wydm isn't that what the state behavior does?
#avatar-general
upper remnant
modest sun
But it is... that's what the VRCAnimatorRemeasureAvatar and VRCAnimatorTemporaryPoseSpace are for
Hmm laying down normally without sitting in a station?
neon finch
yeah, you know how when you sit or lay down the viewball doesn't actually follow the head, it tends to sink down? when using fbt
neon finch
it doesnt seem to have ever been fixed and i havent tried 3.0, i was checking if anyone had tried to tackle it using any 3.0 stuff
wintry glade
The view point drifting when lowering is usually caused by the rig
Doesnt match up with you IRL, not much the devs can do to fix it as you need rigidity somewhere
fluid grotto
As of 3.0, having an Upper chest bone has only benifits and no downsides, since eye tracking and blinking now still work with it present. Having an extra bone along the backbone might help give it the flex it needs to hit the head target more often? All my avatars have upper chest and full body laying down always seemed fine. But my avatars are also scaled to me.
wintry glade
I think another bone can only do good there, wasnt the only problem with the upper chest the eye tracking problem?
fluid grotto
Yep, it stopped internal blink and eye tracking, and as of 3.0, it doesn't
Will be a while before people get over the "upper chest bad" mindset
Even in regular non-FBT VR, it curves the spine a bit smoother when you lean to the side
sturdy smelt
yea eye tracking now is gud, will just work with any bone you put in there, whether its parented to the head or not
wintry glade
Give me a bit while I search anatomical references of the flexibility of the thoracic cavity. I've treated it as inflexible due to only having the chest bone
"When ribs are done cooking, they're flexible but don't fall apart. To check, hold the rack from the end with a pair of tongs."
fluid grotto
It doesn’t bend a lot, but those discs there aren’t useless. Each bone bends very little. But together they arc
That’s why you have ribs, so they can bend
wintry glade
I'll have to look into where I can put the bones then, just trying to keep it realistic looking with only 3 bones
with 2 it was just up to the rib cage and then the cage was static
Easiest is probably the chest up to the true ribs?
fluid grotto
When you have an upper chest the idea is that hips spine chest and upper chest are all about equal lengths, 1/4th of the torso each
wintry glade
I just feel like that will result in weird stretching is all
The model in question has an exposed rib cage, I'd assume that a skinned model wouldnt suffer as much at all
deft lodge
think if you are upgrading just put it on top of the one you already have without removing it
fluid grotto
If you already have 3.0 you update on top of itself yes. If you are currently on 2.0, delete it the old way first
teal path
Ill back up the previous version just in case I guess
deft lodge
always should just in case haha
fluid grotto
@wintry glade the chest-upperchest joint doesn’t bend a lot compared to the hip-spine, and spine-chest. It’s subtle, but it does help
Looks great with all 4 equal lengths, you can tell most of the bend is in the lower part of the torso, and gets more rigid with each joint
teal path
Sooo full body ik better?
wintry glade
Alright thanks for the info, I'll do it on my skinned models first and see the results, extracts usually come with a ton of spine bones anyways
From what I heard it's slightly worse? Only thing we're talking about rn is how we dont need to omit a bone to get eye tracking to work
fluid grotto
I only see more accurate tracking
Head loses target less
Probably because the backbone can curve with you when you are hunched over
wintry glade
Yeah to be honest I havent even booted the beta in VR, only desktop to bug test
fluid grotto
No new change with 3.0 in terms of upper chest IK. It’s the same as live just blinking works
neon finch
the booth avatar i use doesn't have an upper chest bone, that'll be rough to add...
fluid grotto
I think it’ll mostly show up in new avatars. There differences aren’t important enough to re-weight paint stuff, I think.
It’s not just splitting the chest bone you kind of want them sized equally
So it’s a lot of work for little gain
I’m actually not updating my avatars to 3.0 yet, I’m just adding the closed_eyes shape key for afk and the four mood shape keys that give you a free two axis puppet on 2.0
Beta SDK will potentially change a lot before release, no use updating everything early
That’s a lot of animators to fix if they do anything major
sand wren
almost all avatars ive seen people use in 3.0 have this spine bending issue in fullbody which is very annoying lol
also i need to replace my afk animations bc the default is annoying
teal path
So when updating the sdk
do I make sure everything is checked
or do I just leave everything thats unchecked the way it is
sand wren
what is unchecked
if u mean updating to the new av3 sdk just leave it as is
and hit import
teal path
kk
sand wren
if coming from an older sdk like sdk2 use the old process, but not for sdk3 avatars3
teal path
is the version number supposed to still be the same
gilded delta
So to be able to use Avatar 3.0, do I just download the up to date VRCSDK2 and VRCSDK3 or something?
silver crow
can someone help me I have a sdk error?
modest sun
show screenshot of console window with errors
austere rose
a benefic of having upperchest. when you lean forward your character will be lower then you irl if the spine is to low. but with 4 bone in the chain. your character have a more natural curve and the view point should match better.
real patrol
concept: i make my avatars explode whenver I say boomer
silver adder
So Upper Chest isn't bugged anymore in AV3?
Hmm, i might have to try that then. I'm getting some clipping issues with the shoulders on my avatar with it's animations from Blender, wonder if that would fix it.
real patrol
I didn't even think we could use upper chest
modest sun
Upper chest has been fine for a whike
The only thing was that using upper chest prevented the automatic eye rotation from working
And that's all redone in av3
fluid grotto
Yes, there's no longer any downside to using upper chest in SDK3
I've been using it a while on live since I use shader eyetracking anyway
it slightly improves your head in sync with your view position
when doing weird poses
silver adder
Dang, i removed the upper chest bone from the model i imported. Guess I'll have to redo it to take advantage of that.
visual dagger
New tutorial video showing a clothes changing setup using buttons, toggles, sub-menus and parameter drivers! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ICQ8lRXIVc
silver adder
Ah, the classic moment of "something is wrong" just after you think everything is setup correctly. Even more funny when other people see it in public lobbies.
visual dagger
never a dull moment
silver adder
Wasn't nothing too crazy this time tho, just my AFK animation causing me to sink into the floor. I got that fixed tho.
austere rose
hello
visual dagger
hi
prisma atlas
question, are the new vive wand gestures whats gonna be permanent for the future?
like how thumbs up just doesnt exist anymore
silver adder
Pretty sure thumbs up being unusable is not intended.
prisma atlas
ok thats good to know
neon finch
whats the difference between av2 and av3, we get more animations now?
Avatar descriptor is full changed
visual dagger
basically the entire animation system is replaced
sonic spade
really wished they would have added self sitting chairs
visual dagger
like, fixed sitting height for short characters?
sonic spade
no i mean, being able to sit on your own avatar chairs
wintry glade
God forbid 😔
restive rivet
whats the difference between av2 and av3, we get more animations now?
@neon finch Instead of filling a list of animation replacements, we get a new menu that lets us utilitze the full potential of Unity animators. That means making conditions and storing values, as many submenus as you want, inventory systems, etc.
Oh also eye tracking doesn't require you to perform witchcraft anymore
Because what the fuck was the previous method
really wished they would have added self sitting chairs
What would be the purpose tho? It would just anchor you to... yourself?
wintry glade
It would allow you to manipulate your position. Which allows smooth flight and things like flipping yourself upside down
Merlin did a ironman jetpack system with springs IIRC
modest sun
combined with control over the avatar animator, it might allow fairly complex flight systems
imagine using a puppet in each hand to fly an airplane
wintry glade
I just wanna stick to the ceiling
modest sun
Though you can still build this stuff, but someone else has to sit on you
av3 does make it really easy to desync stuff intentionally, so it may be easier to build this type of system than it used to. the restriction just means you need a second "alt account" in the room so you can legally sit on each other
and indeed, Merlin is still able to fly around iron man style by joining a second account, it's just tedious, wastes a slot in the room, requires a powerful CPU and takes out a good chunk of the fun
All that said, Udon allows these systems to be built
restive rivet
Oh yeah it makes sense now
wintry glade
Udon is world specific though, would obviously be better to just have it on the avatar
fluid grotto
@wintry glade I’m making a monument valley world I’m just super lazy with art
wintry glade
When I look up monument valley I just get a desert in Arizona. I don't understand what that has to do with flipping an avatar upside down with self chairs
fluid grotto
Add the word game lol
wintry glade
That's a lot more topical
sturdy smelt
just type game after
wintry glade
Still, I don't think that being able to do something with Udon is good enough to not want it on avatars
fluid grotto
True. Though raycasting from avatars to the world would also be real nice
I still can’t wrap my head around avatars that sit on themselves. Wouldn’t you just feedback loop into the sky?
