? Why lend credence to behaviors you personally believe are detrimental to the game and are certainly diminishing your own enjoyment of it?

[vagrant oar]

I've been in here on and off for nine hours and feel that only just in the past hour did I finally make the slightest bit of progress toward understanding the current problems players have OOC with the current Landing story, so I can't fault anybody for bowing out. I'm stupidly persistent, or maybe just persistently stupid.

[nocturne delta]

I suppose I just have expansionist thinking, even IRL. My character is like, "Why NOT want to be a part of this?" and "We sorta thought you were because we are sending all this aid". But when it became clear that wasn't the case, it was looking to our leadership for orders. I would have participated because my character would have thought it was what he should do. That wasn't a choice. not having the choice, and faced with opposition, it's like... meh. I'll do something else because there is nothing I feel I can do.

[lusty kettle]

And whether or not you would react the same way as other people is something that isn't part of the equation here. People ARE reacting this way, and it's valid for them to feel this way. As such, the solution is to decide whether or not you want to continue trying to engage that community. IF you want to continue engaging that community, then the only way to do that is to find a way that actually engages them instead of pushes them away. If you aren't interested in engaging int he community, why bother including things about them at all?

[inland quest]

Yeah, I think we’ve said before in one of our infinite discussions of this that there are perfectly reasonable IC reasons for “good” imperial PCs to support darkstone barony, such as that the landing sucks

[void tinsel]

We all know that "colonizers" has a more pejorative than neutral connotation. It is strictly dictionary-correct to say something is awful in that it inspires awe, but you are not going to be pleased if I say "wow, you look awful."

(By the way, I'm sure you don't -- you look fabulous!)

[inland quest]

(Tikba does look awful!)

[nocturne delta]

It's frustrating because my character doesn't support the Barony, and I've stated it ICly and OOCly. He just literally feels that he cannot do anything. I was having a blast at first, but it got to be a lot.

[eternal needle]

No, that wasn't my point, sorry I was rambly -- but I'm happy that as a group (and I agree) there is some progress being made! I meant moreso people are coming here to be specifically contentious or contrarian and then when a voice or voices rise up in disagreement, they leave. I don't think that's helping progress.

[tranquil rune]

Like, we publish these things because we DON'T want to force conflict on people. We DON'T go around yelling in people's faces. We DON'T go around taking over events and making them all about us. Instead, we write things people can choose to read, or not, choose to ignore, or not. I am hard to pressed to think of how one can resist the empire if printing things that are anti-imperial is over the line.

[void tinsel]

OH MY STARS, saaaame.

[vagrant oar]

Characters feeling that they can't do anything is definitely a commonality within this story on many sides, heh.

[lusty kettle]

Again, it's HOW it is presented, not what is beign presented, I believe.

I mean, consider if you were a TV player (or maybe you are). Let's say I ran a storyline Ta'Vaalor that I wanted to do because it's fun for me, and my town was telling me that they don't like what is happening... If they're not engaging IC, if they're expressing their distaste OOC... What would happen if I KEPT doing those things? Would I be an effective guru?

The same thing can be applied to player groups. If you are including other groups/communities/towns/cities/races/cultures/whatever in your storyline and events and rhetoric, is it effective in engaging people in a meaningful way if those groups do not like what is happening?

[slim parrot]

Because when it's in reverse, I've played through it. When it's been some of the most detrimental things to my character, to the point where it questioned the player, I still played through it and did my best to play the game. Ultimately, I roll it as IC, because I hope people aren't coming at me. They can get at Yardie all they want.

I understand the consequences of the character I play, the roles I picked, and some of the reactions that he's garnered, and I try to roll with it as best as I can. So a situation like that seems prime real estate for a propaganda piece to be squashed because I'm not what the puff piece says. I'm more, with my own thoughts, feelings, and beliefs.

You know this. My character talks about his opposition to certain sorcery things TO those characters. That's...just me I guess.

[lusty kettle]

Would it be disappointing if I put a bunch of time and effort into something that did not get a positive reaction? Absolutely. But I'd still just have to adjust or what's the point of doing it?

[eager charm]

I have no dearth of anecdotes in regards to "just play it out ICly," many of which end very poorly. This was during the 2010s when I thought sportsmanship and good playing meant I had to withstand massive OOC harassment in third party spaces but be the 'bigger man' and just stay IC.

[nocturne delta]

Yukito has said, on repeat, that he thinks the new Baron is a fallow sop that needs way more seasoning and time in the old oven before he can think to do what he is doing. He has stated that the little noble girl (forget her name right now) is better at the job, and she is a tween. I support the Dark Elves in wanting sovereignty, and so much more. I have NOT been approached in game but twice about all this ICly, and have instead been staring and wondering what was going on when it was asked what we are doing when we were actively enjoying the story with everyone. And pardon me, I'm just wordy and fighting a 30 second cooldown.

[slim parrot]

Been saying they can talk IC. Just keep missing each other, I guess?

[flat hornet]

Okay, okay. I get it, Athamael sucked!

[nocturne delta]

I've been playing a lot less, unfortunately. IE, really have almost cashed out and left the game. I leave for long periods of time so that I don't get too heated or upset.

[inland quest]

I am excited that Kenstrom teased recently that he has an answer for “why elidal, here” because I think 110% of the characters in the storyline want an answer to that question lol

[eager charm]

I liked Athamael. This was post Athamael.

[flat hornet]

I was joking.

[slim parrot]

People ain't gonna crack me. They can try. They've gotten close. But nah man. There's so much to this game that my character will continue to nomad it create and share new experiences.

[glossy tangle]

Hopefully this comment isn't skipped over by those that were saying there were no examples earlier.

[flat hornet]

I don't want any of you to quit.

[nocturne delta]

... you should not have a cute poop emoji. That is... uncalled for, Sir.

[flat hornet]

...I do what I want, Yukito. I do what I want.

But you're all too important to me and to this game to feel uncomfortable in it.

Even some of you that drive me nuts.

We have to get better about thinking about the human on the other side of the screen.

[lusty kettle]

So, while that's your take, I would think about the fact that more than one person has now mentioned withdrawing from stuff because of it, and reflect on that and why this conversation isn't as simple as just "gotta play it out IC."

[tranquil rune]

I would absolutely approach Yukito about it, but we are accused of getting into all the imperial player's face about this too much and ruining their fun. Which isn't true, but defintely makes us feel like we should wait to be spoken to before we speak.

[eager charm]

Ideally not. However while my examples are dated, they're a cautionary tale I share on request, because I had to take certain steps to ensure my leisure time fun is protected at all costs. Even if it means big time FOMO.

[void tinsel]

Okay, I'll break it down really simply. Let's say I'm anti-...uhh. Hm. I am anti-Casil. It's a core part of my character makeup, a vital element of how I plan to build my whole persona. Now, how do I express this?

Do I engage Casil in heated conversations IC yet check in occasionally with an OOC whisper to see if he's still cool with it? Do I occasionally step back and engage with him in more neutral or even pleasant moments like at festivals or backyard barbecues? Do I refrain from going to Casil's parties because I would be unwelcome there among all the Casil-friends?

Or do I pick at him with every word I say, never let him get a word in edgewise, show up at all his events just to shout him down, blanket the town in leaflets about him, and step on his hamster for good measure?

Like, obviously I'm exaggerating wildly, but the ways we behave affect so much of how we're perceived and treated in-game. It's actually a very good takeaway for me from this whole conversation to pay more attention to reading the room and seeing if my current angle of conversation IC is welcome -- and if it's clearly unwelcome, and people run away from me, what I can do to change that.

[lusty kettle]

TARGETED.

[nocturne delta]

I'm honestly just a bit tired of it. Some people are better equipped to deal with it, but I don't have the bandwidth to deal with conflict I don't prepare for. I am literally on two types of antidepressants, and the game isn't more important than my health. I can only ask that people leave me out of it, and not make it difficult. Just listen when I say, for me, enough is enough.

I've said it before. I am held down enough by meds that I am at Mr. Rogers levels most of the time, talking about, "Won't you be my neighbor?" If I am asking for someone to back off, that says a lot.

[keen pelican]

You accuse him of being a spy and keep his artwork hostage in your gallery.

[lusty kettle]

Bristenn brings up the point I was about to make. This is leisure time for people. It's a hobby for a lot of us. People PAY to be here. So while yes, you are entitled to also the things you want to do, it's important to be mindful of how those things are affecting the experience of other people who are also here to have fun, and are spending their money to do so.

So no matter how much, again, you want IC and OOC to be separate, the person behind the character needs to be considered.

[weak tulip]

whoa whoa can i get a spray bottle here

[flat hornet]

🍼

Wrong type.

[slim parrot]

Right, and we've stepped back as a whole. It's still the same. I'm just going to defend the folks who have made a conscious effort to come to some sort of understanding. And it's beyond that now. So most just keep their distance. There's nothing else I can say about the matter because it would be too long to really dive into it. I just know the group is beyond the levels of exhaustion, and it gives me a bad vibe.

[nocturne delta]

I should be singing, "Good morning Starshiiiiine, the Earth says Helloooooo." I mean, really.

