general-2

[slate yoke]

that is true

[ocean knoll]

there's a tendency to make stuff up at the moment

[slate yoke]

but not my point, i was more saying that sometimes people dont care if you want a conversation

[ocean knoll]

ai makes stuff up and act like it's right

they don't have it under control

[hot cloak]

yes but my point is that it's not very respectful to just feed them articles in this case

[slate yoke]

doesnt ai make it up based on something though like a random fake article or someones chat posted on a social media

[slate yoke]

thats true

[errant nacelle]

Da scheiden sich die Geister.
I would much rather read a well thought-out article or a book rather than listen to a superficial explanation

[slate yoke]

thats um huh

[hot cloak]

But would you from some stranger you have barely talked to, who is just trying to convince you of their personal opinion?

[errant nacelle]

I would and I have

if it's a topic I don't know about

[deft wedge]

This is not a personal opinion so much as the consensus of language learning communities.

[hot cloak]

Let me tell you AI is a topic I know about

[errant nacelle]

Cool

[slate yoke]

i like being open minded to things even if i have my own opnion of it doesnt mean i cant be interested in others opinion

[frozen wadi]

real . that's what an argument is actually

a discussion*

[slate yoke]

ai is a very intersting topic in tin gen and for it means for the future or what it could mean

argument is just such a harsh word

gives people the wrong idea

i understand why people use it

[frozen wadi]

right now phone producers are rushing to get their own name for their chat gpt knockoff

[slate yoke]

but it makes it sound more like two people just wanting to be right instead of being open to eachothers views

[frozen wadi]

ie apple

[slate yoke]

haha that makes sense

XD

[frozen wadi]

they put a sticker on chat gpt and say it's their exclusive ai

personally i wouldnt want an ai in my phone that monitors everything i do

[ocean knoll]

same

[frozen wadi]

we already killed the concept of privacy as our phones track where we go and our audio

[hot cloak]

a consensus based on what?

[slate yoke]

why wouldnt they, people have missed so many opportunities because of fear of loosing something like money or respect or something so it makes sense people are starting to ignore that and just jump into things and take knockoffs of things and call it theres

[slate yoke]

that prob why people are getting burners or blackberries

[deft wedge]

The experiences of dozens of language learners.

[slate yoke]

or stopped taking their phone everywhere

[frozen wadi]

i would gladly get a dumb phone too

revert to a nokia 3310 and just use my laptop when i need internert

[slate yoke]

yh i dont mind having both

one as a work phone and one as my personal

the dumb one would be my personal

[ocean knoll]

oh your laptop isn't tracking you?

[frozen wadi]

i dont carry my laptop with me

it stays home

[slate yoke]

ive noticed that pc's and laptops have a harder time but maybe thats just where i live

[hot cloak]

honestly I wasn't talking about language learning specifically, but what makes it so much worse for it than it does for other things? And survivors bias: Why would someone come to this server if he thought it was good enough?

[slate yoke]

yh true people would only take it if they needed to work on it right

[slate yoke]

if he thought the server was good enough or the ai?

[frozen wadi]

i personally take uni notes on paper

my laptop is to read slides and for the baddies

[slate yoke]

yh what about those like kindles but for note taking

they wouldnt have sim cards or be smart right?

[frozen wadi]

i like to feel the paper plus i'm a pen nerd

[slate yoke]

whats a pen nerd

[frozen wadi]

i collect and try various types of pens

especially ballpoint pens and rollerballs

[slate yoke]

i like paper im just really bad at taking notes and dont like wasting paper because of my mistakes

[deft wedge]

I thought that was the topic. If he thought one LLM was a good enough resource to learn an entire language on its own then he was a fool, nobody with any knowledge of language learning would have that misconception.

[slate yoke]

ahhh

i get it

[hot cloak]

Li made it the topic, not me

[frozen wadi]

yeah a lot of awesome pens are cheap

[slate yoke]

yh i like quils and pens but i just like stuff

[ocean knoll]

what's the best pen

[frozen wadi]

ie i hate most bic's because they smudge a lot

[ocean knoll]

in your opinion

[frozen wadi]

i have more than 1 depends if you want a ballpoint or a rollerball or a gel one

shoot

[ocean knoll]

ballpoint

[slate yoke]

whats the dif between ball and roller

[frozen wadi]

schneider rave xb

[frozen wadi]

the type of ink , rollerballs use a more fluid one so the ball "rolls" more

it's a water based ink unlike the normal ink ballpoints need to work

[ocean knoll]

hmm

[slate yoke]

so their both ball point pens technically?

just one had more of a water based? or are they both just rollers

[frozen wadi]

ballpoints use ink

rollerballs use a waterbased solution to write hence more fluid > called rollerballs

[ocean knoll]

what other types are there

I'm no pen expert

[frozen wadi]

gel pens

[slate yoke]

i used those as a kid

XD

[frozen wadi]

there are 3 types : gel, ballpoint and rollerballs

[hot cloak]

most of the questions that would be asked by the new german learners would be very easily be answered by AI

[ocean knoll]

are there no more?

[hot cloak]

and let's be real, those were always about 70% of the questions

[frozen wadi]

nope

you then have fountain pens

and calligraphy pens

[slate yoke]

the main thing i believe people should just normalize doing is checking the information dont ever just get your info from one place

[frozen wadi]

calligraphy pens include glass pens

[slate yoke]

feather pens

metal tip pens

[frozen wadi]

that process inmo should always happen when forming an opinion

[frozen wadi]

yeah

[slate yoke]

yh but people dont do it

[silk kindle]

you should make those close up ball point pen ink dripping on paper because they are pressing too hard type of videos

[frozen wadi]

most people are DUM

[hot cloak]

while I generally support checking facts, not everything can be checked

[slate yoke]

yh or they just want to be right because they are having hard time in life

[frozen wadi]

hm? Pens that leak/smudge?

