career-chat

[red dirge]

I can be a pilot make enough money, take CS and then work in game dev if it fails il just return as a pilot, I guess this is my best option right?

[plucky hatch]

😓

[tidal moth]

if you're a pilot making enough money just pay someone to make games for you

[chilly sundial]

if you want 8 years of education give or take a few then sure

[plucky hatch]

That sounds very ambitious to be honest

[red dirge]

But I want to make it, that’s the fun in it

[chilly sundial]

a cs degree will be like 4 years maybe, a pilot takes around the same

[tidal moth]

I think it takes a while to become captain anyhow

like what

[red dirge]

Flight school is only a year

[plucky hatch]

Not for commercial

[tidal moth]

5 years of flight school, then another 5 years for your 10k hours of flying

[chilly sundial]

if you wanna fly commerical its gonna take a lot longer than a year

[serene crystal]

pilots are pretty underpaid iirc

[chilly sundial]

they wont even let you see a passenger after a year

[tidal moth]

I mean they still make bank

[plucky hatch]

Yes, salaries are a lot lower than people think

[chilly sundial]

uk is around £36k to £46k

[plucky hatch]

I make more than pilots here in Sweden and UK

[tidal moth]

"underpaid"

[chilly sundial]

us is better for pilots at $93k

[pure kettle]

I'm not sure how pilot break time works, but surely you can use spare time to make games, and also pay contributors on the side, right?

[chilly sundial]

but yeah, the dream of making enough money piloting until you can run an indie studio is again unlikely, just make the games in your spare time

[tidal moth]

even their juniors get paid better than our juniors 😂

[chilly sundial]

if you own an indie studio as a company your time is gonna be spent on business more than making games anyway

[red dirge]

I dont even know what to do anymore, this don’t work out this won’t work out this is hard, idk

[chilly sundial]

if you work professional as a programmer, then you get told what to code, you do it, get reviewed onto the next thing

[tidal moth]

welcome to life?

[chilly sundial]

pick something you wanna do and stick to it

tryina jack of all trades it is likely gonna end in disappoinment

[tidal moth]

do what you want to do the most. if that's games, then do games

but don't pick CS if you want to be a game artist or whatever

[chilly sundial]

again unless you want to be nearly 30 before you even start your career

^

[tidal moth]

or if you don't know what it takes to be a game dev

[chilly sundial]

^

[red dirge]

I want to game dev, being a pilot is my best alternative how ever I’d more prefer game dev, idk if there is a way to do both until I can run a studio and make income off of it

[chilly sundial]

there isnt

[tidal moth]

running a studio is a full time job

you'll be running a business

not running the development

[chilly sundial]

you wont be making games if you run a studio

[red dirge]

Yes and how do I guarantee the income, I can’t then why do people do it

[chilly sundial]

youll be managing employees and impressing investors

[chilly sundial]

you dont

[tidal moth]

passion

people work for less pay, for less benefits because they truly enjoy what they do

[chilly sundial]

^

[plucky hatch]

Yep

[tidal moth]

if you don't want to make that sacrifice

don't become a game dev

[chilly sundial]

its the trade offs, make mega bank and be less happy with the job

[red dirge]

I can, but atleast enough money to run a house

[chilly sundial]

or do what you enjoy

[plucky hatch]

Yeah, you don’t go into this industry to make money

[chilly sundial]

again as an indie dev its unlikely you will be able to live off your games

it can happen

very unlikely

the point of indie devs was games made by people that enjoy the craft

[red dirge]

Then do all of these people just spend money and time making games just to barley make money off of it and still be working a side job

[chilly sundial]

again run an indie studio, its more likely to make money

but then you wont be making games

[chilly sundial]

ye

pretty much

[red dirge]

Il make someone mange it

[chilly sundial]

it isnt as linear as that

[pure kettle]

I think safe to say indie devs who thinks money/income first is destined to fail

[chilly sundial]

you cant just pay someone to do the job of your ceo

if you want to do that

prepare for paying 6 figures

you dont tend to own a company and then be a lower rung employee

[tidal moth]

look, you're clearly out of your depth here. I'd suggest understanding first if you really want to make the sacrifice of wealth to make games for a living. if you don't, that's fine.

[chilly sundial]

if you wnana make games, make em in your spare time with passion

[red dirge]

Then fuck studios, how about freelancing

[plucky hatch]

Yeah something like that, I know people working second jobs

[tidal moth]

worse than studio work

the pay is better, but no benefits

also you're not going to find work as a freelancer if you don't have experience

[red dirge]

So basically I got no hope in working this

[chilly sundial]

you can earn a better wage and make games, in a studio, but youre generally confined to 1 role

[tidal moth]

unless you're passionate

no

[chilly sundial]

it seems your in this for the money rather than passion

[tidal moth]

if you chase two rabbits you'll lose them both

[red dirge]

I can I just don’t want to go homeles

[red dirge]

I’m in for passion, I just want to work in it full time

[chilly sundial]

a game made with passion and with attention payed to every aspect is gonna be more liekly to work than a game made purely for money

[tidal moth]

it may take a long time before you can establish that

[chilly sundial]

well full time indie dev is a rarely enjoyed luxury

[tidal moth]

you are going down a difficult road

[pure kettle]

I can't tell what the Finns felt with the conscription

[chilly sundial]

you will probably have to build your brand over decades before you could live off it

you wont be 22 and full time indie deving, owning your 4 bedroom house unless you land some phasmophobia level luck

[red dirge]

Then my best option for now is flight school the second thing I love, and make games as love for it.

[chilly sundial]

yes

or you could pursue a CS degree or something and go into software development/web dev which can make bank

[red dirge]

Not into that sadly

[tidal moth]

fintech is the bankiest of the bank

[chilly sundial]

databse management can also pay a ton but thats really boring

[tidal moth]

in that you work for banks, sometimes in banks, while making bank

[chilly sundial]

you will lose your soul writing sql for a living

[plucky hatch]

Yes indeed, 3D was just my hobby for the first 6 years of my career, I didn’t decide to peruse it as a job until much later into my very late 20’s.

[tidal moth]

friend of mine worked in fintech for a while to the tune of 25k eur a month

ridiculous

[chilly sundial]

holy shit

[red dirge]

Idk if I’m understanding this wrong or what, how many of you have game dev as a “job”, I feel like “hobby” is something small to describe it, all the work, time and money just for a hobby, turns out after all I’m pursuing a hobby not something I can make a living off

[chilly sundial]

a lot of people here work professionally in the industry

[red dirge]

I got no choice in that if I want to be publishing my own games

Hope*

[chilly sundial]

if your asking if anyone here is a successful full time indie dev

[pure kettle]

Personally I do it more as a hobby, considering how lacking local game dev jobs were (that isn't Unity)

[tidal moth]

I would not recommend that no. unless you go work in fintech for a couple of years

[chilly sundial]

then on one unless dknighter is here or satisfactory ceo or smthn

[red dirge]

I’d also love teaching game dev, another side job I can do ig

[tidal moth]

teaching jobs can pay well, but again, you need experience

[chilly sundial]

i do it as a hobby, if i make it decently big then great! but otherwise thats why im pursuing a CS degree so i can build a career in software engineering

[tidal moth]

I've had some decent teaching offers

[plucky hatch]

I was saying myself, it was my hobby for many years, I only made the jump to 3D 5 years ago, now I am Creative Lead for a studio.
So by that I was saying be a pilot, keep doing it for fun, and then one day you can always go into it if you want.

[red dirge]

Well, I’m making games from now until being a pilot I’d have over 6-7 years

[tidal moth]

that's

not really what experience is

[chilly sundial]

professional experience

working in a studio/comapny

releasing your own games is all well and good but they might all be bad, as no one is there to correct or guide you in good practices

thats what experience means in a job

[tidal moth]

nevermind you have no experience working within production schedules

or with other people who may not want to do what you want to do

[chilly sundial]

they wnat you to have had those code reviews, made those dumb mistakes etc

and you just havent had experience being professional

[red dirge]

So again to sum this up, for what I want to do is making my own games and not be a studio slave, my best choice is flight school, try to make games if it works out when I’m 60, then I’d work on it

[chilly sundial]

the whole corporate attitude

[chilly sundial]

pretty much

you aint gonna hve this all done by mid twenties,

its gonna take a while for a career, and it's gonna take a while to build a brand

[red dirge]

But again, I don’t want to feel I’m the only one who it isn’t working out for, most ue tuts and people on the server don’t work it as a official job or make a living off it, they have second jobs right?

[tidal moth]

you're not setting anything in stone yet. you're what, 16?

[chilly sundial]

yes everyone does

[tidal moth]

you can't expect your life to be fully planned out by the time you're 20

[chilly sundial]

the people here make games cause they want to

as a side project

[red dirge]

How long maybe until I can build a company and reputation, how old would I be

[plucky hatch]

30’s

[tidal moth]

120+

[chilly sundial]

you may be in your late twenties, it may be 30s, it may be 40s

there is no guarantee

its just the odds of success go up the longer you try

but again

building a company means you aint gonna be making games

[tidal moth]

I'd drop the entire idea of "making your own studio"

[chilly sundial]

youll be making a business

[tidal moth]

making a business like that has a 99% failure rate

so it's just wasted effort

[chilly sundial]

you still seem to be hyperfocused on this indie dev will bring you good fortune

[tidal moth]

if you want to make games as a hobby, do that

[chilly sundial]

it likely isnt gonna happen

[red dirge]

Well how do I make games without a business or studio and make decent money from it, it’s not my only goal but I’d wish to work it

[chilly sundial]

sure your probably going to get enough money as a nice bonus

[tidal moth]

but don't think that just because it's a hobby you can make a company out of it like it's nothing

[chilly sundial]

luck

[pure kettle]

By the time I was 16, I still think of making games as a hobby

Guess not much had changed for 6 years lol

[tidal moth]

as a hobby

there you go

it's free

doesn't involve other people

you can work on things you want to work on

it's the dream

[red dirge]

Free work basically

[tidal moth]

yes for yourself

[chilly sundial]

In my article ‘How much money do indie games make?’ I showed that over 50% of indie games never make more than $4,000 on Steam while the top 2,000 or so indie games (c. 9% of indie games on Steam) make over $200,000 in gross revenue. That’s still a lot of games that succeed and do well.

hint your first game will most definitely be in that first brackert

your second game may well be too

[tidal moth]

I'd be surprised if they'd make back the $100 it costs to put your game on steam

[red dirge]

Will having a CS degree increase my chance of making a successful game and possibly enough money to keep going, (if I have enough Knowledge to Make games)

[chilly sundial]

^

[chilly sundial]

not at all

it isnt about the quality of the game

[tidal moth]

CS will just teach you really good practices

[chilly sundial]

its about it being seen

yeah

ive learnt a lot of good practices from CS already

[tidal moth]

as for the quality of the game, it's about execution than it is about the actual quality

a lot of games are shitty

but they are successful business ventures

[red dirge]

Well as a hobby, can I make it my primary job I love and make enough money to live from it, or will the prolly never happen

[chilly sundial]

a lot of really great games get overlooked

[chilly sundial]

the latter unfortunately

[plucky hatch]

I think you just have a lot to learn, you are only young, I would not have these worries.

