vrchat-general-2

[rough wadi]

You might need to get that checked out. 😂

[subtle kernel]

I hear this is the place

[sharp saddle]

👀

[subtle kernel]

or is it space that is the place

[lusty frost]

hi

[sharp saddle]

Hi there.

[lusty frost]

wanna join my kahoot?

[sharp saddle]

No?

[lusty frost]

im bored

im leaving this server

bye

[subtle kernel]

he wasnt here very long

[vocal shard]

pretty fast x

[subtle kernel]

zoom zoom

[languid beacon]

New nametags soon? 👀

[real marlin]

maybe, hopefully

[vocal shard]

Vrc+ soon? Tos was changed

[real marlin]

announcement says "in preparation for the upcoming vrchat + launch"

so hopefully

[hallow thistle]

what in the ToS changed=?

[sharp saddle]

Mostly stuff about subscriptions.

[vocal shard]

Terms of service

Aka you saying you agree too the rules

The payment process and sdk stuff was changed

I did not read the sdk stuff yet tho I will before I go to bed

[north grove]

i love that the tou has font errors in vrc

sums up vrchat

[next dirge]

What is wrong with me. I just spent $120 on extension cables. VRC has me in a trap.

[dull birch]

Is the website not letting anyone else sign in?

Everytime i try to log in it says code not valid even though they are correct

[sharp saddle]

2FA code?

[dull birch]

Using it

And it says not valid same with backup ones

[ionic fern]

Go to the support! Right now.

[civic saddle]

ooh neat a tos update

[ionic fern]

Yeah, its about the vrc+

[vocal shard]

i advise yall to please go actually read and comprehend the new TOS
It's uh, interesting

not all just about vrc+

[south oak]

Anything in particular that pops to eye? I just glanced at it but it's easy to get lost in the legal jargon.
I was looking to see what changes had been made.

[vocal shard]

you can access the older version(s) through the ia's wayback machine

but its very hard to actually make sense of looking at both versions at the same since some of the sections have just been reworked without changing any or much of the actual content

would be really nice if vrchat would, like paypal always does, include a summary of what has changed since the last version

[vocal shard]

1c, "Information Disclosed While Using the Platform" seems an important one, it goes into how in-instance conversations and user to user interactions are "collected and used to the full extent of the law"
maybe just me but i've had some conversations in vrc i don't want to share to the world or let someone have the right to do so

limited license to an extent is worth looking at aswell, but that one is more of an obligation for any cloud based platform

unclear

[fluid osprey]

why do E-boys get the ladies in vrc

[fading epoch]

lmao this platform is a shit show

[vocal shard]

are they collecting all convos, including in private worlds or just public ones

[mental wadi]

lmaooo

[fluid osprey]

why cant we all simp over master chief instead

[vocal shard]

because if it's also private ones then it's not as private anymore

[mystic yacht]

👍

[vocal shard]

i believe it's private ones too

they should probably mention that part in more places than just the tos

probably because of legal stuff

which make sense tbh but they should make that part more clear and visible

[crude iron]

their spyin on my d!(k

[vocal shard]

and i believe it's not for actually banning people but probably more for legality reasons like the anti terrorism act specifies

for pedos too and stuff like that

pretty sure they don't care about your e*p in private

well technically anything legal, whenever law enforcement asks them for a recording of a user is my guess

user data is still used in one way or another

[mystic yacht]

Until an australian consumer casually refunds the game and gets banned and sues

[vocal shard]

mostly for ads

[mystic yacht]

for there subscription

[vocal shard]

yeah but I can flirt with anime girls so it's fine

[fading epoch]

woah dude i didnt know they had an emoji for the devs lmao

🤡

[copper niche]

that new tos is a massive yikes, good luck to all the fanboys, this ship sank a very long time ago and now it caught fire

[sharp saddle]

How so?

[fading epoch]

the dishonesty and poor ownership of this platform is a joke

im excited to see the boycott vrc experiences lol

[vocal shard]

not dishonest if they say everything they do in the tos

or are you talking about something else

[fading epoch]

talking about some other general stuff but tos is lookin yucky

[winged jay]

Bruh, if you don’t like the game, go

[fading epoch]

i did lol

[vocal shard]

making your players go away is not a solution

[copper niche]

haha assuming people haven't already

[winged jay]

[orchid hull]

History might not repeat, but damn it sure does rhyme and this TOS has a certain echo to it that is concerning.

[vocal shard]

stop suggesting that to people, it's dumb and doesn't bring anything good having that mentality

[copper niche]

no no, it's fine, please leave vrchat. It's garbage and poorly maintained

[crude iron]

^^^

[mystic yacht]

^

[hazy agate]

^

[fading epoch]

^

[empty marsh]

^

[copper niche]

do you need a reminder how many years it took to get a friend list that doens't update every 3 blue moons?

[orchid hull]

Also, if one thought that VRC was truely private BEFORE this TOS update, bruh that's naive.

[empty marsh]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[vocal shard]

It's always the same anyway
big update drop > people aren't happy > they say "dead game, let's leave" > vrchat player base still continue to grow
It's difficult to take any of this seriously anymore

[sharp saddle]

^^^^

[fading epoch]

vrcs regular playerbase is the very toxicity the game is lol

[copper niche]

Basic maths says more people are getting VR overall, of course vrchat's numbers are increasing. HOwever, so are others.

[fading epoch]

they feel at home

[vocal shard]

I don't

[copper niche]

then leave omegalul

[orchid hull]

not diversifying one's platforms

[vocal shard]

been playing since early 2017
in 2020 i played vrchat maybe 6-7 times

[orchid hull]

egg meet basket

[vocal shard]

and the main reason I don't make a jump for another game like vrc is because all my friends are still in vrc

[empty marsh]

chilloutvr is better

[fading epoch]

cvr gang

[orchid hull]

oh look another echo

[vocal shard]

and since my friends are like the only reason I play this game, I have no reason to move to something else

[empty marsh]

#cvrgang

[sharp saddle]

Christ.

[crude iron]

i like turtles

[vocal shard]

chillout? yeah theres some worlds you can do that in vrc

and try not to mention the "competition too much"
they have a tendency to kick for that
or do, you do you

just use the search function

[copper niche]

See, I'd have the same mindset. However, VRchat's devs refused to take my crashing issues seriously, was called a liar and I had to abandon my whole friends list and the ASL community.

So.

[vocal shard]

I don't really have that much problems with vrc

[copper niche]

I crashed every 5 minutes

[vocal shard]

I stopped making avatars since I lost interest
having a simple model to just talk is more than enough for me currently

[copper niche]

the literal only game to do that

[vocal shard]

I would like to say you don't have to do anything. If you cant accept the rules that's on you fam. But the whole "I had to abandon my whole friends list" Thats on you

[copper niche]

are you actually stupid

llegit

[vocal shard]

Don't be rude :(

[crude iron]

i wnt on vrc one it was like a wax museum

[copper niche]

which part of an unplayable game is hard to understand

[empty marsh]

its funny how you say its on them when they clearly couldn't do anything about it

[vocal shard]

I guess you contacted the support ?

[fading epoch]

imagine having to optimize a vr game like its on an iphone 4 btw

[copper niche]

With more than 25 crash logs yes

[fading epoch]

cause thats vrcs optimization if you even want 60fps

[crude iron]

contact suppppport = ban

[copper niche]

Also this https://twitter.com/Khosumi_/status/1323830992159866887

never got a single word or email

[lucid rock]

🧂

[copper niche]

but yeah me not logging on vrc? My whole fault

[vocal shard]

Nah im just tired of people whining about this is better, this is worse. Updates are terrible etc,etc,etc when in all reality

none of us can manage that really, we know disadvantages of platforms, management of platforms.

what im trying to say is look, if you like it thats cool but coming in here with this hate kinda makes me not want to go to that platform because thats not very chill yo

[sharp saddle]

Expecting a response on Twitter is like expecting the CEO of a company to personally invite you to his house.

[empty marsh]

how is that the same

[copper niche]

No, I'm expecting a response to my emails thouhg.

[vocal shard]

I'm not trying to defend the devs, because they can clearly optimize some stuff but most issues with fps is because of other players and very poorly optimized avatars
you can't fully blame them on this

[copper niche]

but good red herring, keep trying to dismiss other people's issues

clearly this is working great for vrchat

[empty marsh]

you guys are sour as fuck

[fading epoch]

actually untrue, you can atlas and optimize all you want and still hit 30fps alone

[muted tundra]

I bet vrc+ will have portal look like portal effect from path of exile game.

[copper niche]

They are pretty good at plagiarising

[fading epoch]

im not i experienced in this, i do game dev and model creation professionally

[crude iron]

ima sick to fallen doll, better 🐱

[copper niche]

Vrchat's current development plan: Let chilloutvr come up with it, steal it and make it worse

[crude iron]

^^^^

[vocal shard]

well, it's been working great for them so far so why stop...

