vrchat-general-2

[distant rampart]

But left the malicious ones alone for the most part

[ripe kelp]

thats because none were banned

[viral magnet]

I believe

[vocal shard]

We should give cvr say 15k people for a week and see how they fair it be a fun experiment

[tranquil bronze]

its because it didn't happen

[clear fog]

what about plague
wasn't plague banned

[hazy shore]

benefit of the doubt here that probably the person responding to that didnt know that melonloader could be used for other things and just assumed that it was a vrc only thing

[worthy oracle]

exactly, that’s the problem

[distant rampart]

Yes, which is why I try to atleast be a bit more civil.

[sharp saddle]

Oh no, it's VRC+ arguments all over again.

[vocal shard]

personal attack flaw ew 0 substance

[spice sun]

The github page says its for unity and not just for vrc

[distant rampart]

Some people are too heated and some people haven't researched at all.

[coarse blaze]

Worse

[sharp saddle]

I see that.

[distant rampart]

No one is personally attacking someone

[minor parrot]

Come sit in the corner with us, we have choccy milk

[distant rampart]

If you don't like it please leave the discussion

[vale pecan]

Because the devs REALLY fucked up

[sharp saddle]

[sharp saddle]

No, I don't think they did.

[viral magnet]

I got wine, chocolate, and some chips can I join?

[unreal verge]

@sharp saddle this is going on for over 25 hours now. Don't think it'll end soon.

[hazy shore]

i dont see how enforcing their tos = they messed up but go off

[worthy oracle]

well, that’s not new, is it?

[coarse blaze]

I should’ve gone to sleep 3 hours ago and it’s 9am now but I couldn’t bear missing at least part of the drama

[rancid trellis]

You serious?

[brittle dust]

and it shouldn't

[sharp saddle]

I literally just woke up from a nap probably an hour ago. I'm rarin'!

[distant rampart]

Most of the people talking did do research lmao

[vale pecan]

Correct. Power to the people.

[minor parrot]

Hell yeah man

[worthy oracle]

It shouldn’t end until the community is heard

[brittle dust]

This is the only way we can have the ToS changed

[minor parrot]

Let's vibe lol

[viral magnet]

I mean I was gonna watch some R6 all night but this is more entertaining

[unreal verge]

Yep for me about the same time yesterday as now it began

[coarse blaze]

The problem is changing ToS costs A BIG LOT of money (or so Tupper told me when they changed tos for vrc+)

[distant rampart]

That's the issue.

[rancid trellis]

Now that's a surprise for me. Not sure if it's a surprise to other people tho.

[clear fog]

they did a very nice research looking for modders names to ban them at least lmao

[distant rampart]

They are grabbing the "vigilantes" and holding them hostage and now its a breeding ground to use more malicious mods cause if they can't use those ones, people will turn to more hostile ones.

[tranquil bronze]

well with the ridiculous price of vrc+ they can afford it now lmao

[vocal shard]

!online

[floral flax]

There are 24919 users in VRChat currently

[ripe kelp]

@lapis gulch is a nice guy

[brittle dust]

what? For lawers?

[minor parrot]

Nintendo

[sharp saddle]

Hi Nep.

[ripe kelp]

yes

[rancid trellis]

Nintendo

[distant rampart]

Most of the money from VRC+ is a donation so it would be good use.

[vale pecan]

Let's be honest, they're lazy. They just joined VRCMG on an alt and banned all the creators with names that matched, don't give them credit they don't deserve

[distant rampart]

hi

[coarse blaze]

Not sure

[worthy oracle]

lmao

[minor parrot]

Imagine

[distant rampart]

Their own rules says they can change it any time actually

[coarse blaze]

Didn’t ask him that much

[minor parrot]

If that got out

[vocal shard]

Well... Everyone knows about it as a mod for vrc. If it has unity uses, that is good. But if it's still mainly used for vrc, and they're using unity tools as a way to justify it, that's not exactly honest either. I know next to nothing about it. But I'm sure there are things they could discuss in private... But instead chose to go to social media, and blow this whole thing up. I've also seen some mod makers here trying to calm the fire since they themselves think the hate is going too far

[coarse blaze]

Yeah but changing it still costs money

[tranquil bronze]

no it doesn't

[coarse blaze]

They can change it ANY TIME but not for ANY PRICE

[distant rampart]

I don't agree with the hostile people, but that's why I'm trying to be civil.

[coarse blaze]

Or so tupper told me lul

[viral magnet]

I use it for BTD6 and some other stuff, I heard about it from BTD6 actually

[distant rampart]

People feel like their voices aren't being heard

And its boiling over

[worthy oracle]

A lot of the people here have been civil honestly, other than the spam

[ripe kelp]

also, they didnt do research on the people they banned, they banned me for being a modder! they obviously didnt research

[distant rampart]

^^

[raw ivy]

It was created for BONEWORKS. It is called melonloader because melons are a BONEWORKS in-joke.

[viral magnet]

Shhhhhh just grab some popcorn @distant rampart

[clear fog]

who are we going to discuss with on DMs? we literally have no attention from the moderation team who banned us...

[brittle dust]

That is because VRC devs won't talk in private even when asked nicely

[vale pecan]

They went to social media because it was created FAR BEFORE being used for VRChat, and by targeting ML, the devs MASSIVELY OVERREACHED.

[brittle dust]

We have no chose

[distant rampart]

I'm eating pizza for the ones who are actively yelling at people for wanting a change and not contributing and the ones who want a change but resort to spam.

[candid acorn]

We wouldn't have issues like this if vrc actually engaged the community in any meaningful way. But their paranoia prevents this.

[distant rampart]

The ones who are civil I respect.

[distant rampart]

^^

[worthy oracle]

This

[vocal shard]

Why does it have vrc use though

[raw ivy]

Because they're both unity games

[vale pecan]

Why does VRChat use Unity?

[minor parrot]

Man someone should record this and put the benny hill theme over it

[brittle dust]

:wonders:

[vale pecan]

It's literally a Unity modding tool.

[viral magnet]

Knowing how coding works I know it's not this simple, but VRChat could (instead of slapping a bandaid on every new cut) fix the whole thing by making modifications to the VRChat files on your computer go bye bye

[vocal shard]

[sharp saddle]

That'd cause an even bigger problem, imo.

[distant rampart]

Its used for vrchat as a breaking point for mods from what I gathered, but the people who got banned were people who were making a positive change to vrchat and more malicious ones haven't been dealt with, its gonna boil over to people using malicious ones since the passive ones that actively check their code have been basically held hostage.

[vale pecan]

Why does this keyboard type letters? Why is this lemon sour? Why does this salt taste salty? WHY IS THERE SO MUCH WATER IN THE OCEAN?!?

[sullen ice]

The equivalent to this whole back and forth is similar to the argument in the US over substance use/abuse.

"Why are we arresting people for this kind of drug use? It shouldn't be illegal in the first place. They aren't hurting anyone" - The people in favor of mods
"The drugs are banned for a reason, there are laws. If we allow this, we run the risk of allowing more dangerous drugs in" - The people arguing against mods
"Just move to a state where it's legal, you have to pay the cost, but hey you'll get kindof the same thing here. It's clean" - The people arguing "just use VRC+ instead"

[clear fog]

I hope you aren't just going to ignore those jamie

[clear fog]

and this.

[viral magnet]

Like seriously

if directory.Mods = true
delete directory.Mods

[vocal shard]

Ah okie

[brittle dust]

@vocal shard It is for all Unity games, not just VRChat

[west yoke]

What's preventing those mods from tricking VRChat into thinking the file doesn't exist?

[sullen ice]

That sounds hella sketch. I don't want an external company modifying files on my own private computer without my explicit consent (such as an installer)

[viral magnet]

(that was an example, you make it so that if it detects another folder it just goes br)

Uh, buddy, that's what steam does

That's what happens when you download an avatar or a world

[distant rampart]

That's what people are angry about, and its rightfully so these guys from what people have looked into have been painstakeningly fixing issues almost instantly, verifying code, stopping malicious use, and they got their accounts held hostage whole malicious ones run scott free.

Its like a spark to a bigger issue

[viral magnet]

That's what happens when Easy Anticheat, the most popular anticheat for games is used

[vocal shard]

I don't even know who to contact regarding mod team stuff. I meant through the mod email appeals and stuff

[clear fog]

yeah they ignore us we tried
they don't want to talk directly at all

[viral magnet]

They download a .vrca file to your computer

[distant rampart]

If you're talking about the mod team itself

[vocal shard]

Ight guys time to ring up vrc's investors and make a proposition

[distant rampart]

I can help you find them, but vrchat lol

[brittle dust]

maybe #join-log

[ripe kelp]

not only will they rename folders. theres truly no way to stop modders, they find a way to mod anything. look at the 3060 and its "unhackable" driver. making vrc IL2CPP didnt stop modders, they improvised, adapted and overcame

[candid acorn]

This.
I remember this being an issue back before cats.
When you used mmd mechanim in unity. But since the mmd community got really angry at mmd usage in vrc they poisoned mechanim so that it would delete your sdk. Such features are malicious

[tranquil bronze]

who is the lead dev

[sharp saddle]

Who watches the Watchmen?

[vocal shard]

Yeah I understand now. Thanks!

[worthy oracle]

this game has a lot of issues that are improved by a community passionate about improving the experience of the game for a lot of users. those users are targeted, banned and repressed. ML was targeted and asked to be taken down, which is overstepping on their part. and then malicious mod creators are unscathed.

[vocal shard]

Might be Pill not very sure about that though

[sharp rose]

Pill is not on the moderation team.

[clear fog]

are you

[sharp rose]

Or a dev.

No.

[brittle dust]

If only all of this is just one big April fools joke

[vale pecan]

And all the modders want is to be able to talk with the dev team, and help implement fixes and features that legitimately make the game better.

[vocal shard]

then there

[clear fog]

then point us to the right direction

[brittle dust]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/816813372166373428/826685556229799947/image0-15.png

[distant rampart]

Alot comes from explaining peacefully and while some bad apples come and fight and one says "ITS TOS", its not gonna change anything as long as this stands like this, I think its gonna cause more issues, its like a pot over water and its boiling over.

If that makes sense.

