nerf heavy mace and messer

[shy lily]

Longsword does seem to be miscalibrated in the dmg, speed, range balance. It’s super fast, which is accentuated by its range, and it’s dmg is quite strong especially on stabs which are also long and fast and particularly oppressive as they are good at getting around parry. If you look at the messer, people complain that the messer is too fast, however the longsword is closer to the speeds of the war hammer, axe, and falcion than it is to the messer. That’s kinda an issue.

It’s range and speed make it feel like it can steal initiative more than any other weapon

It doesn’t need a big nerf in my opinion, but I think it needs an adjustment. Probably longer windup times would be good on slash and stab.

[cold ruin]

I think its fine where its at, longsword is a weapon meant for higher skill curves due to its average damage

[fringe obsidian]

longsword is fine in TO and developers care only about TO.

[gentle barn]

Longsword has been broken since the game was lancuhed, I am going to be blunt about it. TB has not done ANYTHING.

You can't even moprh to secondary attack

It's the most noob friendly weapon and at the same time S+++ tier in the hands of some dork that only plays the longsword

If you play 3V3/ 1V1 arenas, most higher level players will use the longsword because of its incredible speed, damage and clunky animation wind up that looks like lazy work done by the developers and delayed to further rework

[opaque plank]

but messer is better

[dull lily]

LS and messer are both really strong weapons in any mode, especially duels, and you can't really say which is better as they're good in different ways so it depends on personal preference. One thing for certain however, is that atleast messer requires you to learn its animations and more advanced techniques such as morphs, stamina management, and more difficult drags to maximize its ability, but longsword has incredibly low skill floor and skill ceiling and requires very little game knowledge to use it effectively, it's one of the easiest if not the easiest weapon to use while still being a very powerful weapon.

I agree with sungod that it doesn't need a major nerf, just some adjustments. Longsword has a lot of strengths with no downsides.

it's fine in TO as a jack of all trades weapon, just a bit too strong for duels

[opaque plank]

didn’t they already nerf LS a while ago, it’s damage isn’t that crazy for what it is imo. Messer has weird stab animations that are fast and has great damage all around(just a better GS) all those things you mentioned can be applied to the LS, only thing it has going is its speed. This could also be said about the dane axe as it’s fast but has okay damage so it’s fine. We already have a messer we don’t need another one that has less damage if you wanted to nerf it’s speed lol. As you said it’s fine in TO, isn’t this game based around TO not duels?

[gleaming bobcat]

Heavy mace tho.

[muted plaza]

Its not broken and the majority of high lvl duelist use heavy mace or messer

[muted plaza]

Gs is probably the same gud as messer I think

Also gs vs ls is a gud matchup for the gs player provided hes playing vanguard gs

If u have problems with beating ls players its just a skill issue

It used to be meta like year ago but not anymore

Also u can make near instant accels with the slower weapons too

[opaque plank]

maybe, although i think messer has more potential but it all comes down to preference. all good points

[obtuse lintel]

the problem with LS isn't that LS is too good. It's that it's in a speed tier which takes excessive advantage of the fragile netcode and low quality servers. It's a worse generalist weapon than messer, gs, or heavy mace and isn't a powerful enough generalist to obsolete less flexible weapons like dane axe, baxe, etc.
The weakness of LS is that it's only good at everything. The strength of the messer is that it's great at everything.
I don't think its power budget is wrong, and if it's to be nerfed in any way it ought be buffed in another.

[muted plaza]

watch any tournament and count how many players use ls

will be lower than 10 maybe even 5

u can just riposte it most of the time

cause bad stamina drain

[ancient night]

It already has the downside of being tied to the Knight. If anything, I think it could benefit from being a Devastator weapon that's ranked above the Highland Sword

[opaque plank]

Then i would agree it would need a nerf if it was on devastator

[ancient night]

I mean, I think the biggest beef I have with the longsword is that it's tied to a class that can't utilize its strengths in a meaningful way. You're probably gonna get caught in a stamina damage race with a Raider using a Messer before you get guard crushed and he kills you with your own weapon

[opaque plank]

That’s part of the reason why it doesn’t need a nerf as it’s on knight

[simple stirrup]

It's super strong please nerf

[obtuse lintel]

yeah that's basically my point. Longsword is a good weapon, but other weapons are simply better. It's at a good place power budget-wise and if anything other weapons ought be more flawed. The "problems" with LS are problems with the netcode quality, not the LS.

[ancient night]

Would LS on Devastator really be that problematic? Devastators IIRC have the one strong weapon and basically no secondaries. If you switch to the oil pot, you're playing with the kitchen knife while getting into a good throwing position

[opaque plank]

They have a few strong weapons what do you mean only one? The kitchen knife isn’t very good but ideally you shouldn’t be getting disarmed with the extra stamina vanguard has. Maybe it wouldn’t be problematic but i just don’t think it fits that class

[ancient night]

I know that the Longsword can't be put on the Raider, since the Messer's downsides are balanced by the fact that your secondary weapon's a Dane Axe or Glaive. Longsword on Raider would just make the messer completely and utterly useless, since the LS and GS are straight upgrades to the Messer in different directions (Speed for LS, Reach for GS)

[limpid frost]

not really straight upgrades messer does everything well enough that it stands solidly on its own in almost every situation

[opaque plank]

your secondary on raider can be identical to you primary

[ancient night]

Yep, though there's no reason to carry two messers tbh.

[willow birch]

Yes nerf the longsword there’s no reason why it should be as good as the throwing axe

[opaque plank]

idk about you but i don’t want a dane or glaive if i get disarmed

[ancient night]

You'd switch to the Dane Axe or Glaive for different purposes.

Dane Axe for the 80 Chop throwing weapon
Glaive to overhead or stab into a 2v1 fight

[willow birch]

You don’t stab with the Dane axe?

[opaque plank]

Fair enough

[sinful plover]

Lmao you are just lying to yourself atp

Somebody get Stridah here

[gentle barn]

based

[mossy warren]

Yeah the speed and range of the LS seem really sus. It’s really weird to fight against

[gleaming bobcat]

Unless you're doing comp, you can just avoid the longsword duelists

[muted plaza]

Its not a very popular weapon for comp duels these days

[sinful plover]

Don’t tell stridah that

[onyx sky]

Naw make it STRONGER

[mystic sail]

Yeah, but it does low stamina damage, so it's fine. You just have to get good at reading it.

[turbid vector]

Make it better than the messer

[ancient night]

It already is? It's harder to notice that when it's attached to the Knight class

[muted plaza]

Ls is worse than messer

[ancient night]

Try saying that after you steal a longsword off a dead knight as a Vanguard

[ancient night]

Messer still feels like it's meant to be a "good enough" pick for a class that isn't really specialized in specific roles. Remember that the Raider can use a Dane Axe or Glaive as secondary weapons

If the Raider can get the Longsword, there'd be no reason to use the Messer

[opaque plank]

good thing LS isn’t on vanguard

[mystic sail]

@ancient night Long sword animations are much harder to read and messer has 0 downsides. The ls does low stamina damage bringing it below the messer.

[ancient night]

Messer is slower than the Longsword and shorter than the Greatsword. I've found myself getting overwhelmed by the GS' superior reach, and I'm p sure the main reason I can overcome the speed disadvantage against the Longsword is because I have more stamina

A Raider with the Messer would probably get overwhelmed by a Vanguard (any subclass) using a stolen Longsword

[muted plaza]

Gs vs ls you can riposte a lot ye

Especially riposte overhead accels

[obtuse lintel]

it's too bad that the messer has greatsword damage, 95% of greatsword length, an optimal speed tier where it's capable of being both fast and extremely slow based on manip, and the best sword animations(for the messer user) in the game

Messer has 0 bad matchups in the entire game. The worst matchup messer has is another messer
The only thing Messer is "worse than" is in the particular context of teamfighting where halberd has such extreme and ungodly strengths that it's a clear #1

[shy lily]

but 1hs op!

[obtuse lintel]

agreed, duels are the only relevant part of the game and we should make sure that we never change anything for the greater teamfighting context again. My ambusher suggestion is bad by default because it makes ambusher better in duels, QED.

[onyx sky]

YET 🙏

[soft canopy]

Yeeeeeeeees yeeeeeees

[mortal pond]

longsword is a shit weapon

its good at what it does

its fine

[dry ore]

its all that high level duelists play, heavy mace exist mate

[vital stratus]

Longsword doesnt need nerf, but a certain axe does

And messer? HOW MANY TIMES YOU GONNA NERF IT?!?@?@?@

[ancient night]

I'm still on the mindset that the Messer is in a pretty good position rn

Has both the downsides of the Longsword and Greatsword, but it's still "good enough" when you remember that your secondary weapons are a Glaive or Dane Axe

Or if you're particularly concerned about getting guard crushed as a Vanguard despite having the highest stamina pool in the game, a Messer as both your primary and secondary (though at that point, you're better off being a Greatsword Devastator)

[mystic sail]

As long as it's stamina drain Is the same and it doesn't get buffed then it's fine being fast.

[rain dock]

I just find it obnoxious how often I see it. I wish side picks to it got buffed so that there was some more variety in 64p. Often every 6th or so player is a longsword knight, especially if the server has a lot of higher level folks. Boring.

[tacit ravine]

I use longsword while I sip my tea with pinkie extended 🧐

[obtuse lintel]

if I'm to be totally honest the only weapon officer has in the primary slot that is probably worse than longsword is the war axe. It's just that the other weapons have a much higher skill floor to achieve reasonable effectiveness.

the war axe probably isn't even worse unless you're just talking duels. War axe fucks in teamfighting

[tacit ravine]

They literally have the greatsword, are you high ?