[empty marsh]

thats what they have always done

[vocal shard]

Ok? So who asked?

[copper niche]

lol

the blindness

[vocal shard]

If its so great then why are you wasting your time here

[fading epoch]

it funni

[copper niche]

because I'm smoking weed before logging on cvr

[crude iron]

^

[fading epoch]

😎

[white latch]

ok go to cvr. more bandwidth for us

[crude iron]

bandwith lol

[copper niche]

lol what do you mean more bandwidth, vrchat uses peer to peer connections OMEGALUL

[vocal shard]

I mean a mirror is a mirror

bandwidth is no more an issue with vrc+ 😎

[empty marsh]

there not enough bandwidth for just one person in vrc

[lucid rock]

but isn't chillout basically vrchat but worse?
That's the impression I got from playing it

[white latch]

:\

[random helm]

hEWO!

[vocal shard]

it's fairly rough I guess

[random helm]

me is new here

[vocal shard]

hello new guy

[copper niche]

it's in early alpha, yes, and already stepping ahead of vrc

[crude iron]

run

[random helm]

@vocal shard hello

[vocal shard]

how ?

[crude iron]

leave before u get jaded

[copper niche]

good time for you to join, feel free to lookup chilloutvr very soon

[white latch]

Like, go to cvr, we ain't stopping you.

[vocal shard]

what features do they have that makes them way better than vrc

[fading epoch]

^

[crude iron]

smooth brin = dumb = happy

[copper niche]

honestly? I should probably just link the devblog lmao

[fading epoch]

cvr seems to actually respond to feedback for starters lmao

[vocal shard]

you people really representing the image of cvr I have to say thanks for your input

So how is the Drama fight everyone

[empty marsh]

optimization

[fading epoch]

its in alpha and is alreadh taking steps ahead of vrc

[copper niche]

but knowing vrc, they'll download the devblog and copy it

[crude iron]

i can see ppl move

[lucid rock]

I don't really see it going anywhere tbh. They only get $3000 a month from patreon. I don't really see how cvr's devs are being paid off that?

[sharp saddle]

I love how things were finally going back to normal... until the news about the TOS changes and everyone goes back to their batshit crazy conspiracies.

As if anyone actually read the TOS to begin with.

[crude iron]

......i cant read thats mean

[vocal shard]

Discord has literally the same ToS.

always been like that artemus
since 2017, never changed and never will

[sharp saddle]

I'm aware.

[copper niche]

do you realise cvr has been in dev for just about a year, against vrc's 4 or 5?

[crude iron]

my mom is getttting mad having 2 typethis

[vocal shard]

the thing with cvr is that it isnt unique

Ya know I see people freak put about this but hope yall all know discord some the same with all your dms

[vocal shard]

You cant type for yourself?

[copper niche]

Game modes will be unique to cvr

[crude iron]

this is 0tatos mom b nice

[vocal shard]

we had people like you, praising and singing for NeosVR, the new replacement of vrchat > nothing happened and it's basically dead

[copper niche]

not game worlds, game modes

[vocal shard]

Like keeping info on people is nothing new

[empty marsh]

Its not trying to be unique, its trying to be better

[vocal shard]

then we had lavender, same shit : new and better vrc > nothing happened and basically dead

[white latch]

Optimization isn't going to be a pro when people start making highly unoptimized worlds and avatars too

[vocal shard]

"really" dead

[empty marsh]

but have you played cvr

[vocal shard]

and now, we have CVR and exactly same story

[copper niche]

The same avatars run quite a bit faster actually

[vocal shard]

How? Care to explain?

[crude iron]

oj god don start with khosumi

ud get wreaked

[copper niche]

More fps? Idk how to explain it more than that

[waxen citrus]

It does have potential and some nice features but seeing it's average online users I'm not sure it's really gonna take over yet.

[white latch]

Same avatars as in the 20+ material 70k 100 dynamic bone transforms?

[vocal shard]

wrecked for asking for some actual facts instead of opinions

it's honestly probably never going to take over

[copper niche]

Yes

[mystic yacht]

ported avatar i bought from vrc runs very bad in vrc. i get 90fps compared to the 20 vrc gives

[vocal shard]

all i am going to say the people that play vrc just have your fun and for the people that play cvr Stop Fighting i am not on any sides this really annoying the devs Stop caring about the game and community no one gave fee back So that is my say on what i am seeing So good day

[white latch]

I doubt

[vocal shard]

who would have guessed, shame on me for not insisting to everyone that its just perfect, "it just works"

[copper niche]

Try it

[vocal shard]

being kinda the first game that exploded for that, VRC managed to get a big community in it
most people won't ever switch until ALL of their friends switch too

[copper niche]

I barely get 30 fps at void club alone. I get 90 with people in it in cvr

[sharp saddle]

Void Club.

[white latch]

void club

[copper niche]

And?

[white latch]

There's your problem

[vocal shard]

void club

[sharp saddle]

^

[vocal shard]

I get 90 fps in void club in VRC
vr or desktop

can't really judge on that

[copper niche]

Imagine attributing a terrible game engine performance to just the map

[fading epoch]

^

[lucid rock]

yes I do realize this. So basically cvr doesn't pay their devs well it seems? This is ignoring that the cvr patreon says it costs about $5000 a month for servers. Cvr is very likely to die within a year or two if they don't raise more. I don't really see investors willing to invest in a game that less than 40 players at max.

[waxen citrus]

You're gonna always have high frames when there's not much people around, wich is CVR in it's total.

[fading epoch]

somehowgets90fpsincvr

[empty marsh]

cvr is a passion project, its not out to make bank

[vocal shard]

Powered by donations, sounds familiar.

[copper niche]

It'll make bank by being good

[vocal shard]

that's on the creator of the world tho not the dev team

[lucid rock]

thonk

[sharp saddle]

Please stop with this argument.

They made nothing.

[fading epoch]

lol shutup nitro simp

[copper niche]

Vrchat literally stole code from devs they fired because they refused to pay them

[white latch]

evidence please

[sharp saddle]

That's not the point. Investment = not free money.

[vocal shard]

source ?

[sharp saddle]

That's money they had to generate to pay them back.

[vocal shard]

I wonder whats terrible about cvr. Absolutely nothing im guessing?

[crude iron]

i like free money

[copper niche]

Anyways I'm fairly stoned now, I'll go on CVR and enjoy flying and dynamic bones interaction without mods. Toodles

[crude iron]

sonic 4?

[lucid rock]

k

[vocal shard]

enjoy

lol we have learned absolutely nothing today

[empty marsh]

do we have to spell it out for you? we are not saying it perfect, we are saying its actually trying. Its in open alpha

[white latch]

Agreed

[sharp saddle]

They pretty much already did.

[crude iron]

i learned how to type sonic 4 is the best ggagme ever

^^

vrc = EA

[vocal shard]

stateless shilling without no facts to back up your points, your opinions makes for a interesting waste of time but a pointless one at that.

[white latch]

They're doing the subscriptions through steam, steam takes 30% of the cut

[vocal shard]

except it's not the same
you dont have to pay that 10 bucks a month to play

[waxen citrus]

sigh This chat is a disaster like always

[crude iron]

Its in the bank

[vocal shard]

Depends on the challenge :3

[sharp saddle]

Whenever it's money-related, it always is.

[copper niche]

I already shown you receipts that I signaled my crashing issues and was ignored. You just refuse to see the evidence. ciao~

[vocal shard]

whenever there is an update*

hey look a block button

[rough wadi]

Why are people getting so bent out of shape over VRC+? It’s not a requirement, if you don’t like it, don’t spend money on it. It’s that simple.

[vocal shard]

yo fam everyones got issues just sayin yo

[sharp saddle]

Jamie! Save us from this chaos.

[lucid rock]

[crude iron]

im rich vrc get none of my bukubucks

[vocal shard]

Because people are trying to find arguments against vrchat so they are grasping at every little things

Hi Jamie lol welcome to the party.

vrc+ is a way different issue than what we were talking about

I just got home..... IDK what's going on

[sharp saddle]

#announcements is what happened.

[vocal shard]

nothing special
people being unhappy about TOS change and shilling for another game, this time it's CVR

[white latch]

people who keep saying cvr is better, the usual

[vocal shard]

Ah you know the normal? Welcome home.

[sharp saddle]

TOS got changed, everyone lost their minds.

