career-chat

[plucky hatch]

Linear Algebra builds on trig and calc to some extent but can be taken in isolation.

[plucky hatch]

so i was thinking i should put what i was doing before on hold, go ahead and learn the basic ideas of trig, then start with gamedev again, just worrying about learning as i go/run into issues. I don't know if it's a good idea, figure it'd feel easier if i had something i was directly working/learning towards to fix

right

[shut token]

Funnily enough - I feel the opposite. I find linear algebra to be much more simple than trig. Friggin' triangles 😠

[round radish]

sohcahtoa!

[cyan arch]

I have a question. Can anyone who have copyrighted their coding with Legalzoom tell me how I'm supposed to submit my material to them properly?

[royal lintel]

In the US and many other countries copyright is granted automatically and there is no registration necessary. There may be reasons to register copyright but they are uncommon and should really be done after talking with a lawyer.
Note that this is for copyrights, not trademarks.

[cyan arch]

I don't mind paying for it to be honest - already done so with my copyrights and trademarks (trademarks is going smoothly atm). I've always been a rather safe than sorry kind of guy xD

My current issue is I'm not entirely sure how to send materials to Legalzoom in the correct fashion. Slowly becoming a headache lmao

[pure kettle]

You should be thinking about trademarks more than this.

[craggy nacelle]

Frankly this sounds like someone found a cashcow to be milked :P But if you feel like you're getting your moneys worth then good I guess.... But I hope it has been explained to you by your legal advisor that without significant financial investment you will not be able to enforce any of this because it will not be enforced for you

[cyan arch]

@pure kettle Got that done first xD

@craggy nacelle My project is getting love so far. Partly because of my consumer friendly plans I have and what I'm designing lol I feel really hopeful about it 🙂

@plucky hatch I have no idea what FIPS even means :NODDERS:

[pure kettle]

FWIW copyright applies the moment you make the product a thing.

Trademark is the one that could protect you from someone stealing the branding before you.

[craggy nacelle]

Registered trademark

There's a distinction. Kind of depending on jurisdiction, but usually you can stick a ™️ on whatever, and it means pretty much nothing. ® for registered trademark is the one which actually does something, but costs money and lawyers

But as with everything, having one granted means absolutely nothing unless you have the financial means to prosecute those who violate it

So if a huge corporation wants to violate your registered trademark be prepared for a legal battle costing hundreds of thousands

Copyright violation afaik is a bit simpler but you still have to be able to show it

(Same deal with patents, getting one is complex and very expensive, and in order to enforce your patent, you're now on the hook for even more money because you need lawyers to do it usually)

Not to mention that having trademarks and things granted in the US generally means nothing in the rest of the world :P

(and vice versa)

This is why I find it really questionable when people ask about these topics in relation to game development or even software because as an indie you usually lack the resources to do these things in a way that would make any sense, and your IP is likely to not be worth the amount of money to make it worthwhile to begin with... it just sounds like they've received some really bad legal advice

(Disclaimer: IANAL, just speaking from experience with these things at work and such, I don't work in gamedev but in general software)

[steady pewter]

They never had it to begin with (afaik)

At least not in EU

[chilly sundial]

An indie dev trademark is pointless, imo, as any major company, if they want to, will still steal it and just burn you out with legal debt

Not to mention the only time they would steal is if you were an extremely popular game, which is unlikely anyway

[plucky hatch]

Legal fees vary by country and type, so your mileage may vary, but there is immense value in having a brand and owning the rights to intellectual property in a given market.

I would think establishment of a trademark is a good idea even if just to defend your use of it in the future should someone else come along and want to pressure you not to use your logo or name.

[pure kettle]

The problem is that indie devs tend to have less financial power when it comes to registering trademark on their own

[plucky hatch]

That is the system working as intended, I think. Trademarks in American law IIRC require both commerce using the trademark (IE: sales) and a proactive defense of the trademark (IE: Asking others not to violate it so as to prevent brand confusion).

If your company is without sales or money, you hardly meet the first criteria.

Patent law is different and it is very obvious what a clown fiesta the patent system is (because that system does NOT function as intended)

[pure kettle]

Imagine that scaling up to other 200 countries or so

As a small time indie developer.

No publisher assist.

[plucky hatch]

A solo developer probably has a target market and they can follow the legal framework of their target market getting violators de-listed from Steam or Epic stores in the US, for example

[pure kettle]

But what if we delimit ourselves from US? (especially since I'm not an American)

[plucky hatch]

You pick a legal framework

english common law, american law, european law, or one of the others

There are funny international stories of brands warring

The Whopper in America is Burger King... The WuBa in China is McDonalds.

[pure kettle]

||adding difficulty level: I'm from the Far East||

[plucky hatch]

Asia has laws too but they are so different country to country.

[twin warren]

How do I gauge how much to propose for a freelancing job? I have some models that I want to have modified. It's pretty simple, but it would take me a lot of time (as someone with little 3D art experience).

[plucky hatch]

Usually 3x the minimum wage wherever you are per hour as the baseline, then the more senior you hire, the more it will cost (but be competed faster and more reliably). So where I live it’s about €30 for a newbie, €60 for mid level and €100+ for senior (an hour).

[unreal lynx]

Are there any landmark goals to hit before you should start applying for studios things that everyone should know or like everyone should have done this kind of things?

[tidal moth]

made a portfolio

worked in a game engine

looked up and understood role responsibilities

[unreal lynx]

Would anyone be willing to share their portfolios so I can build an idea of what one should look like?

[tidal moth]

it'd probably be relevant to state which role you're looking to fulfill

[unreal lynx]

You're totally right sorry! I'm looking to become an enviroment artist

[pastel estuary]

just go trough artstation is my suggestion.

[vagrant bramble]

:triangular_flag_on_post: Eric J Weiss#4072 received strike 1. As a result, they were muted for 10 minutes.

[green oyster]

@unreal lynx you should know hard surface modeling, understand normal map baking workflows and be able to succesfully apply them, and texturing with an eye for good details

[atomic junco]

where can I post jobs?

[shut token]

#freelance-jobs #salary-jobs

[pastel estuary]

And please read the #rules, they'd direct you to the right channels.

[vagrant siren]

You also want to be able to demonstrate the ability to build an environment typically from 2D concept in a 3D environment, including how you break up the scene in blocks/stages ( previs ) , this also shows you have an understanding of reading perspective and scale, and more or less which areas to start doing first, using whatever you have available ( 3D art wont always be ready then )

call out these areas/sections and identify hero peices vs reusables/modular, start assembling

showing a clear ability to read and understand a concept in 2D to 3D is basically the key here, with the ability to take feedback and make adjustments, be prepared to start over as sometimes the work is just for a proof that may never see the light of day

anything that shows the process/workflow you went through from concept to final will be super valuable. mytwocents

[junior dew]

linked in offer 100 to 150k is this a scam

[craggy nacelle]

Depends on specifics (location, YOE, etc.)

[tidal moth]

well if it's roubles that seems about the correct value at the current rate

[steel creek]

That's cool but this isn't the place to secondarily announce your postings in the job area

[eager hare]

Still in favor of Robux

But it's hard to quantify, since RU markets aren't open yet afaik

[rapid notch]

Looking for someone to perform a merge for me. and I'm not sure where in here I should post it. If Running solo on this project right now so I don't have to much in the way of funds but trying to make this merge has proven to be over my head. I only have limited C++ training and it was many years ago I am a from a 3D art and design back ground. Anyway looking for someone to make a merge for me where do I post that? Or is it ok to discuss here?

[lone wing]

Hi guys im a games design student year one(done a foundation before as well) and im wondering what would the requierments be to get a job as a game/software tester or something along this very entry level line. I've been working for the past year in sales and recruitment and currently find myself having to look for another job, so im just wondering if i would be able to take a first step into this industry or is too early and my programing knowledge is still not enough.

[tidal moth]

for QA you might be in for a luck of the draw as far as I know. the bar is set very low, but equally you get millions of applications to match that

depending on which country you're based in you'd see different salaries

[lone wing]

i live manchester, i'm not really interested that much about the salary to be fair as long as its decent(10/h or so, im making more now in HR but im trying to make that first step). The thing is i dont really see any ads for this position and the little ones i see require 2+ years of expierience in a similar role. Silly me thinking this is an entry level job

[chrome burrow]

@dim gull

[cosmic spindle]

@lone wingunless your like 17 u may as well be a delivery driver for sainsburys than work minimum wage for a game company

[last edge]

Hey, how is everyone? I'm wondering about if you guys have any good tips or guides for applying to game companies? Do they do technical questions, and if so can you provide some examples?

[knotty solar]

@last edge every company is different, I worked as a developer for nearly 28 years ( mostly retired now), and most companies AAA wise, will ask questions, give tests etc, but this can depend on the position you are applying for. Be sure to know the company you are applying for... Know them well and what they will expect. and be prepared. If that company made a game before, make sure you know about there game, art style, type of games and know more than basic questions or atleast basic questions about the games they made and stuff about that company. If its an indie, they are all different. Have a great portfolio, not just a good one. When I was in a senior position what matter to me, was , the person personality , if they where a team player and easy to work with and was willing to learn.

[small crane]

Anyone know how to get in touch with people to possibly shadow and learn or even unpaid internship to get some experience and exposure?

[plucky hatch]

Email, linkedin, instagram, networking at events etc. Just all the ways you would normally get in touch with someone. Just have a portfolio and covering letter set up in advance, and unpaid internships are illegal/against policy in many countries/companies.

[small crane]

Woah did not know that, thank you

[pastel estuary]

remembers the good old days where one could join a modding team and learn the ropes that way
remembers how old he is

[ashen narwhal]

What are the chances of me getting a career in the game dev field at age 28?
As a teenager i had crappy grades to get into any University/College😬
Even though i understood how dev works and all the tools etc (never got to really making anything though)

[wary idol]

Never too late

[plucky hatch]

I only got into Unreal at 27 (having previously worked in 2D art as a Graphic Designer), I have no formal higher education, now I am Creative Lead at a 100+ person studio and on the board of the local University for game dev.

