[Official] Treasure Improvement Proposals & Suggestions

[willow plaza]

Yeah, the new ascension hunting grounds are amazing. Not only are they massive, but they're steeped in lore, rich with aesthetic, and sort of feel like their own organic worlds. The HW is by far my favorite place in the game ever designed, and that has absolutely nothing to do with mechanics.

[ashen yew]

Yeah, I would theorize that the loot bonus from over hunting combines with the fact that even if you kill a lot of disir they are still going to be under hunted relative to anything near their level because they are basically the hardest creature

[opal canopy]

Cold River citizenship whennnn? 😭

[unkempt chasm]

Heh, disirs are kinda harmless punching bags to me while angargeists are the real undead threat (and disciples are even worse), but yeah, on sheer level they're "the hardest."

Edit: That's whether solo (on a cleric) or in a group, by the way.

[floral storm]

I've had flaming aura knock me out of hiding with a rank 3 hole in my chest stunned for 5 rounds...

[ashen yew]

I can’t go to the pits yet hahaha so I have to operate on rumor!

I mean technically I could

Feels like a bad idea

[unkempt chasm]

If you can get to even like 720-ish DS in guarded, their spear-lances probably can't touch you as a cleric even if they get a cast or a Flaming Aura proc off.

[willow plaza]

Loot pressure has a noticeable effect, or there would be no reason to have the system. If it doesn't have a noticeable affect, why don't we just chuck it?
Edit to amend: I do think the solution to making loot more interesting is to focus away from silvers, that's hard to do when so much of the framework of the game is built upon using silver as a means progress characters. They are always going to be the baseline means of valuation... of almost everything.

[lethal hull]

Valravn skins were 3.5-6k during DR. They were as low as 700 silver before DR. They are already down to a low of 1.5k. Pressure happens quick enough and remains. Its a miserable experience to know that someone who is on soft or hard cap on loot can reduce other player gains. Really miserable.

[placid vortex]

Keep in mind, some of that is the bonus, not the base line.

[lethal hull]

I realize that for sure. But 700 silver from 5k+ is miserable. Watching loot capped folks open void areas for convenience and you get a topaz and table leg in a box is miserable. Getting solo to the hardest content and having rewards stripped out from under you by someone doing the equivalent of a gacha autobattle is miserable

[willow plaza]

Yep, this. Mitigating the "feels bad" vibe is central to making treasure improvements.

[jaunty gate]

It seems to me, Ptolemy, that the problem isn't that loot capped folks are open voiding anything per se. The problem is they're hunting at all. It's not the fact that they're "touching" your creatures; it's the fact that they're creating kills in the area.

[ashen yew]

give them 10k silver to go to the sanctum and fry there and boost your loot! I genuinely don't get why a loot capped player would hunt in HW

[jaunty gate]

Inertia mostly, I guess.

[unkempt chasm]

I mean, yes, that’s basically been his point. He’s opposed to other people affecting his loot and conversely opposed to himself affecting other people’s loot.

[ashen yew]

FEAR DEATH MORE

[blazing elbow]

Slightly higher chance to find magical items worth more on the secondary market but are not highly valued in the treasure system, thus sidestepping the cap

[bright zenith]

Better bounty rewards

[jaunty gate]

Yeah, I agree with his point. I'm just saying that the symptoms he's experiencing are caused by loot capped people are hunting there at all, not specifically that the loot capped people are open voiding or whatever.

[ashen yew]

unironically I am still unconvinced that the symptoms are caused by loot capped people hunting there because I am unconvinced that the hinterwilds loot is being pushed down by loot pressure

because...it's a very hard area and people don't hunt there as much as they hunt in other capped areas

[flint wharf]

Hello from Moonsedge. Where I might see 5 people all day. On a good day.

[jaunty gate]

Yeah most of us avoid you! 😄

[unkempt chasm]

It's a perception thing. I'm pretty sure Hinterwilds loot is pushed up by loot pressure, but people feel bad anyway because ordinary, everyday Hinterwilds doesn't come anywhere close to peak Hinterwilds (during pay events).

[blazing elbow]

You'll always find more people in areas with less terrible mechanics like itchy curse. Just add itchy curse everywhere

[ashen yew]

to be clear, though, peak Hinterwilds is like that because of loot pressure improving it. there's just more loot pressure improving Hinterwilds during DR!

in fact DR probably has very weird effects on loot because people kill a lot of 110 creatures during DR hahaha

[jaunty gate]

I think an awful lot of what we see if really a perception thing. It's really hard to be objective about things like this. There's a lot of variance, caused by a lot of sources, and we only have a limited understanding of the generative mechanisms behind the curtain. It's ripe for bias.

[unkempt chasm]

Yeah, that's true as well. So people either A) come up with an imagined baseline of what treasure things would or should have in the no loot pressure world and are disappointed compared to that, or B) just fundamentally object on the principle of it.

[lime hatch]

my favorite is getting uncut diamonds from the glacier during events - very weird!

[latent fossil]

you guys know like.. lvl 20-30 hunting areas can pull 75k+ per hunt right?

[unkempt chasm]

As someone who's been frequenting shan lately, I'm very aware of the absurdities of the lower end. 👀

(And that's just the 40s shan, never mind the Vineyard shan, which were absolutely wildly insane last I looked. I'll know again in a couple months.)

[latent fossil]

yeah places people dont hunt are pinatas

[hot quarry]

That's why I recommend grinding OTF evey day, it lowers your expectations and numbs your soul so HW looks like a 10/10 no matter how loot pressured.

[blazing elbow]

https://tenor.com/view/mr-moseby-phil-lewis-suite-life-zack-and-cody-i-rather-not-gif-14702097

[flint wharf]

Treekin were insane too. Mid 80's was glory loot hunting

[unkempt chasm]

Treekin druids right after a pay event ended were how I found my +10 Edged Weapons helmet that began to finally get me into enhancives.

[normal bloom]

Scarabs pay way better I hear

[hot quarry]

Reminiscing about places is fun but there is no way they beat HW unless you got a streamlined skinning operation.

[unkempt chasm]

For someone like me who can stay logged in a while, absolutely yes on scarabs. I literally don't think I could share my numbers here without people either declaring rogues OP, the locksmith pool OP, or being in-game a lot OP.

(Being in-game a lot is OP, by the way. It's why I don't care about exp orbs in the slightest--whether loot or exp, this game is practically all about how long you can be logged on.)

[coarse rampart]

It’s easier to find and kill 10 disir than chase down 28 specific ithzir. The bounties go a LOT faster.

[normal bloom]

I doubt anyone suspects you’re not 100% on anything you do in the game. The rest of us however are not you

[hot quarry]

Insomiastoneiv

[normal bloom]

I can get more loot than my like level triple trained rogue, just normal hunting. It’s why he’s like leveled because I stopped picking nearly as much.

People keep perpetuating the over tipped rogue thing. I’m not seeing it. In fact any time this conversation comes up the tips inevitably go down for a while until people start realizing their boxes aren’t being picked

[hot quarry]

Ahhh i got 35 in the pool, anyone getting em?

[normal bloom]

I’m guessing it’s different at cap but I wouldn’t know

[unkempt chasm]

I'm doing what I can at the locksmith pool, but the exp pool keeps filling. 😂

[hot quarry]

But think of all the bare minimum tips you could be making!

[lethal hull]

Ive hunted the hinterwilds since it was on the test server. From 9m xp to now at 19mxp. It was never as bad loot wise as it was from dec-jan. I documented it consistently and large groups hitting the area was absolutely the cause. You used to find tusks regularly, in both boxes and critter drops. So as you improve, get better and overcome challenges more efficiently, you get to see your rewards diminish. And the response is…dont do the hardest content. What is the point of difficult content if it doesnt yield the best rewards? Why have it? Just because? It makes me not want to log in.

[lime hatch]

I mean it does yield the best baseline rewards because of the +level factor...it's just that there are other factors as well.

And your rewards have not diminished b/c you have "gotten better" as you say - it just coincides with loot pressure changing.

[lethal hull]

Sure. But thats the most backwards trend line in gaming. Grow in power, get better at the game, gain less

Its not a satisfying play loop

[lime hatch]

but that's not the design of the system as you're implying - that's just what happens sometimes due to loot pressure, right? the design is the more you uphunt, the better the loot...with loot pressure as a modifying factor.

[gaunt ridge]

Does the arena impact post-cap loot pressure? Wondering if it's not just the lower amount of HW hunters during DR, but also the overhunting of the arena

[lethal hull]

The system js as people experience it. Level 60 soul golems pay out more than most capped areas. Its silly

[lime hatch]

it is true that people have their own personal experience even if it's the opposite of what the average/nominal experience is. I hear that you want a very vanilla system that always rewards more loot with more difficulty but I'm not sure that's feasible nor ideal for the game as a whole. Not saying I don't want to see improvements myself, but I just find your comments to be through a very jaded lens compared to my experience.

[lethal hull]

I am genuinely glad you enjoy the gemstone treasure system

[lime hatch]

naturally, since I hunt where you and others don't want to hunt, I am seeing the benefits since that's how the system was designed. If the loot where I hunt became crappy I would totally find a new spot but it hasn't happened over 7 years lol

[latent fossil]

You already had an active RPA and have been awarded an opulent pearlescent chest with ornate gold-gilt corners!

Just spitballin guys.

[lethal hull]

If i had to move around the game world rather than hunt with my friends or be in towns they are, id just unsub.

[lime hatch]

ok let's not pretend you have to go to Teras or cross the Spine to find a new hunting spot

[bright zenith]

Shouldn’t a level based system push more rewards towards areas that require more levels?

[blazing elbow]

...what else would the purpose of difficulty be if not to get more XP or more loot? A sense of pride and accomplishment? Genuinely asking

[lethal hull]

Nah. You should def get that +5 vorpal sword at level 1 in DnD

[lime hatch]

fun? I would choose a fun difficult hunting ground over a boring easy place even if it had better loot - assuming the former didn't have crap loot I guess.

[brave turtle]

The problem with loot pressure is there’s only so many capped areas and we have more players capping all the time

[blazing elbow]

You could just increase your own personal difficulty by using subpar equipment though, and reduce your treasure gained by leaving it on the ground?

[lime hatch]

my kind of fun hunting challenge is more about strategy required rather than just sheer numbers

[blazing elbow]

But nothing about scaling rewards changes that calculus

[coarse rampart]

As a reward for hunting an ascension zone with better loot, the reward is a loot cap that disincentivizes playing. It’s not a good system. I wouldn’t mind if they allowed ascension hunting zones a toggle like DR rewards : (1) 1.25exp boost or (2) loot boost, you pick.

[lime hatch]

this is how other games I've played have done it but I don't see any reason it should be an absolute. If a level 1 player gets rich hunting dark vysans or something that no one else is hunting, I don't see any problem with that. They will outlevel the area, stop getting good loot, and be forced to choose a new hunting ground based on all the numerous factors that go into that decision. I think it's more ideal that "the more you uphunt the better the loot" to reliably reward you with better loot if you take more risk.

[ashen yew]

Most people don’t hit the loot cap!

[lethal hull]

Most dont even sniff it

[lime hatch]

I don't understand - I have hunted ascension zones many times and never been loot capped. How are you making that link?

[violet fjord]

That's why I was hoping to find a way to actually quantify the alleged effects over a period of time to understand the actual magnitude at scale. I certainly noticed when I was approaching loot cap and saw my valravn plumes plummet, but outside of that I can't actually reliably measure the totality of the impact on overall loot gains. I don't have my tracking set up reliably enough

And, on top of that, what the expected change due to pressure

[ashen yew]

I mean I think melivn’s loot tour is important precisely because he kills everything in about the same amount of time so we can see roughly the actual loot amounts produced per target, and what we saw is that HW does, actually, have more loot per target than any other zone he tried. Probably most people who go hunting in the HW kill fewer enemies per minute there than in other areas they could go to, in the same way that I make more in the sanctum because I kill a lot more guys per minute there than in the hive

[unkempt chasm]

The Sanctum creatures get nuked so hard by sorcerers that, during Duskruin, I could run in there and overload on boxes in like two minutes.

[ashen yew]

I mean I literally had to get a new bag when I hunted the sanctum haha

[blazing elbow]

That is exactly my experience. In the end GS is a marathon and you just want to churn numbers. Except in something like BDO (the closest game with graphics that has a similar grind) you are fighting 50 things at once, getting upgrades for gear regularly, getting new modes of travel, getting new spell modifiers, getting access to new zones...etc etc etc.

In GS most of those things are locked behind a hefty price. Which, I get it - GS needs money to survive. But when the only 2 rewards on the table besides pride and accomplishment are silvers and XP, messing with either is toxic for the health of the game.

It's not surprising that people running large and/or multiple MA armies like the system as is. You can churn out exponentially more numbers with VASTLY less downtime, which was the only gate the system has designed into it before the loot cap. And with the cap being stuck to a single character, not a single player, it is not solving the issue. It is exacerbating it

[coarse rampart]

You don’t have to hit the cap to see loot adversely affected. At loot cap, hunting without the possibility of loot is a silly system. DR rewards was good - allows players to assign priorities - exp or loot. For those that are getting lower loot or loot capped, allow them to toggle over. Player choices are good.

[lime hatch]

I agree with you mostly (even though I understand the need for a loot cap) - but it remains that hunting in ASC areas has nothing to do with being/getting loot capped.

[blazing elbow]

Creating a finite pool, then limiting how much each character can pull from the pool was a mistake. It should be one or the other

[willow plaza]

Roleplaying. Might seem silly to some folks, but Myharl hunts the Hinterwilds because it fits his story, it's become a major part of who he is. As a player, I just want a system that doesn't feel like I'm punished for not being in the farming crowd chasing loot around Elanith. That's what would make treasure more exciting and engaging for me. I feel like If you want to entice people to other locales, then there should be something unique about the treasure there that draws them, not herd them there by causing determent to other areas in the game.

[blazing elbow]

I agree completely - but the system as designed has 2 tangible rewards.

[lime hatch]

to achieve the same result, if they pick just one of those as you suggest, they will have to make it more restrictive - so take away loot pressure and make your loot awesome all the time until you hit the soft cap at 8m silvers and the hard hap at 17m silvers or whatever - is that really better? it would be for most of the playerbase probably but not for most people here

[willow plaza]

Yep! Exactly. That's why my list of suggestions was pretty much all pushing away from silver, aside from complaints about loot pressure.

[ashen yew]

I will say I also agree that higher level areas and harder areas should give more loot. I just think this is mostly already true. To the degree that it is actually more profitable to hunt lower level stuff, that should be changed. The disagreement is more on how true that actually is and whether the entire loot pressure system should vanish as a result.

[blazing elbow]

Most people aren't going to hit the loot cap without loot pressure, they are just going to get a slightly bigger piece of the pie than they were last week.

[lime hatch]

but it's not more profitable to go hunt soul golems at cap - you have to be in their level range and you will eventually go through that (unless I guess you decide to use ASC as a way to circumvent leveling)

[unkempt chasm]

That's impossible to quantify since we don't know what "without loot pressure" would even look like. Maybe all those OTF and Nelemar hunters would be getting into loot cap.

[coarse rampart]

Understood. To clarify, It’s mostly by association in that I will see loot get throttled in say HW but not in OTF. If anyone is approaching loot cap and disincentivized to play, having options to continue yo enjoy gameplay is good.

[lime hatch]

ironically that's actually benefit of HW - most of the playerbase wishes they could get near the loot cap

[blazing elbow]

Anything is impossible to quantify with no uncertainty without a complete dataset. But when you look at the average XP gained per week/day by people, you can extrapolate with an extremely high level of confidence that most people arent farming for 10-16 hours a day

[ashen yew]

I don’t think it should be economically incentivized to crank up ascension to stay in an area because it is better than capping. It’s okay for me if it’s better than the next hunting ground, but capped loot should probably be the best (and the question is whether it already is).

[unkempt chasm]

Capped loot definitely isn't the best, but Hinterwilds loot is also definitely better than most other capped loot.

[coarse rampart]

And the entire playerbase is welcome to give it a go.

[lime hatch]

yeah I'm surprised the max ASC percentage is not your level oh right it is

[violet fjord]

See, when my pool gets filled up it becomes the motivation I need to get my locksmith out. It doesn’t make me want to tip more 😬

[ashen yew]

Am I being pranked

[unkempt chasm]

It literally is exactly that. Otherwise people would stick around low end areas forever.

[lime hatch]

it was sarcasm not me forgetting! 😛 (edit: I forgot, old)

[brave turtle]

We are going to wake up to a dev announcement that they have “fixed the glitch” of Hinterwilds loot

[unkempt chasm]

I think it's orders of magnitude more likely that Moonsedge is glitched than the Hinterwilds. I see fewer people in Moonsedge and yet it's still way more poor.

[ashen yew]

I think it’s funny that you independently invented the exact ascension limit system that they implemented

[brave turtle]

ME loot is mind bogglingly bad for an ascension area. It’s not much better than Nelemar

[lime hatch]

I have always said the same thing: if you want to get more exp, you hunt all day. If you want to make more silvers: make more alts. I appreciate that some people want the best route to both to be the same but as someone who wants to make a lot of silvers I have warped my gameplay around the game design as is.

[ashen yew]

I have never heard anything about moonsedge other than that the loot is messed up somehow yeah

[lime hatch]

I'm sure you've also heard that flaming aura is OP 🔥

[blazing elbow]

I think the issue is more that you can have both if you just script all day. And this is coming from someone who hasnt manually hunted since 2006

[ashen yew]

I've heard that it's standard

[normal bloom]

Then you’re wasting your time picking and I’m out hunting. See the conundrum

[violet fjord]

I don’t hunt for loot, so it just fills time while absorbing after a bounty. It isn’t meaningfully impacting my overall routine. But I’m also not a bounty chainer to the max, I absorb down past saturated (usually more) before starting a new one. So I don’t entirely agree that it’s a conundrum.

[normal bloom]

It’s about treasure in this thread

[ashen yew]

if you generate fewer than 100 boxes a week you don't have to tip!

[normal bloom]

Should probably just pick for free I guess

[violet fjord]

I mean I still get loot - what I meant was I don’t specifically go out of my way to generate loot on top of what I would get just by completing a bounty.

[flint wharf]

Brilliant.

[lethal hull]

100%. And i stay out of ME because of that

I barely see anyone in it and its always terrible loot, especially for an area thats supposed to get a 10% bonus. Also the bounty rewards are broken. No thanks.

[bright zenith]

Bounty rewards are an unsolvable problem

[lethal hull]

I mean for ME thats a literal bug

[bright zenith]

It’s the same for all ascension hunting that isn’t specifically turned in at the HW turnin spot

[brave turtle]

Yeah it doesn’t sound like a fix is coming for ME or the Hive. Enhanced bounty rewards work in Hinterwilds because it’s on its own AG system basically

[flint wharf]

I heard @ Auchand is going to add a librarian in the castle library to allow us to turn in bounties on a separate system to fix ME.
((nudge nudge, wink wink))

[bright zenith]

I’m pretty sure the expectation is to complete the assigned bounty then travel to HW for the turnin, then travel back to ME/Hive to do the next bounty

[normal bloom]

Everyone should train in lockpicking 😆. According to everyone in here it’s super profitable.

[stiff thistle]

I'm not reading all of this. Did anyone drop the name of the person with 15 characters?

[blazing elbow]

Which one? lol

[brave turtle]

Don’t think anyone name and shamed the Scatter person unless I missed it

[bright zenith]

Just go to the scatter. Can’t miss it

[stiff thistle]

I will assign blame arbitrarily, then (or based on personal animus)

I'm not capped so I don't have these rich person problems

[cobalt jetty]

Just wanted to say, I've observed this as well.

If it's not "looties" as Wyrom suggests, I'm wondering if it's some sort of "contribution bug" where the loot capped character is doing more damage than the non-loot capped character and that is somehow nuking treasure.

Glad we're on the same page on that one!

[lethal hull]

Thats what I was thinking with the void-damaged left over mobs I was getting table legs and clear zircon boxes from in HW

[inner socket]

and it's a NOTICABLE difference. It's not even debatable that "something" has changed, and while correlation does not = causation..I can tell you 100% of the time when this occurs Stormy's hunting partner has hit loot cap. 😂

So I'm like @lethal hull over here trying not to die for a table leg and an amethyst..in the Sanctum. With lurks! And shapers! trying to eat me!

[bright zenith]

The system, as described earlier by Wyrom, is absolutely a version of looties

[cobalt jetty]

This is the way.

[merry pecan]

Scree.

[flint wharf]

All take that as confirmed… 😉

https://tenor.com/view/yes-fist-pump-napoleon-dynamite-gif-11689031

[violet fjord]

Having additional accounts saves you from yourself:

  SMR SvD: +43 + Bonus: +115 + o100 roll: +56 == +214
You make a powerful thrust with your talon-bladed spear at the winged disir's torso!
The winged disir is neatly skewered!
Deafening silence crashes down over you.  A flash of blinding white light erupts from the disir, leaving her afterimage seared into your eyes.
Blinding light explodes from the disir's eyes and mouth as she dies, her blazing wings searing a silhouette onto the ground beneath her.
The licks of blue flame surrounding a shining winged disir flare up one last time before vanishing with a staticky crackle.
A shining winged disir shakes off the effects of the flames.
The burden of condemnation lifts from a shining winged disir.
The heady flush of your spectacular kill makes you feel invigorated!
An indignant snow spirit looks a little bit more wary after that display!
An animated handaxe looks a little bit more wary after that display!
Roundtime: 59 sec.```
Forgot to deposit your warrior's coins after selling bounty gems? No problem, sym return home while he sits in RT! 😬

[ashen yew]

wait

I like that the benefit the extra account is giving you here is "just leave that account to die and leave with your other characters"

I don't need to be playing a character to leave them to die!

in fact in some ways it's easier to leave them to die if somebody else is playing them

[violet fjord]

No no, the symbol of return brought dumbwarrior home

[ashen yew]

ohhh

gma

[violet fjord]

I mean I could have just stayed there and sancted, or 619, or just continued killing things. BUT I USED MY PANIC MACRO LIKE YOU TOLD ME TO!
On the plus side, I did learn that the coup messaging that I had highlighted for my Mortal Kombat "Fatality" sound byte can be gendered.

The other plus side is I can be this encumbered:

You are so weighed down with junk you can barely move.  You might be able to make it to your locker by summoning all your strength and willpower, but surviving much else would not be a good bet.```
And only be a little bit afraid in the pits. #gnomelife

[unkempt chasm]

More like Voln OP!