[vagrant oar]

Honestly, as I look back (because I was thinking on how pervasive the feeling of not being able to do anything is in the current Landing story), the problem probably got exacerbated by there being no story-approved route. Countless possible paths that some percentage of players would have gotten in on were cut off at every turn as non-starters (e.g. NPCs would ignore them or cut them off at the pass):

• Work with Gnul to get rid of the barony
• Work with the reivers to get rid of the barony
• Work with the Rooks to get rid of the barony
• Diplomatically convince Elidal to go away
• Call for a vote to reject protectorate status
• Stand aside and allow Gnul to kill the barony
• Stand aside and allow the reivers to kill the barony
• Stand aside and allow the Remnants to kill the barony
• Work with Tyrrax to get rid of the barony
• Stand aside and allow Octaven to kill the barony

So players invented their own things to fill a vacuum.

[void tinsel]

That's great for you, but it is not wrong for other people to feel otherwise and to seek to avoid conflict over stuff that isn't really all that meaningful -- which surely applies to this, a game -- and spend their time doing stuff they like with people they enjoy. You are not wrong for playing the game your way, but I am not wrong for doing it my way and avoiding people with whom I have nothing but antipathy. I despise the feeling of being where I am not wanted.

And that's also okay. Neither one of us gets a medal for doing it "right" because there is no "right" here.

[inland quest]

Yeah we talked about this in our storyline feedback a little

[lusty kettle]

It's not just one group that is beyond the levels of exhaustion, though.

[inland quest]

In the absence of an officially supported way to oppose the events happening, there’s an excess of energy

[lusty kettle]

That's why we've been talking about this for hours.

[flat hornet]

I'm just sad that I started today out with projects and have gotten nothing done because of Conflict.

[tranquil rune]

No, you are not exaggerating wildly, you are just making things up. We never went and shouted anyone down.

[lusty kettle]

Today was the last day of my vacation. LOL.

I'm spending it with my favorite people.

[glossy tangle]

I am equally saddened by this fwiw

[inland quest]

Yeah I didn’t get anything done either 😭

[flat hornet]

You have a low bar!

[nocturne delta]

I know it keeps getting said but... GSS. We went MONTHS without storyline prompts, to much the same result. That's why it's rose colored glasses. The level of passion here makes me think this is the new guard's GSS era.

[keen pelican]

I defintely agree that we all have differing levels of our ability to handle confrontation within the game, whether done right or not. This is why to me it's important to understand more about who you're dealing with before engaging them with potential conflict and knowing what their limits, and sensitivities may be.

I definitely do not have Peri speak to or joke the same way with everyone until I know what they can tolerate and what they can't. Maybe it helps that I use humor to deflect a lot, but I'd rather be self-deprecating than to cause someone else to have a negative experience.

[lusty kettle]

Wow. Okay, new conflict. Auchand. Discuss.

[flat hornet]

flees, pursued by a bear

[inland quest]

Doesn’t know how to pronounce his own name

[void tinsel]

(I liked Athamael the one time I met him!)

[slim parrot]

It isn't. But it did come across as very one-sided in the criticisms. I'm glad for people like Peri who we can have that conversation. I'll hit up Lylia's comment in a bit. Wifey needs a shoulder massage, and I'm smooth like that.

[inland quest]

Admittedly he did not choose to have his name SIMPLY BE A COMMON NOUN which feels like a cop out also

[flat hornet]

Hurtful!

[lusty kettle]

I would disagree. There were ample criticisms from both sides.

[inland quest]

That one was for GM Castle!

I AM EVEN HANDED

[hollow frigate]

And I think this loops back to something we talked about... I dunno... couple hours ago now?

Most storylines these days don't have the capacity for a little group of players to be taken aside to do a thing. So much time in front of NPCs is all about everybody at once.

Thus... a lot of avenues simply aren't possible because they can't be conducted in the same big room.

(And, I also acknowledge a lot of this boils down to each GM only being one person and having limited hours.)

[tranquil rune]

You showed up to Thorns things several times. How was it for you? Honest question.

[flat hornet]

This is why the Dusk Coven has a spa.

[lusty kettle]

There's also the perceived favoritism issue in those cases, too.

[nocturne delta]

Yeah, I kinda need.. like. Lots of warning and to pump myself up before it happens. To be frank, I'd rather ask for gentle head pats and cuddles from people than fight with them.

I'll reiterate... cuddles. Lots of them. No fussing, just affection.

[grand compass]

Water so hot they'll boil you alive?

[lusty kettle]

Which certainly makes plenty of us shy away from things.

[eager charm]

Yes, I would like to walk away from this thread today, my say day off, with some goodwill and hopeful feelings.

[flat hornet]

Teehee.

[vagrant oar]

Yeah, for sure, it's an unfortunate necessity of scheduling to an extent.

[nocturne delta]

... I'm gonna tackle hug your character next I see him. I wonder if he will complain or just sigh and say, "....Rather."

[lusty kettle]

This goes back to my reading the room bit. 🙂

RP should always be a two-way street and sometimes that means making adjustments with who you are engaging with.

[hollow frigate]

This is the same reason Raelee's actually sometimes less nice to people I'm friends with OOCly... because the trust is there and I know they understand.

[stark ginkgo]

Lol don't put him on the spot or anything

[void tinsel]

I went to Icemule once and was not immediately centered and validated. I would like to lodge a complaint.

[lusty kettle]

When Lylia turned against me and went anti-Casil, she brought up several important points. Check in with people on occasion, step back and engage in a more neutral settings at time, and give breathing space to the other people you are in conflict with.

[inland quest]

In rereading this list Tikba spent time arguing that we should let the reivers kill the barony. I enjoyed that! We had a bunch of player disagreement about that and it was certainly all opt in. What I didn’t enjoy and was disappointed by was having that conflict then move to OOC channels, sometimes in channels I wasn’t in. Which didn’t even seem necessary since I had already clearly lost the argument.

[lusty kettle]

My PC is a bit contentious and I have one person in particular that my PC REALLY does not get along with, and yet somehow they still have moments where they band together on the same side (probably while sniping at each other), or have a neutral or daresay a pleasant conversation.

It is by far my favorite conflict, and it's because we include all of those features.

[void tinsel]

I enjoyed Jadedragan's take on that a bunch. I know I keep bringing the guy up, but I really do think he exemplified RP conflict so beautifully.

[inland quest]

For the record I don’t think he quit, he just had a baby!

[lusty kettle]

OOC-checking in when things get heated... stepping back and having plaesant conversations on occasion, and not intruding too much on each other's space.

[glossy tangle]

I think part of the challenge is that while this can be very similar to a D&D session, it's much more difficult to get a read on the other player when you're not sharing the gaming table with them. Which makes these checkins even more important.

EDIT: This may also include converations where people express they don't want to engage with a particular type of RP.

[nocturne delta]

I did kinda note that you adjusted for my play, and I appreciate that. It makes me so happy to have a nice convo with Raelee. She is more forebearing than sharp with my character, and I get to let him act how he acts around elves, as in young, eager and needing instruction and care. He doesn't treat Raelee as a human.

[keen pelican]

I wouldn't take me as an average for many reasons. The first meeting I went to was definitely more anti-imperial than the last, but it was also at the height of the Thorns conflict within the storyline at the time. From an OOC standpoint, I didn't have much issue regarding either. IC wise, one was far more worrisome to Perigourd than the other.

But here's the thing. The levels of conflict I've endured since being back are FAR less than the levels of conflict I endured years ago. Some of that is because I sought conflict out. Some of that is because griefing was far more common. I made mistakes as much as suffered from others, but the important thing is that I learned from those mistakes to take more of other peoples feelings into consideration.

A big part of that was maturing as a person with a great mentor while training in combat sports over last decade and a half. After you've spent a decade with people trying to strangle you, many other things don't tend to bother you.

I've only been somewhat put off an event to the point of withdrawing once since being back(and no, it wasn't a Thorns event). And even then, if I hadn't been as physically tired as I was, I probably would have dealt with that better too, as the one who put me off is still someone I would engage with.

I very much came back to this game telling myself that if it was going to upset me as it did in the past or I wasn't going to play, and I'm happy that for the most part people here seem to care about eachother. The very fact that so many of us can passionately discuss this subject all day long despite other things going on in our lives points to our passion for engaging with eachother meaningfully.

[slim parrot]

It's been a year, man. Again, agreeing to disagree. I've done a lot of damage control. A LOT of damage control. Maybe not TODAY. But for as long as this has gone on, and it's been for a LONG TIME now, again, over a year? No. Not at all. There's a legit reason why many just left.

[void tinsel]

I don't remember the last time I had a pleasant conversation with some of the people who land on me the hardest on these threads. That makes me pretty sad, actually. I know it's not going to be pleasant, so I immediately dip out -- or I don't show up at all.

[nocturne delta]

Yukito actually was pushing the theory that the reivers were framed. It seemed way too convenient. Again, fun stories.

[lusty kettle]

I think you are viewing this very much from one side, to be honest. Tonight included criticisms from both sides. Ample. And healthy.

There's been a lot of damage control done on the other side, too.

