ik-2

[rustic berry]

if you're going to be redoing spine weight painting, perhaps this addon, in addition with CATS Dev, will help. specifically, the Subdivide Weights button https://github.com/Mysteryem/AvatarBuilder

with CATS, you can combine bones and their weights together. with AvatarBuilder, you can subdivide them into however many bones you want, and control the weight falloff

[undone plinth]

This is a completely WIP model, test rig. Although it's nice to know someone got around to making an addon for bone subdivide with splitting weights.

[rustic berry]

yea it's super useful

since it's a WIP model, I'm gonna plug my own addon which might help if you're trying to optimize for texture memory https://github.com/sacred0/SubstanceMultiUVExport

allows you to export a model that is using multiple UV maps and paint on any one of them in substance

by duplicating the mesh for each UV map and assigning each one unique materials

an example use case would be if you're using stacked UVs for the main texture for things like hair, but still want to bake AO properly, which you could do using a 2nd UV map

[undone plinth]

Yeah. I'm aware of mult-uv workflows. Nice addon to make that more efficient (until substance cries as the project grows).

I'm not actually the person making this, but I'll send it their way in-case they find use.

They don't have FBT so we're trying to fit model and get everything feeling good before locking stuff in. I can handle blender, I can't character model for shit.

[rustic berry]

sounds good, let me know how the different proportions work out for you

I use 11pt tracking, and since ever the new update my tracking has never been better

[undone plinth]

Would be nice if Unity actually had a decent reference skeleton for mechanim that used every slot so it wasn't as much of a guessing game around what it wants.

[rustic berry]

it really depends on the IK system you use, which could be different for any Unity based game

[undone plinth]

That's fair

[rustic berry]

it should really be a VRChat reference rig

there's sort of one, but it's a little out of date

[undone plinth]

Yeah

[rustic berry]

guessing that's the one you and your friend used

[undone plinth]

Well there's the really old one hiding in SDK2 and then there's the robot in the official tutorial Kung made, but this started as a metarig I believe

[abstract forum]

For knee trackers (and elbows too I suppose), does the IK prefer them to be placed above or below the joint?

[rustic berry]

for elbows, always put them above the elbow so that you also get shoulder tracking. for knees, it just depends on what's most comfortable for you

I personally use above the knee, but a friend of mine uses under the knee. works fine

[abstract forum]

That's good to know, thank you

[undone plinth]

Tried proportions more like this based on your suggestion (the weights haven't been cleaned up much so they're pretty nasty, but even if I'd fixed the weights this issue isn't with them it's with the way the bones are bending, spine is straight) and I'm still getting some absurdly nasty scrunch (you can see it's rotating spine downwards and then rotating chest upwards to correct).

If I shut off the chest tracker (final image) the entire spine smooths out as it just compresses between the chest and spine. Any suggestions at this point or is it just going to be a game of fidgeting?

[rustic berry]

because the chest tracker always binds to the chest bone and not the upper chest, you might want to have it moved up a little bit more so that it doesn't crunch as much at the spine

have you also checked the proportions of the model? Kung's FBT fixes video covers proportioning things, but the idea is that you can use your controllers to help measure different points on your body and see where it lines up on the avatar

in this case, try putting one controller on your shoulder, and the other at the lowest point of your crotch to measure your torso length. compare that to the avatar, and see if the spine length needs to be changed

[undone plinth]

I'm using the EOZ chest strap which puts the tracker dead-center around where upper-chest is on the sample mapping in unity, so if it's binding strictly to the chest bone, the bones being a bit far back (so more travel distance) and the actual tracker being (relatively) high-up, that's probably not helping. I'll try lowering the tracker with a hip strap and putting it where the bone is as an experiment
I'll also check overall torso length. I know with more stylized stuff there's always gonna be a balance of making it work

[rustic berry]

could try something like this perhaps

just kinda shifting everything up

and yea moving the whole spine forwards a little bit may help

maybe

[raw wadi]

setup like this works

add an extra bone that have the spine weight in the butt that copy 50% of the spine.

https://i.gyazo.com/8c7f91b1aa751079704a134ab9ae1d6f.gif

kung did the same when I show them while back.

but if each bone of the upper body bend in armony, probably don't need to do this

[fiery plinth]

Is there a way to use a head tracker instead of hmd tracking, pretty much narrowed down my ik2 chest wiggle issue to having a quest 2 with virtual desktop with lighthouse trackers

Issue not there when using an index or legacy ik (but chest bone doesnt move or rotate anyways with legacy+q2)

[rustic berry]

do you already use a headset tracker and Continous calibration?

[fiery plinth]

yeah

a friend had me switch to lock head and use the tracker adjustment to move the hip ball down a few inches to keep the chest stiff, kinda works but not the best solution

[elfin relic]

With the jitter fix if your avatar is mid animation then its orientation doesn't change (for example with swimming prefabs, flying prefabs or just falling), is there a way to force an update through Udon because it can be quite easy to do a physical 180 and that doesn't look good for either the user or remote users?

[undone plinth]

This is a pretty good trick, thanks. Going to hold this one in the back pocket if needed.

At the root, it seems like the issue is that the torso is too long relative to my actual body, so when I add the chest tracker, there's really only so much that can be done.
Shrinking down the torso with bone scaling has eliminated the spine crunch, although my arms are proportionally too long now (which I can fix)

I'll probably just go back to the original version before I modified any bone positions and do a pass using kung's old guide for easily measuring proportions to get them closer. Combine that with the fact that I can see where the trackers are in real-space in calibration, I can pretty easily pull the proportions in line.

I don't see much of a workaround beyond making it more proportionally accurate if I want to use a chest tracker in lock-both mode.
In the end, if the proportions of the body are off and I'm injecting more tracking points (chest), the compensating systems like spine compression can only do so much

[lilac spear]

any way to solve the entire body lifting up when i just look down with my neck? all avatars do it to some extent. tracker boxes do not move at all

[devout current]

That's mostly due to the view point not being correctly positioned.

You can try to go through this thread to see what helps
https://x.com/Kung_VR/status/1619137610223607814?s=20

Kung (@Kung_VR)

@VRCSpooky Viewball is where you will be IRL relative to the avatar. Viewball far in front means avatar far behind. And reverse if the viewball is deep in the avatar's face. When you tilt your head (for example) down IRL things attached behind go up and things in front go down. (see image)

Twitter · Jan 28, 2023, 12:57 AM

[lilac spear]

tyvm. looks like what i need

[raw wadi]

often people put the view ball near the nose, but it should be more in the head

[narrow yew]

official recommendation for extra trackers on legs is to have them above the knee but a lot of people are recommending below knee because calves keep them in place much better. assuming you wear feet trackers on top of your feet and not ankles, is there any reason why trackers just below knees wouldn't work? seemed to work pretty well for me yesterday and i had to adjust them a lot less than when trying to wear above the knee

[rustic berry]

it shouldn't matter whether or not it's above or below the knee in terms of tracking

but having it above the knee makes the tracker less in the way

[agile cedar]

Could this potentially be why my avatars stand on their Tiptoes when I look down? (Desktop)

[gleaming lake]

probably

view ball should be just under the skin between the eyes from what ive heard

[agile cedar]

Ooh alrighty then thanks. I always ended up putting it just slightly in front of the eyes

[rustic berry]

you should have the viewpoint inside of the head, behind the eyes, almost directly above the neck. this will reduce the "spine shifting" when you look up or down

[agile cedar]

Awesome thanks, I'll keep that in mind from now on. The animations I use are kinda weird and hunched over, but in vrc the legs are always fully extended which leads to a really awkward stance. Is there a way to improve that too, or would that also come down to the view orb placement? The animations are supposed to have a bit of a bend in the knee.

[west bane]

It helps with the spine shifting, but I find it makes my avatars body feel too far forward.

On a side note, where is the tracking point on most headsets? Is it in the center of the main headset body? if so, does that mean smaller headsets like the bigscreen beyond have less of a lever effect when rotating your head?

[marsh elm]

the player 'camera' is positioned near the display/lenses on the q2 at least

[vestal ridge]

i feel like if any headset didn't do that it'd be sickening, lol

[marsh elm]

yep lol

imagine grabbing a [insert big headset] with the view on the very front of the casing and having it yank your view around further than your eyes are

[raw wadi]

can we get more aggressive tracking prediction. near the remote network ?

[short knot]

You can try it out with OVRIE, and yes, it is

[devout current]

tracking prediction is something SteamVR and not VRChat does, so idk how much they can change it

[lilac spear]

vrchat has a prediction slider- but ime its effects are very subtle

[devout current]

That slider just changes what data they get from SteamVR

100% = normal prediction
0% = no prediction / raw data only

[raw wadi]

make it as smooth as network ik

for tracker that shake alot

[devout current]

So you want actual smoothing instead of just less prediction?

[raw wadi]

Ye

[vestal ridge]

there's a tool for that already lol https://yuumu.booth.pm/items/4018006

[raw wadi]

I know

[vestal ridge]

why not use that then, lol

[elfin relic]

But doesn't it literally do the same as VRChat's solution?

This tool works by limiting steamVR’s movement prediction feature.
Since that is the biggest cause for jittering trackers

That is how VRChat is doing their "smoothing".

[polar bloom]

The tool smooths tracking locally if you’re doing stuff like streaming. VRChats smoothing is done over network I believe

[elfin relic]

VRChat added a separate thing that does smooth tracking locally using the same way as that tool does.

[rustic berry]

not exactly, the option is to essentially have control over how much prediction is done to help with fast movements. it used to be that it was basically always doing the maximum amount of prediction

now you can choose to not have any

it's still not quite the same as doing actual smoothing though

[devout current]

YES, it's not actual smoothing, just less prediction which results in it looking smoother as you wont have problems with it overshooting in the ground etc

that's also what OVR Smooth Tracking did btw, they also just lowered the prediction

[mild nimbus]

Glad I don’t need that any more

[stone solstice]

This may not be the right channel to ask this but has any one else run into this or similar issue -I use the Kat walk treadmill to “free walk” I currently connect to SteamVR to launch VRChat, I recently purchased the Leap Motion 2 for controller free hand tracking, as soon as I started using this my Kat Walk no longer works: If I shut down the Leap Motion software I am able to walk again !

[vale ibex]

hello im trying to narrow down whats causing this. i think this started happening with the ik update because i dont remember this ever happening before. ive tried multiple avatars and all of them have the same issue with different degrees. any idea?

