More Weapons (& Adjacents) From Live TF2

[velvet hull]

(Weapon adjacents being reworks / redesigns of weapons, i.e. the Uberspritze to the Ubersaw, the Mine Layer to the Scottish Resistance, or the RPG to the Direct Hit)

Some weapons I would love to see versions of added to TF2C:
Force-A-Nature
Sandman (would need a rework)
Buff Banner
Pain Train
Backburner
Natascha
Frontier Justice
Blutsauger
Old Darwin's Danger Shield (+25 max health)
Your Eternal Reward
Cloak & Dagger

Even if they were reworked, buffed, nerfed, or changed visually, I think all of these would be great for TF2C.

[chrome pollen]

The natascha is a very hot take

[velvet hull]

yeah

true

[ripe breach]

Buff Banner doesnt really fit with how soldier plays imo, pain train is just kinda bland, backburner and blutsauger are too similar to stock, frontier justice is just kinda straight up bullshit, old darwins would result in 175 health snipers and fuck that, YER would need a buff, C&D is okay but I dont think it really fits TF2C

[chrome pollen]

Now, that's where the fun part is, definitely there isn't going to be a 1=1 translation to TF2C

So I would like to see how the dev team would take some of those concepts, and reinterpret them.

[ripe breach]

I mean, do most of these really have solid concepts behind them though?

[chrome pollen]

YER is the most likely to be added from spy's kit on TF2, as is the one that changes his gameplay the most.

I would rather a Dragon's Fury than a Backburner tho.

[hard chasm]

No

Please keep the natasha away from this

[velvet hull]

natascha is fine in casual matches, it only really becomes problematic in comp imo

[hard chasm]

Still not fun to be brought down to the speed of a heavy

[ripe breach]

I'm mostly dubious about the pain train

[chrome pollen]

The only thing I like about natasha is that is a minigun with a woman's name, witch is very fitting to heavy, because of Sasha. Beside that, is just a really bland weapon.

[ripe breach]

Imo the natascha just isnt different enough to be interesting

[median monolith]

i have... so many questions

[hard chasm]

Rename sasha to be natasha instead and that's all the representation that thing should get

[chrome pollen]

Now, there is something to be said about a turret heavy playstyle, were he has even less mobility, to acquire some other benefit. But I believe this has been done quite a few times on custom weapons, and for greater benefit than the natascha.

[ripe breach]

Is there though?

[velvet hull]

i've kinda noticed that the tf2c devs like adding one weapon similar to stock, and one weapon that changes the way you use that slot or play the class

sniper is the best example, with the hunting revolver and huntsman

[chrome pollen]

Turret heavy must be like the most common idea for heavy miniguns ever

Is like revolvers to engineer

[ripe breach]

the weapons similar to stock also tend to perform poorly and have low pick rates

[hard chasm]

Thing is the hellspawn is not fun for anyone

[ripe breach]

Mines, hunting revolver, honestly those are the only two can think of that fit that criteria

[hard chasm]

You are basically using a shittier minigun

[median monolith]

-FAN is a fair shout, i think id want something different though
-I do want scout to play ball, not necessarily in the form of the sandman
-Heavy should've had the banners
-Paintrain? Backburner?? Natascha???
-Frontier's is a fun idea but big meh
-Blutsauger has it's own thread #1387495600869871876
-DDS wasnt something i really liked even after they removed it resisting headshots
-PLEASE add the YER
-C&D is a fair idea

[hard chasm]

For everyone else it just makes it unfun

[ripe breach]

I think that the community as a whole generally isnt that interested in weapons that are very similar to stock

[hard chasm]

Wouldn't add fan obsolete when pyro basically gets the same thing

[chrome pollen]

Now, I will stand by mangoma'am here. Because reworking a good weapon to be equally good or better, is very nice, but there is also great vallue on looking for worse weapons, and trying to bring a new spin to their design to make them useful. The Sandman is a good example, is a baseball bat being used for what a baseball bat is normally used, a great idea, but valve never managed to make it work. But the TF2C team might take a good try at it aswell.

[hard chasm]

Everything else besides the sandman is fine i just don't know if you could drop most of those unlocks unchanged

[median monolith]

i think the YER would be the best idea for that type of thing but id first make something doing the YER's niche before straight up placing the YER here

[hard chasm]

Except the yer just make it less of a unreliable gimmick

And tada new unlock

[ripe breach]

The YER would need a buff at the very least

That said I'd be satisfied with a silent killer knife

[hard chasm]

Kinda what i wanted to say

[gaunt sparrow]

How much divisions does YER have?
||(What the heck is it?)||

[chrome pollen]

The devs won't add a sidegrade from vanilla without making major changes to it, the kristzkrieg is the exception.

[median monolith]

Your Eternal Reward, a knife unnecessarily nerfed

[chrome pollen]

(The Huntsman and boots are not sidegrades, they are different weapons.)

[median monolith]

huntsman

[ripe breach]

The kritzkrieg being in the game is mostly a legacy decision

[median monolith]

wh

[ripe breach]

I'm glad its in, but I'm not sure they'd add it today

[hard chasm]

i don't ever remember seeing it in tf2c

[median monolith]

its right there in the loadout menu

it has a properly different nozzle

[gaunt sparrow]

Thanks

[chrome pollen]

read you like a book

[hard chasm]

ik and it looks nice but like have you ever seen a medic pulling out the kritzkrieg of all things

[gaunt sparrow]

I did.

:D

[hard chasm]

i never did

i remember seein it a couple times before the great rejuvenator takeover

now all i see is that and stock

[median monolith]

i. have?

[chrome pollen]

I have seen people using it quite some times, and I do use it myself aswell

[median monolith]

this is, a very weird take

[celest anvil]

i lust for backburner in this game

the double barrel is such an amazing flank pyro secondary

but we dont have a particular flank pyro primary

[hard chasm]

i was gonna say smth but dude i can see it workin on tf2c

[gaunt sparrow]

I think rejuvenator is just too cool to use it over kritskrieg
Like rejuvenator is too good at healing and defence and normal one is cool for attack, but its just nowhere to put a krits

[ripe breach]

Yeah

Pretty frequently tbh

[median monolith]

maybe im weird for using it but ive seen all of the mediguns used nearly equally with some bias towards the rejuv

[hard chasm]

ok so somehow im the only one who never saw it in game coolio

[velvet hull]

kritz is pretty good if you're pocketing a demo but it's not gonna win games like stock or rejuvenator do

[chrome pollen]

A Side grade is an alternative version of a weapon, with upsides and downsides, the sniper rifle and huntsman are not side grades of each other.