[obtuse lintel]

I said not a single weapon other than arguably the war axe that officer has is worse than longsword.

greatsword is one of the obviously better picks and is in contention for the best TO weapon in the game

[tacit ravine]

Oh, longsword still cool though. Its all about the situation

[vital stratus]

Buff longsword

[dry ore]

Longsword is fine, make the heavy mace actually heavy

that shii aint heavy for how fast it is

[mystic sail]

No its good where it's at fast, but low stamina damage stop trying to make it op.

[shy lily]

Can a more enlightened individual explain to me how this occurred\

[vital stratus]

Doesnt feel heavy at all hehe, swings are fast

[dry ore]

You got "chivtwo'ed"

simple really

[vital stratus]

Remember #parigi-fuckery channel? Now all servers are like that

[dry ore]

i hate taht this is true

[elder hearth]

What's chivtwo'ed?

[dry ore]

like getting fukt but by the chiv gameplay

getting chivtwo'ed

counter that dont counter block that dont block = getting chivtwo'ed

[elder hearth]

@dry ore Thanks

[obtuse lintel]

bro gambled combo slash and probably had his clientside fuck up, dropping ticks and letting him skip windup

[ancient night]

I still think the best way to buff it would be to make it a Devastator weapon

[dry ore]

Hmm

[ancient night]

actually, what if the longsword had a one-handed stance that is unlocked by picking up a shield or getting dismembered

[rocky widget]

when the sword in the sword game functions like a sword (it kills people)

[vital stratus]

One handed messer in chiv 1

[heavy oxide]

Dual wielding with 1H messer swords.

[vital stratus]

Kinda reminds me of the GOT scene. Tower of joy

[onyx sky]

Even better, dont nerf it and add it to vanguard

[dry ore]

vanguard alraed yhas the dane axe and warclub bruh

dont need any more busted weapons on vanny

[onyx sky]

MORE

FIne footman

[dry ore]

footman desperately needs the quarterstaff haha

[vital stratus]

and poleaxe

[obtuse lintel]

how about we give devastator the gmace and just watch the world burn

[ancient night]

In Chronic's defense, the Longsword is an absolute pain to use as the class who spawns with it

[ancient night]

Strong weapons
Medic class
Choose one

[obtuse lintel]

polemen pick both by having the two strongest teamfighting weapons in the game.

[toxic widget]

They should add the Danish axe to the Knight's third class.

[dry ore]

https://tenor.com/view/tracy-morgan-hell-no-nope-no-way-gif-14307619

[dry ore]

medic class?

medkit vs magic horn hmmmmmmmm

[ancient night]

Medkits are stackable and charge really fast. I get the impression that they wanted the Bandage Kit to function more like a primary weapon rather than as a special ability

[obtuse lintel]

how about halberd as a native ambusher weapon

[dry ore]

heck it

everyone gets everything

[shy lily]

tell me whyyyyyy

[vital stratus]

Sounds like mordhau

[dry ore]

yeah man what is balance anyway

you can get stuff off the floor

[ancient night]

I wanna be able to live long enough to do that as a footman

[zealous onyx]

I say nerf Dane axe loads

It’s so annoying there’s no skill in using it

You just spam slash

[dry ore]

dunno man a 71 stab vs a footman is tots fair

its an axe right? designed to stab

[zealous onyx]

I feel like it’s such an over used weapon all I see know is Dane axes

[muted plaza]

Dane axe isn't op

[zealous onyx]

It is it’s so quick and does so much damage

Defaults use it

[muted plaza]

Ask any comp player if it's op

It isn't

[obtuse lintel]

the only thing about dane axe that is actually op is the throw

[obtuse lintel]

imagine a weapon that throws for javelin damage, has interrupt, throws as fast as throwing knives, and switches you to messer faster than doing a normal weapon switch

isn't that truly a crazy thing?

[ancient night]

Honestly wonder if axes should do cut damage on Stab

[dry ore]

ye ye old .45

https://tenor.com/view/gun-shot-shoot-first-person-gif-25156726

modern compact dane axe

[pearl berry]

Ls is balanced

[obtuse lintel]

the only thing wrong with the ls that isn't just a netcode issue is the terrible stab animation that shouldn't exist in the game on messer or ls

the garbage stab anim that has the same problem the 1h spear stab has(the 1h spear should also just be gutted and not because it's actually op)

[onyx sky]

I really Never understood why the footman was considered the medic class when the banner and the trumpet can heal a lot more teammates at once. The footman just throws out these little med packs that he only one person. While the banner and the trumpet can fully heal an entire team in one shot

[obtuse lintel]

the only justification really is the ability to skip the pick-up animation while someone is downed on demand and for doing that to 3 players to basically be enough charge to let you do it to a fourth

[onyx sky]

Fair enough

[ancient night]

Bandage Kits are stackable and have much shorter cooldowns. I still can't help but think that they designed the Footman's special ability to be a primary weapon, rather than a special ability

[dry ore]

then sit there waiting for a new medkit

[ancient night]

Ideally, if you have used up all your Bandage Kits, you should already have found a primary weapon off a dead Knight or Vamguard

[dry ore]

At that point play knight or vanguard

[ancient night]

If you don't have any meter, you probably shouldn't be playing Footman

Also, a Poleman with a Greatsword and Warhammer is probably a better knight than playing Knight proper

[obtuse lintel]

knight is a "better class" than poleman. That's why it's so disgusting when a good player picks up halberd on knight, for example.

Warhammer is better on any class faster than knight because it's constrained by limited knight movement, but the longer weapons like gs and halberd have no such issue and are clearly better on knight.

[ancient night]

Warhammer is also stronger on non-Knight classes for the principle of being able to put a primary weapon on your Slot 2

[shy lily]

do you think GS should be removed from Knight?

[muted plaza]

gs is better on vanguard

[obtuse lintel]

GS never should've been added to Officer in particular. It would've been less harmful on Crusader because Messer is a right proper equal, and Crusader is saddled with oil pots to reduce its team utility, but Officer gets god tier secondaries, Greatsword, gmace, throwing knives, and horn.

in an academic sense, vanguard is better with GS, but we're also human beings and the Officer gets the entire kit in exchange for worse movement and less stam while being able to take more strays

[muted plaza]

for TO knight might be better

but for duels vanguard gs is better for sure

[obtuse lintel]

I don't think there will ever not be a spot for a vanguard player who is really really on point, but even in LTS you're going to want supermajority knights even if literally everyone was using gs

[obtuse lintel]

the thing with gs is that in duels the officer player shouldn't be only using gs. For gs struggle matchups you have the 1h mace anyway. gs+mace officer has a better matchup spread than the messer does I'm pretty sure

I'm still a vanguard greatsword enthusiast in spite of everything I'm saying, but it kind of is what it is

also vanguard baxe enthusiast

[muted plaza]

whats good weapon vs gs tho

[obtuse lintel]

mostly weapons fast enough to consistently force riposte and punish the fact that most of what the gs does is less obscured than with, for example, the messer. I'd say dane axe, for example.

dane axe matches or exceeds gs stam pressure even vanguard vs vanguard

[muted plaza]

dane axe nah

messer vs gs is kinda equal

depends on skill mostly

[obtuse lintel]

I still primarily care about teamfighting and I don't really think too much on what I suggest will do to duels unless I think it'd be something particularly extreme, and gs officer is more of a TO/LTS game health issue than it is relevant for duels

the fact that it's so arguable is enough to say it's fine in duel

[muted plaza]

knight gs is fine for duels for sure

just i think vanguard is better

for TO/LTS idk I dont play it much

apparently thowing weapons are op

in lts

[obtuse lintel]

for LTS messer knight isn't punished by having the "worst" special ability anyway so gs knight is also less of a problem there which is why you're more likely to see gs vanguards and messer or gmace knights

yeah that's why tertiaries ended up banned other than ambusher and there's consideration to banning primary throws and even throwing knives on ambusher

throws are just kind of strong in this game in teamfighting in general and it's a lot worse in LTS where everyone can at least survive in a duel and you can't just treat the players you're fighting as trivial

[muted plaza]

interesting

[obtuse lintel]

I mean consider this.
You can throw something greatsword overhead damage or higher which flinches the enemy player from range and switches you to an equal or better weapon and throws as fast as throwing knives and that's the dane axe.

For most classes it's not much different. You're usually throwing to secure a majority fight, meaning that it's good to swap to a 1h so you can begin specialing and simply nuking minority players.

Throwing is faster than or equal to weapon switch for most weapons or at least is so close to being weapon switch speed that the diff is a non-issue

the highland sword might not entirely be an exception because it both throws and switches excruciatingly slow

you can also simply cancel your throw

if you look at someone from mid-range and cancel throw over and over until they try to swap off of you and then actually throw what can that player even do?

you can even just cancel throw a few times, watch them switch, and then special instead of throwing if you're close enough for that

[ancient night]

Or better yet, not give Greatsword to any Knight subclass at all and buff the Knight's base stats to a degree that it doesn't need to be carried by the GS

[obtuse lintel]

it's not carried by the GS. The gmace is a similarly good weapon, albeit with more limitations in teamfighting, and the poleaxe is also a worse overall teamfighting weapon which offers a niche to the team that the gs is incapable of offering. If we exclude poleman I think it's a weapon teams would have multiple of in TO in an "optimal" environment instead of just being pure gs and messer

[dry ore]

well some "poeple" pushed way too hard and tb caved so they added it to knight

[dry ore]

"If you don't have any meter" what do yee mean by this?

gen confused

[ancient night]

The radial bar that fills up over time for your Slot 4 ability. For Footmen, their special ability is less a special ability and more of a primary weapon for them. There's very little to play the Footman if you don't have access to your Bandage Kit

Vanguards, Knights, and Archers can be much more useful even without their special ability

[dry ore]

ahhhh, haha that had me confused ngl

yeah footman is a lil sucky

[ancient night]

I feel like the best way to make Footman work is w/ 1h Spear/Mace Man-at-Arms. The shield alone will (sometimes) give you enough survivability to make it to your first healing patient, while also allowing you to survive your search for a better weapon.

