#career-chat

1 messages · Page 89 of 1

fickle hatch
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Massive in comparison to what?

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Organizing a thousand people together is a challenge of its own kind

flat gazelle
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Putting things in perspective, Ubi is the largest games company in the world atm afaik. Google hires the equivalent of 2 Ubisofts per year.

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That number is a few years old though so it's probably more now.

drifting stratus
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Well talking specifically about games

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I think Activision, EA, and Ubisoft is like, the biggest of all

fickle hatch
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Google probably has entire departments that are still around just because whoever is responsible for them forgot about them 😄

drifting stratus
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I mean Google needs to be split up

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It's too big as a company

fickle hatch
drifting stratus
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Honestly, I think it's going to happen in the next 5-10 years no matter what I do lol

digital gate
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great reason to do nothing

junior wraith
sharp egret
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Funny Rockstar story circa 2018, I applied there (during my Audio Engineering days) to be an Audio Dev Assistant, I had no CS background at all, and was extremely forthcoming in ensuring that I don't claim to have a skill that I really don't, I was interviewed by one of the audio leads and felt like I had a really nice and pleasant experience, and they seemed happy with me too. I get a mail next day from Rockstar India rejecting my application citing no reason.

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Now with my CS ug in hand, I shall try my luck again, hopefully I at least get a reason, I've worked hard for it. :p

frigid grove
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Hi Guys just a simple question... I am developer and I want to focus on Unreal Engine with C++/BP, do I need to learn Light/Rig/LevelDesign/Animation to find a job on the area?

covert tulip
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Hello. do u think if i try to find someone for a 0 budget game, someone will accept? (Obviously I'm looking for people who are newbie on UE4 and other software ) Or it would be an useless "call to arms"

steady pewter
steady pewter
grim hull
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If anything, I'd say experience programming with C++ outside of UE4 is probably more valuable than any of those things to you.

frigid grove
wary idol
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I would argue that knowing all those other thing is very valuable, if you have to develop tools for artists and designers having knowledge in those areas will help greatly

frigid grove
grim hull
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@wary idol Sounds more like tech artist territory at that point

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(Which is also a pretty in-demand skillset)

wary idol
# frigid grove You mean something like IK?

For example I recently worked on our custom animation tool for UE4, understanding and having previous experience with animations helped me understand what's the usual animation workflow and how my tools should work

wary idol
frigid grove
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Thanks guys, I will check how I will do this migration, I am doing a prototype at the moment based on rpg mechanics to understand better the engine and make in few month I will be ready 😄

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as a junior again

flat gazelle
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If your behaviour on this server is any indication, I see why.

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There are 15k+ members here. It's a tiny industry.

pastel estuary
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have to agree with Glad though, this industry is small and the weirdest things could haunt you

vagrant brambleBOT
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Something went wrong. Check the logs for details.

pastel estuary
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he speaks from experience, and cant blame him with the way you have been expressing yourself

flat gazelle
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I'm sorry you feel that way Dan. I've tried to give you advice and I'm not sure how that's Gatekeeping.

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Or do you mean that it's gatekeeping when I approve of the existance of senior roles? If so, then Yes. I guess I am.

flat gazelle
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No thanks.

pastel estuary
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If you are sending your resume to apply for a Game Design position anywhere, and you are fresh out of school, read this:
https://twitter.com/kurtmargenau/status/1364736818046926849

also, use artstation!

and watch these "Killer Portfolio or Portfolio Killer" videos!
https://www.google.com/search?q=portfolio+killer+or+killer+portfolio

Kurt Margenau (@kurtmargenau)

If you are sending your resume to apply for a Game Design position anywhere, and you are fresh out of school, please for the love of God:

  1. HAVE A PORTFOLIO - show games you've built, IN ACTION with embedded youtube videos. Describe somewhere what you did on the game. 1/7
Retweets

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Likes

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Twitter ·
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pinning that.

pastel estuary
dry hill
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Messages got removed it seems like? What was the crux of the discussion?

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I can only gather something like "senior roles are a bad thing"?

EDIT: Ah, seems like only the last parts of the discussion got removed. Still lots further up I think.

flat gazelle
pastel estuary
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i think the main thing it misses is "use artstation" :p

flat gazelle
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Which I disagree with for VFX xD

pastel estuary
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ha true, it just doesnt feel right besides a few outliers who put up grandeur vfx stuff (so not some flamesies)

flat gazelle
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Yeah, whenever I get a vfx portolio to look over on Artstation, it's always so messy. You have to click around to find projects. Some are split up in pages, some are long blog posts.

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Just send me a nicely edited reel.

dry hill
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Lots of nice tools for this

unknown.png
flat gazelle
dry hill
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Sorta, though I'm not such a fan of linkedin for just resumes

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It's useful though

flat gazelle
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That way I know where to find things, I can collapse things down, it has easy links to more info.

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I'll take a LinkedIn application over a messy CV any day.

dry hill
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Sure, but that's where tools like flow come in. They're not messy

flat gazelle
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I really just don't like to have to hunt for information about an applicant.

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But they still vary wildly with where the info is, it limits what info you can include and it has limited space.

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If I just want to read more about the projects the applicant has worked on, I most likely have to do that somewhere other than the CV whereas on linkedIn I go to the projects tab.

dry hill
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True, that makes sense

frigid grove
lilac walrus
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depending on what position you're going for, I'd probably suggest that most of this CV is irrelevant - but also this is not a good CV. There is almost nothing in here suggesting why I should hire you to work in games

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I'd probably cut out the piles of superfluous technology jargon and actually talk about what you did

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nobody in games cares much about "Web Systems Development using Java Enterprise Edition with JBoss 6." as an example

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they might be more interested about the kinds of projects you worked on and what kind of role you took in those projects

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on a related note, the most interesting (almost the only) game thing you have in there is a link to that RPG prototype, but there's no information about it on your CV, and the itch page is almost totally blank

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even the screenshot is not helpful; you could have provided video content or whatever, or some details about what you implemented, but there's nothing

frigid grove
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I will remove the tech that I was using on the companies and describe the products that I worked on, thanks it was a really good feedback to me

grim hull
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@frigid grove I would say keep the programming experience.
At my company, we are willing to hire people with less game engine experience if they have more programming experience. Solving technical problems, collaborating with a programming team, and good software engineering practices are critical for game programmers. There are some people we interview who have worked for years in game engines like Unity and Unreal, but their programming skills are weak, so we don't hire them.
For your games, it might also be good to mention some of the more complex or core systems you put together for the game.

frigid grove
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Thanks, I am reducing the information about the tech that I used and add it as description of the projects that I did in each company

strange jolt
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has anyone here made 250k + ?

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im really scared to make that much

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im scared to be rich

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i think im gonna have a nervous breakdown lmfao

fickle hatch
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Do you mean from one project, or over lifetime or what

strange jolt
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one project

fickle hatch
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Do you mean the company made 250k or I personally made 250k off it? 😄

strange jolt
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i made

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im getting 25 pct

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one project

fickle hatch
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Get happy and get a financial advisor

strange jolt
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i think im gonna have a nervous breakdown lmfaooo

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my partner wants me to move out to cali with him

fickle hatch
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Take deep breaths

strange jolt
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i always wanted to go to cali

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im from NY

fickle hatch
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Get a financial advisor and figure out how you can invest it and what would be the best form for holding the money for you etc etc

strange jolt
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im starting to understand why the guy from flappy bird had a breakdown

pure flame
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That's a great accomplishment! Congrats! What game, if you don't mind me asking?

strange jolt
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@pure flame well sorry the way i made it sound...but the game is in alpha stages right now and we are scaling it up and adding new features every day and my partner and i both believe we can easily make that much

fickle hatch
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It is not an unreasonable target

pure flame
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Gotcha. Well good luck and keep us informed!

digital gate
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@strange jolt careful not to forget the work in all the excitement

strange jolt
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you are the one that invited me to the group

digital gate
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That's really cool!

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That feels like so long ago

carmine heron
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hi! i’m really new to unreal and animation and know almost nothing, but a tutorial that i was watching told me to find a mentor so i was wondering if anyone knew where i could possibly look for one? i’m 15 btw and i’m trying to take part in a competition

steady pewter
cold inlet
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Second the tutorials that way you know the basics and if you find someone willing to mentor you can get to the more advanced stuff faster

stuck mountain
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What is a good amount of time to play video games a day/week; so I can both play games and make games. Need work/gaming balance

fickle hatch
stuck mountain
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I want to tho lol

fickle hatch
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Nobody will stop you xD

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But seriously though it’s just like any other job. You play games in free time if you wanna. Don’t make it interfere with the job, etc

pure flame
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If you are asking about working on a game in your spare time vs. gaming in your spare time, then there is no clear cut answer. Make goals for yourself and achieve them every two weeks and put in whatever time is necessary to achieve attainable goals. Or, play games when you feel a lack of drive for the project and come back when you miss it. It will only take as long to complete as the time you put into it.

plucky hatch
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I worry i don't play enough games lol so i force myself to play a few even when i dont want to

hybrid phoenix
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Plenty of professional developers I know play loads of games in their spare time

flat gazelle
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raises hand

hybrid phoenix
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In my experience, most devs definitely play less than they did before they got into gamedev

flat gazelle
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Also true

hybrid phoenix
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I'm in that crowd myself as well

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Time's more split between hobby gamedev projects and playing games

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Instead of all just going into games

flat gazelle
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It's like going pro in football. Once your entire day is about football, you might not want to put in the 8 hours after work playing it, that you did before. But that doesn't stop you from playing when you feel like it.

hybrid phoenix
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Yep, that pretty much nails it

brittle harbor
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Hi, I'm Matt and I'm currently a games Dev student. my question for the people working in the games industry is, is it worth it? is it like what you study? the 3 years I've spent in college, I feel like they've hardly taught us any skills that are needed to make a game. we've worked on apps, so just making UI, using a template for movement, adding assets in, that's pretty much it, the rest of the work which is around 75-80% is just document work. if I went to a job interview at a company I genuinely feel if I was asked what I learned at college I would only be able to say "proficiency in Microsoft office". I've learnt more outside of college than I have in college, which I'm guessing is expected, but everything we've done in college has really put me off. I had aspirations to either join or form an indie company with friends or other Devs, trying to make great games people would play, but I'm honestly not sure I want to be apart of the game industry because of my course. I've had tutors who do nothing but play videos or talk about their lengthy experience in the industry, showing off work and stuff, others slating AAA companies, others just teaching the course but have never actually done anything in the games industry, so it's like I'm getting taught by people who have never actually worked in the games industry, but say all these things about the industry that put you off. so I just want to know from people actually within the industry, what is it like? is it worth it? should I stay or pursue another career path?

flat gazelle
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  1. It's nothing like university. Even students from a good one will learn more in the first 6 months at a studio than the whole time they studied. And yours doesn't sound very good.
  2. What it's like will vary. It depends on who you are and what you enjoy doing? It's always going to be a team effort. It's messy and it's hard. It's also the best damn career there is.
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@brittle harbor

brittle harbor
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see because my college is terrible, my tutors would say the projects weve done are good opportunities, but when i look back, they havent really benefit us at all, like i said in my last message it was a case of opening up ue4, dragging assets in, making sure you could walk around fine with the thirdperson template, and adding a bare minimum ui. like studying games development, the name alone you would expect to do games development, the most games dev thing ive got from my tutors was either on my final major projects or a side project and i asked for help. im only on a level 3 course, ive still got the bachelor of arts degree to earn, but i dont know if its worth studying another 3-4 years in the same college (because no other university near me does bachelor of arts and studying in another city would be difficult), so if i study the course which ill have to pay around 7000 a year for, im expecting it to be just like the other 3 years ive studied, and i dont want to have studied 6 years of game development to come out and say i learned how to make apps, because one of the projects i was supposed to do this year got cancelled due to covid and we couldnt do development, and has been moved to the next academic year, so it is inevitable that i will end up being forced to do another app

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the city i live in has hardly any game dev companies worth applying to, i think theres 5 that are known, the rest have either been abandoned or havent made games since 2001

ashen lynx
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@brittle harbor game development is a branch, not a profession. So studying game development itself already sounds shady.

