#Javelins are the most frustrating thing in the game

2951 messages Ā· Page 3 of 3 (latest)

dense forge
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You sure?

lucid kiln
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If you don't throw your weapon I'd be surprised but I'll beleive it

dense forge
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I don't think I've thrown my weapon more than 10 times in the past year

lucid kiln
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I don't tend to either because of what classes I play

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Well I'm SUUUUURE you've played a fps game

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Like, I can do a midair jump shot with javelin easy. It's not because it's easy, it's because I played Quake, Tf2, and other games where firing trajectory based weapons midair was the norm

dense forge
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Oh and Torbjorn

lucid kiln
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And you have less experience in melee games

dense forge
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I've only ever played chiv 2 and around 20hrs of mord if that's what you're asking

lucid kiln
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Sorry I'm not ragging on your skill at all you're obviously good, I'm just trying to figure out why it may be that you have a easier time with jav

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I can't make that score and I play a class with throwing knives, I tend to die more because I take a lot of risks in melee as a javelin player if I play it

robust stratus
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I don't think people understand how much of a carry over tracking/aiming skills from years of FPS translate over to Archer.

Of course you will think Melee is harder, you don't have years of muscle memory

lucid kiln
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But you are just throwing into crowds so I dunno maybe that's not really the case

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But you mostly got assists. Like, how long is a map typically? 20-30 minutes? With your scores, you got 1 kill a minute

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Or had periods of time with no actual kills, but a lot of damage being done

dense forge
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There is a point to be made that some things need to have impact even if they're generally not as complicated to use. But the problem lies in the case where I take up the said thing. I like to think I'm pretty good at the melee combat, and I can stall a fight pretty well against anybody until my team arrives.

lucid kiln
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Like, if jav is doing only 60 damage to someone at range, it's not even a good ranged weapon because it does worse than a throwing knife can do which can fire faster

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You lower throwing knives down to something like 30-35 damage again, it becomes not-useful. Before it got buffed, it wasn't even considered a threat

dense forge
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You can't realistically walk up to me and kill me, because I can always stall. And if there a good archers on the enemy team that's a way to kill me. But as it was pointed out to me a few times, I get a shield

dense forge
lucid kiln
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The entire point of vanguards special is it is very possible to just sneak up on people in the middle of fights when they're slowly walking and you're sprinting at top speed

robust stratus
lucid kiln
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It's very possible to counter jav throws 100% of the time if you see them coming

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Buuut yeah you don't always

dense forge
lucid kiln
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But I don't think "Oh because sometimes I get surprised" is enough reason to nerf something. Especially when maybe that's just javs playstyle. No one complains when ambusher suddenly ambushes them

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Ok they do lol but it's literally in the name

robust stratus
dense forge
lucid kiln
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I do think active parry should be deflecting javs

dense forge
dense forge
robust stratus
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It does and absorbs arrows still, it's just inconsistent.

lucid kiln
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Counter then backdodge, immediate "out"

dense forge
lucid kiln
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Or I place them in front of me

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Btw if you're fighting 30 people it should be very easy for you to use enemies and allies to block off shots

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And if a guy can get around that, he deserves it

robust stratus
lucid kiln
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How about speeding up jav throws and lowering the damage to like 65 default?

dense forge
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No I think 65 is too much

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I MEAN TOO LITTLE FUCK

vale tundra
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tbh I'd be cool with 70

dense forge
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In the sense that the nerf is too much

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Read my correction

lucid kiln
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oH

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Misread

vale tundra
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that throwing knife damage is also just a little fucked up imo

dense forge
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Happens

lucid kiln
lucid kiln
vale tundra
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and I, as a knight, wouldn't be left with so little health after 2 that a kick could kill me

dense forge
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I'd even be down for 75 or even 80 if it meant reducing headshot damage too and making it so only skirmishers can resupply all 5

lucid kiln
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Before they buffed it, duelists were actually saying they could ignore the damage. Part of the issue is leg hits reduce damage drastically, so a 35 damage attack does like, 20 damage to the legs

vale tundra
lucid kiln
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Like how many times do javelin guys even land one

robust stratus
lucid kiln
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(40 after buff)

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It's pretty much the lowest you can get it while still being good

vale tundra
dense forge
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Bite their ankles, that's how you get em

lucid kiln
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I do think that Knights should not have their 200 health overheal get removed by allies hitting them. I think if they made this change, knights could ignore throwing knives as God intended

vale tundra
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again, I only use the knives to throw at archers that I can't reach, so just having enough damage and enough knives to down a single archer is all I need

lucid kiln
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It would take 4 knives minimum to kill a overhealed knight, with headshots

dense forge
plucky forum
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I think they underperform in pubs too

lucid kiln
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When knights headshot, it's like 50ish damage

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Ambushers meant to just tank archers into the earth

vale tundra
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yeah I, I'm talking about officer knives

dense forge
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Yeah ambusher does like 62 or 63 on headshots I think

lucid kiln
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@plucky forum 60/31/2 5th place
34/10/0 2nd place
53/38/3 3rd place
I was responding to these scores earlier, I thought they were ok but not like, good compared to other classes

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Wanna know what you think

plucky forum
vale tundra
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that one eye got with jav skirmisher

lucid kiln
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If he kept playing I think he could do better

dense forge
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(also terrible aim)

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I am glad I can call you Dave now. Twenty millimeter is a mouthful

plucky forum
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Yeah, it's good. Let me be clear, the class is not bad and it does not need buffs at all (besides throwing axes). I dropped a few 120 takedown bombs with it last week. It's just not better than the competition, so I don't want it nerfed

dense forge
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Yeah but there is a certain safety and simplicity to it. I think we can get a little bit of a numbers readjustment

lucid kiln
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Maybe javs shouldn't flinch if anything to be consistent with throwables

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I don't think ANY ranged attack should flinch

plucky forum
dense forge
vale tundra
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It would be nice if throwing axes could be a decent enough option to warrant choosing on skirmisher. I don't think any class should have a single weapon that makes its other options obsolete

lucid kiln
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If people wanted to play hard classes they'd play ambusher

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Everyone just plays the easy shit

plucky forum
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I only care about the optimal performance the class can bring out when it is played and it's absolute maximum

lucid kiln
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It's not a uncommon design philosophy, ,street fighter has characters who are way easier to play and are just as competitive as their more difficult counterparts

plucky forum
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I played Mirage Arcane Warfare and that was a moba

lucid kiln
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Like, Urien is basically braindead in SFV, but being "braindead" doesn't mean your opponent is going to be braindead

plucky forum
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Yeah I don't see a problem with the character being easy to play. Combat engineer significantly easier to play than the other classes, and is much more effective on many maps then other subclasses. But you would not call to get that nerfed

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In fact, at the high level combat engineer is absolutely necessary and the team without them loses

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Then again that's at the high level not the normal game

lucid kiln
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Oh no I can fucking destroy with engineer in pubs

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Like, 20 kills, 1 death, shovel

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Bring IT

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(shovels just a rapier that's also a blunt)

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Shovel has the fastest stab in the game

plucky forum
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But yeah like we said before, I'm never going to agree with nerfing Skirmisher until you tell me how it's stronger than every other class in the game. The fact that it is easier to play doesn't matter to me

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I don't particularly mind whether it is safe or not compared to other subclasses

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In my opinion being officer with a greatsword is safer

lucid kiln
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My views kinda warped, because I play Ambusher and you simply have to accept you are going to die

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If you want to play ambusher effectively

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I do die a lot less if I play guardian but I get the same kills

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Or a bit more (sometimes I switch because I just can't ambusher effectively and carry the team without heals)

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(Been stacking defense for a week now)

lucid kiln
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Makes sense

plucky forum
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Yeah lol

vale tundra
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I still don't think officer should have even gotten greatsword

lucid kiln
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btw can someone tell me how to reach the top post?

vale tundra
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like the original one ziggy sent to start this?

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it's a pinned message

lucid kiln
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I think that'd make it more viable

dense forge
lucid kiln
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So on the first hit, you actually get directional damage indicators that tell you where you got shot without having to see the archer

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It's where the bright red comes from

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So why did you after being hit in the back, immediately turn around and start swinging when you know you are being targeted?

