avatar-optimization

[glad aurora]

For my hair texture looking better in game, are there any tips for making my material or texture better in unity? Like a setting or something?

[amber hemlock]

https://vrchat.canny.io/bug-reports/p/1281-texture-memory-stat-doesnt-include-textures-from-matswaps-and-animations

Not a new bug, just pointing it out

The SDK and in-game VRAM readout is incorrect and only adds up textures currently on the avatar, ignoring extra ones that come in with animations (even though they sit in VRAM as well)

This means an avatar excellent rated in VRAM could actually be Very Poor in VRAM

[zealous wigeon]

Server-side checking of avatars will at least be fixing that issue after upload, but yeah, SDK still an issue.

[amber hemlock]

Isn't server-side pref ranks already turned on for new uploads?

[zealous wigeon]

It is turned on, but I have been assuming the live client doesn't understand it yet.

Most noticeable thing would be that "Avatars that exceed your performance rank limit won't be downloaded", but would need to find avatars that have been scanned to test that.

[amber hemlock]

Easy enough to do myself. brb

[zealous wigeon]

Can't find anyone who has checked whether the server-side check catches the extra VRAM, sure hope it does.

[amber hemlock]

Checking now

If it doesn't, I guess I can file it as a beta bug.

[zealous wigeon]

Would definitely be a bug, would be wasteful if it wasn't checking such things.

[amber hemlock]

Bad news. Uploaded using the Beta SDK, viewed on the Beta client - Thry's calculator shown as well to see true vram

So either server checking doesn't check alt mat swaps, or server checking isn't turned on. Or server checked values are still calculated locally at upload time?

Who knows.

[zealous wigeon]

If this was a newly uploaded avatar then it might not have been checked yet and is sitting in the queue.

[amber hemlock]

It was just updated, but I updated it seconds ago

I'll check back tomorrow I guess!

[zealous wigeon]

Sure would be useful if they gave us a tick or something that a avatar has been server-side checked, would have been real useful for beta testing.

[amber hemlock]

That's a good feature request. could put it next to the features of the avatar like eyelook

[zealous wigeon]

Don't think it needs to be that prominent, it just needs to be visible somewhere.

Ideally every avatar should have it, so would make it visual noise.

[limpid cargo]

what if instead of an icon for if it is server side checked, we have an icon for if it isn't

[rancid lodge]

Would it be more optimized to add multiple uv maps for UV discards (poiyomi) or have multiple blendshapes to stop clipping on a piece of clothing? I need three and i was wondering if having too many uv maps was bad for performance.

[radiant shadow]

blends worse, uv discard can do multiple toggles with 1 uv

[bronze lantern]

Avoid blendshapes toggles especially when the mesh is above ~30k polys

[toxic needle]

might have stumbled across an issue with UV. I have 2 separate materials that each use a different UV layer, but when I try to toggle one the other is triggered as well. Is this a bug or a limitation?

[marble rain]

Uv Discard is fairly useless. and requires a special shader like poiyomi to be useful. ontop of that you would need to recreate your UV map in blender. and its not recommended. however doing blendshapes is recommend over adding extra uv maps and materials and mesh renderer. all of those things combined still takes up memory(ram) and vram.

[marble rain]

thats not correct. there is no downside to it. apart from a small vram cost.

[bold wharf]

Yes there is

[marble rain]

no not really

[bold wharf]

Until we start using unity 2021

https://gist.github.com/d4rkc0d3r/f77c1e96d4aeefd0d1eaf13fb096a2de

[marble rain]

yea i have seen that one

[bold wharf]

Then you will see there is a signifigant increase in frame time when not splitting meshes on unity 2019

[marble rain]

there is no thing such as active or inactive blendshapes.

[bold wharf]

Proof

[marble rain]

its either just weight 0 or 1. or inbetween.

its a temporary cost

[bold wharf]

Even assuming you're correct, a temporary cost is still a cost

[marble rain]

compared to a fixed cost

[bold wharf]

also I can say with near certainty that in avatars poiyomi is the most used shader

[marble rain]

and also 10 blendshapes will never take up 0.86 ms of frametime.

otherwise every single avatar that exist would take up 1 + ms of frametime just from having face animations that uses blendshapes.

[bold wharf]

Yes, they don't because they split their meshes

[marble rain]

no

[bold wharf]

Yep

[marble rain]

again no

have you ever been in a room with 40 people?

[bold wharf]

And if they don't then their mesh isn't 155k polys, like is being used in that example

[marble rain]

your cpu/gpu does not suddenly get a 40 + ms of frametime.

there is a reason why you lag like crazy when you load in someone with to many meshes/materials.

even as few as 10 materials can cause an issue in a world of 40 people.

[bold wharf]

Yeah?

Hows that relevant though? We're talking about blendshapes not materials

[marble rain]

eh

its 100% relevant

if you have 10 pieces of clothes.

[bold wharf]

And if you're going to say oh but uv tile discard needs a lot of materials

you get 16 discards per uv map

Thats 16 toggles

[buoyant holly]

disabling animations would also disable blendshapes so the requiring the safety settings to show Avatar does not have too much relevance

[marble rain]

and barely anyone uses it

[bold wharf]

What

[marble rain]

uv discard is not to useful

[buoyant holly]

and also literally the most popular vrchat Shader has UV discard as an option

[marble rain]

yep but again do you personally see people use it?

prob not

and what if your not showing someones shader.

your avatar is broken

visually.

[buoyant holly]

how would I know how their toggles work looking at strangers

[marble rain]

what if your in worlds with quest users

[buoyant holly]

if you don't show someone's animations blendshape would be broken as well

[marble rain]

they wont be able to see it

[buoyant holly]

Quest avatars don't really have the budget to be having lots of toggles

[marble rain]

quest cant use uv discard lol

[bold wharf]

Quest avatars don't have a lot of techniques used for optimisation, such as constraining props from, say, your back to your hip.

[buoyant holly]

the fixed vram budget of the quest avatars kind of prevents you from having a whole lot of stuff anyway

[marble rain]

no. the vram is not an issue

its processing power.

the quest 2 cpu/gpu cant really handle much.

[bold wharf]

Yes

[buoyant holly]

so basically having toggles on a quest avatars a moot point

[bold wharf]

So we both agree you shouldn't have lots of toggles on quest which means this uv tile argument is a moot point then?

[marble rain]

discard the quest as a option.

[buoyant holly]

then no reason not to use UV discard

[marble rain]

you can have toggles on. but then it wont be quest performant.

[bold wharf]

Yep

[marble rain]

well it can be

[bold wharf]

So for an optimised quest avatar you shouldn't have lots of toggles

[marble rain]

nah just dont have more then 1 material

and 10k polygons

etc.

[bold wharf]

Yep

[buoyant holly]

that leaves you like no budget for multiple outfits

so basically that would just be toggling props on and off

[marble rain]

which is why u cant do uv discard either.

[bold wharf]

What?

[marble rain]

takes up to much vram cost.

[bold wharf]

No

[marble rain]

yep

[bold wharf]

Quest doesn't have any custom shader support

[marble rain]

and that to.

[bold wharf]

Thats why we can't do uv tile discard

[buoyant holly]

so the quest is entirely Irrelevant for the UV discard question

[bold wharf]

thats the only reason we cant

With that in mind

https://feedback.vrchat.com/feature-requests/p/uv-tile-discard-for-quest-shaders

[marble rain]

wouldn't really make alot of sense

[bold wharf]

Why not?