[chilly sundial]

it will liekly never happen being able to live full time off your own hames

but that doesnt mean you shouldnt try

[tidal moth]

yeah give it a few years

[red dirge]

It’s my future tho, I want to know what to learn and what to work

[tidal moth]

let the wisdom of age set in

[chilly sundial]

you have plenty of future left

[tidal moth]

reconsider after uni what your options are

you may find that games aren't actually all that

[chilly sundial]

theres like a 40% chance that in 5 years you will say "i dont like this" and switch over

[plucky hatch]

Study or try and get a job then, I would forgot completely about starting your own business.

[chilly sundial]

you got plenty of life left in ya

you dont need to, and wont have it all figured otu at 16

hell youll never have it all figured out

life is about improvising sometimes

it aint linear

[red dirge]

So il just keep doing games for fun bec I love it, take flight school and work in it, if I still love making games then I’d keep working on it until I can make a living from it and have it my main job, best option for now?

[plucky hatch]

Yes

[chilly sundial]

yes

[tidal moth]

sounds like a plan

[chilly sundial]

if you make it big that would be amazing, but also consider that even the money you do get can be a nice bonus

[red dirge]

Iv had a miss understanding of this career for a while now, dam 😞, well thanks for all the time

[chilly sundial]

ye your game might have only pulled in 4k, but treat yourself to a new pc or smthn

[tidal moth]

at least it's not a mrs understanding

[chilly sundial]

i will support the joke even if some people dont want to

[red dirge]

Same

[chilly sundial]

its better than the recent lorash puns

[red dirge]

Hel be mad if he sees this

😂

[pure kettle]

😔 just because of CE signature

[chilly sundial]

they know i don't like their puns

its ok

[red dirge]

So il do like I said but I still should pursie game dev bec I love it.

[chilly sundial]

yes

make the games cause you want to

not for the money

sure that means theyll take a bit longer to release

but who cares

if you put more focus into your passion, then that will come through in your game

[red dirge]

in all honestly, im re thinking all of this, i dont want the money, i dont mind having a second job i love, even tho il be doing 2 completely diffrent things, i just want to make games to build an audience, people who get exciteted for next release, enter game jams, have my games regionies even if i dont make good money from it, being a pilot can compensate, screw money and career, is there a chance/ hope i can do what i want t? building an audiance and have my games somewhats known, etc, id just love for that to happen

[chilly sundial]

you can maybe foster a small audience, but that comes down to your marketing more

if you dont do any promotion and only have a steam page for a few days

[red dirge]

money does the job?

[chilly sundial]

then your game is dead before it's launched

[pure kettle]

Amen to that, #volunteer-projects

[chilly sundial]

money always does help yes, but marketing is expensive

but just remember, even if you only have two active players

you have made those 2 people happy with your game

so dont forget about them

[pure kettle]

If you're only thinking for the money, you're just competing in #volunteer-projects

And I take that channel purely as entertainment, looking at hilarious listings

[chilly sundial]

but dont forget, an audience means a successful game

[red dirge]

well for now as a student id prefer money, but i can cancel that out, but after uni i would work for free for sure

[chilly sundial]

there are definitely ways to improve your visibility

but thats best done in your own time

[red dirge]

thats my dream just people playing my game, having fun, etc, and getting feedback ,and updating my game to make them more happy, thats what i want, do i have more hope in that than having my main goal money?

[chilly sundial]

those go hand in hand

you cannot have an audience without a successful game

but also remember

even if you only have a small amount of people

dont forget em

[red dirge]

well , i have time, i got 2 years until uni, 3 years uni and my free time as a pilot, i should build from now to increase my chance

[chilly sundial]

build from whenever you want

as long as you remember it is a game of chance

[tidal moth]

I'd recommend just doing practice projects

[chilly sundial]

and there is no gurantee unless you throw a bunch of money at it

yes me too

practice your skills

[red dirge]

well yes thats what i meant

[chilly sundial]

otherwise your game is going to be bad

[red dirge]

and also doing youtube tuts could help land me a freelance

[chilly sundial]

dont release a game without having learned things

no it couldnt

[tidal moth]

I wouldn't do youtube tuts

[red dirge]

dani got his games popular bec of it, well, not tuts but devlogs

[tidal moth]

devlogs are fine

tuts aren't

especially if you don't know much about game development

you're just stringing people along

there's already too many people out there like that

[chilly sundial]

question what is wrong with tuts if you know what you are doing

is it just that it is hypersaturated

[tidal moth]

see above comment

[red dirge]

so im better off pursiing the dream of having a known game than money + being in a well payed job can help, right?

[tidal moth]

there are no guarantees

you are better off if you can live life comfortably and have game dev as a hobby

[chilly sundial]

at the end of the day, the world revolves around money, it doesnt care what you wanna do

focus on a career

make games cause you want to

whatever that career is

pick something you enjoy

[red dirge]

well, as a pilot i have alot of free time, 9-20 days off a month is allowed, that should help me in this, + afterall if my games launch does go well , i can spend time helping and working with others bec i love game dev

[pure kettle]

Also you're 16, and you're still had a long way to go, and I hope so.

Not related to this channel

[red dirge]

i have some mental problems, i kinda love game dev too much to call it a hobby, i dont get concivnced unless its kidna the truth and people tell me, what i mean by it, is that a hobby isnt/doesnt have to be something of a low value, it can be something expensive, hard, time consuming, right? not bec its a "hobby" its easy and not with a value?

im just trying to understand life

[stuck holly]

Also consider that a career change is something a lot of people do as well. No matter how much upfront planning you do, the world will look different after e.g a decade @red dirge

[plucky hatch]

Sure hobbies can be very expensive, photography for example, horse riding, motorbikes, etc

[chilly sundial]

building keyboards 😔

[plucky hatch]

I also had the opposite, I used to fly for a hobby @red dirge

[pure kettle]

I can now think of myself becoming a drummer after making games for few years lol

[stuck holly]

As simple as it gets: a job is an activity to be able to pay the bills ( gets more serious once/if you have family). A hobby is just what you like doing and fills you with joy and excitement. Now if you can get two in one then thats ideal. However it still might not last forever…also making your hobby into your dayjob can be a different experience all together and can lead to you not liking it anymore.
There are no definite answers for these questions in life. Just do what you think is best for the forseeable future and keep adjusting as you go. That‘s the best you can do really.

[red dirge]

I just feel like a calling it a hobby lowers it’s value, people take the understanding of a hobby like drawing etc, not something like game dev which is really hard to learn and to value

[chilly sundial]

not at all

a hobby is anything that hasnt progressed into something professional

[plucky hatch]

You can also have a hobby in the same area as your day job, very common in design!

[red dirge]

Well, it not being pro. Lowers its value, I’m not taken seriously when I say I do games, it’s taken as a something sillly and easy

[chilly sundial]

it definitely does not lol

[plucky hatch]

You are probably not taken seriously because you are 16

But it’s nothing to do with it being a hobby or not.

[chilly sundial]

^

your lack of experience is why you wont be taken seriously

not because of your hobby

[pure kettle]

Out of curiousity, google said that Egypt's conscription is 3 years long
I think Finland's around a year

[red dirge]

That’s a reason I don’t want to be there, I have some mental issues that should get me a idk it in English but not eligible, Egypt don’t care

Yes what I have will affect my serving

Plus it’s obligatory

Plus you get treated like shit

A lot of reasons I don’t want to be there, yes it will come with a cost that I’d never be able to go back to Egypt or else I’d be jailed for god knows how long, that’s why a citizenship is one of my priorities

[plucky hatch]

It’s usually a 5 year wait for citizenship in most places fyi,

[pure kettle]

Finland's conscription is around a year, and South Korea's around one and a half year.

[red dirge]

Well it’s better than not having a chance at all, I’d best hope I get a job there so I have a chance to get it

[pure kettle]

But you should also prepare for the case it's not the case.

I can feel how grueling conscription can be to some people

(I took what I think equivalent to boot camp for like a week out of a job's obligatory programme and already felt grueling to me lol)

[spiral bramble]

Are you an airline pilot?

I a flight sim enthusiast myself.

[red dirge]

I am too, I bought xplane and I know much about flying, I learnt the a320 and 737 using actual university courses

[red dirge]

Rn no, later hopefully yes

[spiral bramble]

Cool. Well Flight Sims are accurate enough to real life in some cases.

[red dirge]

Yes most of the time

Come on dm

[steady pewter]

sus

[vagrant bramble]

:triangular_flag_on_post: Emperor#1014 received strike 1. As a result, they were muted for 10 minutes.