[ocean knoll]

what type of pen is this

[slate yoke]

you wont know till you check

cant find it online go to places in person

[hot cloak]

"the flashbang"

[frozen wadi]

rollerballs

[slate yoke]

cant find it in libraries than try professors or students

[frozen wadi]

this type in particular are called micropens

cuz of the tip

[ocean knoll]

there's no ball

[frozen wadi]

the ink

they classify as rollerballs

[slate yoke]

theres always something somewhere and maybe with the little you do find you can start your own research and be the one to give this new information to the world

[ocean knoll]

oh okay

[silk kindle]

https://vt.tiktok.com/ZS2uBvhCb/

[ocean knoll]

the tip is like a piece of weird fabric that is wet with ink ig

[frozen wadi]

ahhh i gotchu , wish i had the equipment to film like that ahaha

[frozen wadi]

yeah it's an artifical tip like in highlighters

[ocean knoll]

yes that

[deft wedge]

Easily answered but not necessarily accurately. We're talking about an LLM here, it's just trained to produce human language — not to act as your personal language tutor. It's not a German expert, it doesn't speak the language in any human sense and it certainly can't explain grammar topics reliably. From what I've seen here even beginner grammar topics can be explained misleadingly with it.

[slate yoke]

Artline 200 Fineliner Pen Water-based Ink 0.4mm Tip 0.4mm Line Black Ref A2001

[ocean knoll]

wtf

yeah i know waht it is, just was wondering if there was a special name for the type

[frozen wadi]

the waterbased part makes it a rollerball . But yeah those pens are called fineliners/micropens

[deft wedge]

Building up a reliance on GPT is honestly a big setback to your learning from what I've seen, there are ways to use it effectively but getting it to explain stuff is just doomed to fail at this current stage of development.

[ocean knoll]

fineliner

[slate yoke]

wouldnt it technaclly take the information from tutoring wensites and dictoneries where the grammmar is explained?

[ocean knoll]

never thought I'd ever meet a pen nerd

[frozen wadi]

i dont like to write with them as they're meant for drawing so if you press the point sinks in

and adios

[ocean knoll]

yea

[slate yoke]

wait till you meet a button nerd

[frozen wadi]

gel pens are the closes thing to fineliners you'll get

[ocean knoll]

but i used it as a regular pen at school lmao

[hot cloak]

I don't want to actually you here, but it is in fact trained to be a personal assistant, for example, a personal tutor and while I haven't tried it, it should be very easily capable of solving most of the "What kind of case is this", "Is this sentence structure correct", given it's vast corpus of knowledge for questions as simple and formulaic as A1-B2

[ocean knoll]

like buttons (part of clothing)

[frozen wadi]

me too until i started pressing to make thicker lines lol

[deft wedge]

It definitely should do but it seems to be trying to explain it in its own way. And that way is not that of an expert who understands the topic, but of a machine trying to produce human-sounding language.

[slate yoke]

both

[ocean knoll]

oh lol

[frozen wadi]

u a button nerd?

[slate yoke]

no

i just like things

[deft wedge]

GPT is, at the end of the day, just there to make human-sounding language. That's its purpose.

[slate yoke]

im like a magpie

[ocean knoll]

that sounds interesting too

[slate yoke]

or a niffler

[ocean knoll]

idk these words

[frozen wadi]

a magpie is a bird

[slate yoke]

niffler ismade up

[ocean knoll]

are those Pokémon?

[slate yoke]

magpie is an animal

[frozen wadi]

https://tenor.com/view/dance-party-magpie-vulture-bird-dancing-gif-14647511

magpies are said to like shiny things

and steal them

intelligent birb

[silk kindle]

aaaaaaa

[frozen wadi]

that's a mole

[carmine wolf]

harry pawder

[slate yoke]

they also like nice things like red thread or fancy buttons

[frozen wadi]

fin fin fin 🚬

[hot cloak]

and it's damn good at it

[slate yoke]

they will take anything that looks nice or feels nice

[silk kindle]

hairy powder

[frozen wadi]

i am a very curious fella 2

[slate yoke]

lol

[frozen wadi]

not a magpie but i feel u

[carmine wolf]

I agree, it was a poor attempt of a southern accent

[silk kindle]

fnskflskkfkd

[slate yoke]

my cats name is potter XD

[slate yoke]

yh idk what other animal to show as an example

[frozen wadi]

hmmm well im 2 big to be a bird

mhmmmm

[slate yoke]

hahaha

to be fair not an ancient bird

they where bigger than us

[frozen wadi]

i could be an ancient bird indeed

[slate yoke]

exactly

[silk kindle]

y'all dodo birds

[slate yoke]

if i was a bird i would be the kind that collects things and weaved nests

[silk kindle]

did you know dodo birds are pigeons cousins

they are the biggest pigeons

[hot cloak]

I think that we're far past the point in AI where it's just about making human sounding language. Human sounding language has long been achieved, and now the focus is less to make it sound human but instead to make it useful

[frozen wadi]

dodo birds went extinct recently

timewise

[frozen wadi]

i'd be a pterodactyl

[silk kindle]

when did it go i forgor

[frozen wadi]

raaaaah

[slate yoke]

theres literally a game called is it human or something

[frozen wadi]

a lot later than dinos

[slate yoke]

thats a reptile

[frozen wadi]

awwww!

but it fly

[slate yoke]

it existed when americans did right?

[silk kindle]

omg thats the flying dino one

[frozen wadi]

i thonk so

[slate yoke]

so do bugs

and bats

[deft wedge]

Yes, too much so for people to realise when it's bullshitting them.

[frozen wadi]

yeah its dangerous cuz it sounds credible

i agree

[slate yoke]

thats why getting your info from more than one place is really important

[deft wedge]

Sure, and that's a far more challenging problem.

[hot cloak]

it's a challenging problem and one where to user plays a large role, not just the designer

[slate yoke]

its like if you realied on your parents to tell you every piece of info in the world

and never looked for outside information or to learn from scholars

[frozen wadi]

people should read books on critical thinking

underrated skill nowadays

[ocean knoll]

always has been

[tired token]

Hallo Leute

[frozen wadi]

haloski

[errant nacelle]

the internet has simply amplified the power that misinformation has

[ocean knoll]

I don't think people think less critically now compared to before tbh

[deft wedge]

If the designer wants to develop an 'intelligent' and helpful AI, it shouldn't rely on the user playing such a big role and doing so in the way they've foreseen. We already had AI that was capable of train-tracked conversations like that before the turn of the millenium.

[slate yoke]

theres books about that

[ocean knoll]

now it's more apparent

[slate yoke]

wowo

[frozen wadi]

the difference is in the availability of info ig

[frozen wadi]

lots

i can send you some titles i liked

[slate yoke]

yes pls

[hot cloak]

can you elaborate on what you mean by train tracked?