wintry glade
I dont know as I didnt partake in the short time period that we could have seats. But from my friends opinions it was fine
Also what do you mean by raycasting from avatars to worlds? You can do that with Grounders
fluid grotto
From an avatar?
wintry glade
What are you trying to raycast?
fluid grotto
The floor and space in front of me to detect a wall
dapper hearth
Generally sitting on your own seats would enable mounts
fluid grotto
Basically I’m trying to know when I’m about to walk off an edge or run into a wall
wintry glade
Yeah Adeon just use a Grounder on a CCDIK elbow joint and it will stretch til it hits a surface or a max limit you've set
fluid grotto
This probably isn’t an avatar 3 topic
wintry glade
Not anymore lol
fluid grotto
I wish we could set the value of stage parameters to arbitrary things like the result of a component like that
wintry glade
You might be able to with AV3 but I havent played with it yet. Can always do particle trigger death
sonic spade
to know if you are about to run off an ledge/hit a wall?
are you trying to make a Roomba?
burnt flax
it ok. i building a tiger from part 🙂
fluid grotto
I think the stage parameters only get values set from the expressions menu or the system.
burnt flax
however, i think menu got broken in the update
fluid grotto
If a random animation sets the value of a stage parameter, is it still syched?
burnt whale
@burnt flax wait are you the guy that made the tiger avatar
burnt flax
no. it is free to use and he let people custom
chrome obsidian
is there any av3.0 avatar worlds?
fluid grotto
Just the one linked in Tupper's info channel
public avatar 3.0 woulds would just confuse people why all of them are error bots
upper remnant
technically all worlds are avatar 3.0 worlds
neon finch
Do you think the SDK is close enough that we could start working on avatars for a new world when it eventually goes live?
Or is there still too many variables that wouldn't be fixed by reuploading under the new SDK when it does go live.
fluid grotto
I'm counting on the default layers updating before live comes out, so if OCD you'd have to put your custom layers on the new copies..
I'm not doing any mass conversions yet
neon finch
upper remnant
@neon finch this is a quote from hackspanner
"this is a beta. I can tell you right now that we are very likely to break every current av3 avatar before release."
so maybe avoid converting many, many avatars, unless you are confident in your workflow
upper remnant
yeah
teal path
Only fixes I really need are safety and animations
upper remnant
it's coming. also, your video was shared with hackspanner re: the animations and net IK scuff
rotund harness
h*ck yes
teal path
igbar lmao
rotund harness
the network IK scuff is awful, I was concerned it was gonna go to live. Here's hoping it gets fixed
teal path
Btw im working on the facials for my kon now, got any suggestions?
rotund harness
Kon comes with pretty much all the expressions you need tho, I can't imagine you need anything more
teal path
Yeahh
its a shame it didnt come with a few more options tho
for example the >.< eyes
fluid grotto
Does anyone else seem to be seeing more crashes when you are idling without the headset being worn, compared to live?
teal path
I have not even tried 3.0 in vr yet
fluid grotto
okay thanks :-)
fluid grotto
But yeah I don't crash in VR. It seems exclusive to being afk
teal path
Oh you mean on desktop?
fluid grotto
In VR, but not wearing headset
teal path
ah
fluid grotto
Come back and VRC gone
teal path
Thats odd
fluid grotto
About to, was just seeing if it was heard of first
sturdy smelt
Not sure, I've been in my steam menu for a while in beta and that's supposed to put you in afk mode too
verbal forum
what are avatars 3.0
neon finch
#avatar-development-links
A new SDK and overhaul to vrchat avatars
silver adder
Existing avatars will work as-is in the new system. They just won't have any of the new features.
verbal forum
how do u tell what avatars are 3.0
visual dagger
easiest way to tell right now, if you aren't using the av3 beta branch of the game, you can't see them 😉
burnt whale
can you play with friend av3
pulsar lagoon
As long as you're both in the beta branch, yeah.
silver adder
There are also some public lobbies in the world linked in #730973243904753705.
pulsar lagoon
I think the social menu shows everyone regardless of build though, so communicate ahead of time before accepting invites, because you won't actually see them if they're not in the same build
oak mason
@teal path I actually think I remember seeing an additonal emotes pack for Kon on Booth at some point, and it had ><
teal path
yeah
soft crown
@opaque sequoia so you ran into the same problem after more testing? it looked like it worked well in your example vid but i guess it was hard to ultimately tell since your knees were slightly bent already
opaque sequoia
It seems specific to using FBT. It isn't by much either but it is definitely caused by using Animator Remeasure Avatar.
Even if you don't change scale and just reset it bumps you up ever so slightly.
silver adder
Heh, i can tell someone liked my avatar. Got a thumbs up of approval.
soft crown
hm, mine seems pretty extreme. like my viewball is pretty equal with my eyes, but i scale down to .5 then my eyes are above my head and my knees are bent with the feet slightly floating up in the air
did try it on a diff avatar and had a similar issue, ill try with some others
opaque sequoia
Although I am getting the problem with the feet lifting up, I'm not seeing the viewpoint rising up at all.
soft crown
feet rising up seems to happen if i scale up too
opaque sequoia
wait your knees are bending?
soft crown
from the feet lifting up, i presume
opaque sequoia
Ok I am seeing that a small bit
All seems to be caused by something with Animator Remeasure Avatar though.
soft crown
ye
ill post some examples of my holding my hand right below my headset
in #avatar-help since this dont allow images
candid forum
so i'm just curious if it's worth it for someone like me, a dork who isnt very good at this avatar setting up and script stuffs, is it worth it for me to try and learn av3.0 now or should i simply wait for full release when stuff is fixed?
and how long do you think it would take for someone with a very low iq (also me) to get this stuff setup XD
silver adder
The UI is drunk rn. It shows 5 people in a public session on the test world, but there is only one other person here.
Maybe people are in the world on the wrong build?
atomic blade
@candid forum Since most of the features of AV3 are unity and not SDK dependent, you will have a much bigger information and tutorial base to work from
candid forum
o i see
well once i'm done with this new avatar i'm trying out then i'll attempt stuff
silver adder
Not sure if this is related to the AV3 build or not but, for some reason my favorites list isn't updating when i add something...
The UI will say it's favorited, but the favorites list doesn't update.
Relogging didn't fix it either.
Yeah, this is a bug. The favorited avatars list WILL update when you expand it and try to click and drag on it, but not the favorited worlds list.
silver adder
What's up with all the Animal Crossing avatars all of a sudden?
Nothing against it of course, just curious. Seen an increase in them since Wunder's K.K Slider.
sand wren
ppl prob trying to make them sing like mine
tardy solstice
I can't figure out where the Avatars 3.0 SDK is...
solemn glacier
#avatar-development-links first link (top)
tardy solstice
Ah, thank you. I was started halfway down, so I didn't see those
silver adder
@silver adder I was in your lobby, cool avatar.
@valid patrol Oh, were you that Animal Crossing avatar? (Don't know the name of that character).
valid patrol
Yeah, its one of the many villagers in the game you can get, makes sense to not know their names. (almost 400)
silver adder
Was that full-body you were using? That tracking was impressive considering the models proportions.
valid patrol
No, im too poor for fbt, im using a wmr and its actually quite poor tracking
its been really jitter recently
silver adder
Yeah, i noticed your arms spazzing out every once in a while. But the legs moved really smoothly.
valid patrol
thats just how vrchat works
silver adder
Meanwhile, i don't even have VR. I'm just a desktop player...
valid patrol
Cant run VR or cant afford?
silver adder
Both.
silver adder
My Radeon RX 570 would cry if i ran anything in VR. And i can't afford it anyways.
valid patrol
VR is too expensive right now
silver adder
But i get a (mostly) locked 90fps in desktop mode depending on the world and how many players are nearby.
I don't see myself going down the WMR route, i would rather get a used Rift S.
valid patrol
Yeah, wmr has pretty bad tracking, I only got one because it was 200$
silver adder
But yeah, seeing those thumbs up emoji coming my way put a smile on my face.
valid patrol
silver adder
I'm just using Dark Samus as a test dummy for AV3 stuff.
