The lady escorted the dogs that the girl wanted. -> Die Frau eskotierte/führte die Hunde/Katzen, die das Mädchen (haben) wollte.
#questions-2
glossy marsh
glossy marsh
I've included both. ^^
glossy marsh
Sie leitete mich, for example, would be She lead me in the sense of leadership and guidance instead of an escort.
Sie führte mich would be She escorted me in the sense of showing me the way.
buoyant coral
ach so vielen dank!
hearty blaze
Is "Schönen Tag noch" Like saying "have a nice day"? On Memrise this is a flashcard, but it sounds more like "it's still a nice day" to me.
prisma sage
Yes, it’s short for „ich wünsche dir/Ihnen/euch einen schönen Tag noch“ so have a nice day.
hearty blaze
Oh I see, thank you!
prisma sage
Yw.
bronze garnet
the noch here adds a "rest of the day" meaning to it
final wigeon
Haben "einigermaßen" und "gewissermaßen" dieselbe Bedeutung?
long whale
Haben "einigermaßen" und "gewissermaßen" dieselbe Bedeutung?
@final wigeon "einigermaßen" = reasonably (as in "Es geht ihm wieder einigermaßen gut" - He's reasonably/fairly (?) well again); "gewissermaßen" = in a manner of speaking (Ada Lovelace war gewissermaßen die erste Computerexpertin - In a way/In a manner of speaking, Ada Lovelace was the first computer expert)
final wigeon
Danke sehr!
red wraith
stoic mauveBOT
past rivet
Can I use "außer" the conjunction with the subjunctive?
Can I refer to that question of mine?
Is it possible to say, for instance, the following?
Er gab mir niemals seinen Stift, außer wenn ich ihn darum höflich bäte.
I'm not actually sure about the tenses
long whale
It would have to be "Er gäbe mir niemals seinen Stift, außer wenn ich ihn darum höflich bäte" or "Er würde mir niemals seinen Stift geben, außer wenn ich ihn darum höflich bäte"
past rivet
And I guess the clause after is in the indicative?
Is there a logic concerning the choice of the subjunctive-bearer clause?
rancid drift
@kind lake @long whale - ein verspätetes Dankeschön für eure Hilfe. 🙂
grand pasture
hallo,
Kann mir jemand sagen...Was bedeutet "Befinden"?
humble remnant
sowie "bestimmen" "entscheiden"
"sich befinden" entspricht Standort und bedeutet dass etwas an einem gewissen Ort zu finden ist
bronze garnet
und als Nomen ist es so wie "Gesundheitszustand"
grand pasture
Danke!
mental sparrow
in this sentence, would it give the same meaning if we interchanged the places of the two nouns and made it to be " Der Staat bekommt Die Steuern"
bronze garnet
yes
mental sparrow
Vielen dank👍
real bloom
Hello! Are there practice sheets for conjunctions here? I'm having a hard time with word order when conjunctions are involved.
plain umbra
@real bloom http://www.nthuleen.com/teach/grammar.html
velvet kiln
ember mason
Say it in English
icy flax
Habe meine Deutsche Übersetzungen recht?
Here are the apples that you brought me --> Hier sind die Äpfel, den du mir mitgebracht habe.
Here is the apple that tried to hug me --> Hier ist der Apfel, der mich drücken versucht
Here is the apple that my cat tried to attack --> Hier ist der Apfel, den meine Katze anfallen versucht
@buoyant coral
shouldnt "hug me" be rather "mich umarmen"?
in this sentence, would it give the same meaning if we interchanged the places of the two nouns and made it to be " Der Staat bekommt Die Steuern"
@mental sparrow Ja! Wegen der Deklinationen schon! :D
Obviously, if you have a "der" at the front of Staat, then Staat is the subject, the agent of the action (bekommen, to receive). The "die" at the front of Steuern can online be a "direct object". The thing being received.
icy flax
Cheers, Casca!
glossy marsh
Squeezing someone out of love is more common in German.
In compared to English, that is.
icy flax
Apropos, da du hier bist:
Irgendeiner Unterschied zwischen überfallen und anfallen?
die Krankheit kann dich plötzlich ___.
Wenn Unterschied besteht, erkläre bitte ^^
icy flax
Super, Casca!
*Irgendein(en).
@glossy marsh oh... selbstverständlich! Man sagt "einer Unterschied existiert da". "Einer" nur für feminin dativ und genitiv; und für "One believes in miracle". "Einer glaubt an Wunder" (right?)
long whale
@icy flax I'd also say we usually use "überfallen" with muggers/robbers, while if a wild animal attacks you, we'd use "anfallen". :)
icy flax
Ich habs gefragt, weil bei eines Forum Person B so geschrieben hat:
Person A:
(ich stelle mir unter Anfall immer etwas in Richtung Tobsucht, Schaum vor dem Mund, Veitstanz usw. vor, und bei einer akuten Migräne, die mich tatsächlich gelegentlich befällt, kann (muß) man auch still vor sich hinleiden, deswegen sage ich immer "Attacke" dazu, weil die Migräne einen so plötzlich überfällt.)
Person B:
... oder anfällt?
glossy marsh
@glossy marsh oh... selbstverständlich! Man sagt "einer Unterschied existiert da". "Einer" nur für feminin dativ und genitiv; und für "One believes in miracle". "Einer glaubt an Wunder" (right?)
@icy flax
It's der Unterschied and therefore either ein or einen, never einer.
In your example:
Ein Unterschied existiert da.
icy flax
für mich sind beide "to attack", aber überfallen wäre eher ein "es ist halt passiert" etwas, das nicht so aggressiv ist, eher passiv vllt. Und anfallen wäre schon etwas stärker, aggressiver
Aber bin kein Deutscher hahaha
glossy marsh
Both are aggressive.
glossy marsh
For a violent attack, yes. To me, personally, "überfall" sounds more forceful.
night hearth
Does anyone know a simple German story that I could read online. Like a fairytale????
glossy marsh
Children's books are always a great place to start. If you're into more advanced reading, I'd suggest the Grimm fairytales.
autumn sapphire
i don't think either's too good for a beginner to be honest
plain umbra
Here are some simplified fairytales with audio if you want: https://www.thefablecottage.com/german @night hearth
fallow ledge
Beelingual has simple texts avaliable, its displayed with target language and native language versions
That fabelcottege site looks really good have a look there first
knotty mulch
Does anyone have any free websites or anything that can help me learn German better? I’m using duolingo now and am looking for further improvement
long whale
DW resp. Deutsche Welle is the best serious free resource I know about. :) @knotty mulch https://www.dw.com/en/learn-german/s-2469
knotty mulch
Thanks :))
mint ravine
Hello all, would “regardless of their background” translate to “unabhängig von ihrem Hintergrund” ? I feel like there’s a better way of saying it? Would genitive be better here?
autumn sapphire
it works. There are alternatives if you want to make it sound more formal, for example ungeachtet + [genitive] (or you can put ungeachtet after it)
mint ravine
Thank you!
glossy marsh
Berzi best boy. 💙
long whale
@mint ravine If "background" refers to family, status, place of birth, etc., then "die Herkunft" would be what you're looking for. :)
glossy marsh
^
Sounds better, but "Hintergrund" can still work in that context.
Though then I'd clarify by adding
gesellschaftlichen/sozialem Hintergrund
mint ravine
Thanks all!! That clears that up a lot 🙂
weak radish
Hi, can anyone explain why furchtbar becomes furchtbaren in the following sentence? "Dort sieht er eine furchtbare Nachricht mit einer furchtbaren Überschrift."
bronze garnet
Adjektivdeklination 👀
glossy marsh
So that's the word I failed to google, lol. ^
weak radish
🙂 now I understand. Thanks!
hearty blaze
"Einen Kaffee ohne Zucker bitte"
why is Kaffee in accusative? Shouldn't it be "Ein Kaffee ohne Zucker bitte"?
autumn sapphire
you might have noticed there's no verb in that sentence. That's because it's implied
just like it, so is the subject
delicate tiger
implied "[Ich hätte gerne] einen Kaffee..."
hearty blaze
Oh okay, thank you!
gray hatch
Hallo, ich bin Brayan, ich komme aus Kolombien, ich will Deustchlernen, ich habe die beispiele gemachen zuverbessen meine wortschatz. Kannst du wenn ja (if) ihr sind korrect
ive done all these examples, but im not sure if they are correct at all
grim obsidian
it will be easier to correct if you send the excel worksheet
delicate tiger
it's already a google sheet, link it in #writing
long whale
The only correct one is n° 5 (Ich muss meine Hausaufgaben machen). Best check the conjugation of the verbs here: https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/wollen_moechten_wuenschen (you need to scroll down almost to the bottom of the page). Also, better use a different dictionary, because "mascota" = das Haustier Maskottchen I like this one, but am told it's no good on mobile devices: https://de.pons.com/übersetzung/spanisch-deutsch/mascota
The construction "para + infinitivo" doesn't work in German, it has to be "um... zu + Infinitiv": para ir a la playa = um an den Strand zu gehen.