[solid bridge]

I knew this would happen lol

[fading epoch]

cvr > vrc

[vocal shard]

all i am going to say i dont care just really annoying

[fading epoch]

hi mods

[vocal shard]

not takeing sides

[crude iron]

i askedmsupport where my bain

[vocal shard]

There's nothing wrong with CVR. I had a beta key. It's pretty neat

[crude iron]

they banned me

[vocal shard]

I don't even know what changed that much
Except that they may record all convos
which isnt a surprise at this point tbh

I don't see why there needs to be fighting between the communities tho

[white latch]

Me either

[solid bridge]

As much as I like CVR, it's not to the same level as VRChat yet, being honest

[fading epoch]

this is more a discussion on what vrc is doing wrong

[vocal shard]

because CVR is better than VRC [insert all reasons here]

[pliant epoch]

Lol I come back from eating dinner and it appears that a borderline civil war has erupted in this chat.

[vocal shard]

the usual

[solid bridge]

Both CVR and VRC have their own cool things

[vocal shard]

[crude iron]

cvr ban trolls vrc helps then

[rough wadi]

Call me ignorant, but I don’t even know what CVR is...

[sharp saddle]

Alternative to VRC.

[vocal shard]

Its a new replacement

You're allowed to play multiple games

[copper niche]

@crude iron dm

[fading epoch]

i like this mod

theyre chill

[rough wadi]

Ah.

[solid bridge]

I've been wanting to get into playing both. Sadly, I don't have much time nowadays...

[sharp saddle]

I tried it. A lot more clunkier than VRC but that might be due to its alpha stage, not to mention limited population.

[vocal shard]

Yeah people are allowed to have opinions just saying but what im trying to get at is nothing is best, theres always a upside and a downside to platforms just enjoy what options you got

[languid beacon]

I checked it out and the game page said "Adults-Only" and I immediately left the steam page

[vocal shard]

No.
You have to make a choice, it's one or the other

[solid bridge]

Both platforms have their ups and downs

[vocal shard]

CVR remindes me of vrchat in its earlier days. Smaller and chill. The one issue I see is they don't have the resources to handle a sudden boom in players. So.... We'll see how it goes. I hope they do continue smoothly. But in all seriousness, it's still rude to shill for one game in another discord. Imagine if it was reversed

[vocal shard]

All platforms. Yeah

[waxen citrus]

That's what I'm gonna be doing tbh. CVR has it's cool stuff but I have some friends that I mostly only see on VRC

[vocal shard]

We can just all play and have fun with what we like

[vocal shard]

vrchat didnt have it either
there was server issue for like 1-2 months after the boom

[sharp saddle]

I need that emote.

[lucid rock]

[vocal shard]

ok for the mod that is in here in chat this is what i have to say i played vrc in 2018 and i had fun but all the Drama happen i am not blaming it on you or the team just when you let the hackers and clinet users Do stuff to people it really show how much you guys need to fix your stuff and stop it from happening

[waxen citrus]

Gotta have a little bit of everything...

[copper niche]

I didn't have a choice, the game is literally unplayable due to consistent crashing that makes the game unplayable as I spent more time reconnecting than running the game entirely

[vocal shard]

you are literlaly the only one with that issue

[daring spoke]

is anyone else not able to see anyone in their friend list?

[vocal shard]

I've never heard of anyone else with that problem, like ever

[copper niche]

You haven't heard of it, therefore it doesn't exist. Amazing logic

[vocal shard]

Now now lets be real them crashes are kinda bad

did I say that ?

well anyways have a good day everyone

[copper niche]

SvelᵘʷᵘToday at 11:54 PM
you are literlaly the only one with that issue

[vocal shard]

yeah ? did I say it doesnt exist ?

[copper niche]

that's some mental gymnastics

holy shit dude

[crude iron]

i crash with i9+2080super

make my brain smooth

[white latch]

I'm sorry you had issues but I mean, the last time I also had a gamebreaking crash to the point I couldn't even play I sent in an email and got a fix a day later sent back to me so I genuinely can't relate.

[vocal shard]

no it's not, you are just trying to start shit as you did before
every time someone had crashing issues like that, they reinstall the game/clear and it's fixed

actually screw that, I'm not going to argue about it

[crude iron]

also so many groooomers n n word sayers

they mean

[vocal shard]

groomers and n word sayers is not exclusive to vrchat

[solid bridge]

That's why I don't go to Public instances anymore

[copper niche]

I have already gone to the point of reinstalling my OS and nuking my GPU drivers with DDU. No, reinstalling didn't help.

[vocal shard]

any game that will become big will have the same shit

[slow knot]

[solid bridge]

It's mostly on Publics where you see that shit

[crude iron]

not if no kids allllowrd

[copper niche]

How naive can you be

I am astounded

[crude iron]

18> no internet 4 u

[white latch]

[languid beacon]

Not visiting public worlds is fine if that's what you want, but it seems kind of silly to avoid 99% of friendly public users when you can just block the 1% who aren't.

[solid bridge]

Well, that is true

[vocal shard]

me who hasn't been crashed since 2018

Although I usually only play after midnight NA... So maybe that had an effect

[solid bridge]

It's mostly on places like The Great Pug where you see that stuff

[white latch]

Yeah I just block and report people like that

[vocal shard]

I got crashed maybe 4-5 times since they added the particle limiter thing

[sharp saddle]

No wonder. 👀

[languid beacon]

Past the crasher's bed time

[crude iron]

how come i have no need 2 block on rec room?

no meanies there

[languid beacon]

Play it more, you will

[vocal shard]

Sonic the Hedgehog 4 and VRChat are the exact same game. There's no physical proof that you could present to me that would prove this statement false. As you can see, women developed Sonic 4, women are bad at game design, therefore women are bad at video games. And finally, Men also developed the game, which also proves that everyone sucks at game design. Aka, tupper is the c.e.o of SEGA of america. that's why vrchat sucks.

[slow knot]

[crude iron]

^^^

sanic 4

[slow knot]

Now that was a Bullshit Bruh moment

[vocal shard]

it's crazy how all your words have a meaning behind them but you still didn't make any sense

9.2. Limited License Grant to VRChat. By posting, publishing, or otherwise developing User Content in the Platform, you grant VRChat a worldwide, non-exclusive, irrevocable, royalty-free, perpetual, fully paid right and license (with the right to sublicense) to host, store, transfer, display, perform, reproduce, modify for the purpose of formatting for display, and distribute your User Content, in whole or in part, in any media formats and through any media channels now known or hereafter developed. You agree that the license granted to VRChat under this Section 9.2 applies to any User Content you previously posted, published, or otherwise developed in the Platform. Was this in the original TOS?

[solid bridge]

It was

[vocal shard]

probably

That's normal

[pliant epoch]

It looks like this discord server is being raided by trolls attempting to cause mayhem and hysteria.

[sharp saddle]

Yep.

[vocal shard]

Nothing new really 🤣

[copper niche]

oh no, disagreement. trolls, i say.

[sharp saddle]

``7.2. Limited License Grant to VRChat.

By posting, publishing, or otherwise developing User Content in the Service, you grant VRChat a worldwide, non-exclusive, irrevocable, royalty-free, perpetual, fully paid right and license (with the right to sublicense) to host, store, transfer, display, perform, reproduce, modify for the purpose of formatting for display, and distribute your User Content, in whole or in part, in any media formats and through any media channels now known or hereafter developed. You agree that the license granted to VRChat under this Section 7.2 applies to any User Content you previously posted, published, or otherwise developed in the Service.``

[vocal shard]

Since content you upload is under your copyright. It's just basically giving vrchat permission to host your avatars/ content

[polar fable]

I hate to be this person but my discord of over 100 people want me to ask

But does anyone know if VRChat are going to put limits on free users as in lint how many avatars or worlds they can have on their account

I told them I doubt that since it would change the core experience of the game and like vrchat said it would remain to be free but they still want me to check

[vocal shard]

wayback machine on the TOS page dated 28th november
9.2. Limited License Grant to VRChat. By posting, publishing, or otherwise developing User Content in the Platform, you grant VRChat a worldwide, non-exclusive, irrevocable, royalty-free, perpetual, fully paid right and license (with the right to sublicense) to host, store, transfer, display, perform, reproduce, modify for the purpose of formatting for display, and distribute your User Content, in whole or in part, in any media formats and through any media channels now known or hereafter developed. You agree that the license granted to VRChat under this Section 9.2 applies to any User Content you previously posted, published, or otherwise developed in the Platform.

[rough wadi]

I vote we all just respect each other and their opinions despite if you disagree with them or not. No need to get heated and start bashing each other because you disagree or think differently.

[languid beacon]

Yep, unchanged. It would be pretty hard for other users to be able to see you if they didn't have permission to host, store, transfer, display, perform, reproduce or modify your content for the purpose of formatting for display and distributing your content, in whole, or in part to their media channels.

[sharp saddle]

AFAIK, no. Everything will stay the same.

[vocal shard]

No free users will not be limited

The core free game will continue the same, and keep adding to it

[slow knot]

[vocal shard]

for now

you never know what will happen

[polar fable]

Thanks I can now tell them to shut up about it

[languid beacon]

TLDR: "In order for other people to see your avatar, we need permission to send your content to other people's computers."