[median monolith]

i dont, think that's how people use that word

[ripe breach]

I beg to differ

I've seen kritz's win games before

[gaunt sparrow]

No-no its does.
For example boots, you have a shotgun and grenade launcher, which can kill people when there's no rockets/stickies, but you can replace it with boots that gives you more mobility, but making you much more vulnerable in close fighting

[median monolith]

in a game where teampushes are the core push-and-pull, annihilating the enemy team in one fell swoop before they can get a push going is one of the most rewarding and important parts of medic

[chrome pollen]

They are all wrong, I know that because I have been blessed by the wisdom squirrel and I can never be wrong because of that.

[hard chasm]

it can if you're defending

[gaunt sparrow]

So you choosing between additional gun and mobility, this is a sidegrade, as I know

[ripe breach]

A sidegrade is when you grade on the side and the side is of the grade on the side of the paper and thats how the wind blows.

[velvet hull]

my head hurts

[gaunt sparrow]

Very informative, what is a sidegrade?

[median monolith]

a sidegrade is generally used to refer to alternate weapons in a class's kit, sidegrade since their usefulness and power is meant to be lateral to stock

that's your one serious answer for today

[celest anvil]

i think huntsman is a sidegrade and boots arent

[ripe breach]

I just told you you absolute buffoon

[gaunt sparrow]

Thanks

[median monolith]

anymore will cost donations to your local german doctor

[gaunt sparrow]

No, I'm not, this is all magician!!!

[polar bridge]

#tf2classified message

Won’t be added out of spite

[celest anvil]

i really want a pyro primary that combos really well with the twin barrel

backburner would potentially be that

[hard chasm]

i want to kms

[ripe breach]

Its worth noting that Sam does not work on weapon balance tmk

She is a modeler and texture artist

[polar bridge]

Feels weird that a dev would say “never getting in” if they didn’t have some authority or knowledge over a decision like that, no?

[median monolith]

also, she is probably just in jest

[velvet hull]

i think that there are some that should never get in, but that's just in general

[polar bridge]

90% of TF2 live weapons should NEVER be added

[ripe breach]

I mean if you want a real answer, the backburner isnt getting in because the devs arent going to add weapons from Live

[velvet hull]

off the top of my head the rescue ranger is one since it makes engie brain dead (and im saying this as someone who primarily plays engie)

[ripe breach]

Also the backburner doesnt play that differently from stock imo

[polar bridge]

DF’s and like, a heavily modified gas passer are the only two that have something salvageable that could fit in TF2C both stylistically and mechanically in some capacity

[ripe breach]

It's a direct upgrade if you're decent at airblasting

[ripe breach]

Ngl I think if you gave the gas passer the normal charge mechanic, it'd fit just fine

I'd use it

[hard chasm]

not without some reworkin at the very least

[velvet hull]

i think the devs would change it in some form like what they did with the sandvich

[median monolith]

agreed

[polar bridge]

The fact that it’s a phenomenal weapon concept gets lost on a lot of people just because of how bad the execution is, it’s a real shame.

[hard chasm]

-# dragon's fury totally should get in trust me

[ripe breach]

Imo most Live weapons just dont have interesting ideas behind them

Like the panic attack and natascha

[median monolith]

i still think the debuff is unexploitable for the pyro unless you somehow had a primary that doesnt set people on fire

[median monolith]

see, natascha's core idea is "if im slow everyone's slow"

[ripe breach]

Make flame damage deal minicrits to gassed enemies

There done good work

[ripe breach]

I said interesting ideas

[polar bridge]

The problem is that most weapons added to Live TF2 created an environment, meta, and culture TF2C is explicitly trying to reject and avoid

[median monolith]

imo that'd still be a rework but fair

[velvet hull]

im not really for a lot of live weapons personally

mostly just the ones i listed

[ripe breach]

Yeah but it wouldnt be a significant change to how the weapon works

[polar bridge]

I’m for like 2 or 3

[median monolith]

i dont think its that all bad but that's a fair point

[polar bridge]

DF, Gas Passer, and the soda popper are the only weapons I’d be seriously interested in TF2C trying to fit into the game.

Soda popper purely just for a double barrel scout weapon

[median monolith]

why the soda popper?

oh

[velvet hull]

hear me out here when i say brass beast's concept

like not the brass beast itself

[median monolith]

id have to run down the list again... there's so many in tf2

[velvet hull]

just the idea of a defensive heavy primary

[polar bridge]

Unrelated but the brass beast is probably the ugliest weapon in the game

[median monolith]

agreed

[velvet hull]

it's def up there

[polar bridge]

It’s color is so jarring compared to every other color in live TF2 you can notice it from a mile away

[ripe breach]

I mean

[median monolith]

as someone who uses the brass beast occasionally i think something behind it is good enough to make it in

[median monolith]

... no? any of the gordbort weapons have it way worse

[ripe breach]

I dont think a defensive heavy primary really works because the last two things heavy needs more of is damage and tankiness

[velvet hull]

i honestly think the brass beast is fine as is i just would not want it to use the same model

[median monolith]

???

[velvet hull]

true

the reason brass beast is so "bad" in live is because people want heavy to be a generalist

[median monolith]

fair enough

[polar bridge]

Gordbort weapons completely shit all over the setting but at least respect the art style and understand its color, styling, and texture work

Brass beast shits on the games setting and has awful modeling and colors

[velvet hull]

but by comparison in tf2c it'd be probably the better of the three

[median monolith]

no?? i mean color and stuff sure but the art style is all over the place due to being near 1:1 modeled from the originals

[median monolith]

??????