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Gotta pick your specialisation.

green oyster
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ive still got the bachelor of arts degree to earn, but i dont know if its worth studying another 3-4 years in the same college if you want to do game art, that sounds like a waste. If you're focused, you can maybe find something in a year - self-learn (there's a ton of really good courses online now), do some pro bono work on indie projects for experience, finalize portfolio, apply to junior positions

digital gate
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@brittle harbor that college sounds really sketch, diploma mill stuff. If you're a programmer and skilled, it's possible to get noticed and have interviews without a degree. I don't know if artists care that much, but perhaps.

Any case, I suggest you either find a school that'll teach, or abandon academia and start working directly on stuff that pushes your limits.

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it's really a worse education than you can get off youtube

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literally I have a youtuber I explicitly never recommend. I would recommend you learn from that channel, instead of this course you're outlining (and no I won't actually link it).

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however, that doesn't necessarily apply to every role. If you're a level designer I would expect learning map design to feel like you're dropping assets in and making sure you can walk. If you're disinterested.

brittle harbor
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"Gotta pick your specialisation"
out of everything they've "taught" in college, I'd have to go with 3d modelling, rigging and ue4, I've learned Maya and blender, I know the basics of rigging in blender, I can use substance painter good enough I think, and can do the basics of an FPS with blueprints. the only downside is I don't know C++, like most companies use, they don't teach it in my college, think the reason was, "you can do the same as what you can do with code with blueprints" which I know is wrong. I'm not aiming for a triple a company, I'd rather work at Indies, as they tend to produce more exciting games (imo not criticising, I just prefer most indie games to triple a games) so would you recommend I finish this year at college, get my grade and just either take online courses, get some of my more needed skills up like c++, then apply for junior roles and see where things go? because honestly if I stay at college studying these courses I'll end up spending longer finding another career path, the course just isn't what I expected, I'm lucky I haven't paid for it, UK education and somewhat been useful

steady pewter
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Having general knowledge should be enough to make you decide on what you like most and focus on it.

digital gate
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You seem like you like having a hand in everything. You can't show up to ... well anywhere and be a generalist without a sizeable portfolio demonstrating it all. @brittle harbor

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Even then, what people really want is multi-specialists. 2 or maybe 3 skills where you're highly skilled

brittle harbor
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id rather learn more than i need to know than not know enough, in college during projects ive had to rely on myself because either everyone else doesnt know enough, they dont bother paying attention or i have to pick up their work load. ive got a portfolio right now showing my modelling work, but i need to add other stuff like rigs, ue4 environments, some of the gameplay ive made even if it is shocking

digital gate
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You say you're not "aiming for" AAA, you're okay with the small fry due to the interesting output.

Good indie, I mean novel mechanics and high polish indie. You have to be good. A bad hire is way more impactful to them than the big guys. The teams have to be smaller, with less time. It's more difficult to get the AAA interviews, but there's a lot less of this Wear-All-The-Hats

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Also that's a pretty good outlook, that's going to help you but remember to not be the hero that ships the project every time

brittle harbor
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i know it would be different working with people who want to put the work in, because obviously attending college not everyone wants to put the work in and get the same results as you, i was looking at udemy courses that teach c++ so i might buy one and learn some c++ and get my skills up in that area because i know the majority of companies dont use ue4 blueprints, theyre convenient but i dont think its worth saying "yeah im good with blueprints in ue4"

digital gate
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It's absolutely worth it. BP gets a bad rep

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search up that debate in any channel here (heh, you can guess). Anyway, it's a skill that you have and can be beneficial

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You don't need a coder every time you make a variant of a game object that does a new visual.

hybrid phoenix
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Yeah, we've discussed that at large over the years, but really, blueprint is a very valuable skill. If you're a programmer, you also definitely need C++ (in most cases, there is exceptions) to get hired. In pretty much any other role, it'll just be a big plus that you won't need a programmer to help you out on every little thing you try to do that doesn't fit in the existing framework

clear portal
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Hey, I need a small advice:
After being self-employed for a year I got hired by one of the companies I worked for. It all went smoothly in the beginning, but after the first year I now struggle with going to work. It's a mix of overwhelming stuff and no clear direction I think, since I'm leading a crazy project.
So I really hate my job now. It was supposed to be 20h/week so I could do otherstuff on the side, but now it's technically still 20h/week but it takes my complete week. I arrive every day super late, struggle sometimes to even go there and just sit in front of my PC at home with no motivation to do anything. Since new year I have aquired -56 hours.
It sounds stupid, but I feel like I'm not able to work anymore. Even if I finally manage to get to the job I don't feel like doing anything productive. I like the company owner, and I cannot quit before the project is ready, because that would be unfair and like half a year or more of my work would be completely wasted.

It cannot continue like that, so what would you do?

pastel estuary
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hmm sounds like burnout, or should i say: smells like burnout

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  1. find out if it is burnout
  2. if it is, find out how to deal with it
  3. discuss/talk with employer about how you feel and if its a good employer im sure you'll work things out.
clear portal
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Most common burnout symptoms:

Exhaustion ✅ 
Lack of energy ✅ 
Constant fatigue ✅ 
Sleep disorders ✅ 
Reduced performance ✅ 
Concentration and memory problems ✅ 
Inability to make decisions ❓ 
Reduced initiative and imagination ❓

🤔 maybe I should go to a doctor?
But those problems are so universal, it probably doesn't mean I have this exact thingy :3

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exhaustion and lack of energy and constant fatigue are kind of the same thing I guess and will lead to sleeping disorders and that will lead to reduced performance and so on... 😅

hybrid phoenix
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Well, there's a pretty big burnout indicator

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Which is you specifically not liking the job

ashen lynx
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I was born with these symptoms. It is not burnout. It is life.

craggy nacelle
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Sounds like you need to see a doctor if the symptoms have been going that long :P

clear portal
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Yeah.. my plan is to quit anyway in November when my contract runs out, and until then the project needs to be finished. There is no other way around it, else I would feel forever guilty for not delivering and being paid to archive nothing. :>

hybrid phoenix
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Just make sure to evaluate your mental state carefully - losing your drive in life is a lot easier than regaining it, and it's a far better choice to take a hit to your ego and wallet than it is to be stuck in a rut for the next few years because you pushed yourself too hard.

clear portal
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Yes. But a part of professionalism is that you do the job reliable no matter how you feel (to a degree ofc).
And technically it's well paid and I just need to endure it a couple more months. I bet other people experience waaay worse situations, so it's more like a challenge.

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But what's the best way to deal with that struggle of just going to work and doing a job you don't like and feel super exhausted doing that? (:

craggy nacelle
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Realize that it's just a job and it doesn't matter

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If the business does well or not doesn't rest on your shoulders and also will not affect you

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You don't have to like the job you're doing. Plenty of folks who go to work to do something because it pays money, and then come home... so that's pretty much it

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Software can be exhausting because it takes a lot of mental energy, but you don't have to spend so much of it that you run out for the above reasons

steel creek
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^ and just make sure to be honest with the team/leader/owner/whomever you need to be honest with about your situation. It is just a job, but it is also just a job for other people as well. You are not in this alone; nor should they be.

magic kettle
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Hi guys! I'm currently a CSCI major and with everything going on with COVID-19, I'm really struggling to find internships - especially one related to game development. I have a personal portfolio but no actual work experience, and with less than ~2 years of schooling left, I'm starting to get a little nervous.

Does anyone have any resources or recommendations? Where do I even begin to look? Every single internship that I've been able to find is super competitive and/or located across the country (I'm currently in Denver). Are game design internships difficult to land? What has your experience been? I would love some more information, as I'm going to be launched out of college with no experience to speak of very soon

viral thorn
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Goodday friends ..
I have a question .
An institute made a VR class for the student and They dont know alot in Ue4 they want me to make course for them but its first time for me idk how it costs something like that can someone help me please

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I think this channel is the right one xD

lilac walrus
# magic kettle Hi guys! I'm currently a CSCI major and with everything going on with COVID-19, ...

Internships in games tend to be for graduates, so if you're more than a year away there won't be much out there for you yet - but also they are quite rare since only the largest development studios can really afford to do them, and the competition for them is always extremely high (hundreds of applicants). Since competition is high, the quality of your personal projects and portfolio prior to applying is going to be key, and that in itself probably represents a significant investment of time post-graduation. Given that you apparently live in Denver, except to have to uproot yourself and move halfway across the continent to find something - this is not limited to internships, this is just going to be how working in games goes if you do not already live in a development hub.