[slow knot]

makes sense

[copper niche]

hoolld on that is not what that means at all

[vocal shard]

@vocal shard This goes into copyright law, but essentially the wording for that paragraph doesn't limit VRChat on what it can be used for. It's an irrevocable license with rights to sublicense. If it was specific for vrchat to simply distribute and display it would be specific.

[languid beacon]

Yes it is lmao'

[vocal shard]

I was just wondering if it was originally there or not

[waxen citrus]

Yeah, I guess this is what happens when communities get big. But I agree.

[languid beacon]

Yes, it's unchanged

[vocal shard]

shh no let them explain what they think it means then

[vocal shard]

it was there originally, nothing new for that part

[languid beacon]

It's the basic "we need to distribute your content or you will be the only one who sees it"

[sharp saddle]

Yes, it's been there. Just pushed down into S. 9 instead. Same exact wording and all.

[vocal shard]

alright, thx.

discord pretty much has the same ToS btw.

[languid beacon]

It's super common.

[copper niche]

no wait i was reading a different word there, thats on me

[slow knot]

https://tenor.com/view/freddy-fnaf-creepy-gif-11665192

[rough wadi]

That’s understandable. I just personally don’t like confrontation and negativity. If you don’t like something, you don’t have to be disrespectful and confrontational, you know?

[sharp saddle]

Why are we arguing about the TOS now when all that's been changed is the payment info?

No one cared up until now.

[slow knot]

like I said before, its a whole bruh moment

[vocal shard]

Didn't read it until now :^)

because people just now learned that there is a TOS

[waxen citrus]

I don't know, people didn't read it before I guess.

[rough wadi]

I guess people just want reasons to hate on something? I’m not too sure... it’s sad really.

[sharp saddle]

Yep.

[languid beacon]

People love drama, and love having things to complain about. So it gets made up even when there's nothing there :p

[slow knot]

human society tho

[solid bridge]

People should read the TOS more often. I have started to read the TOS of every new site that I register on.

[languid beacon]

The idea that this new ToS has gotta have something bad to point out is just too inticing

[waxen citrus]

It do be like that

[tender loom]

so, if I record a video in VRC, edit it and post it to youtube - that isn't streamed live - it's not a violation under section 11, even if said video is monetised on youtube?

because that's new since sept. afaik.

how is that not distribution of platform content?

and how does that fall under streaming?

[vocal shard]

Thats a valid statement.

[tender loom]

that's what I thought.

and that is new and substantial.

[sharp saddle]

Nothing in this Section 11 or in this TOU is intended to restrict users from streaming their use of the Platform through a third-party streaming platform, including Twitch and YouTube, provided that such use is in compliance with all other terms of this TOU, including the Brand Guidelines and in compliance with all applicable third-party terms relating to those third-party systems (such streaming, “Permitted Streaming”). This TOU does not prohibit you from monetizing such streaming through third-party streaming platforms’ authorized monetization systems.

[tender loom]

yeah, so what exactly is 'streaming' then.

[vocal shard]

Clearly was talking about people with content being stolen, it just got worded a bit weird it seems.

[tender loom]

yeah, weird. well, it needs clarification - because it looks like VRC is pulling a nintendo

[languid beacon]

Monetized streaming is allowed, so long as you are using the streaming service's built-in monitization features and not making your money in some other way.

[tender loom]

but that's not what I'm asking Adeon.

are, for example Coopertom's videos not permitted under the new ToS w/o an individual commercial license?

[white latch]

Most companies have a streaming policy specifically allowing people to post to youtube, twitch, mixer, etc. It's normal.

[languid beacon]

Why wouldn't they be?

[sharp saddle]

RIP Mixer.

[tender loom]

good question - because we need guidance as to what 'streaming' means and when it applies.

[languid beacon]

I was not aware that Coppertom streams.

[white latch]

oh man did they kill off mixer?

[tender loom]

exactly what I mean, they record and post edit video recorded in VRC. it's not streaming.

[sharp saddle]

Yep, MS killed it 'cause it wasn't making enough money.

[white latch]

damn

[languid beacon]

Correct, it's not streaming.

[left wharf]

Im having problem loading some 3.0 avatars, it straight up crashes my game whenever a 3.0 avatar is loaded, can anyone help me?

[ionic fern]

Well... the xbox pass either but yeah, they keep the system the same.

[languid beacon]

Streaming seems pretty well defined to me - it's a live broadcast

[tender loom]

so, is that banned by the new ToS without an individual commercial license - that we'd all have to negotiate individually with VRC?

if so, so long vrc youtubers

[sharp saddle]

I think you're overcomplicating the situation, my guy.

The TOS didn't get a major overhaul, they just added onto it.

Everything is the exact same it's always been.

[tender loom]

yeah, well, I just want some simplicity and clarification from VRC

[languid beacon]

Jae, which section of the ToS are you feeling applies to non-streamed video content?

[tender loom]

because what I'm being told and what the reading is, is not the same.

[crude iron]

i pased out from the dumb

[tender loom]

Section 11.

there's a carve out for streaming on purpose, so it's hard to read anything else as permitted.

[ionic fern]

Remember. They as "company" need to have a back up, you know.

[white latch]

Anyone know a good world for taking pictures/showcasing avatars

[languid beacon]

Unless, and solely to the extent that, such a restriction is impermissible under applicable law or applicable third party license
There are two alternatives to a written agreement from VRChat. @tender loom

[tender loom]

sigh

not exactly the same as saying 'it's fine' now is it?

and you'd have to go to binding arbitration if you wanted to argue that and they banned your account, for which you have no recourse anyway.

looking forward to further clarification from VRC, here's hoping this is all just a miscommunication

[vocal shard]

The exception applies to streaming, but does that mean actual video content as well, or only for live streaming? The exception is clearly only "streaming", but does not make exception to other forms of media either.

[tender loom]

Exactly.

[languid beacon]

So your fears would be allied if they clarified the exceptions apply to recordings as well as live streams?

[vocal shard]

Hello there

Usually specific terms like 'Streaming' would be in a definitions table.

[tender loom]

In that regard, and the usage and presentation of those recordings. Yes.

[languid beacon]

Practically speaking, there is no reason to allow one and not the other.

I can't think of any reason they would, but I understand wanting the clarification.

[tender loom]

(I can think of a reason - they'd want a cut of the revenue from all footage, and thus want an individual commercial license for all recordings)

[vocal shard]

The purpose of any sort of legal agreement is that there is the least amount of misunderstanding as possible. It's meant to be explicit.

Jae is also correct. playthroughs of other kinds of games are not generally within fair use, the games just allow people to do it anyway. Studios/Publishers can use youtubes content ID to monetize videos of their game that don't have fair use.

[tender loom]

The risk isn't just that you'd get a strike, it's that you'd also be banned (the new termination of ToU clause, just added)

So, that also needs clarification

[languid beacon]

For the uninitiated (me), what constitutes 'pulling a Nintendo'? 🙂

[sharp saddle]

Nintendo basically DMCA'd anyone who featured anything from Nintendo without their consent.

[languid beacon]

Sounds like an excellent strategy that worked out for them and is worth copying. 🤣

[sharp saddle]

In other words, if they ain't making money from it, you get it taken down.

[sharp saddle]

Where are you seeing this "termination"?

[vocal shard]

Probably section 13. If you violate any provision of this TOU, your permission from us to use the Platform will terminate automatically.

[tender loom]

No, that's unchanged

We also reserve the right to terminate this TOU, or modify or discontinue the Platform at any time (including by limiting or discontinuing certain features of the Platform), temporarily or permanently, without notice to you.

[languid beacon]

uh

That means "we can shut down VRChat whenever we want"

[tender loom]

'The right to terminate this TOU' was added to that since last

Which applies much more broadly

[sharp saddle]

That's... in every TOS.

Again, you're overcomplicating it.

[tender loom]

Funny how 'just boilerplate' is what everyone says about contract changes...

[languid beacon]

It's an indie game man they're not out to get ya

[vocal shard]

There's a number of things that are not a 'every TOS', but being able to terminate your own contract is a typical one.

[sharp saddle]

If you want clarification, send an email to [e-mail]

[tender loom]

I'd like public clarification, esp for section 11. And that's all I'll say about it

[sharp saddle]

Should've been here earlier, Tupper was active.

[languid beacon]

"We shall have the right to terminate this TOU" is just an alternate way of saying "We can change this TOU at a later time"

It's in every TOU in some way

Sorry, but yes, it's boilerplate

if it wasn't there before, someone in legal probably just had them fix it

[sleek stratus]

TOU clause 9.4 and 12.D just got 90% of void club population banned

[languid beacon]

I think that stuff was already there...