[ripe breach]

I just dont think the brass beast looks like a gun

[median monolith]

right, argument about how it looks aside

[velvet hull]

i think heavy is actually fine where he is in tf2c

[median monolith]

its utterly unusable on attack besides payload, i dont disagree that it isnt nearly as unredeemable as people place it out to be but i think if shotguns were more usable on heavy like they are in classic then it'd work fine

[velvet hull]

the only thing i would really want is a new shotgun and a primary that makes him benefit from shotgun usage

[velvet hull]

agreed

[polar bridge]

Just because Brass Beast is fun in Live TF2 doesn’t mean it belongs in TF2C, TF2C is not just “TF2 but better”

[median monolith]

well at least we agree on that

[polar bridge]

The core concept of the brass beast doesn’t really fit with how the team designs weapons

[velvet hull]

yup

[polar bridge]

Brass beast is a great weapon that is called a bad weapon for zero reason

But it doesn’t belong in TF2C

[hard chasm]

imo it isn't a bad weapon but just horribly designed it forces heavy to basically stay still and overcompensates for something heavy's already the best at

[velvet hull]

plus heavy isn't as much of a generalist like he is in live, so the brass beast would be an upgrade since he's a defensive specialist

[median monolith]

heavy's actually less of a generalist in live than he is here due to being faster

[hard chasm]

also the aircraft cannon exists

[polar bridge]

If TF2C heavy got a new minigun I’d want to focus on a weapon that rewards continuous tracking rather than specializing IMO

[median monolith]

for one KOCW got something right with that, though i dont like the specific way they did it

[velvet hull]

i think spy is the only class who NEEDS some of the unlocks from live

like the YER and C&D

[polar bridge]

C&D is a weird weapon

[velvet hull]

it's honestly my preferred watch

[dawn helm]

i would like a fan like weapon without the stun bullshit

[median monolith]

YER...

[velvet hull]

plus the YER is based off of the TFC knife (or at least looks like it) so it'd fit well

[polar bridge]

C&D on paper sounds like it should be a terrible weapon banished to “early live TF2 mistakes” but… it isn’t?

It just works

[velvet hull]

like yeah ik it's an aladdin reference but tell me it doesn't look like the tfc knife

[polar bridge]

I still don’t know if it belongs in TF2C, I like that spies are always moving. There is no time to sit and take a breather

[velvet hull]

i think scout fills that niche better

maybe my playstyle is making me biased

[polar bridge]

I’d want a dev to weigh in specifically why it hasn’t been added

I can understand why other weapons weren’t, even ones like DF or the direct hit

Since all TF2 live weapons that were going to be added verbatim have already been added I’d like to know

[velvet hull]

probably forgot about it given how nobody in live uses it lol

[median monolith]

well originally it was so they dont get sued out of existence and not wanting to, the sourcemod thing tho makes it so its all open, just up to dev's preference

[velvet hull]

the steamworks page for distributing sourcemods also basically says "no mods that give people all the weapons for free" but i don't think they'd care given how different tf2c is

[dawn helm]

90% of the weapons on this list would be a pain in the ass to deal with or balance, imagine fighting against a sniper using the hunting revolver + the old darwins it would be cancer

[velvet hull]

yeah i didn't think that one through

i generally like that the tf2c team are trying to do their own thing, but at the same time i would love to see their takes on some weapons like the natascha or frontier justice

[dawn helm]

the natascha takes peoples movement away in a movement shooter

idk how you could rework that

[velvet hull]

maybe make it so it only applies the slowdown from behind? so if you try to run away you get punished

it sounds terrible but it'd be at least interesting

forcing people to engage with heavy

[median monolith]

the natascha just makes you and the enemy slow

you kill slower and kind of suck, but you also completely counter any class that depends on movement or that are trying to exploit your speed to flee

[dawn helm]

to be honest heavy is lacking in interesting primaries in tf2

most of them are side grades or slow gameplay down on an already slow class

[median monolith]

heavy never got anything that did something to his playstyle besides the lunchboxes and I GUESS the steak

in face he only got slower over the years and became more forced into a singular playstyle

[velvet hull]

banana too but even then it's just the sandvich but for roamer heavies

[median monolith]

well, eatables in general

point stands

[velvet hull]

yup

[median monolith]

lemme tell ya i think heavy would be significantly more popular if he got the AAC or similar

[dawn helm]

i would like to see more interesting weapons from live be inplemented in an interesting way like the air strike or the dragons fury

[median monolith]

instantly, something to use if you're tired of the minigun

[dawn helm]

aacs range is batshit insane

other than that its fun

[velvet hull]

i think heavy in general is a class that is just kinda stuck as is
the AAC is the only different thing the tf2c devs could do for him besides melee heavy and even then that's a joke playstyle

so i think we're stuck with his playstyle, not that im complaining cuz i love heavy

[median monolith]

i disagree, i think its just that live tf2 never cared to explore him

to this day i am very curious about what type of things they would have in store for if heavy won the update, though, considering what pyro got was an awful rework and a few godawful weapons, maybe im glad heavy didnt win

[velvet hull]

i think the AAC explores all facets of what's possible with a unique heavy primary (projectile, single shot, explosive)

[median monolith]

its still hitscan

[jolly sage]

what about a heavy flamethrower

like a fireball launcher

[median monolith]

also again, i still disagree

[dawn helm]

lets keep fire on the fire class

[median monolith]

considering stuff like the RPG exists, it doesnt need to be entirely orthogonal to stock to work

[velvet hull]

you could give him a support focused minigun like the natascha i guess

[jolly sage]

if heavy can become an explosives class i see no reason why he shouldn't be allowed to play with fire as well

[velvet hull]

they did that in 2011

[jolly sage]

in fact you know what, i'll be right back

[median monolith]

considering the AAC is that without fire and still hitscan it couldve worked if they cared enough

honestly thats how id describe the result of VALVe's method of balancing

it could've worked, if they cared enough

[velvet hull]

yeah true

i think csgo had a big thing to do with it too

around the time they were developing csgo tf2 updates slowed down

more specifically new weapons

[median monolith]

most likely, its not unfair, the game was like. 5 or 6 years old atp with games that generally last a year or two

