ik-2

[vital inlet]

it is in the QM settings

[cloud lion]

ty. its straight up incompatable with vive wands as trackers

locks me into desktop animations

no this doesnt work

i was having this issue in the beta

i expected them to fix this before release

[spark junco]

Did you make a Canny report?

[cloud lion]

i did not

how do i do that

[spark junco]

https://feedback.vrchat.com/

[cloud lion]

thanks.

[lethal light]

you need to make sure the vive wands are declaring themselves as "generic tracker". This is done by flashing firmware I believe. TeH_Venom runs wands and might be able to help more, or just look in the #full-body-tracking channel where people were talking about it

[cloud lion]

no you dont

vrc has always detected additional tracked devices as trackers

[spark junco]

New IK system, new rules.

[cloud lion]

this isnt "new rules" this is literal feature removal

[oak pendant]

First, this is an issue that I'm looking in to. If controllers are used as trackers it can cause crashing. So currently only actual SteamVR GenericTracker devices are being passed in for calibration. But second, this has been in our documentation for ages: https://docs.vrchat.com/docs/full-body-tracking

Only change to that section in IK2.0 update was changing the number "three" to "eight" this has always been our official stance. But that said, I'd also like to get it working again.

In the meantime you can flash your device if you want it to work right now, but ofc that's at your own risk

[vital inlet]

Pls dont tell me i can freeze fullbody anymore, i would like to continue sleeping in vr but with new ik it is impossible.

[lethal bridge]

what about the new IK makes it impossible to sleep in VR?

[vital inlet]

when you turn off the controllers with trackers still on it disables fullbody and returns you to half body

with legacy ik it makes it so that your trackers dont anchor to world anymore

pls return it back it is annoying

[lethal light]

maybe look at the launch options as there is a freeze tracking on disconnect launch option the is probably what you are looking for

[vital inlet]

where is the launch options?

[lethal bridge]

https://docs.vrchat.com/docs/launch-options

[lethal light]

https://docs.vrchat.com/docs/ik-20-features-and-options
There is the IK-2 specific ones. Maybe if you would have read about the update you would have known this

[vital inlet]

I dont understand why not keep the old settings as default

[lethal light]

because the new settings are better for most people?

[vital inlet]

if more people favor the new settings then

but so far everyone i've talked to dislikes their fullbody being disabled when their controllers go out. But everyone i've talked to is on pcvr

🤷

[lethal light]

well, a lot of people that were in the beta preferred it that way, which is what the settings were based on. If you or anyone else dislike the default settings, switch it. There is plenty of communication about what can be tweaked and what it does

[vital inlet]

i hope the devs or whoever is making these decisions rethink this. I do not like my fullbody dropping when i turn off my controller or if they die.

[lethal light]

well then change it instead of complaining here

[vital inlet]

i did change it but anyone else asking for the old settings would have to add new launch options thru steam? And what about fbt on quest?

[lethal light]

Good thing FBT is not a thing now isn't it

[lethal light]

and yes...... that is what a launch option does

[oak pendant]

The one-handed locomotion mode is currently messing up the freeze on disconnect for hand controllers, if that's what you mean. Hand controller disconnect still needs to be meshed in better with the new system

[vital inlet]

i see thank you, i will wait patiently for a fix

[oak pendant]

The default option will still be to smoothly fall back disconnected trackers though. I'd like to eventually extend that to not only disconnects but tracker occlusion too

Some of the current launch options will likely find a home in the UI some time after the new main menu is released. So for people who can't use launch options that may help in the future

[vital inlet]

yey

[oak pendant]

that doesn't mean that every launch option will be in the UI someday though, but yeah many of the new IK2.0 one's would be nice to be able to toggle on the fly

I'd use them myself too, but current quick menu is crowded

[vital inlet]

thank you thank you for response

[rustic berry]

hey so VRC is trying to use my drink tracker as my chest tracker, even though the chest tracker is on and closer to the chest bone than the drink. if I turn off my drink tracker, then the chest tracker is immediately recognized correctly. the moment I turn on the other tracker, chest breaks

[lethal light]

Did you turn on the drink tracker before the chest tracker?
When you normally have them on, does it show all of the tracking balls or just not show the drink tracker (cause I assume the drink tracker is osc right?)?
I think the reconnecting could be the system that allows the trackers to save their position and it finds the drink tracker, replacing that as the chest tracker.
Cause, does vrchat allow more than 8 trackers to be showing at once? If not, that could be your issue.

[distant wren]

Hey, so me and my friend are having the same issue. When ever i go to calibrate it doesnt track my hip, even though my hip tracker is on and working. She had to put her avatar height to 6'4 for it to start tracking her hip, but no matter what height i put it on or what settings i use it wont track my hip. it tracks my feet, head and hands just fine...

help

[digital grove]

According to vrchat the calibration distance should make sure the drink tracker is ignored

Also wtf is a drink tracker lmao

What happens if you calibrate and afterwards you turn on the drink tracker

Also, can you see them all in steam?

I.e. is it possible that your extra tracker is overriding one of the other ones (i.e. paired to the same dongle) or something like that

[tulip acorn]

I have it over spine and have this problem, is there reference rig available or something? Since obviously normal humanoid does not work optimally in vrc?

[devout current]

It probably has a bit of an angle on it, which the IK defines as slack and puts it back where it thinks it should be.

I should have probably phrased my canny a bit better

[tulip acorn]

I put bones exactly above each other from hip to neck

and still there is little movement after calibration

less than before but it annoys me to no end

[devout current]

I mean my Avatar went from looking like this:

To looking like this:

What am I supposed to say? xD

[tulip acorn]

it is female avatar so boobs are moving even so slighly downwards

in my case

[devout current]

Anyway, Kung knows of this but it's currently a low priority.

Not much to say there for now, we just have to wait and seen when Kung will work on fixing this ^^

[tranquil cipher]

the solution right now is that you should have the spine straight in blender. no guarantees that that changes

[tulip acorn]

this is my hips>spine>chest

still issue is there slightly

[tranquil cipher]

I don't think that's the issue you have then. could you take a video of what's happening?

[tulip acorn]

I think it is the same since it was way more apparent before I made it completly straight

[tranquil cipher]

still need to see what's happening to have any idea how to help

[tulip acorn]

yeah for sure I will try to clip

[devout current]

Yeah ik, this evolves everyone who has this problem to 1. have the files to their Avatar and 2. know how to use Unity and Blender. Which is not really a solution to the people who can't do this. It would also be a bit against what IK 2.0 was supposed to be, make the IK basically spit out a good result not depending on how your Armature is set up. On the Rexouium for example, a straight spine and chest bone would not look really good, the model was made with a curved spine / chest in mind and also weight painted for that.

[tulip acorn]

I think I got it, this ever so slight movement happens when I do not look 100% straight during calibration

so previous issue was as described in ticket

[silent mirage]

Hello there, I notice that the 8th tracker cannot work properly with new IK 2.0 system.

[devout current]

That looks more like your SteamVR having lost tracking rather then a problem of VRChat

[silent mirage]

thank you 😊

[silent mirage]

sorry 😭 might need to collect more info for you.

[vital inlet]

I'm not sure if its IK related or not but I'm having an issue where in game the touch functionality of my right controller is very slow to respond to input. The problem is not present when I'm on my headsets menus. Quest 2 on cable link, PCVR.

[lethal bridge]

Vrchat won't recognize more than the first 8 additional tracked objects, meaning if you're using 11pnt then have a tracker for something else, you really need to make sure that the 8 body tracking ones are turned on first and indexed in SteamVR as so before turning on trackers for other things

[rustic berry]

I know, I did that. but the moment I turn on the 9th tracker, it steals the job of the chest tracker

[vast tangle]

What the fuck am I looking at

[marsh elm]

Bones

Probably a side view

[languid ferry]

Hey! so im having a problem where the new ik isnt tracking my hips, does anyone know how to fix that?

[strong sundial]

Try out all the stuff listed in this pinned post in #vrchat-general-1 #vrchat-general-1 message

The real height thing is usually the most important. The new ik relies on your height setting being accurate

[languid ferry]

thanks! will do

[devout current]

I've heard from a few friends that they don't really like the angle which your hands have when using Index Controllers. I don't think there were any changes for that in IK 2.0 though so I'm not really sure why they all have this complaint now and not before. But either way, after looking in the images a friend has provided on a canny, I have to say that I agree, the hands do not really line up with your hands on Index Controllers. They seem like they are tilted a bit to much inward.

Oh yeah, here is the canny I was talking about: https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/feedback-change-hand-rotation-on-index-controllers

[near river]

new ik ))

dont track at all

just broke avatar

I think the VRC will become playable only for desktopers

[devout current]

Have you done any of this?
#vrchat-general-1 message

[quasi stump]

new ik is just god awful, shoulders dont move well in the slightest and it is so jittery

[azure zinc]

i think ur model is scuffed

[vital inlet]

This happens when i turn off my controllers, is this a bug. If not anyone know how to return it to how it used to be?

[timber grove]

If your rig is weird then that’s why your tracking is bad

Or mods. Remove them if you got them.

Also regarding your shoulders. I hear it’s good to mount the trackers on your shoulders or close to in order for them to move.

@quasi stump

[north lagoon]

hey guys since about 2pm yesterday physbones suddenly started acting weird, any bones that move such as my ears and tail which move with gestures have become super jittery almost as if is animated isnt ticked which they definitely are, was wondering if anyone else has noticed this at all?

[timber grove]

The devs said in announcements it’s a known issue. Happens when isanimated is enabled on a physbone. Will get fixed soon

[north lagoon]

oh awesome was really worried I fucked somdthing in my project up

[timber grove]

Yeah

[quasi stump]

i dont have the skills to fix rigs

it broke all my avatars

its dreadful

[timber grove]

The latest update may have messed it up. When did you start experiencing this?

[quasi stump]

ik update

it is stupid jittery and stiff

[timber grove]

Did you try out the Ik when it was in the beta and experience the same issue?

Or did it just happen when it was merged into live?

Ik beta works fantastic for me

[quasi stump]

i tried it in beta and it was crap

so i went back to live and assumed it would be fixed before release

but no

[devout current]

I mean I don't see anyone else really saying it's crap. And if you had issues during beta, why didn't you make cannys for it?