[slate yoke]

i have problems with a lot of things i like to think i think crytactly but i can never be sure

[frozen wadi]

yeah its as the saying goes " as long as you keep your mouth shut they wont tell if you're dumb or not" , too many outlets to speak nowadays

[frozen wadi]

okay i'll shoot a dm

[slate yoke]

obvi as i didnt think about books having that info even tho i know they would i just didnt think

XD

[hot cloak]

Is that really the case?

[slate yoke]

it goes both ways

[deft wedge]

Sure, I mean AIs that are capable of responding to X question with Y answer. So just a bunch of prepared answers like they had with ELIZA back in the 60's.

[slate yoke]

without internet whole countries would be misinformed because they have no other outside knowledge

[deft wedge]

It's not intelligence or genuine generation, it's just a façade.

[slate yoke]

besides people who come once in a while going huh heres my view of it

[deft wedge]

Of course you can argue it'd survive the Turing Test, but that doesn't really mean anything in my eyes.

[slate yoke]

turing test?

[ocean knoll]

internet has it's pros and cons, the pros outweigh the cons however

[hot cloak]

Perhaps the fact that we are talking about the power of misinformation instead of the power of information evidence of the positive impact of the Internet

[deft wedge]

Basically a test whether a human observer could distinguish between the responses of an AI or a human. If they can't then it was Turing's belief that it shouldn't matter whether the Ai is truly 'intelligent' or not, if I remember correctly.

[slate yoke]

yes if we only see one point of view it will always be over powered untill we bring another point

[deft wedge]

I've not studied AI in quite some time so do forgive my rustiness.

[hot cloak]

You're right in the sense that it would make a good language tutor if it was programmed nicely. One that would be better than what an LLM has to offer, at least for what it's programmed to. But this is the interesting and amazing part of LLMs, the fact that they are built to be as general purpose as possible

[slate yoke]

thats an interesting food for thought

[deft wedge]

LLMs are not by definition general-purpose, no?

It's simply in reference to how they are developed.

[slate yoke]

what is LLM short for

[deft wedge]

It's an interesting proposition, yeah. I feel that there is a big difference though, whether it matters per se or not.

[deft wedge]

Large Language Model.

[hot cloak]

They are not by definition general purpose but their very nature allows them to be, unlike simple deterministic programs

[deft wedge]

True.

But I cannot recommend ChatGPT with good conscience as a language learning tool unless they take measures to crack down on its hallucinative answers regarding grammar and flat-out lies.

[slate yoke]

i mean it similar to the subject of Schrödinger's cat

[frozen wadi]

can they control the correctedness of the answers though?

[hot cloak]

Interesting, what's the worst you've seen so far? One problem of it is that it seems to be pretty guillible towards the questioners bias sometimes

[deft wedge]

I thought that was about quantum theory. 😭

[frozen wadi]

if i get it correctly LLM just take pieces from sources and puzzle them together

[hot cloak]

Eventhough this has gotten a lot better over the past years

[ocean knoll]

ye, i think we need some real AIs

[slate yoke]

i actually learnt something about chat gbt's answer like do you guys know the strawbbery problem

[hot cloak]

It's part of their job, but full control would completely defeat its purpose so they can only improve the accuracy

[slate yoke]

it is i think, a famous thought experiment that demonstrates the idea in quantum physics that tiny particles can be in two states at once until they're observed.

but i take it to thought here as well

[deft wedge]

Probably
*"In German, it is possible to have a sentence with two dative objects.

Here's an example of a German sentence with two dative objects:
"Ich gebe dem Mann meiner Schwester das Buch."*

[frozen wadi]

mhm right if a human steps in to fact check every answer it wouldn't be AI anymore

[slate yoke]

as its also the study of does it matter if the cat is alive or not if you never open the box

or even if you do

[deft wedge]

There are far worse ones regarding grammatical explanations but I can't find the messages, might have been deleted for misinformation tbh.

This is just an example of how shit its German really is.

[hot cloak]

nicht schlecht. 😂

[frozen wadi]

just like the aphorism " does a tree falling make a sound if there's nobody to hear it?"

[hot cloak]

almost laughable in a way how helplessly it did it

[ocean knoll]

i meed there's still vibration

even if there's no one to sense those vibrations

[hot cloak]

it seems like in the area of german grammar they have a lot to catch up to

[frozen wadi]

is this mistaken info?

[ocean knoll]

depends on what making a sohnd means

[hot cloak]

yes.

[frozen wadi]

just read the english sentence below lol nvm

[slate yoke]

yes but also the fact that trees are connected to eachoter can play a part in that

[frozen wadi]

i give the man the child

[deft wedge]

Almost everything it says about German will be, you have to take a lot of care using it like that.

[slate yoke]

did you know trees can recognize their own kind

[deft wedge]

And this is why there's the FAQ, it explains all of this perfectly and succintly.

[frozen wadi]

mhm i can see that

[deft wedge]

To save us the hour or so taken to debate. 😭

[frozen wadi]

i never used chat gpt so i didnt know

[slate yoke]

and can make bonds like friendships with other trees they can pick favorites

[ocean knoll]

not even once?

[deft wedge]

I never used it either.

[hot cloak]

faq ai

[rocky goblet]

**AI-generated text**

This FAQ explains rules and advice for using text AI tools such as ChatGPT.

🔹 **Server rules regarding this topic:**

• Do not answer any questions by using AI-generated text.
• Do not ask for AI-generated text to be corrected.

🔹 **Problems with using AI for answers and corrections**

• No fact-checking: Tools like ChatGPT are very good at writing texts and often provide answers that sound good, but they are not capable of fact-checking their own answers.

• Fake information: It’s very common for these programs to make up fake or incomplete information, which is explained convincingly but is mostly wrong.

• Non-deterministic: The information is also partially randomly generated, meaning that if you ask the same question multiple times, you will usually end up with different answers.

• No language knowledge: It shouldn't be used for grammar or vocabulary questions, as it doesn't understand linguistics, nuance, or how a native speaker might actually use a given word or grammar point.

• Missing context: When correcting texts it needs to understand what the writer was trying to express. As such it may miss mistakes or correct things that don't need to be corrected.

🔹 **Reasons NOT to use generative AI for learning**

• It delays the development of important skills in language learning.
  Relying too much on AI generated texts or solutions may get in the way of learning the necessary skills of language acquisition, such as how to look up words or phrases in a dictionary, using critical thinking, or actually applying learned concepts.

