#career-chat

1 messages · Page 94 of 1

desert cradle
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Hello guys
Has anyone of you been able to get to Epic Games Store? I only get the "Thank you for your interest" but nothing like "Declined" or "Accepted". Did you maybe find some alternative way to get there?

granite solar
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Would studios usually consider college years as "x years of Professional experience" or "x years of industry experience"? College professors tend to say that studio's do consider that as professional experience, but it doesn't seem plausible to me. 4 years in college is going to be significantly different than 4 years in the actual industry I would imagine.

lilac walrus
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Studios do not consider qualifications to be equivalent to professional experience at all

granite solar
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Yeah I imagined that would be the reality of that. Working with 3 people for 15 weeks doesn't really compare to working with a dozen+ for years lol.

granite solar
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Is it likely to expect to be able to land a full-time job (specifically junior/entry level) at a studio as a programmer within a year of graduating college? I'll be graduating with 2 bachelors in CS, one focused on general software dev and info management (a lot of database stuff) and the other focused on game development. I've been using Unreal for 2 years, used Unity for 2 years prior to that. I've got a lot of side projects outside of college, most are just proto-types though. I've been running a funded on-campus game dev studio for the last two years, so I've got experience of working and managing teams up to a dozen others on ~15 week projects.

Just trying to get a realistic feel for what to expect, because I have been quite optimistic tbh. This is a resume that's outdated but landed me an interview, at least, back in March

📎 ResumeNOPII.pdf
ashen lynx
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I think, just comming out of college and claiming to being able and having previous experience in managing dozen of people is a gross overstatement, for the only things you are expected to manage at this point is yourself and your time. Yes though, it is realistic to get a job within one year. @granite solar

granite solar
desert cradle
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I'd say having already made something, even if mildly popular is way better then spending that time learning all stuff just to be A++++ in school. I've actually met one electrotechnic guy with a degree asking me(at that time elementary school) how to wire a circuit for flashing custom software there(even after having it detailed step by step on github, where everyone else was doing fine), like whats the point you have all these schools if you cant practially use it.

granite solar
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Well all my C++ and UE4 knowledge is self-taught. My college only covers Unity and C# (which is subpar for a game dev major imo) shrug I don't have any officially published projects unfortunately, but mainly game jams and proto-types are what I have as a portfolio.

woeful sonnet
granite solar
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I had an interview at a studio called Undying Games back in March but it was my lack of multiplayer programming experience that shot me in the foot :/ My next personal project is a "basic" little co-op game that hopefully will give me some more of that experience. But that's a large reason why I run the studio here at the college - to encourage fellow students to build up a portfolio outside school work.

gentle stone
granite solar
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That's nice to hear 🙂

normal sundial
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There are quitea number of different roles in the description, if you're talking AAA. Tech artist, technical animator, VFX artist, Cinematic Scripter. But if you're talking indie Tech Artist is likely the closest thing.

normal sundial
granite solar
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I see. and I'll have two sheets of paper pepoevil I just want to be a game programmer man

granite solar
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I'm located in the US and my first job is almost guaranteed to be in the country. Couldn't imagine being able to land an out of country job as my first step in the professional industry lol.

celest hemlock
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Im in Europe so I guess its more understandable here 😄

lilac walrus
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this feels like spam

steady pewter
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It is an advertisement.

vagrant brambleBOT
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:triangular_flag_on_post: PaulPM#9908 received strike 1. As a result, they were muted for 10 minutes.

gleaming adder
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Hello, I am here with a secondary account just in case it gets seen. I have been working for a so called "studio" for almost 2 years now. We attempted to make mmo/survival type typical disaster which I was not smart enough to walk away at first. But the job paid well and I kept going, but recently game launched and it was a disaster unfortunately but also expected. By the way our team consists of; 1 Game Developer(Me), 1 2D Artist(UI,Icons,Splash, etc), Founder(Jack of all but also not), and someone who created database entries. Anyways I worked here for a while and even if the project was a failure I learned much valuable things. I learned how not to do game development, I learned how to work with big systems. But I lacked feedback on my performance so I am not even sure if I did good, which lead to slowing my improvement down. Anyways we launched the game and game is a failure(High Refund Rate btw). Anyways founder wanted to continue the project a bit more and we did, but now he tells me that we should switch our game to co-op so we can save ourselves. Biggest problems with this wanna be studio of ours is it had no design in mind. Imagine someone telling you something along these lines: Oh Assasin`s Creed its nothing there are assets for it you can easily do. Oh we can always make simulation games if I wanted to make money etc. . Anyways Im here telling my frustrations. Hoping to hear some comments about it. Thank you.

woeful sonnet
gleaming adder
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I am not sure about that, we have an investor on going already

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We lacked plans I did shit ton of work, I think more than a single person should

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but I wanted to

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but working for a long time like this without actual plans of the game

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made me really mad about it

woeful sonnet
gleaming adder
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yeah maybe its about money but hear this

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they think game is good

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they wanted me to make the servers openable and controllable via panel or something

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game has noone playing in it

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they are delusional if you ask me

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I was as well when I started this but Im no more

woeful sonnet
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🤔 What are the reasons for the high refunds? I’m curious. Is it because of game play, no driving plot, sub-par graphics, too many bugs…?

gleaming adder
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If you want to talk about it I can link you via DM

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you can judge it for yourself why :?

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:/

woeful sonnet
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I’m just curious because sometimes a new supporter / investor enters the game (pun intended), and it can take them a little while to realize the current solution is not the best solution.

gleaming adder
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Sent you the game info

gleaming adder
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Im gonna message you with my main account on discord

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We can continue from there if you like

scenic moon
# gleaming adder Hello, I am here with a secondary account just in case it gets seen. I have been...

I once fell into a sink trap just like that, except it sounds like your "pseudio" made it way further then mine did. A top individual left Microsoft recently after 30 years or something like that, his passing advice was "Only work where you can grow, I've reached my ceiling here". Looking back, I mentally reference my experience all the time, it was a very valuable learning experience, and taught me (like you said) how not to do development, and also what kinds of red flags to look out for in projects. I was extremely frustrated at the time, especially because I felt I could have been spending my time so much more productively over that span, but overall I'm glad it happened to me then so it (hopefully) won't happen to me now. Cheers 🙂

steady pewter
pastel estuary
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snips

mild gust
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I traditionally classify myself as an eccentric scientist.

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The eccentric label comes from a joke. There was a radio announcement that someone is driving on the wrong side on the highway. And one driver exclaims: only one? There are hundreds of them! The moral of the story being that one driver was not like the other ones, the centric ones, so he was ex-centric. phew, explaining jokes is cumbersome.

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Anyways, besides being eccentric and scientist, I'm also disabled, which leads to a predictable less than average social integration ability.

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I find it difficult to accept fuzzy notions, such as good enough or sometimes, because my training immediately starts asking things like: what does it mean sometimes? Is it asymptote to never or is it asymptote to always, which leads to confusion and miscommunication...

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I tried to sit in meetings long ago, and the majority of words I heard were fuzzy notions that convey no relevant or specific synthetic information, so I start to count random simple multiplications in my head, to pass the time, usually with numbers bigger than 10, for example 13 multiplied by 17, etc.

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I'm wondering what are my realistic chances to successfully participate in a project. As I usually work on unorthodox projects by myself for myself to pass the time, I appear to be good enough (heh) in a scientific position, videogames related. I am financially secure, and I am in a long-term relationship with a nonscientist, but it would be nice to have some place in the social world of videogames development together with others using less fuzzy notions and more scientific methods.

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Anyways, random musing...

nova tartan
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Working on a team will drive you mad, because game development has an endless stream of compromises for time.
It's a creative field and people want to release their project at some point, so there will be a LOT of "it's good enough"

lilac walrus
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I might suggest that 'good enough' is all anything ever will be, because it can always theoretically be better

turbid berry
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Which language is more demanding now days? According to jobs/career.
C++
C# ?

royal lintel
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Do you mean more in demand? Depends on the industry. Both are in demand in general.

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Every major language is in demand to some degree (to the point that if you're decent at it, you can probably find a job). You shouldn't really be choosing which one to study based on that if that's what you're asking - it depends on what you want to do.

woeful sonnet
desert pier
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how good/trustworthy are the fiverr jobs, where they make a blueprint or a game for you based on your description?

wanton finch
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how has game development changed your life?

steady pewter
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It ruined it.

digital gate
signal parrot
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So when do you think that a spiritual Successor becomes copywrite infringement? Like what if the game was never released?

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For example, if I saw the original Prey 2 and was like "I like the idea of a human bounty hunter on an alien planet" and basically made the same gameplay, would that constitute infringement despite them not releasing it for almost ten years now?

craggy nacelle
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if you copy ideas you're usually fine, eg. there's a million doom clones and a million mario clones

steel creek
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ideas are cheap; execution is everything.

safe plank
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What is a good sample project to learn ue4 online programming. I am good with c++ networking and starting in ue4. I have partially understood an online document UE4_Network_Compendium_by_Cedric_eXi_Neukirchen.pdf

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What game genre has most complex ue4 network programming

pastel estuary
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mmorpg or anything mmo really

flat gazelle
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Or a twitchy e-sport game.

lilac walrus
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twitchy e-sport mmo?

steady pewter
flat gazelle
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No, but mmos tend to be mor forgiving performance wise. Nobody in wow cares if there's a two frame delay.

pastel estuary
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well... I still play some ragnarok online sometimes, and they would wine that such a delay could mean 1 less attack before a boost runs out or not.
heck, some even moved countries to be closer to the server XD

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def a minority group, but yea

steady pewter
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Only greys don't consider latency.

lone plank
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To be the most flexible though, I'd recommend C and c++ (Objective C was used by apple)

pure flame
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But is now swapped out almost entirely for Swift which is much better to work with than Objective-C

tidal moth
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HLSL

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gfx programmers are small gods

tidal moth
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in tandem with cpp for renderers

pure kettle
scenic moon
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last year, someone in vc was showing us how they used HLSL in niagara for one of the recent star trek movies, so take that "at best" with a grain of salt

royal lintel
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I don't think anyone is saying HLSL is useless (it very much isn't). It's just not something you would specialize in alone - it'd be as part of working as a tech artist, graphics programmer, etc - all of which have other skills you absolutely need in addition to HLSL.

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There are lots of positions that will require knowing HLSL, but very few that you will be qualified for if it's the only thing you know.

pure kettle
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Also it's an odd thing that many people in gamedev space seem to be either unaware or disregarding demoscene and its goals to pull off unusual realtime effects.

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I'd argue that demoscene's no longer just cracktro scrollers, and at least in PC space, it's either the best realtime visual effect in small size (< 1MB) or the best presentation of realtime visual effect engineering, unlimited to size.

Several code demosceners found their way to professional gamedev, VFX, and/or more general tech industries.

flat gazelle
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The swedish games industry was born from the demoscene. But that was almost 30 years ago.

tidal moth
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when I think demoscene I think winamp visualizations

steel creek
flat gazelle
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Never claimed it did?

steel creek
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But that was almost 30 years ago. this implies it. Either you dont know, now you do, or you implied it has come and went, and now you know it hasnt

flat gazelle
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No I implied the demo scene used to be a big driving force of the industry. Its not these days. I've worked with tons of demo people so I'm reasonably caught up on the state of it.

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Though to be fair it was mostly people from The Silents, Fairlight and various smaller groups who aren't that active now.

cunning needle
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anyone tired to get thier game on epic launcher?