@gray hatch
restive pier
can someone explain to me what fassen means?
plain umbra
In which context?
restive pier
"essen fassen"
ember mason
To take food. But maybe you mean ''Essenfassen''. This is a military term for when soldiers line up for meals
plain umbra
Ahh, Essen. I was so confused how it could be "essen fassen". 😄
gray hatch
@long whale danke für deine help hahah
restive pier
thanks lol
ember mason
''fassen'' has a few definitions.
It can be ''to hold on to something'', ''seize someone'', ''capture''...
In the military context with Essen (food), it's what I described
And you can say ''Ich kann es kaum fassen'', for example, as ''I can't believe it''
(More or less as in ''I can't grasp this concept'')
restive pier
so fassen is more grasp vs halten is to hold
and fangen is catch vs fassen is capture
i think i got it
ember mason
Yeah I think this is correct
Imma wait for a native to confirm tho
latent wadi
then theres anfassen
full jungle
how much force should one use to pronounce the uvular trill
humble remnant
don't overdo it
it's a lot softer than you think it is
like practice until you can consistently hold the sound but you do not need to extend it at all in speech
humble remnant
southern
full jungle
ah
hushed coyote
Guten Morgen 🙂
unkempt spoke
I have a small question regarding Vergleichssätze
Confused as to when to use als instead of als ob, or als wenn
I understand that with wären, that's an irreal sentence, a possibility
But not sure when to use each or if they are all interchangeable
humble remnant
als ob and als wenn are not for comparisons
they are mostly interchangeable (though i hear als ob a little more often)
and they mean "as if" of course
knotty adder
als wenn is more common in formal writing, or so I read in Hammer's grammar book
humble remnant
probably true
oh you can also use "als ob" as an interjection
just like how we say "as if!" in english
but you don't really say "als wenn!" that way
unkempt spoke
Ahhh
But what about als alone
I only know that the conjunctive goes next to and after als, but at the end for als wenn/als ob
But yeah the as if part I understand. That's what I meant with comparison
An exageratted one
humble remnant
als has different meaning
s
it means "than" in terms of comparisons like "Ich bin größer als du"
it also means "when" when regarding non-repeated actions in the past
like "Als ich in London war, habe ich Buckingham Palace besichtigt"
unkempt spoke
I mean like in this sentence:
"Der Chef behandelt uns, als wären wir gleichberechtigte Partner."
humble remnant
finally it means "as" when assigning roles
yes, that's the third meaning i was getting to
unkempt spoke
So, then when do I use als wären instead of als ob/als wenn (...) wären?
humble remnant
the basic version of that usage is something like "Als Arzt kann ich dir etwas verschreiben"
this is hard to explain lol one sec
unkempt spoke
Take your time! I'm grateful for the help
humble remnant
so, in my sentence, i'm literally assigning that profession/role
unkempt spoke
As a doctor, right?
humble remnant
Ich bin Arzt. Ich kann dir etwas verschreiben.
yees
yes
to connect them, you can say Als Arzt kann ich dir etwas verschreiben
when you use als wären in this sentence
you are saying that the Chef believes the statement you're making
you could also say "Der Chef behandelt uns, als ob wir gleichberechtigte Partner wären"
but that sentence makes it a little more.. disconnected
as if it's not true at all but rather just an idea of der Chefc
Chef
als wären is a little closer to reality i believe
unkempt spoke
I thought the context of the sentence was like "i can't believe the boss treats me and X person as if we were on the same level"
humble remnant
that would be closer to the 2nd sentence
the 1st is more neutral
"The boss treats me as if me and X were on the same level"
2nd is moreso adding (i can't believe this)
humble remnant
yes
to be honest there is no actual semantic difference it kinda is more based on intonation when you say it
but if you want to use that emphasis it would be better to use als ob
/als wenn
unkempt spoke
Ahhhh alright. Thank you!
Well that's one thing off my study list now. Gotta buy another notebook and write it down. Thank you tons
ember mason
Ich hab eigentlich eine Frage
allein vs. alleine - wan nutzt man welches?
summer crystal
If Austria is Österreich, What does Öster means?
autumn sapphire
east, though not in modern german
bronze garnet
"Österreich, derives from the Old High German word Ostarrîchi "eastern realm""
interesting
summer crystal
Eastern of what though?
formal nexus
petition to change die schweiz to das westerreich
bronze garnet
its a german word so i assume east of germany
or whatever it was called at that point
summer crystal
But woundn't it then be Südenreich? lol
@formal nexus And Liechtenstein to Mittereich XD
formal nexus
wiktionary says it's been used since 996 at the least
so east could be in reference to the carolingian empire
which was split into west, middle, and east francia
summer crystal
True!
summer crystal
What are the translated versions of masculine, feminine, neuter and plural, when we're talking about pronouns?
autumn sapphire
neutral is a different thing, just like in english
the adjective is neutrisch, the noun is neutrum (and for m. and f. it's maskulinum, femininum)
(honestly haven't encountered neutrisch much at all, i'd just say sächlich)
summer crystal
Danke!
long whale
Ich hab
eigentlicheine Frage
allein vs. alleine - wann nutzt man welches?
@ember mason Both are correct. It's like gern vs. gerne, i.e. it really doesn't matter. However, you can't add in the "e" in compound words like "alleinstehend" or "alleinerziehend". :)
ember mason
@ember mason Both are correct. It's like gern vs. gerne, i.e. it really doesn't matter. However, you can't add in the "e" in compound words like "alleinstehend" or "alleinerziehend". :)
@long whale Super, danke. Ich habe ''allein'' in einem Text geschrieben und mein (deutscher) Lehrer hat mir gesagt es sollte ''alleine'' sein. Aber er konnte mir nicht erklären, warum es so ist.
long whale
👀 Tell him, best regards, and how about checking it up? ;) https://deutschlernerblog.de/allein-oder-alleine/
ember mason
Haha er hilft mir eigentlich nur mit Konversationen und so. Er ist der Onkel meines Freundes. Hat Jura gemacht, spricht ein gutes Deutsch, ist aber für das Unterrichten nicht zertifiziert worden sozusagen
Also würde er gerne darüber lernen
long whale
Come to think of it, when used in the sense of "aber, jedoch" (which I'd say is almost obsolete), you really can't use "alleine" (Bedeutung II): https://www.dwds.de/wb/allein Ah, that explains it. :)
ember mason
Das war nicht der Fall, ist aber gut zu wissen!
summer crystal
What does "keine", "keinen" and the asterisks mean?
long whale
kein/e/n = no + noun, as in "I have no children" = Ich habe keine Kinder (Akk. pl.)
@summer crystal
I don't know what the * is for, except maybe you're supposed to pay attention, because Dativ endings are different from Nom. and Akk.?
summer crystal
It was from an der/ein words chart, don't know if this clarifies...
ember mason
It's probably showing that it changes
Usually, in plural, it's "die" and "keine". But Dativ makes it "den" and "keinen" so it's drawing your attention to that
Source: seen many tables like that. Seen many people ask that. Seen many others answer that. Hahaha
thorn pelican
the * is probably because most nouns get 'n' on the end in dative
e.g. die Kinder in dative becomes den Kindern
es gefällt keinen Kindern
vs.
die Kinder mögen es
soft plover
What do you find is the best way to immerse yourself in German. Simply revising and going over textbooks is no longer cutting it. Don't really have anyone to talk to in person. Suggestions?
autumn sapphire
you have people to talk to here, there are voice channels ;) Also look for youtube channels, podcasts, and books in german
the usual
unkempt spoke
A quick question
When using vergleichssätze with als, als ob, or als wenn
When do I use wären instead of wurden?
Is it like the case of pasives which...means that it depends if the option is being done at the moment or done in the past?
Like for example...this sentence
That I havent finished typing cuz having a bit of an issue
thorn pelican
wurden is past tense of werden
unkempt spoke
Right
thorn pelican
würden is kon ii and equiv to wären
wären is used for sein where sein is the conjugated verb and hätten for haben
otherwise würden + inf is a replacement for the kon ii form of the conjugated verb
unkempt spoke
In this case,
Sie tut immer so, als wäre alles wissen
or
Sie tut immer so, als würde alles wissen
Which one is correct and why?
And, for example in this sentence: "Meine Kollegin verhält sich, also ob sie die Chefin wäre"
Why that one is wäre but not würde?
thorn pelican
well you could say würde sein but wäre = würde sein
you'd use würden in your above wissen example
fierce idol
*als wüsste sie alles
also works
wäre only works if you interpret 'Wissen' as a noun (which is probably not what you're going for)
thorn pelican
ever verv has a kon ii form. traditionally you'd use the kon ii form in such statements but some kon ii forms are indistinguishable from simple past so you use würden + infinitiv instead
fierce idol
as sun said:
otherwise würden + inf is a replacement for the kon ii form of the conjugated verb
thorn pelican
and würden + infinitive has become a quasi norm except for a few verbs
wären and hätten are the teo most common of those
wären = would be
and hätten = would have
and hülften (rare these days) = would help
but machten = both would make and made so to avoid confusion you use würden machen instead
unkempt spoke
So wäre has to have a noun?
Ohhh is that why then this example uses wäre?
"Die Kollegen tun ständig so, als ob sie alle perfekt wären"
Because alle perfekt in itself could be seen as a noun, yeah?