[violet fjord]

Pretty sure 130 would've done the same thing. I don't think it gets hung up on group members being in RT. Also sorry for perpetuating the off-topicness - no mas!

[unkempt chasm]

Back on topic:

Before this thread, I had looked into the average value of my scarabs, but hadn't bothered to calculate the average extra value they're adding to my locksmith pool boxes based on frequency.

Now I have. Oooooooh boy, does dropping off a box in the locksmith pool need a surcharge added, stat! 🤣

Edit: For the sake of the argument, let's assume that all boxes I have in ;tpick's records would have otherwise gone to an NPC locksmith and that the NPC locksmith would have charged 1500 on average (might even be an underestimate since NPC locksmith fees are usually brutal). Scarabs would then also go to the NPC locksmith, vanishing into the ether. For the boxes I alone have picked, the NPC charges and scarab-taking would have resulted in 3,253,168,328 fewer silvers existing in circulation among players.

Edit 2: Well, wait, to be fair... if they were all going to NPCs, then I wouldn't be creating or repairing lockpicks. Napkin math suggests that that probably wouldn't swing the numbers back in the other direction by more than like 3-4% at most, though.

[dusky goblet]

An animated handaxe looks a little bit more wary after that display!```
pure/semi bugs plz

[lethal hull]

Unrelated really to this discussion...but tangetial to it? I'm telling you, something is wrong with Moonsedge loot.

I just did a full 25 mins in the castle itself. 1 box.

This place is supposed to have the same 10% loot boost HW gets for being ASC loot

[dusky goblet]

it's never had it. we've asked a bunch and the answer was "it's like, so hard to add" i was thinking of ADVGuild rewards, i'm very dumb. It has it allegedly according to estild / auchand:
#1049529762407792761 message

[slow zodiac]

all this loot testing and you went and loot capped yourself!

[smoky depot]

Really? I thought the answer was, "it's there". Let me go find a source, if I can

[dusky goblet]

oh maybe you're right and i'm just thinking of the bounty rewards and crossing wirse hope this is in before other people damn timer

[brave turtle]

I think the 10% loot is allegedly there but the AG rewards aren’t

[smoky depot]

#1057019350856519800 message

The data at the time suggested that it was there, but TTK was much longer, so unless you were Melivn the lawn mower, it felt much lower.

[slow zodiac]

Melivn numbers also reflect a drop according to that post

Copying here for easy reference:

[dusky goblet]

#1049529762407792761 message - a more definitive answer

[smoky depot]

Nice, thank you.

[slow zodiac]

it is working, but even Melivn the Great is seeing a drop of 15% from the easiest HW area

[unkempt chasm]

So, in fairness, 10% is a fairly small multiplier and maybe the loot is just pushed down that much that even 110% of what it would otherwise be is still bad. I find it hard to believe since I've basically never seen anybody in Moonsedge whenever I do go, but maybe they do when I'm not looking. (And it's not as if I look often.)

[lethal hull]

There is literally one pocket healer sitting in the library. No one else walking around. I assume SOMEONE is attached to this healer, but thats all I see

Unlike HW, I can MOW down the stuff in ME without stopping. So my TTK is way faster here. All the same...one box in 25 mins is one box in 25 mins. Seems off

[slow zodiac]

what else did you find? While it's an indicator, number of boxes is not the ideal metric to measure across hunts. Total take is more work to nail down but would be a more useful number to track over time.

[lethal hull]

46k total silver from gems, silver and ancillary crap and 2 skulls

[slow zodiac]

I wonder if the ME creatures share a creature type on the back end that does get pressured elsewhere. Imagine if they're undead pirates or something

[lethal hull]

I dont think so. They all have unique moves. None of them seem like anything else out there

[unkempt chasm]

I don't see how that could be. Almost all of them come across as unique, but even if something like the banshees or dreadsteeds did, it would only affect those.

[smoky depot]

Whenever I step in there, I see people running around the town. Not a lot of folks, but one or two.

[lethal hull]

Even in its worse and most overrun, HW still pays out better than here

[smoky depot]

But I admit that I'm not there very often

[unkempt chasm]

Maybe Moonsedge is just way more hunted than most people (myself included) tend to believe. I mean, it is easier to reach than basically every other capped hunting ground in the game. Literally just walk right in, no complex entry/exit mechanics.

[smoky depot]

Getting IMT bounties is a thing, I guess

But I'm tossing theories. I have a fraction of the experience in there that folks in this thread do

[lethal hull]

I used to spend alot of time here. Its seems to have always been like this. The place is pretty small, especially the castle. vamps and conjurers should be dropping a ton of loot.

[smoky depot]

My own treasure thought is that I'm curious what the virtue of loot pressure is, in a world with loot cap, ;go2, mount travel, etc.

[lethal hull]

I'm assuming the virtue is its easier to leave it than change it

[smoky depot]

I'm sure it is, but I'm also pretty sure that if staff choose to weigh in, they'll say it's still important

[unkempt chasm]

I mean, Wyrom reiterated just yesterday that the system is designed to encourage moving around.

[smoky depot]

It's designed for that, but people don't seem to actually move much. Is it working?

[flint wharf]

I can promise you, it’s not.

My group of 5, and about 4 other solo hunters are the only ones i see consistently, and I’m in there 12 hours a day typically.

I can name on 2 hands, with 90% accuracy, who I’m going to see each day (and most of the time when I’ll see them).

Edit: quick amendment, i do stay past the bridge (i like vamps/conjurers), so i can’t speak with certainty about how populated the town gets for hunting!

[unkempt chasm]

That's the question, isn't it?

I wonder what would happen if they did the opposite of loot pressure and established a flat baseline, but then had periodic area-specific feeder frenzies to get people exploring and trying every ground.

That could maybe work at cap, but pre-cap, not every range has numerous choices of hunting grounds. Just musing aloud at this point.

Edit: Actually, it probably wouldn't even work at cap because then people would just descend upon the flavor of the week (or month or whatever it would be) hunting ground and overcrowd it, making things miserable for everyone.

[lethal hull]

Not me. I learned my lesson last feeder frenzy. The frenzy was the loot we never were going to get along the way anyway

[flint wharf]

What percentage of your silver take in HW comes from skins?

[lethal hull]

20-25%?. That might be high. I depends alot of on whats going on with valravns. If they are getting smashed by the hordes, they can be as low as 700 silver. If they are being left alone, I can get 5k a skin. If I'm in the Pit, I actually get fewer skins because spawn rates in the pit are much slower than Angargreft or Fajaal

[cobalt jetty]

I do feel like treasure should work on a baseline scale.

0-10 = 100
...
90-100 = 1000

This would be a nerf to some low level areas, but low level areas shouldn't have better loot than capped areas IMO. (This is also including the suggestion of 90% reduction in all gem/skin values.)

I also like your idea of a periodic area-specific boost. Maybe area(s)? could randomly be chosen to have a "BOOST LOOT" type affect, but WHICH area is not disclosed. So those willing to seek out and destroy enjoy the benefit if they find it.

One area per 10 levels or something.

[unkempt chasm]

Ooh, yeah, that's a much cleaner solution that avoids the vultures because of no transparency and provides a more clear benefit because BOOST LOOT is superior to feeder frenzies for the vast majority. Maybe there's something to this. 🤔

[smoky depot]

Creating an incentive to cash hunt with a lower level alt has always been a little weird to me.

[ashen yew]

Instead of area loot boosts being random, they should be linked to areas that are unpopular, to encourage hunting in them

[smoky depot]

And they could just be permanent. And places that are heavily hunted could have less...

[hot quarry]

Tried to MA (3-man) the pits to find this magical loot fountain and was left disappointed.... the spawn rates still sucked. It felt like I was starving and I got a slow drip of mobs. No one else was hunting at the time. Mobs died in seconds but spawn timer huge barrier. Gems the only thing that saved me but if you split the totals below per person the rate sucks.
15 minutes 3 man MA pits
total loot 421,000
loose silver 21,000
gems 208,000
other items 25,000
skins 79,000
boxes 88,000

On the flip side I probably could have retained 80%%+ of the loot without my other 2 MA partners (zhagen does all the work) so maybe if I had solo'd it that number would have been 350K per 15 min solo.

[ashen yew]

bring a monk with provoke!

[hot quarry]

My monk in Treekins.... slowly getting there

[unkempt chasm]

Spirit Walk, Fjallarhaart, or Berserker's End/Sanguine Grove are where you want to be for MA Hinterwilds, not the slow Pits. 🤣

Edit: Ojandhaart and Eldurhaart also work, but you'd better have someone with maxed skinning ability to make them worthwhile.

[cobalt jetty]

I like random because it's harder to game, but I also feel like unpopular areas should be addressed. Why are they unpopular? Maybe they could have some other type of incentive beyond flat silver increase via whatever new drops wyrom suggested, alter fodder, etc

[lethal hull]

So...numbers I worked out this morning over coffee.
Average run of DR costs $0.74
The gain is 310 bs.

If bs equals silver at a 1K:1M rate then Zhagen needs to take his 3 accounts, all capped and able to survive the highest level hunting in the game, on 2.375 15min hunts in order to get to 1mil earned silver.

That means, converted to the cost of bs via simustore cash entry, Zhagen and his 3 accounts are working for $4.01 an hour worth of silver.

Running my own numbers as a solo hunter in those same pits, at the highest returns i've ever gotten (not the average returns), I'm working for $1.89 an hour.

[brave turtle]

If you love what you do, you'll never work a day in your life!

[lethal hull]

Thank god I teach instead of playing video games online for a living 😄

So the median silver month (MSM), even if I double Wyrom's previous figures and allow for it to rise to 2m silver, means the average player is earning about $4.77 worth of silver a month using bs simucoin costs as a standard. Using Wyrom's stated number of 1.1m silver (and dropping, by his last update), we are looking at folks earning about $2.38 worth of silver monthly on the median.

[hot quarry]

I know my worth! Getting elite lootz on the daily.

[red crystal]

This makes us sound like GS employees (or serfs) but I think the relationship is quite a bit different. Nonetheless it’s a good example of how loot in normal play is one game and p2w buying power from the cash flood that is DR is something else entirely. I love Ptolemy maths 😈. Adjustments and balance is needed.

[lethal hull]

Oh..you love em?

Well. If you want to fund a purchase of a Bane addition at Hess fully through hunting? Thats 951 Zhagen Pit Hunts, generating a total of 400m or so silver across 3 characters.

That’s 2.6 years if you do 4 hunts (1 hour) a day, 7 days a week. No break days. No xmas. No nothing.

I don’t love my maths.

[hot quarry]

That's only 9.9 days worth of MA Pits 24/7 no sleep..... an easy task if only for that dam loot cap! The real villain keeping us down.

[lethal hull]

Oh i didnt consider loot cap. Let me remath. Can you tell im waiting for my mechanic to do my brakes?

[cobalt jetty]

I don't find these calculations useful.

[lethal hull]

I dont know. I think most games with a microtransactions model have in-game ways to earn the p2w elements. I find the comparatives interesting and enlightening for the value of time spent in game

[cobalt jetty]

You do have ways. Find a legendary treasure and it's free.

[lethal hull]

The famously available legendary treasure feeder😆

[cobalt jetty]

I don't think your expectations should be very high if you only commit 15 minutes to the game.

[lethal hull]

The game isnt just hunting. I commit a great deal of time to the game. And i suggested an hour a day, not 15 mins, in those numbers

[cobalt jetty]

The game is just hunting, if you want to talk about the economy and silvers.

Are you moving the goalposts or moving onto a different topic?

[lethal hull]

Im just explaining what you get silver wise for an hour of hunting at the hardest area of the game, if you have 3 accounts running an MA set up

[cobalt jetty]

Yes, you get out of it, what you put into it. The more time you put in, the more reward you get.

[lethal hull]

Absolutely. So if you want to earn, in game, the most expensive offers in HESS, its going to take 2.6 years of daily 1 hour hunts and 3 capped accounts working together out of you

[cobalt jetty]

I'm pretty sure their goal is to get you to spend money, so they can show they're a profitable company and continue to keep things running.

[lethal hull]

I wasnt making any commentary on their goal. This is a thread about the improvements of the treasure system. Understanding the value of your treasure, which is a measure of your time spent in game and the rewards you get, demonstrate the numbers above.

[cobalt jetty]

I don't think "Help me buy things in HESS" should be a goal of the in game economy system.

[lethal hull]

What should be the goal?

[red crystal]

At my current earning rate I can play for about 4 years to buy an OTS Voln unlock to t3…or I can skip all that and just use my CC to pay what I make in an hour or two RL to buy it directly and skip 99% of the game….then I have a thing in a text game that I didn’t have to work for by playing the game and could reasonably never get playing the game…wait…yeah that’s messed up.

[cobalt jetty]

The in-game economy should #1 be sustainable. It should primarily focus on providing enough income to support player to player transactions (profession services), and player to game transactions (herbs).

[lethal hull]

Why?

[cobalt jetty]

Why not?

[lethal hull]

I genuinely dont know? This is your stated goal. Not their stated goal.

[cobalt jetty]

What is their stated goal?

[lethal hull]

I dont think they’ve ever declared a ‘goal’ for getting and using silver.

Im perfectly fine with spending cash on the game. Ive spent plenty. But i do find it to be interesting data what your time in game is valued at.

[cobalt jetty]

Do you think it has anything to do with helping you make HESS purchases or what your $/hour income is

[lethal hull]

Sure. The game sells event claims for silver. They clearly made a calculation for what to sell that for.

So that fact alone means silver is absolutely a path to hess/pay event purchases.

[cobalt jetty]

I think Wyrom is generous and we're lucky we got event entries to try to drain some silvers. He did it specifically because people are whining that silvers have no value and he's a bro.

[lethal hull]

I dont know why he did it. Im not in his head.

[hot quarry]

The HESS isnt for casual players, Wyrom doesnt expect turnip farmer joe to ever fully unlock a mid-high script or HESS item. Its just mathmatically impossible. HESS is and will always be for the whales or the ppl who spend $$$.

[lethal hull]

There are things in hess that are 2.5k bs

[hot quarry]

ok, is your big accomplishment going to be buying 1 napkin to convert an x/day. You sir are whale! You know what I mean..... the true HESS, original HESS>

[lethal hull]

Expectations are fine. As it stands, there is an in game economy of buying and selling silver for pay event currency. It is clearly the case that this happens in large sums.

[hot quarry]

Joe smo spends 2 years farming 1mil per month just to move his helmet to his pinworn for 25k swatch.... epic whales

[lethal hull]

So, noting that it takes X days/years/whatever of hunting to purchase something at any pay event price point is a valid way to analyze loot.

If players cant get much real value out of their earning, I think thats worth noting.

[brave turtle]

If you want things from HESS you buy Simucoins, I don't think being able to get Flare Affinity by hunting creatures is realistic, if they wanted you to be able to do that they'd sell (anything at all of mechanical worth) for silvers

[flint wharf]

I think.... if you want nicer loot and the high end treasure to flow in game differently, then I would recommend brainstorming other alternatives for revenue for SIMU. If there were better ways for them to generate revenue, besides high end gear, then they'd be able to let it flow into the loot system and be rewards.

Right now - gear is a BIG part of their revenue stream

[cobalt jetty]

It's not a valid way to analyze loot and is utterly pointless.

And loot should not be for HESS purchases.

[lethal hull]

So pick anything you like. A mount at RW. Fire flares at EG. All of them have a silver value.

[hot quarry]

I dont think half the population of GS hardly cares about gear, they must not even be hunting much if the median is 1mil. You cannot physically hunt once a day and not hit 1mil.

[brave turtle]

They have a simucoin value that if you are lucky you can achieve by trading silvers with players for event currency. But the intent is to pay Simutronics money for those items. I don't think the economy needs to be set up so that you can get a mount with a modest amount of hunting

[cobalt jetty]

I mean, you can buy a mount for silvers.

You just can't buy the 20x Rot Blink Bane Uberweapon of Zack Galafinakas (OTS at least).

[lethal hull]

You can.

[brave turtle]

... from RW? What am I missing. Tbh I don't care about mounts because go2 exists so I'm perfectly happy to be ignorant and wrong on this one

[rare tiger]

Very basic horse mounts are sold for silver at RW

[cobalt jetty]

You're essentially saying, my loot hunting doesn't let me buy HESS things.

And it shouldn't, because that's not its purpose, nor should it be.

[red crystal]

That sort of statement made some sense 20 years ago. But the game had inflated and the player base has aged and concentrated to the point where that sounds a bit absurd to me. We aren’t a bunch of AOL noobs. This is a few hundred people staying or returning with entirely different experiences and expectations. Effectively no new players are hanging around spending $25-40 a month to live the turnip Joe experience in 2024.

[lethal hull]

So dont use hess. Use cold flare additions. Use any pay event you like.

[brave turtle]

You buy simucoins and run EG games until you can afford the flares. Like... they're not selling this stuff for silvers, because they want you to pay them money. They don't care if you can get the flares by buying ghost tokens or not, that's not their goal

[cobalt jetty]

Stop trying to use any thing they are trying to sell for cash as an upsell.

You're essentially saying, my loot hunting doesn't let me buy <upsell item> things.

And it shouldn't, because that's not its purpose, nor should it be.

[lethal hull]

But unless drastic changes happen, people can and do use silver to buy those things through paying others, or event boxes, for the currency

[hot quarry]

If you have the will, the setup, and the time you should definitely be able to hit soft cap, 15mil, each month. So between now and the next DR I will probably have gained 15m x 6 months x 3 accounts which is 270mil to play with and buy new toys at DR. I am sure much bigger fish than me who MA non-OTF are making my numbers look miniscule though.

[cobalt jetty]

Okay, so be like them

[lethal hull]

We have been told time and again very few players hit soft cap

[hot quarry]

But my point is most commited players with ascension/capped characters can achieve that.

[cobalt jetty]

You have to put in the time, the silvers just don't magically appear in your bank account.

[lethal hull]

Indeed! 2.6 years! 😆

[hot quarry]

Alastir are you hitting soft cap on the average month?

[cobalt jetty]

Yes, at 15 minutes per day. It sounds like you're getting what your time and effort deserves.

[brave turtle]

Very few players buy HESS items too tho

[lethal hull]

An hour a day. With 3 accounts.

[hot quarry]

Also note that a typical account will probably have atleast 1 professional service character so lets say they make 3mil per week, that is another 150m per year to spend at DR

[brave turtle]

If I only had an hour a day to play GS I would 100% unsub, tbh. This game takes so insanely long to progress and get anywhere that, personally, I don't view it as worth playing if I can't commit a lot of time to it. (This is not me saying I want you to unsub. I don't! But this is not a game that works well with minimal playtime imo)

[cobalt jetty]

I guess Zhagen should work harder.

[hot quarry]

So if you do the minimum and hit softcap every month with your 1 single account with servicer should hit 330m in silvers..... (180m farm, 150m services)

[hot quarry]

I got that OTF grindset boy, come at me.... I'm the dude propping up everyone else's loot pressure. Kobe with the assist!

But yah if your not making softcap then its not worth it to worry about HESS if you are making 1-3m per month.... at that point open up the wallet and pay 2 have fun.
Do Fiverr on the weekends or start a GS OnlyFans🧌

[lethal hull]

Oh, there is no doubt the fastest way to earn silver in GS is to not play the game! 😂

[hot quarry]

https://tenor.com/view/why-not-both-why-not-take-both-gif-11478682 🤫

[gaunt ridge]

So after reading this rather amusing exchange, please tell me what my silvers are for since apparently it's not for big ticket items? Because apparently I shouldn't want anything for my silvers.

[brave turtle]

That's something for staff to answer since it's been decided that big ticket items are only going to be sold for USD

[lime hatch]

I have silvers and use them to buy BS/books and buy whatever I want from HESS.

[lethal hull]

Thats how i thought it worked!

[gaunt ridge]

So I shouldn't ever expect to use my silvers for anything else? Interesting

[brave turtle]

It does work but I don't think it's staff's goal to make that work. That's a side effect. The items are for sale for event currency (USD).

[hot quarry]

Our convo was narrowly focused on HESS. Member's only. Akenna you can spend your silvers to go to Shenenigans and watch Hoy win another SK.....

[lethal hull]

Oh, i was just using a $1000 purchase as a bench mark. We can use anything. Doesnt have to be hess

[lime hatch]

it's a side effect, ok, but it's still real

[gaunt ridge]

Yeah, lol I will pass. 😂

[red crystal]

GS is actually very casual time friendly in many ways compared to forced time commitments and locked long boss battles in other MMos. Be in a raid guild elsewhere when you have to actually schedule 3 hours a night 3 nights a week with 52 other people to get anything decent done and GS seems like a tubi time show.

[lime hatch]

I use my silvers to buy player services, participate in auctions, buy items from other players, and buy event currency/books to participate in those. I think silvers are fine now that there aren't 100+ billion of them out there. More improvement coming though.

[lethal hull]

This was my impression of silver as well. Useable for anything. Directly or indirectly

[jaunty gate]

If you're not using silvers for the things Tsalin said, then I don't know what you're doing. Silvers can be used, at least in part, for big ticket items, via event books.

[lime hatch]

I wasn't trying all that hard and I converted silvers to 300k BS this run. It probably would have been hard if I wanted 1 million BS but how many people actually want to spend like that and don't mind spending cash anyways?

[brave turtle]

It won't be a popular sentiment but if you're hunting an hour a day why is there an expectation of being able to afford top end items?

[lime hatch]

I agree with this except that I don't think hunting itself is all that important for earning silvers but I get your point: if you don't put in much effort, you probably shouldn't expect big ticket items.

[brave turtle]

Every game has casuals and there's no official ruling on what that is in GS but to me, an hour a day is pretty casual... you can get an OTS animal weapon by buying BS, as a casual, without too much drama. But why would you think you could afford a transmute to starsong for that degree of input?

[gaunt ridge]

So this is what I should use my silvers for then? I wish I had the time everyone else has to hunt all day. I have things like bills to pay and a job to keep. I don't net a lot of silvers. I don't script hunt, because I don't feel like that's a good practice and I like to adhere to tos and not afk. So, tell me how do I net like billions of silver?

[red crystal]

The “little people” should just be happy they have shoes and a job. If you deserved more you’d have it. Know your “place”. If you want more pull yourself up by your bootstraps (which means MA grinding or USD). St least that’s what some messages appear to say. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[hot quarry]

If you are hunting ascension you should be able to pull off softcap and therefore be able to afford a decent amount of luxury at DR. (even at only 1 hour per day)

I feel like no one agrees with me.... @ Alastir, do they not know about the secret hunting spot?