Speaking of which, did the shaders look right on your end? The model has custom shaders.
valid patrol
I might have turned them off
silver adder
I haven't gotten to test if they fall back correctly yet.
valid patrol
what did they look like?
valid patrol
Yes, it had dark samus' textures
silver adder
Phew. That's a relief, hadn't gotten to test if the shaders were falling back correctly for people that have shaders disabled.
The shaders were supposed to replicate her appearance from Metroid Prime 3.
So, lots of scrolling emissive effects.
I noticed you didn't seem to like Excalibur Umbra tho.
I didn't make that one tho, found it in a Warframe themed world.
teal path
Man I hope they fix fullbody soon
Meanwhile im working on putting more life into my models faces!
teal path
I love the amount of freedom I now have with 3.0
tardy solstice
I just wish I knew how to do any of that animation stuff. I can't even figure out Avatar Masks
woven goblet
You should watch this one then @tardy solstice https://youtu.be/1dMoRECcstQ
tardy solstice
But how do you add it to an Animator Controller layer? That's what I need to know cuz the AV3 tutorial says that, for gestures, it requires a mask on the base layer. I've already made the mask, but I have no idea what to do with it now that it's made
woven goblet
Click the cog wheel on the layer you want to have it on
There you’ll see a mask field
upper remnant
@tardy solstice I think the example gesture controller already has a mask
You could also generate your gestures and look at the animator afterwards
With hai's gesture setup script
@tardy solstice also the mask itself goes in the layer options
I'm surprised the docs don't show exactly where to put a mask
tardy solstice
Yeah, they seem to be for people who already know their stuff or something...
visual dagger
the docs fully assume you know how to use unity for animation
rotund harness
there's already a lot of documentation on unity's side of things at least, so it's not too bad
tardy solstice
I've only ever used Unity to port models to VRChat avatars and the only animation thing I messed with is the one with the timeline
tardy solstice
I've also been seeing this thing about "Viseme Parameters" but searching for it doesn't teach me how to use it to make my 2D lipsync work better, just the basic overview of "It's an integer and the number refers to which viseme." Yeah, I get that, but how do I make it address a certain animation? I haven't ever messed with the inner workings of animator controllers, I only input my animations into the old gesture override controller
teal path
people have been using voice control
so I assume theres a way to convert visemes to values
tardy solstice
This is one of the main reasons I wanted to try AV3.0, since I should also be able to work with non-2D mouths that are all on different meshes like what Nintendo does a lot
teal path
which could then be used to for example shift a texture
tardy solstice
Voice control?
teal path
basically
a few people I know made it so if a specific viseme follows anpther and then another
it plays an animation
so using visemes for changing a 2d texture or a mesh would work
but tbh have no clue how
sand wren
i shifted textures using that
upper remnant
@tardy solstice you make an animator that uses the viseme parameter values to transition
sand wren
thats how i do visemes on my animal crossing avatar
i just move the UVs on the texture
upper remnant
If you've made any animator that transitions with parameter conditions, it's the same thing
tardy solstice
... I'm an absolute complete and utter noob at everything Unity except for slapping a model into a scene and hitting "Build and Publish"
upper remnant
You should probably watch state machine tutorials
sand wren
better to learn about how to work with unity than have someone else send u a finished file and not have any idea how to fix / work with it
i had no idea what to do with av3.0 either but after 2 days i mastered it
took like 50 test uploads tho
teal path
same mostly
upper remnant
Yeah it's not a lot on top of a prior existing base of unity knowledge
tardy solstice
I'm not asking for a finished file, I'm asking for explanations of exactly what I'm having problems with cuz a lot of Unity "tutorials" are very short explanations followed by lines of code
teal path
only animators... a lot of animators
sand wren
theres shaders but those dont count
upper remnant
Well, sometimes unity tutorials include scripting
tardy solstice
Everything I find that's directly from Unity has long lines of code in it
teal path
not for vrc
upper remnant
As they're not all made for vrc
teal path
unless udon
teal path
udon has scripting
tardy solstice
Even the link the AV3.0 tutorial links to for talking about parameters is very short and ends in lines of code
sand wren
bc
teal path
why... the any state?
upper remnant
honestly we should find a video to link people about unity animators, that suffices
sand wren
if u ever read the top of the document
it literally says it expects u 2 know about how those components work already
teal path
Why did you use the any state
sand wren
so u need to read about the components separately
tardy solstice
Yes, videos would work so much better than text
sand wren
because Any State is good
and better than making 200+ transitions between every possible state
u will learn this quickly when doing gestures
teal path
but for a toggle?
tardy solstice
The text doesn't help me visualize what I need to be doing in the slightest
sand wren
then wait for av3 to come out of beta
teal path
why would you... add more to a toggle?
sand wren
i really dont know what else to tell you
because its not a toggle
its an outfit selector
can u stop questioning something obvious lol
sand wren
also av3 is still in very early beta
so there will likely not be any tutorials
until av3 finally releases on the live build
teal path
well there is
sand wren
bc of how much can and will change
ye but tutorials now can go out of date within like a month
and not as in depth as they could be
upper remnant
@teal path the one dislike on that video 😠
sand wren
maybe 2 months
thats being generous though
they had a pretty long closed testing phase
sand wren
theres a lot of bugs right now that need to be fixed beforehand
upper remnant
Phrasing
sand wren
mostly issues with fullbody
sand wren
and some shader problems too
a lot of people including me are extremely confused as to why our shaders are breaking
teal path
the ik animations
teal path
hope you made a canny then
sand wren
i will see about it
upper remnant
Safety system, net IK and non-puppet animations, FBT issues, and controller input issues, these are the outstanding bits of feedback I hear
1 and 2 are coming, and 4 too, but idk about 3
teal path
reminder that that could also be the map
sand wren
on my clones theyre not
i doubt this because other people report shader problems also
someone else reported their dissolve shader wasnt working properly when someone else sees it
similar issue
they werent in tuppers world
teal path
yeah but maybe i hope theyll at least pull an udon and integrate it into live while its not yet completely done
sand wren
chances are they will once they fix fbt bugs
teal path
well its basically one fbt bug
sand wren
there are issues with FBT bending the spine for no reason at all making the character look like theyre thrusting the air
teal path
same
sand wren
scaling the avatar causes FBT drift
sand wren
ye the update they made for viewpoints was one of the last ones they did before going public
or at least ive heard
teal path
i swear if theyll make us redo our armatures instead of fixing the issue
im not fixing 50 models
sand wren
im pretty sure its just a bug on their side
almost every avatar ive uploaded and seen people use has this bug
including sdk2 avatars in av3.0
teal path
well the person doing the scaling
didnt appear to have said issue
they were in fullbody
sand wren
its random i guess when it happens
that or sometimes unnoticable
i think maybe it has to do with where the viewpoint is on the avatar
teal path
yeah I hope they fix it
sand wren
so if its directly above the hips maybe it doesnt have issues
but if u move it to the avatars eyes so that its in the actually correct place
i think thats when it causes problems
teal path
i think I have one more model to update
sand wren
the further ahead the more spine tilting there is
teal path
then im done with the ones I use
molten ore
Added a suggestion in the canny on having a downloadable 3.0 avatar
This avatar 3.0 is fucking up my brain
visual dagger
i have some video tutorials if that would help
molten ore
I can't just always ask people whats this or that. I would love a demonstration on an Avatar with it.
sand wren
im working on one of those @molten ore but i cant download a good model to demonstrate on
visual dagger
yeah, i tried to find a good model but they all say not to share even if they're free
sand wren
also kinda busy with uh.. things.. lol
and the models i found i couldnt ask the creator for permission to use
so trying to find some random free vrchat avatar base
sand wren
i dont have nikkeis model
visual dagger
could maybe generate a quickie out of vroid or something and use that
sand wren
dont have vroid either
also nikkei already in the 3.0 hub
wanted something like an anime avatar so that its easier to relate to other peoples avatars / looks more useful
molten ore
Download the dummy avatar from Mixamo then
Mixamo has a characters tab with rigged avatar
@sand wren
molten ore
oh
sand wren
and i want to do one example of an animated
O〰O💧 face
sand wren
yea ik
molten ore
【Terms of Use】
This model is released under UV license.