"all perfect"
Also right now Im only using wären or wurden
havent seen the ones with hätten yet
thorn pelican
a better way to thi k of ot is if 'sein' is the onl verb in the clause in a non-conditional version of the sentence, use wären
i am tall
ich bin groß
i would be tall
ich wäre groß
unkempt spoke
Ah!
thorn pelican
you see hätten a lot in ich hätte gern - i would like to have when ordering food
thorn pelican
i have chips - ich habe pommes
i would have chips - ich hätte pommes
unkempt spoke
In this case, is more specifically for constructions with sentences with "als, als ob, als wenn"
The "Vergleichssätze"
for unreal comparisons
"irrealen Vergleich"
thorn pelican
the same applies there
he talks as though i have chips.
er spricht, ich habe pommes
er spricht, als ob ich pommes hätte
unkempt spoke
Its the same as "As if", right?
thorn pelican
i spose so
unkempt spoke
like, "he asks me as if I have any idea either"
Would it be like..
Er fragt mir, als ob ich eine Idee entweder habe
? or
thorn pelican
entweder wouldn't be worrect there and it would be hätte iirc
entweder is only a conjuction as in either x or y
i'd probably use something like auch 🤔
or maybe als ob ich irgendeine Idee auch hätte (not sure about the auch position)
timber niche
Er fragt mir , als ob ich anderen Idee habe
thorn pelican
andere would be other
timber niche
Mein Englisch nicht Mehr gut, so dass ich nicht erklären kann.
unkempt spoke
Dankeschön!
Also I guess if I used hätte it would be
"Er fragt mir, als ob ich andere Idee hätte"?
unkempt spoke
Oh right
thorn pelican
and andere means 'other'
unkempt spoke
Yeah yeah
timber niche
Object ist ich. Du musst "habe,, benutzen.
thorn pelican
so you'd need either an eine in there or make idee plural
unkempt spoke
is it habe or hätte? I thought itd be hätte cuz its a possibility
thorn pelican
das ist aber ein irrealer Satz, deshalb nutzen wir hätten
timber niche
Ich habe
Er, sie, es habt
Du hast
Wir haben
Ihr habt
Sie haben
thorn pelican
das ist aber ein irrealer Satz, deshalb nutzen wir hätten
unkempt spoke
habe ist präsens. Deshalb brauche ich Worte im Konjunktiv II
autumn sapphire
er sie es hat, übrigens
fierce idol
Und ich ist auch kein object
autumn sapphire
subjekt mit k im deutschen
autumn sapphire
🤔 wenn ich eine Programmiersprache nenne, welchen Relativpronomen passt damit? ZB "blablabla Python, das ich am besten mag." Passt da das Neutrum oder sollte es was anderes sein?
fierce idol
ich würde Neutrum nutzen. Aber viel eher noch welches als das in diesem Fall
autumn sapphire
interessant, ich dachte etwas so ähnliches
am ende hab ich es irgendwie anders geschrieben und die e-mail schon geschickt also... :>
danke aber
tardy carbon
also ich würde ja persönlich eher welches verwenden
aber ja, neutrum
alternativ könntest du auch die Programmiersprache Python sagen, dann wäre es eindeutig feminin
autumn sapphire
👍
summer crystal
Is there a site or resource to know the genders of words?
bronze garnet
like a general rule or to look up single words?
autumn sapphire
dict.cc, duden, leo.dict.org... any dictionary
summer crystal
Look up single words
bronze garnet
yeah any dictionary
autumn sapphire
see above
summer crystal
Danke!
polar holly
Hallo, könnte mir jemand bitte erklären warum es in diesem Fall "wegen des Verdachts" und nicht "wegen dem Verdacht" ist?
polar holly
Vielen Dank, wegen dem war immer so normal für mich
summer crystal
@bronze garnet There is a general rule?
bronze garnet
there are some patterns that are more or less reliable
type >faq Gender patterns in the bot channel
summer crystal
Danke again!
spare furnace
I feel like I missed this when I read the intro stuff - is there a list of all the faq's?
delicate tiger
see #botchannel >faq all
hearty blaze
Is "Moinsen" a commonly known/used greeting in northern Germany?
It's in this Memrise course but my dad has never heard of it (he's fluent in German), but he hasn't been to Germany in 30+ years.
bronze garnet
definitely heard that before but mainly as like a funny variation of hello, not a proper/serious replacement
but im in the south
hearty blaze
Okay thanks!
autumn sapphire
you should definitely wait for opinions by northern germans
i think it's relatively recent though so your dad not knowing it doesn't necessarily mean anything (especially without knowing where he is from/where in germany he lived. Dialectally the differences between north and south can be sharp)
celest frost
I've heard it before when I'd been to the North
using dialect words as a learner is probably not a good idea, however, so rather use Hochdeutsch like "Hallo/Guten Tag"
unkempt spoke
hello
Although I'm in b2.2 I noticed that my bases are kind of skewed...
it's starting to cause me a lot of issues and stress, so I want to ask something very basic
Would like to see if there's material for a crash course on prepositions
fallow ledge
Vor langer Zeit sah ich ein derartiges Dokument, gib mir einen Moment, es zu finden
Mal sehen ob ich es überhaupt irgendwo gespeichert hab XD
thorn pelican
not a crash course per se, but has some explanations and exercises:
https://resources.german.lsa.umich.edu/grammatik/prepositions/
fallow ledge
Da ist es!
Ich hab gerade an genau das gedacht
Eigentlich warte mal
Sun du hast noch ein anderes aus einem Buch, ne?
unkempt spoke
oh thank you so much!
thorn pelican
oh ja, was ich dir geschickt habe
aus 'weg mit den typischen Fehlern'
aber das Buch nimmt an, dass man die schon kennt
fallow ledge
Das ist zwar wahr, aber ich fad es trotzdem eine Tolle Ressourse
plain umbra
@unkempt spoke I just want to add some notes of clarifications about how people usually learn prepositions. To put it simply, usually you learn prepositions in stages. You basically have these main categories:
- prepositions with literal usages (on the table, in the car, etc.) which you learn at Level A (the link SUNSET gave has super good info about these ones)
- special grammatical constructions (e.g. zu + nominalized verb) which are often somewhere around B2 but can be earlier or later depending on the specific grammar
- idiomatic usages, which you just learn throughout the language at different times when you come across them (e.g. zu Hause)
- specific verb-preposition pairs (usually B2+)
thorn pelican
vielleicht gibt es irgendwas in den Schenke Büchern auch
plain umbra
I just wanted to mention that since you mentioned wanting a "crash course", and it might seem confusing why certain resources only cover some types of usages and not others.
plain umbra
You can search pretty easily to find verb-preposition vocab lists.
It's just vocab memorization stuff though. You don't need to learn any new grammar for that.
The other stuff you just learn separately when you come across it.
thorn pelican
Kapital 24 in 'Basic German' - https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4H3HOluLJOSdFBqTTJ4SC1ucTQ/view (from the resource doc linked so pls don't eat me mods)
und Unit 9 und Unit 16 in 'Intermediate German' - https://mercaba.org/SANLUIS/IDIOMAS/Alemán/Intermediate german.pdf (same deal)
unkempt spoke
Thank you so much...
I really appreciate. Again, been having issues with my bases since B1 and I need to study real hard these weeks. Gonna look at these right now. Maybe ask questions for stuff I still don't understand
plain umbra
No problem, feel free.
Don't worry too much about most of the things I mentioned btw.
I just wanted to point out they exist, so that you know that even when you learn the basics, there's still more out there that you'll encounter.
But studying the basics is enough.
unkempt spoke
Yeah. I really need this, and also words like dazu dahinter dafur, etc
Those are so hard for me stil as well
But feel I need to tackle prepositions on itself first
and then move to those
fallow ledge
Many of those da/wo compounds are associated with a verb
Like: denken an or glauben an
fallow ledge
They can be used on their own with reference to something: like:
links steht das Bett, rechts steht der Nachtisch und dazwischen schläft die Katze
unkempt spoke
ahhh right
glossy marsh
Das Essen/Trinken.
autumn sapphire
hard to verify
i'm somewhat positive those cases are actually verbs that come from nouns
when the nouns look just like the infinitive of the verb like in Essen or Triken though, that's the other way around and those are always neuter
thorn pelican
there are a few rules for verbs
if it'a just the verb stem it's masculine, if it's the infinitive it's neuterl, if it throws a ge in front (and a vowel sound change) then it's neuter or masculine. i think most are neutral though but i'm not 100% sure on the percentage. e.g
schmecken - das Geschmack.
backen - das Gebäck
and ones that take the verb stem then add an e are of course feminine
i dom't know which came first - the verb or the boun, but nouns that are the same as the stem are yeah masculine
careful though as there are nouns that look like the verb stem but aren't actually e.g. antworten but die Antwort
mental sparrow
@thorn pelican @autumn sapphire thanks a lot , its much more clearer now , of course i will be on the look out for any more exceptions to the mentioned trends
white scarab
when the nouns look just like the infinitive of the verb like in Essen or Triken though, that's the other way around and those are always neuter
@autumn sapphire yea like der Husten
@thorn pelican ^
fierce idol
Der Husten .. not sure if that can be called the infinitive
But that's a very interesting 'exception'(?)
