questions-2

[willow socket]

https://www.duden.de/sprachwissen/sprachratgeber/deren-derer

yeah, according to this they would be exchangeable in your examples then, right? (was wrong about derer not being possible as relativepronoun)

[plush pelican]

If it's a Relativpronomen, yes...as far as I know

[willow socket]

Where they wouldn't be exchangeable is like the sentence with the dog: Die Frau, deren (not derer) Hund ich mag, ist schön.

[plush pelican]

moment

Hammer's German Grammar 5.4.1(c)(ii):

Here, it says "deren" is preferred in that situation, not that "derer" is impossible

[willow socket]

If it's just a whole-ass object, relative or not, they are exchangeable. In your two examples:
Meine Entscheidung wird Folgen haben, derer/deren ich mir sehr bewusst bin.
Die Frauen, derer/deren wir heute gedenken, waren wichtige Politikerinnen.

derer/deren are genitive objects, not possessive modifiers.

In the case:
Die Frau, deren (not derer) Hund ich mag, ist schön.
'deren' is a possessive relative pronoun on the dog. So derer doesn't work.

The last sentence in the picture you posted is explaining this (presented as a rule and not a preference in the Duden article)

[plush pelican]

?

is explaining "this"?

The last sentence says it's "preferred"

[icy flax]

Wasnt derer only for plural?

[willow socket]

explaining what I said in my message (summary of Duden explanation)

[fallow ledge]

im gonna tap out on this one, i can hardly remember how to conjugate these

[fervent kernel]

that's what I'm thinking as well, but in the example we also have "authority" which is not plural but has feminine genus

[plush pelican]

So this is the thing: These are the kinds of edge cases that are so rare that you never get fully practised with them

so you kind of half-forget the rules

[fallow ledge]

everytime i form a sentence like
the woman, whose dog i love
i keep using wessen and deren

[plush pelican]

wessen?

Die Frau, wessen Hund ich liebe?

[fallow ledge]

its probably not great german, im conjugating was/whose, so im probably thinking of it as two difference sentences.

[willow socket]

yes, that's what I'm saying. In Duden, this 'preference' is presented as a rule. In Hammer's it says 'preference'. IRL I have only heard 'deren', never derer, in the case of the noun (being posessed) directly following, which is why I would go with that.

[plush pelican]

I've seen other times when Duden seems to adhere to an older, more prescriptivist understanding of things, and Hammer's seems to be open to a newer, more descriptivist understanding of things. 🤷‍♂️

[willow socket]

However in your sentences this clearly isn't the case, so my earlier idea that deren would work better in them was wrong. Both are fine.

[plush pelican]

now I have to review again why they are both fine, 😅

[fervent kernel]

irl you often say "denen" but it seems more colloquial

[icy flax]

||Der Dativ ist dem Genitiv sein Tod||?

[plush pelican]

I'm rewriting the Duden article to work through it:

• If the genitive Relativpronomen in a Relativsatz stands by itself, you can use either deren/deren

Die Argumente, deren/derer sich der dicke Dozente bediente, hatten etwas Bestechendes.

• If the genitive Relativpronomen in a Relativsatz is a Genitivattribut, meaning it is attached to a noun, you always use deren (according to Duden):

Den Schauspiereln, deren Leistung selbst dieses eher mittelmäßiges Stück zu einem Publikumserfolg gemacht hat, zollte auch die ausländische Kritik höchste Anerkennung.

Übrigens: Duden has fucking terrible example sentences 🤣

[fervent kernel]

I think in my mind it kinda looks like derer/deren

[plush pelican]

What is this use of "die ausländische Kritik"? It's like anthropomorphizing the criticisms themselves and thereby indirectly referencing the Kritiker?

I also assume it's more than one "Kritik", like multiple reviews

[icy flax]

Where is that btw? I am trying to scroll up and find it :/

[fervent kernel]

@icy flax last example

[plush pelican]

If we translate this sentence overly literally, is it like

"The extraordinary authority, over which the Catholic bishops in Poland delighted themselves"?

[fervent kernel]

Die katholischen Bischöfe erfreuen sich [an einer ungewöhnlichen Autorität] ⬅️ (derer)
[Die Leistung der Schauspielerin] (Deren Leistung) ➡️ [...] zollte auch höchste Anerkennung

[willow socket]

die ausländische Kritik zollte den Schauspielern höchste Anerkennung -- the foreign critics gave the actors/actresses high recognition.
(slight undertone of 'couldn't deny' or 'were forced to admit')

[willow socket]

not delighted themselves, but 'enjoy' in the sense of 'he enjoyed a good reputation' (not that he 'delighted' in it but a fancy way of saying have something good)

[fallow ledge]

does jemandem Anerkennung Zollen have a negative subtext?

[plush pelican]

I don't know the name for this, but this is an example of that thing that happens in both gehobenes Deutsch and in elevated English, where we suddenly start making everything into singular nouns and refer to it as a more abstract concept

"The foreign critique" rather than "the foreign reviewers themselves"

[plush pelican]

I would've thought it could only be positive?

[fallow ledge]

zoll makes me think of customs, a bridge toll. paying those kinds of fee, like a debt. Im trying to figure out the subtext

lolo filled some in, forced to admit couldnt deny

[willow socket]

it could imply that the person 'giving' is begrudging, but it's not negative. It comes from paying a tribute ('zoll' is customs/tolls)

[plush pelican]

I think the "negative undertones" are mostly from the Relativsatz where they're calling the play "mediocre", right?

[willow socket]

didn't read this, but yes exactly this

[plush pelican]

I'm glad we're all learning today, 😅

[willow socket]

they chose level C3 example sentences

[plush pelican]

C4 🤯

[fervent kernel]

@plush pelican

[willow socket]

I suppose if you've made it this far to read the difference between derer/deren, they assume you can handle it 😂

[plush pelican]

yeah, what are you doing there? 😅

[plush pelican]

Nah, I think some people simply get used to speaking only in "posh" and forget how to give simple examples anymore.

[fervent kernel]

I've tried to rearrange the sentences in a way that exposes the object and their pronoun substitutes

[fallow ledge]

bruh, i need a dictionary for that first one

[plush pelican]

Thank you all for your help 🙏 @fervent kernel @willow socket @fallow ledge

[plush pelican]

you mean, because of the bedienen with Genitiv?

[signal cipher]

Some German adverbial conjunctions are mentioned as particles?

[fallow ledge]

yeah because of bedienen

[signal cipher]

Are there difference?

[plush pelican]

Me, too, 😄

[signal cipher]

Allerdings for example

[fallow ledge]

and dozent, i forgot what that is

[plush pelican]

Dozent is like a proctor for an exam, right?

nope, college lecturer?

[willow socket]

lecturer but not necessarily with a professor/dr. title

[plush pelican]

This is referring back to the website I linked yesterday?

[fallow ledge]

dwds provides https://www.dwds.de/wb/Dozent?o=dozent

[signal cipher]

Do you mean grammis

[plush pelican]

Ah, yes, someone who has "habilitated" themselves, 😅

[plush pelican]

joa

[willow socket]

Herr Dr. phil. habil. Müller ist Dozent für Geschichte des Mittelalters
Can we PLEASE just call this guy professor already? 😂 Germany has super strict rules around titles. In the states this guy would be referred to as professor

[fallow ledge]

its okay you already have the dictionary open, you can search another word

[plush pelican]

I mean, I did

[fallow ledge]

me too

[plush pelican]

apparently it's a verb exclusively meaning "to qualify to become a professor". So that's fun.

[willow socket]

Yes it (a Habilitation) is a specific post-doctoral academic status. You have to write it similarly to (but obviously 'more' than) doctoral thesis.

[signal cipher]

Are conjugative particles and adverbial conjunctions same?

I am not sure about the word conjugative. I mean Konnektiv

[plush pelican]

Not sure how many people will know what "conjugative particles" as a name means, 😅 Grammis is a very technical website

I myself will have to look it up

https://grammis.ids-mannheim.de/systematische-grammatik/410

[signal cipher]

I guess their difference is just about positions which they are written

[signal cipher]

But maybe someone knows another difference

[plush pelican]

Apparently, there are multiple ways of classifying things

and different systems draw the line for the terms differently

It specifically says

"With a different drawing of the lines between the classes of 'adverb' and 'particles', Konnektivpartikel can also be included among Adverbs. Sometimes units are also categorized as conjunctions."

"In the Handbook of German connectors, those units which are here labeled as "Konnektivpartikel" are included with other adverbial units and particles into an overarching class of 'konnektintegriertern Konnektoren', also called Adverbkonnektoren."

So...it's all kind of fluid

it depends on how you define things and where you draw the lines between categories.

But as to how they define "Konnektivpartikel"

[signal cipher]

Oh I thought they have equivalent

But it seems like they are just named differently

[plush pelican]

"Under 'Konnektivpartikel', we pool undeclined units which function as clause-connecting units -- like Konjunktoren (coordinating conjunctions) and Subjunktoren (subordinating conjunctions)."

Here, I think they mean, that Konnektivpartikel are "similar to" coordinating conjunctions and subordinating conjunctions, not that Konnektivpartikel are coordinating conjunctions and subordinating conjunctions.

In contrast to the Konjunktoren and Subjunktoren, they (Konnektivpartikel) are, however usually integrated into the second clause:

Der rote Alfa gehört ihm, der Morgan hingegen ihr.

[signal cipher]

They are probably similar with coordinating conjunctions since they can be written in left außenfeld

[fervent kernel]

do you have some example words for them?

[plush pelican]

They thereby create specific content relationships between 2 Sachverhalten (facts?), like, for example, konzessiv (trotzdem, dennoch), adversativ (demgegenüber, allerdings, jedoch, hingegen) and temporal (inzwischen, währenddessen, hernach). What is shared among most Konnektivpartikel is the possibility of placement in the Vorfeld and in the Mittelfeld of the second clause. Depending on their further positioning possibilities, you can then divide them into further topological subclasses.

[plush pelican]

https://grammis.ids-mannheim.de/systematische-grammatik/410

[signal cipher]

Allerdings, in der Filmversion gehen diese Nuancen vollkommen verloren.

[plush pelican]

coordinating conjunctions cannot always be placed in the Mittelfeld, though

"aber" can

"und" and "oder" can't, I don't think

[fervent kernel]

I've never heard of this type of word lol

but then, I've also never really studied much grammar

[plush pelican]

it's a term from the website Grammis, which is basically professional linguists writing in very posh linguist-speak

[fervent kernel]

yeah

[plush pelican]

Even knowing German, it takes a bit to decipher the words,

[fervent kernel]

it's university level language analysis

[plush pelican]

Makes for good practice of breaking down posh sentences, though

[signal cipher]

Oh it has a list

[plush pelican]

These are the words that can "share" position 1 with something else, among other things

[signal cipher]

I don’t see it

[plush pelican]

You had to click on the "Liste der Konnektivpartikeln" thing to open the list up

[fervent kernel]

I think in shool you just learn those as conjunctions

[plush pelican]

School doesn't get that specific

which is sort of the problem

Boris is trying to see how the very generic and not very specific terms used commonly like "conjunction" compares to shit like "Konnektivpartikel", which is more specific and divides things much more specifically.

[fervent kernel]

how do you use dahingegen 🤔

[plush pelican]

oh god, is this like a da- compound? like "damit" or "dafür"?

[fervent kernel]

they should just use hingegen or dagegen or something else

it's an ugly word and it doesn't deserve to live

[plush pelican]

Once you start getting into the clouds, it starts getting hard to breathe

all these rare words that only happen in formal written German

[signal cipher]

I don’t think it’s da compound

[plush pelican]

not literally, but it seems similar

that's just my first impression

[fervent kernel]

my issue isn't the formal german it's that the word is just abhorrent

[plush pelican]

How do you feel about "nichtsdestotrotz"?