[left compass]

Pardon me for I'm completely new to UE, 3D modeling/animation, Game-development and I have a little background on programming. I just want to ask if as an upcoming college student after 2 years, would learning Unreal Engine 5 or UE in general be useful to some courses out there? If yes, which ones? I'm really lost on what career I want to pursue in, but I've taken an interest in Unreal Engine in general. I want to learn and start right now while I'm still 16 y/o. Thanks in advanced.

[tidal moth]

even if it isn't useful, if you enjoy it why not just have it as a hobby? no shame in that

then if it becomes useful later on, all the better

[left compass]

Yeah probably, I'm trying new things to discover myself better and to find what I want in the future. Maybe I shouldn't set this as an aspiration for my future career but for exploring what I can do to shape my future career. I think I'm just pressured on how all my friends already have their future planned, and here I am still unsure of everything. I'll definitely try to make it a hobby and explore UE since I'm interested in it. Thanks for the answers 😄

[tidal moth]

nobody has their life planned out at 16

even if they say they have

[pure kettle]

Chances are it's going to change at least 2 years later.

[serene crystal]

8 year old me wanted to be a scientist making giant robots 😔

[tidal moth]

hows that coming along

[serene crystal]

I can roughly draw them at least

[tidal moth]

I mean you gotta draw the blueprints first right

[pure kettle]

Screw BP, just go all out C++ first try

[tidal moth]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blueprint

[silent yacht]

In USA is $120k a good salary for a blueprint programmer

[plucky hatch]

Well, its over double the US average, that should give you an indication.

[silent yacht]

Oh well then

Hmm. Good to know. Ty

[plucky hatch]

You can easily google and research these things, I would advise to as its very dependant on many factors, age, experience, location, benefits, insurance etc.

[spiral bramble]

Where are you seeing this?

[stoic owl]

Screw c++ all back to assembly

[dapper flower]

Hi folks ! I’m 3D generalist from Ukraine and have been doing graphic design for about 3-4 years. I have good knowledge of unreal and blueprints, I also love hardsurf modeling in CAD or Blender. I'm very interested in automotive and aerospace rendering, but I can't find any information or tutorials on the subject of car rendering, only that seems a little different to me. Has anyone seen any hardsurf or spaceship tutorials in UE 4 or 5? All the best ✌️

[pure kettle]

Also please do not crosspost unless redirected.

[amber crane]

Hi guys,

Am I able to link a job I just posted on the forums?

[serene crystal]

#instructions

[amber crane]

Thanks

[pastel estuary]

any industry using the engine

[plucky hatch]

All

[plucky hatch]

I know a lot of people who can use Unity and UE5 but no idea how to make game assets outside of the game engine, I wonder if it would be worth making a discord group to personally train a handful of amatures and make an indie game

[red magnet]

Does anyone have idea of average salary for level designer with about 5 years experience in Canada ? I check glassdoor and similar but may be someone has more concrete numbers.

I have seen average being around 60000, 2 persons in Canada told me with some experience should be around 80000. So some extra inputs would be nice

Talking in CAD

[plucky hatch]

its much lower

jk

its like a little bit lower than that

id shave off 15%

at least it's better than US

[craggy nacelle]

This probably depends on location as well, Vancouver is probably higher than in some other places

[plucky hatch]

this is cause its equated to cost of living

[red magnet]

I'm looking at quebec right now

When you say lower, you talk about the 60 or 80 thousands?

[plucky hatch]

Who is making game assets ‘inside’ of Unreal, surely that’s many times harder than building in any actual 3D modeling software.

[chilly sundial]

tbf i think its better if they find it out for themselves

training is all good if you are good at what you're preaching

[rotund nymph]

Having a call with a recruiter in a couple hours, it's a C++ Unreal Engine job but the company/game is not specificed. Any advice? 😄 I've been working with Unreal in various areas but not professionaly for a couple years (I work as a webdev)

[steady pewter]

If you know UE C++ you have nothing to worry about ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[rotund nymph]

What worries me is that the recruiter probs knows nothing on programming (it is an external agency) so idk what they will make an impression with

[steady pewter]

You think they won't need an UE C++ dev? But you said the position is about that.

[rotund nymph]

Yes, I mean that the recruiter is not from the company

[steady pewter]

How bad a recruiter should be to search for a person whose main task is fake?!

[plucky hatch]

They will have been briefed by the client it’s not unusual for recruiters to not work in the actual field.

They will just be screening you before passing you onto an actual dev manager later most likely.

[rotund nymph]

Yep, that is my expectation

[plucky hatch]

So I would not worry then, just have all your notes ready and be polite.

[rotund nymph]

yep, thanks for the encouragement:)

[rotund nymph]

lol

[tidal moth]

It worries me when recruiters ask probing questions they don't know the answers to

[regal rover]

Yes, if they are that lazy to use a recruiter who doesn't understand the basics of what they are looking for ... you've come out ahead. That kind of company is a nightmare and would be headache city.

[timid umbra]

As I’m looking for my first junior developer position, I’ve gotten a lot of phone interviews lined up and I have a few questions for those with experience. What is a recruiter looking for out of a phone interview for a junior developer position? Are there any good resources anyone can recommend for preparing for the types of questions I should expect? Would it be a good idea to go through the job description and gather up some of my projects that demonstrate the skills the job requires for sharing over screen share during the call?

Specifically curious about the gathering up projects bit

[timid umbra]

Also, one of the companies is hiring multiple roles I qualify for but I've only applied to one. Would it be appropriate in the interview to mention that I'd be interested in any of these other roles as well?

[craggy nacelle]

Probably yes. The point of these interviews is to show that you can do the work, that you tick the boxes. So anything you can show and say that reinforces the fact that you have the skills they're asking for is good.

[covert gulch]

I'd suggest making a demo reel of stuff you've already made on your own time, give them an experience and make sure to lead the interview process

[covert gulch]

Express you have interest in gaining experience in areas across the board and are open to placement advisement based on your applicable skillset

[timid umbra]

At what point should I express this? At the start seems good, it would give the interviewer opportunity to ask different questions based on that information, but also when he asks if I have any questions for him feels more appropriate

[proud spear]

I would start off with it when you introduce yourself, just don’t sound like you are desperate and you’ll be fine.

[craggy nacelle]

Yeah they'd probably let you talk about your background and such, which would be a good segue to connecting your background and skills to the role you're applying to, and mentioning the others as well

Early in conversation would be good as it would allow them to adjust if they need to, but it's not the end of the world if you don't have a good opportunity to mention it until later either

[covert gulch]

nomy is right, don’t try to over sell, when you feel you’ve gone too far remember to pivot with a question about the development, their team or the company in general, but you should have questions pre-loaded that you do wish to have answered slotted in those scenarios

If it’s a start up, great questions can surround funding, milestones, and will it be completed, and if so, how they plan to get to the finish line

[worthy kettle]

Guys I would want to use Unreal engine for my final degree project. Initially I wanted to do a research for virtual reality in unreal engine, but I don't know if it's a good or a bad idea, what do you think?

[pastel estuary]

depends on if you already have unreal engine experience, and how much time you'll have.

[worthy kettle]

For the experience part I know little, thats why I want to do the project, to force myself to learn UE because I think it's a good engine, I know how to create some basic landscape, basic editor stuff, etc... For the time, I have until june 2023

A little bit of blueprint knowledge too

But very basic

[pastel estuary]

with a proper plan, a year will give you enough time. especially if you know how to do research.

[worthy kettle]

And do you think VR is a good subject? Or do you think there is something that would be more cool to investigate for a newbie?

[pastel estuary]

i dont know, that depends on where you want to go with the research.

[meager dune]

Is there a carrier here?

Hello?

Don't see a job in coding. It's kinda worthless having to use so many crutches

[steady pewter]

Wut

[chilly sundial]

a carrier?

what are you an about

crutches?

[timid umbra]

@craggy nacelle @covert gulch @proud spear Thank you all for the advice, I really appreciate it

[pure kettle]

Likely locomotion disability

[viral elm]

Hello, so I've a couple of questions if anyone has the time to answer. Especially if you've either worked in the industry or are currently employed (everyone's input is welcome of course).

So if you're trying to get a job as a game dev (programmer or artist). Is there any value to adding stuff from UGC platforms to your portfolio. Like games or levels you've made in things like Roblox, Dreams, Core e.t.c. Would you be able to get a job if work like that made up the bulk of your portfolio and some additional regular stuff like Unreal/Unity and your standard DCC apps?

[still nymph]

It's always nice to include stuff like that. How prominent you make it on your portfolio depends on the position youre applying for. If youre applying to be a game designer then you can very reasonably get a job just by having games youve made on those platforms.

[viral elm]

Well IDK bout designer. I'm trying to focus on programmer or artist. I started learning game dev on my own as a solo dev so I picked up a bit of everything. But I think If I were to get a job it would either be gameplay programmer or env. artist. At least that's what I would prefer.

So in the context of programmer should I throw in some of the games I've made in platforms like that along-side any Unreal games 🤔

Add on question 😅 I always have trouble with scope and putting stuff together using regular engines like unreal and unity. Having complete freedom pushes me to try bigger stuff and I end up with a bunch of incomplete prototypes and what not.

What exactly is the average scope of your typical portfolio piece? On a scale of hyper-casual mobile endless runner style game to AAA production (yeah probably not that XD)

[still nymph]

If youre going for programming, then having actual code will be more preferable than not, but that still depends on the job. You can find plenty of postings for "Gameplay Programmer", but they are just looking for someone who can implement gameplay through Blueprints. For programming, it can be really attractive to share your code/blueprints/project through Github or something similar.

The same goes for environment artist. Many environment artist roles will need you to model, texture, implement in engine, so having a portfolio demonstrating the full pipeline is preferable. However, there are plenty of environment artist roles that are 99% setdressing and kitbashing, so having a portfolio of well executed environments even if you made none of the individual pieces can be good enough to get you a job.

[still nymph]

I cant really speak for scope. I think having something to show that is fairly finished is attractive. The broader project can be very barebones, but if you have a feature that is well done you can still benefit from showing it. Generally I think its more important to avoid obvious tutorial work. People want you to be able to think and solve problems. Take what youve learned, make it your own, and share that.