[brave turtle]

Zhagen I agree with you more or less but you gotta carve ME out because the loot there is Nelemar tier for some reason. I really enjoy Moonsedge but I won't hunt there because I'd be self-nerfing my loot vs hunting Hinterwilds (which I also enjoy, don't get me wrong).

[jaunty gate]

This isn't the same question. Your original question was "I have all these silvers, what do I do with them?" Now you're saying "how am I supposed to get enough silvers to do something with?" And you have two options: you can either play the game more, or you can convert real money to silvers (for example, by buying simustore items and then selling them in game for silvers).

[lime hatch]

from experience: make alts who can sell their services for lots of silvers each week and do the bare minimum to get their Lumnis done each week

[jaunty gate]

You don't need silvers to buy high end stuff. You can do that for event currency, which is basically real money with an extra step. But if your question is "I don't have time to farm silvers silvers and I don't have real money to spend on the game, how do I get top-end stuff?" my answer is "have generous friends."

[lime hatch]

or get lucky in raffles

[brave turtle]

If you work at CVS you probably won't be able to afford a Ferrari, it sucks but that's the reality of capitalism, Simu is a business and their pricing reflects that, it's gonna be tough to buy rot flares if you hunt an hour a day and don't want to spend USD

[gaunt ridge]

So really you are telling me to 1. Spend more time grinding 2. Throw money at it. 3. There is no 3

[lethal hull]

Because its not a f2p game?

[jaunty gate]

I mean yeah, stuff costs currency of some sort, whether that's silvers or event currency. There's no way around that, outside of winning raffles, like Tsalin said.

[hot quarry]

Definitely get an alt or 2 if you can handle that but after a few it becomes an unenjoyable GS secondary job. Don't be the guy with 6 wizard slaves unless you are into that....

[lime hatch]

3 is take your time. Even if you play just 1 character who can make say 3m/week selling their service, that can accumulate to a significant amount over months and years.

[gaunt ridge]

Because I do the other things, I sell services and I use up my gifts

[brave turtle]

Where does it say a sub fee entitles someone to pay event items, lol

[jaunty gate]

The good news is you don't need high end stuff to progress. And there's lots to do in GS aside from grinding toward high-end items. But, like anything, if you want the shiniest stuff, you have to pay. No two ways about it.

[hot quarry]

Pay event is triggering to some, we need to rename it....... community events or goodwill donation drives

[lethal hull]

It doesnt say it does or doesnt? I think the ‘you shouldnt expect high end’ is a red herring.

If you want something that costs 15k bs, you need to spend $35.80 or you can earn 15ish million silver and give that to someone else for the bs. It would take 3 accounts, in the pit, tuned to quick kills and silver acquisition about 37 hunts.

Im not sure why that math bothers people. Its just the math

[gaunt ridge]

I know this sounds crazy. I don't really have a lot of high-end stuff, I got two characters to cap without it. I like the scripty stuff like forehead gems and girl on fire gowns which are pretty much out of my grasp thanks to prices in you guessed it...silvers.

[brave turtle]

Yeah their prices are high, I don't disagree with that at all, it's lines of text, and we're all varying degrees of insane for buying any of that stuff, lol

[lethal hull]

I used a $1000 hess purchase as a standard. You can do the math with absolutely any purchase of any amount at any pay event and figure out how long you need to hunt 3 capped accounts in the hardest area of the game for.

[jaunty gate]

I just don’t understand how you WANT it to be. How do you think it should work?

[hot quarry]

$1000 sounds nasty but the 1 prem-2subs setup would cost you like $850ish alone. Screwed over right out the gate!

[lethal hull]

Oh i know! I left out the sub costs🤣

[gaunt ridge]

I don't know, I guess I want my silvers to mean something. I want the time I spend hunting to mean something. So that on occasion I can roleplay in this roleplaying MUD 😂

[hot quarry]

I been back for 4 years at that rate...... (hides bank account statements from self)

[lethal hull]

If i stop being goofy, i think most people think alot of the prices are nuts. Silver is a way to offset some of the cash expense in most peoples minds. So if the prices arent coming down ($1000 rolton bane) or if silver gen isnt going up…the math is the math

[jaunty gate]

The silvers that you earn DO mean something. You just don’t earn enough of them to buy the things you want.

[hot quarry]

Sadly, Akenna you are not worthy to wield the immense power of the 4x acid flaring claid.....

[lethal hull]

Maybe she got there before they pulled it!! I saw 3 of them in one group the other day

[gaunt ridge]

Just my luck.

[red crystal]

While that’s true in Tulsa …a fantasy MMO is sustained by the illusion that everyone can become the hero. Making it the unregulated capitalist mirror of the current RL global economy and having 1/4 the population live in Monte Carlo while the other 3/4 sits in Tupelo Mississippi may be ca warped mirror of RL but it’s a poor model for a fantasy world game trying to sustain a decent player base. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[brave turtle]

Simu is owned by a publicly traded company and they have to make money. That trumps the fantasy MMO environment. It is what it is

[lethal hull]

Im not sure how long $1000 rolton bane is a sustainable model.

[flint wharf]

back in my day.... we were happy with a 6x flaring scimitar, that wasn't even blessable.... Kids these days have it too good I tell ya.

[lethal hull]

I couldnt have flares!!! Or 7x! Couldnt bless em!

[hot quarry]

In most online games the whales drive most of the revenue, and what do whales want to do? Show off their gear to the casuals and in pvp crush those same casuals.... that is modern online/mobile gaming in a nutshell.
Its a ruse to get whales to spend. Atleast that is an argument I have seen and somewhat agree.

[jaunty gate]

There are a tremendous amount of items, both mechanical and fluffy, available for a reasonable price that can turn your character into whatever you want to role play. You just can’t have the absolute rarest or most expensive things. Thems the breaks.

[red crystal]

The best part of this thread is everyone has said something I disagree with and something I do agree with. 😬

[gaunt ridge]

Cool, and I do spend cash on this game. I have two premium accounts. I spent at least 100 to 200 dollars on pay events (not this dr, I spent like 50.00) and so it isn't like I don't spend money. But also I don't treat gemstone like a second job. I sell cobbling services, sanct services, enchanting services. I am not rolling in billions though.

[lethal hull]

I always wanted to be scourge of all roltons…just could find that spare $1000 bucks 😆

[hot quarry]

Anyway, what were we actually arguing about? Whether HESS is realistically obtainable or not?

[lethal hull]

I didnt argue! I just had my calculator handy

[flint wharf]

it all just started with the lousy loot in Moonsedge... fix Moonsedge and everyone's problems are solved 😬

[jaunty gate]

I honestly don’t know.

[lethal hull]

Oh i gotta open that box i found yesterday! 25 mins of earnings lets goooo

[brave turtle]

I think we all agree prices are too high but it's a hard sell for Simu to go "hey Stillfront we're going to start making less money, because players want to be able to afford more stuff" like I just don't see any of this changing meaningfully

[lethal hull]

When you run out of customers willing to pay the current prices, you make less money too. I spent $1000+ two years ago on pay events. I spent $10 this dr

[cobalt jetty]

Very few are rolling in billions.

[red crystal]

Lots of companies exist. If they do so long term or in a way that provides fair value is what’s at question. Underlying this is a simple question. Does GS currently provide a consumer good at a reasonable cost that will be sustained by the market. If it does great. If it doesn’t then everyone who dropped $10k in the last 5 years for text toys or who was grinding MA armies for elite status will be sad when it all goes away. I’d like it to be around with at least close to the same number of players (not accounts) in 5 years. Whatever gets us there and keeps a community will probably work for me…or the constant highly promoted cash grabs for highly promoted things will burn us out and it won’t 🤷🏻‍♂️.

[cobalt jetty]

They've also said the amount of people hitting loot cap is low.

[blazing elbow]

That's because most people dont. There are like 3 dozen people on discord regularly

[hot quarry]

Dam lazy adventurers won't even spend 8 hrs per day grinding $4/hour in silvers! Despicable....

[cobalt jetty]

You could go get a real job and spend it at hess and come out further ahead

[hot quarry]

You hiring?

[lethal hull]

My hess ambitions! Spoiled by a lack of a real job! Foiled again!

[cobalt jetty]

No

[hot quarry]

I am lvl 100 wizard, I have very good hand eye coordination within my 12 macros, I am also quirky and my biggest weakness is that I am a perfectionist!
Can I send you my GS resume?

[cobalt jetty]

Just keep working on your influencer status. Maybe jaysehn can start a fansonly

[lethal hull]

I need more ai art. Nsfw stuff. Hat only material

[red crystal]

Fix my hat! 😜

[lethal hull]

OnlyHats. Subscribe for more. Next week, we start the jungle room stream meta

[hot quarry]

I wonder how much Dreaven was making a month at peak Patreon before Invoker. He was/is unironically a paid GS influencer....

[flint wharf]

I'm hoping something exciting pops up for RW... at the moment, I'm not sure I have any spend planned.

[brave turtle]

Yeah barring any hot new stuff I'm good on RW

[flint wharf]

I'm hoping we get to see how Lumnis is incorporated... that could spur a little for me. But this is probably veering off topic and belongs in the event thread.

[jaunty gate]

I had planned to do some weight reduction stuff at RW, but when there were no pocket merchants at EG those plans got cancelled 😦

[inner socket]

I've moved to hunting ME with Blades.

Vamps and conjurers do NOT drop a lot of loot.

I'm seeing significantly less overall intake than a similar hunt with bounty in SoS.

[ashen yew]

I think my hot take here is that 4 bucks an hour for silver grinding is not out of line with the numbers I have seen in other MMOs for grinding the soft currency in order to convert it to the hard currency. The pathway to free hard currency needs to exist for players to feel possibility but it is typically not pleasant.

[ashen yew]

Also I want to say that being the hero (or the villain) in gemstone is really not defined by whether you can afford HESS certificates.

[jaunty gate]

Totally agree. You need to be able to afford wheelbarrow stuff to reach true hero status.

[lethal hull]

Well...to be clear. Thats $4 an hour, for a 3 account MA set up run against the hardest hunting in the game. So....$4/hour divided by 3

[hot quarry]

new character attuned currency.... REIM bux for all

[ashen yew]

well you're assuming zhagen's 3 man operation was optimal. I think he admitted that some of his employees are slackers and need to be pruned

[lethal hull]

I could use my own results running solo...but that was $1.89 an hour

[hot quarry]

lazy bard all they do is spam 1 button...
Any issue, 1030
Cleric though is fire in Pits with 180 religion and triple holy fire

But I do think a max provoke would have made it much better

[lethal hull]

oh man, I got that Moonsedge chest back from yesterday. 25 mins to get this baby...

Roundtime: 1 sec.
R>
Abide just arrived.
R>
[poolparty]>look in #1065156583
>
In the tanik chest:
Food/Drink [1]: an iced blueberry muffin
Misc [1]: a blue cotton swathe
Total items: 2```

#winning

[ashen yew]

hey you got a rainbowwear collectible

[hot quarry]

You can't put a price on collectibles! After you get 10,000 more of those you get 1 exp absorb that money cant buy.

[lethal hull]

the dream achieved

[smoky depot]

I bet that muffin is so good

[lethal hull]

I know the secret lore. You feed that to owls for +10 faction rep.

[brave turtle]

I do sincerely think something's wrong with Moonsedge loot. It's never made sense for it to be as materially worse than Hinterwilds as it is. Atoll loot is better than Moonsedge

[lethal hull]

I 100% agree. I found another box this morning that had 2k silver and a piece of mica (10 silver).

+--------+--------
| silver | 15,095```
Total take from 4 Moonsedge boxes. LOL. Brought to you by a blue lace agate (149 silver), a green jade (736 silver), a piece of mica (10 silver) and a blue cotton swath (priceless). Oh wait...edit: add 47 silver to that for some platinum dust

[hot quarry]

There must be a manual line of code in the loot pressure system...... case when account = Ptolemy then value*0.01 else value end as loot_output

[manic fossil]

isn't that mostly because moonsedge has a lot more people hunting there?i remember the loot being pretty amazing in the beginning

[ashen yew]

honestly even if half the game were in moonsedge it still feels poorer than it ought to be

[lethal hull]

I rarely see people in there.

There is supposed to be a 10% loot bonus to asc areas (separate from the bounty thing). Im flat out assuming thats just not functioning there as a starter

[hot quarry]

coded to 0.10 loot instead of 1.10 maybe

[flint wharf]

For reference on the population hunting Moonsedge... I just checked my empath's log.

Since 6:25am CST, there have been exactly 3 people not part of my small group that have gone through the library in ME today.

[dusky goblet]

people go into the library?

[jaunty gate]

I go into the library while I'm waiting for 1708 or confusion to drop.

[dusky goblet]

i just go into my anteater defense mode in front of the mobs while i wait.

[lethal hull]

I used to tent out on the bridge when monsters couldnt go there. But yeah, library is the only room to shake creeping dread in

I mean someone in ME has a script running to hit the organ every time its off CD. So someone is in there. Maybe they found a way past the one puzzle door and they found the secret vault

[dusky goblet]

they didn't. also there are multiple people who playt he organ on cd.

[lethal hull]

I am grateful for the buff givers of ME!

[jaunty gate]

I do it pretty much on CD when I'm there. I know Brute does too. But I'm living the Hive lifestyle for now 😎

[unkempt chasm]

I just read through hundreds of messages about presumed regular silver income over a given time period and nobody mentioned that the numbers get driven up by selling profession services. Unless, of course you’re a rogue, paladin, or empath, but that’ll be fixed.

And as for what silvers are supposed to buy you if not HESS items, the answer is event boxes for non-HESS items, direct currency exchange for any other pay event, player services, ships, raffle entries, RoL silver shops, basic RW mounts, items in playershops, locksmith pool tips if you’re not working the pool, lockpicks and repair if you are working the pool, potions/packs/whatever else your profession service consumes, herbs, and probably things I can’t even rattle off from the top of my head.

[placid vortex]

Keep in mind, silver wealth (by numbers I've shared) is very lopsided because a lot of people don't put any effort into it. I won't be lowering the bar here because people just want to be at the same level of someone who plays 5+ hours hunting vs the person who sits at the average login time of 100 minutes and doesn't hunt beyond getting fried and resting. People all play this game for different reasons. If silvers are important to you, it's pretty easy to get started there. You might need to get better at it. And I'm not saying go from zero to hero by strip mining an area with 10 accounts. But you can make silver in this game with very little effort with Lich supporting your pawning and such.

And when we talk about silver for loot cap, it's generated silver, not player services.

[unkempt chasm]

Yeah, clarifying… what I’m saying is people talk about their average silver intake from their own hunting, but it’s an oversimplification of their available resources because, as long as they have and sell a profession service, they can also leverage other people’s hunting to take a cut of it.

[hot quarry]

Its pretty clear if you hit softcap every month and can sell services at 3m per week that is 330m per year. Thats alot of event boxes.

[placid vortex]

There is a whole lot more to buy these days than yesteryear. The windfall strategy is a bit gone for the most part. Like Anfelt only offering 20 or so raffle items of the new enhancive system being a little more obtainable or a single ethereal string being offered at a raffle. Availability is there. And the market seems to continue to sell things for silvers. Some items have grown in value making it easier to trade. I would say your silvers are worth quite a bit more as you now have way more purchasing power at pay events with them. Yes, Simu is involved more because the business moved in that direction, but we have kept the silver market in mind the entire time. I just can't protect the valuation of silver to USD.

[lethal hull]

We are told very few people are hitting loot cap. Are the ones who fail to simply bad at gemstone? If its easy, why are so few people doing it?

[placid vortex]

They aren't putting silvers first.

Take that as good, bad, or whatever.

[brave turtle]

There's a difference between 1m a month (average, likely not prioritizing silver) and soft cap (16m, definitely either prioritizing silver or just hunting a lot)

[lethal hull]

Worth noting the only rewards the game even supports at the moment are xp and silver.

So if they are doing anything else, they are not getting rewarded for it. So if the response is, get some more accounts, put on bigshot, automate as much of the game as you can and dont get caught looking away, then I guess thats the answer.

[hot quarry]

So it might be harder now adays but if you have alt services slaves you can get multiple 3m per week income sources so lets say my 1 account sells 4m per week enchant, 2m per acct ranger, and 3m acct luck... that adds up quick. And thats only 1 account with the extra character slots being cheap. The startup cost is the hard part and the extra time.

But then it becomes a pseudo job which sucks....

Premie account with 16 slots and 15 wizard alts..... thats 45m per week haha (this is a joke but not really.... ppl do this to a degree)

[unkempt chasm]

I mean, I'm pretty sure there's a good reason that profession services are suddenly being heavily prioritized. It's a huge equalizing force in how people acquire (not generate) silvers. Nothing is going to beat the super grinders, of course, but the same is true with exp. We occasionally talk about the idea of "Lumnis for loot," but profession services basically are that--it's just that they don't generate new silver, but take it from others.

[hot quarry]

Wizards got it good, Rogues probably make 100m+ from scarabs..... but the paladins and empaths....

[brave turtle]

I am making DUMMY money off my tattoo ink let me tell you

(lol)

[red crystal]

Defined? No. Shaped or enhanced by? Often.

[lethal hull]

The reality is the person running around the Rift with 14 characters making the game unplayable for others is the one doing it ‘right’.

[hot quarry]

Seems like MA has a diminishing return, its much better to be a Melivn solo ripping HW than 14 characters, The per character probably isnt as good as you think.

[placid vortex]

I don't want to pick your comment apart here, but it's an argument you're very strong-minded about. In my comment, I specifically callout that you don't need multiple accounts. Obviously someone who has more accounts and wants to make as much silver wealth as they can are going to trump any single account. We also removed looties which did solve this problem of mo' accounts, mo' silver (problems), but it was very hated on for obvious reasons. Still need to find out why some people are reporting it though, another topic though.

The game rewards stuff at least 4 times a year for silver via the secondary market, silver can get you that stuff as long as the secondary market exists. If that died off entirely, then we'd need to adjust things. But this CLAIM EVENT suggests silvers have quite a reward still. So the game rewards xp, silver, and misc stuff from hunting. But then you can transfer that to the other rewards. It's a few steps, and other games do this too. There are more rare drops in other games, and we are looking at ways to adjust that in GS. I'm sure we'll have challenges there because the game wasn't designed in this way. If we make something a 1 in 25,000 drop, it's going to be picked apart, but the idea is to keep the game interesting by doing what's available over and over again.

And for a lot of people, this isn't prioritized. They RP or they get by with minimal stuff. But the people who want it, usually go after it. And then we shadow nerf it to 1 in 50,000 (I'm kidding).

[brave turtle]

There is a middle ground between hunting an hour a day and running a 13 person team in the scatter for 14 hours a day but I realize you were using hyperbole

[lethal hull]

Yup. The point is…if you are playing the game with the tools the game gives you, you are simply hurting yourself. The more you divert towards an automated model, the more you turn the game from RPG to gacha autobattler, the better your in game outcomes.

[latent fossil]

Gacha autobattlers have never given me a better roleplaying experience, my ultimate prize!

[ashen yew]

it's a personal choice. Gemstone is a roleplaying game. mechanical benefits are nice and all but I don't think they impinge much on the way I understand characters. you generally can't even see the mechanical benefits you can buy at HESS! why would they matter to somebody's roleplay choices?

it might matter to how you experience your character, for sure

[flint wharf]

I'd also note that the person MA'ing 14 characters non stop for loot has a different goal for the game, than the person play 1 or 2 characters.
Ptolemy - the fact that you're saying they're "doing it right" means your saying maximizing loot and resources is "doing it right".
If that's your aim, then yes, you probably need to MA to be in top tier loot production.
I genuinely don't think that's your aim, but It does come across that there's envy towards those that are doing this and get all the fun toys.

Setting aside the disruption caused to the area by so many accounts creating mobs that crash clients, that seems to be a slightly different tangent within this conversation.

The beauty of this game, is that there's no "right" way to do it. There's just the way you want to play the game.
Edit: I do think there are "wrong" ways to do it, and those ways disrupt the game for everyone else. I know that line can get blurry.

[lethal hull]

Actually, even if you wanted to maximize your RP with more RP tools, those are bought the same way. Ill be honest, I dont have any gear desires or needs. But something even like speaking a different language in game is gated behind a 150k bs auction

[hot quarry]

There is a wrong way, you hunt OTF 8 hours per day.... that is hands down the worst way to play GS.

[ashen yew]

I mean most RP tools are extremely cheap. Languages are certainly an exception haha

[lethal hull]

I cant argue with you there.

[flint wharf]

I do feel like MOST non mechanical, RP driven things are typically pretty affordable at events. I was just flipping through RW and there are about 100x more things priced UNDER 1k BS than over 1k BS.
Occasionally, yes, some things seem to be gated abnormally high and make me scratch my head.

[lethal hull]

There is no inherent reason why a deck the halls is less than an ice flare on a sword. Or why a rolton bane is $1000. Its the staff pricing it so.

[ashen yew]

sure

I mean I don't think anybody would argue otherwise

[hot quarry]

https://tenor.com/view/south-park-margarita-ville-stock-market-wheel-headless-gif-17896977

[flint wharf]

Maybe The Rolton King storyline hasn't made it's debut.... would be a shame for it to get wrecked with Rolton Bane weapons running around everywhere 😉

[lethal hull]

Sidenote. If rare drops are put in at a 1:25000 rate…its not going to help 🙂

[wheat cypress]

Still trying to figure out why two T2 easels were auctioned off for ridiculous prices... It's an easel...you can make custom paintings on a T2 easel. Why is this upgrade just not available with a certificate upgrade like the T1? Why is it rare? There are some things in this game that just dont make any sense at all. 😂

[gaunt ridge]

looks like I just need to automate and let it run while I work, lol, because even though I try on the silvers front, I guess I don't put it first. Tell that to all the shoes I make, but whatever.

[flint wharf]

If you could make shoes with +2 to 3 agility bonus.... you'd be in business! Maybe that's a decent evolution for artisan skills.... small bonuses to the things they make. A little merging of RP and Mechanics
Master fletching used to give a bonus, does it still?

[bright zenith]

Is it fair to say the person running 14 accounts starts each month at a (14-1)x$15 deficit compared to the solos?

Like, as a solo, are you investing that deficit into boosting your silver?

