Javelins are the most frustrating thing in the game

[violet drum]

Splintered weapon feature solution? 😄

[worthy grove]

1,000 messages

[fathom yarrow]

Projectile flinch needs removal and should be tested with removal

[elder anvil]

Yeah I could definitely make it work, I’m going way more causal focused anyway tbh. And between all the feedback there’s definitely ways to fix up javelin a little

It’s the ever present identity crisis of chivalry

[plucky forum]

I would not accept this unless you buffed the class in another regard, but I can agree with the change in that case

[dense forge]

Not to mention that it rewards countering, I'd imagine counters wouldn't make the effective HP of the weapon decrease

[elder anvil]

Is it casual or competitive

[dense forge]

Quiver is pretty lame though

[grizzled zealot]

I like to think the quiver is just a can of pringles

[plucky forum]

Make it not lame. I'll suggest some buffs in another thread maybe later today or tomorrow

For now I'll stick to Javelins

[dense forge]

Yep

Any more consensuses we got to so we can ask the nice dev to pin it?

[elder anvil]

I liked your suggestion for quiver from the other day about not limiting movement

[plucky forum]

Don't worry I'll get it all out officially in a thread

[elder anvil]

But someone should try to recap all the possible fixes/changes to javelin for the devs so they can try different things, and I gotta work rn so it’s not gonna be me

[plucky forum]

Generally I feel Skirmisher is in a healthy state and disagree with most of the changes suggested. But some things that should be implemented right now are:

• Nerf Javelin capacity on non-Skirmishers
• Remove flinch on VIP

[dense forge]

Look at the pinned posts

[fathom yarrow]

Oh no, this is an entire mechanical change

I dont mean exclusively for javelins

Axes, Polearms, everything except like

shields and the pickup items on a map

like barrels and boxes and stuff

[spice finch]

Javs suck but what about Ambusher jab feint spam

My god it’s even worse

[plucky forum]

Hard for me to agree because it's so integral to how we play now

But yeah if you wanted to put it on a test server I wouldn't complain

[dense forge]

That should be for another thread

[fathom yarrow]

Gross but you can play it safe and widdle down their shield, but that wont help when you are infront of their spawn and a spawn-wave is incoming in the next 10 seconds.

My "widdle down" works in a bubble, not in practical TO gameplay.

[spice finch]

Oh I don’t disagree there are counters too it, but it’s horrendous to play against someone jab spamming with quick accells

Like ruins the game completely lmao

[fathom yarrow]

Javelins seem to do that.

[spice finch]

Both are a problem

I think they should remove flinches from any throwable in the game, aswell as jabs completely, keep kicks

[fathom yarrow]

Jabs are important and just need tuning.

They are being tuned in the next update so we can go from there.

[spice finch]

Don’t disagree

The way they are used right now makes me hate the game sometime

[fathom yarrow]

Jab to miss getting nerfed and one-handed jabs are being nerfed as well

they can be a bit oppressive but you can play around them, not saying its easy though

[spice finch]

I just miss melee games where it isn’t just getting jab spammed the entire time

Even if I play around them it’s not fun to play against

Messes with the flow of the fight way too much

[fathom yarrow]

This is a bit offtopic so this will be my last response in this thread (we can go to another channel or even DMs) but I quite enjoy the "scrappy" nature of it, it just needs more solid counters and/or nerfs.

[spice finch]

I think they should cost a hell of a lot more Stam then they do now

[fathom yarrow]

This game was made for TO and team fights, not duels, and jabs in those are quite scrappy and add to the panic, adrenaline and chaos.

[jolly sun]

idk what been said here so imma just post this

https://tenor.com/view/weird-cat-dance-gif-5840303

[spice finch]

Yea I’m mostly talking duels, it’s ruining the meta, jabs in TO don’t bother me at all

[elder anvil]

That peasant guy wanted something similar, just had no clue how to articulate it and lost his mind

[frosty gulch]

Jabs 👍 javs 😡

[plucky forum]

how are they getting nerfed?

[rustic meteor]

Hitboxes probably

[fickle ruin]

Skirmisher is the weakest and more situationally inflexible class in the game

If javelins are too powerful I'm all for some kind of balancing, but the class needs a large rework in general.

[spice finch]

I was talking about jabs lol

[fickle ruin]

yeah I just noticed lmao

[pale swift]

you guys really went at it

[mystic coral]

Daym

Honestly I die to javelins on average less than once per game

[lofty sky]

Fuck jabs and fuck javelins and fuck javs

[solemn ferry]

Just fix ghost throws

[whole charm]

same, especially since, in my experience, there would be like 1 jav user at most per team on a full server that has archer class limit reached

[lethal atlas]

when I said the exact same thing you said the game is "too defensive" and basically "just hold block bro"

it's only a matter of time before people always acknowledge i'm right

[normal venture]

👀

https://tenor.com/view/wonder-woman-lynda-carter-gif-13902389

GO YARD !!!

[fathom yarrow]

I think you are generalizing or thats out of context because ive always thought projectiles smell.

[lethal atlas]

the biggest issue is the huge disparity between low and high ping players

[lethal atlas]

javelins can be played at almost any ping interval, so no matter what they cannot be nerfed

otherwise other issues will aggravate

[digital robin]

Jav guardian is dope though

[plucky forum]

🤢

[digital robin]

Don't sickface me 😠

It is aesthetically pleasing

[rustic meteor]

At that point just use a spear

[lucid kiln]

I counter them out of the air all the time, it's the thing I die the least to.

I do think this is just placing blame on archers (again) just because there's one popular weapon, that's only popular because the last good archer weapon was nerfed

No one was complaining about javelins until every archer was using javelins

[robust stratus]

Javs aren't a problem to the majority of people, they easier to counter than Archers (Holding block negating 100% of damage), have far less range, less ammo and expose themselves.

This is just a melee main trying to make the game easier when he tunnel visions

[lucid kiln]

Even some of the arguments in this thread like "oh the shield negates stamina loss" ignores that actually using the shield results in it breaking in like 6 seconds if you slam it. Also that Jav archer is actually not good in melee with javelin, it's a mediocre weapon.

[robust stratus]

Yup a gimmick weapon that like all gimmick weapons if people don't counter will do well against New players. Which is what his gameplay shows. But let's not use common sense

[lucid kiln]

Also the fact that you can throw a weapon faster than an archer can throw his jav, meaning you always have an option to interrupt. any damage stops javs from being thrown.

[lucid kiln]

I've definitely noticed the people complaining loudest about archers also like to main big, huge weapons that make them massive target signs

And don't use shields, ever.

[robust stratus]

You can't make a person pick common sense or a counter.

They usually fall back to the "it isn't fun" or "annoying to play against". The classic appeal to emotion fallacy.

But talk about the Highland or something in Melee getting fixed and they will say it's easy and fine to counter.

Same flowchart every time you see these post

[vernal oyster]

That's the great thing about this game - nothing is actually unlockable or impossible to deal with. You just have to be willing and able to use the tools the game gives you

[lucid kiln]

Yeah I don't get the annoyance. It's pretty easy in crowd fights to suddenly get ambushed by one guy with a greatsword who suddenly deals 100 damage, and that's fine because "he had to get close" but the archer also had to wind up their throw for 3 seconds, which would be the same amount of time a melee fighter at "typical jav distance" would need to run to reach you

I've seriously stabbed three people to death in a row as ambusher before they realized what was happening, it's not like footsteps are loud.

(And sounds get muffled by other sounds due to the sound engine all the time!)

[vernal oyster]

I love coming upon HS users in casual TO because they're usually very unused to people knowing how to deal with their attacks

[robust stratus]

Yup, you 100% start with the tools to counter every class.

The majority of players like OP just want the game to cater to their Hero complex instead of working on awareness, game IQ or simple counter play.

[lucid kiln]

Plus archers are rare, they're easy to notice in a crowd. How do you even "not notice the jav guy"

It's the ONE GUY standing behind his teammates!

[lucid kiln]

Then you fight some guy desyncing in duels from wifi lag and it's like "oh god this is impossible"

[robust stratus]

That's another big argument in here is a guy saying he died while 1vX and couldn't deal with being flanked..... No awareness or acknowledging of themselves being overextended. No they want a nerf.

[lucid kiln]

I mean, yeah, if you get so surrounded you can get flanked easily, that means if that archer was melee you probably would have still died

That being said I've seen Ziggy kill 7-8 people at once, but it's really hard to consistently pull that off

And requires the right kind of weapon

Anyway all these "lets move the goalpost to the next most popular archer weapon" threads are going to actually tank the class and I think that's really the main goal of all of these

[robust stratus]

It's always new people though, so he is fighting people who don't know how to counter while being the person calling for nerfs on something he won't learn to counter

Same tired flow chart

[lucid kiln]

I doubt ziggy "can't" deal with it, he just doesn't like getting hit by shit he doesn't see coming

Which is awareness imo.

I rarely get picked off by archers

I have videos of me killing 4-5 archers at once

With a dagger, mind you

[robust stratus]

He can deal with it by changing classes, he choses not to and rages then post here.

[fossil sail]

I haven't much opinion in TO, but want to address some of the points

1. "Throw around it" is ambiguous, not a good reason. With that logic, any weapon throw is a threat.
2. It at least isn't blunt, which is a major current factor for stamina loss.
3. Situational awareness is something present for every aspect of the game outside of active parry saving lives.
4. Literal Skill issue. Some people use muscle memory, but in most cases, a thrown Jav can be adequately countered in the air. Tap block, then counter once they release. Get stam back and you move forward quicker.

Projectile flinch feels fair, especially with their massive recovery period between throws. You even Regen some stamina before their next throw is even possible.

You SHOULD have all eyes on the battlefield at all times. Tunnel vision-ing only the melee combat in front of you (aka: the fog of war) is what gets people shot.

