#Offensive Engie weapon (open discussion)

1087 messages · Page 2 of 2 (latest)

bleak trellis
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Simplistic weapons already exist, it’s not about making every weapon ultra complex, it’s about adding meaningful weapons

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And a weapon that facilitates a very fun and effective way to play Engie would be meaningful

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Complex weapons aren’t bad of course, but it’s so easy to over or under tune them, and Engie is a class that is so hard to balance in due part because one Engie is an entirely different beast compared to just two Engies

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Something that helps Engie on offense should come at the cost of co-op engineer

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Removing the ability to upgrade sentries is a good way of doing that

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As of now the two ideas I’m sold on is removing the ability to upgrade your gun, and increased health

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But I also think you could go further with less penalties on hauling buildings and indeed faster deploy time

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Doesn’t just have to be with your gun mind you

tall rover
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Just give him a harpoon gun. Right click yanks someone, 3 times before it breaks. Sounds offensive enough I think.

sage leaf
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I think I would be more comfortable with a new support weapon that caps your sentry level, this feels more appropriate?

sage leaf
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I can’t envision any other way that isn’t annoying or instantly meta

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Without play testing of course

bleak trellis
sage leaf
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The problem with something like the Jag is that “faster sentry deploy” is also extremely useful on a rapidly retreating frontline, or even a steady one since it means you can redeploy your sentry faster

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The Jag’s functionality would have to come at a major cost, but then it becomes useless

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So the benefit would have to be higher

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It can’t be too mobile, or it’s the mini sentry and it becomes annoying

bleak trellis
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What if the sentry deployed at its max rate when smacking it using the vanilla wrench

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At the cost of the ability to increase its deploy speed

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And maybe that could strictly be for redeployment

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Not building from scratch

sage leaf
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It could be a sentry that could only be healed/refilled by being moved? This is the idea that I had earlier where it’s mobility should be a byproduct of another core mechanic

bleak trellis
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That could work

sage leaf
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This sounds kind of awful saying it but I think there is a way to make this work

bleak trellis
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A similar loop to the mini sentry without the ability to just plop one down for free

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When it’s down, it’s down, but it’s more mobile

sage leaf
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Perhaps it’s a revolver type sentry that shoots six shots but needs to “rechamber” by being picked up and redeployed, but its redeployment speed is simply the gun popping up and being refilled

bleak trellis
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How much damage would you propose each shot deal?

sage leaf
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This forces the engineer to be mobile, keeps the rapid deployment, while avoiding the mini sentry issue of being able to be ignored

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Let me think about this

bleak trellis
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Could take one of @slow vector’s ideas and give it a slower lock on speed

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Ideally Engies should play around it similar to level 1s

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It’s less that it auto aims and kills for you, and more so it defends the stronghold alongside your own shotgun aim

sage leaf
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I think combining their idea for a level one works here but making it a single shot

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So basically the same overall DPS of a level one but for less time

bleak trellis
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And to reload it, you need to redeploy it

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Almost like a catapult

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Would need to be workshopped a bit, but it could be interesting

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I’d give it a shot

sage leaf
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Yes, but it’s a revolver because I am creatively bankrupt

bleak trellis
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Actually makes me think we need a suggestions server

sage leaf
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I’d like to theory craft it more, I think there is the makings of an interesting weapon here

bleak trellis
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A server that tries to implement different popular suggestions so we can see them in game

sage leaf
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It reminds me of trying to make custom weapon mods for good when I was younger lol

bleak trellis
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Though idk how you’d implement a custom sentry

sage leaf
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Would it be possible?

bleak trellis
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With what I know now, it’s possible to modify weapon stats to a certain extent, but I think a new building would require a custom script

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Would love to be proven wrong though ofc

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And I think it should be possible with vscript

sage leaf
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Definitely worth trying out

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Ultimately the best case scenario for a weapon like this working needs to be established

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What would a “successful” play with the weapon look like?

bleak trellis
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I think the successful weapon would ideally resemble the existing play style around level 1s, but be more mobile albeit easier to take down as any class without an engineer to defend it

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See my biggest hang up with minis isn’t their speed, I don’t like their fire rate but that’s not the core issue

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It’s their price

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100 Metal is cheap, but much leaves a lot of Engies hogging ammo packs to build more sentries, and focus less on his other buildings

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I feel like that’s another thing to consider

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Not just “avoid minis cuz live tf2 stinky” but think why

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What makes them not work

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Why would they be a bad inclusion in TF2C?

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Those are key to consider if you want to avoid mini cooties

sage leaf
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The issue that can’t really be ignored is just that they’re either incredibly annoying or completely trivial. Not a good design place to be in for your primary damage dealers. It exists to basically be a nuisance rather than a proper threat and that’s not really fun. It also kind of just ignores the core design of the engineer that he’s a ramp up class. He needs time. A gunslinger engineer right out of spawn can potentially shut down a point for certain classes immediately. Again, a nuisance weapon

shrewd pike
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Worst part is that, unlike stock, minisentries start dealing damage alot sooner with the better turn speed. So their positioning can be alot more lax and observent classes can't just hit S when they hear the beep

sage leaf
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Yeah. This is why I hope with the revolver concept me and Lambda were developing it still has to take the same amount of time as a level 1 sentry, just with a faster redeploy. Allows for mobility without annoyance

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A scout can easily take care of a level 1 with enough skill

bleak trellis
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I think I have to agree with the above

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It's the same problem the mine layer had, it wasn't the number of frags it gave you, but the number of classes who were shut down

marble bluff
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What if we give engineer a car, the mechanic sub class

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Drive around, run people over

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The car has a cup holder, so it also takes the dispenser into account

meager turret
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Asgore gameplay

unreal valve
sand fjord
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for full mobility as Sniper while headshotting people

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like I can see the nerfs as being too much but outright ignoring that is just a bad-faith argument

vernal solar
# sand fjord like I can see the nerfs as being too much but outright ignoring that is just a ...

The problem is that it hinges on the no-scoping headshots being seems as “the upside.” Leaving a half-way clunky mess that just doesn’t sound fun to use just saying it out loud so I can’t imagine how it would act in game.

Like 63 cross map headshots seem barely worth the hassle at that point due to the slower fire rate.

Hell in the original pitch they wanted the firing speed bonus was outright removed. So you were firing at stock speed per bullet. bones

wraith elm
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this thread is so long i cant scroll to the top

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but anyway itd be cool if engie got a build on hit shotgun

vernal solar
wraith elm
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you put a sentry down, start shooting at a guy and now your sentry is all built up

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shots probably wouldnt upgrade

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some offensive weapon that lets you build faster is what i want overall

wraith elm
sand fjord
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wouldnt be so bad for a Pyro to deal with if they could just get up to the damn thing

slow vector
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Engi should have a weapon that says slurs, agreed