questions-2

[plush pelican]

If it is you and 1 friend, you all would be speaking to each other with "du"

Then you use the "du" version of "lassen"

"Lass uns gehen"

If it is you and 2 friends, you use "ihr" for them, because it is plural and informal

then you use "ihr" version of "lassen"

"Lasst uns gehen"

And then you could theoretically do "Lassen Sie uns gehen", if you were speaking to someone, but for some reason you are formal with each other using Sie

but in real life, you wouldn't have such a weird combination

[vernal ermine]

Now I got it

[fervent kernel]

Hello Jack

[vernal ermine]

@plush pelican Vielen Dank❤

[vernal ermine]

Hello ! Bro

[fervent kernel]

how do i

use the VC

[vernal ermine]

Wait for sometime at least 30 minutes, it will open

[vernal ermine]

@plush pelican does lassen become a reflexive verb when we substitute passive sentence with lassen?

[rain talon]

I have a question about something I wrote myself lol

Here, is the correct grammar "in kalten Wetter" or "im kalten Wetter" ?
I'm thinking since there is no article it can't be im, which is in + dem ? But I'm not certain

[long whale]

Neither. It would be "bei kaltem Wetter", since, as you correctly noted, there is no article, the Dativ-"marker" jumps onto the adjective. 🌻

[acoustic tendon]

german loves bei smh

[rain talon]

Damn I would have never guessed bei
Thanks 👍

Fully forgot about that rule with the marker moving to the adjective

I guess I was too angry writing this

[plush pelican]

also, you mixed up 2 versions of "at least"

zumindest
mindestens

natives make this mistake a lot, too

[steel patrol]

There’s also wenigstens

[rain talon]

Lol I can console myself with this information

[fervent kernel]

Vielleicht wusste die Polezei von seiner Identität weil er sie kontaktiert haben können
Does this sentence translate to "maybe the police knew because he is able to contact them"?
And I don't understand the order of the verbs clearly

Is the sentence structure different only when it's objective?
Like in this sentence: ich finde es echt krass, dass er die Polezei hat kontaktieren können
Here haben isn't placed at the end

[delicate tiger]

..., weil er sie hat kontaktieren können
..., weil er sie kontaktieren konnte

[wet torrent]

This one is different, because Lass in this situation is in form of Imperativ.
Lass (du(wer?)) uns(wen?) sehen

[plush pelican]

the sentence is off

"weil er sie kontaktiert haben können"

the verbs don't match up with the subject

[plush pelican]

"Polezei"?

[fervent kernel]

What do u mean?

[plush pelican]

Either you're not copying everything right, or the source is messing stuff up

Polizei

As to "haben" not being at the end: If you go back to the page on double infinitives and read near the end, you'll find that verbs that do Ersatzinfinitiv actually change word order of things in Nebensätze (dependent clauses)

instead of having the conjugated verb at the end, with the verbs like 3, 2, 1

You have the conjugated verb to the left of the other verbs, like 1, 3, 2

[plush pelican]

yeah, you were copying it wrong

[plush pelican]

"weil er sie kontaktiert haben kann."

die Polizei

[fervent kernel]

Yeah my bad

[plush pelican]

Maybe the police knew of his identity, because he potentially contacted them

subjective usage of "können" = possibility of like 50%

The video I linked before lists this all

Er muss sie kontaktiert haben = He very very likely contacted them, 95-100% sure

Er dürfte sie kontaktiert haben = He probably contacted them, 70-80% sure

Er kann sie kontaktiert haben = He might have contacted them, 50% sure

Er könnte sie kontaktiert haben = it's possible he contacted them, but more likely than not, he didn't, only 40% chance he did

The person speaking is guessing as to whether he contacted the police, and is saying by their estimates, it's a 50% chance he contacted them

[plush pelican]

"subjective" or "subjunctive" usage?

[signal cipher]

Junc

[fervent kernel]

And the verb order only changes in the Nebensatz when the modalverb is in objective usage?

[plush pelican]

yeah

when it's using the Ersatzinfinitiv

[fervent kernel]

Understood
Thank you

[plush pelican]

Ich hätte das nicht machen können.

This sentence uses Konjunktiv 2 (the subjunctive), and yet the modal verb here isn't the conjugated one ???

[signal cipher]

Nebensatz trow the conjugated verb at the end. But if there is double infinitive, it doesn’t do at the end but go before infinitive verbs.

So is it called subjective?

[plush pelican]

"Er muss das Buch gelesen haben" this is subjective usage/meaning of the modal verb

[signal cipher]

I mean guessing meaning. Whatever it’s called

[plush pelican]

what I was just talking about, with percentages? Yes, that's subjective usage, as is my example sentence there.

[signal cipher]

Then in my table I should change it with subjective

[plush pelican]

I think so, hence the original question, 😄

[signal cipher]

Sorry for my bad French

I got something for you. @plush pelican We can’t use intransitive verb with the auxiliary verb haben in Partizipalsätz 😮

[plush pelican]

Do you use auxiliary verbs at all in Partizipialsätze?

it's just the main verb, no?

[signal cipher]

I mean Partizip 2 one

[plush pelican]

Can you explain more what you mean?

[signal cipher]

Leben. You can’t use this verb in Partizipalsätz with Partizip 2

[plush pelican]

hmmm 🤔

[signal cipher]

You don’t

[plush pelican]

I think that might be right. Where did you learn about this?

[signal cipher]

🤫

[plush pelican]

Is there a website that lists restrictions of what you can and can't do in Partizipialsätze?

[signal cipher]

There is. Deutchplus

Let me find the page

[plush pelican]

https://www.deutschplus.net/en/pages/480/1386

this?

[signal cipher]

Look at the bottom part

https://www.deutschplus.net/en/pages/Nebensatz_mit_finiter_infiniter_Verbform

[plush pelican]

Yeah, I think my eyes glazed over with that part, 😅

[signal cipher]

I couldn’t understand why but we can’t. It’s probably something with passive

Things we can’t use in passive sentence thing.

I just guess

[plush pelican]

I mean, I think if I think of the meanings, it makes sense, but that's because we do something similar in English

I have no idea how to explain that

[swift bough]

Can you give example sentences of what you are talking about

[signal cipher]

The man “who” lived in New York. It’s sounds okay to me.

[signal cipher]

Click the links above

[plush pelican]

the problem is, you switch to Partizip 1 with that.

Der einst in New York lebende Mann

[signal cipher]

I couldn’t understand why part.

Why we can’t

[plush pelican]

Yeah, I don't think I can explain this properly, I just know it because of my English knowledge

[signal cipher]

If it’s because passive. We can use the verbs with sein.

This is a mystery

[signal cipher]

How can I search about it in English

[plush pelican]

Well, we don't really do these Partizipialsätze in English

[signal cipher]

That’s obvious:)

[plush pelican]

we pretty much always do Relativsätze instead

[signal cipher]

We don’t have relative clause 😮

[swift bough]

I hate how I don't even remember some of these grammar terms so idk what's going on lmao

[signal cipher]

Only Partizipalsätz

[plush pelican]

Partizipialsatz:

Der Mann, der in New York lebt. = Der in New York lebende Mann.

Der Mann, der läuft. = Der laufende Mann

[swift bough]

Oh

[plush pelican]

There are apparently restrictions on when you can do a Partizipialsatz

[swift bough]

So what was the actual question

[signal cipher]

Partizipal -> Partizip 1, Partizip 2
Sätz -> Clause

[plush pelican]

for certain verbs, it is not possible with Partizip 2 (gespielt), IF:

• the verb is intransitive (takes no accusative object)
• has "haben" as an auxiliary verb (haben gespielt)

[reef moss]

Most commonly during insults 😉

[signal cipher]

There wasn’t 🙂 I have just informed him if he interest or not

[reef moss]

You friendship ruining piece of… (You know the rest)

[swift bough]

Tbh those Partizip sentences I come across most often when I am reading

They can get really confusing really fast lol

Especially if you go to wikipedia

[reef moss]

As with anything, you get used to it with time. The more you read, the easier it gets

[signal cipher]

A legend says they are not used in daily talk

[swift bough]

They are only confusing bc I mostly speak and listen and do not read nearly as much so I'm not used to their structure

[reef moss]

Most of the time, no, and by most of the time… nearly never

[signal cipher]

Since we use only them in our native, I wonder them a lot

We don’t have relative clause

[swift bough]

lemme see if I can find a really long one

[signal cipher]

I also want to use infinitive clause in Mittelfeld. I have learned there is an old opportunity for that

[plush pelican]

Ich habe erst vor Kurzem zu arbeiten angefangen.

You can do that, but it's needlessly confusing

[signal cipher]

Everybody knows IV and V are better Evos.

[plush pelican]

Also, it's mainly shorter Infinitivsätze, and I believe it can't be an Infinitivsatz that starts with "um" or "ohne" or "anstatt"

[plush pelican]

I found one a while back

[plush pelican]

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saladin#Tod,_Ehrengrab_und_Nachfolge

Saladin kehrte im November 1192 nach Damaskus zurück, wo sein Sohn al-Afdal zu ihm stieß. Dieser übernahm während Saladins im Februar 1193 offenbar werdender, zum Tod führender Krankheit immer mehr administrative Aufgaben von seinem Vater. Saladin starb am 3. oder 4. März 1193 im Alter von 55 Jahren in Damaskus.

Dieser übernahm während Saladins (im Februar 1193 offenbar werdender, zum Tod führender) Krankheit immer mehr administrative Aufgaben von seinem Vater.

He assumed during Saladin's in-February-1193-obvious-becoming, to-death-leading sickness more and more administrative tasks from his father.

[swift bough]

I would answer but that's so off topic lmao

[signal cipher]

And maybe VI

[serene mountain]

Dw figured it out 🙂

[uncut cove]

The superlative form of gut is "am besten" so why does the am get removed here while acting as an adjective ending.

