open-beta-discussion

[formal breach]

The limits are still there for a reason, you've gotta calculate a lot more when players scale

[near grove]

lobby limits r norm in 30s

[formal breach]

literally every weekend I am in multiple lobbies that are 80 people

[near grove]

why jesus

[winged scarab]

Why would you show 80 ppl unless you know your device can take it

[wheat fjord]

People will always complain, if they have a choice, its on them to fix it on their own.

[outer python]

Oh god why

[near grove]

but realisticly u dont show all 80 if u have poor wifi

[shrewd estuary]

impossible

[formal breach]

yeah, and you can fix it by actually taking the time to optimize your model 😆

[winged scarab]

For quest*

[timber jewel]

it's getting a bit annoying ngl......

[winged scarab]

PCs have the option for an ethernet cable

[sullen elk]

I wonder when it’ll calm down enough I can post my showcase video again..

[warm cedar]

Get a chat mod or something at this point, get a dev to make the decision so this can stop :|

[small surge]

you went to 0 to 64 transforms, components 8 isnt bad

[near grove]

this does kinda concern vrc future

[outer python]

We got to make sure all the quest users know about this feedback thread

[shrewd estuary]

idea

[near grove]

agreed

i dmed all my firedns even some my pc firends who r creators agree on this so i say send it to ppl u know and ask them to also share it if they agree with it @outer python

[formal breach]

I mean nobody's done anything wrong by talking about the hard limits in the beta in the beta discussion channel

I'm not sure a chat mod can particularly do much here

[scenic phoenix]

Notzero does make a point

[shrewd estuary]

#966736288923402250 thread

[timber jewel]

If you still want to talk about the Hard Limit on Quest, please go and use this Thread for it

[outer python]

Naw

[near grove]

we r not raging its a civil discusion bbetween me and donar

[wheat fjord]

I also on weekends go to lobbies with 80 people in them. They're usually DJ events. The performers are people I know. But my system can handle that

[warm cedar]

get a dev to make a decision so this can stop, I'm just gunna check if tupper said anything about this at like 6 in the mornign

[outer python]

And the PC users rageing at us cause we want our voices herd

[shrewd estuary]

the chat for the last day has just been about the hard cap lol

[formal breach]

Neither side is raging 🤨

[near grove]

it is what it is i choose to ignore it

[outer python]

Doesn't that tell you something

[wheat fjord]

Multiple feedback post have already been made on the subject

[near grove]

we are doing what this channle was made for discussing the latest update

[shrewd estuary]

it tells me that people are talking about it, yeah

what do you expect me to say

[formal breach]

I mean it tells me that you're whining about something that isn't a particularly large deal, especially since optimization isn't very hard.

[near grove]

its easy to ignore text

[wheat fjord]

But if you think that you have the power to stop people from expressing their thoughts on the matter you are incorrect

[wheat fjord]

Just as you do people have the right to express their minds

[outer python]

Then stop complaining that we're talking about it

[near grove]

not complaining just talking abt

[warm cedar]

well all Tupper said can be simplified into: Blame the people with 400k polys for your limits

[shrewd estuary]

im not complaining lmao

[wheat fjord]

If you wish to take away their ability to do so then you lose yours as well.

[formal breach]

Honestly, if you took the time you're using to complain about this to just optimize your models, you really wouldn't have this issue

[near grove]

if it was complaining we be like waaa remove limit bOOOOo

[sullen elk]

In about a month I’m gonna look back at this fondly.
Same as shaders, dynamic bone limits, particle limits, safety settings, rotation breaking.
It’ll be awesome.

[vestal vigil]

what is happening here

[shrewd estuary]

a mess

[formal breach]

Sometimes I wish hard limits on polygon counts existed on PC

[timber jewel]

you can, but please just use the thread for it so we can use this channel to talk about other things related to the beta then just that one topic....

[near grove]

we have a right to express our minds

[mossy python]

Questies malding that they can’t make even more avatars that melt headsets

[warm cedar]

Same ;-;

[formal breach]

If we had hard polygon limits, people would be forced to use CATS' bake! Oh no! What a shame!

[vestal vigil]

remember a small processor with poor thermal cooling can only do so much

[near grove]

just cus u r pc users doesnt mean u can throw shade at us quest user discussing the futer of vrc for us and how to better optimize it by adding a toggle

at this point ur being toxic

[shrewd estuary]

e-avatar creator:

[outer python]

The thread that you want us to use so you won't hear that we want change ya big pass

[sullen elk]

They did have a limit. For a long time. And then: avatars 2.0 came

[formal breach]

once again, most of us are just trying to tell you that the limit is there for a reason

[vestal vigil]

really?

[mossy python]

I am a diehard Questie and I am fully in support of the hard limit on PhysBones. We are suffering a very poor epidemic because weeds and furries keep pumping out content that’s not optimized at all

[timber jewel]

I have heard you for like over 6h hours now....

[formal breach]

20k polygon limit for avatars

oh boy

[sullen elk]

20K polys was the hard limit on PC for ages.

[near grove]

sigh it was made to make progress if u say that then theres no progress being made onward for better optimization so we can see more in future

[vestal vigil]

pretty much anybody in vrchat in general, catboys/girls have ear and tail bones

[warm cedar]

yeah and we survived

[vestal vigil]

oh hey, thats my avatar poly count

[scenic phoenix]

I agree but to some (like my friend) think it’s a bit too harsh me at this point it’s like it is what it is

[sullen elk]

I made very nice avatars with that limit :)

[vestal vigil]

recall that pcs are starting to upgrade

if the poly limit was re-added
then it would be disaster

[formal breach]

there's only so much VRChat can do with the hardware that the Quest has, and if you want more complex avatars, you've gotta compromise in other areas

[vestal vigil]

people would be very, very upset

[shrewd estuary]

me with my 36k poly avatar:

[formal breach]

VRChat has given you from day one notice that hard limits could be put in place

[mossy python]

All of my Very Poor avatars on Quest have not been limited by PhysBone hard limit, and they have pretty crazy stuff going on. People complaining about the change are entirely excessive for the platform.

[vestal vigil]

could you imagine general-1 for one second?

[formal breach]

From the first day VRChat on Quest came out, there has been a notice saying that hard limits could be put on

[outer python]

Look at that what we are doing is working it's getting alot more attention

[formal breach]

Hell, there's always been a notice that Very Poor avatars might not even exist on Quest eventually

[sullen elk]

There is no limit anymore for PC. The hardware range is too vast.

But we know one device that all has the same or compatible hardware that is consistently benchmarked and studied.

[small surge]

Way to many avs on quest should never been there in first place

[formal breach]

exactly

[mortal plume]

^^

[vestal vigil]

guys what if the trust rank system promoted people who used optimized avatars?

[formal breach]

I've seen so many people upload Quest avatars that are fucking 300K poly for christs sake

300k fucking poly

[mortal plume]

I'm honestly glad these hard limits are a thing. people think the quest is more capable than it actually is

[formal breach]

The trust rank system is flawed to begin with

[vestal vigil]

its not just polygons, sadly

[small surge]

saw one trying 2 million one a few days ago

[shrewd estuary]

how many material slots used

[scenic phoenix]

Have you seen the gta San Andreas 300k poly avatar yet?

[mossy python]

Holy shit

[vestal vigil]

not exactly true

[near grove]

yes but im done talking abt it cus pc users r throwing shade at us for tryin to improve it. all i can say is share it.

[formal breach]

iirc it was like 30+

[outer python]

I've been up for like an hour tops

[mossy python]

I’ve been thinking of making my go to avatar optimized down to Poor on Quest

[shrewd estuary]

that makes my 36k poly avatar with 6 material slots used look good.

[formal breach]

People use it as a way to discern "trust in a person", when it's been clarified plenty of times that it's how much the system trusts you.

[shrewd estuary]

what the fuck

[small surge]

Im all for options , but its not gonna happen for awhile, think thats all ui 2.0 or whatever its called 🔨

[outer python]

I don't care about the shade

[mossy python]

It’s very poor but only because it has 30k tris and 2 extra particle systems for dripping effects

[formal breach]

That's what's flawed about the user trust system

[winged scarab]

[sullen elk]

I’m excited for Groups

[formal breach]

Regardless, that's getting off-topic

[vestal vigil]

if you want a general idea of how unoptimized an avatar is multiply the polygon count by the material slots and thats the "realistic" polygon count

and subtract from is not rendering at the time, such as toggles

and their material slots

[formal breach]

no I get that, however a 300K poly avatar even with one material is ridiculous on Quest

[noble sluice]

...no?