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If you get hit by an archer, you should assume he's going to go for the kill, why are you not defending yourself

dense forge
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The red indicator was telling me I got hit from the back, or at least somewhere behind me. The javelin hit me from the opposite side

lucid kiln
dense forge
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Yes

lucid kiln
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"Somewhere" to your immediate right

unknown.png
dense forge
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And the javelin hit me from the opposite side, around their spawn

lucid kiln
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Let me double check

dense forge
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You can even tell by the way my corpse got moved

lucid kiln
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OH I thought that guy somehow hit you

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Gotcha. So you had two archers attacking you

dense forge
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Yep

lucid kiln
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And the first archer who shot you actually dies in that clip immediately

dense forge
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Unfortunate

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Because that archer was behind us

lucid kiln
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So it took two archers to kill one guy and one of them died

dense forge
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And I couldn't see any of them. And besides, why is an archer behind my entire team?

lucid kiln
dense forge
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They spawn there

lucid kiln
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They spawn behind there

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But yes

dense forge
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I'm not talking about the jav archer

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The crossbow one

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That died

lucid kiln
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They don't spawn there when the cart is up that high, he would have had to have spawned there a while ago

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The spawns move up

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At that point, the spawns are on the castle walls

dense forge
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The jav archer died because he was in the middle of my team on the objective

lucid kiln
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Ok confused lol

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Anyway you had archers on both sides of you

dense forge
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Yes

lucid kiln
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Left and right as you went up

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You never looked left I noticed

frosty gulch
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We have a new ffa map coming so maybe we should address javelins running ffaā€™s

dense forge
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One was in the middle of my team while we were on the obj, and the jav one was 10m away from his spawn

lucid kiln
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Oh nvm you were turning around ok got it

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You turned your back towards where the enemy comes from

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And then got punished for it

dense forge
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The point of the video was that I got hit by 133 damage because I saw an enemy to my right and looked to the right

lucid kiln
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I could have easily stabbed you in the back for doing this

unknown.png
plucky forum
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Javelins don't ruin FFA and respectfully FFA doesn't dictate game balance

lucid kiln
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You can't hear me if I jump

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Being in the air makes no noise

dense forge
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What?

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The archer was far away from me, he was nowhere near melee range

lucid kiln
frosty gulch
lucid kiln
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I suspect thats the archer that hit you with the first javelin

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He picked up a highlander and died trying to defend himself as far as I can tell

plucky forum
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He's the worst dueling class. He performs the worst. Does the least damage and dies the quickest

lucid kiln
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Because he isn't wearing any chainmail like mason vanguards do

plucky forum
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Maybe only second to combat engineer? Or the other archers?

frosty gulch
dense forge
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Gonna be honest I have lost track of what you're talking about

lucid kiln
plucky forum
lucid kiln
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I think after you killed this guy, you turned around, and exposed your back

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And then a archer turned that corner and shot you,

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Inside the tunnel

plucky forum
dense forge
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Sure, my assumption is as good as yours

lucid kiln
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I honest to god 100% think this one was your fault

unknown.png
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There's an archer hanging out near an ammo kit and yo udecide to take on a 1 v 3 involving him

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With no cover, on a elevated surface

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Which exposes your head because you're literally taller than your opponents

dense forge
lucid kiln
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I don't need to make the argument, you died almost immediately

lucid kiln
dense forge
lucid kiln
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You didn't. There was only one javelin guy there

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OH NVM

dense forge
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I downed the Vanguard that I was fighting

frosty gulch
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Itā€™s just gonna turn more players off, played ffa since the beginning with mandatory bots. Thereā€™s not a healthy balance. We have a new ffa map thatā€™s gonna bring people to the mode but the balance is wack

lucid kiln
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Didn't see the vanguard throwing shit

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Still I wouldn't complain about a jav hitting you if you're going to pretend the archer isn't there next to an ammo kit

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Like what was the best outcome, you lost half your health and run away?

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You might have missed him due to the lighting and camo of his white clothes

dense forge
plucky forum
# frosty gulch Itā€™s just gonna turn more players off, played ffa since the beginning with manda...

I do not believe that nerfing something should be done simply because if you don't it will turn more players off. I only agree with balancing the subclasses based on how viable they are in their ability to help the team win the game.

We just have a difference of opinion and when balancing should be done, so we will never agree. I will never agree with nerfing the class because I don't believe he's that strong. And I don't believe you will change your mind because you just simply don't enjoy fighting him, so you want him to be weaker.

lucid kiln
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Also if you get hit by one ranged attack, I'd just start turtling and looking to see if there are any other archers nearby rather than continue fighting

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That will save your ass

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Like in that one fight on rudhelm, you just kept fighting after taking a hit like it was nothing. You should expect to die if you decide that tanking hits is acceptable

plucky forum
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If you wanted to suggest a rework to the class that kept him at his current power level in his ability to kill while also making him less annoying, then I could support that. But you're just trying to Nerf him, so I don't agree

dense forge
# lucid kiln That will save your ass

It wont. Because I'm already fighting melee. I can't walk backwards holding block because there are melees there, that can attack me, kick me etc. I turn my back to run faster - jav in the back

lucid kiln
frosty gulch
lucid kiln
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Especially if you stab. You'll make like 2 meters distance from your opponent

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Or block and then backdodge

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Or land a hit and then backdodge

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Landing a hit/countering can be canceled

frosty gulch
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Itā€™s not that I canā€™t or donā€™t enjoy fighting spears Iā€™m talking about the balance of the mode I and a bunch of others enjoy playing

lucid kiln
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Also you had four allies around you

unknown.png
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Why not let your teammates take up the fighting while you recover?

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Or just get in the middle of them so you're less of a mark

plucky forum
lucid kiln
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Archers will stop shooting at you if you hide for 5 seconds, it's a waste of their time to focus you.

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If they can't immediately kill you, they'll switch targets

dense forge
lucid kiln
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They ALL can half your healthbar or do 1/3rd of it

plucky forum
lucid kiln
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But also, archers focus on bloodied targets

dense forge
plucky forum
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So you would have to convince me that nerfing classes based on how enjoyable they are to die to is valid

dense forge
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This is very unreasonable

lucid kiln
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It's like sharks in the water, you're assuming that only one archer is going to notice you are bloody?

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No, it's going to be all of them that can see you

dense forge
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Look at my health, no reasonable person will tell you that you are in danger there

lucid kiln
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You still should have set up your footwork to mitigate more damage. It's not a good strategy to take damage and then pray that it doesn't happen again or isn't higher than you expect it to be

dense forge
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This much HP is healthy for a knight. I couldn't have possibly know that I was going to immediately die there

unknown.png
lucid kiln
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You could have also, I don't know, moved in a way to make landing a second shot harder

dense forge
lucid kiln
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You ran in an actual straight line towards that guy

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Ok but there are other archers, and on that map they're all going to be mostly behind the statue

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I don't know lol you didn't even stop to check

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You look both ways when you cross the street right?

dense forge
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There was a guy to my right, I turned to do a special attack(which locks me in an animation and has recovery after finishing) - immediately dead

lucid kiln
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This is an issue I have, it's tunnel vision

lucid kiln
dense forge
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And I got shot while I had overheal, I was fine

lucid kiln
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I'm just saying maybe you should, next time you play, take this advice: When you get shot by an arrow, take a look around even if you saw an archer die

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There's usually more than one

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Or make your movement less static just in case

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You could have just crouch accelled an overhead and did the same damage and you would have lived because you'd have ducked a headshot

frosty gulch
lucid kiln
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This is some good advice I got, "Never gamble when you're on the backstep" This means once you start taking damage, aka, you're starting to lose advantage vs the opponents around you, because having higher health means you can take more risks, you should take less and less risks

plucky forum
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As overpowered as you would like to believe the javelins, they're not even in the top five in their ability to kill people

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And that's on top of the fact that you're playing the weakest class in the game

lucid kiln
plucky forum
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Like I said, you could be annoyed by them. That's fine, it doesn't make them strong

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(in comparison to other subclasses)

lucid kiln
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Anyway maybe this is just me in my 3rd person ivory tower

plucky forum
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If you wanna support my throwing axe capacity buff I promise you'll see a lot less javelins in game

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So do that when I make the thread

frosty gulch
lucid kiln
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FFA isn't meant to be competitive at all

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The best strategy is just stealing kills from other people

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Note that, that is basically the only mode where everyone isn't on a team

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This is a TEAM game

frosty gulch
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Not everyone plays TO, why even have the mode if itā€™s gonna be trash in the sake of a balanced TO

plucky forum
lucid kiln
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I don't think we should be balancing for FFA at all either way, that's not a primary mode

plucky forum
lucid kiln
austere aspen
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2000+ messages and still no agreement?

plucky forum
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Skirmishers are bad in duels. But they're not going to do anything about it because the game isn't based on tools

plucky forum
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I don't think a single person in this thread disagrees with these two

plucky forum
frosty gulch
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So why even have a new ffa map?

plucky forum
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I mean you saw the map, it's literally just a flat plain

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But with flamethrowers

rustic meteor
lucid kiln
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OH FUCK SOMEONE ELSE SENT VIDS

rustic meteor
plucky forum
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Free for all maps are just free for all maps

frosty gulch
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But the balance isnā€™t based around ffa

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Why make content for it?

plucky forum
lucid kiln
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Ok everyone compare our videos and tell me what looks deadlier, Archer vs everyone else or me vs archer