Game design internships largely don't exist, I've never heard of one. It's a field where even junior positions are not that commonly advertised since a lot of designers step into their role sideways from another development position. You would be much more likely to find internships in engineering or art disciplines.

hybrid phoenix
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That, indeed ^

gentle island
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has anyone taken think tank's online class?

lilac walrus
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never heard of it

hybrid phoenix
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^

steady pewter
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Take think thank to tank thinking of thank think tank 🧠

stuck mountain
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I am thinking about learning graphics programming (Direct X, Open GL. vulken). Is it worth it to know those in the games industry

hybrid phoenix
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Competent graphics programmers are probably some of the most in-demand people in the industry

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But it's not exactly the sort of thing that you'll find junior positions for

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It's a specialisation, and you'll be years into it before you're likely to really be able to do much useful with it

stuck mountain
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I think that that would be something I would like to do. I will need to fix my math skills tho. I am going to study the crap out of linear algebra.

hybrid phoenix
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Study it as it comes up

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You'll have way more motivation to plow through the math stuff when you have a reason to be looking into it

vagrant brambleBOT
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:no_entry_sign: TheBeardedMustache#9194 was banned.

lilac walrus
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ta

vagrant brambleBOT
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:triangular_flag_on_post: Lebryant Johnson#2014 received strike 1. As a result, they were muted for 10 minutes.

spice dagger
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This is not the right channel no.

hybrid phoenix
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Heads-up for these deals that Packt pays horribly, does basically nothing for you aside from printing the book and the odds of actually making money off them are very slim, no matter what they might say - they have no interest in ensuring single books perform well, they just pump out as many as they can get people to write

pastel estuary
honest cipher
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lol holy fuck

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that atrocious

lilac walrus
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yeah, it's garbage

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it's even worse than the last time I told them to go fuck themselves and never contact me again 😂

pastel estuary
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and now --just when ue4 was about to release-- they are contacting any and everybody who has even the slightest presence on social media.

lilac walrus
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that's what they did when UE4 was new

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I previously wrote material for the 3dBuzz books back in the day - but they paid like, actual money

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they paid more per-chapter than Packt do for an entire book, and it wasn't an advance on royalties 😂

pastel estuary
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its also funny how they always contact people with "looking for co-author" while in fact they looking for a slave to write the whole thing

lilac walrus
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the thing is, when you pay bananas, all you get are monkeys

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so a lot of the content that they put out is absolutely terrible (they don't even provide proper editing)

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but I don't think they care, since their market is 'anyone stupid enough to pay for this'

pastel estuary
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XD like that kismet book I purchased back when udk was a thing
horrible washed out b/w images and even worse written text that did not match images and vice versa.
i so wrote a review about it, and author was like "i wanted the reader to figure out things for themselves"
sure buddy, in a kismet for beginners book you dont do that kinda sheit

lilac walrus
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lol, black and white images for kismet 😄

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"please enjoy this grey rectangle"

steady pewter
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That reminds me of my first Visual C++ book, like 20y ago or so. For beginners too. It was full of typos... imagine the frustration trying to learn C++.

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Title was sorta "Learning VC in 21 days" or along the lines. Very misleading.

fickle hatch
hybrid phoenix
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I'd say 30 pages for 1800's already not great

fickle hatch
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It isn't, but hey, one pass, mindless writing, no strings demanding the result is useful, sounds fine to me

hybrid phoenix
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Fair enough

frigid grove
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@grim hull @wary idol and @lilac walrus thanks for the advises, I just got my first interview scheduled at a game company 😄

pastel estuary
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goodluck!

frigid grove
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Thanks

zinc geode
green oyster
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Are you sure .txt is the right format for a resume?

steel creek
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that is more the cover letter for the resume, which, as pointed out, would be better suited to another text layout format: docx, pdf, html even.

In the least, if you want to use this as a 'resume', you should truncate the lines at 80 chars (i.e. carriage return) as 80 columns on standard paper is still, well, the standard.

And it is decidedly long. You should only use a cover letter to explain who you are, why you are seeking employment with whomever, and what you can offer them as an employee.

The depth of explanation here is better reserved for their questions during interview, if they probe such. Just highlights of the projects and services you have provided/done in job related activities.

Kudos to just starting out; you look to have a solid foundation of experience already.

zinc geode
uncut pollen
zinc geode
#

Thank you so much, I am really glad about all the support!

turbid crescent
#

Hello. I'm wondering where I could work out the cost of hiring a programmer to build the basic foundation of our game in Unreal. I'm looking at my options for making a contract job.

hidden dust
#

Hey! Quick question, im planning on taking computer sciemce as career next year, trying to move away from electrical engineering. Any tip on how to prepare myself and if i should even attempt to move or stick with electrical engineering? I kinda dislike it but if it has good outcomes i wouldn't mind taking it back 😅

spice dagger
#

Have you done any programming before?

#

If you already have an Electrical Engineering degree, you will probably breeze through most of a Bachelors in CS.

shut token
light horizon
#

My career is hacking

#

I have made more than 4 clients and am earning 4500$ which is high

#

compared to my country's average wage

#

I am going to invest and leave hacking for good 😄

valid dune
#

Hey guys, I just cranked out a new portfolio, can you guys critique it and let me know if I have enough skills to get me a job in the industry? I'm the typical Jack of all trades type, so I don't know which field is best. I hear Game Design jobs are held for the higher ups. So entry level programming as a visual blueprint scripter, is that a thing? Animation? What do you guys think based on this portfolio. @ or DM if you have some solid input, thanks! https://chrisdevvlog.wixsite.com/portfolio

ChrisLarue
Home | Portfolio
hybrid phoenix
#

Jobs as blueprint programmer are pretty much not a thing - it's almost always just a nice-to-have for other roles

#

Overall, you're going to struggle to find anything when you market yourself as a generalist

#

I'd strongly recommend picking a field that you're most happy working in, and to focus your portfolio etc. around that

fickle hatch
#

I didn’t look at the reel yet since I’m on a phone, but at a glance the CV looks appealing for a small indie kinda video game company. The extra logistics and driving experience can be valuable to a niche project - and a small company can use more of a generalist.

But also that feels a bit at odds with maybe what you want. An indie company can’t exactly offer that experience and the larger companies mostly need specialists

valid dune
#

@fickle hatch @abstract acorn You guys are both right, I have my own indie company, but I'm tired of being broke ass all the time haha. Sales have been weak (as most indies suffer with) so my skills are all self taught but I am a generalist. In a way, I am kinda bummed I have to specialize in some ways to join the job market. It makes total sense to do so, but as someone who's worked on multiple manufacturing lines, it get's mind numbing pretty quick haha

#

After learning Blueprints, id say I'm intermediate in skill level at it, I know I have to learn C++

#

I am enjoying being a programmer more than I did as a 3d artist or even animator. You actually can make a game once you know what you're doing

#

As for a more interesting vision than being in a senior position, my long term goal is to have my own small studio and make enough sales to have a small team from 2 to max 25 people. Reality is, I started my own studio back in 2016, worked full time as a truck driver while moonlighting, made one game. Kept making teams with sketchy people that bail easy because life (full time work) gets in the way

craggy nacelle
#

I dunno if you really have to specialize that much... all my career I've been a generalist with a couple areas of particular expertise, but my value for my employers is always the fact that they can throw nearly any problem at me and I can come up with a solution... because I know a little bit about everything lol

valid dune
#

I'm a decent animator both 3D and 2D

#

Anywho, thank you guys for giving me some critiquing

fickle hatch
valid dune
fickle hatch
#

AAA gaming company is like a big factory. You need either people who can work the equipment of this factory well, or people who can create new factory tools and machines and organize the workflows

valid dune
#

I just kept having people come in strong, ready to kick ass then once they realized games are work, they slowly peace out.

fickle hatch
#

I hope it feels intuitively on why a factory might want specialists to run its milling machines and such. They have a Big Plan and the Big Blueprint and they just need a workforce to crunch through the raw amount of workhours mostly

valid dune
#

You're certainly not wrong

fickle hatch
#

The space for a generalist opens up in managing the factory (understanding all the parts of the working process is p. amazing) and in expanding/adjusting/fine-tuning this factory for new projects and such

valid dune
#

So should I try my thumb at producing?

#

I'd think I'd need a few more projects under my belt before that

#

And training in leadership

fickle hatch
#

But for 100 factory workers you need 1 person to oversee the production, so don't expect it to be easy to find any opening, need lots of networking and/or lots of tangible experience behind yourself

valid dune
#

Indeed. I'd need a proven track record.

fickle hatch
#

Or lots of charisma

#

Better yet, both

#

It's all just a bias to the random luck

valid dune
#

I think my best option is to be an animator if I get a job with a studio. Personally, I'm working on another project now which shows promise, but it will still take months before I can seek funding/grants. And, boy, I'm at the level where I'm eating dust haha

#

I know, if I had a few more games on the market, my odds are better. Double that if it has some name recognition (which is no easy task)

#

I'm definitely charismatic haha.

fickle hatch
digital seal
#

I am never doing a debugging service again

#

Imagine working 3 hours past your initial arrangement. Fixing all the bugs and providing solutions to bugs like: The reason why the camera goes beneath the floor when the character ragdolls, is because its attached to the mesh and needs to be re-parented to the box/capsule collision. Only for them to be like: Oh we cant do that because it will affect the way this part works etc. Basically all the bugs were just bad practices stacked with systems depending on the bad pracitices. And then after youve done all the work through share screen, had it approved by your client via share screen. Received last payment and then a day later have a paypal dispute opened claiming the work was not completed.

#

I encourage all freelancers to be just as picky about their clients as clients are with their employees.

#

I have a big list of why I will reject a client now and it includes: If your budget only accounts for me, If you cant communicate effectively, If your condescending and think you know better when your hiring someone to fix a problem you cant solve.

I'm becoming more and more aware of why freelance programmers charge like 50/hour

steel creek
#

more like 110+, but yes

fickle hatch
#

50/hour is more like basic art

#

The reasonable freelance programming starts in three digits indeed

digital seal
#

Really? I been undercutting myself alot then lol

strange jolt
#

@digital seal could have made another camera that switches to ragdoll 😛 lol

#

has anyone here made a million dollars in game sales?

digital seal
#

@strange jolt that was one of the solutions i provided but it apparently would cause a conflict

#

Its like your task is to fix a bug, but if you fix the bug it will mess up a dozen other things which means youll have to redevelop all of them. And they knew this they just wanted to try and get a free ride out of me

somber brook
#

I'm trying to assess how applying to multiple roles in a studio comes across. Especially a big one like EA. Does it matter if I've applied to multiple roles? So far, I've applied to a couple, 2 of which are active and 1 most recently on wednesday as they've all been for games I'm excited about. But there 2 available that aren't exactly my passion but they're still equivalent experience requirement roles and will potentially give me an in.

Since I'm out of a job atm and looking for one, does it make sense to just send in the applications for those 2 as well?

stuck mountain
#

I found a potential opportunity to get a job at a large IT company. I want to take it, but I worry that I can't do game dev as my real job after that. Looking to make an indie game, would this year or three at that company be a good time to do that on the side?

digital gate
# somber brook I'm trying to assess how applying to multiple roles in a studio comes across. Es...