[gaunt ridge]

I have asked repeatedly to be able to make UAC gear, but alas...nothing.

[placid vortex]

Digging was 1:25000 and we emptied out 400 items in 2 weeks. Average person kills dozens a hunt, hundred of people hunting. If we're talking rare, it will likely be even deeper.

[red crystal]

Hey I’m just part of the peanut gallery here. My most prized item is a whiskey keg. But I can still see some issues with how the current system is or isn’t working in a sustainable way. 🤷🏻‍♂️. I’m safely so far from a loot cap it’s hilarious. But I still get .2

[hot quarry]

Move over lootcap, critter kill cap...

[placid vortex]

Frumpy clothing is a 1:10000, how many of those do you find?

[lethal hull]

Im curious how many of those went to a tiny sliver of players. Once again, 14 accts etc

[lethal hull]

I genuinely hope that person gets maximum value out of their spend and just ask they not disrupt other and ask the game not program things that force them to disrupt others

[hot quarry]

That's where the scaling shines, we joke about $4/hr but multiple that by 14..... you got a JOB!

https://tenor.com/view/matrix-the-gif-24707533

[lethal hull]

I honestly dont know the answer to the frumpy clothing. Is that any clothing item? Or only the unsellable ones?

[flint wharf]

Alert: 4th unique person today spotted in Moonsedge. Loot pressure is in full effect.

[wheat cypress]

Hey you wanna know something really really really rare that happened to me the other day? Like i bet the odds are crazy... another actual person TALKED to me on Teras.

[red crystal]

Far more than the economy I’m concerned about where Tikba’s picture is from because it looks familiar but I can’t place it and it’s making me crazy!

[lethal hull]

Thats my mica! Hands off

[wheat cypress]

Ptolemy i need you to calculate the insane odds I had with another person speaking to me on Teras a few days ago....

[lethal hull]

I just had my ‘ up when i typed ‘depart confirm’. Sorry about that.

[ashen yew]

A friend of mine made it for me for visualizing my character haha

[red crystal]

Thats mind blowing! Maybe it reminds me of some character from an old Akira Kurosawa film 🙃

[dusky goblet]

tired: it wasn't their friend it was midjourney
wired: tikba is an AI and their friend IS midjourney

[unkempt chasm]

This is an interesting question. 13*$15 = $195, which is worth 263.25 Duskruin entries (assuming purchasing at the $100 tier, not the $1000 tier) and therefore worth 78,975 bloodscrip. So, on a 1k:1m valuation, they're behind until they've acquired 78,975,000 from the extra accounts, but ahead afterward.

[brave turtle]

If they soft-cap all 13 accounts they're at 208m, I think they do fine

[red crystal]

I feel like I’m living Ex Machina now!

[bright zenith]

Close to a billion silver/year if you just skip the MA and snag the silver from.. elsewhere..

[dusky goblet]

https://deadline.com/2024/03/a24-imax-screening-series-alex-garland-ex-machina-civil-war-1235857362/ - coming to IMax for a limited time.

[red crystal]

And if you have a single premium account and want to buy a single fox pet using USD simucoins that’ll cost you about $1400 (check my math). Which would be how long for the 14 MA crew to earn? This is a random question

[gaunt ridge]

Well, with the Approval of a GM, I guess I should just stop hunting without scripts, completely automate. So I appreciate the feedback guys.

This whole discussion has been eye-opening.

[lethal hull]

They game is undeniably priced towards MA hyper efficient hunting. Even purely silver offerings like ships

[gaunt ridge]

I mean, that's what I am hearing. I want to make silvers? I have to automate. So, seriously, that's what I'm going to do. Thanks.

[lethal hull]

Its one thing if people have buckets of silver…its another to NEED buckets of silver. Even a carrack is a 65m purchase.

[ashen yew]

I genuinely feel like the pay event price question is a red herring for this thread because the reality is if you could make twice as much silver per hour then bloodscrip would be 2m for 1k. Exchange rates aren’t fixed

[bright zenith]

Dangerous topic

[unkempt chasm]

500k raikhen is about $1190 assuming $1000 buy-ins.

Answering the question requires parameters of the profession composition and how much monthly loot they get.

I'll assume they make 2m per week on average from profession services. This could be a wild overestimate if they use their services on their own characters or a wild underestimate if they're all clerics or even wizards/sorcerers, so I'm trying to go for a middling number. Let's then say that each character loots 8m per month. (I think this number is a bit high because two reasons to have such a large MA group in the first place are 1) to rotate looters to avoid broaching the loot cap and 2) so you can make more silver with less time in game (mostly via profession services), but for the sake of the argument, let's say they're online a ton to hunt a ton anyway.)

They therefore get 112m from hunting per month and 120m from profession services per month, so it takes ~2.16 months to buy a fox pet if they can convert 500m silver into 500k raikhen.

This, of course, is why Ptolemy is contending that someone MAing the Scatter is doing it "right." Kontii likewise pointed out that that's only accurate if someone's primary goal is pay event purchases. And then there's the factor Tikba mentioned while I was typing this, since there have been times during which silver was either far above or far below the current 1m:1k valuation.

[red crystal]

Thanks!

[ashen yew]

People bring their own danger to this question!

A year ago people were doing 750k to 1k. We were mostly all there!

[hot quarry]

just sold some alt juice, another 15mil in my pocket!

[brave turtle]

the rich get richer

[lethal hull]

The irony is that by doing it ‘right’ you shove down loot for anyone else in that zone, thus increasing the difference in earnings more thanks to pressure. So you are doing it right and then the ones doing it wrong are even more wrong

[red crystal]

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-beggar-gif-19761345

[unkempt chasm]

They also shove down the loot for themselves, though, unless they rotate hunting grounds. And if they do rotate hunting grounds, then they push the loot back up in whatever they just left.

[flint wharf]

100% agree here. It really kind of stinks that any one player could negatively impact the experience of another player like this.
Loot pressure's gottttttta goooo.

[ashen yew]

This goes again to the fact that mister fourteen accounts wasn’t brought up in the context of loot pressure, he was brought up in the context of swarms. Loot pressure isn’t relevant to that

Really he is generating a ton of wealth for everybody who doesn’t hunt the scatter!

[unkempt chasm]

I want loot pressure to go too, but I don't think it serves anyone's argument well to ignore what Tikba's been saying for days now: it does cut both ways.

[willow plaza]

You know, joking aside and realizing how adamant you are about this not happening, I'm not beyond accepting it may be a bug tangentially related to loot pressure. There are a lot of unique systems in play in ascension areas, who knows what stray variable might be causing some weirdness. But the drop that Ptolemy is referencing does happen, I experience it as well. It could also be related to the weirdness that is ME loot.

[ashen yew]

And let’s be clear

“Anybody who doesn’t hunt the scatter” is basically everybody except three guys

One of those guys admittedly is fourteen guys

[violet fjord]

This wasn’t the message at all. There’s a significant difference in outcome between hunting for experience/bounties and hunting for loot. You can’t maximize one without hurting the other. So Wyrom’s message, as I interpret it, is that if you want to earn silvers there are specific play styles that will do that (with or without automation). This includes, but certainly isn’t limited to: building up skinning skills to maximize, trading ranks, leveraging hunting zone mechanics (I.e. confluence is amazing money and can be constantly hunted because it’s only gems so no encumbrance). I’m sure a dozen other optimizations to leverage that someone more efficient that I can come up with as I certainly don’t fall into the category because it’s not a priority for me. But the options are there

[unkempt chasm]

Well... the Confluence can only be hunted for your first million a day, but sure on the rest of that. Heh.

[bright zenith]

Many people hunt the scatter

[brave turtle]

at least 13!

[violet fjord]

“First million a day” is likely a pipe dream for most of those concerned, but your point is of course 100% correct - and a good callout on a specific facet of the overall optimization requirements.

[hot quarry]

I should try confluence more, its just so confusing with the entrances and exits

[dusky goblet]

;go2 confluence, sym return on the way out

and keep your sweet plinites that let you TP your child bounties out with you and don't do the solhaven confluence because then it's like "the exit is on the north beach. enjoy your 200 room walk back to town"

[unkempt chasm]

Don't do the Solhaven Confluence because it has shells inside. 😬

[lethal hull]

Not in actual gameplay though. So you hunt, lets say for 2-3 hunts. You drop your boxes. You come back tomorrow. Hmm…these seemed a little low. Oh well, RNG. Go again. Next day. Man…still kinda low. Hmm. Those skins were sure kinda on the low end. Next day…it might be a week+ before you detect a pattern.

Loot pressure, even as designed, never anticipated 5 players with 30 characters moving between capped hunting zones for 5+ hours a day

It was 700 silver valravn skins that finally caused me to make my video on this. It hit me like a truck that something funky was happeniny

[brave turtle]

Shells are honestly so annoying and bad lol

[unkempt chasm]

Unless the Hinterwilds is its own exclusive zone and nothing else impacts it, then the pressure from Moonsedge (mostly that, probably not so much the Hive) is driving it up. Potentially, even the Scatter pressure is driving the Hinterwilds up if it's purely based on level checks without accounting for creatures being Ascension or not.

[lethal hull]

I think you’ll understand me assuming nothing about ME is working loot wise

[unkempt chasm]

Okay, but in that case, the Hinterwilds is also broken by extension (since grounds are supposed to relate to other grounds) and it's not necessarily an inherent flaw of the system.

[lethal hull]

Unironically good use of mount saddlebags

[gaunt ridge]

Regardless this is what I am going to do. Because if I have to swim with sharks to get what I want. I better start swimming like a shark. That's what I keep hearing. 🤷‍♀️

[lethal hull]

I actually think HW is a self contained loot ecosystem. Not ALL of HW is negative on pressure. If you can survive berserker’s end, its still strong gains

[gaunt ridge]

I mean, if this isn't the message, I would like to know what it is.

[unkempt chasm]

Okay, so even if the Hinterwilds is self-contained, loot pressure is working in that it's driving treasure toward the less hunted parts of it. So it still remains true that it cuts both ways, driving treasure down and up alike.

So the argument against loot pressure can't be founded on the idea that it doesn't accomplish its goal of encouraging moving around or that it makes things universally worse for everyone. Say that it's confusing, opaque, philosophically objectionable, unintuitive, counterintuitive, an overall net negative on the game, overly punishing to non-optimized builds, overly punishing to group activities that usually go for easy targets like bandits/warcamps/OSA, etc.

[lethal hull]

You have to either have spreadsheets or be eating the losses for awhile to know its happening. Also, its impossible to know its happening if you have no other comparative. It doesnt make folks move around, they dont even know where to move to. It may ‘work’ in that it raises and lowers loot, but where, how, when and in what critters is not known at all. Gemstone’s open mechanics are rarely well explained. Hidden ones are possibly not even working as described.

[unkempt chasm]

Psychologically, loot pressure does do a vastly better job of keeping me out of places with obviously poor loot than encouraging me to go to places with good loot. I can't even say "obviously good loot" because, yeah, it's sort of hard to identify how much is good.

And as much as I love spreadsheets and mechanics and math, this is one area where I don't bother and play it by feel instead. Is this hunting ground richer than bandits? If no, I skip. How much richer is this hunting ground than bandits? If subjectively not enough, I skip.

[lime hatch]

is it really impossible to know that loot where you're hunting isn't all that great lately or are you saying you need to know the instant it happens to minimize your losses? Are you sure people don't realize the loot is bad and try somewhere else? You're coming to so many strong conclusions based on assumptions and feelings here. Do you think it's possible that you feel very strongly negative about this topic and can only see the glass half full, at best?

When The Scatter loot is bad, I notice it right away. Few boxes, no nice gems dropping, etc. It's certainly not something I need a week and a spreadsheet to realize. And then the next morning it's good again.

[ashen yew]

People in this thread have mentioned several times the metric that I think a lot of us thing about loot with, which is basically boxes per hunt. That’s the small, fairly consistent number that we all have to be attentive to, so it’s a number that we notice when it varies

[lethal hull]

Its 100% possible. Its more likely than not. I see the same people in the same places when i hunt. Very rarely see people i dont expect since i almost always speak to new faces. I dont know how often you hunt or for how long. I suspect that the more you hunt, the more you’ll notice a shift just due to frequency

If loot pressure isnt going away, why not have an npc who informs you on the state of loot pressure when asked?

Ask merchant about Scatter. ‘Oh buddy! The eyes of koar are dropping like rain!’

[lime hatch]

I mean I only hunt the Scatter twice a day but I notice the loot trends (the middleground is blurry but when diamonds/emeralds are dropping it's obvious, and when nothing interesting is dropping that's also obvious).

[lethal hull]

Good or bad. Help or hurt. My premise remains another player being able to adjust your rewards from their play is bad game design

[bright zenith]

Competitive PvEvP is pretty cool actually. I think it’s a clever design but it’s fair to question whether or not the old gemstone III mechanic has a place in today’s gemstone IV

Questioning the validity of a PvEvP dynamic, when all other forms of PvP are strongly discouraged/against policy might also be a tack worth exploring. Loot pressure is hardly a dynamic that furthers the goal of RP, collaborative storytelling, community building, or even CvC. It’s so meta in today’s environment it’s truly a PvP scenario

[lime hatch]

It's almost like they wanted the world to feel alive and changing in a multiplayer game - but I agree that's a great/difficult question!

[unkempt chasm]

I do want to reiterate that, at cap, in a hypothetical world without loot pressure, I'd expect that the Confluence, Hinterwilds, Hive, Sanctum, and Scatter all end up worse off than they are now. It's bandits, Moonsedge, Nelemar, OSA, OTF, and warcamps that I'd expect to get better. Plane 4 I could see going either way.

If people would be okay with that, then that's cool, but we've already dealt with enough unintended consequences from loot cap that I just hope people are thinking through loot pressure thoroughly. 😄

(And as primarily a bandit hunter, I'd be super okay with it. 👀)

[violet fjord]

I thought at some point it was stated that there is a difference between loot pressure and skin value. Maybe related, but also potentially possible for, say, valravn plumes to plummet irrespective of general loot pressure if there is a disproportionate number of plumes being sold. Did I make that up?

[ashen yew]

My recollection is that skin value is affected by a different pressure system, yeah

[split yacht]

I thought skins were not originally under loot pressure, but following that myklian scale skin-hunter situation years ago, skins were brought into loot pressure.

This is all off of my flawed memory though.

[placid vortex]

Leafiara is very accurate on loot pressure being good. Bandits and warcamps are different sorts of treasure. And skins are not impacted by loot pressure, but have a whole different design based on damage, quality, and furrier sales of that skin.

Loot pressure keeps it moving. If people didn't have a reason to move, it would just be globs of people in certain areas due to whatever they found to be best for them. The people making lootcap move around a lot. Maybe not all of them, but we see people shift around all month who sit at the top 1% of gains.

Tough to measure it right now, because Duskruin does pull a lot of the loot hunters away.

[ashen yew]

my understanding for skins is that unlike loot pressure it is actually possible for all skins to be pushed down because, as wyrom says, skin value is based on how many of that skin is sold (absolute frequency), not on their relative frequency compared to all skins

[unkempt chasm]

I bet valravn plumes come under fire because those are in Fjallarhaart as well as the Spirit Walk and Pits of the Dead, and the two of those parts that aren't the Pits are pretty swarmy. Meanwhile, undansormr scales are up to the moons in value because they only appear in slower areas and nobody likes hunting them.

[violet fjord]

I like hunting them, I just don’t like the disciples they hang around 😆 (also mutants are annoying with their brace)

[unkempt chasm]

This is where I could pretend that by "them" I meant "the slower areas," but I didn't. 🤣
But okay, fine, one person likes hunting undansormrs. But that's why their scales retain value!

[lethal hull]

Ive moved to angargreft and End lately. Pit spawns are very slow

Undansormrs are just cool. I like hunting them now since i made my video on the hinterwilds and kinda fell in love with them

I dont actually believe that loot pressure is ever going away..but i think some modifications would make it far less awful when its awful. OSA should, for example, have loot pressure based on what sea you are in. I shouldnt spend 300m on a boat and be choked out on loot because someone else is one room off shore for 12 hours a day on a sloop. If i sail to other seas, i should escape localized loot pressure.

Would also like to see price floors put in on skin value and loot floors based on critter level. So when pressure is helping someone, great. When 30 characters autopiloted by 5 players are hurting someone, that should be prevented via a loot floor. Also, folks who have hit cap for loot should no longer affect pressure with their kills.

[flint wharf]

maybe i'll finally brave the hinterwilds and see if I can boost the Pit spawns for ya with my lil group... i'm just cozy in Icemule. Plus i hear everyone's gotta sit in the same supernode in HW... is that true?

[lethal hull]

I rest off node. You are welcome to chill in the graveyard with me. Im not watching autobot screen scroll while i rest

The lookout tower is also usually empty. When i truly want to hide, i rest in the river of colors.

[flint wharf]

No autobots here. Super boring. We dont really do anything but sit there... Yer biggest risk would be me wanting to talk shop

But... based on your comment, the supernode thing is true?

[ashen yew]

The pipe den is the only super node in HW yes

[unkempt chasm]

Nothing really boosts the Pit spawns, to be honest. I mean, maybe slightly, but like... could have ten characters in there and it would still be slower than three characters in Fjallarhaart. Possibly even two characters in Fjallarhaart.

Not even joking when I say the best way to boost Pits spawns might actually be hanging out in the Angargreft and hoping some of the things there wander through the maw into the pits. 😂

[slow zodiac]

the pit seems to spawn a broader area than actually inside the pit, which I think drives some of this feeling. You'll see them creep into the great chamber and some of the halls se

[trail cloak]

Just do the Greatchamber boogie with me. It’s always a party!

[cobalt jetty]

I would like to see Auchand redo the creature boundaries for HW. I know he considers it a thing for HW, but it goes against how the rest of the game works and it really makes it more difficult than it needs to be.

Also, it kept being repeated today, I'm just going to automate and do it right... Nobody said that. And good luck to you. But you do have to spend more than 1 hour per day if you want to maximize your silver gains.

[inner socket]

I disagree with your take here. Wyrom pretty much says that to play ball, you may need to look at optimizing via automating.

"You might need to get better at it. And I'm not saying go from zero to hero by strip mining an area with 10 accounts. But you can make silver in this game with very little effort with Lich supporting your pawning and such.

To be a player who does not automate things like this, or any combat, and be told that we need to 'get better' at playing the game via those methods to make silver in the game to keep up with those who have fully automated(1)...well, that certainly feels like being told you have to automate to do it right.

(1): And the point isn't to keep up with those who fully automate and spend hours and hours and hours in game, really, because we all know that to do that you have to play the game the way they do. It's just to be able to get something for the effort you put in that feels worth it. At least for me. But I can't speak for anyone else.

--and, to another point, why can't I maximize my silver gains relative to the time I have to spend in the game--without being punished for the way others play? I think Ragz's statement was the most thoughtful and accurate portrayal, for me, of how the treasure system feels as a hobby player who does not automate and also does not have 5 hours a day to play.

[hot quarry]

Wyrom is handcuffed in these types of situations. He can't straight out tell you bigshot but everyone and their mother knows that is the best way to farm silver. Even talking about the taboo nature of "automation" is just a way to bring reality into the situation. If you don't evolve then you get left behind. Of course the dude who is semi-awake Bigshotting 8 hours per day with minimal effort on their part (just requires them to look at the screen every couple minutes) will be in a much better position than the manual player who might farm 1 hour per day and that is an actual strenuous and mentally draining activty. It has nothing to do with you getting better, it is just a reality of life that automation = most efficient.

The only way you could potentially feel better about your 1 hour is if they had a lumnis boost for loot.

[cobalt jetty]

To me, the player is implying that you have to AFK script to make silvers. Which is not the case, but you do have to spend time hunting, a lot of time. You're not going to get much out of the game if you put in 15 minutes here, or an hour there. Maximizing loot takes hours, daily. It requires dedication.

Wyrom was saying use lich to support pawning. Which, if you're manually doing all these things, it's pretty exhausting and time consuming.

[unkempt chasm]

Heh, my pawning of things like wands, lockpicks, and moonstone cubes that always have the same description is so unsophisticated... 🤣
;alias add wand=get my wand\r sell my wand\r get my wand\r sell my wand\r get my wand\r sell my wand
But I actually do manually sort scrolls, reagents, clothing drops, jewelry, etc. since the nouns can change. (Which, to be fair, is probably one reason I mostly do bandits...)

Thankfully, gems and skins can just be bulk sold to their respective shops.

[ashen yew]

;foreach wand,lockpick in inv;get item;sell item

[unkempt chasm]

For some reason, "in inv" stopped working consistently for me at some point and I have yet to figure out why.

[ashen yew]

that is weird! you might need to update, or maybe you got a bag with 'inv' as the prefix haha

I don't use any looting scripts because I don't want uncontrolled inventory manipulation but I do use foreach a lot to manage loot

[cobalt jetty]

To further elaborate, yes a script, will always be faster than you. You're a human. Both the script and you are doing the same commands, it's just doing it way faster.

--and, to another point, why can't I maximize my silver gains relative to the time I have to spend in the game--without being punished for the way others play?

You can, just do nothing but hunt non-stop for your play time.

If the second part of that is talking about loot pressure, I support getting rid of it.

[hot quarry]

I did have my eloot try to sell and drop a "bow" that it thought was clothin on an alt because i didnt mark it. Besides for that the fear of loss is very small

[inner socket]

I have a different perspective here, on almost everything you said. But in many ways the floodgates were opened, and we can't get the ship back in the bottle. That being the case, I'm still wondering why I can't maximize my own silver gain relative to the time I spend without being punished by things like...MA groups of 15 in the area I'm in for 2 hours a night just trying to hunt.

[ashen yew]

yeah, I would use looting scripts if they crashed when items did unexpected things rather than drop the items, but then they would only be useful for attentive use haha

[unkempt chasm]

The idea of using eloot for anything other than skinning and looting terrifies me irrationally. 😄

[inner socket]

I manually do all those things, all the time, x decades as you know. I'm aware of the time it takes, and the effort. The system was intentionally built this way. I do not mind it.

(But still I'd give a lot to not see third party selling in pawnshops!)

[hot quarry]

The latest version of eloot is pretty good in that regard, you can set it up to only sell items in certain bags

[cobalt jetty]

It's just to be able to get something for the effort you put in that feels worth it. At least for me. But I can't speak for anyone else. (edited)

This is the part I wish you and Ptolemy and Akenna would focus on.

What do you feel is worth it, for the effort you put in.