Spawn wave and archer protection from desertion zones isn't a javelin-only issue, so I don't wanna talk about that without more familiarity in TO maps

[buoyant badge]

you also get a secondary melee weapon better than what ambusher gets on javelin archer which is questionable

[fathom yarrow]

I dont tunnel vision. In nearly all cases, im aware of the javelin archer but that still doesnt mean I can do anything about it. Despite the bait of an archer main saying im overextending, more often than not im just doing something and a javelin from a few miles away finds its way to me, even if I was aware of the jav archer its still absurd to assume it would get me. This is on top of the aspect of trying to defend yourself from an attack that doesnt hit you. A jav archer is going to throw highland sword overheads at me while im in a 1vX, usually out of range to target switch. During this, I could just "be aware" and "dont tunnel vision" but then the jav archer misses, so I miss my counter, then get punished for it. Should I have just guessed theyd miss? Should I have sacrificed all my stam instead?

[fossil sail]

If that is the case and you don't tunnel vision, then your point 3 is a non-issue

But yeah, I've intentionally missed throwing knives to make people waste stamina. I think it's a fun tactic when intended.

[fathom yarrow]

I disagree. Just because im aware of my surroundings and not tunnel-visioned does not mean every single javelin user is spottable. In some cases in some rare parts of a map, a jav can be thrown straight down and you cant look up high enough to see them or defend yourself. This is, again, rare but im still bringing it up. Being "aware" isnt the same thing as being all knowing.

[fathom yarrow]

In this case, its more effective with javelins unless the person is okay with just rolling the dice that you'll miss them with an 85+ damage attack that stuns and drains a ton of stamina.

By nature of you being able to throw from psuedo-any distance, intentional missing is in many ways better than with a melee weapon.

And since archer is actually easier than every other class to be effective, you can just throw at people and if/when you miss, its now a "mixup" where you missed on purpose and punish them for trying to defend themselves.

This is, again, on top of everything else ive talked about for the weapon. This is just simply another bullet point on a large list of bullet points and even if you could try and nitpick it with "yeah well you could do this or that", its really not feasible and doesnt really affect the overall standing of javelins as frustrating, easy to play and being over-punishing, unfair and unfun.

[frosty gulch]

Guy who one* shots man from further away ok with man one shotting others from close to medium range

[mystic coral]

ngl sounds like a skill issue

[dense forge]

If the argument "Just block/counter it" was any good then no weapons could be unbalanced. No matter what it does you can always say "Just block it".

[wraith light]

Because blocking the Javelin is easy as sin

[dense forge]

And blocking a sword isn't?

[wraith light]

It is, its your fault if you're getting hit

[dense forge]

Alright. Then my point stands. No weapon could be unbalanced

[wraith light]

But are you not protesting javs?

[dense forge]

Hm?

I'm saying that just because you can block a javelin that doesn't mean it's fine

[wraith light]

It is though. If you get flanked by a skirmisher or you turn your back to one, the 85 damage is earned

Also, what would you fix about it then?

[dense forge]

But what if they just throw javelins into the crowd and you have no reasonable way of knowing it will hit you, let alone that someone threw it

[dense forge]

Look at some of the pinned posts. This discussion has been going on for a while

#1020168177247862847 message

Some of my points

[wraith light]

Sucks to suck. If a stray bullet hits me, is the gun op? Or was I in the wrong place, wrong time?

[dense forge]

Does said bullet either completely one shot you or nuke you while you have no way of fighting back?

[wraith light]

Would you prefer it take 3/5 javelins to kill someone?

Its a spear going through you. Its going to do more than an arrow or bolt

[dense forge]

I would prefer that it didn't do 133 damage on a headshot given how safe and simple it is to use

[wraith light]

Safe and simple? if you block it. I still have recovery that you can hit me during. And it has to be used at close to mid range, putting the skirmisher on the edge of the fight

You can*

[dense forge]

It's safe and simple yes. You sit in the back and throw stuff into the crowd or at people who are fighting. Nobody is saying that if I'm sitting still, and the skirmisher is sitting still, that it's impossible to deal with it

#1020168177247862847 message

[fossil sail]

Dunno about that. The sheer rate that I can throw throwing knives compared to jav is pretty relevant. Can double back if they do go for a counter with slower weapons and punish with a second throw before their recovery.

Some duelers will intentionally hit the ground when countering thrown items for that reason, gets a quicker reset

[wraith light]

So if I throw a random javelin into a crowd, its my fault and javelin needs to be nerfed because you got unlucky?

[dense forge]

That's just the thing, I couldn't do anything about it - unlucky. You threw something into a crowd of people and I got hit by it and instantly died. I couldn't see you and I was already busy fighting people and doing the objective while you were sitting behind your whole team, away from any danger. Do you see that the risk to reward ratio doesn't add up?

[mystic coral]

That must be why javelin players are always top scoring with no deaths

[wraith light]

You're literally saying that because you randomly got hit, that weapon needs to be nerfed. Which makes zero sense

[dense forge]

No

I am saying that I instantly died to it with no way of doing anything to prevent it or foresee it

You are missing the part where you sit in the back with your entire team in between you and I, you are away from all danger

[wraith light]

Because you're in the middle of a battle. You're not gonna be able to control every little circumstance. If anything it sounds like you have protag issues

[dense forge]

And why does it oneshot vanguards then?

[fossil sail]

I might be wrong, isn't vanguard hp 140?

[dense forge]

Getting hit by something that I can't do anything about shouldn't do so much damage

[dense forge]

No, 130

[fossil sail]

Or is it 135

Oh, okie

[dense forge]

And why can every class resupply all 5?

[wraith light]

Because it went through their head. Which most of the time means the Skirmisher got a well placed shot.

Jav does 85 damage on bodyshots

[dense forge]

Again, do you see that being able to nuke somebody from a safe distance while they can't do anything about it isn't good?

[dense forge]

I never mentioned body shots

[wraith light]

Actually its pretty good, because if you're getting flanked or hit in the head, you were gonna get schwacked to begin with. May I suggest not rushing in?

[dense forge]

It's a crowd of people, there is no rushing in. If I got flanked by someone I can hear their footsteps, I can hear them yelling while they wind up their attack, they are putting themselves at risk by flanking a bunch of people

[wraith light]

Also. You wanna nerf bows and crossbows, since they can nuke your precious vanguard too? What about throwing axes?

[dense forge]

And there are two weapons that can deal over 130 damage in melee, they are both high risk special attacks and are also blunt

[frosty gulch]

Javelins so good throwing axes are a joke

[dense forge]

I did not mention either of those. Whataboutism has no place here

[frosty gulch]

Melee is way easier with a spear than a hatchet you have to face hug

[dense forge]

Again, why can it oneshot vanguards and why can you restock all 5 on every other class?

[plucky forum]

I agree with making it so you can't restock 5 on other classes but I don't agree with nerfing them

also other classes cannot one shot vanguards with them

only skirmisher can

[dense forge]

I only want to nerf the headshot damage

[wraith light]

But its relative. Because a single bow shot to the body does 67 damage. I can two-shot you with a regular bow. But heaven forbid I nail you in the skull with a spear while you're not looking

[plucky forum]

I disagree with that

[frosty gulch]

Ambusher headshot bonus doesn’t apply?

[mystic coral]

ambusher only for native weapons no?

[wraith light]

What ultimate will the skirmisher get then?

[plucky forum]

I don't understand the question

[wraith light]

Like will his re-stock ability be replaced?

[frosty gulch]

Backstab yes but throwables headshot I think ambusher gets headshot bonus with anything

[plucky forum]

Nah it's not needed. Quiver is fine

[mystic coral]

quiver sucks

[plucky forum]

it does suck, but that's ok. It doesn't need to be good. Just a little better, but that's all

[wraith light]

I can live with that. But would you replace his trait that lets him regain quiver more with headshots?

[mystic coral]

by the time you reload you could've gone to an ammo box already

[dense forge]

You are failing to recognize the point of view of the opponent. He immediately died and couldn't do anything about it or know that it was coming

[plucky forum]

I don't understand the question

[plucky forum]

I agree. I suggested changes to improve this here https://discord.com/channels/209841695850889226/1020438551118233661

[wraith light]

Awesome, half the time you don't see a killing shot from a bow. Is that horrible? You're not gonna be able to control everything man. You're gonna randomly die.

[plucky forum]

I see no issue with this other than it is annoying. But that isn't a big deal to me

[dense forge]

Bows don't oneshot anyone

[plucky forum]

They one shot skirmishers

lol

[dense forge]

But why does it need that aspect?

[wraith light]

Skirmisher has a trait that lets him regen his quiver ability more quickly with headshot damage

[plucky forum]

to reward you for landing a headshot

[plucky forum]

yeah that's fine

[dense forge]

A oneshot? Really?

[plucky forum]

yeah

[mystic coral]

javelin at least can be predicted and blocked too

[dense forge]

Alright then, agree to disagree

[plucky forum]

nothing wrong with taht

[wraith light]

No but if you're low enough health, you can get picked off out of nowhere

[plucky forum]

they also one shot Skirmishers

[dense forge]

I am talking about full health oneshots

Not talking about bows

[wraith light]

Perfectly fine by me

[frosty gulch]

Siege weapon type damage

[plucky forum]

Skirmisher gets full health oneshot by Bows, War Bows, Crossbows, Greatswords, Mauls, Messers, etc. etc.

[frosty gulch]

For throwing a stick

[plucky forum]

seems fair to me

[wraith light]

Can't warbows oneshot vanguards off of headshots?

[plucky forum]

oh and also javelins

[fossil sail]

I one shot a skirmisher once by looking at him with a particularly mean glare.

[plucky forum]

even Throwing Axes one shot Skirmishers 😅

[dense forge]

They get oneshot by other archers because nobody else can deal with them. As for the rest - they get oneshot by those because they are always in the back in safety

[dense forge]

No

[mystic coral]

the balance of vanguard is low health and high mobility with the highest damage weapons

[plucky forum]

I'm not complaining. I'm trying to show how there is a balance to it. Skirmisher is not an unbalanced class and it is nowhere near the more powerful options in the subclass meta. That's why I don't agree with nerfing it

[fossil sail]

The throwing axe being able to 1 shot skirmishers was pretty relevant imo

[plucky forum]

One shots on Vanguard may be annoying, but that doesn't make the class more powerful

more powerful than other strong subclasses*

[wraith light]

Regardless you complained about getting killed or nuked out of nowhere. The warbow can put you on the backfoot out of nowhere, is that bad too?