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if so do you need tax info if your game is free with no way to make money?

arctic flint
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isn't the demoscene more about getting out the most of the least amount of space used?

craggy nacelle
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That's one part of it because the scene started on machines with low specs

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The other part of it was just making cool effects or things you might not be expecting the hardware to be able to do

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in Finland they actually put demoscene into the national UNESCO cultural heritage list

lavish lagoon
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Anyone here working with UE for VR, more specifically for games? Would love to ask some questions about building momentum for that career path

lilac walrus
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unfortunately, I would probably start with the assumption that it's probably not a viable career path, and whilst it may become one, it currently isn't and might not be on in future

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but on the other hand, VR game dev isn't special, so you're basically looking at a normal game development path anyway

lavish lagoon
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Yeah, I guess that's what I'm trying to understand--whether there will be a special role in the future for VR. Maybe that would fall under something like UI/UX or interaction design specifically for VR

ashen lynx
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There is already such specialization. But the skillset is so niche that it is like shooting yourself in the knee making this your career choice. @lavish lagoon

fierce tree
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If you look beyond just game development, I think it will be quite the demand for VR knowledge outside the games industry. And that might be a much more secure job than game developer.

flat gazelle
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General VR more secure than game dev?

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If you stretch it to XR, maybe in some parts of the world I guess. But other than that, I don't see that happening.

placid forge
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Can you Publish a game at age 14

woeful sonnet
rapid iron
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Hey I am a VR dev looking (non gaming) at transitioning to gamedev in a few years (hopefully).

I have some major doubts regarding how I would be going about this and I could really use some help.

indigo crystal
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Hay im a trying to start up a game dev career but I dont know how to do it dose anyone have any ideas for me?

digital gate
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Do the thing. Do the thing until you stop feeling silly. Do the thing until you don't need tutorials. Do the thing until you can dream up ideas that challenge you, and then keep doing the thing until you can tackle other's ideas. Do the thing some more. Start doing the thing in ways that you can easily show off.

Do the thing while trying to land interviews where you will talk about doing the thing. Do the thing for a studio. Continue doing the thing until you start considering doing the thing for a small studio you run. Either keep doing the thing for others' studios, or start doing the thing for your studio.

Do the thing until you lose the joy, and then find it again.

Just go do the thing.

pastel estuary
scenic moon
wary idol
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Interesting things

viscid tusk
waxen phoenix
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Anybody here have experience managing a small-medium size team? 15-25 people?
If so, I'm wondering what sorts of solutions you implement in order to increase the wellbeing, effectiveness and productivity of your team

tawdry rune
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I have a lot of experience managing teams of that size including running one right now

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that's a very broad question

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I think the way you run a team has to be reflective of your values and your constraints

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some of the really important things are stuff like transparency & flexibility

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give people the space to be productive, set a good example on the things that are important

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we use Discord to run the team, so a simple example of transparency is doing things like having design discussions in a channel that everyone can see

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that way people have context for decisions

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if a call is made in a voice meeting, make sure notes are put into the appropriate channel

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flexibility literally means keep the schedule flexible. It doesn't mean we don't have times when we need to get together, but people are free to spread their work out, go AFK during the day etc.

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giving people agency over their work is also important

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to me a game is reflective of the team and even though I have final call on design I still let people choose their own direction and try to embrace team members ideas as much as possible

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for accountability we use a "virtual standup"

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basically write what you did yesterday, what you are working on today

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I'll stop now but those are some basics

waxen phoenix
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All great stuff @tawdry rune much appreciated. I'm the head of a very small group right now and as the team grows I want to be the best leader I can for them So I've been thinking about things like work hours flexibility, remote work, etc. We just secured a physical office space so going forward I'm really trying to make sure I can do my job as best I can to make the teams jobs easier

tawdry rune
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running a physical office also has it's own set of things

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we went completely virtual for a lot of reasons

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but in the office some tips would be:

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  1. Don't be cheap, supply good drinks/coffee/snacks. It doesn't need to be extravagant but take people's preferences into account and keep it well stocked
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  1. Treat the office as a place for work, not a clubhouse. Don't encourage people to "hang out" at the office after hours unless they are actively working. I've seen multiple companies degenerate effectively into LAN parties
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  1. Be cognizant that different kinds of people have different space and working requirements. Some people need a quiet office, others thrive in an open environment. If people can transition between those in some cases it can work well.
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  1. Make sure the furniture is comfortable and ergonomic. I suggest giving everyone a "chair budget" so they can select their own chair as this is often a very personal choice.
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Note these are far from absolute rules, just things I've seen in the past 30 years of making games

woeful sonnet
waxen phoenix
# tawdry rune Note these are far from absolute rules, just things I've seen in the past 30 yea...

Thank you a ton for all the tips. We're definitely at an interesting crossroads in human history as far as working is concerned, and I'm trying to be super cognizant and thoughtful about the whole remote work thing. I''ve always found working in person to be preferable, so I'm a tad anxious about how effective team communication, organization and productivity will be if 1/2 want to be remote and 1/2 want to be at the site. It's gonna be an interesting ride for sure

waxen phoenix
woeful sonnet
tawdry rune
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I think there are some advantages to having a physical office for sure

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for me personally I just don't want to go into an office every day so it's a bit of a lifestyle choice to just try and make it work

waxen phoenix
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Totally understandable. We have some equipment that necessitates a large working area with multiple people to use, like recording booths and motion capture tech. So heres to hoping that it all works out swimmingly. Definitely gonna keep all the tips in mind when things ramp up!

crystal stag
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quick question for yall, i dont want to have a set paycheck for my indie studio, i was gonna make it so everyone gets a cut of the game's profits, like 15% for a 4 person company like mine. also, im running a cooperative so we all get a share of the business.

nova tartan
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how will you or your other employees eat or pay rent?

crystal stag
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we were gonna have other jobs until the company takes off, and we were gonna live together and split the rent

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i'm doing the company with myself, my boyfriend, a guy from my work and my friend from another state. we're moving to NH together and running the company out of a loft

flat gazelle
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That's a common setup.

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It's usually called rev share or scam, depending on the endgoal.

crystal stag
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scam?

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im not trying to scam anyone

flat gazelle
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Either intentional or by incompetence. The end result is the same. The project disappears and nobody gets paid.

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Not saying you are. You might be the exception that proves the rule

crystal stag
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that makes a lot of sense, how would you reccommend i go about not making it a scam?

flat gazelle
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Get funding

crystal stag
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i'm not sure if this counts as funding, but i have a trust fund i could put towards the company

flat gazelle
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If you are good enough to pull the project off, getting funded by vcs or the like should be straightforward. If you are not, you are asking others to take the risk instead. That makes it close to a scam by default.

crystal stag
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vcs?

flat gazelle
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Venture Capital

crystal stag
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i'll look into it

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also, an LLC is all i really have to have, besides a business bank account right?

pure kettle
crystal stag
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i just have no way to pay my employees, since im not making amy money yet

woeful sonnet
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Traditionally in a new startup, the initial money you will use to pay you and your employees’ salaries will come from investors and not from the product itself.

Types of investors in their respective order:

  • friends, family, and fools (3Fs)
  • angel investors
  • venture capitalists (VCs)
  • IPO
    (IPO should only be considered after a company has successfully scaled)

You can determine how much funding to ask for by estimating production costs and then adding 20-50% as a buffer.

(Not well versed enough in indie game dev, but this is how I understand it in classical B2B and B2C startups.)

flat gazelle
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A couple of points to consider. Are you good enough to build a game? The people who joins you in working for free, do you expect them to be, when there is a ton of paid positions out there?
If you are not sure about these, do you think your project will be big enough to make the money back? If you are not 100% convinced of this, you are enticing people to work for you, eith the promise of payment, that you don't think will come. That is a scam.

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However if you are in fact 100%convinced, you should be able to pitch the project to people who can fund you and thus, allow you to pay your employees.

woeful sonnet
pastel estuary
pastel estuary
unkempt aurora
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I dont usually message in this server but I was wondering If anyone had any advice on colleges for someone like me who wants to work for a game development company and is very driven with coding and doing that type of crap in my free time. I have looked at some colleges for both computer science and just straight game development and am just a little on the ropes on what I should do. If you could DM me with any advice(or just message in here) that would be great, im a hs student right now with a 3.58 avg GPA and like I said ive already dipped my feet into game development and coding. (I am also very good when it comes to math, I love algebra and am taking AP Calculus right now and it is quite a fun and easy class!)

tawdry rune
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I think you need to figure out your goals a bit more otherwise it's hard to give advice

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it used to be that I recommended people just a regular comp-sci degree, but there are some decent game schools out there

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do you have time / money to go to school? Or would you prefer to get right into working?

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demand is high for people wil coding skills if you can already work at a professional, or close to it, level

unkempt aurora
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When it comes to my goals I am very confident in knowing what I want out of college, I want to work for a game development company more on the side of programming(think companys like 343, bungie, etc.) and my plan is to also do my own thing as an idie developer on the side and see where that can take me. I do have time and money to go to college and would honestly rather do that then get into working right out of high school. As for coding I am no where near professinoal but I know that I have the drive to do it and for example I am by far the best coder out of anyone in the coding class im taking in school right now and even the teacher has asked me questions on stuff that I know and have figured out that he has not.

tawdry rune
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Allright so go to school, get a compsci degree and all of your options will be open

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you can learn the game dev stuff on your own on the side

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an alternate plan would be to go to a solid game dev school like Digipen if you want to learn the nitty gritty of game dev in more of a team setting

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but for a programmer a solid comp sci degree + your own experiments on the side will leave you in a good place

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make sure actually learn the low level details of how the computer works

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things like memory architecture (how caches work, how data moves around in memory)

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I highly recommend C++ if you want to be an engine programmer

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Bungie uses C++ extensively (amongst other languages)

tidal moth
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most studios will use cpp in some form or other. at least when it comes to games that need to be performant on console or PC

unkempt aurora
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Thank you very much, ya im applying to Digi pen like right now and I also applied to Michigan state who I know also have a great game dev school and am going to start looking at some other computer science schools and weigh my options. The only concern I have is how a computer science degree (as ive been told) does not work on programming but mainly works on theory's which being in AP calc we have already dipped into and I don't mind them but I really just wanna program!

