#nerf heavy mace and messer

1297 messages Ā· Page 2 of 2 (latest)

cosmic hill
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Ls was the weapon that could actually compete with messer

obtuse lintel
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it's just harder to do it with the gs because it's a harder weapon to use

cosmic hill
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And no ones won a tourney with dane so I think its mostly good as a second weapon

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Actually here's a question, why has no one mained dane axe?

obtuse lintel
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that's because the dane has a flawed matchup spread, not because it isn't better than the ls

cosmic hill
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If it has a flawed matchup spread then that makes it bad

obtuse lintel
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the ls just has "the messer matchup spread but worse"

cosmic hill
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That's like if I played Ryu in Street Fightert

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And half the cast was a bad matchup

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That's a bad character

obtuse lintel
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except with the dane axe you can cover your other half of the matchups by having 2hh or just have messer and have the option to switch into a longsword-speed weapon with maul stam pressure against weapons with a reasonable length

cosmic hill
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Maybe good as a "secondary" pick for other matchups

obtuse lintel
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it's a weapon length issue more than anything else

cosmic hill
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Here's what I think: Dane is a "secondary" weapon. You use it to cover the weaknesses of your primary

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So it has bad matchups and good matchups that Messer might not have or glaive or whatever

cosmic hill
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Yes messer + dane is a great build vs Longsword + sword

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But longsword can crush dane axe

obtuse lintel
cosmic hill
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Back then, it did less stam damage than LS

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I think...what are th slash and overhead default damage

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I think its barely higher than default ls damage

obtuse lintel
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was chop stam damage adjusted too, or were axe base damages changed? I forget the exact details since that was before I joined the game and I've mostly been working off of info from longer term players

cosmic hill
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The fact LS had a amazing high stam stab (that was one of the best stam attacks in the game at the time)

cosmic hill
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So, the damage was the same as it is today for dane, but it had no stamina bonus at all

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I could see dane beating LS back then I just never saw anyone with Dane really crushing it

obtuse lintel
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55/44/66 for slash/stab/overhead lights

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so the dane always had better base damage and was around the speed tier

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seems pretty equal in that case if we were talking sword stam dmg instead of chop

cosmic hill
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Ok so LS has 11 damage over the stab, the slash damage instead of 55, and the overhead was 16 less

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So the only thing dane had going for it was a better overhead

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Oh! And the bonus damage

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Which, longsword is knight attached so that counts

obtuse lintel
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yeah, equal-ish stam game and a multiplier

cosmic hill
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I just think having that stab gives the edge

obtuse lintel
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ls also lost a lot when they made counter windows proportional to windup

cosmic hill
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lol you're lucky you joined when they finally added stam bonuses

cosmic hill
obtuse lintel
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now you light drag on ls and react if someone is doing the stab to slash combo miss trick because torn banner is stupid and you can get combo speed by missing

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reminds me that they should nerf longsword again by systemic fixes to counter on miss rather than actually targeting longsword because its only problems are the stab anim which shouldn't exist and being a netcode-breaker speed tier with the poor server quality we have right now. I should make a thread on getting rid of combo on miss lol

cosmic hill
obtuse lintel
cosmic hill
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Ok so I'm unclear here. It isn't a combo if you don't land a hit

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Combos are repeated hits, it comes from boxing

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Like, the attack is faster than simply swinging the LS?

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Unless you mean stabbing the ground to cancel the hit then slashing

obtuse lintel
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stab the air and buffer a slash and it seems to come out too fast

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that might just be the way it handles recovery anim blending though

cosmic hill
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Well the animation itself has already come out so feinting is just fast

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You don't have to do the whole animation anymore

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Basically they don't count the second swing as a swing, you already swung

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So the animatiosn near instant

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I don't know why LS's is so fast, I know it has insane Riposte speed

obtuse lintel
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I'm talking outside the feint window

cosmic hill
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oh gotcha

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So is it literally coming out faster than normal?

obtuse lintel
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it's a tool durag gets me with sometimes when I don't remember he can do it lol

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keeps me honest, but it's also a bit dumb that it exists

cosmic hill
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LS has all these unique little qualities like that, that annoy me

obtuse lintel
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seems like it is, as he'll be mostly through the stab animation and still beat what I'm doing

cosmic hill
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I can't say, that can vary wildly by scenario

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Like, if one weapon is way slower than your opponents they can get away with dumber feints

obtuse lintel
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it's definitely not a feint, if I walked into that stab it'd do damage

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I've also done the same to other players

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it's similar to how katar can miss to special

cosmic hill
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How is it not a feint if you cancel a stab into a slash

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Hmmm

obtuse lintel
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you're not cancelling

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you're just buffering slash in release

cosmic hill
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Wait, oh you mean recovery?