[plush pelican]

the "am" bit is only used when the adjective is on its own, not when it is in front of a noun

[uncut cove]

Ahhh... verstanden

Danke schön

[vernal ermine]

Bro! Any idea?

[plush pelican]

I think I've finally understood your question

"sich + lassen" is used as a quasi passive

Das Buch lässt sich leicht lesen. = Das Buch kann leicht gelesen werden.

I really didn't understand what you were asking before

Did you see this table I posted in the other channel with other quasi passive stuff?

#questions message

[vernal ermine]

I see it now only.

[plush pelican]

*I'm just now seeing it

Note that "sich + lassen" is not just the passive alone

it's passive with "können"

Das Buch lässt sich leicht lesen. = Das Buch kann leicht gelesen werden.

That table shows, the different quasi passive things often also imply a modal verb

And sometimes, it can be ambiguous and depend on the meaning of the sentence

Like the row talking about sein + zu + verb

Depending on the meaning, this can imply passive + können, passive + sollen, passive + müssen

Die Aufgabe ist leicht zu lösen = Die Aufgabe kann leicht gelöst werden.

Die Tür ist abends abzuschließen. = Die Tür muss/soll abends abgeschlossen werden.

[vernal ermine]

I have another question. In "N" declension , do we add "s" or "es" to the noun that has "N" declension.

[plush pelican]

oh wait

s or es

I believe it's always -s, if anything gets added

But sometimes, neither -s nor -es gets added

Sometimes, the only thing at the end is the -n from the N declension

sometimes, it's -ns, so both -n from N declension and -s from Genitive

"der Gedanke" has -ns

der "Bär" has just -en, no -s or -es

I think most of the time, you just have the -n or -en from the N Declension, and then a small group within the N Declension nouns also adds an -s for Genitive on top of the -n or -en

[vernal ermine]

So I have to memorise those bro?

[plush pelican]

...yeah...

Also, sometimes even Germans don't agree which one is right, 😄

[vernal ermine]

Where can I find those N declensions?

[plush pelican]

a list of all the nouns that do N declension?

I don't have a list of all of them, but here is a website with a lot of them: https://mein-deutschbuch.de/n-deklination.html

Remember: N declension is only some masculine nouns (plus "das Herz")

and actually, "das Herz" is an example where Germans disagree on the Genitive

-ens, or -es

so I guess that's the one time it's -es, 🤔

oh wait, the second version doesn't do N declension for "das Herz" at all

weird

[vernal ermine]

Yeah bro or any dictionary which shows N declensions also.

[plush pelican]

Wiktionary will show it

https://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/Herz

[vernal ermine]

In "N" declensions, if we add N or en to masculine nouns, mostly it looks like a plural noun. How the receiver will think whether I am using singular or plural?

[plush pelican]

well, an indefinite article will definitely show singular, 😄

Ich habe einen Bären

That can't possibly be plural

definite article can also show it in dative or genitive

Ich helfe mit dem Bären.

If that were plural, that would be mit den Bären.

Ich habe den Ball des Bären.

If that were plural, that would be den Ball der Bären.

[vernal ermine]

But I think that they will be assume that I am using the wrong Artikel for the plural noun.

[plush pelican]

so your main issue is going to be

1. singular, accusative den Bären, which could also look like dative plural den Bären
2. when there is no article at all, so just "Bären"

In the first case, native speakers know when to use accusative vs. dative, so that won't confuse them

in the second case, that is a genuine problem, and sometimes you just have to rely on context.

Unfortunately, German sometimes is ambiguous

and you have to rely on context or add in some extra explanation to make clear what you mean

[vernal ermine]

If we didn't apply N declensions, does it mean wrong?

[plush pelican]

yes, if it is a word with n declension and you don't do it, that's wrong

However, native speakers can often understand you despite mistakes

[vernal ermine]

Unfortunately they introduce N declensions in B1 level. If they introduced in A1 or A2 then it would be fine.

[plush pelican]

I mean, it's a complicated topic. I can understand them not wanting to introduce it until later

students should learn how declension works for most nouns before learning how it is weird for these weird nouns, 😄

[vernal ermine]

Sometimes I fear bro, if I use N declensions, it would be wrong @plush pelican

[plush pelican]

Well, you only use it for the specific list of nouns that has it

[vernal ermine]

Well I try to add it bro!

Vielen Dank❤ @plush pelican

[charred harbor]

No

It’s noun-specific

[charred harbor]

Not a correction but what do you mean by “ich helfe mit dem Bären”?

Like “I’ll help you deal with it”?

N-declination is for masculine nouns, yeah
Although you could argue “das Herz” is an exception

Oh Argus mentioned that earlier 😄

[charred harbor]

^

It doesn’t apply to every masculine noun, only some of them

Memorisation and experience

This is a good list https://www.deutschmm.com/n-deklination-complete-list/

[plush pelican]

yeah, like you're in a circus and you have to deal with the bear for some reason

[charred harbor]

I see, thanks 😆 I thought maybe you meant “ich helfe dem Bären” or something, seems like a much more common example

[pure crescent]

Probably the teddy bear is broken and the speaker offers to help repair it! 🥺 🥺

[uncut cove]

I have a dumb question... do numbers have gender??
Like cardinal numbers have the endings "-te" and "-ste" but when preceded by a Dativ Preposition such as an, von, seit, zu - they take the dativ endings "-ten" and "-sten", eg-"Am ersten" but these endings depend on the gender right??

[charred harbor]

Ich war ziemlich verwirrt weil es keinen Kontext gab xD

[pure crescent]

numbers have a gender when nouns, yes.
But your examples depend on the gender of the noun that is being "counted".

[uncut cove]

Oooohhhhhhhh

[pure crescent]

Like other adjectives too

[uncut cove]

So months are masculine hence am and not an der

[charred harbor]

Numbers by themselves are usually feminine (die Eins, die Zwei, die Drei…) from “die Zahl/die Nummer”, I think.

[uncut cove]

??

[uncut cove]

Got it, thanks a lot

[pure crescent]

Am ersten Tag des Monats gibt es immer gratis Schokolade.
An der ersten Bushaltestelle, die du siehst, solltest du rechts abbiegen.

[uncut cove]

Understood. Danke schön!!!

[fervent kernel]

Der Boxer lag nach der dritten Runde besiegt am Boden.
Couod someone explain to why besiegt is in this position
And could I phrase the sentence differently?

[plush pelican]

"besiegt" is acting here like an adverb, I believe.

How was he lying on the floor? He was lying there defeated.

TeKaMoLo order of adverbs, aka

Wann
Warum
Wie
Wo

Wann - nach der dritten Runde
Wie - besiegt
Wo - auf dem Boden

[fervent kernel]

Got it, thanks

It's wo/wohin or just wo?

[spiral vapor]

I can't find "besiegt" as an adverb in Duden. Wouldn't it be an adjective? Wie lag er am Boden? Er lag besiegt am Boden.
https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/besiegt#google_vignette

[acoustic breach]

Most, if not all, german adjectives can act as adverb, no?

[spiral vapor]

so it's describing the boxer, not the way he was laying? or both?

[plush pelican]

If it's answering "how" he was lying there, it has to be acting as an adverb, no?

[spiral vapor]

Yes, but I can't find it anywhere as an "adverb" whereas normally it would say it's both an adverb and an adjective

[plush pelican]

I could be wrong about it being an adverb, but if so, I don't know how to explain it. Do you have an alternative explanation that involves it being an adjective that explains the word order?

[spiral vapor]

@plush pelican Found it

@acoustic breach@fervent kernel

[plush pelican]

"besiegt" is Partizip 2, not 1

[spiral vapor]

oooh, sorry, i cant read uuh

[plush pelican]

Don't you need a Kopulaverb (sein, bleiben, werden) in order to have an adjective on its own (not directly attached to a noun)?

Der Boxer ist besiegt.
Der Boxer bleibt besiegt.

Hmm, also "aussehen"

Der Boxer sieht müde aus.

https://deutschegrammatik20.de/verbformen/das-partizip-ii/partizip-ii/die-verwendung-des-partizips-ii/

[spiral vapor]

Alright, this time I found it. @plush pelican You are right, it is an adverb.
I was confused because it didn't show in Duden as one.

yup, we found the same thing

[plush pelican]

Lol

[spiral vapor]

Sorry for confusion

[plush pelican]

So it is acting as an adverb, and my explanation is valid, 😅

[fervent kernel]

Wir hatten auf die Erteilung unseres Vismus seit wochen vergeblich gewartet
Is the order in this sentence correct?

[plush pelican]

No

TeKaMoLo first off

Wann
Warum
Wie
Wo

Time adverbs near the front

2nd, there's something called among other names "Verbgefährte"

When you have a prepositional phrase used with a verb tightly

Auf etwas warten

[fervent kernel]

So where should "auf die..." be?

[plush pelican]

"auf etwas" is a Verbgefährte. It clings tightly to the verb

It goes right before the rechte Satzklammer, the spot near the end for verbs

Wann - seit Wochen
Wie - vergeblich

Verbgefährte - auf die Erteilung unserer Visa (I assume y'all each receive one)

Verbgefährte come after TeKaMoLo, right before the verb spot near the end

However

This is just the general "neutral word order"

If you want to stress something, emphasize it, you can move things around

And for certain sentences, such a stress would be so natural that Germans consider that order to be the best way to say it

[fervent kernel]

Wir hatten seit Wochen vergeblich auf die Erteilung unseres Vismus gewartet.
Right?

[plush pelican]

Such an advanced feel for the language, is something I don't yet have, so all I can tell you is the general neutral word order.

[plush pelican]

For the general neutral order, yes

Vismus?

[fervent kernel]

Visums

Sorry

[plush pelican]

There's just the 1 visa for both of y'all?