Allow use as an avatar. (Basic terms)
Allow alteration to avatars and divert parts for the purpose of adding personality . (Basic terms)
Allow personal commercial use.（Individual terms）
Allow distribution of derivative works.（Individual terms）
Allow distribution, and diversion of data.（Individual terms）
i was trying to download a Len but it wasnt working for me
molten ore
I think this one's a start. Thank you if you do try to make one.
sand wren
probably here and vrc----
tardy solstice
I'm not gonna upload hundreds of screenshots somewhere else for the express purpose of sending them here to make sure that I'm doing everything correctly
sand wren
i will also have a bunch of readmes describing logic
bc unity is stupid as ass and doesnt let u create comments inside of animators
tardy solstice
Alright! Mouth is working, finger-based gesture overrides are working, now to just get the wheel expressions working so I can see if I can get that dance I want playing all the way to the end
tardy solstice
Welp... I got one of the emotes in the menu. So tedious going one at a time...
At least for now, I only really needed that one
sand wren
also found another trick with shader texture offsets
u can use spritesheets for clothing as well
if u scale down the UVs u can move the UVs onto the right set of textures in unity
this means that minimum u need one material, one mesh for those clothes, and one texture
an alternative to 6+ materials and meshes
also a reminder don't forget to Crunch Compress your textures
if u don't ur avatar can be 70 some megabytes, especially important if u use unitys 8k texture setting and work with spritesheets
hasty hemlock
that does sound like an improvement not having to use lots of materials
sand wren
ye
crunch compression works wonders too
high quality png at 21.5 MB compressed with high quality image compressor online then unity crunch compress at 100 normal quality
went down to like 700 or so KB
cant remember how small it ended up being
but no loss in quality from what i observed
at least any noticable loss
visual dagger
none of that actually helps much for different clothes in reality though, since you can't have just 1 mesh for different clothing
otherwise it's the same clothing, but different materials
unless i misunderstood what you're trying to explain, in which case I'm not sure what the 'trick' is
merry swan
Have an avatar with 3 outfits, one material each i just material swap it so its 1 mesh, buut some worlds that will look odd since you can see the shine of the hidden ones using a invisible material 🤷♀️
restive rivet
I'd like to use "sprite sheets" instead of tons of materials, how do you move the UVs inside of an animation?
merry swan
You could use that , offset the texture on material, not sure how you would tell it to move when you swap to another outfit
visual dagger
same way you move anything else, in the animation you can set keyframes for offsets just as easily as setting different materials
basically any setting in the shader should be available to the animator to be changed
it does make me curious though how compressed textures might affect actual performance, 700K is nice until that potatoe computer has to then decompress it, using processor time it doesn't have to spare to begin with, versus 10 extra seconds to download a bigger file
and 10 seconds is greatly exaggerated of course
restive rivet
Can you change the offset in any shader or is it something that it must be added by the developer?
visual dagger
not sure, but the 'Standard' shader has it, and the UnitychanToon shader has it
it should be fairly common i think
at least as far as I know, I haven't tried to see if they work
restive rivet
I'll look into it, thanks for the tip!
visual dagger
New tutorial on emotes https://youtu.be/TcNdmzh7SLc
upbeat crescent
thanks @visual dagger
visual dagger
np
merry swan
Emotes confused me at first since it stopped after x seconds, then i saw i could just lenghten the animation time or have no exit time
low brook
Is there a way to change the bindings in VR mode to include keyboard shortcuts?
beyond the core 8 with macros and shortcuts
woven goblet
You’ll need something like OVR Advanced Settings to do that
neon finch
is there a limit on submenus
visual dagger
as far as I can tell, the only limit on submenus is the limit of how many things could be put in them, which is an insane amount
fluid grotto
You are not limited by menus. But you only have so many stage parameters. Menus don’t have to edit stage parameters though, they can also adjust your own internal parameters, which are unlimited. But they shouldn’t mod appearance directly since they aren’t syched. eventually they need to trigger a stage parameter to change as only they are syched to others.
I just think of it that you can have all kinds of dails and sliders and as many variables as you want, but you need to figure out how to send all that entirely as stage parameters so others can have the same end result
burnt flax
well. i got 2 out 4 face to work. seem purr and fear dont work two axis puppet.
bitter escarp
https://vrchat.canny.io/feature-requests/p/gesture-layer-only-recognizes-the-avatar-mask-on-layer-1 please upvote! the gesture layer only uses the first layers avatar mask
past rover
You might want to redo that post in the Avatar 3.0 section on canny, not in feature requests
dapper hearth
Can I disable tracking for a specific animation in a blend tree?
pulsar lagoon
Uh, I don't think so normally, but you may be able to work around it. What is driving your blendtree? Velocity? Puppet menus?
Regardless, you may be able to set up another layer to check if the float value associated with that particular animation is above a certain number, then set a state behavior to disable tracking. I'm not sure if it'd work well, but it's my best guess.
dapper hearth
I haven't set anything up yet, I wanted to know in advance. That's why I posted in here instead of help
And that sounds good
burnt flax
i guess people need start building Expression Menu Icon package. LOL!
sand wren
someone needs to release the gradient they use for the menu
and what kind of dropshadow
burnt flax
dont get me wrong. def is great. i feel we can do better 🙂
fluid grotto
One change I'd like to see with the menu icons is the ability for submenu icons to pull their icon from one menu down, whichever toggle was picked. Like if you pick a green shirt in a shirt color menu, the submenu to pick color shows that green icon too, showing it's the one currently chosen
Menu type could just be "Choice" or something
In the case of props, the submenu "Left Hand" would have the icon of the sword if that's the prop you picked last, then going into the submenu shows all the other choices
visual dagger
I wonder what the best way would be to setup textures/materials for color shifting with radials
cedar pumice
With Avatars 3.0, can we use UDON to make custom behaviors yet?
fluid grotto
No
cedar pumice
Is that planned for the future?
fluid grotto
People say the devs want to. I have not seen a direct quote of a Dev saying so.
cedar pumice
Interesting. Hopefully this becomes a reality in the future.
https://youtu.be/i_UYBMBqYV0?t=52 being able to possibly make behaviors that could emulate this would be sooo cool.
I could only imagine how much more depth we'd have with UDON and avatars.
pulsar lagoon
@visual dagger If you use poiyomi shader, it supports hue shifting. You could make a 1d blendtree with hue 0 on one end, and hue 100 on the other, and use a radial menu to choose a value in-between the two
visual dagger
yeah, I know how to do the blending
pulsar lagoon
That being said, avatar 3.0 has been giving me grief about certain parts of poiyomi syncing with other users, sadly.
visual dagger
I'm more wondering the best way to setup the textures themselves to best support any color
pulsar lagoon
I imagine it'd be easier on toon avatars that don't rely on specific shading
visual dagger
like, right now I have psd files with layers for shading and detail, but they have a 'base color' layer
one thought is to remove the base color layer and use a blank white image as the base texture on the model with the rest added on top
then color shifting the blank white would be easier, without shifting the details as much
fluid grotto
You’d want a hue mask
So it knows what parts of the image should be color tintable
Many games do this when items are user colorable; that way it can keep white highlights and stuff
pulsar lagoon
Even so, hues shifting can add in artifacts to textures depending on shading, especially if gradients are involved in just the colored parts.
You'd ideally want to be able to seperate shading from the base color and blend them in shader somehow.
visual dagger
right, that's what i'm saying
fluid grotto
Shaders should be free from banding; it’s all floats operating on a greyscale mask
pulsar lagoon
Didn't mean specifically banding, but that is good to know about.
visual dagger
so, the model I have is using unitychantoonshader, it has a 'basemap' that is currently just the texture file, but it also has 'base color' and also shade maps, normals, etc
real mist
you can use poiyomi to recolor your cloths and still have the details on the texture this dont use any base texture(this literraly empty) just masks
visual dagger
poiyomi is apparently broken in 3.0 and i had issues with it in 2.0 as well
my main problem is that (for example) I have a white shirt with black and grey 'logo' on it, if i change the hue on it, the greys and blacks get saturated with the colors, not just the white
the problem is even worse with something like the skirt which is already near black, the hue shift won't change it much
and since i have all of the elements, including highlights and shading, in individual layers I'm simply trying to figure out how to best deal with the base color
real mist
cant tell i dont use hue shift o use RBG mask and details masks
visual dagger
same difference
real mist
in my setup my default texture its white the poiyomi white square
and i add the details of the texture in black and white in the detail mask
so the white texture has the details on top
after that i set up a RGB mask so i can change the colors in the parts i want with an animation with 3 levels RGB
visual dagger
yeah, that's basically what I was asking for
real mist
i cant post pictures here but let me show you and example in av3 help
pulsar lagoon
The way poiyomi is broken in 3.0 at this point appears only to be an issue with the dissolve shader, and even then, only when transmitted over the network. It works just fine locally, so I don't think it's fair to say the shader specifically is broken. I'm still trying to find out the exact issue though.
