ik-2

[final sphinx]

[tight aurora]

ig this should be marked as complete now https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/5-point-tracking-no-hip-tracker

[undone plinth]

this has been seen by at least two devs already anyways lmao

[oak pendant]

Ah yeah, I need to take a pass through the canny now with all the features in this update

[zenith glacier]

yeah, had to turn up the volume pretty high but as ffxiv player i recognized it xD

[harsh lagoon]

nerrrdddd

[undone plinth]

I keep t-posing out of habit

[carmine gate]

few things are actually capped in character length on vrchat anyway. and Id rather it stay like that. text flying off the UI is fucking hilarious

[tight aurora]

i cant make the banana batman joke awesome

[undone plinth]

Kung, what would the viability of a cancel and revert button be for those accidental calibrations?

I can canny it but since you're here, is it something possible without major refactors?

or does it toss the old data out the moment you click calibrate?

[oak pendant]

It would be medium effort, just because of how it's set up now. Starting a new calibration clears the old one, then some things depend on the old one being cleared

[carmine gate]

kung, you did it you wonderful son of a bitch.

I can spawn Amethyst/K2EX trackers AFTER STARTING VRCHAT and they get detected properly and FBT is enabled.

💙 Take all the love from me.

[oak pendant]

It would be possible, but would need some reworking of things

[oak pendant]

Awesome! Actually I'd like people to test as much as possible on the various kinds of emulated trackers out there

[undone plinth]

Yeah that's fair. That's what I was expecting code flow wise

[maiden rock]

I suppose given that the chest bone and not the upper chest bone is being affected by the chest tracker, I should probably reconsider the amount of influence the upper chest has over the mesh and maybe decrease and raise it more than it is

[undone plinth]

The alternative would be a confirmation double-click on calibrate if you already have one but that'd be behavior that goes completely against the current UI design.

[oak pendant]

Possibly, having upper chest will give more room for IK to fix things between the tracked chest and the head, but that means less direct control. Depends on what people want

[oak pendant]

Yeah, I think doing it that way is kind of unlikely. Probably the ability to accidently clear out your calibration if you hit the calibrate button will just stay. At least you won't accidently clear calibration by clicking on an avatar pedestal anymore

[robust tangle]

love elbow only tracking, but want sitting mode with it

[oak pendant]

Hmm, yeah doing a calibration when in seated mode could be problematic. But maybe solvable

[undone plinth]

Yeah that's fair. A confirmation button breaks the defined UX, and I can imagine a fair chunk of refactoring would be needed otherwise. It'd be a very nice QOL thing but it lies in the medium-effort for (relatively) low gain. Accidental calibrate isn't THAT common

[robust tangle]

i'd be fine with standing to calibrate but sitting toggle goes away

UI issue

[oak pendant]

Yeah it's a good point. I think that one's worth a canny. I don't want to forget about it

[undone plinth]

Lying on back in t pose calibration when for all lazy bed sitters

Just flip the axis 90 degrees and call it a day

[carmine gate]

game crashed when I enabled extra trackers in Amethyst. I had verbose logging on and saved a copy of the log. will look if theres anything pertaining to the crash and make a Canny later.

[oak pendant]

Thanks, nice that you had verbose logging on

[undone plinth]

Actually, I wonder how well that'd work. If you could genuinely just rotate everything by 90 degrees and it just work.

In theory it could lmao

[carmine gate]

Correction, I did not. :(

let's see if I can reproduce it

I reset my launch options a while back when taking a screenshot to show someone how to change them

[pure hedge]

Chest tracker, stomach tracker, hehe

[knotty acorn]

holding down trigger when calibrating does this

[undone plinth]

Brrr

I did find the small camera jump that was happening now a bit disorienting but I'm sure I'll get used to it.

[oak pendant]

Yeah that's part of the avatar reset after calibration, which is necessary now not to break other things

oop enter too fast

(new keyboard haha)

[undone plinth]

Is it destroying the game object?

That's a lot of extra mesh loading/unloading that could become funky hitches

If it's killing the GO

[oak pendant]

Yeah, hmm that's not good

[honest apex]

Very much dislike the new auto switch upon tracker setup change ~ freezing the lower body IK upon turning off one tracker was actually a very useful feature of old IK.

[prisma meadow]

Pretty useful for when you sleep in vr

[final sphinx]

or when it lost tracking yeah

[undone plinth]

Oh God, is it now remapping things when a Tracker shuts off?

[honest apex]

It auto remaps, yes.

[undone plinth]

Yeah that's bad for people who lie down

[final sphinx]

:c

[prisma meadow]

I hope we just get a massive menu with like 50 different toggles for fbt

[oak pendant]

Yeah this was brought up a bit during some closed testing, I checked to make sure that legacy IK still freezes the lower body

[maiden rock]

Makes sense, there's a lot to consider now with how the overall skeletal structure translates to vrc ik movement with all the trackers present. I think overall this is good, but we'll have to work out some best practices and gotchas as part of the rigging process.

[honest apex]

Legacy IK still does~ really hope by release of the new IK there's at least a toggle for it.

[undone plinth]

Yeah.. That's a behavior I'd love to keep without having to use legacy IK

[honest apex]

^^

[undone plinth]

I've had so many cases where a Tracker has shut off and I haven't realized it's since I got my elbow trackers

[carmine gate]

tried reproducing it, but couldn't. enabling extra trackers and recalibrating on the fly worked perfect this time. exact same order too.

the only difference is that when it crashed the first time. I ran into a "known" SteamVR bug where enabling emulated trackers in certain drivers can cause them to steal input away from one or both of the hand controllers EVEN IF THEIR ROLES ARE NOT SET TO HELD IN HAND.

As it so happens, when VRChat crashed, both of my controllers had their input stolen. So it must've been related to the controllers losing input.

[undone plinth]

If I lie down on my side with a tundra on my arm, I end up occluding the tundra long enough that it shuts off. But, it maintains its position so my pose still looks right until I eventually move and then turn the tracker back on

[carmine gate]

nothing in the logs

and the input stealing bug happens at completely random (partly why its not been fixed yet)

so I cant easily reproduce that

[undone plinth]

Legacy is restrictive. I'd really like to see that as a toggle for new IK.

I'm on mobile can someone open a canny so we can scope out demand I guess

[flint bison]

Ah yes, I complained about the weird arm bending issues a few weeks ago, glad to say they’re fixed :)

[oak pendant]

Ok thanks for taking another look at it. Yeah that sounds like the likely cause then. I'll keep a look out for that happening more.

[undone plinth]

I've had vrc crash when I disconnected all my devices, specifically when I shut off my final controller

[honest apex]

https://vrchat.canny.io/vrchat-ik-20/p/feedbackrequest-lock-ik-when-a-tracker-turns-off

[carmine gate]

oh shit, you can reproduce it?

gamer bug hunting moment

vrchat wrong warp any% is finally viable with this strat

[undone plinth]

I hit a crash like that more than once before but I assumed it was steamvr

Because I've had steamvr freak out in the past when disconnecting everything

[oak pendant]

I think that's a different issue, that was actually fixed by this patch. Trackers won't remap to the incorrect one now

[oak pendant]

If getting a canny up for it, please detail how you'd expect it to work in combination with per-tracker IK

[honest apex]

Yeh~ Should I create a different canny or just leave a comment on that one?

[oak pendant]

a different one, if it's about asking individual trackers to lock in space when failing

the previous one was more about incorrect remapping

[honest apex]

Alright

[oak pendant]

I should probably mark that previous one as fixed (though you still have the issue that you want tracking to stop when a tracker fails, rather than use IK)

[undone plinth]

Two separate issues to be fair. Don't want the old canny getting confused with the new issue and then never being addressed

People go and vote on the old one that is no longer relevant

[knotty acorn]

always wondered, why does VRC freeze IK when you enter a solid object?

[undone plinth]

It's 3:30 a.m. so I can't really think about design at the moment but all crunch my brain on possible approaches tomorrow that maintains user friendliness (Not something like a toggle between "per tracker ik" and "full map".)
I have a feeling this is one that a lot of people are going to care about though.

I mean technically shutting the per tracker map off and having the old behavior would probably satisfy a lot of people but it's not a good solution

Especially since you can get it through legacy but then you're stuck with 6pt.

[oak pendant]

Yeah, I get the main problem so I'll think about it too. Though if asking for a toggle, the legacy toggle is there for people who "like the old way better" I understand though that they want new features from IK2.0 mixed in.

[undone plinth]

Yeah.

It's not an easy one

A really big ui menu with 50 buttons would be great right about now 😛

[oak pendant]

So just a sense of precisely what people are asking for would be helpful. I expect people would discuss in the canny

[undone plinth]

Yeah

Can we just go back to the days of cvars

I miss those days

[oak pendant]

Haha, yeah people complain about more launch options etc... There's a good chance we can get more stuff in the UI some time after the main menu update comes out (no promises, but after that is when it'd have to be)

[undone plinth]

Just give us quake /source style cvars and we can call it a compromise

[oak pendant]

Haha you gonna type /commands in vr?