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And I would be 100% ok with doing theorys but I also wanna do coding to

tidal moth
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CS is fine as a degree. most programmers I've met have had CS, some kind of software development degree or even math or physics degrees from uni. the degree itself doesn't really matter as long as you can perform the work. it'll work in your favor if you ever need to apply for a visa though

tawdry rune
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you need the theory if you want to do serious game programming

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it really depends on what kind of programming you want to do but there is a LOT of theory in game programming if you are on the engine side

tidal moth
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you may not need to do engine level programming. maybe you just want to do e.g. gameplay programming

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I will say that most studios have their own in house version of things, so there's bound to be some degree of relearning workflows and code etiquette where ever you go

unkempt aurora
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ok, I am really hoping like digipen or michigan works out, but thank you for clearing the air a little cuz I was reading up on CS degrees and saw how people were bashing CS for not coding but I also know for a fact that I have the drive to code in my free time seeing as im doing that right now while also being in football and not having much free time

tawdry rune
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the CS is to learn the theory, the coding is what you do on your own

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Digipen just rolls all of that together, expect to work very very hard if you go into their program

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you will build small games with a team as well as learn a bunch of theory during the day

unkempt aurora
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I am 100% down to work hard on this and am not the type who thinks "imma go to school and just play games in a game dev degree"

tawdry rune
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BTW Unreal engine source is there, you can go and look at all of it right now. It's worth going through all the systems even at a high level and looking at the code

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anyway I can vouch for digipen being a good program I have hired quite a few people from there over the years

unkempt aurora
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Ya, as of now Ive really only worked on blueprint but after the project Im working on right now im going to move to typing code, I have how ever typed code in Unity for a couple months and like I said im def top of my class in my coding class Right now with the first year teacher working together with me to figure out questions other kids or I myself have

tidal moth
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they do have a quite good track record

tawdry rune
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I got the award for highest mark in high school computer science the year I graduated

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yeehaw lol

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well before you were born btw

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a very very modern high end PC back then was a 486

unkempt aurora
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ya computer have changed a crap ton, but it is kinda funny to see a like 15 year old super gaming computer try to run todays games

tawdry rune
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my first game someone emailed me the entire source code + all the assets textures + the map editor etc. All in one 19megabyte email lol

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that was several years of my life

unkempt aurora
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😂

tawdry rune
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I think my current game has a single texture that's about 4x the bytes

unkempt aurora
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ya, its also crazy in how like pokemon Heart Gold and Soul Silver were like only a couple of MBs and they were like 60 hour playtime games and now one assest can be multiple times larger than that

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But ya thank you a ton for the advice ill make sure to keep it in mind when applying to colleges

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also thx CranzEstebogen to

tawdry rune
#

my only other advice would be to get in lots and lots of programming

#

solve problems, learn stuff, work hard

unkempt aurora
#

ok Thank you, Im def gonna keep grinding

tawdry rune
#

look me up in 4 years when you graduate, if nothing else I can introduce you to some bungie people (I live in Redmond)

unkempt aurora
#

Ya if I end up going to Digi pen ill be sure to let you know cuz thats in redmond

tawdry rune
#

yup pretty close to where I live, although I'm out at my beach place right now

unkempt aurora
#

Respect for a beach place

tawdry rune
#

getting windy out here

placid frost
#

Damn I wish I had that kind of school where I live :p

hasty palm
#

How to share achievements/badges from unreal engine learning portal to LinkedIn. There is a linkedin button provided beside achievement in learning portal but when we try to share directly, linkedin asks for credential ID and Credential url. where can I find it?

raven moon
# unkempt aurora I dont usually message in this server but I was wondering If anyone had any advi...

Hey, so I don't know about how things are in the US (or wherever you may be), but there are soem colleges here in Canada (one of which I am currently attending) that offer diploma programs specifically for Game Art/Design. the courses cover 3d fundamentals, animation for games, concept art, game engines (specifically ue4/5 for the school I attend) as well as motion capture and other things. Towards the end of the year, you essentially work to build your portfolio for employers.

I haven't finished the program, but lots of people from the school get employed directly to EA Vancouver, or other smaller studios in the Greater Vancouver area.

I have a friend taking comp. sci for a 4 year program, and she does fine with it, but she has another 2 years to go. On the other hand, diploma course really fast-tracks you into industry jobs, where you can work your way up.

Hopefully the insight is helpful!

celest hemlock
#

If your into game programming id almost always consider a regular computer science program over a games diploma any day, just work on gamedev stuff on your own time

#

Getting into the industry is hard, that way you have a backup plan

unkempt aurora
#

Ok, thank you guys for the advice! Im def gonna keep all that in mind, and Opted Oberst the point of getting a portfolio built up for employers ive heard is a good idea especially because you can get to work faster so thx again

versed cloud
#

Im curious about something. I like to export models and tear them apart to see how actual game designers build models, because I cant find any articles anywhere that take about standard modeling practices for games. I mainly work in blender. I exported one of Epic's Paragon models (since i know at one point that was going to be used for actual game play), and the model is in a crazy amount of peices. I dont even mean like armor separated from the base mesh, I mean like the base mesh is in 2 peices (as if mirrored but never merged) The textures themselves seem to be one peice(the whole face rather half a face). A lot of the armour or other pieces seem to be separated into two peices (as if for texture seams, front and back), rather than a seam marked and kept whole.

So my question is, is this common practice? or is blender just doing weird things when importing the fbx (like breaking apart meshes that should have seams into individual peices)?

Also if anyone knows any articles about industry best modeling practices, I'd be keen to read.

tawdry rune
#

there is no one best practice for modeling it's all going to be very dependent on what you are doing

#

the key is to understand all of the different things going on and what the goals of the project are

versed cloud
#

So, if I were to model say a torso all in one mesh and had seam for UVs thats fine? I've torn apart quite a few models and a lot of them are in pieces, I dont recall seeing any in 'one piece'as it were, which has me questioning how I do things.

tidal moth
#

it's worth exploring different approaches. each studio and each project will have their own limitations that may cause workflows to be done in a certain way

versed cloud
#

hmmm, ok. I suppose I'll try to keep doing things my way keeping that in mind. I just wondered if there was a reason, but I guess as you said its just the way a studio chooses to go about it base on needs, rather than a hard rule.

tawdry rune
#

it's a complex topic

tidal moth
#

art and design tend to be very fluid disciplines as they can be dependent on fundamental gameplay constraints (such as camera and space)

#

e.g. if you have a game with fixed cameras per room/space, you can optimize away everything that said camera can't see

flat gazelle
versed cloud
#

I'll have to see if I can check them out/find them somewhere. I dont play so I dont have any way to extract them.

pure kettle
#

Their priority has to be questioned tbh
Rigify is crap and has old bugs from pre-2.8 revamp, despite many people recommending to use Rigify.

versed cloud
# pure kettle Their priority has to be questioned tbh Rigify is crap and has old bugs from pre...

Keeping in mind that blender add-ons arent necessarily maintained by the core blender development teams, even tho they ship with blender. the FBX addon was made by a few of the core dev team (looking at the author names on the addon), but the B-dev team is still relatively small and there are still lots of things that are submitted by the community. But that is a discussion for another day or at least another chat.

placid frost
#

Hey everyone, is there any Canadian programmer here that had experience with NAD school ? I'm french but a Canadian friend of mine did that school and became a 3D artist. When he saw that I was interested in game programming (I'm an embedded firmware dev) he told me that it was a realy good school and that it had what I was mostly looking for ==> a good network. The school worked out realy well for him and he told me that some of the students there did go in game programming even though it is a 3D art school.
So, since applying and moving to Canada can be both a big risk and a big opportunity for me, I wondered if any programmer had any experience to share regarding doing that school to become a game programmer, so that I can make a more educated decision moving forward. Thanks!

tawdry rune
#

dude if you are an embedded firmeware dev you already have a lot of the necessary skills

#

maybe you should try finding a gig first

placid frost
#

yeah I do have the required skills, but since my degrees are messy, I still do not have a master, wich is why I have the option to chose a school for it's network only in order to get a happy career in game prog, because I currently work in a place (by place I mean whole region) where there is not a lot of ppl to talk or do project with when it comes to games

#

(rn I work on my own games on my free time, alone, and I'd love to to change my environment and work amongst ppl with the same passions)

#

and I don't have much experience with that artistic approach, wich is a point I liked with the NAD school too

tawdry rune
#

lots of companies are hiring remote

#

programmers are in short supply

#

you could potentially get a remote gig and then move on from there

#

I don't see a degree as necessary if you already have the skills

#

if you just need access to a network there are other ways (like posting here!)

#

my advice would be to get to know the engine and then start applying for gigs

placid frost
#

yeah the degree thing comes from my french culture, here if you don't have a degree, you don't have a job, so it's a little weird to me ^^'

#

currently my plan is to continue to make projects on my own to get comfy with the engine, and then get hired later on, or, if NAD is as good as I've been told it is, do it and get a job in a cool sutdio

#

but for this I need to know if NAD is as good as ppl say it is

#

or at least how good it is

tawdry rune
#

no idea on NAD

#

the local game school here is digipen, which is good, but expensive

placid frost
#

yeah I've seen it, but too expensive for me

#

Quebec has nice agreements with France, wich is why it's an option at all for me :p

tawdry rune
#

well my advice is to go for a job first and then only go for a degree if that doesn't work

#

you can build your network elsewhere IMHO

#

maybe that's just my bias with no degree, but in programming skills are paramount

placid frost
#

in france we have a whole lot of degrees and titles that HRs specifically look for, I find that extremely dumb and lazy, but that's how it is. So yeah that's part of why I have no remorse leaving if I have to

#

I'm just clueless when it comes to networking since I live in the countryside so I can't realy do it in person

tawdry rune
#

well that's the first thing you will need to change

#

one trip to GDC and you will meet more people than you can imagine

#

but you are doing it here

#

I've hired several people I met through unreal slackers in the last couple of years for example

#

GDC has been cancelled so it's been a tough couple of years but you can certainly network online

#

most game companies don't really care about degrees, they care about results

placid frost
#

GDC is a 100% on my goto list when I finish my main personal project, when it comes to networking with discord it's realy weird to me, I like knowing ppl I work with IRL :p but I'l definitely try and get use to it

tawdry rune
#

I see a lot of people making the same mistake, thinking that you can't know someone on discord like IRL

#

discord is real life 😉

placid frost
#

true :p

tawdry rune
#

anyway my main point is that you can likely get real experience working remotely which is going to be more valuable than a degree

#

degree vs I worked on X game for 2 years that shipped are different realms

#

unless you want to specialize in something super deep a degree is pretty useless

placid frost
#

yeah but doesn't the company you've work for realy important for that ? And to work on an important company, don't you need the network that comes with the degree ?

#

(that was my chain of thought)

tawdry rune
#

hmmm not really no

#

what you need is evidence of ability

#

I interview people with degrees all the time that I wouldn't hire

#

and I interview people without degrees that I would hire

#

game industry is results driven

#

France may be a completely different ballgame

placid frost
#

ok, so that's a huge difference compared to what i'm used to then

#

in a good way

tawdry rune
#

the flip side is that the degree is in no way a guarantee of a job

#

you need to actually be able to produce useful work on the game

#

this is where many people fail

#

degree or not

placid frost
#

yeah, but second thing that happens in France, wich makes me ask, then aren't the salaries extremely low without a degree ?

tawdry rune
#

degree or not literally has no bearing on salary in games that I've seen

#

salaries in europe are on the low side degree or not btw

placid frost
#

oh wow, that's a shocker to what I'm used to

tawdry rune
#

france has a very regimented business environment where everyone plays it safe

#

NA is different

#

also salaries are a very broad range in games VERY broad

#

it's often location specific

placid frost
#

yeah I knew that part at least ^^

tawdry rune
#

I think the question is more about how much/ what you can contribute

#

if you can perform at a high level you can make a lot of money

#

if not, then maybe making games isn't the right career choice anyway

#

companies are desperate for good programmers at the moment

#

but again, you actually have to be good

placid frost
#

what are your standards when it comes to being a good programmer in the US ?

tawdry rune
#

well that's going to be project specific

#

I personally look for solid C++ skills and some knowledge of Unreal

#

I can go through some of the typical questions I ask here if you care

#

I've been asking fairly similar questions for 20 years so they are fairly well calibrated

#

over hundreds of interviews

#

I look for candidates that understand how the machine works underneath the hood

placid frost
#

I'm solid when it comes to technical computer stuff, I'm not a mathematician researcher doing the next IA when it comes to algorithms

tawdry rune
#

nah I'm talking just programming

placid frost
#

ok that's good news to me

tawdry rune
#

if it was for a specific job (like AI) then I would ask additional questions

#

so an an example

#

instead of asking "what is a virtual function" I ask "tell me how the compiler implements virtual functions"

#

I would expect an embedded systems programmer to have a good idea of the second question

placid frost
#

ok, perfectly fine with what I enjoy doing and why I work in embedded

tawdry rune
#

the first question is assumed if you know c++ and is pointless

#

the second question can lead into all kinds of interesting areas

#

for example, dereferencing the vtable is an extra indirect lookup, what does that do to the cache?