[crimson island]

Training sword needs to be nerfed agreed

[dry ore]

what sword?

[crimson island]

Training sword. It's just my nickname for it. (You can just mindlessly swing it around without much of a penalty. And it being one of the first weapons you get)

[dry ore]

ahhhh ok

[mossy mantle]

theres no need for a nerf , youre complaining about a longsword being fast when you can swing a highlander sword around like its a baseball bat . the simple fact is you need to get gud

[dry ore]

yeah he just has a lil skill issue

[tidal osprey]

Devs can nerf your longsword. Dont try to destroy the game for everyone else. Its already nerfed. Stabs used to be so much better

[cosmic hill]

Ruin the game for the 60 duelists who use it vs the rest of the community

[tidal osprey]

There isnt one single weapon in the game that is too good. Everything can be countered with different playstyles. You want everyone to rund around with wet toiletpaper rolls not getting any damage in? This game will become a light sparring session simulator

[cosmic hill]

That's a very sunny and unrealistic view. There is not a single game, sport, or war, really any competition, that doesn't have a optimal way of doing things

Even something as simple as hammering, what's better, hammering with your hands or hammering with a hammer?

I've enjoyed competition in a few titles over the years and this would be the first game where every weapon/class is actually equal

I have to disagree and say messer, heavy mace, QS, and LS do not have weaknesses.

That is the primary problem.

In the other thread I mentioned that maybe giving every weapon the same control those weapons have (they are exceptionally priviliged in that area) would come a long way to balancing. Basically, bring back turn rates for EVERYONE

[ancient night]

I still think what it needs the most is the Devastator subclass

[cosmic hill]

Not a heavy category weapon, not happening.

[tidal osprey]

Im not against that. Buff and bring back turn rates for everyone sounds good to me

[cosmic hill]

Maybe I could throw it out there. A while ago, the turn rate nerf was added so basically (you might have been there so sorry if I'm repeating) overheads and stabs were actually avoidable

Along with preventing, real spinning

Maybe they went too hard

I think a lot of people miss some of the spins

[tidal osprey]

To be honest the game felt better and more balanced in beta for me. Everything felt smoother and more controllable

[cosmic hill]

Yeah that's what I heard, maybe reverting some of the changes now that the community is more...evolved basically would be good

Maybe the issues that were seen were just sour grapes or not understanding the game as it would later be understood

I mean a lot of the players who complained about (spins) don't even play anymore

[tidal osprey]

Yeah thats what usually happens. Like in For honor everyone cry about the new heroes they release being op and they end up being nerfed to the ground before people are even used to fight against them

[cosmic hill]

I respect chiv for maintaining a outlook similar to capcom

"Don't mess with it until you're sure"

Wish they'd buff glaive though lmao

[tidal osprey]

Word. Probably my least used weapon after the archer classes

[cosmic hill]

I've been maining it a while, I'm actually like, #5 on experience points globally, that's how little it is used

chivstats.xyz btw if you're curious where you are

[tidal osprey]

Nice. A little more damage on it would be great

[cosmic hill]

Yeah main issue I see is it's the only weapon that can't kill you in two hits reliably

[tidal osprey]

Ill check. Sometimes im on top of the leaderboards other times in trash

[cosmic hill]

Which, that goes into the damage discussion lol

[obtuse lintel]

glaive shouldn't be buffed because it's too long and has too fast of a speed tier to allow it to be changed

[cosmic hill]

Not until they nerf longsword it ain't

Length doesn't matter in chiv 2, you can facehug really easily

Ok it does matter but you can't force people to fight at range

[obtuse lintel]

you can though and that's an important part of teamfighting

glaive isn't a dueling weapon

[cosmic hill]

It isn't and that's why I go 40-1 with Poleaxe and 40-20 with glaive

And like, I'm literally the guy who would be able to pull off awesome teamfight shit. I'm the ONLY GUY USING IT

Glaive isn't even long enough to justify the damage nerf

Spear is as long and does more

And is as fast.

[obtuse lintel]

the glaive is longer than halberd and faster than spear and has a real slash

[cosmic hill]

The light stab on glaive is as slow (same windup) as the maul, do you want to be a bit more specific?

[obtuse lintel]

I hop on glaive sometimes in LTS because it's unrestricted on raider and has some of the best interrupts in the entire game. It's not a stats weapon so much as it's a "set up everyone else in the teamfight" weapon

[cosmic hill]

You mean the overhead right. Just the overhead.

[obtuse lintel]

the slash and the overhead are both faster. The stab has reasonable damage for its speed+range combo, but it's not the bread and butter of the weapon

[cosmic hill]

The slash is longsword speed

[obtuse lintel]

having access to anything longsword speed at that length is ludicrous

[cosmic hill]

The stab needs to be buffed, specifically.

It's so bad that experienced players will advise you just use overheads for the most part

It's just too easy to counter and react to

I'd give it something like the messer stab (which it actually deserves because it's a freaking polearm)

As far as speed

[tidal osprey]

Glaive def needs a buff. Stab is horrible for that kind of weapon

[obtuse lintel]

the stab having an odd speed tier is good in comp LTS at least because it changes your cadence entirely and makes it easier to mixup players in Xv1

[cosmic hill]

and, this is a major issue with glaive in teamfights, in teamfights you want to kill people as quickly as possible and any delay will get you killed

Glaive often ends up having 10-15 second fights

Unless you fight people already wounded

Oh, and it's so big, you actually shouldn't be too close to your allies

[obtuse lintel]

yeah why are you taking 10-15 second fights when you can hit a bunch of players and just keep target switching

[cosmic hill]

Because you won't be able to swing around

[cosmic hill]

More effectie doing that with poleaxe

Which is shorter.

One issue is poleaxe is a LOT easier to control and do you know how important that is when your weapons as thin as a one hander?

Glaive has these issues: Low damage, poor weapon control, low stam damage, and its size actually hinders you around allies

[obtuse lintel]

you're not though, at least not if you had teammates with an IQ over room temperature. Glaive does have stricter turncaps due to length versus the poleaxe at least which means you have to play range to maximize its handling

[cosmic hill]

If you have to rely on teammates for a weapon to be effective

Then it's not effective, your teammates are.

I can use poleaxe and duel AND teamfight

Ok just look at this

[obtuse lintel]

not really. Setting a significant number of players up to be hit and being able to interrupt with that high of frequency over that much area is extremely valuable. There's a reason it's a worthwhile pocket pick in comp LTS.

[cosmic hill]

https://chivstats.xyz/leaderboards/ExperienceWeaponGlaive/ This is who plays glaive, this is how popular it is, players choose weapons because they're fun to use

https://chivstats.xyz/leaderboards/ExperienceWeaponMesser/

I am the fifth highest in glaive. Now who's the fifth highest in messer, my score is 797820

Oh wow.

2808920

Messer sees three times as much use on its fifth most played player

And I've never heard anyone who played competition defend it as a weapon

[obtuse lintel]

The problem with buffing the glaive is that its speed tier is too fast to allow it to be a "comparably good" weapon at that range. You can't allow access to anything with that speed tier combined with halberd+ range to be more than a niche pick because the game's initiative system is already too soft and it becomes a huge matchup filter issue like with the War Club.

[cosmic hill]

I was usually the one arguing it was good

[cosmic hill]

No it isn't. Pros can counter it reliably

Longswords the same speed

And longsword is WAY too long

You can't escape from someone sprinting at you with a longsword

Like, let me explain, you only have to worry about one attack being fast

[obtuse lintel]

people have issues with the longsword hitting before it's possible to even buffer block because the netcode and servers are in an extremely poor state, and a lot of the 1hs can do similar stuff.

[cosmic hill]

Maybe two

And btw the overhead isn't fast, it looks fast but it starts higher than other weapons

It's closer to LS speed on stab which is fast but like, not super fast

[cosmic hill]

Ok if it's already possible for other weapons to do this, I'm not supporting balancing around bugs. Just fucking do it and fix the bugs

[obtuse lintel]

alt overhead is the faster overhead and that's more of a threat

[cosmic hill]

If anything, nerf those weapons, THEN nerf the glaive

If "Speed" causes glitches, then that means we need to nerf every fast weapon

Not this horseshit where some weapons get privilege status

But I'm trying to avoid that because it isn't satisfying

If the game really has this issue, fuck it, glaive is just another weapon that has the same issues that pervade the game

It's not going to "ruin" the game, people aren't going to suddenly pick up glaive and dominate

[tidal osprey]

These stats legit? I dont even use messer that much and are 4000 something. Spear 3000 something even tho i barely use it anymore

[cosmic hill]

They are, they're maintained by wildcard mask and dave soter I think

[obtuse lintel]

it's @cold oracle keeping chivstats going

[cosmic hill]

NVm thought it was polehammer guys

[cosmic hill]

4000 I don't think is actually a lot. I got 2000 from going 20-20 in duels lmao

Nvm that's general xp

That is on the lower end when we're talking like, high level glaive being 700,000 lmao

[cold oracle]

[cosmic hill]

I only play glaive and dagger and I think dagger is better is where I'm at

[cold oracle]

Disclaimer on stat data is that its the best we have from tbs

A more effective look at per weapon usage would be to do a full poll of each leaderboard

Then we could see the bell curve of average xp per weapon

[obtuse lintel]

that's kind of what happened with halberd when they did a few slight buffs which made it the best teamfighting weapon in the entire game. Do the wrong buff to a weapon with the tools that glaive has and you may not have halberd kill output, but the teamfighting impact gets downright stupid.