[slim parrot]

I'm talking about the prelude of this to tonight. But it's fine. And I don't think I disagree with that.

[lusty kettle]

Right, but it's safe to say it's impacted both sides.

I don't know anything about the specifics of the conflict, but I am familiar with the fact it exists.

[nocturne delta]

Not only one "side" of characters are ditching the game over it. We all risk losing friends, and it doesn't benefit the health and longevity of the game to let that trend continue.

[void tinsel]

I'm not even sure which conflict sparked the Conflict thread here, nor which comments, but I have taken a lot of useful insight from it and gained a lot of respect for many people whom I haven't gotten to see as much in-game. And for certain GMs, even if I did totally target them.

[lusty kettle]

It's fine. I have a thick skin.

[tranquil rune]

Man, you can go like 100 rounds on endless in real life too?? Thanks for the honest response, and thanks for showing up, it meant a lot at the time and still does.

[lusty kettle]

Three nights of crying myself to sleep, and I'll be good as new.

[keen pelican]

It's kind of a joke at my dojo. I'm the one who doesn't tire.

[void tinsel]

I said a while back that we should look at who no longer engages on town channels or shows up at events, not at the people who do. I know plenty who've made their world smaller, or closed the door on it entirely, because of such strife.

[stark ginkgo]

Yardie has always been a very neutral figure in any discussion to say he is biased or one sided is a failure to understand how many perspectives Yardie processes....he can be annoyingly neutral on things

[lusty kettle]

Yeah, that's the other really important thing to note here. There are a lot of people who just do not participate in the conversations in public.

[tranquil rune]

Please tell me you also have a real sword.

[keen pelican]

I don't do Kobudo or Fencing, sadly. BJJ, Muay Thai, and Judo.

[flat hornet]

Yeah, I feel a little guilty here because a lot of you have migrated northward and I enjoy having you. (Again, even if some of you drive me nuts occasionally.)

And comment about how my halfling NPC shouldn't wear boots in freezing frigging cold.

[nocturne delta]

... I kinda want a real sword, and join groups like the SCA in real life. Sword fighting seems fun as heck.

[slim parrot]

And to this, I have no disagreement for the most part. If someone doesn't want to play about it, hey, cool. If there's a dilemma that comes about and it puts us at odds, my character will be respectful and courteous, but he will say what's on his mind.

If it leads to an impasse and us going our distances, that's fine. But where I have an issue is when that courtesy is extended, and jabs here and there persist, then it is going to lead to some sort of retort. And that happened a lot to the point where the accusations where made, then we find out it wasn't anyone that we knew or affiliated with. It was a lose-lose situation.

If you don't want to go to a Thorns potluck, fine. But I think it's bad to make the assumption that people wouldn't want you there, because there HAS been a healthy effort to talk, to have some sort of conversation and engagement.

[flat hornet]

I wish things had worked out for you in Wehnimer's, but we're still happy to have you in Northwatch.

[nocturne delta]

Hence my theory and curiosity on if this is a third party kicking the anthill, in some cases. In others, I'm starting to get jaded.

[compact pagoda]

I've heard the only person the Thorns wish would stop showing up is Yardie

[slim parrot]

Just might be. But what I want you to know is that we have really had lengthy discussions with others to make sure that privacy and courtesy is given.

[stark ginkgo]

.....he's never on time anyway

[void tinsel]

I have respect for the way you are playing the game; please respect my way of playing the game instead of telling me you "think it's bad to make the assumption." Please take a poll in the Thorns server, and I'm pretty sure you'd get a lot of N's in response to "Lylia? Y/N." 😄

[keen pelican]

He's too loaded down bringing up the pies.

[void tinsel]

Which, I should add, I am fine with! Not every party is for me. I actively do not want to intrude on anyone else's fun and, as a big proponent of "read the room," would feel I was not listening to my own advice on that.

[slim parrot]

I'll respect your way of play, but I've answered that question to you before, and I'll say it again. "You'd be surprised." And I'll leave it at that, because we're going in a loop.

[stark ginkgo]

Probably but you would get some y's it's a diverse group.....heck we were both sides of a recent icemule debacle.

[inland quest]

The word is “democracy”

I understand common is hard

[compact pagoda]

debacracy

[stark ginkgo]

Not that decent into evil...the other one....but to be fair also that one...like I said diverse

[eternal needle]

There are some people who read the room and think the script says "I'm the protagonist and can do no wrong." I think for conflict to exist we have to be okay with our characters being wrong and those who navigate them as well and being honest and open about growing from that..

[slim parrot]

I think for the most part, the group welcomes discussion. It's not a trollfest.

[void tinsel]

I feel as though I don't get enough chances on Lylia to do wrong. Err, I mean be wrong.

Wait, no. I was right the first time.

[lusty kettle]

Noted.

[eternal needle]

Start wearing fustian

[lusty kettle]

After I ruin Lylia's life since we're arch nemeses now.

[eager charm]

Lylia's point about who no longer shows up cannot be underscored enough.

A lot of, if we're going to talk about Evil Empire stuff for a moment, the pushback about it boils down to our sandboxes getting smaller. That is, we lost and are still losing players to this style of play- which at times has felt like a relentless barrage of incendiary media, IC and OOC and in game and out. I want to believe that, to force players out of the game, isn't the goal of players on the other end of the spectrum, but not only is it the result of their actions, it is in my personal anecdotal experience what the goal of the dozens of players harassing me during Cross Into Shadows was.

Now, this isn't to point fingers. I just want to highlight what's been said ad nauseum, which is please remember there is someone paying for this entertainment for their free time leisuretime fun hobby on the other side of the screen who is just trying to have a good time.

[void tinsel]

I hope you've spoken to the Guild of Calamitous Intent about that, Casil. No arching without a license.

[lusty kettle]

Oh, I have a license.

[iron edge]

(It's written in crayon.)

[lusty kettle]

(Don't expose my secrets.)

[iron edge]

(Conflict!)

[flat hornet]

Quick, target Gyres.

[lusty kettle]

(I'll see you outside.)

There is literally nothing wrong with Gyres to even attempt to target.

[inland quest]

Isn’t he a vesperti?

[flat hornet]

TOO perfect.

[inland quest]

That literally makes him targetable!

[flat hornet]

See? Anything can be a detriment if you have enough of it.

[gilded shale]

Gyres is Bat-Bat.

[iron edge]

This is why I just lurk and don't talk. Doomed.

[lusty kettle]

That's just your own jealousy talking about Gyres's perfection.

It's okay. We're all envious.

[flat hornet]

[lusty kettle]

Is everyone tired and ready for bed yet?

[stark ginkgo]

I do believe this particular conflict( in the landing) has driven off players.....we (the thorns) have lost some as well....I could say conflict runs that risk and that's why it's dangerous. Some people left Icemule over the blood magic vote. Dendum isn't going to any MMTs for awhile I am sure of that. As long as they just land somewhere else it's fine.

The ones that are sad are the ones who just dip out completely.

[compact pagoda]

it's only 10pm

[void tinsel]

I miss seeing Bristenn at things, and I know why he is not at them. You make a wonderful point, not just about the game but about the degree of exhaustion we all must surely feel with that constant barrage of doomsaying and turmoil from the real world. It should feel more like an escape from it than it does sometimes. I'd like to believe that too, that most of us don't want to see most of the rest of us leave and that the degree of passion we have for the game comes out in these heated discussions but that we ultimately want to continue sharing the same world.

I don't know how we all reel it back in.

[flat hornet]

I don't think any players left IMT over the blood magic vote, FWIW.

It's entirely an in-character thing that doesn't affect the player experience at all.

And people behaved well about the vote on both sides.

[stark ginkgo]

....I think you have lost at least two

[slim parrot]

And if they left IC, that would be cool.

I loved it though. It was an awesome discussion, debate, and process.

[nocturne delta]

We were recently asked to just start WARNing, REPORTing, and ASSISTing. Some of these behaviors are unable to be tracked and names tagged on, because of how its being done, but really... EVERYBODY. We've talked it out to death. A lot of us probably don't want to do the official warning thing to keep the peace, but ping the people starting nonsense, start a papertrail. We'll get to the bottom of who is responsible faster, and be able to stop pointing fingers.

[void tinsel]

You're a GM. You print the licenses.

[lusty kettle]

Right. It's a notably corrupt system.

[flat hornet]

If people are actually upset over the results of an in-game vote where everyone behaved, I don't really know what to say there.

I will say that I haven't heard from any.

[hollow frigate]

Maybe some new material might help. An invasion from the previously-unknown badger people from across the sea.

And while that sounds glib...

I have a great love for longform storytelling. I love a story that goes on for years.

... yet at the same time, if the same story continues, the old conflicts are always kind of on the table.

[slim parrot]

I'm sure some characters are disappointed. PEOPLE? Nah.

[stark ginkgo]

I think it's mostly characters....I think it was handled very well

[nocturne delta]

Psssh. No. I don't generally go to sleep until 3-4am. Though, as I said, I am more cranky after midnight.

[eternal needle]

Orrrr just operate in the biosphere of Gemstone that fits you best. And don't run into other biospheres and try to get the ecosystem to change because you don't thrive there but the rest of the community does.