[marble rain]

polygon budget. is to low

[buoyant holly]

and as I mentioned already blend shapes and bones are not immune to being stripped off of avatars

[marble rain]

they are through.

just the animation is

[bold wharf]

What if you're making a heavily stylized avatar?

[marble rain]

if you disable animation nothing breaks. cause no animation can be played.

[marble rain]

as in like what?

[bold wharf]

Low poly aesthetic?

[marble rain]

how low?

[buoyant holly]

yes but that's assuming they set up the Avatar in a way that had a sensible outfit combo with no animations

[bold wharf]

Ala Deep Rock Galactic or something

[marble rain]

which is most likely within the budget anyway.

[bold wharf]

Yes

[marble rain]

1 material needed only

[bold wharf]

Yes

[buoyant holly]

like pretty much all the public avatars

[marble rain]

what public avatars?

you mean those with 50-100 materials each :D?

1+ million polygons etc?

[bold wharf]

With UV tile discard they could keep it at 1 material and have lots of toggles on this heavily stylised low poly avatar.

[buoyant holly]

the tab that says public in the Avatar tab in vrchat

[marble rain]

you would run into a polygon limit regardless. and a vram cost to.

[buoyant holly]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/847243121837998091/1095823063511216278/allSubs.png

[marble rain]

oh yea all of those

i thought u ment the really terrible public once lol

[bold wharf]

Nope, as discussed this hypothetical avatar is heavily stylized and is super low poly.

[marble rain]

give an example of polygon requirement

30k?

[buoyant holly]

15k

[bold wharf]

Thats what it is to hit good on quest? I can't remember.

[marble rain]

right the avatar it self is prob going to be 15k.

[bold wharf]

Lmao

No dude

[marble rain]

yea dude.

[bold wharf]

You can make avatars that are low poly

[marble rain]

15k is low poly lol.

[bold wharf]

Again they'd just be heavily stylized

I'm talking 1k

Give me a second

[marble rain]

1k you cant make anything decent looking

[buoyant holly]

like a lot of PS2 characters were using that budget

[bold wharf]

Ok thats subjective

[marble rain]

yea and ps2 characters looked like crap lol.

[buoyant holly]

here's a PS2 character https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/YUrSX2V.N5hvnUv3QdHmOA--~B/Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTQ5Mjt3PTg3NTthcHBpZD15dGFjaHlvbg--/https://media-mbst-pub-ue1.s3.amazonaws.com/creatr-uploaded-images/2021-11/72bd9d90-40aa-11ec-97ff-2938552f2032.cf.jpg

[bold wharf]

This character is sub 5k polys I'd say it looks pretty good

[marble rain]

that i can agree to. looks nice

[bold wharf]

So we both agree you can make good looking extremely low poly characters then?

[marble rain]

obviously and i never said u cant

but 1k is stretching it

[bold wharf]

I couldn't find the exact one I was thinking of cause its on booth and i don't know japanese to be able to search for it

so that one will have to do

[marble rain]

and it would look really bad in vr . lol

[bold wharf]

Dude god bless TrixxedHeart

Heres a 1k poly avatar

[marble rain]

it only looks decent cause the viewing angle and resolution back then

[bold wharf]

Its pretty stylized

[marble rain]

yea that it is

[marble rain]

eww he looks even worse in 4k lol

[bold wharf]

But anyways this topic has majorly digressed

UV Tile discard is far from useless. The VRAM cost of using another UV map is hardly anything. The performance increase of not using blendshapes + not even needing to render the polys affected when toggled off are worth it

[marble rain]

you dont really render the polygons anyway.

[marble rain]

its occluded since its most likely hidden away inside you

[bold wharf]

Nope

[marble rain]

yep

[bold wharf]

Since its still apart of the same mesh, it won't be hidden

[buoyant holly]

avatars would only have frustum culling not occlusion culling

[bold wharf]

Same bounding box and all

[marble rain]

regardless of it.

[buoyant holly]

so stuff hidden by blendshapes are still getting rendered

[marble rain]

your paying a price for UV still

[bold wharf]

Sure, but its lower than blendshapes

[marble rain]

depends.

[bold wharf]

Not really

[marble rain]

yep really.

[buoyant holly]

blendshapes also affect vram

[bold wharf]

Mmhm

[marble rain]

very little

[bold wharf]

Nah I forgor to delete the blendshapes off my body mesh once and my vram jumped up by a solid 10mb

[marble rain]

like uv discard is not something magical. it has a steep cost in having to rerender and potentially other things.

[buoyant holly]

yes as every single blendshape has to duplicate the whole Avatar all over again vertices wise

[bold wharf]

But the point of UV tile discard is that it doesn't render things?

[marble rain]

it does through

[bold wharf]

Explain

[marble rain]

when you switch out

like whatever you switch. still has to be rendered again

i agree it only renders what is shown

but it still has to

[bold wharf]

Well of course you have to render whats shown???

How else do you see things/???

[marble rain]

i am saying rerender.

[bold wharf]

What

[buoyant holly]

also checking you can just use UV 1 uv discard so it doesn't even necessarily incur a vram cost of extra uv Maps

[marble rain]

well depends on the UV size. like if you got 16 toggles.

or toggleable.

that UV will get fairly big.

[bold wharf]

Sir

UV discard or not

You will always have a UV map

[marble rain]

anyway also. UV discard does not allow for any special interactions as far as i am concerned.

[bold wharf]

What do you mean special interactions?

[marble rain]

had it on my tongue imao.

kinda forgot lol

[buoyant holly]

you're not adding extra vertices to store a extra UV map if using uv1

[marble rain]

oh right. uv discard limitations is that you cant really do much within that one shader. unless other effects like emissions and such can use a different UV channel. which even then wouldn't work with uv discard right?

[bold wharf]

Poiyomi is literally the most versatile shader out there

[marble rain]

i know.

i am litterly using it

[buoyant holly]

like literally that's the most popular toon Shader

[bold wharf]

Then you should know what you just said is literally misinformation

[marble rain]

no

[bold wharf]

Can't Really do much within that one shader

[buoyant holly]

how would the UV discard break emissions

[bold wharf]

You can do pretty much everything within that one shader

[marble rain]

as in affecting the 16 different toggles thats what i mean lol

like what if you have 16 different things you want emission for.

you can only control what is it now 3 or 4 at best?

[buoyant holly]

UV discard should have no effect on the controllability of any of the rest of the Shader?

especially since you can specify which uv Maps to use for controlling various special effects

so any weird layouts used from uv discard would have no effect on like your emissive scrolling

[marble rain]

and i return to the original. do you actually ever hear people use it? talk about it or have seen it being used?

[bold wharf]

Yes

[marble rain]

would anyone use it since it breaks your visually look unless shader is active

[buoyant holly]

honestly you shouldn't be having mutually exclusive objects on one Avatar anyway

so a scenario where your avatar would look stupid because everything is turned on is not advisable because carrying your entire wardrobe around on one Avatar is bad for vram

[bold wharf]

I'm kinda biased for this because I'm staunchly in the "1 avatar per outfit" group of people

[marble rain]

kinda the same lol

[bold wharf]

I log in, choose how I want to look, then play the rest of the day in that avatar.

[marble rain]

i only ever have one outfit. if any.

[buoyant holly]

yeah if you're only doing one outfit it's not the end of the world if your hat is toggle on for strangers who have stripped off your Shader

[marble rain]

but with uv discard it would show all of it at once through?

if shader is not on

[buoyant holly]

yes and I'm saying designing a outfit combo where everything turned on look stupid is a bad idea in general

and stripping off your animation controllers probably going to make a mess of your outfit

[marble rain]

no

since its disabled by default.

not animation controlled.