[tall oriole]

dev

[viral magnet]

If a company doesn't want people to make mods for their game, they're within their rights to do so

[worthy oracle]

I dunno, I honestly doubt any devs have been reading or care

Doesn’t seem like they care about their community a lot of the time

[tall oriole]

Dev in chat

[jovial kestrel]

So long as people are on opposite sides of the fence, this sort of fire will have cinders.

[vocal shard]

I'm no expert on that, but I think there's legal issues with that. Security aside, I don't think the game devs can just "accept help" without some hurtles to go through.

[clear fog]

they're probably like "oh wait 1 week they'll forget about it"

[uneven escarp]

There is very little transparency between VRC staff and their community

[worthy oracle]

true

[ripe kelp]

trust and safety lead in chat

[vocal shard]

im fucking dying of laughter

[coarse blaze]

Isn’t tht what happened with vrc+ kinda

[distant rampart]

We need a firestomper and that needs someone with a position to do so to put out that fire or put something up that will lead to less fires.

[tranquil bronze]

VRChat: . . . BANG
Modders: banned
VRChat: . . . Who killed VRChat?

[viral magnet]

Ikr

[sharp saddle]

Sach isn't a moderator, I don't think.

[vale pecan]

The problem is- they show no willingness to even START with going through those hurdles. And NEITHER side will benefit unless they start.

[sharp rose]

Cant imagine when that wouldve been. Even so, if it were true - I'm not a moderator. So...yea. XD

[clear fog]

😫 give us a moderator

[jovial kestrel]

A mediator of sorts, yeah.

[viral magnet]

Sach just do team stuff

[distant rampart]

I wouldn't mind helping to bridge that gap but atm theres no way to do so without risking our own accounts and thats where the issue is.

[tranquil bronze]

or the mod team to listen to the community about these issues

[distant rampart]

We have no way to make this change because they all get lumped in the same.

[languid beacon]

What is happening and why is the upload UI in my scene https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/442444657428004866/826698178971435028/unknown.png

[sharp saddle]

[viral magnet]

Wrong channel

[brittle dust]

April fools

[exotic ether]

butt dynamic bone collider gang where you at -u-

[viral magnet]

Here

[distant rampart]

@jovial kestrel That's the issue and that's why people are still going its a fire that won't go out unless something makes a middle ground for it to settle on, which is why that library idea may be a good thing or talking to the passive ones.

[languid beacon]

help https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/142754291784876032/826697601449459752/unknown.png

[candid acorn]

I wouldn't say it's boiling over. But as much as vrc hopes people will forget lose interest or move on, it won't go away specifically because the sour taste this brings to people's mouths over the fact that modders that are actively trying to make positive, QOL mods and fixes, which yknow, technically lift the pressure off of the devs as local bandaids, get hammered in such a thuggish manner, while actual malicious actors are never dealt with, because surprise surprise, they are not as public about their actions. And therefore harder to deal with. That's why this won't go away

[jovial kestrel]

Switch to game view

[icy path]

Hello everyone

[distant rampart]

^^

[exotic ether]

need to be in game view

[vocal shard]

you probably somehow clicked the publish button cause on the hierarchy u have do not destroy on load. also ur in game screen. not in scene

[raw ivy]

This exactly

[minor parrot]

I'd be keen to see an official response as well

[worthy oracle]

Yep

[jovial kestrel]

Yeah. For now we kinda just have to be civil and bide the time.

[candid acorn]

Probably not

[coarse blaze]

Jamie and Atiesh are just janitors cleaning up the crime scene kappa

[vale pecan]

It looks like they did it on purpose to try and sidetrack the conversation, honestly

[sharp saddle]

How... how did this even come to light anyway? Lemme guess, Twitter.

[vale pecan]

Twitter, and the mod authors posting in their discord

[tepid flume]

why does it work for that other game then?

[vocal shard]

idk...

I seen a link or 2 from twitter

[surreal sun]

https://tenor.com/view/thriller-michael-jackson-eating-popcorn-watching-gif-5577709

[candid acorn]

If the team gets annoyed enough they'll just impose a hard cooldown timer and start moderation action to break up the conversation

[distant rampart]

A announcement would be nice, and maybe some actual research into these passive groups more, because I don't think its gonna stop unless something is changed, even if you banned each one more will just pop back up.

[distant rampart]

It'll start back up this is too big a issue.

[coarse blaze]

There’s a banvrchat hashtag going around on twitter now

[vocal shard]

Things are different when you're dealing with a corporation like vrc, and a small indie startup

[sharp saddle]

So... it's "I made a mod that got me banned. VRChat should give me clemency regardless of breaking TOS"?

[worthy oracle]

You miss the point entirely.

[distant rampart]

^^^

[vocal shard]

And also Melonloader's dev getting banned for making a tool for the unity engine.

[jovial kestrel]

Kind of, but it's a deeper hole than that.

[uneven escarp]

How big is VRC? There can't be that many layers of management, this isn't EA

[sharp saddle]

Interesting...

[tranquil bronze]

Yeah that is another thing, if the ToS says no nsfw content, then why is there a option to check your avatar or world as nsfw while uploading, that makes absolutely no sense, which is why the tos isn't as perfect as @jovial kestrel is acting like it is, there are so many hypocrisies.

[distant rampart]

^^

[grand ember]

I mean, I hate to see how this information getting out is in the wrong. Twitter is good for that.

[coarse blaze]

That’s how it is in every company tho, I work at customer support IRL as well and I always have to eat the hate for shit like “OMG WHY IS THE TOILET CLOGGED” and get yelled at even though I have literal 0 control over it

People are just too overreactice

[vocal shard]

Since a bunch of investors put money into the game, they kind of call the shots and own part of the company.

[distant rampart]

This is exactly why there needs to be a middle ground or a connection to the passive ones, they are the best line of defense because they have been correctly fighting this even if its against TOS.

[rancid trellis]

I don't mind this. What I do mind is the game not being performance-friendly. Then, people of the mod-making community who are passionate about improving the game improve the game. Those people get banned while malicious ones are free to roam. I get it's part of TOS but when you only ban the ones who improve the game, it's gonna make it seem like they don't care about the community, the experience, and how well your computer performs.

[vocal shard]

Until it's paid back with interest

[jovial kestrel]

Legacy thing they haven't removed from the SDK.

Yeah it's a mixed message thing and it's dumb, I'm not sure why tags remain at all.

[viral magnet]

Yeah it is kind of stupid and confusing

[tall oriole]

At least EA functions

[distant rampart]

To be honest if a library system was added and mods were verified from vrchat, it may not conflict as much, and it would also encourage people to use them safely anyone who uses a outside mod at that point has no reason to anymore.

[worthy oracle]

any millionaires in chat willing to donate to vrchat? kappa

[ripe kelp]

an investor shouldnt have a majority of the company to call the shots everywhere, thats bad business

[grand ember]

And dont forget the tip that says not to use NSFW in public, friends, friends+, which if you have to call it out, it implies its fine elsewhere.

[rancid trellis]

If only.

[viral magnet]

HEY ELON! There are cat girls here! Invest some stonks!

[coarse blaze]

No that’s China

[vocal shard]

They can still have say in where exactly their money is used, and leverage

[tepid flume]

so youre not even putting the money from vrc+ into developing the game but give it to facebook, etc?

[worthy oracle]

oof

[distant rampart]

It's why I'm trying to be non hostile

Anyone name calling or causing isssues like spam

[candid acorn]

To be fair, while technically nsfw of any kind is forbidden, you know they turn a blind eye to anything in private. They know their audience. What happens in invite stays in invite and they want you to keep it that way

[distant rampart]

Isn't helping.

[grand ember]

I mean, this just points to the same thing could be with mods too.

[distant rampart]

You can get banned if you get reported in private too, but you're less likely to.

[tranquil bronze]

I am trying to not be hostile, but I get very passionate about this kind of thing

[grand ember]

Once again, we're back to TOS are guidelines, not ironclad rules

[coarse blaze]

I actually did have a situation where it was left on us and we ate the blame as well “for not doing our job well”, but I’m just saying that it’s normal for them to get shot at like that, HOWEVER I do agree that the officials are taking their sweet time with the response

[viral magnet]

Aight not to say it would solve the problems in the conversation but I really want a chat mod to @ tupper right now to at least make people calm down for an hour

[brittle dust]

meme break: https://youtu.be/E7qdvzfEU-A

[vale pecan]

Exactly. If they don't enforce the NSFW TOS with an iron fist, why do so with mods? And why do it so suddenly, after leaving it for so long?

[distant rampart]

Yeah but sometimes some rules need changes, so fighting back without research isn't a good idea and in alot of cases outside of vr can lead to you getting hurt, its how you approach a issue.

[sharp saddle]

[sullen ice]

To be a devil's advocate here. It's probably backwards. The investment was for developing the game. VRC+ is for recouping that cost for the investment. At least, that's what I've gathered

[grand ember]

Tbf it likely should be both

[distant rampart]

It would prob only stall, it the move they did angered a huge community, because of how passive the people who are being held hostage are.

[vocal shard]

VRC+ is a step to pay back the investments and have more control again. The game received a few investments, with the last being a series C, focusing on getting the game into a state to start being self sufficient. From here on, the goal is to get the game into a state to keep itself afloat and pay back the investments.

Not official, but just my observation as an accountant

[ripe kelp]

@ ing them hasnt helped all day, dont think it will work

[grand ember]

I'm still surprised they didnt go the monetizing user content route

[distant rampart]

It actually says its a donation and they can use it how they want in the TOS.

[grand ember]

Like SL

[candid acorn]

Not like tupper can really do or say anything to help. He's just vrc's mouthpiece. Vrpill/ron/etc need to tell him what to say, otherwise all tupper can really say is "break tos, get banned. End of conversation"

[uneven escarp]

I'd expect any company to use your money how they want after you pay them imo

[worthy oracle]

That’s all they would ever say anyways

[grand ember]

Like creators get a cut, VRC gets a cut, we see more content developed here, everyone wins.

[distant rampart]

I'm talking about his case.

[worthy oracle]

They have never compromised

[vocal shard]

Yeah?... Or similar stuff, filling chat?

[ripe kelp]

tupper is like the tod howard of bethesda

[distant rampart]

Cause hes saying its mostly for investors.

But its actually for anything

[candid acorn]

Not really. Just it's not like this is his call

[sharp saddle]

That's stepping into commercial territory though which includes copyright violations.