[fossil sail]

1 shotting players? Better nerf maul.

[plucky forum]

lmao

[dense forge]

I'm not getting anywhere with this. I just want the thing to do 125 damage on heatshots and to not be able be picked up on anyone

[plucky forum]

but why?

just because it is annoying?

I don't agree

[frosty gulch]

Maul special at least has a chance to down a player

[wraith light]

Protagonist syndrome

[plucky forum]

it isn't more powerful than your other options. It isn't even the most powerful Archer option

[dense forge]

Ah yes, protagonist syndrome

[fossil sail]

Given how strong of a class vanguard is, I'm kind of happy there's a 1 shot option on the table

[plucky forum]

It's just a subclass with an annoying quirk, the ability to oneshot headshot a vanguard

not that big of a deal at all

[fossil sail]

and that's not even a completely guaranteed 1 shot option with warhorns

[plucky forum]

that too

also play more 40p instead of 64p. You won't get hit by as many things you weren't paying attention to

[mystic coral]

half the time they are throwing it into the backs of their teamates

[plucky forum]

lmao

[wraith light]

Also skirmisher gets most of his jav hits when his opponents aren't looking. So there is that too

[plucky forum]

yeah I've used Skirmisher in both casual and competitive play. In casual play it's ok (very fun though) and in competitive it's absolutely terrible

[dense forge]

I am getting nowhere in this conversation. I just want this thing to have 4 less headshot damage and people are treating it like I want the class gutted or removed

[plucky forum]

that's fine but I'm saying the reasoning is flawed

[fossil sail]

mathematically this means my javelins are doing a solid 66.5 damage per headshot, as long as I include the negative damage from hitting teammates xD

[plucky forum]

if there are better options, why not nerf those?

why nerf the weaker subclass to make him weaker

[frosty gulch]

No one is going to play this game if it continues to be a projectile hell

[mystic coral]

that's not even including missed shots

[wraith light]

They already nerfed crossbow and longbows, quit crying

[plucky forum]

that's why there's an archer limit

[fossil sail]

You know for a fact that hits to kill is a relevant metric. It's not "just 4 damage" it's "1 more shot to kill" It could be 40 less damage and it'd still be "1 more shot to kill"

[frosty gulch]

Arrows don’t even do takedowns

[mystic coral]

one vanguard flanking the enemy is enough to wipe all the enemy archers

[wraith light]

As they shouldn't

[frosty gulch]

And archer limits are (soft)

[plucky forum]

in 64p (the bad TO)

[mystic coral]

L take

[dense forge]

The one that everybody plays

[wraith light]

You'd prefer 2 archers a game huh?

[plucky forum]

hey guys if you want to lower the archer limit I won't complain

I would agree completely

[frosty gulch]

Also I’m pretty sure shuffle isn’t affected by the class limit

[plucky forum]

but if you don't lower it that doesn't make skirmisher stronger lol

[dense forge]

This is what I'm talking about, everyone jumps to the most extreme example. The person was talking about how anybody can pick up a javelin or a bow

[plucky forum]

yeah I don't like this. The Javelins should be significantly nerfed in non-skirmisher hands

but I don't agree with nerfing it in skirmisher hands at all

[wraith light]

No-one besides archers should be able to use archer weapons

[frosty gulch]

Actually prefer custom servers for archer free ffa, maybe one day

[dense forge]

At the end of the day most people agree that not all classes should be able to restock all the javelins. If we get out of this conversation with that conclusion that's just fine by me

[wraith light]

Archers restocking is fine. Other classes restocking archer weapons, nah

[frosty gulch]

Ambusher buff isn’t going to probably just apply to ambusher weapons next update

[plucky forum]

that sounds hilarious

[wraith light]

Well skirmisher doesn't carry any of Ambusher's weapons soooo

[frosty gulch]

I’m saying ambushers next update won’t have takedowns, they get quiver and can restock javelins with it

The balance is off because the dmg is so high and there’s no reason to not pick up javelins and toss them

[wraith light]

Ngl as a skirmisher I prefer throwing axes

[frosty gulch]

Don’t know why when spear special is so good

[plucky forum]

it's a fun unique playstyle and it is more varied gameplay compared to javelins

with javelins there's no reason to use your secondary, most of the time. but with throwing axes you keep switching back and forth and it feels dope

that's why I hope they buff Throwing axes on Skirmisher

[frosty gulch]

Secondaries are ridiculous as well a falchion or 1h axe and a bear trap ridiculous

[plucky forum]

yeah it's a dope subclass in general

wish they gave him just one more throwing axe though

no point in using them as they currently are

[frosty gulch]

You’d need 10 throwing axes to compete with javelins

[plucky forum]

yeah but I'd be fine with 7 lol

currently it's 6

and that's just ONE more than javelins

kinda pathetic

[frosty gulch]

Yeah I know

[plucky forum]

I guess the benefit of using them is that when you die the enemy won't pick them up 😂

[vale tundra]

yeah you don't feed the enemy team javelins if you use throwing axes

[plucky forum]

lmaooo

fax

[frosty gulch]

That’s why I say 10 because melee with javelin is way easier that melee with a hatchet

[plucky forum]

10 may be overkill. like they don't need to be equal or better than javelins

just not as abysmal as they are now

[plucky forum]

it's so much worse than hatchet lol

hatchet you can two shot classes

[fossil sail]

throwing axe =/= hatchet tho..

[plucky forum]

and no hitstop

throwing axe does such terrible damage and has hitstop

and the range 😐

[fossil sail]

hitstop be kinda nice in 1v1 fights at least

[plucky forum]

that's why I said the gameplay is interesting. you gotta keep using your secondary

[plucky forum]

yeah but I find myself using my secondary more

[fossil sail]

Tbh they should put a 2 player limit on all melee classes. Let the majority be archer. Then it's obviously fair

[frosty gulch]

Jab with the 20 dmg shield and stab don’t see how hatchet melee is easier

Or spear special

[vale tundra]

if everybody is an archer, then no one is (???)

[plucky forum]

I meant hatchet is easier than throwing axes

[fossil sail]

Vanguard has a quiver of 2 dane axes, just saying

[wraith light]

Well for me I go head hunting on knights because I like watching their heads pop off when I get a headshot

[plucky forum]

it makes picking up the throwing axes annoying 😔

[vale tundra]

yeah and that's also fucked up

[plucky forum]

because I end up just picking up a head

[vale tundra]

damn throwing dane axes, but that's also a topic for another feedback thread

[wraith light]

Yes but it looks so cool. Just plunk

[lucid kiln]

No. Because headshots are rare and extremely difficult with jav. Also as a vanguard main, vanguards need at least one thing that can instakill them. They're supposed to be the glass cannon class. Note "glass". I think we get it way too easy already.

[lucid kiln]

Eh you do have to repick up all your gear. It isn't fluid. I don't do it because I'd do more harm just sticking with my classes playstyle rather than pretending I'm an archer.

[fathom yarrow]

I completely disagree, I get plenty of headshots, some intentionally and some just "lmao sucks to be that guy" because he got unlucky. Vanguard isnt a glass cannon because one weapon on an overpowered/overprivileged class (if you prefer) can oneshot a vanguard.

If you want to make Vanguard a glass cannon, you can do that, but having javelins be the one oneshotting thing for them is not them being a glass cannon.

Also I made a post about damage bonuses and stuff where you can see how not-glass cannon vanguards are.
https://discord.com/channels/209841695850889226/1020921939692376094

[viscid cradle]

They have soft squishy skulls that bounce blunt weapons but are easily penetrated

[robust stratus]

Skirmishers / Vanguards are a perfect example of Glass Cannon, The only class that encompasses that better is the Warbow.
They are both extremely easy to deal with if you play to counter them which this community doesn't appear to understand as this post shows.

[lucid kiln]

They're also the only class that can be two hit killed by nearly every weapon in the game that isn't an archer. They lack shields because shields make you tankier.

Including dagger, which is a fucking dagger btw lol so they get two hit killed by a toothpick

Knights need to be fighting beefy weapons typically, vanguards like "omg I just died in two strikes from a rapier"

[lucid kiln]

Heavy overheads from two handed hammer deal 60% of a vanguards health

Lights around 35%

[viscid cradle]

Maul speshel

[lucid kiln]

95% isn't low damage

[viscid cradle]

It’s not 100%

It’s double the amount of hits required than knight

[lucid kiln]

Yeah and knights weaker to blunt. They're still fucking squishy

They don't need to be equally squishy to everything, knight also doesn't die in two lights from GS but vanguard does

What makes vanguard squishy is they literally have a lower hp bar and most blunts deal 50 or higher on their main attacks

And unlike knights, they can't wield shields to tank until a teammate heals them or self heal twice unless they're specifically raider, and it takes longer for raider to generate heals

One thing to consider is knight dies in two heavies to 2hh or three lights, and it's the exact same for vanguard if you explicitly try to land the highest damage attacks. The only difference is how many combo routes result in a kill on a full health target. @viscid cradle

But what do I know, I only main knight guardian and ambusher/raider and notice I survive way longer on the knight

(I do think knight needs a buff on overheal, it's stupid teammates can remove it via team damage)

[viscid cradle]

Oh yeah the knight does have more durability

I get really confused by the people who say the knight is less tanky than vanguard

It’s like

Wot?

I honestly don’t believe the people who say that even play TO

Longsword or messer mains in duels

And they’re knight messers instead of vanguard messers

If knights so weak why are you taking messer on knight when you can pick it on vanguard

[lofty sky]

Knight has better drip

But the movement speed and dodge slowness makes knight weaker

[lucid kiln]

Especially when countering is so powerful you can 1 v 1 for like 1 minute and barely see either opponent land a hit, yet I'm expected to believe a high level knight is just taking hits all the time

[plucky forum]

ey man I agree with you to not nerf Skirmisher but nearly every class in the game can be two hit killed by basically an equal amount of weapons

so like for example the Dagger two shots the Vanguard, but the Hatchet two shots the Footman. The Sword two shots the Vanguard, but the Mace two shots the Knight.