[inland quest]

I will say, in the nicest possible way, that I am sympathetic to the point that we all just want to play together and not have people leave the game, but my sympathies lessen rapidly when I feel like the desire also includes making the OTHER people leave the game or be removed from it. We need to treat others as we would like to be treated. I'd like to play with everyone.

[lusty kettle]

It's also okay to not want to play with everyone.

[nocturne delta]

That would work, if it were not in my biosphere. Trust me, I've tried. I also have said that I don't participate in storylines that I don't want to. That is not really this.

It would probably squash it all if we just used official tools.

[void tinsel]

I have always held off on WI and haven't done it, especially when my character was necessarily at a lot of events; I felt a WI would have limited others' freedom to be there, so I just bit my tongue and dealt with any trolls that came a-trollin'. But you make a point that if people were to make official paper trails, it might make life easier for GMs. I've just always been reticent to do it. I think I used it once and felt bad about it.

[slim parrot]

I'm down for a paper trail.

[stark ginkgo]

WI limits your freedom....that's the catch

[nocturne delta]

I've only NEARLY used WI once in my 20+ years of gaming. I'm just gonna go ahead and use the rtools.

[void tinsel]

I don't want to play with everyone, and that's fine. But I also want them to have their fun in their ways and in their space. Lylia just won't come over for tea. Which, again, is also entirely fine!

[void tinsel]

Rtools? I feel like there is a thing I do not know and should!

[stark ginkgo]

I've never felt the need to WI anyone and don't even leave people on discord ignore more than a couple of days....and that a rare occurrence.

[lusty kettle]

Even as a GM, I have no interest in some places, and mild to moderate interest in other areas. It's not personal against players, I just feel like each town has a vibe and some I jive with and some I do not.

[nocturne delta]

😔 I also type worse after midnight. Heh.

[void tinsel]

Haha, I really thought it was a thing I had missed and was like, "Oh, new things! " 😄 Sorry; I'm the one who's daft here.

[eager charm]

Roletools

[west moss]

... I have caught up.
That's the total of my input at the moment but I must announce so I don't feel the hour of lost sleep was wasted

[lusty kettle]

I'm pretty sure I've been sitting here for so long that my legs fell asleep.

Rememer when I said I was going back to my vacation?

Like five hours ago

[nocturne delta]

I think there is also the low key concern that if you start having the kind of relationship with people where you are throwing warnings around, you may be perceived as the problem. I don't want to get tagged as an issue, but I'm really ready to just ping the actual responsible parties and call it a day. It's not fun to think that you are bothering the GMs constantly over drama.

[slim parrot]

Go stretch. Play Baldur's Gate

[gilded shale]

Congratulations? Condolences?

[lusty kettle]

You don't want me to do that. You would never see me again.

I limit what kind of games I play so that I don't forget I am a GM.

(Lylia, don't get any ideas.)

[void tinsel]

Tsk. Fine.

[lusty kettle]

Maybe I should start a Group Therapy with Casil once a month.

[nocturne delta]

I'm pretty good at relaxation readings, I'm told! Very soothing voice for meditation!

[lusty kettle]

Next topic: Trauma from being a Newbie in the 90s

[eternal needle]

I think whatever it takes to get through this era and out in the other side is necessary. And while I super appreciate Casil and Elysani being so engaged here, I wish they were working on boutiques and art collections and community gardens instead of grief counseling.

[honest meadow]

I already finished A Twist of Roses.

[hollow frigate]

Bringing in an IC therapist would be delightfully fascinating too...

... most of our characters probably need it.

[honest meadow]

https://tenor.com/view/dancing-cowboy-finger-gun-pointing-moves-gif-17170914

[lusty kettle]

I mean to be fair, I was just going to be binge-watching television tonight so I wouldn't have been working on those things anyway.

[eternal needle]

Proveit.gif

[inland quest]

This would be a big problem for tikba

[nocturne delta]

Me too. They are pretty great. Still, I'm just gonna use the tools given so that this all can just end, the people responsible get tagged, and we move on.

[eager charm]

Well, I mean at best I just want to stress putting oneself in another's shoes, as trite as that always sounds, and how important it is to cooperative and shared storytelling.

[compact pagoda]

my fav part of today was reading the TV OOC log and fishing came up and they said ask Iskandr and dude was all "oh, yeah, saw that dude camping alone out in the middle of nowhere last night." Which proves I'm still throwing parties, just not telling anyone where they are. 😛

[void tinsel]

I binge-watched a little, and then my husband was like, "I see you on your phone still arguing," and I felt bad, so I put the phone down and then picked it back up again...but we all know the real juice in a conflict must be done by flailing away at the keyboard, not tippy-tapping at a screen or muttering at your phone!

[lusty kettle]

Okay. I am walking away from the computer for a wee bit. Please do not fall apart in my absence. It's been a long night.

[hollow frigate]

Thank you again, Casil!

[lusty kettle]

Oh, yeah, I put the phone away and sat down at the computer long ago. I tried initially on the phone and I'm too old for that.

[nocturne delta]

Yeah, I'm probably gonna actually finish FF7R so I'm ready for the next game.

[eager charm]

Yes, thank you.

[void tinsel]

Hey, for what it's worth, it's felt like a productive one. Thank you, truly. ❤️

[lusty kettle]

YW. I want us to be able to have healthy conversations around RP because obviously we're all really passionate about it and it's the most important part of this game to me.

[nocturne delta]

Ack! What'd I do, Auchand?! Cloud is a total twinky babe and I... oh, that's what the squirt bottle is for...

[lusty kettle]

And that's not because I don't know anything about mechanics and so when I fight on my NPCs with y'all I just spam MSTRIKE.

I will peek back in before I go to bed and make sure everyone is chill.

If not, I'm blaming it on Alosaka since he's not here and the crash was his fault earlier.

[gilded shale]

Remake was a treat. Enjoy it 🙂

[nocturne delta]

I mean... at least lower your roundtime before the Mstrike with a Quickstrieke. Shaves off at least 2 seconds for more stamina. And use Stamina burst and... you know what? Just give it to me, yeesh.

[flat hornet]

Cloud is a twinky babe, but I still like Squall better. 😦

And Tidus > Squall > Cloud

It's a tough life.

[eager charm]

Also, I will take this opportunity to push my own agenda, which is Whole Town is Supernode.

Why bother with just one or two supernodes, or a handful of regular nodes? How's about whole town is supernode. Then the RP can go anywhere, not just in one noisy bot filled space!

[flat hornet]

See, this is the real conflict. The last eight hours were just to prepare you.

[nocturne delta]

Squall was too emo for my tastes. Like Cloud has big trauma. Must protecc. Shy boy. GASP. NO! NOT TIDUS!

[flat hornet]

Cloud's not even a real person!

...he said, while defending Tidus.

[smoky glacier]

Everybody ignoring Vaan

[eager charm]

Everybody is ignoring Lightning too, which is a shame

[flat hornet]

As it should be.

[nocturne delta]

Frankly, Layle I think it is, from Crystal Bearers is much swagger, such wow.

[flat hornet]

Sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of the theme music repeating again.

[gilded shale]

He's not even the leading man!

[nocturne delta]

I'm gonna get hate for this but... I liked Hope more than Lightning.. who is also a blonde... is there a pattern? Naw...

[west moss]

Real conflict statement coming, square up.
Noctis > all

[gilded shale]

https://tenor.com/view/biggs-balthier-final-fantasy-final-fantasy-vii-final-fantasy-xii-gif-16946862

[eager charm]

no one cares for the ramza anymore

[nocturne delta]

(gasp) Yaaas to Noctis. Hrm... though in this instance... Gladioulous because good lord. Prompto looked like a sickly chocobo.

[smoky glacier]

Balthier knows wassup.

[gilded shale]

My love for Ivalice in general is absolute. ❤️ Ramza et al.

[west moss]

Poor Ramza is still looking for his nose

[gilded shale]

It's okay, they found it for the Stormblood alliance raids

[lusty kettle]

Same.

[flat hornet]

It's the jacket.

[lusty kettle]

Yep.

And the scar.

[flat hornet]

I do realize that a jacket is not a personality trait, but for Squall, it is.

[lusty kettle]

And the gunblade.

[nocturne delta]

Now hear me out. Sephiroth/Cloud.

[west moss]

This is how you summon Xeraphina

[lusty kettle]

Seifer/Squall

[gilded shale]

Are you.. are you shipping? Is this a shipping thread now

[iron edge]

"conflict"

[nocturne delta]

Ooooh. You see, alone, no so much. But when you push them next to each other... it works!

[pliant plover]

One day tactics ogre will get all the recognition it deserves.

[west moss]

As a fandom old, can confirm no greater conflict than shipping wars

[gilded shale]

The definition of conflict is Cloud x Tifa stans vs Cloud x Aeris enjoyers on social media. It's weird. I went down the rabbit hole one day, and those people are far more vicious than any GS Discord spat has ever thought about being.

[grand compass]

I look away for a few hours and we're on Final Fantasy now?

And I wasn't even tagged?

[void tinsel]

I liked Squall. Wore mostly black, kept his emotions reined in, GenX moodiness. I may have a "type."