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AH. Ok now I understand

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Yeah it might be blending...

obtuse lintel
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ls is an MU weapon though, it's definitely not broadly good and it's niche even in LTS because you have other fast target switching options like gmace without the stam problems

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or just playing messer

cosmic hill
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I'd say it'd god tier if you want to survive

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Like, if your goal is "not dying"

obtuse lintel
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if your goal is not dying you go shield

cosmic hill
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It's incredibly effective on duke and whatever

obtuse lintel
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or gmace

cosmic hill
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Eh mace can't stab and takes too much radius

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You need something that has a good stab for close quarters shoulder to shoulder fighting

obtuse lintel
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gmace stab is amazing

ancient night
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I still think the Knight's the fatal flaw of the Longsword.

Vanguard: Huge stamina pool combined with lightning fast weapon, 80 damage sprint attack
Footman: 40 damage sprint attack, you still have bandage kits so you effectively have two primary weapons

cosmic hill
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It's ok in a TO match

obtuse lintel
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it's good in duels too

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it has 40 base damage which is enough on lights and its heavy does two-shot damage

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think it's 60 base on heavy

cosmic hill
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Its slow tho I think

obtuse lintel
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it's also fast

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riposte stab on gmace is a legitimate mixup option

cosmic hill
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What makes stabbing weapons really good in TO isn't the big field battles, it's when you're on a wall or in a tight environment

obtuse lintel
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alts faster as always

cosmic hill
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It matters less if you're using a one hander

obtuse lintel
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other than the part where you can arbitrarily swing through half of the walls in the game

cosmic hill
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You also don't want to hit your teammates

obtuse lintel
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because fuck you basically

cosmic hill
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I think that's one topic that's very little discussed, "Do you really want to wield a polehammer inside of Rudhelms walls?"

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You'll hit the ceiling

obtuse lintel
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I don't like playing around walls not because I can't play around walls, but because I'm near-guaranteed to die to a war axe slashing entirely inside of the wall

cosmic hill
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Unless you JUST look down

obtuse lintel
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what ceilings do you even hit in rudhelm's castle with polehammer if you're in the normal fighting areas

cosmic hill
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I play dagger/hatchet primarily so my opinions a bit different there

cosmic hill
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Or how you enter the objective, the little doorways?

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I've used glaive in there and it's kinda rough

obtuse lintel
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yeah it's really easy to push through those spots instead of getting stuck and it stops being a problem

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you can also manip a bit in the doorways to get your overheads not stuck

cosmic hill
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Or you can wield dagger and hatchet and close quarters are suddenly your home

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And you have an advantage vs anyone who has to do all these little tricks to avoid getting their weapon stuck

obtuse lintel
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I haven't had any weapons shorter than the greatsword give me any problems outside of the inside of galencourt's second ship hull(overheads) and the bottom floor of the rudhelm gatehouse

cosmic hill
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It's not a big deal, but I think its smart to wield your one hander instead

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Why carry two weapons if you're going to only use one no matter what?

obtuse lintel
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to the point where I'm still better just using my 2h in every situation

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because one weapon is better in every relevant situation

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that's honestly why I want stricter collisions

cosmic hill
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Wot I done with dagger/hatchet recently

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You do die more often a bit, but only because you go on insanely suicidal flanks that end in four people dead

obtuse lintel
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yeah there was one bridgetown game a while ago where I just kind of played the game without thinking and ended up 47 kills and 0 deaths with the dagger before the gate. It's not that it's a terrible weapon, but that it's too short to scale into higher skill lobbies. If you're going 1h you're going to go sword or mace or cav sword or rapier instead

cosmic hill
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I need to try it in Comp again

obtuse lintel
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if you hop into the MFL you're just going to be limited in how much you can help your team, although I think it'll be better now that they're moving to a 20v20 format

cosmic hill
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Most people aren't at my level of "constant practice" though

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Ambusher is the hardest class to master in the game, probably.

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Short weapons, shitty counter windows, you have to play differently

cosmic hill
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Oh probably a lot, you'd be surprised how sneaky I am.

obtuse lintel
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every other week there's a big "pug" set up in TG

cosmic hill
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quote unquote from a player, "Did you just come out of my shadow?"

obtuse lintel
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although this next set of MFLs will have consistent teams

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so you'd want to sign up in tg right now

cosmic hill
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kk

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I'll give it a go again lol the last time I played I was a real rough alcoholic

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I think I might be the best TO ambusher in the game

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Then again there's that chinese guy who has so much XP I think he has played ONLY ambusher

obtuse lintel
cosmic hill
obtuse lintel
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or doing the same but with vanguard greatsword and hitting 8 backs

cosmic hill
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Ok so with ambusher, if you ever want to learn it, it's one of the few classes in the game that needs to use its secondary weapon

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Oh except cudgel, cudgel sucks