[candid acorn]

I wouldn't go that far

[wind zealot]

Except it doesn't even work lmao

[ripe kelp]

he is the face, and both are buggy

[grand ember]

I mean, youtube, twitch, and many other services do the same.

SL handles it fine

[distant rampart]

if anyone is abusing the active chat mods, I rather them not argue at all for either sides, if you can't stay civil don't add to the dicussion

[rancid trellis]

16x the resolution,
16x the crashes.

[distant rampart]

Same goes for anyone who personally attack people about what they think is right.

[uneven escarp]

Good bot

[worthy oracle]

bro honestly the day this game runs well is the day I’ll believe they actually try for this game

[vale pecan]

and 16x the imbalanced application of rules and terms

[wind zealot]

it's trash cuz it thinks that 7 dots = spam, rip shy ppl

[grand ember]

You just remove monetization on copyright violation at least, and prevent users from doing so. Maybe require a fairly high trusted status to monetize.

[warped thorn]

Oh, it's this argument and situation. Again. Go post an official mod support thing on the canny and go on with your life. Trying to yell and scream, or be an "activist" hasn't ever worked in the past in VRChat. Only the higher ups can make any sort of decision here, so all you're doing is just wasting your energy and time typing here.

[ripe kelp]

mention staff, get warned, then banned instantly after

[coarse blaze]

Imo chat mods should just stat in the shadows for now so they don’t get attacked by idiots

[covert chasm]

This isn't true.

The Terms of Service in VRChat (or pretty much any service I'm aware of that has a Terms of Service) are not guidelines. You agree to them when you start using the service. Usually, breaking your agreement you made when you said "I agree" means that you will no longer be permitted to use the service. This is true for VRChat, but generally it depends on the document and how it is written. Pretty much all "Terms of Service" documents are like this.

[sullen ice]

That'll be the day it finally hits 1.0 and leaves early access. 10 years later! lol

[worthy oracle]

maybe even 20

[covert chasm]

This also isn't true, Flame, I have free will 😛

[candid acorn]

The canny is a joke and you know it

[vale pecan]

There are issues on canny that have been open for ages and don't even get a single reply from the devs. It's no wonder that people don't see canny as a legitimate route to give feedback.

[grand ember]

c. your User Content could not be deemed by a reasonable person to be objectionable, profane, indecent, pornographic, harassing, threatening, embarrassing, hateful, or otherwise inappropriate.

Yet you dont enforce this in private instances.

And in fact hint that its fine in your tips

[shrewd edge]

i'm gonna tell vrpill!

[viral magnet]

Oh god please Tupper lock down this channel for like one hour so people can chill, I've seen where this is going

[wind zealot]

ppl be memeing about u bein a femboi, give official statement 🎙️

[sharp saddle]

Heeeey Fus and Tup. o/

[brittle dust]

oh no

[coarse blaze]

Can you explain how stating in tos that you change tos any time doesn’t mean for any price, I kept trying to tell people that changing tos costs a lot of money but they kept saying no :(

[vocal shard]

@covert chasm can you unban causticlime

[candid acorn]

Yes
But things like this are still not something that were or really are on you. You've said it before yourself, you're not a mod.

[covert chasm]

I'm not a mod, but: All content that is reported is investigated, and all investigated content that is found in violation of the TOS is actioned appropriately. If nobody reports it, then no investigation occurs. If you find TOS-violating content, please report it.

[distant rampart]

We need a official response or something to help, the recent ban decision has torn apart the community, and people are trying to be polite about it, but we feel like we have no voice, Most of us have been keeping it civil however.

[mystic violet]

Just because it isn't enforced doesn't mean it isn't SUPPOSED to be ironclad. It's just the devs, again, failing. TOS is called TOS for a reason.

[worthy oracle]

You really think they would ever do that

[distant rampart]

No but its worth a shot

[grand ember]

No, it definitely means its at their discretion to enforce.

[vocal shard]

yeah 21hours later they finally speak up but just bloat discussion and not provide insight

[worthy oracle]

Since when has VRChat listened to their community

[grand ember]

They are by no means obligated to enforce it there.

[ripe kelp]

and yet i got banned from vrc for making mods when i have never made mods or been reported for it. hmmm

[worthy oracle]

this

[tranquil bronze]

Why would people report mods that are beneficial to the service then, and no malicious modders were involved in that ban wave.

[vocal shard]

🤔

[candid acorn]

When it aligns with their goals

[covert chasm]

AFAIK we just get legal type people to ensure the TOS is a good one, it doesn't cost anything other than that. 🤔

[minor parrot]

🤔

[tranquil bronze]

like this just doesn't make sense

[vale pecan]

Can you explain why I saw a chat mod awhile earlier basically say the ingame report button doesn't work tho

[brittle dust]

🤔

[covert chasm]

If that's true, you definitely should appeal via #moderation-reports

[sharp saddle]

It's called the "5th amendment". ;)

[wind zealot]

because they don't know it's beneficial, plus some ppl be doing that on purpose cuz anger and human stupidity

[distant rampart]

yeah i saw that too once

[covert chasm]

They're incorrect.

[arctic elm]

nail polish remover smells good

[coarse blaze]

I swear back in vrc+ release day and change of tos you told me that it costs a lot of money to change tos 🤔

[distant rampart]

That actually has been happening I overheard a few people in game who got banned who never even touched certain things and their appeals are being rejected.

Since this new banwave

[ripe kelp]

i did that, and i was told that i would not get any further information and now i get no responses.

[tall oriole]

Oh no it's tupper, I'm droppin

[tranquil bronze]

thats bullshit

[worthy oracle]

Switching topic to avoid taking the heat I see

[tepid flume]

What about when you banned psychloor?

[warped thorn]

Of course the canny is a joke. But it's a joke that actually does cause changes. It just goes at the usual speed of management. As in really, really, slow. You people nowadays are so used to instant, snap decisions. Why, I remember when this game saw a two-digit users online as "unusually high".

[wind zealot]

oh you haven't seen real bullshit mate

[viral magnet]

^

[wind zealot]

tfw only Tupper is typing

[covert chasm]

I honestly don't know who that is 🤔

[vale pecan]

Here's the link, @covert chasm

[viral magnet]

Bro i remember the mod call button

[wind zealot]

bro it's called an opinion, not a statement

[vocal shard]

I wasn't saying it doesn't work

[covert chasm]

Ah, yeah, unfortunately Jamie is incorrect. It's okay though. Our chat mods are not in-app mods, so kinda understandable they might think that.

[distant rampart]

^^

[covert chasm]

I know for a fact that in-game reports are actioned.

[minor parrot]

Why did y'all ban causticlime?

[distant rampart]

It's also why I keep telling people regardless of which side for the issue

Chat mods have no say and shouldn't be taken as 100%

[grand ember]

I think most people woudl consider that forutnate.

[coarse blaze]

Well, TO BE FAIR, jamie did say “imo”

[viral magnet]

They didn't? @minor parrot

[distant rampart]

Nor can they answer for the devs.

[ripe kelp]

then can we get a "user is underage of tos"?

[coarse blaze]

So jamie expressed that it’s his opinion and not a fact lol

[brittle dust]

But they still are your staff

[vocal shard]

I was trying to say tickets work better. But yeah I see my mistake. Thanks

[vocal shard]

yeah they did

[sharp saddle]

@lapis gulch

[viral magnet]

@lapis gulch

[covert chasm]

We definitely need to expand the reasons for reporting, yes

[brittle dust]

They are talking with VRChat behind them

[minor parrot]

They did

[vale pecan]

I really don't believe that very much, considering I've reported numerous crashers, and even reported one with video proof, and yet they still roam free.

[distant rampart]

^^

[sharp saddle]

Weird, I can still ping 'em./

[distant rampart]

There are quite a few groups ngl that don't get affected at all atm

[arctic elm]

it'd be cool to get an email or popup letting you know if a user you reported was actioned. idk if that's a thing, and if not if it's been put on canny

[distant rampart]

These are the malicious side everyone has so many problems with atm

[wind zealot]

i know chat is blazing, but are you going to ignore the femboi thing?

[grand ember]

No place generally does that.

[minor parrot]

Can we get an answer as to why causticlime was banned?

[covert chasm]

Not really? It'd kinda be like you going to the Overwatch Discord, then saying the volunteer chat mods there should know how Blizzard's moderation system works.

[arctic elm]

plenty of games do

[vocal shard]

dont change the topic

[ripe kelp]

nearly every child in this game is a quest user. before my perma ban, a child was yelling his phone number. another one was going around telling his HOME address

[viral magnet]

The only game I know that does that is R6

[coarse blaze]

Doesn’t share server tho

[tepid flume]

I only used the ingame report button once but nothing ever happened

[covert chasm]

You should report those types of incidents to #moderation-reports .

[sharp saddle]

Huh, true.

[distant rampart]

yeah theres a ton of children in the black cat now

[covert chasm]

augh

[distant rampart]

Every server is filled now with them

[hazy shore]

thats bad parenting at work, i dont understand how vrchat specifically is to blame

[uneven escarp]

Thing is, no one is going to leave the game to report people, when there is a report user button

[covert chasm]

Anyways. It isn't instant 😛

[ripe kelp]

an ingame report option for stuff like this is 100s of times faster than getting out of vr, opening the links and finding the childs name and writing a whole report

[distant rampart]

I've never seen the report button work at all either tbh, actual tickets seem more effective.

[wind zealot]

implement sort of quiz thing as age verification, it's a genius idea

[viral magnet]

Can we just clap anyone who is under 13 playing the game? Like seriously the amount of blood that has come out of my ears because children in here is ridiculous

[hazy shore]

duh but if you dont report those users then how would they know

[grand ember]

Thats a legal requirement, at least in the US, too

[uneven escarp]

except there is no option in the report menu for underage, so you can't 😛

[viral magnet]

And for VR in general I think it's advised

[tepid flume]

That was 2 years ago ;)

[covert chasm]

True. We'd have to find a way to provide more context to the moderator. Otherwise they'd just have the equivalent of you pointing at a random user and saying "they're breaking tos! they're breaking tos!!!"

[viral magnet]

SUS

[covert chasm]

Which uh, doesn't carry much power, as you might imagine

[rancid trellis]

So you expect people to report every single kid? And how many kids are in each server?