It was in the community guidelines already anyway

[vocal shard]

Section 11 as currently written can easily be taken as an arbitrary ability to remove anything that 'publicly display', the only exception is 'streaming' which is not defined and to its general definition means live streaming. If the section did not by its nature limit public displays the exception would not be necessary - but clearly it does, therefore it applies to all other platforms and media formats as well. There has to be a lot more information put into the document to have a sane limiting on public display.

[languid beacon]

I already violated the TOU by not reading it carefully before hitting accept, as instructed in Section 0.

[tender loom]

They're not incompetent, Adeon, all of these changes have a purpose.

[languid beacon]

Are you talking about the statement that they can terminate the TOU?

Because that's what my quote is about

[white latch]

That's always been there

[vocal shard]

Linux release when ree

[tender loom]

Probably when VR on Linux isn't... Eh.

[languid beacon]

Nope

[vocal shard]

depends on what you mean

[languid beacon]

Everything in that part of the TOS was already there. It didn't change.

[vocal shard]

@languid beacon Doesn't mean it's not true.

[languid beacon]

It was discussed ad nauseum last time there was a TOS update.

[vocal shard]

vr on linux is great just a support issue

when the openhmd project is finished you'll be able to run an oculus directly in steamvr without having to use the rift software

Meaning what? I assume you're talking about the paragraph I pointed out earlier. The text is pretty clear, but you're saying otherwise without much backup.

theres projects for virtual reality window managers

[languid beacon]

That part of the TOS didn't change.

[vocal shard]

If you want a real answer, ask a copyright lawyer.

[ionic fern]

I guess for publicy purpouse

[languid beacon]

TLDR is that when you upload content you are giving them permission to store it on their servers and send it to the other players, so that they can actually see it. If you did not give them this permission no one else would be able to view your content.

[vocal shard]

That is one part of it, but that's not the text of the paragraph

[languid beacon]

Fine, I'll do the direct quote.

[shell forge]

soo it only effects public avatars?

[languid beacon]

Here's the direct quote

You retain copyright and any other proprietary rights that you may hold in the User Content you post to the Platform.

[hearty wyvern]

anyone ever run into spacialized audio in vrchat just NOT working?

like, i hear everyone over everyone in every map and no world sounds are directional at all

[vocal shard]

yeah it's been broken for a while now

[languid beacon]

wha? no, i have directional sounds all the time

voices too

[hearty wyvern]

guess i'll just check my drivers or something

[languid beacon]

are you sure your headset just isn't in mono or something?

[grim quest]

Sorry to interupt but wat is VRChat plus

[vocal shard]

https://medium.com/vrchat/introducing-vrchat-plus-40642cff6c78

@languid beacon You owning the copyright to something is not the same as 'nobody else can use it' or that 'you have complete control over it'. As specified in 9.2 by uploading content you are granting VRChat a 'license' to use it many free ways beyond just 'displaying and transfering'. However 9.5 specifies how specifically deleting content terminates that license. However this does not apply to copies others may have, and it doesn't detail if that license is remove on account termination.

So, it's a bit of both. The paragraph is not a 'we only use it to transfer and display', so people appear to be correct about that. But if that content is private and explicitly deleted it removes that license if there's no other copies of that content.

Maybe they don't want disney suing them because someone released content with a vrchat mickey mouse

@shell forge It depends on what you're concerned about, and if you're concerned about vrchat having a license to your content you should consult a copyright lawyer.

[hearty wyvern]

I found the audio issue, it was just being on the wrong output device

[hot saddle]

Hi

[languid beacon]

However this does not apply to copies others may have, and it doesn't detail if that license is remove on account termination.
Correct, because someone else would have uploaded it. When that is the case, and you feel they uploaded your content illegimately, you still own full rights to it, so you must file a DMCA.

That has nothing to do with the agreement between you and VRC. That's another player infringing on your IP

And, since the other player apparently uploaded it without having the rights to the content, their agreement with VRC is void, VRC isn't claiming any rights to use your content.

@vocal shard

Alternatively, you could have uploaded your content more than once (for example, alternate avatar blueprints) when that is the case, deleting one blueprint does not remove their rights to distribute the one you didn't delete.

That is why that clause is there

[vocal shard]

Hi guys :)

[fair egret]

What's going on I'm afraid.

[sharp saddle]

Oh boy.

[fair egret]

I uh, I'm still confused but ok.

[vocal shard]

So much effort wasted into complaining about a free service

[sharp saddle]

Yep.

[languid beacon]

I try to look on the positive side, people get worked up about a free game because it means a lot to them. That's a good thing.

[vocal shard]

The entitlement is real. I wouldn't want to pay for hosting costs for all of those worlds just saying.

There's no such thing as 'free' unless there is a pile of money someone is giving out that they don't want a return on.

[languid beacon]

Were they not?

[vocal shard]

Sadly the server is getting too big that it breaks if they do a large ping

[fair egret]

What exactly changed in the TOS?

[vocal shard]

The changes were just updates regarding subscription and stuff

[fair egret]

Oh, so people are freaking out about the same stuff as last time?

[vocal shard]

Yeah.

[fair egret]

I see, no big deal then.

[arctic elm]

i wish it was gonna be $5, I'd def consider it more

[languid beacon]

Yeah, same usual freakout over distribution rights, when the text didn't change

[fair egret]

I have my own opinions on VRC+ but I'm not going to explode about it and start screaming into the void.

[vocal shard]

This.

Are people complaining about VRC being free? im confused

[sharp saddle]

VRC+ is a subscription service they introduced a few weeks ago.

[fair egret]

I think the concept is cool, and supporting the devs is awesome, but game needs more work first, specifically optimizations.

I have a beefy computer and the game still runs like dogshit

[vocal shard]

There was a lot more than the talk of 'redisribution rights' (which aren't just that).

[languid beacon]

I have my opinion about VRC+ and I am going to scream into the void. Let me have the new nametags already, going back to the ones on Live is painful

[arctic elm]

agree

[fair egret]

Like, I legit have no idea how so many people run the game well, what the hell is the secret?

[vocal shard]

Nah I made a point that a lot of complaints currently about VRC+ and ToS are directed to a platform that provides entertainment for us free of charge.

i mean what do you get for vrc+

i only got vrchat like 7 days ago and got the index 4 days ago

@vocal shard facebook is free too.

[lilac swan]

It's people throwing a tantrum because they can't grasp the concept of investors wanting a return on their investment (VRchat asking for money via vrc+)

[vocal shard]

That it is.

or fortnite. that's free.

[sharp saddle]

Right now, a user icon, 100 favorite avatar slots and a badge with more coming soon.

[languid beacon]

100 favorite slots instead of 25, and you can put a circular image of your choosing on your nametag.

[arctic elm]

[fair egret]

But like actually, how do so many people run the game so well with rigs worse than mine? I have friends who get much higher performance than mine with worse rigs, is there something I should turn off?

[vocal shard]

you guys are getting 25 fav slots?

I don't have any problem with those features tbh

i have 16 i think

Bruh

[arctic elm]

25 when vrc+ is live

[sharp saddle]

With the VRC+ update, everyone's getting 25.

[languid beacon]

Everyone is getting upgraded from 16 to 25, for free

[vocal shard]

oh dum dum sorry

[fair egret]

I personally think the trust boost is worth nothing, like, bro who cares.

[languid beacon]

then + gets 100

[vocal shard]

yeah most likely will be getting +

im a cosmetic whore

Trust boost isn't what people think it is. It's literally nothing. It's not custom name tags... Is just a user icon. Favorite slots... Is till think should be capped for everyone

[languid beacon]

Personally, I recommend learning how to upload avatars to your account, as it doesn't use a favorite slot, and there's no limit to how many you can have.

[fair egret]

Shhhh Ryan, we don't talk about those.

[vocal shard]

@vocal shard i mean, sure, but the game has to monetize itself somehow

VRChat costs money, that has to be made somewhere.

[fair egret]

But I do agree with Ryan's point, not only do mods give the same thing but better, but they also give MORE.

[languid beacon]

I'm sure they'll add new features to make it worth the monthly fee

[vocal shard]

the game has gotten a lot more popular since lockdown, theyre probably seeing all of the stats coming in increasing a shit ton, it makes sense for them to use this opportunity to monetize

thats what feedback is for

[arctic elm]

they better add that "more soon™" fast if they want my $10

[languid beacon]

I wonder, given a choice, would you prefer they make money from VRC+, or scrap the idea and just get more funding from Facebook?

[vocal shard]

Reality is VRChat is a funded project that either makes its own money or sells. There's no free lunch's, nothing is 'free'.

[fair egret]

This

And it better be good

[vocal shard]

"you can use mods for this"
Isn't the point... First of all, mods have always been banned. It's not because of what they added necessarily, it's because mods in the first place create a security risk

how much is it? $10?

thats not a crazy amount is it?