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lol not really don't need to do that

frosty gulch
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But everything is based around TO

lucid kiln
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FFA in most games is meant to be a silly mode for fun. The only exception I can think is Halo

plucky forum
lucid kiln
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Like, it's just a satisfying "you come in and kill people, no strings attached, no objectives"

plucky forum
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They decided to balance the game at the expense of every game mode besides team objective

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And I'm fine with that. If you're not, that's okay. You should tell them to focus more on free for all instead of Team objective

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But I don't think they will

robust stratus
lucid kiln
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Note that you don't have part of your classes main kit in FFA. You don't get banner. You don't get healing horn. You don't get firebombs. These are critical to those classes and how they function

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The reason why Guardian gets banner is because he can turtle up with a shield and just let it heal him if he takes damage

plucky forum
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Yeah. If you want specific balance for free for all, I don't mind and I don't care. You can have it. You can suggest it a thread

lucid kiln
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When they buffed knight health, they didn't buff his main hp bar, they buffed his healing horn buff

frosty gulch
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Yeah that why I like ffa so much less fire and arrows and shit

lucid kiln
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I'd argue maybe archers shouldn't be in FFA but it's supposed to be chaotic goofy shit anyway

plucky forum
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But if you want to do that to the base game? No

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I can never agree

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Unless you convince me otherwise

frosty gulch
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We arenā€™t even getting custom games so we canā€™t even escape this shit

plucky forum
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But it's not. So you will continue to be annoyed by things that you do not enjoy playing against

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Unfortunately

lucid kiln
# rustic meteor

The reason I'm so critical about players complaining about archers hitting them "out of nowhere" is shit like this clear cut example. You lsot HALF YOUR HEALTH, there's a visible javelin archer right next to you and you don't even try to make it so your attacks cleave through bot hthe opponent and the archer

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Like, you could have countered that one guys strike and counter feinted and hit the archer at the exact same time

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But it's also the fact you seemed to not realize the archer existed

plucky forum
rustic meteor
frosty gulch
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Itā€™s not annoyed, Iā€™m straight up talking about something is wrong with the balance in ffa.

plucky forum
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Yeah but now you know that FFA doesn't matter

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In regards to the game balancing

frosty gulch
plucky forum
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Well that's unfortunate.

lucid kiln
plucky forum
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The most fun I have is in 40 player

lucid kiln
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So you had to counter and then turn towards the archer

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And it would have worked

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Or just stopped him from throwing

rustic meteor
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That's BS because I see it work often at a 90 degree angle

lucid kiln
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Btw when you counter someone, that person is basically nonexistant to you, you can ignore them and redirect the strike

robust stratus
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Also you just time your arrow shots for when a person swing, your arrow will hit after the window.

rustic meteor
lucid kiln
frosty gulch
lucid kiln
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Focus on the class with the least health before focusing on the tank

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Like, you've played mmos, rpgs at all?

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It's always in your best interest to kill glass cannons before killing tanks

plucky forum
rustic meteor
robust stratus
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People don't want to focus classes because that is counter play, they want to grab a 2 hand and tunnel vision a 1vX

lucid kiln
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This is like focusing on the Heavy Weapons guy in Tf2 being healed by a medic when a scout is trying to shoot you at point blank with a meatshot

lucid kiln
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If you're good at dragging you can get around a lot of blocks

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The point tho is you want to scare him off

rustic meteor
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Two heavy slashes chivohyes

lucid kiln
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Like if you land one hit on him, he's going to get scared

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LOL what!

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Ok archers have 90 health, 100 max

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What's the damage on that weapon.

rustic meteor
lucid kiln
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I was suggesting you turned that counter stab on the knight and twisted it into the archer

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Like, you can move counters after they are thrown out

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The archer wasn't blocking, so it would have just hit him

lucid kiln
rustic meteor
lucid kiln
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I might make a thread where I just go "Ok guys send your bullshit archer clips and I'll criticize the fuck out of your strategy"

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YOOOOOOO WAIT

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We should ask the mods for a coaching section!

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@plucky forum THINK ABOUT IT DAVE. THE MONETIZATION

plucky forum
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I do like money

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like I like money a lot

lucid kiln
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@rustic meteor Btw you get a little too close with poleaxe

plucky forum
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but they won't even let me put my videos in the uploads section

rustic meteor
lucid kiln
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I play that weapon too, you should be trying to fight at the furthest distance with it

plucky forum
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because it includes my metafy link in the description

lucid kiln
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I guess you were accelling a counter stab lol

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Yeah any class can two hit an archer

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One slash, one overhead

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One stab, one overhead

rustic meteor
lucid kiln
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Btw you should name your clips with what you're trying to illustrate

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Mostly for dummies like me

plucky forum
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I do

rustic meteor
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I rip it from my Xbox onto my phone

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I don't get much of a choice

lucid kiln
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lol btw you should watch those clips

rustic meteor
lucid kiln
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They seriously are archer penta kills

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I am the Saint of Archer Slaying

austere aspen
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False

lucid kiln
rustic meteor
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I wasn't using poleaxe in any of those clips

lucid kiln
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Fuck me I'm tired. Same idea with 2hh but you can get away with fighting up close more so WOOPS

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I slept 3 hours then worked a night shift, apologies

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I was basing it on your name and animations lol

rustic meteor
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I get up close so I can drag it better

lucid kiln
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Vs archer I just go for accels unless it's the final hit

rustic meteor
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Axe anims yk

lucid kiln
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You want to land one hit, then drag the next hit so they panic

rustic meteor
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2HH is basically a blunt axe

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With its anims I mean

lucid kiln
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Archers panic if they get hit once because they know your next strike can be fatal

#

Another trick is landing a hit, then jabbing, then immediately kicking

rustic meteor
#

I like to bring a Battle Axe to deal with archers

#

Special attack them from a flank

lucid kiln
#

With fast recovery attacks, which 2hh has plenty of, you can add an extra 10 damage to any close range combo with a jab

#

And I don't think its blockable

rustic meteor
lucid kiln
#

SICK

#

Battle axe is fucking great for that

#

lol you can just heavy overhead, it's faster

#

You should always choose the fastest option when dealing with someone

rustic meteor
#

It's an instant kill if they don't overheal

lucid kiln
#

That you know is going to die

#

Like if you do a special on a guy with 10 health, that's just asking for a dicking

rustic meteor
#

I special archers that aren't visibly already damaged because I account for them overhealing

#

The special downs them through overheal

#

And it kills them if they didn't

lucid kiln
#

Heavies 85 so you can prob just jab after

rustic meteor
#

It's risk assessment

lucid kiln
#

Ok yeah fair enough

#

Battle axe special isn't That slow

rustic meteor
#

I'll take the trade of safer archer kill at the risk of less safe recovery

lucid kiln
#

3 archers OBLITERATED

frosty gulch
#

Yes archers have low health, you know what happens when you kill an archer? You just restock their arrows and give them better positioning and they still go 26-4 and thatā€™s if they are bad

#

Dying is quicker than running to an ammo box to restock

plucky forum
#

no it isn't

#

maybe on attacking side on specific objectives, but that's just wrong

frosty gulch
#

Running back, restocking, repositioning to get in shots of the enemy yeah it is

plucky forum
#

I disagree

#

dying and coming back is much slower

frosty gulch
#

Maybe the 16 second defense respawn timer but everything else itā€™s on point

mystic coral
#

dying is slower

plucky forum
#

dying is slower

#

even if your respawn timer was 0 (it isn't)

#

maybe you're thinking of FFA, then yeah dying is probably faster in terms of getting to shoot again

#

but in TO hell no

mystic coral
#

a lot of the times archers are camped by ammo boxes as well

frosty gulch
#

Yeah on wardenglade and a few others

mystic coral
#

most archers aren't more than like 10s from an ammo box

frosty gulch
#

There are some very convenient ammo boxes but still dying gives them way better positioning and gives them a restock

plucky forum
#

it doesn't matter because it isn't anywhere close to as fast as just restocking at an ammo box

#

the idea that killing an archer is worse than not is preposterous

frosty gulch
plucky forum
#

it's incorrect

#

(based on TO)

lucid kiln
#

And a lot of attack respawns, you have to run a LONG time

#

Like lionspires bridge, you might respawn in 10 seconds, but that's a 10 second run to get into a bad archer spot

#

Assuming you've reached the end of the bridge

frosty gulch
#

Pretty sure @fathom yarrow has been killed by the same archer he just killed so maybe thereā€™s something to this

lucid kiln
#

Sometimes archers get lucky and they end up in the next respawn wave

#

In the same way that melee mains do

#

But if an archer can see you, that means a melee guy can probably reach you in 2-3 seconds

#

So what's the diff

#

I think TDM maps are god awful tho because yeah, archers basically get to fight from spawn. We need to change those maps.