[honest apex]

Bet. lol

[undone plinth]

Honestly configure it once and have autoexec.cfg, yeah

And then make it save the updated config when you edit a cvar

Still less effort then rebooting the game, recalibration, requesting to get back into the instance, etc 😛

But I get vrc has many different users from many different backgrounds. You have us people spoiled by ye ol dev console and then people who have very little experience. There's a balance to strike.

[maiden rock]

Cvars are life

Bring down that console window

[undone plinth]

I'm personally in the "just make an ugly ui menu that's hidden away from the average user where people can toggle any number of combination of options" boat still I get why that's not super viable

[maiden rock]

I got spoiled by the console window in Helios where it even auto suggests command completion

[undone plinth]

Make us click the version number a bunch of times to make it like Android

[minor rampart]

@oak pendant I know this is not directly IK, but it's definitely related to FBT---is there any chance we will ever get the ability to turn locomotion on/off?

Having it be something you have to compile into your avy is unfortunate. Sometimes you wanna look like you're running around--other times, when lying down or sitting, you'd rather float.

[undone plinth]

Did helios have a console that didn't suck? NEOS' irc bot was terrible from when I tried neos.

[oak pendant]

🤔 Air gesture rune commands for all options?

[strong sundial]

We just need kung to threaten to add more launch options and Im sure the ui team would let him do a big ugly ik menu

[maiden rock]

Think it's basically a console feature from the unreal engine, pretty solid implementation

[pulsar pelican]

Hey. I have one question about the new IK and elbow tracking.. Since I really can't click my trigger or grip on the left controller when locking into FBT tracking due to an injury, I usually do it with my controllers over my chest so I can click both controllers with my right hand. It's not perfect, but it works. I guess elbow tracking would completely freak out and be horribly calibrated? Do someone here have 10point and can try this?
For as far as I know you can't change what buttons you press for calibration. But please inform me if I'm wrong.

[oak pendant]

That one's on the canny and I'm aware it's wanted. No promise/comment at the moment (which means that's not a no)

[undone plinth]

I mean, OSC is supposedly going to have a UI to replace the json down the line and I can't imagine that being a simple UI

[minor rampart]

fair enough. Thanks

[strong sundial]

huh, that would be useful

[undone plinth]

That's gonna be a dev ui through and through for it to be useful

[minor rampart]

having a higher network sync rate is direly needed for OSC, at the moment--unless you blend animations, things look wonky for eye/face tracking----but that's neither here nor there.

having your pie menu's open for a better rate is...uh...unideal

[undone plinth]

Well this new update has been very nice to me so far so I'm happy beyond the IK lock change, but we've kinda hit the extent of that discussion for now.

[oak pendant]

A possible alternative, if you press the spacekey it'll also trigger the calibrate. In your case you could maybe have some kind of macro set up to do that with a delay

[undone plinth]

Someone needs to open a canny with a viable alternative that isn't UI menu with 50 buttons and we can continue that convo from there

[oak pendant]

Yeah, I'm aware it's an issue. Which at least had me make sure to keep it functioning that way in legacy mode

(legacy actually gets a bit of the calibration saving stuff, because the underlying tracker handling that gets to legacy mode too has changed)

[carmine gate]

Im wondering too

[undone plinth]

I've been spoiled by knee trackers Kung my immersion is ruined because legacy without knee trackers places them in spots that aren't where my knees are

[random coyote]

I'd love this so much and upvoted the canny post the other day. I have a toggle on all my avatars using AV3 but it would be nice to not have to set that up on every avatar

[strong sundial]

The entire new ik system has just spoiled us. These updates have been honestly more exciting than AD for myself personally

[pulsar pelican]

Ah, so space locks in as well? That's really good to know 👍 I'll have a look around in a bit if I can find a nice macro thing that I can trigger from my controllers. Or just have a cheap keyboard on the floor 😏

[undone plinth]

A global locomotion toggle can be more complex than you'd expect because of stations.

[oak pendant]

I think it's a platform level decision for how to handle preventing users from just walking through solid VR objects. Every VR app has to figure out a way to deal with that IRL vs VR issue. It could be handled other ways though

[strong sundial]

full boneworks style collision when /s

[undone plinth]

God no

[oak pendant]

Just make sure your macro has the spacebar down long enough to be detected during a frame and it'll work. Sometimes macros are nearly instant and can be missed.

[undone plinth]

Is the plan to keep legacy around long term? It being in the UI implies that'd be a yes.

But that's also tech debt

And God knows you guys don't need more of that

[oak pendant]

That's the plan yeah, but long term != forever. So no promises. And people will have different impressions of what "long" means. But yeah the effort was put in with the intent of allowing it to be used.

[silver geyser]

certainly has looked a lot more mellow in here

[undone plinth]

Yep. Long term is a useless term in software .

Unity LTS 2 year cycles lmao

[pulsar pelican]

Roger that. I'll look into it. Thanks :)

[lethal light]

kung, have you seen the canny I made about the chest/spine not being able to bend backwards or sideways?

[oak pendant]

Yeah, I saw that. I hadn't made a final decision about to handle so I haven't made a comment yet, but what you're asking for in there would cause a lot of issues. If it can bend in any direction based on the rotation of the tracked objects feeding into the chain, and it gets as much spine crunch as lock-all tends to need to deal with, the spine would rapidly shoot around to different bend directions as you move. Think like pushing on a bent twig between your fingers trying to make it bend another direction. It'd snap around a lot

Chest tracking will allow you to get a bit more of what you're asking for, but that costs money for more trackers

Lock hip will probably give the best looking leaning back bend for the spine if that's what you're after, but I assume you're interested in the other features of lock-all as well

[harsh sierra]

More trackers when

[oak pendant]

What else do you want?

[harsh sierra]

Uh

[lethal light]

Got it, was just wondering. I might have to do some testing with a chest tracker then since async trackers are now a thing, and yeah I am only interested in lock-all as too many other things have to be sacrificed when using either head or hips

[mystic elm]

If you need more then 11 point tracking, im concerned

[harsh sierra]

Actually entirely seriously, the "best case" would be shoulders this point as that gets rid of the last possible location that can seriously deform

But it is seriously diminishing returns....

[oak pendant]

Hmm yeah having them actually mounted above the shoulder joint would give an accurate read on the bone rotation there

[harsh sierra]

But at that point "best possible tracking" is hitting literally £1300

[brisk zodiac]

😏

[harsh sierra]

That is insane

[oak pendant]

And yeah not only diminishing returns on dev time vs usage numbers etc, but also on average user's radiofrequency environment

[harsh sierra]

Mmm

Well the argument might be that folks would sacrifice knee trackers for full tracking of elbow and shoulder

Beyond that the only two things I can think of, and these are extremely theoretical

[oak pendant]

Already hitting 11pt can be more of the challenge than just buying the trackers. Gotta be careful about dongle placement. And if if you live in an apartment near neighbors who use a microwave all the time, not much you can do

[harsh sierra]

Yeah

[mystic elm]

Not only rf, all the usb ports you need aswell

[harsh sierra]

It would be nice to be able to use those 8 trackers strategically mind

[oak pendant]

Tundra's dongles can help with usb port limitations but yeah

[harsh sierra]

Any more is insane

[mystic elm]

i keep forgetting about tundra ones

[harsh sierra]

At that point it becomes a case of getting someone to get one of those Rokoko kits working in VRC. Strapping a dozen USB devices to someone is incredibly niche

[harsh lagoon]

butt cheek trackers when?

[oak pendant]

put a tracker on your cat and make sure it's in range of your foot when you calibrate, then your foot will always point the way to your cat! (I'm not responsible if you step on your cat)

[harsh sierra]

Oh no

I mean

[mystic elm]

cat starts running around the room wearing the tracker

[harsh sierra]

That was kinda my last possible addition. Some way of wiring up that a tracker can move an avatar prop rather than just a bone

It would need a major SDK change

Probably a script to allow for marking up that a GameObject is moveable

[oak pendant]

I see what you mean. Yeah, could sorta be done with a custom app grabbing the tracker location and then syncing something over OSC to an animated bone on your avatar

[harsh sierra]

But that would allow for someone to bring a physical prop into VRC with them which could have an extremely important use

[carmine gate]

you should be able to still toggle seated/standing when using just elbows. theres already a second calibrate button in settings anyway

[harsh sierra]

Hear me out

Strap a tracker to your beer glass

[mystic elm]

Now i kinda want to put a tracker on my cat and see what happens, can i blame the vrc team for broken hardware?

[harsh sierra]

Track your drink whilst partying in VRC

[oak pendant]

Yeah AdeonWriter mentioned this as well. It's a good point

[oak pendant]

No. Blame the cat.

[harsh sierra]

OSC wise: that is not happening for the time being for anything that needs decent throughput

[mystic elm]

Blame you for the idea, got it

[carmine gate]

well im in vr testing, cant keep up with chat lol. good to hear im not alone having that concern

[harsh sierra]

It works in theory to sync a real object but the data quality is bad. Same reason few are using face trackers.

Well

That and the lack of hardware

[final raven]

[harsh sierra]

[oak pendant]

It wasn't me, it was this guy! https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FPTMROzaUAAQtHp?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

[carmine gate]

seated play height does not carry between avatars

is that known?

[harsh sierra]

Strap a tracker to your VRCat plush

[oak pendant]

I wasn't aware, though I'd assume it'd be the same on live too. Is that a change with ik beta?