So I did this, the company was entirely bemused (used here to mean: "confused, but also slightly amused" - not the actual definition but it should be imo). It didn't shine a poor light on me, and I interviewed with a buncha folks from either position (kind of standard there).

It didn't actually change my chances. They didn't pick up one and then see the other when they searched me in the system. I did something else, got noticed via that, and it was an internal referral that got things moving for me.

Apply away, just know it's only a miniscule tool and should be augmented with other approaches.

somber brook
#

Were the positions you applied for within the same game team though?

#

Because in this case, I'm looking at literally different games that I'm applying for the different positions

#

The 2 I applied for so far are both I'm genuinely excited to work on and have played previously. The other 2, not so much. I am however, well qualified for all 4 = all 4 being mid-level game design positions with my skillset requirements

digital gate
hybrid phoenix
#

@somber brook You're using roles and positions interchangeably in your messages, but I think the disctinction's actually really important in this context. I can very much imagine it being a red flag for HR if someone applies for four different roles, because it's a likely indicator that you're a generalist and not that well-suited to a specific task. If you're applying to multiple positions in the same role, i.e. environment art on game X and environment art on game Y, I really don't think that'll ever be an issue

dry hill
#

I can very much imagine it being a red flag for HR if someone applies for four different roles, because it's a likely indicator that you're a generalist and not that well-suited to a specific task.
Also often no extra pay 😄

EDIT: Derp, I can't read. I read that as HR advertising the same job with 4 different roles 🤦‍♂️

digital gate
placid geyser
placid geyser
somber brook
#

I am in touch with a designer on game X who was a previous work colleague and he says it shouldn't be an issue, so fingers crossed. As you said though, looks like my game Y application is safe, as I 'm pretty excited about that opportunity

lilac walrus
#

generally speaking, no

#

"technical designers" also exist, but they don't tend to do so much actual game design

valid dune
#

What's a good job title for someone who did almost everything on a project? I'm working on my CV and have no clue how to narrow it down haha

hybrid phoenix
#

Whatever position you're looking to get, potentially?

valid dune
#

lol Well I can do many things, I can do bp junior level programming, I can 3d/2D animate I can do level design

#

As a solo dev, you can do what needs to be done

#

I'm also having trouble narrowing which way I want to be bottle necked into

#

This decision ways heavy on me. I'm not deep enough into programming, but I could dedicate time to learn C++ written, but it would still take months before I can be good enough to finish a white board test. As for animation and art, there is always jobs but it pays less and it seems like they are the first to get chopped

hybrid phoenix
#

Varies by studio. If you're a three-man studio, you'll probably be designer

#

If you're actually CEO in the meaning of that title, rather than just "I'm the founder so I'm CEO", odds are you'll be doing very different things

flat gazelle
#

Yeah, a company large enough to have an actual C-suite will not have any hands on work for the CEO.

#

But it's not a protected title afaik so you could call yourself CEO of your own freelancing buisness. It just doesn't mean anything.

steady pewter
#

A person has so much time. Coding can be for fun, but running a big company is not a small work.

hybrid phoenix
#

Tim Sweeney was a programmer and is now a CEO, with a passion for the business he's building so he involves himself with the tech. I doubt he still does much programming on a day-to-day basis.

#

You don't have to be CEO if you're founder and majority shareholder, though. You can hire a CEO and continue to do programming work yourself - in fact, often times that's actually wise, because being a good founder doesn't make you a good manager of a scaled company

#

The company I currently work for has 15-20ish employees, and the CEO struggles to find time to do programming and game design, which he's very frustrated about because he'd much rather be a programmer/designer than a manager

flat gazelle
#

I would be surprised if Sweeny did more than a weeks worth of coding a year. He might code for fun in the sparetime, but I doubt he's pushing code to Unreal.

placid geyser
#

Sweeney may sit in technical meetings as well as business meetings, and keep abreast of cutting edge tech via his own research and resources forwarded to him by employees, but actual time sitting behind a PC, plus taking part in code reviews or team management like a lead is likely not in his day-to-day

dry hill
hybrid phoenix
#

It's a problem if you're still picky about how your company is run

#

And/or you don't want to spend money to get a separate, skilled CEO

dry hill
#

At least, high ranking positions like that I haven't had good experience seeing easily filled with good people.

hybrid phoenix
#

But there's definitely a solid market of "C-suite for hire" kinds of things

dry hill
hybrid phoenix
#

Because the person that's good at building a company from zero is not the same person as the one that can scale it from ten people to two hundred. And neither of those are the same person as the one that can properly run a company with hundreds or thousands of employees

#

It's not a hard thing to let go if you recognize that you are no longer the best person to be running your operations

#

I'm very much in entrepreneurial circles, and for many (maybe even most) of the founder-become-CEO types I know, they felt elated when they could finally let go of the operations side of things

#

Because it's not what they love doing, it's not what they're good at, and it's not where their ambitions lie

#

That's why people 'sell out'

#

Or at the very least get partnerships going with people that do love that stuff

dry hill
#

Clever, yeah

hybrid phoenix
#

(I went to school for this stuff, spent a lot of time thinking about it)

dry hill
#

Not much appeal in doing something you dislike, beyond that it's nice to be able to pay the rent 😄

dry hill
hybrid phoenix
#

Mhm, spent a year doing that before deciding it wasn't for me, but still spent a year doing it with quite some dedication

dry hill
#

Gives you some useful perspective though

hybrid phoenix
#

It was interesting, and I met some great people along the way. It definitely wasn't a good investment financially, but it wasn't bad time spent

hybrid phoenix
#

That'll vary wildly from company to company. I imagine there's some where it's amazing, and others where it's not so great. I'm personally not loving my current place, and am currently looking for opportunities at larger studios to see how I feel about that.

fickle hatch
#

It’s nice to be able to organize everything directly. 15-20 people breaks down into still 2-4 sub-teams and you can still get to know everyone personally, albeit not give them equal attention

#

I don’t mean micromanaging, just mean that you can walk into the office and still get an idea of who is doing what and get up to date feedback yourself beyond just the teams in your immediate vicinity

#

So it still feels like you can realistically meet everyone and you likely end up doing so

hybrid phoenix
#

Don't need to have a forgotten employee for that to happen

fickle hatch
#

That is a critical failure of the working process haha

#

Forgotten employees sometimes do happen

#

But I think it's more of a thing that happens in companies that have long term projects and not videogame "a new project every few years" turnaround

spice dagger
#

The Studio I currently work for is in that 15-20 range. Everyone knows/knows of everyone. Its very chill (until release windows creep up) and friendly, a great place to work.

hybrid phoenix
#

We do not make free to play games, and I will not provide more details about what studio I am currently at

kindred mason
gentle island
#

Anyone here from Canada that have knowledge in job prospect of game and film?

hybrid phoenix
#

There's decent job opportunities for Canada overall. Almost all of them on the east coast, as far as I'm aware. If you're in that area, you might have a decent chance, but overall, this is not a great industry to work in if you're not willing to relocate

gentle island
#

Thanks for the info @hybrid phoenix !

desert fiber
royal aurora
#

I have the opportunity to work as a UE4 games software engineer intern for 3 months for a company that develops networking solutions for games - I'm more inclined to work on their backend tools like their unreal GDK and tools, but would working on an actual title be more valuable? im not really sure what I want to do in this space other than "learn cool stuff" haha

hoary mango
dry hill
#

"learn cool stuff" sounds like an excellent motivation, no? :)

solar eagle
#

maybe not for this channel, but I was wondering: Are there any resources to learn CPP coming from a blueprints background? I mostly fail to properly translate what I see in a blueprint to what I see in the code for that blueprint. Is there anything like this out there?

royal aurora
#

ill just try to have some fun, will prob work out for the best

digital gate
#

@solar eagle spend some time learning the basic syntax.

scenic moon
solar eagle
#

@scenic moon Thank you, exactly what I was looking for! 🥳

cold flower
#

Who knows they my give you an option to help out working on something else.

median snow
#

Hi everyone, not sure if anyone on the chat is interested in directing/writing/story development as a career path...Im a writer/director and happy to share my path/experience.

torpid whale
#

^ yessss please do 😄

fiery marlin
#

Hey

#

Yes now I can chat

#

Ooooooww

vagrant brambleBOT
#

:triangular_flag_on_post: SexyGaymerPankaj#1614 received strike 1. As a result, they were muted for 10 minutes.

velvet crag
#

I'm 31, been programming as a hobby since 2011, with Associates degree, been hobbying in ue4 since 2018. Am I too old to get a job in the industry. I just truly want to know what you all think. No hurt feelings. I'll keeping doing it as a hobby no matter what. Just want to know if trying for a job is a waste of time.

hybrid phoenix
#

Totally not

#

Doesn't matter much if you're 18 or 45

#

If you've got interesting competencies you can get a job in the industry just fine

pastel estuary
#

if there is something you are (becoming) really good at, you will be fine :)

velvet crag
#

Ty, guys. That's very helpful!

desert fiber
#

@velvet crag I am 31. I've been working in games and tech for > 10 years (my entire career). You are no where near old enough to be aged out (nevermind that age discrimination is illegal in hiring candidates. people do it)

#

Also, fwiw, there are some places that really want you to have a bachelors' degree or better, but there are plenty that couldn't care less.

#

Like Luos said ☝️ , if you're good at what you do you're fine. Just don't get discouraged. I am very confident in my skills, I know that almost all the people I've worked with would be happy to work with me again, and even so interviewing sucks ,rejection happens, and it can be hard. Just keep applying to places and when you get rejected, ask them for clear feedback.

#

It's hardest to find gigs when starting out. The less of a known quantity you are to a potential employer, the greater risk they are taking on by bringing you on. Previous employment history, shipping projects however big or small, and in general just building up your portfolio and a history of completed projects is great as it gives confidence to employers that you're able to perform the duties that you're signing up for.

velvet crag
# desert fiber <@!211873943416471552> I am 31. I've been working in games and tech for > 10 yea...

You are no where near old enough to be aged out

Also, fwiw, there are some places that really want you to have a bachelors' degree or better

Well, I may just finish up my degree, then. Will I be too old in 2-3 years?

Otherwise, thank you. That's very helpful. My biggest downfall is my lack of broad creativity. I generally get hyper focused on mechanics without any real way to apply them. That was the major downfall of my megajam entry.

desert fiber
# velvet crag >> You are no where near old enough to be aged out >>Also, fwiw, there are some...

No. You're not going to be too old. Theoretically, you're never too old. Yeah, maybe if you're in your 50s or even later 40s some places will start to think otherwise, but honestly (besides being illegal and thus generally verboten) you can theoretically always find work. It sounds like you are particularly worried about the age point and I'll just say that's not an issue you're likely to even start facing for a long time, and even when you may begin to run into some of that it's not as if every single door is going to close in your face.