[fervent kernel]

this is fine

it has a purpose and a value

[plush pelican]

I thought that was itself an ugly Mischung of 2 words?

nichtsdestoweniger and trotzdem?

[fervent kernel]

I've never seen nichtsdestoweniger

it sounds like a joke word to me

[plush pelican]

The joke has become the reality

[fervent kernel]

lmao

[plush pelican]

"nichtsdestotrotz" was originally the joke combination of "nichtsdestoweniger" and "trotzdem"

and now, IT is the reality

[fervent kernel]

makes sense as the literal translation of nevertheless

[plush pelican]

so much so, that you think the original word sounds like a joke

what a turning of tables

[fervent kernel]

Unironically I think nichtsdestoweniger might make a comeback with the current anglication of German

[fervent kernel]

also 19th century humor really hits different lmao

[plush pelican]

There is a subset of words that originate from "19th century German college student boys making joke words"

[fervent kernel]

for sure

[plush pelican]

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burschensprache

[fervent kernel]

in the end this is just how language develops, it came to be such a practical word after all

[willow socket]

[plush pelican]

Vom lat. Adjektiv crassus (dick, weitgehend) wurde im 18. Jahrhundert krass übernommen, wobei die Vermischung mit nhd. graß – heute noch gebräuchlich in grässlich – eingetreten ist, so dass die studentensprachliche Benennung „ein krasser Fux“ einen jungen Studenten ohne Lebensart beschreibt.

[fervent kernel]

Dieses Wort nimmt auch alle paar jahrzehnte eine völlig unabhängige bedeutung an

Also krass war in den 0ern glaube ich genau das Gegenteil in der Jugendsprache, also "cool/verrückt/usw" aber inzwischen ist es nur noch "unglaublich/heftig" ohne die positive konnotation

[plush pelican]

Seit wann kannst du denn Deutsch? 😮

2000 Jahren?

😄

[rare jetty]

Er hat mit Jesus auf Deutsch konversiert

[whole portal]

Wasn't there a similar thing in english with "OK" really just being a quirky spelling of "all correct" (oll korrect)?

[light rain]

I hear it from some people as per on the news. But I personally prefer "nichtsdestotrotz."

[light rain]

Both are words of their own, even in English, although exchangeable.

Nichtsdestotrotz = nevertheless

Nichtsdestoweniger = nonetheless

But the second is what you do not hear all the time. I barely even hear or see "nonetheless" nowadays.

[fervent kernel]

I've seen nonetheless quite regularly but I've never seen nichtsdestoweniger

[light rain]

Been on the lookout for literature nerds. Chances are that you will hear that often.

[fiery chasm]

hello, what is the difference between anbieten and vorschlagen?

[light rain]

Anbieten = to offer something to someone.
Der Laden bietet den Kunden etwas Neues. = The shop/store is offering something new to the customers.

Vorschlagen = to suggest something to someone.
Ich schlage ihm vor, das System neu zu starten =
I am suggesting to him to restart the system.

[jade hawk]

Ich hab gerade das Verb "hereinbitten" gefunden. Darf man so etwas wie "Ich bitte Sie herein" sagen? Im Sinne von "Please come in", als Alternative zu "Bitte treten Sie ein"?

[whole portal]

Yes

[left salmon]

it would be even more polite to say Darf ich Sie hereinbitten

for example

[jade hawk]

verstanden

[dawn oxide]

also depends a bit on the situation

Grammatically it works tho

[fiery chasm]

thank you so much

[icy flax]

Zwei Journalisten stürmen in ein Gebäude auf der Suche nach einem Arzt, der in einem Skandal involviert ist. Zu ihrer Enttäuschung finden sie dort aber niemanden. Zurück im Auto sagt die Journalistin einer dritten Journalistin: "der Ort war dicht"

Bedeutet das Wort "dicht" umgangssprachlich -- und total irreführend -- dasselbe wie "leer"? ||wenn etwas dicht ist, würde ich annehmen, dass alles räumlich voll ist, ganz im Gegenteil lol||

[dawn oxide]

Ne, es kann, aber umgangsprachlich 'geschlossen' bedeuten

und halt auch undurchlässig, undurchdringlich usw

[signal cipher]

Why “als” is written in left satzklammer?

I thought it is written in mittelfeld

[signal cipher]

What is dekungsgleich exactly? A source says nullposition and left außenfeld are dekungsgleich.

Does that mean they are same thing?

[clever creek]

where you found this

[dawn oxide]

https://www.duden.de/

[clever creek]

Danke

[plush pelican]

When you're talking about subordinating conjunctions like (dass, weil, als, wenn), linguists often consider them to take the position of the linke Satzklammer, as a way of explaining why there is no linke Satzklammer for verbs to sit in, in a Nebensatz.

In this understanding, there is always a linke Satzklammer, it's just...occupied.

[signal cipher]

What about double ones

Als auch

[plush pelican]

you mean "sowohl als auch"?

[signal cipher]

No, als auch

[plush pelican]

?

When do you have "als auch" as a thing without "sowohl"?

[signal cipher]

Do both Als and Auch in left Satzklammer?

[plush pelican]

First I have to know what you're even asking about

[signal cipher]

Er kann sowohl Deutsch sprechen, “als auch” schreiben.

Are all in “” symbol in left satzklammer?

[plush pelican]

Normally with stuff like that, it's considered to be 2 main clauses where repeated words are left out in the 2nd clause.

Er kann Deutsch sprechen.
(Er kann Deutsch) schreiben.

[signal cipher]

Ich fahre gern, “wenn auch” nicht gut.

[plush pelican]

I'm not entirely sure how you diagram that, but I don't think the second part is a Nebensatz

[signal cipher]

I can’t give good examples

[plush pelican]

🤔

[signal cipher]

Can’t you think any which has double words like “wenn auch”, “Als auch”

[plush pelican]

Nobody ever asks about this shit, 😅

[plush pelican]

"als auch" I don't think is a subordinating conjunction

But there are subordinating conjunctions that have another word attached to them

Hammer's has some

[signal cipher]

Als wenn

[plush pelican]

Kaum dass wir das Wirtshaus erreicht hatten, begann es zu regnen

Noch während sie schlief…
‘Even as she slept …’

[signal cipher]

Niemals sind wir verletzlicher, als wenn wir lieben.

Do both Als and Wenn in left satzklammer

This is a good example

[plush pelican]

auf dass

[plush pelican]

I'm not sure, 😅

Nobody bothers asking such questions

I'll have to try and look into it

[signal cipher]

I don’t know how can I find this

[plush pelican]

I mean, we'd start by looking at subordinating conjunctions, right?

Grammis calls them "Subjunktoren"

[dawn oxide]

Is this stuff important to know for german learners? Lol

[plush pelican]

not really

Boris has an abiding interest in learning the exact rules to all grammar

I more just want to know what I need to know to form sentences

but it can be fun to research sometimes

[dawn oxide]

I see, seems a bit useless to know but to each their own I guess .-.

[signal cipher]

Think it like a hobby. Also there are other advantages.

[plush pelican]

I mean, to be fair, several of his questions have helped me understand some of the more remote parts of grammar better

[signal cipher]

Selam

[plush pelican]

https://grammis.ids-mannheim.de/progr@mm/5298

Here, they have put "ohne dass" all into the linke Satzklammer

So I guess both words are considered part of the "subordinating conjunction" and all go into the linke Satzklammer

[signal cipher]

Feldermodell einfach erklärt - simpleclub

https://simpleclub.com/lessons/deutsch-feldermodell-3#:~:text=Die Konjunktion des Nebensatzes (zum,%2C%20doch%2C%20aber%20und%20sondern.

[plush pelican]

Does that talk about "sowohl als auch"?

[signal cipher]

It’s adverbial I think

[plush pelican]

I think it's a coordinating conjunction, rather than subordinating

but I could be wrong on that

[signal cipher]

Niemals sind wir verletzlicher, als “wenn wir lieben.”

Niemals sind wir verletzlicher als “es.”

I think evolved in time like that

[dawn oxide]

Fair enough 😆

[signal cipher]

Than it wouldn’t occupy vorfeld

[plush pelican]

I didn't say "als auch" occupied the Vorfeld

[signal cipher]

They are written in nullstelle

[signal cipher]

Can we think on another example. Since it’s not used to connect clauses much. Und is used instead

[plush pelican]

Did you see my post above?

[plush pelican]

.

When it's a subordinating conjunction made up of 2 words, both words are in the linke Satzklammer

[signal cipher]

But sowohl Als auch is not subordinating as I know.

We can use it in mittelfeld

Boris ist sowohl gutaussehend als auch genial.

[plush pelican]

My dude, this is how you started

You were asking about why "als" is in the linke Satzklammer

"als" here is a subordinating conjunction

you're the one who then tried to say, "well what about sowohl als auch"

I am the one who said, "I don't think that's the same thing, I don't think that's a subordinating conjunction."

[signal cipher]

Don’t we talk about this

[plush pelican]

So when you were asking about "why is X in the linke Satzklammer?"

It's because X was a subordinating conjunction

And in this way of categorizing things, they think of all subordinating conjunctions as taking up the linke Satzklammer

[signal cipher]

I thought they are written in mittelfeld.

And there is no linkes Satzklammer in nebensatz

I thought like that

I was surprised when I saw Als there

[plush pelican]

That's the way I explained it to you before, because it was simpler

I'm not sure I agree with this idea of putting subordinating conjunctions into the linke Satzklammer, just so that there is always a linke Satzklammer

but, in their system, how they view and categorize things, there is always a linke Satzklammer, meaning that subordinating conjunctions must be occupying it in Nebensätze, in order to explain why verbs can't go there.

I think there might be other ways of categorizing it, but I haven't studied it enough to know those other ways

[signal cipher]

I don’t like too technical sources

And I don’t think I can find answer for that in grammis etc.

[plush pelican]

I mean, the kinds of questions you're asking require technical sources, 😅

[plush pelican]

Grammis' view is that "subordinating conjunctions occupy the linke Satzklammer in Nebensätze"

[signal cipher]

There are too technical things. I don’t like them. These are not so much. These are just have more details

[plush pelican]

What's more technical than Grammis?

[signal cipher]

https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/bitstream/1807/65477/3/Irimia_Monica_A_20126_PhD_thesis.pdf

[plush pelican]

okay, yeah, literal PhD papers are indeed more technical, 😅

That's what someone submitted in order to earn their PhD, 😄

[signal cipher]

Grammis, grammatik20, Leo etc are nice

I have started with “your German teacher” etc. and now grammis is not enough sometimes 😄

LOTR is nice by the way. I suggest you to read in German. More easier than I expected.

[plush pelican]

Easier than the English?

[signal cipher]

I read it for the first time 🤷‍♂️

It has 27262 words in three books in German. But I don’t know how many of them are conjugations, declensions of same words.

They probably have at least 15000

[icy flax]

Sag mir du bist cool, ohne mir zu sagen, dass du cool bist.

Hast du mit einem Programm berechnet? Ich finde es super die Häufigkeit jedes einzelnen Wortes zu kalkulieren. Dabei merkst du, dass nur ein ganz kleines Bisschen selten benutzt wird.

[signal cipher]

https://apps.apple.com/tr/app/owle-learn-languages/id6466396476?l=tr

[robust glade]

"..., ohne zu sagen,...". "Hast du es mit...". "Dabei merkst du, dass"

[true condor]

When do I use infinitve with zu and when without?

[tiny scaffold]

Don't use ''zu'' with modal verbs like möchten or wollen or sollen

[true condor]

Können Sie mir ein Beispiel geben?