[viral elm]

Define "actual code"? And yeah I get that. Maybe I was a bit unclear 😅 Really I meant stuff like this in addition to the standard stuff. My UGC games are solo made. I wrote all the code and stuff. I have pretty strong skills in Python and Lua from school and UGC. And C# from Unity. Trying to improve C++ with Unreal and get used to the Unreal C++ workflow which is a bit different compared to normal cpp.

Ofcourse blueprints as well

As for art. I can model and sculpt in blender, texture with painter and designer

[ashen lynx]

Is there any value to adding stuff from UGC platforms to your portfolio TLDR version: No. But could be mentioned during interview and potentially beneficial. @viral elm

[viral elm]

So I did work on the traditional skills. But I haven't made much "finished" work with them yet. I did however make more complete work in things like Core e.t.c so was just wandering if that would help out

[still nymph]

Actual code as in something made with a language as opposed to visual scripting. Either way, its attractive to show games youve made any way youve made them. Of course if a job description says that you will be working in C++, they want to see that clearly before visual scripting, but knowing that you care about making gameplay is attractive in any case

[viral elm]

Hummm none at all 😶

[viral elm]

Ahhh ok ok. Yeah I can certainly write traditional code. Outside of Unreal's BP I write actual code in normal languages. It's only just now I'm also trying to get more familiar with the Unreal + CPP workflow

[still nymph]

I'd just say to find some job descriptions of jobs youd like and work on that. Game development is very broad with a lot of disciplines and requirements going on. To say "TLDR No" that it shouldnt be included really doesnt give much scope. For programming, youre better off actually making your own work, sure. For game design, lead designers at AAA studios will tell you that platforms like Roblox, Core, modding in games is the easiest way to get your ideas materialized, make a portfolio, and land a job. It all depends what youre doing so read the descriptions of what you want to do and act accordingly

[covert gulch]

It's a great subject, honestly if you take the time to go over the basics, you can have a solution ready before the next month is out.
40 hours on project you'd have a decent demo to showcase after some serious learning sessions.
I've made a very nice career out of the VR space, and right now Meta is hiring like crazy to fill the content hurdle, if you get your stuff in order you might just land yourself a very well paying job. Just keep at it, and remember it's about the journey not the end goal in most cases, you learn a lot in application.

I will say this though, if you get into the VR space, do not focus on making games, that is not where the money is.

[worthy kettle]

Thanks a lot! Well right now I would only do a videogame to test the VR in unreal since I am not that great yet on it, but I will go for it then!

[proud spear]

Do you know of any other companies besides Meta who are full of cash and plowing through the VR space?

[covert gulch]

Mostly private companies

[plucky hatch]

There are many, but it’s Enterprise VR for the most part not gaming.

[stuck holly]

If I want to apply for a C++ gameplay position, is it a good idea to do some leetcode as preparation?
Are games companies also putting as much importance on this type of interview questions as the rest of the sw industry?

[flat yarrow]

hi everyone, i'm looking for freelance work using UE4 any good platforms you would recommend to look for work ? thanks !

[regal shale]

Hi everyone, I'm looking to start a career as a technical artist but don't really know where to begin. Do y'all have any recommendations on education programs or the like? I currently have a BS in computer science and have some experience with building games in UE.

[ashen lynx]

There is no education program that can make you a technical artist. Try various parts of art (Environmental, Material, Character, Props, UI) and find what you like( or at least exclude what you dislike). Practice it to a more or less competitive level and while doing so, get on the technical side of things. If you have the mindset, the progression will happen naturally.

[regal shale]

Gotcha. I'm pretty advanced in the technical side of things but less on the art side. Would Vertex School be a recommendation?

I'm also really good at being a jack if all trades,master of none kind of thing

[ashen lynx]

So far, from personal observations, most versed technical artists come with artistic background. Techies that went artistic are relative rare.

Vertex School Have no clue what that would be.

[regal shale]

https://www.vertexschool.com/

[ashen lynx]

You need to ask someone more junior about specific art related programs worth taking. The list of material I can personally vouch for is decade old.

[regal shale]

Ok. I appreciate the feedback.

[steel creek]

Dave School, Full Sail, Ringling and Gnomon. I went DS after my CSE and have been a TA/TD in vfx 20 years.

if you are a jack of all trades, it is what we look to hire.

[regal shale]

Cool. Thank you for the advice!

[regal shale]

Where exactly do you work?

[mental token]

Hello , I just started learning unreal engine , i can code in cpp and bps (somewhere between beginner to intermediate level , more close to beginner tho) , i am a grad student majoring in electronics , i really want to work in the unreal engine space for my career , I am constantly learning and improving my skills (cpp and bps) and working on personal projects (locomotion , npc system).

1. Is working on personal projects and posting the progress on twitter , discord enough or I need to do more to get seen (and any more tips to get seen) ?
2. Should I focus more on Data Structure and Algos courses with C++ to get better chances ? (both at usual software dev job and unreal dev job)
3. Being based in India i have very limited opportunites , at what skill level and in what areas specifically , are most remote opportunities present ( keeping in mind my location ) ?

I am ready to work hard in limited free time I get , please pardon my writing skills 🙏 (I have to work on that too)

[pastel estuary]

your writing seems fine.
im no coder but:

1. posting on social media is always good for networking, helping others solving issues as well, as it will make them remember your name when someone mentions they are looking for a coder. so def. show off your work, and network in any way possible. (when you have the time)
2. no clue, i couldnt code if my life depended on it.
3. with the interwebs how it is, as long as you are polite and professional you shouldnt have much trouble finding work, once you feel comfortable enough to look for it. you can always mention your experience and interests, and see if an offer aligns with your interests.

[round radish]

2. A lot of the first sort of c++ questions you'll get are "How does this search algorithm work?"

or sorting algorithm, etc.

[crystal wing]

Hey guys do anyone know if its possible to save moving images (gifs) into a pdf file while showing the moving frames in pdf ?

[round radish]

Sometimes people just have a passion, Lorash.

They'll make it work, damn it, or starve trying.

[chilly sundial]

Well i guess a position has opened somewhere for someone thats good at weird hacks with pdfs

[pure kettle]

I guess that's an equivalent of making Harry Potter moving image newspapers

[chilly sundial]

now i could see a market for that

mainly advertising but still

[cold sigil]

Hey is anyone here currently working as a game dev thats willing to have an open chat? I’m looking at getting into the industry and I wondered if anyone has any good advice

[north plover]

throw a lot of applications out and hope, like for any other job as well 🤷 if you can have a foot in the door somehow would be nice but in the end it all comes down to the right time and a good application (how the application looks like probably counts most for any kind of artist).

[cold sigil]

I currently work as a full stack web dev so id probably be going for a programmer kinda role.

[north plover]

my best advice is, not to have so much hope for a specific position, it will just demoralize you if you don't get the job.

[cold sigil]

I was just wondering what kind of responsibilities that would entail being a game programmer (I know this is a very company specific question).

[round radish]

Knowledge of UE (if you're looking at UE-based jobs)?

[north plover]

then you might want to link your github profile and list your experience. But in the end it all depends on your skill, if you come closer to the actual interviews etc. It's already quite hard to even find junior positions.

[round radish]

The methods and such that are used in the games industry

[cold sigil]

Yeah it would definitely be UE based job, iv been doing some solo projects in my spare time for around 2 years

[north plover]

I don't think there is a lot of distinction about programmer and game programmer. You will probably find a lot more performance related things.

[cold sigil]

I noticed this 😭 I think I’ll probs just go for non junior jobs and just hope my current experience will help

[cold sigil]

Ohhh like being able to use profiling tools etc

[north plover]

if there is nothing in the applications job title indicating the level, there are chances that it even is a junior position or they are searching for something around junior to intermediate. But a lot of companies don't really like to provide entry level positions.

[north plover]

rather questions in the interviews are more focused on some performance things even tho that usually doesn't even matter that much in your day to day work.

[cold sigil]

It’s completely understandable from the business point of view, like the company obviously doesn’t want to be paying someone who’s not immediately going to be contributing

Out of curiosity what would be expected of a junior level programmer using unreal??

[north plover]

sure, the reasons are clear. Especially in an industry where you have to nail your release date that much. It's still very unfortunate for talented people out there not finding a job because of this hard filter. But it's also not the only industry that happens far too much.

[north plover]

That hardly depends on the company. I would say you should know basic c++ and basic UE stuff. You should at least be able to make some little game on your own, like a flappy bird or so. (Just the gameplay mechanics). I would also expect some vector algebra. That's pretty much what you are up to on your day to day work.

[cold sigil]

Okay thank you! That’s really helpful, I think I have this side of it down. It’s just going to be really hard to find any vacancies in my area

[cold sigil]

Yeah definitely, I think eventually it’s gonna but a point where there isn’t enough junior roles giving people the opportunity to progress into the intermediate roles so there’s going to be a huge lack in experienced workers

[north plover]

which is already the case. We have an artificial shortage because there are not enough people finding entry level jobs. They go into other industries where they find a job quite fast, get paid better and have better work-life balance without the best chance to get the same later in their careers in the gaming industry. Because if you are from outside of the gaming industry it's also quite hard to find a job.