[naive sandal]

If the knee is too near the hip, yes it will freak out

[devout current]

Yeah, the IK doesn't really know what to do in this case

that has afaik always been the case though

[turbid plaza]

Hi, I'm trying out fbt in vrchat (SteamVR) now, is there a way to turn off hips and only track my knees and feet? My SteamVR tracker settings are already properly set, but my right knee is controlling my avatar's hips in the game

my left knee, left foot, and right foot is tracking well

[narrow yew]

i guess reduce calibration range in vrchat's settings under tracking & ik to prevent your knee tracker binding to your hip

[devout current]

Why is your knee tracker closer to your hip than then actual hip tracker? 😅

[vestal ridge]

i think what they're asking is to have no hip tracker
just feet and knees

which, to my knowledge, you cannot do without having a hip tracker and powering it off after calibrating

which kinda defeats the purpose of not having one
so you essentially cannot do it

[empty root]

no you can

its just stupid, idk why youd do it

[vestal ridge]

i mean I've tried and it didn't work so

[empty root]

well ur just silly (and smelly)

[vestal ridge]

prove me wrong lol

[empty root]

i will tonight mybe if i remember

:3

[devout current]

You can, but it will look really stupid as that's not really what it was designed for

Since the spine rework you can combine trackers in what ever way you want to

[vestal ridge]

you for sure can't do upper body only
as that's what i was trying

a hip tracker is mandatory

a tracker far from the hip will be grabbed if there isn't one there

[devout current]

you can

[vestal ridge]

shooow me

[devout current]

just do it lol

[vestal ridge]

I fuckin'
did lmao

[devout current]

there is nothing special you need to do for that

I did that a while ago to try out shoulder tracking

[empty root]

boof if u remind me i can record some awesome videos of me doing it

:3c

[devout current]

I'm not home at the moment so I can't really show anything xD

[empty root]

i finish work in 5 hours soooo

[vestal ridge]

I tried to do chest and elbows only
and it wouldn't let me

[devout current]

when did you last try it?

[vestal ridge]

good point
I do not remember

[devout current]

Cause IIRC this is only possible since the spine rework from a few months ago

[vestal ridge]

also mr dr rat can u file a bug for me im too lazy to write a canny

[devout current]

lmao

[vestal ridge]

the haptics settings and presumably others are missing from the settings menu, only accessible through search

[devout current]

[vestal ridge]

pls and ty

[devout current]

that would be new to me

[vestal ridge]

a friend and i couldn't find em, lol

[devout current]

They are in the accesibility settings menu for what ever reason

[vestal ridge]

oh no they're there

my bad

can u file a different canny for a more minor bug instead

there's a double line break line at the end of the "common" tab in graphics

and a couple single line break lines in some other settings

pls and ty

[devout current]

I probably already made a canny about that at some point

[vestal ridge]

lol

[devout current]

I went through the entire menu a month ago and made a canny about every small little Issue I could find

[lilac spear]

you definitely can. i’ve used owotrack for waist-only for months

(which is still a huge improvement over regular 3 point)

[raw wadi]

I assumed they scale the spine bone but the actually translate the chest up and down in lock both ?

[raw wadi]

@oak pendant correct me if am wrong

[devout current]

I'm not Kung but afaik in lock both the distance between the chest and spine bone changes, without any scaling

[oak pendant]

You're correct the distance between the spine and chest is what changes, but the bone transforms themselves are never scaled.

[wet gorge]

Got any tips when making a rig to not make your spine shrink?

With lock both that is.

[raw wadi]

like mention above, it's the chest that shift down

[wet gorge]

That's not what I asked.

I know how it works, I want to know how to make a model not do it so much.

[raw wadi]

I did a lot of testing long time ago to understand of thing move/ rotate in fbt before that feature so I don't really know for sure

[raw wadi]

something about bone ratio

[dusk mango]

it doesnt let me change my beta to ik how do i do it ?

[raw wadi]

there is no ik beta

[dusk mango]

Oh I guess it’s over then

[devout current]

I has been over for a while 😅

[sharp ore]

How do I change the custom arm ratio setting in desktop mode? I would like to make it an accurate value rather than struggling because my hands shake with VR controllers

If I need to, I'd be willing to change the Registry Editor setting for that if there is one

[oak pendant]

(Obligatory dsclaimers: edit the registry at your own risk, also this is very much not the intended way to alter settings so again, perform this at your own risk) So in Computer\HKEY_CURRENT_USER\SOFTWARE\VRChat\VRChat you'll find the key VRC_IK_HEIGHT_RATIO the value here is stored as a double type using big endian. I've found a converter here you can use to input the value you want: https://gregstoll.com/~gregstoll/floattohex/ you'll need to checkbox "Swap to use big-endian" or the format will be incorrect. Then type the value you want into "Double value:" and click Convert to hex. You can then enter the resulting 8 hex bytes that follow after the 0x into VRC_IK_HEIGHT_RATIO in the registry.

[lilac spear]

what’s the use case though? that setting only matters in vr aiui

oh, never mind. accessibility issue

yeah the sliders are crap

[oak pendant]

I think the request was to alter it to an extremely fine tuned value due to not being able to get the slider just right, yeah

[lilac spear]

you can also use height based scaling, that’s just pressing a button

[oak pendant]

Yeah if that solves their issue that could work, but they may be using it to precisely fine tune the relationship between avatar scale and IRL scale to something other than matching height exactly.

Sometimes people might want to do that if the avatar has high heels or similar angled feet where the ankle is high, but IRL you stand with feet flat so your ankle would be lower than the avatar's making a pivot mismatch

other reasons might be wanting to tune the tightness of the arms to a certain fit

[lilac spear]

aiui, the arm span or height just scales the avatar. it doesn’t fix bad rigging or avatar proportion issues

not much you can do to fix high heels/digi legs apart from wearing them IRL

[sharp ore]

So, with that value, would it just be the number I want the setting to be at?

[oak pendant]

Yeah in the end it can only alter the relationship of how the avatar is scaled to fit their IRL body. But if your ankle matches at least there wouldn't be pivot mismatch

[oak pendant]

Ah, sorry I should have been specific. The default value of 45.37% would be represented as 0.4537 in this example

so if you wanted to slightly adjust it to 0.01% less than the default you'd enter 0.4536 in the "Double value" field on that converter website

[sharp ore]

Ah, so with that being said, I have no idea how I'd input that hex into this

[oak pendant]

You should be able to select it and type in the new hex value

for example setting 0.44 would look like this:

[sharp ore]

I'm just completely unable to edit anything in it

OH

I got it!

I'm just very slow LOL

[oak pendant]

No worries! It's good to be careful in general with any editing of registry values.

[sharp ore]

Oh definitely, I've already messed up on that years ago when I had no idea what I was doing

[oak pendant]

Yeah it can be perilous. Also make sure you had this checkmarked or the bytes will be in reverse order and result in garbage data

[final oasis]

So issue with model lift is gone, but now on legacy IK if you are not staying straight to your playspace, the torso rotates, like it was before with menu opened. I mean on FBT.
Now about IK2.0.
-I still cant lift my elbows like it was on legacy ik.
-avatar 2.0, when my head is lower than some point, changes finger gestures at rest to more like "grab" and changes shoulders position.
-avatar 3.0 just changes only shoulders position.

[iron hamlet]

Got a weird FBT tracking/calibration-issue since ~2 weeks and cant for the life of me figure it out 😐

Apparently my hip-tracker-position somehow gets interpreted wrongly... so when I look down on my female avi I look straight at my feet, instead of as usual the upper-body whiggly parts.

Complete AVI-view

Looking down on Desktop (thats the view I would expect in calibrated FBT too)

This is what I get after calibration, to even get parts of the hoodie into my FOV i need to look WAY more down as you'd naturally would...

To my knowledge I didnt change any settings in steamvr/vrchat these last 2 weeks... did un/reassign (waist) the hip tracker in steam, un/repaired all devices, redid playspace, tried with & without OVRAS & fpsvr, changed settings in vrchat and back (lockmode etc), hiptracker on front and back (my normal) - no change.
Also happens on all AVIs, so shouldnt be a viewpoint issue.

When using legacy-calibration I can get it right-ish, but not just quite... and ik2 calibration always comes up with this result.

I'm lost... 😐 Any ideas, thanks in advance!

[empty root]

look down irl and this is what youll see

desktop head movement pivots the head itself, while in vr it follows your headset 1:1. its expected for movements to be different between the two

[worldly quartz]

could be a lock head/hip thing

[iron hamlet]

idk 🤷🏻‍♂️ all I can say for sure is 2-3 weeks ago I calibrated @ 1,68cm height, changed it to 1,73cm (IRL height) after to compensate for the plateau-boots -> perfect

...recently - not so much anymore.

tried pretty much everything popping into my mind and atm I'm almost suspecting my HMD having an issue with its internal (tilt/axis) sensors

visually aligning the trackers to my avi using legacy-calibration doesnt have this issue (but others)

however, the IK2 calibration setting your avi-position by looking straight ahead always is noticably off - my avi gets placed too much forward 🤷🏻‍♂️

[empty root]

lean in either direction fowards/backwards and try to line yourself up irl to the tpose

[iron hamlet]

think i figured it out

stand by

[iron hamlet]

appears I actually did figure a new routine out that works consistently... only took like friday & saturday night flailing around in my system...

...and in the end it happened more due to random luck, but I won't complain

so... what NOW works for me:

• increasing arms/height ratio +10 ish (never had to touch this before)
• using 168cm & 178cm height to calibrate & dial into the sweet spot

still have no freakin' idea why/what exactly did cause this change 🤷🏻‍♂️

[iron hamlet]

byebye random-ass limb stretching... good riddance! ❤️‍🔥

took those 30min ago during serenitydnb spinning at deviate

[timber grove]

I would try using the normal calibration mode. Legacy is legacy for a reason

idk how long it will still be in-game for

[iron hamlet]

not using legacy

no idea where you read that, just tested it

to check & compare results while troubleshooting

wondering if @oak pendant might have some idea what happened on my end... I still dont have the slightest idea

sorry for the ping 🙈

[timber grove]

ah sorry

[robust tangle]

i wish there was a setup for fullbody that didn't require calibration, similar to how your controllers and headset don't need calibration. i wonder what it would take

[fiery plinth]

Vrchat already has saved calibration, it would just take sweettalking the devs to load it when the game starts. And always having your trackers equipped in the same spot.

[minor rampart]

I’d much rather see them bake something like standable into the IK, by default, than spend the time on something that’s not likely to be used much between sessions.

There’s going to be a decent amount of variation when taking off and putting on trackers.

Even with really stable straps like EOZ.

Holding between avatars was the big time saver.

[empty root]

thats not quite how trackers work tho

controllers and hmd are always in the same spot of the body

trackers wiggle and move and rotate and stuff

[empty root]

they wouldnt even have to do that, theyd just need to change the proxy anims in the adk 💀

[robust tangle]

so if we had some kind of plastic boot and belt that snap trackers into known orientation, it could be hard coded into the client and skip calibration? if it was supported?