The longsword doesn't have that much of a problem because it's only as long as the 1h sword and is like 2/3s to 4/5ths the length of the messer, so we just aggressively outrange it.

I'm the only person in the entire comp scene who actually likes playing qs and its special has a similar issue where it has to be saddled on a subpar weapon or too many people will use it and it causes a shitload of problems, so really I'd like the qs special to be reworked entirely and then have its slash and stab turned into more broadly usable attacks with a more reasonable range tier instead, for example. There was one MFL where I had 50 takedowns by the end of the lionspire courtyard on defense and 5 kills because I was simply making the entire frontline of the other team not enjoy the game with the special.

[cold oracle]

Please don't ruin my longsword I feel it is balanced

[obtuse lintel]

longsword is just worse than messer and messer should see suspect testing first 😂

the only thing that's wrong with the longsword is that its stab anim has no place existing in the game

[cold oracle]

Maybe I'll pause chivstats and do a full data dump of each weapon

[obtuse lintel]

even if I think its speed tier is overall fine when the game works out

the shared longsword/messer stab anim is 1h spear tier shit, and 1h spear is the only weapon in the game I don't think they can fix without outright deleting the current version of the weapon even if it's not as good as the 2h spear

well, that and knife. The knife is too good for what it is even if it's bad as a general use weapon.

[tidal osprey]

Just revert everything to beta and we good

[cosmic hill]

Please man, reveal how badly glaive is doing

Its ridiculous

[obtuse lintel]

every attack on knife is so fast that it basically breaks the initiative system. KC was doing some shenanigans with stab -> jab on the knife and it beats literally everything on basically every weapon slower than longsword other than riposte stab. Counter stab was too slow iirc.

[cosmic hill]

Kind of shit that doesn't reasonably work in TO

[obtuse lintel]

it doesn't work in a lot of cases in TO, but you can still just have an unlucky fight here and there where you just get to not enjoy the game

[cosmic hill]

I don't think this is an actual problem.

[obtuse lintel]

I play a lot of battle axe so it's not uncommon to disarm TO players

[cosmic hill]

Only top tier vets are noticing shit because they're hyper focused on details

And that's niche knowledge

We're talking maybe less than 0.1% of the community knows what you're talking about

[obtuse lintel]

weapons like the knife and cudgel which exist almost solely to break initiative are just bad designs

the stab jab combo is something niche, but you can simply slash through most combos anyway

[cosmic hill]

Glaive can't do the same shit dagger or knife does even now

You fight at range with it

You can't break initiative properly spaced the same way you can facehugging, aka, like a duel

[ancient night]

War club isn't a heavy weapon either. I feel like it can work because it's a weapon that's worth having worthless secondaries if you have the Vanguard's high stamina pool

[cosmic hill]

If there were more mechanics to space people away from you you'd see less of this as well

[cosmic hill]

It actually is categorically

[obtuse lintel]

I like gambling people's 1hs with the crouch lookdown accel alt overhead on glaive. It always catches people offguard

[cosmic hill]

That's why you don't get a speed penalty.

Everyone else wielding that weapon gets slowed down

[cosmic hill]

Yeah and alt overheads the longest attack too so hard to escape

Still ridiculously underpowered

[ancient night]

It's a studded bo staff. How is it so heavy that it encumbers you?

[cosmic hill]

I just want to see glaive having more strategies than "overhead, a lot"

I've done a lot of crazy stuff with jump angles (You can make a glaive slash almost vertical midair from my perspective anyway) but why would you do that when the slash is doing 30 damage

I'd even just argue give the slash 40 default damage so it meets other weapons halfway

Or like I said earlier, a turn rate buff would really help that weapon out

Glaive imo should be about footwork and positioning and using the speed to keep people out

[obtuse lintel]

they'd need to rework it more to give it more than that. We know polearms can have higher overall power budgets because the polehammer and halberd exist. There's a reason why something with the length and speed of glaive's swings has such low damage. Also, if you're playing third person the slash speed is properly a gambling tool because you can just full accel it. You can't really do that in first person because its backswing arc is fucked up though.

[cosmic hill]

What it shouldn't be is a aggressive close range weapon

[cosmic hill]

It's not proportional is the entire issue

[obtuse lintel]

full accel with the glaive is so far off screen that it's actually stupid if you're in first

[cosmic hill]

The glaive stab should do VERY HIGH DAMAGE for its speed

Also, the glaive sacrifices speed

Those two weapons, all their attacks are similarly fast

What you're not seeing is you give up stab speed JUST for overhead speed

That slash isn't much faster than the poleaxes

I think its actually the same speed

I actually have a old stats document

[obtuse lintel]

poleaxe is in that shared slash speed tier the gmace and longsword are sitting in which is a bit faster than messer, but not literally the same speed iirc

[cosmic hill]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/157wTsGsdb6OhiO3cyGw3XQ3vo9w8n-e7WyZ4CKTYs9U/edit#gid=1829292422

You'll notice that the polehammer is two frames slower than glaive

We're talking FRAMES here for windup

All weapons accel about the same

With a few exceptions like messer/ls which seem to have finer control

Might just be easier to accel them

[obtuse lintel]

2 frames at 30 fps is 132ms

that's a lot

like "consistently beat in a clash" fast

[cosmic hill]

It isn't, have you played fighting games?

Well let me check, I'm almost certain that's "the standard you'd need to play street fighter"

[obtuse lintel]

yes, and people are taking very small frame advantages which they know are present and playing with proper assumptions about them because they aren't usable on reaction and that's a standard behavior in fighting games

[cosmic hill]

Oh no it CAN'T be that fast sunder

[obtuse lintel]

properly buffering for your timing advantages is normal behavior

[cosmic hill]

That's literally unreactable. No, these weapons aren't literally unreactable

Anything less than 150ms is reaching superhuman levels

I wish I had continued doing the "Full fps" test because I feel like you need to actually record around 144 to be accurate

[cosmic hill]

My point is "two frames" doesn't make the glaive ridiculously fast

If anything, the polehammer is way too fast

It has a 20 frame overhead, that's crazy!

That's faster than LONGSWORD

Even given the height difference

So a weapon that is nearly as fast as LS gets to do, how much damage?

And the ONLY attack glaive has over it is just the overhead. That's it.

Look I'll take a 20 speed nerf to glaive overhead if I get the damage is that ok?

Like, just remove the SINGLE problematic attack

I don't think you can prove here reasonably that the slash and stab are "exceptionally good" they aren't, you can see that

They're actually very average

If not below average

so I agree to a speed nerf if that means the overhead gets to do real damage like god intended

I can see your problem but I just don't see why one attack is such a big issue

[obtuse lintel]

the problem is essentially that area is a square of range and the glaive has impact on substantially more area in a combat engagement and faster. It's not ever going to be a good weapon in its current state in pub TO, yes, but I've convinced multiple players to pull it out in comp LTS games and had it actually be the right choice, and that's mostly because of slashing for 30 damage and hitting 3+ players at a time in a way that is much easier than with other long weapons like gs or war club(have to heavy to multi-target)

[cosmic hill]

Ok but the "engagement" is its low damage slash and you can be blocked by teammates

I've multihit with the overhead but it's not reliable

You simply lack the turn speed of better weapons like messer

I've teamkilled more with glaive than any other weapon as well

And yeah I agree, glaive can be the correct choice in certain areas like dukes keep

Any objective where the only goal is really delaying people

It does less well in wide open environments where you can't control where people are going

Basically a great chokehold weapon

You did say LTS, I don't play that mode lol

Duels and TO for me baby

[obtuse lintel]

LTS is basically just concentrated teamfights over and over again so we use it for comp, usually 6v6 to 7v7

[cosmic hill]

LTS also bans throwing weapons doesn't it?

I know some competitions have

[obtuse lintel]

tertiary throws when not ambusher were banned last NCL, primary throws and ambusher throws are banned next NCL probably

[cosmic hill]

That's a weapon category glaive is weak to, ranged

Ok so you have this massive flagpole of a weapon

Who is everyone going to aim at?

[cosmic hill]

Yeah I wanted to point out that some rules are being changed that could level the playing field a bit

You know, if throws weren't a thing, I'd probably win more 1 v 1's with glaive

All it takes is one whiff and you're dead

[obtuse lintel]

that's one of the reasons I only use default/weathered weapon skins and customization

[cosmic hill]

Not a bad idea, but maybe the weapon should be good enough that my skin doesn't make it a problem

[obtuse lintel]

the glaive is also visually understated unless you're in the middle of an overhead where it's at full extension

the halberd and spear are far more showy in a "neutral" context

[cosmic hill]

You seen feydrids razor?