[tiny scaffold]

''Ich will das Brot zu essen'' ❌
''Ich will das Brot essen'' ✅

''Ich sollte schlafen zu gehen'' ❌
''Ich sollte schlafen gehen'' ✅

[icy flax]

Brauche ich auch nicht ein "..., ohne es zu sagen, dass..."?

[plush pelican]

I don't think so, but isn't there a "me" in the second part as well that's missing?

"Tell me that you're cool without telling me that you're cool"

?

so like "ohne mir zu sagen, dass du cool bist"

?

[icy flax]

Stimmt es!

[thorn zodiac]

Question about the perfekt helping verb changing.
Im going through a grammar book (Deutsche Grammatik 2.0 Seite 99) and this part has it changing and I didn't know that was possible. I thought it was always fixed like (ich bin gekommen)

Can someone explain/link me a resource?

Z.b:
**-Ich habe mich für das Theater umgezogen
-Ich bin nach München umgezogen

-Das Eis ist in der Sonne geschmolzen

-Die Sonne hat das Eis geschmolzen.**

[willow socket]

das stimmt!

oder einfach 'stimmt'

[willow socket]

When there is a accusative object, you use 'hat'. Note that a reflexive accusative pronoun (zB 'sich') counts as an object.

Sich umziehen = change clothes
umziehen = move (like pack up your things and get a new house)

Ich habe mich umgezogen
Ich bin umgezogen.

With schmelzen the verb at least means the same in both cases. But when the ice melts, it is changing its state (sein helping verb). When the sun melts the ice, it is acting on the ice as an object (haben helping verb).

[thorn zodiac]

Thanks you very much

[icy flax]

Vielen Dank, Lolo, wirklich! Ich glaube, ich sage das seit 2019, weil ein Kamarad beim Deutschkurs das immer beim Bejahen sagte und ich hab nie die falsche Wortsordnung gemerkt

[wheat moon]

Would it be "Wegen dem Gewitter kann ich nicht Fußball spielen" or "Wegen des Gewitters kann ich nicht Fußball spielen"?

[left salmon]

wegen des
although youll find many natives say wegen dem

bc idk why

[plush pelican]

Officially, if you're taking a test: use Genitive case, so "des"

Unofficially, colloquially: Dative, so "dem"

[wheat moon]

ahhh

[plush pelican]

It's because in a lot of German dialects, Genitive doesn't really exist anymore, right? So people let that bleed over into Hochdeutsch and replace Genitive with Dativ there, too

[wheat moon]

Genitive slander

[plush pelican]

In den meisten deutschen Dialekten findet sich der Genitiv höchstens noch bei Personennamen und Verwandtschaftsbezeichnungen sowie in festen Wendungen.

[left salmon]

ohh thats where that comes from?
i had no idea i just hear it all the time and it annoys me a little bit tbh

[plush pelican]

Dialektal und umgangssprachlich weit verbreitet sind stattdessen Konstruktionen mit dem Dativ, beispielsweise dem Nachbarn sein Haus, sowie die präpositionale Umschreibung, insbesondere mit „von“, beispielsweise das Haus vom Nachbarn.

Weitere Beispiele sind etwa kärntnerisch Peta sei Våta „Peter sein Vater“ oder da Våta vom Peta „der Vater vom Peter“; unser’ Oma ihr klein’ Häuschen; dem Vater sein Auto und dem Ernst Kuzorra seine Frau ihr Stadion (Johannes Rau).

Solche Umschreibungen werden jedoch in der Standardsprache vermieden, da sie von der präskriptiven Grammatik als inkorrekt dargestellt werden.[9] Beide Umschreibungstypen sind in vielen germanischen Sprachen verbreitet; siehe im Folgenden.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genitiv#Vorkommen_und_Ersatz_des_Genitivs_in_den_deutschen_Dialekten

[willow socket]

Genitive is still used a lot in non-dialectical German. Just not in all situations. Wegen is almost always used with Dative in conversation. Genitive is still used quite a bit when talking about possession and stuff.

[plush pelican]

dem Mann sein Haus

What is going on with "dem Anna sein Schlüssel"

Is that assuming Anna = Mädchen?

[willow socket]

The replacement of genitive has happened mostly at the level of verbs, where genitive objects have largely been replaced by preposition + akk/dat, and some prepositional objects. For example, außerhalb + gen vs. außerhalb von + dat.

And the whole weird dative possession thing...yeah might happen in dialects but honestly have never heard someone use it irl in my life.

[plush pelican]

Nur im Südwesten, vor allem in Luxemburg, im linksrheinischen Westmitteldeutschen (mit Ausläufern nach Nordhessen) sowie im Elsass und in Lothringen, werden in der Alltagssprache bis heute weibliche Vornamen häufig noch mit einem Artikel im Neutrum versehen (vgl. AdA-Karte Rd. 9, 2a/b, https://www.atlas-alltagssprache.de/artikelvorname/); dementsprechend heißt es (d)em Anna sein Schlüssel oder – seltener (in der Deutschschweiz) – (d)em Anna sis Schlüssel (vgl. auch SASD Online).

[willow socket]

and afaik it's not a modern movement but a long-existing dialectical one

[plush pelican]

Where do you live, again?

[willow socket]

I lived in Hessen and currently in Bremen.

Visited NRW many times, as my partner grew up there.

[plush pelican]

Maybe you need to go further south, 🤔

or east

[willow socket]

Or more into a Dorf. But I don't want to.

[whole portal]

I'm telling you you gotta watch Fam. Heinz Becker lol

[plush pelican]

Is that the most hated family in Germany?

ah, no

who are the family that everyone dislikes for being low class?

but everyone watches them as reality tv?

[whole portal]

I think you mean Ritters

[plush pelican]

yeah

[whole portal]

(And I think it's less being low class and more being just antisocial and racist)

Altho these might be linked

Familie Heinz Becker is a cabaret series in the Saarland dialect

Where they absolutely use neutrum for women

[willow socket]

very progressive

[plush pelican]

Is it in connection with "das Mädchen"?

[whole portal]

Das Anna

[left salmon]

id say the pink one but only in a meme kind of way

[whole portal]

I don't think so

[plush pelican]

where does the neutrum come from, then?

[whole portal]

I haven't researched rhinefranconian dialects

Diese Besonderheit der „neutralen Frauen“ ist nicht in einer Geringschätzung der Frauen begründet, sondern kommt daher, dass „das Mädchen“ und „das Fräulein“ grammatikalisch Neutren sind: Die Saarländer sehen quasi alle Frauen als Mädchen/Fräulein an. Auch weibliche Sprecher weichen dieser Regel daher nicht aus.

Seems a bit too simple but maybe that's just it 🤷‍♀️

[plush pelican]

...isn't that what I said?

[whole portal]

Yeah I just copied it from Wikipedia

[plush pelican]

Small word order question. This quote is from a person talking in a novel:

Ein paar Leute, die bedeutend mehr von Ethik verstehen als du oder ich, sind zu dem Schluss gekommen, dass die GU [Galaktische Union] nicht bereit für eine neue Lebensform ist.

I would've had the last Nebensatz in a different order, namely:

"dass die GU für eine neue Lebensform nicht bereit ist."

Is the word order in the book neutral, or does it put emphasis on "für eine neue Lebensform"? Is my version more neutral? Wrong?

[whole portal]

Your version emphasizes nicht bereit a bit more imo

Book is pretty neutral

[plush pelican]

Interesting. Then I don't fully understand word order yet.

[charred harbor]

Was that a pun

[sand marsh]

Hu guys

Is there anyone studying medicine in Germany

[rare jetty]

Nah but I know one who did

Also you might have more success in #1033125270217048246 or #general

[gusty junco]

Is it correct to say that -er (like in meiner) is pronounced like "-uh" in English (so mein-uh) and -e (like in meine) is pronounced like "-eh" (so mein-eh)?

[plush pelican]

Instead of guessing, we can

1. link you to an audio file: https://forvo.com/word/meiner/#de

2. Show you the IPA (/maɪ̯nɐ/), which shows exactly what sound is made. You can then take that IPA and put it in a "IPA voice reader" website as well, if you want.

[gusty junco]

Yes i have done that before and listened to people say it a lot and the only difference i can hear is that one is "uh" and the other is "eh"

[plush pelican]

What I'm trying to say is: It's very difficult for us to confirm what you're hearing, because "uh" and "eh" are based on your understanding of what sound letters make in your native language (or English, idk), but those letters make different sounds in other languages, so trying to ask us, "Does this ending of this word in German sound like 'uh'?" is an inherently very subjective question that is difficult to answer.

[gusty junco]

Ok well thanks anyways

[plush pelican]

I can tell you that -er at the end of a word is often a schwa, an almost vowel-like sound

but whether it sounds like "uh" or "eh"...well, that depends on what you think of as "uh" and "eh"

[gritty niche]

I know that some people pronounce final -er like -a in German

[night dagger]

Lots of dialects out there which may result in a more open sounding -er instead of the more standard one in German. Good practice would be to sort of roll it with the uvular R.

[fallow ledge]

Hochdeutsch uses a schwa?

I think Australian english also does that, so those down under buggers dont have to adjust much

[fervent kernel]

ich habe ein frage, ich bin im Kurs A1
hier bei speil..
wer ´´kann´´ gut tanzen?
Malun und Alex können gut tanzen.
Warom wer ´´Kann´´...
oder nicht ´´´wer Können´´ ?

[night dagger]

Yeah for example:
immer - [ˈɪmɐ]
Lager - [ˈlaːɡɐ]

But the uvular R influences the sound to make this type of a schwa

Well, it can anyway.

[night dagger]

Singular vs Plural.
Verbformen.de

Wer kann gut tanzen? —> Kann jemand gut tanzen?

[fervent kernel]

"Wer" fragt nach 1 Person (grammatisch)

z.B. "Wie viele" fragt nach einem Plural

[tiny scaffold]

Ihm hamma schon geholfen

Er fragte in beiden Kanälen

[night dagger]

ihm

[tiny scaffold]

Ach danke

[fresh oracle]

hi, I'm a little unsure as to when we use "gedankenvoll" and when we use "nachdenklich"? i've looked online and "nachdenklich" seems to be more about consideration and "gedankenvoll" more for deep thought, but i'm not entirely sure

[signal cipher]

Sie hat mich gestern interessiert

Would you write it in which option:

Gestern hat sie mich interessiert
Gestern hat mich sie interessiert

[plush pelican]

Gestern hat sie mich interessiert

nominative before accusative

"mich" here isn't even a reflexive pronoun, by the way, just a regular pronoun in accusative case

[signal cipher]

Oh you are right

[plush pelican]

This is easier to see when you're doing something where the reflexive pronoun and the regular pronoun are different

like

Er hat sie gestern interessiert

Gestern hat er sie interessiert

"sie" cannot be a reflexive pronoun, it must be either "she" or "them"

[signal cipher]

Oh when it’s used with subject we use reflexive 🧐

[plush pelican]

yeah, a reflexive pronoun has to reflect the subject

Er hat sich für sie interessiert.

He was interested in her.

[signal cipher]

gestern hat sie sich für sich selbst interessiert?

[plush pelican]

Yesterday, she was interested in herself? 😄

[signal cipher]

Yes. Just an example

[plush pelican]

sounds very egoistisch

[signal cipher]

So is this wrong?

You didn’t use reflexive

With interessieren

[plush pelican]

There's 2 different things

X interessiert Y

X interessiert sich für Y

X interessiert Y = Y is interested in X

X interessiert sich für Y = X is interested in Y

[signal cipher]

I think I understood

These topics were more useful right? 😂 not regular me

[plush pelican]

Dein Neugier interessiert mich = your curiosity interests me.