[lucid kiln]

Yeah, I'm also of the opinion GS/HS shouldn't be able to do that, but also, Vanguard is vulnerable to swords/spear. Like, knight can't die in two hits from a spear, longsword, messer, one handed sword, short sword, dagger, knife, hatchet, spear, one handed spear, javelins in melee, glaive, I believe (from the front) but vanguard can. That's quite a lot of meta weapons (and not meta with glaive)

[robust stratus]

Could always live in fear of being one shot by everything playing Warbow even with that fear , I am not advocating for Javs to be nerfed even if they 1 shot me.

[lucid kiln]

I just named 12 weapons that can kill a vanguard in two hits btw

Weapons that do 60 damage, if you jab immediately on the last hit, you'll combo to 70 damage

[plucky forum]

not only do I not advocate for Javelins to be nerfed but I advocate for Throwing Axes to be buffed

(just the carry capacity)

[robust stratus]

Throwing Axes need something, I honestly just leave them alone if I see them lol. They have enough going against them I don't need to add an Arrow to it.

[lucid kiln]

Fuck ok I'm going to do a count later and see if that's accurate, but that's a very good point. Dave, this forum system on discord is amazing

ACTUAL DISCUSSIONS? LARGE POSTS THAT DESCRIBE IN DETAIL ISSUES WRITTEN BY ZIGGYLATA?

[plucky forum]

yessir

[lucid kiln]

They need to be more like throwing knives where when you throw one, you VERY QUICKLY reload, because atm you throw one and you're ridiculously vulnerable during the reload time

[remote lark]

I feel like to make the throwing axes a bit better is to implement it where you can run and throw with it unlike the javelin

[lucid kiln]

You can run and throw with both though?

[remote lark]

Yeah but it slows you down

[lucid kiln]

Oh, ok, yeah

[remote lark]

No movement penalty

[lucid kiln]

I think throwing axes also need to be closer to hatchet range

[remote lark]

Because rn the throwing axes have the most crazy arc when thrown it’s like you have to be really close to really be accurate

[robust stratus]

The best Throwing Axe class is currently double Dane and that is wild.

[remote lark]

Lmao

[plucky forum]

Like I said I don't think they need a buff at all in any other aspect other than capacity

[remote lark]

Or you could just make it where the throwing axes can be duel wielded like the throwing knife

[robust stratus]

Being able to throw 2 at once would be pretty cool and make the reload as long as the Crossbow

[plucky forum]

can't do that because they have to function similarly to other classes' throwing axes

just give me 7 or 8 that's fine

that way you eliminate any argument or discussion on balance and stuff

[robust stratus]

Also the Flourish with the throwing Axe should be throwing it up and catching it

[plucky forum]

that'd be dope

just want them to be not absolutely dogwash

don't even need them to be as good as javelins

[remote lark]

Mhm

[plucky forum]

I don't think you could even if you tried

but that's ok

[remote lark]

I’ve never seen somebody use throwing axes as skirmishes

[plucky forum]

only me for the challenge lmao

I see them every now and then

but like it's the least common loadout I've ever seen

[robust stratus]

I am willing to bet it is bottom 5 picked in the game

[plucky forum]

they should have stats on it so maybe they plan on improving them. The latest change to Ambusher makes me think their philosophy is:

subclass has low pick rate > buff subclass > new subclass has low pickrate > buff new subclass

[lucid kiln]

I think they also noticed that ambushers playstyle has kind of evolved to hit and run

....maybe.

Like, the idea is you take one guy out and start RUNNIN'

And that's a lot harder if they get a takedown instead of dying

Because now you have to throw out another attack or they get back up.

[remote lark]

Thing with playing as ambusher is that most of the time people aren’t by themselves so it’s very hard to earn the bonus from the back

[rustic meteor]

You're talking about special attacks right

[lucid kiln]

I've kind of mastered it at this point, at least 200 hours or more on ambusher

[lucid kiln]

Heavy attacks are 70 damage for dagger, so two of them = 140 damage. Hatchet does 82 on a heavy to man at arms, so if you heavy then light, that's 82 + 64 then they die.

....ok they usually die lol

[rustic meteor]

The mace doesn't 2 shot Knight, but heavy mace does

[lucid kiln]

Doesn't mace do 90 damage on heavy overheads to knight?

[rustic meteor]

Lemme find out

[lucid kiln]

Not that landing two heavies in a row is easy with weapons that aren't lightning fast dagger speed

[rustic meteor]

My search is inconclusive but im just gonna say sure

Also I forgot the overhead existed

[lucid kiln]

If you aren't using it, you definitely should, blunt overheads are BRUTAL

Some of the fastest combo times

Like, grab a 2hh and crouch accel overheads, it's nuts

[rustic meteor]

I use it

I just forgot in this immediate moment that it exists

[remote lark]

Heavy overhead from the back with a hatchet as ambusher is juicy

[lucid kiln]

The LIGHTS do 105 it's so brutal lol

[rustic meteor]

Is backstab on every class or just ambusher

[lucid kiln]

Just ambusher and they can only get the bonus with weapons they can start with (except throwing knives). Ambusher also does more headshot damage with throwing knives than Knight Officer

[rustic meteor]

👍

[lucid kiln]

Dagger does 150 damage on a q attack to the back if you didn't know lol

[rustic meteor]

I thought it did that much in general

I'm not joking

That things special is fucked

[lucid kiln]

Pretty close, the Q attack is 100 damage

50% backstab bonus on any attack to the back

[rustic meteor]

Falchion special damage?

[lucid kiln]

WAY LESS

[rustic meteor]

Oof

[lucid kiln]

But Falchions way better at fighting more than one opponent

Dagger is one of the only weapons in the game that can't cleave. Even blunts can cleave on heavies.

[rustic meteor]

Throwing axe kek

I have more melee kills with throwing axe than throwing kills

It's so easy to gamble with

[lucid kiln]

My main wep/class combos are: Glaive/Messer Raider, Dagger/hatchet Ambusher, battle axe + falchion Crusader Knight, and Guardian Falchion

[rustic meteor]

If it's an option, I will always bring a mace

[lucid kiln]

Try hatchet out! Hatchet is NASTY.

[rustic meteor]

What's the advantage of hatchet over axe

[lucid kiln]

Hatchet does 5 more base damage on slashes, 15 more damage on overhead, meaning 40 damage on slash vs 35 and 55 damage on a light overhead vs the 40 on throwing axe, and this is all before damage bonuses. Hatchet can two shot a vanguard from the front with heavy overheads

So overall it does waaaaaaaaaay more stamina damage

[rustic meteor]

However it's shorter, right

[lucid kiln]

Hatchet can be equipped on ambusher so you have 62 damage headshot throwing knives combined with this

[lucid kiln]

It's a tiny bit longer

Except on overheads

[rustic meteor]

Wuh

Anyway I stay strapped with a mace

[lucid kiln]

Attacks have different range, probably something to do with animation

[rustic meteor]

Oh hey by the way the 2HH animations are broken

I'll make a bug report

[lucid kiln]

Polearms in general too, which I think it shares the animation set of

[rustic meteor]

I should say, they can be broken

But I'm not saying they're OP

[lucid kiln]

Fuck I used to know one way to guaranteed break a glaives animations

[rustic meteor]

I mean the animations literally don't work sometimes

[lucid kiln]

OH

[rustic meteor]

Worse than Highland desync

Gotta get the clip

[robust stratus]

You can exploit Archer desysnc to shoot with no animation on any of them. It just shoots out of the chest.

It's pretty lame

[thorn pumice]

I just want to jump in and say I agree with Ziggy on the need to tone down javelins. I believe there are only 2 things in the game that can 1 shot someone (Maul special and javelin head shot) and they are not even comparable in terms of toxicity. I also think the flinching effect of a ranged weapon is over-the-top, especially for a weapon that does some of the most damage in the game.

And before someone jumps in with the "realism" aspect, consider the fact that you can survive a great sword stab through the face 3-4 times. Realism cannot be a factor in balancing.

[plucky forum]

I disagree because skirmishers consistently underperform compared to other subclasses

I don't see a point in nerfing it if there's tons of other aspects of the gameplay that outperforms it

[lucid kiln]

What about the over the top hitstun of a melee weapon that does 55 damage to four targets at once? I don't get the argument.

You can do 220 damage to four people in one swing with a melee weapon, then follow that with another swing, while a jav can do 80 damage or instakill every like, 5 seconds.

The damage per second on melee is dramatically higher.

And when blocked, you're punished less in melee because stamina draining is an actual strat, whereas jav can't stam someone down by itself

[thorn pumice]

So you are comparing someone who gets into a melee cleave, doesn't get jabbed or flinched to someone standing at range blindly lobbing javelins?

[lucid kiln]

Active parry prevents jabs so it's not really a thing that happens

How many times have you been jabbed when four people are surrounding you?

[thorn pumice]

The problem with melee cleave is all the mouse 1 dumb dumbs who can't figure out overhead or stab

[lucid kiln]

Also, jabs are easily ducked with crouches unless they crouch with you

[thorn pumice]

But with all that being said... who is at more risk, the melee cleave or the javelins?

[lucid kiln]

My main point tho is, yeah, you can get jabbed to stop that, but if you land the first hit that's still a shitload of damage to several people

When soter dave says that skirmisher underperforms, he's literally talking about kills per second

Because melee kills more, faster, and better than skirmisher ever could

Skirmisher has a gimmick

[plucky forum]

Just because it's less risky doesn't mean that it's more effective. And yes, silver case is explaining what I'm trying to say. Although you can say the class is annoying, it does not perform well compared to other subclasses. So it doesn't make sense to Nerf it

[thorn pumice]

Yes, but if your comparison is kills per second, then we should massive buff daggers, hatchets, spears, and anything else that doesn't have sweeping attacks?