[ashen narwhal]

Damn thats really awesome man, you accomplished a dream

Any tips were to start?

[plucky hatch]

Be willing to move where the work is, I moved city first (to my capital city) then country in order to chase the most interesting work. Network like crazy and LOTS and lots of practice.

There has been a bunch of luck and nepotism along the way too, with friends getting me feet in the door along the way, but I put that in the networking side of things.

[ashen narwhal]

I actually wouldnt have a problem at all to relocate if and when the opportunity arrives which is good

Are udemy courses worth it at all or should i just stick to youtube and just figure things out on my own using the tools (unreal engine, c++)

[plucky hatch]

I have not used Udemy, the Epic training itself is very good on the learning portal, if you have exhausted that then maybe some tutor-led courses in your local area or time zone would be more helpful.

When I wanted to learn Blender I got a tutor it was very cost effective.

[ashen narwhal]

Perfect then, i will start with the unreal training,

Im pretty good at picking things up fairly quick since pretty much my whole life from age 12 i been into computers and just trying to learn coding, level design and various things as such

[plucky hatch]

I have an intern now in thier 30's they used to work in engineering and just re-tranind as an Unreal dev (1 year course) and im going to try and hire them. So dont let the age thing put you off.

[ashen narwhal]

Thanks man, honestly the age just has me really depressed for some dumb reason.
Im not old obviously just sometimes i think its impossible to get into this, by the time i learn to the time i can get hired

[plucky hatch]

@ashen narwhal Also have two interns 26-29 and will be hiring them soon if they accept, they also just recently retrained from other careers (one was a chef, the other a 2D animator).

[ashen narwhal]

I was actually a chef too😂

[plucky hatch]

See, all good then

Covid has made many people re-evalute thier careers

[ashen narwhal]

Indeed it has, i guess its time to get to work and learning things again

[wary idol]

I'm currently teaching my dad programming and gonna try to get him a career in game dev, he is 44, I mean he is not that old but the point is that it's never too late

[plucky hatch]

I actually find it more impressive when I have more mature applicants who have changed careers, it shows they have passion, self determination and at least some fearlessness.

[ashen narwhal]

Thats actually awesome of you mate

[ashen narwhal]

Indeed it is, shows dedication

[plucky hatch]

Well good luck, hope it works out for you both @wary idol @ashen narwhal

[ashen narwhal]

Thanks for your input mate, hope all works well for us!

[plucky hatch]

What country are you in @ashen narwhal (if you don't want to say its ok but are you in the EU)?

[ashen narwhal]

EU yes, UK but moved to Croatia last year

[plucky hatch]

Oh cool I was also UK but moved to SE. Well if you can make it here to my local school they do a really good game dev course for mature students with a very good placement rate (over 80%). All education is free here until PHD too so it costs nothing, you would need to get a job or a loan then however while doing it. https://www.yrgo.se/utbildningar/game-creator-programmer/

Its not a course for mature students, its just a lot of people now are taking it to switch career,'

All 3 interns I mentioned are on placement form here

from*

[ashen narwhal]

Oh thats actually pretty neat man, i will definitely check it out and see!

[plucky hatch]

Its obviously a big commitment, but food for thought

[ashen narwhal]

Haha yes ofcourse, i will look into it 🙂

[tidal moth]

out of curiosity, which role are you gunning for?

[ashen narwhal]

Uhm, to be honest i havent really thought of a specific role, but i like level designing and coding

[plucky hatch]

We have 26 game dev studios (that I know of) here in Gothenburg, and that's not counting all the studios like mine who do Enterprise work (Automotive, fashion, product etc).

[ashen narwhal]

I would love character modeling/sculpting too but my art sucks anyway🤣

[tidal moth]

I think now is the time to figure out which role you'd like to be in, and look towards how you can get better there

[ashen narwhal]

Yep, absolutely

[wary idol]

Oh I'm from Croatia, welcome 😅

[ashen narwhal]

Ahaha hello😄 your country is beautiful

[wary idol]

Quite a coincidence haha

[ashen narwhal]

Indeed mate,😂

[plucky hatch]

Personally I would not want to study for 2 years, I think if you have the willpower you can do it on your own, maybe some top ups from tutors and short courses

[ashen narwhal]

Willpower is there, i have a ton of free time as well to be honest also

[tidal moth]

first step is to get to a point of understanding your role, then it's about building a portfolio... and really, just applying for junior or intern positions

a good portfolio will go a long way

if you have questions about LD or the like you're welcome to ask in #level-design

[plucky hatch]

Yes indeed, it will go all the way!

And keep it simple too, 3-4 good in depth pieces are enough

[ashen narwhal]

So, if the role is lets say level design, would i be looking to overall make small game projects as an overal understanding of things or do i just focus on showcasing good level design abilities

Or both i guess

[plucky hatch]

both

[tidal moth]

just showcase good level design really

you don't need to go beyond your role

especially for junior positions

[ashen narwhal]

Okay thanks for the input 🙂

[twilit quarry]

Hey guys, I’m currently in highschool focusing on my career path towards becoming a game dev or graphic designer and was wondering if I’m making decent progress at least for starting all this about 2 months ago. Trying to start a portfolio of sorts early.

https://youtu.be/1kHG9SNgsqc

All the assets are mine besides the auto landscape material (the textures are mine) and the water.

[small crane]

Where did you get a blender tutor?

[plucky hatch]

Just googled around, settled on a guy called Vaughan Ling, but he doesn't give classes anymore. https://www.artstation.com/vaughanling

[drifting spindle]

Hi, i'm trying for entry level jobs from 1 years. do i have any chance with this portfolio and i getting demotivated day by day. Need practical and quick guide. https://acmoidre.github.io/amirsohail.github.io/

[stuck holly]

Not an expert here but what I noticed is that on your portfolio page the "Project Link" buttons are confused. The Forest Zombie Chase leads to the Omega War Zone one and the Omega War Zone to Forest Zombie Chase

[drifting spindle]

thanks for pointing out mistake i remember reorder those links before pushing.

fixed it

[modern relic]

how do you guys deal with the feeling that you are stalling on a project? like im getting work done but it honestly feels like fluff work and that im not making any significant/quantifiable changes

[modern relic]

ye i really should. that implies that i actually know what im doing with my game though and i honestly dont

feels a bit like im just pretending honestly

[tidal moth]

I have no idea what role you are applying for. everything on the portfolio just seems chaotic. there's a bunch of videos with very little description and a project link.

also being based in India severely limits your possibilities, especially for a junior role

[late acorn]

Hey would anyone know of any places currently taking remote interns? Primarily for 3D art?

[tidal moth]

depending on where you're based you might have missed the window

[stuck holly]

Sounds like you're a bit frustrated. Maybe try to write more things down. What are your goals for this project? What have you achieved today, write down every little thing. It could also be that you really aren't achieving much because you're too burnt out? Maybe take a break?

[chilly sundial]

burnout is a real project killer

better to do little and often than long bursts

make sure to take your breaks, even if its only 10-20mins with a cup of tea and a youtube video

[plucky hatch]

burnout is very real and I have seen several people essentially lose their creation mojo from it

[chilly sundial]

oh ive abandoned several projects from burnout

in fact burnout made me give up an entire programming language

[modern relic]

hm i dont feel burnt out. i definitely want to keep working on it and make progress but im definitely frustrated that i dont really have any direction or anything specific to work on or aim for. im just doing "stuff" hoping it will turn out. i think what Lorash said is a good idea, start defining what that game is and maybe write up a bit of a design doc or something

[chilly sundial]

try out a trello list they can help prioritise your tasks

a design doc can also help

[pure kettle]

Or GitHub, because it has similar roadmap feature

[chilly sundial]

didnt know that might have to have a look

[plucky hatch]

is it really that bad if you change jobs/careers for your dream job?? read somewhere that employers look down on that sort of thing and i dont understand it

[pure kettle]

It's (should) not (be) wrong to look for greener pastures.

[round radish]

Depends if you're jumping around. If you stay in a job for 4 months and then quit to work somewhere else, employers are gonna eye you suspiciously.

[plucky hatch]

no that makes sense. i forgot thats where i read that.

[pure kettle]

If jumping around in short period of time, then maybe you're in a blacklist before you know it.
But if you're dissatisfied with current job due to undesired changes, or mistreatment, then looking for greener pastures should be allowed.

[plucky hatch]

dunno why i have a degree in cs sometimes. i know my history. but i kinda wish id have looked before i lept. i didnt think id fall in love with mechanical stuff. building innovations that move and get people places. the nature of the work and the things software engineers build is a turn off. granted not everything is tax/accounting/boring software. but its some of the more available jobs. and the political climate (and Silicon valleys location) is a major turn off.

[pure kettle]

In my own case, it was kind of a desperate call, and not necessarily move to a dream job.

Back in my event organising days, I quietly applying elsewhere after a year because my employer at that time decided to cut paycheck by whopping 1/8 of the average paycheck due to then fresh COVID pandemic, and still have unpaid crunch works. It was so little that I accumulated recurring debt since then. Not to mention I didn't get a chance to do more R&D with virtual production. Only by the time I had accepted for the new job that I formally resign and cut ties.

More recent graphic designing daytime job is still not that huge paying, but at least it's twice the amount, less overtimes, and I had less recurring debt.

[plucky hatch]

understandable. i have worked 5 diferent jobs in the past year. the first one i got fired because that company was full of a bunch of dickheads (my next employer detested delivering to them for that very reason). the second one i was forced to move 1500 miles away. the next job just plain sucked and i quit in a heartbeat once the opportunity presented itself. the very next one they cut my hours to like 8 or 10 a week so i am facing that same debt situation. but my second job (I still work the last one i mentioned) I am just getting up to speed on and i love it. I just want a job in engineering at some point and seeing my peers succeeding there is making me very envious

[rapid iron]

I have an interview scheduled on saturday for an unreal dev.

Unfortunately, the HR says my expected salary is too high for my experience even though it is close to my current. My experience is low in years but I did a lot in that time.

Is this just the HR trying to make me settle for a lower salary?