Yes they are

All mods are banned

[arctic elm]

what we get rn isnt worth $10 imo. im also an unemployed student lol

[fair egret]

Considering $10 a month can give you something like Netflix or Hulu, yeah $10 can be worth a lot.

[languid beacon]

10 a month or 100 a year (which is $8.33 a month)

[vocal shard]

yeah true that

all mods are banned? When are the new mod signups? :^)

[languid beacon]

Idk i pay more for discord already

[vocal shard]

omg what if they start putting ads

[fair egret]

I think less people are worried about what's actually in it, but what this could possibly create. Imagine if worlds, or more features started to become VRC+ only over time.

[vocal shard]

nononono

[fair egret]

I have a less of a problem with it existing, and more of the risks it provides for the game.

[languid beacon]

Ads are usually an alternative to not charging customers.

[lone linden]

pls get new text chanel in CZ launge

[agile needle]

The whole idea of supporting the devs is great, but if they received $10m in VC funding and still can't make the platform a solid experience, introducing VRC+ isn't going to really improve the end result

[vocal shard]

The $10 a month doesn't go straight to vrchat. Steam takes 30% since vrchat won't be handling the payment themselves.

So if you buy monthly, vrchat gets $7 a month. And if you get yearly, vrchat only receives $5 a month

[sharp saddle]

Stop. With. This. Argument.

[languid beacon]

Those companies want their money back... it's not a free gift.

[fair egret]

The game needs to be worth my damn $10 before I'm willing to fork it up every month, because right now the only thing that makes it worth it are the people I get to talk to.

[sharp saddle]

The investment was to benefit HTC, not VRC, in the long run.

[lone linden]

👍

[arctic elm]

why are lemon

[agile needle]

They would get their money back if the experience was solid

[languid beacon]

How? People using the game for free doesn't make money

[fair egret]

Damn dude, people bout to start brawling in here.

[languid beacon]

Also, it's not like they drop off a 10 million dollar check. they get the funding little by little, and it's best to not rely on it and make the game profitable on it's own, less control from investors

[vocal shard]

If yall don't like $10 that's fine, and if it's a mess people don't want then that pay scheme won't last long. But for what it is, vrc+ is pretty reasonable.

[sharp saddle]

Oh no, here we go again.

[languid beacon]

Please take the emoji spam to the channel that allows emoji spam

[vocal shard]

Mods about to make some lemonade

Sourced locally.

[fair egret]

So what's with this whole lemon meme

I didn't mean to reply that

[vocal shard]

Uh oh its happening again

[languid beacon]

Monkey see, monkey do.

[fair egret]

There they go lmao

[agile needle]

People are mostly complaining about VRC+ because the platform isn't ready to be monetized, not because they're going to monetize it

[fair egret]

T H I S

[languid beacon]

Please do work first, I'll think about paying you for it later.

[vocal shard]

smh its just a donation request for perks

[languid beacon]

Please work for free, then I will consider if I want to pay you for the work you did for me or not.

[vocal shard]

They didnt have to reward the lowest tier people but they did.

The thing is vrchat doesn't have 100% control of development. Those investors own part of the company. And if they want their investment to go to getting the game into a state to monetize, they have to follow

[pale stirrup]

I hope certain avatars won’t get locked behind a paywall down the line

[vocal shard]

Not likely

Yeah thats true also, VRC kinda has to work for their Investors so the bills get paid.

you have the choice to not pay

[languid beacon]

If they did, it would be up to the user submitting the content, not VRChat. They'd be selling it, not VRChat. Personally, I think it's best to keep avatar sales outside of VRChat, where they currently are, on Gumroad and Booth, just because users seeing the content being sold within VRChat has a chance to be perceived very poorly.

[pale stirrup]

Hoping they’ll hire more devs with better management over it all with the money they make from this

Eh I feel like they’ll make Atleast 30000 a month out of it

[fair egret]

Also keep in mind that the reason people mod the game is to add features that they've been asking the devs to add for a long time.

[languid beacon]

User 1.) I hope VRChat doesn't paywall avatars.

User 2.) Let me sell my avatars inside VRChat, instead of on Gumroad or Booth

[fair egret]

Well, some use it for more malicious reasons, but.

[vocal shard]

30k is not much

they have at least 20 people to pay

and we don't even include the cost of all maintenance and servers

[pale stirrup]

This is on top of what they already make though

[vocal shard]

we don't know what they make

A lot of those mods are hacked in though. A lot of them are actually planned soon, after much of the game has been reworked with SDK3, it makes implementation much easier with less overhead.

The issue with mods is not what they do, it's the fact that it's unofficial, and a risk

[pale stirrup]

The tos didn’t outlaw use of the clients anymore then before?

[vocal shard]

Clients have always been bannable

[languid beacon]

I don't know why it needs to be said, but you shouldn't give your username and password to anyone. That includes giving it to a program made by someone else.

[vocal shard]

modded clients were always a big no

no matter the excuse

[pale stirrup]

I know but they hardly mentioned it more

[vocal shard]

you use a modded client and you get caught > banned

[fair egret]

Mods are bannable, but from what I've seen, you don't get banned usually unless you're running around doing stupid shit and yelling to everyone about how you have a client, because it works on a report system.

[vocal shard]

they don't know what mods you are using

There have been ban waves in the past

[pale stirrup]

Yup

[vocal shard]

they just see you are using a mod, can be anything for them

[pale stirrup]

They usually don’t ban people unless there being grade A assholes though

[languid beacon]

I'd expect duplicating paid VRChat features to come with some heavier bans

[pale stirrup]

And if they do it’s like what a day lol

[delicate perch]

so how bad was the reaction to the ToS change?

[pale stirrup]

Oh yeah definitely

[delicate perch]

or did no one actually read it >.>

[fair egret]

That's what I've been expecting.

[vocal shard]

pretty bad

[pale stirrup]

That means favorite lists are gonna be a huge no no

[waxen citrus]

Eh, the same as everything else. (kind of a dumpster fire)

[languid beacon]

No real reactions to the bits that were changed. Just the same old freakout over the distribution rights that were already there, and false rumors.

[vocal shard]

because people actually read the TOS for the first time and noticed a LOT of things

[fair egret]

But how are you supposed to ban wave client side mods unless you literally scan directories for mods.

[delicate perch]

prolly no one read the part that VRChat now OWNS your uploads

[pale stirrup]

TOS change went better then VRC+ by a lot lol

[languid beacon]

Maxwell, stop. These people will take you seriously

[vocal shard]

there are ways to see who is using a mod

[vocal shard]

That was the same as before

[pale stirrup]

Atleast we can actually talk this time lol

[delicate perch]

if it was, its clear as a bell now

[waxen citrus]

They don't, they just have the rights to have it download to other peoples PC. And that was always there.

[delicate perch]

and they should

[fair egret]

I think that as long as you probably don't use mods that poke to server in a weird way, you'll most likely be fine?

[languid beacon]

@vocal shard @delicate perch You retain copyright and any other proprietary rights that you may hold in the User Content you post to the Platform.

[waxen citrus]

Like, for them to see it and what not

[vocal shard]

It just means you're giving them a right to use and show your avatar. Otherwise the game wouldn't work

[fair egret]

But who knows.

[delicate perch]

im not trying to scare anyone, just inform

[languid beacon]

You are incorrect, Maxwell

[pale stirrup]

I didn’t see much bad about it tbh

[waxen citrus]

Well you clearly ain't informed yourself

[vocal shard]

are people still not getting that every cloud based thing needs that licensing tidbit to actually function

[vocal shard]

This

[fair egret]

And by mods that poke the server in a weird way, I mean mods like EMM, that allow you to avatar search, and things like that.

[delicate perch]

im actually having my lawyer go over the new ToS so i cant play until then

[vocal shard]

Legal wording often gets misunderstood

[languid beacon]

Limited licence is not ownership. They specifically state they claim no ownership.

[vocal shard]

Legal jargon is admittedly a tad scary sounding in a vacuum but cmon do ya research

[arctic elm]

lol

[vocal shard]

😂

[delicate perch]

hence why im asking my lawyer

[vocal shard]

a lawyer to read a TOS of a meme game

[pale stirrup]

Myguy please do

I beg you to do that lmfao

[delicate perch]

my content of my avatar is actually copyrighted

[vocal shard]

sure is

[arctic elm]

duh

[delicate perch]

i mean i actually paied for it to be

[languid beacon]

The ToU clearly states what they are licensed, why, and how. It's you who didn't read it, @delicate perch

[pale stirrup]

You bought the avatar yes

[vocal shard]

upload it to VRC and cross a dumb kid and your avatar is ripped and uploaded everywhere

[delicate perch]

so i might not be able to use VRChat which would be sad

[languid beacon]

And before you ask, yes, I read it. All of it.