[empty root]

that belt still moves on ur body

[robust tangle]

real belts don't

[empty root]

they still move lol

[vocal oxide]

you can use the rest of the belt that is used to tighten it as a kind of "thong" just tie it on the other side. Quite uncomfortable but works perfectly for me for handstand, handsprings, dancing and so on.

[robust tangle]

What causes avatars to shuffle feet and the head moves up a little whenever you stop using the analog stick? Some avatars do this, some don't

Even with all default playable layers

[timber willow]

ooh I noticed this too and was just going over my avatar that does it - I did some reworking the legs here and was guessing I didn't get the leg bones aligned well, like I have the feet too far forward or something

haven't confirmed yet though

[robust tangle]

My legs all the way up to my head bone are 100% vertical and all have identical Y axis coordinates. is this wrong to do?

I also have feet bones but not toes as the existence of toe bones seems to make the avatar always lean forward to hover over the toe bones

[timber willow]

I found this in here recently: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/940416188041809980/1199801072261288117/image.png?ex=65c3dcd2&is=65b167d2&hm=831ba69011e9c1f302ebc4e8a8147606f6b2291836e0443984f0fbccc1f764fc&

I made such adjustments today but haven't tested yet. I also had my avatar's hip bone not at y=0 so that may be another problem

(blender y, not unity y)

[robust tangle]

I remember that being a thing to fix the knee bending direction, but I'm not having that issue at all. do you know if this was in reference to fixing a shuffling issue?

[timber willow]

I don't, it was more of me guessing at what might be the cause, and fixing things I knew were wrong

(haven't tested yet, will try to do so this week)

[timber willow]

Ok so I tested a bit with the same avatar and I'm not seeing this little shuffle thing again, though I'm using FBT now and I wasn't when I last noticed it

[robust tangle]

It doesn't appear for FBT. it's a 3 point tracking issue only

Well, desktop as well

[timber willow]

Yeah at this point that's my conclusion as well. That avatar I do still have to fix the knee angle though, if nothing else it's an indicator I got that slightly wrong 🙂

[naive sandal]

Upright 0.65 plz fix

[magic wigeon]

?

[humble goblet]

Hey, all. So I tried the following FBT setup:
Left Foot
Right foot
Hip
Chest
It was pretty good, until I realized that the IK of my right elbow was acting strangely. My right elbow would jut out to the side while the left arm behaves normally. Does this configuration of FBT not work?

[vivid saffron]

So what is this IK-2?

[west bane]

Should work completely fine, I've used that combination of trackers before.

When you calibrate does your chest tracker lock onto the chest bone? As in the indicator points towards that boen. My first thought is that the chest tracker is somehow choosing to lock to the elbow instead of the chest.

Another question. Does this happen with all avatars you try in FBT? My second thought is that the IK pose or rigging on your avatar is causing the IK to mess up. If it happens on multiple avatars, then that isn't the issue.

[strong nova]

Is the toggle for Legacy IK and IK 2.0 supposed to be gone in v1442?

[final raven]

Still there.

[strong nova]

You only get this dropdown when FBT is enabled. I remember this being a toggle with in desktop or half-body.

[devout current]

to be fair, I'm honestly surprised this is even still an option

same thing goes for legacy calibration

[final raven]

I have it in half-body

[strong nova]

Could have sworn that the Body Tracking dropdown should still be in desktop mode.

guess not anymore?

[naive karma]

tbh if legacy calibration goes I might uninstall, can't stand my avatar moving away from my trackers while calibrating

[fiery plinth]

It your trackers move away from you.. you got other problems

[naive karma]

it's the opposite problem actually, tracker positions are fine, it's lining them up with a body that's constantly moving that's the problem, every time I've tried non legacy calibration it's been off in some way, either body way behind my actual trackers, or arms being completely screwed up because my arms weren't in a perfect T-pose (can't check when my avatar moves when I turn left/right to look and make sure arms are lined up), legacy calibration for me always has my body lining up nearly perfectly after calibration

[fiery plinth]

Unless you have elbow trackers it doesnt matter what your arms are doin, legacy or not. If legacy goes away, i recommend making sure vr floor is accurate by using toolkit set floor button every time you start up vr and having user real height accurate to what the game thinks. Than try combinations of tilting head down and/or pre bending knees. If knee bending trick does it, adjust arm span ratio.

[iron hamlet]

I beg to differ... calibrating without t-posing my arms usually turns out in a weird scuffy result...

since I started aligning my bodys orientation to the t-pose in calibration mirror the results are WAY more consistent!

and consistent in like*** "for 3 weekends now it works almost perfectly like that"***
...whereas the MONTHs before I basically spent HOURS each weekend trying to get my calibration right, just to end up frustrated af and letting scuff be scuff

and the kicker is...
I did try basically everything, every single one of those "new" advanced IK & tracking-toggles & sliders... still couldnt get it dialed in as it once was

now, I reset all of them (apart the wrist alignment thingy) and get near perfect results with 2-3 tries using my new routine!
if my calibration-result is weird it definitely was me not standing straight!

...klingt seltsam? Is' abba so!

[iron hamlet]

do try enabling your personal mirror - infront of you

then you can see the tracker-positions again

would not shock me if that'd help you too

ngl, really would LOVE to hear Kungs thoughts about that.
if anyone really can tell whats going on its him 😉

[mystic basalt]

do you guys really have this much trouble calibrating

hours of trouble?

💀

must be really broken armatures i gues 🤔

[fiery plinth]

Nah literally two seconds, can do it with my eyes closed. The most trouble i have is how far should my feet be spread apart and/or is continuous calibration makes a last second adjustment. There was that weirdness last vrchat version where my viewpoint would drop like 4 cm every time i switched worlds but that seemed to have fixed itsself

[naive karma]

that's gonna happen when legacy calibration is just better

[mystic basalt]

—literally no one ever, 2024

[static scroll]

If legacy calibration is better it’s because your bones are a mess.

[mild nimbus]

I still use it out of habit and my bones are fine 🤷‍♀️

I don't see the point in shaming people for it either

[mint abyss]

what even is legacy calibration? I use head lock because I can actually look in mirrors correctly

if they're talking about head-hip lock its better when you cannot notice the torso-stretch in some aspects, but that's far and few between

[mild nimbus]

your feet get locked to the floor and your avatar stays in place

slower but I personally find it easier to get the sweet spot better with some specific avatars

[mint abyss]

I also use playspace mover which is a godsend

(and totally not for messing around and visual-clipping through walls)

[mild nimbus]

also normally I'm the person shaming people for using older stuff B U T in this case its different given

1. it doesn't cause any performance issues (I hope)
2. it isn't too much extra work to maintain (I hope)

Now if either or both of these turn out to be false I'll change my tune right away 😅

[naive karma]

It's better because you can actually line your trackers up with the body properly, every time I try calibrating with the "new" calibration regardless of avatar it's always off, usually the hips are way behind my actual hips and my feet are always offset to the side, any time I try to adjust for the hips in particular it's impossible because the avatar moves with my head so I can't just step back slightly while calibrating, this could just be my OCD but how the hell anyone finds it even usable I will never understand, but surely if you can get it 100% perfect with one system and can't with the other, the one where complete perfection is possible is better, even if the "new" one is "good enough" for some people.

anyways muting this channel, I'm going to die on this hill until the end of time, if the fact I use a different calibration method is triggering to you, I'll keep using it just to piss you off :3

[marsh elm]

simply a lack of skill

[raw wadi]

Foreseen the future

Made it a post so we can see what others have to say on an open platform or not. https://twitter.com/franadaVRC/status/1785545941145006463?t=KINbkO84vPRkbG98tnqfkA&s=19

franada (@franadaVRC) on X

What are the reasons you still use legacy calibration in FBT when playing #VRChat ?

Everything is centered around the head in this game so IK 2.0 is the better option no ?

Twitter · May 1, 2024, 5:45 AM

Both can be valid options if one fails for you

[slim temple]

The avatar swinging around with head movement while you're trying to calibrate is annoying and pretty bad UX

[mystic basalt]

It just means you have a messed up armature

Probaly using cats in 2024 💀

Pressing fix model

[devout current]

as long as no one is also still using legacy IK lmao

[thorny carbon]

may sound like a stupid question. where do you get the IK 2.0? everyone tells me i have it but i do not have anything that remotly resembles the IK 2.0 menu

[elfin relic]

You have it, but some things are only accessible with FBT and of course they have spread out the options, so you have to look both in the big menu and the handheld menu.

[thorny carbon]

ok then my head and hip lock will not show up untill i am in fbt?

[marsh elm]

Yea? Why would you be offered to hip lock without fullbody

[dusk anvil]

anchors it to world

[polar blade]

What change to my avatar armature should I change if I encounter that when I put, in real life, one hand on top of my face and another one on my chin, in vr it looks offset downward?

like in the image, the oval represents my face and my avatar face and the lines my hands

[harsh belfry]

Nope, I'm running into this issue too. None of the Body Tracking options are available if you don't have an HMD connected running in VR mode. Which is...very obnoxious for what I'm trying to do

[strong nova]

Ah, shoot.

[harsh belfry]

Do you know where the correct place to report this might be? I know its probably intentional behaviour...but you know there are some esoteric use cases where you would like to have FBT but you don't have a HMD to connect...

[strong nova]

probably https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20

[harsh belfry]

Cool, I'm checking to make sure there isn't a duplicate but I can put something here

Do you know where to report outdated documentation? This page is very out of date, the gear menu no longer looks like this:
https://docs.vrchat.com/docs/osc-trackers

[strong nova]

🤔 probably [e-mail]?

[harsh belfry]

https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/allow-fbt-calibration-in-desktop-mode

Additional discussion has been happening in #full-body-tracking

[robust tangle]

From what I can tell this would have been an oversight that stared when we no longer had to re-calibrate every time we switched avatars; before that you'd just be dumped into fullbody right away without the need to calibrate to activate additional trackers

upvoted!

[mystic hawk]

there is a workaround... connect the headset and just replace its position with a vive traker on a cap.... it uhm.... works

[bronze olive]

Does anyone here know : if theres an actual RULE on where your armature should lie in relation to origin? like, every base i look at (i make assets for sale so i have access to MANY different bases), rests so differently and I would be shocked if this doesn't effect FBT in some way....

im looking specifically at, hip, head and feet location since i assume thats what would be important (also maybe wrist?)

[finite bough]

That looks fine

[sharp stump]

@uncut nova I remember the pivot of my Head being most important to have centered over the origin, versus anything else. iirc what was affected was, if I looked way down, sometimes my avatar would start shuffling away, when my Head bone was too far off the origin.