[pure kettle]

Depends on where you live and the expected work there

[muted galleon]

Hey everyone! I have a question on gauging the culture of a studio. I have an interview with the rest of the team after passing the first interview. How do I go about asking the team what ideas or actions they have already implemented to prevent or deal with harassment or you think the question I am asking you all should suffice? I never been in the industry before and some stories kind of have me worried

[rapid iron]

Well the place I am currently in has lower living expenses vs the new job plus Unreal devs are not common vs Unity in my country (did not say this partto the HR).

Plus I also helped with UX in my current job and having that knowledge as a dev should be a plus right?

[ashen lynx]

@rapid ironMaybe yes. Or maybe what you are asking is off budget. Both could be true. It boils down to two simple conditions. Can you afford to ditch that offer and do you feel comfortable accepting lower bid, both financially and morally? That is all there is.

[rapid iron]

@ashen lynx I find it hard for a lower bid cuz first, my current job is indeed paying me higher than what conventionally people with my level of experience in years get.

Plus they are looking for an on site dev in probably the most expensive cities to live in our country. If it was remote I may have considered it as I could save rent living at my parent's (not many apartments available these days anyways)

Plus I asked for $14k p.a vs $10k p.a (current).

I have 1.5 years of commercial experience in Unreal plus 2 years of non commercial (including 2 college projects.).

I have been building apps for Oculus Quest 2, wrote custom networking solutions for VR, Loading Screen System (VR), etc. I can do both cpp and bp, have a working knowledge of 3d modelling, rigging, animation and texturing which has helped communicate effectively with the artists for our implementations.

I have seen them post for an Unreal dev several times and seems like they have not found anybody yet.

[young gust]

@rapid iron may i ask what country you are living in now?

[rapid iron]

India 😅, job is also in India

[young gust]

ok gotcha, thanks bud

[rapid iron]

Ummm what about it?

[young gust]

I'm building a company and recruiting various people but it is in Europe and will require people to relocate here

[rich axle]

What should I learn to go into a level design career?

[modern relic]

Level design probably

[rich axle]

Thats crazy

never thought of that thanks

[chilly sundial]

next time it'll cost ya!

[placid frost]

I don't know you but maybe you should look into bare metal embedded software, I work as one in an aerospace company and we work very closely to the electronic and mechanical teams, implementing their models etc .. Maybe it could interest you, idk, just giving my 2 cents

[tidal moth]

find out first if level design is actually what you're doing. based on question you've been asking in other channels it seems like you're more interested in art, not level design. so understanding the role you're looking to apply for in the future is key

[plucky hatch]

Thatd be nice but no one wants to hire me in engineering xD

[thorn brook]

Hey, is it ok to DM you? We are looking for someone like you but need a little more info. The job would be remote

[rapid iron]

just DM why ask?

[thorn brook]

Cause too many scammers on discord recently why i prefer asking beforehand instead of just DMing

[rapid iron]

point

[woeful pendant]

What's market price for tech artists and also for UE/C++ engineers these days?

[chilly sundial]

Depends on area

[chilly sundial]

some places it could even be 2 money

however if you have no experience then its gonna be no money

[plucky hatch]

seems freelancing discords have tons of scammers

[last edge]

What advice do you guys wish you heard when you first started preparing to work for the industry? If you could go back in time, what would you tell yourself?

[plucky hatch]

Start sooner👀

[latent tartan]

Hi all, I have a small company and looking into the best way to find level designers, people able to make blueprints etc in unreal. As I have limited contract work where and how is a good place to find people?

Thanks in advance

[shut token]

#freelance-jobs

[gleaming tendon]

all those jobs are so high level, anything for community manager jobs or project advisor?

[tidal moth]

project advisor? you mean game director? 😂

[gleaming tendon]

no, i found this sv from NFT space, so nft project. 🙂

[pure kettle]

NFT

Nope.

Just nope.

[gleaming tendon]

or maybe i am in wrong place xD

access denied 😄

i will stay here though, gonna need some good game development team in future.

[tidal moth]

you're being way too reasonable towards an early 20 something person

[round radish]

I need to do that just to avoid paying tax.

[craggy nacelle]

I highly recommend reading the book "I Will Teach You To Be Rich"... Ignore the stupid name, it's basically no-nonsense advice on stuff like what Lorash mentioned about low-cost index funds.

What's good about the IWT book is it basically gives you a bunch of systems you can follow and never worry about it again. Put X here, Y there, you can spend the rest however you feel like

It's a bit US-centric with 401k's and Roth IRAs and whanot, but even as a european it gave me a few good ideas

since I'm definitely the kinda person who just wants things to work without having to think about it lol

this is also why a lot of my investments are in a managed fund as i don't have to think about asset allocation even if I pay a bit more in fees :P

[plucky hatch]

”career chat" --> "screw game dev, start investing!"

No investment is better than investing in your own skills and professionalism

[craggy nacelle]

Yeah you're absolutely right and that's why I've started diversifying into some less expensive funds

...contrary to all investment advice ever™️ my biggest investment wins came from massively lucking out in crypto though, I really should be moving those into some non-lottery type things

this is exactly what the author of the book I mentioned also says :)

and yeah it's quite true

I wonder how much mine are actually, probably more than that tbh :P

It's somewhat annoying that my bank doesn't offer a good view on index funds and such, and it's just 100x more convenient to be able to do the investments through them instead of using a separate service for it

In general the funds they do offer have had a decent performance so at least it's not all bad

Yeah that's probably a good idea

lol

0.5% on the less actively managed fund and 1.72% on the one I bought before I had any idea what I was doing besides what the nice lady at the bank told me :P

Yeah I need to look into it some more. I just feel like I can't be arsed to deal with reallocating them manually from time to time

It seems a lot of the providers here take a cut from buying and selling funds as well

but it probably compounds less, except the selling fee..

Lowest fees I can find on index funds here are 0.2% which I guess is still better than 0.5

Yeah it seems S&P500 is generally recommended

Oh hey OMX Helsinki 25 is only 0.18... or 0.11 if you invest 500 million!

[tidal moth]

aren't most of those trending with the S&P anyway?

[drifting spindle]

Thanks for the reply @tidal moth for gameplay and curious why india locotion can limit junior roles or entry opportunities.

[pure kettle]

Well, because AFAIK India doesn't have much when it comes to game dev jobs locally. Not to mention relocation process can be prohibitive and involving, even more so if you don't have a reputable uni degree to get easier work visa.

Doesn't mean there's none worth enough in your country. Some bigger companies like Ubisoft do have development branch on Pune, which currently worked on major project, a remake of Prince of Persia Sands of Time

[drifting spindle]

What about remote works ?

[pure kettle]

Remote work might work, but you'd have to supply your own equipments and whatnot, unlike in-site work where you can just use equipments supplied by the company. I'm not inclined to think remote work is for those who are just starting up.

[tidal moth]

remote work for junior roles is almost non existent. then add to that time zone differences and the fact you are competing globally with people and the chance of getting employed like that diminishes greatly

I'm also not sure what you mean by "for gameplay"

[drifting spindle]

Gameplay Engineer

[drifting spindle]

Any suggestion or guindence for my situation will greatly appreciated. Thanks in Advances

[tidal moth]

I haven't ever been in your situation, so I can't say. if you're an engineer then maybe you can get a regular engineering job first and move from there. it's much easier when you have experience, even if it's not inside game dev. that said, there's a few studios that do outsource in india, or have indian counterparts, so you can try your luck there

[drifting spindle]

thanks, thats the plan.

[pseudo ether]

Does someone know a company that may be able to hire for a summer job a 16 years old with 3 years of experience in Unreal?

[serene crystal]

#instructions

[pure kettle]

See #instructions on how to post to #hire-a-freelancer

[unreal folio]

I hope everyone has a good day.

[red dirge]

How do I calculate a game dev cost for someone so he can pay me to make him a game? What do I judge off

And do I get paid by hours work or by features and what’s required

[red dirge]

How do I value the game, like how much on average a game costs and is it reasonable to charge 250-500 usd for a simple game like flappy birds? That’s the actual development cost of it

Or Do I calculate it separately ex: the person wants a game that has 3d models of buildings and cars, normally the Total cost of the 3d models are 60-250 usd and the average code for the cars and movement is 50-100 usd (ex) do I just sum up what I would charge for the job separately and sum up all of them and what’s needed for the game and charge that?

[craggy nacelle]

You could hire me for about half a day for 500 dollars :P

as Lorash said there are two ways to price it, either you estimate how many hours it'll take and then do it at your hourly rate, or you give some kind of per-feature estimate

all of this is entirely up to you and what you think is reasonable

you can of course try to base it on what you think would be a fair salary for yourself for doing the work

[serene crystal]

artists generally can gauge the complexity of something and give a predefined price

programming not so much I assume

[craggy nacelle]

If you ask someone experienced they can usually give you a rough estimate... but the general rule of thumb is to take your estimate and 2-4x it, so there can be a lot of air in it :P

[pastel estuary]

the amount of information I sometimes had to suck out of potential clients to make estimations though. ooof

[wary idol]

With programming a week long job usually extends to 2 weeks lol

[serene crystal]

in your case materials are kind of a mix of both I would say lol

assuming you did material stuff for them

[pastel estuary]

materials/vfx but also env. art thingies.

[serene crystal]

nice

[royal lintel]

you've now made a 2 week estimate, double it 😛

[pastel estuary]

then double it again :p

[royal lintel]

keep doubling forever

[craggy nacelle]

double estimate all the way

across the sky

speaking of hiring, I was looking at some job openings the other day just out of curiosity and pretty much nothing felt very interesting

no idea what I'm gonna do if I ever need to get another job than what I'm doing right now :P

[wary idol]

Haha yeah 😅
It isn't far from truth

[serene crystal]

not making cool projects or just not an exciting learning opportunity?