Cause there is also Das Husten as you probably know already
white scarab
yea i understand that perfectly fine but i've seen der Husten being used everywhere for everything
fierce idol
Not sure if I understand you right now. I think there are cases where I wouldn't use it
white scarab
fierce idol
as in 'Mir gefällt der Akt des Hustens sehr'
That's a very 'made up' example, cause you could kinda replace it in everything else that came to my mind
white scarab
well that's a very mediocre example because they both deklinate the same way in this case
:D
fierce idol
That's true
white scarab
but yea i've been using das Husten due to habit of nominalizing verbs and i always got corrected to der Husten
fierce idol
'Das Husten ist ein Akt, bei dem man sich, passiert es während der Nahrungsaufnahme, verschlucken kann'
white scarab
yup
i know the difference, just saying that in 99% cases you'll more likely need der Husten than das Husten
;)
fierce idol
(normally you would just say Husten without article here though, but 'der' would be pretty wrong)
I see :P
Well, that's not wrong
long whale
@thorn pelican Um, it's actually "der Geschmack". :)
summer crystal
What are the best online, paid, courses/apps/materials for learning German? Either one-time-payment or a subscription
glossy marsh
If you really want to spend money, try Babbl or Rosetta Stone.
summer crystal
I tried Babbel's free version for a time, and It is really good. Also the 2,8 dollars per month is really accesible
Oh, Rosseta Stone is the same price too
@glossy marsh Which one would you recommend?
prisma sage
Depends on your lvl. Apps for beginners if you wanna spend money. If you’re somewhat fluent, German newspapers and Netflix are the way to go I guess.
summer crystal
I'm a totally begginer, but when I manage to cromprehend most of the language, I'll definetly start reading books and articles in German
buoyant coral
Ich wurde heute ein Big Mac haben
I'll have a Big Mac today
Is my German sentence right or wrong?
knotty flax
It should be "Ich werde heute einen Big Mac essen"
"wurde" indicates a past tense and the word "haben" isn't really used in that context in German although you technically could say "Ich werde heute einen Big Mac haben" but it doesn't necessarily imply that you are going to eat it
buoyant coral
Ach so @knotty flax danke für die Korrektur
knotty flax
Kein Ding😉
bronze garnet
Whats the context? Just your plan for food today or are you saying that when ordering the big mac?
past rivet
Reporter = Berichter?
teal wasp
Der Reporter, der Berichterstatter
past rivet
Could it be shortened to "Berichter"?
past rivet
Alright, thank you
waxen orbit
hat jemand die zusammenfasung der geschichte gottesurteil ?
summer crystal
How do you pronounce Sechzehn (16)? I'm having trouble with the middle part
summer crystal
So "Se'shi'Zen"?
knotty flax
[ˈzɛçt͡seːn] (if this helps)
summer crystal
"ç" That's the "hissing"?
knotty flax
yeah, like in "ich"
summer crystal
Wow, it improved a lot! Danke ihr zwei!
knotty flax
np
past rivet
Why isn't it "in den Zug" in
"Ich habe eine Minute, um mich in Sicherheit vorn im Zug zu bringen."
sand vine
You use the dative here, singular masculine + dative corresponds to in dem Zug
(hence shortened to im)
past rivet
But why the dative? Because he's already in the train?
thorn pelican
pretty much
fallow ledge
ich bin eben auf ein neues Konjuntion gestoßen und ich habe keine Ahnung wie es funktioniet. Es sieht aus, als ob es ähnlich wie "bevor" zu benutzen ist, aber ich bin mir nicht ganz sicher.
Es vergingen drei Stunden, ehe wir landen konnten.
Ich musste es erst sehen, ehe ich es glauben konnte.
Ehe wir handeln können, müssen wir erst alles gründlich überlegen.
raw pilot
"ehe" wird eher in formalen Texten oder literarischen Werken benutzt, während "bevor" allgemein nutzbar ist. Beide Wörter bedeuten das Selbe, "bevor" ist einfach allgemeiner
fallow ledge
achso, kein wunder dass ich es vorher noch nie gesehen hat. also wenn ich mit Freunden plaude, würde es sich komisch annhören, wenn ich "ehe" statt "bevor" benutzen würde
glossy marsh
Genau, "Ehe" ist hier mit dem englischen "Ere" vergleichbar, was das Erscheinen angeht.
fallow ledge
ich habe niieee ere im Englischen gelesen oder gehört, "ehe" müsste dann ganz selten sein, oder?
glossy marsh
Es geht so, es kommt etwas öfter vor.
Wie Nico sagte, es ist meist formalen Texten vorbehalten.
fallow ledge
danke euch!
floral onyx
Sagt man: Das Mädchen sucht seinen Freund oder das Mädchen sucht ihren Freund?
plain umbra
zocken
glossy marsh
Sagt man: Das Mädchen sucht seinen Freund oder das Mädchen sucht ihren Freund?
@floral onyx As a Mädchen is, despite the noun being neuter, female, it would be "ihren".
I can understand the confusion, though. Here the physical gender supercedes the grammatical gender.
plain umbra
Well, I think it's fair to say for the Mädchen sentence, it's a pretty unique case (doesn't usually work this way), and you will definitely get different opinions from different people about how it should work.
glossy marsh
Yeah, definitely.
"seinen" seems like it'd be correct, but sounds incredibly strange to me.
floral onyx
shell junco
@plain umbra danke
plain umbra
@floral onyx Basically it's like this: in the past, it was common that people used neuter grammar 100% of the time for Mädchen. But gradually over time, people are going towards using feminine grammar for Mädchen. Right now it's in a mixed point where some people prefer one and some people prefer the other.
But if your question is about exams and so on, it might be a good idea to stick to neuter grammar in an exam, to be safe. I assume that's the safer option anyway.
floral onyx
Okayy ty :)
past rivet
"Es muss irgendetwas passiert sein." Can somebody explain the grammar here?
near folio
@past rivet
autumn sapphire
same as "something must have happened"
past rivet
Why isn't it "Irgendetwas muss passiert sein."?
autumn sapphire
german requires that the thing that happens (irgendetwas) be the object of the verb passieren, so something must play the part of the subject (es)
past rivet
Is that a dative passive?
autumn sapphire
no
near folio
@past rivet vielleicht hilft dir diese Erklärung: https://german.stackexchange.com/a/36217
past rivet
Why isn't it even "ihm" in "es fehlen"?
I'm confused
And "passieren" doesn't take a direct object, no?
autumn sapphire
it doesn't, the first part of my explanation above is wrong
near folio
@past rivet
Why isn't it even "ihm" in "es fehlen"?
meinst du diesen Satz:
Es fehlen genaue Angaben
das Dativobjekt kann hier weggelassen werden, aberihmwäre richtig:
Es fehlen ihm genaue Angaben
autumn sapphire
by the way both "irgendetwas muss passiert sein" and "es muss irgendetwas passiert sein" are correct as far as I know. In the latter, es must be introduced to retain the correct word order
spare furnace
"Ich schaue mir den See an."
^Anschauen is a reflexive verb, here, right? Why?
Isn't this - "I look at the sea?"
I thought reflexive verbs would be verbs that impact the subject. Eg "ich freue mich" is about myself/my mood
bronze garnet
i think having it reflexiv adds a bit more depth to it
like you dont just look at it, you take a closer look, you walk around etc
celest frost
you could also say "Ich schaue zur See", but then it sounds like your focussing more on the direction than the sea
bronze garnet
it works as "Ich schaue den See an" but that feels more like you just take a look from far away
celest frost
that's a good example for when the reflexive "mir" is not needed
but once you add it, it doesn't sound as "distant" or "objective" anymore
spare furnace
Interesting.
I just assumed it had to be something that affects you/your physical position /etc, which I guess you can argue fits here in the abstract (looking at something can affect you) , I don't know. I was really surprised to see anschauen (to look at something) count as reflexive.
Ty for the info /thoughts!
autumn sapphire
it's actually not uncommon across european languages. In english it only seems to occur informally/dialectally but it's present in many germanic and romance languages
icy flax
@bronze garnet and @celest frost , es ist so toll, eure Perspektive von solche Nuancen eurer Sprache zu lesen. Ich wusste nicht, dass dieses "mir" all diese Bedeutung hatte. Krass!
raw pilot
"Ich schaue mir den See an."
^Anschauen is a reflexive verb, here, right? Why?
@spare furnace To give you my input aswell:
"Ich schaue den See an" is a 100% correct sentence aswell. It's a fine difference between the both sentences.