• AI is not designed to guide learners.
  If you ask an AI a question, it will provide you with information, whereas if you ask a human, they will ideally ask you to show your understanding and offer advice on how to find the answer.

• AI output requires scrutiny
  AI output must be verified, but beginners to German or to language learning often lack the knowledge or experience to do so.

🔹 **Good uses of AI-generated text**

• Ask ChatGPT to come up with some story ideas that you can write about.

[ocean knoll]

I've haved some fun arguing with ai before

[slate yoke]

ive used chat gpt

[hot cloak]

it's still hugely biased and misleading and just coming off as traditionalist

[slate yoke]

it an be uncoherent

[deft wedge]

So, we are now in agreement? It's honestly been a fun conversation overall.

[frozen wadi]

nope

i'm a boomer

[deft wedge]

Misleading? How so?

You're more than welcome to suggest amendments to the FAQs if you have any worth bringing up.

They're all a community effort.

[ocean knoll]

we need a perfect ai

chinese room tier

[deft wedge]

We really don't. 😭

A perfect AI would be used for all the wrong reasons.

Assuming its feasibility.

[ocean knoll]

lol true

[deft wedge]

That'd honestly just be way too much power for our puny little human brains to use responsibly.

It's a shame though.

[ocean knoll]

we will adapt

[frozen wadi]

considering what people are doing with it rn yeah.

society would crumble lol

deepfakes of everything

people cooking fent for the meme

[ocean knoll]

lol

[slate yoke]

there are deep fakes of everything tho

i would argue that society is crumbeling

but we are so big like a huge spider web

[ocean knoll]

there's no stopping it, and I'm Suring coming generations would figure out solutions

[slate yoke]

that its just happening very slowley

[ocean knoll]

we just adapt to new conditions

[deft wedge]

Yeah.

Endless possibility for disinformation, stalking and manipulation.

[ocean knoll]

think about what people thought of the internet as it just became a thing

[frozen wadi]

imagine if stuff like the apple vision becomes the norm

[deft wedge]

AI can't easily be trained to have morals either as they're an inherently human construct.

[frozen wadi]

everyone walking with their lil screens attached to the face

[ocean knoll]

cyberpunk

[slate yoke]

to be fare theres also those creepy adult robots that allow you to put whoever you wants face on it

so i feel like we have fallen quiet low

[ocean knoll]

yea, I don't think majority of humanity would drop that low

[slate yoke]

i was intersted in the work of robots there are some cool ones but adult ones seem more popular on the internet atleast and it just creeped me out how much customazation you can do

[deft wedge]

Doesn't have to be the majority for it to create a massive problem.

Even if it was only a small minority, a few hundred million for instance, that'd be a huge issue.

[slate yoke]

theres already a huge group of people who have the mental state to do this

the question isnt if they would its when will they

[ocean knoll]

the amount of basement dwellers would indeed skyrocket

like never before

[frozen wadi]

not the 18+ droids

[slate yoke]

what do you mean?

[frozen wadi]

https://tenor.com/view/crying-emoji-meme-gif-24564691

[frozen wadi]

referring to this

[slate yoke]

yes those exactly

theres mutiple stores online

[frozen wadi]

i know in japan they have those

[slate yoke]

yh

so what do you mean not the 18+

[frozen wadi]

those would be robots rated 18+

[ocean knoll]

ah yes

of course

japan

[frozen wadi]

idk not a fan of the idea, why create bots for that

[slate yoke]

its not a good idea

thats for sure

[ocean knoll]

i mean it sells

that's all that matters

[deft wedge]

They're not a topic for this channel.

[calm cairn]

since when is general 2 even this active

[deft wedge]

No idea, probably not since that time the mods switched the names around.

[frozen wadi]

not willing to discuss it, convo finished

[calm cairn]

what…

[deft wedge]

I wasn't hallucinating they actually did at one point.

[slate yoke]

yes thats why im not going into detail of what they are because it doesnt matter what speicific kind of droid since it can technally applly to all kinds

[ocean knoll]

kork made it active

by arguing with leer

[calm cairn]

dayum ok

[deft wedge]

(actually now I'm trying to remember if they swapped the names or just the positions)

[calm cairn]

🤔

[deft wedge]

I know it confused the hell out of people though seeing as #general-2 became really active.

[calm cairn]

i see, I dont recall such an event. must have been long ago

[deft wedge]

It was back in September last year I think.

[calm cairn]

right when I disappeared again

[deft wedge]

No disappearing this time.

[calm cairn]

yeah, this time I made cool friends that I really love

yall stuck with me now

[slate yoke]

thats awesome

[calm cairn]

it is! I’m happy about it u.u

[deft wedge]

Damn, I didn't know you'd made another friend group as well as us.

[calm cairn]

our friend group means nothing to me 🙄🙄🙄🙄 duh

[slate yoke]

its really important to have friends people dont realise that untill they dont have anyone

[deft wedge]

Fr. 😔

[deft wedge]

Funnily enough I only realised that when I made good friends, before that I never thought it was important since I didn't know anything could be different.

[calm cairn]

yeah thats true I guess, once you have friends and lose them u realise how empty it feels without them

[calm cairn]

exactly, you have to experience it once to know

[deft wedge]

Yeah.

So many friends I miss here.

[calm cairn]

thats why I totally never call with yall even while cooking duh 🙄🙄🙄

[calm cairn]

understandable, unfortunately its a part of life

i also miss so many people, but hey I’m glad for newer opportunities to meet more interesting people

[deft wedge]

We're the perfect band of jesters to entertain while cooking. 😌

[frozen wadi]

just dont burn yourself

[deft wedge]

Yeah, I guess it's just saudade.

[calm cairn]

best background sound tbh, german politics in video games as im frying potatoes

[deft wedge]

Same. I think looking forward and keeping going even when they pass on is the only way of honouring their memory.

[deft wedge]

No promises.

[frozen wadi]

i have some prep in case , wink

[calm cairn]

true, and those who actually really cared about you, will keep in touch here and there. just recently I got back in contact with a good friend I made online in 2013. weeks were friends for years. now hes a doctor and we called for hours. its just fun to catch up sometimes after a while

[deft wedge]

Yes, our batshit craziness is sure to offer a relaxing soundscape for your cooking extravaganza. 😌

[deft wedge]

[calm cairn]

so so true

lovely written in comparison to the conversations in VC lmao

[deft wedge]

Yeah. That's really nice tbh, good to know they're still going strong. Definitely.