[craggy nacelle]

Well I mean I'm working on my own projects but they don't pay the bills lol

I'm not currently in need of further employment but it's good to know what's available and yeah I mean probably ok work but nothing really was like "yeah I'd like to apply for that"

[red dirge]

Is it trustworthy as a career, I love what I do but it’s not considered a real job or official, same time I don’t want to work for a company, I like having my own ideas for the game and do it and update it, not working for a company, what can I do from now to make it a career, do I start a studio,company,team? And can I make a living out of it, get married, etc, what are some degrees that I can get that can help me in my career and also to back me up in case I fail in it and have to work for a company , I like design, making levels , graphics (3d modeling) etc, what can I do to make me feel like I have control of the game and I’m working on it and I own that game and release it and make updates and changes I want while also having a official job

[plucky hatch]

If you are very skilled and determined then of course it’s feasible. Generally not recommended for newbies however, I always recommend to cut your teeth in an actual studio to pick up better working practices, communication skills and networking contacts.

I worked in studios for 6 years before being able to have the skills, confidence and contacts to work freelance professionally. In the end now years later I got bored and decided to back into studio work but that’s due to personal preference.

Hey guys, I have a question for you. I am an Unreal programmer and I currently looking for my first job. I come from Poland which makes it very difficult for me to find a job in this engine because most of the companies here work in unity. Could you advise me something in this situation?

[pure kettle]

Well, if you look for the stars, CDPR started using UE5 recently.
But in any case, if you can't relocate or do remote works, you might want to look for another venture or step out of the comfort zone and do Unity for living.

[red dirge]

My concerns are about immigration, i don’t know what university to study so I can migrate to Canada for example, they won’t take me as a freelancer

[plucky hatch]

Well that I can’t answer it has so many dependents, but a BA or MA in relevant field is always helpful.

It depends on what field you are going into, if it’s design for example the degree May get you the visa as a tick box but it will be a portfolio that lands you the actual job.

[red dirge]

Whats a good hourly rate for juniors and seniors per hour, and do software devs make more?
I’m getting different opinions on money per hour

Software senior highest is 92/h
Game dev senior highest is 67/h

Is the game dev number fair? As it also includes other game work like graphics, 3d modeling, level design etc

[pure kettle]

Depends on region and studio size (the former matters more)

[red dirge]

Solo and if studio 5-15ppl, region Canada for example also why would the region matter if I’m working online

[chilly sundial]

the region still matters as pay is dependant really on where the founder is based

ive seen remote listings for liek $180,000 which for LA is probably right, but for UK is insanely high

[red dirge]

Well, I can’t decide on that, let’s talk on average

Is senior 72/h average good?

[chilly sundial]

unfortunately i cannot give numbers from canada, as i am not canadian

[red dirge]

Well average as in any region not in Canada, I’m not in Canada ether

Average world wide

[chilly sundial]

i mean i don't know freelance rates, but i do know some salaries

in the UK at least, it seems to be junior positions start at around £20-25k depending on field

and seniors can be around £60-90k

[red dirge]

What is more paying?
Giving game dev courses
Having a game dev studio and publish personal game
Freelancing on average

[chilly sundial]

as a professional freelancer probably that

[pure kettle]

Either three is a gamble, but theoretically freelancer is more immediate

[chilly sundial]

courses will be quite luck based and so will owning a studio

[red dirge]

Around 100,000 usd, sorta low compared to other companies, why is the region a factor tho?

[chilly sundial]

a studio can be more liekly to succeed with large publisher backing, but that can be hard and you lose control of your game

[chilly sundial]

living costs vary all around the world

[red dirge]

Well, who’s region matters, me or him?

[chilly sundial]

in LA it can be like $2000 a month for a studio apartment, whereas over here £700 a month can get you a 3 bedroom house

[pure kettle]

The project owner

[chilly sundial]

^

[red dirge]

So me

[chilly sundial]

if you are hiring people yes

[red dirge]

My region, yearly salary is 26,000 usd a year 🤨

[red dirge]

No I’m the one working

[pure kettle]

Region is a major factor, because buying power and prices vary per region.
$100K in third world country would make you one of the richest in neighbourhood and surrounding.

[chilly sundial]

so you arent the project owner

the project owner is the pertson hiring people

your salary will be dictated by the norm of their region

[red dirge]

Could he just lie

[chilly sundial]

say if you worked for me, you'd be looking at £25k for a junior programmer, but if i was in LA you'd probably be in the $40k range

[chilly sundial]

well yes, but again that won't affect you

youre only gonna go for the job if the pay works

if he says "I am from antarctica so your salary is $2.50" then you just say "no" and find a new one that works

[red dirge]

Yeah well my country pays 💩, 5 dollars an hour

[chilly sundial]

well then you're likely gonna find a job that works for you

most studios that are hiring will pay more than that

[pure kettle]

That's around $880/mo, assuming 9 to 5 and 8 days off weekend. In my country, that is huge, get good stuff and few to spare, but for Canada, might barely had any to spare.

[chilly sundial]

yeah, in england that s around the salary of a part time job, even a bit less, so that's why region matters so much

[red dirge]

So to sum this up, I work for a studio and making a living for it then I work on my own, my best options would be a studio or freelancing?

[chilly sundial]

freelancing likely

but neither are guarantees

[red dirge]

If being successful and working and making a livable money off this field is so hard and unlikely why should I continue? I’m not saying I don’t want to, I just see no motivation to it working in something knowing my game prolly won’t make it out by what iv heard from people, I seriously love this career but I doubt I can make a living from it due to the amount of luck to have, any good reason to continue?

[chilly sundial]

people make indie games because they like making games

some of us get lucky

theres money to be made professionally

but if you wanna do your own game its unlikely

freelancing has a higher track record for money, as again it's just work, but if you wanna build a studio, its a small minority that can become majorly successful

there are lots of things to improve that luck

like good marketing and such

but at the end of the day nothing is guaranteed

[red dirge]

I wish I had my own game, but I guess il just have to work for a studio and then have enough money to pay for publishing and being somewhat having a chance to make a studio

What can I do to help back up my game in case my studio doesn’t work out? Selling game assets? Models, code?

[chilly sundial]

I mean you can do that but typically startups get outside funding

New studios can take investirs

Otherwise solo dev

Im making a game, and my entire budget is £100 and most of that is the steam page cost

I wouldnt even think about making a studio yet

There are so many aspects to business, it isnt all just have a good idea

When you make a studio you take on a hell of a lot of legal obligations too

Work professionally and solo dev in the spare time

Then if your projects need it, and you have money from other games, hire people

Unless you can find investors

But be warned, something like 90% of startups fail

[red dirge]

Will that maybe work out?

I just want any motivation to continue, I’m just hearing all bad things and numbers

[chilly sundial]

It may work out

Indie dev is no guarantee

If you wanna go the corporate route look for investors and publishers and kearn how to do business, as thats where your focus will be

If you wanna make games then do it if you enjoy it

Indie dev is no cashcow

I make games for fun and to build a portfolio, if i eaen some money, then bonus

If you learn good business and good game dev skills, and have a good idea, then yes you are more likely to at least be comfortable

Indie dev is not gonna make you some multi millionaire unless youre hella lucky

Not even professional work will

Your motivation should come from the heart not from money as thats what indie dev is aboit

AAA games are made for money, indie games are made from enjoying the process

Worst case scenario is your gane fails but you have something for a cv, best case your rich and famous, likely case is it makes a small amount of money, maybe 1k or so, and it serves asa nice little bonus, less likely case you make a bit more money

Your chances of success only go up as you make more

Your first gane probably isnt gonna do much, but if you keep releasing under the same name, then you may start to build a reputation

Dont be disheartened if your first game doesnt make it, just know that if you keep at it you may get better chances

Get a professional job, that way if you never hit that point you still have a career

[steady pewter]

tldr?

[serene crystal]

make game

[pure kettle]

Do the dang thing

[chilly sundial]

Tldr; go corporate but your time will be spent on business more, or make indie games but only if you enjoy it

[steady pewter]

If you work for somebody, you spend less time on business.

[red dirge]

What pro. Job can I do similar go game dev, I like design

[chilly sundial]

Game design

You can get professional jobs in any aspect of game dev

But which aspect of design

[timid cedar]

Your budget is not 100

[red dirge]

I may work for someone so I have a job until I have my successful business, but I don’t want to be under someone’s team, I wanna release my own game and have my own team, and I’m not into India games, I’m so what into AAA wanna be games

[chilly sundial]

Level design, environment design, narrative design

[timid cedar]

This is what solo devs say to themselves

[red dirge]

Graphics, ui, level design

[timid cedar]

You have to count your salary too

[chilly sundial]

But i do have a budget...

That is the budget of my game

[red dirge]

Can I start sith no budget at first until I make some money and release on steam?

[timid cedar]

100? So like 1 day of work?

[chilly sundial]

Yes of course

[red dirge]

I can do most things, Audio, code, models etc

[chilly sundial]

Im not coubting work hours for a hobby project

Not everything is as cut and dry as that

My hobby project is costing me 100, so that is the budget

[timid cedar]

You should. Otherwise how can you count profit.

It wont be realistic

[chilly sundial]

Because i can count whatever over that 100 as profit

[red dirge]

So, basically I will work for a small studio or company and make a living out of it, learn game design, making a build a portfolio, try to make a business even if solo, if I make enough money for a living, I take it full time, is this the best choice?

[timid cedar]

And properly scoped

[chilly sundial]

It is a hobby project i am not worried about profit

If im doing it for recreation it isnt work

Otherwise i should start counting my hourly rate for playing games as well

[timid cedar]

Yes but keep in mind that if one of your games gets you enough to make a living, the next one might not

[chilly sundial]

Also very true

[red dirge]

I wanna take the good sides but I still have to accept all of this 😞

I love this career but it’s just so hard to be I b

In*

[chilly sundial]

Indeed it is

[red dirge]

Do I have more luck as a solo dev than opening a studio?

[steady pewter]

"luck"?