[obtuse lintel]

the laundry poles? yes

[cosmic hill]

It's covered in enough gold filigree I could buy agatha

But yeah lol we shouldn't flood the page with this

[obtuse lintel]

I'm talking about "how large the glaive looks in the player's hands"

[cosmic hill]

Obviously I'm frustrated by some stuff but it's a LS thread

[cosmic hill]

OH

[obtuse lintel]

when it's not at full extension it looks as short as the polehammer

[cosmic hill]

That's true

[obtuse lintel]

qs has a similar issue with its overheads where it doesn't look long enough to hit what it does lol

[cosmic hill]

I swear the Q attack looks like it's extending like Sun Wu Kongs staff

[obtuse lintel]

that's because only the overhead and the q put your hands at the very back of the qs and the other attacks put your hands in the center

the slash and the stab are still too short and the stab should do a bit more damage for being maul stab length and slower than the glaive stab

it's just the q is too good to buff qs so they should rework the special entirely

cleaving specials are inherently problematic and I don't think the current form of the qs special can ever be put on a better balanced weapon

[muted plaza]

all weapons have a weakness

[cosmic hill]

What would you think the weaknesses of those weapons are?

I've never heard someone actually go through the weaknesses of these weapons so this is a first

[muted plaza]

longsword -bad stamina

messer is quite versatile

but bad stam vs some weapons

heavy mace is the best weapon

but something like maul is pretty good vs it

[cosmic hill]

Weapon counters are a pretty weak weakness.

The other stuff is relevant but like

That's like, ok, in SFV, there was a season where Akuma was OP as fuck

No one cared if you could beat him with another character when he bodies 95% of the cast

[muted plaza]

most weapons can beat those weapons tho

[cosmic hill]

Maybe a better example is Leroy in Tekken 7

[obtuse lintel]

the gmace's biggest problem in a teamfighting context is needing to heavy, but it's survivability is amazing if you're just trying to "be a brick in the middle of a teamfight"

[muted plaza]

depends on skill more

[cosmic hill]

They can but they only have weaknessess when those other weapons are currently fighting them

[muted plaza]

greatsword is also good

battle axe too

[cosmic hill]

Ok I can name a greatsword weakness

The stab has a low turn rate.

[muted plaza]

just dont use stab

[cosmic hill]

It's completely mitigated by having a completely overpowered overhead tho

Messers is better I know but jesus christ you don't even get movement penalties

[muted plaza]

eh honestly idk theyre both similar

depends on the skill more

[cosmic hill]

I just think they obviously need some tuning

Doesn't even have to be drastic or major

Or other weapons need to be made to "feel as good"

As it stands right now it feels like shit

[muted plaza]

longsword is fine as it is

it isnt that strong really

[cosmic hill]

Some weapons feel like I'm cheating and others feel like I'm holding weights to my leg

Only game I feel this way

[muted plaza]

messer is fine

[cosmic hill]

No, it's not.

The top of the weapon isn't even accurate to its actual length

So it's already fucked from the offset

The animations are whack, we've had to patch more around messer overheads than anything else

[muted plaza]

I dont have problems with countering and beating it

[cosmic hill]

The control of the weapon is FAR AND ABOVE many other similar weapons

Play glaive and play messer and it's insane

That's what I'm talking about weapon feel

[cosmic hill]

Ok something being op doesn't mean it's "unbeatable"

[muted plaza]

it isnt op tho

[cosmic hill]

It's OP.

[muted plaza]

its about equal with gs

[cosmic hill]

Which is OP

[muted plaza]

nah it isnt

[cosmic hill]

Do you think messers A tier now?

I'm ok with Heavy mace being S tier if that's the case

[muted plaza]

messer is top 5

heavy mace is the best

[cosmic hill]

It makes the game a lot easier to play when you play those weapons

That's kind of the issue I'm getting at

it is easier to just use those weapons. Something needs to be done.

Not even a nerf necessarily

I play a lot of weapons that aren't the great ones like, just as a personal challenge and also so I can get my glaive to 300 lmao

If I was being serious I'd just main heavy mace because there's no point to anything else

and it would have been messer prior to the patch

If your goal is "minimizing the amount of times you lose"

[muted plaza]

longsword is easy to use at low lvl but hard to use at high lvl

messer and hm are good at both

[cosmic hill]

No it's easy as fuck. Going from glaive to LS is like going from lifting 30 pounds to 2

[muted plaza]

and any slower weapon is generally hard to use at at low lvl

[cosmic hill]

In what, a 1 v 1 vs the best player in the game?

[muted plaza]

against the top players yes

comp players

[cosmic hill]

The top players can't be the entire consideration because to a top player balance doesn't matter and they just stick to the best weapons anyway

Like, they're at the point they FOUND THE META

Is there not a pattern to what weapons consistently win tournaments?

I know europes very different and my mindset is colored by that

[muted plaza]

last eu tbb was won with maul

[cosmic hill]

So after the stam buff

Which is also how heavy mace got up there

[muted plaza]

ye

[cosmic hill]

I mean at this point I can just predict what's gonna win tournies

That's not good and why games usually have meta shakeups

If this game got as tight as counterstrike though....

[muted plaza]

most weapons are good for duels

[cosmic hill]

I mean actually you know, what might even this out

The weapons that keep dominating are high stam dealers. We all know this right?

Yeah, I'm not crazy? I think there was a brief 1h dominance in europe

Maybe the stam system has issues

[muted plaza]

was long time ago

tho asian tbb final was won with rapier

[cosmic hill]

Its the same weapons for 2 years now, the same high stam shit and the only change that happens is when a buff changes how stam works

That's the problem maybe

[cold oracle]

If I remember I will explore weapon usage stats based on overall usage distribution

[obtuse lintel]

that's not an "at this point" it's a "basically since release" that it's heavy mace, messer, and sometimes gs, but the prominence of heavy mace as of late is why the maul came into the meta which means it being good has actually been a shakeup

[cosmic hill]

Even LS, part of what makes it great is despite the shit stam, you can still throw out enough attacks to outstam someone or overwhelm them

[cosmic hill]

NICE

[muted plaza]

you can riposte oh most attacks with gs and win on stam most of the time

[cosmic hill]

I've been out of the loop for 8 months or more

[obtuse lintel]

if I combine my accounts I think I've gotten every single melee weapon in the game at least above level 20 including knife

ignoring skirmisher(throwing axe and javelin)

[cosmic hill]

Yeah that kind of thing. In street fighter, they have "caps" for how much damage you can do in a row specifically to prevent blowouts like this. Suggestion: base stam damage off the distance the weapon took to hit you

Aka, the closer the weapon started, the lower the stam damage

This could be bad so think about it lol

This is similar to the system mordhau used (which was very good) where the weapon had to start further away to build up damage

To prevent insta accels and what not being a primary focus of combat

I'll probably throw that out into a suggestion

It might make duels last longer but the overall effect would mean that insta accels would be less dominant and facehugging in TO would be disencouraged

[muted plaza]

Insta accels arent much of an issur

And duels are already too long

[cosmic hill]

lol I don't know a good fight really should be around 90 seconds

Have you ever seen boxing or like mma fights

It's part of the fantasy!

[muted plaza]

I've had duels last 2-5 minutes

[cosmic hill]

Ok going tbh that's like a 0%er problem

I'm all for dunking on a minimal part of the community for the greater whole

[muted plaza]

I keep forgetting tb doesnt care about comp

[cosmic hill]

My last duel that lasted long certainly FELT like 70 seconds

[cosmic hill]

Unless they add custom servers or something, I think its a mistake to focus a team game on the whims of the best 1 v 1 players

You guys literally aren't their market.

And I'm saying that as a dude who likes to duel

[muted plaza]

True

[cosmic hill]

Without the plebs being happy we don't have anything

[muted plaza]

Their market is not releasing new updates

[cosmic hill]

lmao

[onyx sky]

Need more long sword skins

[nova comet]

Brother, greatsword is not OP lmao

It's probably one of the most balanced weapons in the game

[shy lily]

Remove greatsword from knight!

[nova comet]

I wouldn't mind that tbh

[ancient night]

I wanna think the Chinese two-handed Jian could work as something that the Tenosians would import from an unnamed culture

[cosmic hill]

How can you think that about a weapon that can just riposte overhead over and over vs quite a few weapons and thats not a bad tactic?

Maybe in comparison to messer

It also gives no movement penalties on a class

The weapon, on vanguard, is so long that it outranges basically any weapon

You can't even get away from it, they have no movement speed penalties

[shy lily]

What weapons are well balanced in ur opinion

[cosmic hill]

I'd say that's closer but, absolutely, executioners axe.

[shy lily]

Idk exe seems too long don’t it

[cosmic hill]

On knight, with movement penalties

The difference is vanguard gets no movement penalties and the weapon is even longer

Like, lets not get started on the fact GS isn't even a slow weapon

Ripostes make it fast as hell

What makes it broken is all these "exceptions" that it gets that other weapons don't often get

Other weapons don't get the option to just cut out movement penalties, other weapons have to use more than one standard attack to win a fight

I don't think it's as bad as lets say, messer is

Messer is basically the same range, has a better stab, and is a medium class weapon despite being the same length as GS

And exe axe, btw, can't deal 140 damage (which leaves man at arms at jab health, essentially a two hit kill to them as well) with every attack it has

[nova comet]

No shot you just called greatsword OP but think exe axe is balanced 😂😂😂

[cosmic hill]

What's busted about it, I've seen GS go 90 kills 10 deaths and it's an excellent dueling weapon

[nova comet]

Not worth arguing man, that's laughable

[cosmic hill]

No one gets those scores with an exe axe and I can name the one exe guy who did really well on one hand

[cosmic hill]

Exe axe hasn't won a tourney and no one notable uses it

And it isn't even the top pick in TO

You're a GS main I'm guessing from the hostility

[nova comet]

Greatsword is pretty much the only weapon I never see anyone complain about, I have no issues fighting against it whatsoever

[cosmic hill]

You haven't heard a greatsword knight complaint?