#

This is assuming the archer is the only person you killed too, if you're in the backline, you're literally behind the enemy team and that means you can keep on killing them from behind. If that was the last enemy on a wave, you just reset that part of the battlefield, so you won, of course they're going to come back but they have to fight for ground

#

Another map where it takes archer forever to get back into the fight on attack, Rudhelms "Free Thorn" objective, everyone spawns on the BOTTOM OF THE HILL on attack, they have to run all the way up, climb a ladder, and hope no one is defending up top because the defending team can access the upper floor easier.

candid cipher
#

Oh just want to say this but if you pick ambusher and take a javelin, resupply it and get a shield, you basically turned into the ultimate javelin archer since not only you have 25% bonus headshot damage like archer, but also more health, stamina and speed than archer, not to mention that if you still have the secondary weapon you can still backstab like normal

#

And also their is a post here somewhere that caculated the damage vanguard and footman take, it proved that vanguard can survive some special hit but not the footman

plucky forum
#

reduce Javelin capacity on non-skirmisher to 1

candid cipher
#

Da

quartz compass
#

If you're good enough, the big mean jav players can't hurt you lol.

candid cipher
#

Yes if you can 1v1 with him, the thing is human always go in group if they feel that they need it, and oh boy i do love the fact that this apply on all archers

lucid kiln
# candid cipher Yes if you can 1v1 with him, the thing is human always go in group if they feel ...

Apply that to logic to any melee class. Yeah if you fight three knights its gonna be harder. It's going to be harder if you fight two knights and one archer. Don't get focused. If you seriously see an archer aiming at you give him a reason to aim at someone else. An archer doing like 50-70 damage to three separate targets is less bad for your team than killing a player off. A group of players is less vulnerable to archers than a single player.

#

If you're a knight, this is why two classes have incredible extra self heals

#

Footmen usually have a healthkit and are willing to give it.

#

I think archer kills become way more prevalent when a team is being rolled.

#

If you see an archer, and choose to just ignore them, it's your fault if you get shot.

#

Always treat them as if they could suddenly focus you until proven otherwise.

#

Fights happen at more than 1 inch from your body.

#

I'm going to write a whole fucking psa at this point

vale tundra
#

I think you've written several already

lucid kiln
#

I get so annoyed by the blaming when I KNOW that I RIP through archers like BUTTER

#

And it's almost never the melee mains fault either, its always the archer as if they're playing perfectly

vale tundra
#

Honestly, I don't like the whole "if you see the archer you have to treat them as a threat" thing. I don't have to immediately treat some longsword guy who's 20 yards off as a threat like I do the guy with a bow. But that's the nature of a ranged weapon so no point complaining about it. Only way to fix that would be to remove archer entirely, which isn't something I particularly want.

lucid kiln
#

Fortnite kids have fucking figured this out

vale tundra
#

I don't play competitive games, I don't care for them.

lucid kiln
#

This is like shotgun vs rifle.

vale tundra
#

I've played plenty of games where that's the case. I've never been a massive fan of it, but like I said. It's the nature of range, so there's no point complaining.

lucid kiln
#

Btw I reacted quickly to the first half of what yo usaid without reading the second half, I've been up for like 18 hours lol

#

Just got off a interview

vale tundra
#

Should sleep my man. As an avid stay awaker for 20 hours guy, you gotta sleep.

lucid kiln
#

But there are still living archers vac

vale tundra
#

they can live one more day

#

but I guess it's not like they're gonna kill themselves

lucid kiln
vale tundra
#

all that just to get shot in the ass

lucid kiln
#

LOL I know right

#

That was the second quad/triple I got

#

Ambushers a really solid archer counter assuming your team isn't just being rolled

#

And next patch, they're leaning into it: Any kill from an ambusher is always a kill, ambushers will no longer have takedowns.

#

So, they can throwing knife archers and the archers cannot be revived.

vale tundra
#

I'm definitely more of an on the objective player. I guess that's a holdover from the good old days where the best way for my inexperienced ass to help was to just be a body on point.

lucid kiln
#

My other best main is probably Guardian/Raider + glaive which are my point holders

#

Raider + Glaive has a archer weakness tho because it's like I'm wielding a giant sign saying "shoot me"

vale tundra
#

Heavy mace or poleaxe officer for me

lucid kiln
#

Oh I can fuck with poleaxe officer

#

WE SHOULD TEAM UP

vale tundra
#

Still upset they put greatsword on officer though. I think it would have been better on crusader. Greatsword doesn't need the horn, and it definitely pushed in on poleaxe's niche.

lucid kiln
#

Yeaaaaah. Does it slow down your footwork more than poleaxe?

#

I think they wanted to distinguish it from Devastator in that you get a healing horn

vale tundra
#

I think it weighs more, though I haven't tested it. I don't really use greatsword that often

#

I guess having 45 more health and plate armor wasn't different enough then

lucid kiln
#

Ziggy suggested giving poleaxe axe anims on slashes* to make it a mix of polearm/axe animations (it'd buff the radius of the slash)

vale tundra
#

yeah, that would be a decent enough buff

#

especially if they won't let the slash do more damage than a dane axe stab

lucid kiln
#

The slash is the only honest to god weakness

#

And that's from a weird hitbox

vale tundra
#

the short leg

#

at least the special is really good and the stabs and overheads are good enough

#

It would really just be a bad weapon without that special. I don't think there'd be much reason to take poleaxe officer over messer crusader without that special (other than the horn and knives)

lucid kiln
#

The stabs and overhead are really good

#

Stabs very draggable and the overhead is long and two hits things

#

If Halberd hadn't been buffed it'd be the best polearm straight out I think

#

You also get that nice 10% stam damage bonus that Messer doesn't get

#

And bonus to knights

vale tundra
#

it'd still have the range disadvantage compared to the other polearms

#

though halberd did need that buff

#

and the stamina damage changes definitely helped poleaxe

#

before those changes, I'm pretty sure messer was almost a strict upgrade besides the slight edge poleaxe would get against knight

lucid kiln
#

If you're using overheads/stabs

#

Out of 40 (counting shit like mallets here lol)

vale tundra
#

most of those are polearms are they not?

lucid kiln
#

Oh god you're going to hate this

vale tundra
#

I bet

lucid kiln
#

Glaive, Polehammer, halberd, spear, the greatsword, highlander sword.

#

With greatsword its specifically the alt overhead

#

Btw this is just counting the overheads

vale tundra
#

eh I don't feel anything towards that list

lucid kiln
#

Pulling data from here

#

It's not "The holy bible of stats" because the methods to gain these stats was....rough to say the least, but a lot of them are accurate

vale tundra
#

I know the slash ranges on poleaxe are god-awful

lucid kiln
#

It's when you get to minor differences where shit gets iffy

vale tundra
#

good thing the overhead and stab ranges are good

#

though I would like to see the whole "some alt attacks have different ranges from the normal attacks" thing to be addressed because I think it's dumb

lucid kiln
#

5 weapons beat it on stab and one matches it (warclub)

#

Somehow javelin has a longer stab than a poleaxe, I DIDN'T MAKE THE RULES

vale tundra
#

does 1h spear beat poleaxe stab then?

#

since I'm fairly certain the javelin moveset is practically copy pasted from 1h spear

#

idk the specifics though since I use neither

lucid kiln
#

I don't believe there's a way to fix this, it's all about arm movement

vale tundra
#

I know it has to do with animation, I still think it's dumb

#

Why does the alt stab outstretch the arm more than the normal stab? Why can't john vanguard just completely straighten his arm for both attacks?

lucid kiln
#

So you have the option of choosing between a longer attack or a attack that gets around parry easier

#

You can't "curve" the other stab and have it look natural

#

It's just more options imo

#

Like you can choose what attacks to use, games not all spam

vale tundra
#

Well that issue deflates poleaxe alt slash so I hate it

lucid kiln
#

Yeah that's why it should have the axe animation set instead

#

For the slashes

#

Then it'd be even. And there's no reason it can't

#

I think with glaive and halberd it's balanced out in those weapons are more about teamwork/are less brawly, but poleaxe is a brawl weapon

#

Since you have to fight a lot closer with it

vale tundra
#

halberd and glaive also balance that out by being really long in the first place

lucid kiln
#

Right yeah

vale tundra
#

so even with a short slash, they still get decent range

lucid kiln
vale tundra
#

poleaxe is pretty short as far as the other polearms go, but it still uses the range shortening slash

#

I swear 1h sword feels like it has a longer slash sometimes

vale tundra
lucid kiln
vale tundra
#

already did

#

voted it up almost as soon as it popped up

#

I've been waiting for poleaxe to get anything, even the table scraps of other buffs, since like 3 weeks after launch

lucid kiln
#

God tell me about it, glaive needs something

#

It can work out pretty well but

#

It's like one of the only weapons that consistently takes three hits to kill

#

The overhead is great until people get close, then you realize that if a weapon is that tall, it's hard to accel it faster than a weapon that starts lower

vale tundra
#

how much is glaive stab?