#

Regarding your second point, I suggest this to pretty much everyone who's trying to build up experience to make the jump into the professional world:

Go find other people to work with and make stuff with them. It doesn't need to be a longstanding thing, and the projects don't need to be big (they probably should be as small as possible to start out honestly). If you find other people to work with you are much more likely to make stuff that feels substantial, and you're going to have a much better time doing it in my opinion. It's extremely difficult to make stuff even with a team, much less alone.

#

If you are more of a technician and don't feel like you have the creativity to create systems yourself, that's perfectly fine. Understanding our own relative weaknesses and strengths is a strength in and of itself.

Joining some game jams is a great place to start building things, building skills, and meeting collaborators. There are definitely oodles of people who would be happy to have a programmer to make their ideas come to life.

sturdy ivy
#

Thought this would be the best place to ask, anyone here set up their studio as a business yet?

turbid berry
#

i was thinking to make my own game studio or company instead of job, because i need permanent lifetime solution ( so people don't afraid to change their jobs or afraid of interview after 2-3 years )

sturdy ivy
#

what legal structure did you use? was it limited company?

woeful iron
#

that very much depends on what country you're in

sturdy ivy
#

UK

#

Wales to narrow it down

turbid berry
#

in which country there is more jobs opportunities for unreal game developers?

sturdy ivy
#

I thought so, Like I know how to run a shop style business, you buy the product sell it tax the revenue, but content creation? bit vaguer

craggy nacelle
#

it's mostly a question of taxation, possible liabilities, and hiring

#

I don't know the specific laws of your jurisdiction, but in general most areas have options where you yourself are sort of liable for the business ("sole proprietorship") and it's taxed sort of as your personal income, and an option where it's a separate business entity where you have no liabilities to it, and it's taxed as a business

turbid berry
#

is new york good

sturdy ivy
sturdy ivy
# turbid berry is new york good

everywhere is pretty equal my guy, check developers websites, rockstar, bungie etc see if they're hiring, put out your own stuff etc etc

#

fair dos

turbid berry
#

and what they ask in interview for junior unreal developer? can you guide what kind of skills should i have

#

not at senior level, but just for intermediate level

#

also can you explain what is the salary of starter unreal game developer in new york etc

woeful iron
#

my man you can google this kind of stuff

#

and it really depends on a lot

#

also starter/junior is not intermediate

#

just to be clear

turbid berry
#

also what is the basic requirements for getting hired

#

like qualification, age etc

woeful iron
#

depends on the job

#

all jobs will list their own requirements

#

as for age, as long as you're an adult it's irrelevant

turbid berry
#

great

#

does they also require communication skills or confident level

#

also nowdays, does they hiring remote work or work from their office

woeful iron
#

communication skills are very important in most jobs since you work in a team

#

and remote/office again depends on the job

#

though because of current events remote has become an option more often recently

turbid berry
#

i need to travel from my country to UK for getting unreal job, so it will cost more, that's why i ask these questions

flat gazelle
#

New York isn't in the UK. 😉

turbid berry
#

i mean US

woeful iron
#

maybe start looking for vacancies before deciding where to move

#

there's game studios all over the world my man

gloomy kiln
#

old york is in the UK though 😅

flat gazelle
#

Get good at what you do, then you'll find a way into a studio. Either by moving or getting relocated.

#

It sounds like you are just starting so don't get ahead of yourself.

turbid berry
#

what if i go to new country and it create issue for getting job for because of nationality or language etc

flat gazelle
#

You can't

#

You need a job offer to get visas for most countries either way.

woeful iron
#

well depends where you are and where you want to work

#

within the EU you can go pretty much full yolo for example

turbid berry
#

i want to work in good country where i earn more without any issues

flat gazelle
#

In theory.

turbid berry
#

entire life as unreal developer

woeful iron
#

all your questions here are very confusing though

#

first you're talking about starting a company

flat gazelle
#

I moved within the EU, and getting a bankaccount, apartment and so on would have been real difficult without the help of my employer.

woeful iron
#

then looking for a job as junior

#

then as intermediate

#

yeah it's always handy when the employer can help out

flat gazelle
#

Yeah, get good at your chosen profession first, then worry about where to work.

turbid berry
#

@woeful iron yes, this is a kind of complex decision, i need to open my own company or getting job at good country, which option is best

woeful iron
#

no one can make that decision for you

flat gazelle
#

Have you shipped any games?

woeful iron
#

but having your own company and being profitable is not easy

#

especially in the case if you wouldn't have a lot of experience

turbid berry
#

@flat gazelle yes i shipped my game to steam as well

flat gazelle
#

Did it go well?

#

Did it make enough money for you to live of?

#

Are you good enough to be hired for a role higher than junior?

turbid berry
#

it was my first game, TBH, it have 8-9 reviews, for example i opened my company, what about investment on company, because at starting point i don't have much budget

#

how i can hire peoples and give them salaries at starting point for example

woeful iron
#

these are all very generic hard to answer if you don't have a specific vision

turbid berry
#

basic question : is it good to make own company or doing job?

#

to live better

woeful iron
#

it depends on so much though

turbid berry
#

or earn better without any future problems

flat gazelle
#

They are two different things.

#

One is running a studio and one is making games.

woeful iron
#

if you are extremely lucky or visionary probably a company is better, but if you're looking for long term stability getting a job is better

#

but this requires 2 very different mentalities

#

most companies go under within a year

turbid berry
#

what exact mean by under go

woeful iron
#

go bankrupt

#

If you really don't know what you want I'd say get a job somewhere else and do your own thing in your free time, if that goes well you can make that full time

turbid berry
#

sure thanks

woeful iron
#

not to be offensive, but from the sounds of it you're not very experienced in the field, and then it's probably better to play it safe, see if you can qualify for this kind of job first before going full yolo

#

Like an hour ago you were asking about creating your own engine, not sure how to become a game developer, seemingly not having experience with unreal or unity, I don't think you're at the point of making a decision like this yet

warm fiber
#

@turbid berry I would say , its better to work on few projects , gain some experience and vision , then you will be confident enough to decide whether to make a company or go for a job

turbid berry
#

which is best and reliable, job or starting own company ( according to earn more )

woeful iron
#

again there is no straight up answer for this, it depends on so much factors

steady pewter
#

Marrying rich

hybrid phoenix
#

Based on the questions you're asking, get a job.

#

And not one in game development.

#

Not as a dick comment ^

#

But if your aim is to have a stable job and make good money

#

Gamedev is really the wrong door to be knocking on

woeful iron
#

true

#

game developers are notoriously underpaid compared to "normal" software developers

#

switched from game dev to B2B software developer and had an almost 50% increase in pay

flat gazelle
#

Meh, that depends heavily on where you are.

#

I'm an artist but because of the city I'm in I outearn my brother who is a ceo with 20+ employees.

#

According to the most recent stats I can find over the city I'm in the top 5-10% of salaries in the country.

steady pewter
#

That true for everything, so not sure how worthy to mention is. Go be an artist in Kamchatka for example.

flat gazelle
#

Exactly. That's why it's so odd to see the Gamedev pays poorly argument pop up over and over again.

gloomy kiln
#

is there a reason for such a large disparity in pay for the same roles in different cities?

flat gazelle
#

It's much more expensive to live in this city.

#

My brother lives near where I grew up. My father sold the large house he built in the 70s for a bit more than the downpayment for my aparment was.

gloomy kiln
#

ahh I see, that makes sense

hybrid phoenix
flat gazelle
#

Oh for sure

#

If you want money, you work with money.

hybrid phoenix
#

The question that sparked this convo was this

which is best and reliable, job or starting own company ( according to earn more )

#

So hence the "wrong door" response

#

Odds are if you're in a physical gamedev office

#

And you walk across the street to a software company

#

Someone doing almost the exact same job will be making significantly more than you

#

And often times with better workplace conditions

flat gazelle
#

If someone outside of games do what I do, i'd be very surprised 😛

#

But I know what you are going for

hybrid phoenix
#

But there's exceptions, and if you love what you do it doesn't matter all that much

#

Heh yeah

#

My job doesn't exactly exist outside of gamedev either

#

But then I'm in one of the better paying niches in game dev as well 😛

#

Tech Art

#

Also looking into Lighting Art which is less well-paid (I think) but still a good niche and more artistically enjoyable

shut tree
#

also Carmack has less networth than a lot of ppl just streaming games on twitch

craggy nacelle
#

more like a tiny fraction of all people streaming games on twitch lol

shut tree
#

there are a lot of twitch streamers and a lot of gamedevs

#

both groups have their largest part not making any money at all

craggy nacelle
#

Maybe true but I think you're more likely to have a livable wage as a game developer than as a twitch streamer

#

At least if we count people employed by game companies... If we take "literally everyone who develops games" then it might not be so

shut tree
#

starting from where? if u have 0 skill in both id say go with streaming

flat gazelle
#

Nooo

craggy nacelle
#

Eeh, I've done streaming and it ain't so easy

#

I have a friend who's partnered and he's not making enough money from it to live either and he's doing things really professionally too

shut tree
#

i can point ppl in the chat 😛

#

pretty good devs too

craggy nacelle
#

What do they stream?

shut tree
#

streaming gamedev is not goin to make any1 rich 😛

flat gazelle
#

There are 27k twitchpartners. Lets be generous and say half make a living from it. That's less people than ubisoft employs

craggy nacelle
#

Yeah it's a pretty hard proposition. Let's say you spend five years learning gamedev from zero, I'd say you'd end up in a much better position at getting employed than if you spent five years streaming

rigid fox
flat gazelle
#

It also ignores the several million streamers who make no money

shut tree
#

kinda depends, streaming is more of a marketing thing

craggy nacelle
#

it's more than just marketing

rigid fox
#

ill take a guarranteed wage from ubisoft anyday over streaming

rigid fox
#

most streamers i see are neither

craggy nacelle
#

Yeah

shut tree
#

well if u start from 0 at Ubi u wont do any gamedev

rigid fox
#

better than nothing

shut tree
#

both options requre diff skills and wil give u diff skills

craggy nacelle
#

Yeah, with streaming you gotta be on for a full workday pretty much every day if you wanted to grow quickly, plus you need to somehow have time to market your stream, hang out in other streamers' chats to network, then you gotta learn audio tech, video tech, etc.