Ich interessiere mich für dein Neugier = I'm interested in your curiosity.

but idk, the 2nd sentence seems like it might be a bit weird to me. But I'm not sure.

Usually, I think you do "ich interessiere mich für X" when it's something more concrete, maybe?

or...idk

the 2nd sentence I don't think is grammatically wrong

but I don't think you'd phrase it that way

[signal cipher]

Ich bedanke mich schön.

Danke schön mister

[spare warren]

*Deine Neugier

[peak temple]

hallo Leute, es tut mir leid euch zu stören, aber ich würde gern wissen, wie ich was ich geschrieben habe verbessern könnte

Bei dem Dokument handelt es sich um einen Auszug aus einem Zeitungsartikel, mit dem Titel „der 9. November 1990“, der von X veröffentlicht und am Y in der deutschen Welle veröffentlicht wurde
Am dritten Oktober 1990 ist die Wiedervereinigung Deutschlands stattgefunden. Es bestand darin, die DDR und die BRD zu verschmelzen, damit Deutschland ein einziges Land sein könnte. 24 Jahre später veranschaulicht immer noch die Wiedervereinigung Deutschlands ein überwiegendes Ereignis für seine Einwohner.
„es lebe das Neue, es lebe die deutsche Republik“ hatte der SPD Politiker Scheidemann angekündigt. Das beweist die Wendepunkt von einem Reich zu einer Republik. Seit 1918 ist Deutschland eine Republik worden. 1933 ist Hitler an die Macht gekommen. Diese Machtergreifung war echt besorgniserregend, sei es für Deutschland selbst oder für die gesamte Welt. Danach war seine Kraft fast unbegrenzt. Jedoch hat er 1939 Polen gestürmt. Der Anschluss Polens war der Auslöser des Krieges worden. Was im Text hervorhoben worden ist, ist, dass Deutschland den anderen Ländern auf den Prüfstand gestellt hat. Es war glaubwürdiger als je zuvor. Am 8 Mai 1945 ist Deutschland gescheitert worden. 1949 haben zudem die Viersiegermächte beschlossen, Deutschland in vier Besatzungszonen zu verteilen. Der Zweck dieser Kluft war, Deutschland zu ermatten. Frankreich, die USA und Großbritannien übten die Macht in der Westzone aus. Im Gegenteil wurde die Westzone von der USSR kontrolliert. Die „Ossis“ (die Einwohner aus dem Osten) lebten in der Armut , da der USSR ein kommunistisches System eingeführt hatte. Deshalb wollten mehrere Ossis nach Westen fliehen, um ihre Lebensbedingungen zu verbessern. Die ungerechte Teilung Deutschlands verkörperte den Vorrang des USSR.

[delicate tiger]

Bei dem Dokument handelt es sich um einen Auszug aus einem Zeitungsartikel**,** mit dem Titel „der 9. November 1990“, der von X veröffentlicht und am Y **in **der deutschen Welle veröffentlicht wurde
Am dritten Oktober 1990 **ist **die Wiedervereinigung Deutschlands stattgefunden. **Es **bestand darin, die DDR und die BRD zu verschmelzen, damit Deutschland ein einziges Land sein könnte. 24 Jahre später **veranschaulicht **immer noch die Wiedervereinigung Deutschlands ein **überwiegendes **Ereignis für seine Einwohner.
„es lebe das Neue, es lebe die deutsche Republik“ hatte der SPD Politiker Scheidemann angekündigt. Das beweist die Wendepunkt von einem Reich zu einer Republik. Seit 1918 ist Deutschland eine Republik worden. 1933 ist Hitler an die Macht gekommen. Diese Machtergreifung war echt besorgniserregend, sei es für Deutschland selbst oder für die gesamte Welt. Danach war seine **Kraft **fast unbegrenzt. **Jedoch **hat er 1939 Polen gestürmt. Der Anschluss Polens war der Auslöser des Krieges worden. Was im Text hervorhoben worden ist, ist, dass Deutschland **den **anderen Ländern auf den Prüfstand gestellt hat. Es war glaubwürdiger als je zuvor. Am 8 Mai 1945 ist Deutschland **gescheitert **worden. 1949 haben zudem die **Viersiegermächte **beschlossen, Deutschland in vier Besatzungszonen zu verteilen. Der Zweck dieser **Kluft **war, Deutschland zu ermatten. Frankreich, die USA und Großbritannien übten die Macht in der Westzone aus. Im Gegenteil wurde die **Westzone **von der USSR kontrolliert. Die „Ossis“ (die Einwohner aus dem Osten) lebten in **der **Armut , da **der **USSR ein kommunistisches System eingeführt hatte. Deshalb wollten mehrere Ossis nach Westen fliehen, um ihre Lebensbedingungen zu verbessern. Die ungerechte Teilung Deutschlands verkörperte den Vorrang **des **USSR.

check bolded parts, most of it is bad/wrong word choice

[peak temple]

Vielen Dank!!!!

[willow socket]

Im ersten Satz steht ein 'veröffentlicht' zu viel 😉

hervorhoben --> hervorgehoben

[peak temple]

Danke!

[signal cipher]

Ein Stück Wegs hinter dem Schlachtfeld machten sie sich ihr Lager unter einem ausladenden Baum: ….

What is Stück weg

Does that mean Teil?

[night dagger]

It’s a fixed phrase or ein Sprichwort

Yeah a bit of the way or so

[signal cipher]

Thank you

[night dagger]

Ein Stück weiter is also something you’ll hear often

[signal cipher]

A bit?

[night dagger]

Ein Stück entfernt

I think that’s it 😄

[signal cipher]

Sir thank you sir

[velvet bolt]

hallo wie tun ich sagen das ist cool in Englisch?

[gritty niche]

Du brauchst nicht sagen "tun" hier.

[velvet bolt]

Hm, habe ich gefragt?

[gritty niche]

Fragen brauchen nicht "tun" auf Deutsch

I think only English does the "do" for questions and negatives thing

maybe some Celtic languages

[velvet bolt]

Aber warum

[gritty niche]

Ich weiß nicht, aber, meiner Meinung nach, es ist einfacher ohne "tun"

Hallo wie sagt man "das ist cool" auf Englisch?

[velvet bolt]

Okay, das werde ich mir merken, danke

[gritty niche]

English used to do the same
How saith man "that is cool" in English?

or How sayeth one "that is cool" in English?

[velvet bolt]

Ich spreche nur Deutsch, also weiß ich es nicht, haha

[willow socket]

stelle dieselbe Frage bitte nicht in mehreren Kanälen

Das macht mehr Arbeit, weil man nicht weiß, ob die Frage schon beantwortet wurde.

[velvet bolt]

Warum dann zwei Kanäle?

[willow socket]

wenn in einem Kanal viel diskutiert wird, kann man den 2. Kanal verwenden, damit seine Frage nicht untergeht, zB

[velvet bolt]

Ich sehe, das ist mein Fehler, sorry

[thorn zodiac]

Extending from this question,

Im now having trouble on understanding on what makes a verb have sein or haben as the helping verb.

For example, I dont see why "leben" has haben since I cant really see it used with an object.

If someone could also explain this haben with object, and sein without it

[icy flax]

"sein" is used for changes of state and movement (which is also a change of change if one reflect upon it)

I learn German since 2016 and I never saw someone saying "haben" is used for verbs that require an object. If I were you, I would erase it from your head

You can pretty safely go with this rule: "movement and change-of-state verbs use sein; all the rest use haben"

[thorn zodiac]

Maybe im misunderstanding my resource but I was trying to understand how these are formed:

Z.b:
**-Ich habe mich für das Theater umgezogen
-Ich bin nach München umgezogen

-Das Eis ist in der Sonne geschmolzen

-Die Sonne hat das Eis geschmolzen.**

[icy flax]

The first you are changing clothes (haben)
The second is a movement of changing places (sein)

The matter (ice) change its form/shape (sein)
Someone performed an action of changing the state of sth else (haben)

I could tell you that "fahren" is always with "sein" because it is about moving from A to B by car or other vehicle with motor, but that would be partially wrong.

When you make someone else move from A to B, then you use haben

I guess they are trying to show you that, despite the great majority of verbs being either SEIN or HABEN, there are a few verbs accept both depending on the context.

[thorn zodiac]

In my mind umziehen is fixed to sein but clearly thats no the case

[thorn zodiac]

interesting

Whats this specific topic called

[icy flax]

Mhh... Auxiliary Verbs

In Hammer .pdf there might be a great explanation about it.

Specifically about this edge case

[thorn zodiac]

Ill take a look thanks 😎

[thorn zodiac]

I couldnt find it in Hammer Grammar but I did find a post online:
https://www.reddit.com/r/German/comments/wl40h0/haben_and_sein_as_auxiliary_verbs/

I know this cant extend to every verb naturally since some just wouldnt ever do that but do this extend to a vast majority of verbs?

[icy flax]

Uh! I think it also works to think it that way. I would call Zustandspassiv the "ist gerissen/geschosen/abgebrochen"

[night dagger]

There are certain verbs that take both - fliegen, schwimmen, umziehen, usw

[warped oriole]

Umziehen has two different meanings.
Reflexive mich umziehen is changing clothes.
Umziehen is moving out/in.

[night dagger]

Yes, I know

Many words have multiple meanings

I think he was just surprised that a verb can use both sein and haben depending on meaning.

[warped oriole]

Ok. I thought you put it in the same catergory as schwimmen and fliegen which don't have totaly different meanings depending on which (haben or sein) is used.

Never mind

[night dagger]

Yeah I can see why, i should have added other examples like anziehen or something

Good point

[hushed dawn]

Hello

is there a difference between "jetzt gerade" and "gerade jetzt" ?

[warped oriole]

Yes.

"Jetzt gerade" bedeutet entweder "genau jetzt" oder es kann sich auf eine kürzliche Vergangenheit beziehen (Jetzt gerade bin ich gelaufen).

"gerade jetzt" bedeutet so viel wie "ausgerechnet jetzt"
Gerade jetzt ist es wichtig zusammen zu halten.

[hushed dawn]

Ah Okey
Also mit "Gerade jetzt" beschreibt mann eher eine dringende/wichtige Situation/Handlung/Aufgabe , die zu erfüllen ist, ja ?

Oder es könnte auch auf "Sarkasmus" hinweisen ?
--> z.B. ,
Gerade jetzt rüfst du mich an?

[icy flax]

👍, like "ausgerechnet jetzt"
"out of all the possibilities of calling me, you call me exactly now?!"

Flirtet man Ideen auf Deutsch, oder funktioniert solcher Ausdruck nur in meiner Sprache? Ich schreibe gerade einen Text, und erzähle, dass ich obwohl X von Beruf bin, habe ich immer mit Y geflirtet.

[icy flax]

Gefunden! Es geht!
3c 🎉🎉
https://www.dwds.de/wb/flirten

[granite spade]

"Nicht zufällig brechen gerade heute überall die Regionen auf" - how would you explain the position of the subject in this sentence?

[plush pelican]

Simple: The subject doesn't have to be in position 1....OR in position 3...

German has, instead of rules, tendencies

The subject tends to be in either position 1 or 3

but it can come later in the sentence, especially if it's very new/important information that needs to be stressed

Considering the subject has a definite article "die", it would normally come earlier in the sentence in a neutral word order, suggesting that they really wanted to put emphasis on the subject here, and so they pushed it to quite late in the sentence.

Hammer's German Grammar talks about this

Hammer's German Grammar 19.4.2(c):

[granite spade]

precisely what i couldn't find in my GGU, thanks

it's late...

[plush pelican]

GGU?

[granite spade]

German Grammar and Usage

it was actually staring me in the face and I hadn't seen it...I should sleep

[fervent kernel]

Beinhaltet Arbeitsweg was ist der Punkt von Beinhaltet hier?