[deft wedge]

Most of our conversations in VC are too unhinged to even be posted here.

[calm cairn]

we are not getting banned tonight

[deft wedge]

Is that a challenge?

I know the way.

[frozen wadi]

we pray

[calm cairn]

u mentioned the simplest way earlier

but I rather not thank u popi

[calm cairn]

amen

[deft wedge]

I prefer to go for some style I'd see how many you can fit in one message.

[silk kindle]

you guys are wholesome

[calm cairn]

dont challenge me, you know I’m tempted rn

[frozen wadi]

only at night

[calm cairn]

the devil on my left shoulder killed the angel on the right

[frozen wadi]

when it comes to me

[calm cairn]

no u

[deft wedge]

It's all just a façade we do here, we actually rip each other to pieces usually. 😌

[deft wedge]

I really am too. 😭

[calm cairn]

so true🥺👉👈

[deft wedge]

I've almost done it in past when mods were joking about it just to spite Li but I don't want to lose my friends here for a dumb joke.

[calm cairn]

but we say jk after so it doesnt count

[silk kindle]

yeah under all the brainrot lies the true soul

[calm cairn]

understandable 😔 to both statements

still if u wanna pull smth like this make sure im watching your fall🥺

[frozen wadi]

yeah during the day i'm under the effect of fent to restrain my urge to attak silly boogers irl

[deft wedge]

There was an angel on your shoulder? I thought Rex and I already killed them on the first day of the job.

[deft wedge]

Exactly. 😌

[deft wedge]

Okay.

[calm cairn]

oh… then was that a cockroach this whole time?😔

damn it

[deft wedge]

Damn it Chris your apartment needs some work. 😔

It's got a Zeus in it so it's already better than 90% of them but still.

[calm cairn]

i just need to get rid of this ceiling

then my life would be better

[calm cairn]

yeah i get you😔 dw

zeus is asking when u guys are gonna play with him, he just barked 12 times again

[deft wedge]

😭

Did you say his name or is he just unhinged this evening?

[calm cairn]

he wants china 😔

[deft wedge]

He's got good taste.

[calm cairn]

i just looked at him

i cant even look at my own dog

[deft wedge]

"He is somewhere in China. You will never see him"

[calm cairn]

whats this life

[calm cairn]

HAHAHAHAHAHAH

this reminds me i needa watch the other interview with raxy

[deft wedge]

He just really loves attention.

[deft wedge]

He's in the VC rn.

[calm cairn]

sec i dry my hair and join yall

[deft wedge]

Alright.

[primal sleet]

mmngfh,,,

[frozen wadi]

fein

🔥

[slate yoke]

wow

now im hungry

XD

[forest apex]

Moinsen

😄

[warm crypt]

Bro never came back.

Alas

[calm cairn]

I did tho😔

[desert ether]

Hallo zusammen

Schön, dich kennenzulernen

Was ist Trinkgeld

[barren badge]

A tip

Like at a restaurant

[desert ether]

thank you.

[desert ether]

where are you from?

[barren badge]

Germany

[low drum]

Ich hatte schon lange keine gute Pizza mehr 🥺

[keen quarry]

Is that a wrap

[raven vigil]

4

[dense quartz]

@gleaming sundial i don't know why you made it into such a serious thing

their name is literally UWU girl

but no - people can identify and call themselves whatever

i don't know why you felt the need to make it seem like i believe the opposite

[gleaming sundial]

You questioned her the moment you went "why do you pretend to be a woman?". Who is you to determine whether she is one or not? That is often a sensitive topic. I felt the need to express just in case.

#rules 2 and 3 tell us not to act in that manner afaik

[dense quartz]

yes, they changed the name to 'UWU Girl' overnight then it seemed like they started pretending to be one. i thought it was a joke.

[gleaming sundial]

If you have not, ok, I must have overreacted.

[dense quartz]

but fine, you win. but in the future, please don't accuse me of such things

i'm not the most elegant with my german

i didn't mean it so harshly

[gleaming sundial]

I don't understand these kind of comments. If someone sees themselves as a woman and therefore chooses certain names and profile pictures to convey that, who is one to question another person's identity? Even if she were, say, a trans woman, is she not allowed to introduce herself as a woman? Maybe in certain super conservative places a trans woman wouldn't be welcome, but it's not the case with GLaD. One can read the rules again in #rules

This is what I have written, the intention was not to accuse but to call attention about rules because many times I have seen random people being stupid toward others here. The moderators have also always been prety strict about these topics, removing any troll asap. I will try to be more indirect the next time.

I see you didnt meant THAT way hehe

All good

[dense quartz]

i get it, but it was obvious i didn't mean it that way

you just made me seem transphobic for seemingly no reason

that's why i'm upset.

regardless, let's just move on

[frosty geyser]

Anyone here play The robloxia until dawn😈

[rugged kindle]

@gleaming halo

if we talk in english then we should use general or general-2

i've been learning for a year. define obstacle tho xd

[gleaming halo]

ok

[gleaming halo]

The #beginner-german rules is
Everyone is welcome to chat here but try to keep your German beginner-friendly. You may use English to explain questions related to language learning but please try to keep it to a minimum.

i can use little english. rather than the #german-only channel where i can't use except deutsch.

[rugged kindle]

you may use english to explain questions related to language learning

either way it's not the point

what did u mean by obstacles?

[gleaming halo]

do you know english very well?

obstacle means things that block your journey learning deutsch, that you faced?

[rugged kindle]

yes

[rugged kindle]

sure i just don't quite get what you mean by that

[gleaming halo]

Ok nevermind.

[rugged kindle]

ight

[primal sleet]

An obstacle for me was I crashed my bike into a wall when I started to learn German

[feral sinew]

good one lexie

[rugged kindle]

so true

[barren badge]

Did you die

[primal sleet]

yeh

[rugged kindle]

ghostie 🦈

[barren badge]

Sorry for ur loss

[primal sleet]

true!!!

[serene garden]

ywanna see pictures of what my bundesland looks like

i didnt get hit hard at all in comparison to others in my class

[sour idol]

@limpid crow I don’t hate you, I just don’t want to answer all your questions about myself. So I would appreciate if you just respect that I don’t want to write with you.

[limpid crow]

oh... ok

[limpid crow]

sure ma'am

uhmm .... uhhh ahhh im immature sorry

mb

can i speak english here?