[winged scarab]

Most things in vrc are flawed tho tbh if that's an argument/j

[bright jungle]

if you want an idea of how optimized an avatar is, check the Unity profiler and stats lol

[vestal vigil]

expect a game that is still developing to have some flaws

[formal breach]

I mean VRChat was at one point forced to grow overnight, and because of this, growing pains came with

[winged scarab]

Yea, hence why this is a beta

[mossy python]

Uganda Knuckles moment

[shrewd estuary]

vrchat servers in 2018 be so fine
then boom, knuckles

[winged scarab]

That's very true

[noble sluice]

the realistic polycount is how many UV-verts the engine has to process per submesh (each individual material and it's affected geometric vertices)

[vestal vigil]

also, a 100k poly limit on PC would be very poggers :D

almost none of my avatars exceed that limit

except one, but thats because of toggles!

[mortal plume]

tbh, I agree

my avatar is 84k

[vestal vigil]

my main avatar is 20k

[mortal plume]

for model + 10 clothes

[vestal vigil]

well, one of them, the other is 70k

[formal breach]

I think I have a couple that exceed the limit but that's because I uploaded them years ago and hadn't a clue on how optimization even worked 😆

[edgy salmon]

So you are supposed to upgrade worlds to 3.0 soon, when will udon's beta be released?

[mortal plume]

so 100k would put me in Poor rather than very poor

[outer python]

Quest users let your voices be hurd

[near grove]

lolll

dm firends

[mossy python]

As a Quest user I am voicing that the hard limit is a good thing, stop melting headsets

[scenic phoenix]

Yeah donarr is essentially spamming at this point-

[formal breach]

Oh no! People have to.. take more than 2 minutes to optimize their avatars? The horror!

[sullen elk]

The Udon SDK is available as far as I’m aware to use and try out and learn

[stable mantle]

A- are people that up in arms still? 😕

[mossy python]

Scary shit ik

[outer python]

How is it spamming to voice my opinion about the beta in the beta thread

[edgy salmon]

but it is in alpha still

[warm cedar]

We are friends now. (we already were)

[winged scarab]

I think a choice to "melt headsets" is a good idea in my opinion

[mossy python]

Here lemme make it official you seem cool

[scenic phoenix]

Cause you keep replying to the same message over and over with the same reason and it’s technically spam

[near grove]

donar dm ur firends

[outer python]

Here next time I'll make it clearer that I feel performance should be a choice

[warm cedar]

I think you guys don't understand what "in progress" means

[outer python]

Have been

[near grove]

ighty

[warm cedar]

if the team is implementing the stopping of uploading, unless you get to speak with the team themselves, nothing will happen.

[formal breach]

It's not going to stop because they're still just upset over something that could be solved if they just took this motivation to optimizing their models

[mossy python]

^

[stable mantle]

I concur 200%. Avatar limits could stand adjustment, but overall, I don't want anything involving any kind of physics to be unlimited at this time. I'm happy they put their foot down.

[scenic phoenix]

^

[midnight dome]

why are so many people chatting here

[scenic phoenix]

Atleast a small adjustment is more than enough but I still support the limit

[mossy python]

Honestly I think that Quest avatars should have a hard limit of 50k tris

And hard limit of 8 materials

[warm cedar]

meltdowns and meltdowns of malders, davilos called them that so I'm doin' it too

[bright jungle]

limiting physbones on Quest is a vv good idea

[warm cedar]

we friends B}

[stable mantle]

Everyone is upset that avatars are having the PhysBones limits enforced on Quest.

[bright jungle]

people forget that it's a mobile device, using a downclocked mobile APU

[mossy python]

Wanna know why I develop for Quest primarily?

The limits force me to think creatively and learn new techniques to push out optimized content

[wise zephyr]

well physbones run like butter as far as ive seen. all i could think is the true reason is networking(?)

[vestal vigil]

i think it is up to the devs, they have dealt with stress testing, they can tell what 20 users with unoptimized avatars will do in a world because QA (quality assurance) devs stress test the game engine to ensure there are no issues.

[stable mantle]

I do it because I don't have a gaming PC. Accessibility ~

[near grove]

it only lagged for ppl with poor wifi or had 70 ppl showed at once

[bright jungle]

you probably haven't seen avatars with literal thousands of them though, like people did with DBs

[midnight dome]

yea pls limit j was on beta and i couldnt toucch my headset it was so hot and the battery went down very fast

[near grove]

thats why having a toggle in performance settings would be good

[sullen elk]

Personal experience is not the same thing as quantitative testing

[formal breach]

homedog do you think wifi matters with avatar dynamics

[mossy python]

Oh true that

[bright jungle]

wifi does not equal FPS

[wise zephyr]

i need to find one of thos on quest

[near grove]

it can

[warm cedar]

I actually made a "puppet" system with contacts, I'm a PCVR only player, so I just make the PC version that can handle more contacts change values on parameterdrivers, it was pretty neat, But I think I'm not the first guy to do this

[bright jungle]

:monkas:

[mossy python]

The e-girls with 300k tris and 70 phys bones per tit were so annoying

[near grove]

loading them

[formal breach]

im australian my internet is bad therefore im at a constant 7fps /s

[small surge]

You never had physbones before now on quest, how are you comparing

[vestal vigil]

if your wifi is slower I would actually claim that your performance is better as long as some avatars are still loading. (they don't render)
There is only a lag-spike when the avatars are loaded in.

[near grove]

-_-

[bright jungle]

not in any practical amount no
there's a difference between lag and FPS drops

lag is a network term

[near grove]

i played beta since first release

[stable mantle]

It's because they run like butter in isolation. Gotta remember VRC has [ large number ] person lobbies and the Quest can barely handle 20-person on a good day.

People were already making crashers in the beta too.

[sullen elk]

To be fair, many quest users who tested the beta got estranged to the beta because Meta wouldn’t let them go back to Live

[near grove]

i switched easily

[midnight dome]

in open beta i have to only show 4 people if i show more ill probably lag abit

[mossy python]

Yeah I switched between beta and live countless times

Questies are just REALLY dumb

[formal breach]

not quite 100

[small surge]

beta vs live is usually very different experience cause of well.. more people , leaving / joining instance (public especially)

[formal breach]

but yeah 80 people would absolutely brutalize any CPU

[outer python]

That's a huge eww

[bright jungle]

not at all, frankly that'd be good for PC imo lol

[formal breach]

5120 transforms if everyone maxed their AD components out with the limits

[mossy python]

You’re dumb and bad

[stable mantle]

I just woke up my bad

[bright jungle]

you can have an optimized avatar that also looks good and has a lot of features

[sudden hull]

Oculus recommended 100k triangles (static!) in view at a maximum

[formal breach]

start unlimiting this and you start to brutalize any CPU

[bright jungle]

people don't know, or unfortunately sometimes don't want, to optimize though

[outer python]

How immature

[vestal vigil]

I have an odd impression that you are a unlisted VRC dev or at least a talented content creator for VRChat

[mossy python]

True! I made a functioning slots machine using AD on an avatar that isn’t even perf blocked on Quest

[sullen elk]

Jiggle obsession is a curse ;-;

[desert grove]

i would think mine is optimized and looks well

[mossy python]

What’s immature is throwing a tantrum and spamming complaints about how butthurt you are

[uneven jacinth]

Hard limits for things are likely inevitable. That sad reality is that no one gives a flying fart in space about optimizing, because of the free rider problem.

There’s going to be a tiny amount who care

[warm cedar]

I still want to see this in action one day

[uneven jacinth]

But unless users are forced to care the vast majority won’t do jack.

[warm cedar]

haven't seen it due to my lack of activity on the beta

[outer python]

What's immature is calling someone dumb and bad

[mossy python]

Shoot me a friend request, I’ll probably be free later

[mortal plume]

if no one is forced to optimize, hardly anyone will bother. hard limits are a way to ensure a certain amount of optimization to ensure a good experience for other players

[warm cedar]

I won't be free today ;-;

[stable mantle]

I have actually encountered the bug some people had; the Quest legitimately can get stuck on a build channel for an unspecified amount of time.

But the fact so many people did go on the beta without being creators themselves was frustrating. Too many encountering this bug over not understanding what the beta was for.

[bright jungle]

yus! I have an avatar with 5 toggles and particles, which is like ~1mb and <14k tris

for PC it's Good rank, and could be Excellent if I removed the particles

[vestal vigil]

Optimization is a contest between what the creators want for their userbase VS. what the userbase naturally desires at the cost of immersion.
Quest users will mostly desire more immersion at the heavy expense of framerate, and in that effect they often stop playing because of the low framerate, blaming the game and not their desire to push the system to its absolute limits.