[plush pelican]

I mean, "beinhaltet" = contains, right?

Where did you see this?

[plush pelican]

so it contains all of those things listed, not just "Arbeitsweg"

Is this an ad for something?

Some all-inclusive job?

[fervent kernel]

Jemand hat eine Kommentar geschrieben,

Darüber offensichtlich

[plush pelican]

yeah, so they're saying those 8 hours of "free time and relaxation" also includes a bunch of stuff that isn't actually free time and relaxation, but rather necessary chores

[winter marsh]

Sagt man "die Tatsache, dass" genauso wie man im englischen "the fact that" sagt

[plush pelican]

I mean, you see it in the book, 😅 I've not known Hammer's to include false German sentences.

[fervent kernel]

Beinhaltet und Arbeitsweg sind denn verschiedene Dinge, oder?

[plush pelican]

It's the most definitive book on German grammar in the English language

[plush pelican]

My dude, watch this:

8 hours of free time and recovery*

*includes driving to work, budgeting, eating, personal hygiene, shopping, visiting doctors, appointments with the DMV, etc.

[fervent kernel]

Ah ok danke 👍

[plush pelican]

it's like when you see in an ad that there's some asterisk, some "additional info", that actually reveals that the advertised thing is a lot shittier than it looks at first glance

like some medical drug for dealing with Alzheimer's

and they're like, "may cause cramping, bloating, suicidal thoughts, and sudden death"

they're being sarcastic

[winter marsh]

Klingt es aber so natürlich wie im englischen

[plush pelican]

Ich bin kein Muttersprachler, frag mich nicht, wie "natürlich" etwas klingt.

Dafür brauchst du echte Muttersprachler

[winter marsh]

Und es könnte immer noch manche Unterschiede geben, das ist der zweite Grund warum ich das gefragt hab

[winter marsh]

Ja hast recht

[plush pelican]

Soweit ich weiß, benutzt man es genauso wie im Englischen. Aber das könnte auch einfach meine Neigung sein, weil Englisch meine Muttersprache ist.

[winter marsh]

Danke dir

[granite spade]

Ich tue mich zu Haus' -- hat das Sinn?

[plush pelican]

Ich bin mir nicht sicher--ist das ein Teil eines Liedes oder so?

[night dagger]

Ja

eine andere Alternative wäre einfach mit „dass“. zB: dass du das in so kurzer Zeit geschafft hast, ist beeindruckend.

einf „dass“ hört man vllt etwas häufiger im Alltag — meiner Meinung nach wäre „die Tatsache“ wäre ein kleines bisschen gehobener

[willow socket]

2x wäre

[plush pelican]

wäre, wäre, Fahrrad...sphäre? 😄

wie "hätte, hätte, Fahrradkette"

[willow socket]

Ob es gehoben ist weiß ich nicht. Aber es verleiht der Aussage eine bestimmte Betonung und da es etwas spezifischer ist hört man es vllt nicht so häufig wie “dass” alleine. Klingt aber genauso normal.

[willow socket]

Nicht wirklich, fehlt da Teil des Satzes oder wo hast du das her?

[dense obsidian]

Das kann man ohne Probleme so sagen.

[signal cipher]

Das ich gestern gekauft habe, das Auto gefällt mir sehr gut.

Das ich gestern gekauft habe, gefällt das Auto mir sehr gut.

Are these correct?

I wonder if we can write relative clause in vorfeld

[plush pelican]

As far as I'm aware, you must write the Relativsatz after the noun in the main clause has been mentioned.

This is often directly after the noun (Der Hund, den ich gesehen habe, ist nett.)

But the Relativsatz can also be delayed a bit if the remaining "chunk" of the main clause would be too small and sound weird on its own.

Thus for example:

Ich habe heute der Frau geholfen, die ich gestern gesehen habe.

Instead of

Ich habe heute der Frau, die ich gestern gesehen habe, geholfen.

https://deutschegrammatik20.de/attribute/relativsatz/relativsatz-position/

[signal cipher]

Then we can only write a noun phrase. When a verb exists it has to be after. I guess it’s like that.

I mean before the sentence not in vorfeld.

Die Moritzburg, die kannten wir immerhin.

[plush pelican]

When a verb exists, it has to be after? What do you mean?

Der Hund, den ich gesehen habe, ist sehr nett.

[signal cipher]

There are verbs in relative clauses. But in this example there is no verb.

[plush pelican]

Where'd you get that?

That's not, technically speaking, a Relativsatz

[signal cipher]

thematisierungausdrucke grammis

[plush pelican]

But rather a colloquial alternative

[signal cipher]

Appositive probably

[plush pelican]

Hammer's talks about this

[plush pelican]

Yeah, something like that

[signal cipher]

I try to understand which nebensatz is written in vorfeld, which in left aussenfeld, which in Nachfeld, which is right aussenfeld

[plush pelican]

Hammer's German Grammar 5.4.1(b):

[signal cipher]

I couldn’t find a source about these positions and relativesatz. Specific source I mean.

[plush pelican]

It's like you restart the main clause instead of having a proper Relativsatz

[plush pelican]

Yeah, again you're getting so deeply technical that there simply isn't anything at that level

At this point, it's easier to just understand the sentence structures by reading more sentences

The only places that might explain things at that level would be like Grammis or some high level linguistics paper or something.

[signal cipher]

I have a guess. If nebensatz represents something in mainclause we write it in aussenfelds.

Since it becomes something extra

Extra explanation

[plush pelican]

Let me give you a counterexample

[signal cipher]

I mean when we write it before or after. We can also write in mittelfeld.

[plush pelican]

Ich habe den Hund, den meine Schwester gekauft hat, im Park nebenan gesehen.

[plush pelican]

Well, so you're saying, "if it's not in the middle, then it's in the not-middle parts"?

Der Hund, den ich gesehen habe, ist sehr nett.

That doesn't count as Außenfeld, right?

[signal cipher]

I mean when we write a nebensatz before the all clause or after the all clause, and if that nebensatz represents something in main clause, we write it in aussenfelds. Like when it represents “das”

[plush pelican]

That's to the right of the subject, that's in the Vorfeld

[signal cipher]

I am not sure

It may be nachertsposition

[plush pelican]

The subject can't be in the Außenfeld

It's to the right of the subject

Therefore, it cannot be in the Außenfeld

[plush pelican]

Right, but Nacherstposition is part of the Vorfeld, right?

[signal cipher]

As I know yes

But right aussenfeld can be before or after Nachfeld. May be something similar between vorfeld and left aussenfeld.

[willow socket]

Exception:
Relativsätze mit 'wer'
zB: Wer Mathe mag, der denkt gerne systematisch über Probleme nach.

[plush pelican]

Ooh, forgot about that

Example of that earlier "not technically a Relativsatz" situation

Also die Lea, die kenne ich gut.

It groups "also die Lea" all into the linkes Außenfeld

[signal cipher]

Its main clause

[signal cipher]

Die Lea is thematic expression there.

[signal cipher]

Wer maybe mag. Can we call this relative clause

There is no relative pronoun

[willow socket]

https://www.deutschakademie.de/blog/die-grammatik-relativsaetze-mit-wer/

[signal cipher]

Danke schön

[plush pelican]

Grammis counts it

https://grammis.ids-mannheim.de/systematische-grammatik/368

[fervent kernel]

Das geht auf meine Kuhhaut ist häufig, oder?

[signal cipher]

Danke Mister

[delicate tiger]

https://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/auf_keine_Kuhhaut_gehen *keine

[outer sand]

Hey guys I'm new here and I want to reach B1, what do you guys recommend I do? I don't think Duolingo is good enough and don't know if classes are an option

[fervent kernel]

Ach so ich hab mich vertippt, aber häufig?

[willow socket]

Nicht sehr häufig

[jade hawk]

I'd like a confirmation whether I understand these two words right:
die Delle = dent inwards; verb eindellen
die Beule = dent outwards = a bump; verb einbeulen/verbeulen/zerbeulen

[light rain]

Jep.
"die Delle" = inward bump/dent, commonly for physical objects and also in figurative expressions.

"die Beule" = outward bump/dent, commonly pertaining to the human body.

[jade hawk]

is it a bump if its inward? I dont think so but its also not something I've ever thought about

[light rain]

Technically, it is a dent. I was just trying to be symmetrical with the explanation. 🙂

[jade hawk]

Very well. Thanks

[hushed dawn]

Hello !

"Der Engel: eine magische Idee. Kommt von oben geflogen, tut Gutes, stellt keine störenden Fragen. "

I want to ask about the grammatical rule name , if any, for "geflogen" in here. i want to learn more about it.

[light rain]

"Geflogen" in this sense is being an adjective in its past tense (Partizip Perfekt). It is describing how the angel came from above: flying.

This kind of passive is really tricky and it is sort of exclusive to literature with a lot of metaphoric elements, or even drama.

[plush pelican]

@light rain Hammer's German Grammar 11.6.5(b):

It's like a bare infinitive, except specifically after "kommen" you use the Partizip 2 (past participle) for some reason

Bare infinitives often (note: often, not always, not necessarily most of the time, but often) translate to English with the second verb having an -ing

"She came running up"

There's...a lot of stuff that ends up translating to English with a verb with -ing

Hammer's has like 10 pages on it

[light rain]

A more elaborate explanation, thanks. @plush pelican

[light rain]

The reason for the past participle is sort of what I explained, at least to the best of my knowledge.

[dense zenith]

can someone explain me how this works? i don't understand what grammatical structure it is. so I don't even know what i should look for and learn more about

for me all these equally make no sense gramatically

[arctic coral]

@prisma aspen

My brother 👊🏻

[prisma aspen]

Danke

[plush pelican]

Futur 2 tense

https://deutsch.lingolia.com/en/grammar/tenses/future-perfect

(conjugated 'werden') + Partizip 2 of the main verb (gefunden here) + the helping verb in infinitive form (haben/sein)

[dense zenith]

thank you 🫶

[rigid bluff]

someone help

how to memorise the adjektivendungen table

[hushed dawn]

thanks alot

[plain umbra]

faq adjective declension

[stoic mauve]

Adjective Declension

A Brief Guide to Memorizing German Noun and Adjective Declension by Basementality
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jWl5-kkqF3FQLDzrz8XLBJj7hvPFQK7MT5SYEDGK65E/edit

[rigid bluff]

thx

[icy flax]

Funktioniert "enttäuschen" als Ersatz für "bereuen"? Wenn nicht, was denn, "ich werde nicht enttäuscht"?

Ich setze mich vor den Fernseher für einen 2 stundenlangen Film. Ich hoffe, ich entäusche mich nicht.

[south zenith]

Sich sitzen?

[plush pelican]

Ich hoffe, ich entäusche mich nicht.

Soweit ich es verstehe, würde das bedeuten, "I hope that I don't disappoint myself."

"Ich hoffe, dass ich nicht enttäuscht werde." would be, "I hope I won't be disappointed", which sounds like it makes a lot more sense.

[delicate tiger]

"Ich setze mich für einen 2-stündigen Film vorn Fernseher. Ich hoffe, er [der Film] enttäuscht mich nicht."

[plush pelican]

Vorm? Nicht vor den?

Didn't know "vorn" was an accepted abbreviation. Heute lernte ich

[delicate tiger]

well, coloquial

[still whale]

es gibt Wörter als "vorn" und "vorm"???

kann nicht warten auf "vorr" und "vors" 🔥

[dawn oxide]

Vors sagen wir auch

[icy flax]

Genau! Gestern habe ich gemerkt, man sagt das Auf Englisch nicht und deswegen mich gefragt, ob es auch der Fall in Deutsch wäre. Wenn ich das in meiner Sprache sage, denke ich "mich enttäusche", weil die Entscheidung, etwas zu schauen, nur an mir liegt.