[marsh elm]

Here o/
Dislike new elbows

[devout current]

I love them, (unless you touch your shoulder then it's a it meh)

[vital inlet]

ive seen lots of people saying its crap, and its broken alot of people's stuff which will hopefully be fixed soon

[devout current]

without feedback there wont be any change, so tell them to write canny posts

[robust tangle]

There are absolutely a bunch of issues that only appeared when it went live, that were not present in the IK beta, because I used it the entire duration of the IK Beta and there were no issues

[devout current]

I don't know of any new issues

[robust tangle]

One big thing is foot rotation not being consistent as you wave your hips around but leave your feet stationary. The feet wobble when they shouldn’t

They never did on beta

Also a bunch of weird things with toes

And the Index root motion bug became even worse, I wish that could get fixed

[timber grove]

Ok, I wasn’t aware of them at the time

Thanks for informing me

[robust tangle]

Also it’s completely unrelated but physics bones never vibrated haha

[dense forge]

also experiencing this issue on quest 1 and a friend of mine on quest 2 (non-standalone)

[plucky dawn]

ive had no issue with the ik 2.0, i use full 11pt tracking at times (when dancing), but i mainly play with chest, hip and feet, i havent had any issue but the neck bend, easily fixed by looking down 30 degrees when calibrating. other than some improvements that can be made on the elbow positioning and fixing the stiff movement with the hip lock and head lock option ( using the lock all option fixes the stiff movement problem)

[quasi stump]

yeah well i cant afford that many trackers i have just the 3. it makes my chest and knees extremely jittery and my elbows are never in a natural position. does it on all my avatars and ive tried all of the different settings as well as different height settings

[hasty ferry]

Me and the lads meeting up to appreciate the IK 2.0 Update ✨

[arctic shell]

@oak pendant are you aware that scaling avatar root breaks shoulders? happens during animations that make the avatar change size if shoulder tracking is enabled.

[hasty ferry]

Jokes aside.

The good parts of this update
It improves fbt for the average user, and brings some much needed changes and functionality
Elbows are better at chest avoidance, which is nice

Bad parts of this update
Elbows get really weird (ESPECIALLY when sitting or laying down)
People's setups that previously work now break

This update is a huge downgrade to these so-called "ToS rule breaking pieces of software" that people keep using

Seriously, hire the people violating VRChat's ToS to improve stuff like fullbody. Don't need to deal with people breaking ToS if they have no reason to.

[devout current]

You shouldn't really scale your Avatar in the first place, your view point, play space etc wont move at all if you do that.

[arctic shell]

there are a few viable reasons to scale root with av3 avatars. it worked perfectly and shoulder tracking is the one thing that doesnt scale now, which should be fixed.

disabling shoulder tracking fixes the issue of course

[timber grove]

What the heck

How do so many people's spines fold like that??

[hasty ferry]

We did it on purpose here but we had overall weird fbt fuckery going on so we leaned into it to take a blursed picture

[timber grove]

Interesting

[obtuse dagger]

Any news about the hybrid tracking fix?

[oak pendant]

I believe this might be due to having physbones that (even if on the ignore list) affect humanoid bones. If this happens on avatars with no phybones at all. Please add details to the canny about it here: https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/bug-avatar-foot-is-not-locked-to-foot-tracker There were no changes between end of ik-beta and release that affect foot binding, but there were some physbone related changes.

[oak pendant]

Yeah, this is an issue right now. The max number of tracked objects was increased to be sufficient for 11pt, and also the ignore distant trackers feature was added, but if max (8) trackers is exceeded, the 9th my take a spot from a previous tracker. I plan on increasing the limit here to allow for 11pt plus a few ignored trackers on the side. @rustic berry was asking about this as well

[obtuse dagger]

👀

[oak pendant]

Is it common for people to grip index controllers like this? (slanting all fingers up towards the trigger, holding the grip diagonally) Everyone I've asked in world in VRC doesn't seem to. As far as I know it's more common to have a small gap between the index finger and middle finger when holding the trigger and grip comfortably rather than slanting the whole hand. Really looking for feedback (put in Canny please) here, if there's big variation in people's grips this may need some customization options. I fear just changing this to that slant would cause a lot more people to suddenly feel that things are off.

[oak pendant]

Thanks for the video, (really helps communicate what issue you're talking about) This is known. One-handed locomotion mode is currently interfering with per-tracker-ik. I plan to do something about this.

[oak pendant]

I wasn't aware of this. Thanks for reporting! If you can get some videos and especially an avatar id (public one if possible) that can be used to reproduce the issue, up in Canny I can start taking a look at what's going on

[silent mirage]

Would it be a case if Quest 2 users use Valve Controllers, and the tracking devices exceed more than 11 but actually they only use Valve Controllers instead of quest controllers?

[carmine gate]

In a case like that you should use ALVR and disable the Quest controllers from even spawning in SteamVR to begin with.

[oak pendant]

The good parts of this update
Thanks I really do appreciate it

Bad parts of this update

• elbows when sitting
  I'm unaware of this elbows when sitting and laying issue (works for me and haven't seen it on others) This may be caused by base layer animations and not the IK system itself. It'd be easier to see with a video.
• People's setups that previously work now break
  Would need some kind of specifics to do anything about whatever this may be
• This update is a huge downgrade to these so-called "ToS rule breaking...
  I don't know the specifics of mod behaviors so discussion by reference to a mod doesn't really help me. Do they have better position-tracked shoulders, better position tracked spine? better elbow avoidance? better spine bend? better pose handling? better x? Discussing mods isn't allowed (rule 9) but discussing app behavior most definitely is and is encouraged. Please be specific about what you'd like to see in the form of a bug report or feature request.

[rustic berry]

or enable "Use controllers as gamepad" in Virtual Desktop

[oak pendant]

Gonna pin something here, because things have gotten a little, crazy in here recently

[rustic berry]

would be nice if this emoji was added :p

[hasty ferry]

I will try to gather specifics for you, videos, exactly what people are complaining about etc.

From what I can gather people find that it doesn't have as good of a spine solver, which I will be honest, don't know much about what means.

But the results are that the avatars spine doesn't bend as expected in different positions. So laying down they'll have their avatars breasts in their faces, just odd bends.

I know this is not very specific, but like said I will gather the specifics I can

Also yeah, we should not be breaking rule 9 here.

[hasty ferry]

I'd like to not break rule 9 while still mentioning the things people are experiencing as a downgrade, as compared to those who break VRChat ToS lol

In the end it's all about making this work as well as possible

[oak pendant]

There's a case where people who haven't set their User Real Height back to the true value will have the hip tracker not calibrate (or may need to increase calibration range with the launch option after setting it back) per-tracker-ik will still allow ik to process without a tracked hip and this will get really crazy when you sit or lay down, this might be what's happening

[hasty ferry]

Another question. Is there no official comment on having an option to disable avatar animations? (running etc)

[hasty ferry]

It seems to be more so how exactly their spine is bending rather than it going totally bonkers, like said I'll try to gather some more info on this

About the elbows, I'll see if I can get a video. But what I have noticed with elbows is odd behavior when touching your shoulders (there's some angle there that causes them to flip orientation rapidly when moving)

[oak pendant]

Yeah I understand that feeling, but for communication with the dev team, comparison to mods isn't necessary because, I mean, I've never touched client modifications and I don't know the specifics of how they behave. So I'd recommend just sticking to very specific feature requests reports of issues

[hasty ferry]

I'll look into exactly what it is people are saying isn't working as they expect it to when it comes to IK 2.0

And what behavior they expect

[oak pendant]

When gathering videos on spine behavior, using this world is especially helpful: https://vrchat.com/home/world/wrld_01025423-c339-4735-8af9-ba45cc9e46f2

[hasty ferry]

That way you don't have to bring mod comparison stuff into it

Wow that looks really useful, I'll keep that one in mind!

[oak pendant]

Thanks, yeah that would be super helpful

[obtuse dagger]

You are probably really busy Kung, but it's there any progress for the hybrid tracking issue?

[oak pendant]

And yeah, I'm thinking the vast majority of people thinking "omg the ik is total trash" have an uncalibrated hip tracker and they're going on per-tracker-ik without the hip, which is kinda, yeah trash with no hip data. (it would be nice if there was some better feedback as to what is getting calibrated, even if it's just in the logs when you try to figure out your issue)

[oak pendant]

Yeah, haven't made progress because it's the weekend. But it's on my list. I think the "not officially supported" communication came off poorly. We can't call it a bug because according to our docs it is not officially supported. But also, I want to fix it. If that makes sense...

Like we're not ready to change the previous stance into one of "we support every hacky method everyone has managed to get working, for all time" but also yeah, bummer that it broke and I want to fix it

[obtuse dagger]

Yeah, I understand that, it just sucks that my favorite game doesn't support it anymore, but other games does you know?

[oak pendant]

Details are in rare cases it was causing crashes and because it's not in official features, non-GenericTracker is filtered out right now

[obtuse dagger]

It's just odd that it works in game, they are seen, but when I go and calibrate the game just closes itself.

[pliant imp]

same

[oak pendant]

Yeah there's a rare case that calibrating to a controller and not GenericTracker can cause a crash, so until that's tracked down, things that aren't officially trackers are filtered out

I very much want to get support for this back in too. But good to keep in mind it's not on list of officially supported things.

Grr that's hard to communicate without changing existing stance that's in the docs.

How about this: "I'll be working on it!"

[obtuse dagger]

Hahaha

Thank you for that, we appreciate it.

[devout current]

This is how I hold my Index Controller, is this different from what you expected / other people tolled you?

[oak pendant]

Ooo thanks! this is useful data.

So as far as I know the expected grip is to have a bit of a finger spread gap for the index finger reaching up to the trigger. And the way the grip sits in the palm to be angled for that. Most of those pictures show that but the last one:

[rustic berry]

more data points kek

[oak pendant]

Awesome data!! thanks both of you

[devout current]

My friend who made the canny will also provide some pictures soon

[oak pendant]

Yeah, this is the grip I expect and how VRC is currently set up to work. When pulling the trigger you'd reach with a bit of spread like this:

[rustic berry]

yea, index finger goes up

[oak pendant]

but when relaxed, you have the "handle" in more of an aligned non-diagonal grip

that's what always felt comfortable to me, and everyone I asked seemed to do it this way

but if other people feel a different way is more comfortable than yeah this probably needs some way to configure, because comfort is a pretty personal thing

and so are hand sizes etc

[oak pendant]

Do you feel that the current index controller alignment is accurate for avatar wrist orientation for you?

[devout current]

Yeah I think the best way to make it the most comfortable for everyone would be to have some sort of setting / launch option to change this on how the end user prefers it.

[quasi sable]

Were you able to make any progress with the feedback that I had filed on the canny?