[velvet hull]

even then valve made csgo last around a decade

im sure they could have made tf2 a long lasting constantly updated experience like csgo if they wanted to

but csgo is more marketable

and adding new unlocks to tf2 wouldn't make them a lot of money given how weapons pretty quickly drop in value after the first couple days to a week

valve isn't a small dev team doing it for passion like the tf2c team, they have a real company to run

which sucks but it's true

[median monolith]

tbf tf2 is long lasting even if not constantly updated

its technically live service but its a weird early one that didnt build the game around it, so if content dries up then it can still exist

its nearly old enough to legally sign contracts with a playerbase measured in six digits or three digit with a K, that's really good

(sorry im awful at math)

[dawn helm]

tf2 is old enough to "befriend" my mother

[median monolith]

https://tenor.com/view/pixel-riding-bike-tricycle-trike-bike-gif-10750808240806828172

[velvet hull]

i think that's more so because of how it's free, has a dedicated fanbase, and because it's not like anything else on the market

yeah overwatch exists but you wouldn't catch most people dead playing that game nowadays

[median monolith]

oh true but that doesnt decrease the genuine skill and luck within tf2 still being relevant

[velvet hull]

yup

and there's obvious stuff like the artstyle

wow we got really off track

[median monolith]

anyways, digressing

i think there are very few ideas in retail tf2 that couldnt work with effort put into doing it, tf2c already proves that, its just a question of what ideas are worth putting effort into and if the effort is well spent

[velvet hull]

i think a lot of the 2008 - 2010 weapons could work in tf2c, with things 2011 or younger not generally fitting

[median monolith]

ehh, that's a subjective line

[velvet hull]

obviously with some reworks or redesigns

[dawn helm]

tf2 is a lot slower than tf2c due to how many of the weapons work

[polar bridge]

Heavily disagree. 2008-2010 weapons were overall pretty bad for the game and set a very bad precedent for future weapons, but then eventually they completely gave up on coherent weapon philosophy with 2012

[median monolith]

tbf stuff like the ubersaw and blutsauger is in that camp, both weapons whose only downside on lauch was no random crits

[polar bridge]

Sorry, 2010-2011

[velvet hull]

agreed

some 2010 stuff could work but they'd need reworks

maybe im just biased because i would kill for the frontier justice

[polar bridge]

I just don’t see the value in something like the frontier justice

Is it fun? Yeah of course

But I don’t see how TF2C would be better for it added

[dawn helm]

honestly an overdose variant in tf2c would be nice

[polar bridge]

Medic has enough stuff in TF2C rn tbh

I think medic is unironically good for a few years

[velvet hull]

you could use it as an offense engineer which tf2c could use

engineer should stay best on defense but still decent on offense imo

[median monolith]

except primaries, which is very much a white whale of tf2c

[velvet hull]

just not the powerhouse he is on defense

[polar bridge]

Offensive engineer is a separate issue TF2C needs to work on. I wouldn’t be opposed if frontier justice was the whip cream on more TF2C focused weapons like a new sentry

Sort of to hammer home an offensive engineer sentry

[velvet hull]

i had the idea of a shotgun sentry but i doubt they would ever do that

[polar bridge]

Shotgun sentry is cooking

[ripe breach]

They tried a fire sentry once I think

And a nail sentry

[median monolith]

they tried a nailsentry for sure

yeeee

though... i have an idea for that

[polar bridge]

Nail sentry is a really fascinating concept

I hope it gets revisited

@ripe breach is it canned for good?

[median monolith]

i dont know if the vf4 staff guy would knwo for sure :p

[ripe breach]

Considering we know about it, I would assume so

But thats speculation, yeah

[velvet hull]

they should do a sentry where when you build it you instantly win

[jolly sage]

does this mean.....overpowered is scrapped too...?

[velvet hull]

it's been scrapped for a while now

[ripe breach]

Overpowered never event got into development my guy

[jolly sage]

https://tenor.com/view/mario-crying-crying-mario-stairs-gif-20008055

[median monolith]

that's been a vague idea for 3.0 since like

2020

[polar bridge]

I mean the post he’s referring to since I’m too lazy to check

[median monolith]

if theyre doing it, it's very low priority

[ripe breach]

Pretty sure it being 3.0 was a joke

[median monolith]

point stands, dont get your hopes up

[celest anvil]

was there ever any spy weapons we knew about

[median monolith]

cut from tf2c or cut from live tf2

[velvet hull]

there are some cut weapons in a file in the tf2c vpks i think

i don't remember where they are or what they were

[celest anvil]

tf2c

[median monolith]

iirc just a ballistic knife

[velvet hull]

let me check

[celest anvil]

do we have any clue what it did

[jolly sage]

fym ballistic knife

how can a knife be ballistic

[median monolith]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_knife

you push a button and it throws itself

[jolly sage]

they were just making all kinds of doohickeys back then weren't they

[chrome pollen]

That's just the tip of the iceberg lad, people are at their most creative when the subject at hand is finding new ways to kill people.

[velvet hull]

grenade launcher with slam fire sounds like hell

[jolly sage]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistol_sword like look at this shit bro this is textbook overkill

[velvet hull]

we got off topic again </3

not that there's much to discuss until a dev comes in and adds fuel to the fire of conversation

[chrome pollen]

I don't know if you are new here lad, but so far, I have never seen a dev interacting with a weapon ideas thread, ever.

[velvet hull]

i've seen it like once or twice

they prolly just lurk the threads

[jolly sage]

i got a dev to one of my ideas once

[chrome pollen]

😮

Let me check the orb

[median monolith]

a few times they've been around

[chrome pollen]

I imagine they lurk around. They say nothing, but they see everything

And chat about it in their cave

[jolly sage]

the dev cave

[velvet hull]

nah it's prolly more like a shack

they live in that one building on dustbowl stage 2 point a

[median monolith]

dang, a lil fancy

[chrome pollen]

And under the shack is a cave

[fossil epoch]

https://tenor.com/view/eye-of-sauron-gif-27185045

[heavy flint]

I do agree with this sentiment. Although, since the Devs did say they want the mod to harken back to the 08 - 09 era of TF2, then they could only go with weapons that were added in that period of time

[polar bridge]

I don’t know if that’s the design philosophy to a T

I think it’s moreso they want to avoid the mistakes of weapon additions then stick to any central theme