#

like damage wise?

lucid kiln
#

Stab/overhead do the same damage, it's 40 by default on light and goes up to 60 vs knight for light, then its 60 on heavy going up to 75

vale tundra
#

Hmm, I could see glaive stab being okay for a buff. It's one of the slower moves glaive has so it's not like it would become a super fast high damage move like the slash might if you buff it.

#

Because I'm always apprehensive about proposed buffs to really fast attacks

lucid kiln
#

God yeah I don't know about overhead buffs lol

#

What I can do when playing optimally

vale tundra
#

Last thing we need is for knights to take 80 damage from a lightning fast attack

lucid kiln
#

Got a few clips somewhere of me landing a overhead on two-three people at once

#

It has utility as "one of the best overheads to hit multiple people with outside of polehammer"

vale tundra
#

tbh I don't get off of knight that much

#

when I do, it's for halberd and sometimes falchion MAA

lucid kiln
#

I barely play footmen

#

if I'm playing knight its usually battle axe or falchion + guardian shield

vale tundra
#

I've played a little bit of guardian but not a lot, I'm not a fan of the big shields and I like have the throwing knives just in case

#

the axes just on crusader just don't do it like the knives do

lucid kiln
vale tundra
#

I meant the throwing axes, battle axe is rad

#

though I prefer the look of war axe more

#

Which I think brings up a conversation that is at least a little related to the one this thread is supposed to be about. Throwing axes kinda suck. They're really bad at being a melee weapon, and you have to use your main hand to equip them. Someone who catches you with your throwing axes out is gonna have a way easier time killing you than if they caught an officer knight with their throwing knives out. I don't know the throwing axe damage values off the top of my head, but whatever it is, it's either not enough or people can't hold enough of them for it to be worth it.

lucid kiln
vale tundra
#

Dave's a smart guy, I'm sure it'll be insightful

#

If throwing axes get some kind of buff, even draw speed or capacity, it'll probably get people to pick it over javelin more often

#

It's a shame to see a class be dominated by one weapon choice. Like there's always going to be a most and least popular pick on any class, but I almost never see throwing axe skirmishers. Every match I play there's like a dozen javelins scattered around the objective.

plucky forum
fathom yarrow
#

It turns out, I was kind of wrong but because of my ideology of what makes a weapon good or bad.

#

Because my statement is still true, you can beat a glaive almost entirely by parrying their attack and riposting with a weapon that has good enough stam damage, yet in practice, theres a lot of things I can seemingly do and a lot of tools I can use to make their life miserable and abuse aspects that almost make the lack of stamina pressure almost non-existent.

candid cipher
#

But uhhmmm, let just say that im an ambusher, i want to sneak behind the enemy, and the archer always there, the thing is that behind the enemy is also the front of their spawn, and this is harder if im in the defend team

#

I could use the throwing knife to interrupt his aim, but the thing is that it should be used when i and him see each other, and we are at mid-range

#

Worse is that other melee class see me

#

Just saying

lucid kiln
#

It's really map dependent, there are some maps where there's actually no way to flank around to the archer without being seen coming, like Aberfell past point 3

#

That map on defense btw has a secret path on the left side that's hidden behind a wall

#

That lets you flank behind the attackers

#

You can just throwing knife archers, they have a 50meter+ range, but I'll admit that when an archer atm is killed by throwing knives, they tend to get a takedown instead of die. This is changing next patch, any knife that finishes off an archer results in a kill

lucid kiln
#

But you can also arc them REALLY far, just takes practice

fossil sail
#

It's not often used, and it's kind of a high risk for a small profit, but if you look away and turn your camera into the throw like one would a baseball, it can make certain projectiles come out with higher velocity. Afaik mostly just offhand ones.

lucid kiln
#

So you can accel throwables, is what you are saying?

fossil sail
#

It was most visible of an effect on a shield, given the shield is a big object.

#

I'll try to record it and show ya later

candid cipher
#

Royal one

#

But yeah like you said, some map have the ability to flank around, some not

#

And damn i didn't know there is a secret path there

lucid kiln
candid cipher
#

Man, there is one single tower on that map and i don't think there is any wall there

lucid kiln
#

@candid cipher

unknown.png
#

That BIG crumbling structure on the left

candid cipher
#

I get it

#

But this is dark forest map, not aberfell

fickle ruin
# lucid kiln You can just throwing knife archers, they have a 50meter+ range, but I'll admit ...

is it just throwing knives that will do this? it seems unfair for skirmishers.

  • Firstly, you can just throw another knife to finish them off
  • It makes no sense for this only to apply for archers and not other classes
  • A good skirmisher can easily fulfill the role of "melee guy who can target the enemy team's archers," except the throwing axes commonly down archers without killing them. By further buffing the throwing knives (they have been buffed in the past already), it not only makes the archer class worse, but it makes using the throwing axes as a skirmisher a far worse pick than it was before (throwing axes are very underpowered, especially compared to javelins)
woven stream
#

Ambusher is getting a new perk that allows them to kill other players without downing them

fickle ruin
woven stream
#

In any situation, it looks like

fickle ruin
#

Thanks for Platyplysm for pointing this out:

javelins cost less stamina to throw than axes. Another reason why javelins are op compared to axes.

robust stratus
#

Everything is OP compared to throwing Axes

candid cipher
lucid egret
#

I love how this went from a foolish debate on javelins to the great secret of the Ambusher

candid cipher
#

But fr, every ambusher need that shit if the attacker are already at that obj

bronze aspen
#

If going against javelin just counter it when thrown duh

#

Pro players choice

candid cipher
bronze aspen
#

Counter errbodeh

candid cipher
bronze aspen
#

I would simply leave the fight if i saw a skirmisher

#

I would tell them have a good day

#

Im sure they would understand

#

But all jokes aside

candid cipher
bronze aspen
#

Not for console šŸ˜‚

candid cipher
#

Yeah but if the group start to throw their weapons at you, that's gonna be a problem

bronze aspen
#

Ueah but majority of the melee dudoos got bad aim

#

Its the skirmisher thats the issue still šŸ˜‚šŸ˜­šŸ˜‚

candid cipher
bronze aspen
#

So what im reading is

#

We need smoke bombs back

candid cipher
#

Now that's some pretty good recommend for ambusher

bronze aspen
#

Fr

#

What do they get again

#

Refill?

candid cipher
#

I mean if the refill ammo skill could also refill when ya are refilling with ammo box, that is fine

#

But totally a skill, really underpower

bronze aspen
#

All im saying

#

Armored fist can't arrive sooner

candid cipher
#

Yep

bronze aspen
#

If its on ambusher im gonna faint tho

#

Although it'll prob be on them

candid cipher
#

šŸ’€

bronze aspen
#

Wherever I am doesn't matter

#

Ill be in the middle of the freeway

#

Faint

maiden birch
#

hi friends, just reaching out to say I've seen this thread and made some notes for you

plucky forum
#

cool

#

I hope you don't nerf them though lol

candid cipher
austere aspen
#

Feel free to screenshot

plucky forum
#

moonmoon if you buff throwing axes slightly it will decrease the pickrate of javelins šŸ„“

vale tundra
#

true statement, javelins won't be picked as often once they're not the clear superior choice

austere aspen
#

Stop ruining the fun for skirmishers

#

I wanna instakill people

plucky forum
vale tundra
#

exactly what I'm saying

plucky forum
#

just make throwing axes go from 6 > 7

#

fixed it!

vale tundra
#

I'm okay with javelins being the hardest hitting option for skirmisher, I'd just like to see throwing axes be good enough to be worth chosing

#

other than for the memes or for some kind of masochistic challenge

candid cipher
fickle ruin
#

the fact that an archer with a longbow can retain initiative after getting hit by a throwing axe- meaning they draw and shoot their bow at you (and get a GUARANTEED hit because you can't block while "reloading") is indicative of a problem with the "reloading" time of throwing axes

#

it's not just bows that can do this. In fact, any weapon in the game can do this.

plucky forum
#

like it's not that big of a deal as long as I have that 7th axe lol

lucid kiln
#

BUFF THROWING AXE RELOAD

#

Because you can arc throwing axes over objects due to its massive curve, so while an archer can fire and shoot at you, they can't see you so who cares

#

But also half the time you're throwing it at an unaware archer. He's probably not going to aim at you in time to really get a accurate shot off. Warbow doesn't have initiative, I think.