[hollow sigil]

Kung, as a catboy I see this as a racist remark of giving cats the blame

[carmine gate]

ye

[hollow sigil]

I will remember this.

[oak pendant]

Depends on if you like the idea 😆 maybe I was saying cats are smart

[carmine gate]

tested in live

[hollow sigil]

Mhhhmm, staying with my point for now xD

[carmine gate]

I stay standing despite sitting on the floor IRL when switching avatars

switching in ik beta puts me back at the same height as standing mode, but still in seated mode

[oak pendant]

Ok that sounds like it deserves a canny if you have time.

[carmine gate]

https://raytracing-benchmarks.are-really.cool/4r2ezea.mp4 this bug has returned too

[oak pendant]

Are you on legacy there?

I mean legacy toggle

[carmine gate]

beta

[oak pendant]

is that AV2?

[carmine gate]

av3

[oak pendant]

Hmm, I tested for that myself and it was ok. Does it happen on many avatars?

[carmine gate]

im sorry man... i hate gamedev too

happens on all

[oak pendant]

Can't get on in vr at the moment, but it's not occurring in desktop. I'll take another look when I'm in vr again

[carmine gate]

@knotty acorn next to me just tried in vr and it doesnt happen

[oak pendant]

I was able to repro it on AV2 with a sideways jump though in desktop just now

I'll take another pass at locomotion transitions, as you can imagine per-tracker IK touched everything

[carmine gate]

yea

[hollow sigil]

So kung, are you in charge of under the hood IK?

[oak pendant]

Sort of, if I make a decision that the team doesn't like it's not like I can just push it through anyway though.

[lethal light]

rip, not meant to go to discord xD

good thing I didn't auto enter my password as well xD

[hollow sigil]

I thought you were actually doing some of the programming, I applaud your team for programming this black magic system!

[oak pendant]

I think in general we avoid naming one person as in charge of something. But yeah, I've been programming IK2.0

[hollow sigil]

Then I applaud you, and your mental state, keep up the good work!

[carmine gate]

out of VR, canny time

[hollow sigil]

Time to became canny.

[honest apex]

the ik locking "feature" is broken on legacy too now ;-;

[oak pendant]

Hmm, when I tested I was able to get it to freeze my lower body pose when turning off a tracker

[honest apex]

Whenever I try it, the tracking point merges with another

So my hip moves to my foot and then it freezes.

[oak pendant]

How many trackers did you have active total when doing that?

[honest apex]

3

[oak pendant]

Hmm, yeah I was thinking it might have issues if you had many trackers but if the 3, turned off to 2 was your case it should have locked it I think

[lethal light]

Hmm.. It seems like the neck, upper chest, and chest bones are stuck in a straight line with chest tracking
(sorry for low quality photo)

[oak pendant]

I'll do more testing later (but there's a bunch of these "do more testing later" I'm piling up, so maybe add your issue with legacy as a comment in your canny so I don't forget)

[honest apex]

Can do

[oak pendant]

Upperchest is pretty stiff when using "lock-all" chest tracking. It moves but not so much. Reason being that most models look pretty strange if there are large angle differences between chest and upperchest. But with tracked chest it's possible that would happen as the IK must make up the different in position between tracked chest and tracked head

Neck should be able to bend afaik, maybe it was just your pose?

for another view on what the bones are doing you can check in this world: https://vrchat.com/home/world/wrld_01025423-c339-4735-8af9-ba45cc9e46f2

[lethal light]

gimme one minute, index decided to die

[carmine gate]

canny time is now over

[oak pendant]

Thank you for the 4 posts!

[honest apex]

Figured out why it worked for you~ As long as the first tracker disabled is the tracker that last connected to steamVR, it works like before.

Funky but easy to do in overlay.

[oak pendant]

Ah, interesting and that makes some sense now. Thanks for figuring that out!

To confirm, is the freezing when you turn off the lucky last tracker the desired behavior here? (Does it freeze like it usually does?)

[honest apex]

Yup!

[oak pendant]

Ok cool 👍

[lethal light]

The three bones I mentioned (chest, upperchest, and neck) only seem to bend forwards and backwards (blue axis). I could not get them to bend sideways at all. I am pretty flexible so that shouldn't be an issue. Also, the neck + upperchest joint does not seem to be able to bend forward at all, leading to wierd backwards neck bend. (armature is 100% straight for the record)

[oak pendant]

If you grab on to the chest tracker and tilt it around are you able to get those bones to bend?

[lethal light]

no, they will not bend

(also it is on my back because it is a harder surface and less likely to move around, same with my hip)

[oak pendant]

Ah I see, ok I'll try to remember to check different bend directions next time I'm in too. Might forget though, you can put up a canny to help me remember if you don't mind. That might help collect info from others with the issue.

If you're able to get a video recording showing the poses where it breaks down that would help too

[lethal light]

yeah, I will make sure to put up a canny

[lethal light]

uhh.... if windows decides it wants to let me play vr again sure xD

[oak pendant]

You can add it as a comment later too if you can't get back in vr at the moment

[real bane]

I just woke up to this, glad I woke an hour early

[lethal light]

I have obs on windows, but it wont load so doing this testing from linux. I will try and get on windows in 5 min and see if I can get it to work. The pose is really messed up when trying to do the bridge xD

[real bane]

going to try chest tracking with 11 pt... fun part is mounting all these trackers

[silk magnet]

now it's so hard to choose what beta to be on. Both are just so ♥️

[rose beacon]

the chest tracker canny should probably be marked as available in open beta

[oak pendant]

oh yeah, I still need to take the time to sift through all the older ones and mark appropriately

I'll get that one now

[real bane]

Where on the chest should the tracker be?

[oak pendant]

Higher is probably better, I'm able to get mine up to slightly below armpit height

[silk magnet]

does front/back also work

[oak pendant]

As for front/back whichever is easier for you though back will probably have less occlusion but more issues when sitting

[real bane]

boy I am not sure how girls with handle the mount of the chest trackers

[maiden rock]

You at least want it higher than your sternum so that it doesn't collide with heart rate chest straps or woojers

[real bane]

chest strap is right below my arimpit

just above the nipple

too high?

[maiden rock]

Should be good

[oak pendant]

That sounds like a good location to me

[real bane]

okay first time on this new Beta IK...

not in VR yet

[oak pendant]

you could do it lower too, but you might get less difference in rotation between there and your hip tracker, reducing the meaning of chest tracking

[real bane]

If I move the chest tracker back down to where I had it before then the distance from hip and chest was 10 inches

no

10 inches now

[oak pendant]

Yeah, it's kind of a "whatever works for you" thing, but in general higher is probably better

[real bane]

before is like 6 to 7 inches

just measured

I will test and see

[oak pendant]

remember that the lock hip/head/all option changes the effect of the chest tracker

[real bane]

I do lock hips

[oak pendant]

hip/head is rotation only, all is position + rotation

[real bane]

got it

[oak pendant]

(I'll be away from discord for bit starting now)

[dry wedge]

https://twitter.com/captaincatvr/status/1501221579862290433?s=21&t=OGsVudY0umCMR9VJ6iWYBg

captaincat (@captaincatvr)

Made a chest mount @Tundra_Labs tracker base with an optional @Woojer bracket for the backside. Also included a version for 1/4" mounts. Seems to help stop the Woojer from sliding around while dancing and simplify things! https://t.co/uBinO6OeZK

Twitter · Mar 8, 2022, 3:41 PM

[maiden rock]

Gief

[dry wedge]

also uploaded a version with a screw hole for HTC
the print files are all in that link

I want to move the woojer to replace the next link up since it seems to be in the dip caused by my spine now

[lethal light]

kung if you see this, I will make the cany tomorrow
have a nice day

[next inlet]

regarding the --calibration-range launch argument
Am I correct in assuming that 0.3 is the default if the --calibration-range argument isn't passed?

• Added the --calibration-range="0.3" launch option. This determines the distance from predicted supported binding points that the calibration will search (in meters)

[random coyote]

0.three...

[next inlet]

:D

the literal next line says

• The default value is 0.3, corresponding to a 30cm radius sphere around possible binding points
  my bad

D:

[real bane]

so far so good 11pt tracking with my avatar

[hollow sigil]

Infinite point tracking B)

[grand ether]

I’m currently working so I can’t check my self but does full body calibrations save even when u quit and reopen the game? I think that should be a feature because every time my game crashes I don’t switch avatar and when I load back in I have to stand up again to calibrate

???

For the beta

[oak pendant]

Good point on if it crashes, but yeah currently it saves for the session only

[grand ether]

Awhh

[slim bloom]

Quick question: what is IK2 Beta?

[grand ether]

I really hope that maybe one day the beta will suggest saving when quitting and not restarting steam vr or something actors them lines

Ik2 is an improved version off the full body tracking movement

[slim bloom]

Oh. I see.

[grand ether]

Currently

[slim bloom]

Sadly cannot use tho lol

[grand ether]

Like for example our elbows and knees don’t have trackers but vrchat has to assume it

[oak pendant]

Sippbox made a cool video about it: https://youtu.be/qUa1uIcOCmE

[real bane]

looks like chest track on titty good.