[formal breach]

mfw most of my avatars are below 50k and have shitloads of stuff on them

[sullen elk]

Lack of hard limits is how PC got to where it is with a large population of 300K tris avatars because everyone wants to have their outfit swaps and Sketchfab boots on the same model

[mossy python]

I’ll be free most of the weekend too. Working on porting Pokédex 3D to VRChat lol

[bright jungle]

people forget that their avatars are game models, and should be optimized as such

[crimson granite]

the optimisations are so heavy for quest i will say that

from some avatar creators

[uneven jacinth]

Lemme just make all my textures 8K too.

It’s totally necessary!

[bright jungle]

with edge loop dissolving and etc, you can get that polygon count way down usually without affecting how your avatar looks, especially with flat toon shaders

[plucky owl]

Would avatar dynamics also come to the World SDK?

[sullen elk]

Edge loop dissolving is soothing

[formal breach]

I need to not be able to see any hard edges!

[bright jungle]

heck, this too lmao
huge textures because of bad UVs is another issue

[mossy python]

1024 texture with 512 normal map and 256 smoothness map > 8k texture

[outer python]

So anyone think that meta needs to figure a way to make switching between beta and stable builds of apps more seamless

[bright jungle]

>people using 8k textures for pixel art instead of point filtering

[stable mantle]

The general avatar optimizations are heavy handed but it's pretty established at this point they're only heavy handed because creators keep pushing the limits when they're not.

[vestal vigil]

imagine trying to get a bunch of users who are perhaps hobbyist content creators to optimize content for an android VR game. Android is perhaps the most tedious platform to effectively optimize platform because of its hard-limits, and because VRChat on the quest is basically a more-powerful phone processor, it should be treated as such.

[formal breach]

[mossy python]

There’s no way people are that dumb

[warm cedar]

https://tenor.com/bgthJ.gif

It's vrchat davi

[mossy python]

Man

[warm cedar]

open your eyes buddy.

[vestal vigil]

how do you think I was born

[sullen elk]

I’ve seen it myself

[mossy python]

I feel really bad that my main avatar is Very Poor on Quest

[uneven jacinth]

I’m a SS13 dev. Trust me, they are.

[mossy python]

But I physically cannot achieve what I need to without bone constraints

[vestal vigil]

they didn't wear their protection properly and so I was born, insult to injury for the accidental birth is that I was born on april fools day.

[mossy python]

So I have to use extra particle systems

[warm cedar]

I bought a rid and modified it a bit, like it bcs it's medium

[inner kayak]

[noble sluice]

don't point filter

[stable mantle]

If it worked the current way would be fine, but I do have a Canny open for VRC to break the beta off into a separate listing: https://feedback.vrchat.com/open-beta/p/quest-host-beta-as-a-separate-listing

[noble sluice]

use shaders specifically meant for pixel art upsampling

point filtering bad

[round stirrup]

Several of my friends just installed the Open Beta SDK and are getting Mathematics errors.
Error: Could not load signature of VRC.Dynamics.MathUtil:DistancePointToPlane due to: Could not load file or assembly 'Unity.Mathematics, Version=1.0.0.0, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=null' or one of its dependencies. assembly:Unity.Mathematics, Version=1.0.0.0, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=null type:<unknown type> member:(null) signature:<none>

[mossy python]

My avatar has 3 particle systems, each with a sub emitter. Because of this I have 8 materials and obviously too many particle systems for Quest.

[vestal vigil]

hey maybe we should show this to the devs in the canny

[bright jungle]

will have to look into this

[outer python]

Oh ya I didn't think of that the beta could be hosted on applabs

[vestal vigil]

I'm looking for a shader that makes my character look like its melting

[noble sluice]

https://gitlab.com/s-ilent/pixelstandard

[warm cedar]

that's on you smartass XD

Table

[sullen elk]

Use discord to search this channel, if nothing pops up it might be a worthwhile canny thread for a real bug

[warm cedar]

what bout questies

[mossy python]

If I could use constraints to make the particle system emit from different locations I could get away with only one particle system

[noble sluice]

oh if we're talking quest avatars then

[mossy python]

Alas

[noble sluice]

"lol" said the table, "lmao"

[warm cedar]

But u cannut, so u cri

[small surge]

Is this the burst thing unity need , not seen that error before

[mossy python]

The avatar in Question is a custom Puro that actually drips and leaves puddles on the floor

[warm cedar]

Nah I'm sure the team have "constraints for quest" on their bucket list

they just need to fix the components first

[mossy python]

Sadly said dripping is the source of my very poor

[bright jungle]

thank

[stable mantle]

Doesn't even need to be labs. Though Meta might like that IDK.

[bright jungle]

Import the Burst and Mathematics packages via the Unity package manager o:

the SDK should do that already, but

[round stirrup]

also @bright jungle Apparently it's been seen by 2 others in here before but I don't see it in Canny

[sullen elk]

The quest constraints has been a maybe pin for ages

[mossy python]

Also like need to shave off 10k tris but that would ruin my AO baked into Vertex Colors

[round stirrup]

@steep umbra @floral barn Did you ever solve that Unity.Mathematics error?

[sullen elk]

If I did have it my entire Pc avatar would work for Quest easy

[steep umbra]

Yes

[mossy python]

ALSO

[stable mantle]

I actually had the bug too, in the project that the PhysBone simulation at play time is so broken; I do wonder if they're related…

[mossy python]

People need to do that more

[warm cedar]

Oh before I forget

[mossy python]

Bake your AO into vertex colors for Quest

[warm cedar]

Tupper live update moment when? is now?!

[mossy python]

It’s very good looking and helps performance :>

[steep umbra]

I had to downgrade my Unity, then upgrade it again for it to recognise that the Math was wrong

[round stirrup]

Yikes

[sullen elk]

Screenshotting for later

[mossy python]

It can be tricky to get right but if you get it it’s super good

[steep umbra]

You having the same problem?

[bright jungle]

note that using vertex colors increases the number of logical vertices your avatar has

[round stirrup]

I have 2 friends having the same problem

[mossy python]

I used to bake AO into diffuse but my texture scrolls so I needed an alternative approach

[sullen elk]

Maybe reimport the Math package?

[mortal plume]

you can pick which version of those packages you want in your project

in the package manager

[steep umbra]

What version of Unity?

[steep umbra]

I did

Unity was just being a spoilt brat

[mortal plume]

wouldn't be the first time lol

[warm cedar]

Hehe, typical

[lethal umbra]

There was an update to my math package from one version down to the latest, but that didn't resolve the issue. The error specifies Version 1.0.0.0 of the package but the closest thing to that I can pick is the preview verison of 1.0

[mossy python]

Right, that’s why I use vert colors ONLY for AO.

[round stirrup]

2019.4.31f1

[steep umbra]

I mean, last time I was working on a project, unity crashed and literally wiped the whole assets package, despite it being saved and used consistently for over a month

[steep umbra]

Try downgrading by 1 version, then upgrading

[round stirrup]

Alright, @lethal umbra is doing that now

[mossy python]

I’m trying to find a good pic of my model with baked ao

[steep umbra]

Want a dirty example?

[mossy python]

The only pic I have is after a friend deformed it’s face in blender

[steep umbra]

I'll get an example now

[mossy python]

This is baked to vertex colors btw

Not just a texture

[vestal vigil]

does vertex colors work even with custom textures

[mossy python]

That way I can do scrolling textures without the AO scrolling

[vestal vigil]

I'll be honest I just bake AO into my base color

[mossy python]

Yes! Quest shaders put Vertex colors on top of the albedo

[raven laurel]

depends on shaders

poiyomi have option to show them

[mossy python]

All VRC shaders on Quest put Vertex Colors in front of the albedo

Perfect for AO

[steep umbra]

Heres a dirt example on how the AO would look on Suzanne

[vestal vigil]

does look a little cursed

[mossy python]

Conveniently in Blender 3.0 there’s an option to bake AO to vertex colors with cycles

[warm cedar]

Wowie, blender good

[round stirrup]

I made a Unity.Mathematics Canny, woo. https://feedback.vrchat.com/open-beta/p/1189-unitymathematics

[obsidian wagon]

rip 90% of my avis now that theres limits

[vestal vigil]

what's the hard physbone limit?

[timber jewel]

You just need to update your Unity Mathematics

[vestal vigil]

wait can you put 8k textures on quest.