The rejuvenator is most definitely not an early 2008-2009 weapon, and the addition of beta content also complicates that assessment

[median monolith]

that'd be more 2003-2007

(give or take as they spent the last three or four years on what became tf2 instead of invasion or BOH)

[velvet hull]

that's pretty much what i agree with, i think the older weapons from live are best for tf2c which is why i picked mostly 2008 - 2009 weapons in my examples

especially the cloak & dagger

c&d would be perfect for the 2008 / 2009 theme

even if tf2c isn't themed around 2008 / 2009, and is instead a reimagining, it'd still fit in perfectly

[heavy flint]

at the very least, I'd want them to add weapons to give each of the mercs at least 2 different options for each type of weapon. So since Scout only has one melee, give him the Sandman. Since Sniper only has one secondary, give him either jarate or the razorback. So on and so forth

[velvet hull]

i agree, i think their end goal is 2 unlocks for each slot but i think that'll be a long ways away

i just want a reworked sandman for scout since the bat is so terrible

[ripe breach]

The C&D is an interesting idea but I personally don't think that the weapon itself is very interesting

[velvet hull]

i don't think every unlock has to be groundbreaking

[ripe breach]

It's not as bad as people would lead you to believe, it's decent, but I'd rather see a cloak that's interesting

[velvet hull]

sometimes it's nice to have some variety as plain as it is

[ripe breach]

You say that, but the duller unlocks that are close to stock are usually the least picked

[chrome pollen]

I think the old school design philosophy is more about how the game looks and the story, and less about how weapons are played. The weapon design philosophy that weapons should feel more unique and change more about how you play the game is definitely something they are going for, but not necessarily related to the "classic" aspect of the thing.

[ripe breach]

People like interesting weapons. I dont think the C&D is very interesting. I can't see it getting picked very often at any rate, when the alternatives are stock and the cocaine watch

Both of which offer generally more engaging and interesting gameplay than the C&D

If people wanted plain weapons, you'd see a lot more people running the hunting revolver and l'escampette than you do

[velvet hull]

people don't use l'escampette because it's a terrible trade-off

[hard chasm]

not rlly

[jolly sage]

every game i've been in has had at least one le french name spy

[ripe breach]

The l'escampette is decent

It's just kinda dull

[velvet hull]

more move speed for less distance overall

[ripe breach]

It's balanced, but its just meh

[jolly sage]

for the past few months i mean

[hard chasm]

it's a good mobility option it doesn't really need to be the next deadringer

[ripe breach]

It's okay but its not a very fun or engaging weapon imo

[jolly sage]

well i mean it isn't a weapon

it's a utility item

[chrome pollen]

When I first saw the description, knowing that TF2 classic is this game that focus on weapons that change a lot. I thought it would be a even greater speed boost with no invisibility.

Just a gotta go fast watch

Maybe what we have is better, but it was funnier in my mind.

[jolly sage]

me watching the spy pop in at mach 10 and backstab our medic before exiting the scene without so much as a scratch

[ripe breach]

Doesnt mean it cant be interesting

[chrome pollen]

That would be awesome

He should also make wheel drifting sounds while running

[jolly sage]

yeah i know, i'm just being a pedant

[median monolith]

lescamppette is FINE... but i wouldn't mind it being given something

[ripe breach]

It's fine

but thats it

[celest anvil]

L'escampette is amazing but it's just

Looooud

LOOOOOOUD

Incredibly incredibly fun watch but good luck getting picks with it in a map that isn't payload

Sometimes people are genuinely deaf but holy shit it feels bad to decloak in a corner and have two people start acting up cause they heard you

[celest anvil]

Am i in the minority for thinking the weapon is amazing?

The only thing I'd give it is make it like, a bit less loud

More than stock but less than what it is

Or make it a stock decloak sound with more propagation

[smoky merlin]

I'm surprised nobody ever brings up The Classic in these convos. It's from TFC and could probably work in TF2C

[median monolith]

honest to god

i forgot about it existing

[smoky merlin]

Fair, most people have forgotten it

[median monolith]

which is unfortunate as its unironically my favorite rifle

[somber ember]

I never understood why it wasn't there. Especially sad for me bc it's the only sniper i use

[shadow fern]

I genuinely believe that none of these would get added, still doing something similar to what they did.

I'd honestly sooner believe the Dragon's Fury gets added before any of these.

[fallen swift]

HOLY SHIT SOMEONE ELSE WHO THINKS THE FRONTIER JUSTICE IS BS

Ive felt like a crazy person for the past 5 or so years cuz I hate the frontier justice

[median monolith]

just wish it'd make his eyes glow or something, make the sentry have crits around it

[fallen swift]

I just think its BS to get punished for killing an engineers sentry

[median monolith]

fair i sppose

[fallen swift]

To give my 2 cents on the post though:
Force-A-Nature - A double barrel scattergun would work as a good foil to the nailgun, wouldnt be mad at all if it got added
Sandman (would need a rework) - Ehhh, Im not against them adding a baseball bat melee for scout but idk what you could really do to differentiate it from the sandman/wrap assassin
Buff Banner - Maybe? It sorta doesnt jive with tf2c soldier I feel and I think soldier doesnt need any support really
Pain Train - Sorta just a boring sidegrade, If they want to do an objective based weapon they should just do something like the leaked "Specialist" scattergun
Backburner - I wouldnt be opposed to it but it doesnt do enough for pyros playstyle to warrent it getting added to tf2c imo
Natascha - I dont see what the natascha would bring to tf2c, it sucks in live tf2 and i dont imagine it would be any better in tf2c
Frontier Justice - already said my thoughs on the frontier justice, it sorta sucks to fight
Blutsauger - A medic primary thats more focused on sustainability/combat would be cool to see ngl, hope they do something like this in the future
Old Darwin's Danger Shield (+25 max health) - 175 hp sniper, nuff said really
Your Eternal Reward - Ehh I like the idea of the disguise on stab but idk if the YER fits tf2cs style
Cloak & Dagger - Would act as a good foil to the scamper/cloak watch, wouldnt mind seeing it in tf2c at all

At this point of TF2c's lifespan Id much rather them add concepts similar to weapons in TF2 rather than just port them with small changes

[median monolith]

once again the buff banner would be a more interesting type of thing to do on heavy

[fallen swift]

https://tenor.com/view/team-fortress2-heavy-maybe-sniff-well-see-gif-16650546

i just dont think anyone really needs support based weapons besides engie and medic

[prime basin]

Will these weapons just come back automatically in the steam release? I have no idea, just asking.