[ashen yew]

I do mind it, really. I said earlier that managing random loot crap that is too valuable to drop on the ground but too cheap to care about is one of the least enjoyable parts of the game for me. I hate unnecessary inventory management, that's why I'm always encumbered

[hot quarry]

First hour every day, 10x loot boost every critter drops 10k silver

[ashen yew]

I know the people who write eloot are very good and trustworthy but large-scale inventory management is just in the realm of scripts that I won't run unless I wrote them

[unkempt chasm]

I don't think people want to see what happens in the world where this is the case, considering the big Ebon Gate raffle price drama a few years back.

[ashen yew]

honestly I am pro it, damn the torpedoes, let's break up the big banks

[unkempt chasm]

It ain't the big banks that'll be hurting. That was the whole message of the drama when raffle tickets were like 100k to 250k each.

[ashen yew]

make all the login bonuses just somebody shooting a cannon full of silver at you

[hot quarry]

I mean all it does is diminish the 8hr players effort at hour 5+ probably
So it wouldnt be worth it to play 12 hours a day which might be good for the game and the HUMAN

[inner socket]

Jay has given some great ideas, he has offered suggestions.

But as someone currently hunting Moonsedge, how about just some actual drops and some loot for that area 😂.

In all seriousness, I'd love more unique/fun/RP style drops. I'd love consistency in drop rates relative to the time I've spent hunting and the loot I have accumulated regardless of what other players are doing in the area, or even within my own group (looties. happens).

I'd love some systems that excite me loot wise. My best box found to this day was something I found before Stormy was even titled if that gives you an idea, and it wasn't something UBER POWERFUL. It was a simple well altered dagger in a sheath that just fit her well. I still have it. I've never altered it. It plays a huge part of her persona now.

[ashen yew]

I think raffle prices would go up but income for medium engaged players would go up too so they'd just be able to afford them

for the people who don't clear their lumnis things would be more complicated

but given that wyrom said the locksmith pool multiplied people's income by five totally unexpectedly I doubt they want to give out any more silver at the low end lol

[unkempt chasm]

The medium players mostly weren't the source of the great EG debate back then. It was the people who barely play at all, but come around for EG time, and then felt shut out by having to pay for service passes and then also pay (what they saw as) huge fees for raffles.

[hot quarry]

If we think lumnis for exp is fair to all then lumnis for loot might also be fair. In both situations the casual player benefits way more per hour of time than the 12 hr guy
So the silver farmings would lose some power

[ashen yew]

I think I am basically alone in saying that my priority is not loot being more exciting it's loot being less draining. everything should just drop promissory notes or boxfounds, those should be the only two types of drops

put the promissory notes in chunks of rock so they still weigh like 8 lbs

[unkempt chasm]

The Lumnis for loot idea has been floated many times and Wyrom's already said it would be counterproductive.
#1049529762407792761 message
We don't want to make silver generation easier though for the bottom 95%, that is even more counterproductive than introducing a cap [more strict than the current one, such as 10m a month]. If everyone is earning 10mil a month, we're worse off at 20bil to 30bil silver a month. I realize that's not realistic, but loot boosts that made making millions easier a week would not be a good solution for the game.
So I think this line of thinking has led him to the current path of diversifying tresaure beyond silver.

[hot quarry]

But if Wyrom had to raise prices due to Lumnis Loot then the casuals still win because they just boosted their silver earn by 2-5x maybe and the 12 hr guy only got his 12 hour hoard boosted 1x maybe....

[placid vortex]

I never scripted or used PsiNet or Lich, and I made way more silvers than most of you as a player.

¯_(ツ)_/¯

Single account, typing all of it.

[manic fossil]

lies

[inner socket]

Ok, when, in the late 1900s? flees

[placid vortex]

2006 to 2010 for sure!

[unkempt chasm]

Wyrom over here with the flex and mic drop. 🤣

[hot quarry]

Wyrom had to type upside down and up a hill both ways back in the day just to kill 10 giant rats

[placid vortex]

I made like 10mil in cyclops when I was hunting there in Prime.

[exotic zodiac]

using a bloomberg terminal, right???

[unkempt chasm]

Cyclops eyes actually are shockingly valuable, or at least were when I last looked in like February.

[hot quarry]

I didnt make jack back in the day.... 2000-2004, I swear gems dropped like 90% less back then and getting uncut diamond like omg im so lucky....

[ashen yew]

omg you're the reason people act the way they do in cyclops

it's wyrom's legacy

[unkempt chasm]

I've suspected he inspired the Solhaven lake skin farmers ever since an offhand forum comment from like 2016. 👀

[ashen yew]

I'm a believer in currency exchange, I think a one-time large devaluation of silver might be good for the game haha

it would kind of stick it to everybody who comes back to the game

maybe we could give them some kind of bank error in their favor

[placid vortex]

https://tenor.com/view/smile-nod-yes-robert-redford-beard-gif-10489927

[inner socket]

Ok so over a decade and a half ago. Have you considered dusting off that baddy and trying it now and see how it goes? I'd be interested in that experiment and your perspective on how it's the same or different now, for you.

Also, I'm not upset about my experiences in 2006-2010. I may have been on a break most of that time though 😂

I'm simply saying what is happening now feels much worse, like the casual player is being punished, than my historical perspective on loot/treasure. And I say that as a player who has rarely had more than 100mil in her bank account on a good day, and those moments have only happened because of lucky sells or lucky finds...in many years of playing. And I am FINE with that.

Of course-- to be honest, I feel that way about quite a few areas of the game--- because my experience is much more impacted by other players who are playing a game I don't recognize (via automation etc). So maybe it's just that I'm no longer vibing with what GS is now, what it has become, and I am trying to ask for changes to make it feel like the game I love and not me being the odd human out for NOT scripting everything, all the time. Maybe I'm just jaded and it's time to consider that players like me are no longer the target audience.

[placid vortex]

I still play in Platinum, usually undercover because my main is very outted. I still do higher than average there, but I haven't played too much in Prime. I did have my main in Prime though for a little bit (some whacko GM allowed 2x exp scrolls). I'll give it a whirl in Prime though to see how I do. I was coming at this at a self picking, skinning, and trading rogue. Making silvers was something I did prioritize as a player. I liked cool stuff and hurling items were never cheap.

[inner socket]

I'd be interested in your perspective. Try Moonsedge. It's terrible. Go to the Sanctum when there's a big group (you'll definitely die) and then grab Blades while he's at loot cap and see if you get the looties too. 😛

But seriously. I wish I had 5 hours a day to play anymore, that's just not life now. I'd love to just log in for my 2 hours and feel --idk accomplished? Like it was a well spent few hours moving me towards something other than the never ending slog of post cap life as a TWC bard who's just trying to get enough points to train MMC/EMC . Hah.

Also, @cobalt jetty ..types of things I'd love to see? Anything Avaluka has ever made. Seriously. Give me a dang certificate in a box for any of her fiddly-fun-baubles and I'd be thrilled. Heck, give me unique items I could use in her still---fruits only found in the loot system! There are so many ways that things could be FUN and feel worth it, for me.

[willow plaza]

I find it almost humorous that in the thread about "Treasure Improvement Proposals" the recent replies are "git gud" and "script it". I thought the whole point of this entire thread was to find ways to make treasure more exciting and engaging not advocating for it to be an automated 3rd party software zombiefest. As far as eliminating loot pressure... it was in the list of potential suggestions posted when the thread started. The very first item in the list, actually. I'm not sure "adapt or die #script4life" is really all that constructive.
#1190341191074594846 message

[hot quarry]

Sadly GS loot is a numbers game, kill 10,000 easy critters over 12 hours > being at the highest skill and killing the hardest content. (loot-wise)

[cobalt jetty]

I think it would be interesting to see breakable versions of things drop. So that you get to play with all the fun toys, but they're only good for a limited amount of time.

[unkempt chasm]

The loot pressure note is interesting. However, it stemmed from this comment from Shan...
#1190341191074594846 message
Related to that, I would much rather see loot pressure be applied to an individual account or character, not to a hunting area. We now have a loot cap, so I'm not sure why there needs to be a double dose of loot penalization applied.
...which is vague enough for some interpretation, at least to me, so there's an open question of how Auchand took it.

There's a distinction being drawn between the idea of "account pressure" and loot cap, so my interpretation was that it's not so much eliminating loot pressure as moving it to the individual level. So, potentially, in what Shan is saying, you'd still be encouraged to move around if you overhunted a given area. The change would be that you wouldn't be encouraged to move around if others overhunted that area.

I actually think that's a pretty elegant solution, now that I look back at it. I haven't gotten the impression that that's what others are seeking, though, but I could be wrong!

[cobalt jetty]

The biggest takeaway from this thread for me, in the recent days, is that people have way higher expectations of the loot system vs reality of what the loot system is.

Also, I would bet money that the majority of players do not move around, and have no interest in moving around.

They find a town/community they like, and integrate into it. Forcing them to move around to chase treasure destroys those communities which should be preserved and encouraged.

[willow plaza]

It would. Sort of like a feras version of high-end scripts/abilities. It's a neat idea. I think the GM consensus was that consumable items tend to be throw-aways, and after a time they're probably would be again, but it would be fun for sure.

"higher expectations of the loot system vs reality of what the loot system is." -- you're right, but that's probably leaning a lot into the fact that this thread's topic is suggestions on improving that system. A lot of throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks.

[cobalt jetty]

I wouldn't do weapons/armor versions. But toys/food/etc items.

Like a breakable still, or a breakable pots and pans, or wine press, etc.

I feel like one of the things I enjoy the most and that we don't see enough of, are the day-to-day items.

Like a hairbrush, that might do a unique temporary hair style. Or a toothbrush that provides a unique temporary unique field of shiny teeth.

There is so much more to a world than a weapon, or shield, or armor. What are all the little things that may be missing.

[willow plaza]

I can't speak for everyone else, but I dig that suggestion. From what I've read the core "problem" with loot pressure can be interpreted as "I don't want someone else's activity in an area to diminish my potential for loot", that would resolve that, I think. That's certainly been the angle I've taken with all my comments, anyway.

[willow plaza]

I like these ideas a lot. I think it would be really fun to oust the "junk" treasure items and replace them with stuff like this... promote RP, and something fun and exciting rather than doorknobs and chipped bricks.

[unkempt chasm]

Yeah, Shan's proposal (or at least my interpretation of it) seems to answer the question I've kept posing of what would still encourage people to move around in the absence of the current loot pressure system. I like it a lot.

[hot quarry]

I agree that switching to personal loot pressure would be better and then maybe an incentive to diversify hunting grounds and not a penalty.
And I am sure people are going to want to track it so have a system to quantity it

[unkempt chasm]

Back in 2020, I proposed an Ascension skill called Wanderlust that would give some kind of short-duration combat bonus only the first time you visited a hunting ground for the day. Sort of like a 1x/day per hunting ground. 🤣

What we're saying now reminds me of that.

[cobalt jetty]

I don't understand why we're trying to force people to move around. What benefit is there to breaking apart a community

[hot quarry]

No one is forced to do anything, you become more well rounded if you do though

[unkempt chasm]

I've been assuming it's because otherwise we all just overcrowd the most accessible hunting ground available and Moonsedge starts to look like Nelemar. (...in terms of population, not loot.)

[cobalt jetty]

Not all professions/builds are viable in all areas. Sometimes you're stuck.

I would love to move back to the EN where my PP is, but OTF is trash. And there's no higher level area with undead on the horizon that I'm aware of.

[unkempt chasm]

This is a good point. An empath probably shouldn't be moving to the Hive, Confluence, or Scatter that all have their reasons for being poor options for them. 🤔

[willow plaza]

I don't mind the desire to have a shifting demographic across the game, I don't think it's needed, but I don't think it's inherently detrimental either. I'd like to see that push focused more on enticing people into areas (unique area treasure, high value treasure that only drops in certain areas in certain "seasons", etc.) rather than running them out of others with penalties.

[hot quarry]

I mean would it be bad if month starts..... day 10. adventurers get a message from solhaven saying. The sanctum has been overrun with creature activity due to a lack of defense (ppl hunting it), we beckon all adventurers to come help. public message to denote that there is large gap in hunting pressure and therefore adventurers would benefit from moving. The system "boosts" the area.
What does this do? if your local hunting ground is overrun with MA then the MA ppl might move to Sanctum and then your having a better time OR you could go chase more loot/experience from a "boosted" area.

[willow plaza]

If I'm being honest, that sounds like a really neat idea. Positive reinforcement rather than negative. It's a win-win.

[cobalt jetty]

I think it makes more sense for leveling characters, push them around the game, let them experience the different cultures/communities. I don't think it should be forced upon capped characters.

[ashen yew]

I still just haven't seen any good arguments against loot pressure besides "I don't think other people's behavior in the game should affect mine in either positive or negative ways", which I don't think is a very practical position in an MMO. I genuinely feel like the vast majority of the comments people make about loot pressure are simply incorrect about the way the system works.

[cobalt jetty]

Loot pressure is trying to force behavior that players don't like, and in my opinion don't participate in.

How many people actually move around? I would say it's not the majority.

[ashen yew]

I think that it is fine for the actions of other players to affect you in a multiplayer game. even if loot pressure did not exist, we would still be constantly interacting with and cooperating/competing with other players in countless ways in our gameplay. it is not realistic to expect otherwise

[willow plaza]

*"it is not realistic to expect otherwise" *

Why is it not realistic? What determent to the game experience do you see happening if it was removed?

[ashen yew]

it is not realistic to expect other people not to affect you because of the multitude of ways in which other people are constantly affecting you. for example, the entire idea of accumulating silvers would be largely meaningless were it not for the market that exists between players, and that market is itself subject to constant fluctuation due to the actions and choices of other players

[willow plaza]

Trying to understand your perspective, so I hope I'm not coming off facetious. What happens if we remove loot pressure, specifically.

[hot quarry]

HESS prices 10x

[ashen yew]

we discussed it some earlier in this thread. there would be a flight towards already popular, low-loot options such as bandits and OSA. the most choked hunting grounds such as OTF and nelemar would become vastly more profitable and those areas would become even more crowded. almost all of the hunting done by people actually posting in this thread would collapse in value and we would all make a lot less loot. ascension hunting grounds would over time become ghost towns with no visitors except the diehard achievement grinders uninterested in loot

[hot quarry]

Like I said earlier in this thread, I am the unsung hero of propping up other hunting ground's loot. Accepting donations directly to my poor poor OTF bank account.

[ashen yew]

also, the large group MA players that have been discussed repeatedly in this thread as causing significant disruption would now all descend on the same easiest hunting grounds that you would also be strongly incentivized by the loot system to be hunting in

[willow plaza]

What are your thoughts about shifting loot pressure to an individual/account metric? Do you think that would prevent that scenario?

[ashen yew]

that idea is not clearly defined enough to really respond to. given what we understand about the existing loot pressure system, it would likely have a glacial speed and be barely legible, so it would be unlikely to affect player behavior. people would do the same thing as the no loot pressure design, but also they'd complain more

[cobalt jetty]

I think OTF would still have lower loot because it has lower level creatures. I'm still advocating for loot bands of 10 levels. But there can be bands within bands.

A level 94 creature caps loot at 940 silvers.

Removing loot pressure doesn't change the base settings of loot. There are variations between hunting grounds.

TBH, the ascension areas are already ghost towns compared to any other capped areas.

And other incentives could be added/offered to encourage moving to challenging areas, such as charmgems

[ashen yew]

that's true, because the increased loot is not sufficient to counterbalance the difficulty

gemcharms!

also, if the system were on an individual account basis, it would be much more vulnerable to gaming or exploitation in ways I would not want to predict. I can't fully analyze the account-level loot pressure design but I don't see any ways in which it provides advantages over the current system, so why would you want to do it?

[cobalt jetty]

I don't think either is necessary. You limit loot in other ways, like reducing the value of everything by 90%

The higher level areas, which are more challenging, have a higher base loot level.

[hot quarry]

that would make all the silver hoarders mega rich, it should be the opposite.... we need more parity not wealth gaps.

[cobalt jetty]

They're already mega rich. And you will never catch up. Their wealth is tackled another way, which you won't have access to. Because you're a dirty poor. (This is a joke)

[hot quarry]

But if we reduce the spigot 90% they go from rich to sultans... The price of silver would spike.

[cobalt jetty]

It won't matter, you can't buy anything of value with silvers anyways except for the rare grand auctions

[unkempt chasm]

This question is probably the best exemplification of the gap between people who draw conclusions out of the tangible, quantifiable, observable differences in a hypothetical model and people who raise quasi-a priori philosophical objections to a system before proposing alternatives, both derived from subjective feelings and personal experience.

Either that or it's more simple macro vs. micro.

Either that or I'm just spewing babble at 1:37 in the morning. You know, either/or.

[hot quarry]

None of us have truly quantifiable data to support our arguments. Only GMs who see the pressure system do...

[unkempt chasm]

Yeah, that's why I specified a hypothetical model. But you're right, technically we're hypothetically modeling both what loot pressure currently is doing and what its absence would do.

But my point is that some people don't even care what it's doing nor what its absence would do, to the degree that its absence might be measurably worse for them and yet they'd still want that on philosophical grounds.

(And, to be absolutely clear, I'm not saying anything's wrong with that. I love philosophy!)

[ashen yew]

I mean I also do, admittedly, have a philosophical objection to the idea that we should seek to make the design of an MMO as close to single-player as possible. call it my Kosterian upbringing, but I prefer evolutionary and reactive ecologies

[willow plaza]

"don't see any ways in which it provides advantages over the current system, so why would you want to do it"

Because on the matter of silver generation, the people playing 10 hours a week with their friends in their favorite hunting grounds having a better treasure experience isn't going to really budge the needle, where as MA loot farmers are already playing that system by moving around to counteract the pressure. We already know the vast majority of players are not focused on loot (based on the silver generatoin reports from Wyrom), and those who are... just move.

[cobalt jetty]

They could also just change currency. Starting on X date, everyone will earn gold coins, and the gold coins are worth 90% of what silver is currently worth. And you offer drains for silvers until those are gone or no longer eligible for anything

A reset of the economy

[hot quarry]

https://tenor.com/view/crying-jessie-pinkman-breaking-bad-he-cant-keep-getting-away-with-it-gif-5612942
Dam those MA'ers!

[ashen yew]

I think the point is that I don't think that is a good analysis of the way loot pressure works now or the way it affects behavior. again we go back to the starting point of this conversation -- people think the Hinterwilds loot is pushed down. it isn't. people think that MAers are costing them money. a fourteen-man MA crew in the scatter is making you money, not costing you money, because you are almost certainly not in the scatter. these are actually just misapprehensions of the structure of the system

[hot quarry]

Tikba is the MA'er confirmed

[unkempt chasm]

I'm not sure that Wyrom's silver generation reports imply that the vast majority of players aren't focused on loot. They might only imply things like low average weekly playtime or, say, lack of understanding of loot. I don't think I'd feel safe asserting that a high or even moderate percentage of players know how aspects of the treasure system like loot pressure, uphunting vs. underhunting, group bonuses, etc. work.

[ashen yew]

I agree that a lot of the argument is based on the idea that the way people are playing now is causing them to lose money to loot pressure. they want it changed because they aren't happy with loot, so it's the politician's fallacy. but the reality is, based on the way people report their play in this thread, they are almost all making money off loot pressure. the change they are asking for would make them unhappier

[hot quarry]

But seriously that is both right and wrong, if you can swim the current in the swarm the MA'er is in fact helping you gain silvers but if you sink and die/flounder then the MA'er is in fact slowing you down immensely.
Summary: Git Gud

[ashen yew]

the only player who I am confident would make more money if we got rid of loot pressure is leafiara because she DOES run a massive MA bandit crew and she is literally the target audience for who would make a lot more money hahaha

[unkempt chasm]

Yet here I am, mostly arguing against it for days on end. 🤣

[ashen yew]

yeah I was gonna say

the fact that she is not heavily promoting the change is worth consideration lol

[cobalt jetty]

The 14-man MA group would be negatively affecting player loot if they move around and happen to come to your preferred area.

[ashen yew]

good luck in the hive

[unkempt chasm]

To be fair, it's conversely worth considering that people hunting the Hinterwilds and the Sanctum, which I assume massively benefit from loot pressure, are for some reason on the other side arguing against the system.

It's a weird world, but this is GS.

[hot quarry]

Some principles in life are worth defending even at your own expense! Murica!

[hot quarry]

I think the new farming meta if you are a solo player is the "Remora Fish" strategy where you follow the big MA "shark" and pick off the excess food and leftovers.

https://tenor.com/view/hunting-for-food-seagrass-and-the-ecosystem-when-sharks-attack-underwater-ocean-gif-19078157

[ashen yew]

well they do leave a lot of treasure on the ground

[lethal hull]

Eh. Nevermind. I wrote a bunch here. Then deleted it. Im not interested in advocating for change anymore. Im frustrated and feel more like quitting the game than fighting for it to improve.

[cobalt jetty]

I agree that it's frustrating. An in-game economy is one of the more complex things to create and manage and for better or worse the GS economy has just been left to do its own thing for the past 30 years.

[flint wharf]

I feel like Wyrom’s automation comment was geared towards “if you want to be in the top 1-5% of looters, you need to do be as efficient as possible” and it somehow got twisted into, “if you’re not automating, you’re not playing the game right.”

Stepping away from loot pressure and MAs for a sec.

I am surprised, that in a loot system where it’s possible to drop a +25 to weapon bonus Enhancive item (sells for 200m+ in the market) that we can drop things like base OTS scripted items (like an animal longsword or base sigil staff).

I think introducing items like that would make loot exciting again, and could even spur spend at events. It makes a lot of sense, to me at least, to take things that have lots of upgrades to them and hook the masses with entry level items.

[buoyant rain]

This morning in HW... 63 critter kills and searches. 2 boxes. 😦 I cannot compete with MA groups, and when they charge into a hunting area, it makes it so dangerous I have to leave. This isn't fun.

[lethal hull]

Lets be honest. If you aren't automating, you aren't going to be able to buy a majority of things in the game. Simple as that. Lots and lots of wealth is accumulated every day from folks who are more or less (some more, some less) non responsive scripters.

[brave turtle]

I don't even think Wyrom meant bigshot. I think he meant eloot. Assistance with looting/selling is huge, and scripts like sloot and then eloot are why people are generating so much more income than they used to. People did not used to pick up every wand, quartz orb, box, etc, and get silver for it and now they do. People who don't use eloot are at a disadvantage there, because it's more manual work to do it, for sure. But I don't for a second think Wyrom was saying "just use bigshot, get good" about silver generation.