[plucky forum]

Now if you have a different philosophy to me when it comes to balancing, then that's a different story. But I personally believe that only the best options should be considered for nerfs

[lucid kiln]

Not trying to sell you a car here, but I'm a ambusher main with dagger and I can actually kill four people in a row very quickly

(helps if they're vanguard)

(Since I can two tap them)

[plucky forum]

The spear is actually the most overpowered weapon in the game. It does not need a buff at all. In fact, it's getting nerfed.

In regards to the dagger, they actually are buffing the ambusher quite massively in the next patch.

They're giving ambusher the ability to insta kill so now the dagger will never down people. Quite a good buff

[lucid kiln]

The spear argument has some legs, I'm just going to say hatchet is DEFINITELY my choice of crowd clearing weapon

Spears basically operate like archers where they're not very strong on their own, but get a lot stronger the more people are fighting with the spear

Javelin archers cannot 1 v 1 effectively

So if you isolate them, they die.

[thorn pumice]

I do not think potential "kills per second" can be the metric to use for balancing.

[lucid kiln]

Or you can interrupt their throws by hitting them, you can counter the javs out of the air 100% of the time once you master the timing, you can block the jav and get a riposte and stab them

(That's not even a cap, I can react to jav throws on reaction and just counter them if you're in front of me)

[plucky forum]

Don't forget that archers are limited. And skirmishers even more so

[thorn pumice]

I don't think it is the 1v1 javelin problem. it is the mass combat and some javelins are just flying into the crowd

[plucky forum]

Which is another form of balancing.

[thorn pumice]

and either 1 shot you (vanguard) or flinch you because the active parry mechanic doesn't seem to work on them.

or I should say the active parry immunity

[lucid kiln]

If you're forming a massive crowd and you don't have a opponent in front of you, you probably deserve to get hit. You can stop javs from hitting you by making sure your opponents back is to the archer

[thorn pumice]

You are assuming the opponent (not the javelin) is standing still like a post.

[lucid kiln]

Right, but if they have to flank around, they're moving to your teams side and exposing themselves to other players

[thorn pumice]

I just think 85 damage base (and 133 headshot) is just too high. It is some of the most damage in the game

[plucky forum]

Active Parry works on javelins and all throwables

[thorn pumice]

It is not like refill boxes are limited... they are every where and readily available

[lucid kiln]

The idea is your opponents back is to his archer, which means if he rotates, these maps are two sided, the rotation would force the archer to get closer to you/closer to your teams frontline

[plucky forum]

It's fine that the damage is high because they are nerfed in other ways. This leads them to not being that effective on the battlefield

[thorn pumice]

I have never seen active parry work on a javelin, even while watching it work on numerous other melee attacks.

What way are they nerfed?

[lucid kiln]

Dagger does 150 to the back, blunts can do over 100 universally, axes do I think upwards of 90-125

And pretty much any two handed weapon can do 80 damage on a throw

[thorn pumice]

Blunt weapons do not do over 100 universally

[lucid kiln]

If active parry doesn't work on jav I'm all for that bug fix

[plucky forum]

Their ability is Quiver, they have to play Archer (one shot by Bows and numerous melee weapons)

This leads to them being not that effective on the battlefield

[thorn pumice]

Name 1 weapon taht 1 shots an archer?

[lucid kiln]

Archers also have less stamina meaning if you get them in melee you should always win if you're good

[thorn pumice]

I can only think of 1 weapon, that is a maul special. Everything else 2 hits

2 hits at best*

[plucky forum]

Bow, Warbow, Crossbow, Greatsword, Maul

Also I think Messer

Highlander Sword

[thorn pumice]

All those melee weapons take 2+

except maul special

[lucid kiln]

Dagger, GS, jav, warbow, hatchet, short sword, highlander sword, messer, poleaxe, war axe, battle axe

Crossbow

Archers have 90 health. If you can do more than 90 in one hit, that's a instakill

I think they can only overheal to 100 now

[thorn pumice]

Because you don't get +50%/35%/25% damage to archers

[plucky forum]

Greatsword one shots. Highlander one shots

All the projectiles one shot (Warbow one shots to the body, which is especially crazy!)

[lucid kiln]

Main reason I play Ambusher is Ambusher is ridiculously good at killing archers.

I can do 62 damage with throwing knives to the head, 40 to the body, archers only have 90 health by default so any hit makes them instantly killable by any attack

Archers never take more than two hits to kill

(Unless they counter/defend)

[fossil sail]

or have overheal

[thorn pumice]

Perhaps for daggers, but a heavy mace takes 2 heavy hits, or 1 heavy slash + 1 slash to down and 1 to finish off

[lucid kiln]

Maul special does 120 damage, archers can only have 100 health

I wouldn't use the special to kill an archer tho

I'd just overhead them until they died.

Since they have no stamina, if they block one maul overhead, they can't block anymore or they'll be disarmed

The light shield does help a little bit but maul smashes it

[thorn pumice]

Overhead of great sword is 80? So which attack 1 shots? Highlander is 100 I think, so perhaps without overheal, that might work

[fossil sail]

Imagine blocking a maul swing instead of countering

[plucky forum]

Basically, archers die pretty easily. Lots of weapons one shot them, and not just silly weapons. Common weapons like the greatsword, Highlander sword, and all projectiles pretty much. Did you know a throwing ax can one shot in archer?

I'm not saying this is a problem. Don't get me wrong. But I am saying this is a case towards how they are balanced

[plucky forum]

Heavy overhead

[lucid kiln]

It's 90.

The special is 100 damage

Messer does 80, but its special is 90

Anyway if an archer is at 10 health you can just jab them and they die

ANd jabs are the safest attack in the entire game

[fossil sail]

can cudgel 1 shot from behind on ambusher?

[plucky forum]

Probably not

Cudgel hits like a pillow

[thorn pumice]

If anyone is at 10 health, you can just jab them and they die 😆

[plucky forum]

Skirmishers are not strong. Their javelins are annoying, but that's all they have going for them. Everything else is just worse

[fossil sail]

Well, that and the shield, that's a good jab damage

[plucky forum]

If you want to counter them, have someone on your team one shot them in the body with a war bow. Or heavy overhead them with a great sword.

[lucid kiln]

If jav needed a damage nerf, I'd go with 70 damage (still good enough to instakill fucking vanguards I think, which vanguards deserve because they're overtuned) and increasing the melee damage on jav so they're encouraged to fight closer

[thorn pumice]

I don't know. I just find my reason for logging off or taking a break is often times tied to a skilled javelin (or archer) on the other team. It just isn't fun to play well and then get get killed by something you could do nothing about (arrows).

[plucky forum]

Yes but I reserve the shield for anti archer gaming. I don't use it in combat cuz it breaks

[lucid kiln]

That's the point though, they have such low hp pools it's easy to get them to jabbable death.

[thorn pumice]

If javelins are meant to counter vanguards (big IF), then tone down the damage on provide a bonus to vanguards

[lucid kiln]

Every single weapon in the game can do 80% of a archers hp bar in one hit

[plucky forum]

That's fine. You can say that they're not fun or enjoyable to fight but that doesn't mean that making them weaker is right

There are tons of things that are not fun to fight

[fossil sail]

I just chuck it if it's getting low. As long as you're not doing a riposte heavy combat style (which archer can't afford to do much anyways), it should be fine

[plucky forum]

I try to counter more but I fail sometimes

[lucid kiln]

I'm at the point where archers barely kill me, I think you probably still have a long way to go on improving

You're not at max yet.

I just back the fuck off if I start getting shot

And move the situation in my favor

[fossil sail]

I like throwing daggers at Silver

[lucid kiln]

😦

[plucky forum]

It's also noteworthy again to mention that there can only be so many skirmishers in a lobby. They are heavily limited, making them easier to focus on and block their javelins

[lucid kiln]

(I'm more worried about throwing knives than javs)

[plucky forum]

I agree.

[lucid kiln]

No, unfortunately

...wait

Gimme a minute on that one

[fossil sail]

Can you two give throwing knives a test with the new update. I know it's not out yet, but the brief change they did today makes something feel different.. They felt slower for me and i'd like someone to verify I'm not insane

[lucid kiln]

YES. It can instakill archers.

[robust stratus]

Javs are a wasted Archer spot compared to Crossbow or Warbow, they make less of an impact and also bring zero utility.

You would have a bigger impact with a 2 handed spear than a Jav.

[lucid kiln]

Just barely though at around 92ish damage

[thorn pumice]

I mean... isn't TB handing out a nerf to 2h spears (and 1h?)

[plucky forum]

Yes.

[lucid kiln]

Yeah because they're actually strong

Kind of the point here

[thorn pumice]

So Keeper's argument of picking a clearly OP weapon over javs makes javs ok?

[plucky forum]

Yes. If there is a stronger option, I see no reason to Nerf the weaker option

[robust stratus]

Javs are the worst Archer class besides Throwing axes

[plucky forum]

Sounds sound to me

[lucid kiln]

Oh assuredly. Did you notice the previous knife throwing animation change a few months ago?

[lucid kiln]

Well I think me and Soter are under the design philosophy of "If a weapon isn't actually broken, then you shouldn't nerf it because then literally no one will use it"

[fossil sail]

I wasn't using throwing knives that much a few months ago.

[robust stratus]

You know what counters a Jav player?

1. Awareness if they play as ranged
2. Block

[fossil sail]

So I might have, but idk

[lucid kiln]

You're making a weapon that's mediocre compared to other weapons even more mediocre

[plucky forum]

Yes. The only thing that I've heard is that they are annoying to deal with, but that doesn't mean anything. Anyone could say that about any subclass

[thorn pumice]

But that argument relies solely on the fact that the weapon is not broken, which is where I disagree

[lucid kiln]

I don't think Javs are broken. No one was using them until crossbow got nerfed.

[robust stratus]

What exactly is broken on Javs?

[lucid kiln]

They're the main archer weapon now not due to their strength, but due to constant and persistent archer nerfs

...and crossbow being actually kind of hard to play now

[thorn pumice]

See the original post... Ziggy made lots of great points (imho)

[lucid kiln]

Warbow btw does more damage than jav and cannot be blocked

[robust stratus]

Crossbow is really easy, just jump shot and drag. Even the non aim assisted shots get it on drags.

[fossil sail]

Be a real chad, be throwing axe skirmisher.