#

...also if you land one headshot, he doesn't get to shoot

copper pier
#

Leave javelins alone

austere aspen
#

Based

earnest oriole
#

Buff throwing axe in general. Make that shit rapid fire

austere aspen
#

Make it explode

earnest oriole
#

Make it come back to you like Thorā€™s hammer

fickle ruin
#

make throwing axes have zero gravity and penetrate through multiple targets

vagrant spear
#

They are already nerfing spears, but they won't nerf a throwable 1h spear that can 1 shot a vanguard

plucky forum
#

They're also not nerfing their damage. Only their knockback and combo speed

vagrant spear
#

I mean EITHER nerfing the damage OR removing the flinch and reducing the special attack speed would do me fine

#

I wouldn't even mind if they kept the same ranged DPS but spread it out over faster ranged attacks. At least I would have a chance to block the second one if I was say, engaged in a 1vX already

vagrant spear
#

Or another idea could be to keep base damage the same but reduce the headshot multiplier on javelins.

To be clear I don't want them nerfed into uselessness. I think having a hybrid melee/ranged class is really cool and fun to play. But small adjustments can be made that make a big difference to the frustration level of other players. Next time I die to a javelin, i want to think to myself 'well played archer guy' and commend

plucky forum
#

but reworking them like you said to be similar DPS but spread out would be fine to me

#

if you could write out exactly how it could work

vagrant spear
#

@plucky forum I mean simply like instead of doing 85 damage per javelin every 3 seconds (idk the exact cooldown), make it 55 damage per throw every 2 seconds. Hell give them an extra javelin so they have 6 instead of 5, to compensate.

buoyant badge
#

javelins should be worse at melee for sure

#

skirmisher having a shield is obviously joke as well

fickle ruin
buoyant badge
#

go read the thread above

#

100 people mentioned that a range class shouldnt be able to delay their deaths 30-60 seconds once theyre in a 1v1

#

but skirmisher can do that just by holding block

#

and in that timeframe they just get saved by the spawnwave

#

also other thing, the class is already the hardest to kill in the game which shouldnt be true for a ranged class

buoyant badge
#

some of the less delusional javelin players at least admit its ridiculous

fickle ruin
#

Javelins are very weak in melee. As a skirmisher you'll have to stab someone 4-6 times to kill them, while a single heavy overhead from almost any weapon is enough to kill you. You also can't even make use of the throwing ability like the ambusher can in melee fights because the "reload" time is so long that you'll only give the enemy a guaranteed free hit (even if they don't block successfully). The light shield is the only unique advantage a skirmisher has in a melee fight and it is a nearly negligible one when you take everything else into account. If you aren't able to kill the class with the worst health and stamina of all classes in the game, that's all on you.

Besides, some people like to mix melee and ranged gameplay. By nerfing the javelin's melee capabilities, you'll only see the majority of skirmishers start camping even more, making them a greater nuisance.

thorn pumice
# fickle ruin Javelins are very weak in melee. As a skirmisher you'll have to stab someone 4-6...

I disagree with "a single heavy overhead from almost any weapon is enough to kill you" because it is simply not true. Can you list the heavy overheads that do 90-100+ damage on skirmisher? Highland Sword is one, but what are the others? It seems blunt and chop weapons would not be on this list because they have multipliers and 90-100 base would make them insane with the multipliers. I am separating heavy overheads from specials and sprint attacks, both of which add more weapons to this list but have increased requirements/setup.

vale tundra
#

Greatsword is another. 90 damage heavy overheads

woven stream
#

As far as I know, these are all the melee attacks in the game that can oneshot archers at base health

Highland Sword heavy overhead - 100
Greatsword heavy overhead - 90

Maul special - 120
Battle Axe special - 100
Greatsword special - 100
Polehammer special - 100
Messer special - 90
War Axe special - 90

Greatsword leap attack - 100
Highland sword leap attack - 100
Messer leap attack - 90

Spear sprint charge - 94

#

The heavy overheads and leap attacks are guaranteed kills, while the special attacks and sprint charge will down them

rustic meteor
#

Waraxe

woven stream
#

Yep, War Axe special does 90, I'll add it

plucky forum
plucky forum
#

That's why I support Rahlio's idea for a rework. It keeps him around the same power level while getting rid of one of the main issues that people have with facing him. Although, I don't believe this is necessary at all because I myself have no issue fighting skirmishers

gleaming hearth
#

Did keeper get banned or leave

vagrant spear
#

like a rework of attack speed, or interrupt effects etc can be enough to make the difference

vagrant spear
# plucky forum That's why I support Rahlio's idea for a rework. It keeps him around the same po...

I have no issue fighting skirmishers, 1h, or 2h spear 1v1. The problem is when they stand out of range when you're in 1vX and fuck you up-- a situation where the odds are already stacked heavily against you. (Also, does active parry even work against javelins???) The counterpoint would be 'any one of the ppl you're fighting could be the one who killed you'. Yes, but you have a chance of killing them or getting revenge later in the match, you'll never reach the skirmisher. He'll just haunt you the entire match putting javelins in your butt any time you're not looking directly at him. If I catch an archer, I'm reasonably sure I can dispatch him before his whole team arrives. If I catch a skirmisher, he'll just block with his shield, spam dodge back and special attack until his team arrives. If I think better of it and retreat, he'll fill me full of holes.

If the damage reduction with speed boost for net same DPS was implemented, I think I would not rage over getting finished off by a skirmisher whilst I'm already wounded. From the skirmisher's perspective, I think it will be more fun too. Being able to fire faster at enemies and probably racking up a similar number of kills, (just not off full-health foes).

IDK, admittedly I don't have your expertise (love your videos btw), but I have played 500+ hrs of Chiv, and I am speaking from a 'player fun' perspective while trying to be as objective as possible.

plucky forum
#

so I guess the tradeoff for Skirmishers is that they are worse overall but survive better than the other archer subclasses

vagrant spear
#

yeah and since the changes, i haven't really had much to complain about in regards to bowmen/xbows

plucky forum
#

which overall hurts the team's chances of winning

vagrant spear
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Usually, but once in a while you get that skirmisher like in the game i was in today where he goes 74-4 and topfrags tho that can be said of any good player on any class

#

burst dmg is everything in PVP, a class like ambusher... if given the right burst dmg ability might perform much better than their total dps might imply

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to that point, i think both hatchets and ambushers need a buff

plucky forum
#

Ambusher and Hatchet are kinda fine. I would buff Cudgel, not Hatchet

vagrant spear
#

oh yeah cudgel šŸ˜‚

plucky forum
#

Hatchet currently two shots Knights...

vagrant spear
#

sorry not hatchet, i meant throwing axe

plucky forum
#

Oh yes I agree with that

#

Well any change to Skirmisher would be to make it more fun to fight against, rather than a nerf

#

I would suggest removing the increased headshot damage and then giving him one more Javelin

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So he would have 6 Javelins and then 25% headshot damage increase instead of 50%

lucid egret
#

If heā€™s holding block the second you approach, then just jump kick

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Ez

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Skirmisher has a shield so they donā€™t lose their weapons instantly, and plus they are also supposed to be anti archer (I know this because I play age of empires)

lucid kiln
#

If you land one hit, kick or combo, because the first instinct any skirmisher is going to have is to turtle up when they get hurt

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Also, if you get behind a skirmisher, use your sprint attack or overhead them as fast as possible, then when they turn, start revving up a heavy stab and side drag it

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This move will fuck them up because the first hit, they'll turn around and hold their shield up, but if you move in the direction they start turning your stab will be in their back

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You can also just smash their shield down in seconds, it doesn't have that much health. If you land one hit, then their shield breaks, that's another free hit. Also you might have just killed them anyway because partial damage is dealt when you break shields. Another good move is counter stabbing their stabs over and over. The thing about countering is when you counter your opponent, they have to block or they get hit, and many archers can't keep up with rapid counter stabs against them, especially with javelin which is really short so you can walk into them and accel it at lightning speed

#

Depending on the class you play, you probably have something you can throw as well. If you hit someone trying to throw a jav with a weapon, their throw gets cancelled

#

If you're playing with a shield, you always have a free throw

lucid kiln
#

Who is this legend

#

That's insane, he must have landed every single shot

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It sounds like his team was mega stacked though

#

Archers get focused on so hard, I have no idea how he managed to survive the waves of players who must have been gunning for him

lucid egret
fickle ruin
# vagrant spear I have no issue fighting skirmishers, 1h, or 2h spear 1v1. The problem is when t...