[oak pendant]

The elbow orientation in the particular pose you had mentioned will require some larger changes, just changing that pose would cause things to spazz out even more when near the shoulder

[quasi sable]

What's interesting is it actually works perfectly fine in IK1

[rustic berry]

I think it could be tweaked a tiny bit, but I would have to check in game to make sure

it's pretty close though

[quasi sable]

Do you mean downside being the neck and shoulder stretching issue when I pull my arms out too far(with IK1)

in addition to other jank with IK1 that IK2 solves

[oak pendant]

IK1 fails often with the hand near the shoulder but above it. Like scratching the back of your head or resting the top of your head in your elbow, or hand behind head on opposite shoulder

[quasi sable]

Personally I feel this one change would make it nearly perfect in my opinion

[quasi sable]

Yeah I've noticed that as well

But the wrist being near the shoulder as long as it's not behind the head seems to work perfectly fine

[oak pendant]

In order to blend into these other currently successful poses smoothly (without suddenly snapping there) it needs to approach it by going out to the side a bit when the hand is near the shoulder

[quasi sable]

With my avatar I actually haven't noticed any arm clipping in three or six point tracking whatsoever

So that was that never a problem for me even in 3 point with my avi

[oak pendant]

But yeah the current state is after lots of feedback on specific poses and a set of iterations on improving them (before your pose was mentioned) and for now it's fallen to lower priority behind other issues like things like people who can't use hardware they could before etc

[quasi sable]

People not being able to use hardware they couldn't before? What do you mean?

[oak pendant]

People had been uses controllers (not trackers) as trackers

[quasi sable]

Doesn't steam VR have solution for that?

[oak pendant]

in a rare case that can cause a crash now, so controllers are currently filtered out from calibration

Need to investigate the crash, but it's middle of weekend following release, so yeah. Just mentioning that digging back in to elbow orientation is on the list but has been shuttled around in priority behind some other things

[quasi sable]

This explains why VR chat would sometimes think my hand is my hip or my hand was my foot, lol

I actually wasn't aware that was actually part of the system,lol

I personally haven't run into that super often since I actually have my trackers marked in steam VR for specific roles

I don't know if VR chat actually respects that or not

Did you also build ik1?

[oak pendant]

huh, can't reply to my own messages, but my message above this about pinning something. I decided not to for now. Was gonna be about rule 9, but I think the friendly conversation with Aze covers it way better than a stiff sounding pin about the rules. (just mentioning* in case people were waiting for a new pin message) hopefully don't have to later.

[quasi sable]

To be honest I really liked IK1 quite a bit

[devout current]

You can reply to your own messages, you just need to press on the 3 dots and then click on reply. ^^

[quasi sable]

Sometimes it's fun to talk to yourself lol

[oak pendant]

Woah, I feel like such a discord boomer... what it this E-Mo-JI all you youngsters go on about

[quasi sable]

Kung no way you're even over 35,lol

[devout current]

It's helpful if you just want to add some information to a message you've already sent ^^

[quasi sable]

Yeah 😛 I was just being facetious

[rustic berry]

I mean, you can also just right click a message and click Reply

works for any message

[oak pendant]

Yeah, that was the idea

[quasi sable]

The more I'm around younger folks the older I feel constantly,lol

[oak pendant]

Damn the more you know... 🌈 ⭐

[quasi sable]

Which is why I hate when people ask me how old I am in VR chat,lol

I just usually respond by saying I'm older than 22

[oak pendant]

It only categorizes into controller or not, so held-in-hand role can cause issues

[quasi sable]

If I could just keep my physical body at the age of 23 for eternity I'd like to be able to do that,lol

[quasi sable]

Interesting so you just don't wanna have held in hand roles?

[rustic flint]

Heya, Im the guy from the Canny post. This is how I hold my controllers. I'll also post it to the Canny since you asked for all information to be collected there

[quasi sable]

I'll pass that along to any users who continue to have issues like that in the future

[quasi sable]

Pretty sure that's how I hold mine as well!

Pretty standard but some people have their thumb in a lower position

Which is largely a preference thing

( my thumb is in a slightly lower position)

Also my hand is a wee bit smaller than yours,lol

I have girl hands,lol

[rustic flint]

I actually tried holding it like Kung described but somehow this is straining my hand 😅

[quasi sable]

Is it because your thumb is in a higher position?

[oak pendant]

Awesome thanks!!

[quasi sable]

I think if my thumb was in that high of a position it would also strain my wrist a bit

[oak pendant]

Interesting that it causes strain. What if you take the part where the wrist strap enters the handle and shove towards your fingers a bit to slide the handle's position in your grip? Does that cause strain?

(don't do anything that hurts ofc!)

[rustic flint]

If I shift my hand down a bit my thumb rests a bit lower but it still strains my hand trying to reach the trigger with my index finger

[oak pendant]

Personally I've found that the index controller registers finger tracking better this way

[rustic flint]

Do you mean the upper adjustable part with the 4 dots orr the lower part?

[quasi sable]

The nice thing about the index controllers is they actually learn your finger positions. So you can actually move your fingers lower. If you place you thumb on the touchpad and drum each finger starting with your index, then middle, ect accross the grip it will actually calibrate your finger positions.

[oak pendant]

Apply a small force here until the grip and strap slide slightly

[rustic flint]

For me its stretching my index finger up that is uncomfortable

[oak pendant]

Ah interesting, then I guess that position wouldn't work well for you

[rustic berry]

yea, typically sliding your hand down the grip helps with finger tracking

I have pretty big hands so I can do that quite comfortably

I've actually yet to meet anyone with hands as large as mine lol

I would probably be good at piano

[oak pendant]

Woah! I cant barely reach the 2 key

hmm maybe not barely, barely the 1 key

[rustic berry]

yea it's a bit freaky xD

[quasi sable]

for reference this is how I hold mine https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rUHL1di4MBRLLqDiDiW22fihliVX_bH-/view

[oak pendant]

Though my hand isn't really big and the more straight handled grip on the index controller works alright for me

[rustic flint]

If I slide my hand a bit down the controller I have to angle it to the front a bit further which causes the difference in angle between the VRC hand and my own hand to grow even bigger 😅

[devout current]

I really think the best solution to this would be to allow the player to configure the rotation of how their controllers are mapped to their Avatars hand.

[oak pendant]

Do you feel like VRC angles the avatar's wrists incorrectly relative to your hand?

[quasi sable]

Not really

Although I'm using IK1

[oak pendant]

No change vs IK1

[quasi sable]

Since the problem I reported isn't fixed in IK2, I'll wait

[devout current]

I'm not sure if this would be feasible with launch options though.

[quasi sable]

What do you mean?

[rustic berry]

I mean, games like beat saber allow you to adjust the controller offset. it's definitely doable, but it will most likely have to wait until the UI update

[quasi sable]

I wasn't sure if that was a question or you just saying that, that wouldn't be a problem with a K1

[oak pendant]

Yeah, trying to gather if there's a fundamental problem, or it's mostly and people are holding the controller wrong, or if people holding the controller in various non-crazy ways is enough variance to need an option here, looks like maybe so

though likely something that if near term, like other things wouldn't be in-ui unfortunately

[rustic berry]

actually, I have noticed that depending on how I move my wrist, my arms can get "pulled"

almost as if the wrist joint is not in the right spot

I feel like a controller offset would fix that, or maybe a rig tweak, I'm not sure

[quasi sable]

A feature could be implemented so people could customize where they are hands would be in relation to their controllers, maybe?

[rustic berry]

leaning towards controller offset

[quasi sable]

Yeah exactly

[oak pendant]

Well, it's rotation that's the main issue, I can link that old paragraph where "do you want the option to X?" always is a yes, but yeah trying to figure out what's high priority needed

[quasi sable]

That would allow each user to customize it depending on how they grip their controllers

[quasi sable]

The crash related issues I think are probably more important than some of this stuff!

[oak pendant]

looks like current behavior isn't good enough probably, and at least needs a single value tilt along the axis tilting up towards the trigger

[oak pendant]

Oh yeah, of course

[devout current]

Yeah that would be good ^^

[quasi sable]

I think he always felt that the hand positions were always kind of off with VR chat versus every other game that I played

[oak pendant]

just gathering data now that I have the chance (thanks everyone btw!)

[quasi sable]

I actually organized my overlay to be right over my hand in every other game and it's always off on VR chat

Again I'm always in six point tracking in VR chat never in three point

I also never really cared for adding additional trackers even though I have them to my body because they're just uncomfortable

[arctic shell]

Just put this on canny now 🙂

[devout current]

This is the canny for it btw, should we post some of the stuff we discussed here in there?
https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/feedback-change-hand-rotation-on-index-controllers

[quasi sable]

If I buy that tundras I might add elbow trackers (whenever those come back in stock; maybe in 18 months lol)

[quasi sable]

I can post this stuff here or some of it, I think it would be good to have this compiled in one location so Kung can go through it when he has time

[rustic berry]

tundra arm trackers are the best

[quasi sable]

I need tundra trackers are probably the best for use with elbows and knees for sure

Will they have a lower fov, they make it much more comfortable in those positions

i like my feet in my hips to have the highest fov possible

[oak pendant]

Yeah, I feel like posting other people's IRL hands for them in there is maybe strange, so yeah if you posted a hand image and would like to share it to the Canny please do

[devout current]

Would be nice if you could do this yeah ^^

[quasi sable]

Although I am using 3.0 HTC five trackers for those

[devout current]

lmao

[quasi sable]

Yeah I'm gonna have to try to best describe the feature I'm talking about and I more organized fashion though

Unfortunately I lack the words necessary to do that at the moment.

I can visualize this feature but I can't compress it into written language or spoken language

I kind of hate spoken and written language a lot

I can draw you a picture of the interface I'm talking about but I can't exactly explain it

Certainly not in the very concise or easy to understand way

Perhaps I'll do a mockup of the interface in Photoshop or something

I think this will do a better job of demonstrating what I wish to convey

[oak pendant]

Sure if you'd like, though if it's a new and possibly confusing interface thing, then that would be harder to get all the way to implemented, would need to pass through much more of the team. I mean I can understand that 6dof offset specification is max super mega customization. But things will likely start out as simple and non-confusing as possible to get the needed behavior in

And near term (because seems like people are having sudden issues with this, though it didn't change relative to IK1 🤷 ) it'd probably be another launch option with a single tilt axis in the direction people are expressing is an issue

[quasi sable]

I think in the short term launch option would be fine, but it would be nice if it was in the interface at some point.

[devout current]

Yup

[empty solar]

Does anyone have a comparison reference chart for legacy vs IK2 rigs

[plucky dawn]

i noticed that with chest tracker its pulling to much into the stomach area of avatars, is this the placement of the tracker or is it the weight paint of the avatar should it be weight painted with the chest tracker in mind?