[fervent kernel]

It's in the book
In real life no...

[plush pelican]

There are times when German does this thing where it uses a singular noun and "splits it up" among multiple people, 🤔

Always seems weird to me, though

[plush pelican]

What book?

[plush pelican]

Btw: word order

[plush pelican]

What is the name of the book?

[fervent kernel]

Lerngrammatik zur Studienvorbereitung

[plush pelican]

Never heard of that. But I haven't done a ton of books, so

[plush pelican]

It's both wo and wohin

Just saw this

[fervent kernel]

Was gonna ask again
Thanks

[signal cipher]

Is it directly adverb or that predicative appositive thing?

[long whale]

I'd say the sentence would show up like this both in writing and in speaking. The plural of "das Visum" is "die Visa", yes, so, "... auf die Erteilung unserer Visa" would also be correct, but makes the reader wonder whether each of the people had more than 1 visa - e.g. to travel to various countries one after the other. Whereas if you say "unseres Visums", it's clear each of you needed just 1. @plush pelican

Best check >faq Präteritum in #botchannel to get the most important question cleared up. Feel free to come back here for further questions, of course. 🌻

[long whale]

It's an adverbially used adjective - if that's what you mean? 🤔

[signal cipher]

This thing:
I came home “drunk”.
The man was walking “singing”.

[long whale]

Yes, I think we're on the same page. Partizip II can usually be used as an adjective (ein betrunkener Mann), and then, it can also be used adverbially, as in "ich ging betrunken nach Hause"

[signal cipher]

Danke schön

[signal cipher]

Do you know any guide about their placements in the sentence?

One source said you can’t write them in Nachfeld. I don’t know any other info.

[rich prism]

In perfekt: haben+ partizip 2+ werden +modalverb
Pluperfekt: hatten + partizip 2 + werden + modalverb

https://mein-deutschbuch.de/vorgangspassiv.html

[dull jackal]

Was! Ich habe die Serie Friedefeld geschaute, und es sagte "gerooft." Das ist gleich mit Englisch " roofied"?

[pure crescent]

You sure it wasn't gerufen? 🥲

[dull jackal]

nope, they woke up after a party wondering what happened.

[rich prism]

?

[fervent kernel]

Er wird demnächst des schweren Diebstahls vor dem Landgericht Freiburg angeklagt
Why is genetiv being used here?
Is demnächst always used with genetiv?

[rich prism]

no

[fervent kernel]

I got confused
Is this grammatically correct?
I think werden should be added at the end of the sentence

[pure crescent]

jemanden des Xs anklagen always takes Genitiv

Ich klage dich der Verleumdung an
Er wird des Diebstahls angeklagt
Können Sie sie des Mordes anklagen?

He will soon be charged with grand theft at the Landgericht Freiburg

[fervent kernel]

Understood
Thx

[fervent kernel]

Peter arbeitet sonntags normalerweise nicht
Can this sentence be formed in passiv?(I'm reading about Das unpersönliche Passiv...)

[delicate tiger]

"Sonntags wird normalerweise nicht gearbeitet."

[rich prism]

Handys müssen ausgeschaltet sein.

The phones must be shut off. That is phones must be in the State of being off

?

[blazing ginkgo]

in my logic it's like, "Handys ... " is the subject so "Mobile phone + ... "
then, "mussen ... sein" means "must be " so "Mobile phone must be + ..."
then, " ...ausgeschaltet... " means "turned off" so "Mobile phone must be turned off"

[rich prism]

This is what it means, because it is zustandpassiv, it is saying the phones must be off

It can be abit confusing, in english there isn't really a way to distinguish wether it is about the state or the process in things like this. Its something new you have to learn

still don't get what you mean

[blazing ginkgo]

the position of each parts or you mean?

[blazing ginkgo]

yesss

[rich prism]

Like this?

[blazing ginkgo]

as you practice and master the grammar skill, your brain will automatically translate in the order of that sentence but in english/your language:D

[rich prism]

Phones must be turned off can either mean you have to turn your phone off or your phone must be off, no distinction

[blazing ginkgo]

cuz then you'll understand why it is it and how it stands

[rich prism]

Präteritum: modalverb in präteritum + partizip 2 + sein
Perfekt: haben + partizip 2 + sein + modalverb
Pluperfekt: hatten + partizip 2+ sein + modalverb
Furur i: werden + partizip 2 +sein + modalverb

The car must be washed

[blazing ginkgo]

oh i used to struggle that, i think it's bc

[rich prism]

Muss- must
Gewaschen- washed
Sein-be

[blazing ginkgo]

youre learning words invidually, how about trying phrases?

[rich prism]

Yes this seems to be the problem

Ahhh, I think I get you abit

The house had to have been built

At some point in the past

why?

[blazing ginkgo]

the tense you get depends on mussen or mussten

[rich prism]

I'm struggling to understand

Is it that you can't link the English and German together?

[blazing ginkgo]

the grammar & tenses btween 2 language is not 100% the same yk?

if you try to link it perfectly then that's why it gets bit hard-

[rich prism]

passiv is abit tricky because some things don't exist in english

[blazing ginkgo]

just, past and present you need to distinguish them 2 first

[rich prism]

I think I get your problem now

Distinctions like this don't exist in english

[blazing ginkgo]

then past perfect/continuous/... are on the context of the line:D

[blazing ginkgo]

yes, this is the problem

[rich prism]

Das Haus musste gebaut sein
Das Haus musste gebaut werden.
Both mean, the house had to have been built

[blazing ginkgo]

like, in my lang the only past tense is sentence with "đã", no more - which is a another thing in english

[rich prism]

so what exactly is the problem.?

[blazing ginkgo]

as i said, if you try to link it perfectly then that's why it gets bit hard

[signal cipher]

Why are you trying to link basketball and football? You can’t.

[blazing ginkgo]

2 things in Ger can means 1 in English then why you need to try adding 1 more in English?

[rich prism]

?

[blazing ginkgo]

oh I'm replying for cat person sorry

theyre not the same, 2 languages have its differrence so don't try too hard, sometimes it is less complicated than you think

this one is a hard one for me to say, as we have different approach but for me it is just "past"

furthermore for me will be due to the context

[rich prism]

There are several german grammar rules with no English equivalent

You just have to know it off hand kind of

[blazing ginkgo]

hmmm, I've studied for A2.2 but never rlly sees my teacher uses gewesen

[rich prism]

No, incorrect. Ypu can't form zustandpassiv with movement verbs.

Zustandpassiv indicates a state

[blazing ginkgo]

you should understand clearer grammar tense form start

there is some rules you might have passed, that's why you ended up confusing with the meaning

[rich prism]

You cannot be in the state of going, you are in the process of going

Zustandpassiv must indicate a state

Thank God

[long whale]

Could you link to the original question? This is quite confusing...

[rich prism]

A native speaker has arrived

[blazing ginkgo]

oh okay

[rich prism]

Yes

[blazing ginkgo]

i think it start from here, but can you restate your question?

we need a summary

[rich prism]

@plush stream
It seems you font understand the topic of passiv at all, maybe review it first

why not

[long whale]

Sure. Like... my washing machine is running right now. So, I'd say: Die Wäsche wird gewaschen (The washing is being done; My clothes are being washed). Afterwards, looking at the washing on the line, or in the basket or in the wardrobe, I'll say: Die Wäsche ist gewaschen (The washing is done; My clothes are clean)

Zustandspassiv with modal verbs is extremely tricky, since it's mostly used in a subjective sense (for making guesses).

[rich prism]

oo can you give an example

[long whale]

Dieser Mantel kann gewaschen werden = This coat can be washed, it's possible to wash this coat.

Dieser Mantel könnte gewaschen sein = This coat might have been washed

[rich prism]

Isn't this vorgangpassiv

[rich prism]

Oh I get it

[rich prism]

So konjunktiv ii zustandpassiv mit modalverben = guess

No

Also @long whale is it awkward to use it without konjunktiv ii

[long whale]

Look, all of those are so extremely rare, or, like the Perfekt, even non-Standard, I'd have to go hunting through grammar book sites to even find examples. 😓

[rich prism]

Dieser Mantel konnte gewaschen sein.
Is it an odd thing

It's very rarely mentioned because its rarely used

[long whale]

A bit, yes.

Can't really imagine a situation where I'd say that.

[rich prism]

Like this coat could be washed (and it's washed now)

[long whale]

konnte is Präteritum

[rich prism]

So if I wanted to say Like I could wash this coat what would u say

Like in english, you've been struggling to wash a coat and then you're Like hey I could finally wash this coat

[long whale]

could as in would be able to, or as in was able to?

[rich prism]

Yes was a able to

[signal cipher]

What does that mean? Don’t we use werden for all verbs in VorgangsPassive?

[long whale]

Es ist mir gelungen, den Mantel zu waschen. Ich habe es geschafft, den Mantel zu waschen. Yes, [Ich konnte den Mantel waschen] is viable, it's just not all that common, IMO.

[rich prism]

Ohk thanks

[signal cipher]

Do they say it can be said only in VorgangsPassive?

[long whale]

I'd have said we do, yes. I'm also not sure what "Gerundiv (modal participle) +..." means? Do they give an example?

[blazing ginkgo]

After all things here, I started to concern how I survived DSD I

[rich prism]

This is b2 grammar

[long whale]

TIL - "modal participle"... Okay.

[blazing ginkgo]

i had a break from German for a while and now it's everything new

[signal cipher]

What

[long whale]

(Frankly, this is another structure you, ehh, won't see all that often. Not outside of highbrow newspaper articles, that is. I'm not convinced this is something anyone needs to actually learn rules for and practice. And mind you, I get accused of being "too formal/conservative" here...)

[rich prism]

How weird does this sound Die Schuhe hätten nicht gepasst sein können

[signal cipher]

Danke schön.