[nova comet]

No

[cosmic hill]

Also yeah because messer eats up the bitching spotlight

Why complain about GS when messer exists

[nova comet]

I don't think longsword is OP either

[cosmic hill]

I mentioned it in a list of op weapons

[nova comet]

I think it's a skill issue personally

[cosmic hill]

Is this going to turn into "all the top tier weapons that vets use aren't op despite evidence suggesting they use the best weapons"

Was warhammer balanced pre-patch as well?

Not a jab at you sungod lmao

[nova comet]

There's only a handful of weapons I think are OP or too strong, heavy mace, maybe war club, and exe axe

Everything else is mostly fine

[cosmic hill]

Why exe axe specifically

I've seen dumb shit with low crouching drags

[nova comet]

Its drags are the longest ones I think I've seen in the game

[cosmic hill]

where they aim up, but that is doable with GS and messer as well

[cosmic hill]

Gs can do a lot of the same stuff

If exe axe has issues GS has all the same ones

[nova comet]

You literally can't alt counter-feint to catch them if the person you're fighting knows what they're doing

Nah, gs drags are nowhere near as long

[cosmic hill]

Actually I figured out the trick to this one: Crouch and aim up.

I know exactly what you're talking about, crouching and aiming up while countering or parrying will increase your parry hitbox

I know the trick is annoying but this makes it so much more doable

[nova comet]

No, like if they do a slash to heavy alt slash drag with exe axe, and you try to counter the original slash, you literally don't have enough time to counter-feint into the alt slash and catch it before your first slash releases

[cosmic hill]

When I talk OP I view it from a duel and TO mindset

So yeah, in duels maybe

A lot of that shit won't fly when you're in a crowd

Like you aren't going to be doing long drags all the time

GS does great in both

I'd go for a exe drag nerf if GS got a nerf to its overhead speed

But not before messer

I mean if drags are that busted on one weapon

Maybe every aspect of every single weapon that's a little out of left field

Aka, shit like gs riposte overheads, messer having extended length because the model is never accurate, weird shit like exe drags, heavy mace just dealing more stamina damage than is reasonable for its speed

I'm for all of this being looked at

Maybe I should just leave GS alone lol

I mean I agree that those other weapons are way more of a problem

I'll main it for a month and see if my opinion changes @nova comet @shy lily

[nova comet]

There are so many weapons with a great riposte overhead, that's not unique to greatsword

Messer also drags better than greatsword and so does exe axe

[cosmic hill]

Not every weapon gets the length combined with no movement penalty at all

And the 70 damage light to any class and 90 heavy to any class

Shit you can wield Gs on a class who can have a max of 205? health now

(same with messer you just can't do it to yourself)

[obtuse lintel]

this game has more netcode issues than balance issues. It's why my problems mostly aren't with weapons that are "traditionally over-budgeted on power" like the spear and the halberd but for the stabthrough problem, but with weapons which have attributes that "even in a good netcode/high server stability environment would cause problems for fundamental play even if they aren't particularly good" like the knife and the cudgel

[obtuse lintel]

knight still only goes to 200(175+25 since overheal is 25)

the other problem this game has is with poor animation blending/masked windups being so common. Try doing the normal-sided stab with the rapier and figure out when the tell is in the windup before it enters release, for example.

Its windup is actually not that short, but it looks much shorter because movement starts late.

late feints cause similar problems where the windup is often near-totally cannibalized by the animation blending and/or the animation blending can be made to look like the wrong swing's windup

[cosmic hill]

At some point you just memorize the timings and the visuals don't matter as much

[obtuse lintel]

like with the ls and messer stab to stabs

that's what I do, but it isn't a "good solution" if you want the game to be accessible for the widest playerbase

[cosmic hill]

As far as that anyway

[cosmic hill]

Yeah it's impressive it works as well as it does

[obtuse lintel]

some swings should honestly just have unrealistic animations to make them readable

it's a bad part of the learning curve for the game

in renown zombo approached the feint problem by having the swing change take place at a consistent point in the animation instead of allowing it to take place at a variable timing, but still has a generous morph window

[cosmic hill]

Most people just don't know a real thing about fighting like

Even real life fighting advice like "Watch their hands not their face"

The average player isn't even looking at the weapon

Or they're looking too hard at it

[obtuse lintel]

I think that's not necessarily the best way to go about it, but it's a good start to trying to solve the "late/early" feint problem

[cosmic hill]

Not a bad idea

[obtuse lintel]

my take is that you should just be able to morph at any point in the window, but a minimum portion of the animation should play

which makes late light feints more dangerous for the person doing them, but still a valuable mixup, for example

[cosmic hill]

Feel like battle axe would have been a better example lmao

[obtuse lintel]

talking about the overhead to alt slash late feint?

[cosmic hill]

As far as me earlier saying "balanced"

Like what a balanced weapon is

[obtuse lintel]

war axe is probably the most balanced weapon in the game

[cosmic hill]

lol yeah probably actually

I KNOW IT'S ONE OF THE AXES

They're one of the most middling categories

[obtuse lintel]

which causes problems when you get overtuned axes like the dane axe

isn't it great to have an axe that has a maul-level stam game, longsword speed, battle axe damage, javelin throw damage+projectile flinch+throwing knife throw speed+the ability to switch to a second one or to a messer?

[cosmic hill]

lmao and that's another reason I'm like "look at messer first"

messer dane being a class possibility is gross

[muted plaza]

warclub isnt op

same with exe axe

[nova comet]

They're definitely not as OP as hmace

I wouldn't really consider anything "that" OP

[muted plaza]

its not 1% op

warclub is only good if you can play it like gilgamesh

[nova comet]

Exe axe drags are pretty broken.

I will die on that hill

[muted plaza]

just read them

theyre not that hard to read

[nova comet]

Lol

[nova comet]

"just be better at the game" could be argued for any weapon in the game, doesn't make something not OP or very strong. When you're in the middle of an extended counter battle and the exe axe user suddenly throws a slash to heavy alt slash mega drag it's kind of hard to "just read it", I'm sure you know as another good duelist that you get into a rhythm sometimes and once you condition someone to expect one thing and you throw another, it can catch them off-guard

[cosmic hill]

I'd try out the crouching and aiming up thing I mentioned earlier it helps a lot

[nova comet]

My issue with exe axe is that against any other weapon in the game, I can correct and alt defensive counter feint against something like a slash to alt slash drag, against exe axe, the drag is so long that you physically can't do that

[cosmic hill]

As far as 1 v 1, you can make those drags counterable a lot more often with that

[muted plaza]

I mean just cause you have problems with countering it doesnt mean its op

also long drags-lockouts

shit mechanic if you ask me

[obtuse lintel]

even if you use a greatsword and alt slash to slash at the end of the counter window you have to walk into the slash to make it counterable

[nova comet]

That was my exact argument for why greatsword isn't OP lol

[cosmic hill]

The "extended counter radius" of crouching makes the timing on the slash to heavy alt slash a lot more manageable

[cosmic hill]

Yeah it's not a great argument

Especially when all of us are vets.

We all are good at countering.

[nova comet]

I've just never seen another vet call greatsword OP

[muted plaza]

true

[cosmic hill]

They all talk to eachother and say the same shit

And form the same opinions

[obtuse lintel]

the greatsword is at most overtuned as it's not really an unreasonable power budget. I don't think it should be on officer though because officer's kit is just unreasonably overloaded as is

[cosmic hill]

I did admit I'd go for other weapons over it

But what about Ziggy? he's actually said that and he's a GS main

[muted plaza]

vanguard gs>officer

[cosmic hill]

A lot of my opinion on GS is based off things Ziggy said

[muted plaza]

doesnt he main halberd?

[obtuse lintel]

he mains rapier nowadays

[muted plaza]

ye also that

[obtuse lintel]

but he also kinda quit chiv finally

[cosmic hill]

He does now

[muted plaza]

he'll be back

impossible to escape chiv

[cosmic hill]

He went to halberd to mix it up I think

[obtuse lintel]

halberd was his original main over multiple other games

he just also likes greatsword

[nova comet]

My greatsword is level 600 lol it's pretty much all I use. Mostly just because I think greatswords are fucking cool and they've been my favorite since Age of Chivalry

[obtuse lintel]

if the update is good it might hook him again since he has promised to play the update at least a little, but montcrux is a horrendous map so it's up to the servers to not be as terrible. The parry box change is wonderful at least.

[muted plaza]

I have lots hours with gs

probably like 1800+

[nova comet]

Where are you on the XP chart for greatsword on chivstats.xyz? I'm curious

[cosmic hill]

That's insane. I'm #5 glaive xp in the world and I took a 8 month break and I'm lvl 286

And yeah I assumed bias and I was right

[muted plaza]

my xp is lower cause I only play duels

[obtuse lintel]

there are multiple people with level 1000 gs

[nova comet]

Last I checked I'm top 30 for gs

Glaive is awesome

[muted plaza]

and I play on an alt so im lazy to make calculations

[cosmic hill]

"Top 30 gs player says gs is balanced"

Ok I'm just ribbing you lol you did change my opinion a bit

[obtuse lintel]

my highest level weapons over multiple accounts are the gs, maul, halberd, pickaxe, and quarterstaff

[cosmic hill]

A BIT.