[fallen swift]

why would they?

[median monolith]

they'd have to be added on purpose

[prime basin]

Cuz it will be made with the tf2 source code?

Which will give the ability to use items?

I have no idea

[oblique niche]

I have always enjoyed the "super burst scout" style that came with the FaN and later the Soda Popper

ie it reloads its whole clip and fires out a whole lotta lead

And then leaves him completely primary-less for a bit

I think with secondaries like the brick, a weapon that fulfils a similar vibe is cool cause you empty the clip and then quickswap to finish the job/get away

But we don't need either of those weapons in their exact form

[lusty mango]

“This weapon is ass cheeks”

literally the coolest thing ever.

[velvet hull]

i would rather have tfc's incendiary cannon than dragons fury tbh

[crystal latch]

The natasha, Backburner, and danger sheild is kinda insane

I agree with the general idea though, I'd much rather have live weapons/adjacents be added on the basis of their quality and how well they execute what they're trying to do rather than release date

[lusty mango]

You want the Scorch shot on Crack

[velvet hull]

i meant more so in name and visually speaking

[uncut tide]

JAAAARATE

[polar bridge]

Why?

Oh, I see just in aesthetic

Yeah the dragons fury in TF2 is bland and doesn’t fit pyro’s weapon styling

[lusty mango]

True, but that because it’s a contract item. Unlike Pyro’s other scrapped together weapons. This is one of Mann Co’s products like the rest of the mercs do.

Or at least how I see it.

[carmine fjord]

Nerfed because of VALVe negligence of fixing exploits brought by being able to pick weapons on the floor xddd

[median monolith]

that's three times theyve nerfed a weapon to fix a bug or exploit instead of fixing the exploit

[carmine fjord]

To be fair only weapons to be worth reinventing that aren't here yet are gunslinger, force a nature and beggar's

Everything else is kind of balooney

[polar bridge]

Gunslinger should definitely not be in TF2C in any capacity

Fundamentally broken

[median monolith]

no

there are very few weapons that are "fundamentally" broken and it's mostly just the DR and older Sandman

[ripe breach]

The gunslinger is not fundamentally broken

It is fundamentally annoying

[median monolith]

id still have to disagree

[polar bridge]

Maybe using “fundamentally broken” is inappropriate but I do firmly believe that a weapon that approaches anywhere near the same niche as the gunslinger does not belong in TF2C

#1384189216719634564 message

[pale hare]

Just a small side note: I always thought a solution to that is a small, single, and expensive following sentry that would stick with you.

So none of that deploying nonsense but rather a mobile teammate that has your back.

Back on topic: No, it's not a good idea to do that since TF2C is trying to be much more of it's own thing.

[median monolith]

i think the gunslinger is fine and works well for the purpose it was made for without being particularly overpowered if ripe for retuning

[polar bridge]

The problem is that it’s annoying

It circumvents engineers entire design philosophy of being a ramp up class and allows him to instantly shut down an area for scouts and pyros straight out of spawn

[median monolith]

so is pyro but im not clamoring for her to be nerfed

[polar bridge]

Pyro isn’t really annoying and is in a decent spot

[polar bridge]

I think redeployment is theoretically fine as a concept if the total DPS is capped at a meaningful level

If engineers have to spend time at spawn to build a sentry but then can redeploy it fast I think that is, at least theoretically, an okay solution to the offensive engineer problem

A walking buddy might be too out there as a concept and sounds like a bad idea but I would be lying if I said I wasn’t curious on a playtest

[median monolith]

but pyro is a bit of a divisive class, however i can find her annoying at base without also then saying it fundementally doesnt work... because its annoying?

[polar bridge]

The gunslinger being annoying and the gunslinger fundamentally not working in TF2C are two separate issues

[ripe breach]

I do think it's also worth noting that the devs tried to do something like the gunslinger and it got
1: scrapped
2: eventually the same idea became jump pads

[median monolith]

i thought that was more so cause of the catapult cut retail weapon

[lusty mango]

DF: Ahem?

[carmine fjord]

This is hilarious

considering pyro has like a 100% DPS increase here and scout has nailgun xddd

oh yeah and the pistol spread buff

that would massively nerf minis

(That would be the only good thing of the pistol spread buff)

[polar bridge]

You have a point for the pyro but for scout that’s meaningless unless the Engie just puts it out in the open

[carmine fjord]

where... where do you expect a minisentry to be

otherwise just make a level 3

[polar bridge]

Uh, where do you? Do you just put mini sentries in areas where they can easily be killed at a distance?

The point is to put them somewhere devious and hidden so they get people off guard, to protect a flank, or in combat

The nail gun makes zero difference in any of those scenarios

[median monolith]

i mean it could just have normal sentry turning speed then scouts wouldn't have as much trouble

[swift palm]

Wish there was a few more weapons from tf2 here anyways

[carmine fjord]

yes it does

[lusty mango]

I wouldn’t say 100% more like a 10-12% increase.

[carmine fjord]

90-100 starting dps vs 150-173

[valid iris]

I don’t think they intend on adding more live weapons, but if they did they should totally rework the mine layer into a Scottish resistance

[valid iris]

This is totally fair, minis aren’t unbalanced but they’re not fun

Though I’d be interested to see how weapons like the nailgun or RPG might help with that…

Still, I think a faster sentry has potential but I’m not fond of a cheaper sentry

That’s what makes minis so annoying imo

[celest anvil]

I'd prefer an easier to set up lvl 2 tbh

[lusty mango]

i was looking at "Per particle." since in live its starts at 6.5 (at point blank) and tf2c has 7.2 per flame (at PB)

[celest anvil]

It's very fun to put a lvl2 on a random corner people don't expect

[carmine fjord]

But I said DPS originally...