[long whale]

It's just wrong/gibberish. I think "passen" is one of those verbs you can't put into Passiv at all, since it's intransitive.

cat person, if it's all that important to you, I suggest you do your own hunting through grammar books, e.g. Hammer's German Grammar. 🌻

[rich prism]

hmmm. How would you day the shoes couldn't have fit

sorry for pinging you much 🌚

[long whale]

Pinging me about questions is not a problem. In this case, the problem is the English sentence. In what kind of situation would you say that?

[rich prism]

Like, a guess

Maybe you're talking about someone and then it's like those couldn't have fit her, could they?

Or that couldn't have happened

[long whale]

Say, you're sad because the shoe shop was closed before you left, so, you couldn't try on those beautiful shoes they had in the window? And I'm trying to console you by saying they wouldn't have fit you anyway? Die Schuhe hätten dir ohnehin/sowieso nicht gepasst.

[rich prism]

Yes something like that

[long whale]

Yes, that's one of the problems, I'm afraid.

[vernal ermine]

Good evening friends! Can I use seit or seitdem as connektor? Which one?

[rich prism]

Is that how most are structured?

[long whale]

Ah, no. German has a lot of rules, more than many other languages, but in the end, there are always going to be a lot of things which don't fit into them. Those have to be learnt as is, or learnt by input. Yes, trust me, I know, that's one of the most frustrating things about language learning.

[long whale]

You can use both: Ich arbeite, seit[dem] ich die Universität abgeschlossen habe. However, if it's not a connector but a preposition, you can only use "seit": Ich arbeite seit 10 Jahren/2014/meinem Bachelorabschluss.

A good rule of thumb is: intransitive verbs and verbs using "sein" in Perfekt are mostly... awkward, if not impossible in Passiv.

[signal cipher]

There are sites which list them

[vernal ermine]

Danke 🙂

[signal cipher]

We need translators which do literal translations.

Sites, apps I mean

[long whale]

I'm curious. How would that help?

[signal cipher]

Language comparisons

[hasty tartan]

"ich spreche drei Sprachen" is this correct

[charred harbor]

Yes

[autumn marsh]

I'd also find that helpful tbh, when starting out
it's also funny as hell haha

not much use beyond A2 but in the beginning, it can help

[vernal ermine]

Does brauchen only replaces müssen?

[long whale]

Huh? How would you replace "need/brauchen" with "müssen" in "We need milk/Wir brauchen Milch" - ?

[vernal ermine]

@long whale can I replace only müssen with brauchen. Do I can follow this for some other modal verb?

[long whale]

You can only replace "brauchen" with "müssen" in negative sentences! Wir müssen die Küche putzen ✅ Wir brauchen die Küche zu putzen ❌

[long whale]

I don't know what you mean. If you use a different modal verb, it will change the meaning.

[vernal ermine]

Yeah, this is what I am searching. Danke

[long whale]

Had to think about this for a while... For what it's worth, I'd say you can use it with Zustandspassiv as well: Das zu lösende Problem ist abgehakt. (My problem being: I wouldn't say "das zu lösende Problem" in the first place. I'd say "das wichtigste/dringendste Problem". "das Hauptproblem". Or something.

[signal cipher]

Danke schön die zu dankende Susana

[acoustic tendon]

was bin ich sehend?

[long whale]

Guys, I can see why you'd think this is funny. Still, you don't want to add to other poor learners' confusion, do you? 🥹

[fervent kernel]

Darunter leiden vor allem Familien mit mehrern Kindern.
How do I know which position to put darunter in the passive sentence?

Es wird vor allem Familien mit mehreren Kindern daruber gelitten.
Is the sentence structure correct like this?

[long whale]

Well... you forgot to put in the appropriate "von" (denoting the former subject). And it's darunter, not darüber (daruber doesnt even exist). Apart from those errors, your sentence is very, very theoretically viable.

[fervent kernel]

Got it
Thx

But if I put darunter in the 3rd position
Would the sentence still make sense?
Es wird darunter...

[fervent kernel]

Do prepositional verbs and verbs that take dative require the use of 'es' in the passive sentences?

[long whale]

Require? No.

[fervent kernel]

Maybe I phrased the question incorrectly
I meant, if the 2nd verb is always wird or not...
Cuz I know that "es" could be deleted like this sentence
ihnen wird geholfen

[signal cipher]

What is prepositional verb

[long whale]

auf jemanden warten, for example

[signal cipher]

Haa verb with preposition

[long whale]

The [conjugated part of the] verb is always in Pos. 2 in a main clause. Pretty much anything can be in Pos. 1. - if that is what you meant?

Also, I'm starting to wonder whether I ought to point out that Vorgangspassiv is used a lot less in German than in English. A lot.

[fervent kernel]

The verb in the 2nd position is 'wird' right?
Like it can't be werden or werdet...

[long whale]

For prepositional and Dativ verbs, yes. It can only be "wird".

[fervent kernel]

Understood
Thank u

[signal cipher]

@fervent kernel

https://www.deutschplus.net/en/pages/Unpersonliches_Passiv

@fervent kernel What is you native?

[fervent kernel]

Why are you asking this?

[signal cipher]

Just asked. I am not an agent. If you don’t want to answer okay.

So Arabic?

[long whale]

... #questions

[fervent kernel]

Didn't understand the question properly
My bad

[fervent kernel]

@plain umbra

[plain umbra]

Yes?

[plush pelican]

The conjugated verb is always in position 2 in a main clause.

Ich helfe dem Mann.
Dem Mann wird geholfen.

One can either say that here is is a hidden "es" subject that has been left out

[fervent kernel]

Just pinged you to block that dude.
Thx

[plain umbra]

Okay, please ping mod role when you want to report something. Or use #report-issue .

[plush pelican]

Or that certain sentences that have no proper subject use the conjugation of 3rd person singular

The 2nd view has some other support

When an entire clause is the subject, you also use 3rd person singular conjugation

Dass du mir hilfst, ist keine Überraschung.

[serene mountain]

Could you say 'Ich bin sprechen' as well as 'Ich spreche'?

[plush pelican]

I am to speak?

[serene mountain]

I am speaking

[plush pelican]

German doesn't have a continuous tense like that

They just use the main verb

[serene mountain]

Is that the first one yeah?

[plush pelican]

Ich spreche = I speak
Ich spreche = I am speaking

[serene mountain]

Yeah, ok was just wondering if 'Ich bin sprechen' was possible

[plush pelican]

Not to mean "I am speaking"

There is an advanced concept that has that formulation... but it means something totally different and it's not worth mentioning right now

[signal cipher]

Search absentiv

I mentioned. I am anarchic.

[serene mountain]

Alrighty

[radiant igloo]

@plush pelican So there is no different between in the Sentence "ich spreche " for I speak and " ich spreche " for I am speaking?

[plush pelican]

I mean, you can do certain things if you really want to emphasize that it's happening right now

Ich spreche gerade

But generally, when English would use the continuous stuff, the German equivalent is just the simple verb

I'm speaking with my sister.
Ich spreche mit meiner Schwester.

[radiant igloo]

And how to say " unless " in German?

[plush pelican]

https://www.dict.cc/?s=unless

[acoustic tendon]

es sei denn

[plush pelican]

There's a couple of possibilities

[radiant igloo]

So that's mean that " es sei denn " is not always correct, if man use it in the Sentence?

[plush pelican]

Possibly? I think that works most of the time, but not always

[serene mountain]

@plush pelican Was it you who linked the document a few days ago on useful links and stuff?

[fervent kernel]

Auch das deutsche passiv lässt sich lernen
In ersatzformen if I wanna use sich+infinitiv/ zu+infinitiv I would have to add "leicht " right?
Auch das deutsche Passiv lernt sich leicht/Auch das deutsche Passiv ist leichr zu lernen

[radiant igloo]

@plush pelican Pardon me. How to say the equality Gender in German?

[plush pelican]

This? https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wXT17O_M6NW6DUUOVpGCEyCz07QfJhYRJa7R8oWEKok/edit

[plush pelican]

What do you mean by "equality gender"?

Also: If you just want a translation, use DeepL

[plush pelican]

no, "leicht" is not necessary

"sich + lassen" on its own = können

You can also go the other way

Diese Sprache lässt sich nur schwer lernen. = This language can only be learned with difficulty.

[serene mountain]

Yeah which one did you use the most out of the top four?

[plush pelican]

I used all of the links in the entire document, except for the list of apps at the end, I only used like 2 of those.

[radiant igloo]

I mean equality between women and men who can work on the same Job.

[plush pelican]

"Gleichstellung der Geschlechter", I think?

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleichstellung_der_Geschlechter

[long whale]

die Gleichberechtigung

[plush pelican]

https://www.boeckler.de/de/auf-einen-blick-17945-studien-zu-gleichstellung-und-geschlechtergerechtigkeit-21085.htm

Während der Begriff der Gleichberechtigung die Ebene der Rechte umfasst, zielt der Begriff der Gleichstellung darauf ab, die Lebenssituation der im Prinzip gleichberechtigten Gruppen politisch umzusetzen.

🤔

[long whale]

(die Gleichstellung also exists, as in "die Gleichstellungsbeauftragte", but I've yet to hear the word used in the wild)

[plush pelican]

@long whale Does this mean "Gleichberechtigung" means 'merely' no active discrimination, and "Gleichstellung" means that the government actively works to make the two groups have equal outcomes?

[acoustic tendon]

don't you have to say the "- der Geschlechter" bit

[plush pelican]

the word is used so often with regards to men and women that that part is often understood

like how when you talk about "reparations" in English, everyone knows that means "for Black people" and it has to do with racial issues

[acoustic tendon]

hmm i see

[long whale]

Not in daily life, and not if saying the politically correct thing isn't your job. 🤷

[radiant igloo]

So I've just use " Gleichgeschlechsverkehr " but unfortunately that mean different.