[buoyant holly]

well that would be dependent on how someone constructed it

[marble rain]

sorta yea

[buoyant holly]

as I have bumped into people whose outfits looked in a stupid configuration with the animation controller turned off

[bold wharf]

Thats simply a skill issue tbh for the most part

[marble rain]

thats rarely the case through.

[buoyant holly]

you can't really make a qualitative statement like that as you can only look at like what your people in your instances do

[marble rain]

eh.

of all the time i used vrc i have yet to see one that is broken with animation turned off

[buoyant holly]

Tupper mention to fixing a bug that was causing wardrobe malfunctions in one of the Patch videos so it was happening often enough for them to notice

[marble rain]

wardrobe?

as in a collection of clothes i assume?

[buoyant holly]

or like the outfit not showing up at all so you're naked

[marble rain]

thats just because someone made the animator turn it off i assume which is obviously kinda bad.

[buoyant holly]

also I kind of notice the poking up a UV discard documentation all the videos scenarios are showing just turning off parts of a singular outfit not trying to toggle multiple outfits

[marble rain]

also if you want to see a proper blendshape test. which is still in the unity editor search this on youtube or google "Unity Blendshapes Stress Test" a 380k tris and 250 blendshapes. and it barely impacts performance. cant really link the video since its not sfw lol.

[buoyant holly]

https://www.poiyomi.com/vid/special-fx/uv-tile-discard_setup_unity1.mp4

[marble rain]

yea i saw that.

[buoyant holly]

so that might be a bit on the that's your own fault territory if you're putting multiple mutually exclusive stuff on the same Avatar

[marble rain]

i never do that

[buoyant holly]

then what's the harm if the Shader get stripped off

[marble rain]

and if i did i would control it by ensuring that no two things can be enabled if it occupies the same space.

if shader is off it would just show all textures within that uv discard i imagine?

[buoyant holly]

so the Avatar would just have all their stuff toggled on

[marble rain]

yep and look wierd AF

[buoyant holly]

but you just said you're only like wearing one outfit on the avatar

[marble rain]

in my case yea.

but i was thinking in broad terms.

and if i only have one outfit i would still go the blendshape way. since i still need to render the polygons for UV discard.

[buoyant holly]

then if we're talking a hypothetical General audience we could also deal with people doing stupid things as far as their animation controller Construction

[marble rain]

and people will do that alot rainwolf.

[bold wharf]

The whole point of UV tile discard is that it doesn't render when its not active.

[marble rain]

they want a fast solution that isnt to much work.

[marble rain]

again when you choose to change that is.

[bold wharf]

And if you mean render when it is active, no matter what solution you pick for toggling thats always gonna be the case

Because if you want to see something it needs to be rendered

[marble rain]

yep

[bold wharf]

So what are you saying with this then?

since i still need to render the polygons for UV discard.

[buoyant holly]

https://ask.vrchat.com/t/developer-update-30-march-2023/17186

one of the developer blog post literally calls out performance concerns about shape keys

[marble rain]

biggest concern is material/drawcalls.

[bold wharf]

Yep

Nobodys disagreeing with that

[marble rain]

i would love for them to show proper numbers on how bad they have seen it.

or what scenarioes it includes.

[bold wharf]

Proper numbers for what? Blendshapes or drawcalls?

[marble rain]

how bad its affecting performance.

[bold wharf]

Yeah but for what

Blendshapes or drawcalls

[marble rain]

blendshapes and drawcalls

[bold wharf]

Well there is a proper numbers for blendshapes

[marble rain]

not really.

[bold wharf]

https://gist.github.com/d4rkc0d3r/f77c1e96d4aeefd0d1eaf13fb096a2de

[marble rain]

i know

[bold wharf]

Heres the numbers

Its there

[marble rain]

and those are far from proper.

[bold wharf]

How so?

[marble rain]

the only reason why i can say that is cause of this video you need to search for

Unity Blendshapes Stress Test google that

and take the youtube video with a wierd red creation

[buoyant holly]

so what makes the video particularly better than the text stats?

[bold wharf]

Do you know what unity version that was on?

[marble rain]

that is from a earlier version

the video is from 2020

[marble rain]

350k + tris. and 250 blendshapes. active every frame only caused that person around 0.7 ms of cpu frametime.

however for gpu i cant say.

and thats in the editor even. which is not a desireable way to test things either as the unity editor does take up resources and can screw with results.

[buoyant holly]

also there's a bit of a difference between just one homunculus creature in the room and 20 like you would encounter on vrchat

[marble rain]

there is. for sure. but that is still viable. if you have 20 of them sure the performance degrade is high. but thats assuming you do 250 blendshapes per frame changing every frame which is unlikely

at most your not changing that many.

and as long as high material / mesh renders causes such massive lag spikes when someone changes into one. well. then its not worth going that route.

[drowsy dirge]

afaik none of this is gonna matter after vrc goes to 2021 yeah?

in terms of shape key stuff and splitting meshes for that, i mean

[marble rain]

it wont matter to much no.

[normal nova]

Blend shapes are still have some cost on 2021.3, but vastly improved over 2019

(vram cost in particular isn't changed, I believe?)

[marble rain]

Vram cost slightly changes to. it mainly has extreme improves in terms of raw processing cost. overall blendshapes will be alot more viable in 2021.3 compared to now. like i only recommend blendshapes for low vertices count. not something massive.

[drowsy dirge]

yeah, i was more curious about the silly splitting meshes thing

i don't really go above 32k tris tho anymore lol

[clever comet]

does the size of contacts affect performance?

[somber raven]

Nope, it’s only the amount of Contact Components you have. You can make your Contact Radius as large as you need it to be.

[quaint barn]

hi, I use a bunch of costumes which is replacing whole body. That's basically means I have head as basis and multiple skinned meshes as bodies. Is there any good way to optimize it without make a bunch of the same avatars in different costumes?
I though about merge them into one mesh and use blendshapes to hide costumes but when you try to shrink complicated rigged mesh it still trying to reach bones by some vertices and that's a visual mess so I don't use that much.
Also hide them by shader also not an option cause all costumes use singular atlas texture and I want to hold avatar be as much identical for quest users as it is for pc users.
Any tips?

[sick relic]

Should just let them be separate skinned mesh, it actually saves more performance this way.

[marble rain]

has anyone animated UV discards yet? as it does not seem to animate as expected

[bold wharf]

Are you marking the property as animated?

Gotta do that otherwise it won't work when it gets locked

[marble rain]

yea i am. however i am a little confused as to how i can add the keyframe for it, since the model has 4 materials. and i honestly cant seem to find out if its affecting all materials or just one. and also only one skinned mesh renderer

oh nvm. now it changes. i just cant seem to see it in the shader editor.

[marble rain]

hmm. something is either wrong or something else for mine. it enables the clothes that are not suppose to show.

[drifting turtle]

what shader are you using? keyframing material property changes will affect all materials on a given mesh

poiyomi has a feature to rename animated properties when you lock the materials to get around this

https://www.poiyomi.com/general/locking#rename-animated
if you wanna read more about it

[radiant shadow]

• keyframing material property changes will affect all materials on a given mesh < it wont if you lock material, just dont have animate set on the other

[marble rain]

i am aware.

also in poiyomi the copy property as keyframe does not seem to work.