"Ich schaue den See an" describes the action to just look at the lake
"Ich schaue mir den See an" describes the action of inspecting the lake
You can use both sentences in daily life though
woven phoenix
How does one use umso by itself?
woven phoenix
haha thanks!
final wigeon
In my humble opinion, I wouldn't say that umso can be used alone. The cause and effect relation can sometimes be a bit more subtle (i.e. when not used with je and a comparison) but it's always there, even when just meant somewhere in the context. Again, that is just my opinion from experience, don't know if it's correct.
celest frost
^
pale moat
Is this grammatically correct? : "Nachdem meine erste Festnahme passiert hat, tötete ich siebenundzwanzig unschuldigen Menschen, um Spaß zu machen."
past rivet
I'd go for Plusquamperfekt + Perfekt/Präteritum
pale moat
the hell is that
past rivet
Past perfect = Plusquamperfekt
pale moat
oh u mean "Nachdem meine erste Festnahme passiert hatte"
past rivet
Yeah
fierce idol
Fast
pale moat
slow
fierce idol
Perfektbildung ist nicht mit haben bei dem Wort passieren
past rivet
Oh, didn't notice that sorry
fierce idol
Don't worry
fierce idol
Your correction wasn't even wrong
Yes
And it's the same way basically
Perfekt -> Plusquamperfekt
'haben' -> Präteritum von 'haben'
'sein' -> ....
pale moat
passiert war?
Also
"Nachdem meine erste Festnahme passiert war, tötete ich siebenundzwanzig unschuldigen Menschen, um Spaß zu machen."
fierce idol
Also die Zeitformen sind jetzt zumindest schon mal richtig!
pale moat
yayy
fierce idol
aber Spaß machen ist umgangssprachlich für scherzen (||to joke||)
pale moat
what should i say instead
fierce idol
To maintain your structure with um zu you could say um Spaß zu haben
But I would rather go for zum Spaß
pale moat
alright
fierce idol
and 'unschuldigen Menschen' is Dativ
pale moat
should it be accusative
fierce idol
Yes
pale moat
also where should i put "zum Spaß"?
"Nachdem meine erste Festnahme passiert war, tötete ich siebenundzwanzig unschuldige Menschen zum Spaß."
fierce idol
I would say it like that, too
fierce idol
Sure :3
pale moat
now i can meaningfully tell people about my mass murders 🙂
fierce idol
Awesome
stable pawn
Any difference between Kissen and Polster?
long whale
Any difference between Kissen and Polster?
@stable pawn Yup. "Kissen" is for cushion and pillow. "Polster" used to be a synonym, but isn't anymore. These days, it's only used for upholstery (sofas, armchairs).
prisma sage
They use Polster in Austria.
stable pawn
Ach, thanks
glossy marsh
In Austria, "Sessel" is also any chair.
summer crystal
What's the difference between "Deutshe" and "Deutscher"? The latter is for people?
bronze garnet
eine Deutsche --> female German person, ein Deutscher --> male German person
summer crystal
Danke!
long whale
There's also "das Deutsche", i.e. the German language. It isn't often used like that, in Nominativ, but if you see "im Deutschen...", then it means "in [the] German [language]..." and the form is derived from "das Deutsche". :) @summer crystal
summer crystal
@long whale Danke, but I always learned that the German language is "Deutsch". Would then "Das Deutsch" and "im Deutsch" be wrong?
glossy marsh
Das Deutsch des Mannes ist gut.
The German of that man is good.
long whale
Well, for "German is a difficult language" you've got a choice: "Deutsch ist eine schwierige Sprache" and "Das Deutsche ist eine schwierige Sprache" would both be correct. However, im Deutsch is not correct, you'd always need to say "im Deutschen" (derived from "das Deutsche") or "auf Deutsch". :)
@summer crystal
summer crystal
Danke nochmal!
icy flax
How do I fill the field below better so it means "the document to which I have access now"?
Die __ Unterlage
Options: vorliegende, anwesende, disponibele, befindliche, gegenwärtige, verfügbare.
ember mason
Das klingt gut
Anwesend und befindlich heißen, die Unterlage ist in einem bestimmten Ort. Aber nicht unbedingt bei dir, das würde nur der Kontext sagen.
Disponibel und verfügbar heißen, die Unterlage ist vorhanden. Aber wieder heißt es nicht unbedingt, dass sie bei dir ist.
Gegenwärtig heißt eigentlich auch laut Duden anwesend.
Aber ich glaube, dass ''vorliegende'' das einzige Wort ist, das beschreibt, das Dokument sei BEI DIR und VERFÜGBAR
kind lake
celest frost
verfügbar means that it's technically accessible, but not immediately
"Anwesend" only works for people.
"Disponibel" is a word I have never heard before, which probably applies to most native speakers tbh. It seems to be used to say that something/someone is "ready right now", which fits your criteria.
"Befindlich"works, but needs more words, like "die sich im Anhang befindliche Unterlage".
"Gegenwärtig" does not make sense here, because it's used to describe a situation.
"Vorliegend" means that it's available to the person you are talking to
I'm a native speaker and I would have failed this question without research. "disponibel" seems correct
ember mason
Wow that question can fuck right off
celest frost
I'm not sure if it's conjugated as "disponible" or "disponibele" as you suggested
duden.de says it's "Die disponible Unterlage"
yeah, I learned something new here as well
ich sehe gerade, dass ich auch hätte auf Deutsch antworten können. Übst du für den C1 oder C2?
denn das ist eine C3-Frage 😁
celest frost
thinking about it some more, "vorliegende" would also work in the context of someone else having given the item to you, but then you would have to say "Die mir vorliegende Unterlage"
anyway, this is why I came to the conclusion: ||https://www.openthesaurus.de/synonyme/disponibel||
latent wadi
Disponibel is a spanish cognate
icy flax
ich sehe gerade, dass ich auch hätte auf Deutsch antworten können. Übst du für den C1 oder C2?
@celest frost C2 :)
Es gibt verdammte viele Synonyme, aber alle sind so ähnlich... Jetzt muss ich wissen, wie sie zu unterscheiden. Es macht keinen Sinn mehr, wenn sogar ein Deutscher die Wörter nicht einfach unterscheiden kann Y.Y
Viele viele Danken!
celest frost
*wie sie zu unterscheiden sind
*Vielen, vielen Dank!
Gern, viel Erfolg beim weiteren Lernen
buoyant coral
For sentences like "my british colleague" does the ending of "mein" reflect upon british or colleague?
near folio
colleague, die Deklination wird immer aus dem Substantiv (und Kasus) abgeleitet
buoyant coral
Ah yes! well does british have to reflect on the noun too?
near folio
Ja, das muss es tun, weil es hier ein Adjektiv ist
buoyant coral
Ach so
stable pawn
Any way to replicate the do-emphasis in English? ie, one could say "I do like chocolate", which is more emphatic than "I like chocolate" AND/OR can be use if someone indicates that the speaker does not like chocolate. ("You don't like chocolate." "Actually, I DO like chocolate.")
Obviously you wouldn't say "Ich tue Schokolade mögen" (eww) so I'm guessing there's some modal particle that does the job?
https://coerll.utexas.edu/gg/gr/mis_04.html - perhaps 'Ich mag doch Schokolade'?
glossy marsh
You don't like chocolate.
Actually, I do like chocolate.
You have multiple options here:
I like chocolate, actually. -> Said in a questioning "Have you forgotten that I like chocolate?" sort of way.
--> Ich mag doch Schokolade.
Actually, I do like chocolate.
--> Doch, ich mag Schokolade.
Actually, I do like chocolate, but [...]
Eigentlich mag ich Schokolade schon aber [...]. | Eigentlich mag ich schon Schokolade aber [...].
(Emphasis on "schon", as otherwise you're implying you already like chocolate in the sense of time.
white scarab
what about halt?
glossy marsh
That'd be
I just/simply like chocolate (, end of discussion).
white scarab
mhm
stable pawn
got it, ty
sage tendon
w-was
past rivet
schicken?
past rivet
Ah okay, good
hearty blaze
how do you say "I watched it over and over and over"?
"Ich habe es wieder und wieder und wieder geschauen"?
hearty blaze
Thanks! @glossy marsh
scenic thorn
is there an actual difference between 'Sachen' und 'Dinge' or are they just synonyms?
glossy marsh
They're similar enough.
"Das Ding" is physical and can be touched, "die Sache" cannot.
humble remnant
just as an extra note i usually hear "das Ding ist"
Jugendsprache maybe but still
long whale
so ‘Dinge’ is more casual?
@scenic thorn In plural? No, I wouldn't say so. But "Ding" (or sometimes colloquially "Dings") is what you'd say when you can't remember or don't know the word for something, like "thingummy". :)
white scarab
dingsbums ;)
celest frost
hearing thingummy was a first, I only knew about thingamajig and whatchamacallit
icy flax
"Das Ding" is physical and can be touched, "die Sache" cannot.
@glossy marsh
Ich hab mich an den Song von Seeed erinnert: "Oh, du hübsches Ding, ich versteck meinen Ehering" haha
Wo würde "das Zeug" in der Tabelle von Casca liegen?
icy flax
oh :O
Können diese Wörter auf einem Höflichkeitsrang geordnet werden?
humble remnant
hmm
Gegenstand - formell, fast gehoben
Zeug - eher neutral, ein bisschen umgangssprachlich
Ding - umgangssprachlich
Sache ist selbst neutral
und lieber "...diese Wörter einem Höflichkeitsrang zugeordnet werden"
icy flax
und noch sind sie nicht ganz austauschbar..