Unless there are some other issues other people are having that I don't know about.
visual dagger
not sure specifically, I've just heard multiple people saying it's not working right or it's "broken"
no telling what that really means though
pulsar lagoon
I'll post my specific issue again, just in case someone happens to have a solution, but I've not found anything so far.
Uh, I'll post it in the help channel since images aren't postable here
regal swan
R there anyother avatar3 worlds
sleek tartan
how to use spiderman web shooter
fluid grotto
No one really makes avatar 3.0 worlds since it's a beta only feature
The test world Tupper links to in #avatar-development-links has a few avatar 3.0 pedistals.
sand wren
i will make an avatar 3.0 world with animal crossing avi and some other ones
including the example one i will make public
lime plume
every world is compatible with AV3, but i doubt theres many other worlds with AV3 pedestals if thats what you mean
silver adder
I wouldn't say EVERY world is compatible. Some use custom sitting animations for their chairs, and those will probably break with AV3 avatars.
silver adder
Man, the UI likes to lie a lot on the AV3 beta...
It will show a public session on the testing world linked in #730973243904753705, but when i join that session no-one is there...
tulip scroll
It would be cool if you could use this to make a toggle able flashlight
Ik you can I just think this would make it easier
silver adder
It does make it easier.
Since you now have full controller over the Animator with AV3, you can rig things up exactly how you want it, instead of being restricted by overrides.
sand wren
@silver adder the ui lies regardless of whether or not you are in beta
within the 1.6k hours i have on vrchat its been several times that ive joined worlds with "11+" players and there is nobody there, or joined off a friend who had went offline or already changed worlds
silver adder
Guess that might be more of an issue with the servers then... They probably aren't updating player counts per world in real-time.
Which makes sense now that i think about it from a performance viewpoint. But it can lead to frustrating moments like that.
Ah, i need to utilize Build & Test more. I keep uploading before testing out of habit.
Anyways, gn. I need to sleep now.
upper remnant
I'm not sure the problem is performance, but there probably are development restrictions of various kinds that mean player counts are not updated quickly
Biggest one might just be priorities.
neon mortar
im curious though, i like to keep the vrchat website open and the social tab on there seems to update alot quicker than in game
upper remnant
the website is a different client even if it consumes the same api, which it might not
woven goblet
They both use the same api. It’s just that the website is updated more reliably via the websocket than the client is
upper remnant
i assume they're going to do something about that with the new ui
woven goblet
Most likely yeah
azure scaffold
i don't have vr but im so excited for avatar3.0, it looks likes it will unlock a lot of potential
grim mirage
Any idea when Avatars 3.0 will be put in the main branch? I don't want to miss hanging out with friends by switching to Avatars 3.0.
wintry glade
Yeah gotta fix the bugs before it gets pushed to live
fluid grotto
Does anyone know the eye rotation values that best approximate 2.0 behavoir? I'm trying to automate this
pulsar lagoon
Your best bet may be to just switch to a 2.0 avatar and stare in the mirror and take screenshots each time the eye moves and just kinda guess from there when setting your rotations for 3.0
fluid grotto
Was hoping someone knew the internal values
past rover
Open beta periods usually last 2 weeks give or take, unless things happen and release gets delayed
fluid grotto
Expression menu assets won't let me duplicate their file aaaa
fallow sequoia
That should work with Ctrl-D
silver adder
Duplicating files in Unity can be a bit finicky sometimes.
neon finch
where can you get herbert?
fluid grotto
What layer should transform puppeting go on?
Gesture or Action?
I feel like it's Gesture but I'm not sure. Gesture needs masks. Action needs you to turn the whole layer on to use it
pulsar lagoon
I've always used gesture, personally.
Thing is, depending on what you're trying to puppet, the mask may not actually matter that much. I've found no matter what mask setting I use, if I'm puppeteering something outside of the Unity Humanoid skeleton, masks do nothing to it.
If you do need to do something inside the rig, I think M.O.O.N. did a tutorial on a desktop arm animation.
@fluid grotto
Oh, when I mean to say masks do nothing to it, what I mean is the animation just works as intended. For instance, I puppeted my character's wings. Wings aren't part of the humanoid skeleton, and I just used the example hands only mask, and it worked fine.
fluid grotto
I find if I put any animation on the gesture layer without a mask, my default hand poses stop working
Does anyone have an example of what the LookUp and LookDown blend shapes should look like?
Having a hard time mimicking avatar 2.0 appearence
rotund harness
Avatars in 2.0 didn't typically have the LookUp and LookDown animations, so if you're trying to go one to one then just skip it
restive rivet
Just move the eyelid up and down a little bit
They didn't exist at all on 2.0 did they?
cyan hound
Anyone wanna play vrchat and chill. Dm if interested
deft lodge
@fluid grotto
If i understand what you are asking about correctly
on Avatars 2.0 they used vrc.blink_left, vrc.blink_right, vrc.lowerlid_left, vrc.lowerlid_right shapekeys
and when you look up or down they used those shapekeys
I believe it worked like that:
Looking up - vrc.lowerlid
Looking down - vrc.blink (or upperlids for SDK3)
There was one tutorial on youtube and they had this documentation attached in the description to it that has every vrc shapekey described on what it should be like including blinks and lowerlids and stuff
Here's that video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WyUhUtryZw
and here's the documentation i mentioned that is in the description:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1W5KFa_aszCMrJaFD8mb9a-GHYO4X4S9M63GjM4UwuEw/pub
restive rivet
Oh wait lowerlid did anything? I assumed they were unused but still required cause the old system is basically nonsensical witchcraft
upbeat crescent
lowerlid lowered the top eyelids when you were looking down
fluid grotto
Lower lid activate when you looked up but it was binary. It’s a gradient now
When looking down, a little bit of blinking played. I'm wondering how much
fluid grotto
@deft lodge thanks much
marsh haven
Also a question if it's possible to actually replace Rock&Roll as in not a simple gesture animation but replace the method of activating it. So index users don't have to do Rock&Roll but actually the custom one I want?
fluid grotto
We don't yet have that option since gestures still come in as integers on GestureLeft and GestureRight. how they are triggered is not in our control. but you could mess with steam bindings but it wouldn't be on the level I think you want
marsh haven
Yeah fair.
barren garden
Downloaded sdk3 and i am teribly disappointed with load times. I press play andi t takes like 40 seconds ot go into unity play mode
seems there is a canny about it but has anyone else experienced such thing yet?
canny someone else reported: https://vrchat.canny.io/avatar-30/p/bug-long-loadcompile-times-within-unity-editor
modest sun
@barren garden Never seen this. Can you check your console for errors.
Does it happen every time or just the first
barren garden
each time
modest sun
Just to be clear, this channel is about building Avatars 3.0 using SDK3
if you're doing something else, for example Udon, that long wait time is normal and expected
modest sun
ok, as long as there is no Udon files in your project, the play times should be extremely fast
that's highly unusual. you're on moderately recent/fast hardware
barren garden
I never told u what hardware i have thinking
and when i imported the sdk from the link it also imported some udon
i think most of it lol... could be the udon presence a reason?
marsh haven
@barren garden Delete anything related to Udon
barren garden
it seems sdk3 needs a switch for udon
because once this hits live, peopel will complain a lot about long scene play startup time
marsh haven
Pretty sure the package that goes live will be properly made as a standalone
barren garden
there is some #if UDON but i am afraid its rpecompiled in package
marsh haven
You can delete all of those
barren garden
i didnt try to build yet, afraid it may explode when i hit anythign related to avatar building D:
marsh haven
Works just fine for me 👍
barren garden
ok
indigo mauve
does anyone know how to get the baby brush skin that joshdubs uses
neon finch
Hey guys, anyone know where I can find a Nekomata Okayu avatar with rigged hand gestures?