[arctic elm]

me too, im a tos lawyer

[vocal shard]

that’s a tad dangerous given anyone can rip your stuff, i stopped trying to have watermarks in my models after people would just rip and remove em

[vocal shard]

The tos states you retain the copyright. Vrchat does not own your content. by uploading it, you are giving them a license to have it on their servers and shown in game. Thats all

I'm a lawyer too

I watched a youtube video about it

[pale stirrup]

I mostly read through it I personally didn’t see too much I’d be annoyed about

[vocal shard]

This is clearly a lawyer only server

[arctic elm]

^

[pale stirrup]

^

[delicate perch]

^

[fair egret]

^

[vocal shard]

v

[delicate perch]

V

[waxen citrus]

<

[delicate perch]

v

[vocal shard]

Anyway...

[pale stirrup]

No no he has a point

[delicate perch]

Kiomi code or something?

[arctic elm]

these nuggies are good uwu

[vocal shard]

see you in 1 hour when more people wake up and start freaking out about the TOS

[pale stirrup]

It’s 1am cst imagine how it’s gonna be in the morning lol

[waxen citrus]

Start freaking out about shit that was already there lol

[pearl loom]

so is there anything important in the new tos update

[delicate perch]

im just very careful when it comes to open platform games like this i dont ever agree until i let my lawyer check it

[pale stirrup]

Well uh good for you

[vocal shard]

just about the paid part basically

nothing else changed
they just moved some stuff in other sections but it stayed the same

Basically they just had to add parts regarding the subscription, cancelation, ect

[pearl loom]

oh okay

[waxen citrus]

Yeah, they only added that but people are freaking out about other parts because they didn't read the TOS before this.

[vocal shard]

So honestly, they add a new service.
New service needs new terms of service to reflect that.

[arctic elm]

accreate

[delicate perch]

this is the part that worries me: 9.2. Limited License Grant to VRChat. By posting, publishing, or otherwise developing User Content in the Platform, you grant VRChat a worldwide, non-exclusive, irrevocable, royalty-free, perpetual, fully paid right and license (with the right to sublicense) to host, store, transfer, display, perform, reproduce, modify for the purpose of formatting for display, and distribute your User Content, in whole or in part, in any media formats and through any media channels now known or hereafter developed. You agree that the license granted to VRChat under this Section 9.2 applies to any User Content you previously posted, published, or otherwise developed in the Platform.

[vocal shard]

tl;dr : allows us to download the model into our server so other players can actually download it too and see it

[arctic elm]

yeah thats so they can host it on the servers and display it to users lol

[vocal shard]

you cant sue vrchat if its (your own avatar or world) found in another video or livestream.

[arctic elm]

its also a limited license, implying it can be revoked

[delicate perch]

to host, store, transfer, display, perform, reproduce, modify

[waxen citrus]

You can revoke it by deleting your content of the platform.

[arctic elm]

yes, they need to copy and optimize your files for transfer and storage on their servers

its just liability stuff

[delicate perch]

covering all the bases?

[arctic elm]

yep

[vocal shard]

What was the TOS thing about

[delicate perch]

makes sense, this is why im not a lawyer >.<

[west yoke]

Why are you just now worrying about it though? That's been in the ToS for a while now.

[vocal shard]

I logged in today and it says my account got updated

What does that mean

[sharp saddle]

Were you Visitor before?

[delicate perch]

yeah, but never THIS clear

[vocal shard]

I’m a known user

I mean unless you make 200 avatars or something im not sure what reason there is be afraid of. (its terms are still there to protect you anyways)

[languid beacon]

I responded to this already lol https://i.postimg.cc/vHbWMcFX/image.png

[vocal shard]

it's been like that for like 3+ years

[delicate perch]

regardless Second Life went through this long ago, you would think i would remember that

[vocal shard]

Jesus has vrc changed that much since 2017 or 18

yes

[arctic elm]

no

[vocal shard]

People are so much cocky nowadays

yes

Before it was heaven for me

no

[delicate perch]

whos cocky on VRChat?

[vocal shard]

A lot of ppl I see

it was always hell

just different

[heady salmon]

humans are humans, ingame and irl

[vocal shard]

🧠

[arctic elm]

wait im not playing with ai?

[vocal shard]

I had this dude who kept making fun of me and following me around because I am transgender

[arctic elm]

welcome to trans life

[languid beacon]

@delicate perch Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, but I've tried to simply it as best I could. https://i.postimg.cc/y6CWRtNb/image.png

[vocal shard]

All of his stupid fucking friends kept telling me I will never be a boy

[arctic elm]

block button works well

[vocal shard]

And that I have to stop pretending to be one

I blocked them

[arctic elm]

report too

[vocal shard]

That’s also the reason why I went text to speech

[arctic elm]

i wish vrc would give a notification if they ban someone you report

[vocal shard]

Because of idiots like him , I felt so uncomfortable getting called a she so I went text to speech

But know I can say the entire cock and ball torture copypastas as I wish

Sooooooo

[delicate perch]

never be a boy? Pinocchio? Is that you?

[vocal shard]

LMAOOO

oh vrc discord , how I love tey

Does anyone have like a surplus of knolege on how vr chat avatars work?

[arctic elm]

fun fact the voice actress for michiru is also the voice for V in cyberpunk

[arctic elm]

yes

[pearl loom]

mute/block all annoying people, worst case jump to another instance

that's what I do mostly

don't have to do it often, but there's an eventual screaming kid running around who needs a mute

[vocal shard]

Alright so basically I noticed on quest on (pc) all the charaters defualt to the F3 pose instead of the F1 pose would anyone know how to fix that...

[arctic elm]

#user-support-old or something

[vocal shard]

alright thank u lol im new to this server

[languid beacon]

Blizzard gives a notification when they take some kind of action on someone you reported. They won't say what the action was, though.

[pearl loom]

riot games as well

[languid beacon]

I don't think they can

[vocal shard]

I always wondered if it's true or just bullshit to make you feel good

[pearl loom]

it's usually true

[languid beacon]

I don't think lying to customers is safe business practice

[arctic elm]

its always nice to know the jerks got banned

[languid beacon]

Well, in the case of blizzard, they could have only gotten muted, or even just warned, they don't say what the action was

[pearl loom]

in case of riot it's either mute or ban

[languid beacon]

Also it usually ends up being like 2-3 days later, so an action probably only gets taken after a bunch of reports, then they send the message out to everyone who sent a report.

[meager plaza]

🥖

[pearl loom]

well it's only partial mute, you get to say 5 sentences and then you get 1 sentence every 5 min of the game

so you have to use your 5 messages wisely

but yeah there's no good that would come from lying to your customers to "make them feel good"

[heady salmon]

prepares herself for the influx of festive avatars soon to come.

[vocal shard]

Im already ready :D

block button is hot and ready

padorus armed and ready 👀

[iron cobalt]

I notice a new TOS. What changed between the old one and the new one?

[silver helm]

vrchat plus stuff

[iron cobalt]

Is there any diff of the changes specifically made to accomodate VRChat+?

Is it just section 8, or more?

[silver helm]

payments and bla bla, you can read if you are interested enough.

[tender loom]

Section 11.

Highly recommending reading that one.

[iron cobalt]

Thank you.

I just went on Archive.org, and there are definitely more changes than just those two sections. First license is 26 sections long, second is 29 sections. I think the third is just the California-specific one, though.

[tender loom]

I would've been nice if they've provided a changelog and clarifications for each change - so as to avoid all the chat here about it every time they release a new TOU

alas.

[upbeat imp]

🍋

🍋

🍋

[umbral reef]

Gee i wonder if il get banned for spamming something and not what i post

[umbral reef]

Implying most people even read the documents they send instead of just parroting what others scream in this community :c
It would have been nice but i dont see the rumors and lies not happen around this as its legal talk what most people flat out cant understand.

[tender loom]

well, I don't agree with that.

I think that most people can, and I'm sure the transparency, or even the attempt at transparency, would be appreciated. I certainly would appreciate it.

[umbral reef]

The transparency for sure, but its still legal talk.
For example people always confuse the limited license to host part as that VRC can sell your avatar.
Its clearly, like literally says in there, that its to share the avatar for a limited time.
People still cant grasp that idea.

We are talking about the community who thinks you can literally blow up pc's by crashing...

[tender loom]

targeting the lowest common denominator isn't a great way to treat people in general, but I do get what you mean.

[iron cobalt]

Doing a diff, it looks like the TOU was updated all over the place, not just in any single section. It is interesting displaying the two side-by-side.

[umbral reef]

Those are the people who start the rumors and lies within the community.
And as the group is a bit bigger then normal with the young but not extremely young target audience it also isnt great.

[iron cobalt]

I'm surprised I'm not the only one asking about this. Most people just gloss over everything to my knowledge.

[umbral reef]

You got an wayback link for me? Im lazy so just gonna ask before i google 👀

[iron cobalt]

It's not that hard to understand. I've seen much worse.