[icy ferry]

i think i'd say that the biggest issue when it comes to the elbows when sitting or laying is that the way the new system detects elbow positioning can cause it to be thrown out of wack. usually happens when i'm laying on my side slightly upright (think like, on my side resting against a large pillow/my arm, so my entire upper body is diagonal while my lower body stays horizontal), and touch anywhere above my chest on my body. it basically causes the elbow to flip between a few positions and land on a few unsavory ones like pointing straight outwards, clipping into the face, etc. i don't know if it has to do with the position being a bit awkward and the distance between my elbow and hip being shortened or anything, but i've found that to be the most problematic position for elbow issues. there's other positions that have shown me a couple of elbow issues but i'm known for bizarre laying positions so i'm not sure what's something to account for and what isn't.

i don't know if that's helpful at all because i can't explain it. i should really test more elbow stuff because i've had them flip around in weird directions a few times but i chalked it up to my weird positions. i have a joint disorder so the ways that i lay/sit can be strange.

i should try and get in default robot avatar at some point and get some videos or pics of weird behavior eventually but i haven't been in vr as much as usual lately

[vital inlet]

yeah i wanna know aswell

[obtuse dagger]

They are gonna work on it, we just have to wait. Hopefully in the meantime some other big brain people can fix it.

[vital inlet]

okay thanks

[turbid ginkgo]

a bit of a weird one, but some of my avis have a weird chest snap to them w the new ik system. like the chest snaps 45 degrees to the right whenever i look up or down

[calm torrent]

I don't know the specifics of how they behave
I feel like that's a mildly counterproductive approach. People use those, despite the risks, for a reason. Wouldn't it be nice to know which features people want so much that they knowingly break the rules? There's canny, sure, but it does suffer from sampling bias to a degree, as creating posts and finding relevant posts require effort that not many are willing to put in, and people get bonked for pinging large discord with "updoot this canny post".

Sure, IK2 is a great improvement over the legacy IK - but it's still lacking in aspects critical to some people, and those very aspects drive them to seek a not-officially-supported solution for their needs.
Getting rid of unwanted animations, dealing with wall freeze, mitigating newly added elbow issues, fixing hand offsets/angles, trying to find the non-existent sweet spot between "lock head" leaving spine mostly straight and "lock both" giving people a severe case of gamer neck - there's canny posts for all of that, some of them with hundreds of votes, but what we get prioritized instead is shoulder tracking and elbow-chest avoidance (and don't get me wrong, these are great features to have at the end of the day), which didn't even break 50 canny votes, created new bugs (all the elbow spazzing out posts/videos) and were not the features people broke ToS for.

I'm not trying to complain too hard here - some other things did get included, like calibration saving, fixing basic issues with twisty chest, knees/elbows, and chest tracking, that had decent user support behind them. I also understand that the team probably has a different vision or different plans, and simply copying someone else's ideas/priorities is not necessarily a good approach here - but surely at least using it to analyze the market, so to say, to figure out what's in high demand, and what can wait (in addition to canny vote counts), would make sense here?

[turbid ginkgo]

like has anybody else had this issue?

[violet vortex]

Does anyone have issues with arm rotation?`It starts to break really bad in the new ik 2.0

Like for example reaching out to your back to grab something

I also have elbow issues when laying on my side, if i looke to the left and then right it snaps back and forth

[marsh elm]

yup common issue

get your hands near your shoulders and your elbows shid themselves

[calm torrent]

https://vrchat.canny.io/vrchat-ik-20/p/elbow-behavior-while-hand-is-near-or-on-the-shoulder

[obtuse dagger]

Hey @oak pendant, sorry for the tag again, but can you please tell us what the trackers should be named not to be filtered out by VRChat? I am talking about the emulated trackers using CV1 controllers.

[marsh elm]

generic_tracker

[marsh elm]

lol, odd just saw this

yeah, my wands are flashed and it has kept on working without issue

never tried using them as is without flashing, so i can't comment on that

[obtuse dagger]

Thank you

[lethal light]

Yeah, I didn't want to ping because most people that were coming in the chat were just complaining about issues at that time (although that seems to have subsided now which is nice as constructive conversation is best). I gave the name though in case the person wanted to ask you for help; however, it does not seem like they were willing to put in the effort ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[marsh elm]

haha i saw that

their way or the highway 😄

its super easy to flash and unflash too

literal one minute job

[lethal light]

yup xD, I don't get those people

[manic stump]

hi i need help

So basicly after the new ik 2.0 update i noticed that all the sitting possition don't correspond to my real once. (which is a problem i didn't have in the old version)
for example sitting on my knees makes my avatar spread their knees or turn my avatar into a chicken (no joke)
Now i tried every customizeable option in 2.0 with the locking but nothing helped (for the record my tracking still works as well as before the update)
So then i tried the original mode or legacy mode but same issue :c

here is my pro example of my issue

(in ms paint :p)

[marsh elm]

yeah

i noticed that the knees tend to not go down as much as they should, and did in the previous IK

so crouching and kneeling look kinda eh

[manic stump]

well that's why i tried legacy

but then i had the same issue

which is very strange cause it was working perfectly.

[lethal light]

Kneeling is mostly a proportions issue, although without knee trackers it can get a little wierd even with good proportions

[manic stump]

yes i get all of that but why was it working perfectly on almost all avatar before the update

and now it doesn't work on any...

[lethal light]

While I cannot provide any specific commentary with the provided information, I can say that there might have been a workaround used on the armature.
Looking at the drawing you gave, maybe the upper leg needs to be longer in proportion to the lower leg?

[manic stump]

it happens to all my avatars

[lethal light]

and?

[manic stump]

i public avatars

so the porpotions are random

oh wait

[lethal light]

kneeling works terribly with bad proportions in my experience.

[manic stump]

yeah it does it just that in this update it works 2x as bad

like i didn't describe it perfectly

but thanks for the feedback

[lethal light]

Using ingame pictures might help give a visual

[manic stump]

(it's just in this case isn't a porportion issue)

[obsidian ice]

Its might be the new arm vs head scaling option for your height try switching between those using your real hight and see which works better
Arm is nice so that when your arms are full extended irl they match in vrchat instead of being bent still but the floor isnt the same
Head is the reverse where the floor is exact but your arms wont be

[icy ferry]

Are you trying to depict that one knee is more bent than the other?? Do the legs cross?? Does the spine remain straight when looking at it from the front or does it tilt or anything?? I'm asking becauae maybe a front view would be beneficial to see if there's any problems. I can't kneel very easily with my tracker placement or I lose tracking in my playspace so I can't test it out myself currently.

[marsh elm]

nvm, height scale and now kneeling is good

elbows are the last thing i have an issue with now 😄

[icy ferry]

oh nice!! yeah a lot of people are having problems with the elbows for sure

[manic stump]

actualy

i found the issue for my leg

it work when i use legacy

legacy is just better then 2.0 i guess

[icy ferry]

oh man i almost forgot, i'm curious if there's plans to improve upon the way that avatars clip with world colliders. like before it was freezing the whole avatar, but now it only freezes half of the body and folds you like a lawn chair while you move through. like the hip still moves through, but it's trying to keep the rest of the body anchored back where there's no collider on the side that you originated from. the freeze was annoying but it's almost just like. more disconcerting now. i know people want to clip through walls completely which would be fine but i'm fine with either the full freeze or clipping through completely because the inbetween is kind of scary lmao

[lethal light]

There has been nothing confirmed, but it is one of the issues that came up in beta that everyone seems to hate xD
I think Kung wants to change it, but like I said, no confirmation or anything

[icy ferry]

yeah i hadn't noticed anything in beta with it but i noticed it when it went live and it was real funky lmao. it's like tolerable but it is unsettling to look at.

[lethal light]

off the top of my head, that and not having the option to toggle locomotion animations are the most hated things the beta testers really want changed

[marsh elm]

its pretty confusing like you said, either fully clip or not at all

[icy ferry]

i guess i don't attempt to go through walls enough to have noticed it. but definitely the locomotion animation toggle would be great. i have toggles on some of my avatars that i've put there myself but the option to toggle them in game for any avatar, not just ones you upload, would be pretty huge.

[marsh elm]

every now and then im like "why is my fbt buggy right now...? oh im clipping some shit"

[icy ferry]

agreed. it's very weird. i prefer just freezing to whatever is going on right now. at least when i'm frozen looking through a wall for whatever reason, people are just like "oh okay that person is just against the wall" now it's like "oh god that person needs medical attention"

[marsh elm]

me_irl after clipping:

especially the fed up face

lol

[icy ferry]

felt that lmfao. i don't mind just freezing. it's also much easier to notice when you fully freeze versus the way that it clips now when you're not able to see yourself in the mirror so it's easier to remedy when it's just the freezing.

at least in my opinion

and i understand trying to discourage people from clipping/seeing through walls, but the truth of the matter is that you still can, regardless of how it looks from an outside perspective.

[lethal light]

I mean, if you open the main menu, you can clip through anything without freezing, and I believe there is a mode hidden in the radial mode under immobile or something that lets you do the same thing, or maybe it is something you have to set up on your avatar idk, so unless they want to go through the effort to actually stop clipping (like moving the avatar back when you try to look through something), they should probably just leave it unfrozen for irl movement

[marsh elm]

its not a competitive shooter, and they dont block your vision for clipping

so who cares about stopping players

like geez, its just an annoyance when you're trying to lean on counters or w/e

[lethal light]

pretty much my reasoning entirely

and nothing is stopping any of the game world creators or whoever from implementing their own ways to keep players from clipping/cheating

[icy ferry]

yeah i think it does make it hard when you're trying to do jokes or showing off by leaning on things and stuff like that. and you can't reach across tables to grab things.

it feels very limiting and some people can also argue that it's not realistic to clip through walls, but it's also not realistic to not be able to lean over a counter. and it's a game filled with anime characters, furries, video game characters, etc. i don't think this game prides itself on 100% realism anyways. lmao.

also people are floating around everywhere you look

[lethal light]

was there really an argument for realism in the first place? I thought it was more of a "just hasn't been implemented yet" problem. I guess maybe realism would come up over freezing the entire avatar or not, which I guess is fair.

[icy ferry]

you'd be surprised at how many people i hear complain about fbt users not looking "realistic" because they float or sit midair so no idea how those people would react to clipping through walls lmao

[lethal light]

ohh lmao
I haven't heard the sitting argument in a little while xD

[digital grove]

Games

[icy ferry]

i still hear it all the time. somehow. lmfao

[lethal light]

but yeah, I see what you are saying with that, although is just freezing in place when you bump an object any more realistic?

[digital grove]

Yes

[icy ferry]

i mean it is more realistic in that it prevents you from clipping into things, but it lacks realism in other aspects for sure because of how limiting it is

[lethal light]

yeah, like "ohh? your back is touching the wall, well now you are paralyzed."
I get that neither are very realistic, so just chose the one that feels better? Or at least that is what I am hoping.