I found one with faces but no hand gestures
my mic on vr chat isnt working anyone know a fix?
next hinge
Talking in random channels that aren't the right one isn't going to going to get anyone to help you any faster @neon finch
neon finch
well idk what the right one is
next hinge
#user-support-old @neon finch
Also check #vrchat-support if you need to file a ticket for help, I think
neon finch
Does anyone have a hisoka avatar compatible with oculus quest? If so dm me please! Thanks!
neon finch
Wrong place to ask friend
granite zephyr
I only have one question....
Is this for the quest? My gut tells me its for PC only as of current but I just want to make sure
rotund harness
@granite zephyr The open-beta is only on PC, but when it goes live it should be on Quest as well
near hound
can we not bind it on right stick? Having Jump on A, oculus user here, is really weird and takes out the fluid movement to some extent
silver adder
The bindings are not final.
fluid grotto
Yeah I'm thankful steam version let me swap them back in the bind menu, but Oculus Home users, without custom binds, aren't gonna have a good time
I try to bind stuff away from stick clicks because I feel like it induces deadzone faster
jaunty ruin
hi so where should i start with the vrchat 3.0?
fluid grotto
silver adder
Wow, i just realized the amount of possibilities that custom parameters just opened up for me...
wet portal
Yep. Fully customizable state logic
silver adder
Oh man, being able to add an additive layer to my locomotion controller is SO nice. Now my avatar is no longer in a static pose when moving! (My avatar glides/hovers across the ground instead of walking, and without the additive movement it's just a static pose).
cyan hound
Does ANYONE have a giagantic anime girl with chairs on her hands that I can clone?
silver adder
You just violated rule 15 by spamming that in every channel bruh.
- No posting the same question or statement across multiple channels
vapid wren
next hinge
Literally never have I ever in any of the servers I've ever been in seen people spam questions across multiple channels and unironically think that somehow that gets people to answer.
Why do people do that?
Don't answer that lol.
Anyway, did I see something about being able to change colors with the new menu?
I thought I saw someone post a video of the new systems being used to change colors on an avatar.
I'm having trouble finding it.
merry swan
https://youtu.be/eTaoxRbmAKE That one?
he is using material colors
go to around 12:40
next hinge
Nice. If Unity supports YCbCr/YUV, could make my own solution that maps nicely to a 2 axis input.
For those who don't know, YCbCr is basically Brightness with two Color channels
Maybe I could have something like what that guy did where he has a Hue slider but one axis is Hue the other is brightness
I love the possibilites
merry swan
Not sure you can change hue , tried to make one and could only get a material swap to work to other colors
next hinge
Since it looks like it interpolates between the colors somewhat, might be possible to create enough material colors to cover a convincing amount of the spectrum
But that might make the brightness thing a bit hard...
upbeat crescent
you can have the HUD going in both hands doing different things at the same time though..
fluid grotto
You can turn off the interpolation if you want. Or make it longer. It’s called transition time and is a property on each of the arrows between animation nodes @next hinge
simple maple
Who also would appreciate a VRC Beta Branch as separate application on steam instead having to reinstall game all the time ? I know i would likely 'like' that.
waxen edge
That would be great tbh
simple maple
Yeah, i don't believe that they can't do this. Normal games without big modding communities have them and yet VRC has none of that...
waxen edge
Also, just looking into this whole av3 thing for the first time and man I cant wait to get home from work to play around with this. It looks like now I'll actually have a decent means of adding APB characters with easily usable weapons (assuming based on what I saw in the showoff channel)
simple maple
Well, you can get weapons now too
Emote Inventory is there to be used without much complication to get at least 4 guns on only that as toggleable not counting all gestures and their combination
waxen edge
Yeah and before one of the main blockers for me was the lack of additive animations. I have all the character animations from APB, which are additive with the exception of emotes. They were kinda useless until now.
fluid grotto
The toggle sub menus are great for inventory.
Custom Inventory icons are even a bonus. This update is so extra I love it
sand wren
i still do face expressions on fingers bc super easy but i have a button to disable the facials from them
restive rivet
The custom icons are such a nice touch
It was so unexpected and I welcome it with open arms
timber trench
checked out the avatar show case world but they where all errors that supposed to happen or do i need to re load
sand wren
you need to be in the beta version of vrchat
deft lodge
You need to switch over to a beta client through steam properties of VRChat
timber trench
oh yeah forgot about that
neon finch
Question i have problems in animations (Particles) where can I ask?
sand wren
what kinds of problems and if its related to a avatars3 avatar then #avatar-help, otherwise #avatars-2-general
neon finch
Ok thank you
simple maple
We need a petition for beta branches to be standalone VRC installation.
sand wren
also for worlds designed for beta to not have public instances in live
and instead show an error message
simple maple
You mean test worlds of av 3.0 beta ?
sand wren
ye
restive rivet
Or not show at all
Why show something completely broken?
If the version number is higher or pertains to a beta just hide it
vestal bloom
hi everyone
radiant scroll
when is 3.0 gonna come out officialy
fluid grotto
No official word. Most seem to be under the impression that it will be a month-ish but it’s anyone’s guess
Unless a dev wants to comment 👀
grizzled acorn
dev, while merging avatars3.0 to live: right now
fluid grotto
I think we did get promised that “every 3.0 upload will be broken before it’s live”
dapper hearth
"Things always go wrong once before you get to the happy ending"
Hey, a quick question about blinking and visemes. is 2D blinking and visemes a proper feature or merely possible in the new system?
fluid grotto
It is a proper supported feature of avatar 3.0 in that a visieme is merely a animator parameter you can do whatever you want with, including triggering an animation that can do whatever you want, including material swap
So yes avatar 3.0 can do it. But they don’t have a “drop materials here” panel or anything
It’s a bit more general use
merry swan
🤷♀️ material swap tend to do odd things to certain parts of my avatars, no idea why,. tried to read up on it but that just confused me more, something about 2 materials+ batching it goes derp, tried 2 animators to see if it does it ,and it breaks the skin
grizzled solar
merry swan
with persistant toggles, yes, until you change map anyway then reverts
dapper hearth
@fluid grotto I did know what. I think what I really meant to ask is, is that the case for both visemes and blinking or just visemes?
fluid grotto
Good question. I can check
It's looking like eye movment and blinking timings are internal and not exposed to the SDK.
@dapper hearth
You can define a blink shapekey now, and rotation limits for eye tracking, but what its doing live the animator cannot react to
visual dagger
there are 2 sliders for eye movement and timing to change in-game behavior
fluid grotto
are those parameters network syched
visual dagger
one goes from Calm to Excited, and the other goes from Shy to Confident. Calm / Excited affects how often you blink. Shy / Confident affects how often you look at other players, and how long your gaze remains on other player's faces until you look away
i don't know that the sliders can be affected in game or by animations, documentation doesn't mention that
although you can disable eye animation (tracking) in order to stop the eye movement while you play a different animation
woeful ruin
i don't know that the sliders can be affected in game or by animations, documentation doesn't mention that
@visual dagger You cannot animate any properties of your avatar descriptor, so no, you can't animate that 🙂
visual dagger
didn't think so, but thanks for the clarification 🙂
woeful ruin
sure thing!
tardy solstice
Welp, I had to to a clean reinstall of VRChat since a bug happened after I tested out the Avatars 3.0 beta branch, then went back to the normal branch to hang out with friends
fluid grotto
I think we did get promised that “every 3.0 upload will be broken before it’s live”
Dev team deliverered!
visual dagger
lol
Looks like I'll have to do some updates to my youtube tutorials once the new update is out 😛
jaunty ruin
Dose anyone know if avatar 3.0 will break current vrchats when it's released
Like all 2.0 avatars?
tardy solstice
In one of my older avatars I used in the MMD world while in the Avatars 3.0 beta branch because the Avatar 3.0 avatars don't seem to work in those worlds, after I went back to the main branch, that 2.0 avatar ended up repeating my voice in my ears at full volume until I did a clean reinstall
2.0 avatars appear to work in the 3.0 beta branch
neon finch
@jaunty ruin it shouldn't. 2.0 and 3.0 are separate. My 2.0 avatars all work fine while in the 3.0 beta
neon finch
When 3.0 goes live, they said 2.0 will still exists and can be used to upload even, but likely won't be getting many new features
near hill
Is there a reason that tying the parameters to the descriptor is better than having them in a programmable asset?