Danke Euch! Diese Sprachenunterschiede bei banalen Dingen sind schwer zu erinnern... :/ aber gut dass es euch gibt

[winter marsh]

how can i learn more about sentences like "Es sind hier nicht alle muslimisch."? I mean where the "es" is not the subject but looks like it

what is this function called

found it no help needed

[plush pelican]

https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/innenpolitik/merkel-buchvorstellung-100.html

Am I right in thinking that the subject is "keine Sensationen" and it's split up?

If so, I didn't know that you could split things up like that in order to topicalize something

[trim wigeon]

i'm trying to get into german universities. What does my portfolio have to include?

[wise pendant]

Yes, though I think in this case keine is not an article but an adverb idk

[plush pelican]

How does that work?

[acoustic breach]

#1033125270217048246
And check what your uni needs. It's different for each unis and person and courses

[wise pendant]

Idk twas just a random guess, but it probably is one of these cases, were for emphasis you can split the noun and its article of somehow

[light rain]

Such things happen, especially in trying to convey some sort of drama in a literal sense.
A more familiar way would be "Es finden sich in ihrem Buch keine Sensationen."

I hope it helps. I have explained to the best of my understanding.

[plush pelican]

What I'm wondering is: what other variations of splits are possible? For example:

• Kuh befindet sich in unserem Garten eine.
• Hund spielt mit den Kindern der schwarze.
• um 9 Uhr spielen sie im Garten jeden Tag.
• Jeden Tag spielen sie im Garten um 9 Uhr.

???

[light rain]

Those last two are more likely, except for the third one, wher the correct order would be "jeden Tag im Garten".

The first two seem a tad off.

Especially the second.

[plush pelican]

I'm intentionally doing not the default word order, but instead trying to have time adverbials which are split up among:

• position 1
• near the end of the sentence

Otherwise, it's just a normal default word order, and not an example of this phenomenon

[plush pelican]

I know that, based on this neutral word order: #questions message

There is a spot near the end for nouns with indefinite articles and stuff like "jemand/niemand/keiner". So I sort of see the logic for "keine"...except that it's a Possessivartikel, not a Possessivpronomen

It's a quite interesting situation 🤔

[light rain]

As far as I understand, time adverbials do not really belong at the end of sentences. I always try to work with TeKaMoLo, but correct German writing does not always follow this example.

It gets dicey sometimes, to be honest. 😅

[willow socket]

the first one sounds normal with Kühe and 'keine' at the end. (and updated verb, etc)

[plush pelican]

But that's not what I was asking about, I'm trying to scope out the boundaries of what's possible, not repeat the exact same sentence as the original

[willow socket]

I am confused why you're mixing this up with the time statements though. It's split topicalisation with indefinites:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topikalisierung (siehe 'Sonderfall: gespaltene Topikalisierung')
you'll find p much exclusively with kein-, viel- etc

[plush pelican]

I mean, obviously I've not seen "Sonderfall: gespaltene Topikalisierung" before 😛

[willow socket]

Oh for some reason I thought you'd been the one showing this article to me

since I never knew what it was called 😂

[plush pelican]

The example comes from the idea that time adverbs generally go together, just like how indefinite article and noun generally goes together

so if you can split the latter, can you also split the former?

or what else is splittable?

[willow socket]

you can put any single piece of adverbial info in the first position, and yes it doesn't have to be all the temporal, lokal, etc. info in the sentence. You can have a piece of temporal in the front and more later on.

[plush pelican]

...it is possible that I did not read through the article thoroughly...

[plush pelican]

but if it's later on, it has to be in its "default" spot from the neutral word order?

[willow socket]

has to is as usual somewhat flexible with word order, but yes it should be in a good spot (why your third example sounds off)

[plush pelican]

precisely why I picked it: because "jeden Tag" there is not in its normal spot. Again, trying to test boundaries, 😅

What about the one with "der schwarze" at the end?

That also doesn't work, right?

[plush pelican]

https://www.reddit.com/r/German/comments/1h100b4/more_information_in_post_whats_happening_here/

Things are happening. Somebody linked a research paper, 😅

[dawn oxide]

Yea, it doesn't work

[willow socket]

After bouncing approximately 50 examples off of my partner, I am convinced that although it seems like it should be theoretically possible to do this using ein- (because ein is technically indefinite, right), it only works with kein- and plural indefinites like viel-, mehrer-, etc. And even with 'kein-' , it basically has to be plural. The only exception I could come up with was something like 'Obst,' where it is always singular (Obst gibt es in unserer Wohnung keins)

[plush pelican]

I'm still trying to read the research paper, 😅

[willow socket]

nondeterministic polynomial?

[plush pelican]

like I said, it's a research paper 😅

That's the problem with advanced grammar: at some point, the only people still talking about it are linguists who use their own Fachsprache

[willow socket]

no I'm just joking because NP is a very famous CS complexity class.

[plush pelican]

ah

[willow socket]

but this is great, you found an example with singular.

[plush pelican]

one native on the Reddit thread said this example made sense:

Söhne hat er nur einen

Now that is interesting 🤔

That clearly cannot be attached to the noun in a conventional way, because "Söhne" is plural, which doesn't work with "einen"

[willow socket]

yes, my partner and I are now borderline fighting, since I think this sounds relatively normal but he proclaims that, and I quote, "only someone from NRW who works in a bakery would think it's okay to talk like this'. Idk what bakeries have to do with it.

[plush pelican]

LOL

[willow socket]

same as Syntaktiker example from above

[plush pelican]

Which part? All examples of split topicalization, or just some?

[willow socket]

Particularly this plural-connected-to-ein version

[plush pelican]

the guy who gave the Söhne example is tagged as being Schwäbisch

[willow socket]

though he's not super happy about any

[plush pelican]

Also: I mean, I got the original sentence from a Tagesschau subheader. If anyone is speaking proper Hochdeutsch, it's them, right?

Now, tbf, I think it was more of a editorial piece than a news article

but still

[plush pelican]

Oh, look, the research paper brings up this "plural vs singular" issue as well:

Not gonna lie, I am only like 70% understanding this paper because of all the Fachbegriffe, 😅

basically, this whole section is like, "actually, we can't consider it as attached to the noun, because we have to change it to "eins" and not "ein" in examples f/g

[plush pelican]

ploughing through this research paper is tough

1. we can't consider it as attached to the noun
2. it isn't like the 2 things are both occupying the same slot; they give the example:

Syntaktiker helfe ich dreien

and note that

Syntaktikern helfe ich dreien

is ungrammatical, so only the 2nd half is getting the dative case changes applied to it.

skipping to the conclusion, it seems like they...don't have a comprehensive way of understanding this? Just that they've disproved a different approach? 😅

...our exploratory discussion of word order in German has shown that information structure relations also play a role in serializing the middlefield. At the same time, we were not able to formulate precise rules that could be incorporated in an RRG grammar for German. This topic remains controversial, but we think that the seperation of the Core into two linearization domains is inevitable if one aims to account for a large set of data....

...Despite these unanswered questions, we have found valuable evidence against a configurational interpretation of the topological field model. Further work in this area will show which other traditional views on German clause structure need to be dropped to arrive at a sound analysis.

[light rain]

Please send me this research paper. 🤓

[plush pelican]

https://rrg.caset.buffalo.edu/rrg/Arne Ruhnau - Masterthesis (revised).pdf

[light rain]

Thank you, my good man.

[azure brook]

sorry, quick question )) how do i write in my german cv that im undergraduate psychology student? is it correct to say "Bachelorstudent der Psychologie"? just want to make sure

[night dagger]

yeah that works I think or Psychologie-Student im Bachelorstudium

[azure brook]

Thank you

[icy flax]

Sprecht ihr Deutsch zu Hause? ||selbstverständlich meint er, dass das armes Deutsch ist.||

[icy flax]

So I can go like:

<GroupOfStuff_Plural> + Verb + (andereSatzTeile) + ArticleWord?

[fervent kernel]

Was bedeutet an jmdm. Vorbeirauschen und kann jemand mir bitte ein paar Beispielsätze geben?

Und bitte pinget ihr mich

[plush pelican]

No. So based on the paper and the other page someone linked and explained, the thing at the end isn't actually an article; it's not simply "keine Sensationen" split in half.

Instead, each half has to be able to stand on its own, meaning the 2nd half is actually more like an indefinite pronoun.

This isn't noticeable for a feminine noun like "Sensationen" with "keine", but for example with "Bücher", you can say, "Bücher kenne ich eins."

eins, as in "eines", as in the pronoun "einer".

This cannot be explained as an article, because "Bücher" is plural and can't accept "ein" as an article regardless, so it's clearly not an article attached to "Bücher", but rather a thing standing on its own.

Also, there seem to be some restrictions on what you can use. I'm not entirely sure, but I think it's the list of indefinite pronouns (https://www.germanveryeasy.com/pronouns#Indefinite-Pronouns), adjectives (which fully decline), numbers (which also decline), and maybe some other stuff.

But not definite articles, for example

with the numbers thing, there was this example:

Syntaktiker helfe ich dreien

so the "drei" is declining with the dative case. Syntaktiker, on the other hand, isn't, so the two things are split up and only the 2nd half is getting the declension.

They also have the example:

Polizeiwagen kenne ich nur grüne

So adjectives can work, but I'm not entirely clear on if that's all adjectives, or only some.

And they had the example

Syntaktiker kenne ich nur Chomsky

So proper names also work, I guess

Also, in order to make sure that each half can stand on its own, you may end up having to add something to one side or the other. For example, if you take:

Jeder Spieler erhält zehn Karten.

And split that up so that "jeder" is in the Mittelfeld, "Spieler" in the Vorfeld now has to have a definite article added onto it, so it becomes:

Die Spieler erhalten jeder zehn Karten.

Another example:

Die beiden Professoren, die vorgesehen waren, haben dankend abgelehnt.

If we split this up and put "beiden" on its own in the Mittelfeld, "beide" no longer has weak declension, but rather strong declension, again like its own pronoun:

Die Professoren, die vorgesehen waren, haben beide dankend abgelehnt.

[plush pelican]

an jdm. vorbeilaufen = to run past somebody.

I assume "rauschen" here is just another word for "hurrying/running", so it's just another variant of that?

Actually, DWDS does list the word, so we can see what their definitions say: https://www.dwds.de/wb/vorbeirauschen

1. ⟨jmd., etw. rauscht an jmdm., etw., irgendwo vorbei⟩ sich mit hoher Geschwindigkeit, geräuschvoll an einer Person, einem Ort vorbeibewegen
2. [übertragen] ⟨jmd., etw. rauscht an jmdm. vorbei⟩ unbemerkt, zu schnell für bewusste Wahrnehmung an einer Person vorbeiziehen

So #1 looks much like "vorbeilaufen", to hurry past someone at at high speed

#2 is figurative, and means, "to pass by someone unnoticed/too quickly for conscious perception", so going past somebody so fast that they don't even realize it/can't even realize it.

[obsidian raptor]

Can anybody explain the use of 'mich' in "Ich erinnere mich"? I know that erinnere is reflexive in this situation, but I don't understand why that applies here, as its not an action that applies to oneself like "Ich wasche mich" for instance.

[plush pelican]

"erinnern" is actually more like "remind", and you can see this when you use it in a non-reflexive manner.

For example: Ich erinnere ihn daran, dass er den Müll rausbringen sollte.
I remind him that he should take out the trash.

In the German language, "to remember" is actually, then, "to remind myself" of a memory

[obsidian raptor]

That makes more sense. Danke

[limpid trout]

what's the perceived difference tonally/semantically between modal "sollen" and its subjunctive "sollten"? is it just purely the same as subjunctive as a whole? is it functionally the same distinction as english "shall"/"should"?