[plush pelican]

lol

[acoustic tendon]

lol

[long whale]

Exactly.

[plush pelican]

So then which is meant by "gender equality", then? 🤔

The English wiki "gender equality" links to the German "Gleichstellung der Geschlechter"

[radiant igloo]

Ya. Unfortunately der Gleichgeschlechsverkehr mean like something on LGBT. I'm sorry if i wrote this Things.

[plush pelican]

Is this perhaps a political thing, a divide between centrists and left-wing?

[acoustic tendon]

so what exactly is Gleichgeschlectsverkehr

is this ajike

joke*

[plush pelican]

"Geschlechtsverkehr" = sex

[acoustic tendon]

yeah i know but

why add gleich before it

[plush pelican]

they were trying to make "gender equality"

[plush pelican]

The English wiki says:

Gender equality can refer to equal opportunities or formal equality based on gender or refer to equal representation or equality of outcomes for gender, also called substantive equality.

So apparently the English term can mean either Gleichberechtigung or Gleichstellung. And I bet more left-wing people push for Gleichstellung rather than "mere" Gleichberechtigung.

[long whale]

No, it doesn't.

Yeah, deepl can't really decide, either. 😹

@plush pelican

[radiant igloo]

@long whale So der Gleichgeschlechsverkehr doesn't mean like homosexual?

[long whale]

It probably depends more on the context you're talking/writing in.

[acoustic tendon]

I don't think bro was trying to come up with gender equality

[plush pelican]

are you now asking about LGBT terms?

[long whale]

No. The word doesn't exist. homosexual sex = homosexueller Geschlechtsverkehr; gleichgeschlechtlicher Verkehr

[radiant igloo]

@plush pelican No. I'm just confused but i don't want too if i use a wrong Word in German.

[hasty tartan]

Should I learn from Learn with anja
(my basic A1 level)

[long whale]

Not sure/Can't remember what your native language is, but I'd recommend checking deepl to see whether it supports your language.

[long whale]

Can't hurt, but I'd always recommend a course like one of those here: https://learngerman.dw.com/en/learn-german/s-9528 and/or a course book.

[hasty tartan]

ich liebe dich fur Das (hope im correct)

[acoustic tendon]

are German Wikipedia articles c2

i should read 2-3 of those every day

[long whale]

No, it isn't correct: Ich liebe dich dafür (which is a B1 topic, I believe)

[hasty tartan]

Oh

Im A1 :3

[plush pelican]

German Wikipedia articles, like English Wikipedia articles, vary wildly in their reading difficulty

If you want guaranteed C2 stuff, just use Google Scholar and start reading some linguistics papers in German

[acoustic tendon]

Or like scientific papers

[hasty tartan]

I dont understand how this website works

do we just go to A1 and watch the stuff or wut

[long whale]

Depends on the entries. Some are so completely awful, they're hard to make sense of, some are well-written. Try spektrum.de - they usually contain at least one grammatical error, but you can always ask here if you suspect you've found one.

[plush pelican]

https://learngerman.dw.com/en/nicos-weg/c-36519789

[hasty tartan]

I dont know enough german to understand the video

wut to do then?

[long whale]

... and learn the vocab, e.g. by using Anki (faq for that in #botchannel) and do the exercises.

[hasty tartan]

oke

[plush pelican]

[long whale]

Nothing. It's just the 1st one which has frightened you off. They are trying to make you understand that in German, there is formal address (for people you'd call "sir" or "madam" or "Mr/Ms Brown" in English) and informal address (what you use with friends and family).

[acoustic tendon]

love it

[hasty tartan]

okay I ll see more about this

[acoustic tendon]

"Dieser Artikel ist nur mit Abo von »Spektrum - Die Woche« zugänglich."

[acoustic tendon]

if it's a pdf or an epub or whatever that's called send

looks interesting

reminds me of that one time i read Sigmund Freud's paper on the word unheimlich

[plush pelican]

https://ub01.uni-tuebingen.de/xmlui/bitstream/handle/10900/47023/pdf/Reis_Subjektbegriff.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

[acoustic tendon]

i recommend it btw, it was fun

[plush pelican]

you have an interesting definition of the word "fun"

[south silo]

@ebon axle @severe void deine Sprache ist super Leute,, woher kommt ihr?

[ebon axle]

sind deutsch

also leben in Deutschland

[grave vale]

hallo ich bin neu beim Server, warum ich kann nicht ins VC rein gehen

[south silo]

@ebon axle ohh das macht Sinn,vielen Dank

ich freue mich euch zu horen

[long whale]

I think that's only for some. 🤔 There are also a lot of FAZ articles without a paywall (those you can't read are marked with a red F, if I remember correctly). Surprisingly, I can also read articles from the German version of the National Geographic.

[long whale]

faq VC

[stoic mauve]

How to join Voice Chat

Please read the [Roles section](#getting-started message) in #getting-started for info on how to join VC and more!

[serene mountain]

Does anyone have an extensive list of common words used in the German language? I am thinking of a list probably nearing 500 words or something

[south silo]

@serene mountain ich glabue , dass du CHAT GPT benutzen kannst

[long whale]

Think: the list of the 500 most frequently used English words would mainly consist of words like "a, an, the, and, am, is, are..." Same in German. Except, since we have quite a few versions of "a" and "the", it would be even less useful. 🤷

[hearty flame]

Wie bekomme ich midliedstolle

Hallo ?

[iron swift]

mitgliedsrolle

[hearty flame]

Mitgliedsrolle

[long whale]

What do you mean? 🤔

[iron swift]

how do i get member role

[hearty flame]

Member role

I need

[long whale]

There is no such thing. 🤷

[iron swift]

how do we join a vc then?

[stoic mauve]

@iron swift, please read the Roles section in #getting-started for info on how to join VC and more.

[hearty flame]

Where can I become ist

[serene mountain]

Sehr gut

[south silo]

@long whale was ist Ihr Niveau in Deutsch?

[long whale]

All yellow people are native German speakers, and so am I.

[south silo]

ohh aber du hast arabisch Name

[long whale]

No. It isn't Arabic.

[south silo]

deshalb dachte ich dass , Sie Agypten sind

[long whale]

There are well over a dozen languages which use the Arabic script - without being Arabic.

[south silo]

I see 😄

[serene mountain]

Chat GPT couldn't count to 500 😭

[long whale]

Plus, please note the question channels are for questions about the German language (grammar, vocab, usage, etc.)

[long whale]

faq ChatGPT

[stoic mauve]

**AI-generated text**

This FAQ explains rules and advice for using text AI tools such as ChatGPT.

🔹 **Server rules regarding this topic:**

• Do not answer any questions by using AI-generated text.
• Do not ask for AI-generated text to be corrected.

🔹 **Problems with using AI for answers and corrections**

• No fact-checking: Tools like ChatGPT are very good at writing texts and often provide answers that sound good, but they are not capable of fact-checking their own answers.

• Fake information: It’s very common for these programs to make up fake or incomplete information, which is explained convincingly but is mostly wrong.

• Non-deterministic: The information is also partially randomly generated, meaning that if you ask the same question multiple times, you will usually end up with different answers.

• No language knowledge: It shouldn't be used for grammar or vocabulary questions, as it doesn't understand linguistics, nuance, or how a native speaker might actually use a given word or grammar point.

• Missing context: When correcting texts it needs to understand what the writer was trying to express. As such it may miss mistakes or correct things that don't need to be corrected.

🔹 **Reasons NOT to use generative AI for learning**

• It delays the development of important skills in language learning.
  Relying too much on AI generated texts or solutions may get in the way of learning the necessary skills of language acquisition, such as how to look up words or phrases in a dictionary, using critical thinking, or actually applying learned concepts.

• AI is not designed to guide learners.
  If you ask an AI a question, it will provide you with information, whereas if you ask a human, they will ideally ask you to show your understanding and offer advice on how to find the answer.

• AI output requires scrutiny
  AI output must be verified, but beginners to German or to language learning often lack the knowledge or experience to do so.

🔹 **Good uses of AI-generated text**

• Ask ChatGPT to come up with some story ideas that you can write about.

[serene mountain]

Oh wait dw, there was a continue generating button before 🙂

[serene mountain]

I assume that is there to assist me right?

[long whale]

Correct. 🌻 You also don't need it, since you just need to google sth like "500/1000/5000 most frequently used German words" and you'll get lists - for all the good they'll do you.

[thick prism]

Ich habe einen frage an ouch. wie geht es dir Ist „geht“ in diesem Satz eine Präposition?

[rich prism]

Nein, verb

[thick prism]

geht kommt in den meisten Satzmustern vor, bedeutet es in allen etwas anderes?

[plush pelican]

Man tauscht bei Fragen die Position von Verb und Subjekt, sodass das Verb am Anfang steht.

Das1 ist2 dein Mann.

Ist1 das2 dein Mann?

Wenn die Frage auch ein Fragewort hat, ein W-Wort (Wo, Wer, Warum, Wie, und so weiter), kommt das Fragewort zuerst, dann das Verb, dann das Subjekt.

Es1 geht2 dir gut.

Geht1 es2 dir gut?

Wie1 geht2 es3 dir?

[signal cipher]

“Nasıl gidiyor?” is used to mean “Nasılsın?”. Words may have multiple meanings, may have multiple translations in other languages and may have way different meanings in fixed phrases.

[plush pelican]

Ich dachte, sie kann kein Englisch, sodass es besser ist, wenn wir auf Deutsch (oder womöglich auf Türkisch) antworten.

[signal cipher]

Deepl, Google translations

And as I know it’s forbidden for me to write in Turkish in this chat.

[plush pelican]

oh

[cold pike]

is there a dictionary that explains german words in german?