[raw wadi]

I believe the ik is dragged from the viewpoint

Too forward, when you look down the body lift up

Etc

[lilac spear]

tons of avis suffer from this, but you only really notice it with fbt and "lock head"

[clear ledge]

anyone who needs an admin hit me up

[wise panther]

The viewpoint is the primary tracking point yes

[crude finch]

Owo emoji

[errant pulsar]

anyone know why with freeze tracking on disconnect enabled, if i turn off a controller parallel to my body while laying down itll end up perpendicular (90 degrees)

figured it out, re-enabling legacy ik, locking in, disabling, then locking back in makes arms rest at side if fbt animations is disabled aswell

[tame sonnet]

Hey, does anyone know if VRCArmatureConstraint exists or has ever existed as a component?

[wise panther]

Armature what now

[rustic berry]

that doesn't sound familiar at all, can you elaborate?

[tame sonnet]

I confirmed that such a thing never existed.

I was looking for a constraint for use in a dance emote where I wanted an avatar's hands and fingers to automatically snap to an object's position and orient them to align instead of having to manually position them myself and edit the animations for fine-tuning.

It was supposedly a base component for implementing inverse kinematic effects, specifically to allow you to move a target object and have the rotations of a chain of bones in your avatar's skeleton automatically adjust so that a specific bone reaches the position and orientation of that target as well as control over the weight blending to allow blending between an original animation and the influence of the constraint.

Supposedly it had a rotation position constraint that would allow you to define both the position and rotation of a constrained bone based on a source object where you need both a location and orientation of an object you're trying to auto-position, in my case, a set of hands on a standing beam.

[mystic basalt]

finalik

[strong nova]

https://wiki.vrchat.com/wiki/Inverse_Kinematics

[tame cloak]

Hello everyone

[rotund aspen]

hello

[marsh elm]

what compels someone to say hi in the most unused and hidden channels of the server

[fringe echo]

Idk man

[fiery plinth]

Its friday, let them vibe

[rare cedar]

well well well

[vestal crater]

[finite bough]

Super dead channel.

[potent yew]

ik-3 when? /s

[iron hamlet]

sheeesh & yeet! lol

[ornate turtle]

Why is no one reporting on vrchat's server connection issue like what the fuck it's been like this for months.

[fringe echo]

Talks in the most dead channel btw

[ashen wadi]

does the feet/toe sinking into the ground has anything to do with IK? or is it a matter of bounding box? or T-pose posing?

[versed nebula]

I got the update but there’s a bug where you can’t un favorite the avatars that has been taken down

Also trying to load up chill worlds won’t load and it keeps crashing

[fringe echo]

Talking in the most dead and not right chat at all

[iron hamlet]

Might've been me & my social phobia avoiding conversations 😄

[void bridge]

Ok, I'm at a bit of an impasse here. I'm trying to get my fingers to look right when bending with my index controllers but as most of us who work with avatars know, muscle limits are not being respected anymore with the new IK. is there a formula here to get fingers to not look terrible? It seems to ignore bone roll too

I'm starting to think it has to do with A pose vs T pose but that would be kind of crazy

[void bridge]

ok...so turns out, it expects every finger bone to be perfectly aligned with the X axis. It works fine with A pose, as long as the fingers are aligned perfectly when T posing. I still haven't figured out what it expects for the thumb though

[void bridge]

seems to be expecting the thumb to not be angled down, like flat with the fingers but pointing away at 45 degrees kinda

[iron hamlet]

didnt dare to dive into that since the change, just relying on the legacy fingerposition-toggle 🙈

[void bridge]

yeah uh, turns out I had legacy finger tracking turned on and turning it off made them go back to looking awful. so...back to square one

[left rose]

awh phooey i cant send a cat emoji

[viscid sedge]

Not sure where to ask this, but I just got a Quest Pro and I was getting the facetracking set up last night. I got my eyes to track but nothing else would track. If someone is able to help I'd greatly appreciate it!

[elfin spoke]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/1378227878063243364.gif?size=48&animated=true&name=_carregando_3_

[viscid sedge]

I forgot to update, I got it figureed out!

[acoustic snow]

wrangling and mangling IK2 and finalIK to get non-clipping legs

[quartz sail]

wait omg i wanna learn how to do that for my avi

[clear sentinel]

since the function is come with IK2.0 , did anyone has faceing "--ignore-trackers=" is not working in current client and SteamVR?
I have use OpenVRspacecalibrator to only setup for head continuous calibration , but it look like even I set to ignore in launch option , it still be asign as tracker in VRChat and trigger avatar to FBT mode

[fiery plinth]

works for me, heres how mine looks

[clear sentinel]

uhh , after some debug , it turns out I have include some space that make syntax error in my batch file that make it not working as normal , thx!

[celest arrow]

hey guys vive 3.0 questie here.. is this normal? both my arms would be usually downards if my hands are facing upwards

[rustic berry]

https://fixupx.com/damakokoko/status/1977537069133213913/en

damakoko (@damakokoko)

📑 Translated from Japanese

Yesterday, while talking with a friend, we came to the conclusion that my View Position might be off. When I checked the View Position using Nadema's gimmick, I was shocked to find it was at my mouth. However, when I checked in Unity, it was at the eye position. Upon further investigation, I found that when standing, the View Position is at the eye level, but when sitting on a chair, it shifts to the mouth position (this happens with both 3-point and full tracking). Furthermore, it shifts even more when there’s forward or backward movement, like leaning against a backrest. After more research, I found that enabling the setting [Use Tracking and IK/Old IK Solving] fixed the issue. Additionally, I corrected a 5cm deviation in the user’s height and fine-tuned the View Position in Unity while checking with Nadema’s gimmick, finally setting it to the perfect position. If you feel it shifts when sitting, it might be worth checking this settin…

FixupX · Oct 13, 2025, 12:49 AM

this came across my feed, and seems to line up with some experiences other people have described before

[fiery plinth]

for a while i needed to rejoin my homeworld after calibrating fbt to recalibrate fbt again so the viewball wasnt in my like neck, never figured out what caused it so never filled out a canny

[empty root]

inb4 they had lock hip and not lock head

[wise panther]

yea no thats definitely just lock hip being enabled

[empty root]

https://fixupx.com/damakokoko/status/1977543647622287616

damakoko (@damakokoko)

追加情報。フォロワーさんが以下のような情報くれたので参考までに貼っておきます
︀︀>同じ現象になってたけど別の解決策として小さいメニューにある背骨のモードを頭もしくは両方を固定にすると直りました

**🔁 16 ❤️ 47 👁️ 15.6K **

FixupX · Oct 13, 2025, 1:15 AM

[empty root]

ding ding ding ding, we have a winner winner chicken dinner

[rustic berry]

lmao

[long topaz]

use lock head or lock both , that happens when using lock hip

lol just saw now that they already said it

[dim perch]

Hi does anyone know any good rave discord servers and the link to them

?

[modern lynx]

I want a simple seating animation for world stations. So I created a simple pose (image 1) and a controller for my station (image 4/5). This works fine as long tracking is set to animation (image 2). But I would like to be able to look around - so I enable tracking of the head after some delay. But as soon that happens, the lower spine does a unnatural rotation (image 3).

I have another (lying) pose, which works better. It seems to be random to the pose. Why the spine is affected when I enable head tracking only? Are there any docs on it (I didn't found). Or are there some rules how a pose has to be designed (some secret bone alignments maybe)?

[wise panther]

When animation takes over completely ik is not used
But when you enable tracking in something it tries to drag the rest of the body to where that part is

Otherwise itd be your neck stretching backwards instead of the spine

[modern lynx]

Ok, that makes sense in VR, because you can move your head away from the pose. I forgot to mention it - I built and tested this for desktop (and it's the same avatar for creating the pose and in the world - it has only a different skin). I would not expect such a stretch compensation here 🤔

[wise panther]

desktop also moves the ik?

like desktop doesnt just not use ik

[modern lynx]

Yes - it looks so. For example: This second pose does also some unwanted hip rotation. But less then the other. I also tested to move the hip forward or backward from the origin (or align the head, view point, neck with it). It seems to change things. But it's never as designed and look always crumpled.

And the third example look almost the same. There is only a minor offset.

And I also observed that it makes a difference depending on how you look when you enter the station.

I start to think about to keep all on animation and implement my own head look (pitch/yaw). But thats idiotical.

[modern lynx]

Another thing I remarked: When I enter into the station from a crouched or crawling position, it works! The issue is only when I enter from a standing position. I guess, here is a bug somewhere 🤔

[modern lynx]

As there are a bunch of issues related to my last post, I created a Canny in meantime:
https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/wrong-behavior-in-desktop-when-entering-upright-in-stations

[jolly mural]

What does Ik-2 mean

[empty solar]

it's the updated IK system that was introduce around 2022 that allows you to use multiple trackers in vrc.

[jolly mural]

[strong nova]

https://fxbsky.app/profile/vltmn.itch.io/post/3mfeypw46ns26

flo veltman (@vltmn.itch.io)

Tfw you still have some edge cases to fix in your procedural locomotion system #gamedev

**🔁 82 ❤️ 266 **

▶ Play video

FxBluesky · Feb 21, 2026, 4:02 PM

[terse kestrel]

IK... TWO

[frosty loom]

[vale oar]

T W O

[terse kestrel]

@oak pendant say something in your channel before we open it

make it impactful

no pressure

[oak pendant]

Hi everyone! Been looking forward to you all being able to try this! Have fun and remember to give your feedback!

[real trellis]

Bro

[final raven]

omfg

[real trellis]

Ik

2

[final raven]

im gonna die

tupper pls

[devout current]

what

[dusk anvil]

finally they made the sequel

[prisma meadow]

pog

[rocky crypt]

Very nice!

[clever thicket]

BRO

[hollow sigil]

Avatar dynamics is next beta, I swear it is

[undone plinth]

Nice

[devout current]

AAAAAAA

[meager matrix]

The announcement scared me lmao

[trim fox]

finally

[stiff mulch]

[loud oxide]

what is ik

[tall smelt]

same

[final raven]

omfg it's compatible with live lets fuckign goooooo

[ocean bolt]

Pagman

[final raven]

i'm literally... this is too much

[desert elm]

@terse kestrel 3 now 6 when can we have 40 pucks or a mocap suit

[undone plinth]

Spine bending alert i repeat spine bending alert

[stiff mulch]

256-point tracking?

[gleaming igloo]

AAAAAA

[bright sand]

A

[desert elm]

yes

[dusk anvil]

did i read... automatic elbow positioning?!!?!?

[oak pendant]

Yep!