[grand ether]

And there improving and allowing to add more tracking and way more

[grand ether]

Yes

[oak pendant]

the elbow clip avoidance works for just headset and controller mode too, if you have that kind of VR

[slim bloom]

I mean I only have the quest. My laptop is way to underpowered to run VRChat alone let alone anything more than that.

Vrchat barely gets 5 fps on it lol

I want to get a PC capable of running it and FBT though.

[oak pendant]

Ah, yeah the beta is only on steam now, but the new IK will come to quest too (head and hands only changes at least will be usable)

[slim bloom]

I had some ideas in the #vrchat-general-1 channel. However they aren't very in depth as I don't know how to do code lol.

For Quest 2 Standalone FBT and Finger Tracking

[grand ether]

I feel like if this was added u should make it a toggle able feature to have calibrations either saved on 1 avatar only or have 1 calibration share all avatars and also have the choice to have calibrations saved after a restart.

Finger tracking does seem like a sweet idea for a tracking idea and the quest is super good at tracking the fingers and it’s only going to get better so trying to mimic that in vrchat would seem amazing. Being able to spread and open ur fingers and seeing it within the vrchat world

[hollow sigil]

All I hear is a pain for gesture compatibility

[slim bloom]

The idea I had for implementing it without means to modify the games source code is to write a separate app as a compatibility layer which enabled support for things like Finger Tracking and Full Body Tracking. The FBT will have to be ran from an external device though as I am sure the quest cannot track everything in its own (too much processing power for it to handle)

The app will then have a button which launches VRChat with the compatibility layer enabled. The only thing I imagine is that in order to implement something like that, I am sure drivers will have to be either hosted or implemented which will be an issue for the quest since you cannot unlock the bootloader and root it. If there is a way around that then that would be cool.

At that point it seems logical to write the Finger tracking and FBT into the game itself instead of doing it a longer way just to find out it doesn't work.

[vital inlet]

yall liking the new ik beta update?

not gonna get to try it, but it seems a lot like what ppl were asking for

especially excited for the chest tracking myself

[devout current]

Kung, any plans on how soon you would be able to merge the IK beta with the Avatar Dynamics Update once it comes out?

[maiden rock]

Regression test all the things!

[oak pendant]

I'll be doing my best to merge it quickly, but there will probably be a little gap where you'll need to be without IK2.0

noice

[devout current]

Good to know ^^

So many big updates at the same time, I'm going to get crazy

[harsh sierra]

Dynamics rolling out is going to be chaos anyway

[vital inlet]

i cant wait

[random coyote]

You mean IK2 won't be network compatible anymore when the AD update releases?

[oak pendant]

Yeah, ik beta is compatible with the current live version, but when the avatar dynamics update comes out ik beta will also need an update to be compatible with that

[random coyote]

Okies

[vital inlet]

😭 i dont wanna go back to ik1

[oak pendant]

I'll do my best to get it over quickly. A lot will depend on if/how many updates the avatar dynamics release candidate needs, and how much lead time I have knowing which version I can start the merge against

And then if the final timing of that happens to be when I'm asleep

But my goal will be to minimize that gap time if I can

[maiden rock]

It's understandable

Suspect the focus will be on squashing any immediate bugs after a release, people just need to make a quick note of their old settings and revert

[grand lynx]

Thank you Kung, its going to be hard to give up my 10 point

its been amazing for dancing and immersion in general

[carmine bane]

Hey could there be a way for the calibration to save accross sessions? For example if the game crashes and i open it again with the same trackers in the same position, could it automatically calibrate to how the trackers were calibrated last session so i dont have to get up and calibrate to the same position manually?

[oak pendant]

Currently it doesn't save past the session. This might be possible in theory at some point, but there currently isn't a plan. It's a good point that it would make crashing less inconvenient.

Putting a tracker near your foot but above the ankle would do that now I think

Without separate knee tracking the knee position is based on the foot orientation, so if you're not really using foot rotations the rotation feeding in should result in a pretty good placement for the knee

Or I mean if you're not tracking the swiveling of the ankle (that's the thing that usually makes non tracked knee prediction a bit hard) tracking by attaching just above the ankle would prevent that confounding factor

Yeah, I know that popular constraint setups for that use the humanoid foot as the "toe" on digitigrade legs, and toes wouldn't have full ankle swivel mobility

putting the tracker just above ankle would make sense I think

[grand ether]

If I go in the full body beta rn will I be able to see other players in the none ik tweaks beta?

Uhm 😅

U keep deleting ur messages lol it’s okay

[wheat relic]

Shhh I'm not here

[grand ether]

Okie okie

[oak pendant]

ik beta is compatible with the non-beta version of VRChat

[grand ether]

Mmmm Omg I didn’t know that till now

[wheat relic]

If you're asking if the IK beta is compatible with the other Open beta, then no

[grand ether]

I’m aware it won’t work with the other beta I just mean the current main live version of vrchat

When I get home the first thing I’m doing is going into ik beta

And then when the update comes out for the physic bones I’ll be sad cos Ik beta won’t be compatible with the main version of vrchat current lol

[timber grove]

Woah this Ik beta update is insane

[grand ether]

Hehehe

It is crazy

It took 4 years

Me waiting

[wheat relic]

Can't wait for it to eventually hit live servers

[grand ether]

Yes yesss

Hehe. Ima go to the ik beta and go to a public world and sadly I only have 6 point tracking but I really want to just go to a world and move me elbows like a chicken and I want people to look at me and be confused as to how I’m doing that so I can explain to them the update lol

So many people are unaware of these updates coming and it’s actually sad

Cos I always keep up to date with every single update for years now

[wheat relic]

You could always move your feet trackers to your elbows with this update :^)

[grand ether]

Yes that’s what I’m going to do

Ima flap my elbows like a chicken for hours

[tawdry nymph]

It lets you do this:

[grand ether]

Wooooww

Lolll

It bends so much

[harsh sierra]

Nice

[tawdry nymph]

currently neck isolation isn't possible though

[wheat relic]

I love and hate that I'm gonna have to eventually buy 5 more trackers

[harsh sierra]

Yeah Towneh was going over it

It's cool

[grand ether]

I never imagined wanting to buy more trackers lol

[harsh sierra]

Not as cool as elbows tho

[grand ether]

Elbows and shoulders is one off my fav parts off this update

[wheat relic]

It is cool nonetheless

[grand ether]

And the view point drift thingy

[vital inlet]

MONSTER

[grand ether]

😂

[tawdry nymph]

IMO (elbow-)tracking shoulders and proper shoulder bones on the avatar benefit everyone, but positional chest tracker (through lock-all) would benefit dancers most

[serene ermine]

Does that avatar have an upper chest bone? Like in unity humanoid configuration, did you add an upper chest? My theory is avatars with upper chest bone will work better with chest tracking.

Vrchat DOES support upper chest bones contrary to popular beleif, it's only supported on sdk3 avatars I think tho.

[tawdry nymph]

I did add an upper chest bone to my avatar, and it does rotate slightly in the bone checker world

[serene ermine]

Thanks, that's interesting. I would expect that to be used more.

[errant cypress]

Won't be able to test for a bit but with the new update curious about just tracking the upper body. So chest and elbow tracking with the headset and controllers.

[serene ermine]

Elbow tracking requires additional trackers but according to the patch notes it SHOULD be possible to just track upper body.

[errant cypress]

I got 3 trackers for the old full body so should be fine. Feel for casual hanging out with people that just upper body tracking would be better.

How well it is though will have to wait to see and try it out.

[tawdry nymph]

@errant cypress

[errant cypress]

Lol I can't decide if the jank makes it better or worse.

[tame pewter]

crab

[tawdry nymph]

let me try av3 locomotion tracking lock behaviour

locomotion lock toggle makes it very decent imo

(chest and elbows only, no hip)

[devout current]

how much Hairspray did you use to make it so static? xD

[regal oasis]

i love the new update's changes, but i'm not sure about starting in normal 3pt tracking instead of t-pose.
if i have trackers turned on, i think it's safe to assume that i will want to use them. making me manually click "calibrate" is a bit annoying.
in a very rare case when i have trackers turned on but don't wanna use them (like when the tundras just turn on while charging, argh), i can always just unplug the dongle or turn off fbt in vrc.
you know, it's the difference between an additional action for 99% of cases vs an additional action for 1% of cases.
t-posing was a great way to remind you that you still have to callibrate. i feel like sometimes i will just forget now because i will see my hands moving normally and i will forget to look down.

[midnight turtle]

^^ having this and the calibration lock be optional would be nice

[random coyote]

This reminds me of the Boston Dynamics dog thing the way the feet keep tapping away

[tame pewter]

ferrets used to do tiptaps like that

[lethal bridge]

interesting theory

[mortal lagoon]

Not starting in t-pose does feel odd, but I'm completely fine with it. At worst it's two button presses extra you do once after starting up VRchat

[dusk anvil]

holy shit ik beta update

[robust tangle]

In exchange for never needing to calibrate again even after changing into avatars that have never been calibrated before I’d say it’s worth

The only problem I have is it seems to default into standing mode every time for me when I don’t have full body

Be in sitting mode, change Avatars, now I’m in standing mode again

[dusk anvil]

you are going to the standing dimension

[robust tangle]

I should check if anyone’s bug report that

You go in standing mode but the button continues to say you’re in sitting mode so you have to hit it twice to fix it

[oak pendant]

I think it's this issue: https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/11748-seated-mode-does-not-remember-height-when-switching-avatars and yeah looks like a bug that crept in

I have an idea what's causing it and should be able to address

[cinder oracle]

The IK update is an amazing update that vrchat needs it seems that its getting better with every update. does chest tracking work with all other forms of tracking

adn can you use it to with just a hip tracker as i belive you can just use a hip tracker for 4pt tracking

[prisma meadow]

wdym?