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lol I said to the guy with 47 kills 0 deaths

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(Tbh that team had to have been bad if you just, didn't die)

obtuse lintel
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yeah, dagger/hatchet needs you to swap because you simply don't want to use the hatchet in some MUs

cosmic hill
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(or you hid behind backlines a lot)

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I like using hatchet vs knights because it kills faster and also to quad kill teams from behind

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I don't know if hatchet has a bad matchup

obtuse lintel
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seeing if I can find the scoreboard screenshot for that game. Hatchet has something like 134 damage to knight on heavy overhead

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the dagger stab range diff matters

cosmic hill
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One handed axe?

cosmic hill
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Oh nvm thought you meant backstabs

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WOOPS

cosmic hill
obtuse lintel
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found the game that started 47 and 0, there were a lot of new players on the other team, but the diff wasn't as big as I made it sound

image.png
cosmic hill
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NICE

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Yeah that looks like a scrubby lobby tho

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Other teams lvl 15's

obtuse lintel
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my team also level 15s lmao

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it was more me diffing the lobby than the lobby being hugely imbalanced

cosmic hill
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Mine was literally balanced but only because I was carrying lmao

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so, same

obtuse lintel
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as with all high kill games you only get to get that many kills because your team isn't getting them

cosmic hill
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That's true

obtuse lintel
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that's why both of my 100 kill games are losses

cosmic hill
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lmao

obtuse lintel
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poor qs

cosmic hill
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Well, also with that low of deaths

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Like, this is just my philosophy, but generally if you are dying little

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You are also helping others little because you are valuing your own preservation

obtuse lintel
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I was playing a lot more aggressive than that implies, just had good disengage play

cosmic hill
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and that will kill a team QUICK if you are the best guy

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Oh gotcha

obtuse lintel
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all of the deaths were starting at the gates

cosmic hill
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lmao

obtuse lintel
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in LTS I normally engage full center if you want my normal level of aggression and what I normally have to survive to disengage from

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same stuff in TO

cosmic hill
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In TO I've gotten accused of hacking because I countered my way out of four guys lmao

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usually die tho so I don't know why they got so mad

obtuse lintel
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for some reason hatchet seems to have pretty good active parry for how fast it is

cosmic hill
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Its technically a heavier weight class than dagger

obtuse lintel
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it's to the point where if I had to play a "pure" ambusher I'd still pick short sword, but hatchet comes close

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and probably beats on some teams

cosmic hill
obtuse lintel
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yeah short sword/hatchet is probably the peak ambusher loadout

cosmic hill
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Short sword + hatchet is my other build

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Yeah, you have a great dueling weapon, and a great ambush/rushdown weapon

obtuse lintel
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short sword is also the better disengage tool because it's falchion length

cosmic hill
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Daggers only my pick because I use it to VERY QUICKLY sprint through crowds and pick people off one at a time

obtuse lintel
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if dagger could heavy cleave it would help its disengage game a shitload

cosmic hill
obtuse lintel
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remember I made a thread suggesting that and people just shit on it because they do nothing but play against shitters šŸ˜‚

cosmic hill
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Cool to see more people playing ambusher lol

obtuse lintel
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or are shitters themselves

cosmic hill
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I got made fun of for using dagger until the counter nerfs

obtuse lintel
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I have every melee weapon in the game at or above level 20 outside of javelin, 1h axe, and knife

cosmic hill
obtuse lintel
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katar is my highest level ambusher weapon

cosmic hill
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Ugh I hate katar

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I know they're amazing in 1 v 1

obtuse lintel
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I got my 60 kill game for clan challenges on katar and I got my 40 kill game with fist and no offhand on poleman

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I only did the 40 kill game like that because 20 kills fist no offhand was literally every game, completely free

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I play the game broadly enough that most of the time I'm proven right by time on where I say a weapon fits

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there has been a slow pickup on the cav sword in LTS when I've been saying it's a menace since day 1 and just struggles in adoption because it has unique swing manip due to the way the weapon behaves

median lance
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nerf heavy mace and messer

ancient night
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I dunno how to feel about Messer nerfs tbh. It kinda feels like it's intended to not be as good as a Longsword or Greatsword, but still remains "good enough" when you remember that your slot 2 weapon's a 2h hammer (Blunt damage source), dane axe (80 damage throwing weapon), or glaive (Polearm)

cosmic hill
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Maybe before the stam buffs and counter changes, LS was top

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Messer is longer than GS, faster, hits about the same

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(the overhead is to clarify)

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Ok maybe way betters an exaggeration

ancient night
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Messer vs Greatsword, I feel like i can't get close enough to attack the greatsword user and he has the same stamina than me.
Messer vs Longsword is really only a fairer fight because Knights have low stamina. Fighting a Vanguard with a stolen longsword while you've got the messer is more likely going to be a death sentence

cosmic hill
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To be fair, I think the same guys won all three lol

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In America

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Also you're ignoring the stam damage messer has vs longsword

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I think it's an evenish matchup anyway like, they're very close in power weapons

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Yeah GS vs messer I don't know. That shouldn't be a bad fight. The only difference is GS has better footspeed

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Because you were probably fighting a devastator?