#

and you also have to be able to pick up games that are popular but aren't too popular so you don't get lost in the noise

#

and even if you do all that you still need to get lucky to get noticed

supple timber
#

what would be considered an ok monthly wage for a game programmer ? ( no hard experience on the past no degrees)

flat gazelle
#

About 4 pieces of string

#

Depending of course on the length of the first string.

craggy nacelle
supple timber
#

i live in greece

craggy nacelle
#

I'd look up salaries in similar positions in greece, I'd imagine there would be some websites that have that kind of information... Those are not necessarily correct, but they should at least give you an idea

supple timber
#

would like 900€/mo be a good wage?

craggy nacelle
#

my rent where I live is like 400 eur a month so it wouldn't work for me :D

steady pewter
#

Depends on the expenses ofc

#

Greece tho... kinda manageable, if you don't pay rent say.

#

barely

green oyster
supple timber
#

Rent : 300€
elec: 80-100€
water: 20-30€
food: 80-100€
internet : 60€
about 600€ for the absolute basics

#

and thats before taxes

supple timber
steady pewter
#

300 for rent sounds cheap

supple timber
#

it would be for a 40sq m house

steady pewter
#

Well, everyone should compute it for himself.

#

Then there are variety of factors popping in and out.

#

Like you may need to do something else than exist.

shut tree
#

60 for internet with those other prices....

steady pewter
#

It is life critical

shut tree
#

that somekind of darkfiber?

supple timber
#

so 600€ without going out with friends

#

no clothes, no transporation no saving up for anything

shut tree
#

yea but its like 50 here on 1500 rent 😛

steady pewter
#

My net is like 10/month for about 150 mbps which is good enough for me.

supple timber
#

so 900€/mo mixxed

shut tree
#

prolly cheaper if u go lower band

supple timber
#

about 700€ after taxes

shut tree
#

but internet compared to rent is way off 😛

supple timber
#

it would be 62.5€ @shut tree

plucky hatch
#

Sounds like very low food costs compared to everything else

tight turret
#

Hi everyone, I am Kasper and I follow the MBO game developer course. Now we have to do an internship after the summer, does anyone know a good website (s) for this? thank you in advance!

digital gate
#

one would hope MBO could have resources for this, but anyway some companies advertise internship programs. Try checking your favorite potential studios career page

#

most anywhere that collects job listings can also show internships

vagrant brambleBOT
#

:triangular_flag_on_post: RussUs#8221 received strike 1. As a result, they were muted for 10 minutes.

placid geyser
placid geyser
placid geyser
placid geyser
placid geyser
placid geyser
tribal loom
#

my laptop can't run UE4; it seems to run blender fine. is there anything i can practice until i can afford a better rig? without ue i can't playtest anything

#

im a programmer by trade btw

prime steeple
#

Hello, I'm a Unity Tool Developper currently learning how to do the same kind of tool in Unreal Engine. I would like to find an experimented Tool programmer in Unreal Engine and pay him to teach me some Unreal Tool programming (Ways to create custom EditorWindow, ways to save/Load data from editor, etc). Where can I found this kind of service ? Thanks!

hybrid phoenix
tribal loom
hybrid phoenix
#

Compiling shaders always takes a century

#

First boot especially

#

Just sit through it

#

And see how it actually runs once it's all done and ready to go

tribal loom
#

well i actually did try lol. just general navigation is a nightmare. completely throws off any intent to work

vagrant brambleBOT
#

:triangular_flag_on_post: CUKI#8156 received strike 2. As a result, they were muted for 1 hour.

spice dagger
#

Sure, as long as you work on the Skills required to get that job.

#

If you want to get a programming job, learn how to write code.

#

If you want to become a level designer, learn how to build and design levels.

digital gate
#

I finished high school but no further

#

Worked out for me.

#

Colleagues involved with my hiring process had no idea, they were a lil floored when I told them

wary idol
#

yeah same here
Me not having a degree and just high school level education (and nothing higher) was a never a problem so far

digital gate
#

I struggled with it, but only in the gig space where people really seem to want one

wary idol
#

It's funny because a degree more often than not doesn't equal knowledge

digital gate
#

I once watched a man tank like > $20k because he thought it does and wouldn't listen to me

#

And I write C++. The right spot will open up when your skills get there.

wary idol
fickle hatch
#

A degree helped me once so far - with immigration

gentle stone
#

Degrees are generally useful, but not necessarily from the perspective that you need it to be better in a field than someone who doesn't have one

shadow kelp
#

A degree is pretty essential though as soon as you want to get a work visa somewhere.

flat gazelle
#

Until you have a lot of experience. Then ways around it opens up.

wary idol
#

I'm mainly talking about the illusion that a degree somehow equals greater knowledge compared to someone who doesn't have it

The visa example sounds like one of there rare cases when it's useful to have it

tacit siren
#

some people acquire a degree of... technical discipline while working towards a degree

#

that part is useful

#

their knowledge out of the uni rarely is

dry hill
shadow kelp
#

For junior programming roles...a degree usually indicates the candidate will have a solid understanding of compsci fundamentals, data structures, algorithms etc, that would otherwise be lacking.

#

But I come from a place and time where the financial cost of a degree wasn't particularly onerous.

Plus you can access all those sorts of modules on Coursera for a nominal fee.

#

Not all degrees are the same too. Mine was pretty mickey mouse tbh in terms of what I learnt, but it enabled me to go work abroad.

steady pewter
#

Terms, ideas, words - yes

#

From school to school (incl. university) and from person to a person there can be a mile of difference.

shadow kelp
#

hence the 'usually' 🙂

steady pewter
#

I see, but I wanted to revert that to "not usually", from what I have seen. It is very job specific anyway, so we can't draw harsh lines. I mean there is big discrepancy between the taught material and the practical needs of the job.

shadow kelp
#

true...I find compsci grads generally have a better understanding of what their code is actually doing, than people that have just learnt by doing....if that makes sense.

gloomy kiln
#

it probably depends on the university and course as well, in my one we have opportunities to go to talks from industry people and even have a module with briefs set by companies and the graduates are known in my country for being pretty good.

Although I'm on an animation degree but want to do game vfx (decided it a while into the course at a point where I can work on it) and apart from one module I did on real time graphics am having to teach myself everything. Even with issues I have had at uni I am still glad I went as the structure of having set briefs is good for me to work towards and I've made many good friendships here.

hybrid phoenix
#

Bear in mind this person is asking about high school, guys

#

I'd really not recommend dropping out of high school. Without a high school degree, you're closing a lot of doors for future you, and the truth is that in most cases you're not skilled enough to get a job yet either, so you'd be better off just finishing your high school and developing your skills farther on the side

#

@plucky hatch

#

You don't need a bachelor's degree or anything to make this field work, and if you can get away with not mentioning you don't have a high school degree, I don't think many people will care about that either if you're good at your job

#

But odds are you can't legally be employed because you haven't finished school, your skills likely aren't where they need to be, and if you ever decide you want to do something else with your life you'll first have to go get that darn high school degree in some sort of awful evening school program (which you'll have to pay for yourself), because you won't be allowed to enrol in a high school anymore. And that completely ignores the fact that despite what high school students like to propagate, you do actually learn a lot of basic skills that you'll continue to use for the rest of your life there.

neat ermine
#

Hey guys, I'm just wondering if you can help me with one thing. I'm trying to come up with evaluation task on recruitment to check if potential developer has enough skills to work with us and to handle specific things we need in our project.

What appropriate tasks I could give for someone who will be responsible for making control rig for scorpion-like creatures and their AI behaviour towards player (like attacking him, jumping on his and so on).

And one more question - making control rig for skeletal is work for animator, or could be also for unreal engine programmer?

digital gate
#

@hybrid phoenix broadly agree, but sometimes you just shouldn't press through and earn that diploma with the rest of the class. GEDs are a thing for a reason. Definitely not advocating dropping HS for GameDev, nothing about that risk assessment is favorable.

hybrid phoenix
#

There's definitely cases where dropping out of HS makes a lot of sense (i.e. my partner dropped out of HS and I was wholly in favour of that), but just dropping it so you can go do gamedev... Not a very sensible proposition imo xD

digital gate
#

This channel is highly representative of the success stories. Nobody is lining up to explain how it all went wrong.

hybrid phoenix
#

I can tell you that if I'd given into my whims of quitting high school, my story wouldn't be the 'success' story it is now

dry hill
#

I agree, not finishing high school closes a lot of paths

#

A bachelor you can always opt to do later if you end up needing to, imagine the horror of having to retake high school classes in your 20s or 30s

#

It's a minimum foundation

shut tree
#

dropping HS is hardly an option here and super rare

#

it will like never come up becouse its assumed you finished it

#

you wil enter some special needs program most likely

#

if it does happen here is either cuz of some mega drive or serious issues

#

only time i got asked for the diploma was to enter the next school, but im pretty sure they didnt even check if it was legit

#

pay the fee enter the school

#

i didnt actually went to HS when i got my diploma, had some other stuff goin and i did a states exam

#

no school just the test

#

i did do the 1st 4 year at school, the rest a few evening classes , study and the exams

#

I think i could just do the HS exam again, i think it costs under 100$ and i bet id ace it without any studyin

#

Also you can get into universety here w/o a HS diploma by doin an admission test

#

this is all not recommended tho

#

follow the herd in the back while they walk the minefield

wary idol
#

Pretty sure where I live you are legally required to finish high school

shut tree
#

Hmm im not 100% sure about here, when ur 18 you dont have to go to school

#

i think u can dropout at 18

#

how do they call a prize for when u come in last? .. HS here is also sorta like that

#

they are gunna give you something

#

just sit in the class

#

they gunna give u some paper and a balloon no matter how many pencils u stuff up ur nose

steady pewter
fickle hatch
#

By the way, if we were talking aerospace engineering or something like that, my view on the purpose of a degree would be radically different

#

In gamedev, I agree with the general sentiments presented here above. A degree helps with a work visa, it's a pretty niche use thing

#

But for hard engineering, a degree shows that you have basic mandatory practical experience with physical systems and at least you managed to get through lab work without injuries or anything. Lots of auxiliary hands-on experience that is required and a degree can be a great opportunity to get it. Still remains a dubious thing overall, but for rigorous scientific/engineering work there is usually a sea of difference between a person who did and who did not go through some form of higher education

#

I don't think I could gain experience working with cryogenic fluids on my own time, without access to a university laboratory

mild plume
#

You can take a compressed course at a comunity collage like I did to get two done in one year

gentle pewter
#

math is friend

#

as gamedevs all we're doing is making things move with math

craggy nacelle
#

Yeah gamedev is pretty much the only thing I've really needed math for in terms of my two decade long career in programming so far :P

#

But I never learned about vectors in school, I think we might have touched on matrices very superficially... so it was a bit of a struggle to figure out all that stuff, thankfully I did remember some trigonometry lol

shut tree
#

interpolating and educated guesses

hybrid phoenix
#

It's way easier to learn trig and algebra when you have a reason to learn it anyway

solar eagle
#

Just dropping this here, idk what answer I'm looking for:
I've made a game 75-80% alone, i'd say pretty ambitious jRPG ~ 15-20hrs of gameplay, developed in 1 year while learning UE4 (blueprint only). I'm not a programmer, not a designer, no experience in the industry otherwise. I'm a university lecturer in educational sciences (boring AF). Now here is the question: Provided the game turns out to be decent/pretty good given that it was made by two people in roughly one year and two-three months, would I be able to find any decent job in the industry as a jack of all trades?
Thanks! 🙂

vagrant brambleBOT
#

:triangular_flag_on_post: neigborboy#9479 received strike 1. As a result, they were muted for 10 minutes.

hybrid phoenix
# solar eagle Just dropping this here, idk what answer I'm looking for: I've made a game 75-80...