[gilded shale]

It's called healing

[nocturne delta]

Still conflict! And I'm gonna dig DEEP into fandoms here, Tifa/Aerith and Cloud is like Relena and Heero. You CAN put them together, but why?

[west moss]

The wrongest I've ever seen anyone ever be on the internet was saying Ashe/Vaan. I will never recover and I wish a curse upon their house

[smoky glacier]

God, Ashe. Ugh. I was just lamenting what a not good character she was.

[gilded shale]

... why are you so full of mischief

[eager charm]

Now see here you

[gilded shale]

DON'T BELIEVE ONDORE'S LIES

[keen yarrow]

Is that what this is?! I was so confused.

[smoky glacier]

Tonight's mission: Find the Vaan x Balthier fanfiction I KNOW one of you wrote.

[flat hornet]

We could move on to Ogre Battle.

Warren: dark horse candidate for hottest mage?

[gilded shale]

I mean, Let Us Cling Together is absolutely the second greatest SRPG ever made

[pliant plover]

poor lancelot

[nocturne delta]

Ayup! Final Fantasy cuties, and who we stan. I direct your attention to Final Fantasy online and Alphinaud.

[grand compass]

Yes. I'm so mad that no one tagged me and I had to wander in just before bed to see it.

[smoky glacier]

Tellah got that wrapped. Or the Moon Daddy.

[flat hornet]

Oh, Tellah.

I'd go full Saltburn on Kain, though. You know he doesn't skip leg day.

[gilded shale]

All right, I endured Oro praising Vaan, and the disrespect to Tifa. But this is where I draw the line, Yukito!

[west moss]

I didn't tag because I was like, she's probably asleep.
I don't know what I was thinking

[honest meadow]

Don't make me do math.

[grand compass]

I should be asleep. I stayed up to work on ||[redacted]||

[nocturne delta]

But... but... angry little cutie. Must hug! And he has a literal twin so I can see him dressed up in even cuter stuff. Win/win!

[iron edge]

Counterpoint: Alisaie exists.

[olive fern]

Excuse me, but I gotta speak up on Yukito's behalf: Alphi is a total cutie.

[gilded shale]

FFXIV and who we stan, hmm. Is it cheating if I say Fran? Because it's Fran.

[iron edge]

Red twin > blue twin, fite me.

[honest meadow]

Counter-counter point: Estinien.

[iron edge]

Sustained.

[shy folio]

Sorry, but my Crystalbearer, Stone Beefneck, from FFXIV is obviously the most important FF protagonist of all.

[olive fern]

I'll still all about Hades, can't break me.

[gilded shale]

His name cracked me up so hard when I saw it. And even more when it turned out to be you.

[smoky glacier]

You know were all civilized humans because nobody went full Zidane.

[nocturne delta]

I concede the point! They are so cute. The fact that's Alphun is a healer type class is part of my love, though. Those lasers.

[west moss]

Supporting argument: Aymeric

[flat hornet]

I only know of the online FFs' characters because I wasted money on FF Record Keeper.

[shy folio]

Also pours one out for my bro Haurchefant

[honest meadow]

Okay, fair.

[gilded shale]

"Ah, I wonder if Thrassus made a nice refined Duskwight caster type." NOPE. HIT SQUARE IN THE JAW BY STONE BEEFNECK THE SHIRTLESS HIGHLANDER

[shy folio]

He did start out as a Muscle Wizard (Pugilist)

[gilded shale]

Open those chakras, hnnngh

No regrets in my soon-to-be Viper Rabbitman life.

[inland quest]

Because the stakes are higher

[gilded shale]

But also, there are quite a few Ogre Battle inspired armor sets in XIV. My warrior ran around in Oz's full suit of armor for the longest time

[lusty kettle]

🫣

:tucks everyone in:

[cerulean nimbus]

Stupid timezones mean that everyone is now tucked up in bed but I’ve found a few minutes of downtime in work to catch up. I did ponder whether or not to respond but since that is part of what I want to address, I felt I should.

As a human being, I tend to avoid anything confrontational because it makes me very uncomfortable so I walk away. Saying that, I am more than happy to see well-played IC conflict. I enjoy seeing Roh challenged even if her reaction is to build a book fort and hide (she's like me in that respect). I then get to watch all the intrigue and plotting play out from a safe distance.

It was Lilanna who nailed the issue for me: "The problem is it just all comes here... where it shouldn't" and Greatfalls who pointed out how it was even happening in this thread and added, "that doesn't give me a lot of faith in conflict being fun/staying IC."

As Elysani pointed out, we are all heavily invested in our characters and the parts of the world in which we play. This says a lot about why I love playing this game but when it constantly spills over into finger pointing west, east, north and south with derisory comments about each community's activities/storylines (whatever you want to call it), I begin to love it less and less.

Yukito's comment about unsubbing hit a chord with me as I have considered it too recently. This circles back to the very thing that triggered this thread in the first place: the need to focus on community building and strengthening it so it becomes a better platform for conflict. I may be wrong - I really hope I am - but it seems to me that, as a playerbase, we are more divided than ever and everyone is tending towards silo roleplaying. Bristenn said it best, “sandboxes getting smaller” and I am just as guilty of this.

I have read a lot of very positive discussion and also a lot of what Casil refers to as "blanket statements" here and elsewhere. i wish the latter would stop as it's exhausting and why I've largely stepped away from discord. I hope we can all move forward in 2024 with more thought given to the human on the other side of the screen.

Be kind to one another and to hamsters (I saw that threat to Casil's hamster, Lylia!). As Tikba said, “We need to treat others as we would like to be treated. I'd like to play with everyone.” Personally, I’m just going to take Roh to Solhaven so she can join Yukito’s cuddle pile.

[grave badge]

I love this community. I've spent the better part of almost the past decade avoiding big story lines for sort of all the reasons above. If I'm not vested in a story, I don't have to pick a side. Myharl is just up in the Hinterwilds doing his thing now. That being said, just want to say that I really do think this community is great, and even if things get heated like in here, there's still no other place I'd rather be.

[torpid pagoda]

I feel like I need to spend more quality time in Cold River.

[grave badge]

The grim façade really does mask a lot of beauty in the place. It's a wonderful place to contemplate and focus on the moment.

[harsh tundra]

signs up

[slim parrot]

The investment in characters is true. There's been a lot of work to maintain different positions while playing to the nature of our characters. The concern is also that whatever ground that a person is doing to play to the nature of our characters and stay true without offending others' feels in question here. Ladies and gentlemen, it's been over a year for many of us when the most prominent situation blew up. I remember writing a post to said group who had concerns about how they'd be labeled explaining how to approach this while trying to be careful. I've spoken to many sides of the aisle. I've presented the issues, positions, and intentions. The goal is to be fair and cordial and consider everyone's play when doing things.

For all the grief Queatus got, HE was the one who wanted to reach out and find a solution. He came into this very hopeful, and he got shot down. You ain't gotta like him, but I've seen the work he has put into the other side, and it's not malicious.

Last night left me frustrated. Are there people wanting to leave over all of this? Yes. But that goes to both sides, which needs to be mentioned. I'm staying until I'm done and my character is done. When that happens, I'm probably not coming back. But the many I have conversed with share the same frustrations as Yuki and others, and they also want to leave. They're seeing and feeling something that isn't conducive to the nature of the game. That nature feels like real life, whether people admit it or not.

I could get all Language Arts here to discuss conflict, protagonist, antagonist, foil, etc. It won't matter. People are going to feel how they feel.

In my case, I'll reach out and check on people. If someone we know acts like a jerk, I have no shame in calling out a friend. Respect goes both ways, though. We all can strive to be better. It's good to play together. And if not, Gemstone is big enough to go elsewhere.

It's MLK day. Spending it with loved ones. Peace.

[harsh tundra]

A WI limits your freedom, honestly. It's why I have never used it because you, as the person who WI'd, is expected to remove yourself if the other party shows up is how I understand it.

[lusty kettle]

I'll clarify this here, though I'm trying not to get embroiled today... WARN INTERACT only requires you to leave on the initial warning.

You are not required, in the future, to remove yourself from events, storyline things, gathering spots, etc after a WARN INTERACT. You are required to not interact directly with them or about them in the future.

[eternal needle]

Ohhh I did not know that.

[lusty kettle]

The reason we ask everyone to part ways at the onset of the WARN INTERACT is to keep things from escalating (because they do).

[gilded shale]

Good to know. I was of the same understanding as Stormy.

[lusty kettle]

Once it's issued and everyone involved has had a cooldown period, you're good to continue living your life. Don't talk about the person. Don't talk to the person. Don't whisper about the person. Don't make jabs you think are subtle, because they are not subtle. Do not make jabs you think are unsubtle. That person basically does not exist to you.

[harsh tundra]

Thank you, that was not at all my understanding and my misunderstanding had been reinforced by situations in game. I appreciate that clarification, I shall useth the tool liberally from now on. (er, likely not but hey it sounded good).

[lusty kettle]

That being said, if you WARN INTERACT someone, don't show up at that person's birthday party.