[cinder oracle]

what do you need to use a chest tracker?

apart from a vive tracker ofcourse

[woven gulch]

I mean, I’d rather look normal first run to a mirror and calibrate once

Instead of t-pose to a mirror and recalibrate every time I change avatars

[oak pendant]

basically that's it actually

[prisma meadow]

im picking up a gopro chest mount to hopefully secure it well

[cinder oracle]

ah thank you. very good update thanks for making vrchat better

[oak pendant]

if you wear a single tracker it would work even, but proximity detection would likely put a single tracker as hip unless you wear it very high

[cinder oracle]

aha thats what i was wondering

[oak pendant]

also wouldn't recommend single for chest even though you can, would be better suited to controlling hip, but in theory, to answer your question, even with one tracker you could use chest

But yeah for example if you had 6point (feet and hip) and wanted to go to 7pt adding chest, it would work fine

[cinder oracle]

alright well thank you for your answer was just wondering the extent and if it was similar to how the hip works

is there a fixed date for when the beta comes out?

[oak pendant]

no fixed date, but it won't be before Avatar Dynamics releases

[cinder oracle]

alright im exited for this update and was wondering to when the date is

[prisma meadow]

doesnt really matter too much because its live compatible

[oak pendant]

The plan is test just ik2.0, then Avatar Dynamics comes out, and then test IK2.0 + Avatar Dynamics, then IK2.0 comes out

Ah yeah, I should have mentioned, you can use it now as if it's released because you connect to the same instances as people on non-beta

[cinder oracle]

alright souds like vrchat will be amazing once that all is released

[cinder oracle]

the dynamic beta isnt though?

[oak pendant]

Yeah Avatar Dynamics is in it's own little universe right now and* doesn't connect to non-beta

[rustic berry]

duuuuude this update is wild

[topaz spade]

Does it mean dynamics are not gonna release soon?

Cause IK2.0 bug

[rustic berry]

❤️

[prisma meadow]

chest gang time

[rustic berry]

yeeee

[prisma meadow]

im just sad my chest tracker wont arrive until monday

[oak pendant]

Avatar Dynamics will release before IK2.0, so any IK2.0 bugs wouldn't hold up AD

[topaz spade]

Oh great to hear. I can't wait to push it to live

[prisma meadow]

how fast can we expect 2.0 to be updated back to live compatible once ad drops?

[oak pendant]

Yeah I'm thinking Avatar Dynamics going live will be a bigger deal, because up until now it's been separated off

[oak pendant]

Expect a small gap, I'll do my best to get IK2.0 merged ASAP but timing of various things may make the gap longer or shorter

[lethal bridge]

praise Kung 🙏

[devout current]

hopefully it will actually come out today :p

[prisma meadow]

alright

[gleaming igloo]

I hope not! I'm trying to release an avatar when AD drops and I still need to make a preview vid

tomorrow would be nice though!

[lethal bridge]

chest tracking with full lock on is super fun 😮

[devout current]

no no, today please

I have waited over a month for this

technically for over a year

xD

[tame pewter]

i want to test ik beta when i get home

[oak pendant]

Glad you like it. I saw this from a community member on twitter too. Does a way better job demonstrating than I would be able to: https://twitter.com/solart_E554/status/1517144734627950598

そらーと🍿 (@solart_E554)

1⃣1⃣🐯👑

▶ Play video

Twitter · Apr 21, 2022, 2:14 PM

[lethal bridge]

I could do body rolls it was so nice

[oak pendant]

Awesome, glad it's working!

[final raven]

There's a high probability it'll be today evening PST. 👀
Thursdays are their weekday cutoff points for big update drops anyway and they usually push to live in the same week of RCs.

[lethal bridge]

question though: does adding a upper chest bone negatively or positively affect the chest tracking?

[oak pendant]

That's a good question, it depends on what you want from the chest tracking. Having upper chest will have a longer length of IK controlled armature between the tracked points. Which will give more range to smooth out odd crunching. But that also means slightly less direct control near the collarbone.

Both have pros and cons

(that's with lock all mode for positional tracking)

if you're going lock hip or lock head, I think with upper chest is better in all cases probably

[rustic berry]

kung have I said that you're the best yet

[lethal bridge]

time to experiment 🙏

[oak pendant]

check it in this world to really see what the bones do https://vrchat.com/home/world/wrld_01025423-c339-4735-8af9-ba45cc9e46f2

[lethal bridge]

Yep been there testing already

[restive cloak]

Question: Will the general guidelines on what the "Optimal" armeture setup change like in terms of bone alignment and positioning? I know IK 2 is more flexible, but are there more optimal alignments like in IK 1?

[prisma meadow]

id love an optimal rig setup that I could use

[restive cloak]

Also shout out you Kung, you have done so much these last few months

[vital inlet]

Yeah big love to Kung!

[oak pendant]

It might a bit, currently it's advisable to have less sharp angles in your spine, it doesn't need to be 100% straight but but straight-ish is advisable. That might change before release, but adjustments there are still medium-low priority

And thanks! You're all so kind. Being in direct community contact as a dev comes with the risk of positive and negative vibes coming in.

I gotta say, even when things are buggy this community has been very kind to me ❤️

[rustic berry]

I mean, you've basically taken it upon yourself to singlehandedly add a ton of features that have been long requested for FBT

I'm sure that all of us are really thankful for that

[robust tangle]

Elbows only: Works fine
Hip only: Works fine
Elbows and Hip only (Or Elbows and Chest only): Weird roll issues on upper leg IK

Also is the avatar meant to reload now for a moment during calibration?

About 25% of the time I bind into elbows only, one of the elbows binds to hip instead. Recalibrating until it works is fine though

[lethal bridge]

also noticed this

[oak pendant]

I'd like to see the upper leg thing in video if possible

[robust tangle]

Sure thing I’ll canny it

[oak pendant]

Yeah the reload now is intentional

[mint abyss]

oh yeah, uhh does this title explain itself? https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/toes-wiggle-aggressively-while-walking-in-fbt-with-force-locomotion-animations-f

is the that option in the SDK outdated or being reworked?

[oak pendant]

That's an issue with the default animation set actually more than the IK system. I did do an update to the default standing anim set to branch based on FBT status so the toe doesn't bend when standing crouch, but I didn't redo all the walking cycles (yet)

There are a few things that could/should be improved about the default base layer animation set, but that's kind of tangentially related to the IK system, so I might get back in to fixing that up, or maybe another team member might

[trim fox]

isn't Xiexe the one that wanted to do it?

as i remember Xiexe mentioned it

[robust tangle]

Is a different IK loaded for avatars that don’t have an upper chest?

Just wondering if that’s a variable worth exploring

[oak pendant]

I actually probably shouldn't comment directly on which other team members did/do what thing. That's up to them if they wanna risk the good or bad vibes, I chose to risk it for myself which is why I'm again thankful that it turned out you all sent many good vibes 😁

[trim fox]

oh ok no worries i understand

u did good job don't worry

hope you have some help

[oak pendant]

For the spine in particular, the handling is individually tuned for with and without upperchest. But other elements will behave the same between the two, for example legs or shoulders or arms etc

[mint abyss]

VRChat Team is quite small, and the VRChat playerbase is massive in proportion. I'm surprised here you can talk to a dev to help them or point out a bug this casually.

[robust tangle]

Canny is still better :D

[mint abyss]

So I use both ^^

I haven't heard anyone talk about this but objectsync for worlds breaks when the owner of the world updates the world.
If the owner of an instance is in an old version and new users join, they'll load up the new version, and objectsync will break horribly.
Its an issue so niche I'm unsure if it would be even worth the hassle fixing.

[oak pendant]

Maybe it's a credit to you all as well. Some software companies may have pretty toxic communities and eventually communications get more and more closed off. But decisions about how open communications are for us overall are not mine to make. I'm glad it's alright for me to communicate with you all so much as well.

[oak pendant]

Yeah both can be good especially if one of us is here for direct back and forth about the issue, but days later, if it's not on canny it will be lost with all those moments in time, like tears, in rain 🌧️

[mint abyss]

I'll put it on the canny in the appropriate channel ^^

[oak pendant]

That's a Blade Runner reference just in case people thought I got suddenly depressed 😆

[dusk anvil]

lul

[high nest]

Kung please share some of the good vibes with the QA team that had to deal with the combinatoric explosion of tracking combinations you've added with this release 😄

(or that will need to deal with it in the future)

[rustic berry]

with the new feature to ignore trackers that are further away, it's now time to implement drink/chair tracking kek

[prisma meadow]

osc tracked object when?