[obsidian wagon]

64 transforms

[round stirrup]

I just watched someone here update Unity.Mathematics and it not work

[vestal vigil]

nice

[timber jewel]

the last row

[vestal vigil]

that's more than plenty

[wise zephyr]

yes. just has to be under 10 mb

[wraith island]

Yes but don't

[vestal vigil]

tempting

[obsidian wagon]

eh not really kinda a low amount imo

[vestal vigil]

for satirical purposes only

[warm cedar]

TOASTER.

[wise zephyr]

doesnt the avatar sdk auto add phys colliders to fingers or do those even count?

[warm cedar]

DON'T YOU FUCKING DARE. alright? you hearing me? sound visualizer working in your noggin'?

[wise zephyr]

cus if so. how are people suppost to interact with buttons and I guess 🤔 other avatars

[steep umbra]

Responded

[sullen vigil]

those don't count from what i know.

[wise zephyr]

when we update to 2020 unity. 16k

[vestal vigil]

Perhaps, I do hear voices as each to their own. As I read the voices in my head read them about.

[warm cedar]

Stop. :)

[vestal vigil]

the voices in my head?
my train of thought

[vestal vigil]

nonononoononnonoonno

[round stirrup]

Apparently a workaround that we're testing right now is creating a new project, exporting your old models as a Prefab and adding that prefab to the new project. Then it "magically fixes itself"

Updates in a moment...

[bright jungle]

shudders

[sullen vigil]

man i been waiting for this update for like a year now and i had so many ideas but now that it's about to drop i just completely blank and have no clue what to make anymore..

[lethal umbra]

This did not work for me

Just making a new project

[warm cedar]

Then think again

you'll think of something, I'm sure of it!

[sullen vigil]

I guess it's more of a "there's so many things i could do with this. where do i start" 👀

[novel veldt]

same

i have so many ideas

[warm cedar]

I just went with a simple idea:

I wanted a taser that had feedback for PC users.

1 simple contact later and boom, made

[hard wigeon]

When was it supposed to drop again? I forgot lol

[bright jungle]

no ETA

[hard wigeon]

Ah, alright

[bright jungle]

this is a release candidate though, so

[novel veldt]

what you mean feedbackm

[warm cedar]

Taser sound + particles

[novel veldt]

oh

[warm cedar]

the thing itself isn't on quest for performance reasons lol

[novel veldt]

isn't that a thing already

[mortal plume]

taser with sounds + light + haptics vest is terrifying

[bright jungle]

with my taser vest idea, you could have real feedback

[novel veldt]

laser particle guns been a thing for a while now

[mossy python]

Alas, Quest users are terrified of the program

[warm cedar]

Mehehe, you really figured out my master plan

MahahahaHAHAHA

[bright jungle]

:monkas:

[bright jungle]

schut

[warm cedar]

No lights, I'd like my avatar to be performant. not a frame hog

[vestal vigil]

i mean I absoulutely could give my 20k UNoptimized protogen realtime reflections

[wheat fjord]

Mine is optimized but it still makes quest users lose features. Its not optimization. You simply don't understand why people want this change. This is clearly a failure on your part to understand

[warm cedar]

TOASTER.

No. Eh- Why.

What.

[vestal vigil]

screen space reflections.

you could see your hand reflect off my avatar if you put your hand in front of it

[bright jungle]

[inner kayak]

[warm cedar]

my 1060 be like

Ah zalgo not work

[vestal vigil]

my 6600xt be like:

[bright jungle]

no u c:

970m go 🔥

[novel veldt]

my 3060ti be like

[limber quartz]

https://tenor.com/view/the-voices-meme-cat-gif-23917781

[stable mantle]

Im afraid to tell you that, in the case of physics, even fancy miracle physiscs like PhysBones, you do not want to push the Quest to its limits. It causes whole system stability issues. The CPU is the issue not the GPU.

[short vector]

So, I'm basically stoopid
I have the instruction on how to get outta oculus beta, but my dodohead ain't working, so can someone explain to me ob how to get outta the oculus beta with my dodobrain?

[lime yarrow]

ETA is some time today barring any major bugs

[novel veldt]

today?

[vestal vigil]

the system barely holds up figuring out where you are in your room when you're setting up room tracking

[warm cedar]

QuEsT LimITS A BuG

I wAnT 3FpS NoOW!

but that reminds me

Tupper release moment live version possible now?

[vestal vigil]

quest limits are not a bug
physbone crashers could be used on quest

[raven laurel]

yes i want accidentally crash quest users

[warm cedar]

That's what we've been saying toasty

[quaint geode]

if you use any of the common Very Poor avatars, you probably already do

[stable mantle]

Go to website <oculus.com>. Log in! Goto https://www.oculus.com/experiences/quest/1856672347794301 — Click the ⌄ by the version. Click the option ending in live (LIVE). Wait a few hours. Check your headset.

[raven laurel]

if ur stuck in beta factory reset quest fastest way

[bright jungle]

people forget that the Quest is a mobile device, running on an underclocked mobile APU, which is already undergoing high usage before having to deal with physbones

[short vector]

Thank you, kind citizen!

[vestal vigil]

the transition from open beta to the new update could arise some new issues in itself

[bright jungle]

also if you're stuck on the beta, this

[wheat fjord]

Seems contrary to every user report I've had in the 1.3 months

[raven laurel]

i never used very poor avatar for quest

[stable mantle]

That's because Guardian is shite though and uses cameras for room tracking. "This room is 10% brighter than before. It must be a completely different room."

Guardian is an amnesiac some days and a senile man the others.

[wheat fjord]

and my experience on my quest 1

[bright jungle]

oh hey, vagueness

[short vector]

Tried factory reset, didn't work, only made that I can't join people and not have physbones

[mossy python]

Remove the Quest physbone hard cap!!!1!1 My PUBLIC noodle dragon avatar (designed for PC VRChat in polygon count, material count, and bone transform count) is now a PAPER WEIGHT! This is unacceptable and I DEMAND personally (I am very important and influential could you tell?) that the limit be revoked before I tell my 7 Twitter followers!!

[warm cedar]

This is a personal insult davilos

[vestal vigil]

quest never had dynamic/physbones
adding physbones to quest puts more burden on the quest than before the update, so yes, it would make sense to have quest limits.

[bright jungle]

again, this
everything adds up in cost

[warm cedar]

remove it

[stable mantle]

That's because were in beta so incidents were isolated. The problem is that they wouldn't be once this hits live.

[warm cedar]

Not to me, but to the guy screaming it

[wheat fjord]

Are you aware Quest users can also to participate in beta?

[warm cedar]

though odd that every other user that isn't in the beta that I've talked with doesn't appear to throw a fit when they learn about the limits

kinda makes you think

[near grove]

What is the main issue about phys bones this time?

[wintry notch]

What’s the max physbones am avatar can have?

For quest

[vestal vigil]

check docs.vrchat.com

[tender dome]

64 transforms, 8 components

[mossy python]

8 components, 64 transforms

[warm cedar]

  - This means that **the Oculus Quest has a hard PhysBone limit** at these values: >8 components, >64 transforms, >16 colliders, >64 collision checks```

[stable mantle]

Oh it always does. I have had it keep me on the beta listing before and remove the option to switch. It still gave me LIVE updates, but it auto-updated to betas when they came out until I switched out when the option was presented.

They really need to make betas their own listing. Or just distribute the APK.

[warm cedar]

Sippbox >:]

How have you been

[carmine moat]

personally i think those hard cap are good, maybe need to be a little more but it should be there for every settings of the avatar on pc and quest...
right now i can upload a 2GB avatar with 1000 materials and 10 billions polygons and vrchat won't care... that's a big issue so yes the hard cap is a good idea, maybe it need to be a little higher but not disabled

[tender dome]

64 transforms is generous

[noble sluice]

update to my tree showcase from earlier! I took a break from number gathering to test how using the editor's autoconverter to match PB's default settings towards DB's default settings and... wow yeah they're a lot more similar than before

not gonna include a third tier of autoconverted DBs in my bench avatar because.... it should be the same as the option in game lmao

[warm cedar]

You just bloody ignored my message

[tender dome]

[leaden wolf]

Is there's way to test Phys bone Grab within Unity?

[stable mantle]

Yeah and avatars like that are why VRChat is considering nuking from orbit altogether, hurting the rest of us "sane" users who at least try to optimize.