[marble rain]

so i assume this would rename it with the given material name? as suffix? if i understand it

[drifting turtle]

have you tried hitting record then just clicking in the shader? that's how I record my changes

[drifting turtle]

yea I think that's how it works with the current version

but you gotta lock the material for this to happen

so mark as RA, then lock material, then record the keyframe

[marble rain]

ooh okay. so RA and then record keyframe. got it. gonna try that.

something was differently missing in terms of guidance lol.

[drifting turtle]

good luck!

[marble rain]

hmm it does work now, but it shows as if clothes are on by default and i have turned them off in the shader.

[drifting turtle]

what do you mean?

[marble rain]

so in the shader. i have it set to default to clothes off. but whenever i test it, it shows them as if the clothes are on. and the animation is reversed so it takes off the clothes instead of on

[drifting turtle]

👀

so the clothes are being animated to on when you want them to be off?

[marble rain]

yep. for some reason

[drifting turtle]

sounds like an animation somewhere in your fx layer

or are you just testing one single animation?

[marble rain]

two different once.

but i can see nothing else interacts with it

[drifting turtle]

[marble rain]

hmm, the shader says they are float values. but i assume a boolean works just fine for it as parameter?

unless it needs to be a float

[drifting turtle]

you use 0 or 1 to toggle it in the keyframe

since it's a toggle

[marble rain]

yee so that is correct.

do you need a on and off animation for it? or does one work just fine. cause that is the only thing i can think of atm

hold up..

a toggle. resets value to 0.

fucking hell makes sense

as to why it says on 😄

i need to do everything reversed then

lol

[drifting turtle]

if you're using wd off, you need to animate both on and off states

with wd on, you don't need the animate the default state

[marble rain]

wd is on

but thats what i mean. because i use toggle. and i animate on only

and since 0 in discard is considered to be the default showing value i have to reverse it

[drifting turtle]

you can also make an animation for the default state ^^

[marble rain]

yep

[toxic needle]

blend trees RULE yall

its beautiful, 14 layers condensed into one

[cold yarrow]

Hell yes they do

[mint topaz]

is this what happiness feels like?

[pliant pawn]

I don't know if this goes here but I wanted to ask if baking a character is a common practice in VRC

because rn my model only has 5.9k vertices but I would totally get more iterations of subdivision which will make the model more smooth and fun

[sick relic]

It isn't common because many people don't have ability or knowledge to do. It's recommended. If you can bake, then bake it.

[heady smelt]

Ayo

[marble rain]

baking as many things as possible without ruining the avatars look is something nearly everyone who wishes a good performant avatar does. like baking in the Normal map, AO maps etc and just overall reducing complexity.

[toxic needle]

is there a bake guide that is more comprehensive and just "press CATS button"? It definitely hasnt worked the way I intended the times I've used it

[pliant pawn]

@marble rain @sick relic thanks, you two. It’s just weird because I’m only now learning about baking and no avatar tutorials ever talk about it

[radiant shadow]

old one - note i didnt move uv's much as its an exsample and keeping the vid short , how to bake from an atlas since setting up every material one at a time is tedious, can seperate those after

(matcombiner tab keeps everything 1:1 - cats do not , tend to get a odd resolution that but its just temporary anyway)

theres a much more uv packed one exsample

[toxic needle]

I gave up on cats atlases a long time ago

oh damn

that is thicc

[marble rain]

i dont think so? but the cats bake i never used. i only use it to make atlas and material combine

[distant osprey]

Question VRAM Usage
If an avi has 350mb Texture Memory but 10 different outfits - do the 350mb are always loaded or only the texture memory for the currently playing outfits?

[marble rain]

yes. they have to load into memory as long as you download it

regardless of them being on or not.

[late quiver]

Alright, I have a question about skinned mesh renderers.

Basically, I am a really big fan of Adam Smasher, and I wanted to improve my model further by adding damage states. Keep in mind this is going to be as quest compatible as possible. For most of his armor I have rigged up bones to shrink to make the armor disappear, however because the arm is controlled by the armature this isn't possible for him losing his arm. Had bad would the performance jump be if I were to separate his left arm into its own skinned mesh, currently the avatar is sitting at 43mb of VRAM on PC and 10mb on Quest.

So the total would go from 2 to 3 skinned mesh renderers for both Quest and PC

[marble rain]

you kinda want to max out at 1 or 2 for quest i believe.

but it shouldnt be to bad

unless you have alot of materials

[late quiver]

Well...
I have very tiny textures. 512 most of time. But they are more numerous then Id want.

I'll ask in quest optimization to see what's the best way to test quest avatars

I feel like I need to test to be sure.

[marble rain]

make a material atleast instead

[distant osprey]

ty ❤️

[uncut tree]

theoretically, what is more performant: two meshes, or one mesh that has a blendshape that changes it to the other's shape

[proper grail]

core concept wise blendshapes were designed to have one mesh in multiple shapes to solve the issue of using multiple meshes for this

[uncut tree]

right

and yet a blendshape makes a mesh a "skinned mesh renderer"

which is heavier somehow

[proper grail]

well, an armature makes a skinned mesh renderer. Regular mesh do not support blendshapes

It piggybacks off the whole deformation dohicky they do

idunno, weird question. Blendshapes are deff better than a whole nother mesh doing the same thing

[marble rain]

blendshapes when it changes otherwise two meshes. but it depends on how many vertices.

[marble rain]

because blendshapes depend on mesh renderer

[normal nova]

Just a note, Bake has been forked off into a separate plugin since I wasn't able to push releases on the old one, leading to it being way out of date. You can find it here: https://github.com/feilen/tuxedo-blender-plugin

(also a ton of features were added since the last CATS release, you can see them on the release page!)

[zealous wigeon]

So I have been meaning to report this as a bug, but just wanted to note it anyway, the Manual mode for the baking doesn't seem to work, it just UV unwrapped it anyway, anything you happen to know I did wrong?

[normal nova]

Uhh, on newer-er versions there's a totally fixed space mode

I forget what it's called. 'Manual' is a bit of a bad name, it actually takes whatever UV maps named 'Target' it can find and bakes to them.

I am very bad at naming things

[zealous wigeon]

Doesn't seem like it worked with my fbx at least.
Had a snuggly atlased UVMap named "Target", but when I did the baking it just made its own UVMap, like it does with the default.

Was a complete accident I learned about how manual worked.

[normal nova]

Yeah. There's another option, 'Manual' still rearranges

[zealous wigeon]

Can't say I can find any other manual setting than this one

[normal nova]

Are you on tuxedo-blender-plugin?

[zealous wigeon]

Yeah

[normal nova]

well heck can't remember where it went then. I'll look into it when I have a moment

[zealous wigeon]

Ok.
I am in no rush.

[buoyant holly]

Glad to know it's not just me having this problem

[zealous wigeon]

I can mirror those feelings, always a chance that I've managed to do something wrong.

[buoyant holly]

Hopefully it can be figured out relatively soon because that's a helpful feature

[brisk niche]

I have a very odd issue xD

I have a friend I am attempting to help optimize his Nardoragon (Shows up as using 1200 MB of VRAM WTF!?).

I brought most of his textures down to 2k or less and while the download size of the avatar is now alot lower, for some reason the avatar's texture memory usage is still above 800mb....I'm also using VRCfury to bake his non-animated blendshapes into the mesh at upload, so its definitely not a blendshape issue. Thry's avatar tools is reporting a negative value when checking his texture memory. I'm at a loss for words hahaha, please help.