#

which can then lead into a discussion about cache architecture, how memory is fetched (and what kind of latencies to expect) etc

placid frost
#

ok that makes me way more confident actualy ^^ I feared more about maths specific questions or algorithms I never worked with

tawdry rune
#

well you will certainly get those questions from some devs

#

I always ask about big O notation for example

placid frost
#

yeah that's ok to me too

tawdry rune
#

but one doesn't need to go into crazy detail there

#

if someone says something like "I'm a graphics programmer" I will ask additional questions

#

a good one is "explain tangent space"

placid frost
#

yeah that's less ok to me :p

tawdry rune
#

any real graphics programmer has dealt with that

#

sure but are you a graphics specialist?

placid frost
#

nope

tawdry rune
#

well there ya go then I wouldn't expect an answer to that one

placid frost
#

I'm currently making my own graphic engine just by curiosity but that's not where I want to work

tawdry rune
#

for unreal positions for C++ programmers I also have other questions

#

for example how does garbage collection work in unreal?

#

another good one is talking about their philosophy about where to make the break between C++ and blueprints

#

if you want to get deep into hardcore unreal asking for an explanation of how the character movement component works is a good noe

#

since it involves autonomous, simulated and authority working together

#

also an understanding of unreal replication is important

placid frost
#

allright, thx for those exemple actualy, I'm still learning to get comfortable with unreal, and don't know the answer of some of the questions you asked about it yet, so now I know better how to position myself right now.

tawdry rune
#

those are some key systems to learn

placid frost
#

But that's for sure things I'm used to learn by myself, so again, makes me more confident

tawdry rune
#

the best way to learn is to build and solve the problems that come up

#

there are an amazing number of bad solutions that won't scale

#

it also really depends on what kind of game it is, some game are simple and don't require much heavy lifting from engineering

#

other games require an immense amount

#

the ones where you get paid a lot will require more

placid frost
#

pay or not, making challenging systems is what I like when it comes to work, so that what I aim at

#

I guess still being young grants you extra energy for that kind of thing :p

tawdry rune
#

a lot of people seem to think you can't get paid well working in games

#

what they are really saying is that you can make more if you go sell your soul to facebook, which is true

#

but you can still do way better than a lot of careers

placid frost
#

Yep, I've heard that from a friend, but the salaries he told me about where quit hard to imagine for me, wich leads me to questions about how good you have to be

tidal moth
#

it really depends on the studios, type of games and role

#

mobile game studios may pay you more than AAA in many cases, because the revenue streams from mobile are so much higher

#

graphics programmers are sought after unicorns and in general are very highly paid

placid frost
#

I've heard that too

#

(wich is part of why NAD looks like an option to me, it seems like there is realy good ppl to learn from when it comes to graphic programming, and if I have 3 years to dedicate to a degree, I'd use them to learn that part of programming, wich I'm currently bad at)

tidal moth
#

IMO you should go for what you like to do, and not necessarily what pays the best. short term you might regret losing out on some money as you build your career, but long term you will appreciate it as it will prevent you from burning out

#

but you know, that's like, my opinion, dude

placid frost
#

I'm use to do work I don't a 100% like, what's important to me in order not to burn out is having good ppl to work with

tidal moth
#

if it works, it works

tawdry rune
#

so it's hard to generalize on salaries

#

I know I'm in one of the most expensive, if not the most expensive, regions in the world for games

#

but entry level programmer salaries here are $100k+

tidal moth
#

the US does well for salaries in game dev in general

#

I suppose in general

#

even outside of game dev

tawdry rune
#

for sure

#

but houses here are also insanely expensive

steady pewter
#

Houses are everywhere expensive. Europe for example. For the last 5 years, around these are 50% to 100% up.

placid frost
#

yeah when it comes salaries, it's hard to compare because practically speaking, it evens out pretty fast

tawdry rune
#

I think we are seeing quite a bit of general inflation so yeah

#

you need to have capital invested to keep up

#

e.g. own a house

tidal moth
tawdry rune
#

sure or bitcoin

#

but at current prices I wouldn't recommend bitcoin

#

you can't live inside of a bitcoin if prices crash but you can still live in a house

#

point is though capital assets are going up while salaries aren't while the value of currency goes down

hoary crag
#

Hey all, Name is Tim. So I graduated a development Bootcamp and they put me into a government Top Sec job. That's really not my thing. I was really proficient in java and Javascript. I just wanted to become a better programmer. I am a way better programmer. The last few days i've been taking the unreal courses and I'm loving it. 3D is my thing and now I'll be able to learn some C++ and really get to know unreal. I dipped on a junior web development job that looked like it blew. I really hope I made the right decision and a better junior position, I find. if you read this thank you cheers

pastel estuary
#

good luck ii8!

flat gazelle
brave dew
#

It’s fixed thanks

leaden shadow
#

Anyone here successfully launched a kickstarter for a game in Germany and willing to answer some questions? Freel free to DM me 🙂

tawdry rune
#

I had many germans back my kickstarter but it wasn't specifically german

brave jacinth
#

hi everyone got good overview for game dev, i wanted to ask about vr and ar in game dev n scope in your country ?

plucky hatch
#

I'm a script writer and musician. Anyone wanna use these talents in exchange of Steam gift cards?

lilac walrus
plucky hatch
#

I don't have a degree I just learn to make games now how can I shape it to a career

pastel estuary
digital gate
#

source: did the thing and now do that thing for a company

pastel estuary
#

I decided its too good to not pin it. @digital gate
Apologies for not doing it any sooner XD

granite cargo
#

Anyone in here do concert visuals and real time content for bands and events? That is what I do and I love it. I come from a 2D background but was introduced in 2017 to Notch VFX and it blew my mind. Started doing UE about 18 months ago and have been starting to get booked quite a bit

#

Would love to link up with some other people interested in doing similar work. My field is VP and touring visuals using UE, Notch and I just grabbed Houdini today to go into the rabbit hole

pastel estuary
#

we have some people in here doing just that. dont know their names though

#

(besides Deadmau5)

winter sable
#

The company I work for does a lot of VP stuff for films

cerulean hound
#

im not really sure where to post this, but has anyone ever done the whole "get an epic mega grant" thing with epic?

#

apologies if in the wrong section

brisk lagoon
#

Is there anyone here who is currently employed at Epic Games? Even formerly employed is okay.

lilac walrus
#

use the job boards,

unkempt field
fickle hatch
#

You're supposed to finish games?

green oyster
narrow girder
#

Looking for help getting certified in Unreal Engine 4... What, if any, certs are considered respected in this industry?

#

Or even is there any real teacher taught courses where there's free form question and answer sessions, instead of taking an online class where it takes 2 months for a response? Id be willing to pay for an intermediate course or even like a side gig as an intern or something... I just feel like I'm spinning my wheels trying to learn this all on my own. Im curious how others got self started

craggy nacelle
#

"make a game" is probably how a lot of folks got started... can't really speak to courses or certs though as I have no idea about those

narrow girder
#

Thanks for the response, maybe I could use help coming up with a "simple" idea. My problem is what I think is simple ends up being way more complex than Im ready to take on, haha

craggy nacelle
#

Maybe something basic, like a breakout clone, a basic side scroller like Mario, Asteroids clone, etc.

#

A Frogger clone might be fun too and shouldn't be so complex either

narrow girder
#

Hmm good ideas

#

I didnt think of side scroller type since every tutt vid is 3rd person pretty much haha

craggy nacelle
#

Yeah 2D isn't as cool in a 3D engine for tutorials I guess so you naturally end up with 3D tuts :)

#

Tetris or other puzzle games have some interesting problems to solve as well

tidal moth
narrow girder
#

Im interested in Game Engineering or Content creator specifically, sorry Ill edit my post to be more clear

tidal moth
#

both of those sound incredibly vague

narrow girder
#

To elaborate, I would be the person coding the core game functions

tidal moth
#

right, so gameplay programming

narrow girder
#

Like AI or inventory systems, netcode, etc.

#

Yeah

#

Thats my goal, but I believe a stepping stone would be someone who does content creation, I.E. setting a campaign mission up using tools from a game dev

flat gazelle
#

If you still call it netcode, you have some learning to do before worrying about certs 😛

tidal moth
#

I would build a portfolio showing that you can build said systems, then create videos of them. talk about the reflections you've had while building them, show your code is up to quality and neatness standards etc.

narrow girder
#

What do you mean Partikel? Ive coded in C# using .net, netcode is just a general term for networking code?

#

Ok, thanks CE! I think I can make something like that

flat gazelle
#

It's a bit more involved in games and netcode is usually the term adopted by redditors who don't really code.

#

To be fair, I might just have worked at the wrong places, but it has never been used during production.

#

Aaand I'm not a coder either, so ignore me 😛

narrow girder
#

CE do you have any course recommendations to make sure what Im learning is up to standard? Right now I only have myself to go off of

#

Ive tried some udemy courses, but found youtube gave the same results

tidal moth
#

what's your experience level with programming in general

narrow girder
#

Only school based, but I would say about 3 years of java/C++/C#, I understand a lot of the core concepts of coding architect and mathematical/logical operators

tidal moth
#

I'd just sit down and try out UE4's cpp and see what you can do it with it

#

perhaps even try to create something like a subsystem that is adaptable by designers in blueprint

narrow girder
#

Thats a good idea, you mean like inventory or something of the like?

tidal moth
#

whatever you want to do and work with

narrow girder
#

Makes sense

tidal moth
#

something that fits a first try

#

if you haven't worked with the engine before in any real capacity

#

then you can always try more complex systems later

narrow girder
#

Ive got about 6-9 months on and off working with blue prints, but I feel like Im just spinning my wheels with my projects. But I can maybe section off what Ive learned into mini projects and portfolio that way

tidal moth
#

if you already have things you have done, polish them up and publish them

narrow girder
#

Would it make sense to cut it up into pieces or keep it as one whole project?