[icy ferry]

yeah it prevents a lot of more natural movements too rather than just stopping you from running through a wall. it seems like most people would prefer just clipping through but i guess it'd depend on the person

[raw wadi]

i's an out of body experience

[marsh elm]

Freezing would be fine if your head wasn't the vertical root of your avatar

Same shit happens on blade and sorcery

You lean over a low table and your head pushes yourself away in that game

I commented this before and kung mentioned wanting to switch the root to the hips or something for FBT, that would solve most of my issues with freezing tbh, since you'd only freeze after your hips started clipping something

But i dunno what became of it

[wraith flower]

does anyone know how to fix shoulder from moving as if im in desktop but im in fbt

[icy ferry]

what do you mean. like when you move with the thumbstick the shoulders move back and forth??

like you're running??

[wraith flower]

yes

its like my upper body wiggles as i walk

[icy ferry]

It always wiggles or shifts a little bit. Always has. You can try looking into alternate locomotion layers for your avatars which can reduce that issue. I don't know if there are other fixes though.

[devout current]

The default Base and Additive Layers (which are used for locomotion etc) are not made in mind with "Force Locomotion animations in 6 point tracking" being disabled. If you disable it you should use your own locomotion controller etc.

[vast tangle]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/733222827817435158/980667839717453864/VRChat_2022.05.29_-_21.02.44.07_Trim.mp4

seems a new bug was introduced with ik2

autofootstep doesnt take into account the position of the feet when you stop moving and the autostep gets turned back on

that causes it to blend from your idle animation to a default foot position

most likely the same foot position used by the TPose

ideally the autofootstep should take the current position of the feet and use that as the starting point for the procedural animation and start stepping from there rather than slide to a default pose

[vast tangle]

https://feedback.vrchat.com/sdk-bug-reports/p/ik2-auto-footstep-not-using-idle-foot-position-as-base

[obtuse dagger]

Totally not the right channel for that.

You need to set Voicemeter as the default driver, then disable the audio driver virtual desktop is using.

[manic stump]

Ok i have question

For some reason kneeling down doesnt work for me. Sitting down on knees

Can someone else attempt this and show me if it works for them?

[lethal light]

Didn't we already have this conversation?

[marsh elm]

We did 😆

[marsh elm]

This ^

[rustic zodiac]

@oak pendant I'm getting bugged by quite a few of my fellow vrc dancers and avi creators. Is there an official best armature layout for the new IK. I've found that how your proportions of bones is set affects the behaviour quite a lot. Especially with 11point and using a layout similar to the following:
Seems to cure most of the strange-ness with the neck getting squashed too much.

[marsh elm]

Maybe they want some specific form of kneeling? lol

[rustic zodiac]

Removing the upper chest bone causes the head to force the neck down into the chest when leaning forward or causes the avi to "fold" strangely. Same with moving the upperchest down to where I would normally put it. Also, would it be possible to add maybe some sort of easy armature debug where we can actually see the physical bones in-game to see how they behave including how the pulling/pushing of certain trackers is affecting them? Like how the weight of the elbow is being used to place the shoulders.

[lethal light]

check the pins, there is a world that shows the bones

[rustic zodiac]

Would be nice to just have it in any world 😦 Like my home world for quick testing.

[marsh elm]

Make this your home world, LOL

https://vrchat.com/home/world/wrld_01025423-c339-4735-8af9-ba45cc9e46f2

chacker

[rustic zodiac]

Plus, seeing the trackers in relation to the bones is what I would REALLY like to see, that way you can tweak them and see how the behaviour changes. As for my own avi's having 2 different armatures I've slowly been optimizing it, but giving actual concrete answers for "best" layout is very hard rn.

[lethal light]

idk, maybe needs to be kneeling on the grave of ik-1?

[marsh elm]

Papa bless 🙏

[rustic zodiac]

See, I found that the new IK works tremendously well with knee's and I very rarely get kneeling glitches except where one of your leg bones is disproportionally too long and hip is in the wrong place, meaning the armature just cannot bend how you are attempting to make it.

I tend to find a ratio of the same proportions to your own body an absolute must for proper kneeling functionality.

[marsh elm]

Here, i hope they find this useful

[lethal light]

absolutely beautiful

[lethal light]

what we have been saying xD

[marsh elm]

Yup, getting ratio'd is important for ik2

I guess if they wanna dance and have super accurate IK they gotta ask for their limb measurement to be taken into the avatar lol

I wonder if thats gonna be a thing in the avatars made for ik2, takin sizes for each sale 😆

i, wha- bro

#vrchat-general-1

Off you go mate

[rustic zodiac]

The only way I see to fix this for public avatars, is to provide adjustable lengths for each bone in-game for people to manually adjust to their own dimensions. Not sure if this could be done with a template and then set for each of your avi's maybe 🤔

Like how it stretches the fall-back avatars to fit your actual avi size roughly.

[marsh elm]

Imagine stretching being implemented, new calibration method:

Put your controlers on your knee height once, on your elbows once, on your hips once

CALIBRATE

Then your mesh deforms into an unholy abomination

[lethal light]

i believe kung said he didnt want to do that because it would kill a lot of the diversity in avatars

[rustic berry]

I think there was interest in individually scaling the entire legs/arms, but not sure how much of a priority that is

but I might be misremembering, idk

[marsh elm]

I want good fitting avatars, the heck does that have to do with diversity

[lethal light]

i think the official stance is make em yourself

xD

[marsh elm]

bah

[lethal light]

such an annoyance

[marsh elm]

Mate, we aint gonna be yer mommy

😄

[marsh elm]

I mean, they wanna not do it just say so, don't have to come up with weird ass angles 😤

[rustic zodiac]

How, since it would give users the option to get better IK and an overall more realistic experience. I can see why some might want different dimensions but this does come at the cost of IK not being able to simulate your movements very well. Scaling everything by an X,Y or Z should be pretty simple, but everything else is much harder.

[marsh elm]

Is lookin like a weirdo on stilts diversity? 😒

don't say yes

[rustic berry]

why does that matter lol

[marsh elm]

Boy u down bad absolutely tremendously

[rustic berry]

lol

[marsh elm]

Down to the earth's crust horribly bad

[lethal light]

he sent a message with his reasoning a lil while back. I'm in vr rn so you gotta find it if u want it

[marsh elm]

Why should i answer you 😂

[lethal light]

https://tenor.com/txJr.gif

[marsh elm]

Dew et

[rustic zodiac]

He wants boop your snoot, and doing it to a female would be instant death

He needs to know if he's gonna face the wrath of the e-boys or not

[lethal light]

https://tenor.com/GbHn.gif

[marsh elm]

I aint got no snoot

[marsh elm]

Lol

[rustic zodiac]

https://tenor.com/view/wait-what-surprised-kevin-hart-gif-24449759

[lethal light]

it was sad the moment you started it

and he is posting in #full-body-tracking great

[rustic zodiac]

Do females in Vrchat exist? Yes ofc they do, are 80% of vrchat in female models, also yes, if vrchat is over 60% male, what does that tell you.
We all like looking at females, so we wear female avi's Simples 😛

At the end of the day, who cares. Do whatever makes you happy 🙂

[marsh elm]

He wants to flirt with 35 year old men, or something

That's what i understood

🤔

[rustic zodiac]

Wrong, I actually don't but I just don't flirt with peeps on vrchat out of no-where until I get to know them much better 😉

[marsh elm]

Not ya, talkin about the mommy guy

[rustic zodiac]

OHHH xD

Meh, I find female models don't ever fit me properly and I feel uncomfortable in them after more than an hour, the attention in a female avi I get is too much for me 😓
Do you guys find the females always get a disproportionate amount of the un-wanted attention from all of the not so pleasant members of the community

[marsh elm]

I look like a genshin character, so not really extra attention

You gotta wear wholesome avatars 😤

fbt usually gets people interested more than my avatars lol

[rustic zodiac]

Trueeee.... I find friends female in any avi always get attention and I get ignored xD

[lethal light]

Ehh... maybe it is the places you hang out at? I'm mostly fine, although like venom I have a fairly wholesome-looking avatar

no, no we don't

[marsh elm]

I'd look out of place on maps like room of the rain 😆

Eboy/egirl central

[rustic zodiac]

Any of you feel like sharing a pic of your armature layout you use along with the tracker configuration

[marsh elm]

Me?

[rustic zodiac]

And lemme know of any shortcomings this causes you

[marsh elm]

I guess i could

What kinda pic do you want

Front armature picture?

Lewd 😳 👉 👈

[lethal light]

I can if you remind me tomorrow. 10 point, missing left knee

[marsh elm]

The ole pegleg

[rustic zodiac]

No. Just same as myne with a pic of the armature in blender if possible

[marsh elm]

Whats yours again

[rustic zodiac]

Similar to this

[marsh elm]

Oh here, a frontal torso pic?

Ya

Well mine wouldn't be eventful, i do 3 trackers (feet and waist) and dont have an upper chest

No glaring issues besides my arms being a few cm too short from my irl arms

[rustic zodiac]

🙂

And yes I have tracker models on my avi fight me xD

[marsh elm]

Kek

[lethal light]

ohh no, the eboys have arrived. Quick! Stand up! It scares them

[marsh elm]

HAHAHA

fuck i actually laughed

[marsh elm]

Someone make that spongebob meme of patrick scaring squidward

[lethal light]

YES!

[marsh elm]

"standing up! ooo~"

Squidward 😑

[rustic zodiac]

Armature pic plz ❤️

[marsh elm]

In a minute

[rustic berry]

I've done that too lol

but I made new models for the trackers

[marsh elm]

My wands would look hilarious on my avatar

"bro you got big FEET, how do these fit"

[rustic berry]

chest tracker is in a different spot now but gets the point across

[rustic zodiac]

Same, these are only 163 verts each 🙂

[rustic berry]

lol nice

I made my tundra tracker models 400 tris

sec

[rustic zodiac]

I havent gotten a texture made for my tundra model yet

[rustic zodiac]

Wow, that's incredibly clean!

[rustic berry]

ty

and vive 2.0 too

this one I think is 1.2k

[rustic zodiac]

Hmm tasty Tri's

[rustic berry]

nicely done aswell

here's mine

[rustic zodiac]

Took so fricking long to make this a quad only mesh

[rustic berry]

sometimes only quad's isn't the way to go

putting triangles in key places is good practice

[rustic zodiac]

cough if you use only quads you get 1/3 free polys in unity 😉

[rustic berry]

uh, no?