Okay, update, I deleted a backpack mesh he had on his avatar and that seemed to have fixed it. Something with the fbx?

[crimson topaz]

It could've been that the mesh was incredibly high poly, everything that comes on an avatar has a "cost" of some kind, even meshes themselves

[zealous wigeon]

If it was newly imported and that backpack for some reason had blendshapes on it, then legacy blendshapes could have brought it up that high.

It is one of the things VRChat forced you to autofix in the SDK before upload.

[sharp blaze]

so a while back i found out i could use blendshapes to lower the meshes count on toggles, and i would like to learn how to do that, could someone help me out?

[surreal oxide]

So unity hates me and decided to randomly increase the file size of the model. So whats the best way to get 3 MBs of an avatar?
All textures have been crunch compressed with increased the file size.

[sick relic]

Polygon and blendshape count also contribute to fil size

[buoyant holly]

https://twitter.com/BlizzyFoxo/status/1655354885926264834?s=20

Blizzy (@BlizzyFoxo)

@poiyomi shaders have the ability to use a color mask for detail normals. I really wish more people would use this. You can use absolutely tiny maps and still have the detail you want. 10 times less VRAM usage for the normal map on this sweater INCLUDING the mask!

Twitter · May 7, 2023, 11:32 PM

[amber hemlock]

Is there a macro for this or are you just insane

I really want to know how to set these up, can I get a full res pic of it?

[dull sonnet]

Anyone know what this problem is?

Poiyomi and standerd isn't supported its saying but every avi its works fine on i have no idea what to do

[urban veldt]

can someone help me upload a 3d model to vrchat so I can use it as a skin?

[mint topaz]

no

its against TOS

it also links both accounts

[cold yarrow]

It says "hidden" so it might be a locked Poiyomi, go click on the material and if it says "unlock shader" at the top, do that and try again

[toxic needle]

No macro, just ADHD and severe lack of time management skills (even though I'm pretty sure it takes less time than individual animator layers).
When I get home I'll send the pic and the doc I used to learn it

Vrcfury supposedly has a blendtree automator that you could look into, but I just use it for gestures and applying gogoloco

[amber hemlock]

Much appreciated! I'm sure I could set them up manually; I just need to "get" the logic of it and I could probably get a macro that converts existing controllers

[toxic needle]

https://notes.sleightly.dev/dbt-combining/

Also I found it

[marble rain]

@toxic needle just remember a bigger animation layer is not better then multiple once

[rain matrix]

That is literally not true

You need literally thousands of states and transitions to get even close to the performance impact of a single layer

And even if you manage to fill your layer to the point it causes enough frametime increase to contest a layer, splitting the logic across a second layer would literally make it worse

[pale pollen]

https://notes.sleightly.dev/benchmarks/

if you wanna read up on it

👍

[rain matrix]

In every situation that you can afford to get rid of a layer, you should do iy

[pale pollen]

yep yep

[rain matrix]

If a layer can be combined with another one, do it

[toxic needle]

In this case they are exclusively 2 or 3-state toggles and hue shift type animations, exactly the situation the benchmarks are comparing

[pale pollen]

there's literally no situation I've seen/heard of where multiple layer would be better preforming that a single one, it's just that doing it in a single layer can be pretty feature limited comparatively.

[pale pollen]

but yea, don't take the dbt thing too far, there's def a point where it's just impractical to do everything in a dbt

[toxic needle]

is that a challenge?

[pale pollen]

lol

I mean, your problem of maintaining it xD

[toxic needle]

@amber hemlock here's the closeup
Direct blendtree -> direct blendtree (organisation level) -> 1d blend and toggle animations

[onyx harness]

wdym

[pale pollen]

when I say "too far" I'm only really talking about complexity and not amount though

:^ )

[onyx harness]

True, I am having some issue integrating some things into this

[pale pollen]

I'm not quite at your level, but yk, not too far off:

[onyx harness]

I mean, 2/3s of mine is just AAPs

I feel like you win here

[pale pollen]

oh yea, I haven't gotten to making them smooth xD

need to do that for my dissolves

[rain matrix]

The lag

[onyx harness]

it's, horrific. I just navigate using the inspector now. Have only opened it to take this picture (which is like 3 pictures fused together)

[marble rain]

eh yea it is lol. bigger more complex layers of animations will not only be more wasted resources it also takes up more download size etc. plus with only one layer you cant mask out parts of the avatar it should or should not affect.

and second. the only reason to use blend trees is to blend motions that are similar and do not require a mask for example

[rain matrix]

Bro has no idea what they're talking about

[marble rain]

thats what you think lol

[rain matrix]

Bet

Show me your numbers

Since you obviously benchmarked this

[marble rain]

your opinion does not matter. facts does

[rain matrix]

Okay then show me the facts

[marble rain]

google it

[rain matrix]

Nope you made the statement you have to prove it

[marble rain]

not really

[rain matrix]

I'm not doing your research

[marble rain]

nor am i doing yours

[rain matrix]

Well I made mine lol

[marble rain]

you never did

[rain matrix]

I have all the numbers

[marble rain]

which numbers

[rain matrix]

We know that layers are extremely performance heavy

States are not

Transitions are not

[marble rain]

thats what you think

[rain matrix]

Layer masks do nothing to performance

[marble rain]

oh they do

[rain matrix]

My guy

[marble rain]

they mask out parts that should not be animated

[rain matrix]

You don't know what you're talking about

[marble rain]

sure

[rain matrix]

You can test this in 2 minutes

[marble rain]

go ahead and think that

[rain matrix]

You're talking big talk but having nothing to prove it

Spreading misinformation helps no one

You're actively hurting this games performance

[marble rain]

i dont need to prove something that is facts lol

proof is out there

[rain matrix]

You can't just say something is a fact without proving it

You have showed 0 sources

[marble rain]

and your just spreading misinformation lol

[rain matrix]

Nope

[marble rain]

yep

[rain matrix]

Well here's the performance graph for layers

As you can see each layer increases frametime by a substantial amount

Keeping layer count as low as possible has highest priority

In comparison here's a single layer with a direct blendtree

If you combine layers into a single blendtree on a single layer, performance exponentially increases

[marble rain]

the increase is neglectable

[rain matrix]

It is not

[marble rain]

oh it is

[rain matrix]

And even if it was

You're still wrong

[marble rain]

nope

[rain matrix]

You're spreading misinformation

[marble rain]

again no

[rain matrix]

💀

You're clearly Trolling

[marble rain]

nope

but your clearly spreading information that isnt correct.

you can even see it on the one you linked yourself

100 layers only takes up 0.003 ms. going to 200 its a small increase of 0.001 ms.

in total majority of people only have around 20-30 layers on average.

[rain matrix]

But it stacks....

[marble rain]

obviously

[rain matrix]

You're loading all layers from all avatars in the instance

[marble rain]

even with 40 people at 30 layers thats only 1200 layers

[rain matrix]

And even then, single layer is still more performance by a huge margin

You saying that it isnt

Is spreading misinformation

[marble rain]

i am not saying its not

i am saying its not worth it increase

[rain matrix]

Less layers is always more performant

You can't just say otherwise

[marble rain]

you can

[rain matrix]

And then show no proof

When there's clearly proof for the opposite

[marble rain]

thats not the point either.