[bright jungle]

Launch play mode, and click on the physbone

[warm cedar]

Camera, tagged as 'MainCamera'

[vestal vigil]

if the quest 2 used a light adaptive model that calculated what the room looks like from the difference from brightness from one pixel to another, rather than brightness of each pixel itself, it would probably not have that issue

[noble sluice]

but yeah, I think this proves that PB is far saner out of the box and yet can still match DB's jank should people choose, despite the fundamental differences in both systems

[wheat fjord]

Do you have any evidence to support this?

[leaden wolf]

i mean "Grab"

[stable mantle]

I dev unlocked so half the time I just turn guardian off, lmao.

[novel veldt]

why are people complaining about the phys bones limits on quest? a few weeks ago you didn't even have any physics now you do, it's a bonus stop complaining

[warm cedar]

Can't imagine the moment tupper just randomly appears in here and goes "Yeah, close her up."

[novel veldt]

it's like you don't have something,. someone gives it to you and you complain it's not enough?

[vestal vigil]

need the guardian for fbt i think

[carmine moat]

for me we need an hard limit on everythings
no more than 100Mb avatar
no more than 2.5B polygons
no more than 100 materials
etc and those cap are actually pretty high...

[warm cedar]

2.5__B__?!!?

[novel veldt]

it's like you don't have something,. someone gives it to you and you complain it's not enough?

[mossy python]

UMM

[warm cedar]

WHAT.

[buoyant badger]

So is there a physbone limit for pc or is that just on quest?

[carmine moat]

yeah it's to high

[wheat fjord]

Because people have a right to express while they feel, just as do you. If they didn't you wouldn't be able to complain about them complaining.

[tender dome]

only quest

[buoyant badger]

Alright ty ^^

[warm cedar]

hehe potater

[mossy python]

Me omw to subdivide my model 20 times

[wintry notch]

THIS

[warm cedar]

Why stop at 20? The sky is the limit when YOU SIMPLY DON'T GIVE A SHIT

[stable mantle]

#open-beta-discussion message

[bright jungle]

2.5 billion polygons

[tender dome]

for real though, my main model sturggles to go past 40 transforms

[wheat fjord]

Strawman argument

[worldly temple]

The overheating computer on your face doesn't really care for rights

[bright jungle]

do..you know the difference between a render model and a game model

[stable mantle]

Oh true if you're using PC it does use the guardian unless you set up a separate room tracking system.

[carmine moat]

no... find me an actual unity game on legacy render pipeline that have like 2.5 B polygon on every character...

[limber quartz]

https://docs.vrchat.com/docs/avatar-performance-ranking-system#quest-limits

[warm cedar]

It's mostly E- type avatars, or niche use cases. and don't tell me it isn't.

[carmine moat]

and that doesn't lag

[novel veldt]

yeah when expressing what you feel doesn't put your whole face at risk of a mobile CPU exploding on your face

[warm cedar]

You won't

2.5Billions is hurrendous, even for AAA games

[vestal vigil]

this has been here for a while, that's why I'm determined on making my avatar optimized

[tender dome]

seeing an E- avatar with a medium or good perf rank is so surreal (yes i've seen a handful)

[vestal vigil]

very rare breed of e-avatars

[warm cedar]

it's beautiful. that's true

[vestal vigil]

poiyomi I believe is one of them

[mossy python]

We’ll be laughing at 2.5b in like 15 years

[tender dome]

nah poi is a boothcat

[small surge]

2500watts gpu's with its own ac

[bright jungle]

even for render models, having billions of polygons on one model would be horrific lmao

[vestal vigil]

boothcat?
ohh a person who uses booth anime avatars

[warm cedar]

Davilos, no, we're not yet cranky 80 year olds in retirement homes.

[mossy python]

Speak for yourself I want my jello and 4 pm bedtime

[vestal vigil]

you'd get no more than a frame per second, thats only if it uses flat and very very basic shading

[warm cedar]

I've fallen, and can't up. Help yourself sasshead!

[noble sluice]

I spent hours going through avatar worlds earlier for test prep and was mildly disappointed at how much harder it was to find incredibly shitty e- avatars nowadays

[near grove]

I'm just happy we are getting a vastly more efficient system for bones and colliders......not many of us can afford to spend $3,500 on a gaming pc that can keep your VR headset pegged at max fps

[noble sluice]

still not insanely hard, but noticeably more difficult than before

[tender dome]

are they actually improving? wow

[vestal vigil]

helps me because I'm CPU bound

:D

[tender dome]

i hope the physbone hard limits incentivises people to optimize more

[near grove]

Right

[wintry notch]

Honestly it’s so easy

[noble sluice]

and almost all of them were quest compat as well

[vestal vigil]

and when they update to 2020 with the new rendering engine?
hooh that will be fun
(except for all the avatars with old shaders that will be permanently brokent)

[warm cedar]

Seeing the riot. Don't think you proved the message just yet buddy.

[mossy python]

You know I think I know how VRC could fix the very poor issue on Quest without entirely nuking Very Poor

Just don’t allow people to upload Very Poor avatars as public blueprints

[tender dome]

all the people i've seen complaining here are people who don't make avatars

[acoustic meteor]

^

[vestal vigil]

I mean I optimize because making optimized avatars from scratch is easier

[warm cedar]

that is true

[carmine moat]

they already planned that

[mossy python]

100% true

[acoustic meteor]

It only takes a few minutes tbh. Optimizing avatars isn't that hard to do.

[tender dome]

they just see the public ones theyve been using in the beta not having physbones anymore, and lose their mind

[umbral scaffold]

the physbones aren’t working for quest rn

[vestal vigil]

my workflow doesn't use sculpting it uses polybuilding.

[tender dome]

They are, there are hard limits now.

[small surge]

Some dont have pc, so they use some public thats extremely poor

[vestal vigil]

check if you have the physbone debug view in your hand menu

[mossy python]

Extruding vertices with subsurface modifier go brrr

[vestal vigil]

stinky

[novel veldt]

i mean people would upload them as private and still wear them in public

[vestal vigil]

I do not use subsurface modifiers

[warm cedar]

Just wait until the people with private E- avatars start flooding the avatar help channels in a couple of hours...

[tender dome]

https://sippbox.life-is-pa.in/5u3ZGLKLp

[bright jungle]

life is pain, i hATE-

[carmine moat]

they should put it on everything i uploaded an avatar yesterday that had more than 10B poly and 2GB heavy

[mossy python]

99% of very poor avatars on Quest are public eboys, anime game rips, and rexoiums with 200k tris

[vestal vigil]

I'd like for there to be some basic PC limits

[mossy python]

Limiting it to content creators only for very poor would all be shut off the problem

[vestal vigil]

like some very kind ones, no more than like 250k polys and 100 mats

[warm cedar]

Yeah, after all the cool stuff on the roadmap, I want us all to push for an update to overhaul the performance ranking system

we want more strict guidelines

[bright jungle]

still wonder how it'd go if Very Poor avatars were hidden by default on PC

[near grove]

Tfw $2,000 of your budget was just the cpu and gfx card......

[carmine moat]

the biggest i've seen is actually 1000 material 10B poly 2gb and 700 000 particule and it's "authorized"

[shrewd estuary]

badly

[stable mantle]

This needs, like, a custom url like you-didnt.read-t.he/documentation or can.you-re.ad/bro?

[timber jewel]

wow, the auto conversion looks really close to DB, I mean I would still just prefer how it looks with default PB settings though xD

[shrewd estuary]

probably

[vestal vigil]

Shaders should be perf ranked too.
If you have a whole grabpass in your shader that is really expensive

[worldly temple]

It'd be one thing if people were upset because they have to rework their own avatars, but most people are upset because avatars other people made are broken

[vestal vigil]

raymarching shaders also are really expensive, tessellation too

raymarching isn't that bad tho .0.

[patent hollow]

or howabout allowing perfblocking on friends

[modest sentinel]

texture size is more intense for performance

[bright jungle]

make a raymarched tessellation shader with grabpasses, got it

[vestal vigil]

nOOOO

[warm cedar]

That exists

[timber jewel]

VRAM goes brrrrrrrr

[warm cedar]

it's called the "friends" safety rank

[carmine moat]

not really it's only the 8k texture that sometimes makes performance issue but between 0 and 4k it's okay and should just fill ram

[modest sentinel]

4 & 8K

[stable mantle]

It technically does but Quest's hard limits on things like particles, and physbones, supersede that.