"Noch eine Sache: bla bla" klingt gut
"Noch einen Gegenstand: bla bla" klingt hässlich
humble remnant
ja
icy flax
als ich noch ein Objekt dabei hätte
humble remnant
genau
"der Gegenstand" entspricht etwas, das man quasi in den Griff nehmen kann
hmm warte eigentlich nicht
Autos usw zählen zu Gegenständen
icy flax
sowas wäre Ding, oder?
white scarab
aber unbedingt muss es körperlich sein
I don't think so
humble remnant
der Gegenstand?
white scarab
yup
white scarab
Gegenstand der Forschung
icy flax
Ding ist auch größegemäß unbeschränkt
@humble remnant
"größegemäß " ich finde dieses Wort im Wörterbuch nicht
white scarab
not sure
white scarab
but it can be used as "subject/object" that's not necessarily material
lk de en Gegenstand des Gesprächs sein
cosmic wraithBOT
white scarab
🤷
humble remnant
aber
würde man da nicht lieber "Thema" sagen
keine Ahnung
ich kann kein Deutsch
white scarab
depends how fancy you want to sound i guess
humble remnant
i suppose
i would rather die than say gegenstand eines Gesprächs
Gegenstand der Forschung makes sense bc i see it kinda like Gegenwart
but
long whale
@humble remnant It's not something you'd use in everyday conversation, but open any newspaper (of the more serious kind) and I bet it's going to come up in the context of what heads of state were talking about at a meeting. :)
cosmic wraithBOT
celest frost
Gesprächsgegenstand is fine, but you'd not see it in casual speech, but rather in formal situations/environments
humble remnant
Gehoben Ass
celest frost
wdym with that
trim cypress
Hallo
Warum sagen wir „sehr interessant”, aber „etwas Interessantes”. Warum im zweiten Fall ist das Adjektiv „interessant” ein Substantiv geworden anstatt von einem normalen prädikativen Adjektiv. Und warum dieses zusätzliche -es ?
autumn sapphire
warum dieses zusätzliche -es ?
weil adjektiven dekliniert werden müssen
Warum im zweiten Fall ist das Adjektiv „interessant” ein Substantiv geworden anstatt von einem normalen prädikativen Adjektiv
um ein prädikative adjektiv zu haben muss da ein bindewort (sein, werden...) geben. "Etwas Interessantes" nutzt man als eigene einheit als nomen (deswegen wird es effektiv wie ein substantiv benutzt: es ist eins). Da könnte man auch nur "etwas" nutzen, aber will möchten die zusätliche information geben, das es nicht mal ein beliebiges etwas ist, sondern etwas, was interessant ist, "etwas Interessantes", oder "ein interessant__es__ Etwas"
thorn pelican
hli dass etwas sächlich ist
pure spade
long whale
Choose the right preposition and the right form of the definite article (where it says d__) or the right pronoun (b), resp. the right ending for the possessive (k). :) @pure spade
Does that help?
final wigeon
Die undeklinierte Form welch hat nicht die gleiche grammatikalische Verwendung als all, oder?
Egal wenn man all oder alle, allen usw benutzen will, belibt der Rest normalerweise gleich. Wie in all meine Träume und alle meine Träume. welch, andererseits, scheint mir einen Einfluss auf die nachfolgenden Wörter bzw Artikeln hinzudeuten. Wie zwischen und mit welch himmlishcer Bewegung tanzte sie und und mit welcher himmlischen Bewegung tanzte sie. Liege ich falsch darauf?
humble remnant
mit welch himmlischer Bewegung klingt für mich wie "with what heavenly movements", mit welcher himmlischen Bewegung klingt für mich wie "with which heavenly movements"
also dekliniert ist "welcher" eher auf Fragen bezogen
"welch" ist ein Verstärkungswort
glaub ich
inner marten
I was reading up on gender in German, and I cam across someone talking about genus versus gender. They claimed (in the context of things like der Student / die Studentin) that the standard-gendered version of a word is often used even when you know the gender of a person but are not specifically trying to gender the word. I'm curious how true this is. I wouldn't be surprised if introductory texts just didn't deal with that detail in order to ensure that learners actually learn it.
autumn sapphire
i reckon "sie ist Student" would just be considered wrong and possibly sexist
inner marten
Hrm. Perhaps. I suppose actively contradicting something/someone you -already gendered- would probs be weird
bronze garnet
i wouldn't read that as wrong or sexist
inner marten
No?
autumn sapphire
interesting. I've never come across such a case tbh. I don't think gendered nouns are an "extra" thing you can add to be nice if you want to do so
unique dune
well the sexism in that regard only comes in when u just say "die Studenten" because it can be understood as excluding female students
thats why its common to say die Student*innen instead
inner marten
Oh! Sehr interresant.
bronze garnet
i would still read that as "both male and female students" but I'm aware there are different understandings of that
sly ferry
as long as you don't use Studierende you're good
unique dune
yeah same risk
autumn sapphire
d* Studierendinnen
unique dune
👁️
autumn sapphire
what happened to your other eye
inner marten
I feel like the sexism in "sie ist Student" isn't so much in the mis-gendering as in the attempt to disparage via misgendering. Insulting someone by calling them another gender says a lot more about your mindset than them, to my mind.
unique dune
wdym other eye
inner marten
Why should we not use Studierende?
bronze garnet
idk i see "Student" as "any Student" and "Studentin" as "specifically female student"
inner marten
Is it like Fraulein?
sand vine
d* Studierendinnen
@autumn sapphire what's wrong with this term, or Studierenden?
bronze garnet
its like "someone who is studying" and to me its just a longer form of the more simple "Student"
i actually see it in a ton of texts written by international students
sly ferry
studierend is the present participle, it implies that they are studying right now as you refer to them
but that's not the case in like 99% of the cases it's used
inner marten
Ah! A studyer. So, if I were, say, talking about the people in a library and asking you not to disturb them, that might be a good time to use Studierende, since they are not just students, they are people who are presently...studenting?
autumn sapphire
i wonder how much it would trigger you to learn that "student" comes from the present participle in latin :>
sand vine
Doesnt studieren imply the state of you being enrolled in a uni
While a studier would be lernenden
bronze garnet
yeah and then we face the problem of "studieren" pretty much just describing the status of being a student
autumn sapphire
yes ZF
in fact i think the arguments against the term that have been voiced so far are a bit weak to say the least
white scarab
in der kneipe sitzen biertrinkende Studierende
sand vine
You're right its confusing spoken
inner marten
So what usually follows?
autumn sapphire
nothing, that's the joke
anyway i've only seen studierende and studentinnen used by institutions and stuff like that
white scarab
Liebe Studierenden, Studentinnen und Studenten und Student-Innen.
inner marten
So does it imply that they are a studyer -of- something?
white scarab
its a horrible gender neutral term that came to be after some people decided that calling a group of students students was sexist
so they came with the Partizip I construction instead, which in some cases looks dumb as hell
inner marten
Hrm. Probably just something I don't have the experience with the language to see as weird yet
Toll. Danke.
autumn sapphire
its a horrible gender neutral term that came to be after some people decided that calling a group of students students was sexist
@white scarab the oddest thing to me is that plural in german doesn't even have genders proper
white scarab
🤷
long whale
i reckon "sie ist Student" would just be considered wrong and possibly sexist
@autumn sapphire Seems to depend a lot on where people grew up. A friend of mine studied engineering in the GDR, and she'll say "Ich bin Ingenieur". Apparently, they felt the gendered form to be sexist. 🤷
inner marten
Is that a French ending?
long whale
Hm? Yes, but you'd expect a woman to say "Ich bin Ingenieurin".
inner marten
Ah. I had not seen the original word, yet.
Side question, I'm reading up on nicht and its placement in a sentence, and I gotta say, I'm a little confused.
bronze garnet
Yeah I can see why she would see it like that, differentiating her from male engineers
long whale
Mm. Well, the general idea is: you place "nicht" in front of the word you'd like to negate. If it's at the end, it negates the whole sentence. And to negate a noun, you usually use "kein*" (This is no/not a car - Das ist kein Auto). @inner marten
inner marten
I get that. But there are things like Sie heißt nicht Maria. Could that not go either way?
long whale
What do you mean "either way"?
inner marten
I could negate the name Maria specifically, or the whole sentence. Sie heißt Maria nicht, vs Sie heißt nicht Maria.
long whale
Um, no. Only "Sie heißt nicht Maria" is correct. The other one doesn't work. 🤷
white scarab
there are a few rules about it and they're confusing as hell
because putting it before specific informations negates the whole sentence, it doesn't need to be at the end
inner marten
In English, they look the same to my brain. Negating that her name is Maria looks...exactly the same to English brain as negating that her name is Maria. Like. Her name is not(Maria) versus...... Not(her name is Maria) -(which becomes)> Her name is not Maria.
Er. She is called
long whale
Really? I mean, you know a lot more about this than I do, @white scarab but it seems to me it does work, at least sometimes: Ich fahre nicht nach Berlin vs. Nicht ich fahre nach Berlin, sondern Karl.
white scarab
i don't know a lot more, i gave up trying to understand it properly cause it makes literally no sense
inner marten
I suppose:
She is not called Maria
Vs.
Maria is not the thing that she is called
?