[rain matrix]

If you wanna make an argument, you have to back it up with something other than "trust me bro" especially if you're going up against actual well researched data

[marble rain]

never saying trust me

thats what you said lol

[versed flicker]

why are bros arguing in #avatar-optimization 😭

[rain matrix]

We didn't spend months gathering this data just for someone to spread misinformation

Bro can't admit that he's wrong

That's the only issue

[marble rain]

while i am not lol

go ahead make a single layer with 1000 + toggles and you can see how bad it is

states even.

[rain matrix]

It isn't

It still isn't

[marble rain]

it is lol

[rain matrix]

We literally tested that

On multiple devices

Ingame

In editor

[marble rain]

in editor makes it less valid

[rain matrix]

With different state and layer counts

[rain matrix]

I just said ingame

[marble rain]

still does not matter. to that level.

[rain matrix]

In every single test, in every variation, ingame and in editor, the performance is always better with a single layer

[simple vortex]

hi

[rain matrix]

0 exceptions

Hi Dread

[marble rain]

the difference between 40 people with 30 layers and 40 people with 29 layers and one with direct tree is neglectable at best

[simple vortex]

uploading something with crappy internet give me a moment <3

[sick timber]

what in tarnation

[simple vortex]

DBT is supposed to replace multiple layers not just one

[marble rain]

that is not the point either.

[simple vortex]

I did this

[marble rain]

even if it replaced 10 layers

[simple vortex]

oh wow thanks discord

[marble rain]

the difference is so small its not worth it

[simple vortex]

lovely compression

[sick timber]

Delicious gif

[onyx harness]

that's a crunch gif

[simple vortex]

anyhow that scuffed gif/layer is thousands of transitions, states, conditions yada

[sick timber]

I swear to god my name being common onomatopoeia is going to drive me insane one day

[simple vortex]

size on disk is quite a few MBs and lags in editor
On upload, it gets compressed to like ~300 kb, and doesn't cost any performance

[sick timber]

Damn

[simple vortex]

hundreds of users have that kind of layer, and no one ever reported any performance issues to me

[sick timber]

Unity wth are you doing in the editor

[rain matrix]

Trying to render all that

[sick timber]

True

[rain matrix]

Yeah so basically that's where your wrong, and thats the issue

[marble rain]

nope thats not wrong either

[simple vortex]

Red save your breath
You've already linked your research
https://notes.sleightly.dev/benchmarks/

[rain matrix]

Just because in a vacuum the difference is small, doesn't mean it should be neglected

It's still better performance

[marble rain]

the difference in a 400 layer less vs 40 layers with direct tree is neglectable

[rain matrix]

Idk why this has to be argued further than that

[marble rain]

not saying you shouldnt do it if you can but the difference is so small

[rain matrix]

Okay so? Still do it

[marble rain]

use more time on other areas. first

[simple vortex]

dude plays on 30 frames just let him enjoy it lol

[rain matrix]

Telling people to NOT cut down on layers when they easily can, is harmful

[marble rain]

30 no lol i get 90-120 fps on average

with 40 people lol

[simple vortex]

mhm

yep

[rain matrix]

And then saying shit like "actually multiple layers are MORE performant!" When it's clearly false, you're actively spreading misinformation that sacrifices performance

[vast jackal]

Hello, person who did the benchmarks here, it's not

[marble rain]

there is no mis information.

[vast jackal]

I can show you the automated tests that indicate this, as well as the in game testing i've done to confirm this

[rain matrix]

You literally kept saying that more layers are more performant

[worthy gyro]

by saying not saying you shouldnt do it are you pivoting your argument now from "big layers are worse than more layers" to "the difference is negligible"

[marble rain]

nope

[rain matrix]

Yeah bro is pivoting hard

😭

[marble rain]

sure. think that.

[rain matrix]

This you?

[sick timber]

Also, what if instead of reducing by one layer, everyone went to one layer

[marble rain]

no the point was always neligible.

[simple vortex]

why are stickers allowed but not emojis lol

[civic rapids]

Only frequently used stickers too for some reason

[marble rain]

good for you? want a cookie?

[sick timber]

I’m pretty sure boosters get emoji perms

[simple vortex]

yeah but talking about regular users

[sick timber]

But I have I need nothing else

[rain matrix]

Interesting

[marble rain]

again all of that is true

[sick timber]

in what universe

[civic rapids]

its LITERALLY false

[rain matrix]

The point is that it isn't true and you're harming the games performance by spreading misinformation

[marble rain]

thats also false

[sick timber]

Also wouldn’t using a layer mask affect performance?

[vast jackal]

nope

[glacial creek]

Hey would this channel be a good place to ask about avi megabytes on quest?

[sick timber]

I more meant Unity would have to check the objects in the mask

[sick timber]

Yeah

Here or #quest-optimization

[vast jackal]

i know, but i've tested it, and it's negligable

[rain matrix]

You refuse to state your sources, and you saying that blendtrees are only meant for "blending animations" you clearly showcase that you don't know what you're talking about

[sick timber]

Huh

[rocky kayak]

That very much is NOT true

[vast jackal]

yep

[glacial creek]

Ty yy

[marble rain]

you refuse to actually understand the difference is so small that it does not matter.

[civic rapids]

Its literally not small holy feck.

[simple vortex]

Dear brother, they're either:

• Trolling you
• Trolling you
• God bless their soul

I recommend you guys just encourage reading your research, which you've made to actually save your breath from telling people constantly, and move on.

[marble rain]

it really is lol

[onyx harness]

Yeah careful now, the bot is more sensitive than twitter

[rocky kayak]

Did you run the benchmark tests? Did you go through the months of testing? Did you publish any documentation proving your point?

[marble rain]

looking at the tests they did thats what i am using as reference

looking at the amount of layers vs blendtree

the difference is small.

[rocky kayak]

Do you have any evidence to prove the opposite?

[rain matrix]

I've already concluded this dudes trolling like 10 minutes ago there's no way anyone's this dense

💀

[rocky kayak]

Seriously. Stop spreading the misinformation, my guy. You aren't helping

[civic rapids]

ooga booga me no understand logic ooga booga

[glacial creek]

I was wondering if anyone had tips on quest optimization, i have an avatar that went from 24 megabytes to 14 but ofc we need it at 10. We have removed all exstra outfits and toggles and tried to turn down all the graphics for skin and clothing but were lost otherwise. Any tips?

[marble rain]

again no mis information lol

[marble rain]

your just to dense to read it lol

[rain matrix]

Read what?!?!!?

😭😭

You have linked nothing for me to read

[sick timber]

https://tenor.com/view/youre-your-spies-spies-in-disguise-youre-spies-gif-20405819

[vast jackal]

this I 100% agree with

however, if we spread good information, maybe someone else will do it too and then we have 28 vs 2

maybe after a while we have 5 vs 25

with 30 avatars, almost anything you do with your avatar is "negligible", but if we spread the word on how to properly optimise avatars, maybe those other avatars will also take steps to increased performance, leading to a better optimised game in the end

[civic rapids]

Im starting to think this guy is 14 and just cant read

[marble rain]

how in the world is 0.016 ms vs 0.0060 massive? it is such a small difference that it wont add up to anything

[sick timber]

0.006 adds up across 40 avatars

[rain matrix]

Because you have to stay below 16ms to reach 60fps

[rocky kayak]

Dude, you need to learn basic math

[marble rain]

0.016 is 800 layers in total.

[sick timber]

(This is 0.24 seconds btw)

[rain matrix]

16 ms isn't a lot, your frame budget is very low. Every tiny bit of saved frametime very quickly adds up to... a higher framerate

[simple vortex]

Most of the size is usually textures. You can either downsize them, compress them, change their formats, etc...