[runic rover]

wheres my beta

[desert elm]

listen hear me out VRC is the most expencive game to get in to now

[tender plaza]

does it work for non fbt?

[oak pendant]

"IK-Beta" on steam

[runic rover]

IT says so in announcements

[strange idol]

Looks good! Very hyped to give it a shot. 😮

[ancient geode]

hell ya i can finaly use my sw7's

[oak pendant]

Yes, works for just head and hands only as well

[ancient ermine]

YOOO Excited!

[devout current]

wait, it works with live?

[tender plaza]

oh hell yesss

[oak pendant]

Yes, live users will see your new IK as well

[devout current]

yessss

[silver geyser]

yes

[trim fox]

wow

[devout current]

me happy

[foggy mauve]

This is really awesome

[trim fox]

time to do it

[foggy mauve]

I'm so glad that it works in 3pt tracking too

[runic rover]

So people non-beta cna see my new IK? Amazing work :D

[foggy mauve]

I love the elbow tweaks

[dusk anvil]

thank you kung

[tawny oyster]

ok so question: if i were to get knee/elbow trackers, which trackers and which straps would anyone recommend

[ancient geode]

ya its all just bone positions you send the same data in the end just calculate it better

[lethal bridge]

Thank you Kung

[dusk anvil]

(and vrchat team)

[foggy mauve]

Vrc devs are the real mvps

[merry cliff]

is there a specific time the open beta will be live? i dont see it on steam

[carmine gate]

omg I love every single vrchat developer so much

[ancient geode]

it doing 10point right now lol

[open salmon]

👀

[ancient geode]

tundra trackers for the win

[river wyvern]

Lemme go grab my tundras

[prisma meadow]

need to restart steam

[merry cliff]

ok i'll try that

[open salmon]

restarting steam does the job

[river wyvern]

@oak pendant any bone placements on models I need to fix or we all gucci with current bone systems

[final sphinx]

POG

[river wyvern]

or add

[icy ferry]

sach told me no fbt fixes for me specifically. sach was confidently WRONG.

[terse kestrel]

I fixed some errors in the blog, please refresh it!!

[merry cliff]

aahh yes i see it now

[meager sand]

another beta? already?

[merry cliff]

and yall said it works with live non-beta servers, yea?

[final sphinx]

Too bad at this apartment i only got the old bases and 6pt qwq or concurrently at max 6 trackers

[desert elm]

im confued is it net compatiable ?

[silver geyser]

interesting to see a beta that separate from the regular beta branch

[flint yew]

time to charge my trackers lol

[ionic skiff]

super cool!

[terse kestrel]

... it's quite clear in the discord announcement, blog, and tweet that it's live compat, but yes! it is!

[strong nova]

❤️

[desert elm]

POG

[runic rover]

thanks yall for the hard work

[terse kestrel]

Please read the things we write! They mean stuff!

[icy ferry]

i'll have to check it later

[digital grove]

holy shit what I was almost right about the new beta release

[fallow fractal]

👀

[terse kestrel]

Please!!!!!!!

[ionic heron]

1: new channel pog
2: new IK pog AAA

[digital grove]

nice

[runic rover]

Will this fix the "Head goes through chest" issue on various avatars or is this per avatar?

[ionic heron]

also rtdm

[open salmon]

i wonder how it's going to work with the kinect

[undone plinth]

Read the patch notes guys

[open salmon]

gonna test that out later in the day

[undone plinth]

It has multiple modes that address the various potential situations

[snow heart]

https://tenor.com/view/tldr-george-clooney-too-long-didnt-read-flip-pages-gif-13114170

[vagrant vector]

Is all the new IK still based in FIK 1.9 or has that been updated to 2.0/2.1?

[gleaming igloo]

does it still autodetect which trackers go where? or do I actually need to label my trackers now?

[dark silo]

deadass, best part of this IK update is not having to mildly hold my arms out from my chest while "pretending" to grab the side of my body doing thinking poses

[strong nova]

I'm on my treadmill right now. What a coincidence.

[runic rover]

Agreed.

[final sphinx]

new IK + FBT

[devout current]

wait, whats with my build id? xD

[runic rover]

Now you can run on your treadmill in better IK :p

[ionic heron]

1169
4

[strong nova]

nice

[gleaming igloo]

nice

[open salmon]

nice

[ionic heron]

nice

[trim fox]

nice

[wet trout]

nice

[runic rover]

nice

[viscid hatch]

nice

[final sphinx]

nice

[merry cliff]

nice

[oak pendant]

The "4" will increment with updates

[devout current]

ahhh

[gleaming igloo]

[dark silo]

it's actually build 292.25

[runic rover]

Gonna just screenshot the nice

[gleaming igloo]

same

[oak pendant]

was checking some other stuff reading back through and replying to questions

[meager matrix]

4

[undone plinth]

You can tell it to prioritize keeping your view ball aligned, you can tell it to prioritize keeping your hips aligned, or you can tell it to attempt to do both which might result in some weird bending.

[strong nova]

You guys want to see me sprint on a Kat Walk C?

[river wyvern]

Its not going to cause "noodling" with bones like neos does if you have twist IK right?

[solar cloud]

I don't have fbt but I'll test the beta out anyways i guess cause it mentions 3 point too

[ionic heron]

thought "run 9" was a speed or something lmao

dagger speed 9

also I'm so salty that my headset cable is broken rn :sadge:

[oak pendant]

The goal to have more compatibility than old IK with bone placements. But because the spine is free to bend more than before, if you have a sharp corner in your spine (a lot of people have chest bones that are pretty far forward) when new IK solves your spine it might pull it straighter causing an undesirable look, try it out and see how it goes though. Overall the new IK supports many of the previously messed up rigs

[vagrant vector]

Time to test if spiders still work 🙏 😭

[gleaming igloo]

F

probably won't

[oak pendant]

We didn't update FIK version, but there is a LOT going on beyond just FIK. I tested on spiders though if that's what you're wondering about

[gleaming igloo]

oooh

[vagrant vector]

I love you kung

[digital grove]

kung works in vrchat now? interesting

[brazen condor]

I'm not able to switch to the IK beta version

[gleaming igloo]

nvm I guess Kung got us ❤️

[brazen condor]

Its saying "Passord incorrect"

Err access code incorrect

[river wyvern]

Alrighty are you guys planning for chest tracker in the future? If so are we going with a 4 bone spine set up? I'll test it with the rig I made to see if it causes that straight issue.

[icy ferry]

if nobody else got us, kung got us

[terse kestrel]

Remember, same rules apply in here as they do in #open-beta-discussion:

1. If you didn't post your report to the Feedback board, you didn't report it and it will not be addressed. Mentioning it in this channel does not count. https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20
2. Construct your feedback and bug reports sanely. Focus on clarity, succinct but complete descriptions, direct observations, examples, and reproduction steps.
3. We might ask you questions on the Feedback board. Please respond as soon as you can, with as much detail as possible. The easier it is for us to work with you, the more we'll be happy to work with you to solve your issue.

[ionic heron]

restart steam fully

[gleaming igloo]

don't need a code , you're in it

if you selected it in the drop down, then you're in the beta

[oak pendant]

If you'd like a chest tracker please try what you'd use it for in 10pt first and then make a case on canny for how 10pt doesn't work for your use case.

[finite basin]

Have the best practices for bones/rigging for vrchat full body Ik changed? On both the most recent live build, along with this IK beta, my avatars hips are twisted backwards about 30 degrees when using full body IK. I think I can fix this by moving the top of the leg bones forward to be aligned with the hip bones on the y axis, but im curious if anything has changed to cause the 30 degree twist.

[clever thicket]

this new ik looks great, bless ❤️

[solar cloud]

Can i join you quick?

[gleaming igloo]

everyone liked that

[terse kestrel]

Generally speaking: https://docs.vrchat.com/docs/full-body-tracking#rigging-requirements

[dusk anvil]

the guy telling kung what to do to show off ik 2 like: "alright now do the chicken dance"

[river wyvern]

Yeah because for things like neos I add an extra spine bone. I'm happy to send copies of both rigs. I'll upload and test both rigs as well. I give out my rig for others too so some creators do rely on the way I set up my bone structure. Gives me something to do today especially if I need to update models.

[ionic heron]

heard the music in my head

[oak pendant]

The rig requirements are more lenient now than before in general. Though if you use "lock head" mode and you have a completely upside down hip bone, that mode doesn't function right now

[clever thicket]

ik beta go brrr

[icy ferry]

i'm tempted to stop what i'm doing and go get in vr

[copper trench]

[meager sand]

im about to try it out soon

[terse kestrel]

... so, just a live instance??

[river wyvern]

Im throwing on all my trackers rn

[finite basin]

Odd, Its now not working where it was before. Would it be possible to include an example rig as part of the vrchat docs for reference of the best practices?

[brazen condor]

same'

[icy ferry]

bad influence vrchat

time to go start up my pc

[brazen condor]

Do we wanna get a public beta instance up?

[dusk anvil]

alright time to attempt to intentionally break the game and bring it to its knees

[river wyvern]

I just released a new model Im due for a break

[ionic heron]

This is compatible with Live - also Sipp literally just started one above lul

[oak pendant]

Upper-chest bone is now supported if that's what you mean, but 11pt with a chest tracker isn't supported at this time. In general a lot reasons behind of requests for the chest tracker are fixed by the general bug fixes to even 6pt so I'd just like to keep my eye on what use cases people need 11pt for. Not ruling it out, but no promise to implement at this time either

[small umbra]

Got dam this is sick

[meager sand]

i wonder it this is gonna break my avatars leg rigging setup

[clever thicket]

...yes.

[oak pendant]

Change your "lock" mode and see if it works. Your hip bone is likely upside down from the 3 year old rig hack

[placid crown]

Does the new ik place your viewpoint where the eyes are regardless of how it's calibrated?

[river wyvern]

For dancing, chest tracker is great if you do isolations, any sort of pop-locking or animation. Its extremely useful. So for people like the people in IDA they will use that consistently.

[strong nova]

Hands on hips looks really goofy in 6pt

[oak pendant]

You can also take screenshots of your bones in this world so we can see what's going on: https://vrchat.com/home/world/wrld_01025423-c339-4735-8af9-ba45cc9e46f2

[plain quail]

Have the walking animation been changed? Also the hands seems to move towards your body when you run.

[oak pendant]

The torso no longer is pulled to the hands so depending on how far out you reach, they'll get pulled back by the run animation

[terse kestrel]

I personally prefer "lock head" and leave hips unlocked

because idc if my hip is slightly off

but I DO care if my head is

[small umbra]

I've heard it was possible to sacrifice legs for tracking chairs. is it now possible now to track chairs and legs or has this mode of tracking never been possible or very broken now or then?