But we simply don't -make- that distinction in English without just writing it out like I just did.
white scarab
Ich konnte meinen Vater gestern wegen eines Termins nicht pünktlich am Bahnhof abholen.
this still negates the whole sentence
apparently
Ich kann mich heute wegen einer Konferenz nicht um meinen Kollegen kümmern.
this too
long whale
But... correct me if there's something I don't see, but it seems to me there is exactly 1 single spot in both these sentences where "nicht" can go - there is no choice, is there? @white scarab
white scarab
Ich kann mich heute nicht wegen einer Konferenz um meinen Kollegen kümmern, sondern weil meine Mutti krank ist.
long whale
Ugh. That one would need a 2nd "nicht. After "Konferenz". Otherwise it makes no sense. 🤷
inner marten
Goodness. You couldn't just do one?
white scarab
no i didn't read that sentence properly, doing something else right now, one sec
long whale
No. And it would be the same in English, I think: I can't take care of my colleagues today, not because of a conference, but because my mother is ill.
inner marten
Oh. I was trying to parse that as "I can't take care of my colleague for a conference today, because my mother is ill.""
autumn sapphire
i never had much of a problem with nicht placement 🤔 anyway don't we have a faq on it?
faq search nicht
stoic mauveBOT
stoic mauveBOT
white scarab
thats a2 nicht
inner marten
Ohhhh.
white scarab
@long whale but yeah, those are the spots where it fits, but that's sometimes confusing as hell
inner marten
That does help at least some
Verbs that don't require a subject tend to end a clause, and so nicht follows those verbs and looks like the end because there happens to be nothing left.
white scarab
@long whale like uhh, another example, "Sie passt diesen Dienstag am Abend nicht auf die Tochter ihrer Nachbarin auf."
inner marten
I guess in the case of definite articles, it's probably just supposed to sound weird or something to say Ich kenne nicht den Film
I can accept that. Real easy. Definite article--follow the negated thing, Easy rule.
plain umbra
@inner marten I find this link pretty useful as a basic overview of these kind of things:
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~deutsch/Grammatik/WordOrder/WordOrder.html
And at the bottom of this one you can see some concepts about nicht that might help you:
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~deutsch/Grammatik/WordOrder/WordOrder1.html
Because when it comes to nicht, it's a very dependent word in terms of word order. A lot of the other word placement influences where nicht can be placed, so it becomes more complex.
So understanding more about the whole sentence helps.
inner marten
Sehr danke
long whale
@long whale like uhh, another example, "Sie passt diesen Dienstag am Abend nicht auf die Tochter ihrer Nachbarin auf."
@white scarab What are you trying to tell me? I accept it's confusing. 🤷
white scarab
that its supposedly negating the whole sentence
plain umbra
And I'll also add, since it's something that's so complex without a simple rule, and since most of the rest of the sentence can be learned with simple rules, it's fine to learn nicht placement by "getting a feel for it". Usually it's better to learn rules for the main sentence structure, but for negation, it's actually not too hard to pick up from hearing a lot of German.
inner marten
I'll keep that in mind
I think that in English we tend to negate the verb, adding helper words. I learn becomes I do not learn. I sleep with him becomes I do not sleep with him.
So I think this is a matter orlf my brain -really wanting to think about night with the verb-
Nicht*
And so it thinks it sees a rule like following a verb that doesn't exist.
plain umbra
Ja. The helper do in English is a big obstacle for a lot of English speakers.
Maybe focussing on getting rid of that with positive sentences first will help.
inner marten
Probably! That could help a lot. Thanks. That's what I was just looking at with something like Ich lerne and Ich lerne nicht. A ltlot of my initial time thinking about how to translate something is thinking about how much of my English is just... unnecessary helper words
And if you can de-modify things down to Present Simple tense, much of that evaporates
The more I think about it the more I realize we tend to just revolve negations around the verb in the Nominative and Accusative cases. Even in other cases the negation and the verb could almost be seen as separable but a unit. Counterexamples are always kind of formal construction. I don't know of a reason vs. I know of no reason.
I wonder if that's a residual Germanic construction. Hrm.
celest frost
and then there's the "positive do helper" that isn't available in German, but I wish it were
fervent kernel
Can I still ask questions here?
near folio
du kannst immer in #questions oder #questions-2 Fragen stellen
fervent kernel
Would anybody explain how do I change the noun direct object into the pronoun direct object?
celest frost
it says how to do it in the table at the top of the page
first you have to figure out the case of the underlined word and then you look up the correct pronoun (gender + case) in the table
hint: ||1) Akkusativ + weiblich
2) Akkusativ + weiblich
3) Akkusativ + weiblich
4) Akkusativ + neutral
5) Akkusativ + männlich||
fervent kernel
@celest frost What kind of pronouns?
celest frost
Nominativ: ich, du, er/sie/es, wir, ihr, sie, Sie
Akkusativ: mich, dich, ihn/sie/es, uns, euch, sie, Sie
Dativ: mir, dir, ihm/ihr/ihm, uns, euch, ihnen, Ihnen
since the exercise always asks for pronouns for direct objects, it's always Akkusativ
you started correctly already, according to the words you wrote with your pencil
"die Bluse" is female and since its the direct object, we need Akkusativ, which is "sie".
same goes for "eine Jacke".
same goes for "die Zeitung".
"das Bett" is neutral, however
fervent kernel
@celest frost Thanks!
bright kraken
Why is “Die” used to start the second sentence, and not “sie?”
“Was ist denn mit Maria? Die läuft so komisch.”
sand vine
Sie is permissable as well. Sometimes der and die are used in place of er und sie, which could, depending on context, come off as bit more distant or even rude.
Die läuft so komisch would have the tone of "That girl walks funny", as compared to sie läuft so komisch, which corresponds to she walks funny
celest frost
the difference is indeed just that "der/die" is slightly derogative
it sees common use in negative statements like "Der ist doch verrückt! / Der spinnt doch! / Die will mich doch verkohlen!"
glossy marsh
It objectifies somewhat, makes them less than. ^
buoyant coral
When does present perfect use sein?
Ich habe meinen Hut gefunden. I found my hat.
Er ist alt geworden. He's gotten old.
For these 2 one uses Haben and the other Sein
I don't know when to use haben or sein for present perfect (I don't know what you call this in German sorry)
sand vine
Present perfect ~ perfekt
Past perfect ~ plusquamperfekt
plain umbra
faq past tense
stoic mauveBOT
plain umbra
This is a simplified explanation.
If you want a more thorough explanation, just check out Hammer's or Modern German Grammar. I think they both have good detailed explanations of it.
buoyant coral
Thank you Base
Present perfect ~ perfekt
Past perfect ~ plusquamperfekt
@sand vine danke schön!
buoyant coral
Mein Bruder hat mir mein Fahrrad genommen - My brother took my bike.
Can a native please explain why there's a mir here?
near folio
@buoyant coral sieht wie ein Beispiel von dativus possessivus aus. Hier ist mehr Info dazu:
near folio
es könnte auch einfach ein Synonym von wegnehmen sein
buoyant coral
Diese Satzen sind auch Perfekt mit Sein? @near folio
glossy marsh
Mein Bruder hat mir mein Fahrrad genommen - My brother took my bike.
Can a native please explain why there's a mir here?
There's added information with mir.
Mein Bruder hat mein Fahrrad genommen.
My brother took my bike.
Mein Bruder hat mir mein Fahrrad genommen.
My brother took my bike from me. Your sister could have been using your bike and he could have taken it from her. Here we know it's you who had it.
buoyant coral
Ah thanks for the explanation Casca!
long whale
I warmly recommend "wegnehmen" instead of "nehmen". "jemandem etwas nehmen" is pretty dramatic, existential and above all final - you'll never get it back (and the verb is therefore rarely used). "jemandem etwas wegnehmen" is the usual one for "to take something from someone" - it indicates unhappiness/unwillingness on the part of the person it's taken from, while leaving open the possibility of their getting it back. :)
ember mason
Ich liebe diese kleine Unterschiede
hearty blaze
"Der Koch macht gerade Orangensaft"
"Der Koch macht Orangensaft"
What's is the difference between these two sentences?
How does 'gerade' change the meaning?
glossy marsh
The former implies it is happening now.
The other could also hold true throughout the day.
Without gerade, it can also imply that the chef makes his own orange juice.
Q: Does the chef make his own juice?
A: The chef makes his own juice.
A w/ gerade: The chef is currently making his own juice (as we speak).
hearty blaze
Ohh, thank you! @glossy marsh
pale moat
How do you say "to toast to something" or "to submit a toast to something"?
timid vine
auf etwas anstoßen
pale moat
does that work for people too? like "Ich anstoße bescheiden auf Nicholas Alexander, dass er mit Erfolg Warcraft III raubkopiert hat"
timid vine
yes. However, anstoßen is seperable. And also if you use it in direct speech you usually just say "auf ... " we don't actually say "I toast to..."
so it would be just " Auf Nicholas Alexander! ...
pale moat
Ah okee
and is "dass" the correct conjunction to use there?
also, is "Ich stoße bescheiden auf Nicholas Alexander an" technically correct even if you usually don't say the verb?
inner marten
@inner marten I find this link pretty useful as a basic overview of these kind of things:
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~deutsch/Grammatik/WordOrder/WordOrder.html
And at the bottom of this one you can see some concepts about nicht that might help you:
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~deutsch/Grammatik/WordOrder/WordOrder1.html
@plain umbra This is by far the most helpful and fascinating treatment of word order in German I've yet found. I feel like it's the first time I've been exposed to someone having sat down and explained with any sort of competence what the heck is going on in German sentences, and suddenly they don't feel half so alien anymore. Things that seem really strange have obvious and sensible parallels in English that just...didn't get explained well enough to see. Things like treating predicate structures as separable seem senseless until you realize we do it in English all the time with things like, "I spoke to him firmly." "I asked him the question gently." Now I'm seeing it all over. Every source I've ever been given on predicate structures has treated the verb and only the verb as the predicate, and it makes so much more sense when you learn that modern predicate theory includes the entire predicate construction, and ~shocker~, it was pioneered for formal logic by a German mathematician. Suddenly I don't feel like my brain is trying to juggle the modifying stuff in the middle while waiting for the predicate to complete to understand it.