[radiant cipher]

But I got you a nice gift! 😦

[lusty kettle]

REPORT Ethereal is talking to me again after a WARN INTERACT

So still show good judgment in that regard, but for public gatherings, spaces, events, etc you are good to go.

[grand compass]

You also have WARN HARASS, which is less severe than WI and does allow for freedom to continue RP at a future point when both parties have cooled down.

Autocracy strikes Akan

[radiant cipher]

One other facet worth mentioning: warn interact is by player and not character. Showing up on an alt to their birthday party is also a no-no.

[lusty kettle]

Oh, yeah. That too. LOL.

[gilded shale]

Yes, makes perfect sense

[lusty kettle]

Technically with WARN HARASS you can continue engaging then at the moment. Only WARN INTERACT requires parties split.

It's just meant to be a like "Hey I am not actually having fun" remark--though I would recommend honestly first trying to just let the person know in an OOC whisper before going to that step, so it's not feeling so much like you called the fuzz about it.

[smoky glacier]

Just coming back to this because of a gaping oversight I made last night that I think is critically important to discuss:

Celes Chere x Locke Cole(!)

And if nobody has made an SK female warrior x trad rogue in the vein I think we need a remedy asap.

(they could fight the empire as rebels. Also I said Edgar and had to edit because I am old and forgot.. but Edgar!)

[grand compass]

I'm on my phone rn and can only respond so much. XD

[lusty kettle]

Not a pairing of my choice.

[smoky glacier]

pro empire scum! (/s to keep it chill)

[west moss]

The real wars are the shipping wars.

[gilded shale]

So, let's talk Fire Emblem

[smoky glacier]

the shipping wars are cover for the magicite smugging.

RP comedy gold guys. Prime folks. It's all written out. Just need a GM to do green hair.

[radiant cipher]

Magitek armor coming to a DR near you.

[smoky glacier]

official teaser.

[gilded shale]

Will buy, but only if it plays an MIDI rendition of Terra's Theme when used

[harsh tundra]

One thing that I really wish occurred more often before storylines that have the potential to really fire up different groups is a session zero, an OOC moment where the GM outlines the rules of engagement, and by that I mean clarifies for players what the realities of the situation are.

Using the Landing storyline as an example; an OOC meeting that made it clear at the beginning of the storyline that the Empire is not going to take over WL, even though characters may take that perspective--having the players all understand what the reality is may have been helpful.

Stormy can disagree with anyone--and have healthy and fun for me conflict with many people, until as players we can't agree what is really going on and that becomes a part of the conflict. I have seen that happen, where in discord the OOC reality of the situation has been brought up to remind us all of what is OOCLY true and then it is debated as not true. That is when I step back, because if we're not even playing the same game (in terms of understanding, OOCLY, where the lines are) then it becomes not fun for me very quickly. I'm all for character freedoms. I'm less interested in continuing interactions with players who want to insist the OOC lines/situations/etc do not exist and it is instead Y. That breeds player frustration vs character frustration. Stormy is fun when she's frustrated, I am decidedly not and I become a grumpy Gen-Xer very quickly.

Also the use of discord as an IC method of communication gets messy quickly, imho.

That being said, some of the characters I have the most fun with are ones that Stormy is at odds with --but as players we check in with each other often just to confirm it's not too much/too far. An oocly whispered smiley face does a TON to remind the other player that this is supposed to be fun. And if it's not, then it stops or gets pulled back. I also appreciate those who have heard me when I have let them know I was not having fun with something going on, and they were quick to rectify it. That always goes a long way.

Also: Impact > intent. Always.

[smoky glacier]

Pretty sure this midi was my original RDI character homepage.

[gilded shale]

Red Dragon Inn?

[lusty kettle]

I'll give you ten gold stars for "impact > intent" comment. 😄

The thing with session zero, which we've discussed before on why this is complicated...

1. No matter how much we plan or try to predict how players are going to react, we are never right. So knowing what to cover in session zero would be tough, and we're inevitably going to have unexpected reactions anyway.
2. We're not at a table with known characters beforehand. Our character count is also much higher than you'd have at a traditional tabletop session. And fluctuates wildly throughout.
3. Storylines are ultimately unpredictable because of this. Even in a tabletop session, players never do what you expect them to do. Now scale that to the number of people involved. Storylines are constantly getting adjusted based on what characters have done, outcomes get adjusted, etc. Session zero sets us up for failure off the bat, because then we tell people something is or isnt' going to happen, and then it does because that's how the story ends up going. What if we told everyone the Empire wasn't going to take over the Landing, and then all the characters push for the Empire to take over the Landing? (which I realize wouldn't happen unless y'all decided to troll us, but it's just the point).

So while I don't disagree, having some general expectations set up would be nice, in my honest opinion, I think it would just set up more conflict in multiple ways, particularly against staff.

[eternal needle]

I don't think stating the outcome in necessary but maybe themes and trigger warnings?

"This storyline will deal with political intrigue, court gossip, snide nobles, infectious farm animals and is forecasted to change little about the state of lore."

"This storyline will deal with matricide, kaiju-like creatures, has the potential to pit characters against each other and can potentially change the footprint of Kraken's Fall."

[stark ginkgo]

I have honestly wondered if trigger warnings are a thing we need to have as well. It's not a recommendation for them. It's just a question I have also asked.

[lusty kettle]

I think trigger warnings has a kind of derogatory connotation to some people, so it's something I'd avoid calling it, but I think themes are nice. Not everyone wants to participate in some themes.

[eternal needle]

I don't know if trigger warning is the right word for it but I know a lot of people who have just had fatigue over children murders as an example.

[lusty kettle]

Some people do have sensitivities to certain topics, for various reasons.

[stark ginkgo]

Not trying to argue or have a conflict over the semantics of the word trigger warning. My only concern with them is does that not just silo off the game even more? Are we not just creating slices of a pie and is that not one of the problems we are currently having?

[lusty kettle]

I don't think it silos the game off even more to make sure people are even interested in investing their time in a storyline.

Most of us are adults with lives and/or jobs and/or children and/or spouses and/or family and/or other hobbies. As was noted last night, this is leisure time for a lot of people. Giving people the opportunity ahead of time to know if that's how they wish to spend their leisure time is not a bad thing.

[eternal needle]

even the use of "problem" - like some people say the siloing off is a problem but I think it's more of people just finding their niche. Whether that's town-based, storyline based, MHO based. I don't think everyone is looking for huge sweeping global storylines and are quite content with slice of life or the occasional big bad.

[stark ginkgo]

That's more of a larger picture issue, but it is something to talk about. Are we looking for a community that is game wide or are we okay with several slices of communities? There's no wrong answer

[gilded shale]

Sometimes street-level Daredevil is just as satisfying as Avengers Endgame

[lusty kettle]

So, from my perspective, I am interested in slices of communities. As a GAME WIDE community, I want the roleplayers to all coexist without blow up conflicts, but I am not personally interested in attracting every single roleplayer all at once to things I do in Ta'Vaalor.

That being said, there's a variety of storyline types to do, and I encourage people from other towns to come join us if what I am doing interests them. Not all storylines are for everyone.

[eternal needle]

As long as there is mutual respect, I prefer that each area has their own flavor. My character would never fit in other spaces and I don't need to seek change in those other places to make her fit.

[olive fern]

I could see it happening. Also, Edgar! 😍

[cerulean nimbus]

Niches are wonderful - I'm all for that - but they become silos when there isn't mutual respect and IMO that is where we're currently at.

[stark ginkgo]

Oh yes, we are definitely broken. But we also might have a pile of super glue and some will.

[olive fern]

Slice of life is where it's at for me as a roleplayer, I wholeheartedly back this last statement up in particular.

[lusty kettle]

I think there's will.

[eternal needle]

how do things look different when there is mutual respect in your opinion? Like what changes.

[lusty kettle]

There's not always great communication >.> But there's will.

But there's one thing we all agree on, which is that roleplay is important to us.

[stark ginkgo]

We have two very large group of players who are effectively at this point at, limited contact

[cerulean nimbus]

Exactly that, Casil. Open communication that doesn't devolve into OOC derision in discord servers/channels is the first indicator of mutual respect. We can all accept that not everything is for everyone so let it be just that. Enjoy your niche, let others enjoy theirs as long as no one is hurting anyone else or ruining someone else's niche.

[lusty kettle]

There's probably a little more than that at limited contact--I mean number of groups, but your point is still accurate.

It is absolutely a problem.

[stark ginkgo]

Yeah I'm just speaking of what I know about. I do know there's some other issues and other areas

[lusty kettle]

Someone call MacGyver. That's what we really need.

Since all we have is superglue and a will.

I assume by will you mean someone's last will and testament.

But in all seriousness, I think it's a fixable situation.

[harsh tundra]

https://tenor.com/bImMd.gif

[lusty kettle]

I'm concerned about you choosing Agatha All Along, tbh.

[harsh tundra]

And sometimes life dictates that. For me, I can never be in for 'prime time' storytelling (I'm PST and have a large family) and I can't even make KST much anymore (because I'm old and need sleep). So I have always been caught between; KST or no storyline..and now it's KST or no sleep 😂.