[bright jungle]

no? vram use is vram use lol

[modest sentinel]

if I got 10 materials with 4K textures your vram not gonna be happy

[cold kiln]

There still a problem on my avatar
how do I fix this?
I am already disable any collider on my avatar and also I uncheck the allow collision check box, but my ear still glitch

[modest sentinel]

shaders on top of 4k textures is even more fun

animated shaders with emission etc

[near grove]

Yes, yes it does I easily 11GBs in a full Pug

[novel veldt]

just...why

[umbral scaffold]

I don’t have physbones debug in my hand menu sadly

[modest sentinel]

1 person no problemo but an entire lobby with 4k texture nah

[carmine moat]

my "really bad" computer cannot see the difference in fps between 4k and 2k but maybe that's true idk... btw i almost never use 4k so...

[timber jewel]

the 8Gb VRAM on my 3070 are basically always full when I play VRChat ngl xD

[warm cedar]

Actually, sipp if you get this message: could you ask owlboy what happened to the support for the great pug west?

[mossy python]

I JUST realized why VRChat has an issue with performance

[near grove]

Ooof

[vestal vigil]

shaders should be ranked for how much GPU time they take, so. e.g. if a shader takes over 1ms of GPU time (which adds 1ms to each frame calculation time, bringing you from 90 frames to 82 frames)
this could be done in the SDK by having each material loaded one-by-one

[mossy python]

In any normal video game the protagonist is really detailed and all NPCs are less detailed

[warm cedar]

I know where this is going...

[stable rivet]

i have to disable a lot of things to play on my gtx 1650 super due to ram

[modest sentinel]

I got 3090 with i9 12900k i dont notice that much of difference until people uses high quality textures with like a 80 people lobby

[warm cedar]

BAHAHA you failed

[carmine moat]

because of mmd avatar and those that don't take care of performance rank of their avatar

[mossy python]

In VRChat, EVERYONE thinks they’re the protagonist but they’re all just mirror dwelling NPCs

[stable mantle]

VRAM or RAM usage only effects low-ram systems and users in numbers, best case scenario. You won't notice anything on your own with "somewhat reasonable" texture sizes, but it will have cascading effects in the long run.

[carmine moat]

true

[warm cedar]

I am an NPC, I am less detailed than most, mostly repeat phraises like "Fartman rises" or "I will shitpost in your mailbox", and just stand there... Menacingly.

[stable mantle]

That's actually the "crux" of the physbone "issue".

Everyone saying they were fine weren't testing in large groups.

[patent hollow]

just need a more robust fallback system......having pc fallbacks limited to excellent only is kinda pepega

[pearl mantle]

i was curious because one of my avatars has physbones and dymanic bones on pc but when i join the beta on quest they wont show but they show on pc beta. i haven't tried the beta in a bit but i was wondering if anyone knew why it wasn't showing

[mossy python]

For me it’s just a casual “you’re brown” or a “why are you shaped like that?” to random individuals

[carmine moat]

but yeah for my own test i tested 100 copies of my own avatar with animator on unity
2k fps: 33
4k fps: 33
8k fps: 12

[bright jungle]

your Quest version of the avatar needs the physbone components too

you can't render PC content on Quest

[modest sentinel]

unity is different

[pearl mantle]

got it

[modest sentinel]

that comparing pc & vr

[warm cedar]

Okay you are officially deemed superb, only true chads make random comments to pass-byers.

[pearl mantle]

thanks

[stable mantle]

It's because the purpose of a fallback is to be the most compatible avatar and most performant avatar VRChat can handle. There's other reasons an avatar falls back besides safety settings. Sometimes avatars are outright blocked due to system performance.

[mossy python]

I got the “why are you shaped like that” from a public lobby

[modest sentinel]

on higher resolution vrs you notice more with 4k

[stable mantle]

It sucks, but makes sense.

[warm cedar]

Don't matter, you make the comment

[bright jungle]

whole lotta conjecture in here

[mossy python]

One guy went around asking it to every single person in a full furhub lobby after someone told him he couldn’t ask why someone was shaped the way they are

[trim skiff]

how am i going to enter the beta?

[patent hollow]

maybe 3 LODs for pc and 2 for quest would be a better meta

[bright jungle]

#open-beta-info c:

[mossy python]

With that pfp you need to enter the great outdoors and touch grass

[patent hollow]

"ultra" should be "ultra"

[worldly temple]

If all goes well, you won't need to soon

Might be going public today or tomorrow

[tender dome]

doesnt need to be excellent, can be good ranked

[stable mantle]

Yea but not a lot of people can afford high end VR.

It's mostly Rift, Vive, Rift S, & Quest in a Rift S trenchcoat players.

[trim skiff]

i blocked the rude guy

[mossy python]

LMAO

[slate mortar]

moment when quest 2 is worse than my laptop from 2013 in terms of what it can show

[mossy python]

I’m taking that as a win

[shrewd estuary]

[warm cedar]

You didn't need to be that harsh

though yes, porn of fnaf characters is godawful.

[mossy python]

Au contraire, I’m an asshole

[modest sentinel]

in the end texture is just a thing that causes issue in vrc, setting up the texture correctly in unity itself can already make a difference.
even if its the same 4k resolution texture.

[shrewd estuary]

i go outside!!

in vrchat

[warm cedar]

Davilos, I will destroy your asshole with my taser if you don't say sorry to this kid.

OR your mailbox

your decision

[near grove]

I completely understand

[shrewd estuary]

ayo?

[trim skiff]

im 22

[mossy python]

LOL

[warm cedar]

I'm 18, I make mistakes

[carmine moat]

crush compression, my best friend c:

[warm cedar]

sorry okayt

[fossil moat]

Crunch goood

[tender dome]

[bright jungle]

Crunch compression does not affect VRAM use, note

[shrewd estuary]

the weak crunch compression versus the strong hydraulic press

[rocky reef]

gamer

[mossy python]

Sorry I’m already taken

[modest sentinel]

jup only file size

[near grove]

Speaking of 18......I still feel the game should be rating M 17+

[mossy python]

Hi Eewee

[warm cedar]

I promise I'll keep it pg 13

[tender dome]

do i work on physbone tutorial or watch the bonelab teaser trailer 20 more times

[bright jungle]

that would cause more issues than it'd solve

[trim skiff]

i’ll destroy your hips with my weight

[warm cedar]

Bonelab

[stable mantle]

Yea. So should twitter. Who knows why these services get rated 13+.

[warm cedar]

trailer

Sipp

[mossy python]

The latter, that’s what I’ve been doing all morning

[carmine moat]

remind me of a friend that have a 200Mb avatar that just selected compression: None and told me "but i cannot see each pixel if i compress that's not good D:"

[molten cobalt]

work on physbone tutorial

[novel veldt]

bonelab? what's that

[bright jungle]

COPPA laws, and because making the game 18+ would make people think it's alright to do NSFW

[shrewd estuary]

bonelab

new game

[novel veldt]

oh

[shrewd estuary]

boneworks 2

[rocky reef]

I feel like physbones are very self explanatory, I'm sure a tutorial can wait.

[shrewd estuary]

sippbox your dps tutorial doesn't work anymore because of the update :[ /j

[molten cobalt]

there's a lot of quest user to never used Dynamic bones before so it's totally new for them

[rocky reef]

I'm talking about general use, not just with dynamic bones

[novel veldt]

when is bonelab releasing?

[mossy python]

Did somebody say Quest user and physbone

Do I need to bust out the copypasta again

[stable mantle]

No, COPPA prevents it from being under 13. That and the SDK and tooltips outright suggest NSFW is ok (it's not) so it'd probably be easier on the moderation to not have kids running around anyways.

[rocky reef]

I didn't know what I was looking at for like 5 minutes, but I found it out very quickly.

[molten cobalt]

no

[near grove]

I was saying M which is 17+ not A which is 18+. VR Chat is a US company therefore they have to follow US law.

[fossil moat]

What the hell? Bruh like it's not that bad, I used to have size issues, then I crunched literally every textures I had, then bam. Good size. I can't ever imagine not compressing at all. They crazy

[mossy python]

Killjoy but understandable

[patent hollow]

https://github.com/Thryrallo/VRCAvatarTools#vram-checker

[trim skiff]

also no kids with crasher avis

[bright jungle]

yes, it's set to 13+ because that's the minimum age COPPA allows lol

[near grove]

Gotcha

[bright jungle]

what

[tender dome]

but its got go karts https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/488479298530050057/966420857238990888/gokartBowling.gif

[bright jungle]

go kart pog

[shrewd estuary]

no wah

way

[near grove]

The game rating system under US law

[stable mantle]

Yes but that doesn't explain why though.

Does VRChat see the 13 - 17 crowd as that significant a player base?