[uneven escarp]

So your saying the in game reports are near useless?

[hasty grove]

hi

[covert chasm]

I'm not saying that, but I am saying that your ability to take words that say X and make them say Y instead is impressive 😄

[hazy shore]

definitely otherwise how do you think they could find them

[uneven escarp]

I want in game reports to work, but they are just way too limited

[tepid flume]

Every manual system is neat useless at 46k concurrent users

[distant rampart]

We also need a response possibly to the holding hostage situation for that modding group thats passive, because I don't think that drama will die down unless a better response is made.

[exotic ether]

just do the Roblox way enter your birthday and if old enough get sent to the regular game if not only have certain worlds accessible to that age range

[wind zealot]

@covert chasm, is it possible/hard to make the in-game report work as a ticket. that later you can fill out on the website providing details?

[coarse blaze]

Personally I hate not being allowed to know the outcome of the report cause back when I played I reported a few people WITH VIDEO evidence of them crashing an instance and admitting to it (I wasn’t affected due to safety) and other ppl noclipping.. weeks later I checked, they were still playing

[covert chasm]

Maybe, but I think that's still a little too much of a pain.

[coarse blaze]

So I have belief that tickets are also somewhat ineffective

[distant rampart]

Most report things for any game never really tell you.

[ivory thunder]

I dont think Tupper will respond to this

[wind zealot]

as an optional part?

[coarse blaze]

League does, instant feedback report lul

[rancid trellis]

That's not the user's jobs. Reporting a couple might not be bad, but reporting every single one is not realistic and I wouldn't expect people to do that.

[vale pecan]

So far, Tupper seems to have avoided responding to anything to do with this situation, it honestly seems like nobody on the VRC team will listen at this point.

[distant rampart]

I'd rather bring it to him than harass mods even if it falls on deaf ears.

[uneven escarp]

Eh, they will ignore it

[viral magnet]

Shouldn't be that hard, the vrchat website already has an API to interface with the game because of the home page to tell when your friends are on

[distant rampart]

As at the rate it was going it was just going back and forth.

[covert chasm]

I can't comment on moderation actions taken against other users-- it is a matter of privacy, and I'm not a mod, so I'm not sure of the details of what's going on anyhow, so I couldn't give you any kind of response that'd hold truth.

[distant rampart]

I could inform you in dms maybe, so you can get a better understanding atleast? it may help with the situation.

[covert chasm]

Nope, don't do that.

🙂

[worthy oracle]

Cause they don’t care and never will

[tepid flume]

Maybe you should start communicating more inside your company then :D

[ivory thunder]

than petition the team to say something than cause like, its making them look very bad. and will continue to make them look bad

[wind zealot]

@covert chasm please comment on femboy part =)

[distant rampart]

Then its not gonna change.

[covert chasm]

My separation from moderation is 10000% intentional.

[mystic violet]

Not only this, but I don't think he even WANTS to involve himself.

[uneven escarp]

You are still PR though

[distant rampart]

I'm not asking for moderation status.

[sharp rose]

...talk to our coworkers? Who even does that

[vocal shard]

verify age by debit card link and 1$ transaction and it being resent back to you. this confirms you are legally old enough to have a debit card. IF a kid somehow convinces mum/dad to link it for them and he gets b& for being under 13ish child then next time he makes a acc he cant verify age via debit cause this exact card would be locked. simple. @covert chasm

[warped thorn]

Odds are high the moderation team isn't even on this Discord.

[ripe kelp]

oh yeah, @covert chasm im going to post the email that they sent me in response to my ban appeal real quick

[wind zealot]

wow only 10000%

[ripe kelp]

We understand you are requesting additional clarification regarding a moderation on this VRChat account. We do not provide additional information aside from the reason attached to the moderation, which is viewable by logging into the application.

[viral magnet]

PSH! Imagine! cries in college group projects

[sharp rose]

XD

[wind zealot]

lmao me

[vocal shard]

if u dont want id verification

[sullen ice]

psh, I work for a telecom, and even we don't communicate internally

[minor parrot]

Imagine communicating

[uneven escarp]

...how helpful of them

[covert chasm]

Yep, aware. That's what rec room does

[ripe kelp]

i know, right

[sharp rose]

Used to work for Microsoft, and big same, tbh. Youd think we wouldve but nah xD

[vale pecan]

That is completely unacceptable. And I saw mod authors complaining about the same thing, and being ignored by the modteam.

[wind zealot]

plz stop ignorong the femboy thighs part srsly xd

[sharp saddle]

I feel so very sorry for you.

[vocal shard]

they do? smart. implement it.

[sharp rose]

Nah, dont. It's okay.

[uneven escarp]

So appeal your ban, but moderation wont talk to you

[covert chasm]

me?

you want me to?

[ripe kelp]

and the reason in game is for creating mods, which i dont do

[distant rampart]

Are you part of the vrchat mod scene? If tupper can't hear it maybe I can bring it to you or someone who is, it might help shed some light and help out with the drama, elsewise I don't think its gonna stop.

[wind zealot]

you didn't lose sanity? HOW?

[odd edge]

actually most authors got unbanned, xaivier and requi are mainly edge cases

[sharp rose]

I'm not a moderator, nor have direct comms with the moderation team, no.

[sharp saddle]

Th-they killed Mixer though!

[wind zealot]

yesh

[sharp rose]

Oh that. ...yea. 😭

[covert chasm]

That's a very bad idea.

[vale pecan]

But the problem is- most. And these edge cases are being ignored.

[wind zealot]

aaw

[tepid flume]

Not quite right, we are in communication to "someone" from the team but i can't disclose anything obviously

[odd edge]

ye true

[covert chasm]

I think the most code I know is.. R, a bit of node, a bit of python

I could probably write some C# if I tried hard enough

[vocal shard]

[sharp rose]

I made a visual basic program once, in like...1997?

[ripe kelp]

yeah, idk why im banned and why requi isnt allowed to be unbanned, it makes no sense

[distant rampart]

hmm

[odd edge]

is dum

[arctic elm]

tupper programming socks?

[ripe kelp]

very

[wind zealot]

pog

[viral magnet]

Oop another team member joins the battle

[sharp rose]

pretty sure i remember integers are a thing. probably

[covert chasm]

I actually prefer Darn Tough socks, they're a lot warmer.

[rancid trellis]

Do any of you devs have some way of communication with the mod team? I'd expect at least some kind of communication.

[coarse blaze]

Tupper, I remember you said you voluntarily became the punching bag of vrc dev team, but I don’t think I asked why

[covert chasm]

Of course!

[wind zealot]

probably

perhaps

[covert chasm]

Because the people who actually can make cool stuff happen can make cool stuff happen instead of herding cats 😛

[distant rampart]

Can you inform us one of them then? because atm people feel like it falls on deaf ears so I kinda want to bring it to their attention a bit more, of course you don't have to, but it'll help.

[rose timber]

BTW, Quest 2 requires Facebook account and Facebook requires the user be 13 years old. They will shut down accounts of those reported too young using a Quest.

[sharp rose]

integers are a lie made up by Big Maths

[arctic elm]

who needs warmth when you can UwU instead

[odd edge]

is it possible for us to get some reasons on why now of all times did you ban mod creators?

[ripe kelp]

but every quest user is using their parents facebook accounts

[viral magnet]

fair

[tranquil bronze]

facebooks moderation team has been known to be quite unreliable at times

[vocal shard]

so did u manage to change the topic yet?

[sharp rose]

I can say we pass feedback along and it gets passed to any team its directed to. After that, idk mang

[wind zealot]

i live in russia, i don't even know what is and what isn't a lie

[viral magnet]

The amount of quest users ive seen who are like 7 is ridiculous

[sharp rose]

oof

[rose timber]

That's against Facebook's own TOS for Quest use of a facebook account

[distant rampart]

That's all I need tbh

[coarse blaze]

Does that include getting banned in vrc for underage? Cause bypassing facebook’s age thing isn’t hard lol

[wind zealot]

very sad

[covert chasm]

Maybe I gotta be a bit more clear: All moderation-related questions have to be sent via #moderation-reports . If you ask any of us moderation related questions, you're just going to get my thoughts on Stargate Atlantis and why its better than people give it credit for

[odd edge]

lol

[distant rampart]

I don't need a direct staff but someone who can atleast pass it along.

[worthy oracle]

No point

[distant rampart]

lol

[sharp rose]

SG-A wasnt that great and I'll fite u m8

[worthy oracle]

lol

[viral magnet]

(might be a more productive discussion than this tbh)

[sharp rose]

bring it

[ripe kelp]

ok ok ok, its against their TOS. but look at the people that break VRC TOS, do you think the quest users on facebook also break TOS?

[rancid trellis]

If that's the case, then do they at least know that users are aware of the mod team situation?

[covert chasm]

i bet you liked post-RDA SG1

[coarse blaze]

But don’t you want to make cool stuff too

[sharp saddle]

Nerd fight!

[ivory thunder]

than is someone from Moderation going to say something than?

[uneven escarp]

What did you think of Stargate Universe?
Also, VRC staff needs to talk to their community more

[sharp saddle]

What's RDA?

[uneven escarp]

Richard Dean Anderson

[covert chasm]

SGU was really great. I enjoyed it a ton.

We talk to our community quite a bit! There's not many Discord and games where you can hop in and talk to a dev (even via DMs) at pretty much a moment's notice.

[vocal shard]

nice way of evading questions tho

[wind zealot]

in the hall of the mountain king intensifies

[tepid flume]

Not to; they need to start talking with their community

[covert chasm]

I can't evade questions I'm literally incapable of answering.

[tranquil bronze]

probably not wise to refer to your community as herding cats

[desert frigate]

@covert chasm "The ingame moderation tool only requires you to have the admin_moderator tag which they (tupper) do have so I don't see why they say they're not a moderator" a modder you unjustly banned.

[vocal shard]

[covert chasm]

Are you telling me half this chat doesn't have cat ears on their avatar?

[solar spindle]

help someone made a fart noise and then my game crashed

[covert chasm]

If you are, you're lying to me.

[vocal shard]

shhhoooor

[jovial kestrel]

I don't.