[craggy nacelle]

I'd like to work in games and given my background I probably could, but majority of the interesting jobs still require you to move somewhere else and can't be arsed. Plus it would probably pay worse, which is also a big no thanks :P

[cold sigil]

Yeahhhh, but I’ve seen quite a few remote jobs for programmers as well which is definitely going to help the industry as people won’t need to relocate their families just for a job

[craggy nacelle]

I've been working remotely almost for a decade now :P

I've met some of my coworkers at my current job I think two times IRL in 8 years I've been there lol

[tidal moth]

that may have been true pre corona, but nowadays remote work is a pretty solid option

[craggy nacelle]

Probably moreso than before but at least the couple things I glanced at out of curiosity all said you gotta be in country at the very least :P

[tidal moth]

I know of several places that don't require you to be in that situation whatsoever, they only ask to be in similar time zones

[craggy nacelle]

Which also has a tendency of ruling out a lot of them since I'm in europe and a lot of them are not :D

[tidal moth]

there's a lot of game dev in europe. I don't think it's excluding anything really. but if you don't want to, no pressure

[craggy nacelle]

Yeah I'm not really actively looking because as said the pay is going to be shit in comparison to anything else i could do lol

[plush ledge]

Hi. I don't know if it's the right place for that but I've got a question. I've been working on gamedev for 1.5 years now and it's been a few months since I switched to UE from Unity. I'm still undergraduated in Astronautical Engineering but I spend most of my time to work on UE5. I will be a gamedev, not an engineer and I plan my future on that decision. I apply freelance job posts on Upwork but I've got no experience at all. So that I haven't been recruited yet. I need money and more important that I need experience. I also really want to get to know the pleasure to work in a job that I've always dreamt of.. I write in cover letters that I can work hard and learn stuff fast etc. but still no recruitment for me. If anyone who walked the same path in the past just as I'm walking right now, I'd be very happy to hear your suggestions or anything you say.

[plucky hatch]

iLLOGIKA is looking for a 3D environment & level artist to join our team on the development of our next PC/Console game, which is based on a movie franchise. The candidate will work closely with the Lead Artist in order to create the level art of the game.

Description
• Model indoor/outdoor environments, sets and props;
• Integrate all assets in the different levels of the game, ‘dress’ each level and environment according to the gameplay and art direction;
• Collaborate with the lead artist and the level designers, offer solutions with the rest of the team;
• Create textures;
• Optimize 3D models as needed;
• Respect the artistic direction of the projects and work with the established pipeline;
• Estimate the work to be done;
• Participate in meetings with the development team and the client.

Experience for the position
• At least 5 years of experience in the game industry in 3D modeling and a significant experience in level art (shown in portfolio);
• Good knowledge in lighting, shading, baking;
• Good knowledge of Unreal 4 and a previous experience with this engine;
• Great knowledge of 3D software (3DsMax or Maya);
• Knowledge of Blender, Zbrush or Substance Painter is a plus;
• Show polyvalent and versatile skills, capable of brainstorming and opened to new ideas;
• Great relationship skills, organization and autonomy;

this is what im looking to do

I have learned quite of a bit of these areas in my college degree which touches these subjects

but its not specific to video games

I assume I might need several more years of practice

[oblique ice]

#instructions

[plucky hatch]

hell yeah bro

I could even take some jobs here when I get good enough

[green oyster]

well if they say 5 years then yeah, try after at least 2-3 at a studio

truth be told also depends on how much did you learn, and portfolio you have. I think if you're dedicated enough you'd have no problems even if just starting out

quite a number of people at my former studio that had little actual experience but dedication and self learned skills to manage the tasks they had to do

[misty knot]

Been accepted into the game design college I talked about a while back in here

I'll let you all know what it's like when I'm there 😎

[pastel estuary]

ooh, congrats!

[misty knot]

Thanks!

[supple osprey]

Is there some one from Serbia that is mid lvl with blueprints, C++ ?

[spice dagger]

@supple osprey If you are looking to recruit people for your Project please use the Job Board.

Please read the #instructions channel for further information.

This is not the channel to recruit in.

[supple osprey]

Thank you, will do.

[plucky hatch]

i talked to a business guy yesterday

and told him aboutmy game dev hobby

and he said "its really hard to make something you love into a business"

he could not have been more true about that.

explains why 7?8? years later ive got nothing "complete"

project wise

[safe fjord]

I bet you've got enough to make a proper reel though!

[plucky hatch]

heh. maybe. if i didnt delete stuff

theres no way no method no magic pill to "fix" this

[safe fjord]

Without getting to deep into it, finding the will to remain positive is the biggest healing hack, in my experience. If you keep at it, eventually it will come to you. Plus, most everyone loves a comeback story!

[plucky hatch]

Chalk.that all up to... 2 much coffee and not enough sleep and a moment of weakness... i had a meltdown but im bettter now

[rotund nymph]

nice

I am quite sure to persue gamedev stuff as my next job but I don't want to end up in a horrible place. And I am specially interested in doing specialized stuff, not just the "code logic and be productive" stuff

[mystic cloud]

@plucky hatch why/how did you end up in game dev?

[rotund nymph]

amazing

ye, that is my fear

xD

[mystic cloud]

I also stopped giving fuck about general codebase when freelancing

Did they survive after you left

Losing a lead looks like a trouble

[rotund nymph]

being in a management position is horrible for me, I'd want to help my team but probs wouldn't really be able for reasons

being in the middle of team and management can be painful I think

[stuck holly]

How did you start freelancing or more precisely how did you find your first clients considering you didn't have any prior professional experience in gamedev? Also, how many years of experience (I suppose non professional / hobby) did you have at that point?

[gray trout]

#freelance-jobs

[urban night]

thanks! it says im unable to post there. any tips how i can do that?

[plucky hatch]

how hard is it to get a job as a 3D environment designer?

[mystic cloud]

Arent you doing game dev now

[steady pewter]

It was all lies over #cpp

[woeful iron]

I guess that's the "indie" part they described

[tidal moth]

considering that such a job title is hard to come by, probably pretty hard. what is it that you would want to be doing?

[proud spear]

How many hours a month would count as having experience in something? Like if I spent 1 hour everyday using python, does that mean after a month I can say I have “1 month experience “?

[steady pewter]

Nobody gonna check on that. So yeah, you can say that. Interviews will prove how useful was that month.

[proud spear]

I suppose so, yeah

[steady pewter]

I have seen so many people over-present themselves that whatever you say is still a sus. It depends on what you have been able to do with Python.

[plucky hatch]

like making 3D models in maya , making textures , designing outside and inside environments etc,,,

[tidal moth]

if you do art you generally don't do design, and vice versa

unless it's archviz or some such

[tidal moth]

usually only professional experience is counted, but it may be different per industry

[plucky hatch]

Im not good at drawing

im more technical

[tidal moth]

yes, environment artist

[plucky hatch]

yup

I really like it

and Im planning to make my own game this summer

the game will be on an island

[tidal moth]

just to be clear you said environment designer, which isn't a thing in games

[plucky hatch]

oh ok so the real name of the position would be envrionment artist

[tidal moth]

yes

[plucky hatch]

ok so you think people need to be good at drawing?

[tidal moth]

no.

[plucky hatch]

exactly

[tidal moth]

but your role is with art, not design

those are two different departments with different agendas

[plucky hatch]

I have alot of experience with Maya

and photoshop

but I think I need to look into zbrush

[tidal moth]

now for your question: environment art is one of the harder roles to get into simply because the bar is set so high

[plucky hatch]

fk

even for indie compagnies?

like what would be the easiest role to get into?

I have 2 years of QA testing experience but that doesnt pay very well

[tidal moth]

it may be easier to make it in indies, but the market for env art isn't the greatest

[tidal moth]

the role you actually want to do

no point in trying to get into a role you hate from day 1

[plucky hatch]

why

why is the market not the greatest

[tidal moth]

a lot of junior applicants, not a lot of junior positions. even people with some industry experience are struggling

[plucky hatch]

damnnn

so is programming easier to get into?

[tidal moth]

potentially. but you're equally up against some really good people

though like I said if it's not what you want to do I wouldn't consider it

[green oyster]

Zbrush, substance painter and designer

[normal ember]

Even development is difficult to find work in. You have to have both incredible skills and luck. I did my own games for a few years and worked contract as well but when I tried applying for full time positions no one would take me

Other software is far easier to get into. Game software is very competitive it seems, even in comparison with other fields

[shut token]

Because everyone and their sister wants to do it. So it is a highly attractive field. People like abuse to work on their passion I guess.

[plucky hatch]

QA tester also an other option

[zenith kestrel]

QA is the doorway. To many overlook it.

3D is more then just games. So while environment artist is a nice title. There are lots of other jobs to look at too.

[plucky hatch]

you're right man

I did 2 years of QA testing in a 3rd party company

and I fell in love

but I had no college degree

so I went back to college and ima graduate next year

my program is not game specific but we touched on game design in Unreal and unity , did alot of programming , substance designer , web dev, and UX design

etc...

maybe if I try to get a QA job in a real game company while I work on my portfolio on the side that would a great way to put your foot in the industry

[serene crystal]

Got a job 😎

Thanks to all the helpful people here who helped me learn stuff

[steady pewter]

Next: Family.

[wary idol]

Mission: failed

[oblique ice]

good job 🙂

[stoic owl]

Mission failed we'll get them next time

[stoic owl]

Except bonding atoms

[plucky hatch]

what title?

[tidal moth]

a job title, presumably 😎

[plucky hatch]

Splitting atoms*

Any of you guys/gals consider going into business for yourself in game dev?

Honestly i feel like it's the best option if you're looking to make a living in this industry

[pure kettle]

Probably, but fail rate is also quite high, backup plan is advised

[plucky hatch]

I don't I hear a lot of people making money with this

If you have got the skills and the willpower

But there are so many hats to wear

Also why are you so negative

Being negative is not being realistic and being negative is not being an adult

[chilly sundial]

yeah its not being negative its numbers

the fact is most fail to get noticed

unfortunately the truth hurts

[plucky hatch]

Prove it

Prove it

[chilly sundial]

https://indiegamehaven.com/how-many-indie-games-are-successful/

70% of all indie games are commercial failures. Of the 30% that are considered successful, only 7% of those games will generate enough revenue to fund a second project.

https://vginsights.com/insights/article/infographic-indie-game-revenues-on-steam

[pure kettle]

Not being negative, just preparing for the worst

Having backup plans certainly won't hurt

Even if it does sucks sometimes

[pure kettle]

Too much optimism and you're preparing yourself for homelessness, minus the survival skill

[oblique ice]

Yes It's hard accept but, most the time is not success 😕

[pure kettle]

Be pessimistic and you'll still disappointed, but not as worse as getting too optimistic

[plucky hatch]

You ppl paint such a rosy picture

[chilly sundial]

FWIW going into any business with no backup is a bad idea

we paint the truth

that we make games cause its fun

[plucky hatch]

Doubt

[chilly sundial]

no point disillusioning yourself with dreams of lots of wealth

cause inless you lucky af it aint gonna happen

[pure kettle]

Hard to reject the truth at first, I've been there

[chilly sundial]

yeah i understand why you dont wanna accept the truth of it

its painful

[pure kettle]

Painting false optimism is much worse in the long term

[plucky hatch]

Its almost not worth engaging with you given said negativity

[chilly sundial]

if it was that easy to make a living off we would all be living comfortably off our games

again you confuse negativity with truth

[plucky hatch]

I aint confused lol

[chilly sundial]

if you dont believe the actual revenue figures from steam themselves, then there aint no helpin ya

https://tenor.com/view/this-is-fine-gif-24177057

[plucky hatch]

Lol

Youve made so many assumptions

[pure kettle]

Not assumptions, just life truth.
It's even more difficult to be idealistic about gamedev outside of NA and major EU countries

[plucky hatch]

7% make enough to fund another project, is that right? So theres a chance

[royal lintel]

There's a chance for literally anything.