[red dirge]

Making money to live off

Bec as a solo dev I don’t pay money for a studio

Tax, rent, etc

[green oyster]

"Opening" a studio can be nothing more than some legal documents, a room in your house you legally sublet as a HQ

[red dirge]

Employees, also if the game flops money lost is less

[green oyster]

No income - no taxes

[chilly sundial]

Again theres no metric for that. Typically the risk is mainly shouldered by investors in a company

In a solo dev you shoukder the risk but the only risk is your spare time

Theres no way to gauge the amount of luck you will have, if there wss it woukdnt be luck

Again you can increase your odds in both ways

But i must stress indie dev isnt a money focused industry

The good pay comes from large corporations

[plucky hatch]

So i wanna learn UE but im confused to choose UE4 or UE5
UE4 has more tutorial and documentation but UE5 is latest with helpful features
I wanna make android games
Need a word of advice

[green oyster]

What features of UE5 do you need for android?

[plucky hatch]

Idk,which one should i learn?

[spice dagger]

@plucky hatch Your probably better off learning to use UE5.

Many tutorials and most of the documentation is still extremely relevant.

There is also the consideration to make that UE4 is now no longer supported, in that Epic wont release further updates to it.

So you would be instead learning old technology.

[plucky hatch]

i see,thank you

[ancient cedar]

just a curious question, is it easy to learn level design in unreal engine? (I don't have a coding background)

[granite thistle]

You don't need any coding to design levels in UE. You can do everything using the UI.

[ancient cedar]

TY!

[oblique ice]

you can just block out shapes to make level then later details, feel free look at learn.unrealengine.com

[ancient cedar]

Yeha I heard about that

Grey boxing right?

I'm doing some industry game design course

And grey boxing is like the layout of the level?

[oblique ice]

grey boxing/blocking/blockout, is really how level will start, i also still do it that way even when i model asset for later exprt to engine 🙂

[proud spear]

I've been browsing career search sites and I was kind of surprised to see so many UE job positions compared to Unity. Is this because...

1. UE is catching up to Unity
2. UE is more difficult than Unity and so job listings stay up longer as they're harder to fill
3. Companies with job listings are biased towards UE because larger companies tend to use UE more than Unity (and need more people)
4. Mobile (Unity favored) centric companies are using different career sites that I don't know about

[tidal moth]

has unity ever been ahead of unreal? 🤔 I haven't heard of any AA(A) studios using unity I think ever. it's mostly limited to studios focusing the mobile experience

[proud spear]

I come from the mobile arena so I guess I’m not used to it 😅

[tidal moth]

UE4 has been the gold standard for commercial engines for studios that don't have their own inhouse

[tidal moth]

really depends on what you mean by level design. there is a misconception that people think level design is related to art, but this is not actually the case

[ancient cedar]

Place around buildings, props and such

I'll show example

[tidal moth]

level design is related to gameplay, not placing props around

[ancient cedar]

I mean something like this

[tidal moth]

yeah but that's not a single unified role

[ancient cedar]

Wdym

[tidal moth]

it's not one person behind that entire process

one person will make the blockout and prepare the gameplay for a location

[ancient cedar]

Oh

What's that person called

[tidal moth]

another person will come in and add the art and cosmetics

[ancient cedar]

Ohhh

[tidal moth]

so which one are you looking towards

[ancient cedar]

Something involving the design of buildings including their textures

[pure kettle]

Environment artist then

[ancient cedar]

What does an environment artist do

I'll search it up to save the time actually

[tidal moth]

"design" here generally refers to gameplay specific issues. if you're just looking to make buildings look cool that's environment art

[ancient cedar]

Oh that's it

So I basically make world assets

And design the environment

[tidal moth]

again, design is the wrong word to use here

[ancient cedar]

Oh sorry

Construct?

[tidal moth]

if you're designing the environment, you're designing it for gameplay

if you're creating art passes, that would be environment art

[ancient cedar]

Ohhhhhh

Thank you now I actually get the idea

You design it for the intention of a game play

[tidal moth]

yes

[ancient cedar]

But you create the art for the environment

[tidal moth]

correct

[proud spear]

To make you more confused, Japan calls artists designers 🤭

[ancient cedar]

If I may ask, do u know where I can find this sort of theory?

[tidal moth]

japan has its own separate system

[ancient cedar]

To continue expanding my knowledge

[tidal moth]

there isn't a theory behind it

it's just the standard process in use

[pure kettle]

True 😆
Personally I adhere to Japanese positions more

[ancient cedar]

Thank you for the tips also

[tidal moth]

and this is not strictly true for all japanese studios

[proud spear]

I haven’t encountered it not being so, but I certainly accept there could be exceptions

[pure kettle]

I guess considering this server is primarily western

[tidal moth]

in more recent times studios are keen to absorb the "western" process. as far as I know this was pioneered by FromSoft, but they are far from the only company doing that

[native jay]

are there any people in this server who have actual jobs/experience in the industry?

[steady pewter]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[shut token]

Plenty. A bunch actually.

[red dirge]

Ik iv been annoying with my questions but I just have to Figuire out a path so I can see what I will do with my life

I’m 2 years away from university, and 4-5 years away from having a real job, it’s best to try to earn money and build a YouTube channel and portfolio from now as that will help me later and possible increase my chance of having a successful game dev company as I have an audience on YouTube same time iv been trying for over 4 years, should I start now building this opportunity?

I have most of what I need except funding and some knowledge, I know how to use unreal engine 5, I’m learning rn marketing and cpp, I’m trying to make friends with people so we make a small team

[chilly sundial]

if you're sixteen it's way too young to be worrying about that, yes you shoudl start thinking about a career, but you've got plenty of time to make games

[red dirge]

I’m worrying bec it’s the only thing I love and I hate to be working in something else, I’m trying to see if there is hope in this, I will start building a YouTube channel and make tutorial and show off my work, make dev vlogs, try to make a team and work together maybe they will work out better than being solo

[chilly sundial]

again, don't worry, yes you won't build a successful studio overnight, nut that doesnt mean you need to worry about it at 16

you're gonan end up overworking yourself

dont try those things until you've develoiped skills

if you try to make a company as someone who hasnt worked professionally its gonna be a lot harder

[red dirge]

I’m not trying to make a company, I’m trying to build a portfolio and skills and a small team without any money paid so we have a higher chance when developed to make something successful

[chilly sundial]

Yeah when your serious about it do make a company, but i wouldnt until youve developed some of the skills otherwise you may be in over your head

[granite thistle]

Anyone has any experiences to share how hard is it to land a remote job in the gaming industry working with UE. With 0 professional experience with any gaming companies. But let's say you show off that you released a small game yourself on steam. Could that realistically get my foot in the door?

[red dirge]

I’m just making a small unpaid team, we need each other, idk how I can make a company and I don’t want to bec I don’t play staying here plus I’m not in my country, I don’t n have a nationality here to open a company

[tidal moth]

making a company is like a level 15 skill to acquire and my dude here is only like a level 3 at most

[rapid oar]

What's the average salary rate for a level designer, entry level?

[tidal moth]

depends on location

(and depends on if you actually mean level designer, and not environment artist)

[rapid oar]

No definitely a level designer, and based in the UK

[tidal moth]

anywhere from 19-25k realistically

[fervent turtle]

A painful amount

Jesus

[ember bluff]

I'm not from UK, how painful?

[lethal forge]

Hello everyone. I am 1st year college student interested and passionate about game devlooment, I have currently learned c++ and looking forward to learn unreal. Should I focus on learning engine or should I focus programming concepts such as data structure and algorithms.

[round radish]

@ember bluff you probably earn more as a teacher.

[plucky hatch]

Pretty standard entry level salary.

[plucky hatch]

I think its absolutely a good idea to give that a shot. I think sometimes that when you ask people on the web questions there is a tendency to justify saying "no youre too young yet", i wish i had it together like you at thatt age.

Just make sure it doesnt interfere with your schooling. thats your best shot at getting into university

[chilly sundial]

I would definitely devlop your skills, but i wouldnt rush into making a company

trying to run a business with no idea how to run a business can only end poorly

[plucky hatch]

that is how you learn

[plucky hatch]

fail fast

fail forward

[chilly sundial]

yes but not by setting up a business which can be expensive

not everyone has loads of money

saying you will learn to run a business better by your first one dying is like saying you'll be a better driver if you crash a ferrari, sure you will but its an expensive way to do it

[round radish]

It's pretty cheap to run a company.

Running a company does not mean you have to rent office buildings and pay thousands for some sort of enterprise java website or whatever.

[green oyster]

I sublet a room to my own company for free, and I pay my accountant like 30-50 usd monthly. No other costs

[round radish]

In the UK, setting up a company is free. Running it has zero costs. If you want limited liability, you can register it for a 1-time free of a like £20

[pure kettle]

So it still depends on the region.

[craggy nacelle]

I've never heard having some type of one-person business has a running cost associated with it

It depends on what you do with it - if it's your only source of income, you may have to pay pension insurance and such for yourself with it, but if you make no money from it, then it's same as being unemployed lol

[pure kettle]

I think it's different in my locale then.
Applying for what is equivalent to incorporation (Perseroan Terbatas), cost around $200 for initial fee, and probably subject to the taxes usual to inc'd businesses

[craggy nacelle]

There are typically different business types available. You don't need to have an inc

(usually)

Of course you are subject to taxes as a business for any revenue, that's a given. But if your revenue is 0 then there shouldn't really be any tax on that unless there's some really weird laws in your area lol

[chilly sundial]

i mean all of this is irrelevant anyway, as they said they can't make a company in their country

but i do agree making a company is good

just not before you've learned what you should do with one

and i mean

trading with a company

not just reserving the name

[pure kettle]

Well, granted, local tax laws has been weird and fuzzy most of the time

[craggy nacelle]

If you ever intend on selling anything it's usually required unless the sales figures are fairly low, but usually you don't need a business up front and you can just register one if/when you need to start receiving payments in that form

[chilly sundial]

yeah i plan on initially registering as a sole trader then moving to a company if needed

mainly because for me a limited company has a lot more requirements

[craggy nacelle]

Yeah sole trader/sole proprietorship as it's called here is usually more than enough for one man business when you're starting out

[chilly sundial]

like ill need to hire somewhere for a business address, cause im not that comfortable putting my home address in such easy view

[craggy nacelle]

you may be able to pay for a PO Box or something

[chilly sundial]

well technically its a partnership, but in the uk thats basically 2 sole traders working together with a written agreement

you you can get places that give you a business address that just forwards the mail to your house

but those are unnecessary costs in the meantime

as i am unlikely to recoup them

[craggy nacelle]