[covert chasm]

close enough

[wind zealot]

blasphemy

[uneven escarp]

Can help find answers and stuff though

[sharp rose]

I should put cat ears on my avi...

[vale pecan]

Correct. There needs to be productive discussions, which there aren't right now.

[viral magnet]

Oh shit! He found me out!

[meager trout]

Lies, My avatar is a cat!!!

[worthy oracle]

There’s been fairly for most of today

[sullen ice]

Either you have a point or their ears do. hmmmmm.....

[warped thorn]

Welp. Time to go back to Blender. Time to go add cat ears to my avatar.

[rotund cloud]

My avatar is of Obama

[tranquil bronze]

You got me there, but my point still stands

[worthy oracle]

Guess what tho, I think it was all ignored like usual

[ripe kelp]

also, id like to know why requi and i are not allowed to be brought back. every other modder got the chance to come back by deleting their stuff on github. neither of us got that option. and if I was given that option, theres no way for me to do that task because my github is empty

[coarse blaze]

I guess tupper doesn’t need to make cool stuff, he can just be cool with probably some of the best retortions I read xd

[solar spindle]

farded

[covert chasm]

We're willing to have productive conversations. We are not willing to have productive conversations about moderation, because none of the moderators are here (and if they were, they wouldn't talk about moderation in public).

[rancid trellis]

I assume the mods know then since my question wasn't answered.

[solar spindle]

(harded)

[vocal shard]

doesnt surprise me they are dodging questions and changing the topic

[worthy oracle]

yep

[sharp saddle]

[ripe kelp]

well can a moderator like, idk, msg me back

[solar spindle]

all fs u r slurrrr

[wind zealot]

moderation in public is so ancient rome, right @covert chasm ?

[covert chasm]

I am asking you to ask me questions, you just keep giving me ones I'm telling you I can't answer

[ivory thunder]

so what you're saying is, we'll never find out why they banned and basically blackmailed the mod creators than eh ?

[vocal shard]

[coarse blaze]

Best candy?

[ripe kelp]

requi was told to "wait out" his perma ban, i was just told "no further information" what is this moderation?

[worthy oracle]

lmfao

[distant rampart]

:(

[tulip forge]

Obviously beets - they're nature's candy!

[vale pecan]

I'm.. inclined to agree with everyone saying you're dodging questions. But here's an easy one you should be able to answer- are there any plans to talk with mod developers, in an effort to either implement features they've created, or exchange ideas, in an effort to improve the VRChat platform?

[distant rampart]

^^

[sharp rose]

Not citing this specific situation (and I'm not exactly an expert on the topic anyway) but - isnt that a bit of a loaded question? It'd be like me asking you so do your parents know you kick puppies? It assumes a lot.

[tranquil bronze]

Yeah, if the dev team actually cared about improving the client, and this can be done by working with modders and their community, then there would be no reason to mod, boom problem solved. When you create nothing but friction like this in a community it doesn't help anyone out, it doesn't help you, it doesn't help the modders, it doesn't help the users affected that use your platform. This is what makes me so mad, about the whole situation.

[covert chasm]

Any moderation questions must be submitted via the link in #moderation-reports and must be submitted by either:

• Someone reporting an incident, or
• Someone appealing their own moderation

You won't get any answers regarding moderation in this Discord. Just like... read that last part a few times. 😛

[coarse blaze]

I’m ashamed to admit that I’m a Lithuanian and I never tasted beet despite it being part of our culture

[vocal shard]

@covert chasm May I know why causticlime got banned from this discord when he didn't actually breach any ToS? Seems more up your alley as the community manager....

[covert chasm]

You can ask them to submit a ticket via #moderation-reports .

[hazy shore]

i dont understand why people are upset if its on the vrchat tos that modding is not allowed

[coarse blaze]

Not the sweet beet at least

[worthy oracle]

This

[ripe kelp]

he was banned from the discord

[vocal shard]

He's banned from the discord...

[coarse blaze]

Only beetroot

[uneven escarp]

And what if moderation doesn't reply to you like xaiver?

[covert chasm]

Feel free to send him the link!

[viral magnet]

I like how I look at twitch for 1 minute, and then I come back and people have written the entire works of shakesphere

[covert chasm]

This one: http://help.vrchat.com/hc/en-us/requests/new

[wind zealot]

banned

[rancid trellis]

Accurate.

[sleek stratus]

he cant rejoin, discord bans dont allow that

[tranquil bronze]

wrong link

[worthy oracle]

yes

[covert chasm]

No, the link. The link to the ticket system.

[vocal shard]

dodged?

[vale pecan]

And, as I expected, my simple yes or no question has been ignored.

[desert frigate]

how about you do it yourself mr. community manager

[worthy oracle]

ignored

[tulip forge]

What's your favorite candy?

[tranquil bronze]

to be fair you probably should have clarified as context is lost in a chat moving as fast as this

[ivory thunder]

itsa kind of hard for me to agree with you when the people who got banned were basically told "Delete your github, or stay perma banned"

[brittle dust]

Melon pops

[sharp saddle]

It really shows how many people don't understand how any of this stuff works.

[odd edge]

oh right, would it ever be possible for modders and VRChat team to meet up? :3

[wind zealot]

can we have a leveling system with the ability to use custom emojis on the server like getting trusted in vrc?

[vocal shard]

doesnt surprise me anymore

[odd edge]

maybe talk about various fixes?

[sharp rose]

I don't recall anyone here saying that.

[worthy oracle]

I give up chatting here

[uneven escarp]

Would be great if someone could help manage that for the VRC Team

[odd edge]

it was "private or delete all vrchat mod related repos"

[vocal shard]

devs just doing dev things. ignoring the community

[hazy shore]

seriously though some actual feedback here is that modding should have been stopped a long time ago to prevent this from happening, otherwise you have armchair devs telling actual devs why implementing features that are costly server side is a good idea and why vrchat should be a free game forever with no monetization which is a good way to shut down 2-3 years later down the line

[rancid trellis]

Just enjoy the show.

[covert chasm]

Not any that I'm aware of at the moment. Usage or creation of those modifications are violations of the Terms of Service.

[minor parrot]

Enjoy the show my dude

[worthy oracle]

True

[ripe kelp]

but for everyone except for me and requi

[coarse blaze]

Hmm, here we have a chocolate candy literally called “Pineapple” in my language and they’re basically a chocolate candy with pineapple flavour

I also really love the russian popping sour candies, forgot their name, they basically have a mixture inside the sucked candy that slowly becomes exposed and it starts popping in the mouth

[odd edge]

modders would be more than willing to organize it

[ivory thunder]

ahh .. you probably dont pay too much attention to stuff concerning the community than.

[odd edge]

ive already corrected your statement

[distant rampart]

There's alot more going on than that, that's why people have been talking about it for the past 24 hours.

[sharp rose]

That isn't what I said, and this is another loaded statement. 😛

[fierce surge]

Hey Tupper, I bet you’re having fun dealing the the fallout of the VRC teams decision to pull the plug on many mods that made, light to significant changes to the VRC runtime. I hope that from this instance of the banning of these creators you and the rest of the team can move forward in setting a standard of responses to modifications of the client and maybe not be quite as sudden with these decisions. (I understand that modification of the VRC runtime is prohibited, and thus your decision is well within your bounds, and these people had been previously warned Again, back in like January? (I can’t remember the exact date) that these modifications are again not allowed)

[plain wren]

I got popcorn and peanuts, who wants some?

[raw ivy]

@covert chasm The issue mods creators have, is that VRC is strong-handedly taking down only the above-board mods which all are non-malicious, while not hitting malicious modding (because they are not public, so this is understandable, but it still creates this outcome). The main problem, is all these QoL changes modders have made, are a requirement to play for lots of the playerbase, because VRC hasn't integrated any their features themselves.

[night iris]

i feel a bit bad for getting VRC+, thinking it would support this game to be better when instead it's supporting such divisive actions for the game's own community

[brittle dust]

none of the mods are server side

[tulip forge]

That sounds delicious! I don't think I've seen pineapple and chocolate paired much in the states, but I'm a fan of both.

[ripe kelp]

@covert chasm should i make a 3rd ban appeal? its been 6+ hours since the 2nd one and the moderation team is still ignoring me. who do i appeal to if moderation ignores me?

[odd edge]

why modders and devs should meet up

[viral magnet]

I like how this went from like 10 people talking, to a lot of people talking, all civil, and now we're all throwing shit at each other. Like seriously call you all stop attacking each other? Goes for both the community and the mods.

[vale pecan]

We realize this. However, when those modifications improve your game in such a large way, there has to be some point where you realize that these mods basically are relied upon for quality of life, and should be implemented into the base game. Especially when only these quality of life mods have been targeted by moderation actions, while malicious mods used at the detriment of other users continue to be distributed freely.

[hazy shore]

they call upon the server to retrieve information which can get expensive but again you wouldnt know this

[rancid trellis]

To be fair, I've seen longer.

[covert chasm]

I'm well aware of what people have been talking about, but my stance basically remains the same. They're violations of the Terms of Service, that kinda ends it in my mind. But again, not a mod

[uneven escarp]

Yea, was hoping VRC+ would let VRC be more independent

[sharp rose]

Depending on volume, it could take a few days or more. I'd imagine they have a lot of them to go through.

[ripe kelp]

the first appeal took less than an hour

[desert frigate]

you are tho

[viral magnet]

He's not tho

[ivory thunder]

I honestly dont understand why you think that, really, I dont.

[ancient folio]

To those that keep asking specific moderation questions, please go google the word: "Confidentiality".

[sharp rose]

Mustve been a slow day

[ripe kelp]

and all the other modders got theirs in the same time

[covert chasm]

You can appeal again I suppose? The message you linked before looked like a response to the question "why'd I get banned"?

[sharp saddle]

No he's not? He's essentially the spokesperson of VRChat, not a moderator.

[odd edge]

yep i can vouch

[distant rampart]

As I said, though its not gonna end and we have no way to bring this to their attention and we're all feeling ignored, and its sparking a bigger issue, I understand your position but your not understanding any of ours.