[iron cobalt]

Here you go =(^ω^)= : https://web.archive.org/web/20201124190005/https://hello.vrchat.com/legal

That one is right before they changed it, though it looks like it hasn't been updated since 2018.

[umbral reef]

Oh i read the ToS myself and its far from overly complicated. Its for sure writing so that people should understand it.
But we know how the average person alive is and that 50% is dumber then them.

Also thanks ❤️

[tender loom]

I came in a while ago with specific concerns about Section 11 seeming to disallow all non-streaming distribution of content (i.e. uploaded youtube videos such as what CooperTom, et. al. produce) without a specially negotiated contract between the content producer and VRC and then not defining the term streaming... haven't yet gotten a response, so hopefully they clarify that. Really hope that isn't the intended effect.

so, yeah, I do wish people would read these more thoroughly

[iron cobalt]

I copied and pasted the entire thing into a text document to get a diff, then used the method from the Gentoo Wiki to make it more readable: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Patches

[tender loom]

and it's good to see people curious about it.

[iron cobalt]

They updated the TOU to reflect that:

Nothing in this Section 11 or in this TOU is intended to restrict users from streaming their use of the Platform through a third-party streaming platform, including Twitch and YouTube, provided that such use is in compliance with all other terms of this TOU, including the Brand Guidelines and in compliance with all applicable third-party terms relating to those third-party systems (such streaming, “Permitted Streaming”). This TOU does not prohibit you from monetizing such streaming through third-party streaming platforms’ authorized monetization systems. Your use of any third-party streaming platform is subject to that platform’s terms.

Which is strange, since I would think that would be reflected in the updated date...

[tender loom]

and as I said earlier... that refers to streaming only - which is a live broadcast.

[iron cobalt]

Ooh!

Good point.

[tender loom]

not something I make, edit and then upload later.

so, yeah.

[silver helm]

I am not a lawyer. but section 11 practically does not prohibit the sale of avatars? Or at least use samples of the avatars in game?

[manic halo]

try section 16.

[tender loom]

given that avatars are themselves software based on the SDK, that's a good question - now, it's a good question, re: whether or not you can redistribute the SDK with your avatar files

[umbral reef]

If you sell it directly ingame then yes. That could be argued unless you make some deals with VRC.
Fairly sure (also not an lawyer) if you advertise to an third party platform then its also fine.

[tender loom]

at the end of the day, you'll need to get clarification from VRC and your own lawyer.

[iron cobalt]

I think the "materials" refers to things released by VRChat, not by users, no?

[tender loom]

specific SDK terms are https://hello.vrchat.com/legal/sdk which is where I'd expect such terms to be set

given user created materials are all built with the SDK

[silver helm]

I think it's safe to sell avatars that are compatible with vrchat as long as you don't distribute sdk code. however my question is whether it is allowed to use in-game videos of the avatar as a publicity method or test sanples of the avatar in a pedestal of a world. Since you are doing business outside of the game. It is confusing for me.

[manic halo]

since its pretty much basicly play with wording i was stuck little bit on this part here

and yes you are right, is it vrchat stuff or the stuff i upload i have rightfull ownership of in with the sdk holded accountable when uploading it to vrc

As between you and VRChat, all Materials, including all associated intellectual property rights, are the sole and exclusive property of VRChat

[tender loom]

section 2.2 of the SDK license refers specifically to a non-commercial license.

[median current]

do any of you guys know a mansion world

[tender loom]

specifically:

Licensee may not use the SDK or Documentation for any commercial uses or other uses outside the scope of this License without signing a separate written agreement with VRChat.

so. hrmn

in short, get a lawyer and get some specific legally informed advice.

[manic halo]

just saying, that can be said about with license agreements is. an online signature works aswell as a normal one.

[median current]

ok thanks

[iron cobalt]

Ooh! That clause did not exist in the old one.

[tender loom]

just saying, a plain reading of the license says you can't sell anything you build with the SDK but I don't know.

[iron cobalt]

Specifically the string "commercial uses" didn't.

[tender loom]

oh, fun.

well, there you go then.

something else to get clarification from VRC on.

[iron cobalt]

Oh wait, NVM, that is the SDK license, not the main one.

[tender loom]

"Did you mean to ban the sale of anything built with the SDK?"

[silver helm]

many people are going to have to get a new job.

[iron cobalt]

Where is the VRChat SDK license?

[tender loom]

https://hello.vrchat.com/legal/sdk

as linked from the main TOU

[iron cobalt]

Has that one been updated?

[silver helm]

I know several people who make a living selling avatars.

[iron cobalt]

Oh, doesn't matter; Archive.org apparently only has an archive of it from TODAY.

[twin fractal]

you realize this is a "cover" that won't be enforced right?

[vocal shard]

and what if it does ? what then huh ? what then ?

[iron cobalt]

Also, it is not new after all. That was a mistake on my part! I thought the clause was in the main TOS, not the SDK one.

[iron cobalt]

Even still, they could always decide to start enforcing it at some point.

[tender loom]

that's not how one views contracts... a giant sword of damocles hanging over their head. so yeah.

great. :/

[umbral reef]

Dont read any other ToS then 👀
For sure not from discord and youtube then

[silver helm]

nothing stops them from starting to enforce it

[vocal shard]

reading TOS is for lawyers, none of my business I jsut press accept and continue

[iron cobalt]

Wouldn't kill avatar selling though. People could just sell avatars before SDK integration. It would make it much more of a pain though...

[twin fractal]

go read the TOS to all the services you use and you'll have a panic attack lol

[tender loom]

do you suggest everyone sign contracts without reading them then?

[vocal shard]

yes

[tender loom]

then you're a a danger to those people.

[umbral reef]

Kinda what the ToS is for and why almost all of the 'not common sense' parts for normal users cant be used in court

[silver helm]

i have a panic atack. i hate amazon, fb, discord. but i cant live without it

[iron cobalt]

I mean, I don't trust most other services, and that distrust extends to VRChat for me.

[tender loom]

no, that's absolutely not how courts work.

[vocal shard]

we got a lawyer oclac

[umbral reef]

Beside that there is more then one legal president in europa, canada and NA where ToS parts get thrown out because they are un-enforceable or too complex.

[vocal shard]

back down

video game TOS lawyer is here

[umbral reef]

Look at the class action lawsuit part in the VRC ToS, it even lists it in there that it might be not valid.

[tender loom]

sigh

whatever, this discord is about as helpful as the public lobbies in VRC.

[vocal shard]

😢

[iron cobalt]

You were helpful. I wouldn't have noticed the lack of exemption for YouTube videos without you.

[silver helm]

not a lawyer. but is forbidding a class action not illegal? At least I am sure that in several states and countries it is.

[iron cobalt]

It's not something I would say the sky is falling from, since that probably isn't the intention, but it is something to beware of for the future.

[umbral reef]

In almost every place yes...
Unless you specifically sign the rights away, what normally would not fall under agreeing to an ToS it cant be enforced.
Thats why they say 'If X part doesnt apply then just use the normal legal stuff at Y'

[twin fractal]

good. you get it

[tender loom]

sigh we try, some people be suggesting some really stupid stuff tho

[manic halo]

this is really not comforting to read it trough the part of the SDK really what is making me have certain moments of. why is this worded like this. and which materials exactly... the SDK i am using with or without my avatar material files. and i own the rights to some of these materials included in the package and vrc owns the sdk materials.

[tender loom]

also, if any part of the license is found uneforcable, standard severability ( specifically SDK license section 7.7 ensures the rest remains in effect, as does 26.9 in the primary TOU )

[untold nebula]

If your friends block you in VRC would you still see them in the friend list and online status?

[tender loom]

so, no, it's not like forbidding class actions makes the entire agreement null and void

[vocal shard]

no

[tender loom]

these are well and purposefully constructed documents with multiple failsafes and fallbacks, as you would expect.

[twin fractal]

why are your friends blocking you oof

[untold nebula]

🤔 interesting if you keep seeing your friend online in a world but he's definitely not there is that a bug?

[vocal shard]

probably

social menu is fairly scuffed
friendlist doesn't update immediatly

[untold nebula]

totally not bullying having fun with him irl

[vocal shard]

if it even update anymore

[silver helm]

as it is with any medium-sized company on internet.

[twin fractal]

VRChat takes forever to update sometimes. friends can log off and and itlle still show them for like 10+ minutes

[untold nebula]

same goes for the site?

[tender loom]

indeed

[vocal shard]

unsure about that
I'm tempted to say yes since they pull out the info from the same thing but don't take my word for it

[tender loom]

5.c.If the dispute is finally resolved through arbitration in your favor, VRChat will pay you the highest of: (i) the amount awarded by the arbitrator, if any; (ii) the last written settlement amount offered by VRChat in settlement of the dispute prior to the arbitrator’s award; and (iii) $1,000.