[rustic zodiac]

Yes

[rustic berry]

every quad becomes triangles

[rustic zodiac]

Try it for vrchat models

Only registers 2/3 of the resulting tri's

[rustic berry]

unless you specifically enable "Keep quads", in which case it splits your mesh into 2, one mesh containing all the quads and the other only containing tris

which is worse

[rustic zodiac]

Cheat for getting more out of your models

[rustic zodiac]

Exactly why I work with only quad meshes to avoid this

[rustic berry]

it gets triangulated by the game engine at the end of the day anyways

[rustic zodiac]

My quest fallback is a 12.5k tri model, only shows as 7k in vrchat

[rustic berry]

you should only use Keep quads if you need things like tesselation

[marsh elm]

feet+waist tracking, no real issues as long as i don't do extreme movements like trying to do a seiza or something

[rustic zodiac]

Yeah, I'm currently trying to make my avi a tesselation shader, not having fun rn though

[rustic berry]

I think that's unnecessary in most cases

[marsh elm]

cant remember issues by head, besides the crappy IK2 hand-near-shoulder elbows flipping out general issue

[rustic berry]

a normal map should do you fine

[rustic zodiac]

I want quest fallback with superlow poly count and 1 material, but looks nice for those that can run it. I also have a local-only avatar interation menu so people can edit my avi's look on their client for optimization or beautifying it 🙂

[rustic berry]

you can't use custom shaders for quest, so a tessellation shader would not work. the Standard Lite shader allows for a normal map though

[rustic zodiac]

Correct, but I want the same base model for quest and PC

But PC uses the quest model + custom tesslation shader which looks like the quest version but obviously better

And, having the default set my shaders to the quest version, with then using animations to change stuff locally means you all see the low poly and optimized version, unless you specifically choose to up the quality for me, meaning I don't lag people un-necessarily and everyone can keep my avi shown at all times.

No point having a beautiful avi people can't run. I want best of both worlds

[marsh elm]

no, you gotta lag out everyone with 769k polys and 48 materials

[rustic zodiac]

I hide anyone with more than 20 mats and 200k polys

[marsh elm]

i hide anyone with a very poor avatar tbh

[rustic zodiac]

Or over 50MB size

[marsh elm]

and that too

an avatar really doesnt have to be above 50mb

[rustic zodiac]

Wish we could do this automatically within Vrchat 😢 But I have to manually show people instead because security is garbo

[marsh elm]

if they aint got the decency to crunch, its probably filled to the neck with 8k texture nonsense

[rustic zodiac]

I use a single 8k texture, and map it.

[marsh elm]

ya one big atlas is fine

people use 8k for their socks or some shit

aaa

[rustic zodiac]

Except a separate 4k one for my cards, I have an atlas texture for that 🙂

But's thats only on my chill avi

Sadly, because of the way vrchat stores textures, having 1 4k texture is better than loading 16 512 textures

[marsh elm]

i do one 4k atlas since my avatar is pretty low-complexity

[rustic zodiac]

Infact having an 8k is still better xD

[marsh elm]

aint got the brains for crazy avatars

just a humble game avatar maker 😇

[marsh elm]

whats up with that

really?

i guess less overhead or

[rustic zodiac]

Not sure, my friend who develops with Unity (might be applying for a job at vrchat soon) cough says it is due to the way they try to compress and package the textures.

Like a 128 bit texture is bigger after vrchat builds it than a normal like for like 256 bit texture and close to a 512 bit. Which is kinda crazy

[marsh elm]

i see

i guess diminishing returns on small textures?

weird

[rustic zodiac]

yeah, not sure the exact reason why but something we observed

[marsh elm]

it probably tries to keep detail since the texture is so small

as to not destroy pixel art or something?

ya know

[rustic zodiac]

In vrchat with a pixel for pixel per face load, they are exactly the same. Which is even more weird. Like they're not even trying to run any sort of smoothing.

[lethal light]

it is probably a combination of extra draw calls and the redundant data that is used to declare etc. the images
also, compression worms better on larger datasets; however vram is uncompressed

[marsh elm]

my poor 8gb 3070 ass 😔

vrchat smashes my vram

there should be some sort of in-vram compression

that'd be nice

[lethal light]

lmao, 1070 here

[rustic zodiac]

I am trying to do something kinda insane rn. Making a shader which takes 64 texture segments to make a single combined material in a custom shader.

[marsh elm]

makin croonch affect both disk and vram

[lethal light]

you got 2 gens on me

[marsh elm]

AND its still crap 8gb (pretend it was all caps because of the dumbass no caps bot)

[rustic zodiac]

Means I can swap each segment and use different texture sizes for each bit depending on how high quality I want to use :).

[marsh elm]

(its text, who cares about fuckin caps)

[lethal light]

lmao, the bots are dumb sometimes

[marsh elm]

i have no idea what you want with this, but i wish you luck

[rustic zodiac]

1080ti here on water, cries at 40fps as soon as I load into a 30+ person lobby.

[lethal light]

yes, and I am extremely happy tis so

[marsh elm]

you'll need it soldier

[lethal light]

xD try 25fps

[marsh elm]

why u happy

ii swear to god

if the 4k line is MRSP on launch

[rustic zodiac]

Drops to sub-30 when I enable a mirror

[marsh elm]

i will get the biggest VRAM mf out there for the 4000 cards

[rustic zodiac]

Sometimes teens if I fully show more than 5 avi's

Esp with Poiymi shader

[marsh elm]

like oh my god i left a rx590 for thiis and i thought i wouldnt have to worry about memory in 2022

vrchat was a surprise

for sure

[marsh elm]

is poiomi especially bad? 😆

(i might be using it 👀)

[lethal light]

cause unlike the 3070, the 1070 is not extremely gimped on vram

[rustic zodiac]

Yes, extremely so

Especially with any even slightly fancy features

[marsh elm]

how much ya got

[marsh elm]

whew

[lethal light]

uhh.... I have everything shown 👀

[lethal light]

8GB

[marsh elm]

no fancy features here

[rustic zodiac]

By fancy, I mean custom lighting options, emissions, scrolling effects etc

[marsh elm]

i do a matcap and an outline for toon avatars

😤

[lethal light]

only bad if you hse a ton of effects

[rustic zodiac]

Just the lighting option causes 3* drawcalls xD

Makes me cry

[rustic berry]

Poiyomi is not that bad at all

[marsh elm]

locked is pretty good huh

[rustic berry]

yes, because it throws out all of the unused categories

and more

[marsh elm]

i think mine are all locked 🤔

[rustic zodiac]

Depends what you're doing with it.

[marsh elm]

it locks automagically right?

[rustic zodiac]

Vrchat forces you to lock them on avi's

[rustic berry]

sure, it has the potential to be heavier depending on what you enable

it automatically locks the materials that are on the avatar yes, but sometimes material swaps don't get locked

[rustic zodiac]

Oh trueee

[rustic berry]

and that's not VRChat forcing the locking, it's Poiyomi hooking into the upload process and locking the materials automatically since most people would not do it

[rustic zodiac]

I am pretty sure the locking of shaders was a Vrchat addition to the SDK call right?

But yeah it might be Poiy actually doing the locking

[rustic berry]

it is Poi doing the locking. there's certain things you can hook into with the SDK

to have things happen automatically

[rustic zodiac]

I see 🙂 You learn something new every day

[rustic berry]

recently, Poi requested a feature to allow the SDK to differenciate between test builds and actual uploads

so that it would skip the locking for test builds for faster iterations

Poi pinged his discord telling people to go upvote it, which made tupper mad lol

[marsh elm]

lol

poi's just playing the game, fellas 😎

[lethal bridge]

is all that is necessary for VRChat to pick-up a device to set it's TrackedControllerRole to TrackedControllerRole_OptOut and TrackedDeviceClass to TrackedDeviceClass_GenericTracker?

[marsh elm]

🤔

i know wands need to be flashed as "generic_tracker"

not sure what you're doing, rift controllers as fbt?

[lethal bridge]

custom driver

[rustic zodiac]

I mean, this is the best way to get a feature recognised. More votes show people care. And for some things they need attention.

[manic stump]

Yes because my issue is still happening

[marsh elm]

gamer neck, so hot right now

execute head tilting maneuver

[lethal bridge]

@oak pendant ~~just so that you don't miss it: #ik-2 message

The generated tracker shows up in VRChat as a white ball (very close to the intended bone), it shows up in SteamVR under trackers with a non-hand role, but it never ends up getting used. Never shows up in the IK logs.~~

After thorough checking, the DeviceClass property seems to not have been set correctly to GenericTracker, despite being added to SteamVR as one. 🤦

[silent mirage]

Hello, I'm using Quest 2, Index Controller and Tundra Trackers with Virtual Desktop.

• Quest 2 Headset * 1
• Quest 2 Controller * 2
• Valve Index Controller * 2
• Tundra Tracker * 8

(Please note) The last device I boot up is Right Controller.

• All devices can be seen in SteamVR interface (also in steamvr environment, they work very well)

• Once get into VRChat, my right controller has no functionality, cannot be seen in game, BUT I can see it in steamvr environment.

If I change the last boot up device to any other tracker (for example, Right Elbow Tracker), fully redo all the steps from beginning (from quest 2 --> Virtual Desktop --> SteamVR --> boot up devices --> VRChat), the last boot up device cannot be seen in VRChat, but works well in SteamVR.

[marsh elm]

disable q2 controllers before booting up vrchat

if you're gonna use the indexes

[lethal bridge]

that issue seems to stem from the fact that VRC currently only looks at the first 8 tracked devices after the controllers

[silent mirage]

I disabled it, so I can use Valve Index Controllers.

[rustic berry]

or, alternatively, enable "Use controllers as gamepad" in virtual desktop

[marsh elm]

i think vrchat borks with multiple controllers online

[rustic berry]

and then disable gamepad support in steamvr

[marsh elm]

ya

[rustic berry]

therefore q2 controllers do fuckall

[marsh elm]

it'd be fun to build a switch in the battery compartment, to turn it on/off easily 😆

i hate putting my controllers on a table to use steamvr controllers, and the q2 keeping guardian on full blast until it gives up on them

[silent mirage]

I use OpenVR-InputEmulator to disable Quest 2 controller via SteamVR interface.

[silent mirage]

I'll try it. Thank you so much!

[marsh elm]

might be the issue 😄

vrchat might be picking up the controllers' smell on some weird ass corner of steamvr haha

gota disable them before steamvr knows about it

[silent mirage]

yes, the quest 2 controllers gray out once I disabled it, and I guess VRChat pick up the specific numbers of devices no matter what they are.

[lethal bridge]

its a frustrating limitation honestly

[marsh elm]

wat, people have been doing 11 point on vrchat without issue

[lethal bridge]

why not just load as many devices as SteamVR has? VRChat already uses distance based method to ignore trackers

[marsh elm]

can't see how it'd only pick up the first 8 devices and not be a known issue (just controllers + all trackers is like 10 devices)

[silent mirage]

does people use Quest 2 with Valve Controllers?