Yeah

[pure kettle]

Okay, we do have sole proprietor here as well, and there's no formality involved

[craggy nacelle]

Once you start having revenue you can usually start making tax deductions for business costs like a po box or such too, so it helps a bit at that point :)

[chilly sundial]

stuff like website hosting i can manage, but setting up a company is overkill for me, as it will cost a fair bit even in static management

if i do make somewhat decent money then i will go limited mainly for VAT returns

VAT return for something like software would be massive

[craggy nacelle]

Yeah those are usually intended as the simple entry level thing almost anyone can have

[chilly sundial]

say for maya which is like £3k a year, i can get £600 back as a business expense

thats why i say it's like crashing a car to become a better driver

[craggy nacelle]

lol

[chilly sundial]

cause sometimes there are static expenses even without trading

[craggy nacelle]

you can VAT register as a sole proprietorship here in Finland

which is definitely handy

[chilly sundial]

so having a failing company that just drains money, it doesnt make sense

id much rather learn how things work then do it

im comfortable enough in my knowledge of marketing to where i could do my sole trader thing, but a company is a different thing

filing public quarterly reports and such

[craggy nacelle]

at least here there is a difference between a stock traded company and a public stock traded company

tbh I'm not sure of the exact specifics of the differences, but yeah there's definitely more paperwork involved in a stock traded company than a sole proprietorship

[chilly sundial]

the uk we have ltds and llcs

[craggy nacelle]

plus you have to do accounting using the more complicated methodology which I forget what it was called

[chilly sundial]

the one i go for is a private company, so no stocks or anything

but running an ltd is gonna be a lot more hassle for me

so imma keep as sole trader, unless i have enough reason to switch

[craggy nacelle]

Yeah

[chilly sundial]

which would mostly be tax benefits

the goos thing about the uk is i can still hire people as a sole trader

so even if i need to pay for a junior programmer i can do that without being a company

[craggy nacelle]

Yeah same thing here, after a certain point in revenue it may become beneficial to declare it differently in taxes which is possible with a stock traded, but not with a sole proprietorship

[chilly sundial]

yeah

[craggy nacelle]

but it's a fairly high point comparatively, so unlikely to run into it right away

[chilly sundial]

but i would only switch when my income from games outweighs the running costs

and to a point where my quarterly report doesn't show gross income of like £10.50

[pure kettle]

I think here sole proprietors isn't officially recognised as company, so it could be difficult when dealing with int'l relations that expect registered company (e.g. devkit lending)

Though I guess specialty companies porting games to consoles like Panic Buttom exists

[chilly sundial]

yeah im not sure if they are in the uk

i dont think they are

but im not sure cause you still have to register with companies house

so if your registered with a thing called companies house i hope it counts

but yeah id need a business address, cause anyone could look up my company name and find my home address, which can be problematic for obvious reasons

[pure kettle]

I guess if you don't move house in longer term you can have it as company house/business address

[chilly sundial]

i mean even then

its dodgy at best

[pure kettle]

Which is a bummer for me because I'm still pretty much a nomad, yay.

[ruby ginkgo]

I am kinda interested in doing this kind of stuff as a full time, but I lack skill and experience. So where should I start?

[pure kettle]

See #instructions on how to post to job board channels.

[chilly sundial]

FWIW, if it's a money focused project, indie battle royales arent very popular, and tend to be quite difficult to make

[chilly sundial]

there are courses online for all aspects, learning unreal engine, e.g. UOL, blender, courses for audio etc.

only switch full time if you have money tho

indie dev is not a good money making field and is primarily luck based

so if you have a ton of savings, or your rich then go for it

also please don't crosspost

[hearty fern]

Sorry

I made cross-posts without reading instructions.

[chilly sundial]

its all good

[ruby ginkgo]

so like what is the different between graphic designer and game developer

[hearty fern]

Please feel free to remove if any issue.

[chilly sundial]

i'm not a mod so i don't hav e those perms, but it should be all cool

[hearty fern]

Ok 🙂

May I ask you in here: If anyone have made a fully functional PVP FPS shooter game, how long time did it take you?

[chilly sundial]

game developers is a broad term, but graphic designers typically make logos, promotional art, etc.

[chilly sundial]

as i said above, things like battle royales can take ages cause theyre complex machines

theyre not reccomended as indie projects because of the costs of mass server hosting

and the extensive networking knowledge needed

not to mention if people don't end up playing, then your entire gamemode becomes unplayable

[ruby ginkgo]

Like I want to pursue game development but the graphical side

[hearty fern]

True, we do have the funds for it though.

[chilly sundial]

do you like making 2d or 3d graphics

[hearty fern]

We are thinking about using Lyra

And then use skins, templates and remake the whole UI from Marketplace templates

[chilly sundial]

if you have funding then go for it, lyra will need a lot of extension for something like a battle royale however

[hearty fern]

This would make it playable at much cheaper cost & time than making it from scratch.

[hearty fern]

It wont be a 100v100 battle royale

It will be significantly smaller to start off with

[chilly sundial]

it certainly does give a lot of ground work, however, im not sure if it has multiplayer support, so some systems may need to be reworked

[chilly sundial]

ah that makes sense

[hearty fern]

True

[chilly sundial]

@ruby ginkgo

[ruby ginkgo]

oh my bad I thought it was for someone else

[ruby ginkgo]

3d

[chilly sundial]

nah i just forgot to reply to you lol

so for 3d graphics your looking at roles like environment art, character modelling, rigging, animating, texturing

so modelling houses and stuff would be more environment art

[pure kettle]

Doesn't seem like a good game, if it's just a bunch of asset flips.
I mean, you're competing against asset flip games.

[chilly sundial]

but if you like animation then id go for character animation

[hearty fern]

Is there any closer-to-ready solution that you can recommend?

[pure kettle]

Using marketplace asset is fine, but there's a line when it become plain asset flip

[chilly sundial]

for environment art you need to be comfortable with a range of styles so you need to be able to make buildings, cliffs, but also in various stylistic ways... definitely requires a solid understanding of 3D @ruby ginkgo

[chilly sundial]

it's not about a closer to ready solution, its about using ready made assets, making a game of all purchased asset store assets makes your game look low effort

[ruby ginkgo]

I am still a junior in hs so I was thinking about majoring in it

[chilly sundial]

using close to ready solutions and marketplace assets is fine if you adapt them

maybe i downloaded a character, but i tweaked him a bit

[hearty fern]

100%

[chilly sundial]

or i blended this marketplace house with my environment

[hearty fern]

This is the plan

[ruby ginkgo]

what course would you recon I take as a major

[hearty fern]

We will essentially utilize all readily made solutions and tweak them in order to be customized to the game, and also not "recognizable" as asset flipping

[chilly sundial]

i mean i can't speak for majoring in 3d art, as im mostly self taught

a lot of your hire-ability for 3d art comes down to an extensive portfolio

[ruby ginkgo]

true

[chilly sundial]

get yourself an artstation account

and just start making models and renders

but in several style

[hearty fern]

Where are the best platforms to find exceptional Unreal developers/ game makers?

[ruby ginkgo]

do I need to go to college for this type of career

[chilly sundial]

maybe you want a stylized medieval house, model it, make renders of it with lighting, no lighting, and wireframe

[pure kettle]

Job vacancy sites.

[chilly sundial]

upload it

[pure kettle]

Also #instructions

[chilly sundial]

not necessarily but it may help

[pure kettle]

Though to be fair nobody's reading channel description, so, ehhh....

[chilly sundial]

you can definitely land a job with a good portfolio and no degree

[ruby ginkgo]

what about the codding aspects of things, I think going to college would help in foundation

[chilly sundial]

but as i said above

if your a graphic designer you wont ever see coding

you make the models

your job ends there

someone else will texture them

someone else will put them in the environment

someone else will make em work

[hearty fern]

You mean like Upwork?

I have already but most of the applicants are of low quality. We also offered $100/ hour. Yet, most are low quality applicants.

[ruby ginkgo]

But what if I also want to be that so called "someone else"

[chilly sundial]

you cant

you cant do 2 jobs

maybe in an indie studio, but the pay will be worse

if you wanan be a generalist solo dev

professionally you stick to a role

[ruby ginkgo]

What would pay more?

[chilly sundial]

a professional artist 99% of the time will be stuck in maya

[pure kettle]

What's your studio?

[chilly sundial]

professional

solo dev will likely not work out for money, and indie devs pay worse cause theyre low budget... AAA is where the money is, but its hard to get into, hence the need for a great portfolio

[hearty fern]

I don't have a real studio - we have established brands in E-commerce and I am in charge of a new venture project apart from the main branch that will be a Crypto based game (this game).

= essentially no experience in this at all.

[chilly sundial]

that's where you need to choose, cause AAA don't tend to have generalists, you want a master of one skill, not a jack of all trades

[ruby ginkgo]

To summerize... I should get a degree as an 3d artist? along with coding experience

[chilly sundial]

i never said that at all

[pure kettle]

Crypto based game
Hmm... I don't know what to say really...

[chilly sundial]

i said a good enough portfolio can get you in

a degree may help

but im not professionally in that fiedl so idk

i just know a portfolio really does help

if you wanna major in 3d art go for it

[hearty fern]

Wrongly formed: it will have some aspects in the economy that is blockchain based (like skins etc).

[ruby ginkgo]

Ya basically my plan

[chilly sundial]

even with a degree, you wont get a job with no portfolio

[pure kettle]

Sorry, but I have to go for the night, if you excuse me.

[ruby ginkgo]

true

[chilly sundial]

in fact a lot of universities wanna see your portfolio before they accept you

[ruby ginkgo]

oh

[hearty fern]

Haha did you find it redicolous or what

[chilly sundial]

some won't let you in unless you can demonstrate your skills

already

doesnt have to be a large portfolio

just enough to show an interest

but thats why i say start building one now

even if you make 1 render a week

[ruby ginkgo]

I mean I have done some renders in past. But, wouldn't call it portfolio worthy...