Any class can fuck you up in 1vX. A guy with a spear can fuck you up. A guy throwing a shield can fuck you up. Anyone can do this. You will always be at a significant disadvantage in 1vX. Do you expect the weakest class in the game to go full rambo-style and dive head first into the enemy's spawn alone? I've tried doing this as a skirmisher many times. The class is isn't meant to be effective on its own. Most good archers and skirmishers realize this so they resort to sticking with teammates. This is the reality of a class with low health, low stamina, mediocre speed, and ranged weapons. It's unfortunate, I don't like it, and I wish it were differentā€”but I don't blame them for it.

plucky forum
fickle ruin
#

such is the nature of getting hit by an unseen projectile

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you'll always feel like you didn't deserve to get killed by a javelin

plucky forum
#

Such is the nature of Archer lmao

fossil sail
#

This is why I just don't get hit.

vagrant spear
# fickle ruin Any class can fuck you up in 1vX. A guy with a spear can fuck you up. A guy thro...

NO, that is not what I'm saying at all. I literally said in the very comment you replied to that *The counterpoint would be 'any one of the ppl you're fighting could be the one who killed you'. Yes, but you have a chance of killing them or getting revenge later in the match, you'll never reach the skirmisher. * The game should reward you for playing well, and not put you in a position to be completely shut down for the rest of the match by one other player.

If a skirmisher decides he wants to make my experience suck, he can basically make it so that if I don't spend the entire match chasing or avoiding ONE guy, I just won't be able to play the game. It has little to do with skill or stats and everything to do with his ability to choose the nature of engagement.

It's a cop-out to say "that's just how ranged classes are."

Other games balance for this by giving melee classes gap closers or additional armor vs ranged. The proper way to balance for ranged class damage is not to ask 'how much damage can they deal in X seconds' it's to ask 'how much UNANSWERED damage can they deal in a given distance if their target is running full bore at them.'

If it takes me 10 seconds to close the distance with a Javelin chucker, and he can fire off one javelin every 3 seconds, that's not just 85 dmg per javelin/3 seconds for 28 DPS... That's 255** unanswered** total burst damage that I have to dodge/block perfectly in order to actually reach him.

As I've suggested earlier, I would much rather they do the SAME DPS that they currently do, but rework them so there's less windup and recovery on the throw, for an increased fire rate and decreased burst damage. That has the effect of giving the victim more agency and allowing them more chances to survive via skill and timing.

#

That way if you mistime your blocks, or you try to face tank it, you still die in the same amount of time except skill becomes a larger factor for both combatants. When you die it feels deserved.

fossil sail
# vagrant spear NO, that is not what I'm saying at all. I literally said in the very comment you...

I don't think it's a cop out to think that a ranged class is going to make it intentionally difficult to get close to them. The entire point is that they want to be ranged, of course they don't want to be close.

If in your poor example you're allowing someone to spam throw javs at you and you're not countering or blocking the throw damage, you're insane. You do not need to "Block perfectly" in a game where block can be held, and with a skirmisher's pitiful stamina pool, they're basically empty if they do 3 throws in succession.

#

Other peoples' arguments regarding their team being in the way has more merit, but your example in particular is extremely poor.

vagrant spear
# fossil sail I don't think it's a cop out to think that a ranged class is going to make it in...

That's just plainly untrue. Look at this.
https://youtu.be/PZlOyK0EWIM?t=1478

YouTube
SlimeUwU
Chivalry 2 Javelin + Skirmisher Guide

In this Chivalry 2 Javelin Guide, you can learn how to use the Javelin as the Skirmisher class. I go over all of the mechanics behind it as well as cover a large number of examples and scenarios of its usage.

Thumbnail Anime Art by
https://twitter.com/Shibazakie_

Chapters:
0:00 Chivalry 2 Javelin
0:30 Swing Styles
1:02 Aiming Issues
2:32 1vX ...

ā–¶ Play video
fossil sail
#

Okay, so they're a hit away from empty. Archer stamina pool base value is still extremely low.

vagrant spear
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Regardless, throwing javs doesn't use a lot of stamina. They also have a shield. They also knock back when you block

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And they only have to get it right twice

fossil sail
#

No, you only have to suck twice. That's the difference.

#

It's a skill issue if you're letting someone hit you with javs unopposed.

#

Countering is easy. Blocking is even easier.

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And you'll still be in the lead of stam pool.

vagrant spear
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This is NOT a skill issue. Show me one example in that video of a victim of his who died because he wasn't playing correctly

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it's a long video, i'm sure you can find one example somewhere of someone getting hit with a javelin who should have just gotten gud

fossil sail
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You mean the skirmisher guide video meant to highlight correct play of a jav player. You want me to sift through 28 minutes of intentionally good skirmisher plays to cherry pick player incompetence?

vagrant spear
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I'm not out to make javelins useless or unplayable man. I'm saying tweak them so they don't do 133 burst damage in one throw

fossil sail
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Fine, it's Saturday, I can waste my time.

I will skim through and make record within this video the total number of instances where it's a 1v1 scenario and count player misplays at that point.

vagrant spear
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I'm specifically NOT talking about 1v1 scenarios

#

as I stated earlier

fossil sail
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Your example was.

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Which is why I said it was bad.

vagrant spear
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I had to boil it down to just distance vs damage vs speed

fossil sail
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You said that you're approaching someone in 10 seconds and they're throwing javs every 3 seconds like a math equation. If we're going to start including additional variables, they need to be stated.

vagrant spear
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I have not added any variables, i'm removing them

fossil sail
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So it's a 1v1 scenario then, correct?

#

Just so we have the quote on record

vagrant spear
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sigh. How would you calculate the math for 1vX? it's the same in terms of damage vs distance vs speed yes? except there are even MORE variables working against the target

#

is my math wrong? I'm sure the exact speed of a javelin throw differs from what I estimated, but the point is about BURST damage and the aggregate effect it has on PVP experience. NOT relative strength between classes

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imagine I could do maul overhead damage from a distance you couldn't possibly reach me from, it really wouldn't matter if my class was weak and slow

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maybe i could only do it once every 20 seconds

fossil sail
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For 1vX? Not at all. That gets extra convoluted when we start considering cleave damage, counter windows, if the person is intentionally groundhitting for quicker combo speed, the range of weapons to one another and each individual base class speed, the amount of opponents, the amount of uncounterable damage instances and their time (such as specials), etc, etc.

We can cherry pick easily. In regards to your math, if you approached your opponent, NOT blocking, NOT countering, NOT dodging any of his attacks, and he hits at 100% accuracy, and he's presumably getting headshots, your math might be perfect

vagrant spear
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no, because if he got ONE headshot i'd be dead

fossil sail
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Then not a headshot.

vagrant spear
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85 dmg is a torso hit

fossil sail
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So your math is perfect if your subject is the most incompetent player known to man

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Who is just letting someone hit them 3 times

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If we're going for impossible scenarios, Ambusher does more DPS with backstab dagger special spamming

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If my opponent refuses to look towards me, bam, I'm a god.

vagrant spear
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Well unless we want to do a series of controlled experiments and calculate the average hit rate of javelin throws in a situation exactly as described, we're left with the thought experiment

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If you want to talk about realistic, then the ACTUAL scenario is someone is already engaged in battle, and the javelin thrower comes up from a flank and tosses ONE javelin and the opponent is dead

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I'm utterly unconcerned with duels

fossil sail
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The issue, which I think you're not grasping, is that these controlled experiments are excluding essential variables for determining balance, and not everything can be solved like that. A controlled experiment can (and oftentime does) play completely different to a live environment.

Like how TBS was going to nerf maul because their metrics was suggesting it's broken, but in play it wasn't.

vagrant spear
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well on that we completely agree

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the whole point of what i was trying to illustrate is just that

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if you only take raw DPS numbers you don't capture or contextualize the actual experience of playing

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BURST damage is what ultimately makes the biggest difference in PVP

fossil sail
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Also if I'm getting flanked by any opponent, I'm probably in a bad position regardless. Flanking is a good military tactic for a reason.

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I'm at fault if I can get successfully flanked.

vagrant spear
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I'm at fault if i'm in the visual range of a javelin thrower

fossil sail
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And you don't respond to their existence accordingly? Absolutely.

vagrant spear
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how, how should i respond

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wear a shield? nope they don't passively block javelins. hold block? I'll run out of stamina. Run away? they'll jav me in the back

fossil sail
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Depends on the live scenario. If you're out in the middle of a field with no cover, it'll be far harder than tucking behind cover, and in turn you'll have to try and choose when to riposte or counter based on their throws.

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If your only solutions are either A) Hold block or B) run away, then no wonder you have an issue with skirmishers

vagrant spear
#

Oh no, I can dedicate an entire match to dealing with him. I'll chase him, putting myself out of position. Counter and block his javelins, probably eventually kill him. And when he respawns I have to do it again, and again, and again, probably just dying to his friends most of the time. The end result is the match becomes entirely focused on trying to avoid death from ONE guy.