[bright jungle]

have..you played in publics lol

[carmine moat]

idk i think they just jerk off each over looking at their 8k non compressed eye by totally not respecting the social distancing XD

[patent hollow]

13-17 is pretty huge

[bright jungle]

there's a lot of 13-17yo players

[tender dome]

what if we made

[wheat pelican]

Tru

[tender dome]

PhysBonelab

[warm cedar]

YERSH

[mortal plume]

loool

[bright jungle]

physboneworkslab

[warm cedar]

Please

[fossil moat]

Ewww 8K

[wheat pelican]

Yuuuuuh

[near grove]

👀

[fallow rock]

Lmao

[carmine moat]

wtf

[stable mantle]

On Meta the game has an ESRB rating of "T for Teen".

ESRB has a rating "M17+" that falls just below "AO: Adults Only".

[warm cedar]

Alright, sipp, I'll try one final time

Tupper live release moment?

[bright jungle]

yes, I'm aware of what the ESRB is lol

[tender dome]

what does that mean

[mossy python]

It means he’s impatient

[near grove]

Ah yep its AO not just A

[mossy python]

So am I

[wheat pelican]

Tupper live release moment?

[trim skiff]

the roxanne i have can go nude

[wheat pelican]

Woah

[mossy python]

You are the problem

[wheat pelican]

Lewd

[bright jungle]

what I'm saying is, making the game 18+ or similar would just cause more issues, without solving the issue of kids being on the platform

[modest sentinel]

u asked this literally over the entire day? u nothing better todo?

[warm cedar]

Nah it's a small little joke, I just want to annoy Tupper so I can friend him, he seems like an awfully nice person

[warm cedar]

Nope

[vestal vigil]

on the shader debate, how do you feel about having shaders included in performance ranks
I put a feature request in the canny https://feedback.vrchat.com/feature-requests/p/include-shaders-into-the-performance-rank-system

[modest sentinel]

xD

[bright jungle]

This is a 13+ game, with kids on it.

[trim skiff]

i bought that with my own money

[mossy python]

I’m an awfully nice person smh

[novel veldt]

i mean having any game as 18+ never stopped kids fork playing

[quaint geode]

Tupper is already copy/pasting his "LAST" message to snipe the channel ;D

[modest sentinel]

how would you calculate a shaders performance?

[warm cedar]

Wake up

[bright jungle]

that doesn't make it better

[vestal vigil]

noooo

[modest sentinel]

like anyone can make a shader and upload it to vrc?

[vestal vigil]

everyone is hyped

[warm cedar]

On PC yersh

[mossy python]

Do I have to

[near grove]

I was saying 17+ not 18+.....very important legal difference

[stable mantle]

Significant as in worth their time. is the 13 - 17+ crowd really the biggest playerbase with the highest concentration of VRC+ subscribers? Or is it little timmies in high-poly crasher meme avatars screaming about $19 fortnite cards all night?

[rocky reef]

Ah yes, the thing that will absolutely eliminate custom shaders from PC.

[bright jungle]

legal sure, practical no

[mossy python]

is privat shadrrr

[trim skiff]

they cannot report something that i bought with my own fucking money

[patent hollow]

unity profiler and profile analyzer

[modest sentinel]

like a performance ranking for shaders?
if quest is limited already there should be a reason to have it?

[bright jungle]

changing the game's age rating doesn't just magically get rid of the players under that age

[vestal vigil]

what good is an excellent ranked shader if it has a grabpass shader in it

[novel veldt]

they can if it goes against the game tos

[mossy python]

Yes they can (and I will if I ever see you)

[bright jungle]

also, this is off-topic to the beta

[warm cedar]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[quaint geode]

with the release of the Quest headsets, the average age range took* a nosedive, and more so with every following Christmas

[stable mantle]

No. But it's worth consideration making the effort.

[bright jungle]

and yes, the 13-17 crowd is significant

[trim skiff]

then i’ll instantly block you in vrc

[rocky reef]

Thing is, when something like custom shaders get put onto the safety system, there is no one real way to judge its """performance"""

[mossy python]

It’s better than what happened with second life

[bright jungle]

no, it's not lol

[modest sentinel]

no offense vrc is lazy enough to not pre calc the performance stats of your avatar and does it when ever a person loads in.
the performance ranking get locally on your pc calculated.

they not gonna make this something thats gonna be in the api

[stable mantle]

At this point, it's better than "WHY AreE Quest bones broKEN?!1"

[bright jungle]

verifying people's ages ingame, without privacy violations and the liabilities involved with that, is nigh impossible

[rocky reef]

And what will essentially happen is that there will be a list of shaders that are "good" "medium" and etc

[worldly temple]

why would spending money affect anything?

[bright jungle]

keep in mind, kids have been making fake IDs since IDs have been a thing lol

[shrewd estuary]

(plus they said they quite literally don't wanna do that)

[rocky reef]

But then there will just be a general blacklist of unknown shaders that will just be made very poor

[vestal vigil]

how long it takes to render is an easy solution, if a shader takes any more than like 0.1 ms to render thats an issue.

[bright jungle]

^^^^ this as well

[mossy python]

Because suspiciously wealthy horny furry moment

[modest sentinel]

its even calculates the performance stats on you client even when you dont show them
aka making it possible for people to crash you without them shown

[warm cedar]

TASER READY. I will deploy.

[mossy python]

Not me

The one that blocked me because I recommended a healthy lifestyle

[rocky reef]

And how do you propose an automated system that reads an avatar asset will be able to judge those kind of calculations?

[near grove]

Use a cattle prod.....basically a Tesla Coil on a stick

[rocky reef]

It's not reading GPU calls, it's just reading raw numbers.

[warm cedar]

Nope, taser.

[vestal vigil]

in the SDK a camera in a seperate scene could load each material slot on a ball and calculate the time it takes to render.

[stable mantle]

This mentality can jump in a lake because it's the exact mentality that has shot down many an idea. "VRC devs too lazy lol."

Well maybe if people stopped demanding new features they could make some QoL improvements, now, couldn't they?

[worldly temple]

If anything, spending your own money on an 18+ avatar gets rid of the deniability of "Oh I cloned this off someone because I found it funny"

[trim skiff]

i keep the clothes on

[rocky reef]

Okay, and then people can modify the SDK to just remove that functionality. Your logic is flawed.

[vestal vigil]

[rocky reef]

The performance system has to be done in runtime

[mossy python]

?

[rocky reef]

To prevent that kind of abuse

[vestal vigil]

this is for normal people

modifying the SDK is against the tos I believe.

[trim skiff]

yes it is

[shrewd estuary]

it is

[rocky reef]

Okay, let me tell you what """""normal""""" people did back in 2018

[warm cedar]

Hey Tupper Live-

[rocky reef]

Back when the hard polygon limit was a thing

[modest sentinel]

I made a feedback of it on the canny~
but i dont say they too lazy but its something that wouldnt require much time
its a easily json file they can generate and implement it into the api

[stable mantle]

I mean, other games do it. The only difficulty is the same difficulty now: Making sure a 12y.o. isn't lying about their age. Cause COPPA.

[vestal vigil]

so your reason is that "well there will be rulebreakers"
yes there will be rulebreakers for everything

[carmine moat]

it's a pretty big and fatal flaw... also , vrchat recalculate perf stat everytime you load an avatar in game, this calculation could make everyone crash if someone have like 100 materials

[near grove]

We don't talk about 2018......the meme wars were not that fun to live through

[vestal vigil]

But I insist that certain shaders be perf ranked, not perf blocked -w-

[fallow rock]

Fun times, old O***Sdk days

[worldly temple]

Notepad++ moment

[bright jungle]

can you provide an example that isn't run by a company 5x bigger than this one lol

[rocky reef]

Yes, but listen. Absolutely EVERYONE EVER modified the SDK to get around those kinds of limits. If they didn't listen to the SDK's forced rules back then, they sure wouldn't be listening now.

[vestal vigil]

it would be a seperate performance stat, it is one calculated in the sdk

[vestal vigil]

I haven't?

I'm a good person.

[rocky reef]

Okay, good for you. 99% of the player base did it back then, even devs.

[vestal vigil]

I don't break the rules

[mossy python]

Smh Eevee just let furriest (good person) tell you off

[warm cedar]

thought you were a toaster

[molten cobalt]

doesn't matter the good people if too many bad people do bad things

[rocky reef]

You're mom

[bright jungle]

Keep in mind that VRChat is played worldwide - you'd have to hire a team of employees that are not only trained in verifying US IDs, but also the IDs/etc from every country
VChat is not Facebook

[rocky reef]

https://tenor.com/view/live-slug-reaction-klaud-star-wars-gif-25152341

[outer python]

Cute avatar

[stable mantle]

VRChat shouldn't have gotten into business if they didn't want to accept responsibility for their actions???