[lethal hull]

The game creates the incentive structure. The incentive structure right now is to automate as many accounts as you can, find a spot in game where many others also automate, try not to stir up to much trouble and find ways to squelch as much info as you can to make script checks (if they happen) less likely to be a problem. Even then, its a warning if you are caught. So the incentive is to script without care at least until the first warning.

[buoyant rain]

This is precisely it.

[violet fjord]

I left Eldurhaart as soon as I saw you, and moved to Ojanhaart

[buoyant rain]

I left and logged out. You win. 👍 The fact this is even an issue should tell staff what they need to know to create entertainment that suits the type of activity/behavior they want to promote.

[lethal hull]

Meanwhile, I feel like a chump. Because I manually use my empath to heal. Or because I manually have him repair my ship. Or I don't pick my bard in the pool unless I can stare at the screen because I don't want to get script checked and fail. I just feel like I'm playing a different game, one where I'm at the poker table, and I can't pick out the sucker. So that means the sucker is me

[cobalt jetty]

When you say, aren't going to be able to buy a majority of things in the game, what specifically, are you referring to?

[cobalt jetty]

You're allowed to use scripts. You just can't use them afk.

[violet fjord]

My point is you come in here to call out the increased danger that the (my) MA crew is allegedly causing , when it simply isn't the case. I didn't even attack any creatures in the zone, all I did was put on my enhancives and some startup buffs - then you asked what I was doing and I left. There isn't anything to win, I left the area specifically so that I didn't impact you because I understand the impact it can have. I'm not saying you have to like the playstyle, but please don't twist the situation to make it appear as though you were forced to leave or change what you were doing.

[red crystal]

The idea that rare very random very distributed event OTS items would drop is very interesting. I’ve seen a couple very interesting drops in the past 30 years but nothing that excited me say a valence weapon dropping off red orc to some noob. There would have to be some kinda flare or message and even if they couldn’t pick it up they’d call out and it would cause a scene. Maybe they could come pre-temp sung so they wouldn’t get missed. Hmmm. Rare yes but an interesting idea.

[lethal hull]

I'll just be blunt, cause why not. People in this game use silver to trade for event currency. You know it and so do I. lets leave the game's intentions aside for a moment, it just is what it is.

So.....lets say I don't want a SINGLE piece of gear. Let's say I'm fine on the mechanical end. If I want to learn a language, I need to wait for them to release a chance (a chance) at a language cuff. I have to then outbid everyone else (I cant) in pay currency. Okay..so I don't have pay currency....what about if I supplement some with silver. Nope. Don't have enough of that either. So, no language cuff for me.

Lets keep going. Middle Class Properties or whatever we are calling them today. If I want to get one...I have to hope they release again. Preferably in a part of the world I want one. Then...I need a minimum of 150m sivler...but of course they are going to at least double in value next time so its more like 300m silver. Naturally...even if i CAN get that much...odds are good someone has much much more and I'm never going to be able to outbid them. So...it is what it is. It doesn't matter what people are trying to get.

everything in this game now that is worth having is for pay currency. I'm not going to open my wallet for a game that is years behind on development goals that then tells me Obskruul was made 'for fun' but then asks for $500.

Anyway, there we are. The reality that...why am I bothering? I logged in last night...walked into the Hinterwilds, turned on my enhancives....can't even charge those for silver....and got out my weapon. Then...I just stopped caring and logged off

I have propbably 500m in OSA boats...I paid cash for that. ALL of that (cash to simu, btw. I bought DR books from the simustore and ran them. Sold the BS for the silver). I was never going to earn that. Ever. 300m for a frigate? And why did I buy this...so I could give others, total strangers actually, not even friends, a chance to enjoy the OSA system.

Now....I look at it and feel like a moron

[hot quarry]

I would also say the p2w hess stuff is priced for big money spending not for silver farming. It just goes to show you what great lengths you have to go to even indirectly get the silver amount to then get the BS to then get all items. Its not supposed to be for regular farmers.

[cobalt jetty]

I think your statement is accurate.

[lethal hull]

There is someone on staff who thinks Obskruul is worth $500. That person needs a boss and that boss needs to give them a reality check.

[buoyant rain]

Your arrival into the room was met with a sum total of 103 lines of screen scroll before you left and I was then in RT, prone, being damaged, and I still hadn't even recognized you even moved out of the room because it was so overwhelming and I was trying to figure out wtf just happened amid massive screen scroll.

Edit: Just to be clear Kaetal - I don't want to war with you. I don't want to argue with you, or anyone else here. However to suggest your behavior doesn't impact me is flat out false. That said, it is staff's job to figure out how to satisfy both customers if they want to prioritize customer retention.

[lethal hull]

Games are supposed to be fun. And they are supposed to be rewarding. And right now Gemstone is struggling to be fun and it has NEVER been rewarding. I'll be honest, if it wasn't for Thandiwe on storylines, Xynwen's work on lore and the team of gurus and coders who are supporting the RP side of the game so well lately, I'd have quit months ago

[cobalt jetty]

I think it's fair to criticize just how much "content" has been placed behind the paywall. At the same time, I think that's a separate conversation than the recent conversation about loot and the overall economy.

[brave turtle]

everything in this game now that is worth having is for pay currency. I'm not going to open my wallet for a game that is years behind on development goals that then tells me Obskruul was made 'for fun' but then asks for $500. This is absolutely correct - they're not going to sell anything worthwhile for silvers ever again (setting aside CLAIM EVENT). It's been that way for years now, outside of occasional silver auctions (which were awesome, and I hope we get those again). If that's an issue for you, I dunno what to tell you. I don't like it either, but the idea that you can make silvers and then buy anything more mechanically beneficial than a 5x ice flaring broadsword at Prem Fest or something is long dead, lol

[cobalt jetty]

You can buy leftovers, usually.

[lethal hull]

Eh...not really. As long as a secondary market exists for silver::pay event currency. And as long as event claim is a thing...silver -> pay event product is still possible. but not at the pricepoints they think are reasonable.

I really don't know what else to say. Someone on staff thought a +5 AVD on locked to impact flaring 5x weapon was worth $200. at the same event where you could have a +25 ots valence for 5kbs. The game thinks adding a bane vs a single critter is good value at $1000. The game thinks its okay to charge $120 for you to add +1 to an enhancive, no matter how weak that enhancive is.

[brave turtle]

Prices are absurd - zero arguments out of me on that one

[lethal hull]

I really have no more suggestions. I'm logged in, staring at the screen and can't muster up the Fs to even bother trying to play atm.

[cobalt jetty]

I think you're right, but that's a different conversation altogether and those are things I would not include in a conversation that is focused solely on loot/economy.

[lethal hull]

I guess I see them all tied together. Folks with lots of silver regularly buy and sell pay currency. So...its hard to look at one and not see the obviously and clear connections with the other. But like I said...I don't have anything more really to add.

[cobalt jetty]

That happens, but I'm pretty sure that's an unintended side-benefit because players value both and not a goal or design-factor for "them"

[lethal hull]

I watched a good friend assemble a million bs to buy his wife something at a mania. And he didn't get it

[red crystal]

Is DR and EG priced for dozen big spenders but not intended for an average consumer player? If so the marketing around them and OTS costs for a lot of items there seem to belong in the HESS tent and not in all the shops. Cuz that’s not intended for anyone who isn’t going to spend like an addict? Clearly HESS is just another shop at this point. Maybe the Whalebarrow is the new HESS but at the least it’s time for cost balancing or a name change. And inflation due to MA armies generating mass silver is a key part of all of this as that trickles through the whole economy and perhaps that’s part of what’s skewing the debate here. HESS is no longer HESS because so much equipment is out there and available at 200-300m because silver has been pumping in at the top but the trickle down is maiming higher prices. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[lethal hull]

Want to talk about feeling like a sucker? There you go. It was a once in a lifetime shot at something in GS...and it flopped. You spend enough cash to get a million bs and you don't get what you were targeting.

[cobalt jetty]

What was the thing

[lethal hull]

A mania auction offering. I don't want to out anyone. It was known and they got outbid. No foul play. But just because something was fair, doesn't mean it was good for the health of the game, the health of that player or the health of the community. That was the day I decided I'm never doing that. I'm never doing anything remotely like that. Because I won't be in that position.

[cobalt jetty]

I'm going to assume it's a private property. They have always been rare, and expensive, and the competition for them varies wildly depending on where they're located. There are "issues" with creating them that they're going to have to figure out (storage) ... eventually. I think you've seen me advocate for "apartments" and the like.

[lethal hull]

EG, to be fair, tends to be very consumer friendly in pricing by GS standards

I'd like to have the EG price person to have a long talk with the DR price person. Help them see their finger keeps hitting the zero button an extra time for no good reason

[cobalt jetty]

This is just flat out, not true. There is no inflation due to MA armies generating mass silver. The amount of silver has no influence whatsoever on the price of anything at pay events.

[red crystal]

We need a different thread for this but 100%. The players are being charged for what the “businesses” believes they will tolerate and no sane person would agree that the prices are reasonable…ergo we are insane. But the game suffers for it in the long run. Again perhaps its own thread that will get out of control in about 5 minutes but….

[hot quarry]

To defend silvers bit, I just saw a whale, probably an MA'er, sell a very nice shortsword that was a steal at 100m+, it wasnt a fancy script but it was 9x and most of the fixings with extreme WPS. While it might be true you can't directly buy very nice objects with silvers you can definitely participate in the silver economy and get "most of the time" even better deals than DR/EG etc.... people are literally selling stuff at 50% discounts off original cost to make.... I know it scary to buy used and the item might not be perfect for your exact situation but GS ppl need to learn to recycle to find the best value.

[cobalt jetty]

If you don't like the price, don't buy it. When they don't sell, maybe they'll reevaluate the asking price.

[hot quarry]

So many deals to be had

[lethal hull]

You do realize you say 'steal at 100m+' and you are talking a sum most people have never had?

[red crystal]

Is your claim that the amount of silver in the game not causing inflation or that the MA armies don’t generate too much silver?

[cobalt jetty]

The amount of silver has no bearing on pay events.

I think everyone is generating too much silver.

[hot quarry]

Whale A spends 200K BS building item over a few years
Whale A sees better item and liquidates old item for 100m (50% off)
Savvy silver farmer who has never bought simucoins buys item that was basically constructed from p2w for half off all in silvers

[lethal hull]

I also genuinely think most players at some point return to the game, spend a bucket on one or two DRs to 'catch up' on 20 years of GS being the worst rewarding game gear wise in history, and then suddenly never have a need to spend like that again.

[cobalt jetty]

We also need more silver removed from the game, via drains. We generate more than we drain, so there will always be an issue with trying to fix the economy. Which is why I argue for a 90% reduction in selling values. Player to player transactions just moves silver from A to B. We need to move silver from A to gone.

[lethal hull]

meh...the game is telling me what I already know.

Have a nice day all.

[red crystal]

Would love to see the numbers of players who come@back. Get sucked in then after a couple months sober up after seeing their CC bill and leave again. I’d rather have less of that and a system where people stay long term.

[buoyant rain]

The last promo had about 100 acct reactivations last i heard, though unsure where the final number ended up at the end.

[hot quarry]

Another way you could look at the p2w atmosphere is that you having a job make X per hour. Your X per hour is probably 10+ times what the silver farmers make per hour for 1 account. you are paying that MA'er with 1 day worth of your work for something (100m lets say) that his 1 account did over say 100 hours. So who is getting the better deal assuming the MA'er is not just sleeping?

[red crystal]

100 new players is great…just 100 accounts maybe not so much. But it’s a win for the community everytime we can keep someone

[red crystal]

Ptolemy is right that a lot of this is connected. There are several elements of this discussion that all play a part of the general (mass) dissatisfaction around loot and cost and silver and pay event and pricing. One thing that kinda strikes me wrong is thinking about this game as a job. RMT hasn’t been talked about much here and it’s been around forever but given the high ticket cost of playing and the $$ I’ve seen stuff advertised for it’s another element at play here. That being said we aren’t here (most of us) as workers we are here as paying players wanting to consume an entertainment product. If the cost becomes too high for the entertainment value then we have an issue. So what changes will better balance the cost and entertainment through the loot system? I think lower silver helps and I like Alisters idea above about loot drops and I like several of Ptolmeys ideas and none of those compete with each other.

See we can all (almost all) get along

[hot quarry]

There is no change Simu would greenlight that would stop them from selling $1000 script items. (Unless everyone stops paying) So if the question here is how can simu give me a FUN time while also helping me to easily buy said $1000 item from in-game activities then I think the answer from Simu is just No.
In an alternative world simu lowers the price of HESS by 90% and then it only takes a couple months or year to buy the best gear..... and simu makes very limited event $$$ (loss of $100Ks of dollars)

[red crystal]

You are right. Simu is charging what we have shown then we will pay. But there is an objective absurdity to the point that’s been reached there. And I question its sustainability. But I also don’t see a collective will to change. So I suspect the slow slide will continue.
I’ve only ever seen one business model that can charge whatever it wants and its customers still go to any lengths to pay but here we are 🤷🏻‍♂️

Original topic question issue though. Is it better to reduce silver generation or increase silver consumption? The claim event seems like the single greatest silver drain ever seen. More of those? Or does loot cap pressure stuff meet the same goal?

[hot quarry]

Wyrom stated he needs to do both...

[cobalt jetty]

None of this stuff is needed. Its extra.

[red crystal]

Seems like the general audience is cool with the claim event approach for draining. The generation piece is what flummoxes everyone

[hot quarry]

I think they should move to a new currency gold, have some mass silver conversion event and reset the economy. How bad the conversion rate is would be up to Wyrom or maybe there is no conversion rate.... it just decays.

[cobalt jetty]

Lol of course the general audience is for free event currency at the cost of simu revenue

[red crystal]

The entire game is extra. A nice mean vs gruel is extra. Most of American life is extra. But it’s also relative to where you live. 🤷🏻‍♂️.

[cobalt jetty]

You don't need hess gear to play the game. You don't need the scripted items to roleplay. They are upsells on the base package.

[red crystal]

Yes the poor for profit company vs it’s greedy customers 😂

[hot quarry]

I think most of the disconnect in this thread is coming from a few ppl not making silver as efficiently as they hoped. Maybe this whole thing can be avoided if we just teach them how to fish! (so to speak)

[cobalt jetty]

Do you walk into high end stores and demand free stuff

[hot quarry]

That only works in San Francisco bro

[red crystal]

Hah what an incredible straw man. No I have a real career and a real income and if I walk into a store and they have a $20 item priced at $350 I ask them why. I certainly don’t buy it without question. And if I’m a Comcast customer and they hike my fees to $250 a month and then I get annoyed and call them and if they don’t bring the price down to a competitive level I switch services (which in this scenario means playing another game). Silly question.

[inland cradle]

Can we have DR claim event boxes every month? Let me drain silver as we go, save up some booklets ahead of DR and get some exp along the way.

[cobalt jetty]

You said, the general audience is cool with claim event. Claim event is basically free event currency.

I asked if you ask for free things at stores. And you tell me you ask a store why the $20 is priced $350. Or how if a company raises its prices, you find a cheaper price.

[cobalt jetty]

No. Because the company has to make money to survive. We're lucky we got the event boxes we did.

Silvers should not be your solution for how to get event currency.

[hot quarry]

The company tries to survive..... but if their prices are too high they die from customers leaving

[cobalt jetty]

If their prices are too high, I would assume they would lower them after nothing sells.

Look at what happened to spin night. Nothing was bought, so they became unlimited OTS.

[blazing elbow]

The game economy has always been led by automation, since GS3.

The only difference between now and then is that more people have access to it.

[hot quarry]

this is simu we talking about..... something doesnt sell they delete it haha
lowering a price is for hippies

[red crystal]

Unless the claim event is open to f2p then there is a fee being paid in the game. $15/40 a month for a sub is a baked in price that seems to pass right on by in this discussion. Things being event price (USD) vs in game is a movable wall here since there is no tangible product. Saying this +25 sword is event and that one is a rolton drop is entirely subjective. What costs Simu money is losing customers too.

[cobalt jetty]

That's your fee to play the game, not the fee to access HESS items.

Again, it appears you're looking for free access to HESS and that's not how it works.

[red crystal]

Very true. But that small change of accessibility to automation has had profound impacts.

[red crystal]

You win today 😛

[cobalt jetty]

Bringing this back on topic ...

Treasure/Silvers/Loot should facilitate player to player transactions, primarily, or player to world (herbs, locksmith pool, etc) not Player to Simutronics transactions (Hess, Pay events, Etc).

[kind steeple]

It's a game and there are lots and lots of games.

This game has been around a long time. Folks come and go because people change and expectations change. New things are introduced and that changes perception of old things.

Gemstone is what it is. I tell myself I stick around for the rare days when there's an engaging storyline and roleplay but people like routine and I'm probably mostly still playing because of routine and nostalgia.

But if you're not content (not happy) it's time to to take a break. If you can't contemplate taking a break or quitting because of the time and money spent that never had any value other than what you mistakenly thought it did.

One day the game will shut down and that will be it. Enjoy it while it lasts or move on.

[inland cradle]

But I pay the company in the form of subscription every month, does that count?

[cobalt jetty]

Does that count, for what? You have access to the game don't you?

[kind steeple]

You get simucoins each month with a paid subscription to buy booklets from simucoin store

[cobalt jetty]

^^ checkmate, game over.

[red crystal]

You crack me up with these non sequiturs. It’s okay bro we agree on some things. But free and GS have never held the. Same space on my head. Only sustainable and reasonably priced. Have a great day.

[inland cradle]

I think surviving vs thriving are different topics here, DR no doubt brings in the extra $$. Not sure why having a silver purchase event box every month would cause the game to no longer survive. I mean if a big customer issue is the use of silvers and the event boxes are the biggest draw for silvers. Just add more interesting things to HESS and we still spend the $$ anyway.. and you get customer satisfaction as well since they can earn items with game currency.

[kind steeple]

Premium
525 simucoins per month x 12 months = 6300 simucoins / 100 simucoins per Duskruin Voucher = 63 Duskruin Vouchers x 300 Bloodscrip per voucher = 18,900 Bloodscrip per year
Platinum
725 simucoins per month x 12 months = 8700 simucoins / 100 simucoins per Duskruin Voucher = 87 Duskruin Vouchers x 300 Bloodscrip per voucher = 26,100 Bloodscrip per year```

If you took advantage of the two event boxes that was another 15,000 bloodscrip.

I've been vocal about pricing in such in the past but have moved on.  If I feel something is not priced correctly I simply do not purchase it.  The fact that other players DO purchase it does not mean my perception or opinion is wrong but it does mean that someone values the item or service far more highly than I do.

Each and every person has an opinion about everything in this game.  Some times there is a lot of consensus and other times there is not.

I like the communication with staff but I also think it has led to far to much trying to develop or change the game based on mob rule, general consensus, loudest people shouting this is the majority, etc.

We need to get back to staff having a vision and implementing that vision.

[blazing elbow]

Trying to say $1000 video game purchases are in line is peak Stockholm syndrome lmao

[cobalt jetty]

$1000 is a cheap video game purchase for some people and some games. Especially some of the mobile games. There are ships in EVE that cost hundreds of thousands I believe.

[kind steeple]

Have you seen what people spend on cars? Vegas? Expensive Restaurants? Movies? Any other form of hobby or entertainment? Collecting anything?

The human experience is unique to each person. You either figure out your joy or live with a bunch of anger and regret over poor decisions.

[hot quarry]

$1000 is definitely not cheap for games when there are so many AAA free to play online games out there. But definitely different business models when you have millions of players.

$1000 for a video game will never be cheap is what I am saying, some ppl may afford it easier than others buts lets not kid ourselves

[cobalt jetty]

If there are so many AAA f2p games that are better, I find it suspicious that you're here arguing about the price of things.

[red crystal]

Or even thousands. My sad concern for GS is we are hundreds of players with a few thousand accounts and I’d really like to add a 0 to that. I do love the game.

[blazing elbow]

I don't care what people spend on. But I'm not going to pretend this is normal or good. Of course I've spent the money, but there is no way I'm going to delude myself into saying it was a good idea or that the behavior should continue. People spend tens of thousands on heroin too, by your argument that means if I only spend thousands I am ok.

The issue is that the treasure system doesn't allow for sustainable growth without long term automation and the impetus to change it is directly tied to said monetization.

[hot quarry]

I do play those games, all the time 😉

[cobalt jetty]

report Zhagen just admitted to AFK scripting while raking in millions

Also, lol at calling pay event spending equal to heroin use.

[blazing elbow]

Saying outlandish stuff with more and more authority until the room becomes an echo chamber doesn't mean you've made a good point, it just means participating in the conversation has become tedious and frustrating

[red crystal]

Hence my KB transposing EQ and GS (thankfully it doesn’t also add in WOW and FFIV).

[hot quarry]

https://tenor.com/view/south-park-dragon-guitar-bipbop-gif-26578220
The typical GS experience.....

[kind steeple]

You have to find 66 people to buy a basic subscription of 14.95 to equal one $1000 simucoin purchase.

I work in a grocery store and spend a lot of time focused on price perception, merchandising, marketing, and hear infinite complaints about prices on a daily basis.

If you look at Gemstone like a grocery cart, Gemstone is all of the junk food and snacks that have very little nutritional value but is adding $100 to your total every week.

You absolutely do not need 3 different kinds of chips, 2 different cookies, fruit snacks, granola bars, candy, soda, isotonic drinks, energy drinks, etc

The vast majority of everything sold in the grocery store is ABSOLUTE waste.

[blazing elbow]

There is no doubt that from a monetization standpoint that getting the average transaction up is good for generating revenue short term.

But you can only milk a cow so much before the nips fall off

[red crystal]

I think Discord is unhealthy too 😉

[hot quarry]

We need GS discordcap

[kind steeple]

God bless Wyrom and other staff members for trying but they're trying to hard to appease the masses.

Pricing, paid events, development, etc. All of these things come up on repeat but players have been unwilling to do the one thing that sends a clear and resounding message:

Quit. Stop paying. If the majority is truly unhappy and stops allowing themselves to be milked so much.

That isn't going to happen though.

[hot quarry]

I just scarfed down a wasteful bag of chips, cost me $7 (~3mil silvers), 600 calories because of this stressful thread...... you guys are making me POORER and FATTER!