[primal viper]

Do people not on the beta branch see the new IK?

[oak pendant]

And yeah there was a request to have less drift on tracking during locomotion so run animation is smoother. If you'd like the less smooth mode in legacy leave feedback on canny

[terse kestrel]

yes

IK is solved locally and then transmitted to remotes as serialized muscle poses, so

[dusk anvil]

incredible

[final raven]

I just wanna say, thanks for enabling compatibility with Live servers 💜

[river wyvern]

Alrighty time to go do a ton of dance moves record it and tear the tracking apart 🙂

[ionic heron]

dare I say this is incredibly pog

[plain quail]

Also Cyberchimp is super happy on the tracking, never seen him this happy

[oak pendant]

Just putting out there "lock head" mode is the roughest in the current version. it lets the body sink down to match view position, but an attempt was made to prevent this from causing the knees to bend when you look down. If it's too janky (I think it's a bit janky) I'll likely simplify it to just allow knee bending

[keen stream]

lock head always work better for me

[finite basin]

I think the leg bones being behind the hips is the issue. Would this cause issues with the new IK?

[river wyvern]

OH kung how are you placing your trackers for elbow and knee are you above or below the joint?

[oak pendant]

latest version has the anti-knee bend change though, so you may no longer like it

[oak pendant]

Above the joint

[river wyvern]

awesome thats great to know because knee slides might end in trackers breaking the other way

[oak pendant]

if the hip bone is pointing up, it should still work, but if it doesn't let me know and I'll want to see why, upside down hip not working in "lock head" is currently the only known issue of a rig config that fails

[oak crow]

this already? guess it's more trackers time, although personally I only care about the arm ones, the knees usually work pretty well without special tracking as is

[finite basin]

Heading back to work now, but ill try that lock head mode later on this beta branch. Thanks for the help!

[oak pendant]

grab some screenshots in https://vrchat.com/home/world/wrld_01025423-c339-4735-8af9-ba45cc9e46f2 if you can too. It shows the bone orientations better than the sticks in blender. Thanks for testing btw!

[wise dew]

Hey quick question, do you guys need people testing budget tracking options. Kinect, Webcam, etc, or are you looking more for laser tracked FBT testing.

[oak pendant]

Yeah I experienced the same thing, knee slides down if it's below the joint

[teal halo]

so testing now in 3pt, shoulders have changed ALOT. for the better for sure

[finite basin]

Saved that world for later, thanks!

[teal halo]

actually fixed a number of clipping issues of mine

[oak crow]

I wasn't going to play more tonight but I guess it's time to get back on lol

[oak pendant]

Testing various setups is always appreciated!

[oak pendant]

Glad you like it, I spent some time modeling normal anatomical motion

[clever thicket]

great work kung

[teal halo]

as a seated player 24/7 user i can feel the fixes drastically.

[misty fulcrum]

Wow, you all are on fire, so many new good things just so suddenly :D

[small umbra]

speaking of which KinectToVR just launched a new beta

[misty fulcrum]

Thanks for bringing the amazing new things

[mystic thistle]

Guess il have to setup all my trackers tonight and give it a try.
Very curious how the new elbow rotations and such are in 3 point aswell.
gonna see in person later

[carmine gate]

Me when we literally just dropped a K2VR beta with knee and elbow trackers

Also, aughip amazing, try it https://getaughip.com

[tight aurora]

aughip 0.2 just dropped too

[carmine gate]

your mom dropped

[small umbra]

this is so exciting

[clever thicket]

im hurting https://i.imgur.com/wlegWbp.png

[tight aurora]

*dies*

[wise dew]

everyone be putting in work. lol

[wispy grail]

So where is it listed how to access this?

[flint yew]

so it’s 7 trackers max now pog

[short knot]

owo

[carmine gate]

When using Kinect, I recommend setting the IK to lock head. That way you alleviate the 30hz latency on the hip

[robust tangle]

Can “elbows only” (2 trackers) be on the game plan?

[wispy grail]

thanks!

[carmine gate]

that's what 8point is

you can use just knees if you want

[robust tangle]

8 point requires 5 body trackers

[oak crow]

I wonder if this changes anything about how the chest keeps acting weird

[tame pewter]

it’s ok do chicken dance

[robust tangle]

Elbows only would be head hands and elbows

2 trackers

[carmine gate]

If you have only 2 trackers, use augmented hip to make a virtual IK hip

[flint yew]

imma have a go at 10 point and record it

[robust tangle]

Do you have a guide for that

[flint yew]

vrchat 16 point when? I need a reason to use all my trackers

[carmine gate]

https://getaughip.com run the installer, start steamvr, turn on the feet trackers, done.

[oak pendant]

Make a canny post asking for it, we've received requests for various other combinations of trackers but I want to have it documented there as well as gauge interest and see people's comments on how they'd plan to use

[oak pendant]

toe trackers?

[flint yew]

do you mean elbows + typical hip and feet?

[robust tangle]

Yeah I know a lot of people that have three tracters currently who would love to trade their legs for better elbows without buying more hardware

[oak pendant]

j/k toe handling is probably better done via OSC at this point

[mystic thistle]

Im happy to see after all these years the IK being worked on.
Been a long time coming for sure

[flint yew]

was mostly a joke, have no idea where to stick em on as well lol

might just get a cat, and strap em to it, and have an osc cat

[maiden rock]

kung do the arms still need to be offset with shorter player heights / ovr offsets

[flint yew]

would have to get tundras for better cat comfort

[dusk anvil]

i can notice a very slight difference when i put my arms up in live ik and beta ik
(3 point standing)

[oak pendant]

the question would be, would they still trade legs for elbows with the new elbow position prediction model, but yeah I can see the use case, make sure you document on canny tho

[dusk anvil]

a good difference

[hazy sleet]

Hmm, I wonder if my very first avatar will work with this new system or if it'll still pretzel.

[robust tangle]

That’s true I still need to jump in and look at the new six point

[oak crow]

okay, wow, the elbows already feel better

[oak pendant]

Start out using your correct IRL User Real Height with the new IK. If you don't like scaling you can then change from there as before, but an effort was made to make scaling more consistent and accurate to the arm span when you t-pose IRL

[maiden rock]

cheers

[robust tangle]

Maybe VRChat will stop making me say I’m 4 inches shorter than I really am now lol

[silver geyser]

question if this is going to be a more long-term open Beta what happens if a regular open Beta starts while the ik still being worked on

[oak pendant]

it likely will, try your actual IRL first when testing the IK beta

[sleek anchor]

What a great announcement! Can't wait to try it out 🙂

[oak pendant]

I mean will likely stop needing you to use a fake User Real Height

[oak crow]

the knee follows my foot just that little bit better too

[oak pendant]

The plan is for this to hang out for a while as a live compatible beta. There may be other open betas that come and go as this one sits here.

[hot grotto]

kung was the hip animation thing fixed or will i need to mangle my animator to force it?

[oak crow]

my legs aren't just going through each other when I cross them while standing

[oak pendant]

For default locomotion, it's still using the smoother style that 3pt has on live

[oak crow]

incredible lol

[hot grotto]

ok

[hazy sleet]

In other words: IK-beta is the new live until further notice

[small umbra]

Spaghetti Bowl, Chair, and Door

[oak pendant]

definitely post a canny about it though. The canny is useful because other people can vote and we can see what people like/dislike, especially useful when talking about something users can change on their own but we're setting a default for

[oak pendant]

I mean... I'll be using it 😉

[hot grotto]

gotcha

[mystic thistle]

One big question Kung since cant test right now maybe you will know.

is the Root Bug fixed? where in FBT your root will become offset over time and cause issues like avatar disappearing in mirror or things on roof of avatar floating away as you move around.

[still grotto]

Yes

I am so, so happy to be done with that bug, you have no idea

[mystic thistle]

[stuck coyote]

Nice

[oak pendant]

yep, at least it should be, that was early in development of this, so if you find that the bug has creeped back in let us know

[mystic thistle]

YESSSSSS

[silver geyser]

awesome

[small umbra]

CDJ tracking when?

[mystic thistle]

Will do. Been such a annoying bug

[hazy sleet]

Time to buy more trackers, though.

VRChat: the most expensive free "game" you'll ever "play".

[robust tangle]

First thing I’m testing is the index root translation weirdness when you have index controllers

[oak pendant]

Ah, yeah just noticed left out the root bug fix in patch notes. But yeah should be fixed

[mystic thistle]

❤️

[spiral mesa]

fully crouching then moving returns me to the standing running animation and not crouch walking

really feels 100x smoother, i can now fully extend arms and legs without awkward bending

other than the 1 issue, i like it

[silver geyser]

cross my mind it's very helpful there is a toggle to Old Behavior button so it makes it very easy for folks to make comparison videos showing off how much better the ik is

[oak pendant]

make sure to get that on canny, thanks for testing

[spiral mesa]

i'll record a video later for you

[final moss]

Holy shit its compatible??? tysmmmmm

Ilysm

[devout current]

hmmm, locking it to my head looks kinda broken 😅

[silver geyser]

question even though this beta is PC only will the quest players see the better ik & Ten Point track

[oak crow]

chest no longer moves with the head, that's good

[devout current]

hip looks fine though

[mossy tendon]

oh, root bug was fixed? heck yeah, hopefully that should make avatar stations less funky too

[oak pendant]

It's theoretically possible that the legacy toggle doesn't work correctly because there's a lot going on behind the scenes to allow both to exist in the same build. So if anyone wants to test legacy on the IK Beta, please do as well. (AFAIK it works correctly to restore the old behavior though)

[devout current]

with hip & head it's also a bit broken

[oak pendant]

yeah your avatar's hip bone is pointing straight down. lock head doesn't work with upside down hips

[tawdry nymph]

🔥

[robust tangle]

Does the IK beta include OSC

[oak pendant]

Yep

[mossy tendon]

it'd be nice if you could do how much head/hip following is done as sort of a percentage thing 🤔
while sitting, if i set head lock mode my neck straightens out sorta weird and my hips move dramatically if i look down
but maybe its armature issues or somethin

[devout current]

okay, thx for letting me know

[flint yew]

that's gonna be an issue as like probably over 3% of vrc users are rexes lmao

[tawdry glen]

I'm going to assume this isn't going to do much for desktop players, cause IK is mostly irrelevant on desktop other than for certain tracking/animation hybrid states.

[river wyvern]

is there an official testing lobby

[digital grove]

correct

[silver geyser]

wonder if there's going to be lots of chicken dancing in the testing lobbies

[tawdry glen]

You know it lol.