jaunty ruin
I feel so overwhelmed by the 3.0 like how do I start doing stuff like all the cool things I've seen¿
visual dagger
most likely a case of simplifying things for creators since there's no reason to have it separated and people thinking they can use multiple stage parameter lists ends up being confusing (and doesn't work)
near hill
eh it seems like it may reduce the complexity marginally when learning in exchange for making it more difficult to reuse animators across avatars
visual dagger
@jaunty ruin maybe start with some tutorials? https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLYeEcl-XxYVmXyXtQ0c33jXB54nklug2n
near hill
which isn't really as much of a problem now, but it'd become more of an issue over time
since any changes to an animator would require you to modify the parameters on any relevant descriptors
visual dagger
actually, i think since they're ultimately just aliases, it should probably make reuse of animators actually easier in some ways
upper remnant
yeah but if you change the alias in an animator, on every descriptor you also have to change it
visual dagger
especially in cases where you're using someone elses animators to merge into your avatar, you just need the names they used and put them on whatever stage# you have available
jaunty ruin
@jaunty ruin maybe start with some tutorials? https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLYeEcl-XxYVmXyXtQ0c33jXB54nklug2n
@visual dagger
Yeah I have been looking at them
upper remnant
rather than referring to the same asset file
jaunty ruin
Oo I just noticed that's u making the tutorials 😂 thanks
upper remnant
its not a big deal imo i think people would still be managing their own parameters
visual dagger
yeah, it seems more like a consideration for people putting together their 1 avatar from multiple pieces other people have posted
jaunty ruin
Yeah
visual dagger
for people making and maintaining multiple avatars it maybe a slight step down
I've been a developer long enough that I have a certain way of naming things, and i'd use those same names across everything I make, so it's not a huge deal for me
near hill
¯_(ツ)_/¯
I see it being harder for people to share stuff without scripts since you need to somehow include an avatar descriptor and tell people how to merge it
visual dagger
you don't though
silver adder
I can see it making things easier for people just getting into the system. At the cost of making reusing animations harder.
visual dagger
that's the whole point, it's just an alias to the same "stage1" that everyone already has
if I have an animator using a parameter called "ThisThing" I can have it on stage4, but when you use it you could put it on stage16 and it still works
so, merging multiple animators from multiple sources is way easier
near hill
and what happens when they already have something else in stage1?
visual dagger
instead of having to make sure you use the same numbered stages as the other guy, or getting 2 scripts that both use stage3
i just said, that's why we don't use stage1 directly, the alias is what we use
silver adder
Luckily, i only have one 3.0 avatar so far. So it'll be a quick and easy fix when the next update releases.
visual dagger
the alias can be anywhere
sorry, i typoed earlier, when i said "stage1" i meant "stage#"
near hill
the issue is that stage1 will be synced as only stage1, so you have animator A change stage1, and have animator B also change stage1
visual dagger
but it's not, because we're using aliases which is the entire point
near hill
you don't magically get more than 16 stage parameters by using aliases
lime plume
The Avatars 3.0 team is working with the Open Beta community to add/fix last minute features and bugs!
AV3 soon™?
visual dagger
no, but it doesnt matter what the NAME is
near hill
it doesn't matter until it needs to be synced
woven goblet
But I am using Stage1 for my Emotes, but this package is using Stage1 for something else
visual dagger
^
ok, so here's the thing, it doesn't matter what stage# ANYONE is using
the animators point at a NAME not a stage#
woven goblet
It does though, if I use stage1 with values 1-10 for something, then another also uses stage1 1-10 for something
visual dagger
which means you can move that name to ANY stage# and it still works
if you're calling stage1 directly, you're doing it wrong
that's the entire point of the alias system
near hill
that's great, but the stage aliases still need to be merged so that you only have 1 set of aliases for the descriptor. And you only have 16 stage parameters that are synced
visual dagger
you can only have 16 anyways, i don't get your point
near hill
I don't understand how this is better than merging the program assets
now you need to merge avatar descriptors and the parameters
visual dagger
I never said merging 2 full sets of 16 aliases
I said merging bits and pieces from different creators
near hill
yes and how is that better than merging program assets?
visual dagger
Like, some dance emotes from guy1 and some facial blends from guy2
near hill
now you need to find their avatar descriptor on the prefab and copy the parameters by hand
visual dagger
i don't care what stage# they used, i only need the parameter name/type
near hill
of course you don't care, but you still need to merge them
visual dagger
there's nothing to merge
near hill
what do you mean? you still need to merge the parameters???
visual dagger
you add "Parameter1" and "Parameter2" to you descriptor and you're done
I'm not sure why you think this is complicated
near hill
the issue is that it's worse than merging program assets of parameters and now people who make prefabs for avatars need to distribute avatar descriptors with those parameters
visual dagger
you keep saying that, but it's not correct
the descriptor does not need to be distributed at all
near hill
and the baseline work goes up if you just want to use 1 prefab because now instead of just dragging the parameter asset onto your avatar descriptor, you need to find and look at their descriptor and copy all the parameters by hand
woven goblet
You are sharing a prefab for drag and drop it has to be shared
near hill
how do you distribute the parameters then? Have a readme with all the parameters that they need to add?
that's objectively worse than just dragging and dropping a program asset
visual dagger
ok fine, let's say objectively that someone want's a drag-drop prefab of the entire parameter list and the animators on a fresh avatar
in other words, the way it is now
if you download someone elses stuff, you still can't merge it by drag-drop
so you're arguing about getting rid of a feature that doesn't exist anyways
near hill
no, I'm asking why it's better to not have the program asset, and you've only given reasons why it's worse
visual dagger
no, i explained what the feature is for not what you want it to be
near hill
okay so I'm using it wrong, why is this easier if I'm using it right and how do I use it right?
visual dagger
the entire point is so i can take your animator, add a couple parameters to MY list and use your animator
instead of having to re-write my entire parameter list to suit how you did things
or re-do a huge chunk of stuff because 3 people all used stage1 for different things
near hill
but you can still do that??? You just add the parameters to the parameter list?
visual dagger
yes, but that's all it's for
visual dagger
so i said most likely they're making the change to make it easier for people to use it right
near hill
who's using stage parameters by stage1 stage2 etc? Is it worth making the workflow less modular because a handful of people might do it wrong?
visual dagger
for the first week the beta was out, the number of people trying to figure out why their multiple parameter files weren't working goes to show no one knew how to use them
who's using stage parameters by stage1 stage2 etc? Is it worth making the workflow less modular because a handful of people might do it wrong?
@near hill I never said anything about that
near hill
so they didn't read the docs like VRC tells you to do? And no one bothered to document their tools (me included) assuming that people knew this already
visual dagger
It wasn't actually in the docs initially, but yeah, no one reads the docs
near hill
if they don't read the docs, this is going to be the least of their issues
visual dagger
probably, but most all developers end up having to lean towards "all our users are idiots" otherwise no one uses the software because it's too hard
if the ability to create multiple files (when only one can be used) is removed, less confusion
woven goblet
One thing I feel is going to be more difficult is that I now can't use this to store it for later to use on another avatar.
I have to go and type each parameter again, just to get the same on this one. Instead of what I can do now, which is just drag and drop the menu asset into the slot and off I go.
near hill
They're throwing away capability to make it less confusing for users who are now going to have trouble on other areas because they failed to read the docs, and they are introducing sources of error for people who just want to use prefabs, who aren't going to be reading any docs
I fail to see why this is better
Someone can make a tool to emulate the program assets and handle merging, but that means that all these prefabs will start with "now download this tool because you can't do anything without it"
visual dagger
in your scenario they're already downloading a prefab that can't merge with anything they started with anyway, so it's already something they'll have to dig into manually, or download another tool
near hill
in my scenario people who want 1 thing on their avatar need to download the tool, whereas they didn't prior
and if they want to merge them, nothing is changed
they either download the tool and make life easier, or they merge them by hand
visual dagger
I get the usefulness of having a prefab for copy/pasting to your second avatar you made, but for actual distribution it's already not going to work
near hill
it's making adding a single thing harder, and not improving merging at all
visual dagger
so this entire 'feature' relys on a tool existing to merge things, which could just pull the parameters into a file and import them to the new merge
near hill
the level of entry is higher for single additions to your avatar
visual dagger
not if it's an addition to an existing avatar with parameters already
because if you already have parameters, your distributed file can't be used anyway
near hill
yes I addressed that it's the same between the two
and that is not the only issue
these are just new user issues
visual dagger
you said making adding a single thing harder, it's literally the same
near hill
no it's not
visual dagger
making adding the only thing harder, sure
near hill
in one case you drag the asset onto your descriptor which is easy
near hill
in another case you find an avatar descriptor that comes with the prefab and copy every parameter by hand into your own avatar descriptor
YES
fine
silver adder
Bots man... (jk, it was just doing it's job)
near hill
you have not given any arguments in favor of it other than "screw the users who have used it for more than 20 mins because some people got confused"
visual dagger
and you haven't given an argument to why it's something that shouldn't be changed, so we're even
near hill
and the solution is to make the people who have gotten confused do more work
A. You can't reuse the same parameter list between multiple avatars
B. Prefabs now need to include a detached avatar descriptor that users must manually merge parameters from, even if they don't want to use multiple prefabs
C. If you make any modifications to 1 avatar descriptor you must now modify all of them if they're shared
silver adder
I mean, Merlin has a point. There are more cons than pros.