[lusty kettle]

Stormy is now forever the ubervillain in my head, secretly pulling all the strings. >.>

[harsh tundra]

https://tenor.com/bdGJ8.gif

[eternal needle]

I think limited contact is only a problem when these "silos" are forced together and there isn't some kind of understanding about thematically why that makes sense. But otherwise I'm happy to let other people do their thing in peace, it sounds like based on most of the responses that's the case.

Someone doesn't need to endorse another group's themes/wishes or know all the ends and outs to be demonstrating respect for their right to roleplay how they see fit, do they?

[harsh tundra]

I mean....Have you met Stormy? Formal titles include: Red Witch and Marshal of the Landing Militia. Less formal titles include Blood Witch..I'm just sayin.

[stark ginkgo]

I think that's generally the case

I think if we were drawing a role play map, there would be some overlay between the communities of the two major cities in the elven nations and the three major cities of the west. But even within those overlaps there are independent communities

[lusty kettle]

There's always going to be some overlap between the east and west, too.

[olive fern]

Too many villains in the Not So Secret Villain Hideouts, if you ask me. I challenge more people to RP good guys! 😉

[stark ginkgo]

Good luck with that

[inland quest]

tikba is a good guy!

[lusty kettle]

Even if there's some overlay and overlap, I still do feel each city has its own vibe.

[olive fern]

Hey, I can hope. I'll keep hoping, too. 😛

[lusty kettle]

And that's a good thing, because that means there's places for everyone.

I can tell you now, some of the events I've run/done other places... like one I ran in RR, or the pirate stuff in KF, would never fly in TV. Wrong vibe.

Super fun. We had a blast in RR, had a blast in KF, but would have gone down like a lead balloon in TV.

[stoic raven]

I love both RR and KF but they both suffer from a similar problem for me... RR taps out around level 65ish and KF... i'm not there yet. There's also nowhere for me to transfer my shop too if i wanted to move there.

[hollow frigate]

And I think this goes back to the core idea that started this thread.

People asked for less conflict in storylines... and what the real meat of that request is... less storylines that seemed designed to put those silos at odds with each other.

[lusty kettle]

Can I put my silo at odds with itself? 🤔

[stark ginkgo]

Listen, I started this current storyline hoping and actually fully understanding that the person in charge of it would have an off ramp. That idea came from an intense level of respect for that person and the fact that that person is one of the main reasons I stay in this game. Right now I'm wondering if there's an off-ramp large enough to get us off.

[lusty kettle]

Put a line of masking tape down the center like in an old sitcom.

[cerulean nimbus]

I agree, Raelee. My point was, and still is, that we should be working towards removing the sense of a silo and trying to get to the niches I think everyone desires.

[lusty kettle]

Can you elaborate on what you mean on that last sentence?

[whole widget]

so long as I'm on the side of Sweethen's...

[hollow frigate]

I think one potential 'off-ramp' is maybe some fresh material.

Like... if we keep doing storylines about the same stuff that are just evolutions of past problems... this conflicts never truly go away.

Something fresh, truly genuinely fresh might help - a bit of a blank slate.

[stark ginkgo]

I don't think we ever go back to where we were before North by Northwest

[lusty kettle]

Ah, gotcha. This is where I put my deer in headlights look on because I've no idea what's going on with that.

But what I will say is things can always be resolved, in the long run. There's always a solution.

[gilded shale]

I heard Sweethen was a terror on the battlefield in her day. It is a moniker that was once given to her ironically. After her retirement and committing to baking, she sweetened to the role ||I made all of that up, but I'm not sorry about it.||

[hollow frigate]

I think the tldr of it is that... it really forced an explosive boiling point in the pro/anti Imperial RP. And now those hurts run very deep on both sides.

[lusty kettle]

Gotcha, thank you. I'm just piecing random things together from tidbits of conversation in here over the last day.

[hollow frigate]

And I think the unfortunate result is that both sides feel intensely unwelcome and it's resulted in honestly a lot of people from both sides just walking away. In some cases from the storyline... but we've also lost some players completely because of it. The damage is deep.

[lusty kettle]

That's what I've gathered so far.

[stark ginkgo]

Yes we really had some excellent people check out and I mean completely out

[velvet field]

At this point I'd even take just being able to enter the pawnshop in the Landing wearing my thorn amulet instead of being banned from it. That's been going on a year now and never went anywhere else.

[stark ginkgo]

Yes, even after the person behind that was responsible for an intense number of deaths in the landing it still keeps going

[vagrant oar]

The irony on that last one is that at points in this story, I strongly considered making the turn and having Leafi push for the Empire to take over the Landing. I had a whole song parody ready for it: “I’ll Make An Imp Out Of You.” 👀

And it wouldn’t have been trolling, it would have attempting to adjust my character to what she and I perceived as the general community sentiment.

[inland quest]

(the Empire already rules the Landing so the entire discussion is confused)

[lusty kettle]

So, I'm not over that general area so I am not going to comment from a GM-side of what should/could be done--I'd definitely address those at your OOC meetings if you haven't had them yet... but from player-side perspective, I think the conversations we've had in here have opened up a lot on how people are feeling. I certainly see how and why each side feels the way they do.

And ultimately the best solution from a player's position is what we talked about last night, at length. Remember there's a person behind the character who is as invested in their character as you are in yours. Be willing to adjust to the comfort level of people you want to engage with. Remember to step back from the conflict sometimes with neutral or even pleasant interactions. Use OOC communication to show good will and check on people we're interacting with in times of conflict. If your intent doesn't match the reaction/perception, reflect and adjust.

That's the start to repairing some of the deep hurts. On both sides.

[harsh tundra]

It happens to Stormy too, when she has a thorn in her pocket. I have to throw it in a Veola or toss it in a locker, very frustrating!

[inland quest]

actually recently we had an invasion of TSC and I tried to drag dendum into the thrak for triage there only to discover that you can't drag somebody wearing a thorn into the raging thrak haha

[lusty kettle]

Another thing I'll toss in there upon reflection, is to also consider what the person's intentions MAY be--since I don't think anyone has expressed any intent to inflict discomfort or unhappiness on players.

[eternal needle]

So about that -- has nothing happened with that storyline or is that an example of like the consequences of RP choices?

[inland quest]

maybe tikba should write a note on the board about that

[harsh tundra]

It's an example of consequences but unfortunately it was a blanket consequence regardless of affiliation with the actual group.

So if you just have something that has 'thorn' in the description you can't get into places in the Landing.

[inland quest]

mmm, when the thorns ban happened I thought it was extremely awesome and a great example of RP consequences. I would love to get banned from places for obviously being a Marluvian. I think I would also agree that I would like to know what the long-term plan is for this though

[stark ginkgo]

That storyline and I'm going to make this as factual as possible to avoid any accusations of interpretation. Boiled down to one merchant getting the other merchants to go along in the name of peace. That merchant who did this thing then sold a warship to somebody who burned a good portion of the town and killed a bunch of the citizens.... I think his argument for the name of peace was severely weakened somewhere along the way

[inland quest]

there's a Green Death aspect to it where eventually we are going to have to explain to people who weren't around that they can't go into the furrier because there's a thorn on their bracelet, and then they will say why and we will say because of the black thorns and they will say who are the black thorns and we will say some guys up in icemule who throw potlucks and it will be very difficult to explain

[stark ginkgo]

Furthermore, that merchant has serious imperial ties, did not ban the rooks, and took this action as a response to somebody asking for a vote

[inland quest]

it was a beautiful moment though

[hollow frigate]

I think.... when an RP consequence starts to become an inconvenience for people who may not even know what it is a consequence of... it's likely time to reevaluate the application of said consequence.

[inland quest]

I loved it when it happened!

[eternal needle]

Would it be better if the consequences were more character-specific rather than based on attire?

[gilded shale]

That probably is something that could've been done more gracefully than that. "Is that a.. THORN on that rose?! red laser eyes"

[inland quest]

I thought the consequences being attire based was great actually

it displayed really well the limitations of such attempts at restraint lol

[lusty kettle]

Not for all the people who have nothing to do with it or don't want to roleplay, though

[stark ginkgo]

Yeah I liked it when it happened and I think it was implemented well after a day or two of some shenanigans involving an egg

[foggy arrow]

I think it's fair to say that storylines always have a lot of moving pieces and it's usually ONE GM doing all the work. I know it can be frustrating for a thread or plot to be dropped and you're unsure how to deal with it as a player or your character--but I think as players, considering this is a game, we haveto have some grace for the people behind the scenes. It's a lot of keep track of.

Also, I think it's fair to say people forget and a reminder email might be good. 🙂

[inland quest]

people getting caught in the ban who have no idea what's going on is accurate and true to life

[velvet field]

I think the issue is more that a consequence for asking for a vote lasting a year+ without any sort of revisit or resolution feels more punitive than anything related to a story. At least that's my opinion of it.

[inland quest]

that's how such bans work!

[hollow frigate]

Some form of greater specificity, definitely. And I think it's also worth discussing for all things how long they should reasonably last.

[lusty kettle]

I could see this point of view.

[inland quest]

I don't agree with the specificity thing haha

[eternal needle]

Let's abuse Tikba for a moment because she's a good sport.