[oak pendant]

The upside down hip actually works in the other two modes, so they'll have that. It may get fixed at some point, but we aren't considering it a bug because upside down hip is quite broken from a rigging perspective. It got popularized 3 years go as a rig hack and some people still do it

[minor rampart]

def some issues wwith things, but overall the arm and chest fixes I'm impressed with

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/915325049387483157/946925027348058152/VRChat_1920x1080_2022-02-25_19-14-13.594.png

^new IK^

[brazen condor]

I think the elbows are less accurate when you are holding your hand on your elbow and trying to test it

[minor rampart]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/915325049387483157/946925107706732544/unknown.png

^old IK^

[brazen condor]

But overall it seems much smoother

I'd say old IK vs new IK, new IK wins but old IK has some uses its better at (More accurate elbows when up close, versus more dyanmic elbows)

[tawdry glen]

I don't know why I get so much amusement out of broken IK lol.

[oak pendant]

try the different modes to see if you find one that works for you, also did you reset to your actual IRL User Real Height? Scaling is different between legacy and new so floor clipping might happen if you don't adjust USer Real Height

[brazen condor]

If the IK is only a client side changed meh might as well keep both options

[viscid hatch]

is it normal that my trackers go under the floor in the new ik?

[brazen condor]

No that seems to be it in general without playspace mover

I really do hope VRC fixes that aspect

[minor rampart]

I did

I set it to my actual height and tried full lock, head lock, and hip lock

results are still the same

tried different heights, too just in case, but still no dice.

[oak pendant]

Ah, so it's always clipping through the floor for you? Try on a few different avatars if you can as well, if it's a consistent issue then make a canny post please if you can

[minor rampart]

absolutely

need to break for dinner, but I'll do follow up testing after that

and if it persists with multiple avatars, I"ll be more than happy to make a post

[robust tangle]

There is a really common “sitting on ground cross legged” animation that is publicly distributable that has always had questionable knee rotations. I wouldn’t be surprised if it looks bad now.

[silk magnet]

does this new system still use FinalIK as the backend or is this a totally new system?

[brazen condor]

Shrug

[tawdry glen]

Same system.

[oak pendant]

depending on avatar proportions and your User Real Height, I think they can go under the floor, but this might be an issue related to the new scaling methods, so if it's something I can solve I'll keep an eye on it. May relate to @minor rampart 's issue, so just keep stuff documented on canny and I can get on it

[silk magnet]

Ok cool

[devout current]

same issue here

[final sphinx]

the rantichis broken

[minor rampart]

I'll third this

[heady yoke]

Okay so how do I join the beta?!

Can I opt in via steam?

[minor rampart]

right click on VRC in steam-->properties->beta tab->IK

[viscid hatch]

Old IK

[oak crow]

okay, my left index controller's finger tracking feels a lot better

[viscid hatch]

New IK (trackers under the floor, arm length shortened)

[heady yoke]

Okay, do I need an access code or anything

[minor rampart]

no

[oak pendant]

FinalIK is still in use, but it's not just FinalIK, there's quite a bit going on but can't give specifics on inner workings of everything

[brazen condor]

I will say a lot of people without playspace mover was under on the feet aspect

[minor rampart]

just select it, click ok, and it'll start downloading

[minor rampart]

oh, I will say...

[oak pendant]

Are you using the same User Real Height in both Legacy and Beta modes?

[viscid hatch]

Yup

[minor rampart]

having support for JUST elbow tracking+hip, would be great.

[viscid hatch]

No settings changed between switching modes

[river wyvern]

editing this list as I go along will also post side by side to canny:

• proportions need to be fixed to your body type if using this system 100% I tested two rigs, one that is fit to me and one that I make average for others. The one thats accurate is my own version
• if you lose a knee tracker position body goes yeet requires recal to come back doesnt happen with elbow, elbow goes yeet instead of full body
• hip is acting stiffer (compared to live movement)
• neck is being weird (weird rotations could also be because my neck length to match irl)
• real user height required (people cannot lock into lower heights)

[minor rampart]

because not everyone can afford/get ahold of enough trackers yet, but they still might want...for whatever reason, elbow over feet tracking---or at least just want to test out elbow tracking for bugs and such

[river wyvern]

like that with the hip it should be okay to have only elbow Im pretty sure

like people can just havbe a hip tracker if they wanted

[oak pendant]

hip acting stiffer in which mode?

[minor rampart]

you can't

if you have hip + 2 on the locatino of the elbow, it still thinks they're feet trackers.

unless trackers now support SteamVR assignments

if that's the case---that explains it and I'll have to switch that in the controller config

[river wyvern]

you set them to disabled to stop that from happening

[river wyvern]

lock hip mode I'll try other modes now

[oak pendant]

also "lock all" is almost guaranteed to give some strange neck or spine crunching. It doesn't try to play nice with the tracking data and just forces both the hip and spine into position.

[final sphinx]

the new iks amazing

but my arms are dragging behind the viewpoint, like a bit delayed?

[minor rampart]

it does allow you to reallyyy get that hunchback/slump look like you just got up and didn't have your coffee though

[autumn junco]

So is this beta staying up all the way until release?

[oak pendant]

Yeah, in general the plan for this live compatible beta is to make the new IK available to everyone to use daily even though it's not in the live release yet

[autumn junco]

Thats cool

I dance alot in vrc so i will definitely benefit from this

[river wyvern]

@oak pendant all modes have stiffness in the hips I can show you in game if your on atm

lock head had some weird crunch going on as well

[oak pendant]

Can't easily get in at the moment, but if you can take a video comparing that would be helpful. Also mention if you perceive rotational or positional stiffness

[deep osprey]

you should be making bug reports in the canny https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20

[river wyvern]

I am going to be Im trying to compile everything into one instead of making a lot of cannys

[river wyvern]

yeah making the video comparision too did you want the lock in positions recorded as well?

[oak pendant]

Lots of issues if they're unrelated in one canny make it harder for people to vote and comment on

[frosty loom]

Please only keep related issues to the same canny instead of packing them all into one giant thread

[deep osprey]

that's not really useful in my opinion, different problems might need different amount of attention

[viscid hatch]

I'm already writing an issue on the proportions going out of whack

[river wyvern]

oh so each indiviual tracking issue? Im only testing the tracking issues thats all

[oak pendant]

Yeah, please show how it performs in different lock modes

[river wyvern]

thats most likely due to it not being lined up to your IRL scales. I just tested that its not a one size fit all unfortunately

[river wyvern]

alrighty done deal

I'll also give you guys a copy of the rig as well and include it in the canny

[viscid hatch]

My avatar is proportionate and my height is already set correctly. The issue is with the new ik being enabled

Every avatar I tried broke

[brazen condor]

https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/feet-under-the-floor

Feet under floor canny made

[river wyvern]

are you 6 or 10 point?

[viscid hatch]

6 point

[oak pendant]

There are likely two issues, if the floor height is consistently wrong, I need to look into that I think. However avatar proportions are probably you just noticing that the world/avatar scale associated with a given User Real Height setting is different now. Start out with your IRL value, but depending on the proportions of your avatar you may then need to break away from the IRL value to set the scaling how you're used to feeling it. In general you'd likely need to increase User Real Height, compared to legacy to achieve the same scaling

[viscid hatch]

I'll try messing with the height more and see if it fixes anything

[devout current]

hmmm with the new Ik and locked to hip, my chest is dented way more in

[viscid hatch]

I increased the IRL height by a ton and managed to get everything lined up. Only issue was that my avatar's feet were in the floor so I all had to do was move my playspace up a bit and everything worked fine.

[thorny oriole]

new ik, I like this

[viscid hatch]

I'll post a video of what I mean if it helps at all

or should I link the video on the canny post instead?

[maiden rock]

@oak pendant works first time, default settings, all 10 point tracking

admittedly I am still using legacy calbiration

[brazen condor]

<,<'

What happens with the new calibration?

[oak pendant]

If the avatar's rest pose has a hard angle in the spine, the new IK will use that angle as slack and will likely straighten it out. This is fixable by avatar creators by not having a lot of "slack" in the spine, but if this is a consistent problem that can't be fixed by moving the spine joints more in line (or that doing that doesn't work because of the avatar's shape or weight painting issues etc) then please make a canny so we can track it

[oak pendant]

Avatar scale calculation is different, start out with your IRL user real height, and then adjust if needed to proportionally fit the avatar

[devout current]

okay, I'll try out the latest version of the rexouium and if it still happens

[brazen condor]

No no I meant to ask Toweh why they used the old one

Do you think the height adjustment will fix the feet situation?

[viscid hatch]

It did for me at least

[brazen condor]

Hrm let me give that a shot

[oak pendant]

It may or may not, if it can't be fixed then it's a bug I think. I'll be doing some extra testing myself to see if there's an inherent problem with the floor height. (Of course I'm not used to just dragging my height in OVRAS all the time, of course I would have noticed such an issue sooner.. 😅 )

But gotta be sure it's actually an issue and not just people being surprised that different User Real Height values result in different world scales now

Canny on it here to post your findings: https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/feet-under-the-floor

[real bane]

curious on how my avatars will react as I never change my height, using IRL height and never have to adjust height after calibrating

[oak pendant]

Depending on the length of your avatar's neck bone there will be more or less difference between old IK scaling, (new method is more consistent across avatars of various neck bone lengths)

but likely your avatar will feel smaller

[brazen condor]

Tried the height fix across 3 avatars (Known good proportioned) (Standard human) (Default bot), no dice for the floor feet

[oak pendant]

if you've iteratively fit it against the old IK you may need to use a higher than IRL value to get the old behavior

[brazen condor]

If I had to guess it almost looks like it guesses the bottom of the avatar is too high

[real bane]

@oak pendant I see, I will do some testing later tonight!

[brazen condor]

Also Kung, dear gosh this will be an exciting night for you, best of luck Salute

[oak pendant]

Thanks for testing, make sure your findings are documented in canny

[brazen condor]

Already added >.O

You gotta put all this stuff in one place or it will be lost in the depths of discord

[zealous ruin]

Do you need elbow trackers for Headset only? :o

[flint yew]

the worst part of this update is the fact that pairing more than like 4 trackers is quite literally the bane of my fucking existence

[real bane]

I am staying FBT with out elbow and knees but do have enough trackers for elbows or knees but not both

[dark silo]

Okay, lock head is capital B Broken for most of my avatars

[brazen condor]

Perhaps some sort of sensing mechanism to tell if you have knee/elbow trackers from the TPose

[dark silo]

and lock all is... janky in its own ways

BUT

[brazen condor]

Funny enough I actually observed lock all worked fine for me

[oak pendant]

Screenshots in a canny will help.