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It's not hard to do that. It's just NOT FUN

fossil sail
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A very extreme response as opposed to just paying attention to your opponent's attacks and countering appropriately.

vagrant spear
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It literally just happened to me yesterday

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Do you main javelin?

fossil sail
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No.

vagrant spear
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Okay so you're playing reasonably. Not getting out of position or getting flanked. You do as you do in Chivalry and start fighting people and get hit with a javelin. You've lost 75% of your health in one throw... Now you what, "pay attention to your opponent's attacks and counter properly?" while fighting someone else? How do you time your active parries to his javelin throws? Can you even see where your opponent is? Sorry, but I think you're being completely disingenuous

fossil sail
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I'll address your post piece by piece.

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Since it's also a bad example.

vagrant spear
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you're basically just saying 'git gud' This post isn't to whine about dying. Everyone dies all the time. It's that one class is making the game really unfun for every other class

#

I've said my piece as have everyone else in this thread. Offer solutions

fossil sail
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That would require me to see an adequate issue.

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My solution right now is git gud

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Now let me address the post

vagrant spear
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My dude. If I don't want to die to a skirmisher, I won't. The problem is that's all I will be focused on for the rest of the match.

fossil sail
#

Okay so you're playing reasonably. Not getting out of position or getting flanked. You do as you do in Chivalry and start fighting people and get hit with a javelin.
Reasonably is ambiguous, but if I am not flanked or out of position, I should be able to reasonably see the skirmisher. I have failed to properly respond to a threat.
ļ»æ
You've lost 75% of your health in one throw...
Depends on class and if I have overheal. However, there are many weapons for multiple classes that can 2 shot a player. Hits to kill is a relevant metric for all weapons.

Now you what, "pay attention to your opponent's attacks and counter properly?" while fighting someone else?
Literally yes.

How do you time your active parries to his javelin throws?
Jav throws can be the initiating point for an active parry, all projectiles can be countered.

Can you even see where your opponent is?
If I am not flanked, I should be able to see him. Failure to see him is likely a personal issue.

vagrant spear
fossil sail
#

That change leads to more stam loss spent throwing, mediocre damage, and a shift in target priority to nearly dead enemies instead of putting opponents at a 1-hit killable range for their allies.

vagrant spear
#

As I've already shown in the video I linked above, stam loss for a javelin throw is negligable. Aside from that, if you are adjusting damage and speed values, you have an opportunity to tune stamina loss as well

fossil sail
#

That is a significant amount given an archer's smaller pool, as I already addressed in that link posted above.

vagrant spear
#

It's not mediocre damage though, if all damage types are equal right? The math works out

fossil sail
#

55? That's a longsword stab. Meh.

vagrant spear
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Which is the point, not all damage types are equal

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despite doing equal numbers

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I'm going to enjoy my saturday. You are either trying to troll me or unable to approach this objectively due to bias.

#

Dave disagrees with me, but offered up reasons other than 'git gud'

fossil sail
#

Then go enjoy your Saturday. I have been very objective and offered solutions to your scenarios. I am sorry you find them too difficult to pull off reliably.

lethal atlas
lethal atlas
lethal atlas
lethal atlas
fossil sail
fossil sail
# lethal atlas only possible on NA

I think too many people forget that players oftentimes switch classes between respawns too. There is sometimes value in changing class as needed, and just because some guy might end the match or at certain points be a Skirmisher does not confirm that for the entirety of the match he was Skirmisher. This is true for many class-based games with respawn times like TF2

lethal atlas
fossil sail
#

imo, If someone can survive as Skirmisher for 30 seconds at melee range, then the person fighting them is doing it wrong.

#

Their best lifeline is their buckler, and even that doesn't last long

lethal atlas
#

if a person doesn't want to fight me he can just walk away

fossil sail
# lethal atlas honestly I have to agree with Ziggy here when he says the game is too defensive ...

So being able to simply run away / chase mechanic is a slightly different topic for me (one of which I think will be nice to address once the chase mechanic even works), but in terms of actual 1v1 combat with neither participant running away, I rarely run into a fight lasting longer than 15 seconds at higher level. There is those occasional hyper defensive duelists that just dodge away and swing, but even then that's usually resolved by forcing them to burn those dodges.

#

Given skirmisher dies to, generally, 2 hits, fights with them are exceptionally short lived

lethal atlas
fossil sail
#

Both.

Noobs involve gambling, which is ALWAYS a short lived duel one way or another.

But for higher level, back in Jan 2022, duel meta mostly leaned around a counter-heavy playstyle, but the meta has shifted with the recent updates to incorporate far more jabs, specials, and intentional ground hits. Along with blunt damage dealing increased stamina damage, the meta has shifted to a game focused more on accels, intentional measures to bypass recovery, and disarm attempts.

#

Playing the counter game until someone slips is just less valuable.

lethal atlas
#

I would agree that the average length of a duel is shorter now, but saying that such a fight rarely "lasts longer than 15 seconds" is delusional. I went over about 15 clips I've got saved, none of the fights were less than 22 seconds despite me playing a weapon that ends duels quickly

fossil sail
lethal atlas
#

In general if I encounter a player who dodges around and hard block+hits then I just don't fight him, it's a waste of time and leaves me exposed to being ganked

fossil sail
#

Fights versus knights for 2 of my 3 main weapons tends to last longer than Vanguards, but then we're just splitting hairs because hits to kill differ

#

I find the heavy dodge playstyle kind of boring too. I'm okay with being just barely out of a wepaon's range because I feel like that's where footwork really matters, but I don't enjoy when both of us are out of each other's threat range. Then it's like why even bother wasting my time?

lethal atlas
#

I wouldn't say it's boring, rather there's no counterplay to it

#

I suppose ranged classes do counter it

fossil sail
#

I have a harder time vs it with pickaxe, but ambusher can punish it pretty well with its own ranged tool, and 2h spear is usually at advantage.

#

A knight with throwing knives wouldn't be too bad either, just gotta know when to switch

lucid kiln
#

Tested it up to the maul

#

You have to react really fast

#

Unless shield disarms are different than weapon disarms

lethal atlas
lucid kiln
# lethal atlas shield break is not a disarm

Don't think I tested shields, but if you want to do this for me: Get a buddy to hold a shield until they're disarmed and then when they're disarmed just hold block and see if they're able to block before you can hit them

#

They definitely don't have good initiative after a shield is broken, because allies can hit them

#

If I can get someone in a duel server I can do it myself

short rover
#

I've never died to a javelin and cried this hard

#

Like, javelins are strong yes.
But most javs I see I can cut down

#

The crazy motherfuckers who have their combos down should be rewarded for doing so

mellow pebble
#

There is nothing wrong about javelins. SKILL ISSUE

candid cipher
mellow pebble
candid cipher
mellow pebble
#

That is a rare sight to see.

candid cipher
#

Indeed

fickle ruin
candid cipher
onyx otter
#

Anyone who thinks javelin isnā€™t op is a clown

violet drum
plucky forum
kind parrot
#

Archer's conceptually will never be balanced. There will always be a massive advantage to ranged attacks

#

Keeping them "Underpowered" is the way to go to preserve the melee slasher feel.

fickle ruin
violet drum
#

Only frustrating thing I find as a archer is you can block 30% damage if blocking and partially looking towards my arrows direction.

daring venture
#

Well that's how it is in real life

#

Javelins deal a lot of damage in real life you idiot

#

Think for a second

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Game is focused around realism

#

Oh am I wrong?

#

Wat

kind parrot
#

Archer's bandage should be a little bowl of easy-mac n' cheese, since they are all so adorable.

fallow fulcrum
#

game is decently far from realism

daring venture
#

But something's aren't

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For example javelins

fickle ruin
#

idk man

#

I feel like the whole slasher genre is pretty unrealistic

daring venture
#

Ik, but still javelins are ok

candid cipher
icy frost
# daring venture Game is focused around realism

I wouldnt say realistic but instead 'grounded'. None of the features, mechanics or designs is supposed to be otherworldly. But it also is not realistic to be shooting friends out of a catapult and expecting them to survive, immortal flaming chickens, or being able to block ballista shots with your shield

#

Trying to balance a game by restricting them to real life will more likely than not to make things unbalanced.

In real war all of those things are made and used to get as mucb of an edge as you can over the enemy, balance was of no concern lol

daring venture
#

There is a difference between realism and thing they add for fun

#

You can throw people in catapults just because it's fun

#

You can block a ballista shoot with a shield because makes it balanced

#

Javelins aren't op

#

They are fine

icy frost
#

Not very tied to realism but it is a fun and good feature.

daring venture
#

And if javelins were nerfed it would ruin immersion

#

That's why realism is important in this game, to make it immersive

icy frost
#

Immersion in what sense

daring venture
#

So you can feel like you're in a battle

icy frost
#

I mean for javs

daring venture
#

And that If a javelin hits you it deals damage

#

Like serious damage

icy frost
#

Yeah it still gives that feel pretty well.