[thorn pumice]

Yes, I would argue war bows need toned down too 😄

[lucid kiln]

They only have 12 shots!

I highly recommend playing archer and coming back

[plucky forum]

Any point to the javelin's strengths is outweighed by the multitude of weaknesses of being an archer. Furthermore, even if you did take javelins at face value, there are other weapons which are simply more effective in terms of their ability to kill more people in the game

So why Nerf them?

[lucid kiln]

I'm not an archer main but I've played archer a few times and you'll quickly realize how difficult it is to even get one kill

[robust stratus]

His whole point is that he is tired of getting killed when 1vX and thy drain Stam.

Both of which are easy to fix with game awareness.

[lucid kiln]

compared to how easy and seemless it is to murder with a melee weapon

[thorn pumice]

My K:D ratio with the javelin is 97....

[lucid kiln]

Also there are plenty of maps where you don't have access to ammo boxes. Rudhelms second objective has no ammo boxes for the attacking team

[thorn pumice]

And it is level 7 😆

[plucky forum]

Simply a broken number. Happens all the time my KD with the spear is over 100

[lucid kiln]

You have to fight into the defending team to get ammo or retreat all the way to spawn, wasting your time

[thorn pumice]

Meaning I didn't have to play it much to acquire any sort of effectiveness with it

[lucid kiln]

Yeah you don't have a 97 kd with javs

[plucky forum]

That doesn't mean anything, even if it was the truth. Because there's no way that you're going to outperform someone with a better subclass of equal skill

[robust stratus]

You can get a 97KD playing bots or stacking Offense with party members like OP Here. Doesn't make a weapon OP

[thorn pumice]

bet?

[lucid kiln]

That's 97 kills per life dude

[plucky forum]

Precisely. I can easily pick officer with greatsword and there is nothing that you could do to outperform me. We can play for months and I will always do better than you every game

Even if the enemies never block or never do anything to prevent your javelins from hitting them, which spoiler alert they totally will

[lucid kiln]

You did not kill 97 people without dying as skirmisher in one match

[robust stratus]

Him not knowing it doesn't track correctly

[plucky forum]

In fact I'll be suggesting Skirmisher buffs in a thread soon. (Not to javelins)

[plucky forum]

Hilarious

[thorn pumice]

Its ok.... its fine

[robust stratus]

Also you should be banned from calling for nerfs on a class you haven't taken to 50 or 100.

You aren't talking from experience you are talking from salt.

[lucid kiln]

That's broken data

There's just no way that NO ONE would have killed you

[thorn pumice]

First I didn't have it... now its broken data

[lucid kiln]

Like are you just the best player on earth?

[thorn pumice]

Interesting 😐

[lucid kiln]

I've been playing for 1000 hours and I can't pull that off

[robust stratus]

It's easy

[frosty gulch]

Experience 🤣

[plucky forum]

Alters. I would like you to explain why the power of javelins is greater than the spear, Highlander sword, greatsword, messer, or pretty much any meta weapon

[lucid kiln]

I honestly think anyone complaining about archer needs to "take a walk in the others shoes" and play it for a few weeks. Consistently.

[robust stratus]

But for real, you should be required to hit 50 with a class before calling for nerfs against it.

[frosty gulch]

20 dmg jabs

Spear special

[lucid kiln]

I don't play archer because archer just feels weak to me overall.

[frosty gulch]

Body shots that do 5 less than a heavy overhead with GS

[plucky forum]

The light shield is temporary and breaks after 200 damage has been blocked. Happens quite quickly

[robust stratus]

Another glass cannon option built into a gimmick class

[frosty gulch]

If you’re blocking and not countering

[lucid kiln]

You can throw out heavy overheads with GS way faster

DPS is higher on melee.

[thorn pumice]

replied to wrong message... whoops

[plucky forum]

I would say I'm fairly skilled and it's still breaks quite frequently. Regardless, jobs aren't that impactful in team objective

[frosty gulch]

Not from the safety of range

[plucky forum]

Of course. I'm saying that the skirmisher is not as effective as many of the other subclasses, which is why it doesn't deserve to be nerfed

To be honest, it's the weakest Archer subclass.

[thorn pumice]

Javs doing 85 damage is just crazy to me. Maybe fall off damage doesn't kick in fast enough?

[robust stratus]

Mid range Javs are easy targets for Archers.

Almost like we have a Rock Paper Scissors thing going huh

[lucid kiln]

Ranged isn't safe, there are five melee classes with a ranged option (raider, devastator, ambusher, knight officer, knight crusader)

Like if you play knight officer and you see an archer, just start throwing knives

[frosty gulch]

Javelins dmg way to much, way to much reward for little risk

[robust stratus]

What's your level with Jav?

[lucid kiln]

Yeah that's the point. Archers at range take less risk, at close range though there's a LOT of risk

Archers get ran over

[thorn pumice]

Knives... it would take 3 hits (no blocks) to kill the archer. 3 of 4 you have...

[lucid kiln]

Two if you can land one headshot

[plucky forum]

While I will agree with you that it isn't all that risky, you still underperform compared to other stronger subclasses. So why do you say it deals too much damage?

[robust stratus]

They can't block with bow

Nerf throwing knives

[lucid kiln]

Also, archers are getting shot at by other archers and you have teammates who might also be attacking the same archer

So archers are always in fights even when they seem like they aren't

Standing backwards exposes you more to archers because you're going to be the only guy who doesn't have teammates to eat shots for him

[robust stratus]

Trying to explain that to non Archer players is a tough sell

[lucid kiln]

Btw, 81 damage isn't a big deal. You can duck behind teammates and heal, remember?

And if you're NOT near teammates, it's a team game, stop isolating yourself and gettin surrounded

[thorn pumice]

Keeper - isn't the same perspective go for you? You have 700+ ranks on archers, but seem to heavily favor them. Couldn't someone with 700+ ranks on melee say the exact same argument towards you?

[fossil sail]

Imagine having confidence of a weapon's current meta stats at level 7

[robust stratus]

I have asked for a ton of Nerfs for Archers

[plucky forum]

That's why I'm here. I play every class. All of my classes are above level 50, with some of them being over level 100

I'm extremely experienced in every subclass.

And I can tell you that skirmisher is one of the weakest

In terms of getting you the win on the map

[robust stratus]

Also you are deflecting, if you think something is overpowered you would be able to explain it better and not be vague and show you don't play it.

[frosty gulch]

I’ve actually played some warbow and it’s easy to kill skirmishers with it yes, but it’s destroying a whole game mode because of how strong it is

[fossil sail]

Destroying..?

[robust stratus]

I have played 0 games with a top scoring skirmisher or top kills one.

[plucky forum]

I don't think so at all. You would have to argue that javelins are stronger than the meta weapons in the game, which they aren't. Furthermore, using javelins puts you at a severe disadvantage because you have all the disadvantages of being an Archer

[fossil sail]

Man, it's not the apocalypse every time a skirmisher dares to exist, lol

[robust stratus]

1,000 with Highlander

[thorn pumice]

Again, I believe Ziggy made great points in his original post. I am not about to copy and paste that to you. On the same side of that coin, I do not believe you have made quality arguments to counter his points.

[robust stratus]

You are what level with Skirmisher?

[plucky forum]

I have.

[fossil sail]

All of us have seen, and to some degree agreed/disagreed with his original post, no reason to bring it back up at this point

[frosty gulch]

No I wouldn’t because it’s low risk high reward

[lucid kiln]

Name one skirmisher whos name you even remember from how many times they killed you

Any top scorers?

[frosty gulch]

Javelindouche?

[lucid kiln]

Like, do you ever look at the skirmisher who killed you and notice he's going 20 deaths 10 kills?

What's the highest score you've seen on a skirmisher

[robust stratus]

Outside FFA it doesn't happen, hell the guy who made this post couldn't even do it.

That speaks volumes

[lucid kiln]

You might be the LUCKY KILL that guy got after dying 8 times in a row

Or missing 20

[plucky forum]

Low or high risk doesn't mean anything. I'm specifically talking about the classes ability to perform and kill as many people as possible or support the team in an impactful way.

The skirmisher does not kill faster than many subclasses, and he doesn't support the team with any powerful items. That doesn't mean that he's bad, it just means that he's worse. Which means he doesn't deserve to be nerfed.

Just because you believe that there isn't much risk to his gameplay doesn't mean that he is more impactful because of it. He isn't. You can make the argument for how a bad player can perform better on skirmisher than they can with a melee weapon, but that still doesn't warrant nerfing it.

[lucid kiln]

That's true, but High Risk High Reward is always better in this game

[frosty gulch]

Javelins run FFA

[plucky forum]

The game is balanced around TO

And also I just don't agree with the statement anyway

[lucid kiln]

Well yeah, and so does ambusher/throwing knives. That's a fucked gamemode because the main goal is just getting the most kills, and the best way to do that is stealing kills from other people already in fights

[robust stratus]

Being broken in the least played mode isn't game breaking

[lucid kiln]

It's not balanced at all.

Or rather, it's balanced, but the strategy for FFA is degenerate

[thorn pumice]

I agree with high risk, high reward. I just don't feel skirmishers are at that high of a risk.

[lucid kiln]

Pizza Steve grinded to lvl 1000 just hitting people in the back of the head with a maul in FFA, do we need to nerf maul?

[thorn pumice]

Maybe flinching from range is the problem? Would you all be opposed to removing the flinch from the javelin when thrown?

[lucid kiln]

They are the second you get close to them and if another archer is actually focusing them

[frosty gulch]

His highest lvl weapon was pick axe

[lucid kiln]

Remember, archers can instakill other archers. Javelins have a MUCH LOWER RANGE than a crossbow or bow

They can't fight other archers as effectively, yet are still vulnerable to them

If you get bodyshot by a warbow, you're dead as skirmisher

[plucky forum]

Yes. Again, I would be opposed to any Nerf that isn't counteracted with some type of buff because as it currently stands the skirmisher is not that good compared to other subclasses.