#

And just highlight some of what I came across while working on it?

tidal moth
#

in whatever you're doing, you should be showing your work, and account for where other people have done their work

narrow girder
#

Definitely, ok I think you helped talk me into a good path for setting up a portfolio off of my work. I felt like I needed a full project but I guess that isnt really needed for a portfolio

tidal moth
#

not at all

#

it's better to show off that you've collaborated and have those reflections, but ultimately you are showing your work

narrow girder
#

Ok cool! That makes me feel a lot better about where Im at. I just spent 3 months working with a friend I met online and we just hit scheduling conflicts where we can no longer continue. He did all the animation/modeling/mapping type stuff and I was pretty much the UE4 guy. I should be able to clean up and polish the blueprints into something presentable

topaz wing
#

I'm going for an interview tomorrow. Its a small studio, roughly 10 peeps, I applied for a junior c++ /blueprint programmer. It's my first interview, could you share any tips so I don't fail miserably?

tacit siren
#

don't try to fake your way through questions you don't know the answer to

#

if the question you're asked is slightly outside your skill level, i find it positive if candidates ask me for a piece of puzzle they need for the answer, but don't know

woeful sonnet
plucky hatch
#

Guys is it bad if i used ripped asset in my showcase video? Like batman assets but its a combat mechanic showcase as a c++ programmer?

green oyster
#

actual ripped assets from games or fan-made stuff?

shut token
#

Good ol' Papa Tim

tidal moth
plucky hatch
#

Got it!

tidal moth
#

there was a gdc talk from years back about how to showcase a prototype. it was called something along the lines of "30 things I hate about your game design pitch"

#

that should be the gold standard, whether creating a portfolio, or pitching a prototype to investors

plucky hatch
#

OH ive seen this

#

Yep thanks a ton CE!

tidal moth
#

you can generally replace the questions with "is this something worth showing off" and "will this help me get hired by an employer"

narrow girder
#

This was a great watch and helps not only with pitching a game, but a position too in my opinion! Thanks, CE!!

craggy nacelle
#

You want to have a contract that clearly states the terms of employment and that all the rights for the created assets move to you

#

You may be able to get a suitable contract from some template online, but if you have any concerns at all, get a lawyer to draft a contract template specific for your company and your needs

fickle hatch
#

You need to satisfy at least these points for a one-off contracted art thing:

  1. Have a clear point of consent for both parties that identifies them (a written signature, a digital signature etc)
  2. Be clear about what rights are given by the artist to use their work in your project
  3. Be clear about the origin and destination of the art (it originates with this specific artist and it's intended for use by you specifically)
  4. Must leave a paper trail/electronic trail from the start of process to the end of it (be it email correspondence, version control system logs or whatever else, preferably with clear points of where work starts and where it's considered to be delivered/etc)

It is best to invest into a lawyer and draft up a template contract that you could then use for your needs. It would be really worth it. Make sure to tell the lawyer what kind of work will be performed and in what way (local hire, online freelancing etc)

#

You can just freeform write an agreement between you an artist if you want - but the contract is much better and for anything serious, invest into a lawyer to makes it properly formalized and relevant to your local jurisdiction

craggy nacelle
#

You need to read the license agreements for the programs you use

#

Most programs which you pay to use don't require any attribution. In UE's case, they have a FAQ on the website about it. Marketplace assets don't require attribution

#

It's also worth noting that some programs which have a free usage tier have a separate paid commercial tier - so while you may be able to use them as part of creating games or other software for free, as soon as you make your product commercially available you need to move into their paid commercial tiers.

#

these are in the license agreements as well but as we all know nobody reads those... but you should lol

mossy skiff
#

hey so I'm about to release my 1st game using unreal engine 4 for profit on steam in a few days. This is kind of last minute but do I need to let Epic Games know somehow?

craggy nacelle
mossy skiff
turbid pulsar
#

hello, I am looking to go to uni and would like to learn game dev things(Europe. if that means anything). What are the things I should be looking out for in searching cause I have no clue what to look for and is there something special to look for or not. Id appreciate any answers

normal iron
#

What is the pay for junior game dev programming positions, specifically for studios that use unreal engine? (Europe)

I'm currently working as a enterprise java developer, however I want to open more options for my future. Because I started with Game Dev as a hobby, I'm wondering if it would be worth shifting more focus on that or keep my time divided like I do now (learning Game Dev as a hobby and Web Dev to expand my professional experience)

craggy nacelle
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Europe is a large continent and what you are paid would be quite different say in Spain vs Germany or Sweden (Spain salaries being lower typically in comparison)

abstract matrix
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Hi all, I often scroll through the ‘unpaid gigs’ section on the discord and see the hundreds of requests for people to collaborate with. I often wonder how successful these requests are. I’m a solo dev with years of experience and have decided to pursue a bigger game this time around. So I’m mulling over how best to attract talent to start a small company. Ideally I’d love to work with people who could share in the vision of the story / world I’ve created so far, and that these people would be happy to dedicate some of their free time to getting the company off the ground and taking a share of profits later on if things pick up. But maybe I’m being naive and I should think more about paying 1 or 2 people short term to do less creative donkey work just to speed up development. Can anyone give their opinion on their ideal situation regarding forging a new small games company? Has any one here been involved in a startup that was all sweat and not profit at first? Any other thoughts would be much appreciated.

tidal moth
#

what I would suggest is try making something small that you can release and gain profits for first

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then once you have a little capital, you can use that to build something bigger

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I generally wouldn't trust unpaid freelancers as there is nothing holding them beyond their word. you may get a lot of flakiness that results in a high turnover. that in turns leads to a lot of half done work that someone else then has to pick up, understand, and then finish

abstract matrix
#

I actually have some experience running companies and have already registered my game dev company (even though it is only me for now). I write of taxes on equipment and software I buy. I’m not too worried about that side of things

tidal moth
#

if you're good at what you do, and you can work that on your own, do that. I have a side project that is unfunded where I am the only permanent worker. I do everything that is within my ability. the rest I outsource for money.

abstract matrix
#

Obviously employment and contracts would be slightly more detailed

abstract matrix
tidal moth
#

you can always try and do a pitch prototype, where detail doesn't matter and it's more about the hook of the game being strong. if a publisher OKs that, then you may be looking at some funding for a couple of team members

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but again, you're likely not going to be able to shake the indie level scopes fast

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unless you want to join an existing studio and just work on that for a while

abstract matrix
tidal moth
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if not more

abstract matrix
digital gate
# abstract matrix Hi all, I often scroll through the ‘unpaid gigs’ section on the discord and see ...

be very mindful of the quality of work the people you recruit. Free isn't risky for the sole reason that free work may go unfinished.

Free work can kill some projects. This probably comes more into play when there's a budget, but, it can even go so badly as to kill hobby projects too.

Not all free work is terrible.

I guess you could try to do a quick jam with some of the team if they're up for it. If they seem impossible to work with, or incompetent, and the stakes are that low just imagine how it'll be even worse when the entire company is on the line.

#

Rev share can work, but not many random people around are going to be at the skill you want and interested in the project that way. I feel like it might work better if the team knew each other and loved the design.

sand widget
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shaking my head

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rn

digital gate
sand widget
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cuz i agree with that

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am I suppose to say no problem tho

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it sound rude

fiery pumice
#

Hi guys I am in my last year of uni and I have learnt quite a lot about gameplay programming although I still need time to master C++. I am wondering if learning graphics programming will help my career in games development. Also as a noob in graphics programming should I start with opengl or vulkan? Things were a lot clearer for me before but I am a bit lost now and would really appreciate some guidance

steady pewter
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3.3, also ogl > dx11 (trollin')

digital gate
#

Well, I have basically no faith in revshare project runners in that regard.

#

I've seen too many fall for the "but its free" line, invariable IME this leads to brittle, unextensible code being relied on for features that should have been done by the skilled person specifically recruited to do the core tech of the project

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And you only have real control over whether it is "let happen" if you're the project runner.

#

Are you the project lead for Cromlech?

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Then your point here is "Hey, Cromlech, don't be a bad project lead"

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And mine is "Hey, Cromlech, watch out for this"

tidal moth
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I think it's more speaking from experience, as is my case. I don't doubt some scenarios exist where maybe the ideal team of people get together and make something happen

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but the teams in the past who have been successful with this have at least had a core group that were bound together other than through the flaky membrane of the internet

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but yeah your point does seem to be "don't accept bad free stuff, just find free stuff that is good". which is banking on the fact that this is a case that is something you can plan or account for

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which is why it's better in many cases not to deal with free work

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the sole idea of having a planned scope should be enough

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of an argument

tidal moth
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free work still requires you, as a project lead, to minimum give instructions, then review or vet the work done, then fit it into the game. if the other person doesn't want to bother, then you lose time at any of these stages

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hobbyist or not, a terribly scoped game is unlikely to be more than a pipedream

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since you're saying that, I'd love to see the portfolio of titles you've developed with free work

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because you must obviously be speaking from years of experience here

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I don't think that's a point you've made

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but once again, I'd love to see your portfolio of work

lusty idol
#

Hi, me and my friend are starting our own company/group and are starting to create our first game using unreal engine. But we keep on stumbling upon bumps in the road which is preventing us from making much progress. Currently what we are doing is uploading any changes we've made online, and then the other person downloading them to keep both our projects in sync. Anyway, that's not our issue. What we are wanting to know is how do game studios work on a single level at the same time? I know there's the multi using editing plugin, which we have used, but when we use it, the hosts internet connection turns to sh*t. So im wondering if there's any better way of doing it? Or is the multi user editing plugin and hosting a session the only way, and is this how larger companies and other indy studios do it?

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I have looked into source control. But isn't source control just to ensure that both parties have an up to date version of the same project at all times, by checking files in and out?

sullen river
#

Hey everyone I’m looking for a website developer that I can pay! Who’s interested?

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Will do!

flat gazelle
#

You don't work on the same level in unreal. You use sublevels.

lusty idol
#

But let's say that we are just using one level and not sublevels, is the only way for us both to work on the same level at the same time is to use the multi user plugin?

tidal moth
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I don't know any plugins personally that would do it for you, not to mention that it poses several risks of corruption when saving items

#

what's the issue with using sublevels?

lusty idol
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There is no issue per se, we are both just new to unreal and trying to figure out the best way of doing things from two different locations, and dont really have anyone personally that we can ask for guidance

tidal moth
#

sublevels are the way to go if you want to work concurrently

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even if you don't want to do that, I'd still recommend sublevels per person. and having the project hooked up to source control

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which will lock content for you

lusty idol
#

Yea, i did try and setup source control, and after many videos later, i think i kinda did it, but just didn't understand it fully enough to know if i did it right or if i was using it right

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As like i said, i don't really have anyone that i can ask the type of questions to

flat gazelle
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Sublevels and sourcecontrol is the right way

tidal moth
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I would suggest asking questions there

lusty idol
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Okay, i will look into trying to setup sublevels and source control then. Thank you for the help

lusty idol
tidal moth
#

in either case, this isn't really the channel to ask these questions

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you're almost bound to get answers there

lusty idol
#

My apologies. I thought my question about others working in the industry was in the correct channel. My bad

tidal moth
#

it's more for career based advice, not technical issues

digital gate
#

I mean we could sit and snipe at each other because you haven't seen a situation where a competent person is continually overruled to the detriment of a project.

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But instead, I think we could just both move on with our lives

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yeah

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sometimes that includes being the right person to make the team work

stable thorn
#

Anybody to give advice on finding a map guy?

tidal moth
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what's a map guy

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a carthographer?

stable thorn
#

A map guy who can make a map

tidal moth
#

cartographers make maps

stable thorn
#

ah yea that

tidal moth
#

but if you're thinking about level artists or level designers it would probably be better to call them that

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anyway, I suggest you look towards the job boards and post something there. interview them and see if they fit what you're looking for, sign contracts where necessary, pay them appropriately.

flat gazelle
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Founding a studio succsesfully requires experience. In the process of getting experience, you tend to also get connections.

ashen lynx
#

But if it was already founded, how can you get another cofounder in ?🤔

steel creek
#

You are asking for someone to become enthusiastic over the idea you already have. The best place to look for that person is literally inside the community you say you have. They are there, already demonstrating actual interest, versus going to find someone who will most like only have a monetary interest.

#

It is reminiscent to me of the famous French story about a man asking where the angry mob was marching off too; remarking he had to figure that out, so he could lead them.

You have the interest and community; start there asking who would entertain the idea of being a co-founder. Define what that means to them, etc...

As for the other answer, "Get to work!" -- that is the actual answer.

Without putting yourself into/in front of the things you want, you will never get there. Also akin to the pithy: You miss 100% of the shots you dont take.

stuck palm
#

extremely toxic community

steel creek
#

lol, so your answer, after getting many, was to delete everything and call US toxic. Me thinks you might need more help than just asking for a co-founder. Communication seems to be a top list item.

fickle hatch
stable thorn
#

level designer was the word I was looking for

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My English is not good

fickle hatch
#

Sad times. We actually used aerophotography and produced real maps for our game 😄

spice dagger
west surge
#

Hi all. Had anyone dealt with some career blues/depression?