[rustic berry]

^^

pretty sure someone was working on that

[prisma meadow]

it will be amazing for music players. they could overlay a 3d model of their instrument over the actual thing

[oak pendant]

So far I've been avoiding bogging them down from their work on AD actually, but yeah it's true that more combinations means more questions about what's happening for QA, sorry QA! 🙏

One thing to note actually, even though VRC will ignore far away trackers, it still only supports a max of 8 tracker pucks in SteamVR ( + 1 HMD and 2 hand controllers)

which means if you want 11pt AND your turntable or cat tracker or something, that cat tracker might push out one of your 11 points of tracking

If that's a hinderance to people we can look at adding support to populate more connected trackers so that if some end up being unused they don't push out the ones you want

[maiden rock]

Honestly the communication has gotten better with the new hires in the last 2 years

[lethal bridge]

that would be great actually

[maiden rock]

And that's a credit to the change in mindset that shows it's not always beneficial to remain tight lipped about everything

[lethal bridge]

with custom hand tracking solutions that require additional trackers to give position, it's sometimes a pain to start the game with the wrong order of trackers turned on

[rustic berry]

^^^ good point

didn't even think about that

like the LucidVR gloves

[lethal bridge]

exactly this. Been using this daily with 10 point tracking (now 11)

have to be very careful that I don't turn on my gloves trackers before I turn on everything else

[rustic berry]

yea, already have 10 trackers on hand, so I have some to spare lol

[prisma meadow]

kinda wish i didnt sell all my 2.0s now lol

[rustic berry]

xD

using tundras now?

[prisma meadow]

3.0s

[rustic berry]

gotcha

well 3.0's are a lot better than 2.0's, so you can just buy more 3.0's kek

[azure zinc]

first set of tundra's don't come till may unless u got them early

[rustic berry]

I was backer #42

I got them very early lol

[azure zinc]

how u liking them?

[rustic berry]

love them

but I do recommend having 3 base stations

[maiden rock]

Great for everything except the hips

[rustic berry]

they are tiny and weigh literally nothing

and outlast my index controllers in battery life

tracking quality is near perfect

[maiden rock]

I recommend holding on to a 3.0 for hip tracking

[lethal bridge]

in turn on when you plug them into charge 🙃

[rustic berry]

their size does mean they can be more easily occluded though

[rustic berry]

I just told steamvr to not start when controllers are turned on

[azure zinc]

whats wrong with it, just them getting occluded?

[rustic berry]

yep

[maiden rock]

Yeah

[rustic berry]

but I use a 2.0 + power bank for my hip

I use my 7th tundra for chest tracking in neos, and will be doing so in vrc now aswell

[maiden rock]

Hip causes you to fly off so it's more disasterous

[azure zinc]

so with my 2.0s i don't have any issues at all tracking (big open room)

so i don't seen anything changes with tundras

[carmine gate]

about this, might be time for an option to highlight which bone each tracker is about to bind to if in range. with a line going from the tracker to the bone.

[azure zinc]

is the chest worth it?

[carmine gate]

I definitely had stuff like that happen a few times

[rustic berry]

I haven't tried it in VRC yet, but it looks really promising

[maiden rock]

Once they figure out multiple trackers for a single bone, so a tundra either side of the hips...

[rustic berry]

if you have money to burn, go for it. but you should definitely go elbows > knees > chest if you're getting more than 3 trackers

[prisma meadow]

definitely

[azure zinc]

where do u place ur tracker? side or center of hip?

[rustic berry]

side

[maiden rock]

Right side on the hip bone

[rustic berry]

best spot imo

[maiden rock]

Less flesh less wobble

[carmine gate]

My main issue with a line system like the one I described, is that some people would wrongly assume they need to adjust their avatar or tracking until the line is as short as possible, and would think their calibration is "wrong" otherwise.

Maybe if the spheres had little icons above them telling you what they're about to bind to instead of lines

and the icon goes away when out of range

[rustic berry]

or make the spheres turn green

make spheres that are too far away red

[carmine gate]

still doesnt fix knowing what theyre going to bind to

Speaking of, the spheres should totally have an outline when behind objects, it's easy to lose them in large avatars, and you don't even know if your trackers are properly working

[maiden rock]

I kinda love the neosvr way of doing things, where you can walk around your avatar and adjust the tracker position to fine tune it

Or others can as well for you

[subtle arrow]

If you're up to doing some programming you can make a steamVR overlay that is a tracker driver and calculates it based on two other trackers.

[rustic berry]

I much prefer the VRC way honestly, much less hassle

it's a good balance between very fine control and ease of use

[maiden rock]

But once you've dialed it in, it's never going to change

[rustic berry]

but it assumes your trackers are always in the exact same spot

[carmine gate]

^ makes neos fbt a pain

[maiden rock]

Pretty much

[carmine gate]

especially since thats per avatar

[maiden rock]

Right now the floating body based on where you're looking is ridiculously inaccurate

[carmine gate]

not helped by the NEOS FBIK being uhmmmm, interesting. especially with the scaling

[azure zinc]

yeah... scaling is wack

[maiden rock]

Long may legacy calibration launch option live

[azure zinc]

learned first hand yesterday that i don't really like the neos way of setting stuff up

[maiden rock]

That's why you just get someone else to do it for you

[azure zinc]

😆

[maiden rock]

But it has it merits, for instance, there's something similar for Liv where I can manually adjust the placement on my avatar that I can walk around, after doing a vrc style initial calibration

If the avatar doesn't completely match your body properly you just move the trackers instead

Some of my best mocap-like movements has been in Liv, better than any other platform, just a shame it's IK was a bit awful

Still, high praise for what is essentially a virtual camera app

I guess that sounds like I should make a canny 👀

[final raven]

Pump out all the cannies!

[carmine gate]

Really wondering if these roles will ever be respected besides held in hand

[icy ferry]

i was expecting to have issues with the calibration saving in the beta but it's actually really smooth. i think my only complaint is that i don't like that when you first open the game, you have to go and hit calibrate instead of already being ready to calibrate. but that's not really a big deal.

[carmine gate]

what if

when you start the game, if you click both triggers before opening the menu

it puts you into calibration

[mint abyss]

Yes, giving developers an organized avenue to debug their game is the best respect we can give them!

[icy ferry]

i just don't particularly understand why you would want to start up in 3pt tracking when you have your trackers on and connected in the first place. if you have your trackers on, chances are that you want to use them. i can't imagine more people having their trackers on and not wanting to use them upon startup. and we already had the option that if you don't want to use them, then you can hit the button to disable fbt.

[mint abyss]

usually when you're actually charging trackers in between

sometimes vrchat needs a restart while your trackers are charging

[icy ferry]

yeah, but once again, it's been an option in the beta to just disable fbt.

and that seems less common for people to need to do rather than calibrate upon startup.

if there's something that i'm missing or not understanding, then i'd be glad to hear. i'm just confused about the necessity of not just starting in calibration.

overall though it's very minor so i'm not super pressed about it. it just seems like an odd decision.

[maiden rock]

I can see the use case of someone still using legacy calibration mode, which requires you to bind in before you can move, and you need to reach a mirror to help you during full calibration

[icy ferry]

hasn't the plan been to remove legacy calibration at some point though

[maiden rock]

Eventually yeah, it's not a great use case granted :D

[icy ferry]

i'm not sure if that was said or not, but i do know that it's not recommended to use in the first place

yeah that's fair lmao

[tranquil cipher]

legacy IK yeah, idk about legacy calibration

[icy ferry]

it's been said repeatedly to not use legacy calibration

[grand ether]

the new ik is great

[icy ferry]

it's not actively supported

[grand ether]

but the neck

the neck dont move at all

its so stiff

[tranquil cipher]

yes, for most people it's easier to use the new calibration but there are still people who prefer legacy

[maiden rock]

It's more useful if you bind to hips

[tranquil cipher]

that depends on the lock mode that you're using. Try lock all. The others will keep the spine straight

[carmine gate]

that one guy who uses only legacy ik and only legacy calibration, has their home world set as a reupload of the old vrchat home and constantly complains about how vrchat used to be better.

[maiden rock]

I used to calibrate from legs/hips upwards

[icy ferry]

yeah i've had to lock back and forth a few times to see what i like more for different things

[maiden rock]

For dancing

[grand ether]

yeah, I prefer lock head only but atleast I think there should be a bit off neck bend when u sit or something or bend ur body forwards. @tranquil cipher

the lock head and lock hip bends the neck but idk I just dont seem to like locked both on my avatars is makes the body bend in such an unnatural way

[maiden rock]

I need to try and tackle the whole mess of getting lock both working without looking like Quasimodo

[grand ether]

haha

lol

[icy ferry]

yeah lock both is a bit of a mess

[lethal bridge]

More like a necessary mess

It should be a bit better with an upper chest bone in your spine chain though

[icy ferry]

oh no it can be necessary and still have problems. not everything is perfect for every situation and i'm capable of understanding that.

it doesn't work for my needs personally and that's completely fine

[final raven]

Honestly prefer how it's handled now tbh. Still having use of my avatar hands on start up and not being in t-pose until I'm ready to calibrate is nicer imo.

[icy ferry]

i can see it being a thing that some people like, but personally i'm not a fan. just feels like another step i have to do before i can play. it's not a big deal at all, just felt odd to me.

it's nice to know that other people like it though. i was curious about what made it appealing so that's good to hear.