[red crystal]

https://tenor.com/view/doritos-bed-doritos-bed-doritos-girl-covered-with-chips-gif-9520953

[violet fjord]

Why is the comparison to illicit drugs, rather than to another hobby? All kinds of hobbies are expensive. Plenty of them much more so than GS

[flint wharf]

I do wonder if there should be a shift towards more end game content generation. To Ptolemy's point earlier.... once you hit a certain stage, the gains start to become really really minimal, and the only way to really see any kind of power spike is through gear. Which has a really high monetary gate.

The one thing I have always thought was missing was true end game content that requires coordinate efforts (like raids in other games) with a BIG reward.
It would be pretty cool if there was a way to establish some kind of arena setting, or raid setting where people can gather, go on an adventure and get some kind of item reward that is account attuned. Sometimes they get repeat items that just get trashed, sometimes they get the one thing they've been trying and trying for.

Maybe these are time gated (one reward per week, reset with Lumnis or something).... Without some kind of reward for playing, I can see how someone could get to Ptolemy's point of "why am I bothering?"

As long as the pay items are still a little bit better than the "end game content reward", people will still pay. It's like the difference of a 5 setting urglaes band vs. a 12 setting. Someone out there still wants to pay for that 12 setting....

[hot quarry]

Gotta do my GS dailies!..... but seriously that how lumnis brooch is haha

[kind steeple]

In summary, I think Gemstone has a lot of positive things that no other game offers.

I enjoy the text based aspect of the game. I enjoy the incredible amount of customization this affords my character. I enjoy the lore and the world and everything that has brought the game to life over the past 30 years or however long its been around. I enjoy engaging with other players and participating in storylines.

There are things I choose not to engage with such as some paid events that I feel offer little in the way of value. I would never purchase a paid currency pet for example. There are several mechanical scripts that I would never purchase because I believe they are horribly overpriced for what they provide. There are many HESS services I would not purchase for the same reason.

Each player needs to find what they enjoy and make their peace with what they do not. If you can't find any joy any longer then it may be time to make a change.

[hot quarry]

Longevity, strong community, and customization are really only unique competitive advantages GS has.... and nostolgia
They really dont have much else that is straight better than other modern games..... maybe story telling

[violet fjord]

For me, GS is infinitely more interesting than say collecting cards, or painted miniatures, because I can interact with in utilize the things I've invested in. I can craft them in a unique way that no other game offers. Even comparing it to gacha games is unnecessarily unflattering because those are purely gambling machines. I know what I'm getting when I spend in GS. Would I be happy if some of the prices came down? Obviously, but I also don't feel obligated to purchase anything.

[red crystal]

Only things with flare 😁

[violet fjord]

mostly things with flares, yes 😆

[kind steeple]

You have to spend some cash in some cases to do it but the truly mutant and non intended profession builds you can achieve are a highlight. Only in Gemstone can I be a healer in full plate that swings two swords that cast my profession spells in 1 second.

[slow zodiac]

10 mil over what period of time?

I'm curious if this example is exactly what's driving a lot of the comments this thread. We have a thread full of capped players saying the loot and treasure experience isn't all that great at cap, and the example used as a counterpoint is a level 27 creature being much more rewarding. That's actually consistent with what many people have said, low level alts seem to see much better rewards for hunting than the capped experience. What drives that is up for debate, people seem to focus on loot pressure despite a number of other factors playing a role. The question would be, is that intended? What drives that?

[buoyant rain]

I can make a million a day starting a brand new character, but that's not fun.

[kind steeple]

You dont need to start a new character, you just need to farm the same mobs and your capped character will make more due to better skinning and trading skills

[hot quarry]

You could probably have a fully automated script that hunts until lvl 15 then goes and rerolls into the same character with same gear and does it all over again...

[kind steeple]

A level 100 rogue or bard can farm any level mob that they do not earn experience from and still acquire locked boxes. They can then open those boxes to earn experience. They even have the option to just work the locksmith pool to earn experience.

Finding the hunting areas where the mobs drop boxes, alchemy reagents, gems, and skins is one sure fire way to hitting loot cap each month.

You'll definitely get a few script checks though as its kind of noticeable behavior if you're farming low level areas at level 100 for hours and hours a day each month.

[blazing elbow]

There was the guy selling level 20 characters by the dozens, if you remember. This was why he had so many.

[kind steeple]

Another method is to simply do a quick hunt in moonsedge or some other easily accessible capped area, you can fry in 5 to 10 min in most zones, and then you go farm the low level zone where you earn a bunch of silvers. Cycle to a different low level hunting area after each time you fry.

[slow zodiac]

it would also explain the pack of capped characters farming Thurfel's Cellar endlessly

[hot quarry]

That guy literally had 1 of every race/profession combo. He was legit business savvy. Respect the hustle.

[kind steeple]

There are a ton of methods that you can use to continue to earn experience at cap and farm the richest hunting areas. You definitely have to alter your behaviors as a player and you definitely have to spend hours and hours doing it per day.

[hot quarry]

I also think people are forgeting that the players who farm the best ALREADY spent thousands of dollars on gear to farm that well. So trying to compare yourself to them is futile.
"Why can't I make as much money as Melivn?" so I can buy my FIRST Hess item isn't a good way to think about it
While Melivn already has 20 HESS items

[kind steeple]

Whomever bought the 1435 spell in prime is hopefully using it to full potential.

Make a base in a hard to reach zone like the scatter. You can TP out and then be re-summoned from pretty much anywhere. Have a few looters that can symbol of return and bring em back as soon as they're done selling. Very little downtime from travel.

[flint wharf]

This.... this is what I love.... not only can you do that, but you can take the character you've made and switch paths at almost anytime too...
Then add in all the wildly cool effects and things you can "bring to life" the unique scripts, ambients, etc...

Swaying slightly, you hum an ancient hymnal that causes the shadows to gather to you.  Whispering in your ear, the voices of the dead lend their chorus to your hum and aid you in casting Heroism.

Unintentionally.... my character has become Xaden Riorson, and I think it's cool as hell. There's no other game out there I've been able to achieve this kind of "customization" in my character.
If you don't know how Xaden Riorson is - check out "Fourth Wing" - awesome book. Just be prepared for some saucy scenes...

[cobalt jetty]

There's a treasure penalty for hunting low level creatures as a capped character.

[kind steeple]

Which is easily overcome with loot boosts

Even without a loot boost, if you just switch from going to town and resting between hunts to going back out and farming a low level area while you clear your mind you'll increase your silver generation by a substantial amount.

[hot quarry]

Can people still make bank from Direwolf and Direbear skins even if they capped?
I remember my 50s alt was passing through there and each room was filled with red eyes.... like someone had killed 800 of them and just left the eyes

[cobalt jetty]

I can't say I've ever tried that, but it seems abusive lol

[jaunty gate]

This thread is a train wreck.

[kind steeple]

Absolutely. If you can skin them well and not damage the skins. A ranger absolutely cleans up due to their spell

[hot quarry]

I should try that with my ranger for 15 minutes and see how it compares with 15 minutes of HW....

[kind steeple]

The great stags that drop the antlers. You can be level 100 and generate thousands of silvers from every kill if you're skilled
Mastadonic leopards

[brave turtle]

In summary, everything costs too much, it should cost less, I should be able to get P2W items for hunting creatures, it should be easier to get silver, silver should be worth more, you have to automate to make silver, MA groups should be banned, Simu needs to turn a profit but I also want free stuff. I probably missed some.

[kind steeple]

Your flaring weapons with all the bells and whistles wreck skin values though or have the potential too.

The silver farmers weapon would be a flare that does pure health damage with no wounds.

[hot quarry]

Only the best GS threads reach 3K posts....
The best part is Tikba was scared to lower the chat duration from 5min to 1min 2 days ago...... oh boy was she right.

[kind steeple]

https://gswiki.play.net/List_of_skins

This list basically tells you where to farm silvers. Do the research and find the creatures or areas that have skins, boxes, alchemy reagents, gems, etc.

[hot quarry]

How much are Myklian skins these days, I heard they got nerfed but a recent auction item had the "no hand hurty on skin" ability
Back in 2000 that was the legendary way to get rich, but all elders told us youngling that is was hard to do because you have to crawl around the area and got the hand wounds so you needed to be an empath....

[blazing elbow]

They got nerfed hard like 20y ago. Used to make a pile of silvers on them.

[brittle spoke]

not correct. obskruul was made for fun. we don't have a quota or goals to create materials. no one told me to create it

[brave turtle]

Sure. My agreement with what I was quoting was much more the element where any worthwhile mechanical gear is only going to be sold for pay currencies - which is the case for obskruul too

[cobalt jetty]

Who set the price.

[hot quarry]

https://tenor.com/view/give-me-a-name-scoot-mcnairy-walt-breslin-narcos-tell-me-the-name-gif-17143698

[cobalt jetty]

I already know, I just wanted to see what the politically correct answer might be lol

[brittle spoke]

i don't speak for all GMs, but we do work on personal projects purely for the enjoyment and adding depth to the game. we're entitled to opinions and voicing them, but try to remember that wild speculation and assumptions could deter and stifle creativity. we want to bring you things that you'll enjoy. new things tend to be a lot of work to release

the original price had a miscalculation involved. it did come down though

[cobalt jetty]

Is that a miscalculation based upon some algorithm that determines price or some alternative meaning that I've already made up.

[brittle spoke]

i don't know how it's done

[hot quarry]

Seems to me like alot of high end pricing is a deterent. We only want to release X but if you pay these crazy prices you force our hand.

[cobalt jetty]

FWIW, I like the creativity.

[brittle spoke]

we're not out to get players. there's no ill intention behind pricing or putting everything behind a pay event. Duskruin is largely mechanical and a great time for us to release new things, so it's probably a natural side effect

[cobalt jetty]

Maybe the person who is setting the prices could explain how they determine the prices. Understanding why may help to calm the mob angry about pricing.

[brittle spoke]

not my call or a bear i want to poke!

[hot quarry]

https://tenor.com/view/talos-talosian-star-trem-star-trek-big-head-gif-12496470
this guys ^

[stiff thistle]

Tag him! I dare you! 😉

[inner socket]

If there was ever a system that forced me to move Stormy to the Nations or Teras that would be when it's time to move on. I have zero desire to be in those spaces.

[inner socket]

The problem here is the actions we are discussing are in large part caused by players who are not treating the game like a mlultiplayer game, but instead have in my opinion gamed the system to create a single player instance for themselves where they do not need not seek out other players. So this is a hard no for me.

[inner socket]

Allowed to should never have morphed into 'have to', and some of us do not want to play this game automated. Why is that a bad thing? Why should that determine if I am still viable in a game where scripting was not the design idea?

[cobalt jetty]

You are viable, and you don't have to.

[ashen yew]

I KNOW

Also the valuable takeaway from this thread is the underhunting loot penalty needs to be increased and not be able to be overridden by boosts

[kind steeple]

If there was a shop that was open 24/7 year round that sold a generic version of all of the LIMITED mechanical and fluff items in the game I think it would solve a lot of issues.

The shop would allow 1 purchase per player per year for basic subscriptions, 2 for premium.

The shop would accept silvers or any other paid event currency. Silvers would be valued at the same rate used to determine claim event box values.

What is sorely needed in this game is a pathway, however long it may be even if that pathway is years, to work towards a desired item goal for all players. This pathway doesn't even really exist for current paid events due to the limited nature of many offerings that may be removed after 1 or 2 years despite these items costing thousands of dollars in some cases and being out of the reach of most players. Some players would save and save and save if there was a guarantee of if I save this amount for this length of time I will 100% be able to purchase what I want when I want it.

[ashen yew]

That’s an interaction I didn’t think of hahaha

[kind steeple]

Not possible because skins and alchemy reagents are not affected by it. You can crank out silvers independent of loot boosts if you know the valuable skins and simply rotate hunting grounds regularly.

[ashen yew]

Good to know!

That should also be prevented haha

[hot quarry]

I feel like if that was abused enough Estilid would have nerfed it in the original loot cap implementation. I think/hope ppl dont do that often....

[kind steeple]

This is why most games simply prevent you from earning anything from a creature you cannot gain experience from.

Unfortunately skins and alchemy are tied into many crafting systems so the only real fix is to code them to have zero value if acquired by a player that cannot learn from the mob.

  AS: +563 vs DS: +188 with AvD: +13 + d100 roll: +100 = +488
   ... and hit for 69 points of damage!
   Incredible shot to the eye penetrates deep into skull!
The mastodonic leopard lets out a final caterwaul and dies.```

```You ask Ragnoz to appraise a spotted leopard pelt.
Ragnoz examines the leopard pelt quickly and says, "I'd say it's worth about oh... I'll pay you 2,154 silvers for it."```

Get a monk to provoke, go to town farming.  When the value drops move somewhere else.

Ragnoz examines the raptor feathers quickly and says, "I'd say it's worth about oh... I'll pay you 1,113 silvers for it."```

[cobalt jetty]

Now show them the good areas.

[kind steeple]

The dwarven clerk examines the fog beetle carapace quickly, nods and whispers, "I'm willing to offer you about, hmmm... I'll pay you 1,755 silvers for it."

The pawnbroker takes your troll tooth, glances at it briefly, then hands you 319 silver coins.```
```You ask the furrier if he would like to buy a troll knuckle.
The dwarven clerk takes the item, gives it a careful glance, then hands you 171 silvers.```

Trolls are great because of the skin, alchemy, occassional box and gems.  It adds up when you can mow them down.
Most of the great zones are between level 10 - 40.

As old as the game is staff is definitely aware of this issue. It is simply such a huge mess to untangle because of how the various systems interact

Its not like you can go farm a low level zone for an hour a day and suddenly be rich though.

Fry in a capped zone for 5 - 10 min, go farm a low zone for 20 - 30 min while you absorb exp, cycle between 3 or 5 low zones after each time you sell, rinse and repeat without stopping at all for 10 hours a day for 30 days. Now you'll hit loot cap.

Getting expensive game currency stuff without paying cash has always required a huge time sink. If you don't have cash or time you're out of luck which has always been the case in my opinion in all games.

[ashen yew]

No RMT discussion

[hot quarry]

https://tenor.com/view/thumbs-down-you-adam-sandler-gif-14612875

[kind steeple]

And those values I posted are with zero trading skill on my capped empath

[lethal hull]

well...I certainly didn't know that you could get skin values no matter the level of critter. Someone pinged me and thought I would find this amusing. More confirmation I'm just an idiot for trying to skin 110-114th level creatures for 300-700 silver

[unkempt chasm]

Can tell it’s one of those days it’ll take me like 20 minutes to respond and catch up.

[ashen yew]

there's nothing interesting to respond to at this point, we're retreading ground, except for the detailed information on how to exploit low level skins hahaha

[bright zenith]

Is it fair to say PvEvP is a form of PvP and entirely not in the vein of CvC?

[unkempt chasm]

It makes a lot of sense, to me at least, to take things that have lots of upgrades to them and hook the masses with entry level items. ```
This might unintentionally exacerbate issues mentioned throughout the thread. Statistically, the overwhelming majority would go to the hardcore grinders, reigniting "the rich get richer" criticisms as they'd need to pay neither cash nor even silver to get the good stuff.

```[Ptolemy]
I don't pick my bard in the pool unless I can stare at the screen because I don't want to get script checked and fail. I just feel like I'm playing a different game```
It's the same game. Anybody can script, nobody can AFK script.

```[Ptolemy]
If I want to learn a language, I need to wait for them to release a chance (a chance) at a language cuff. [...] If I want to get [a Middle Class Property]...I have to hope they release again.```
This is emblematic of the vast gulf between how GS treats rare mechanical items and how it treats rare fluff items. It *is* a sticking point to me and one I very much dislike, but I don't see it as related to the treasure system at all.

```[Yndrael]
they're not going to sell anything worthwhile for silvers ever again (setting aside CLAIM EVENT)```
Charms, enhancive reroller.