#

I made a huge mistake when I left uni 10 years ago. I went to work at an Arch vis company because it was incredibly local, I had no artistic peers there (asset artist stuff) and now fir the last year I've been working at a VR company but yet again I am the only artist. A bunch of my university friends all went to London and are seniors now, really high up and very talented, but I'm still here as a 3D artist on low pay.

I know I did it to myself, and I have a chance to make things better in this current role but I feel absolutely miserable some times, like I completely ruined my life and now I have a baby I feel like I have let him down also. I could have been far better off if only I had not wasted my life in a job I hated.

tidal moth
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it gets better

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I'm not sure if this is the right forum to discuss this as these topics are perhaps a bit intimate, but I think everyone experiences this at least at some point during their career

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I know I have

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I don't think it's too late to turn it around either. if you know what you want to do and you already have the experience, it's just about pushing yourself forward

west surge
#

Yeah I fear that's part of my failure. I haven't pushed myself. If I could I would have done so earlier. I am trying to get better now but the regret of wasted years is hard to get over, and the constant obsession with pay gets old

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Sorry I get like this once in a while, have to vent some place and feel a bit better again.

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Or let's say. I've never been able to play the career ladder game.

tidal moth
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I wouldn't personally think in absolute terms of "failure" here. self wallowing become a vicious cycle, so it's important to instead look at ways to get out the inadequacy you feel. If need be (and I say this with no stigma attached whatsoever), speak to a therapist about it.

tidal moth
west surge
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@tidal moth yeah I'm going to talk to a doctor soon, see what I can get. I think a lot of this is a kind of PTSD from the old job, but man, dealing with this kind of grief is insane.

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Thanks for talking though.

tidal moth
#

no worries. I hope you pull through

pastel estuary
#

@west surge while not really the place, you are far from the only one who has experienced that. therapy helped me a lot. As CE said, it gets better.
https://twitter.com/Luos_83/status/1416201312388231169

Yoeri -Luos- Vleer (@Luos_83)

re: imposter syndrome discussion by @ShannonBerke
Ive had a very ffed up childhood, the people I looked up to either left or pushed me away.
I had nobody to compare to or look up to, so all I had was me and the person I saw in the mirror.
This image was warped, really warped.

Twitter ·
#

we all go trough our own sheit in different ways, and we all follow different paths.
eventually we'll meet up again.

#

also, watch this video: (hint: its about concept art, but also about the road we take in life)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYbYvImd7Bw

YouTube
GDC
Concept Art is Dead

In this 2015 GDC talk, One Pixel Brush's Shaddy Saffadi argues that what AAA games need now are not concept artists but concept designers with a refined sensibility for storytelling, shape design and cinematic lighting.

Register for GDC: http://ubm.io/2gk5KTU

Join the GDC mailing list: http://www.gdconf.com/subscribe

Follow GDC on Twitter:...

▶ Play video
west surge
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@pastel estuary thanks a lot, I wasn't sure where to post but I'll watch the video and see about some help. It was late at night so everything started getting to me.

pastel estuary
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@keen siren job offers are only allowed in their dedicated channels. would be awfully nice if you read the #rules. also read the #instructions on how to use the job-channels.

keen siren
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Sorry

scenic moon
#

I'm not asking for, or accepting legal advice. Is it typical that contacts are covered in an NDA? IE when leaving a company, you can not contact anyone you met there for any reason. Not trying to debate it, just asking if you see this commonly in the industry

steady pewter
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Depends on the wording? Meeting clients for business is one thing, meeting colleagues for a beer - another. Not a legal advice.

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Former is to be expected.

scenic moon
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the wording to my understanding is both of those could get me sued

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just wondering if that's common practice

tidal moth
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never personally heard anything like this

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I can't imagine it unless it's some top secret gover menta work

steady pewter
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Latter is weird, lol. However, the intention should be to keep the IP and your previous employer business out of your hands. Not a legal advice.

pastel estuary
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that is weird. obviously you are still under the same NDA even if you leave the company, so just a meet-up between old colleagues should be fine.

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kinda derpy if they added that to an nda

royal lintel
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Definitely weird. Where I'm at people tend to give out their linkedin and email when they leave, that'd be completely disallowed if an NDA barred contacting former colleagues... I'd be surprised if that's even enforceable though I'm not a lawyer.

scenic moon
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I’m glad to see it’s not common, was really disappointed to see that, thinking that companies just want your labor without even giving you the opportunity to network, or make friends even lol

dense phoenix
flat gazelle
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Non solicitation clauses are common, but barring even talking to people seems too far reaching to be enforceable

twilit fern
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Hi, someone messaged me on linkedin saying I would be a good fit for a project. And has said he would like to call me on friday. I forgot to update my location on linkedin and have moved far away. Should I message him now asking if this is a remote role/ I've moved or wait and see how the call goes on friday as I have 0 experience and even having a call is great for me.

pure kettle
twilit fern
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Yea telephone

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My thoughts was to tell him when we call so I can hear what he has to say first as I dont know anything about the role

digital gate
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I think an initial phone screen is low enough effort that the time wasted on their part is small. It would still be a waste of their time if the role is not remote. Doubly so if you have no intention to return to that location.

Up to you, I'd probably take the call and figure it out later if it goes extremely well.

woeful zealot
#

Hey everyone, I wanted to ask about the average salaries for junior game/level designers in Oslo, Norway? Any information about the ranges would be really helpful. Cheers ✌️

pure kettle
woeful zealot
tidal moth
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I would not expect very high salaries for a junior necessarily. have you had an amount disclosed for an offer?

woeful zealot
tidal moth
#

around Scandinavia I've seen numbers like 25000/month swung around for junior designers, give or take. but I don't know if that fits the general idea of Oslo

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(in local currency)

flat gazelle
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I'm in Stockholm and that sounds low for Oslo as Norway is generally higher than Sweden.

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Though, the currency is stronger so maybe it makes sense.

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It's not too far off either way, but on the lower end I'd say.

tidal moth
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yeah I did go with a lower bound essentially, as I'm not sure what the avg. is

woeful zealot
#

Thanks I really appreciate it @tidal moth @flat gazelle ❤️

wanton finch
#

good evening everyone, I have a quick question that I am curious about.
So with me learning game development through unreal engine 4 and me using blueprints, should I also learn coding on the side? If I want to join a studio I should have a lot of coding experience on the side as well as the blueprint knowledge right?

pure kettle
wanton finch
#

hm, i will try and take some courses on the side while learning blueprints also

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hopefully i don't overwhelm myself

tall solar
# wanton finch good evening everyone, I have a quick question that I am curious about. So with ...

I think this really highly depends. Blueprint is kind of an intermediary. Pretty much anyone working with Unreal knows Blueprint. Sure some are better at it or require it more, but whether you're a Gameplay designer, level designer, FX designer, tech artist, programmer, etc. etc. Pretty much everyone needs to know some level of blueprint.

The point being that Blueprint is a little like knowing a spoken language. It's usually a requirement for a job, but not the reason you'll get hired. Coding is not required unless you're planning on being a programmer. It can certainly help in some fields. Specially like tech art. So coding requirement really depends on your ambitions.

harsh brook
#

Coding is usually required for non-programmers as well in larger studios beyond a certain point in your career. Junior designers, tech artists, animators, and VFX artists may not be expected to code, but usually if you want senior and above roles coding will be part of the discussion.

pure kettle
#

It's almost parallel to Lua in that context.

barren shadow
vagrant brambleBOT
#

:triangular_flag_on_post: leo-senpai#3324 received strike 1. As a result, they were muted for 10 minutes.

jovial wyvern
#

Is it easy find some job like jun-BP programmer? Expirience 2 year with UE4-5.

full notch
#

NGL im actually looking at starting a game company using UE

full notch
#

hey just sorta a noob question, im pretty sure i read it right.
once you make 1M you owe 5 percent right ? .
well lets say i got my brother a laptop. he downloads UE. we works on the same project as me. does he owe 5% aswell ? how does that work. would he log into UE with my account ?

digital gate
#

Explore this with a lawyer, but if you're both working on the project and the project brings in 1M+ then 5% of that total is what is owed, not 10% (each of you owing 5%).

full notch
#

ok cool. just had to clarify 😅

digital gate
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Big ambitions though

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Basically think of it like a big pie. Steam/EGS/Plat comes out of the same pool that the engine revenue does, but continuously.

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And then at some point you get to split the rest between you and him

full notch
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makes sense so to put ur game on steam they get a slice aswel ?

#

even sony and stuff or

pure kettle
#

You'd owe Sony for publishing your game on PlayStation.

full notch
#

dam thats kinda a big hit after it all aye. especially if you have a big team of people to also share the pie.

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doesn't put me off though. i still have big ambitions, just hope i have the brain energy to perform the way i know i need to

digital gate
#

I was gonna advise you to try to angle for a studio job, but after checking your profile, if you can hit that RP game niche nobody else has hit and several have whiffed on then you might have a readymade following

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Presuming that's your interest, ofc

shut tree
#

if you make 1.000.1000$ you pay 5% over 1000$ thats 50$

serene crystal
#

what a ripoff!

shut tree
#

i think tho, not sure

full notch
digital gate
#

Are y'all just learning now?

full notch
#

yeah I'm new to UE idk why it's taken me this long to descover it

#

I spent many years on RPG maker as a kid

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10 plus years ago

digital gate
#

I would avoid laying the foundation of the game for until you are real familiar with UE. You should be able to make city building mechanics and third person looter shooters first (or any two other genres), and you'll want to have a backend (database, authentication, etc) figured out before alpha

#

Once again, assuming your Target genre is what I think it is

tidal moth
digital gate
tidal moth
#

I tried 😔

full notch
#

yes of course eeheeh I have a few plans / ideas before I attempt to go full steam ahead on what I really want created. the first goal for my company is to make a small but very impactful presentation to present who we are :)

digital gate
full notch
#

my dream game is VERY ambitiouse

digital gate
#

if you have no idea what I'm talking about, just think critically about why you thought it was funny

tidal moth
#

it certainly wasn't meant as a jab at anyone, more of a cultural reference

full notch
#

I give my self about 2 years with UE before I start my dream game

digital gate
pure kettle
full notch
digital gate
#

You remember Identity and it's demo?

#

Do that but like actually persistent

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There's a solid vertical slice

full notch
#

omg yes

tidal moth
#

start small. take your time. your first project isn't going to be your best project. your 5th project isn't going to be your best project either

pure kettle
digital gate
#

it'd need to be bulletproof

full notch
#

I was so keen on identiy. I wonder what really happen. the tralior was clearly fake .. ?

digital gate
#

Yeah you have to distance yourself super hard from the littany of scams 🤣

full notch
digital gate
#

but if you do manage it, like I said, readymade community

full notch
#

yeah I have some ideas I can't give out eeheh

digital gate
#

No worries

full notch
#

on how to get noticed

pure kettle
# full notch for sure I know what you mean

Don't go for competitive game jams with short frame time like Epic MegaJam unless you know what you're doing - just enough time to make smaller games at your own pace. (honestly going for competitive game jams is one of my mistake)

digital gate
#

I'm just wanting to guide ya for some reason. Perhaps that I've been passively aware of everyone continuing to fall for trash and I know I can do better. But I'm AAA for now and we aren't in the same space (obviously)

full notch
full notch
digital gate
#

Doing some jams well could help establish a record of competency

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but don't expect to win

pure kettle
digital gate
full notch
full notch
digital gate
#

It's an event where lots of developers start projects at the same time and try to stick to some restrictions (notably time and theme)

pure kettle
full notch
#

ohhhh I think I sent some of that within the UE community

digital gate
full notch
#

I'm on phone rn that's all

full notch
digital gate
#

Show runner took us to Kickstarter but we had buggy mechanics and no real content. To summarize the problems, lack of vetting across the board and unwillingness to take the time to lay down good tech.