[lethal bridge]

What I mean is a lot of the jank you'll see if due to your body and the avatar body spine lengths being mismatched. You can't lock two points of one bone chain to another, differently proportioned bone chain without compromising how it bends

Add a chest tracker and it can really get funky

[maiden rock]

I need to double check I'm not still using two spine bones

[icy ferry]

yeah i'm aware of that. but yeah the chest tracker addition i would imagine can make some real weird stuff happen.

i only have 3 trackers so i have yet to test any additional trackers. not really in a position to buy more at this moment to play around more with the ik lmao

[round vale]

Once the physbones goes to the live version of the game will the new ik 2.0 beta remain network compatible with live?

[devout current]

Nope, the IK beta has to be updated by Kung to work with live again

Which he will try to do as fast as he can

[final raven]

Another video of odd shoulder behaviour.
https://streamable.com/tjjes6

[rustic berry]

have you tried clearing bone rolls on your avatar?

[mighty helm]

is that one of the yeens?

[rustic berry]

after doing that in blender, you need to use Reset pose in the rig config, then fix the pose in the scene with Pumkin's

[final raven]

I haven't touched the armature at all on this base.

[final raven]

Correct.

[final raven]

Also to clarify, Kung most likely knows whats up, I just wanted to make another video, show off this pose for example.

[hollow sigil]

Since I've been saying it in Open beta I think I could try to create a version here lol

Kung IK2.0 Open beta moment when?!

[drifting steeple]

meeeh the viewpoint drift is more important than the previous version

[obsidian ice]

This would be a huge change that I would love to see, cause they have all these weird work around currently to mess with avatar scaling and stuff for avatars that have legs/ torsos/ arms that are too long or short but being able to just reposition the trackers virtually where they move proportionally to the real ones like LIV does would be a godsend

[devout current]

just set it to lock head then

[drifting steeple]

i know but before it was better

and the shoulder have a strange thing

[silk magnet]

will the IK2 beta fast-forward changes from live once the physics bones beta is merged to live

[hollow sigil]

I think it will merge with the live version, yeah

Kung said so a while back if I recall correctly

(IF I recall correctly)

[silk magnet]

yeah not holding you to your word if you don't know for a fact

[gleaming igloo]

yes it's been stated that the ik beta will be kept live-compatible

[silk magnet]

ok cool

[final raven]

I wonder if avatar transitions where the saved calibration kicks in could be made faster. 🤔
https://streamable.com/z497io

[drifting steeple]

oh its me ? or the calibration is now memories when we change avatar!?

[rustic berry]

yea, calibration saving is a thing now

it's in the patch notes

[drifting steeple]

yeeee now they just have to fix the viewpoint drift in hips lock mode and the weird stuff with the shoulders like at my photo more up

[rustic berry]

what? that's how "lock hips" works

it allows the viewpoint to drift

if you don't want that, use Lock head or Lock all

if you get odd spine bending, then that's not as much of an IK issue as it is a rig issue, which you would have to fix

[frail ridge]

is it correct that when i calibrate and 'save/lock' the avatar gets reloaded

[devout current]

that's just how lock hips work as Sacred said, some parts of your body will always have to drift a bit

if you look you use lock hip the hip will always be the one part of your avatar which wont drift away from the tracked position

if you use lock head, your head will be that part

so in lock hip mode you will always have view point drifting

[regal oasis]

what do you mean you "save/lock" the avatar?

[frail ridge]

the moment you hold both triggers

to stop the calibration

it now refreshes the avatar

[final raven]

That's how 'lock hips' works though.

If you want the viewpoint to be accurate, use 'lock head' or 'lock all' mode.

[dusk anvil]

oh no other chat closed

[devout current]

oh no

[dusk anvil]

oh god oh fuck

[devout current]

so is it coming?

I'm confused by the last message

[kind goblet]

Same

[final raven]

oh my god

[kind goblet]

Does it mean it’s getting released??

[final raven]

It's literally going to drop now.

[copper trench]

[final raven]

Yes.

[lyric vault]

Where do i actually download the ik2.0 beta?

[kind goblet]

I’m at school damniy

[devout current]

https://tenor.com/view/weekend-party-champagne-gif-18280013

[kind goblet]

Why

I need to go home

[devout current]

aaaaaa I'm scared

I'm hugging my VRCat now to calm down

[trim fox]

well time to for me to remake all avatars for real now

[devout current]

aaaaaa

[hollow sigil]

I was happy I was the last message before Tupper

I did it :D

[grand lynx]

BAH didnt get to test 11 point tracking before dynamics

[tawdry nymph]

wait lol

[lucid junco]

im looking for the download as well. is it just the link on VRChat official website? file name 2022.04.21.03.29 Public hence I'd like to think it is open beta

[undone plinth]

Gib network compatible ik 2.0 update

[hollow sigil]

You'll get to test it WITH dynamics

much better

[grand lynx]

wait what

[devout current]

Kung, IK update like right now

pls

[grave grove]

I joined the beta and everything is the same as before 😭

[devout current]

I haven't even tested the new IK yet

[undone plinth]

Ik 2.0 branch isn't updated yet as far as I can tell

[flint bison]

MMMM does the IK beta work with physics?

okok

[undone plinth]

Give Kung a bit

Lmao

[empty solar]

is the physbones update gonna work with the IK beta?

[grand lynx]

we were told it wouldnt

[agile arrow]

Waiting for ik to get avatar dynamics now

[undone plinth]

They said IK 2.0 will track live early on.

I don't see why they wouldn't continue to track live.

[grand lynx]

Kung has said over and over that he has to merge the ik 2.0 branch with avatar dynamics

[undone plinth]

Yes

[grand lynx]

and there will be a period where we dont have both

[undone plinth]

WILL track

[devout current]

which will take a bit of time though

[undone plinth]

It's been 4 minutes

That's enough time to hit rebase and watch git cry

[agile arrow]

Clearly enough time to test and deploy

[empty solar]

i mean if the beta would work with live

[coral cairn]

I gotta rummage through my stuff and find that tracker I lost to try out chest tracking. It'll probably be merged by the time I find it

[prisma meadow]

I hope it can be merged before I have my workout in 5 hours

[grand lynx]

Did he say it would be merged that quick?

[undone plinth]

Clearly you can hit rebase, watch git cry, then open unity, wait 20 hours for the library cache to update, resolve merge conflicts, test, deploy in 5 minutes

[chilly juniper]

whos hitting the git blame

[oak pendant]

Working on it at the moment

[grand lynx]

I thought the merge would take days

maybe I misunderstood

[chilly juniper]

Appreciate it (:

[digital valley]

I'm not sure if we were talking about the avatar dynamics, but are they available on the beta? Or should I switch to live

[versed galleon]

https://tenor.com/view/gigachad-chad-gif-20773266

[limpid sandal]

kung ur a legend

[carmine gate]

Kung based chad

[devout current]

take your time ^^

Kung = Giga Chad

[oak pendant]

Yeah ik beta is not live compatible right at the moment, go enjoy some tasty legacy IK

[grand lynx]

Any rough eta?

[carmine gate]

Springy neck? I'd rather be alone in my own instance

[oak pendant]

I'll be thinking of all your twisted up spines while I work on this

[versed galleon]

ow, right in the badly aligned hip bone

[grand lynx]

Because my expectation was going to be that it was going to take at least a few days

[oak pendant]

can't give an eta, won't be sure how long it'll take until I'm done, but I'm working on it right now, so I'm gonna get off discord

[devout current]

why are you so mean? xD

[grand lynx]

Okay, thank you kung!

we do appreciate you

[versed galleon]

merges aren't fun. big merges like this gotta be a real pain

[prisma meadow]

hallelujah

[dapper pasture]

Will the IK 2 open beta be updated with the physbones update?

[patent root]

they're too busy staring at our twisted spines

[grand lynx]

Labe, hes working on the merge now

[dapper pasture]

oh good

[grand lynx]

we dont know how long it will take though

[acoustic snow]

Holy moly, banger update to the IK
Vrc team Killin it lately

[dapper pasture]

uhh imma post something in avatar help so brb

[robust tangle]

I got to enjoy elbow trackers for ONE DAY

[whole seal]

Anyone having a problem with the menu when playing on Desktop with the Ik beta?

[rapid goblet]

Same xD

[lethal light]

Ik-beta is no longer live compatible for the moment

[timber grove]

No more legacy IK!

[unreal bobcat]

i was just on the IK beta speaking to people on live tho

didnt have any phys bones tho

[timber grove]

kicks IK

[whole seal]

Yeah someone joined me

O.o

[loud hound]

aye question, tried downloading the new SDK off the website and it didnt seem to give me the proper download, anyone else experiencing this?

[rustic zodiac]

Does the update that dropped mean IK beta is no longer compatible with live?

[magic wigeon]

check on at #open-beta-announcements there was

[tame pewter]

^

[magic wigeon]

@loud hound

[hazy sleet]

[vocal sail]

same question

[lethal light]

please, take 2 seconds to read the chat

[vocal sail]

no u

[rustic zodiac]

Sad, was looking forward to testing my chest tracker with my friends

Guess not...