[chilly sundial]

and land a professional job in 6 years from now... then thats 312 pieces to a portfolio

pick the best ones

[shut token]

You might be surprised at what is considered "portfolio worthy"

[chilly sundial]

show em off

[chilly sundial]

yup

[chilly sundial]

minecraft renders dont count

[ruby ginkgo]

But this has bascially no 3d art

[chilly sundial]

for 3d art you make the models

they need to be renders of your own assets youve made

not builds in a game

[ruby ginkgo]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/674928971120377865.webp?size=48&quality=lossless

[chilly sundial]

i mean hell my first portfolio render was this

just update ti with the best stuff at your time

[pure kettle]

Close the Minecraft, open up Blender, and do things

[chilly sundial]

mind ya my portfolio is stagnant cause im pursuing a CS degree but yk

actually no i do have more but it was on a separate website

i did also have this but abandoned my artstation beforehand

[ruby ginkgo]

does it have to all 3d art?

Like what about texturing ?

[chilly sundial]

if your going for a 3d art role then ye

that is 3d art

you want your models to be textured

just posting standard matcap models probably wont do too many favours

[ruby ginkgo]

ya

[chilly sundial]

my portfolio pieces typically have a lit rtextured render, an untextured render, and a wireframe render

that demonstrates your texturing skills, topology skills, and your ability to use geometry

[ruby ginkgo]

lemme find this mountain i made

[chilly sundial]

that was another render of the same point, that would look really boring with no shaders

[ruby ginkgo]

whats a good software to use for 3d models?

[pure kettle]

Blender.

[ruby ginkgo]

I have been using c4d for a couple for months

[pure kettle]

Maybe something like this for starting as well, or donuts, whatever
(tbh I'm noob at modelling, just doing it because I'm burnt out)

[chilly sundial]

blender is good for hobbyists

[ruby ginkgo]

I tried using it, but I got really used to c4d and couldnt get learn a new software

[chilly sundial]

but in the industry you will use maya and 3ds

[pure kettle]

To each their own, really.

[ruby ginkgo]

whats 3ds btw?

[chilly sundial]

3ds max is another autodesk modelling software

[pure kettle]

I'm good at Blender, you're good at C4D. What's the loss here anyway

[chilly sundial]

again if you can model in c4d thats fine

[pure kettle]

Maya can do modelling as well, right?

[chilly sundial]

ye maya is one

the two are very similar tbh

i prefer maya over 3ds

but 3ds ive heard is better in certain situations

what situations idk, cause i dont like 3ds

[ruby ginkgo]

I used worldcreater for making the model itself and textured it with c4d

[pure kettle]

Autodesk suite is weird, really, lol

[chilly sundial]

but just know that in the industry, you WILL most likely be using maya

its the industry standard

if you wanna start learning it maya lite is about $250 a year

unless you wanna pay the full price of $3000 a year for the full version

[chilly sundial]

so what models can you make since worldcreator is just terrain gen

[pure kettle]

Usually Maya is paid for by the company who hire you

[chilly sundial]

it seems like you wanna pursue 3d art, but havent actually made any assets

[chilly sundial]

ye but not if you wanna practice it

i mean as a junior theyll teach you it i suppose

[pure kettle]

There was a legally version of Maya, isn't it? Was it Maya LT? Or am I confusing it with a limited time programme?

[chilly sundial]

maya LT is just cheaper maya

made primarily for games

so it cuts out a lot of the stuff for film

again like $250 a year

which can be paid monthky

[pure kettle]

TBH this doesn't say much

[chilly sundial]

you still havent answered my questions

im realllly tryina help here

[ruby ginkgo]

im sorry which question?

[pure kettle]

#career-chat message

[ruby ginkgo]

terrain mostly I mean

[pure kettle]

What about other object that you made from scratch?

[ruby ginkgo]

1 sec need to look through my folders

[chilly sundial]

but with that, world creator demonstrates little knowledge of modelling capability

[ruby ginkgo]

oof thats basically it, I mostly started 3d rendering with minecraft renders

[chilly sundial]

so if you wanna be a 3d artist then you better get modelling stuff

or just be a texture artist

but thats less 3d and more texturing a uv map given to you

[ruby ginkgo]

ya.. I am not that good at texturing

[pure kettle]

There must be Blender Donut equivalent for C4D

[ruby ginkgo]

prob

my first render was minecraft so I never really went through the basics

[pure kettle]

I'm not going to force you to use Blender (but that's what I'm good at, really), but consider look up beginner tutorials for C4D in the similar vein of Donuts

Why donuts? I think it's because donut is a torus, and a torus is already a primitive shape, so a good starting point. And it looks tasty.

[ruby ginkgo]

alright Ill do that thanks for the help

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/727643968908820572.webp?size=48&quality=lossless

[chilly sundial]

no problem

everyone starts somewhere

[ruby ginkgo]

ya

[chilly sundial]

but also dont be ashamed to switch fi you dont like 3d art in the end

[ruby ginkgo]

https://youtu.be/Zqfy9c1Gseg could this be considered 3d art?

[chilly sundial]

it is, but again 3d art is vague

that focuses more onthe animation side

a course for 3d art will primarily look at asset creation, e.g. 3d modelling

so making houses, crates, chairs, giant flying spaceships

whatever

it will touch on other aspects most liekly

[ruby ginkgo]

what programing language do most game designers use?

[chilly sundial]

Designers do not

Programmers do

[pure kettle]

Depends on the engine, perhaps. Game designers don't do as much programming as gameplay engineers/programmers

[chilly sundial]

Designers may make simple stuff in bp

But nothing advanced

Deisgners mainly plan out and put things together

[pure kettle]

Even if there's coding bit, that depends on what scripting language the programmers of the engine implements

[chilly sundial]

Yeah

But all of the roles you are looking at will likely never see a day of code

Cause its not in the needs of an artist

[ruby ginkgo]

hm.

[pure kettle]

In the case of UE, that's BP, and some BlueprintCallable C++ functions made by the programmers.
Some studios who use UE4 or other engines might use Lua or other higher level scripting languages

That'd be as far as scripting goes for designers. They'll say to the programmers after prototyping the design in BP, "bro, program this into C++, will ya?"

(Well, not exactly say that, but you get the idea)

[ruby ginkgo]

Idk why but I dont want to devote my self to only 3d artist

[pure kettle]

If you can take the other skills, go for it!

[ruby ginkgo]

I mean I can see myself as going for more game developer feel

there is coding, some 3d stuff and some decision making

somewhere is middle

[pure kettle]

There's nothing inherently wrong with being a "generalist", provided that you can take the time to learn other skills.

At the very least you could have better understanding on what to expect and what to do when you take more focused roles, especially with game development where things has to be rendered in real time.

[plucky hatch]

Many designers also do this (code, make decisions etc), many roles are not just black and white, it’s also dependent on the studio you work in.

You may start as a 3D artists but that job leads to many places.

[pastel estuary]

you should have removed them yourself <_<

[tidal moth]

the games industry as a whole generally does not employ generalists. people come in as specialists. over time, with seniority, you may become more of a generalist, but ultimately it's very much a T person profession

e.g. you'd not expect an environment artist to do character art for instance

you're hired for a role first, and expected to fulfill that role

[chilly sundial]

yeah generalism is required as a solo dev, and some indie studios may want semi generalists like people who can handle modelling and animation, or people that can do code and ui etc. but its mostly specifics

[harsh brook]

judging by this you want to do VFX it is pretty broad in that you can do coding/modeling/shaders/particle work/all sorts of weird tech. I'd say it is the field that is most variable in day to day work.

[ruby ginkgo]

Ya

[ruby ginkgo]

True, I'll look into it as well

[proud spear]

I personally like the “dual class” roles like technical artist, gameplay programmer, UX designer, and more. Get to communicate and get things done using many disciplines

[harsh brook]

I'm probably biased because I'm in FX but I really don't think any field lets you wear this many hats. Closest I would say is Tech art but they usually get pigeon holed into an area as well these days.

[plucky hatch]

If you want to work with Unreal full time you are not relegated to solely the games industry. I work with Unreal everyday but don’t make games per-se, and most people on my team are generalists, able to do two or more things. I find it much more interesting personally.

[ruby ginkgo]

Cool

Ya I was thinking of pursuing something like game programmer or developer while learning unreal or similar things myself

[plucky hatch]

Ahh I meant Unreal and similar tools are used for many different things outside games, and having roles within those industries can be much more creative as you get the freedom to do multiple things, while from what I know the game industry is much more linear, you get hired to do one thing and one thing only.

Since January I’ve worked with Unreal for Volvo, Polestar, H&M, IKEA and now I’m doing a movie for Netflix. But still all with Unreal and using all the same workflows that you would for games, but things are a bit more flexible in the types of studios I work with, it’s much easier to be cross-discipline than just stuck in a silo. So food for thought, depends on what you want to do.

[pure kettle]

If you want to be more laborous with Unreal, then virtual production, product configurator, and filmmaking/cinematics are the way to go.

Though make sure you're given chance and time to do R&D if you're working for VP.
Back when 'rona was still fresh, I worked for event organiser, and it was a scramble situatuon, as on site live events were not viable. I barely got any time to do R&D with Unreal Engine for live events, and didn't have time to make templates. So for every completed events, the results were janky and I had to make things all over again.

[plucky hatch]

Oh we have lots of time for that, I have over 100 artists and developers so we make sure to dedicate a good chunk of time to R&D, both software, hardware and just general workflow stuff in general. Especially with the virtual production stuff that is proving quite a handful.

[pure kettle]

Marketing was pain

Barely got any time to do R&D and my income were down to 1/8th of the regular before 'rona hits

[plucky hatch]

Damn, yeah it’s not been a good 2 years for many areas.

I have mates who still have not been able to find work (they were older)

[pure kettle]

My income were cut down so low, I decided to just call it quits in 2021

[plucky hatch]

Did you not think about joining a studio instead of trying to keep going as a freelancer ?

[pure kettle]

I'm not freelancing, but still taking odd jobs.