[lusty mango]

what if a sentry shot AA rounds. firing in explosive burst. i see this for a level 1, not sure what a Level 2/3 would do.

[lusty mango]

yeah. but if the the particles are not double of live, then the DPS wouldn't be 100% more. it's a lower percentage.

[valid iris]

I’m open to that, yeah

[celest anvil]

You should be able to build sentry busters

[carmine fjord]

That's because you forgor how stock flamethrower works in live

Initial damage is 50% less

[lusty mango]

oh wait, i think i see a difference. the wiki says the flames in tf2c have an attack interval of 0.04 (possibly when the flames are made and hit?) but live has an attack interval of 0.03 but only counts every 0.075.

[carmine fjord]

And ramps up to 200% with constant hits on someone

[lusty mango]

yeah, I know about the HEAT ramp up. that's the 6.5 base

13 is the max

[celest anvil]

In other news i had a fucked up dream last night where the ballistic knife was back but you needed to get like 3 normal backstabs before the knife projectile could actually backstab people

And it was really weird because i was aiming the ballistic knife myself due to dream logic instead of a mouse

[carmine fjord]

Also yeah TF2C flamethrower deals damage per particle

Live TF2 deals damage depending on how much time a particle is inside someone

[valid iris]

I always forget they changed that in live

Never understood why, always thought the flamethrower felt balanced enough

But then again, live TF2 stinky

[lusty mango]

yes yes, that's what im saying.

if each particale in tf2c counts as a hit, unlike live based on a 0.075 window. then the total amount of hits a flame can do in a second is roughly 14 in live and 20 in tf2c. that's a pretty big difference.

[lusty mango]

always complaing about W +M1, gets changed to increase accuracy, makes W + M1 janky but sometimes better then the old one. valve and their spaghetti special.

[runic storm]

Flamethrowers calculate damage in a unique way. Instead of the normal "deal X damage per hit", the flamethrower has a total dps value and divides it by the firerate.
Increasing the flamethrowers fire rate in tf2c should not change the total dps or ammo consumption

[lusty mango]

it's not about the fire rate, it's that there's a window in live that "counts" whether or not a flame "hits."

live spits a flame every 0.03 seconds but only counts a hit each 0.075. it's all janky decimals and junk

[drowsy wasp]

I actually think the Sandman has great flavor, if it were adjusted to apply a damage vulnerability instead of a slow and the Brick didnt already exist, it would be great in TF2C

Force a Nature and YER have good potential, but I think all these other suggestions are rather insane picks

[drowsy wasp]

I see people say this and wonder how much they've actually played Spy

cause the L'Escampette might as well be a straight upgrade

4 less seconds of cloak is nothing when the speed boost means you can get to your destination just as quickly as with stock, and pick up ammo packs with ease to keep the cloak going for far longer

the miniscule amount of cloak drain on hit doesnt matter when the sluggishness of stock means that if an enemy damages you, you're already dead anyway; the L'Escampette actually gives you a fighting chance to stab someone and survive

you have the Big Earner on command with no downside, doesnt matter if you hit the stab or you fucked up and need to get away or you're just using it to get through a tough crowd to set up your stab

but I digress

[oblique niche]

I always see people saying like "oh I can't wait for tf2c release so they can hopefully use live's fixed flamethrower"
But whenever I use the live flamethrower it's always the jankiest shit I've ever seen

[drowsy wasp]

I agree with NovaCancy, the only way I could see the C&D being a good inclusion is if Trotim's proposal was implemented #1379415417667453008 message

[lusty mango]

Tell me about it, the Ramp up damage alone is Dodgy as hell. Hence why I just use it as a softener and go Shotgun blasting with the Panic attack.

[ripe breach]

Hard disagree on this

The “sluggishness” of stock means that someone tracking you down isnt a death sentence, because you can escape with precise movement

The l’escampette means that if someone gets lucky, you’re a lot closer to fucked

I dont see either as being substantially better, and I don’f see the l’escampette as that fun or interesting

To me, it feels like a stat swap

This sounds crazy, but it feels like the cloak and dagger

[crystal latch]

There's definitely a few weapons here that I think could push their mechanics a little further

[drowsy wasp]

I've tried going back to stock and it feels worthless in comparison

[crystal latch]

This and the fishwacka come to mind

[drowsy wasp]

if you get detected at all with stock you just die

[ripe breach]

No?

Not if you have good movement

[drowsy wasp]

if you have good movement, you're better with the watch that can push it even further

[ripe breach]

Movement isnt always “hee hoo me run fast”

[drowsy wasp]

get across gaps you normally couldn't with stock, juke the opponent out more easily, etc

[ripe breach]

The l’escampette doesnt push movement further

It just makes you move in a different way

Same shtick as the c&d

[crystal latch]

The L'escampette let's you long jump though

[ripe breach]

You can get out of some situations you couldnt before and get screwed over in situations you wouldnt have before

Saying it is substantially better than stock is silly when the differences between them are so miniscule

Its a different way of doing things that will definitely appeal to people who arent good at the more precise movement stock can require. That doesn’t make it a fundamentally interesting weapon.

[drowsy wasp]

what situations would you be screwed over with the L'Escampette?

I guess if youre wanting to stay in the same area even after an enemy has already found you out?

[crystal latch]

The loud decloak sound is probably the biggest actual downside of the L'escampette

[ripe breach]

If a lick of fire touched you, if someone tracks you down for a bit, crossfire in general, spam, and ofc actually wanting to decloak near people

[crystal latch]

you can hear that across the map sometimes I swear

[ripe breach]

You have so much less wiggle room with it and it introduces a new level of variability that I frankly dont think makes it worth equipping

[drowsy wasp]

I dont think any "precise movement" with the stock watch would save you when you're on fire for everyone to see

at that point you're a sitting duck

[ripe breach]

Moreso that with stock I’m evading being touched by the fire

With the l’escampette, there goes all my cloak and my speed

[drowsy wasp]

at least with the L'Escampette you can create some distance before your cloak gets shredded

[ripe breach]

And yes you can avoid fire with precise movement if you know what you’re doing

[drowsy wasp]

with stock it doesn't matter if you have your full cloak meter when the cloak gives no benefits and you're stuck in the Pyro's range

[ripe breach]

The longer cloak time of stock means that instead of having to escape (which is much riskier since I’ll be more likely to get hit by fire), I can simply sit and avoid the flames and wait it out

[drowsy wasp]

and in my experience crossfire just isn't that big a deal; you lose maybe half a second of cloak, but its a worthy tradeoff to get to an ammo pack, and you run fast enough that enemies cant follow up on cloak blink in the midst of battle

[ripe breach]

Thats not to say the speed isnt good or useful sometimes, there are situations where it helps, or where I wish I’d had it equipped

And I’m not arguing that its bad

But it does give you less wiggle room in general, and I find that its gameplay loop doesn’t offer anything substantially different or interesting for me.