[warped rose]

It probably won't be too long until it's compatible with live

[silk magnet]

git rebase

[tame pewter]

If the beta is still listed in Steam, there shouldn’t be anything that stops you from doing that, as long as you both are on IK-2-Beta

[loud hound]

the weird thing is it says the update was today

[tame pewter]

i’m not home though so i don’t know if it is listed

[loud hound]

but the physbones don't show up

[rustic zodiac]

Luckily, I was legit in the middle of updating my avi for physbones

😄

[tame pewter]

sadly i missed this ik beta update before avatar dynamics released

[rustic zodiac]

OOF

[tame pewter]

i am the salt, but physbones still is exciting

[rustic zodiac]

I thought so too, till I broke all the weight painting and accidently yeeted my hip to the moon

[fluid gulch]

So since I obviously missed it, is this still compatible with live now that dynamics is out?

[rustic zodiac]

No

[fluid gulch]

Sadge

[rustic zodiac]

IK Beta is NOT live compatible

[fluid gulch]

Thanks

[rustic zodiac]

xDDD

Might just spend tonight working on my avi till I finish getting it fully ready

That way I get all the kinks out before the weekend

Then I can hopefully 🤞 test both IK Beta with physbones

[knotty spire]

it being work on to be combatable with the live and merge as we speak, eta unknown at this time

[fluid gulch]

I just have a meeting in 15 minutes so I assume it won't be by then lol

[dusk anvil]

eta is currently: 2...

years

[fluid gulch]

I love listing numbers like that but with no scale of reference

Yeah that will take three

[dusk anvil]

same

yo when's the merge

i think it's in uhh

4

[sharp geyser]

so is the new dynamics update compatible with the ik beta?

[dusk anvil]

not yet

[coral cairn]

not yet

[sharp geyser]

great

[coral cairn]

kung is working on it now, who knows how hard the merge will be, I doubt kung does

[undone plinth]

Ehhh you don't work on a branch like this in complete isolation

[mint abyss]

people have yet to explain why there's a branch of VRChat in steamdb just called "toes"

[undone plinth]

I'd assume there's probably a working branch where the two have been touching that's been merged a few times to scope out complexity

[coral cairn]

fair enough, but there's always the expected unexpected, and then the unexpected unexpected

[undone plinth]

Yep

[coral cairn]

I saw this and I am dying to know

[undone plinth]

It's not gonna be an ultra quick merge and we'll probably have some regressions

Especially if they skip any form of substantial internal beta beyond basic validation

[hallow raven]

will this take a few days, weeks or even months?

[timid perch]

wondering if anyone knows where I can do to download the new SDK for the new physbones?

go*

[fathom bobcat]

It's probably just on the normal avatar sdk download now

[timid perch]

would it just be on the vrchat website?

okay ty

[gusty ridge]

Is IK beta compatable with dynamic bone live ?

[trim fox]

not now

kung is working on it

[gusty ridge]

kk

thanks

[timber grove]

Yep. Kung will patch it in. The savior of us all.

He is literally god but in VR form.

[tiny token]

This patch is incredibly based

[timber grove]

lmao

[wet gorge]

Give kung your energy for the spirit bomb

https://tenor.com/view/2869993-hail-gif-12594371

[forest berry]

how can i join the beta?

[tiny token]

I’ll even go as far as gift Kung a month of vrc+

[forest berry]

a

nobody knows?

nuu

i have searched in the page but i cannot find it :c

its the sdk3?

i dont have the code

oh

[ebon rune]

If I use the Ik2.0 branch, is the avatar dynamics update integrated

[forest berry]

so this is?

i have another question

what if i already rigged the avatars with the another dynamics?

[rapid goblet]

no, Kung's working on it atm

[ebon rune]

Bless Kung

[forest berry]

or i just have to wait for the beta?

[silk magnet]

we must all wait

[forest berry]

oh so nobody have downloaded the new dynamics

[ebon rune]

Because I don't really want to my myself being spineless

[gleaming igloo]

you must be lost; the new dynamics is in the latest sdk

[ebon rune]

I keep updating my SDK but I have not opted in the open beta

[gleaming igloo]

it's in the live game now, no need for a beta

[vocal nebula]

What exactly is IK?

[forest berry]

so i have to export this to unity and that's all

[ebon rune]

Better full body

[vocal nebula]

Oh nice

[lucid junco]

IK means how the game calculate where your joints (elbow, knees etc.) is automatically, without knowing exactly where they are

[ebon rune]

You can take it that way

[vocal nebula]

Oh inverse kinematics?

[lethal bridge]

IK stands for inverse kinematics

[ionic heron]

inverse kinematics, i.e how the game handles bone movement

[ebon rune]

I wish vrchat has bone work level of ik

[forest berry]

thanks!

[vocal nebula]

Oh that’s gonna make the game feel much better when it releases

Plus the interaction

[lucid junco]

that's why the old IK make your elbow clip through your chest because the old IK does not know there was a chest, it just sends your elbow directly into your body; now that the new IK knows there's something it prevents, e.g. your elbow, from entering your body

[vocal nebula]

Like damn, immersion boutta be up to 100

[ebon rune]

Yes

You are no longer spineless

[vocal nebula]

Haha yeah

[lucid junco]

well entering your body sounds weird but you get the point lmao

[ebon rune]

Also, more trackers supported

Tho I only have 3

[vocal nebula]

This is gonna be so good, especially since I’m gonna be playing on quest until like next year when I have fbt and better gpu lol

[fathom bobcat]

The main thing I care about with this beta is just them fixing arms personally

[ebon rune]

I am saving up for next gen eye tracking vr devices

[fathom bobcat]

FBT just looks like it adds a painful amount of more setup and frustration to VR lol

[ebon rune]

I have been trying last month to make my eye tracking works but cannot

[vocal nebula]

Oh nice

I think cambria is gonna have eye tracking

So maybe wait for that or smthing

[hallow raven]

Does someone know, how long will it take, until IK is also Live or Ik get's also PhysBones support?

[placid gale]

It shouldn't take too long... right?

[forest berry]

also somebody creates avatars using vrm?

i want to put more expression but idk

[fathom bobcat]

No one here is gonna know when a merge will happen lol

[hallow raven]

I use VRM but I import them in blender and export them as .fbx

[forest berry]

ooh it botters you if i send you a message?

(sorry my eng its not the best bc i speak more spanish)

[spice rover]

so are we just waiting for avatars to be updated ? i went to a “quest physbones” avi world and the physics arent working yet (worked in the old beta tho so idk)

[split plinth]

the IK beta now just insta crashes on launch?

[cursive holly]

is it just me or did the live compatibility of the IK beta break when the physbones update to live dropped?

[honest apex]

Yes.

[sacred niche]

its cause its not on the same build anymore

[honest apex]

Give kung a bit of time to update it.

[sacred niche]

live is ahead of IK so we gotta wait for them to update it

[cursive holly]

ah ok

[hallow raven]

Maybe the VRCSDK that tupper linked today:
#open-beta-announcements message

[trim fox]

it's beta sdk

download sdk from website

[hallow raven]

did he deleted older OpenBeta SDK posts on the annoucment channel?

[hallow raven]

#open-beta-announcements message

[trim fox]

still use website version

here are only beta versions

[hallow raven]

But my Avatar with a SDK from 04/08/2022 does work fine with it's physbones in the Live Version of the game

[vital inlet]

Mine with 4/20/2022 also worked in Live.

[hallow raven]

so what's the problem? I mean the beta sdk does still work on the LiveVersion of the game...

[trim fox]

if you want use beta but it can be buggy

[humble citrus]

is the ik version still live compatible now that physbone released?

[trim fox]

it isn't

Kung is working to make it live compatible again

[hallow raven]

I only know the bug that I have to use a LiveSDK BLueprint ID and can't create a BLueprint in the beta myself. But it's not a problem, because I just took an example avatar and uploaded it and copied the ID from this blueprint and overwritten the LiveSDK avatar with my beta sdk avatar...

[cobalt storm]

Are Avatar Dynamics out on the ik beta as well?…

[prisma meadow]

no

[lethal bridge]

no. Kung is working on merging the two for the next IK beta update

[celest hearth]

how do I enable the new IK?

[lethal bridge]

#ik-2 message

IK beta update is not currently live compatible

[celest hearth]

hmm game wont start with that, which is why i asked

wait nvm

works now iguess

[elfin shuttle]

for me i had the ik beta on but..i cant join any of my friends or public worlds were i usually hang out...i better go wait with this untill its live

[carmine gate]

IK Beta will match live soon™️

a huge update was just pushed to live

and IK Beta needs to be updated to reflect those changes

[wary rampart]

Just set it to live and switch to IK beta when its updated.

[carmine gate]

until that happens, you won't see anyone else on IK Beta

[elfin shuttle]

i stay normal untill this hole thing goes live..i rather stay with no beta with friends then go beta and lose them :/

[carmine gate]

Considering half of my friends will be crying about their avatars being broken, and the other half will complain that the other half is too lazy to fix their shit. I think the temporary solitary confinement of the IK 2.0 beta branch is welcome.

[patent root]

you havent seen the people talking about the rex avatars tongues lol

[split plinth]

working on fixing that rn

will share results