[warped oriole]

Yes I think it's the same as shall/should.

[latent wadi]

didn know there was. a name for it lol

[icy flax]

Got it, @plush pelican!

[willow socket]

wir sprechen eine Mischung. Denglisch.

[icy flax]

Hands down die beste Sprache überall

[plush pelican]

Wie viel Prozent Deutsch, wie viel Prozent Englisch?

[willow socket]

I have no earthly idea

sometimes all German, sometimes english with some german words. Sometimes one person speaks english the other german back, it just varies based on topic and which language starts the conversation

[plush pelican]

Klingt verwirrend

[willow socket]

es ist nur verwirrend wenn wir in den USA sind und die Version von "Englisch" sprechen, die wir gewohnt sind. Die Deutschen verstehen englische Wörter, aber Amerikaner verstehen keine deutschen Wörter.

[signal cipher]

…, Weil ich Tennis werde haben spielen können

…, Weil ich werde Tennis haben spielen können

…, Weil ich werde haben Tennis spielen können.

Are these all technically possible?

[plush pelican]

It's time again for "rare combinations of tenses and dependent clauses that hardly ever appear in real life"

😅

[signal cipher]

I know I can write Haben before or after verbgefährte. But I thought what if there is also Futur auxiliary.

Also it’s said that I can’t write werden after verbgefährte.

I am not sure about that.

[signal cipher]

When I get my word order master award I won’t invite you to the ceremony 😔

[plush pelican]

Futur 2 itself is hardly ever used, and if so, usually in a main clause.

Yours is Futur 2, with a Modalverb, in a dependent clause.

I have to look it up just to get the order right

https://deutschegrammatik20.de/spezielle-verben/modalverben/konjugation-modalverben-futur-ii-2/

I'm not sure about placement of the Verbgefährte

I think maybe only #1 is possible, but I'm not sure.

[signal cipher]

That is what I wonder. I know order or others.

[left salmon]

they all sound weird😂

[plush pelican]

Because the whole thing is just so rarely used, you mean?

[left salmon]

i guess? but yeah all of these sound wrong and ive been trying for five minutes to come up with the right solution but everything i try to sound out sounds wrong as well

[plush pelican]

What about something slightly simpler?

Weil ich morgen werde haben arbeiten müssen.

Or

[signal cipher]

…, Weil ich Tennis haben spielen können werde.
I think this would be preferred.

[plush pelican]

But you're not doing the Ersatzinfinitiv placement there?

[fervent kernel]

?

[signal cipher]

Or this

…, Weil ich haben Tennis spielen können werde.
I think this would be preferred.

[signal cipher]

I do. What?

[fervent kernel]

nein

[signal cipher]

None of it?

I mean technically. Not preferably

[fervent kernel]

"Ich werde gut gelaunt sein, weil ich Tennis werde haben spielen können"
I think at most orally, written it looks a bit weird

[plush pelican]

In a dependent clause where you have a double infinitive in a "compound tense" (which most obviously includes Perfekt, but also includes Futur 2), the conjugated verb goes before all other verbs

In other words: the "werde" has to be the first verb

[fervent kernel]

Never seen this form

[signal cipher]

Nope. It’s optional

[plush pelican]

You wrote "werde" at the end

[signal cipher]

Only Haben have to be before when there is double infinitive

[plush pelican]

It's Futur 2 mit Modalverb

[plush pelican]

Says who?

[fervent kernel]

What is it even supposed to express lol

[wispy shuttle]

Soll man soo viele Präsentation während der Ausbildung oder des Studiums machen??

[plush pelican]

"I will have to have worked on the weekend", I guess

[fervent kernel]

?

[fervent kernel]

It should be Ich werde am Wochenende gearbeitet haben müssen I think

Normal Futur 2

[wispy shuttle]

People say that u have to do so many presentations during Ausbildung or ur university

Is it true?

[fervent kernel]

lol

It totally depends on what you're doing

[signal cipher]

https://grammis.ids-mannheim.de/progr@mm/6840

[fervent kernel]

In my studies I had like 1 or two minor presentations

but if you go into humanities probably more

or anything that isn't stem

not much more than school

Some asian students seem to have issues with it because they never do it over there

[plush pelican]

Interesting

[fervent kernel]

this type of form is pretty common when speaking in dialect

[plush pelican]

Which one?

[fervent kernel]

but in high or written it's not that common I'd say

[fervent kernel]

I don't know, multiple

[plush pelican]

...what?

What are you saying is common in dialect?

[fervent kernel]

"dass sie das Flugzeug wird landen sehen"

[plush pelican]

What about the other option in his picture?

[fervent kernel]

this one too

[fervent kernel]

it's just the standard form no?

[plush pelican]

You're saying it's standard to have the conjugated "werden" at the end after 2 infinitives?

[willow socket]

they're both standard

[fervent kernel]

Sie wird das Flugzeug landen sehen

[signal cipher]

‎…, weil ich ihn werde kommen sehen.
…, weil ich ihn kommen werde sehen.

Are these both correct. I know this would be preferred:

…, Weil ich ihn kommen sehen werde.

I want to know if they are technically possible or not.

[wispy shuttle]

Which means ill have a problem too

[plush pelican]

Based on your page, they're both possible.

[wispy shuttle]

Interesting
Whats the topic called??

[plush pelican]

Wait

The 2nd one with "werde" in the middle, that's regional dialect

[signal cipher]

Ersatz infinitiv

[plush pelican]

Bavaria and Austria tend to do that

[wispy shuttle]

What niveau is that??
C1?

[signal cipher]

I don’t know. I don’t study according to grades

[willow socket]

It doesn't really have a level, but maybe B2-C1.

[wispy shuttle]

Thats cool

[fervent kernel]

You'll get there, it's all practice, first times will be weird, in german classes the teachers/profs are much more down to earth I think, so people sometimes try to be overly respectful which just ends up a bit weird, but if you just hold a normal presentation like something you'd see on youtube (doesn't have to be a ted talk) you'll be fine. Focus here in school is usually on free speaking but no one will complain if you read from the power point in your studies

[wispy shuttle]

Yaa

[fervent kernel]

also answering questions on the topic is common

[wispy shuttle]

Yoo thank u for thatt

[willow socket]

How am I in Informatik and have like multiple presentations a week. This semester alone I've already held 5-6 Presentations

[fervent kernel]

lol, are you tutoring?

[willow socket]

I tutor in Sommersemester, I don't count that as presentations tho.

[icy flax]

I had it in the middle of C1 book, yeah

[fervent kernel]

Danke

[clear roost]

nutz ein Übersetzer wie google translate dann

[woven valve]

broskis

1: "Vielseitige Wärmemöglichkeiten: Tragen Sie sie als Halswärmer, Halbmaske oder Vollmaske, um in jeder Situation warm und vor Kälte geschützt zu sein."

2: "
Vollständige Gesichtsabdeckung: Diese Mehrzweckhaube ist für alle Jahreszeiten geeignet und bietet vollständigen Schutz für Gesicht und Hals. Sie eignet sich perfekt für Outdoor-Aktivitäten wie Wandern, Camping, Skifahren, Biken, Snowboarden, Radfahren, Motorradfahren und Bergsteigen und schützt Sie bei Winter- und Sommerabenteuern."

Can someone tell me if this sounds good? It's for a fashion product

[peak temple]

Hallo, warum ist hier kein Genitiv bitte?

[torpid hazel]

während ist kein Präposition da

da ist w

w

[peak temple]

Ok

[torpid hazel]

nebensatzkonnektor

[peak temple]

Also gibt es danach kein Genitiv

Danke

[signal cipher]

Es ist so schwierig, in diesem Buch, Informationen über Aussenfeld zu finden.
Is this correct?

[plush pelican]

I don't think you need the 2nd comma.

I want to say, "das Außenfeld", but I'm not sure; there are some times when German and English don't quite agree on when the definite article is necessary.

[left salmon]

If Außenfeld is a name then you dont need it here, if its a regular noun then you do

[plush pelican]

Außenfeld like Vorfeld, Mittelfeld, Nachfeld

[left salmon]

so its not a name

then you need the article

no idea what those words mean though😂
i mean
in connection to language

[plush pelican]

"Außenfeld" is more technical, you don't hear it much unless you're really researching deeply

[left salmon]

okay wtf never seen this in my life

[plush pelican]

Echt?

Aber wie wurde dir die deutsche Grammatik bzw. Wortstellung erklärt?

[left salmon]

jep
also that sentence is very weird
why that word order

[plush pelican]

Just to use the Nachfeld

[left salmon]

uhh gar nicht? lol

[plush pelican]

Normalerweise würde es ja heißen "Du wirst in diesem Kurs sehr viel lernen."

[left salmon]

ye

[plush pelican]

Aber das Nachfeld kommt nach dem zweiten Verb. Um es zu zeigen, mussten sie etwas da drin stecken.

Nachfeld hört man oft im Gespräch, man fügt etwas am Ende des Satzes hinzu, insbesondere, wenn man etwas zu erwähnen vergessen hat, oder um etwas zu betonen

Ich werde dir helfen heute (aber nie wieder)

Wir haben uns heute getroffen im Park.

Im Standarddeutsch benutzt man das Nachfeld hauptsächlich nur für Vergleiche.

Ich habe ihm mehr geholfen als du.

[left salmon]

ja das stimmt
aber das würde man halt nicht schreiben

[plush pelican]

Na ja, ich hätte auch eine Sprachnachricht schicken können, aber ich halte ein einfaches Bild für angemessener xD.

[hushed dawn]

Zusage könnte die Bedeutung von "Versprechen" haben, in diesem Fall gibt es einen Unterschied dazwischen ?

[dawn oxide]

Since your name says 'korrigiere mich bitte', "etwas da drin stecken" isn't really something we say. Du kannst sagen "mussten sie etwas da reinstecken" ^^

[wispy yarrow]

Versprechen = promise to someone, Zusage = Agreement on a date, for example (Ich habe dem Arztermin zugesagt/eine Zusage erteilt)

[dawn oxide]

yea or 'confirmation' works too

[hushed dawn]

Ahh so if i understood this correctly,

Ich sage dir zu, morgen zu kommen.
This is more like "Ich willige ein, morgen zu kommen", which in some way mean to promise, but isn't as much as versprechen

right ?

[plush pelican]

Does it have to be specific to an appointment, or can it be agreement on other things?

[wispy yarrow]

Also an Agreement, here's Google's example for it

[wispy yarrow]

Yes, although you'd say "Ich sage zu, morgen zu kommen" (and it's rarely used in everyday language)

[hushed dawn]

Got it, thank you !

[hushed dawn]

I read more about the differences between immer wenn and wann immer, but i can't get it though,
Can someone give me examples in which they are not interchangeable to better understand the differences

[night dagger]

wann auch immer ✅
wenn auch immer ❌

hmm

wenn du die Zeit hast, machs gerne. ✅
wann du die Zeit hast, machs gerne ❌

wann just refers to a specific point in time where wenn refers to a conditional

sooo
sag mir Bescheid, wann du Zeit hast.

• let me know when (the moment) you will have time
  sag mir Bescheid, wenn du Zeit hast.
• let me know if you have time

[signal cipher]

Danke schön

[left salmon]

id rather say that wann is only used with questions whether direct or indirect doesnt matter

[night dagger]

what do you mean?