[nova comet]

It is lmao there are better weapons, gs just fits my playstyle and I think it's cool

[cosmic hill]

"All the GS players I've talked to also say GS is balanced"

[muted plaza]

most comp players say that

[nova comet]

If I actually wanted to compete I'd just use Messer like everyone else

[cosmic hill]

I think it might be fair in an environment where everyone is using messers spears and heavy mace

[cosmic hill]

Same lol

[muted plaza]

battle axe is really good

[obtuse lintel]

in comp LTS I've been defaulting to battle axe, poleaxe, and war axe lately

[muted plaza]

really underrated weapon

[cosmic hill]

I'd go for Poleaxe, heavy mace, or 2hh

[nova comet]

I still think glaive is the most underrated weapon

[cosmic hill]

2hh only because Crusader can wield it (you get firebombs)

[nova comet]

Reach of a greatsword (more actually) and the speed of longsword

[obtuse lintel]

I pull out the raider double glaive in LTS sometimes and it almost always guarantees us a couple rounds

because it's so hard to deal with

[cosmic hill]

We were talking about this yesterday (me and doby) and I'm sorry I just straight up get more kills with poleaxe doing the same strategy

I am trying to "multi target switch more" based on things he said but it hasn't increased my effectiveness at all

[nova comet]

Idk glaive catches a lot of people off guard with calculated gambles

[muted plaza]

you can just riposte overhead it

[cosmic hill]

My issue atm is this: did you know polehammer is nearly glaive fast?

[obtuse lintel]

I was speccing a marauders match and made their polearm swap to glaive to change the pace and it won them a couple rounds as well

[nova comet]

I don't buy that

[cosmic hill]

As in, the overhead on polehammer is faster than longsword slash?

[obtuse lintel]

the polehammer doesn't cleave on lights

[muted plaza]

polehammer best weapon obviously

[obtuse lintel]

the cleave is essential for interrupts in teamfight

[cosmic hill]

Well basically this: glaive takes 17 frames to windup, polehammer takes 20 frames to windup (these are on overheads) and a LS slash is 22

For reference, 26 frames is around maul speed

That means that polehammer overhead is actually faster to windup than a glaive slash

[nova comet]

But the windup isn't everything

[cosmic hill]

There are some factors such as "it starts higher so it takes longer to hit"

But it's fast as fuck

[cosmic hill]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/157wTsGsdb6OhiO3cyGw3XQ3vo9w8n-e7WyZ4CKTYs9U/edit?pli=1#gid=1829292422

Old chart on it

[obtuse lintel]

the relative swing speed in release also matters a lot and the glaive and ls both have extremely fast-moving slashes kind of like how the qs overhead is deceptively fast because once it enters release it's one of the fastest-moving weapons in the game

[cosmic hill]

Poleaxe is my pick though because it's barely shorter

[nova comet]

I just know that if you're good at ranging and calculated gambles, glaive will fuck a lot of people's days up

[cosmic hill]

actually might be wrong I have one with a range chart

[obtuse lintel]

the glaive was never a weapon you get on to get high numbers unless you just want takedown participations

[cosmic hill]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/157wTsGsdb6OhiO3cyGw3XQ3vo9w8n-e7WyZ4CKTYs9U/edit?pli=1#gid=945738182

[obtuse lintel]

it's just about actual teamfight impact

as a funny tbird got a 100+ takedown 5 kill glaive game right after the takedown threshold update

took him two tries lol

[cosmic hill]

You'd have higher teamfight impact using a poleaxe or polehammer

[cosmic hill]

There was a threshhold update?

[muted plaza]

there was an update?

[obtuse lintel]

takedown threshold used to be 50 now it's 25

[cosmic hill]

I was gone for 8 months if I missed anything

[obtuse lintel]

change was in 2.8 iirc

[cosmic hill]

ok nvm poleaxe is actually appreciably shorter lmao

But yeah I'm pretty good with glaive

[obtuse lintel]

not necessarily. If everyone else is playing heavy-hitting weapons you're trying to make openings for them to do the damage you can't anymore, and what the glaive is for is to "create several opening faster than other weapons"

same kind of deal you do with the 2h spear

I had a solid like 28 takedown 9 kill LTS map last night with the 2h spear, for example

playing 6v6 against marauders

[muted plaza]

marauders is a clan?

dont know na comp

[obtuse lintel]

I think what I said in in-game chat there applies.
"If I'm on polearm my job is to shit on the floor and my team is there to clean it up."

[obtuse lintel]

yeah they split out of 300

[muted plaza]

ahhh ty

[cosmic hill]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1041735359450599575/1041735441747030096/98_Glaive.png?ex=652d55bb&is=651ae0bb&hm=3cb8e342069bd81d88ed0944a949f6a49585f1b6127471c80cef5c4a5a5e29d3&

Best I've done vs noobs

This was last year like 13 months or so

Big issue I see with the weapon is when you're fighting vs a opponent who is VERY good at using a high stam weapon

It feels like you're wiley coyote trying to outrun road runner as far as the stam war

And it'd help if it hit a tiny bit harder on slashes just to keep up

[obtuse lintel]

yeah that's honestly a higher takedown to kill ratio than I expect out of the glaive. I think I had a worse takedown to kill ratio on my recent-ish 170 takedown qs game if I can find it

I wouldn't be surprised to see that glaive is expected to have 2.5-4 takedowns for every kill in an environment where teammates are capable of following up on your hits

[cosmic hill]

It never happened again lmao

[cosmic hill]

It's VERY map dependent

What you're saying is absolutely true on certain objectives: dukes keep (final part), the final rush with the King on Thayic hold

There's just so much close fighting that someone is likely going to hit what you just hit

[obtuse lintel]

even in open maps the objective itself forms a natural chokepoint

either you're in range to context the convoy or you're not, and that's an inherent choke on every convoy obj, for example

[cosmic hill]

It can but glaive has an issue where you make yourself a wide target by actually trying to hit multiple people

You don't want to be an arrow magnet

And it doesn't do stam damage

[muted plaza]

just play dane axe or somethin idk I dont play TO

[cosmic hill]

There's a optimal situation somewhere where you're spaced enough people can't r each you but you can still hit them

[obtuse lintel]

halberd is still the #1 TO weapon

[hollow sentinel]

Ahahahahahahahahah

Saw this chat and laughed so hard

[cosmic hill]

Told the weapons great in teamfights, no one here is claiming it's the duel weapon of choice

[hollow sentinel]

I hate the halberd

[muted plaza]

gs best in TO

[hollow sentinel]

Love the Longsword

[muted plaza]

im not biased btw

[cosmic hill]

Longswords insane

I mean I don't know, you ever fight a good ls user at point blank who knows what a gamble is?

[hollow sentinel]

I like the falchion ngl

[muted plaza]

just riposte oh

[cosmic hill]

Yeah the falchion might be my best weapon which is sad

[obtuse lintel]

longsword has range issues, but once you're in range you're not even allowed to gamble its miss with a lot of weapons because it can combo slash too easily

[cosmic hill]

and that's why I have a lot of strong opinions on glaive. Why is a weapon I've used 1/100th of the time

More effective than my main weapon I've wasted hours on

Maybe it wouldn't be in a "organized game" but I'm not in a clan, I'm not doing organized LTS

[obtuse lintel]

the trick is not to have a main weapon. Over multiple accounts I've leveled every non-archer melee weapon in the game above 20 including knife

[cosmic hill]

The game doesn't play like that

[obtuse lintel]

if exp was totalled up

[muted plaza]

I main gs since release

but experimenting with different weapons is really good for improving

[cosmic hill]

I'm great at a lot of weapons, the weapons I go between are Glaive, dagger, hatchet, battle axe, falchion, short sword

Battle axe is gods gift to this earth

[muted plaza]

baxe is really good

[hollow sentinel]

I l9ve the faction for the tonesians

[obtuse lintel]

I was the first cav sword believer I know of in NA comp and eventually we've come to see it start showing up in LTS because it's really that good

[cosmic hill]

Ok so when people say glaives good for teamfights, how are you guys avoiding hitting the shit out of your teammates?

I've always felt that I work better with allies using shorter weapons

[muted plaza]

I kill my teammates

[obtuse lintel]

positioning essentially

[cosmic hill]

Just because one handers have wider stab angles generally so it's easier to slip past enemy guard without hitting them

[obtuse lintel]

for someone with my amount of time on polearms I do a surprisingly small amount of hitting my and hitting through my teammates

[cosmic hill]

On my best games I teamkill like 5 people a game and I'm INCREDIBLY grateful for all my very understanding allies

[obtuse lintel]

that's largely because I deliberately practice that in TO too

[muted plaza]

only 5?

[cosmic hill]

I'm downplaying it so I don't get banned /s

[muted plaza]

I just slash spam in pubs

[cosmic hill]

Well I used to play this shit drunk ALL THE TIME

[muted plaza]

and usually teamkill half my team

[cosmic hill]

So maybe my opinion on weapon balance changes when I can counter straight

My 1 v 1 glaive got a lot better lmao

[obtuse lintel]

outside of intentional tks(archers) it's only in really bad games that I get more than 3-4 team knockdowns. I do get team damage warnings pretty often with specific weapons, but that's mostly an axe problem

if I see an archer on the floor sometimes I do have to do god's work

[cosmic hill]

Only good clips I got

[obtuse lintel]

part of what helps with me not teamkilling is that I never ever play desert

[cosmic hill]

LMAO

[obtuse lintel]

I will only ever requeue if I see that map and it's not on the last 30 kills

whoever set up the lighting on desert might want to reconsider their approach to lighting entirely

[cosmic hill]

Worst insult I can give it: it looks like how midjourney AI does lighting

[nova comet]

Why is this so relatable

Fuck desert

All my homies hate desert

[obtuse lintel]

desert's lighting is so bad that my config changes to nuke the lighting don't even make it look worse

[cosmic hill]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1144051410804154438/1156897056225493032/chrononaut._A_exotic_gypsy_tent_bazaar_perspective_shot_medieva_b06d8807-5cb2-429e-b5ad-c06661a03cef.png?ex=653101d8&is=651e8cd8&hm=b07c9492344076a15ecf8b67083c906f5c303c08cc8bff421952ed22ff4ad21e&

Is that desert?