Turns out you can't stuff marketplace content into a project to make it successful.

full notch
digital gate
#

maybe one day I'll redo the entire tech stack the way I wanted to

full notch
#

hopefully I can at least make a nice presentation with community assets

digital gate
#

Don't get the wrong idea, you can absolutely grab preexisting stuff

#

It's all about cohesion, technical or artistic

#

They can provide assistance, but aren't shortcuts around putting in the intellectual work

full notch
#

my biggest goal I think will be smooth animation and vehicle phyiscs and damage

pure kettle
#

Lost Soul Aside got a lot of traction, despite the creator admits about marketplace asset in some part shown in the previews.
Marketplace assets could be helping in early production (in my case, to establish the style), and in early showcasings, but incoherent usage of them can look vomit inducing.

full notch
#

yeah I can see that

#

I have a long way to go. but I bet like most creators . if the vision comes to life. ill be fine xD

digital gate
#

it's almost always worth the dev time to add similar features to core tech versus integrating a marketplace pack which claims to include the feature you want.

#

There are exceptions, but generally if it was important enough for you to make any code, it was important enough to personally oversee it

#

Extensible frameworks are slightly different to single-focused packs too

full notch
#

yeah for sure,my .Lua experance has been a lot of editing more than creating

#

or finding functions and adding / editing more than creating

pure kettle
full notch
#

but I'm still very noob with code

digital gate
#

the deciding factor is whether it actually is robust. difficult to tell if you're new

#

but by all means, it's your project

#

make your own point, don't presume to speak for me or summarize my words

#

It loses the main kernel of advice to those who can't tell quality yet.

pure kettle
#

Though sometimes (I argue) even with good marketplace assets, you might resorting to creating your own implementation, probably due to cost constraints (or naughty pricing by some sellers) or anything else.

full notch
#

I haven't been on the market place yet function / code wise but I assume all the top quality stuff is kept private to the creatiors, or if built for sales, probs cost a lot. I don't wanna say there's only scraps on there but I don't see big time creators releasing stuff. unless for income

digital gate
#

There are some I could recommend

full notch
#

or unless it's epic games there very giving it seams

full notch
#

the Skyrim modding community has to be the most giving in my opion

digital gate
#

Anyway, Id take questions about specific packs to the relevant channels here. Ask at different times and let people have time to respond.

Like, asking about "Easy Save" in #blueprint should yield opinions that it gives you very little over just learning the save game system yourself. edit: (Saviour/Savior and EasyMultiSave are alternatives worth a look)

#

You'll want to try to figure out if people's response has salient points, or just formed out of convenience

craggy nacelle
#

personally I like Easy Save... learning the save system in C++ is annoying because there's just so little actually good info on how serialization works :P

#

(sure you can do it and there are other methods besides C++ but they tend to require more manual work for everything which personally I dislike when simpler methods exist)

digital gate
#

I prefer Saviour if you want a plug and play solution, but save games are pretty easy regardless? Derive from USaveGame, add members, add functions, wham bam done.

SaveInst->CopyFromWorld(Get world())
SaveInst->CopyFromPlayer(PC)
UGameplayStatics::SaveGameToSlot(...)

It's more convoluted to do with the simpler API that you have no control over.

You don't need FArchive knowledge, or even to understand what FProperty does or how to navigate them.

craggy nacelle
#

Yeah, that kind of basic solution is not hard to do, but you need to do more work per type of thing you want to save

#

If you use serialization with FArchive, you can just tag stuff SaveGame and it works without having to add more saving-related logic

#

but it needs a lot more complex implementation that lacks documentation, which those plugins provide for you, I'd imagine Savior does this as well

digital gate
#

I don't think easy save provides any of these facilities, was there an update?

#

Last I checked it was literally "Save built in atomics and some structs as their string version" and all BP

craggy nacelle
#

Oh, EasyMultiSave is the one I'm thinking of, is there something else called Easy Save :D

digital gate
#

Like its barely a wrapper around a custom SG derivative

#

Obviously stuff like Saviour (and I suppose EMS) is on another level

craggy nacelle
#

Ahh yeah

digital gate
#

Addressed this with an edit. Mods can now tidy the channel a bit, at their discretion

#

@craggy nacelle happy to clarify in DMs

craggy nacelle
#

I'm good but thanks :)

vagrant brambleBOT
#

:triangular_flag_on_post: Gou Chi#7287 received strike 1. As a result, they were muted for 10 minutes.

modern solstice
#

Hi guys, I am 16 and I want to ask how do I know if I am good enough for my age? I feel like I am bad at programming and I don't have friends who would share my hobby, so I can't compare myself with anyone. I can't make anything except small projects, I can't code in bigger coding language(C++, C# or Java), only thing I know is python and unreal engines blueprints(and in them I am not that good). Like I can code small hopping game/I can do small calculation algorithms, but I can't do even small RPG game(like I am not aiming for Diablo or something), just something with 2/3 classes and like 2 hour long story. I think I should be able to do this, but I can't. Is it ok or should I significantly higher up my time spent in coding?

digital gate
# modern solstice Hi guys, I am 16 and I want to ask how do I know if I am good enough for my age?...

Your expectations are way to high. 2/3 class Diablo-like with 2 hours of content ... is no trivial game. If you're 16 and already making small single-mechanic games in Unreal, you're ahead of where I was at your age.

Don't beat yourself up, keep slowly pushing your own boundaries, stop comparing yourself to industry veterans.

When I was 16 I hadn't even tried any programming. Now it's my day job.

modern solstice
#

My stuff is chaotic, I get lost in it, don't know what to do sooner and sooner or later I come to somethins like default HUD making and it's soo boring

digital gate
#

I recommend watching the second video at least

#

(it isn't specific to any engine)

modern solstice
#

I really enjoy stuff like physics editing, mathematical calculations and their usage and basically the "hard logic"

digital gate
#

You can make your UI be populated entirely programmatically. If that's the element which is missing for you.

modern solstice
#

Yeah, I have redone UE4 project that I did like 4 years ago, gosh, I didn't know something can be that bad optimalized

#

👍 thanks for tip

#

Thanks to all of you guys, you made my day a bit better(I was sad that I am idiot)

digital gate
#

@modern solstice To add to this, you should set aside 10 minutes at the start of your 2 hours to getting the boring stuff out of the way. Eventually you won't have any boring stuff, so it won't be hanging over you.

Anyway, yeah, best luck.

brazen oyster
#

Tips for landing a job as a (remote) game designer? I have 10 years/4k hours of experience from hobby projects and some CS background

tidal moth
#

studio experience and released games are still seen as the gold standard in terms of what a designer can do. a strong portfolio of games worked on helps. generally I wouldn't expect people to care much about hobbyist experience if there isn't some strong project backing it.

spiral bronze
#

Hey, I'm a game dev student and idk if here's the right place to ask, (please redirect me to the right place if it isn't)

I learned how to code with Unity and I'm finding the transition from code scripting to visual scripting very hard, has anyone else had this problem?

craggy nacelle
brazen oyster
tidal moth
# brazen oyster How do people land their first jobs then? 😄

by chance, miracle or eldritch ritual. jokes aside, it is hard to land a job in the industry given the sheer amount of applicants. studios pick and choose the best candidates, so you'll have to square up against people who might have better stuff to show and prove that you can outdo them

#

it all starts with having something solid and interesting to show though, so your portfolio is your alpha and omega

#

if you're a game designer home in on what makes your systems and mechanics interact, and go into detail with those. if you can show analytical thinking and have a keen awareness of system dynamics that helps.

#

but it is an uphill battle, and it might take a while regardless

flat gazelle
#

If you've been making games for 10 years, just show some of the stuff you've shipped, and that should be enough of a protfolio.

brazen oyster
tidal moth
brazen oyster
tidal moth
#

ugh don't get me started on this topic

waxen phoenix
#

@bright sage Hey Mate. tagged you in here cuz its sort of related, but just wanted to say I really dig the website. Super well made and lots of pertinent info readily available that answers questions. Well done!

bright sage
digital gate
vagrant brambleBOT
#

:triangular_flag_on_post: victoria#2181 received strike 1. As a result, they were muted for 10 minutes.

median snow
pastel estuary
#

hey hey, besides the #rules stating so, this channel's topic also mentions:
"Talk about working in the industry, getting a job, and anything else career-related. Hiring or looking for work? See instructions for posting on the job board."

steady pewter
#

yet I always seem to fail on technical c++ test

craggy nacelle
#

Did you find the C++ test difficult? Did you get any feedback on why you failed it?

tidal moth
#

do you have friends or mentors you could send the test to and ask for feedback on?

#

if the tests are to implement a complete system or some such, maybe it's an idea to test the code before delivering it

#

that alone might tell you something

steady pewter
#

Epic being smart here. Most devs will shoot themselves in the foot if UE was more multithreaded.

tidal moth
#

honestly I'm glad that someone is bringing stuff like this up. I think there's a missing parity between what knowledge is expected from juniors across many roles in the industry

craggy nacelle
#

Not sure if I've ever had to do any kind of multithreading in my 20 years of software dev :p

#

Like sure I've worked with threads to a degree, but I've never really had to explicitly deal with multithreading primitives and deadlocks and what have you

#

Still given my background I'm sure I could pick up the necessary info pretty quickly if needed, but yeah for junior positions seems maybe somewhat advanced

steady pewter
#

I would say it is pretty much domain specific. Nowadays is kinda pop also.

pure kettle
#

I'm inclined to think multithreading is more useful for production tools and compilers as opposed to something that run on average user computer. For all I know, Intel probably still churning out CPUs with just 4-threads.

#

(which is for some reason UserBenchmark is still simping on it, but I digress)

pure kettle
#

There's not much need for multithreading when it comes to games, particularly UE4.
Maybe some exception can be made with open world titles.

#

Took me some time to realise you're referring to Ubisoft's Avatar game.

#

Well, personal godspeed to you, mate.

pastel estuary
#

ogre is ooooold

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I remember being back in college and some fellow students pointed it out to me. said it'll be the unreal engine beater, dropped their unity and ue work and focused fully on ogre.
they are now teaching at the same college, teaching students unity and ue. :p

pastel estuary
#

haha

flat gazelle
#

Having worked with both Ogre and Snowdrop, I know which one I'd pick 😛

tidal moth
#

it's not ogre till it's ogre as they say 😉

flat gazelle
#

Snowdrop is great, ogre not so much

tawdry rune
#

multi threading questions aren't crazy even for juniors, it's basic theory that all coders should know the basics of

#

there is a minimum bar for programming where if you fall under it you can create negative productivity

#

although for unreal in particular I would focus more on garbage collection, the engine is multi-threaded

#

On the C++ side, C++ is very very deep

#

I usually concentrate on the basics and try to get an idea of their language experience

#

"How does the compiler implement virtual functions?" is my first C++ direct question which tell you a lot about a candidate

#

it's an elite skill for someone to write a multi threaded system architecture from scratch

#

it's not one to understand the basic terminology and gotchas

steady pewter
#

tbf, the standard does not define how virtual functions are implemented, so that not about the language.

tawdry rune
#

correct

#

asking directly about the language I also do as well

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but I find that it tells me a lot more information

steady pewter
#

shush

tawdry rune
#

do you know what's going on under the hood? it's a VERY basic question which many people completely have no idea about

#

like if you don't know what a __vptr is doing sitting in your class then what else do you not know?