[lethal bridge]

first 8 after HMD and controllers that aren't tracking references

so the moment you have another controller or tracker for whatever reason good luck trying to get VRChat to act correctly

[silent mirage]

Today I use 7 trackers instead of 8, and it runs perfectly. I give up using Chest tracker because VRChat cannot recognize the last boot up device if there are 2 extra quest 2 controller under disable state in SteamVR device list.

because the software I use does not support by VRChat team officially, so I feel a bit frustrated about how to ask.. xD

[rustic berry]

make sure none of the trackers are assigned as "Held in hand"

[silent mirage]

they are all specify to the body part in SteamVR tracker setting page.

[vast tangle]

Bump to raise awareness of the issue

https://feedback.vrchat.com/sdk-bug-reports/p/ik2-auto-footstep-not-using-idle-foot-position-as-base

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/733222827817435158/980667839717453864/VRChat_2022.05.29_-_21.02.44.07_Trim.mp4

[silent mirage]

issue solved (from #ik-2 message)

disable 1 base station before launch steamvr

[vast tangle]

What

[silent mirage]

ref: https://steamcommunity.com/app/250820/discussions/0/2686880925157639389/#c1636416768323526119

[vast tangle]

Technically steamvr can track as many trackers as your usb controllers will allow

[silent mirage]

steamvr device count limit is 16.

and base station also count as device in steamvr.

[vast tangle]

Basestations don’t transmit any data to the pc, I don’t think they count

[silent mirage]

but the result said it counted.

[vast tangle]

They show up in steamvr when a tracker detects a new unique basestation

[silent mirage]

sorry, I make you misunderstand. xD

I shouldn't have said steamvr limit because that's not entirely correct

[digital grove]

You should make a canny

[robust tangle]

This is the most annoying bug I’ve been dealing with for almost 2 years now - please upvote the canny in my discord bio if you would like to get it noticed and fixed

Probably should just just post it here https://vrchat.canny.io/avatar-30/p/bugbuild-1004-avatars-30-emotes-on-index-do-not-have-root-transform-applied-prop

I gave up and just ended up buying Vive wands to avoid the bug. Only use them when doing MMD worlds or want to do action menu emotes

[vast tangle]

What is MMD anyway

[robust tangle]

The reason VRChat has so many anime avatars

[vast tangle]

That doesn’t answer it

[robust tangle]

It’s a program called Miku Miku Dance for rendering models dancing. Much of its content was moved to VRChat in its very early days. In VRChat it just means worlds that make your avatar dance on its own without motion controls

[digital grove]

o dam tracked internally for 2 years

[robust tangle]

And reported by someone who is now a VRChat dev xD

[digital grove]

lmaooo

[robust tangle]

This is off topic for this channel but man that's my biggest wishlist right there. it has ruined so many MMD dance parties with friends. everyone's just stacked on top of each other and while people still have fun, it's mostly just laughing at how broken it all is.

and it's action wheel emotes too, you stay locked at player position

[digital grove]

easy fix, just learn the dance and do it on fbt

[robust tangle]

i cannot fly IRL

[digital grove]

skill issue

[lethal bridge]

Hopefully you don't mind, but I've added your new insight to my canny post with sister topic: https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/add-support-to-populate-more-connected-trackers

[digital grove]

@rustic berry

"drink tracker"

[obtuse dagger]

[obtuse dagger]

Life it's empty without FBT.

[silent mirage]

thank you very much! 🙏

[jade sleet]

i did the same it seems that we are not going to get a fix soon lol

[plucky dawn]

does chest tracker matter on the weight paint of avatar? like should i be more precise on the weight paint of the chest bone?

[maiden rock]

It helps to have the chest accurately weighted

I.e. generally it follows your sternum/ribcage

[robust tangle]

Find people to vote the issue up and make it the top voted bug in its category, currently it’s #6. That would get it noticed :p

It doesn’t just break MMD worlds it breaks action emotes too and I don’t feel like using vive controllers all the time just to avoid it

[tame pewter]

breaks afk animations using root transform

[robust tangle]

yep that's the big one

[maiden rock]

Does this bug still happen with the Tony Lewis approved avatar config for MMD Worlds? https://vrclibrary.com/wiki/books/guide-to-mmd-dance-world-full-support-logic/page/base-layer

[tame pewter]

idk what that means, but my avatar worked fine in mmd worlds without any changes to the locomotion layer

[maiden rock]

I defer to the Japanese being more expert at this kind of thing

[robust tangle]

the bug in question is remote only. All MMD worlds "look" like work for you.

Index controller users won't move away from their player location for observers.

[robust tangle]

Send me a world and I'll tell you if the bug effects it or not (Though I garunte you there isn't a workaround)

also this is the wrong channel for this 😄

well, kind of. i guess IK2 update did make the bug worse.

[maiden rock]

I usually use iY MMD World

[robust tangle]

I'll test it this evening.

Though even if it works it just means Tony found a workaround

[robust tangle]

You could ask @night flower_Lewis#1234

or discord could derp with the @ lol

[maiden rock]

I wonder if I came across because of the original issue I faced, been a while now

[vestal oriole]

Sitting controller already does that, just wrong

[obtuse dagger]

New IK actually good with real height

[silent mirage]

I agree, it is much better on dancing.

[mortal herald]

the only big problem its with the new IK on most avatar if you try to put ur hand behind ur head the arm gonna twist

(going to buy 2 more tracker to fix it)

[raw wadi]

Imagine having issue

[worn bobcat]

has vrchat changed the way it reads trackers? i'm crashing on startup, i'm using a steamvr driver to emulate vive trackers

[elfin relic]

VRChat made it so only trackers can be trackers and they have to be correctly identified. And something with Touchlink identifies incorrectly to cause a bug. D4VR still works surprisingly.

https://github.com/mm0zct/Oculus_Touch_Steam_Link/issues/4

[woven gulch]

Gotta be named generic_tracker or something

[elfin relic]

The crashing that is caused with Touchlink seems to specifically caused by the trackers internal name.

Internally Touchlink is already identifying as a generic_tracker.

[worn bobcat]

other stuff like ATT appears to be working, and it also just uses the generic_tracker

[lethal bridge]

curious, do the created vive trackers have the vive tracker model in the empty Steamvr space (not SteamVR home)?

[worn bobcat]

they do

VRProperties()->SetStringProperty(m_ulPropertyContainer, Prop_RenderModelName_String, "{htc}vr_tracker_vive_1_0");```
it just uses the same model

[lethal bridge]

right but that's the incorrect path

[worn bobcat]

that's what i thougth at first as well, but it doesn't appear to matter, i tried the actual path as well

as well as it appears that is the same path as it uses in the input profile

[lethal bridge]

if the third (hmd?) object doesn't show, is it a problem with the hmd tracker?

[worn bobcat]

that's not an issue at least for me, the issue is that even with just two, vrchat crashes on startup

[lethal bridge]

Is the only error you're getting the "Failed to get render model name for the tracked object None"?

[worn bobcat]

yes, but i don't believe that's the cause

i think it might have to do with the way the trackers are being updated

i just tried commenting out everything in the update function, and vrchat didn't crash, but i'm still getting that error

[lethal bridge]

which function are you referring to? the ServerDriver's RunFrame()?

[worn bobcat]

sorry for not clarifying

i mean the pose update function for the trackers

these

[lethal bridge]

weird..

[worn bobcat]

if i don't update the pose at all it appears to not crash vrchat, but if i try to update it, it does

it's so inconsistent

it's incredibly hard figuring out what is causing it

[lethal bridge]

after a quick glance, the only main difference I can see between Aero's fork (which supposedly works) and mm0zct's repo is Aero only generates "Controllers" and uses a definitely negative, non-zero pose time offset

but seriously, why VRChat would break because of a OpenVR pose update is puzzling to me

[worn bobcat]

it's so weird

it was also working a yesterday morning for me, and it just suddenly broke

[worn bobcat]

so i'm pretty sure the "Failed to get render model name for tracked object None" has nothing to do with this, because i still get that even with the driver disabled

[elfin relic]

The people that talk about this in the driver4vr discord got their problems immediately with the update

[worn bobcat]

i had some issues with it, but it worked if i just started vrchat again

[elfin relic]

Went back in the chat, one named PiXel reported the same.

But also clearing the VRC cache, not sure if that actually helped because that would be a really odd bug.

[worn bobcat]

i have done that as well and didn't seem to help

[elfin relic]

Well I am out of my depth so good luck.

[oak pendant]

Yo, I won't be able to get fully in to troubleshooting your custom driver unfortunately but I wanted to drop in to suggest that you use the --enable-ik-debug-logging to see a bit more of what's going on, and also make sure that your tracker driver returns a unique serial number for each device it's responsible for.

To work with calibration the full and only requirements are that its tracked device class is as a generic tracker, that it returns a unique serial number and that it isn't located at precisely (0,0,0).

[lethal bridge]

Thanks for the tip Kung

[robust tangle]

has bug.

[maiden rock]

Damn

[granite lark]

thx to the new ik 2 i now look like im costantly carrying 2 bread loafs aronde under my arms thx saten

[final raven]

In Progress
Thanks @oak pendant
https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/1202-swapping-between-avatar-measurement-methods-should-retain-your-saved-calibr

[digital grove]

What

[granite lark]

https://tenor.com/view/michelle-tanner-strong-flexing-gif-5906052

[digital grove]

[olive tulip]

Forgive me, but what is this crap together IK?
Is there any timeline for when the fixes are coming?

I spent about 8 hours trying to fix the situation. Tried different calibration options, changed --custom-arm-ratio and new IK did NOT work correct

<@&397642795457970181>

[solemn peak]

chat mods cant help you with this or give any support. ask in the #ik-2 channel for help

oh god im sorry its 5am

er, this is the ik channel but mods still can't help you i mean

[olive tulip]

@oak pendant

[oak pendant]

Do you use a constraint setup on your legs?

Also did your issues behave better for you in legacy IK?

[olive tulip]

No. It's a classic rexouium.

The robot, if I make the same movements in it, behaves similarly

[oak pendant]

Does it behave any better in legacy?

[olive tulip]

The old IK is breaking my body. But my legs work better

[oak pendant]

Interesting, the current knee bend direction binding from IK pose is same as legacy, but you might be affected by an issue I'm still tracking down/observing: https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/bug-avatar-foot-is-not-locked-to-foot-tracker

It'd probably be worth adding your video to this and voting there so you can see as updates occur

Oh, by the way, you're using your actual IRL User Real Height, correct?

(I'd assume so if you've been spending time chasing this issue)

[worn bobcat]

so i tried using the --enable-ik-debug-logging launch option

it doesn't tell me anything, but you might have an idea as to why it's crashing here

2022.06.01 14:24:54 Log        -  [VRCTrackingSteam] [IK Debug Log] [Steam] Refreshing tracker info...