This isn't a smoking gun???

It cost money to moderate???

WHAT?

[bright jungle]

strawman go brr

[trim skiff]

im just a fan of roxy so fuck off

[vestal vigil]

keep it family friendly

i guess?

[bright jungle]

again, this is off-topic to the beta lol, and has been argued over and over on the discord already

[stable mantle]

It's... that's not how it works.

[vestal vigil]

ive seen it countless times

[shrewd estuary]

[warm cedar]

T.O.S :]

[rocky reef]

Man the discord's rules got a lot more strict since last time I traveled these lands

[fallow rock]

Damn, there’ 3 conversions going on and one is getting heated

[stable mantle]

In fact collecting legal IDs tends to be pretty illegal.

[warm cedar]

Heya dots

[fallow rock]

[rocky reef]

I remember when the general chat was just based all day

[fallow rock]

Suh dud

[vestal vigil]

i think swearing isn't against tos but its just frowned upon :[

[naive dragon]

Holy shit the new IK is so good

[mossy python]

Not everywhere has it as good as skytown or blackistan

[naive dragon]

I don’t have to find a mirror every time I swap avatars

[warm cedar]

was talking about nudity toast

[rocky reef]

Let me send you something dav

[vestal vigil]

lets end the open beta discussion on a good note, shall we?

[bright jungle]

checking IDs isn't illegal, but it is a liability and privacy invasion
how else do you suggest verifying someone's age?

[mossy python]

O boy

[vestal vigil]

I think the devs are just waiting for open beta discussion to calm down a little.

[stable mantle]

So you want to talk about bones on Quest?

[bright jungle]

yes lol, that's what this channel is about

[raven laurel]

roblox tried ID idea

[bright jungle]

physbone beta

[raven laurel]

it ended as a meme

[mystic turret]

I need help ,I have been in beta but . Now can’t se any of my beta friends I Join is there a Fix for this on Quest ?

[novel veldt]

ah yes the SpongeBob SquarePants ID

[mossy python]

Remove the Quest physbone hard cap!!!1!1 My PUBLIC noodle dragon avatar (designed for PC VRChat in polygon count, material count, and bone transform count) is now a PAPER WEIGHT! This is unacceptable and I DEMAND personally (I am very important and influential could you tell?) that the limit be revoked before I tell my 7 Twitter followers!!

[vestal vigil]

open beta is not live compatible, sorry

you can only play with others enrolled in the open beta.

you can rollback to the current build of vrchat to play with your friends again

[mystic turret]

No I have friends in beta I can’t Se then when I Join them

[vestal vigil]

that's how the open beta works

[naive dragon]

Is the IK beta not live compatible?

[patent hollow]

maybe you're in the wrong beta?

[shrewd estuary]

ik beta is live compatible

[near grove]

Live compatible

[naive dragon]

Ok good

[vestal vigil]

he's probably talking about the physbone beta

[stable mantle]

Most services just make you accept an EULA. Facebook checks IDs for their real name policy not for age, and Im pretty sure they use an authorized company to do it, AFAIK.

[naive dragon]

Thank god

[mystic turret]

https://tenor.com/view/kuroko-anime-despair-hit-table-gif-21051524

[bright jungle]

accept an EULA..like the game already makes you do

[vestal vigil]

lets take that to #general-media

[warm cedar]

No good note until the beta releases

[vestal vigil]

don't worry, open beta reaches live within some time very soon!

[warm cedar]

which reminds me

Tupper Live rele-

[bright jungle]

lets take it nowhere and end it lol, it's the exact same convo that's been had ad infinitum

[outer python]

Stuff around age verification is not beta related but really if they can't figure out a way to do it they should contact Linden labs on how they handled it

[mystic turret]

I mean as in I’m in beta with friends that have beta and can’t seee them in the world they are innn.

[bright jungle]

anyhow - fizzboans

[vestal vigil]

#general-media if you could

please

pretty please

[near grove]

I successfully made a fake moving springjoint for Quest using Physbones :DDD

[shrewd estuary]

neat

[warm cedar]

Congrats! Take a cookie! 🍪

[bright jungle]

pog

[vestal vigil]

nice!

[stable mantle]

Im getting tired of the Quest talk as is everyone and this chat has momentum so I think a lot of people are trying to steer it away from the elephant in the room (quest limits).

[molten cobalt]

Linden Labs just checks if you have a credit card on file on them not actually checking if 18+

[outer python]

I want to see this

[bright jungle]

channel description go brr

[vestal vigil]

everyone has had a go about talking about it but you have to just wait for the right time /:

[fallow rock]

Yo that’s actually badass. Nice work.

[harsh bay]

Hmmmm? I haven’t ran into a issue like that before, cause both you and your friends being in the beta, should be Joinable?

[stable mantle]

Though Id be welcome for the discord gods to just rain down punishment on this channel by cloning the channel, nuking this one, and putting the other one in its place.

[near grove]

Oop. Thank you all. Okay I’ll post a crappy video of me moving the springjoint around somewhere. I dunno where to post it though

[outer python]

Can swe get a demo clip

[stable mantle]

Oooo nice

[patent hollow]

https://discord.com/channels/189511567539306508/356920171480481804

@near grove

[fallow rock]

You can toss it in #avatar-showcase

[mystic turret]

I can Join them but I don’t see anyone that’s in beta at all and I Join only the Dynamic world with beta users and se no one

[mossy python]

Imma dip out of this channel as it makes me lose brain cells at an alarming rate but peace y’all

[warm cedar]

youtube, create a tutorial. I'd love to invest my time into that

[near grove]

Oooo okie I’ll post it in one of those channels

[rocky reef]

Same

[near grove]

OOP

[warm cedar]

lowkey, that sounds amazing

[stable mantle]

Ensure your version number starts with 118 in the Launchpad's settings tab.

[outer python]

Sweet

[vestal vigil]

physbones will be interesting for sure

[mystic turret]

I’ll check that right now

[vestal vigil]

a welcomed feature, the devs worked very hard on it

buy vrc+ to thank them, or just thank them when you see them stop by

[outer python]

I'm really curious as to some of the creations we will see in a few months

[worn roost]

I will continue my unending whining about niche problems

[warm cedar]

I'd love to pay vrc+ but I like to personally thank them

shame that won't be possible lol

I did thank Kung earlier today

[limber quartz]

Scion forever living in edge case hell?

[outer python]

I think vrc+ is a great way to support them

[mystic turret]

How do I find the build number ??

[worn roost]

All that matters is Kung cares about my spiders 🥺

[near grove]

But where exactly is the money going it's not fully transparent

[shrewd estuary]

settings tab quick menu scroll down

[worn roost]

I need to test this build to make sure it doesn't break any of my systems but it should be fine. I kinda avoided using dynamic bones for procedural animation besides lamia

[stable mantle]

Open Launchpad (the menu that sticks to your hand)
Select the gear icon at the bottom
Scroll down.

[outer python]

Paying staff, maintaining servers and other random stuff most likely

[naive dragon]

VRChat is a free game. How do devs make money, as developing the game is literally their job.

VRC+

[warm cedar]

so uh

[near grove]

But VRC+ doesn't tell about ratios.

[warm cedar]

Tupper Live release whe-

[naive dragon]

What ratios

[outer python]

So

[molten cobalt]

I would point out like any video game you buy you're not going to get a precise breakdown on where the money goes

[tender dome]

why does that matter?

[naive dragon]

IMO 100% should go to their pockets

But it wont

Taxes

[near grove]

Quest tax

[mystic turret]

Yes it says 1188 Does it pose to have an extra 8 ??

[vestal vigil]

do it on the website, silly

but can you?

[trim skiff]

it’s to help keep vrc up

[stable mantle]

That's good. Beta versions start with 118 this time. It should be a 4 digit number.

[mystic turret]

Yeah it is

[stable mantle]

So it's not that.

[shrewd estuary]

you're one build off

we're on build 1189

update your game

[stable mantle]

Or maybe it is.

[vestal vigil]

if you want to avoid the quest tax just download vrchat on pc for desktop and buy it on steam

[mystic turret]

I’ll try through the app

[stable mantle]

Cries in MacBook.

[vestal vigil]

did i see zixha typing for a second

or am i hallucinating

i am hallucinating

[fallow rock]

The end is coming

[stable mantle]

repent.

[quaint geode]

is it the end? or just a new beginning? ;D

[warm cedar]

Zixha live release moment when?!?!?!