Tentatively, I'm going to say no. A year of experience is quite little for most specific positions already, it's even moreso for a generalist. On top of that, the amount of generalists being employed is quite low; most places that actually have money to hire people are far more likely to hire a dozen specialists for each specific skill over a set of generalists.

If you actually want to work in games, my advice is to specialise whatever part of gamedev you enjoy most and/or are best at, keep doing stuff in your spare time for a while, and then start looking for work when you've got a bit more experience - but don't quit your old job until you actually know you're getting hired.

round maple
#

@spice pier hey man what about answer

solar eagle
#

@hybrid phoenix thanks, suspected as much. I have 3+ years experience with ue4, it's not the first game I make, I made seven other "mini-games" ~1hr of gameplay. However, I get your point - jobs need specialists, but the problem is that game design/educational segment of a game design - a position I would thrive in, seems to be like wanting to become CEO of a company from the get-go. Maybe it's just my impression, but I almost never saw that position up for grabs on the market so far.
Thanks! for ur answer!

hybrid phoenix
#

Start your own company 😉

solar eagle
#

That's what I'm trying to 🤣 🤦‍♂️ Hard to find ppl w/o serious money though. Been asked 7k USD for an A* algo/Cpp function which I could then use in bps. Ended up learning that crap and implementing it myself in bps in like 2 days so yea... But I'm only one man and there's so much work to do 😐

#

Aaanyway, thanks @hybrid phoenix u've been helpful here as you always were on the graphics channel 😛

hybrid phoenix
#

Money's always the issue

#

If I had a solution to that problem I wouldn't be working for another company either

gentle pewter
#

On the flipside @solar eagle, it shouldn't stop you from sending out applications! The larger the studio, the more specialized the talent they're looking for though, so I'd second what Victor says and find out which area you're best at and most interested in, and focus on developing those skills and a relevant portfolio 🙂

solar eagle
#

@gentle pewter Thanks, can a portofolio be a single "larger" game like the one I've described? 😛 The other mini-games were made in a hurry (even more so than this one) and they would suck by comparison/theme. I've developed the games for projects on various topics, basically gamified/translated into implicit learning various courses. There are things that can't be taught, they need to be "experienced". That's pretty much my area of both expertise and passion 🙂

gentle pewter
#

think of a portfolio as a pitch - it's your sales pitch for potential employers, convincing them that you can do what they need the position they're hiring for to fulfill.

#

that is a holistic thing

#

there's tons of good advice on how to build a portfolio out there though

solar eagle
#

yep, makes sense, thanks! 🙂

gentle pewter
#

one good example is the "Killer portfolio or portfolio killer" talk/series from GDC

solar eagle
gentle pewter
#

In any case, a lot of factors go into hiring decisions, portfolio is a big one, but also more difficult to quantify ones like, how good is your spelling? Do you give too much or too little context information? How well does your presentation anticipate the needs and perspective of potential employers that click through your site? Are you aware of your weaknesses, and how do you relate to them?

#

haha, I can imagine

#

godspeed

solar eagle
#

Yea, so basically, just like any other job on the market out there. Alright, so it's quite as I've anticipated really 🙂 thanks for the info, GL!

gentle pewter
#

Yeah pretty much! Good luck :-)

gloomy kiln
#

as I noticed spelling being mentioned I thought I should ask this. I have dyslexia so sometimes struggle with some spelling, is it worth me mentioning this when I apply for jobs so if any mistakes are spotted there is an explanation for them. I do always spell check my writing but I'm worried mistakes may get through anyways

dry hill
gloomy kiln
#

I do use grammarly but am still worried about some mistakes getting through

craggy nacelle
#

Have a someone go over it before you send it

steady pewter
#

Yeah, double check and send. You are not applying for a public speaker.

gloomy kiln
#

ok so I don't need to declare it?

hybrid phoenix
#

I wouldn't declare something like Dyslexia. It can only work against you. As the 'symptoms' are generally not relevant to the job you'll be doing only to your presentation, I'd recommend you just run your communications by someone for spelling/grammar checks to avoid the issue altogether

steady pewter
#

"It can only work against you" - sue them for not hiring people with such conditions. Profit.

hybrid phoenix
#

I suppose in that way it could work in your favour

#

But in practice, if I tell people I have ADD, no matter how skilled or competent I may appear, it's a "Oh that's a potential red flag" kind of thing

gloomy kiln
#

ahh I see, is there not a lot of support for people with neurodivergencies then?

hybrid phoenix
#

It doesn't matter what it is, if you have some sort of 'tag', that tag will almost always work against you if people see

#

I'm quite sure the industry is largely comprised of neurodivergent people

#

And in practice it really doesn't matter

#

I'm no different than I am based on whether I tell people I have ADD or not

#

But if I tell people that are looking to employ me that I have ADD, it'll likely never be a plus, and it can be considered a negative (because in the end, it's a 'disorder')

#

When I am asked about my weaknesses, I may point out some of the 'issues' that come with having ADD

#

But to go "I have ADD" is a red flag

gloomy kiln
#

I see, so unless you need support probably best not to tell anyone in your opinion?

hybrid phoenix
#

Well

#

If it's not relevant to the conversation you're having

#

Don't tell people

#

If you can get around the issue (like having someone spell-check your communications), and you believe it doesn't impede your ability to function in the job

#

Then there's no reason to raise the topic with the people you're talking to

#

If you're actually concerned that something you struggle with might be an issue

#

Then that's definitely something to bring up and discuss

#

But if it's not a relevant concern, why put a target on your back

steady pewter
#

Aye, you are fine really - don't worry. My ex got diagnosed with the same - dyslexia. Never noticed, tho she never stopped talking and writing stuff.

hybrid phoenix
#

In practice none of this is likely to matter

#

Heck, my ADD symptoms are part of the reason I'm good at my job

#

Quite a few fellow technical artists I know either have ADD or ADHD (if I recall correctly)

steady pewter
#

Hmm 🤔

hybrid phoenix
#

But nevertheless

steady pewter
#

Good to know.

hybrid phoenix
#

If you go into an interview

#

And say stuff along the lines of "Be aware that I have ADD"

#

That can only be interpreted as "Oh, I guess we need to be wary of hiring this person because of this"

#

Dyslexia is very minor, most people are too lazy to communicate properly over text anyway

#

So it'll basically never matter for any position

#

(Unless you're a writer or something, obviously, but that's a very different conversation)

gloomy kiln
#

that's good, I do have dyspraxia as well though meaning my short term memory and my coordination isn't the best which I'm a bit worried about as well but I don't know how much that would affect me in a working environment. At uni it affects me because I can't write very quickly so was given extra time and a pc in exams but not sure if that sort of stuff is as much of an issue when working

hybrid phoenix
#

If you're applying for positions where you believe it could cause an issue, I believe it's your 'duty' to bring it up, so as to not misrepresent yourself, because that'll be awful for everyone involved

#

If you don't believe it to be likely to cause issues, there's no reason your employer needs to know of it for their evaluation of your competencies for the job; if it's not going to impact your ability to do the job, it's none of their business

gloomy kiln
#

ok, thank you

gentle pewter
# gloomy kiln as I noticed spelling being mentioned I thought I should ask this. I have dyslex...

I would not mention it on the application, but have your text checked by someone else to make sure it is as flawless as possible. Think of it like this: employers don't want to hear excuses why something didn't get done to the highest possible standard, they want to see you take proactive steps to make sure it does. Telling them that you have dyslexia in the application, and then not having it spellchecked, doesn't speak to a very results-oriented work ethic

#

It's nonsense of course, like the whole application theater can be in general. It's a game, and the better you can play it, the better your chances

hybrid phoenix
#

^that's a very important note with all of this

#

In a perfect world, none of this would be relevant, you'd just be evaluated on your merits through some magical test and then the right person would be hired

#

Like with my ADD thing; a lot of my 'symptoms' help me in my work, but nevertheless, mentioning the diagnosis is likely only going to be a negative for any evaluation, even if it shouldn't matter at all

#

It's annoying, and causes a lot of fuss for everyone involved, but that's just kinda what it is, because people aren't perfectly analytical machines

gloomy kiln
dry hill
#

I'm quite sure the industry is largely comprised of neurodivergent people
I would wager the same, I'm curious if there's even been any studies on it

wary idol
#

I'm pretty sure I have Dyslexia, I very often misspell things, miss words when reading, etc.. But I never got it checked

I work as a programmer and it was never a problem neither did I ever mention it, and my job is to write stuff so I don't think you should be worried

pastel estuary
#

re: dyslexia, one of my buddies (ShadowRiver, who has 10k+ points on answerhub) also has dyslexia, but never stopped him and his coding endeavors :)

fickle hatch
#

So imagine I have a game that I'm already developing, we already have the workflows and stuff worked out, the entire production process is on the way, you're being hired into the middle of it

#

As a project manager or such, where do I assign you? Usually, there's some lack of already existing established resources - not enough artists, not enough programmers. If you're both an artist and a programmer, that can be very useful - but it seems like a risk to e.g. assign you to JUST doing the artwork

solar eagle
#

@fickle hatch Heh, I know what u mean, but alas, one lacks time, there's only 24 hours in a day - and i know i'm not the only one wanting 48 in one instead - but I'm 35 already, kinda late to get multi-specialized. I already am specialized in a field that became politics and makes me sick 😐

fickle hatch
#

If you do just the art, you probably will be falling behind artist specialists in your performance of how much you get completed per day etc

#

But as a multi specialist, you can bring value by having deep specialty in multiple areas and then bridging between them

#

A person who deeply understands both programming and art can be the bridge between the programming team and the art team, doing tasks for both - tasks that are mostly existing on the boundary between two. But that requires you to be a multi-specialist who can be productive in either one of those tasks. For a multi-specialist, there most often does not exist a job that you would fit into

#

The job position you wanna get hired into does not exist - it needs to be created with your efforts - and for that to happen, you should be able to provide some valuable input to the project in significant ways in more niche specialist positions

#

Hope that sorta makes sense. You can be extremely valuable as a multi-specialist, but such positions are often non-existent (because they are so unique, not a lot of people are multi-specialists, it doesn't make sense to pre-plan the project expecting an art-sound-programming multi-specialist to do the work - better to plan it for the more common specialists) and you need to be ready to work in a more narrow scope until you can get the position you want created/organized

solar eagle
#

@fickle hatch Makes perfect sense! Thanks for the info! 🙂

fickle hatch
#

I've never sought out multi-specialists for my project. We needed someone who would just do the art, just do the extra programming, etc. But because it's a small company, these people were hired for their primary skill, but then some of them showed that they can be specialists in some other fields (audio & game programming stuff for example).