[thorn lava]

yeahh

[barren badge]

Yes

[serene garden]

these are some pr representative images

[barren badge]

wow

[serene garden]

i have no way home either because all trains are cancelled

[silk kindle]

bro is doomed

sorry man

[serene garden]

im very lucky that my aunt lives here cuz if she didnt then i would have no place to go to

my parents are trapped in the now wasteland

[serene garden]

it's ok everything is gonna be ok

-# hopefully

[silk kindle]

😭

[barren badge]

Wh is it flooding

[serene garden]

very intense rainfall

[barren badge]

😔

[serene garden]

good news just arrived i can go home tomorrow by train idk how the train isnt cancelled

which means

uh

not a lot

but yk

were making progress

[barren badge]

Yea

[barren badge]

Can you even get from the train to your house through the flood

[serene garden]

idk what the roads look like

so idk

well i do

kinda

shouldnt be a huge problem

[silk kindle]

has this happened before

[serene garden]

what WILL be a problem is the river that formed next to my house

we got like

uh

[barren badge]

So your house still above the water

[serene garden]

normally there is a very small bach next to our house. if you wanna get down there you need traverse a small downhikl grass area

2 meters down

roughly

this is what it looks like now:(deleted it to avoid a dox)

[silk kindle]

wow

[serene garden]

it turned into a river and literally

is eating the walking path

[silk kindle]

literally

will this dry up tomorrow

[serene garden]

no

😭

[silk kindle]

earth has changed

[crude rune]

To be drunk and go for a ride with my car

One of my favorite weekend activities

ngl

[serene garden]

what

[low brook]

Anyone have any good german party songs

[elfin radish]

Hallo

[buoyant breach]

hallo

[spark elk]

Hallo guten Tag

[elfin radish]

Wie geht es dir?

[dusk garnet]

zur party

[normal belfry]

Hi

[serene garden]

an der copacabana by eav

great song, works in any occasion, always a banger, sick asf, awesome

literally every positive adjective that you can think of

[stiff socket]

eine frage spielt jemand von euch roblox

[radiant flare]

voi geil xD des Lied ist ja der Hammer ey xD

[serene garden]

JA ODER

[radiant flare]

Falco Lieder san fei aa geil 😄

Der Kommissar omg

[serene garden]

wenn dir an der copacapana gefällt dann magst du fata morgana warscheinlich auch

auch von eav

[radiant flare]

jap gefällt mir auch sakrisch 😄

[knotty iron]

Hallo

[hot cloak]

Hallo

[daring rover]

Hallo

[carmine wolf]

Me when hihi

[deft wedge]

😭

Depp-ression is a glorious combo ngl.

[low drum]

Its deppnession

[serene garden]

that's so fancy omg

[astral tide]

what is that

[serene garden]

what 😭

[astral tide]

pictures

[serene garden]

wdym what is that

[astral tide]

what is that

[serene garden]

a picture of the road?

[astral tide]

why is there flood

?

[deft wedge]

Are you not in Austria?

[low drum]

What flood, i dont know no flood

[astral tide]

i am in Wien

im not just sure what is that brown thing

i wasnt sure if its flood

https://tenor.com/view/nikilauda-drinking-champagne-1975-1976-gif-9533113

[dusk willow]

I sit and wait
Does an angel contemplate my fate?
And do they know the places where we go
When we're grey and old?
'Cause I have been told
That salvation lets their wings unfold
So when I'm lying in my bed
Thoughts running through my head
And I feel that love is dead
I'm loving angels instead
And through it all she offers me protection
A lot of love and affection, whether I'm right or wrong
And down the waterfall, wherever it may take me
I know that life won't break me
When I come to call, she won't forsake me
I'm loving angels instead

[hot cloak]

Fortnite battlepass

[dusk willow]

I just shit out my ass

[hot cloak]

pluhh

feeling a bit too extravaganza?

good grief

[hot cloak]

wo izt das verdammte brot!

Was fürn brot

[ocean knoll]

ich frage mich wie die Lage so ist

[low drum]

Woran hat es gelegen

[fallow stag]

Hallo, Leute

[steady moss]

Hallo, wie gehts

[fallow stag]

Sehr gut, und dir?

[weary pivot]

Me while waiting for my German visa fr

[dusk willow]

recht psi derzeit

[dusk willow]

what does extravaganza even mean

[serene garden]

bruh

do yk what my area is looking like

literally right next to you

[elfin tundra]

extravagant, kinda girly pop adjective vibes

[astral tide]

Wien?

[serene garden]

i aint doxxing myself

[astral tide]

ok bruh

[astral tide]

be safe comrade

[spark elk]

das ist nicht sehr gut

[bleak loom]

i read "Bruh" and "doxxing" and hoped this wasn't the german server but realised it was.

[sullen thistle]

in romania?

theres some bad floods over there, my family there told me all about it

[charred sigil]

Moin. Moin. That's a quite heavy flooding.

[ocean knoll]

stay safe

[ocean knoll]

[elfin tundra]

yeah there are and we also had a 5.4 magnitude earthquake

which is rather rare for us

[sullen thistle]

oh, serios??

[elfin tundra]

yeah like yesterday

[sullen thistle]

n-am stiu despre asta

[elfin tundra]

broooooo

esti din coreea????

[sullen thistle]

no from america but i have family from Romania**

[elfin tundra]

i always freak out when foreign ppl learn romanian n stuff jsjsjs

[sullen thistle]

im first gen american from romania

but parents never taught me so i learned myself

[elfin tundra]

yeah i can understand that

tbh i wouldn’t teach my kids romanian either

its so useless

[sullen thistle]

useless???

[elfin tundra]

da

[sullen thistle]

i mean kinda but its not THAT bad to learn

gossiping in public is easy with a second language

[elfin tundra]

have you gotten into irregularities plural forms and dative feminine

[elfin tundra]

not really

romanians r like everywhere

nowhere is safe in europe 😭😭😭

[sullen thistle]

idk why but i kinda already knew romanian grammar

[elfin tundra]

ai scapat de o migrena gen gravvv

[sullen thistle]

it feels almost as simple as english to me

[elfin tundra]

if you know swear words you’ll be fine

[rugged kindle]

#other-languages

[elfin tundra]

me when a single message

[sullen thistle]

i heard this phrase too much growing up

[elfin tundra]

hshshshsh

[rugged kindle]

3 messages

[elfin tundra]

aow

3

can you imagine that

[rugged kindle]

still not allowed :)

[sullen thistle]

can we speak 1500s german here

[sullen thistle]

since we're getting into specifics, does swiss-german count as another language?