[coarse blaze]

Yeah I noticed that US doesn’t have a great choice in terms of candies, here in Europe we have Belgium which is known for having THE best chocolate ever, seashell chocolates <3

[odd edge]

modders got their responses within 10 minutes

[brittle dust]

no, no we don't we avoid the API like the plague like it is

[sharp rose]

send belgian choccies pls

[covert chasm]

I am? Should I update my LinkedIn? 🤔

[odd edge]

^^^^^^

[desert frigate]

The ingame moderation tool only requires you to have the admin_moderator tag which they do have so I don't see why they say they're not a moderator

[cold quiver]

But did you enjoy that fantastic elevator scene in star trek discovery's season 3 finale?

[covert chasm]

If you'd like, we can turn the API off 🤔

[sharp saddle]

Where is this info coming from?

[covert chasm]

dont talk to me about DISCOVERY

[odd edge]

just being on the team allows moderation privileges

[shrewd edge]

don't do that

[vale pecan]

They're referring to the fact that you have the $isModerator = true flag on your profile in the API.

[distant rampart]

^^

[covert chasm]

Oh. That's just leftover terminology.

[odd edge]

modders

[desert frigate]

one of the modders they banned actually

[uneven escarp]

API being off makes Fusl sad

[brittle dust]

yes please, for another 3 hours if you would

[viral magnet]

Welp, this was fun to watch when it was civil, now it's devolved to degeneracy. I'll be taking my wine.

[cold quiver]

I'll make a shit post vrchat map of that scene just for you :>

[vale pecan]

I also would appreciate a reply to this, if you don't mind.

[coarse blaze]

Check amazon or ebay, they might have them more accessible, belgian choccies are too good to not be listed

[rancid trellis]

This feels like bullshit but I'll just take the benefit of the doubt.

[covert chasm]

Just means I have an account that can teleport people around, some other stuff. I mostly use it to give people tours of VRChat.

[wind zealot]

tfw linkedin is banned here

[vocal shard]

Wine for me too?

[shrewd edge]

you're referencing something that a non-vrchat-client displays you, that alone tells you how much the modding community knows how the api works

[distant rampart]

So basically what mods do?

[sharp rose]

Companies change and update stuff all the time, that's not any kind of unusual.

[covert chasm]

We just haven't bothered changing it to.. whatever it'd be called. Seriously, its just laziness lol

[sullen ice]

Man, I'm angry about things, but even I understand coming after the Discord mods doesn't get things any closer to understanding who pulled the modding community bans or why they did it. I doubt that'll ever be truly revealed. Twitch, a much bigger company with a more robust mod team, still hasn't come forward for why Dr Disrespect got the boot. If Twitch won't talk about their practices, where do you think forcing a statement from VRchat gets?

Not saying there shouldn't be some sort of statement on it, but that kind of thing takes a well crafted message that won't be badgered magically into being.

[wind zealot]

can you get banned for using a moddified client? :^)

[sharp saddle]

The statement seems pretty cut-and-dry to me.

[covert chasm]

That's built into the base VRChat client. 🤔

[fierce surge]

To all of you VRC devs that are dealing with this stuff, I hope it doesn’t bog down your continued development of VRC and that you may even consider integrating or recreating some features from these mods that drove these creators to create them later down the line

[distant rampart]

If you're not a in game mod why do you have those powers then.

[rancid trellis]

Then judging the by the situation, it'd be best to change it, otherwise, people will get the wrong idea and you'll get blasted even more than you already have.

[wind zealot]

you

[coarse blaze]

No because they use their own versions and they usually have it only for debugging

[distant rampart]

You basically have a prebuilt client at that point

[covert chasm]

Moderators handle reports from users, incidents of Trust and Safety concern, violations of the Community Guidelines, TOS, that kinda stuff? I imagine they just answer tickets and look at reports most of the day.

[jovial kestrel]

Same client, different privilege.

[coarse blaze]

(Or so Euan told me, don’t bite me for that info)

[wind zealot]

but it's moddified still

=)

[covert chasm]

Again, I keep myself pretty separated. It ends up breeding conflicts of interest otherwise.

[distant rampart]

Not what I meant

[supple kestrel]

Can confirm. Knowing some code, renaming things in big projects is HARD, and can cause tons of bugs. Even worse if you have more than 1 project to maintain that all talk to each other.

[coarse blaze]

It’s not a mod if it’s their own code in their own game

[odd edge]

obfuscation xD

[tranquil bronze]

here is a suggestion, instead of trying to make an example out of modders and such and using an abuse of power to have things like melon loader removed, you could just have the game detect melon loader on startup and boom ban it from use, no more mods, instead of outright banning modders, and attacking the community, you eliminate the issue all together

[covert chasm]

Oh. I see! Well, either way, it seemed like you had a vast misunderstanding of what our moderators do, so

[distant rampart]

I never said I did what?

[sharp saddle]

I'm extremely confused. Like, more than usual.

[worthy oracle]

thats a horrible idea lol

[distant rampart]

Wait my brain confused now

[sharp rose]

I'm constantly confused, feel free to join me in the corner 😭

[tranquil bronze]

not at all phasmaphobia did it

[regal furnace]

soooo, did the situation from yesterday lift itself again?

[vocal shard]

Same... Just nod and pretend you know what's going on

[wind zealot]

smooth brain moment

[uneven escarp]

Hey, maybe banning tons of users would be good for VRC, less load on the API server!

[covert chasm]

No no, you said that you thought mods "teleported people around and gave people tours"

[hidden veldt]

Ahhh I love the smell of a PR nightmare in the morning

[covert chasm]

Which isn't true

[odd edge]

id rather have my account fucked than modding be stopped

[sharp saddle]

Smile and nod, boys.

[night iris]

did you also ban the people that are part of the problem, the people that come and crash us daily in public worlds whilst we just try to sit and talk to each other out of curiosity

[vale pecan]

I feel like they avoid this due to the fact that a non-insignificant portion of their playerbase is most likely using mods, and banning that many users overnight could kill their userbase.

[tulip forge]

nodding intensifies

[desert frigate]

do the moderators actually DO anything? i have yet to ever see a staff member respond to ANY kind of ticket

[odd edge]

cuz phas is a genuiine online game

[coarse blaze]

Or just have a random civil conversation with another person like me and Momo did :^)

[rancid trellis]

Smile and wave?

[uneven escarp]

Nah, those are avatar crashes, nothing to do with modding

[worthy oracle]

Yeah let’s just ban half the playerbase. Social list will still not be properly updated. (:

[distant rampart]

Wat, you said that tho

[sharp saddle]

To whom?

[covert chasm]

Our moderators handle those as reports come in. You should use #moderation-reports to report those incidents.

[vale pecan]

Not always.

[digital cloud]

@covert chasm you and a few more vrc team should meet up with the vrcmg modders to chat sometime. I think doing so could be beneficial for both parties including putting the modding community at ease about loosing their mods.

[odd edge]

well ac mods

[fierce surge]

Yes momo

[odd edge]

YES

[rancid trellis]

It doesn't have to be towards anyone.

[tranquil bronze]

not banning the users, banning the mod, it detects the mod loader on start up and just doesn't run

[covert chasm]

The way you're going about this is hurting my brain.

[fierce surge]

I concur

[ripe kelp]

you banned the modders that made the game not a living hell with all the new waves and types of crashers. they are protecting the community more than the base game does

[supple kestrel]

He said HE does that. Not the mods.

[worthy oracle]

bro please

[night iris]

I use the in-game reporting system. Does the in-game reporting system function as advertised? We get zero positive feedback on it's use

[distant rampart]

LMAO my brain is getting confused too DW, but its basically what some of those mods do teleporting and whatnot

[wind zealot]

nod

[sharp saddle]

Remember the Destiny launch debacle, how everyone gave their community manager shit for not fixing their game?

[brittle dust]

Why was @visual kayakbanned for mentioning ChilloutVR?

[vocal shard]

I've said this earlier....banning mods is all about the money.

[covert chasm]

No, I was too busy playing Destiny. 🤔

[wind zealot]

this is confus-ception

[raw ivy]

A major section of the VRC playerbase uses mods. Because basic QoL features are missing. Make mods obsolete by making them game better, not just strong-arming them out.

[minor parrot]

Wait you can get banned for mentioning ChilloutVr?

[rancid trellis]

Wait, seriously?

[jovial kestrel]

No?

[covert chasm]

No, that's a silly rumor someone made up.

[tranquil bronze]

yep

[worthy oracle]

yes

[coarse blaze]

Probably banned for inciting the melon spam, no?

[covert chasm]

Oh, yeah, maybe that.

[ivory thunder]

than you should probably unban them.

[wind zealot]

do you play cvr?

[sharp saddle]

I was too, tbh. PS3. But yeah, people don't understand what the job of CM is and think "Oh, he's on the team, he has the power to fix things!"

[vale pecan]

No, it was for advertising.

[tranquil bronze]

it was like 5 melons my guy

[covert chasm]

NicoKuroKurasagi gave me an account a long time ago but I haven't logged on, no.

[sharp rose]

-quietly plays Evil Genius 2 alone and friendless-

[distant rampart]

yeah melon spam wasn't the way to go, it doesn't help either side.

[tranquil bronze]

that isn't spam

[jovial kestrel]

Advertising is against Rule. 10.

[uneven escarp]

He should have the power to talk to those in charge and team leads

[worthy oracle]

I’ll go find something to snack on

[wind zealot]

poor thing... (ps put 2x ~ on each side)

[supple kestrel]

I'm watching BurkeBlack play it.

[coarse blaze]

Oh I do remember he said “let’s go play on x”

[uneven escarp]

Anyway, play ChilloutVR~

[tranquil bronze]

he didn't advertise though

[sharp rose]

It's so much fun, its everything I wanted out of a sequel 😄

[coarse blaze]

That is advertisement

[brittle dust]

ChilloutVR good

[covert chasm]

Didn't.. didn't Atiash just say don't do that lmao

[wind zealot]

say, what is that, i never heard of it xd

[coarse blaze]

Advertising is telling people to use a product

[supple kestrel]

It looks really compelling. I'm actually thinking about picking it up.

[sharp rose]

Evil Genius 2, it's on steam m8

[vocal shard]

@covert chasm you wanna hear a story how a different company handled the EXACT situation happening to them as it is happening in here?

jagex the company behind runescape/oldschool runescape was having a problem with macroing users and bot clients. they tracked down the guy behind the macroing software client and presented him two options.