TLDR: Thank you.
plain umbra
@inner marten No problem. I'm really glad it helps!
timid vine
@pale moat yes and yes. However, I am not sure if "bescheiden" would be used with anstoßen. Maybe "leise". But I can't think right now, maybe another native should check. @long whale you awake? 😇
pale moat
Oh alright, thank you!!
long whale
@timid vine @pale moat Yes, I was wondering about "bescheiden" (modestly)... ;)
celest frost
you can use "bescheiden" then
an alternative would be "in aller Bescheidenheit"
but maybe you were looking for "solemnly"? That would be "feierlich"
long whale
That's correct, but I definitely wouldn't use the word in the context of toasting someone - I agree, D00meriksen.
celest frost
yeah, "bescheiden" sounds weird, because you don't drink a toast to someone with cheap liquor 🤔
celest frost
then it definitely works
pale moat
Great haha
inner marten
Hallooo. Friendly neighborhood confused person here, once again. I was given the sentence "My house is between these houses" to translate, and my first instinct given what I've learned about word order so far was to say, "Mein Haus ist diesen Häusern zwischen." The correct answer (amongst selections) was "Mein Haus ist zwischen diesen Häusern." (I struggled with Accusative or Dative for the houses, but I don't think that effects word order.) If I'm not mistaken, ist zwischen should be the predicate construction, which led me to my first instinct. I'm not sure if their construction is a selective re-ordering to stress these houses, or some rule for prepositional phrases.
thorn pelican
prepositipns only go to the end when they are part of what's called a seperable verb
otherwise they go in front of the noun
an example of a separable verb is anrufen. anrufen is the infinitive and in some contexts you need to write anrufen, e.g. in subordinate clauses. but otherwise you write ich rufe dich an.
whereas normal location prepositions are similar to englisch.
das Bild hängt an der Wand.
celest frost
declarations of location are preceded by a preposition (hence its name). "zwischen" can be used for both Dativ and Akkusativ, depending on what you need. Akkusativ is used for actions while Dativ is used for states.
Since nothing is done with the houses and we only care for where they are, we use Dativ. Plural of "diese" in Dativ-Case is "diesen".
Another example would be "Ich stelle mich zwischen diese Häuser". Here the houses are part of an action, hence we use Akkusativ.
white scarab
(there are some that you can use as a postposition but that's higher level stuff)
celest frost
Verbs that signal states and thus cannot take an object take Dativ instead. Examples are "sein, liegen, hängen, stehen"
thorn pelican
til @white scarab do you have any recommended readings for that?
tardy oxide
can I make a sentence that starts with "indem wer auto faehrt"
or do I have to use something else than "wer"
celest frost
possibly, what's the context?
tardy oxide
this is the original sentence
wer Auto fährt, steht regelmäßig im Stau
I want to make it a sentence that has indem in it
celest frost
I see
"indem" is used to tell how to achieve something
"Man kann regelmäßig im Stau stehen, indem man öfter Auto fährt"
this example sounds slightly sarcastic, because "im Stau stehen" is not really a benefit
tardy oxide
Its a part of an homework and yeah it sounds silly as hell :(
I was thinking to use man as well
makes more sense
celest frost
it sounds better if you can give it a positive spin somehow
by saying the opposite for example
"Man steht nicht regelmäßig im Stau, indem man nicht mit dem Auto fährt". Now it sounds like solid advice.
quartz lantern
Nicht-nicht, that's a slap on the fingers
celest frost
pff, dann eben "Man kann das im-Stau-stehen vermeiden, indem man nicht mit dem Auto fährt"
quartz lantern
Ich würde ja einfach was anderes vorschlagen; "You'll get fast by, driving a car"
celest frost
that's pretty good, I wasn't aware how much creative freedom they had for this homework
tardy oxide
damn those are pretty nice suggestions :D
celest frost
anyway "indem" is positive, so it should be used for something constructive, like advice on how to do something
quartz lantern
Point taken, but so far i haven't seen a class which didn't account for "some natives told me it sounds weird"
tardy oxide
can I ask another question :d
celest frost
even 2 if you dare
tardy oxide
Fremdsprachen zu lernen macht mir Spaß
or
Fremdsprachen zu lernen macht es mir Spaß
celest frost
first one
tardy oxide
why thouuuugh
tardy oxide
so when the zu sentence is in the start, using es is a no no?
celest frost
"Es macht mir Spaß Fremdsprachen zu lernen" also works
celest frost
Fremdsprachen zu lernen macht es mir Spaß
I think they're asking why this is wrong, but my example with a different word order is correct
tardy oxide
I dont really get the difference why we use es in this one
"Es macht mir Spaß Fremdsprachen zu lernen" also works
@celest frost
celest frost
Es is a pronoun
glossy marsh
Fremdsprachen zu lernen macht es mir Spaß
@tardy oxide
It makes me happy to learn languages ->
Es macht mich -> It makes me
glücklich -> happy
Sprachen zu lernen -> to learn languages
celest frost
"Es macht mir Spaß" - Es is a pronoun that needs to be described later, hence you need the infinitive with zu
but you can also just replace "es" with "Fremdsprachen zu lernen" whihc is how you get "Fremdsprachen zu lernen macht mir Spaß"
celest frost
happy to help and hear!
dry lava
Do I need an article in such a situation?
- Schau dieses Tier an
- Hah, (eine) lustige Katze
- Look at this animal
- Huh, funny cat
glossy marsh
Do I need an article in such a situation?
- Schau dieses Tier an
- Hah, (eine) lustige Katze
@dry lava
*Schau dir dieses Tier an
Hah, lustige Katze -> This works colloquially
When are the times you use "genau"?
@unkempt spoke It meansexactlyorexact.
Yes, exactly!
Ja, genau!
That's really exact.
Das ist aber sehr genau.
You can use genau to mean exactly when agreeing with someone.
unkempt spoke
Ah!!! Like an enhancer of sorts
Thank you!
Is it the same in this sentence?
"Informieren Sie sich zunächts genau über die Prüfung, so können Sie den Lernstoff eingrenzen"
glossy marsh
Here it means in an exact/precise manner.
unkempt spoke
so it can be "exactly" but also "precisely"
So in resume, its a word to affirm something?
glossy marsh
With formal writing, genau would emphasise diving into more detail; precision is the translation here, yes.
unkempt spoke
Ahhhh Thank you so much
unkempt spoke
Another thing. What was the rule again for words that have "zu" in the middle? like "einzuplanen"
Was it just if Id normally add "zu" there?
Like for example when a connecting sentence has "um" after a comma
autumn sapphire
if you add zu to a verb it comes before it, but if the verb is separable you put it between the prefix and the rest of the verb
stehen -> zu stehen
verstehen -> zu verstehen (inseparable)
aufstehen -> aufzustehen (separable)
unkempt spoke
Ah thanks!
light ivy
unkempt spoke
What's the usage of "Dadurch"?
Is it an equivalent of "because of X"?
and also "indem" with Nomen
jaunty cave
er hat viel gelernt, dadurch hat er die Prüfung bestanden.
er hat die Prüfung dadurch bestanden, dass er viel gelernt hat.
er hat die Prüfung bestanden, indem er viel gelernt hat.
dadurch is like "by doing that"
by learning a lot, he passed the exam
i didnt understand the last question of yours
@unkempt spoke
any native speaker can correct me if im wrong
knotty flax
er hat viel gelernt, dadurch hat er die Prüfung bestanden.
er hat die prüfung bestanden dadurch, dass er viel gelernt hat.
er hat die prüfung bestanden, indem er viel gelernt hat.
@jaunty cave er hat die Prüfung dadurch bestanden, dass...
unkempt spoke
@jaunty cave oh that's right! Thank you
And also @knotty flax
marble trout
sorry to interrupt but i have a question but i don't know how this works
long whale
You just ask. :) @marble trout
marble trout
oh, i just want to know how to decline nouns in the genitive and dative
long whale
Genitiv: fem. nouns don't change, masc. and neuter nouns get -[e]s in singular, in plural, the noun doesn't change.
Here are some rules about when to add in the "e": https://www.duden.de/sprachwissen/sprachratgeber/Genitiv-auf-s-oder-es
marble trout
so like der hunde apfel
long whale
This is correct, but a very old form. These days, you'd say "der Apfel der Hunde".
marble trout
so the thing that is owned comes first then the owner
long whale
Correct.