That doesn't mean its a good idea.

The game industry is a shit place to be if you want to make money. Especially if you're independent. This is generally well accepted by people who actually work in the industry.

[chilly sundial]

oh yes theres a chance

[plucky hatch]

Ouch

[chilly sundial]

but theres a 93% chance there isnt gonna be enough money

[plucky hatch]

More asaumptions

[royal lintel]

If you're making good money you're generally very lucky and worked very hard for it.

[chilly sundial]

its a fitting analogy

[royal lintel]

What lorash said is what many successful indies ended up doing. Some were successful, you don't generally hear about the ones that weren't.

[pure kettle]

We're not a get rich quick salesmen.

[plucky hatch]

Nobody ever said you were

[royal lintel]

You're the one that asked whether working independently was a good way to make a living. And the general answer is hell no.
If you don't like the answer why did you ask the question?

[pure kettle]

If you want to have optimistic but unrealistic view, you might as well giving up to get rich quick MLM preacher.

Which we aren't. Hence the grim but truthful answers

[plucky hatch]

No. What i asked was whether any of you had considered the option of going into business for yourself

[royal lintel]

And plenty of us have.

But most people don't without a backup plan.

Which is exactly what you've now been told multiple times.

[pure kettle]

For context, I said this first

Probably, but fail rate is also quite high, backup plan is advised

[chilly sundial]

genuine question that i have two, you asked a question we gave you the answer and evidence when you didnt believe it, and then you still say its not true we are just negative nancy's

[plucky hatch]

So dont twist my words

[royal lintel]

I'm not twisting your words.

[plucky hatch]

Yes you are

[royal lintel]

At this point you're just arguing with people answering your question because you want to argue.

[chilly sundial]

i have just posted what you said

[plucky hatch]

Thx

[royal lintel]

You received perfectly good answers and then decided to be argumentative.

[chilly sundial]

you said you feel its the best option in the industry

which it isnt

siliex is right

[plucky hatch]

Im sorry, whats wrong witha healthy discussion?

[royal lintel]

saying "prove it" over and over again is not a healthy discussion

[chilly sundial]

it wasnt healthy discussion it was more akin to your putting your fingers in your ears and going "LALALA"

a healthy discussion is where you provide counter arguements

[pure kettle]

American healthcare joke flew over my head 🥴

[chilly sundial]

damn it

got me there

[plucky hatch]

HAHAHA OMG so providing evidence is unhealthy discussion? Christ. Are we to rely on moral arguments and opinions like some mideval court?

[pure kettle]

🤯

[chilly sundial]

you didnt provide evidence

no sources

[royal lintel]

You want proof for people's personal experience?

[chilly sundial]

you just said prove it, and then refuted the evidence with no reason

did you forget we can scroll up?

[plucky hatch]

I am literallt typing this on my phone while at work. Give me a break

[royal lintel]

A phone doesn't make you argumentative.

[chilly sundial]

^

[pure kettle]

Don't talk to discord while you're working either, unless you have nothing better to do for the day

[royal lintel]

me_irl

[plucky hatch]

@royal lintel you are the mosr riduculous person talkimg

[chilly sundial]

if this were the case you could have said "at work rn, although would like to discuss this later when i can provide some sources for my claims"

[plucky hatch]

Dont try and gatekeep me.

[chilly sundial]

that doesnt mean what you think it does

[plucky hatch]

Ok w/e bud

[pure kettle]

(not exactly the same word, but same attitude)

[plucky hatch]

yall are so confused

[chilly sundial]

if you would like to reiterate your points, and explain your meaning we will be happy to have a healthy discussion

[plucky hatch]

First off. How was this metric regarding game business successes found? What is the time frame? All time? 5 years? 10?

[chilly sundial]

these metrics i imagine are lifetime

[wary idol]

Can we end this?
It isn't going anywhere

[plucky hatch]

Thatd be nice. Ive been nothing but respectful but have received nothing in kind

[chilly sundial]

plus i imagine this number will only go up as game making gets more accessible

[plucky hatch]

Toxic

[chilly sundial]

i cannot grammar today i stg

[plucky hatch]

Nobody has answered my interrogative

[chilly sundial]

my sources were lifetime over 21,000 games

[pure kettle]

Final reminder of the convo starter
(and yes I slept far too early today)

[plucky hatch]

The first actricle link provided by brother -1 cites some statistic about game successes yet provides ZERO source of study for said metric. May as well have pulled it out of a hat

[chilly sundial]

i will admit the first article is lacking sources, but the second one proves their point

[plucky hatch]

The first two words in that im not sure their origin. Was using google t2t to write it. I meant to say "i hear a lot of people making money with it"

Which is an anecdote but i stand by it

From my own personal experience

[chilly sundial]

again you tend not to hear about the people that dont do well, if you heard about their games then they wouldnt be a faliure

you only hear about success because that's the nature of it

[royal lintel]

If you want anecdotes just browse /r/gamedev for a few days. There are numerous posts from people who have failed. And that's just people self-reporting.

[chilly sundial]

plsu few devs wants to shout from their rooftop "MY GAME MADE 0 SALES THIS YEAR!"

[plucky hatch]

But your source cites the failure and the success rate. So we do know the rates.

[royal lintel]

No one can truly know the rates.

Any estimate of failure is going to severely under report.

Just from the nature of it - successes are easy to find because they're visible.

[plucky hatch]

That is the nature of reality and statistics

[royal lintel]

Failures aren't because many won't even release a product.

[chilly sundial]

the reason you hear about people liek bill gates that turned something small into something massive, but not the thousands of startups that fail each year, is because they failed

[royal lintel]

I'm not making some big philosophical argument that you can't truly know the exact rate.

[pure kettle]

Silicon Valley had so many clowns yet barely anyone talked about it

[royal lintel]

I'm saying that any statistic on failure rates is going to look better than the actual number.

[plucky hatch]

Then its not really a sales failure then is it?

[pure kettle]

Not literal clowns, but...

[royal lintel]

It's a failure if you put 2 years of your time and money into a project and have to bow out because you need to put food on your table.

If all you care about is released games then go look up statistics on steam or something.

[chilly sundial]

if you aim to make a commercial project, and invest in it, and it doesnt even ship, then yes that is a faliure

[royal lintel]

But that's not a realistic estimate of how many people succeed.

[plucky hatch]

Right. But were talking released games here. As per sources cited.

[tidal moth]

prove it

[chilly sundial]

i mean hell even the steam stats i linked arent rosy

[royal lintel]

Your original question said nothing about released games.

[chilly sundial]

cause a lot of it will be poorly made games

and poorly marketed ones

[royal lintel]

And again, even if you look at released games just look at steam sales charts.

[chilly sundial]

but there are also a lot fo really great games that never get noticed

[plucky hatch]

Context my friend. The two articles provided by brother -1 were about games that released

[royal lintel]

I'm not talking about those articles.

I'm talking about your original question.

[plucky hatch]

Well i am

(Just to clarify)

[chilly sundial]

but even then, if the metric of released games isnt good at all, then the faliure rate can only get higher with the games that dont release

cause the ones that dont release, can never be successful

[plucky hatch]

Truth

[chilly sundial]

i mean sure you can make money from it, but you can also make money from the lottery, or finding a millionaires credit card

the chances are you wont

and we arent saying dont try

we are saying dont try without a backup plan

cause that way if it doesnt work out you've only wasted your time, but still gained a bit of experience

[royal lintel]

Indie dev would be SMB, yes.

[pure kettle]

Which goes back to my quote

Probably, but fail rate is also quite high, backup plan is advised

[plucky hatch]

20% + 50% = 70% fyi

[chilly sundial]

ah oky thanks

i forgot maths

[royal lintel]

That's not how statistics works.

And per those statistics, you need enough to live on for 5 years to even have a 50% chance of surviving that long.

Corrected because it's 50% chance of the business existing, not of succeeding.

[plucky hatch]

Which is why you dont silo for five years

[tidal moth]

https://tenor.com/view/big-shaq-mans-not-hot-math-gif-10285836

[royal lintel]

That's not really how you read these sorts of statistics. 50% of people who made it to year 5 will fail.
Stopping earlier doesn't give you a better chance because you're probably only stopping because you haven't succeeded yet.

If you've stopped you've failed, or you already succeeded. And 80% of people are not succeeding in indie dev in their first year.

Not to the point they can make a living at least.

[plucky hatch]

Im genuinely confused as to whatr you mean by this

[royal lintel]

I'm just as confused by "Which is why you dont silo for five years"
It's a nonsensical statement - it implies that stopping earlier gives you a better chance of success.

And if that's not what you're implying I don't understand the statement.

[pure kettle]

It's like saying Dream's chance of getting lucky drop increases over time, but I jest

[plucky hatch]

Silo in software dev is to keep a project "under wraps" and unreleased until just prior to launch

[royal lintel]

I thought silo was a misspelling of solo, my bad.