1. either they sue him and fine for him affecting the game with his bots or
2. hire him to work on antimacro software as a developer.
   he agreed to the 2nd.
   he manage to put a end to macroing and created a extremely accurate macroing detection system. furthermore he managed to keep updating the OSbuddy client (without macro abilities) introducing qol and accesability options. the company only required it to be open source and would scan through it with every new iteration.

then another client emerged called runelite which was also open source and allowed user made plugins in. it was also being checked and approved by the developers and they coexist making together inprovements to the game.

from the mutual goal the company pushes the most popular qol stuff from the clients to base vanilla game.

let that sink in ur head.

[sharp rose]

doo eet, I love it

[wind zealot]

what is it about?

[regal furnace]

id rather argue it is a unpolished and overhyped mess with some pretty good ideas and concepts as of now

[tepid flume]

So you can get banned for mentioning it?

[covert chasm]

That sounds so much like the rumors of how I got hired that I have to roll to disbelieve

article link pls

[vocal shard]

There's a difference between talking about something, and advertising it

[vale pecan]

Another great example is the modder who created a mod which fixed the INSANELY long GTA Online loading times. Instead of banning or suing the developer, Rockstar paid him a bug bounty and implemented the fix!

[covert chasm]

I mean, if its in a way that violates the rules, probably

[worthy oracle]

bro this

[fierce surge]

There are good alternatives to VRC, however each of them have their up and down sides...
this is how you talk about other games without advertising them

[ripe kelp]

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/ngor/4-jan-2011-jagex-hire-former-bot-designer-t1212.html

[wind zealot]

plz go play Epic * scuffed * BHOP simulator 2023 pog champ

[ripe kelp]

link

[vocal shard]

Well I have a friend that got banned just for criticizing the devs over how the game was built

[hazy shore]

to be fair that developer wasnt making gta online cheats or mods beforehand though

[uneven escarp]

So saying anything that implies someone should play a game, is bannable?

[vocal shard]

[minor parrot]

🤔

[tranquil bronze]

Yeah, if the dev team actually cared about improving the client, and this can be done by working with modders and their community, then there would be no reason to mod, boom problem solved. When you create nothing but friction like this in a community it doesn't help anyone out, it doesn't help you, it doesn't help the modders, it doesn't help the users affected that use your platform. This is what makes me so mad, about the whole situation.
(reposting this again for relevance to the conversation)

[uneven escarp]

Like, you should play Destiny 2, I find it fun

[night iris]

Has VRC ever considered offering bounties for exploits and bugs? Or security problems?

[wind zealot]

it's a legit game btw, free on steme

[odd edge]

please vrchat talk to the modders!!!!!

[hazy shore]

youre blatantly instigating but go off

[covert chasm]

Your source... is a random tapatalk forum post??

[vocal shard]

In your context id say it's fine. Other people who are just like "vrc bad, play cvr" is different

[coarse blaze]

I do like tho how people purposely ignore the role of the yellow names in the game

[covert chasm]

You might as well have linked me a 4chan thread

[odd edge]

we dont exist just to make the game shit. we make mods to improve the game and we are willing to help the devs

[vale pecan]

It is true, I've played since 2009.

[grand ember]

#vrchat-general-2 message

[coarse blaze]

Working at customer support myself I can really understand their pain lul

[ripe kelp]

its still a member, and the article has the actual sources

[warped thorn]

Is that an invitation, Tupper?

[vocal shard]

take notes. dont fight the community but work together on same goal

[sharp saddle]

The source redirects to the RuneScape Wikia, probably an old article.

[vocal shard]

Yeah you know that actually would be avenue for them to make more money.

jesus its like talking to children

[odd edge]

please ;-;

[worthy oracle]

worse than that

[minor parrot]

I do think there should be a conversation between the modders who genuinely want to improve the game and the dev team.

[vocal shard]

Sale the mods themselves

[odd edge]

we literally do not mind giving code or helping

just as long as it gets added and were credited

[covert chasm]

Out of curiosity, if there was a conversation as you suggested, what would you expect to occur?

[worthy oracle]

Just re-code the game ground up. Maybe then y’all can fix all the issues

Kek

[covert chasm]

That isn't reasonable.

[hidden veldt]

Hopefully a whitelisting of specific mods or a way to integrate them into the base game

[hard sequoia]

i think a better example of game devs working alongside modders is the team fortress 2 community, - or valve in general. in a more recent example, a fan of half life alyx designed a fluid shader for the bottles, and it ended up implemented in the game.

[coarse blaze]

“Gib code”
“Ok”
patch
-Added x (thanks person!)

Lol

[odd edge]

we could talk about various fixes for bugs and also features that are important to impliment, mainly expanding the safety system because its far too easy to crash someone

[tranquil bronze]

neither is mass hardware banning people that made your playerbase happy

[wind zealot]

make vrc open source like telegram

[fierce surge]

If only game dev was actually like that

[jovial kestrel]

||Make VRC Stadia Exclusive||

[hidden veldt]

Not true from what I understand

[vocal shard]

Could sale the mods as paid add-ons

[vocal shard]

person then files lawsuit for stealing code

[sharp saddle]

||Spicy.||

[regal furnace]

wasnt that one of the actual devs implementing the booze shader during lockdown because he was bored?

[minor parrot]

Potential collaborative patches and fixes for issues in the game, among other things. There are mod authors in this chat who are willing to talk

[fierce surge]

Perfect

[uneven escarp]

Work towards some sort of community workshop/vetted moddding system would be ideal, but has been stated before that it would never happen

[warped thorn]

Absolutely nothing. Because upper management is what makes the real decisions. You want to change something? Go post on the canny. Maybe some higher up will see it and decide to go in that direction. Otherwise? You're wasting your time and energy.

[fierce surge]

Remember the last time we had a community workshop?

[coarse blaze]

Just do the legal stuff to avoid the similar melody x digirev drama

[worthy oracle]

Canny doesn’t do shit

[odd edge]

maybe talks of a bounty system. tbh we dont even need to get paid just let us make fixes without getting banned

[boreal ore]

A conversation with Mod creators IMO would be about OK some people want mods. Here is what The VRchat team wants. Here's what the modders want to do. Come to a compermise and impove both situations.

[vocal shard]

https://rsplayers.fandom.com/wiki/Mod_Jacmob

[raw ivy]

For at least the simple QoL features offered by mods being integrated into the game, making most modding obsolete, before cracking down on all mods that are nonmalicious.

[hard sequoia]

i could have been mistaken on that one, but the tf2 example is obviously still solid. they were very vocal and transparent about working with community creators to improve the game

[covert chasm]

I mean, that isn't quite how VRChat works. I'm asking a question. 😛

[vocal shard]

Yeah, Valve in general iirc. Esp with older games.

[warped thorn]

It's responsible for a lot of the changes that VRChat has done over the past years. Yes, it's slow, but it works.

[odd edge]

the problem is its slow, it lets exploits get way out of hand

[worthy oracle]

Ok, I’ll post one out of the 1000 issues this game has and expect to get it reviewed 2 years later

[hard sequoia]

bethesda could be another example with skyrim, but thats got a bit of a spotted history, not as clean cut.

[vocal shard]

but yeah belive whatever you want to believe tupper.

[digital cloud]

if you guys r gunna take mods away you should at least add some QOL features that mods provided to the game, maybe mark some of them as planned on the canny to show the community you guys are working to improve the game and not just taking away QOL features :)

[sharp saddle]

[odd edge]

@covert chasm does this sound that unreasonable?

[raw ivy]

this

[uneven escarp]

Is there any possibly of a dialog between the powers that be and the community on the direction of modding in their game?

[warped thorn]

Working as intended. You new people are just too used to things happening fast for other games.

[supple kestrel]

From a personal perspective, there will always be another QoL thing that everyone wants. I'd like to believe we're not deaf, and that the QoL stuff people want changes over time, and modders happen to be faster than us because we're a whole team and they're one person. And not only that, they're one person with a limited view of their code's impact, generally speaking.

[rancid trellis]

VK5, I'm surprised that you're a nitro booster considering what you've said so far.

[coarse blaze]

Tupper can I join you in being a punching bag for the team

[swift robin]

I read that advertising is against the rules but talking about it is not, but like technically talking about it counts as advertising... Thats awfully grey of a spectrum

[covert chasm]

Again, not an engineer and not the final word, but I'm going to go ahead and assert that having a "vetted modding system" isn't going to happen.

Some of the other suggestions are interesting, again, as discussion points, but not as "this is what's going to happen".

[vocal shard]

Seriously not a bad idea. Sale mods as a paid addon if you have a VRC+ account....that's a lot of extra money right there @covert chasm

[shrewd wigeon]

sup

[vocal shard]

Mods should just take into account that their whole userbase agrees VRC is poorly optimized and in need of QOL and there's people willing to and with the know-how fix it. Sticking to your guns in this situation maybe isn't the best.

[uneven escarp]

Why can't it happen?

[odd edge]

modders work with each other all the time. we make sure none of our mods break others. in fact there are over 97(?) mods that work perfectfully fine with eachother that arent malicious at all

[boreal ore]

So the only reason mods are not allowed is becasue the VRC team cant have the final say on them?

[wind zealot]

hard to control and investors wouldn't be happy

[sleek stratus]

VRC cant just let people willy nilly add code to it, thats how we get "Vibe goes brrr" dev addingcode

[minor parrot]

Community mod support vetted and approved by the dev team? I mean, why not

[shrewd wigeon]

damn i got ignored imma go cry in my corner

[vale pecan]

I would expect a productive discussion on the direction of the game, and on where development efforts should be focused. The mod devs have a much closer relation ship with the community at large, and as community members themselves, they would be able to give a much more in-depth and enlightening view on how players perceive the game. Just because you aren't able to implement the fixes or ideas they choose to implement themselves, you can still take advice on places to focus your efforts. But banning the creators is not the way to go about it, and only alienates the community members who support them.

[rancid trellis]

Hello there

[odd edge]

i can name numerous exploits that need to be fixed but arent being worked on

1. because reporters of these are getting banned
2. because they happen too slow

[hard sequoia]

the vrc modding discord already makes an effort to curate and play by the rules. they banned users who made things like force-clone mods, and refused to host their mods. it sounds like you already have a community with vrc's interests in mind. reaching out to them to work alongside them could prove beneficial.