[brazen condor]

I think the closer your avatar is to your IRL body and the less jank its bones, the better it looks

Ye document what sort of jank is going on, so we have seperate threads for each break

[real bane]

@brazen condor That is encouraging, only problem I may have my elbows are alight bend when calibrated but I have not change any of my avatars in so long.

[dark silo]

lock head/all fix the bug where your hip shifts (locally) every time you move with locomotion disabled

I will not be silenced BOT

I am so happy

[oak pendant]

Nice, yeah the issue there is that if your head/view isn't aligned it will line it up during locomotion. Lock Hip (meaning head is unlocked) allows the head to be offset, thus the jump when you locomote. The other modes already have the head perfectly aligned so no hitch on locomotion

[viscid hatch]

I posted a video of the proportion issue on the canny post

[carmine gate]

10-point with KinectToVR

Knees are meh, but I only tried one avatar, they looked way more expressive in SteamVR than they did in VRChat.

Elbows lag a tiny tiny bit behind, unless we could add prediction, not much that can be done. But they're otherwise super awesome, like way way better than I thought.

[oak pendant]

Ah I see, so playspace moving was required for your fix. Likely then it's a bug, we gotta support users who don't install a playspace mover

[viscid hatch]

Reminds me of the old days of vrc fbt where you'd have to fake your user height and use playspace

good times

[carmine gate]

the wild west

[digital grove]

kung, 13 point tracking when

[tight aurora]

I wonder what aughip would look like on the IK beta

[carmine gate]

whats the extra 3?

[digital grove]

shoulders and chest

[carmine gate]

oh yeah, I immediatly wanted shoulders the moment I tried elbows

[void lintel]

imagine shrugging in vr with shoulders

[digital grove]

[tawdry glen]

Might as well track every humanoid bone at that point.

[void lintel]

cat ear tracking

[digital grove]

individual rib tracking

[oak crow]

okay this is SO MUCH BETTER

[fiery plinth]

neck movement seems rather expressive with neck and hips locked, what can i do to the neck bone to make it... less

err head

off to testing!

[oak pendant]

(Assuming you don't use the legacy calibration command line arg) You can look down slightly while you bind in. I'd say maybe 10~20 degrees down from horizontal. This will lower your HMD relative to your hip when you bind, when you look straight again it will tighten your spine and lessen neck movement if you'd prefer it to be less "expressive"

[final sphinx]

Asking again, the delayed hands-after-viewpoint/head is known right

[digital grove]

what'cha talkin'bout willis

[whole glacier]

The new beta update is great.

[final sphinx]

like when i put my finger on my viewpoint on the quest and moved my head the hands movement wasnt in sync with the hmd / delayed for around half a second / dragging behind

and i even used touch controllers

[oak pendant]

I'm not sure, I'd want to see some video. I think it warrants a canny post if you can

[final sphinx]

ill do it tomorrow

[oak pendant]

thanks 👍

[whole glacier]

The avatars body is much more aligned with my own. 🙂

Although it makes it much more aperient that the chest seems to be bound rotationally to the waist.

[placid gale]

Litrally just got fbt today and this gets announced, pog

[minor rampart]

I mean, the chest doesn't have much rotational ability on its own, IRL, so.

[whole glacier]

mine does 🙂

[river wyvern]

Is there any special naming conventions with the canny posts I need to be aware of or can I just bracket it. I'll put a circle on the video areas where theres issues

[finite basin]

Thanks for showing me this world! After a full reinstall of vrchat, my avatar is now working fine with the beta IK, but is having that odd hip behavior with "legacy IK" selected, this is a bit strange, as before the most recent live update, the avatar was working fine. Maybe you have accidently committed some IK code into live(non beta) there by accident during the IK work. I can just run the beta for now, so no issues for me, thanks for the ideas!

Beta IK is the first one without the hip rotation, second one with hip rotation is the "Legacy IK"

[whole glacier]

if I only rotate my hips (IRL) my chest also rotates (in game).

[oak pendant]

As long as you post it here it should be ok. If you want to bracket if it's [Bug] or [Request] etc that helps at a glance https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20

[river wyvern]

alrighty thank you

[oak pendant]

To be sure that "legacy" is different from the Live release, please test again after switching away from the beta branch in steam. If the behavior is different then please document it on canny

[elfin sleet]

Would you say the legacy calibration is / isn’t good to combine with the new IK? I personally prefer the static t-pose over the “floaty” feeling of the newer calibration, but if you think it’ll cause issues, I might swap

[oak pendant]

This is one of the use cases for a chest tracker, if you'd like to see that, please make a request on canny. I'd be interested in how many other people would express interest in it

[finite basin]

So both live and beta "Legacy" are the same, the difference is live before the OSC update my hips where not doing the rotation. I only just noticed this now as I did not participate in the OSC beta.

Im thinking that some sort of IK related update in the OSC update caused this issue.

Just letting you know! Thanks for being such awesome and open devs about these things!

[digital grove]

yes please

[oak pendant]

We don't explicitly support the legacy calibration (command line) but we also aren't going out of our way to remove it. If it works for you that's great. If you do find an issue feel free to report on canny because I'd like to know about it, but we might not devote dev time to it because it's a hold-over legacy thing. However if there's a necessary use case that can't be solved any other way, I'd want to know about that too and we can see how the issue can be solved in general

[elfin sleet]

Okay, thanks, that’s good to hear - I’ll be testing the new IK later tonight, so if I run into any issues, I’ll be sure to make a canny post

[icy ferry]

i did a bit of testing with new ik and honestly overall it's great. i don't really have much input aside from what others are talking about, such as the feet sinking, so i'd say that's pretty good. i'm sure i'll notice small issues over time, but so far it feels so much better. the viewpoint feels so much more consistent and the chest rotations are so much more smooth. i love it so far.

[digital grove]

and also shoulders (13 point)

[kindred acorn]

I can't cross my arms in the new IK. Arms IRL are parallel, and they show up as that in legacy (and before the update). It feels as if the chest "area" that the elbows are now avoiding is too big and pushes them away when it shouldn't. Might be avatar specific, haven't tested much cause 2am but I'll see if I can get better insights tomorrow.

(the elbows in the image are too far "forward", towards the camera, not just too high up)

[oak pendant]

in general it has to push it pretty far forward to avoid clipping during this pose, but still good to document issues you find (on canny) so thanks. The new elbow prediction is mostly intended to look good to outside observers, if it matches your IRL elbows that's just lucky/bonus

[kindred acorn]

I'll open a canny once I get better pictures/check other avatars

[brazen condor]

If thats the intention, it definitely has that

It looks more natural at the expense of accuracy, but I think thats a fair trade (Expecially now that you can just have elbow trackers)

Is there any word on if the legacy/new IK will remain togglable after beta? Is it a local only IK calculation change or something more worrysome?

[digital grove]

it was never accurate due to the arms going inside your body, but I guess the only way to make it accurate is with elbow tracking

more tracking is always better

so 13 point tracking pls

[brazen condor]

Do shoulders have that issue?

From my understanding this sort of prediction issues happen if there are more than 2 bones between the joint. Its why Knees are more accurate than elbows

With elbows in theory shoulders should be reasonably interpreted

[digital grove]

knees are particularly noticeable when dancing, so this update is great, but shoulders and chest would make it even better

[oak pendant]

The legacy toggle is planned to stay (at least for now) after release

[brazen condor]

Chest would make the spine bend more clear

Is anyone currently documenting the elbows/knee tracker priority issues?

I was thinking about making the Canny since I can write one relatively clearly

[digital grove]

what'cha talkin'bout willis

[brazen condor]

I mean if you only have 5 trackers, and you wanna track elbows or knees rather than just the one your stuck at

[kindred acorn]

in that particular pose I'm holding they didn't go inside the body before either, and now they are "floating" above it with a gap - I personally think the old behaviour looks better in this case, regardless of accuracy to IRL positions

[brazen condor]

3 (Head hands) + 3 (Feet + Waist) + 2 (Elbows) + 2 (Knees)

From my understanding your stuck in that progression

If you wanna do Knees with 8 trackers it wouldn't work

(Correct me if I'm wrong)

I think someone was asking if there could be a way to toggle 8 point tracking between knees and elbows

[digital grove]

did you read the patch notes?

there's a toggle for that as far as I understand

[brazen condor]

I believe so, let me review

[digital grove]

wait no I think I misread

the patch notes say (knees)

[brazen condor]

I do not see a toggle, it implies Knees comes before elbows

[digital grove]

indeed

[brazen condor]

Ye all good no worries

@oak pendant Curious, how exactly is the different tracking points implemented

Is it a different build for each (3) (6) (8) (10) or is it parametrized where you just say which bones you wanna bind to what

[strong nova]

https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/feedback-toggle-6-locomotion-walk-animation-sliding

TL;DR toggle walk anim

[brazen condor]

I agree the walking animation needs to be togglable in menu it does look... very wonky for FBT users

I think it got moved out of Ik-2 since its not really an IK issue though

[devout current]

you know there is https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20 for this beta right?

[strong nova]

Wait what?

Oh.

[brazen condor]

But this isn't for that beta

The walking animation isn't an IK issue

So don't put it there

[strong nova]

Wait, I forgor to read the notes for this beta. My bad.

[brazen condor]

Kung just moved a canny out for that very issue

[rose beacon]

you dont need dedicated shoulder trackers, having a tracker on the uper arm is enough to calculate both elbow position and shoulder position.

[brazen condor]

"Need"

[rose beacon]

yes

"need"

lol

[strong nova]

https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/feedback-toggle-6-locomotion-walk-animation-sliding

[brazen condor]

Noooo

[wintry bluff]

So, Would I have to reupload my avatar with this new IK or it going to be automatically applied

[warm lintel]

To join the beta do I just set it to beta in steam or something?

[digital grove]

two people just commented on how you can't shrug in vrchat

[brazen condor]

Kung just moved one of those canny's out, that isn't an IK issue

[oak pendant]

two separate things, one was for a toggle for all animation, that's just a AV3 feature request, the other is for the changes to default walking animation that comes with this build, that one is related and stays

[brazen condor]

Thats a AV3 issue

oooooh

ok nvm

[oak pendant]

anyway, I need to afk for about an hour but I'll keep an eye on stuff in here

if you want to be sure I see something though.. canny!

[brazen condor]

Salutes

[rose beacon]

ah, thats an ik issue.

[brazen condor]

Well in theory with elbow trackers you can

[digital grove]

which is solved by tracking the shoulders and chest

[brazen condor]

Its the 2 bones between the hands and head that fuck that up

If its just one between elbows and head in theory it would be more accurate

I couldn't comment on if a chest would help, idk the ik that well

[digital grove]

ik is fine and good, but it has limitations, which are solved by tracking more points