[elfin tundra]

dann können wir in siebenbürgischen reden

[rugged kindle]

counts as #dialects

[sullen thistle]

do we even consider british english to be a dialect

[elfin tundra]

yeah

[sullen thistle]

its literally american with an "innit"

[rugged kindle]

u can if u want but it's not german and it falls under the term english

anyway

[primal sleet]

kitty

[rugged kindle]

lexiey

[primal sleet]

helviey

[rugged kindle]

so true

[left jolt]

te pot ajuta cu ceva

[sullen thistle]

ca ce?

traducere?

[left jolt]

thats the only sentence i know

[elfin tundra]

alles was man wissen sollte sind swear words

[serene garden]

thanks i will

[elfin tundra]

FIRE

[rugged kindle]

OH MY GOD HAHSGSHAHEJAJJQKA

[rugged kindle]

@calm cairn me when me the when

[calm cairn]

BAHHAHAHAHSHSHS

[rugged kindle]

best video ever

[calm cairn]

Fr

[fallow stag]

Hallo, Guten Tag

[crystal lion]

Hallo, Wie Gehts?

[hybrid heath]

Hallo

[spiral sentinel]

Hallo Leute

[hot cloak]

hallooo

[deft wedge]

Hallo

[rugged kindle]

hallo

[carmine wolf]

Hihi drigin jimpsciri @serene garden

🤏🏻

[serene garden]

:DDD

that's awesome

[serene garden]

SHUT

[serene garden]

omg you even included a ribbon

new server pfp

[carmine wolf]

Lol omg what

Was about to say hi

Guess not lol bye

Bro got yeeted

[serene garden]

look

wait i gotta zoom it in more

[carmine wolf]

I still see a crab

But why would u do that to urself lmao

[serene garden]

because it's cool wdym

[carmine wolf]

Drigin jimpscir hihi

[serene garden]

:))

[carmine wolf]

I can't draw a dragon

But I'm glad u like it somehow

[serene garden]

ofc i do

if it looks goofy then im taking it

people need to embrace goofiness more nowadays

[carmine wolf]

Preach

Now I gotta eat

[light yacht]

How can i join voices

[rocky goblet]

@light yacht, please read the Roles section in #getting-started for info on how to join VC and more.

[low drum]

eat so u get thicc

[carmine wolf]

im already thicc

😦

[carmine wolf]

do i make pasta

[indigo adder]

Yes.

[serene geode]

XD

[arctic jasper]

Hey can I ask for a translation of something I wrote in English

[livid lynx]

Maybe use a translator?

[median island]

haha

[arctic jasper]

Maybe

I’ll just run it through GT

🤷‍♂️

[livid lynx]

I recommend DeepL

[hot cloak]

Hallo, guten morgen

[latent patrol]

Hallo, doch ich muss "guten Abend" sagen.

[tardy pine]

Moin moin

Alle leute

Was ist ihre Lieblingshobbys?

[midnight kite]

kinder essen

[tardy pine]

Oh cool

Echte kinder oder kinder eier?

[low drum]

Echte Kinder Eier

[tardy pine]

O.O

Ich bin ein Mann mit Kinder Seel

Bitte friss nicht meine Eier

[ocean knoll]

was redest du da

[low drum]

Deutsch

[carmine wolf]

Bueno

[low drum]

Kinder

[warm hemlock]

halloo

[odd plover]

Hallo :)

[warm hemlock]

wie gehts ?

[keen loom]

Hallo

[odd plover]

Ich geht es gut, wie gehst du?

[warm hemlock]

du magst luftfart?

[keen loom]

Gut, und du?

[warm hemlock]

mir auch

[keen loom]

Ja

[warm hemlock]

gut

[warm hemlock]

toll

[keen loom]

Ich komme aus Dänemark

[warm hemlock]

es gibt ein airshow in mein stadt im october

[warm hemlock]

gut! ich komme aus marokko

[keen loom]

Toll

[warm hemlock]

ja!!

[keen loom]

rabat?

[warm hemlock]

marrakech

[frigid ember]

Hello, can anyone help me? I need to find a verb that go with "bei" with the translation (like mitgehen or something)

[keen loom]

Wunderbar

Mein lieblings flugzeug ist eine Boeing 737

[warm hemlock]

beigehen ?

[warm hemlock]

OHHH

studierst du pilot ?

[keen loom]

Nein, ich bin fünfzehn jahre alt.

[warm hemlock]

OH HAHAHAHA

[full crown]

is learning to be a pilot a "ausbildung" or "studium" ?

[indigo adder]

*luftfa__h__rt

[keen loom]

Ich weiß nicht

tschüss

[warm hemlock]

danke

[warm hemlock]

beide

[silver socket]

Ausbildung

[carmine wolf]

Wow u love buldak

[silver socket]

yes 🔥

love airplanes even more tho

[carmine wolf]

Damn is ur neuro spicy

Too

[silver socket]

dont think so :(

[carmine wolf]

Ok just checking

[river heart]

Hallo

Wie geht es allen?

[sturdy moon]

Hollo, ich bin neue hier 😁

Ich möchte sprachen deutsch lernen

[sturdy moon]

Mir geht es gut danke und dir ??

[river heart]

Gut!!

[sturdy moon]

Liebst du in Deutschland?

[arctic parrot]

👋

[primal sleet]

Lebst*

lieben ≠ leben !!!

[sturdy moon]

Ja ich meine leben nicht lieben

Ja ich meine leben nicht lieben

[rugged kindle]

und dir*

[fading pelican]

Ich bin guy 😊

[left jolt]

mdr

[low drum]

Basiert

[wild patio]

gm

[next gate]

Anyone in this one?

I beg someone to teach me German brainrot

[oblique sluice]

@barren badge

[next gate]

Yaaay

[oblique sluice]

bahnhof talahons rizzen sigmas keine betas erlauben wallahi

[versed grail]

Wie gehts euch leute

[oblique sluice]

abi was zum talahon laberst

[next gate]

I am beginner apologies, Duolingo don't get you too far after a year

Talahon?

[oblique sluice]

don’t use duolingo

[oblique sluice]

https://tenor.com/view/talahon-talahun-talahoon-talahons-spucken-gif-4000625073031323700

[next gate]

Got any suggestions? I've heard books and movies are a good method

[oblique sluice]

youtube discord books

[boreal mango]

perfekte beispiel

[oblique sluice]

perfektes

[boreal mango]

oder so

[next gate]

What's your go-to channel on YouTube?