[left salmon]

i mean that wann du Zeit hast is an indirect question

or isnt it👀

[night dagger]

It could be seen as one I suppose but I guess I’m not understanding your train of thought here

„Wann is only used with questions“ — but wenn can be used questions too

And I didn’t say anything about a direct or indirect question 😄

[unreal elbow]

hallo, ich habe heute ein paare fragen zu stellen, wenn ich darf.
was soll das heißen wenn man mich sagt: "du verhaltst dich heute in ein merkwürdiger verfassung"

was soll das sein? wenn ich das Wörterbuch lesen, zeigt es mir das es ähnlich mit wörtern wie "riesig, wunderbar, unglaublich" ist, aber ich denke das es ein negativ konnotation hat, nicht vollkommen positiv

[icy flax]

Verfassung (außer Constitution, also die Hauptgesetzte eines Lands) bedeutet auch Zustand/Stimmung.

Es ist nicht besonders gut, merkwürdig bedeutet anders und oft im Sinne von "awkward", etwas, das nicht wirklich angenehm.

Zumindest habe ich nie dieses Wort in einer guten Situation gesehen

[plain umbra]

Please only ask questions in one channel at a time.

[silver pollen]

Sorry

[unreal elbow]

mon ami, dein frage ist die ubersetzungen auf englisch? sterne bedeutet "star" auf englisch

[unreal elbow]

vielen dank fur die Erklärung herr, ab jetzt, vertraue ich nicht mehr völlig was die Wörterbuch mir sagt

[signal cipher]

Are all subordinate clauses written in vorfeld of main clause when we write them first? Can you give an any example with subordinating conjunction which is not like that (like after subordinate clause we start with the verb in other clause).
„Weil du Äpfel magst“ habe ich das Auto waschen lassen.

Can you give any example with this order:
subordinate clause-vorfeld (position 1) of main clause-rest of the main clause

[plush pelican]

You're missing something in your question

Or maybe the asking word is off

Are all subordinate clauses written in the Vorfeld of the main clause when we write them (subordinate clauses) before (main clauses)?

[signal cipher]

Should I say earlier or first?

[plush pelican]

The main issue was saying "do" instead of "are"

Do....written

Doesn't work

Do they get written, that would work

[signal cipher]

Fixed it

[plush pelican]

I mean, in spoken German, there are probably countless examples of a subordinate clause followed by a main clause with something else in the Vorfeld, but that's more of an error caused by people speaking faster than they think, rather than proper German

Other than that...I would say probably it's not possible.

[signal cipher]

Or can an adverbial conjunction represent subordinate clause?

„Weil du Äpfel magst“ “deshalb” habe ich das Auto waschen lassen.

[plush pelican]

An adverbial conjunction takes up a position in the sentence. If the Vorfeld is occupied by the dependent clause, the adverbial conjunction must be pushed to after the conjugated verb.

At least, that's all I've ever seen.

[signal cipher]

But isn’t deshalb a pronoun which represents the earlier clause?

[plush pelican]

You mean like a da- compound?

[signal cipher]

Yes

That’s why

[plush pelican]

Even if it were, it still takes up space in the sentence, which means it would have to come after the verb because the Vorfeld is occupied

[signal cipher]

Um Deutsch zu lernen, dafür lese ich

[signal cipher]

I mean like: when we can push something in left aussenfeld

[plush pelican]

If it were in the left Außenfeld, it would actually come before the Nebensatz, correct?

[signal cipher]

I can’t ask this directly since probably no one here thought about that 😄

[plush pelican]

Because the left Außenfeld is left of the Vorfeld

[signal cipher]

Left aussenfeld is not one of the main parts of a sentence. It’s not totally connected. That syntax things, I don’t know that term well.

It’s like:
Peter, ich habe Äpfel gekauft.

Peter is in left aussenfeld

Nein, ich esse Äpfel gern nicht.

Nein is in left aussenfeld

[plush pelican]

Right, but the dependent clause is in the Vorfeld, aka where "ich" is in your first Example

So if you're asking about something going in the left Außenfeld, that would put it to the left of the entire dependent clause

Peter, ich habe Äpfel gekauft.

Peter, (weil ich dich liebe), habe ich Äpfel gekauft.

[signal cipher]

But I guess I can say that:

Wenn du ihn triffst, dann wirst du ihn mögen.

[plush pelican]

Good example. This is a double conjunction, "wenn...dann..."

But how to classify the position of "dann"? It's not in the Vorfeld, I don't think?

I have to think about this

[signal cipher]

It’s in vorfeld

[plush pelican]

https://grammis.ids-mannheim.de/systematische-grammatik/1601

Grammis has a page on it, but God help me they use too many linguistics terms, I can't hardly decipher it

[plush pelican]

Not all adverbial conjunctions can do this:

https://grammis.ids-mannheim.de/systematische-grammatik/1278

[signal cipher]

Oh very good lessons

Thank you

[hushed dawn]

Thank you I get this, but i meant something like "whenever" in english.

something like "jedes mal wenn" ?

can i replace such a thing with wann immer , or theres no such thing .

[icy flax]

Lies mal den 3. Eintrag:
https://www.dwds.de/wb/Verfassung
Du kannst dich immer auf DWDS verlassen.

[unreal elbow]

oooh vielen dank für die vorschlag. es ist mir köstlich, was du mir angebieten hast. ich werde ab jetzt darin gehen wenn ich einen neues, fremden wort entdecke

[icy flax]

Du darfst "wann auch immer" als eine valide Übersetzung für "whenever".

Wenige hundert Kilometer von uns, in der Ukraine, sterben und leiden Menschen infolge des völkerrechtswidrigen Angriffskriegs Russlands. Wir alle hoffen auf ein baldiges Ende des Krieges. Wann auch immer er zu Ende geht, bleibt neben vielen anderen Herausforderungen auch das Problem der Munitionsrückstände und Landminen, die Sicherheit, Gesundheit und Leben der Bevölkerung gefährden.
https://www.bmuv.de/rede/rede-von-steffi-lemke-zur-auftaktkonferenz-sofortprogramm-munitionsbergung

[signal cipher]

I didn’t understand what 8 means:

https://grammis.ids-mannheim.de/systematische-grammatik/1202

[icy flax]

I did not know any of these new terms. If I got it right, a Konnektor is a Konjunktion. They call "interner Konnekt" the rest of the Nebensatz that is not thr Konjunktion itself.

[signal cipher]

Oh now I understand. Thank you

[void pier]

https://grammis.ids-mannheim.de/systematische-grammatik/1595
if you click merkmal 8 it also takes you to a page with more description and examples

the terminology is definitely a bit unusual though

[signal cipher]

Wow magic 😄 Thank you so much

[restive copper]

Hello I’m just curious on some easier ways to learn German. I’ve been using Duolingo and also watching YouTube videos to learn everything but it’s gets very boring and sometimes it’s not very enjoyable. Does anyone know of anything that could help me better learn German?

[signal cipher]

Language learning is boring for so many time for so many people. If you study even when you get bored you can succeed. And in time your progress will make you happy.
When I am bored I switch to another thing to do. I generally read and when I get bored from reading I study grammar. Doing that switching all the time.

[plush pelican]

I mean, the start of language learning is more boring than later on, when you can actually use the language, for example to listen to podcasts, watch YouTube videos, read forum posts, watch movies, etc.

One also has to ask: Is your goal to learn German more effectively, or is your goal to have more fun with language learning? Because those are 2 different goals. If you want to have more fun while learning, you could try watching movies in German or watching YouTube videos on your preferred topic in German, for instance.

Of course, because your vocabulary is quite limited right now, you likely won't understand most of what's happening, and in this sense it won't be the most effective use of your time, but it would probably be more fun than staring at declension charts, and if that added fun helps allow you to keep going with German, then it may be worth it, even if it's not the most effective method.

[restive copper]

I’ve never heard goals before and I think that’s a great way to look at it. I think I want to learn it more effectively I just don’t know how to be more effective with my learning

[plush pelican]

well, if your goal is to be more effective: Duolingo is terrible at teaching grammar. You mentioned watching YouTube videos. Who are you watching? Are you watching stuff for grammar?

[restive copper]

So I watched a YouTube named “Anja” and then I also watched “Learn German”

[plush pelican]

Those aren't bad

Here's another channel: https://www.youtube.com/@yourgermanteacher/playlists

They have playlists for the different levels of grammar: "A1.1 Grammar", "A1.2 Grammar", etc.

Another option for a free app is DW Learn German's "Nicos Weg". Idk if you'll have more fun with it, but it is at least different than Duolingo's constant sentence drills

Nicos Weg:
A1 course: https://learngerman.dw.com/en/nicos-weg/c-36519789
A2 course: https://learngerman.dw.com/en/nicos-weg/c-36519797
B1 course (in German): https://learngerman.dw.com/de/nicos-weg/c-36519718

It has a little video clip at the start of each lesson, and instead of drilling sentences, it's more like multiple choice questions and talking about grammar and vocabulary

the video clips together form a larger story of the character "Nico", which plays out over all 3 courses

[signal cipher]

Reading story books is efficient for me. I can learn much more easily. But it has a downside. You can’t learn articles well. Afterwards you have to learn them also.

[plush pelican]

There's also the "Seedlang" app, which has both free and premium versions, although I found that that app seemed to be a lot more vocabulary focused and didn't explain much on grammar, at least back when I tried it.

[signal cipher]

There are apps to read books which have dictionary build in. You can translate words, phrases easily.

[limpid trout]

what way/tense/syntax of captioning images is most natural in german?
like, if i took a photo on a road trip, and in english, labeled it "driving north", how would that be most naturally done in german?
would it be like dictionary entries, i.e. "nach Norden fahren"?

[restive copper]

Vielen Dank! I will definitely look into all this have a great rest of your day

[signal cipher]

You’re welcome.

If I write whole sentence in a feld, for example vorfeld, would a black hole be created by the density? Everyfeld in one feld. One feld to rule them all.

[pure crescent]

in which context? like an Instagram caption?

[plush pelican]

I myself am interested in what it would be like for situations where it's not casual, like in a newspaper or something.

[limpid trout]

pretty much, yeah

[limpid trout]

this too would be a useful distinction to know

[hushed dawn]

kannst du erkennen, was da hinten auf dem Schild steht?

erkennen hier bedeutet "recognize" oder eher "sehen" ?

[plush pelican]

"make out", read legibly, I think

[hushed dawn]

i had to google make out 😂 , but okay i've understood it now

thank you

[plush pelican]

If English not your native language?

It might be easier to understand in context:

(pointing at sign in the distance) Can you make out what that says?

[hushed dawn]

Nope , Arabic is , but i've learned english since my childhood, however I still have some weak point.

Ya, I've got it

thank you

[pure crescent]

would very much depend on the context then, no clear-cut rules.
in this example i would caption something like "Ab in den Norden!" for social media.
or in a newspaper (maybe in the "travel" feuilleton section), you might read "Die Reise in den Norden beginnt hier in Bottrop-Mitte."

[plush pelican]

Ah, yeah, you've said that before, but it's so hard to keep everyone straight on here, so many users, 😅

[plush pelican]

Everytime I see "feuilleton", I think of "millefeuille", and I'm like, "Wait, where's the pastry?" 🤣

[cedar ravine]

Besoffenheit macht Deutschverständnis 5x besser? Wahr?

[night dagger]

Alkohol kann ja die Zunge lockern und das Eis brechen

[cedar ravine]

https://tenor.com/view/fish-cannon-gif-14801380928410168204

[glass venture]

Hey guys let me ask you
Genug bro pack dir morgen welche weck
How is this sentence translated? Why it's 'pack dir' and 'welche weck'?

[plain umbra]

I deleted your question in the other channel. Please only ask your question in one channel at a time.

[glass venture]

Ok, I just had seen people had been answering another question, so my question would be lost in the conversation. Thank you

[left salmon]

weg, not weck
its enough bro, ill put some aside for you tomorrow