[jaunty flame]

Da https://www.dwds.de/

[cold pike]

danke sehr

[long whale]

Depending on your level, you could try this one: https://en.pons.com/translate/dictionary-of-german-spelling/Schüler

(DWDS can be a bit intimidating if you're at a lower level)

[cold pike]

danke

i mostly just want a dictionary in german because theres some words that i want a more detailed explanation on

[jaunty flame]

(Ups. Apologies for suggesting DWDS without considering the learner's level. It went over my head 😬)

[broken oasis]

If there is only one object in a sentence, can it then only be an accusative object?

[rich prism]

no some verbs always take dative object

[plush pelican]

for example "helfen"

Ich helfe dir

[broken oasis]

@plush pelican Do you know where I can find a list of those verbs?

[plush pelican]

a list of verbs with dative objects?

[broken oasis]

yes

[plush pelican]

Try searching "German dative verbs list" on Google

Oh look: https://www.thoughtco.com/frequently-used-german-dative-verbs-4071410

[broken oasis]

Thank you

[night dagger]

We also have this @plush pelican

faq Pferd verb list

[stoic mauve]

FAQ not found. I found the following similar entry: Pferd's verb list (1)
Select one of the values in the brackets to directly open the suggested FAQ.

[night dagger]

faq pferd’s verb list

[stoic mauve]

Verbs with prepositions

Linked is a table of verbs with prepositional objects, and nouns and adjectives that are paired with certain prepositions. Examples sentences are given for (almost) every word.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14sOz9dpsht9aw7_z2hVhjCj-5tMc0MxshWbnerdcRPs/edit#gid=0

This table is curated by @near folio. Feel free to ping him directly if you have words or examples of your own or have noticed a mistake.

[plush pelican]

oooh

👍

[broken oasis]

help

[stoic mauve]

Eval commands

:small_blue_diamond: **eval** <code>

Evaluate the given code using an external compilation service. Any attempt to abuse this command will lead to a permanent blacklist.
Supported languages are: csharp (cs), java, python (py), c, c++ (cpp), haskell (hs), perl, nasm, javascript (js), lisp, kotlin (kt), brainfuck (bf) and rust (rs).
To use the command, specify a code block with your language of choice and provide any desired input in the same message, after the code block.
Example invocation with input:

`​`​`py
print('Hello,', input())
`​`​`
Barnabus Sandlers```
*Note: write out the command yourself, the example won't work if you copy it, due to Discord's formatting.*
:small_blue_diamond: Language specific notes:
- C# - the namespace and class must be called `Rextester` and `Program` respectively.
- Java - the class must be called `Rextester`

Page 4/18 (18 entries)

[plush pelican]

use #botchannel If you want to use the bot a lot

[broken oasis]

Sorry

[plush pelican]

no problem

[cold pike]

guys would "Ich habe von einige Mensch gelernt" be accurate translation as "I learned it from someone else"

[plush pelican]

no. It's not grammatically correct, but even if it were, it would mean, "I learned from some people"

Try: https://www.deepl.com/en/translator

[broken oasis]

Does anyone know a dictionary that shows where the stress is in a word?

[plush pelican]

Can you read IPA?

If so: https://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/Lehrer

But honestly, I just learned by listening to recordings and mimicking it

https://forvo.com/word/lehrer/#de

[uncut cove]

Can anyone help me understand why "sein" is required in this sentence??

[charred harbor]

It's the "be" in English

sein -> be
wird -> will
("will be" but flipped)

[uncut cove]

I was under the wrong assumption with the meaning of werden

[charred harbor]

Oh?

Werden does have a few meanings

[acoustic breach]

Did you think of the meaning "to become"?

[uncut cove]

Yeppp lol

[signal cipher]

https://yourdailygerman.com/werden-future-passive-german/

[rain talon]

Then why is Alles wird gut a complete sentence?

[charred harbor]

Implied verb I guess

Although I personally think it sounds better without it

Or I guess you could argue it's just "everything becomes good"

[fathom raft]

Two reasons, or maybe three I forgot:
One, wird can also be present continuous like "everything is becoming good" -> "Alles wird gut"
But that's like never what it means so more practically:
Two, it's a saying so grammar gets thrown out the window. Technically is is still "Alles wird gut werden" but yayyyyyyyyy Umgangssprache ✨

I thought of a third reason but I can't remember 😭

[charred harbor]

I think it could also be "alles wird gut sein" right?

[thick prism]

Ich hab eine frage an ouch . - wie gehts ? -gut danke - wie gehts dir? - Mir gehts gut : warum haben wir in der Gegenantwort in diesem Dialog dir verwendet?

[long whale]

I'd say because "werden" as a full verb doesn't just mean "to become", it also means "to turn; to turn into; to turn out": Alles wird gut = Everything will turn out well

[signal cipher]

Nasıl gidiyor? -> Sana nasıl gidiyor?
İyi gidiyor. -> Bana iyi gidiyor.

You should study German “case system”.

In Turkish pronouns are mostly omitted but in German you mostly don’t omit them.

[thick prism]

danke

[calm quiver]

How to join voice channels?

[stoic mauve]

@calm quiver, please read the Roles section in #getting-started for info on how to join VC and more.

[delicate tiger]

Die Verwandlung (Verwaltung?) des Büros ist schlecht gewesen.
Man sollte in einer Zukunftsbranche sein Geld doch nicht investieren.

[rain talon]

What is this referring to?

[delicate tiger]

something deleted

[rich prism]

what part of grammar are words like 'sogar'

[mighty pebble]

Adverbs

[rich prism]

wat type

[mighty pebble]

?

What do you mean

Adverbs are a type of words same as nouns, adjectives, nouns etc.

[plain umbra]

Modal.

[mighty pebble]

Oh that’s what he meant

[plain umbra]

I'm guessing, not sure.

[rich prism]

how do I know when to use words like darauf, daran
Like ich freue mich darauf.
What part of grammar is this

[plain umbra]

Da-compound.

https://resources.german.lsa.umich.edu/grammatik/da/

[rich prism]

thanks

[rain talon]

Does this sentence make sense ?

Die Sommerferien sind für mich bloß nicht wesentlich

[night dagger]

I would not understand what’s meant there, what’s the context?

[rain talon]

It's supposed to be « Summer holidays are simply not essential for me »

[night dagger]

Ah ok, yeah that makes sense

für jemanden wesentlich sein (in that context) is just not a construction I have in the front of my mind for some reason

[rain talon]

Oh ok, how would one phrase that?

[uncut cove]

In question 3, I translated- "London ist eine faszinierende Stadt, obwohl es sehr teuer ist." But the answer says it should be "sie" instead of "es", I looked up the gender of London and it Shows that it's neuter, so why should it be "sie"

[delicate tiger]

"die Stadt"

[uncut cove]

But isn't the Subject here London??

We are using the pronoun for London right??

[night dagger]

That way is fine but also , x ist/sind mir nicht wichtig. There are a bunch of ways to express that tho

[rich prism]

How could I use these in a sentence

[quasi needle]

youre using darüber hinaus in different situations, you can use it like this: " Ich habe gekocht, darüber hinaus habe ich auch die Tshirts gewaschen; word by word it means: I cooked and also washed the tshirts, another example could be : darüber hinaus gibt es noch mehr beispiele; what means: there are more examples - so you can use darüber hinaus for adding to more arguments, grammatically speaking you use it to reinforce your arguments

you can use zusätzlich for starting a sentence, like: "Zusätzlich habe ich Nudeln gekocht." (Additionally I cooked noodles.) ; a similar word with the same use would be: also

obgleich - although example: "Although I cook spaghetti or macarroni it doesn't matter", so u want to emphasize that it doesn't matter, 'cause the result doesn't make much difference

[rich prism]

thank you

What about ganz nebenbei

[quasi needle]

use ganz nebenbei... if you going to mention something example: Ganz nebenbei habe ich Nudeln gekocht (I also cooked noodles) - but i would say, that you could use btw instead of also, which means word by word übrigens, btw übrigens does have the same use as ganz nebenbei

and i would bet my honor as a german native speaker that übrigens is more common used than ganz nebenbei

[rich prism]

thanks

[quasi needle]

immer gerne 🙂

[rain talon]

I've never seen or heard these words before, are they common? Or pretty literary?

[rich prism]

I just found them in my b2 vorberietungsbuch
They listed then as options to use rather than 'und'

[quasi needle]

yeah, cause it sounds completely shit if you double words often

[quasi needle]

zusätzlich is common, the other words are not being used that often, esspecially by the younger people

[rain talon]

Alright

@quasi needle you're native? 😊

[quasi needle]

yeah

[plush pelican]

darüber hinaus isn't used often?

[plush pelican]

"obgleich" is like an alternative form of "obwohl"

[quasi needle]

in my opinion not that often, or iam hearing that not that often, in bussinesslanguage maybe more

[plush pelican]

What about in Schreiben?

[quasi needle]

yeah you got it, and youger people use it more

[plush pelican]

or like, when people talk about politics

[quasi needle]

in what context

ah

you mean obgleich

[plush pelican]

I meant all the ones you said were "not used that often"

I feel like I've seen "darüber hinaus" a fair amount, but I also read about politics and stuff

[quasi needle]

yeah maybe cause the younger people use a mix between german and english

[pure crescent]

"darüber hinaus" is very common in every semi-formal written context where constructing an argumentation is necessary — which includes journalistic articles, yes, but also, say, high school essays 😁

[plush pelican]

What's your opinion on the other stuff?

[quasi needle]

but most younger people use other words for an argumentation

[pure crescent]

obgleich is massively uncommon. I rarely use it in speech, always for humorous effect though because it is so outlandishly outdated.

and in written form, well, why use obgleich when you have obwohl? not really used nowadays.