[drowsy wasp]

for me it is the reason I enjoy TF2C Spy as much as I do

[ripe breach]

This feels like arguing whether the tomislav or stock is better to me

[drowsy wasp]

I cant go back to live TF2 Spy

well, there's a few other reasons for that like spawn outlines, disguise glitches, cosmetics

[ripe breach]

Thats fair, its definitely easier and doesnt require the same type of movement as stock, so it has a lower barrier to entry

Which isnt a bad thing

But I wouldnt say its substantially better than stock if you’re already an experienced spy

[drowsy wasp]

the most notable thing about the Tomislav is the silent killer

SquimJim made a video comparing the Tomislav and stock's time to kill and it is nearly identical on every front https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYnpRK9A07E

[ripe breach]

Dont take that comparison too literally, it was meant to illustrate that I feel as if discussing which watch is better is kinda pointless due to how small the differences between them are for me

[drowsy wasp]

fair

[ripe breach]

Genuinely it might just be because I’m a spy main who has been playing with stock for a while, so I want something that pushes its mechanic a bit further than the l’escampette does

[drowsy wasp]

I just figured I'd interject cause I was surprised by just how little the Tomislav difference truly was

[ripe breach]

Yeah, when you have a big ass minigun, a small damage debuff doesnt matter much

Its not even that I dislike the l’escampette or don’t use it sometimes, but I find that it generally boils down to personal preference on movement style more than the weapons actual balance

[drowsy wasp]

fair viewpoint, I just take issue with the idea that its a "plain weapon" and would be better off being traded for something with more bells and whistles

[ripe breach]

In comparison to most weapons we’ve gotten lately, I’d say its missing something

It feels really generic

[celest anvil]

100% true

Good luck getting the jump on snipers ever

[celest anvil]

I just think it's simple and clean really

The loud ass decloak is a problem but i like what l'escampette offers when it works

[swift palm]

what if cloak n dagger was like stock watch but 30 seconds long and half of your cloak meter is removed on hit

[lusty mango]

I mean, they basically are. A 20% slower firing speed doesn’t come into play that often when you already shred through everything.

[olive mason]

Devs! Give us a rescue ranger like weapon and my life is yours

[ripe breach]

In what way?

[olive mason]

A healing tool with a large range

[ripe breach]

Ehhh, yeah idk about that one chief

[olive mason]

Why not

[ripe breach]

Generally doesnt really add much to the game as a whole beyond making buildings tankier with less risk

[olive mason]

Makes sense

But in general i wanted more tools for engi for better maintenance

And with the rescue ranger we would build more sentries in some crazy spots

[ripe breach]

Jump pads and coilgun do the latter well enough already

[olive mason]

Yes we can build

But i feel its kinda complicated to make its maintenance

[lusty mango]

Boo!

[swift palm]

please dont scare people like that, almost went into a coma again at seeing your comment

[carmine fjord]

The question is if this is a good idea

[crystal latch]

yes???

as long as you don't go the wrangler route and take something from him that he has to play around (like self defense) then it should be fine

[lusty mango]

I get that a lot, I think I have Undetectable stacked onto me.

[drowsy wasp]

ideally the Rescue Ranger should allow Engineers to not have to babysit their buildings as much, so they can fire a few bolts after it's been damaged by a failed attempt and cover another area closer to the frontline like where their Dispenser is at

but because it's not only just as good at healing while it's being attacked, it's more efficient in metal cost than the Wrench, it just ends up with you babysitting the Sentry but from an angle where the enemy can't damage you too

[ripe breach]

Well yeah, thats the appeal

[lusty mango]

i also hate the yoink mechanic. shit, cut that out all together and i'd say maybe.

[drowsy wasp]

I don't hate it but it should be a separate weapon

[valid iris]

It needs to be a separate weapon if the mechanic exists

[crystal latch]

I don't think i agree

Id rather see an increase in cost, so like instead of 100 metal it takes maybe 130 or even a full amount of metal to tele one of your buildings

Especially with how punishing it can be for smaller scale repositioning with the marked for death

[drowsy wasp]

the mark-for-death feels like an odd inclusion

it's like they knew it would be OP on the Rescue Ranger on top of everything else but added a vestigial downside in a vague effort to justify it

if the alt-fire were its own weapon I'd just remove the mark-for-death

[crystal latch]

The mark for death is vestigal to you??? I thought it was a pretty severe downside

[ripe breach]

Eh, maybe if you frequently have enemies in your backline

[valid iris]

It’s not that it necessarily feels OP honestly and more so that it’s just frustrating

It’s like a boss in an RPG healing the majority of their HP right before you’re about to land the finishing blow

I think it’s definitely fair if you’ve only got one Engineer, I think that might be why the team have been struggling to give him something tbh

Engineer feels like he’s already in a really good place if you’ve got just one extra Engineer, but he then feels way too strong with three or more and not strong enough with just one

I think a rescue ranger type weapon should exist, but I dunno how you’d balance it without nerfing the wrong details

Maybe give it the inability to heal friendly buildings? That sounds kinda harsh, but it would force you to stay alive to benefit, and sacrifice your own damage

[crystal latch]

Id space out the damage with a longer reload/firing rate and make it at most equal to the wrench efficiency wise

[lusty mango]

it's probably tagged on for when you actually yoink out a building. since it doesn't apply when building. only hauling.

[median monolith]

id argue engie stacking is nowhere near as strong as it is in live

but honestly two or more engies is required to make engie fun since it exponentially lessens the pressure on you