near hill
and you're saying that they should make the parameters into something that people need to know to copy manually so every prefab must now include a walkthrough on this instead of saying "drag this asset into this slot and this animator into this slot"
visual dagger
where did i say that?
near hill
that is the crux of your argument, make the users do change the parameters on the descriptor so it's more obvious that there's one set of parameters per avatar
make them do work to convey the limitation
visual dagger
no, i said there is a limitation, so it makes sense for them to enforce it
near hill
they are enforcing it already
visual dagger
i also said that it was likely this is why they were changing it
near hill
you can't just magically make it have more than 16 stage parameters
yes and I'm saying that it's not worth the exchange
visual dagger
no, but you can magically make 300 parameter files and then wonder why they don't work
THAT is what it gets rid of
near hill
how?
visual dagger
if you can't make 2 files, you won't try to use 2 files
simple as that, people are dumb
near hill
there's 1 slot for files
if they took 2 seconds to read the documentation they'd see that
visual dagger
look at the sub menu
take 2 seconds and see its not
you can put a parameter file in each menu file
but they don't work, so people got confused
near hill
that sounds like an issue with allowing parameter files on submenus
woven goblet
So read the docs =/
- Folder A
- Animation
- Menu.asset
- Parameters.asset
- gameObject.prefab
- Folder B
- Animation
- Menu.asset
- Parameters.asset
- gameObject.prefab
- Folder C
- Animation
- Menu.asset
- Parameters.asset
- gameObject.prefab
How is this not better than using the Avatar Descriptor?
visual dagger
At no point did i say it was or wasn't better either way
I expressed an opinion on WHY I think they're changing it
and I could be completely off, maybe embedding the stage parameters improves sync and performance enough that it matters
silver adder
There are pros and cons to this, it's easier to use, but it's harder to reuse the same set of parameters across multiple avatars.
visual dagger
agreed
but again, most people will never have to worry about that, and in cases of distribution of parts it's a mute point
lost niche
Well, that example is okay until one animation is a toggle, and the next animation overwrites the param it uses
visual dagger
as a whole, just distribute the whole avatar and make everyones life easier
@lost niche that's why the aliases are used, so nothing conflicts as it would if you only used stage#
woven goblet
It will if they both are using Stage1
visual dagger
unless you tell your animation to used stage1, that doesn't happen
woven goblet
But then you won't have it sync, because the synced value is now different.
visual dagger
here's an experiment for you guys since none of you seem to understand how aliases work...
the default stage1 is VRCEmotes
put VRCEmotes on stage16 and see if it still works
spoiler, IT DOES
because the stage# means nothing
it's looking at the name VRCEMote
any parameter you have on your avatar, just move that name to a different stage#, it will still work
lost niche
Well, locally
pretty sure if you have two aliases set to stage one, both toggle animations
only one gets synced over the network
visual dagger
you can't get 2 aliases to stage1
the stage parameter file is what sets the aliases, and you can only have 1
lost niche
Well, people thought you could use new ones for each sub menu
so they should just put it in the avatar descriptor, haha
near hill
🤷 I can see people being confused with either situation, if they're making content that uses submenus and trying to merge things they're already going to run into issues. There is a point where you should be handholdy for new users and there's a point where you need to put your foot down and tell them to read the docs because they're going to continue shooting themselves in the foot if they're getting stuck on basic stuff. Especially if you're sacrificing developer freedom and shifting the confusion to another place where basic users with 0 knowledge of avatars 3.0 will have issues. IMO this is not worth the potential issues and is just shoving problems down the road since if they're trying to mix and match assets like that they are already doing things that require them to be aware of how it works. If it's just people getting confused on submenus, I think they should just make the menus have two modes, normal, and submenu. Have one disable the parameters field.
visual dagger
realistically they could just get rid of the aliases all together and force everyone to use stage1-16 as they're numbered and make a document that states what each stage# is for
but that kind of gets rid of the flexibility of the whole thing
near hill
if they do that then you're even worse off when you're merging stuff
visual dagger
exactly
lost niche
keep the param file, but have it slot into the descriptor instead?
visual dagger
personally, i'd prefer that solution
upper remnant
isn't that the current behavior
visual dagger
no
woven goblet
We are moving the custom parameter definitions to the Avatar Descriptor rather than using a specific object. This will break essentially all currently-uploaded AV3 avatars, and you will need to re-define your custom parameters (aliased Stage parameters). Make sure you document/screenshot your setup before upgrading your project to the new AV3 SDK when we release it!
it slots into the menu file
upper remnant
ah yeah. the problem is that's confusing?
visual dagger
which you can have sub menus, so then there are multiples
visual dagger
well, I said I thought that maybe a reason why they're changing it, since it's currently confusing people
yeah
silver adder
Honestly, i think the best middle ground would be what Merlin said. Keep the stage parameter assets, but update the expression menu assets to not allow you to input more than one. Keeps what people are already familiar with intact and prevents newbies from going "why isn't this working over the network!?".
upper remnant
merging parameters into the file asset is easier, for sure
if you are trying to script your setup
visual dagger
yeah, i think the best in-between would be just a single file slotted on the descriptor
woven goblet
I actually like the one Hira had, keep the parameter asset, but link it in the descriptor instead
visual dagger
but again, we don't know the reasons behind it, it maybe a performance thing
in which case I'll take better performance over the convenience any day
woven goblet
Can always @ tupper and ask why
upper remnant
there is no way to script merging parameters on the descriptor?
near hill
the main downside with not having the parameter assets linked by the menus is that the menus won't know what parameters are available to them like they do right now, but you already have that issue with their current proposed solution they have
if someone made a utility for it, but as-is you can only copy over all the fields on the template descriptor
woven goblet
@upper remnant you can, but then there is that requirement of "Download this"
near hill
☝️
they might just be expecting someone to make some de-facto script that everyone uses to manage things
upper remnant
well im just thinking about it for personal reasons tbh
im solving my own distribution problems
near hill
though they should make it themselves in that case since it's not hard to do and could be included with the main package
upper remnant
yeah
right now im giving all my parameters a unique id based on a naming scheme anyway, because you can put multiple instances of the prefab on your avatar
woven goblet
I could actually update mine to do this, though, I would now have to use my own scriptable object to store the parameters.
upper remnant
so if i could merge those into the descriptor without any manual work it would be nice
have to use unique parameters because child animators
woven goblet
Technically you could just read the animation controller and add all the required parameters to the descriptor
near hill
that depends on the animator, some may have local state parameters that you don't need or don't want to sync
lost niche
I keep forgetting you can have locally animated features
upper remnant
i can be selective about it and exclude parameters
lost niche
Having an aiming reticle for animations that only you can see could be nifty
visual dagger
I think in the grand scheme of things, the majority of users will never need to merge that much, having a note on your emote toggle download that says "You need to add ThisParameter to your descriptor" should be sufficient for most.
In cases where you might want to duplicate an entire setup to a new avatar, a simple script should be able to read one and write to the other
woven goblet
But no one reads it - This real even for readme in shared packages
visual dagger
Ok, but if they aren't reading at least a little, they won't know to drag that file into the descriptor either
so it's the same thing
and in cases where they're merging, it's not that simple anyway
so they still have to read it and add them manually
opaque sequoia
Just out of curiosity, how many people would be interested if I made an Editor script for automatically combining Animators together? No promises on this happening.
woven goblet
opaque sequoia
Oh I didn't realize one already existed