[plucky hatch]

Ci/cd a/b testing

[royal lintel]

I'm aware of what a "siloed" project is.

It still doesn't make sense in this context.

[plucky hatch]

💯

[plucky hatch]

It does. It means you dont launch for five years. You dont sell. Im saying you secure funding for said project ahead of time and get to market asap with an mvp or better

[cosmic trench]

Hey guys I got the following problem: I am being interviewed for a job. The people need a system implemented that would allow spells etc. to be selectable for characters
as part of the interview they want me to complete a test task. It happens to be implementing one ability.

The truth is - they got one programmer already and he's clearly struggling, so what I'm thinking is - there's a possibility that they're trying to get me to write example code so that they can avoid hiring me. How can I go through with this while also accounting for and eliminating this possibility?

[royal lintel]

I didn't say anything about not launching for 5 years.

I'm talking in terms of your business existing for 5 years.

[plucky hatch]

Thats what i meant by silo

[tidal moth]

it's unlikely they are going to steal your code verbatim

[pure kettle]

They're not going to steal the example code. If it works, chances are you're getting hired instead

[plucky hatch]

Yea. Why steal a one off exanple when you can have the whole goose?

[cosmic trench]

@tidal moth @pure kettle @plucky hatch maybe im just being overly cautious, I just hate to be a chump. They basically seem to not know how to do this, and it's kinda sketch to be told to do a part of the job you'd be hired to do essentially for free. I'm totally willing and all, it just worries me

[plucky hatch]

This is actually a really common practice.

[cosmic trench]

oh id be cool if it was some totally unrelated complex task. I know test tasks are a common thing its just that I didn't expect to be told to implement an actual feature they need in their codebase

[plucky hatch]

Its like homework. Demonstrates your ability.

[royal lintel]

Programming tests are common practice. Actual implementation of something needed by their team is not really that common and honestly a bit sketchy.

If it was implementation of something they already had that'd be fine.

[cosmic trench]

my thoughts exactly which is why I'm looking for a way to do this without giving them a step by step but also without insulting them

[plucky hatch]

I think this is a fair point

[cosmic trench]

i could obfuscate the code but thats basically a "fuck you" and rude as hell

plus they can't check coding practices in that scenario

[royal lintel]

If they want you to implement something actually useful to them then they should be paying you for your time.
Otherwise they shouldn't be asking you to build something they need.

[plucky hatch]

But its one script. If they take it.and dont hire ypu sue them. And file cease and desist. Its your right

[royal lintel]

"just sue them" is not an easy thing to do

and it costs time and money

[plucky hatch]

Small claims court

[cosmic trench]

Russia

[royal lintel]

Even if it was the US this is a concern you simply shouldn't have to deal with.

[plucky hatch]

If a dollar amount isn't worth a suit then why even bother caring?

[royal lintel]

Because if they're actually trying to hire then they should give an appropriate test. If they aren't willing to do so then they aren't someone you should waste your time with.

The goal is not to sue someone.

The goal is to not waste your time and get hired.

[cosmic trench]

@plucky hatch oh its like an easy ass job, im just trying not to accidentally make myself redundant. They just need an ability system implemented, which I can do using gameplayability feature plugin that Epic has

[plucky hatch]

Hea got 3 options. 1. Do the work, get hired, 2. Do the work dont get hired , have to sue, 3. Ask for an altnerative task

[cosmic trench]

well by system I really mean an abstract spell class with children that each have a different color or something that they can pick from

[plucky hatch]

If theyre struggling with something that easy theyre going to need you more than you do them.

[cosmic trench]

thanks, puts my mind at ease a little bit. They really don't seem to have too much experience but got money to hire, so I assume I can chalk up the sketchiness of it to just lack of experience of the manager

[royal lintel]

Agreed that an hour or two of work is fine. Everything else I said hinged on it being more work 😛

[cosmic trench]

I'll be going through with this and writing this thing for them, and if they rawfuck me in the end, It will just be a hard knock ill learn from

thanks a lot for letting me bounce this off you

❤️

[tidal moth]

(real engineers please do not apply)

[cosmic trench]

requiring a PHD
as a highschool dropout this hurts my soul

so many people just arbitrarily require a degree that isn't related at all

its been my experience when looking for jobs on Russian hiring websites that they just list "must have college education" with zero specificity. Just like, as a bonus or a prestige point ig

[plucky hatch]

A lot of the time it’s just to show you can commit to learning something at a high level, doesn’t really matter what it is, thankfully in the design side where I am it’s almost never required, I’ve only been asked once in 15 years.

[cosmic trench]

i suppose. Still though there are better ways. Hell, just the aforementioned test tasks are plenty sufficient. I'll code whatever arcane fuckery you want just dont ask to see my academic history lmao

[cosmic trench]

Oh yeah also - just a security question. They just gave me access to their repo, I scanned it with malwarebytes and it comes up clean. You reckon thats safe enough? There's some php shit bolted on the side, seems to be mostly server stuff but still

[plucky hatch]

I think the software industry has these whiteboard/aptitude tests because there are no formal tests or certifications to practice coding professionally

[pure kettle]

You can fire up a VM and access the repo that way. Though I highly doubt PHP code will cause harm to client side. (At least I think most of the malicious scripts are with JS)

[cosmic trench]

thanks 🙂

[cosmic trench]

oh no no no its all blueprints

oh jesus christ the whole project is built in BP

[errant oyster]

Evening !
Is there anyone can help with logo ? (Graphics Designer)please

[chilly sundial]

Not reaaaly the place for tjat

You could try in the job board

Or fiverr

[round radish]

I find paint is really good.

[rapid iron]

so I got my joining letter as a senior Unreal developer for a game title. This is my first gamdev job (last one was in simulation i.e VR).

What I am trying to understand is how is a senior Unreal Dev different from junior?

[round radish]

More pay, responsibility and expectation?

The ability to blame juniors?! 😄

[rapid iron]

perfect 😂

and yeah finally also my debut in the gaming industry

[rapid iron]

Pay yeah I agree.

But isnt the more repetitive work designated to juniors? First time so kinda confused.

[tidal moth]

you'll have more responsibility and likely expected faster turnaround times

it's no different than a senior position outside of the industry

[round radish]

Also likely to be expected to do better work.

[rapid iron]

oof kinda like my current VR job. On the bright side it wont be one man per project for me so yeah

[rapid iron]

expected that one.

So I dont lead any small teams ?

[plucky hatch]

Sometimes, it depends on the studio.
Generally Senior Dev/Designer means:
-Able to work on more than one project/task at a time
-Able to work self sufficient or with minimal input from a lead/chief designer/dev
-More experience (generally 3-6years in my experience)
-Higher Salary
-Able to turn tasks around faster
-Pass on working knowledge and experience to junior designers/devs

[rapid iron]

ok

1. single project mentioned in opening
   2)works for me
   3)yes
2. Kinda hard to make a conclusion

5)Been doing that in my current job too. so no probs there. There is a shortage of Unreal devs in our area so this might be why I made senior (23 btw).

[plucky hatch]

You can be working on one project, but that can be made up of hundreds of tasks. Senior generally means you can work on more than one thing at a time.

But yes, sometimes due to demand or in smaller companies you can become Senior much faster.

[rapid iron]

I see. So that does hold up in case of AAA as well.

[plucky hatch]

I would say the average where I have worked is about 5 years minimum.

[north plover]

you usually just get more tasks/bigger tasks per sprint, since it's expected that you are able to handle more workload in less time than a junior or intermediate.

[plucky hatch]

Yes

[north plover]

you pretty much do the work of multiple juniors at the same time, that's at least how it's thought about.

[rapid iron]

how taxing can I expect that to be? I currently in my VR job have all devs assigned to independent projects.

[rapid iron]

doesnt experience and knowledge count as well?

[plucky hatch]

Count for what ?

[north plover]

your experience and knowledge makes you do the tasks faster, better etc. That's pretty much what you are getting paid for.

[rapid iron]

I mean for stuff like being able to do cpp (which many refuse to do from what I have seen), engine knowledge, practices,etc.

[north plover]

it shouldn't be exhausting tbh. You shouldn't even really feel it, if you and your lead can estimate your possible workload.

[rapid iron]

current job is not well organized thats why the concern. Gave my notice a few weeks ago

[north plover]

if your team does most of the things in BP then your cpp experience doesn't count that much but maybe how to make BP's faster. (As a side note, if any programmer is refusing to work in cpp in UE, they would get fired if this would be up to me).

[north plover]

I wouldn't worry about it too much, you should have some onboarding time to get to know the project and in the early phase you will also not have full workload.

[rapid iron]

well, I am the only one who does use cpp in our current team so yeah. There are definitely pros plus we use 4 subsystems which are cpp exclusive. Simulation sector does not pay much attention to good practices sadly.

The new studio I am joining said they are looking into what can be shifted to cpp so that seems like that is gonna be my work for the next few months?

[north plover]

sounds already quite messy.

[rapid iron]

yeah already a little worried of alternate 6 day week

[plucky hatch]

Wow is that in your contract, good luck 💀

[north plover]

a lot of contracts I know of have some overtime regulations with compensation etc. 🤷

[rapid iron]

alternate 14 days mandatory and 12 optional leave vs no proper leave calender and no bank holidays is still a good choice 🤷‍♂️

[plucky hatch]

Oh overtime for sure, but I’ve never seen a 6 day week,

[rapid iron]

welcome to India

[plucky hatch]

Damn 😓

[rapid iron]

anything for more investment 🤦‍♂️

but at least I get a proper leave calaender vs last moment leave cancellation in the new job.

[north plover]

meanwhile I was looking for 4 day week positions 😄

[rapid iron]

still not qualified enough to get sustainable abroad yet sadly. 4 day is a goldmine ngl.

Will get there hopefully. 50+ rejections later and now in the industry so progress 😁

[north plover]

I actually am not sure how qualification standards across countries differ.

[rapid iron]

I mean why would someone hire me from overseas while there are equally or superior talent available nearby?