[warm light]

hallo fruendes

[hot cloak]

Hallo!

[warm light]

Wie es dir

[hot cloak]

Es geht mir gut, danke

Und bei dir?

[warm light]

ich es nett danke

(did iget it right ? 😭 )

sorry i just started

[hot cloak]

No

Es geht mir nett, danke

If you want to use the word "nett"

[warm light]

Es geht mir nett danke mein mann

does that mean thankss my bro

[low drum]

Spucken die da auf den Boden?

In einem Gebäude?

Sehr asozial

[hot cloak]

Normalstes Verhalten in Frankfurt

[low drum]

Da laufen viele über rot

[hot cloak]

Was?

[oblique sluice]

rotgänger totgänger

[low drum]

In Frankfurt habe ich bereits viele Menschen gesehen, welche über eine rote Fußgängerampelschaltung gelaufen sind.

[hot cloak]

Ich möchte Frankfurt immer noch nicht besuchen, auch nicht als Tourist

[hot cloak]

Achsoo

[low drum]

Woher weißt du dann, wie die Menschen in Frankfurt sich verhalten

[hot cloak]

In allen Nachrichten und sozialen Medien! Nur negative Nachrichten

[low drum]

[hot cloak]

Aber vielleicht ist es falsch! Wir haben immer noch gute Leute

[primal sleet]

sagt man doch eh nicht

glaub ich

[oblique sluice]

ich mein man kanns sagen jedoch klingt es natürlich unüblich im deutschen und ist daher ja nicht empfehlenswert

[primal sleet]

jaja genau

[barren badge]

Talahon digga sigma beta yurr auf lock sag wallah +1000 aura pyrotechnik! Tweaken edgen goon looksmaxx mew

Fent

[thick shale]

Ich möchte Freunde

[sturdy moon]

Ich bin hier😁 welche niveu hast du ?

[latent lichen]

@alpine pebble saw your intro, what kinds of math are you into?

u in uni?

[sour idol]

@hot cloak I don’t accept friend requests. If you want to talk with me you can do it on the server.

[alpine pebble]

@latent lichen I am particularly interested in calculus. Basically integral and infinite series. And no, I am not yet in uni

[latent lichen]

Oh cool

Calculus is nice

[silver fox]

my futurama nerd read calculon

[hot cloak]

no bother i didn't know that

[sour idol]

Alright.

[limpid trail]

omg hi

[sour idol]

[limpid trail]

[sour idol]

[limpid trail]

[sour idol]

Vc?

[limpid trail]

wollte grade spazieren gehen

[sour idol]

[limpid trail]

tut mir leid maus

[sour idol]

[limpid trail]

wann anders

[sour idol]

Wann?

[limpid trail]

gute frage

wenn ich wiederkomm vlt oder so

[sour idol]

Wann ist das? Hab um drei Theater.

[limpid trail]

denke mal um 3

dann also jetzt

[sour idol]

[limpid trail]

study group 1 rot?

äh

gelb meinte ich

[sour idol]

Ne, da ist jemand.

[limpid trail]

🟡

ok nvm

warum immer randys

[sour idol]

[limpid trail]

oge jetzt, study group 1 🟡

[low brook]

Does anyone else learn colloquial german by listening to german music?

[sacred crypt]

Yep

[dim breach]

@akhusalam send ein paar songs, die dir gefällt

[keen loom]

Guten tag

[forest apex]

Guten Moin

[keen loom]

wie gehts?

[forest apex]

Gut und dir?

[keen loom]

danke gudt

[forest apex]

Studierst du Informatik?

[keen loom]

nein

ich komme aus Dänemark

Oh

[forest apex]

Direkt neben Deutschland

Nice

[keen loom]

Ja

[forest apex]

Gehst du oft dorthin?

[keen loom]

Nein

[forest apex]

Warst du schon mal dort?

[keen loom]

Was?

[forest apex]

Warst du schon mal in Deutschland?

[keen loom]

Ja

Hamburg

und frankfurt flughafen, und münchen flughafen

[forest apex]

Nur in den Flughäfen?

lol

[keen loom]

Nein

Hamburg

https://youtu.be/ARYjX7olNsw?si=Bhax4cUEv6VE_VmG

[hot cloak]

hi, what app/settings do you use for the umlaut letters and the fat S? I'm on linux. also would be great if it's an extended keyboard sort of thing, I'm practicing Polish vocab too

[keen loom]

IDK

[hot cloak]

https://tenor.com/view/walter-white-walter-crying-walter-dying-gif-20964719

[forest apex]

🍔

[keen loom]

das weiß ich nicht

[forest apex]

Ich war noch nie in Deutschland @keen loom

[keen loom]

Ehm, was?

I'm not at that level yet

[forest apex]

lI’ve never been to Germany

[keen loom]

Oh

[forest apex]

I really want to visit sometime

[keen loom]

i have ben to usa

[forest apex]

Have you seen the geckos

[keen loom]

Ich liebe flugzeuge

[keen loom]

I don't think so

[primal sleet]

keine sorge. irgendwann wirst du dein erwünschtes niveau erreichen dann wirst du alles sicherlich mühelos und spontan verstehen können

👍🏽👍🏽

(tihi sorry)

[keen loom]

Ok, i use gt to help

[primal sleet]

willst du denn irgendwann fließend werden?

oder ist das deutschlernen nur ein hobby für dich?

[keen loom]

Was?

[primal sleet]

do you want to become fluent someday, or is learning german just a hobby for you?

[keen loom]

oh yes, I am learning german in school and it's my favorite class so i decided to find a server like this

but it's a hobby

[primal sleet]

i seeee

[keen loom]

i wan't to move to germany when i get a pilots license

and live there

deutschland is toll

*ist

[primal sleet]

that’s dope

[keen loom]

lufthansa is meine liebling... ehm, airline

[primal sleet]

i wanna move there for uni, stay there and build my own life in germany

[keen loom]

*ist

[primal sleet]

lieblingsfluggesellschaft

[keen loom]

oh

Toll

[primal sleet]

teehee it’s not that bad

[keen loom]

ja

[primal sleet]

liebling + flug + gesellschaft

[keen loom]

wow

[primal sleet]

favorite flight company

[keen loom]

Ja