(no joke I asked it to put THREE lights into the picture)

[obtuse lintel]

be careful about turning bridgetown into desert or torn banner might take it as a suggestion

[pearl berry]

Glaive mid but sometimes gud

[cosmic hill]

I get frustrated using it but I like it

[cold oracle]

even when I think I'm properly outranging that overhead, often it still catches me

[cosmic hill]

Longest overhead in the game lmao

[cold oracle]

yeah it just sliiides right up into your business at the last second

like "he's halfway across the map" then suddenly the blade is clipping you

[cosmic hill]

I play a ranged game with it a lot, based off my street fighter experience

Aka a game where you are on a 2d plane and "footsies" are how you play

Aka, you stand just outside your opponents attack range

Move back and forth with them

I've had to implement more close range shit recently just because facehugging is easy lol

[nova comet]

@pearl berry greatsword OP

[pearl berry]

I'm the only one who sometimes uses it in comp, and it's everything but mid. Like it's dogshit or goated. There will be round where you wipe everyone cus heavy slash riposte speed or heavy overhead target swaps. I do think its viable. Not a great choice for duels cuz the counter window though

[pearl berry]

S tier weapon that shouldnt be changed

LS is solid A tier pick

[cosmic hill]

I think it should be one of your picks on dark forests duke hold, along with falchion or battle axe

lol maybe I just know I rip when I pull it out there

Defense btw

That center choke is literally glaive slash sized

Falchion guardian*

[pearl berry]

But there is weapons that play better when u have better teammates

[cosmic hill]

Yeah if I was doing clan battles, poleaxe or heavy mace

[pearl berry]

Like spear vs halberd. If you are playing with a mid team, you wanna go halberd but with a goated team 2h spear allows for more swaps.

[cosmic hill]

Yeah and spear was banned from being spammed for a reason lmao

[pearl berry]

Messer better but with good teammates LS better

[cosmic hill]

I think if you're going to go LS you should just go one handed sword MAA

Unless it's for the horn

[pearl berry]

Nah one handers are cring

[cosmic hill]

lmao

Going to hate me going falchion light shield next patch

That was ALWAYS supposed to be my build

I love bucklers

[pearl berry]

You can carry way harder with a halberd than spear, but if you don't need to carry then spear is the best

[cosmic hill]

Wish spear was less lame in general

Huge issue with the animations, they look wrong

[pearl berry]

Just give it a slash

[cosmic hill]

Yeah lol

But also make the stabs two handed and not limp wristed

[pearl berry]

Ila lol 25 dmg slash

[cosmic hill]

Yeah essentially a elevated jab

[limpid frost]

ls is good

[cold oracle]

It is weird, I feel like any nerf to longsword would hurt a lot, and any buff would make it OP, so I feel like it must be balanced pretty well

[ancient night]

I still think the Officer subclass is its fatal flaw

Longsword on Vanguard: lightning fast two hander and huge stamina pool
Longsword on Footman: sprint attack damage increase from 20 to 50 (62 on Poleman), fighting capabilities should be comparable on paper, you still have bandage kits
Longsword on Knight: lose Stamina damage races

[soft canopy]

Only weapon i struggle with is highlander sword which is wierd cause i would think would be easy for me

[ancient night]

You're not the only one, I assure you. My solution to them is "use ranged attacks". Bowman if the class limit hasn't been reached, or throw a Dane Axe and let him be someone else's problem if you can't do an archer spawn

[hazy surge]

Issue with longsword is that in this game it's considered a "balanced weapon" with how it's designed. Doesn't do too much dmg while having good speed and fast to match it.

I do agree though that it's just used too much because of this and stabs do too much damage for how quick this weapon is esspecially against players who perform janky movement tech.

[mossy spade]

I think longsword's is a bit too powerful, but it gets hilariously too powerful the higher the skill level is. I had someone destroy me in 5 seconds with a longsword by hitting me with the tip of the hitbox by facing away from me the whole time

[dry ore]

https://tenor.com/view/i-am-a-surgeon-dr-han-the-good-doctor-discord-bubble-discord-speech-bubble-gif-1845193550933450334

wrong gif

fuck it ill leave it

[mossy spade]

Its supposed to be a Mideval slasher, not fantasy fighters spinning like tops to kill each other.

[dry ore]

i agree fella

i wanted to post this

https://tenor.com/view/true-true-true-i-agree-agreement-agreed-gif-23733447

[mossy spade]

Ah

[dry ore]

i too dislike armored fidget spiiers

[mossy spade]

I will admit, the more you think about it, it is pretty funny, just not good for a game like this

[obtuse lintel]

that's just full acceling try holding right click and riposte overheading the guy

[tacit ravine]

Dont nerf longsword /thread

[cold oracle]

The problem is any nerfing of it would make it useless in comparison to other more explicit weapons

[pearl berry]

Dawg longsword is prolly the most balanced weapon in the game. Players just need to learn how to play.

It doesn't do much stamina DMG so just hold block

[tidal osprey]

Skill issue. Longsword is fine

[dry ore]

https://tenor.com/view/true-true-true-i-agree-agreement-agreed-gif-23733447

[obtuse lintel]

I still think that goes to war axe

[fresh forge]

What are the most op weapons in the game

[pearl berry]

heavymace and warhammer

[cosmic hill]

Agree its fine atm but that low stam damage thing, it has a high damage stab and a 80 damage Q thats one of the best and quickest in the game

Its not too hard to get blown out by a gamble with LS that leaves you low stam

Just dont pretend you can just block if you arent already using the best stam damage weps in the game

[muted plaza]

Just counter dawg

[cosmic hill]

One of the fastest feinting and trickiest weps

[muted plaza]

Counter better

[cosmic hill]

Just say its balanced, lets not pretend its b tier

[muted plaza]

Its balanced

[cosmic hill]

Lol def need to

Ls crushes one handers

[muted plaza]

Some

[cosmic hill]

Because its literally a one hander

With range

You cant outspace it

All things being equal

I mean. Two equal opponents, ls beats falchion more often

[muted plaza]

"Just counter"-kwazi

[cosmic hill]

Lol or Worgen

[muted plaza]

Falchion is meh

[cosmic hill]

Wait til we pair it with lightshield

Its insane in TO

Guardian falchion is meant to have a healing banner

Oh i meant a specific build

[muted plaza]

Just use gs

[cosmic hill]

You dont get self healing and a giant shield that maked you unkillable tho

Guardian is the king of holding a radius

[muted plaza]

No need just slash spam

[cosmic hill]

Its funny youre calling it spam when gs can put out like 1 action every 5 seconds

[muted plaza]

Its not that slow

And it works well

[cosmic hill]

As a dagger and glaive main its like shackling my ankles down

[muted plaza]

Glaive ew

[cosmic hill]

I got like 60+ with it in a match so yeah

Its pretty crazy

Its lame 1 v 1

Makes you feel like Lu Bu in team games

[muted plaza]

Gs best

[pearl berry]

been using glavie more in comp lts and its good

1v1 trash

its like 1000 ofense and -1000 defense

best target swaps in the game

its kinda like spear, you cant carry with it like halberd but if you have a competent team its insanly good like a support wep

[dry ore]

glaive is a passive weapon

you cant win vs someone who knows how to play

[cosmic hill]

This is the best way to put it I think lmao

[cosmic hill]

Where's the comp scene these days?

lol I mostly met people in this discord

[obtuse lintel]

mostly between clans and tournament grounds is still the hub for if NCL or other several-clan events happen again

[obtuse lintel]

calling longsword low A tier wouldn't be out of sorts. There's just a good segment of weapons which are just kind of better, and then "worse" weapons which are a bad matchup for it. The only thing I don't think should exist as a tool that the LS has is the stab animation, and my complaint is about the poor animation and not about the timings. The LS/Messer stab is a bad animation and shouldn't be in either set.

LS is a borderline weapon and it's not dominant in any mode

it's just common because it's easy and a lot of the time is a filter

[cosmic hill]

It dominated in duels up until the stam change*

At least in the U.S, the meta was "Messer, LS, one handed weapon"

Which coincides with europe in a few places

[obtuse lintel]

the messer was dominant, the LS was secondary to the messer the whole time afaik and only got worse after stamina was made reasonable for blunts

[cosmic hill]

Heavy mace was "lowkey amazing" at the time

[cosmic hill]

The fact it's "secondary" to the best weapon in the game means its the second best weapon in the game

I wouldn't take it out of the top 10 today

[obtuse lintel]

it's "secondary" to the best weapon in the game because people weren't tapping stuff like dane axe which didn't get a stam modifier and was better the whole time

[cosmic hill]

Hard disagree, I saw people using dane in tournies and it wasn't as good as messer

[obtuse lintel]

the greatsword has always been an "equal" to the messer