[odd edge]

^^^^

[night iris]

^^^

[boreal ore]

^^^

[regal furnace]

wouldnt it be technically possible to hire a guy or 2 who just work on reviewing mods and whitelisting them?

[worthy oracle]

^^^

[vale pecan]

^^^

[vocal shard]

Or maybe create an official way to support mods without needing to implement it everywhere, like make worlds with mods being OK and others not.

[supple kestrel]

I'm aware of how modding works, having modded KSP myself, but this isn't KSP and doesn't just affect the local machine.

[odd edge]

many of our mod authors are genuine developers too that work for companies

[glossy thunder]

^^^^^^

[sharp saddle]

What, uh... what always-on game allows mods to begin with?

[swift robin]

the vrc modding discord already makes an effort to curate and play by the rules. they banned users who made things like force-clone mods, and refused to host their mods. it sounds like you already have a community with vrc's interests in mind. reaching out to them to work alongside them could prove beneficial.
@hard sequoia hands down this deserves a medal

[tranquil bronze]

Seeing as I am losing steam trying to stay up to date in this conversation, my point stands, employ, not divide, and listen to your community. When you attack your user base it just leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouth.

[odd edge]

most mods only affect the local machine thats the thing.

[vale pecan]

The most popular mod already does this. Any worlds with the Game tag didn't allow the flying/noclip/esp, etc.

[coarse blaze]

WoW, kinda?

[warped thorn]

It's always moved at the speed of slow. And so I just look at this discussion going on and shrug. Because nothing's gonna change with how you're going about it.

[shrewd wigeon]

hello

[minor parrot]

Upvote this to the stratosphere lol

[supple kestrel]

Thor Squint Do they though?

[worthy oracle]

I’m disappointed

[sharp saddle]

That's mostly UI-related, doesn't break into the game mechanics.

[rancid trellis]

How you doing underneath this WWIII battlefield?

[sharp rose]

Not sure WoW addons are really "mods" in the way we're discussing here. Not exactly, anyway. Kinda...?

[uncut gorge]

I would like to see the quality of life improvements from mods actually get added officially. For example, the IK mod that fixes a lot of the weirdness AND adds support for additional trackers, or the mod that adds support for eye tracking...Things that aren't good ROI for the dev team to implement, but users are more than happy to work on for free.

[desert frigate]

ya actually...

[tranquil bronze]

why?

[sleek stratus]

Cough **steam workshop ** cough

[uneven escarp]

Yes pleas, let trusted members of the community curate and manage mods, create a sanctioned community of mods that don't hurt others

[worthy oracle]

I mean in them lol

[shrewd wigeon]

you know, just watching youtube as a war goes on

[boreal ore]

How does a mod Change the Server/other Clients?

[tranquil bronze]

OH lol

[coarse blaze]

People here kept saying how they want mods to change their UI, so I’d assume similar concept

[odd edge]

yes! a fix that came out recently fixed the under 20fps not being able to click on people thing. it only affects the local machine and has no effect on the network. How do i know? because ive looked at the code

[vocal shard]

TF2, CSGO, Minecraft, WoW w modded servers, GTA Online

[rancid trellis]

That's how do it be though.

[sharp rose]

So you know - we are listening, not ignoring. But...responses and chat speed and ugh XD

[shrewd wigeon]

yea

[coarse blaze]

I know FFXIV has mods “banned” (you can’t get banned unless you admit to it lol)

[warped thorn]

(shrug) You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it float on it's back. Back to Blender I go. Gotta make those cat ears nice.

[devout berry]

How long is this all happening? I looked here yesterday, and just thought "OMG!"...

[odd edge]

its a simple fix that redirects the output of one property to another as one property just seems to not work under 20fps

[odd edge]

bout 25 hours now?

[sharp saddle]

Yeah, those generally don't count since they're hosted locally for the most part. GTA Online, eh.

[worthy oracle]

Modding community keeps plenty games alive. I wouldn’t say it’s any different for VRChat. But instead of cooperating, there is repression.

[vocal shard]

sure

[rancid trellis]

Apparently, it's been going on for 24, maybe 25 hours now.

[devout berry]

OOF!

[desert frigate]

press x to doubt

[sharp rose]

I'm only ignoring you specifically, 51 😛 (not really pls dont report me to tupper)

[tranquil bronze]

look at any bethesda game circa fallout 3 and forward

[coarse blaze]

WoW is the only real example I can give of an always-on game that you can PARTIALLY mod

[odd edge]

modders were intially banned 27ish hours ago? then the initial uproar started 3ish hours after

[raw ivy]

This is the problem. There needs to be a way for the users to have a better and more tailored play experience. So many people use mods because there is a lacking in the vanilla VRC.

[covert chasm]

I'm not comfortable with your assertion that we're unaware of our community at large. A good number-- maybe the majority?-- of VRChat team members (myself included) were hired out of the community . I'm also not confortable with the assertion that those people represent anything other than a small slice of the community, pretty hyper-focused on a specific (and probably super-technical) part. You're ostracizing 99% of the VRChat community with that statement.

We've got a very good handle on development efforts and direction. We don't require assistance with that. To be quite honest and blunt, I'd rather trust our designer with 30+ years of experience lol

Improvements or fixes, now-- okay, yeah, that's workable, there's stuff we can do. The meme here would be to post a link to the Canny. But you don't think it works (despite me digging through it and keeping up with it basically daily ). So... hm. This is where I stand. Suggestions?

[coarse blaze]

You can gain advantage over other players with them so I’d count addons as mods

[wind zealot]

remove chat cooldown in #randomplz

[swift robin]

Look guys, you're struggling to give people EVERYTHING they want, so at least give them the chance to customize there experience? If we please the innocents we can then more easily target the bad guys, and if you want money for features at least let us pay for it instead of gate keeping it

[vale pecan]

Yes, actually. The only mod I know of which pushes that limit is things like EMM with noclip, or things like custom IK scripts. However, these don't directly affect other users, and things like flight and noclip are technically just possible through playspace moving. The majority of mods do things such as allow config file changes ingame. Allow you to customize your menu. Or sort favorites. Or use a portable mirror. The mods your team targeted have little to no effect on external users.

[uneven escarp]

It took months to get a comment from a Dev on my world master chair bug post 😛

[sharp rose]

gotta talk to server chatmods about that one, mang

[coarse blaze]

Hire me for punching bag (suggestion #1)

[odd edge]

a bounty system! if you guys have an issue youre looking into just let modders handle it!

[vocal shard]

oh yeah why is there a cooldown in random

[ripe kelp]

so yeah, @covert chasm its nearly been 12 hours... should i send more tickets to be unbanned for something that i have proof i didnt do?

[covert chasm]

"Getting a comment" and "being read" is very different. Your post got seen a lot earlier than that post was made.

[covert chasm]

That's my job.

[vocal shard]

I don't see how selling mods as add-ons isn't a reasonable compromise if you have a VRC+ account.

[covert chasm]

A bounty system to fix what code? The source? You don't have that.

[wind zealot]

tell us how to casually approach chat mods plz

[uneven escarp]

Please tag stuff as 'Seen' or something so people know the canny is looked at

[rancid trellis]

Ah yes, one person with 30 years of experience can solve everything..

[vocal shard]

Maybe VRC should just let people host servers locally and only allow mods on those?

[odd edge]

well we can assume things etc etc, we can make instructions on how to fix certain things

[sharp rose]

uh...idk. I usually just pester jaime until he ghosts me 😭

[covert chasm]

I'd love to IF THEY GAVE ME CUSTOM STATUSES

[coarse blaze]

Yeah but I’d lowkey wanna join you cause you seem like you’re having fun lol

[vale pecan]

People don't believe canny works because you and the team don't show that you do look at it. At the very least, post a reply on things. After all, it took you 4 months to implement a fix for a but which made remote users unable to see 2 thumbs up unless you were on index, and this heavily affected the Sign Language community.

[worthy oracle]

It’s sad for a dev team to have a need of this

[night iris]

this.

I put stuff on the canny and it doesn't get any form of positive feedback for weeks/months

[hard sequoia]

most importantly are mods like advanced safety, that can help reduce risk of photosensitive seizures by blocking certain types of avatar effect that normal safety cannot do without hiding the entire avatar.

[coarse blaze]

You could be the meatbag and I’d be the speed punching bag

[uncut gorge]

AJK they do reply on things, I've had conversations with devs on there more than once

[odd edge]

i dont give a shit if its sad.
if a dev team interacts with thier community like this and also fixes bugs idc
it makes the game much better overall imo

[rancid trellis]

^

[covert chasm]

That's just one of the designers, honestly I'm not giving the rest of our team enough credit. We've got kinda silly amounts of industry experience on board. I felt a little out of place at first-- I came from a data analytics and physics background before VRChat.

[vale pecan]

But not as much as they should. And giving something a "seen" tag like previously sugested would be a perfect solution.

[worthy oracle]

I’m all for cooperation as much as the next guy, but I doubt it’s gonna happen xd

[fierce surge]

bap bap bap

[covert chasm]

Do you want me to post "I read this." on every post I read?

Seriously?

(I'm not going to do that.)

[fierce surge]

Yes read all

[night iris]

Someone should

[worthy oracle]

Yes

[vocal shard]

yes

[odd edge]

maybe react? there s voting system :3

[fierce surge]

<3

[tulip forge]

I read this

[jovial kestrel]

I read this

[vale pecan]

No. But at LEAST react. There is a voting system, after all.

[coarse blaze]

(Make a macro that auto replies at a random interval between 3min and 1hour)

[uneven escarp]

Please do, "This issue has been seen added to the development board"

[ancient folio]

I read this

[sharp saddle]

"This post has been officially seen by the great Tupper, happy now?"

[night iris]

we want to know if our cries for help have even been noticed, come on...

[maiden ridge]

I read all of this and frowned

[sharp rose]

but u ignored my DM where I spammed you with 38 dank memes 😭

[rancid trellis]

Hmm.

[covert chasm]

wait, hold on

i got it

[night iris]

think of it this way: If we know we've been heard, we'll shut up

[covert chasm]

I read this.

[wind zealot]

@jovial kestrel can you remove cooldown in #general-media plz?

[covert chasm]

I read this.

[ripe kelp]

i have read most of it and my head hurts

[covert chasm]

I read this.

[tulip forge]

New phone who dis