```[Yndrael]
It's been that way for years now, outside of occasional silver auctions (which were awesome, and I hope we get those again)```
We had three of them in 2023, one in 2022, one in 2020, one in 2019, CCF in 2018, and one in 2016. They're not even that occasional!

```[Barble]
Is DR and EG priced for  dozen big spenders but not intended for an average consumer player? ```
Both in 2021 and 2023, Wyrom's posted that median spends are around $50. The vast majority of pay event shops are affordable for this level of spending.



(...I obviously still have way more ground to cover...)

[ashen yew]

again I feel like the concept of "PvEvP" is literally fundamental to the game. when I enter a room in a hunting area and a player is in that room, that's PvEvP. should we ban players entering hunting areas because they are laying claim to a limited resource and in that way impinging on all other players?

the Sealand approach to gemstone is pretty funny but ultimately, I think, facile

[bright zenith]

I would argue that “room ownership” as a concept is cultural not mechanical, and following hunting etiquette is very much CvC.

Is there any argument that loot pressure mechanics could, in any way, be construed as a conflict between characters?

[ashen yew]

I don't think loot pressure mechanics are a conflict

[brave turtle]

When Charms/Gemstones and Enhancive Reroller are deployed that's one thing but as of present-day, they are not selling things of mechanical value for silvers 😛

[violet fjord]

This is emblematic of the vast gulf between how GS treats rare mechanical items and how it treats rare fluff items. It is a sticking point to me and one I very much dislike, but I don't see it as related to the treasure system at all.
I go back and forth on this one. Mostly I agree, but other times I wonder why the "burden" of financially supporting the game should lie primarily the mechanically inclined. Of course it's not that simple, and I mostly err on the side of wanting to facilitate RP in the best way possible. But also I think it's okay to expect fluff to be expensive, sometimes.

[kind steeple]

I think something like a language device should be cheap for learning 1 extra language and get very expensive to unlock more tiers to learn additional languages AND be able to hear and speak them at the same time.

My hill to die on is pets. Compared to all of the crafting and cooking items that allow players to create so many things I don't get how those things are so cheap and pets are so expensive.

[ashen yew]

the last time they did a silver auction they A) generated the usual complaints and ill feelings that attend every auction as people show up who are unaware that they are deeply fundamentally priced out of auctions and B) crashed the entire game horribly to the point that they considered hacking it by using a suggestion I made as a joke to set all the clocks back 24 hours

I am unconvinced they should do a lot more

[unkempt chasm]

Actually, amazingly enough, I guess I'm done with catchup since the several hours after the point where I left off were mostly full of thoughtful discussion. Nice job, all! 🎉

[kind steeple]

I also think arcane symbols should be expanded to allow you to learn additional languages.

[inner socket]

This is our main point of disagreement. It absolutely feels like a conflict for me. And I don't know how to get past that disagreement. And that seems like the main disagreement between myself and staff too, and it's not surmountable because 'automate' is the response and that's not happening for me. Because at that point I don't feel like I'm playing the game anymore. Then the computer is just playing itself after I hit a button. No thanks. I don't need Midjourney GS.

[unkempt chasm]

Maybe my point wasn't clear since I shortened it for length purposes. I agree that rare fluff should be expensive, but it should at least be obtainable at all. Tons of the really valuable fluff only ever goes out via auctions, raffles (including Troves), and GHOUL, with no regularly offered acquisition path via spending unless a current owner resells on the secondary market.

Examples: many types of pets, elemental gowns, language earcuffs, properties, etc. You can get almost anything mechanical that you want in unlimited quantities, though!

[ashen yew]

I agree that that is the fundamental philosophical disagreement here

[ashen yew]

on this topic I would be interested in knowing how the chase pet shop is doing

[opal canopy]

I think the philosophical issue is whether or not the majority of the playerbase should suffer because of loot pressure, in order to ostensibly try to rein in the top 1% generators of silver. But it isn't that simple, as Wyrom stated his goal was not to increase the amount of silver generated by the majority. Which kind of invalidates the entire discussion of loot pressure, even though I'd argue it's the single worst change to the game that's ever been done.

And as Leafiara said, that's coming from a person who can easily fight in the pits, benefits from loot pressure, and could easily meet the lootcap if I wanted to.

[kind steeple]

The only explanation is that staff owns the scripts. Whether its fluff or mechanical its a script/code that a staff member wrote and someone is the gatekeeper.

The folks that own the mechanical stuff have no problem putting there stuff out there. The folks that own the fluff stuff don't.

[ashen yew]

I don't really take as proven the premise that the majority of the playerbase is suffering from loot pressure

[violet fjord]

It's entirely possible I missed it, but where is "automate" being suggested? Certainly it's easy to recognize the benefits of automation in a general sense, but I haven't seen anyone outright say that it's a necessary step in order to climb the treasure scale.

[kind steeple]

No single player is hitting loot cap without putting in 10 hours a day by my reckoning.

No player is manually hunting that many hours a day to hit loot cap.

[ashen yew]

I think that is basically a big part of the issue with this discussion as well, really -- lots of negative outcomes or anecdotes are characterized as being a consequence of loot pressure. obviously if it were creating so many bad experiences it would be crazy not to remove it. but I don't know that those characterizations are accurate. in several cases I am pretty sure they are not accurate

[violet fjord]

Nobody is expected to hit loot cap. It's the exception, not the measure

[unkempt chasm]

If you're hunting only bandits, OTF, and Nelemar at cap, you're suffering from loot pressure. Also, don't do that. 😛

But it is strange to me that these hunters aren't the ones in here arguing so fervently against loot pressure.

[kind steeple]

I agree entirely. I don't play to hit loot cap and probably average 10 mil a month.

The players that are pricing out everyone else at auctions and such are either putting in a ton of hours or acquiring currency by other avenues.

I just think its being glossed over how many hours the players acquiring all this silver wealth are really putting in or how many accounts they're running to pool resources.

[ashen yew]

the people who hunt OTF 24/7 probably don't come to discord at all!

they exist in a blissful eternal peace

[violet fjord]

I guess my point is that simply typing ";bigshot" doesn't make you rich. There are still a lot of choices on top of that necessary to bring home the bacon. Hunting the right targets, at the right time. Having the ancillary skills to maximize the time spent hunting (skinning, etc). And most importantly, spending a lot of time playing. I automate a significant amount of my play, and I am certainly not swimming in a pool of silver - because I don't prioritize a lot of those things I mentioned except playing a lot of hours. That's the only reason I have anything in the bank. Also selling player services is a massive component of wealth that I take very little part in

[flint wharf]

Not so sure I agree that introducing baseoff the shelf level DR items to enter the treasure system would cause the "rich would get richer"... we've seen it now with core DR items. Most of them sell for 1/2 the off the shelf sticker price. I imagine if they were found in the wild, something that might be 10k at DR would sell for 1m in the market.

I think it turns into a gateway for folks on nicer items, letting people play around with things and plan better for what they want to invest in for the long haul.

Sadly, all of this is just hypothetical, so there's no way for either of us to know how it would play it unless it actually happened! 🙃

*Edit: Just to be clear, I'm talking low cost items that don't really influence DR Spend anyways... like a 1k sigil staff.

[violet fjord]

Oh, and also merchanting. I suck at that too.

[flint wharf]

These rare fluff items, at least to me, would be a great reward style offering for some kind of end game content that is time gated (can be done once a week or something, with random rewards that are character attuned).

Want that really cool RP troll sheath that has limited to no mechanical value? Cool... Get a crew together to do the troll emperor raid every week till you land it!

[unkempt chasm]

One thing that occurs to me as we discuss, again, whether loot pressure is a net positive or negative... I'd absolutely love if, just as a one-off, Wyrom (or Auchand or anyone else) came here and gave the current stats for one randomly selected creature per capped hunting ground.

By "the current stats," I mean what we see in this example from the Treasure System saved posts on the wiki:
https://gswiki.play.net/Treasure_system/saved_posts

[...]
[Base treasure level: 5]
[Adjusted treasure level: 8]```
Just pick out a random triton at level 98 or above, some Sanctum thing that isn't a lurk (those are only level 95), etc. for a snapshot of where they happen to stand right now. Might not be the same tomorrow or in a month, but just one glimpse of one moment in time!

[kind steeple]

Focusing on hunting and treasure generation is not going to fix the main issues folks are upset about.

That's only the focus because staff really only releases stuff for silvers or paid currency which can be acquired via hunting and treasure generation.

The legendary feeder at least attempted to offer a different avenue of release outside of spending huge sums of silver or paid currency to acquire rare items.

What the game needs is more avenues of release of items that DOES NOT relate to hunting, treasure generation, or paid currency.

[opal canopy]

There's different people arguing for different things, as one would expect. Lots of people hate the notion of a loot cap, (probably) because they're very silver motivated. I have no problem whatsoever with the existence of a loot cap - even if it were 10x harsher than it is now.

Loot pressure, though, is full of perverse incentives for an MMO. It rewards people who want to maximize silver output, and penalizes people who want to stick to a given area for social reasons, roleplaying reasons, etc. Maybe some of us want to sit in a vacant wasteland where they make the most silvers, but I don't, and the limits on the bonuses from loot pressure don't accomplish their ostensible goal in making them attractive enough for players to visit (like the F'Eyrie, in Teras).

Treasure in capped gameplay shouldn't be radically different (and worse) than the leveling experience. But it is, because of loot pressure.

[flint wharf]

Like.... Time gated End Game content with rewards.... I'm going to keep preachin for this 🙂 Things that aren't "legendary tier" but would be rewarding and cool drops.
Make it time gated so someone can't just farm a bajillion of them and just fuels the haves vs. have nots situation worse

[kind steeple]

Whether this is premium points, years of paid subscription, roleplay, etc something needs to give.

The players that will never ever be able to put in as many hours, or farm as efficiently as the players that embrace automation, or participate in the secondary market should have some kind of access to mechanical and fluff items independent of other players.

[kind steeple]

You can offer anything and everything if you simply make it character bound.

Every paid subscription gets simucoins. Create a voucher that sells for 5,000 simucoins.

Every character can redeem 1 voucher per year.

This voucher would allow any character to get 1 item per year from a shop that offers pre-made items such as pets, language devices, unique materials (somnis, starsong, ghezyte gear), ice cream churns, etc. Every thing is pre-made and you just grab it. Once per year a player can choose anything they want and its bound to that character.

Would this take a whole lot of time to code and implement sure, but I think this is the only real way to fix this issue of the haves and have nots.

It would take far far longer to make any kind of meaningful improvement to hunting and the treasure system and avoid an untold number of arguements about whether the changes were good or not.

[blazing elbow]

You could just throw a pile of 1 charge super enhancives in the system. Fun little boosts that are actually meaningful like a +50 edged, crumbly, can't be charged or permed like the NATA stuff

[short marten]

I suppose I'll chime in since OSA/Bandits/Reim are my primary methods of hunting. I've long given up on being able to hunt silver at a rate that is competitive. I'm never going to be able to be available to hunt the right areas, for the right duration to generate enough silvers to say compete with the amount already in possession of others, or, at the rate that others are farming it. Also, why do I need to? I can just as easily turn my money to booklets for BS for the items I want. There's very little incentive to engage in this chase.

So I just focus on XP and (mostly) sell/trade player services to friends or MHO members at a ridiculous discount.

[unkempt chasm]

I mostly hunt bandits myself, so I don’t follow my own advice. I just have the OCD need to get every character to the point of feeling they no longer benefit from normal exp and can go 100% ATPs, for which bandits are the best! Terrible for silvers, though. 😄

[lethal hull]

This is the best comment ive seen in this thread

[kind steeple]

I think hunting and the treasure systems are fine as is. It greatly rewards those that optimize for it and spend a large amount of time engaging with it. Anyone hitting soft cap each month or generating hundreds of millions of silver via multi accounting should mostly be ignored because, while the system allows this behavior, the game should not go out of its way to reward it more than what is currently available.

The issue with mechanical items and why they should be primarily offered via hunting and treasure system either as direct rewards or to be purchased via silvers at auction or paid event currency is because acquiring ever greater mechanical items makes it easier and easier to generate more silver wealth. A warrior with SK506 and SM506 is going to have a huge advantage over every other player in the game that does not have such. Whatever items reduce your time to kill and reduce your downtime is going to provide advantages over everyone else every single time. It is not fair or equal by any means.

The real angst from players, myself included, is that certain purely FLUFF items gated via hunting and the treasure system either by auctions or paid event currency. The player that chooses to spend their silvers or paid currency on non-mechanical items is always going to be behind the players that choose to focus on mechanical upgrades.

Gemstone isn't really pay2win because so many things are limited regardless of your willingness to pay cash. So many things at the HESS used to be limited and that has really only recently changed. I'm not sure if the limits are or were there simply because of the human component required to do these things and I imagine working on redemptions being not exactly fun and more like working a call center.

[unkempt chasm]

You glance down to see a bundle of valravn plumes in your right hand and a bundle of valravn plumes in your left hand.
>appr my plumes
You turn the valravn plumes over in your hands, meticulously inspecting for flaws.  You estimate that of the 10 plumes in your bundle, all of them are magnificent quality.
You estimate that the total value of your valravn plumes is approximately 21600 silvers.
>appr my other plumes
You turn the valravn plumes over in your hands, meticulously inspecting for flaws.  You estimate that of the 10 plumes in your bundle, all of them are magnificent quality.
You estimate that the total value of your valravn plumes is approximately 22200 silvers.```
Unless these plumes are getting super pressured when I'm not playing, they don't seem bad for now. I've seen them get down to ~1100 on average for me before, but I just got 60 of these over the past hour and these are typical results.

These come from a 2x FA and 2x Survival sorcerer, so nothing's going on here like a 3x FA empath or a 3x Survival ranger with high Blessings for 604 either. This is super high value! By comparison, the undansormrs that happened to wander into the area gave...
```You turn the undansormr scales over in your hands, meticulously inspecting for flaws.  You estimate that of the 5 scales in your bundle, all of them are magnificent quality.
You estimate that the total value of your undansormr scales is approximately 18100 silvers.```
...which is a bit under twice as good for skin value, but undansormrs don't drop boxes nor gems, so valravns are amazing right now if silver is someone's goal!

[hot quarry]

15 minutes 1 man SoS (I was the only one there from what I could tell)
total loot 373,000
loose silver 41,000
gems 120,000
other items 42,000
skins 0
boxes 170,000
(Notes: Obviously no skins hurts but boxes far out performed HW pits with many boxes having 4-5k loose silvers each plus I even found 1 with 22K. Gems from SoS seemed to under perform HW in value per gem. Big difference in kill speed for SoS, 2 seconds per critter in SoS vs. probably 5 in HW)

[hot quarry]

Just tried Confluence and came away with a pitiful amount of gems for like ~80K in 15 minutes, how is confluence rich again?

[unkempt chasm]

The weird idiosyncrasies of the Confluence's daily cap mechanic make it such that it better either be your first hunt of the day or not at all.

[willow plaza]

I mean, I've tried about half a dozen times to steer the conversation in more constructive directions, presented like a dozen non-silver-based ideas to make loot more engaging and exciting, and have been trying to encourage creative concepts folks are coming up with. But, we keep rehashing loot pressure. There's a fundamental disagreement on that topic (and that's fine, it's a heated topic), but no one has the code, it's all extrapolated from partial information and player experience. Without hard numbers my opinion about it isn't going to be changed, so to continue that part of the conversation is fruitless, repetitive, and frustrating.

[willow plaza]

"What the game needs is more avenues of release of items that DOES NOT relate to hunting, treasure generation, or paid currency."

What would this look like to you? If not buying an item with silver or scrip, or gaining an item as reward for engagement in the game (hunting/bounties), then what? There are raffles at events (which offset the generated wealth factor a bit), I feel like artisan and player services sort of fall in to this classification, but I'm interested to hear more of what this statement means to you and what ideas you have that would help make that a reality.

[fair loom]

A more robust crafting system could be one avenue for this.
With enough (significant) collected resources, time, and energy one could create items on par with some of the higher end items sold at pay events.

[willow plaza]

I wholeheartedly agree with this in every way. It's also a good moment to throw kudos for the recent new additions of items that help bolster this and make the artisan systems more robust. Examples: the Fullmetal Crucible was a game changer for forging by opening up materials that were once raffled once or twice a year, and all the forging love from the blacksmith companions, gravers, gouges, etc. The player service tools (books and monocles were awesome too), and all of it was priced towards the budget of a casual player. I agree with this, those systems need to be made more robust, and I really appreciate how staff has been finding creative ways to do that outside of modifying the base system. I'd love to see more of that!

[flint wharf]

Separate topic, but Let’s get some shield & armor crafting opened up. Give those warriors some love.

[hot quarry]

I mean ALL of the stuff that was pinned in this thread when it created ALL sounds great, better than what we have so far..... we have twisted this thread alot

Auchand posted those ideas like 2.5 months ago.... I guess we could comment more on those or have the Envoys add more.

[willow plaza]

I think you are right. Mulling over new ideas, even if just throwing them out there as loose concepts, is bound to be more constructive, and I think more along the lines of what the thread intended. It's easy to get sucked into debate, though, especially on topics people feel passionately about.

When it comes to the topic of resources as treasure, I feel like there has been some real push towards the concept over the years, so it's not a foreign concept, I just feel like it only ever had limited implementation. Alchemy drops, in a vague way: collectables system, and some of the area-specific rare drops that can be used to unlock features/access of areas. Leaning into that in a broader sense might lend a lot to the experience of loot.
Edit: I feel like this might be what the Charms/Gemstones system will be?

[lethal hull]

We mean the hidden mechanic that no one tells you? I wasted a gajillion loot boosts in confluence.

[fair loom]

I play Gemstone and I don't have any current MMORPG subscriptions but... one of my favorite things from World of Warcraft was the engineering crafting system.

[lethal hull]

0% chance they do this imo

[fair loom]

Apparently, in the confluence, you are cut off after about 500k loot earned in a day (from anywhere).

[lethal hull]

Yup. Another mechanic meant to stop a tiny sliver of players from abusing the system at the expense of all. To this day i dont believe this is documented anywhere

[fair loom]

So you are saying there is a chance!

[willow plaza]

If someone can detail it for me, I will add it to the wiki.

[lethal hull]

I think if staff make changes, staff should document the changes.

[fair loom]

My information is second hand but that is how I understand it to be (and it seems to be directionally accurate from my experience).

[willow plaza]

I'll do so discord search and see what all info I can find. I'll just add a snippet to the Confluence page with a note that the information is somewhat conjectural, to provide a platform for anyone with more details to edit.

[bright zenith]

#mechanics message

[fair loom]

We have loot caps on the loot caps!

[hot quarry]

ok, I will try it tomorrow but if im not getting 500k in 15-20 minutes then it sucks!

[inner socket]

And instruments for bards. Let my toon make mandolins!

[blazing elbow]

https://tenor.com/view/mandolin-gif-10322181

[hot quarry]

Can we just get charms (Gemstones?) rolling first and then worry about the other loot....
And hopefully its not like, you found 1 charm in 3 months and you get +5 ranks of swimming

[lethal hull]

Id like to see charms asap....but you'll understand my concern at how they are priced.

+1 to an enhancive, right now is, is $119

[hot quarry]

Hopefully its way cooler than enhancives..... 5% chance to double swing, additional 5% EBP when in a room with 4+ critters....

[cobalt jetty]

I would expect them to be expensive adds. It's been marketed as a silver drain to quell the outrage of silvers have no value

[hot quarry]

I could see something like a charm that gives you 1-5% chance to double swing cost 6 months of soft cap, 90-100m? (probably scaling tier cost) Do you think it would to be HESS level? 400-500m?

Also I wonder if the charms should degrade over time

[kind steeple]

#1190341191074594846 message

Already detailed it

[hot quarry]

yeah, they def not giving us attuned starsong/somnis gear for 5000 simucoins. The RP stuff maybe. Seasonal shop with pre-made items is always a cool idea if you can put popular items in it. But that is basically what DR/EG are so....

[kind steeple]

But then you have to buy a script add

I'm very much a fan of give players an avenue to get something great cheaply and then they're hooked and it's a slippery slope to spending more and more cause now they got the one thing and want more things

It definitely shuts down the arguments that have come about though with player perceptions being things are to limited, overpriced, and not accessible to everyone

[jaunty gate]

Could be cool if there were player services that created mechanically scripted items. Imagine a system where the "OTS" tier that players make isn't really all that great (or maybe literally nothing), but the unlocks purchases through DR/EG/whatever are worth it. Simu still makes money from the unlocks, players get to have fun making/using their stuff.

[oblique path]

I think generally things are priced based on some idea of how beneficial they are perceived from a mechanical standpoint at their highest level (think rotflare with 171 necro lore). I also think the price is a form of scarcity as well, Keeping up with players that have been playing for decades or spending dollars for simucoins is not something a casual player can or should do. The floor for gear has dramatically increased as has the ceiling. With very little time playing the game you can buy gear that was coveted or sold as auction quality years ago. Keeping up with the lastest scripts and items is like buying a new PC every month, and only sustainable by those players with enough disposable ( I hope ) income

More towards this topic of improvements, and in line with loot pressure, I thought the loot boost to random zones sounded neat.

[willow plaza]

Oh! That got lost in the flurry of messages, I think, or I would have replied! I think that's an interesting concept: sort of like premium perks, but geared towards all subscribers. One of the things I like about the current set up is that between giftbox entries for events and monthly simucoin bonuses for subscribers, you can participate and pretty much gain access to the lower tier (which makes up 90% of items) available at festivals. Essentially you can participate and get some really fun stuff from every feistval with no more investment than your subscription. I don't feel like that get's enough attention. Of course, that's not access to higher tier equipment being reflected in your idea, but the underlying concept exists and could be built upon.

[willow plaza]

Yep. I think that became even more so when scrip value was normalized. Those sort of are the "seasonal shops" that offer popular items. What could be fun would be adding semi-rare drops to the treasure system while a festival is running - items that could be turned in an used for (something) during that festival. Carried over from year to year it both promotes the festival and adds some fun seasonal drops to regular loot.

[willow plaza]

I kind of also love the flip-side of that idea of making player unlockable items. Instruments that can be improved or made zesty by bards. Relics and holy symbols that can be unlocked and themed by priests (based on deity) - [already sort of a thing, I know, just framing a concept], gambling gear for rogues, etc. Would be a fun way to use low-level service points or for those who just are not interested in optimizing their skills for player services. Even more fun if fodder/drops from loot could be utilized by players to further customize those.

[unkempt chasm]

Finally circling back to answering my own question a few days ago about any individual person's ideal treasure system...

• Duskruin-style opt-in system to tailor loot more toward what you want
• Bounty point expansion: make it possible to add and/or reroll enhancives with bounty points, add new things for bounty points in the 2m to 5m range
• Add boon creatures everywhere or almost everywhere (might be too much in Ascension grounds)
• Boost collectible drop rate to 50-100 times what it is now
• More temporary buffs in the vein of any of the Ascension hunting grounds (Hinterwilds alchemist, Moonsedge organ, Hive jelly), except throughout the entire game
• Derive loot pressure from something objective, instead of assumptive as it is now, by running thousands of simulations to determine the actual creature difficulty against that area's expected baseline of exp and gear for each profession (lest this sound insane to people who don't frequent #mechanics, Naijin used to run thousands of simulations to determine how certain weapon bases compared to others and it didn't seem to take all that long with whatever GM tools he had)

[green elbow]

I would love to choose lootcap to give me the same # of gems until I run out of loot, just less valuable ones closer to cap.

[fair loom]

Boost collectible drop rate to 50-100 times what it is now

This seems... extreme.

[unkempt chasm]

Not relative to the achievements it isn't!

[fair loom]

I guess it depends on what you are hunting? Some areas / creatures are dropping one every few critters already.
Though I do see them way more frequently pre-cap.

[unkempt chasm]

Sure. Those are lower end areas and areas with boon creatures. At cap, I find more like one per 100 creatures. 🤣

Edit: If even that, to be honest. Last night I collected 63 Hinterwilds boxes (which also means several times more total creatures killed than that) and found 3 collectibles. And that was a comparatively good run with major loot boost running!

[fair loom]

Maybe they just need to put some rails around the current drop chances (on the high and low end)

[unkempt chasm]

Yeah, that might suffice.

[fair loom]

Honestly that's my biggest gripe with loot pressure as well. The extreme end (at least on the low end) is just overkill. Probably similar thinking that went into loot pressure went into collectible pressure as well.
(And the high end of loot pressure can be pretty insane as well) I was getting an emerald or diamond every 2nd or 3rd critter for a week in a pre-cap area at one time.

Add boon creatures everywhere or almost everywhere (might be too much in Ascension grounds)

I would LOVE to see this (even in Ascension areas).

[ashen yew]

ascension areas should have boon creatures that apply boons to other creatures if you don't kill them

[unkempt chasm]

Boon creatures are amazing. Super underutilized system.

[ashen yew]

I like a lot of leafiara's ideas although I would fundamentally redesign collectibles myself and I would also improve bonus loot from boons to actually just be a whole second loot or something like that

[cobalt jetty]

Hate boon creatures

[ashen yew]

also as I've said I would turn the vast majority of low-quality loot items into just silver or maybe some kind of other currency redeemable for like small statues and things

[unkempt chasm]

I'll admit that I'm heavily biased in favor of them doing as little in the way of large scale overhauls and brand new systems as possible since I'd rather other things be worked on, given the world of finite resources. 😂

Meanwhile, other people want new things that are like five times as complex as mining and smelting even though mining and smelting themselves never got finished.

[ashen yew]

and I would support viciously nerfing pre capped loot through whatever means are necessary to ensure that hunting pre cap is not the best way to make money

[fair loom]

Now I love them even just a little bit more. :p

[cobalt jetty]

These are good in theory. But how many people actually want/need an instrument to be made zesty. How many people want/use a holy symbol/relic. I think these are too "small scale" for this loot situation.

[brave turtle]

I think there needs to be level-based minimum loot for kills. You should always get more loot killing a level 100 than level 40

[unkempt chasm]

This is why the first item on my latest list is opt-in. I'd have no interest in most things suggested throughout the thread. But, conversely, I assume that a lot of people would have no interest in more collectibles even though I'd love them.

[cobalt jetty]

Speaking on your last point. Difficulty varies based upon profession, build, etc. Let's say you're an Empath, fighting Golems, should you have negative 1000 loot pressure if you actually kill one? What if you're an empath using a weapon?

Also, I wouldn't trust anything Naijin did as being valid without bias.

[unkempt chasm]

Oh, I wouldn't make it that precise. Just determine the creature's average difficulty against all professions and make that the loot pressure benchmark.

But it is true that things like magic immune creatures would throw a wrench in this... maybe it could be derived from only how deadly the creature is to players without consideration for the other way around. 🤔

Edit: I guess the other way around does have to be considered, though, for stupidly tanky creatures where their durability is the primary challenge. Hmm.

[cobalt jetty]

I think collectibles are probably one of the better solutions. Tradeable, high quantity things. Because you have to account for the 15 minute hunter and the 12 hour hunter.

[ashen yew]

the one point I don't support is that I still don't think changing loot pressure would have any significant benefits haha. loot pressure is currently objective in that it is objectively determined by the actual behavior of players. I don't see how simulations would be more objective; as your later reconsiderations demonstrate, they would intrinsically be artificial

[cobalt jetty]

There are low quality, low value gems. That's what the little guys should be finding.

Star diopsides, not uncut diamonds.

[unkempt chasm]

Even the saved treasure posts acknowledge that loot pressure in its current form assumes that player behavior is strongly correlated to difficulty. I think there are far too many other factors for that assumption to be objective, though, like the accessibility of an area (entry/exit mechanics) and its geographical location.

[fair loom]

I agree they shouldn't be attempting to determine a (Edit: Loot) level based on point in time simulations or similar; they won't hold up over time.

Loot pressure is fine in general; it just really, really, really stinks at the extremes.

[unkempt chasm]

Just as an example, loot pressure in the Bowels often makes it really bad. Despite the area being notoriously difficult to the point that people vouch for just OSAing and banditing to avoid it, it's in the vicinity of the Landing and is also one of very few hunting grounds at all in that level range, so it sees a lot of players go through.

[cobalt jetty]

If all values of gems and skins were reduced by 90%, and the loot cap is lowered to 10m. And loot was capped by level bands (0-10 ... 90-100)). Loot pressure would no longer be needed.

[fair loom]

Similarly - if we just gave 1 silver per level per kill, loot pressure would no longer be needed; mostly because there wouldn't be any players though.

[unkempt chasm]

I don't think the 90% reduction is absurd at all. Not necessarily sure it's the way I'd go because of the perception complaints that would ensue, but there was a time when the silver total in the entire game was only 10% of what it is now and things were fine!

[fair loom]

Can we reduce everyone's bank account by 90% at the same time?

[unkempt chasm]

I'm pretty sure that's included in his proposal, yes. Okay, never mind!

[cobalt jetty]

No. But they can offer things to reduce their balance. (Resetting was also an option, but existing wealth deserves something.)

[ashen yew]

you've failed to consider the source!