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I don't understand "not being able to get close enough" as long as you hold down forward movement it's nearly impossible for people to get away from you without dodging and your weapon is pretty long

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I play dagger and it's never been a problem

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(you do move a bit faster)

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GS is really damn strong

muted plaza
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messer and gs are really similar

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I dont think messer needs a nerf

obtuse lintel
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they should replace the stab anim with one which isn't terrible for both ls and messer and then look at the weapons again afterward

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spear levels of fucked up stab anim

cold oracle
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I guess I need to be taught what is fucked about stab on ls

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playing in first, the animations seem fine, both stabbin' and receiving

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it's fast, but counterable

obtuse lintel
# cold oracle I guess I need to be taught what is fucked about stab on ls

the main thing is the way the stab has little distinction between windup and release as well as how the stab has the 1h spear problem where it's already inside you when entering release. Combine that with Messer's already poor animation blending and the only reason it's not that bad for us is because we've spent an unreasonable amount of time playing against the messer

limpid frost
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gs has an equally fucked up stab anim tbh

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hits early on the overhead stab looking one and the morphs into/out of it are fucked up

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esp stab to overhead/slash

cosmic hill
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Maybe a worthwhile topic is "FIX TWO HANDED SWORD STABS"

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It's pretty much an entire category of weapon that's like this

dry ore
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change the name from Heavy to "not that heavy mace"

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shit is light speed fast

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aint heavy

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not a weapon that respect the name "heavy" is the HEAVY cavalry sword, that is heavy n slow

ancient night
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They could just call it "Large Mace"

ancient night
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I might consider stealing Heavy Maces as a Raider, while having a Slot 2 Messer

tacit ravine
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If heavy mace doesnt get nerfed ill be shock, produces more tears than even HLS

median lance
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Heavy stab drags are the best move in the game

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so when you take the best move and combine it with the best weapons for it like messer, longsword, heavymace it gets buggy

cosmic hill
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Quote unquote from Mattcap: "you can do guaranteed hits with longsword counter though if you time and position the counter perfectly"

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How is that fair?

median lance
cosmic hill
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And it sounds like you can do the same thing with sword and short sword

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So the entire sword category is just fucked stabs from the ground up

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Sounds like it works on other quick weapons but these weapons have such fucky animations and that ability, and actual stab damage

muted plaza
obtuse lintel
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since the windup is occurring during your counter window, meaning that when you finally register the counter as the enemy is at the end of their drag you enter instant release

muted plaza
dry ore
hidden vapor
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Copium

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Lockouts when you over drag and your character is ā€œlocked outā€ of any animation. Like you cant block or jab .

muted plaza
dry ore
tacit ravine
dry ore
dawn badge
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nerf heavy mace

steel juniper
cosmic hill
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it's a heavy mace that isn't even HEAVY

steel juniper
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Better drags!

cosmic hill
steel juniper
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And similar speed, less range

dawn badge
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yeah biggest issue with heavy mace imo is the accel speed

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it shouldnt have ridiculous accels and drags on top of high damage and stam game

cosmic hill
cosmic hill
cosmic hill
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One thing that really struck me playing MFL was watching a heavy mace drag for as long as is physically possible, yet somehow snap like a one hander on release all the way down

ancient night
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Heavy Mace's biggest downside is its attachment to the Knight class.

cosmic hill
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So, having a weapon to defeat the most common class isn't really a weakness

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Especially at a higher level when defense is so high that having extra hp vs a sword is a huge advantage

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Everyones playing knight because knight is overloaded with many of the best weapons in the game and the immense drip of plate armor in a medieval game

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And each subclass is well armed, unlike vanguard, footmen, and archer, you don't have ambusher, engineer, or javelin, which are all kind of utility classes (engineer being the most useful) clogging up the spot. Like there are legit reasons to not pick ambusher or javelin or even engineer, all the while knights are basically the same effective fighting class

median lance
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also knight has better defenses against stuff like longsword etc

ancient night
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Knights will often lose to Vanguards in a stamina damage race, while the intended playstyles for archers and Footmen are such where they shouldn't be in one in the first place

cosmic hill
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I don't see good players often losing to vanguards when they have heavy mace.

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Also that "40 stam difference" means you can take like, one extra heavy attack

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It's not massive so small differences like blunt stam bonuses matter

limpid frost
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buff gmace NOW

fresh forge
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Thatā€™s ridiculous

rich condor
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what is that site

cold oracle