If you can prove to me that the skirmisher outperforms other subclasses, then you can argue for why he should be nerfed

[lucid kiln]

Also that 81 damage? I can ignore that damage on knight, I can't ignore it if I'm skirmisher because that's literally 90% of my health

[robust stratus]

The whole area this guy and OP have problems with them doing well in is the most dangerous spot in the game for them.

Wild

[lucid kiln]

(Knights can also self heal in quite a few ways)

[fossil sail]

That's me

[frosty gulch]

If they can ruin ffa it’s a strong statement the class is to strong on top of having a lot of other tools in it’s kit not just 5 sticks

[plucky forum]

FFA isn't the game. Should we buff Bowman because he performs terribly in ffa? Does he need a massive buff because of that?

[lucid kiln]

Best clip I have for Jav archer. Compare to what I can do to archers

[plucky forum]

That doesn't make sense. FFA isn't representative of the game balance

[robust stratus]

FFA is the least played game mode

It literally was banished to the server browser

[fossil sail]

Anyways, I'll say that of all the games of TO I've played in the last weak, I don't remember seeing a singular archer. Granted, I also have played 0 games of TO this week

[plucky forum]

And they don't balance the game around that game mode. Even if I agreed with you, which I don't.

[frosty gulch]

Bowman can actually win ffa saw Reptar do it plenty

[plucky forum]

Of course he can, it's just worse than running around with a melee weapon.

[thorn pumice]

So you have a 1h spear with the ability to 1 shot at range? 😆

[lucid kiln]

That knight was already wounded and he swung at a range where he literally couldn't hit me like a scrub.

[plucky forum]

Regardless I still don't agree that it ruins free for all.

[fossil sail]

That being said, I think it's faulty to think balance is solely considering TO and only TO. Ideally I think they want a balance point that feels fair for most game modes in general

[lucid kiln]

I think you have to realize that sometimes its literally your fault if you get hit

[thorn pumice]

My point being, your melee ability was incredibly similar to the 1h spear and you can 1 shot vanguards at range (not just that guy)

[plucky forum]

The javelin does considerably less damage than the one-handed spear

[lucid kiln]

Yeah but watch the next video

[plucky forum]

As a melee weapon

[frosty gulch]

I played it enough to know what a healthy balance is and I’d mostly meme the fuck around

[lucid kiln]

Where I kill 5 archers in a row

With a dagger.

[fossil sail]

Isn't jav also signficantly less range than 1h spear too?

[lucid kiln]

Notice how much faster I can kill?

[thorn pumice]

Does it? I am not sure

[plucky forum]

Yes. But significantly is subjective

[fossil sail]

It does.

[plucky forum]

30 damage on a normal attack

[fossil sail]

Sorry I'm a range dork

[lucid kiln]

If you throw your fifth javelin you no longer have a ranged option so javelins effectively have four shots

And a well played skirmisher does not just hang around ammo kits, that's bad

[fossil sail]

Technically you have a shield as a ranged option

[lucid kiln]

HM

[thorn pumice]

Disagree... you have your melee weapon (i.e. falchion)

[frosty gulch]

You get a falchion or 1h axe secondary after the 5 javelins

And a bear trap

It’s a fantasy class

[lucid kiln]

Oh yeah sure. ALWAYS FORGET. But that weapon makes you have to play much closer to your opponent, which you do not want when being even mildly wounded means any weapon can one tap you

[fossil sail]

Falchion is not a 'ranged option'

[plucky forum]

It's really fun and enjoyable and I absolutely love the class. But no matter how you look at it, it's just worse than many of the other subclasses.

So I could never support nerfing it.

If you wanted to Nerf javelins but you wanted to buff the class in another way, then I'd be willing to hear it

[lucid kiln]

As knight, I can take 20 damage and be like "Ok, well I still have 155-180 health left"

As archer, I'm like, "Oh fuck, any heavy overhead can kill me now"

"and some LIGHTS"

[fossil sail]

You know, I bet there wouldn't be so many people whining about it if they cut back on aim assist cough cough

[plucky forum]

That too. I agree with that

[frosty gulch]

Aim assist is also ridiculous

[plucky forum]

There are some changes that I agreed with. Like these:

• Javelins should not flinch VIP
• Javelin carry capacity should be reduced to 1 on non-Skirmisher

If these changes were put through I would not complain. I fully support them

[frosty gulch]

Playing on console you can just toss arrows and they hit

[lucid kiln]

I just fail to see how jav skirmisher is more of a problem than this

[fossil sail]

I wish I had this game's aim assist irl so I can throw stuff in the trash from afar

[plucky forum]

Watch out guys. The ambusher can one shot vanguards and footman, he's op!

He can one shot three classes in the game!

[lucid kiln]

You know what I just realized, is that soter, wildcard, and me are all ambusher mains

[plucky forum]

And for night, he can hit him once and then finish him off with a throwing knife

[plucky forum]

Not an Ambusher main

[thorn pumice]

I am a little bit scared of a buff to daggers. Anyone with considerable play time on a dagger is crazy tough to kill, even 1 on 1. Their ability to feint faster than most 2handers can non-heavy anything is tough

[fossil sail]

Well, I dunno if I'd say main for me either

[plucky forum]

I'm a king of all trades

[fossil sail]

Dave says this but in duels he's ambusher 99% of the time

[lucid kiln]

They won't buff it again I think, I really don't think it needs it

[fossil sail]

and like... rapier 1% of the time

[plucky forum]

It's a minor buff so I don't mind. Same reason I don't mind skirmisher how he is now. Ambusher and skirmisher are not stronger than the other options, so I don't mind them

And this new buff to dagger will not make ambusher stronger than the other options, so I still don't care. It was unnecessary though

[fossil sail]

Dagger does NOT need a buff. That thing is a powerhouse.

[thorn pumice]

There is a dagger player I see routinely (Khaosan or Khaorsan...something like that) who is incredibly challenging to deal with

[fossil sail]

Buff hatchet

[plucky forum]

Hatchet is fine, daggers fine, cudgel is not fine but we don't care

[fossil sail]

Cudgel is pretty good in 1v1 but that's because hitstop is stronk

[plucky forum]

Keep telling yourself that bub

[lucid kiln]

I fuck with hatchet

[lucid kiln]

Can cudgel cleave? That might be the one thing it really has over dagger

[plucky forum]

No

[lucid kiln]

I was seeing John go turbo with it before he quit the game in TO

[fossil sail]

Uh. I will? Ever since the blunt stam damage buff, it's not that bad.

[plucky forum]

Thing hits like a pillow

[lucid kiln]

It does combo fast

[fossil sail]

Hitstop fast combos are very good for weapons like pickaxe too

[thorn pumice]

I keep hearing about the blunt stam damage buff, but I don't feel it when I run the heavy mace. large shields can still just hold fucking block 7-10 times

[lucid kiln]

It hits like a pillow until you get behind a guy and overhead twice real fast

(BUFF IT ANYWAY)

[frosty gulch]

Hopefully javelins kill this game faster than 133 dmg

[fossil sail]

Shields are an hp threshold, they aren't affected by stam damage buff

[lucid kiln]

Shields negate stam damage

[fossil sail]

Regular blocks feel it

[lucid kiln]

supposedly axes are supposed to do bonus damage to shields

[fossil sail]

thanks bot

[plucky forum]

That's because Shields are nasty. They block 75% of the stamina damage, so you'll never outstanding them faster than they'll regenerate stamina

But trust me it was a good change and it definitely helped

[lucid kiln]

It's the hyper negativity that makes me think you simply aren't that good at the game

[thorn pumice]

Interesting. I didn't really use shields before the nerf, but every time I do now, I find it crazy how much abuse they can take without so much as trying to riposte/parry

[lucid kiln]

And get frustrated very easily when you fail

[thorn pumice]

errr before the buff*

(not calling for a nerf, I am just astonished by it)

[lucid kiln]

Javs barely kill me. I'm like 1000 hours in.

[frosty gulch]

Nah projectile hell game sold as a melee slasher

[lucid kiln]

I sometimes get picked off by one, but I die to maybe one javelin vs the 20 times I die in melee

[lucid kiln]

There's a hard class limit on archers.

[frosty gulch]

Soft limit

[fossil sail]

Ever since the stam damage buff, t here's been a huge spike of mace users in the duel yards. Disarm tactics with ripostes have been significantly more relevant and pushed away from the heavily counter meta we had.

[lucid kiln]

lol how many craig?

[fossil sail]

Lots of people still counter like crazy, but it's added some variety

[lucid kiln]

jeopardy music

[frosty gulch]

Any class can pick up a bow or javelins

[lucid kiln]

They don't though.

No one is doing that.

It's less effective than just sticking with your melee weapon

[frosty gulch]

There’s always a knight with a bow in TO

[plucky forum]

You should play more 40 player.

[lucid kiln]

It's rare that I see a non archer pick up a bow, you have to sacrifice your gear for it

"Always"

That's a cap

Really? Always? In every single match?

[frosty gulch]

Also I’m pretty sure that shuffle isn’t affected by the cap

[lucid kiln]

Really? You sure? That really happened?

Read this as sarcasm btw

[thorn pumice]

lol.. does the dude frantically trying to pick up a weapon out of the pile count? 😆

But I do see it on occasion. Someone who is not an archer consistently using a bow. Generally think they are just trying to level up the weapon? Not entirely sure

[lucid kiln]

Its a thing, but it's such a non factor. Also you can't zoom in if you play archer knight

And I don't think you get the same headshot bonuses

I think only knight officer can even headshot

[frosty gulch]

Aim assist works just fine without the zoom

[lucid kiln]

Why would you do that when you could stick to doing 70 damage on heavy swings with a GS?

[thorn pumice]

This aim assist you speak of... is this for controller players?

[plucky forum]

We're getting a bit off topic with this one.

But generally I also dislike people picking up weapons that aren't from their class, especially Archer weapons

[lucid kiln]

I don't like aim assist and would 100% agree with removing it.