[plush pelican]

I feel I'm getting 2 opposing views here on "obgleich"-- shukaku says younger people use it, you say it's completely outdated, which sounds contradictory

[quasi needle]

i guess zusätzlich is the word of the few which is the most common

[quasi needle]

no

i meant that esspecially younger people dont use these words that often, only zusätzlich

nova only disagreed by darüber hinaus

[plush pelican]

So here, when you said "it", you meant "obwohl"?

[pure crescent]

and to be fair I'm not privy to high schoolers' essays anymore so who knows whether they use darüber hinaus 😁

[rich prism]

They listed it as a connector. How would you use it in place of und

[plush pelican]

darüber hinaus = on top of that/ in addition to that / what's more

[quasi needle]

if you want to learn the language and the words which are common in the languagestyle of the younger people, i would say you should listen to music

[rich prism]

I don't like all these formal words honestly but I need them to pass my exam 😓

[quasi needle]

sry, it was a little bit much, cauz i had to chat with to people on time

[plush pelican]

Die Jugend heutzutage ist faul. Darüber hinaus ist sie respektlos.

🤣

[rich prism]

So you can't use it like und

Why is it ist sie

[pure crescent]

Äpfel sind gut für die Gesundheit. Darüber hinaus sind sie auch gut für die Umwelt, da man sie nicht umständlich verpacken muss.

Zwar hat das Rauchen viele kleine Nachteile, doch darüber hinaus steigert es vor allem das Krebsrisiko massiv.

[plush pelican]

"Jugend" is a weird uncountable noun in the singular

[pure crescent]

would be 2 sentences I can see myself using darüber hinaus

[plush pelican]

I think

[quasi needle]

if you want some musicians i could recommend you some

[rich prism]

thanks

[plush pelican]

You use it when you are arguing something, and the 2nd sentence adds to the reasons of the first.

X is true. Darüber hinaus, Y is true (which only further strengthens the argument)

[rich prism]

hmm

[plush pelican]

Apples are good for your health. On top of that, they're good for the environment.
(overall argument: apples should be eaten)

[pure crescent]

for me it also implies that the argument that it introduces weighs a bit more than the preceding argument. but that implication is not universal, I'd say.

[plush pelican]

Smoking has many small disadvantages, but what's more, it massively increases the risk of especially cancer.
(overall argument: you shouldn't smoke)

[pure crescent]

from the essay "Warum Äpfel toll sind", of course

[quasi needle]

if youre beginning a sentence with zwar you have to bring a counterargument, correct me if its false

[plush pelican]

A classic in the field 🤓

[pure crescent]

the doch darüber hinaus takes that role here. imagine I spent the last paragraph talking about all the small disadvantages of smoking. then I start the new paragraph: even though all that is bad, the worst is, furthermore, that it causes cancer. it's not a counterargument, but it's a far stronger argument. the zwar/doch darüber hinaus serves the role to communicate that it's much stronger than the point mentioned before this. 🥰

[quasi needle]

ah, okay, how my grandpa always said : " Man lernt nie aus."

[plush pelican]

That's a common expression, 😄

We German learners use it a lot

[pure crescent]

Every evening I write down 3 new things I learned that day. Really humbling 😅

[plush pelican]

You ever have a day where you didn't learn 3 new things?

[pure crescent]

Never!!!! Usually I have to pick the three things among more. But I do have a broad definition of "learning".

[rich prism]

what about demgegenüber

Also how do you use davon halte ich nichts/viel

[plush pelican]

Not sure about that one, 😅 It sounds to me almost like a da- compound that started as a preposition and maybe got fossilized and turned into a word in its own right?

trotz X -> trotzdem
statt X -> stattdessen
X gegenüber -> demgegenüber

[rich prism]

I've seen too many da words today 😓
my head

[rich prism]

pls

@plush pelican

[plush pelican]

I don't think much of that/I think a lot of that

[rich prism]

in an arguementative text

[plush pelican]

it's just an expression of your opinion on something

[rich prism]

could you give an example

[pure crescent]

Soll man viel Rharbarber essen?

Rharbarber hat viele Vitamine, die gesund für den Menschen sind. Demgegenüber steht, dass er zu viel Oxalsäure enthält. Das kann schädlich sein.

Mein Bruder behauptet, Zecken seien süß. Demgegenüber ist anzumerken, dass sie keine gängigen Kriterien von 'Süßsein' erfüllen.

[plush pelican]

Was den Klimaschutz angeht, halte ich wenig davon. Die Erde wird ab und zu warm, mach dir keinen Kopf drüber!

🤣

[pure crescent]

(I was still in demgegenüber mode)

[rich prism]

Ohh, so it's like on the other side

[pure crescent]

Demgegenüber is a weird word. very formal. kinda legalese but not fully.

[plush pelican]

How was my example stuff with "etwas von etwas halten"?

[pure crescent]

would NEVER use it in speech and I speak reasonably "gehoben" in my daily life

[pure crescent]

perfect regarding the grammar and the use of von etwas halten, but 🔪 worthy content-wise 😛

[rich prism]

why are they using it in a b2 book, it seems like c1 kind of language

[plush pelican]

I mean, B2, C1, once you start getting up there, everything becomes free game

[rich prism]

Like how am I supposed to know to use these kinds of words/phrases

My English essays are also awful

And English is my native language🌚

[pure crescent]

I think these are probably more so you'll understand newspaper articles if you come across them

[rich prism]

And I think in english to write in german

[pure crescent]

that's where the average person comes into contact with these words most often unless they write essays for a living

[plush pelican]

I think the other way around is also useful advice: read newspaper articles to start getting a feel for this more advanced language

news articles are useful anyway, as they tell you about political events in Germany, and the kinds of stuff described there is exactly the kind of stuff they love to take as topics for the writing/speaking portion of tests

[rich prism]

Newspapers are boring🫠

[pure crescent]

passive vocab can be immensely powerful, I was on a B2 Level in French 10 years ago and never really used it since then, I couldn't make more than a handful of sentences, but when I see French text I am always blown away by how much I still understand

[plush pelican]

what are your interests?

[rich prism]

Games, reality TV, documentaries

Politics don't interest me whatsoever

[plush pelican]

There are some gaming news websites 🤔

Not sure if they use quite as advanced of speech, but

https://www.gamestar.de/artikel/pc-feuer-welches-bauteil-ist-schuldig,3414117.html

[plush pelican]

Germany has A LOT of documentaries

[rich prism]

I don't enjoy reading let mee not lie 🫢

Unless they are completely fictional

[plush pelican]

Well, you could try reading novels?

[rich prism]

yea I read them

But the language isn't like

fitting if that makes sense

[plush pelican]

What kinds of novels? Fitting for what?

[long whale]

Not really. The vocab may be irrelevant. The grammar, the syntax is not.

[plush pelican]

I mean, if you want the kind of language fitting for Sprechen/Schreiben modules....(whispers) newspaper articles

[rich prism]

nooooo😞

[plush pelican]

Or you could try and find subreddits/discords where people write long political essays in German, 🤣

[pure crescent]

Argus' speaking sounds like the Tagesschau lady, then? 😁

[plush pelican]

Slay

https://tenor.com/view/susanne-daubner-slay-tagesschau-jugendwort-gif-26746557

[plush pelican]

Mir wird oft gesagt, dass ich irgendwie zu steif schreibe. Aber auch auf Englisch versuche ich komplette Sätze zu schreiben, auch beim Texten

[serene mountain]

Why the ' ?

[delicate tiger]

missing/shortened "e"

[vernal ermine]

Do double connectors have 2 different subjects?

[plush pelican]

not necessarily

Ich habe nicht nur einen Laptop, sondern auch einen Computer

[gaunt heart]

Wait so is möchten literally just mögen but Konjunktiv II

Have i been lied to my whole german learning i learned möchten was a seperate verb

[plush pelican]

yes

[gaunt heart]

omg i feel betrayed

Also, according to google “trinken” is irregular. How is that so? It conjugates normally so i dont understand.

[jaunty flame]

Makes sense. 🤔 möchten is used as to express hypothetical situations. mögen is…one states they like XYZ, which has a direct tonality in it. And KII is used for hypothetical/imagined things and situations.

[gaunt heart]

oh i see. “i would like to”, which doesn’t necessarily mean you are currently liking it. but you would if it happened

[short isle]

Irregular can also mean the Präteritum and Partizip II stems change

Regular in the case of these two would have it trinkte and getrinkt or getrinken

[gaunt heart]

ohhh okay i thought it was only for präsens

like the regular/irregular

[vernal ermine]

So not possible bro?

[plush pelican]

It is possible

Entweder du bringst mir Pizza, oder ich kaufe sie selbst.

I thought you meant, "do double connectors always have 2 subjects", so I was saying, "they don't necessarily have 2 subjects"

Meaning: they can have 1 subject or 2, both are possible.

[vernal ermine]

Do you have any sentence in which we use two different 3 rd person subject?

[plush pelican]

Entweder er bringt ihr Pizza, oder sie kauft sie selbst.

[vernal ermine]

Bro does it applies to all double connectors?

[plush pelican]

List me off all the double connectors? 😄

I think so

[vernal ermine]

Je desto, sowohl als auch , nicht nur sondern auch , weder noch, entweder oder, anderseits einerseits,

[plush pelican]

Je mehr Zwiebeln ich esse, desto weniger mag meine Freundin meinen Atem.
The more onions I eat, the less my girlfriend likes my breathe.

Sowohl seine Frau als auch seine Tochter sind krank.
Both his wife and his daughter are sick.

Hmm, I think this doesn't count as 2 different subjects 🤔

both are coming together to match with "sind"

Nicht nur musst du mir Pizza bringen, sondern deine Schwester muss mir auch Eis bringen.

😄

Ich habe weder Pizza bekommen, noch hat sie mir Eis gebracht.

😄

Einerseits bin ich faul. Andererseits ist mein Chef ein Arschloch.