#

haha reverse a string

#

nice

#

I ask questions that try to get to the heart of how serious a coder they are and whether they can solve real problems

#

just because you don't answer one of my questions correctly doesn't mean it's a no hire

flat gazelle
#

I have that problem. Getting qualified people to apply to a vfx role is nigh impossible.

tidal moth
#

in games?

steady pewter
#

Ah, heard a comment on that today:
" I wanna be a programmer in Mexico"
"Why?"
"Because I will be a senor programmer"

tawdry rune
#

it all depends what you are hiring for

#

if someone wasn't very multithread aware, but they knew other stuff that's a good thing to know right?

#

it's all gotta be in context of overall knowledge

#

I just want to understand how serious the person is about programming and how they can help get our stuff done

#

if hiring for a senior engineering role that has serious responsibility then I will judge the interview appropriately

tidal moth
steady pewter
#

You can have as many threads as sewing machines. This is a clothe company, no?

flat gazelle
#

They think it's a film compositing gig.

steel creek
#

Most of my applicants have no clue what the role is about. that feels more like a communication problem on the company if they cant describe their requirements.

tidal moth
#

ah RIP. I do design so at least it's a bit more clear. though we do occasionally get applicants that are not understanding of the roles we offer too

flat gazelle
#

Nah, it's industry wide.

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Nobody is able to hire right now.

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So the only applicants are the spam sendouts.

tidal moth
#

yeah it's a buyer's market

tawdry rune
#

VFX people are generally dificult to find

steel creek
#

I have received endless offers over the last year. Their offers are horrible, so, here I sit, doing more and more freelance

tawdry rune
#

especially good ones

#

what would a good offer look like?

steel creek
#

I am not a good person to compare with; I have over 3 decades of engineering work behind me. I dont come to the studio cheaply

tidal moth
#

I think a lot of companies don't know what to hire for, and sometimes muddy roles

flat gazelle
#

Hell I even got the title changed to FX. That reduced the spam of people looking for jobs in the VFX industry. But that just meant less applications in total xD

tawdry rune
flat gazelle
#

Oh this role is chrystal clear 😛

tidal moth
#

like I've had people send me LD roles that turned out to be environment art roles

#

(post 2004 or whenever the shift happened)

steel creek
# tawdry rune so what are you looking for in this market?

I am looking for an actual place that cares. No more spot work. Even at studios I spent a decade+, it was all just nameless work to get done. I want what we used to have: Care about me, the worker, the person doing the things; not some vapid, non-tangible goal

tawdry rune
#

so small team where you can have a big impact working closely with others on things that matter

steel creek
#

doesnt have to be small. Best team I was ever on was at Nick; that was a 50+ person team inside the larger 800+ studio

#

they have to actually CARE about what they are doing; not the ledger

tawdry rune
#

what does care mean to you?

tidal moth
#

is this more towards the films or games industry?

steel creek
# tawdry rune what does care mean to you?

quality of life. No pressure for "make these hours" -- more "make your work". That doesnt mean some hippie place that has no producers pushing people to deliver on time. This also means they listen to workers when they speak. Again, I am a bad example as I am typically mgmt. I dont need someone to speak up for me, I speak up for me. But a lot of these places try to assuage that with "gifts" and tokens of appreciation so they can avoid having actual conversations with their employees.

tawdry rune
#

just sounds like you've worked a lot of large corporate gigs

steel creek
#

and a lot of mom and pop

#

and technically out of college, I worked for myself for 7 years doing DBA and website/SEO work

tawdry rune
#

so when listening to workers, what kind of topics come to mind?

#

e.g. more creative feedback? workplace stuff?

steel creek
#

conflict resolution would be a big one

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yep, all that

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there is a lack/void/hole that has formed in these places. They "listen" but dont hear much

tidal moth
steel creek
#

they arent. I work right here along side my game friends

tidal moth
#

I've also had some confirmation from people coming from film saying that

steel creek
#

the only things games dont have over me? an actual union fighting for their rights

tawdry rune
#

film has above the line / below the line concepts

steel creek
#

indeed.

tawdry rune
#

games do as well to an extent, on the bigger productions especially

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but in film it's more ingrained

steel creek
#

I'd imagine anytime they attach a named talent, you get a budget of above/belo

tawdry rune
#

at some point it's turn the crank, churn the content

#

anyway I'm always fascinated to hear people talk about what kind of environment they want to work in

#

I'm in gaming so look at it mostly from that perspective

#

I like to think that the game becomes a reflection of the team, their abilities/aspirations/creativity

#

at some level though people do need to make decisions

tidal moth
tawdry rune
#

games lack the unions which is where the line often (but not always) lies

tidal moth
#

I do wonder where if anywhere you'd draw the line for games? at lead positions? at director positions? and at what sizes of companies?

tawdry rune
#

although visual effects in movies aren't typically unionized

tawdry rune
flat gazelle
#

puts up hand Am in union, in games.

tawdry rune
#

games aren't broadly unionized, I'm sure there are some

#

there are also different KINDS of unions, they differ quite a bit

tidal moth
tawdry rune
#

for example nordic unions are typical but don't really act like say SAG

flat gazelle
#

I'm in Sweden. Everyone in games is in the union called Unionen.

tawdry rune
#

yeah different than like the directors guild, that's just more of a normal swedish thing

#

not really A/B comparisons

tidal moth
#

I would not mind a <role> guild though, I think it would help bring legitimacy to a lot of the core roles in games production

tawdry rune
#

sure, but things have changed so quickly that it hasn't really happened

#

we haven't really gotten the roles figured out on an industry basis

tidal moth
#

I guess something's gotta come first

tawdry rune
#

yeah I'm not sure what/when that will be

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stuff keeps changing

tidal moth
#

I guess even if it was just for departments that would help. but I don't know. perhaps a start would be just getting everyone into a union, as per Sweden

tawdry rune
#

help with what exactly I think is the question

tidal moth
#

definition of roles on more than just a per studio basis and a sort of unwritten rule of what said role kind of does in the industry

#

akin to what you have with a film guild

#

then you add the general union stuff on top, ensuring people have the proper rights

tawdry rune
#

yeah but the problem is that the roles actually DO DIFFER between different ways of making games

#

it's not a theoretical issue, it's real issue

#

I mean we haven't even been able to figure out standardized credits

#

let alone actual roles

tidal moth
#

I'd be in favor of having a broader spectrum of roles that were more well defined personally

tawdry rune
#

I'm down with that, but what problem does it actually solve?

#

I think a skills sheet makes more sense

#

like a standard skills inventory

#

even that gets tricky though

tidal moth
#

I think it would help bring legitimacy to a slew of roles that are sometimes misunderstood

tawdry rune
#

example?

tidal moth
#

well take the instance of clearing a separation between environment artist and level designer

tawdry rune
#

super complex topic

#

I don't see how you cleanly separate that

tidal moth
#

perhaps it's more an issue on the side of design (and maybe art), but there's places where a definition would help in defining responsibilities, department reporting etc.

tawdry rune
#

sure but that would also reduce flexibility

tidal moth
tawdry rune
#

the exact split there is going to depend on the exact people involved, their skills & the project

#

that's my whole point, none of this is standard enough to draw those lines

tidal moth
#

and it won't be until someone starts thinking of standards

tawdry rune
#

sure and then by the time you've thought them through, a new thing happens and the old ones don't apply anymore

#

a new specialities come along

#

you could ask a dozen level/designers /artists at different companies and get way way different responses

tidal moth
#

the idea behind the guilds in film I take came from a point of having a place you could define what you did in an otherwise fairly intangible industry. as well as in other industries in some countries you have a somewhat equivalent in "protected titles". e.g. you can only call yourself a doctor if you have a medical license. in some cases that extends to engineers and architects too

tawdry rune
#

yes but film is much more straightforward

#

many of the jobs in film have been the same for the better part of a century

tidal moth
tawdry rune
#

often times people have a hard time switching companies and roles

#

so I do think that's a real issue

#

being a "level designer" on an open world game vs an arena shooter vs an RTS is a different job

tidal moth
#

well it's an issue that the definitions would seek to address

tawdry rune
#

not only are the end goals different, the work flows can vary dramatically from team to team

flat gazelle
#

What does a Tech Artist do? leaves

tawdry rune
#

haha exactly

tidal moth
#

and it's not just level designer/environment art to be fair. game design as a whole could do with a little more breaking down into subroles

tawdry rune
#

there is another one where there are about 200 different jobs that fall under game designer

#

and that again varies per type of game a lot

tidal moth
# flat gazelle What does a Tech Artist do? *leaves*

well why don't we try to define a few different types of tech artist? I know there's a broad spectrum of things to consider for tech art, but isn't it better to at least talk about what people can do and want to do in that role?

flat gazelle
#

Why?

tawdry rune
#

I mean people do ask and talk about it

#

and the result has been nothing because there simply isn't enough commonality

#

I mean that's the real issue here

#

games are extremely diverse

flat gazelle
#

And it changes over the course of a production.

tawdry rune
#

sure I could see "prototype level designer" vs "final level designer"

flat gazelle
#

A Tech Artist in preprod can be a houdini tools dev, while at the endstages it's a renderdoc monkey.

#

It would be annoying af to change title depending on what the task today is.

tidal moth
#

I think the issue isn't commonality or parity if I am being honest. I think to some degree, at least in design, it's the tacit knowledge that is ingrained in the discipline

tawdry rune
#

there are commonalities in game design for sure, but applying that to the day to day job gets difficult I think

tidal moth
flat gazelle
#

I mean, go nuts!

#

I just don't see what you solve by doing so.

tawdry rune
#

yeah same here

#

I've had this conversation a ton of times so I'm skeptical about how possible it is

#

I mean I became skeptical about it for a reason, because I've had this conversation a lot

#

meanwhile the industry keeps a rollin on changing it up

#

personally I find it a lot more interesting to talk about problems/solutions from a different angle

#

from my perspective a lot of the problems that people see in the industry come from a lack of maturation in the business and how hyper competitive games are

flat gazelle
#

To be fair, it'd be hilarious with protected titles. I am VP of Environments. (VertexPusher)

tidal moth
#

speaking only from within design, I think creating and maintaining definition would help remove some of the stigma associated with design, and would help making things more tangible in terms of role and scope. design is currently more considered to be an art more than science, and I think moving towards more methodical approaches would make it easier have an understanding of what people do. there was a talk back by a guy at Ubisoft that talked about how design often (from the outside) is perceived as idea generation. It'd be great to move away from that

tawdry rune
#

I'm trying to think of something in games that isn't more art than science

#

it all is

tidal moth
#

I also see it as part of the maturation process of an industry, that we find commonality, that roles do have parity and that parity becomes explicit

tawdry rune
#

sure, but that maturation might still be a ways off

#

I'm not terribly convinced that commonality actually exists to a large extent

tidal moth
#

it's a process, not an on/off switch IMO

#

and to be fair, if it doesn't work or doesn't stick that's fine too. but wouldn't part of the process of maturing be finding out what works and what doesn't work for the industry as a whole?

tawdry rune
#

the industry as a whole is crazy diverse though

#

I think understand the craft is important and there are definitely design truisms

#

but job roles are more dependent on what/how/who you are doing

tidal moth
#

yeah but why are we using that as an argument to not try and unify it somehow?

tawdry rune
#

I dunno, what's the argument as to why unifying it makes any sense?