[frosty gulch]

I’m on console

[lucid kiln]

But if you look at the scoreboard, most people play pc and don't have aim assist

As far as I could tell today anyway

[frosty gulch]

Aim assist way to strong

[lucid kiln]

I had 5 xbox guys out of 27 pc

[thorn pumice]

I have always wondered as some people just seemed to be able to thread a projectile through their 47 teammates to head shot the 1 guy in the pile. It will be interesting to see the trend now that we can see who is on console

[lucid kiln]

What, you don't like dueling a vanguard who picked up a longsword? /s

[plucky forum]

No

[frosty gulch]

If you feel like an arrow magnet it’s because the game literally makes you one

[thorn pumice]

I could agree with this. Or give the "unfamiliar" weapon some penalty, like damage or stamina.

[plucky forum]

We already gave suggestions. Javelins should not stack when picked up by a non-skirmisher, bows should have significantly less ammo or just have a single arrow, same with crossbow.

[fossil sail]

It's actually a genuine issue. Some higher level teams will have one player donate their war bow to a knight friend so that way they can survive counter-archer attempts.

[plucky forum]

That way you can still pick up the Archer weapons to do a quick cool shot with it but then it's gone

Like if I see a javelin on the ground I still want the ability to pick it up and throw it but I don't think it should give me five of them

[fossil sail]

It doesn't happen 'every game', but it's an issue for sure

[thorn pumice]

I would agree on the melee weapon side too, but that may be too much of a burden for folks who were disarmed

[fossil sail]

cries in engineer

[plucky forum]

You're not even ready to hear the ultimate combat engineer buff that'll knock your socks off

I plan on making a thread for that after the new update

[fossil sail]

Resupply traps?

[plucky forum]

Heal Walls by hitting them with your weapon

[lucid kiln]

Ressuplying any walls at ALL would be nice

[frosty gulch]

A secondary ohh my!

[fossil sail]

But...

You get 2 back per resupply

[lucid kiln]

Only took us 15 years to realize what Teamfortress 2 has been trying to tell us this whole time

[fossil sail]

And Mordhau

[plucky forum]

Yeah, would be nice. It would give their weapon a purpose on defense

Currently there's no reason to use your engineer weapon on defense

[lucid kiln]

I think you only get two of one of your kinds of wall you don't get the ramp back

[fossil sail]

Actually, you know..

[thorn pumice]

This could be interesting, but I would be interested in the amount of heal per hit. Like that could get crazy unbreakable

[fossil sail]

Can you imagine duels where they keep trying to break your wall but you keep running around healing it

[plucky forum]

A topic for another day. The thread will be up in a few weeks

[lucid kiln]

Which is ridiculous btw, the ramp wall is INTEGRAL to building defenses, why doesn't that resupply?

[fossil sail]

Yeah, traps don't replenish which sucks.

But you get 2 walls per, and can put down a max of 4

[lucid kiln]

Oh god. You'd be blacklisted

[frosty gulch]

Should be healed with hits from throwing mallet as a secondary

[plucky forum]

😑

[lucid kiln]

I'd hope axes/engineer weps would keep their bonuses towards structure damage

[frosty gulch]

Mallet would fit the class

[lucid kiln]

Right now a HS overhead can instakill a wall

[fathom yarrow]

Keeper will never offer up actual counter points and do anything other than baiting, lying and insulting others, unless they agree with him. Every message he sends has some sort of undertone of superiority or insulting.

@plucky forum I think you should be more transparent, you often say "skirmisher underperforms" and "javelins are lower impact" but you never mention that you are focusing entirely on competitive TO. I think its important to distinct that in discussions like this because most people are going to assume youre talking about pub TOs, which is what the game was made for. I'm not diminishing your points you make, but it's still worth bringing up.

[buoyant badge]

3x javelins held max when

also 65 base damage 😇

[fickle ruin]

if they did this but gave skirmisher better stamina and speed it would transform it into a true "light" class

kinda bugs me how there is no quick light class in the game.

[buoyant badge]

wdym quick light class

vanguard is quick and light

[fickle ruin]

it's not a lightly armored class when you compare it to the archer, which is both slower and weaker despite visually wearing less armor

[fickle ruin]

I mean a class with light armor like gambeson who can use speed to their advantage. The vanguard wears mail armor.

[buoyant badge]

agatha vanguard wears a gambeson

[fickle ruin]

true

[robust stratus]

Weird it's like Connect pinned those exact things you claimed didn't happen.

Chin up bud, maybe next time your insult will work.

Weird you called me the liar. Projection and insecurities at its finest.

[robust stratus]

I always found it weird that the armor you wear has 0 impact on your speed.

[buoyant badge]

you act the exact way he said you would without any self awareness

any user who doesnt have you blocked probably joined yesterday

[robust stratus]

He called me a liar and I corrected

He claimed I didn't offer counters I did

Maybe don't slander people and expect them to be nice?

[buoyant badge]

passive aggressive undertone again

[robust stratus]

Sorry I don't respond to slander with a better attitude

[buoyant badge]

absolute stench on this community, never seen a postive comment made towards someone you disaggree with before

[robust stratus]

Weird you are ok with him making up lies about me.

[lucid kiln]

I don't think it's a lie that you get hostile towards people you disagree with, I've also experienced that.

Angry arguer.

[robust stratus]

When people insult I return energy

[lucid kiln]

I didn't insult you and you went off on me a few days ago lol

Like you joined to roast me

[robust stratus]

Link it in a DM

[lucid kiln]

It was the whole melee isn't popular Convo but yeah at work

[robust stratus]

99% of OP's comments about me are personal insults and slander in this thread.

See his last few where he just keeps calling me a liar despite being 100% wrong if you look at the pinned comments.

[buoyant badge]

you aren't fooling anybody, and also you aren't entitled to different treatment than what you give to every single person

[robust stratus]

You are adding nothing besides insults bud

[lucid kiln]

In his defense, if you go to this post @buoyant badge keeper is actually discussing shit and provides examples and then Ziggy calls him an idiot

[fathom yarrow]

Why would I waste my time?

[buoyant badge]

i genuinely do not care, you can't change my view that he's a cancer on the community

[fathom yarrow]

Every time I actually indulge in talking to Keeper, whether because im bored or because ive got nothing else to do or a curiosity

whenever I walk away from it, I always think about what a fucking waste of time it was

ill get better at walking way from it and ignoring it

[robust stratus]

See what I mean, nothing but insults. It's what he lives for.

Well him and RD, it's sad

[buoyant badge]

malicious little devil

😨

[robust stratus]

Notice he won't admit he lied about the bullet points that are pinned?

[fathom yarrow]

https://tenor.com/view/bait-fish-this-is-bait-gif-11212449

[robust stratus]

See he can't be wrong

[fathom yarrow]

https://tenor.com/view/jebaited-low-quality-bait-wavy-man-gif-26402013

[robust stratus]

Anyways, The Javs are fine and in 5 games last night I had 0 deaths to them.

The highest a Jav player took was 10th.

I still feel like they are a wasted spot compared to all Archers but Longbow.

So far in the games since this post which is about 40ish.

• I have seen 0 top scorers with Jav

• 0 Deaths to them

• Killed them around 50 times

• blocked about 10 of them (Thrown Javs)

@wanton drum @narrow stag @past goblet are you running into Javs being an issue as an Archer?

[dense forge]

My experience with 3 javelin games with no experience on the class/weapon and naturally terrible aim.
60/31/2 5th place
34/10/0 2nd place
53/38/3 3rd place

[fickle ruin]

sounds like you're just really good

what kind of scores do you get with other classes?

[robust stratus]

34/10/0 looks like a lot of non headshots in TDM?

[dense forge]

I am not my good sir. I was just throwing stuff into the crowd and the people who couldn't see me

[fickle ruin]

were you playing ffa or team modes?

javelins are a lot easier to use in FFA

[dense forge]

I do well in TO with melee classes. But with much, much, much more effort and a lot less safety

[dense forge]

Those games were in 64p TO

The one where I went 34/10/0 I joined late and we won early

One more thing I'd like to add is that I never died to any melee. It was just enemy arrows and 2 catapults

[lucid kiln]

31 kills is nothing. Like, you died less, but that's basically average and for some reason I expect a lot of these were on attack stacks

[dense forge]

I joined late and we won early

[lucid kiln]

On all of those?

[dense forge]

And I didn't die less, I didn't die at all

[dense forge]

Only in that 34/10/0 game

Rest were from start to finish

[lucid kiln]

Thats assists kills deaths yeh? Makes sense

[dense forge]

Yep

Takedowns, kills and deaths

[lucid kiln]

So you failed to actually kill 34 people, who died from other players because you wounded them, and killed 10

That's a huge disparity

From finished targets vs targets someone else finished off

[dense forge]

I joined late and we won early. If you take a look at the other two you'll see a difference

[lucid kiln]

But yeah not just focusing on that one, I've gotten over 60-70 kills using a dagger/throwing knives. That's better even if I died twice as much as you did

Last score on defense was 57 and I was going like 17 kills 2 deaths at 1st round on aberfell on defense

[dense forge]

I have done much better than this on my main weapons as well. The point I'm attempting to make is that I have no experience and have naturally terrible aim. I was just throwing stuff into the crowd and to people who couldn't reasonably see it coming

[lucid kiln]

Also there had to be no good archers around, that's insane you survived that long. Every time you throw a jav, you expose yourself to being shot

[lucid kiln]

Yeah, and that's just how the class works. It's damage support.

Does every single class in the game need to be "hard" because if that's the case, officer and devasator need major nerfs

[dense forge]

Nope

[lucid kiln]

Raider needs nerfs too, way too easy to get kills with

[robust stratus]

Ya none of these stat lines showcase it being an issue.

[dense forge]

But this one is substantially easier and safer

[lucid kiln]

The reason I'm asking is you're presenting the argument that because it was easy for you to pick up, it's crazy

[lucid kiln]

Yeah to an experienced vet.

[robust stratus]

Safer but you do worse than your main? Almost like you chose to be the front line or the support?

[lucid kiln]

You know how to fight in melee right?

[dense forge]

Again, I have no experience in archer or javelin and have bad aim

[lucid kiln]

So you've already learned half of what it takes to be a good skirmisher

[dense forge]

I like to think I am

[lucid kiln]

"Throwing shit" is also a skill you've probably developed.