At least I don't have recurring debt for the bills for now

[plucky hatch]

Well I hope things improve for you good luck 👍

[wild torrent]

is there a chat to get a freelancer in here?

[pastel estuary]

as in hiring? read the #instructions :)

[frigid prism]

earlier i meant to check out #instructions since this is a paid job

[pure kettle]

See #instructions on how to post to job board channels

[red dirge]

If I want to work in game development as a job for a studio; what university do I enter? Computer science? I’m worried il enter it and only job offers I get are for software

[plucky hatch]

Its a decisive subject but it’s not needed to go to University to get a job in a studio, it’s mainly portfolio based and that’s something you can do yourself, or at least on some short courses (1 year for example).

[red dirge]

Well I didn’t clarify much, I also want to work in another country besides my country bec it pays like shit in my career, I can’t just show Canada my portfolio and get a job there

[tidal moth]

what role do you want to work as?

because dependent on that there are different answers

[pure kettle]

Maybe any reputable university if you want easier visa access

[plucky hatch]

Ok, so you need a degree in order to get a Visa, that’s a different story.

[red dirge]

Yes that’s what I want, so does computer science get in me in that job industry or is computer science more to software devloepmt

[tidal moth]

computer science will teach you the basics, and if you're lucky, the mentality behind programming

the same programming is used across industries

[pure kettle]

I don't think the class matters if you're branching out later on, but computer science would be your safest bet for software engineering

[tidal moth]

if you want to do programming then I'd recommend going through that

[plucky hatch]

I think you are thinking about it in the wrong way, you need a degree to get a visa, and also increase your employment chances, but in itself a degree isn’t going to get you a studio job.

[pure kettle]

But yeah FWIW uni degree isn't necessary for the job

[red dirge]

And why would a studio accept me if I have a good portfolio and degree but not in country

[tidal moth]

it's fine, go to uni

it's not a big deal

no need to make a storm in a glass of water here

[sterile juniper]

Hey! I'm looking for a few people with the basic+ unreal engine skills for my project. Interested? Reach me in the DMs, I'll tell you a bit more.

[plucky hatch]

Surely the goal would be to get into a course in Canada as a foreign student,

[red dirge]

Is there no any “game design/dev” school/uni there?

[tidal moth]

#instructions

[pure kettle]

If you have easier access to CS uni, go for it

[tidal moth]

there are, but game design degrees are dubious at best

even if you want to do game design I'd recommend a CS or equivalent degree

[pure kettle]

I'd consider having access to a reputable CS uni at all is a huge chance

[tidal moth]

architecture is at the core of good systems, and good systems are made by good designers

[red dirge]

So if I get a CS degree and have a good portfolio I can get a job in game dev? I just don’t see anyone CS and in game dev, All go software

[pure kettle]

Not necessarily, but at least it'll help your migration/visa ordeal

[tidal moth]

the barrier to entry for most devs is huge. and the games industry pays much less than other industries

[plucky hatch]

In a nutshell yes, but I would say getting into Canada will be the biggest step.

That’s why I would say try and apply to a course in Canada, and go that route,

[tidal moth]

I mean if canada is where you want to go take it step by step

[pure kettle]

Those without a uni degree (like I am) will have much harder time working on different country

[red dirge]

Well I need to be in a uni to get to get a visa to go to Canada

[plucky hatch]

Can’t you apply for a student Visa to study in Canada ?

[tidal moth]

you can go to uni anywhere, get some work experience (even outside the industry) and then enter the industry in another country

nothing's stopping you

[red dirge]

I can but I’m more worried I won’t get a job there in game dev

[tidal moth]

it's nonsense to think there's only one way to solve this problem

[red dirge]

Bec if I get back to my country it will be hard going back to Canada to work in terms of money

[plucky hatch]

As others have said, take it one step at a time, what is more important to you, to live and work in Canada or to work in games development ?

[red dirge]

Living and working in any other country is more important than the job, I care more to get any chance to live outside my country and get a citizenship so I don’t go back, I’m worried that I study in Canada and after uni I don’t find a job in game dev then il go back to my country and then il be fucked bec il serve jail for “avoiding military” but id wish still working in game dev bec software isn’t my thing

[pure kettle]

You can take any other job in Canada, right?

[tidal moth]

which country are you in?

[chilly sundial]

Yeah youll likely be having to have another job while you apply

Its a tough industry to yet into

Scratch that you will need another job in the meantime

[red dirge]

Egypt mainly but I’m in Saudi rn and I can’t guarantee staying here, ofc I’d wish to work here in Saudi but pays like shit again

[tidal moth]

get a CS degree if you can then just settle for any country abroad first?

your first step doesn't have to be immediately in canada

[pure kettle]

Also I don't think Canada is all sunshine and rainbows anyway, but Canadians might disagree on that :P

[red dirge]

It doesn’t have to be Canada, if anyone can recommend something decent price, possible and somewhat not hard to get citizenship then that will work out

[tidal moth]

once you have CS degree you can see how things look. your options will be better. it'll be easier to get a general software dev job first, before getting into the industry

[plucky hatch]

Having worked in Universities in the UK and now in Sweden, I would advise to apply to a degree in the country you want to move too. The 3 years or more will count towards your citizenship, thats a big chunk of time.

[red dirge]

And safe country too

[tidal moth]

experience is everything in the industry

[red dirge]

Do want to make it clear, I want to study and work

[pure kettle]

The point is that you don't have to be too narrow on yourself

Always have more than one path if the ideal path didn't work out yet.

[tidal moth]

if you want to study abroad I'm sure you can get in with some credentials, but you'll need a lot of money for the yearly stipends

but if you can afford that then it's probably not that difficult

[red dirge]

It will be hard for Anything higher than 11,000 usd a year for uni only

[tidal moth]

then research universities that cost at most that much

[plucky hatch]

That does limit your choices a lot, especially for a foreign student unfortunately.

[chilly sundial]

^

Here in the uk (as thats what o have experience with) even citizens pay more than that

There will defo be places you can study at that price

But you should search

[tidal moth]

I don't personally know a lot about this, but I'm sure there are universities where 11k usd/year is possible. it's just about finding out which universities

look for opportunities

[chilly sundial]

^

Some unis have programs for foreign students too

I know my uni has some degree of help for foreign students

[red dirge]

Well is it easy to get a citizenship in the uk and work there?

[plucky hatch]

No, incredibly difficult

[tidal moth]

research this as well. but if you get into europe in general, moving between european states is much easier

[red dirge]

Then maybe not the best choice😓

[plucky hatch]

The rule of thumb is that we don’t hire someone from a visa country if we can find that same skill from a resident.

[chilly sundial]

Ye uk is one of the most expensive and toughest according to google

[tidal moth]

don't make decisions on a whim

[plucky hatch]

Elsewhere in Europe would be preferable

[tidal moth]

do the research yourself

[chilly sundial]

^

[tidal moth]

don't just take what is being said here at face value

[red dirge]

I’m just taking opinions I’m struggling to even know what uni do I get for a possible job in game dev

[chilly sundial]

Dont decide "i want this country either" not before you do ur research, things like the job market, living costs, universities etc

[tidal moth]

you already have some search parameters: 11k usd/year max, CS degree, safe country. time to take a look at a university list and speak with some counselors who are experienced with this

[red dirge]

If I can’t get a job in game dev easy I have a different choice of flight school, I work in it until I can make a studio or company with somewhat decent income, I don’t want to work in game dev studios ether way, Il have to just to go to the country

[plucky hatch]

I would suggest Sweden where I am now, it has very liberal immigration policies, education is cheap (if you were from anywhere in the EU you could study here for free) and it has a thriving game dev scene.

[chilly sundial]

You definitely need to do your research

But also

[tidal moth]

those same counselors will also potentially have contacts to universities that can help you find the university you want to study at easier

[red dirge]

What about language tho.

[tidal moth]

sweden's universities aren't free for foreigners

[chilly sundial]

It seems you want all the jobs and stuff easy, it is going to be hard, but you will succeed if you keep at it

[plucky hatch]

Indeed, but they are cheaper than a lot of EU countries

[red dirge]

I don’t want it easy, my only goal is not to be in my country

[tidal moth]

again I would caution against recommending any particular country

[plucky hatch]

I’ve been here 6 years now I only know English

[tidal moth]

and instead recommend a method for finding the solution

[chilly sundial]

But you did say if i cant get a gamedev job easy, im just saying if it is gamedec you want it will be hard

Its hard to break the barrier but after that its easier

But still

Do your research

Countries are wildly different

[red dirge]

The country thing il do my own research and for other things I need, I’m just saying having a portfolio and a degree will help in get a job opportunity in game dev to get a work visa for a country right?

[tidal moth]

yes

[chilly sundial]

Yes

A degree will likely help massively

[red dirge]

How hard is it to work in this field, yes maybe a studio won’t be as hard but is it possible, should I continue, I’m still 2 years until uni building a portfolio and experience until work.

[chilly sundial]

Its possible

Its just harder to get into than other industries

Very possible

[red dirge]

So there is hope

[chilly sundial]

And a degree and good portfolio will make it easier for sure

[plucky hatch]

Its really hard and very competitive, even more so for you as you have the extra challenge of getting a visa, so you will need to push it the extra mile to beat the competition.

[chilly sundial]

^

[tidal moth]

you have a lot of time before then to get good. if you're 2 years from uni, spend some time acquainting yourself with programming already now

[pure kettle]

For what it's worth, there's always greener pastures.

[chilly sundial]

A lot of people want it too, so you need to demonstrate that your better basically

[tidal moth]

but yeah the barrier to entry is extreme

though it's easier now than it used to be

the great resignation has thrown things around

[pure kettle]

If your ideal of game dev job didn't work out, what's your next ideal job would be?

[red dirge]

Pilot

[tidal moth]

go be a pilot then 😂 I'm sure you'll be happier

[chilly sundial]

But also dont forget a cs degree can get you into more than just gamedev

[tidal moth]

it's not going to make you a good pilot though 😂

[chilly sundial]

very true

but planes have computers :p

[tidal moth]

they also have 100+ things you can switch on and off from what I've seen

[chilly sundial]

plane cockpits are hella complex

cool tho