😄

[vernal ermine]

Yeah bro they have same verb

[plush pelican]

yeah, I'm not sure about that connector

But I made sentences for all the others

[vernal ermine]

Vielen Dank ❤❤ @plush pelican

[plush pelican]

FYI, if you can spend more time with the language--Reddit posts in German, podcasts in German, youtube in German--you will start developing a feel for the language separate from theoretical grammar knowledge. As you start getting into a more B1/B2 area, you should start trying to use the language for stuff, so that you will see a bunch of German sentences, which will then help you with all this without having to explicitly learn everything.

[vernal ermine]

Yes, bro I do it 👍

[median lotus]

when you know grammer and wortshatz and verb placements, why you still do make mistakes in speaking?

[signal cipher]

I have learned Bulgarian through grammar. I have learned definitive suffixes through charts. But now I can’t remember that charts but can choose the correct suffix automatically. When you use the language so much you are getting used to. Your brain starts the automatic mode.

[plush pelican]

You don't have time to consider things carefully while speaking, because it's in real time. You have all the challenges of writing, except you have to do it much faster and be more responsive to your speaking partner

German has adjective declensions for example, which makes things a lot more complicated

You can't just say "the red apple" like in English.

Depending on the case of the noun, that might be

Der rote Apfel ist groß.
Ich habe den roten Apfel.
Ich habe mit dem roten Apfel gespielt.
Ich habe den Kern des roten Apfels gegessen.

[signal cipher]

Your brain talks and your conscious just observe. When I talk I don’t plan, construct my sentences, I don’t choose words between words. Just my brains talks. Important part is making your brain more capable. Train it and it will work automatically.

[plush pelican]

Word order is also often different compared to English. German often will start with something other than the subject, and dependent clauses are very different.

My brother helped me today. I was thankful for that.
Mein Bruder hat mir heute geholfen. Dafür war ich dankbar.

I know, that my brother helped me today.
Ich weiß, dass mein Bruder mir heute geholfen hat.
Literally: I know, that my brother me today helped has.

[signal cipher]

I have started to learn German three months ago. Now I can understand most of the not so hard adult book. I could understand almost nothing at start but I kept reading by using dictionaries. I am getting used to. After some time I will be able to read without any help.

[plush pelican]

At the rate you're going, you'll pass me at some point 😄

I've been learning for nearly 4 years now

[signal cipher]

Thank you mister Miyagi

[plush pelican]

https://tenor.com/view/karate-kid-wax-rotate-car-training-gif-4993063

[heavy grove]

How does the verb "tätigen" work?

I know it is used to say "make" or "do".. But, since there also are "tun" and "machen" that technically have the same meaning, I got a little confused

[swift bough]

That is a really context specific word, but machen and tun have a much broader range of uses

[heavy grove]

Oh alright. Thank you

"Anrufe tätigen" was the context in which I found the verb

[swift bough]

yeah, that just means to make a call

or in this case, to make calls

[fervent kernel]

Meistens kommt er hier auch ohne die den Tanz normalerweise begleitet Musik aus.
Is this grammatically correct?

[plush pelican]

You're trying to do a Partizipialsatz with "die Musik"?

Start with the Relativsatz equivalent you want to write. Write that one out

Die Musik, die...

[fervent kernel]

I wanted to form a sentence with partizipialattribut out of this Nebensatz
Meistens kommt er hier auch ohne die Musik aus, die den Tanz normalerweise begleitet

[plush pelican]

okay

well, the first issue is: you didn't add the declension to Partizip 2, which is still acting as an adjective

second: I think you need a Partizip 1 here?

[signal cipher]

A test said I am C1. I have got 84/100. Online test. 100 questions. No speaking, no writing test. Only test and text questions.

[plush pelican]

I have to think about this

[plush pelican]

Free online tests are generally never accurate, my dude

regardless of what they claim to measure

[signal cipher]

There were so many words which I don’t know. I found some answers with logic. I didn’t know directly.

[whole portal]

What would "Meistens kommt er hier auch ohne die den Tanz normalerweise begleitende Musik aus." be

[plush pelican]

the answer, 😅

I was about to say, I was thinking along those lines

[fervent kernel]

Why begleitende?

[plush pelican]

Partizip 1, first off, begleitend

[signal cipher]

What is attribute?

[whole portal]

Argus said something about Partizip and I put a Partizip Ü

[plush pelican]

Actually, @signal cipher linked a page earlier that explains this

https://www.deutschplus.net/en/pages/Nebensatz_mit_finiter_infiniter_Verbform/

the one about Partizipialsätze

[signal cipher]

My favorite topic

[plush pelican]

Look at the chart

If the verb voice is active (die Musik begleitet den Tanz), and the time is simultaneous (in the present, begleitet), and the verb is transitive (can accept an object like "den Tanz"), you're going for Partizip 1

There's another chart further down on the page for intransitive verbs (verbs that cannot accept an accusative object)

[fervent kernel]

So begleitet in the main sentence is Präsens ...

[plush pelican]

in the Relativsatz

Meistens kommt er hier auch ohne die Musik aus, die den Tanz normalerweise begleitet.

"begleitet" is in the Relativsatz here, a type of dependent clause, a Nebensatz.

It's not in the main clause, the Hauptsatz, which has the verb "auskommen"

Now, to be fair, that page is kind of hard to understand. I believe I covered this kind of stuff a little bit in Nicos Weg B1 course at some point

I wonder if I can find that again, because I think that was a lot easier to understand

[fervent kernel]

Yeah

[plush pelican]

Ah, here is the Nicos Weg on Partizip 1: https://learngerman.dw.com/de/benimmregeln/l-38582805

[signal cipher]

What is attribute

[fervent kernel]

So
Because it isn't "abgeschlossen" we use partizip1

[signal cipher]

.

[plush pelican]

adjectives can be used "predicatively": Die Musik ist laut.

or "attributively": Die laute Musik

"attributive" means "attached to and before the noun"

[signal cipher]

Haaa I remembered

[plush pelican]

"attributively" is the only time adjectives get declined

[fervent kernel]

Does this make sense?

[plush pelican]

Because it's happening at the same time as the main clause

I think you could have a main clause and a Relativsatz both in the past, but as long as they are in the same relative time, it would still be Partizip 1

[fervent kernel]

Got it

[plush pelican]

Der Mann, der schnell gelaufen ist, hat mich beleidigt.
The man who ran fast insulted me.

Der schnell laufende Mann hat mich beleidigt.
The quickly running man insulted me.

I think 🤔

both the Relativsatz and the Hauptsatz there are Perfekt, so in the past. Both his fast running and his insulting me happened "at the same time"

[fervent kernel]

Schnell laufende ist aber nicht abgeschlossen...

[plush pelican]

At the time, it wasn't abgeschlossen

Yoshi will tell me if I'm wrong, 😄

[whole portal]

Der schnell laufend gewesene Mann

[plush pelican]

Am I wrong?

[whole portal]

No it checks out I think

[whole portal]

I was just memeing

[plush pelican]

A dangerous habit in a server for impressionable young learners, 😛

[signal cipher]

I didn’t understand intransitive Partizip 2 Partizipalsatzs

[plush pelican]

you're really hyperfixated on this, 😄

[whole portal]

Partizip like that is a relatively rare construct tbh so I'm not 100 % sure since "Der Mann, der schnell läuft, ..." could technically equate to "Der schnell laufende Mann" as well, in the real world I think people will just use a Relativsatz like 99 % of the time

[plush pelican]

Yeah, you mostly only see Partizipialsätze like this in texts, especially somewhat formal texts

[signal cipher]

Mysteries are most fun part when you learn for fun.

[plush pelican]

Did you have a question in particular?

Maybe we can figure out the answer together

[signal cipher]

If transitive turns out passive Nebensatz, why intransitive not?
Why we can use the ones with sein but not the ones with haben? For Partizip 2 intransitive
How can I be rich quickly?

[plush pelican]

Well, the answer to #3 is: the Lottery 🤑

[plush pelican]

Thinking about passive Nebensatz for a second

How do you get a passive sentence?

You take an active sentence with a transitive verb

(transitive means "the verb has an accusative object")

You take that accusative object, and you turn it into a nominative subject

and then you have a passive sentence

If you don't have an accusative object to begin with (intransitive means there is no accusative object) that makes it difficult to make a passive sentence

although not impossible

[signal cipher]

The transitive chart in this link:

https://www.deutschplus.net/en/pages/Nebensatz_mit_finiter_infiniter_Verbform

It says Partizip 2 Partizipalsatz are written as passive Nebensatz

[plush pelican]

for transitive verbs, yes

[signal cipher]

Then why not for intransitive? Is it because we can’t write real passive with these verbs?

[plush pelican]

I'm not entirely sure

I do know that it is sometimes possible to write passive even with an intransitive verb

[signal cipher]

With es

Dummy subject

[plush pelican]

Traditionally, "transitive" is apparently specific defined as "accepts an accusative object"

This means that "helfen" technically is intransitive, because it only accepts a dative object

But you can write "Dem Mann wird geholfen"

So you can take an intransitive verb and make a passive sentence with it, at least some of the time

[whole portal]

Transitive means that when a is in relation to b and b to c then a and c are related too smh

[plush pelican]

Math jokes? 😛

[whole portal]

Yes

[signal cipher]

Soap opera

[whole portal]

Mathematical relations 😭

If a > b and b > c then a > c

[signal cipher]

I don’t speak pisagor

[whole portal]

What

What is pisagor

Lol you call Pythagoras Pisagor in Truthahn?

[plush pelican]

I found this answer: https://german.stackexchange.com/questions/9666/partizip-ii-von-intransitiven-verben

They just say that:

1. Partizip 2 acts as an adjective.
2. That means you can only do that if the verb can either be used with "sein" or "werden"
3. intransitive verbs with "haben" as an auxiliary verb can't do that, so
4. They can't form Partizip 2

But they don't justify why #2 is true, which is the key point of the whole argument