[lusty kettle]

Okay.

Condoned.

[inland quest]

but I agree that it's been a year, the vote push is over, the mayor who hated the thorns IS NOW THE NORTHERN SENTINEL

and it would make sense for the merchants who instituted the ban to quietly drop it since the problem they wanted to solve is solved

they wanted the thorns out of town and they are out of town

[inland quest]

glance apprehen tik

[stark ginkgo]

The most humorous thing of it all is a certain forest. Gnome could just get around all the guards

[lusty kettle]

It's kind of again though one of those situations where we're forcing consequences/conflict on people who have nothing to do with anything/did not ask to participate, which is something people are now asking us not to do.

[inland quest]

mmm

[lusty kettle]

And that's a reasonable ask.

[inland quest]

my RL views are heterodox on that hahaha

I get the issue

[eternal needle]

If there was a ban on her being a void-loving, world-ending agent of Chaos and she got banned from like Sylvarrend because she tried to sacrifice their goats one midsummer day.

Like if she still serves Marlu a year later and walks around with his shadow demons hanging off her like a fancy boa, shouldn't she still reasonably be banned? She's not changed or showed remorse.

[inland quest]

like I would sacrifice SOMEBODY ELSE'S GOAT

[stark ginkgo]

Yes, and if we had been all of those things I would also agree but the only action taken again was asking for a vote and another faction of the town sold a warship that killed a large number of people by vaporizing them into dust

[inland quest]

this is the solhaven trail barrier thing for me, where there was a lot of complaining because there was RT added to the solhaven trail because of a storyline event (I ADMIT I WAS NOT PLAYING AT THIS TIME AND I ONLY KNOW ABOUT THIS AS A HILARIOUS ANECDOTE)

[west moss]

Leave the poor goats out of this 😨

[inland quest]

I understand that people don't want to be inconvenienced or have their routines disrupted for roleplay they weren't even participating in

my personal inclination is towards the living world even if that means adaptation

but I understand that's not the way everybody views it

[lusty kettle]

Well, roundtime on a trail for a bit because of a storyline is not quite the same to me as a year of "thorn" triggering a ban to a shop.

Something more specific to the people would be better.

[inland quest]

mmm

[hollow frigate]

Yeah. I bring up that anecdote a lot. There needs to be a balance between "not forcing consequences on people that significantly impact their playtime" and "we can't let one iota of change in the world happen"

[eternal needle]

Sure -- but my focus is on like consequences for choices specifically. If you're making a character defining choice, shouldn't that probably stick with your character and help define them?

[inland quest]

I still don't think that makes sense, because part of the point also, from my perspective, was that tikba just took the thorn pin off and walked in

[gilded shale]

Maybe allow people to register their thorn-containing items of note. A license to illthorn, as it were

[inland quest]

the thorns were basically occupy landing at this point, there wasn't a formal organization to target

[hollow frigate]

And you're all being quite engaging right now yet I really need to go make lunch.

[inland quest]

you are kind of persuading me yeah

[stark ginkgo]

There still isn't a formal organization to Target.... There is however a formal organization called the rooks that have the exact same goals and are still walking in and out

[inland quest]

but I guess I feel like we also want to recognize the material reality

[lusty kettle]

Sounds like corruption to me.

[inland quest]

which is that the thorns, in the landing, were more or less crushed by state and merchant power

and so they're gone from the landing now and the storyline has moved on

I still think that was basically good storytelling haha

[eternal needle]

Okay so they don't really I guess "pose a threat"? So why is the ban still in place?

[stark ginkgo]

We're still active in the landing. We're just not at KST maybe you should visit in an hour that isn't between midnight and god awful late

[inland quest]

listen

[stark ginkgo]

Though I will admit a large portion move to IMT

[inland quest]

I have to kill the bugs

that's not my fault

no but seriously it's mostly that I am way busier now

[vagrant oar]

The thorn ban would have been a lot cooler if Naijin had managed to finish the NPC shop pickpocketing system, as the shops would be self-identifying which ones we should target. 👀

[eternal needle]

There's a lot of nuance to that situation which is why I tried to break out and give an example but I guess for those who want/enjoy conflict - are you willing to endure long-term consequences of those actions? Is that something that could be covered in a session zero to add a thread of transparency?

[keen pelican]

It wasn't RT. it was a full on path close that lasted for awhile.

[stark ginkgo]

I don't think I really ever mind the ban. It was actually kind of cool. I just hate logical inconsistencies. Having one group band for asking for a vote. Kind of implies that asking for a vote is the greater evil between selling a warship that murdered a good number of people. It also means asking for a vote is worse than the organization that has a history of committing actual murder to drive off the empire.

[vagrant oar]

I loved and still love the thorn thing, but I seem to be fine with a lot more things than a lot of people throughout this thread.
OOC meetings do terrify me, though. I legit feel uncomfortable walking into those and honestly don't know if I'll be at the upcoming one.

[inland quest]

it doesn't imply that at all I think

it implies that amos doesn't like the thorns, he's the one who put the ban in place!

this "logical inconsistency" argument is just the flip side of the "OOC disagreement on facts" argument, they are both trying to sneak something in through the back door haha

[eternal needle]

Can we pull back from like the very specific thing about like this situation which seems like it would probably be best addressed in the Landing channel?

[vagrant oar]

Are they even the flip side? They're the exact same argument.

[velvet field]

It's part of the overall conflict I believe

[inland quest]

the flip side of the coin!

[keen pelican]

I didn't have a problem with the status coming to a vote, and neither did Perigourd. a lot of the baronies that joined the empire toward the end did so voluntarily asking for admission so it makes sense that at the current phase, it was less about conquest and more about other states wishing to take part IN the empire. Wyrdeep being an example of the empire giving back territory is another indication of the Empire taking the desires of those who live in these spaces into consideration, so for me I'd have been fine with it, and still would be if the Landing ended up non-protectorate. They'll just have to have trade-wars with their Darkstone neighbors.

[tranquil rune]

I mean, in GS is trade wars or axes and swords wars?

[keen pelican]

IC wise, I think the biggest issue I ran into during some of that is that Perigourd will only debate an issue with a character for so long if common ground can't be found.

If he can't see the logic of another position because of his own belief structure or perspective, or if it simply comes down to complete disagreement, after awhile there's a point where he won't waste more time trying to convince someone of his viewpoint through debate. he's too pragmatic for that.

Usually this doesn't happen but there's been a few instances where it has, and I'm alright with that but it does make it hard to engage sometimes with those who seem to wish to be engaged, and this has been on both sides. Perigourd for instance will defend much of Sablo's actions, and there are folk on pro and anti imperial sides that simply don't like that guy.

[stoic raven]

This was always a problem to me. The ban was cool. The coding was wonky though and it messed with some things and not others. But being banned from places was never an issue for me. I was like, sweeeeeet! But what Dendum mentions (the logical inconsistencies) IS a problem..

The funny part is I'm walking around with a thorn-patterned shawl on and it doesnt stop me from entering anything while some folks are still not able to access certain places. A year later it still is kind of broken and doesnt seem to really serve a purpose any longer.

[velvet field]

Right, short term things are fine but if there's not a plan or anything else to it what's the point? Just an odd complication to a mechanical part of the game players have to work around

[nocturne delta]

I did not know about WARN HARASS. That's good info. Thanks!

[gleaming bison]

it probably wasn't even intended to go on for this long (the thorn thing with the merchants), and kenstrom probably just forgot about turning it off, like has anyone actually sent him an e-mail on it? The sanc in TSC has been off sometimes after invasions for months at a time, before someone actually catches it and reports it. People do forget stuff and all, I wouldn't attribute it to malice or intentional at this point for it to of been going on for a year

[tranquil rune]

Yeah, my characters intentionally wearing thorns never get stopped anymore but one of my other guys got stopped the other day because he had been hunting in the bramble patch and had some of the "crystallized black thorns" in his gem pouch.

[stoic raven]

You...you intentionally hunt in the bramble patch? Why would you do this?!? 😁

[inland quest]

the bramble patch is super fun!

not profitable or safe but fun

[stoic raven]

"Fun" right... okay... sure.... ::slowly backs away from Tikba::

[tranquil rune]

It is not as bad as it once was. At one point the tumbleweeds gave you rt even if they missed with their maneuver and so a few of them could totally lock you up. I had clerics locate me and then then think to me "you're on your own"

[inland quest]

scaredy cats, I'll come get you

[olive fern]

I mean, I am starting to think you like getting deeds with how often I see 'Tikba has kicked the bucket', so this tracks. What a hero! 😏

[stark ginkgo]

Woa woa woa...Tikba will turn off death messaging and we will lose our drinking game

[inland quest]

in before "in the manner of the aelotoi" joke

[olive fern]

Oooh I need a copy of the rules please.
Seriously though I just want to go find Tikba and give her a hug, sometimes.

[stark ginkgo]

You should definately do that! All the time!

[inland quest]

tikba is very engaged trying to hunt a hunting area that is way too dangerous for her, that's all

look what you did

[gleaming bison]

need a rescue?

[olive fern]

I'm sorry, I'm so sorry. I just saw it. 🤣