2022.06.01 14:24:54 Log        -  [VRCTrackingSteam] [IK Debug Log] [Steam] Tracker info for WMHD316J600000_Controller_Left was created


2022.06.01 14:24:54 Log        -  [VRCTrackingSteam] [IK Debug Log] [Steam] Tracker info for WMHD316J600000_Controller_Right was created
```

[oak pendant]

Do those have the device class of controller or generic tracker?

[worn bobcat]

they should be generic trackers
vr::VRProperties()->SetInt32Property(m_ulPropertyContainer, vr::Prop_DeviceClass_Int32, vr::TrackedDeviceClass_GenericTracker);

[olive tulip]

I tried changing my height from 170 to 190. My real height is 178, it was set when I recorded the video

[worn bobcat]

if (isRightHand) {
    m_sSerialNumber = "WMHD316J600000_Controller_Right";
    m_sModelNumber = "Oculus Rift CV1(Right Controller)";
}
else {
    m_sSerialNumber = "WMHD316J600000_Controller_Left";
    m_sModelNumber = "Oculus Rift CV1(Left Controller)";
}```

the controller thing is just the serial number for it

[oak pendant]

Ok, yeah I'd recommend setting it to your actual height and not straying from that. If you want to fit the avatar automatically then Avatar Measurement toggle set to by height would be the best way there. If you need to adjust further set measurement back to by arms then adjust the custom arm ratio. I can imagine one reason why knee direction would have trouble on Rexouium, but it would be the same as in legacy. The knee prediction point is set based on the length of the shin, which is very short on that avatar (foot to knee distance) That might cause strange behavior, but it would cause the same issue on legacy.

I'll have to see if I can reproduce this issue. I'll check on the default robot as well and compare the foot stretched back pose on legacy and IK2.0

[oak pendant]

Are you using actual Oculus hardware and is it also appearing in SteamVR?

I mean, are you using an emulated tracker driver but also having the oculus hardware active and visible to SteamVR simultaneously?

[worn bobcat]

only the emulated vive trackers are visible but those emulated vive trackers are rift cv1 controllers and the actual cv1 controllers are not used by steamvr

[oak pendant]

Ok, it's possible that when I'm able to get on the task of investigating the non generic tracker tracked device crash that solving that would solve your issue as well.

[worn bobcat]

perhaps

[oak pendant]

As far as I can tell, you're doing things correctly, sending a generic tracker with a serial number. My suspicion is that there's simultaneously visible other hardware that may be causing an issue. But that may not be the case

[worn bobcat]

the oddest thing is that it was working a couple of days ago

as well as it's really inconsistent as to when it crashes

[oak pendant]

A couple of days ago meaning on release IK2.0?

[worn bobcat]

it was working yesterday morning for me 30~ hours ago

[oak pendant]

(not as far back as ik beta I mean)

[worn bobcat]

but even then it had crashed once or twice, presumably from the same issue as now

i think i might have just made a discovery

give me a few seconds to test some things

okay, so i've just managed to calibrate an avatar without vrchat crashing

[oak pendant]

What was the factor that you changed?

[worn bobcat]

i changed the serial number

[oak pendant]

Interesting, what one was causing a crash and what one wasn't?

[worn bobcat]

i tried just using the serial number that's in the vive_tracker_profile ie LHR-00000003 and LHR-00000004 and that seemed to work

[oak pendant]

and then things like WMHD316J600000_Controller_Right were crashing before that?

[worn bobcat]

might have been a fluke though, because i'm 50% sure i tried that

[worn bobcat]

yes

[oak pendant]

Either way, great info. I can force VRC to internally see serial numbers different from what SteamVR reports so I'll be able to test this on those serial numbers and see if I can replicate a crash just based on the serial or not

if not it may actually be a SteamVR issue... but if the tracked devices are appearing in the overlay that seems like it would be unlikely

[lethal bridge]

oh very interesting. i thought you were using the standard stuff from the touchlink repo

[oak pendant]

Oh hi tkya, if you try using more standard LHR style serials and it fixes your issue too, please let me know

[worn bobcat]

i had my own fork of it with some custom offsets for my setup
i just download the one from mm0zct and WMHD316J600000_Controller_ is the default in there

[worn bobcat]

am about to try that with the third controller i have

[worn bobcat]

appears to work

i'm gonna make a pull request in a minute

i wanna clean up a few things first

[lethal bridge]

hi kung. my issue was resolved after finding a bug in my driver code incorrectly setting the device class. my serials are far from standard looking serials though

maybe its the length of the serial string?

[oak pendant]

Hmm ok, thanks for the info in any case. Yeah that's what I was thinking too, though it should have enough capacity

But throwing various serials at it to try to break things will be the first thing I do when I can get back on this tracked device task

(next patch has some more immediate benefit type little things that needed to be worked through first)

[lethal bridge]

are you sure? on the main branch of mm0zct's repo neither the controller nor tracker devices have serials like this

though even so, it still supposedly has the same issue

[worn bobcat]

https://github.com/mm0zct/Oculus_Touch_Steam_Link/blob/fec72c891fe6f7de7dba7a2eabcea92eb3c46123/CustomHMD/OculusTouchLink.cpp#L509

i'm starting to know this driver pretty well at this point

[lethal bridge]

ah, my bad. misread the rendermodel part for it

[worn bobcat]

all good 👍

[lethal bridge]

though interestingly, it has a tracker driver with better looking serials

any chance youve tried that instead?

[worn bobcat]

?

where?

[lethal bridge]

the sampletrackerdriver class

[obtuse dagger]

Delta, you been working on a OTL update?

[lethal bridge]

which interestingly is not in aero's fork, but now looking again at it the difference between the samplecontrollerdriver in aero's fork and the main is the serial number...

think youve found the culprit delta

[worn bobcat]

i have it working, just give me a bit

i'm having another issue now

[lethal bridge]

what would that be

my guess of the serial issue is vrc doesn't like the length of the string

or double underscore

[worn bobcat]

i did something to cause the tracked object to not initialize correctly

[obtuse dagger]

I will be able to test anything.

[worn bobcat]

figured it out, i just miss-typed

[oak pendant]

Hmm giving this some thought, if it were a simple issue with string size, this log entry would be unable to appear:

2022.06.01 14:24:54 Log        -  [VRCTrackingSteam] [IK Debug Log] [Steam] Tracker info for WMHD316J600000_Controller_Left was created

Because by that point we've successfully acquired the serial. But in any case I'll start chasing this from the serial angle when I can get on it. Thanks for sharing your findings as you go along.

[worn bobcat]

no problem, and thanks for your help as well!

[lethal bridge]

btw did you have a problem with aeroscript's fork of touchlink?

[obtuse dagger]

I used hyblocks version but that one didn't work with Virtual Desktop as no trackers were actually tracked in STEAMVR but they were feeding data. It was working only in ALVR but the hip didn't track.

[obtuse dagger]

No way you fixed it!

[lethal bridge]

speaking of hip doesnt track, delta, are you using the hmd device too?

[worn bobcat]

i'm using a third controller, but the fix should also work for the headset

[lethal bridge]

did you need to change anything in the sample headset driver class?

[worn bobcat]

i removed some code that essentially did nothing, as well as changed the serial number, that's all

[lethal bridge]

thought I read there was entirely different issue with headset but maybe not.
also been under the impression I can't help dev this driver but then just now realized I have a quest2 sitting somewhere 🤣

[worn bobcat]

haha it's all good mate

having someone to talk to about this has been great

[obtuse dagger]

Please share the github link when you want, I'm really excited about it.

[worn bobcat]

having issues with git :(

[obtuse dagger]

Awh, I barely use github, but if you want you can send me the files in DM and I will try it out.

[worn bobcat]

okay, there

https://github.com/DeltaNeverUsed/Oculus_Touch_Steam_Link

[marsh elm]

I'm not sure how touch steam link works, would it be possible to calibrate both Q2 and Vive space to CV1 with OVR space calibrator?

[worn bobcat]

so you have a quest headset with vive/index controllers and then CV1 controllers as trackers?

[marsh elm]

something like that, i don't have the CV1 yet, but its on its way

idea was to use Q2, CV1 controllers as hands, and vive trackers as.. trackers

[worn bobcat]

i don't see why you wouldn't be able to, it might just be a bit tedious since you have to calibrate twice instead of once

[marsh elm]

from what i've heard, space cal wasnt able to sync 3 spaces at once

that's why i asked 😄

[worn bobcat]

ah, i'm not sure then

[marsh elm]

i absolutely love the touch controllers, and touch controllers without occlusion + Q2 wireless sound perfect

[obtuse dagger]

It works!!

[marsh elm]

but wouldnt be useful for vrchat if i cant sync them all

[obtuse dagger]

Damn Delta, you are amazing.

[worn bobcat]

i have no idea if you'll be able to align the playspaces or not, but i really don't see a reason why it isn't possible, you'd just have to change the tracking space in Oculus Touch Link

[marsh elm]

Sorry, i never used touch link, does it automatically sync with Vive space or does it need calibration ?

or maybe it's a one time-thing?

[worn bobcat]

well, it kinda depends

[marsh elm]

that might be a RTFM kinda question

haha

[worn bobcat]

so by default it uses space 31 which is the vive playspace, but if you're already using the vive playspace for something else you'll have to change it to be a different playspace

[marsh elm]

not really sure how space cal works, if it just offsets one of the spaces or merges them, wasnt aware it was a thing in the first place 😅

guess i'll figure it out in practice

[worn bobcat]

i believe it just offsets it and you can choose what space you're offsetting so you should be able to

[marsh elm]

*cue me somehow holding three controllers on one hand, madly calibrating*

[worn bobcat]

you can do it one at a time haha

[ruby cloud]

Should I put the trackers on my ankle or higher up on the leg when i already have feet trackers?

[marsh elm]

above knee, iirc

it needs to be above/before the joint, same for elbows

upper arm

[devout current]

It actually doesn't need to be, but it's recommended to do so yeah.

[vast tangle]

Personally I recommend placing knee trackers just above the knee on the side of your leg so they don’t get in the way

The positioning reminds me of like a robotic leg joint

Elbow trackers for me just below the bicep

[vast tangle]

Any higher up and they tend to fall down because the leg is much thicker the higher up you go, whereas at the knee they can’t fall if properly tightened

[lethal bridge]

Are y'all wearing harnesses for your knee trackers or something

[vast tangle]

No just straps

[lethal bridge]

How do you keep the trackers comfortably on your upper leg?

[vast tangle]

.

[lethal bridge]

My thigh is like thicc round

[vast tangle]

.

[lethal bridge]

There is no "just put it above the knee" it'll fall right off

[vast tangle]

Not “just put it above the knee”, “put it just above the knee”