[rocky kayak]

Yeah, and how many people can be in an instance? How many layers can each person have?

[vast jackal]

(ms)

[rocky kayak]

You think everyone is running single layer Avis? Most bases have a LOT

[vast jackal]

i see many avatars with 50-100 layers

[marble rain]

are you that dense?

[sick timber]

(Oh)

[marble rain]

no on average is more likely 50

or 60

[hidden shard]

?

[rain matrix]

0.016 ms out of the 16ms you have available if you wanna reach 60fps is a lot if you consider all the other stuff that's going on at the same time

[vast jackal]

okay, let's say 50

50 * 0.016 ms = 0.8 ms
50 * 0.0060 ms = 0.3 ms

that's a difference of 1/30th of your entire frame budget for 60 fps, just for one aniamtor

[marble rain]

no thats not how that works lol

[rain matrix]

💀

[civic rapids]

...

...

[vast jackal]

for single animators, it does

[rocky kayak]

That. . .that's literally how it works

[civic rapids]

Dude literally said no to maths

[sick timber]

Breaking news: maths doesn’t work

[vast jackal]

for multiple, it doesnt scale linearly, that I agree with

[marble rain]

that 0.016 is 800 layers

[marble rain]

not 50 lol

[rocky kayak]

Wha. . .dude, no

[rain matrix]

Math has left the chat

[rocky kayak]

You are a terrible troll

[vast jackal]

no?

800 layers on one animator is 0.016 seconds

not ms

with 800 layers on one animator you can't go above 60 fps

[marble rain]

thats ms lol

[vast jackal]

my friend

i have an avatar with 800 layers on it

hop on vrc if you wanna see

my ign is jellejurre

[marble rain]

and your likely blocked from it

[rain matrix]

🤨

[civic rapids]

...

[rocky kayak]

No, cus I cloned it and tested it

[rain matrix]

Animator layers aren't part of performance stats

[civic rapids]

My brain is melting

[rocky kayak]

I helped with the testing of all this data. . .

[marble rain]

good for you. want a cookie?

[rain matrix]

💀

[rocky kayak]

On a rig that normally gets 144 fps, I was dropped to 30

[rain matrix]

Nahhhhhh this is crazyyyyy

[rocky kayak]

This is beyond dumb

[marble rain]

not gonna happen. from 800 layers lol

[onyx harness]

Yes I would like a cookie. I just had dinner and I'm fitting up for some desert

[rocky kayak]

You got any data to back that up??

[marble rain]

eh yea? go in any public lol

[vast jackal]

I can send you the animator for it

you put it on your avatar in unity and go into play mode

[marble rain]

enable all animators

[vast jackal]

see what happens

[marble rain]

your frames wont drop to 30 from that

[plain furnace]

’lists tested facts'
"Nah man ain't true"

Block and move on lol

[rocky kayak]

Can you prove us wrong? Or are you just gonna sit there with your fingers in your ears and tell us we are wrong.

[marble rain]

are you just gonna sit there and say shit like a kid?

[copper basin]

shh, this is entertaining

[rocky kayak]

I literally helped Jelle test it multiple times. Both in VR and on desktop

[marble rain]

good for you, want that cookie ?

[rocky kayak]

And you think you have more credibility than the guys that wrote papers on it?

[worthy gyro]

https://twitter.com/dtupper/status/1622663759042068480?s=20

tupper (@dtupper)

Keep in mind that if you want to hit 90FPS, you can't breach 11ms ACROSS THE ENTIRE SCENE. 40 people will fill that damn quick.

Twitter · Feb 6, 2023, 6:29 PM

[marble rain]

you quite litterly just said oh 800 layers dropped me from 144 to 30 fps

[rocky kayak]

Which it did

[marble rain]

i highly doubt it

[rocky kayak]

And 1000 dropped me to about 15

[civic rapids]

What do you mean facts and research arent valid arguments?

[marble rain]

if you dropped to 30 from 800 layers you would have less then 30 in every single 40+ instance.

[civic rapids]

Have you ever shown everyones avatar fully....

[rocky kayak]

Gee, it's like I have that exact problem in major lobbies

[copper basin]

his thinkies and feelies > ur facts and research. accept it nerds

[marble rain]

in a instance of 40 people? yea i have

[simple vortex]

Separate layers across multiple avatars is not the same performance cost of separate layers on one avatar

[marble rain]

depending on the world i would have 30-40 fps on average.

[copper basin]

BASED

[marble rain]

with everything on

[rain matrix]

No way you're a game dev

No shot

[marble rain]

dont care if you dont believe that

[hidden shard]

yanderedev hidden discord account discovered

[copper basin]

https://tenor.com/view/gigachad-chad-gif-20773266

[rain matrix]

This is somehow worse than yandere dev

[copper basin]

dont care

[marble rain]

you wish lol

[ivory sluice]

🙃 my fucking god

[rocky kayak]

With the way they've been talking, I'd be surprised if they are over 18. . .

[onyx harness]

Ah, they don't take in editor tests. They prove nothing apparently.

[marble rain]

it does. editor has a overhead cost

[rocky kayak]

No no, it's anything with tangible numbers

[rain matrix]

Self proclaimed game dev
Can't even count frametimes correctly

[marble rain]

self proclaimed? lol. okay kiddo

[civic rapids]

https://tenor.com/view/wheeze-laugh-gif-14359545

[marble rain]

i would be surprised if you were over 16 lol

going into personal assaults is fun shit isnt it

grow up man.

[sick timber]

We literally saw the Unity background processes sitting at 0.4 ms to have the scene exist

[rocky kayak]

Dude, you're the one spreading false info and getting called out for it by not just me.

[marble rain]

nope

[copper basin]

common HostileLogOut W

[onyx harness]

I mean, is someone else claiming it? like a company or official body?
'cause if not then it's self no?

[rocky kayak]

You haven't posted a single shred of evidence

[onyx harness]

there's so many more people watching than I thought

[rocky kayak]

And yet all of us rebutting you have even videos

[marble rain]

and all you have done is posted pointless aggression lol

[rocky kayak]

Even offered to show you in game.

[rocky kayak]

^^^^

Want to rebut that?

[marble rain]

why would i?

i am not an idiot like you lol

[rocky kayak]

Cus it disproves your point

That you've been claiming

This whole time

[marble rain]

never claimed anything

[onyx harness]

220 down to 60, on how many layers? 532?

[rocky kayak]

This you?

[marble rain]

said i dont believe your 800 layer going from 144 > 30

[hidden shard]

you dont need to believe it

[rocky kayak]

This also you?

[hidden shard]

its right infront of your eyes my heavenly child

[civic rapids]

you literally went 180 on your statement

[marble rain]

and here it goes again with your pointless assaults trying to taunt.

[rain matrix]

Hell nah not the victim card pull out of left field

[sick timber]

Damn. Also your shadow gets an animator?
I knew shadows were really bad when it comes to performance already but running multiple animators?

[civic rapids]

@sudden jewel

[rocky kayak]

Not a single person has agreed with you and we have hard evidence against your points.

[marble rain]

no not really.

[simple vortex]

shadow + reflection

[rain matrix]

Not the Tupper tag 😭

[rocky kayak]

Pfff

[marble rain]

going on the full assault now are you?

[sick timber]

well yeah reflections are just generally known to suck performance but still

[vast jackal]

yep

[simple vortex]

no no I meant that your reflection also has an animator

[hidden shard]

waa waaa im a fucking victim cuz i cant admit im wrong

😭

[simple vortex]

so x3 performance cost

[hidden shard]

!!!!