I have tried applying but everyone wants 3+ years and a shipped title. (1.5 years commercial Unreal and only worked on simulation apps only )

[north plover]

I didn't find anything good regarding 4 day week yet, but I wouldn't look for a job where I would have to work more than 5 days/week either.

[plucky hatch]

When we have hired from India it’s usually Visa + Portfolio required, but qualifications less so or not at all. However I know it’s hard/impossible to get a visa in the first place without qualifications.

[rapid iron]

I do have my passport so that is my lowest concern. It is more about getting in.

[plucky hatch]

That’s what I meant when I said Visa (ifs it’s Europe you would come to at least),

[rapid iron]

isnt UK giving priority to India now?

[plucky hatch]

I left the UK years ago, but I’m pretty sure that’s not the case after Brexit. The border is tighter than its ever been.

[rapid iron]

well I plan to stay until I have a shipped title at least. and that kinda stuff is always changing

[plucky hatch]

Yes indeed, good luck 👍

[rapid iron]

what about Canada tho?

industry is solid there too

plus there is the nordic side

[plucky hatch]

No idea, I only work in Europe.

Nordics specifically.

[rapid iron]

oh?

[plucky hatch]

Many Indians here in both the art and developer side.

[rapid iron]

oh wow

[plucky hatch]

Many* obviously a minority still but there are still quite a few, many of my friends here are from India and doing design here.

[rapid iron]

Mightas well level up and try again next year for sure then 😁

[rapid iron]

good to see more designers here finally. I wanted to do design but programming is the only thing I could get as of now that pays well.

[north plover]

Ime as game designer or artist it's far more difficult to find a job than as programmer as well.

[rapid iron]

but how tough is it to transition?

[plucky hatch]

Very, design is a very crowded market, and it can be very hard to stand out.

[north plover]

transition from programmer to designer you mean?

[rapid iron]

yes. Wanted to be game director someday.

[north plover]

I have no experience with that but I would like a designer with programming background quite much 😄

[rapid iron]

I have a design major not a cs major so that is one thing

[plucky hatch]

Its very hard, I mean Ive been grafting at design for 15 years professionally now, I don’t think I could have taken any time out along the way, depends on how far you want to push it. I will say that good designers who can also program are gold dust.

[rapid iron]

lol I guess I am in luck afterall. I do have a working knowledge of game art and have been brushing up UX as well in my current job (VR needed quite a lot of it)

[tidal moth]

6 day weeks sheesh

we're about to get 4 day weeks

[rapid iron]

alternate weeks. One 5 other 6

[plucky hatch]

Having a working knowledge of design doesn’t make you a good designer. There is also a huge difference between a production designer and a creative designer.

[rapid iron]

dont make me cry pease 😐

[rapid iron]

still much to learn I admit but not stopped that one yet. So what background do game directors come from then?

[north plover]

well Idk what's the standard in india but my gut feeling would say that more work times are quite standard there so I wouldn't judge it that hard.

[plucky hatch]

Do you mean a Creative Director?

[rapid iron]

"standard" is nowhere close to humanly possible unfortunately.

[north plover]

that's true but another environment often means different working conditions unfortunately. Won't start with China as well

[rapid iron]

Not sure what role does Hugo Martin play for Doom Eternal? Always showed Game Director. Now I am confused lol.

[tidal moth]

game directors are intermediaries for games. they're separate from creative directors

[north plover]

I just don't want people to feel bad about their jobs just because they live in another country where it's quite usual. Can just hope they get enough experience to have it better in the future tho. But I totally agree

[rapid iron]

wait both the statements counter each other 🤔

[plucky hatch]

Well Director is in overall control of the entire product when it comes to the vision, design, aesthetics, however it’s different from place to place, some can have design backgrounds, some can be from dev backgrounds, some can be from project management etc etc. under them will usually be the creative leads/creative directors making the day to day decisions.

[rapid iron]

I see so I could qualify for Game Director in the long run then?

[north plover]

you always can qualify for any position in the future tho.

[tidal moth]

sure, eventually

[plucky hatch]

Well yes you can do whatever you put your mind too, it would take a long time from where you are now I suppose but you are are still young.

[rapid iron]

its been hard especially in the pandemic after college was cut short. Inflation does not help either.

[north plover]

it just depends on the difficulty level 😄

[rapid iron]

yeah well I made lead at 22 (albeit a small studio) but it still gives me hope

[plucky hatch]

I am Creative Lead now and in maybe 2-3 years I’ll be Creative Director and that will have been after about 17-18 years of grafting.

[rapid iron]

same here. Fortunately family supports it.

[tidal moth]

I wouldn't see that as a good thing tbh

[rapid iron]

what sucks is I never really found a mentor in the field. Had to find everything myself which is tiring.

[rapid iron]

why would that be?

lol. what makes it annoying is when you become that mentor for others.

[steady pewter]

And I'm regular retard.

[north plover]

I totally agree that you should optimize to move to another country if your life gets better. But to have a job that sucks is better than not finding any job to get experience to eventually move to another country. I can't tell if they have the requirements to already move or not but since they mentioned that they got 50 rejections of job applications already it was already difficult enough to get what they have.

[plucky hatch]

Because it’s a good idea to learn the ropes early on, getting promoted too fast before you have the experience doesn’t really serve you well in the grand scheme of things.

[north plover]

In the first position I got, as junior, I was the one with the most c++ knowledge there. I feel that 😄

[plucky hatch]

I worked for 8 years before becoming Senior for example @rapid iron in that time had plenty of room for mistakes, learning, improving etc.

[rapid iron]

well I am no longer a lead in my new job and it is a huge burden lifted so I dont think it would matter much. But it was a good learning experience to know how to lead tho.

[tidal moth]

because it sounds you were a product of circumstance rather than having earned the title

[rapid iron]

yes! precisely. I got yelled at in a wfh period during lockdown for missing a deadline while I ws fixing another juior's anim BP for an hour.

[rapid iron]

Partially agree. I did undergo probation before I got that role though.

Plus I made a networking solution almost from scratch using phton for VR for our pipeline, wrote a ton of plugins , etc. Doesn't what work was done in the time matter?

Well I was naive 😓 and burnt out from living in the office in peak summer.

What is your role?

[tidal moth]

well if you're contributing then how are you leading?

[rapid iron]

well I am the one who created the pipeline for Unreal, source control, created and manged the VR plugin, adding any new stuff was discussed with me before implementation.

I also helped getting new devs on board with unreal (unity devs are more common here), worked with the server team for REST api integration,etc.

Granted lead may not be the right term but the boss did address me as one. I always mention it was a small team in my CV tho.

Nevertheless work experience is all there and all of this mentioned above happened in 1.5 years.

well... I learnt a bit plus having a boss who does not give you buffer time for technical difficulties or latency from artitsts and SMEs (who answer to the CEO not me), that is a different story 😆

[tidal moth]

I'm not saying that's not valid I'm just saying that's not what a lead does

[rapid iron]

yeah stuff is a little mixed up I agree. I do mention what my work was to avoid any confusion.

I was accountable for the other devs not getting stuck anywhere tho.

[still nymph]

Plenty of lead positions involve doing work and managing others.

[plush ledge]

after reading here i started to feel bad..

[chilly sundial]

Why?

[plush ledge]

people don't seem to be happy about working in game industry

and i haven't seen a lot open junior gamedev positions yet

[still nymph]

All depends on where you work and your position

[plush ledge]

if i can get employed :/

there is almost no pc game studios in my country

almost all of them mobile studios just lookin to hit the goldmine

and as a result all of them use unity

i want to work on a real game but can't find remote junior ue job

even finding a job is hard for me

so finding a good job will be much much harder

[proud spear]

i feel ya, i live in asian (you too maybe) and everyone wants a goldmine mobile game

so yeah, unity

[still nymph]

A mobile game is a real game. As a generalization, mobile studios can pay better and the work is easier. What is a real game to you? Most big studios are churning out a franchise following the same formula over and over. Is that not a goldmine? Its nice to romanticize as a gamer/fan working on a "real game", but the reality of working at one of these "good jobs" may not be as nice as you think. If you need a job, take what you can get and value the experience you can earn and continue your own passion in your free time. Eventually you can land a job that you want.

[plush ledge]

alright i didn't want to offend you. i live in turkey and believe me, in here, every mobile game studio is just after the money

i'm talking specifically about turkey

[chilly sundial]

Its a company, thats what theyre made for

[proud spear]

it is indeed a real game, but you will find more shady revenue practices in mobile. I appreciate my experience, but I won't let that me stagnate. And yes, I do unreal in my own time 😄

[chilly sundial]

A company that doesnt wanna make money isnt gonna be a company for long

[plush ledge]

and yes i'd like to work for pc because that's for the scale for the ideas i have

[plush ledge]

i know and i too think this way

[chilly sundial]

But also working at a studio or a AAA company, you wont be making your ideas, you make someone elses

[still nymph]

I'm not offended at all. I'm just trying to explain a bit to you. Many game studios are "just after money" whether theyre in Turkey or the US or whether theyre in the PC or mobile space.

[chilly sundial]

Maybe in small studios there would be group discussions

[plush ledge]

but there is also no indie pc devs or small groups just making their ideas come true for several reasons

in the end i don't wanna be working for an AAA company

we agree on that

[proud spear]

indie PC is where it's juicy

[plush ledge]

most of the things are about economical concerns

for me

i have a friend who is investing about 100k dollars for his own game thanks to his father..

i have my own dreams too but can't get the opportunity

my short term goal is about getting a job in pc ue5 for the reasons that so even though i will be exploited here too, at least i will learn something to use in my future games

because it's pc and it's unreal

these are the only reasons why i prefer pc rather than mobile

[still nymph]

I agree, but my point is that there is not much need to be discouraged at the industry. You can still learn either way and make progress towards getting the experience you need for your own work.

[plush ledge]

thanks for that

but you know when it's about livelihood..

i'd love to find some people like minded and make games with them

but money is the problem here