[marble rain]

lol

even more assaults?

[onyx harness]

woah

[copper basin]

several people are typing...

[marble rain]

keep that coming kids.

[rain matrix]

x3

[sick timber]

Yeah that makes sense tho, it has to rerender the scene

[simple vortex]

don't you dare

[sick timber]

But would caching the animator state… right memory allocation is also slow

[rocky kayak]

Isn't even trying to prove their point anymore

[marble rain]

dont really bother lol

cause all that can be thrown from you seems to be shit lol

[onyx harness]

which one? it's changed so many times

[rocky kayak]

Cus you just tried to sound smart with no evidence. But when the people with the evidence and tangible proof came around, suddenly you turned around and played victim. . .

[simple vortex]

idk guys I'm really getting convinced. Maybe I should have many layers?

[rain matrix]

At least 100

[copper basin]

hes gaslighting us

[rocky kayak]

Let me just turn all my systems to individual layers

[rocky kayak]

I'll easily hit 1000 with no downsides

[hidden shard]

hell nah not the wingman systems

[rocky kayak]

VRCBlocks gonna be 2k

[rocky kayak]

Surely there's gonna be NO lag

[cloud imp]

[rocky kayak]

With 15 people all building in once instance

[sick timber]

I’ve learned more about optimisation in this server than when I’m specifically looking for help

[rocky kayak]

I totally won't be at 10fps

Hell, you know what

[hidden shard]

spf

[rocky kayak]

un atlases your avi

[hidden shard]

seconds per frame

[civic rapids]

minutes per frame

[rocky kayak]

I love having a slideshow on my face

[marble rain]

do better then lol

[sick timber]

Someone made an NES emulator that emulates individual transistors so that is possible

[civic rapids]

why...

[rocky kayak]

Jell out hear proving me right again 🤔

It's like we tested this or something

[simple vortex]

idk Jelle that's cheating with so many extra layers and look how much over 30 you are

[sick timber]

No inaccuracies if you emulate the bare metal

[marble rain]

question to sate me being curious how many toggles or states is in each layer?

[hidden shard]

minecraft redstone computer type beat

[vast jackal]

2 states

[rocky kayak]

He showed it before. It's a single toggle per layer

Or did you ignore that too?

[marble rain]

well he did say 2 states lol

no i just ignore everything you say

[rocky kayak]

Yeah, a single toggle

On and off

Any state makes it worse. . .

[worthy gyro]

wait i thought we debunked this

[marble rain]

well yea lol

[vast jackal]

not really, any state transition to self does

[rocky kayak]

Maybe I'm misremembering that specific part.

[vast jackal]

(which is what im running here in all honesty, without that it'd be 17% less frametime)

[simple vortex]

Wingman no you can't back down

don't admit!

[rocky kayak]

You mean I'm not supposed to admit when I'm wrong?

[simple vortex]

Absolutely not

[rocky kayak]

Or even entertain the idea that someone knows something I don't?!

[copper basin]

hostile my brother in arms, we have found their first mistake, NOW WE RISE

[rocky kayak]

Blasphemy!

[vast jackal]

but still, the numbers themselves don't matter too much, what I want to show that layer count absolutely does matter

[bold heart]

[marble rain]

i do admit i saw 0.016 as ms for some reason lol.

[onyx harness]

I think a lot of people did

[vast jackal]

yeah, 0.016 ms wouldn't be a lot for 800 layers

[onyx harness]

just reading back

[marble rain]

hence why i was so stern on it lol.

[vast jackal]

fair enough

happens to the best of us

[copper basin]

no hostile dont back down now! we were so close to a victory

[marble rain]

cause i was like why the hell do you care about 0.0100 ms

[sick timber]

I feel like I misread between ms and s like, 50 times that conversation

[rocky kayak]

Glad you at least saw it.

[simple vortex]

Trust me I argue for comfort over optimization a lot when it comes to negligible numbers like that.
But this not negligible 👍

[rocky kayak]

But you really should reconsider your stance. We've gotten so many tests in this for it to be false.

[copper basin]

VRLabs have been oppressing us for too long, this was our chance for a revolution

[rocky kayak]

These are hard numbers

[onyx harness]

Everyone kept saying ms I was sitting here doubting the shit outta myself trying to research if I was wrong xD

[vast jackal]

no yeah true

but yeah that's why we think blendtrees are important, lowering 60% of all that frametime can be hella nice

[rocky kayak]

We strike from the shadows. VrLabs knows where it hurts

[onyx harness]

VrLabs scary

[unique dome]

https://tenor.com/view/thriller-michael-jackson-eating-popcorn-watching-gif-5577709

[marble rain]

true. but then again sometimes you just cant avoid having extra layers. if you want it to only affect some part of the avatar.

[rocky kayak]

Of course not

That VRCBlocks I mentioned before? No blend trees

Since it has mostly parameter drivers

Which means blend trees don't work

[marble rain]

like i dont know how many layers i would say is average on that end but maybe 2-4 ? if it just means the hands and something else

[rocky kayak]

It's generally for basic toggles

And any optimization, no matter how small, is good

Plus, with the blend tree method, you can easily add on

[marble rain]

no i was not really looking in discord lol i was looking at work related things

i assume you mean a new world or?

[rocky kayak]

Either way, the statement stands

VRCBlocks is my voxel building system.

[marble rain]

ahh

[rocky kayak]

Allows people to build and pvp with friends

But it's very complex

[marble rain]

i think i saw that on twitter. i think

[rocky kayak]

Possibly!

[copper basin]

content is over :sadge:

[rocky kayak]

Melon, allow me to be your content

[copper basin]

ayo?

[marble rain]

alot of content can come from just placing a 0 extra to make it less 😄

[rocky kayak]

But yeah, there's definitely a time and a place for individual layers and blend trees. Generally in VRC, blend trees for toggles are better for optimization

[marble rain]

i assume your doing some shader generated blocks instead of actual gameobjects? or how are you going to handle that many blocks.

compute blocks i mean

[rocky kayak]

Particles!

It's already up and running. Co-op building too!

[marble rain]

with vertex stream?

[rocky kayak]

Nope

Just simple mesh particles!

[marble rain]

and your using that to place down the blocks to ?

[onyx harness]

The only complete avatar I used the Direct Blendtrees on so far went from about 80 to 30 layers. Drop from ~2.5 to ~1.5ms. Packing 50 layers into 1 felt pretty worth it even without tools to assist just knowing that. still got a lot of things to improve though

[rocky kayak]

I'm using a custom grid snap along with the particles, yup

And you simply place with a gesture.

If you want, I'd be happy to DM you a video where I show it off

[marble rain]

had no idea that the particle system could be used for that lol

i would always just end up doing compute block generation.

etc

[rocky kayak]

Nope. I use texture sheet animations, grid snapping, and particles!

[marble rain]

interesting way of going about it ngl

[rocky kayak]

I'm working on releasing the 2.0 version of the system very soon

It works with co op now, along with other functions of the blocks

[marble rain]

is compute shaders even a thing we can do in vrc yet?

[rocky kayak]

Don't believe so?

I wouldn't know.

I'm not the best with advanced shaders tbh

I'm a mechanical guy

[marble rain]

nor am i. not the best with geometry

[rain matrix]

Nope compute shaders are still off the table unfortunately

Probably will be for a long time

[marble rain]

thought so

thats a shame through cause it would enable so many things