So now you can cover both audio and programming tasks with the 1 person you've hired. They are genuinely good at both. But your working plan assumed 8 hours of attention to game programming each day (including all the human overheads and such, just an idealized 8 hour full attention programmer workday). The person you've originally hired is now - as you've said before - is only 1 person, so he now spends lets say 4 hours on programming and 4 hours on audio.

4 hours each day of audio work can be very very good. And the ability to bridge programming and audio is incredible. But the fact of the matter is - now you have a programmer who isn't able to complete his primary programming tasks. Planning around a multi-specialist is harder, and in the end it seems like you might end up just hiring another programmer again, into that original job position, just because the original plan just needed a programmer.

Could the project have planned for a multi-specialist and all tasks were laid out in such a way that a person could work both on programming and audio easily? Can a project be re-planned on the go? Yeah of course, but that's extra effort and it really doesn't make practical sense to plan for a multi-specialist due to their absolute minority... It is easy to find a niche specialist and that's what people need most of the time

#

That person provided enough value as a multi-specialist to where it was more than reasonable to just re-arrange things around them. But they are now a multi-specialist not because they were hired to be one, but because they were sufficiently good at both tasks to where it was feasible to work around them (based on project size, their role in it etc). If you get at a big AAA company, the flexibility might be less and the threshold of how much of a multi-specialist you need to be can be muuuuch higher

#

Just being able to do e.g. art and programming isn't enough, you might need to have intricate understanding of the entire realtime rendering pipeline and the asset pipeline or something, as well as experience making art of all the appropriate kinds. Just being able to do art and programming makes you into a guy who can't keep up with either of the tasks as well as two specialists would

pulsar badger
#

Hey all, I’m really looking for some advice on getting a job/contracts on being a game designer. I’ve worked in IT for about 5 years and in games for around 1 1/2 - 2. Idk how to make a portfolio for game design, how to apply, where to look... I’m kinda lost at the moment. Would just love some advice.

pastel estuary
#

you can start by checking out the first few links pinned in this channel, after that im sure some kind folks can answer some other questions :)

cunning basin
#

Hey there, I want to ask a question. I m looking a new position as Game Programmer at any AAA studio. But they just reject me that I haven't experience in AAA studio. So I believe that question already asked here but Is there any advice for this situation. I have almost 5 years experience. I did my own VR projects and I m currently working at a Mobile Game Company as C++ Dev.

#

the big problem is that there 's no any AAA company in my country but there are many Mobile Game Company which is not my passion. My applications are generally for abroad.

digital gate
#

The more impressive your portfolio/GitHub/art station the better your chances are. Also helps if you know someone at the studio you apply at

#

I didn't know anybody but was making really advanced changes in engine code and then PRing them and I keep getting recruiters on that basis to this day

fickle hatch
#

Hiring someone from another country is a little troublesome even within the limits of EU, but much more so globally

#

To be hired to another country, you need to be really outstanding and stand out from the others enough that it'd be a worthwhile investment of effort to bring you over to another country

rigid rampart
woeful prairie
#

Simple answer to working for a AAA big boy corporation game studio

#

move to California, start trying to make contacts in the game industry there, hype up yourself, your skills, your portfolio and your online prescence

#

or perhaps become such a niche / master coder that one of those big companies finds you very valuable, if advanced coding is your passion / skillset

#

otherwise making indie / self published titles and perhaps marketplace assets or training / tutorials / working for mobile games etc are your options

proven perch
#

hey there
well, I'm a character designer who wants to go freelance, but I have no idea how much to charge Can someone help me please?

raw hemlock
#

Hey I'm really interested in starting as a game developer. I'm wondering here the best place is to start learning unreal and if anyone can recommend any cheap/free courses to get me started before I enroll in a college or something. Also some advice on what part o game development I should get started in would really help. I want this to be my future since I have a passion for video games and I want to bring my own ideas into the world.

spice dagger
#

I hear Udemy has good courses.

#

Are you more interested in Programming or Art?

#

"Game Developer" is extremely broad, its hard to recommend a starting point without knowing more about what particular discipline your looking to get into.

#

If your not sure, just follow some tutorials on how to make something on Youtube and experiment, find out where your passion lies.

#

Once your sure you know exactly what part of Game Development you want to do, you can focus on that.

raw hemlock
# spice dagger I hear Udemy has good courses.

I already have an idea of what I want to do. I want to make the game mechanics and actual gameplay if that's what you meant. And for the courses I was wondering if there was a specific one That stands out or someone can reassure me that I'm getting my moneys worth

visual owl
#

Hey guys, I have a pretty important question for you. I know it not related to unreal engine career specifically but it has something to do with it.

I am currently working as a web developer (contractor) from a third world country for a company in US. Well it does not really bother me ATM because I feel like I am getting enough payed for my knowledge its ~12$/hour and (no university degree sadly, due to specifics of life at my 20s).

But I work in web development ~6 years now and It actually getting boring, annoying and frustrating. So I wanted to change my domain completely. From quite some time I was learning a lot of things starting from ZBrush (sculpting, polypainting, layers, subtools etc etc), Blender (unwrapping, texturing, skeleton placing, skinning, rigging), UE4 (C++ [networking, oop, etc etc]) video editing, drawing. Because from even before I got to front-end I always wanted to make games.

Now back to my question. I have money reserves to be self-sustain for ~2 years. If I will work daily on my improvement in sculpting, rigging animation etc. better c++ knowledge and UE4 framework, I will work on my accent, a more pleasant voice tone, working 10-12 hours per day without weekends.

Can I make ~2500$/month or more by doing all of this things:

  1. creating small games in UE4 (close to realistic graphics) for 1$ putting them on itch.io
  2. documenting the whole process in an entertaining way with good edited videos for youtube ads/views
  3. Maybe patreon subscriptions

My new contract should be renewed for another 6 months, and I have like one two days on the decision to make. And if nothing works out I will be without the money I made and with 2 years of 0 income. I just want to make a well thought decision. I asked my relatives, I thought for myself and now I want to see what discords experts has to say:)

urban stump
#

It's possible, it's just exceedingly hard. The audience for watching someone create games isn't very large unless it's very highly edited content, it's just too slow paced.

#

You would be spending more time editing the videos and trying to make it entertaining than actually getting work done, so your video output would be slow.

visual owl
#

I know that it will be extremely hard, challenge is not the problem in itself. My most fear is if I will start creating like AAA+ quality wise (but short, with not too many content) games and it will not reach the majority of the audience thus stuck in the niche, unknown youtube content. For example there is a youtube FatDino who made a couple of "viral" game dev videos, but I am SURE like 100% sure that given a full time investment in creating something I can achieve a better result from the game itself to the edit of the video. What are the odds that a highly edited videos, interesting 1$ games will be self-spread from people to people without my implication like "bro check this out what this dude created" without me to force the ads into peoples throats

urban stump
#

Probably about the same odds as winning the lottery

flat gazelle
#

Are you able to produce AAA content? Have you worked in AAA?

urban stump
#

You won't be capable of making daily videos to sustain the money you want without ads either way, you would basically survive on sponsorships and ad spots. Ad revenue wouldn't even come close.

visual owl
#

Damn this decision is getting even harder

urban stump
#

If your audience watches the ad (no skipping or ad blocking) you would probably make on average around $5 every 1,000 views. There is no possible way you'll make 500,000 views/month when you first start.

#

And that's not accounting for taxes or expenses

flat gazelle
#

From a AAA persepective, FatDino resides somewhere between satire and light comedy. It's not exactly very relevant to how large games are made.

visual owl
#

@flat gazelle I did not work in game production AAA, I did not produce ANY AAA work (model), yet I was bought and followed 4+ tutorials that I payed ~ 200$ for character creation, and by the progress I made JUST in free time (1-2h a day, and all weekends) I feel that spending the whole day can help me achieve close to AAA quality models, as for rigging, I think some shortcuts with auto riggers will do, creating my own animations... well 0 experience here, but mixamo will for for beginning and later I can film myself and track the animations over the 2d video.

flat gazelle
#

Yeah, No

urban stump
#

4 tutorials and 1-2 hours a day isn't... going to cut it

visual owl
#

As for programming I can create mostly anything, given time, UI, gameplay programming, utility libraries, some more complex stuff, and even networking, RPC, udp, autosave to DB etc...

flat gazelle
#

I watched a DIY tutorial on making a sturdy table, so now I will teach people to build skyscrapers.

visual owl
#

I just feel i can do it, but I am afraid to really commit to all of this because i have a decent work

#

But I am not gonna teach

#

Of course I will not

#

I dont have expertise for that and certification to do it

#

My scope: Entertaining devlogs about creating games from start to finish including all the assets, programming, art etc.

#

and the game itself for a cheap price just symbolic

#

So basically the end result is the devlog video itself that is the most valuable thing there

flat gazelle
#

"I feel that spending the whole day can help me achieve close to AAA quality models" tells me you are waaaaaaay to inexperienced. But you do whatever makes you happy 🙂

visual owl
#

@urban stump I know 1-2h a day was too small time, and weekends, but even then i managed to really see some progress, like pretty good progress, and i learned seriously ~one year

urban stump
#

I don't even bother turning on my computer for 1-2 hours, it's nothing.

flat gazelle
#

Did anyone read the Twitter thread last week where someone asked the general public how long it takes to take a AAA character from idea to final product?

#

People started "exaggerating" and saying a few months lol! They were quite shocked when they learned it's so much longer.

visual owl
#

There is a whole pipeline I need to learn

urban stump
#

If you need to head off what I'm going to say before I type a single letter with excuses, maybe you already know it's not ready.

visual owl
#

Retopo unwrap texture

#

Ok sorry for bothering you guys

#

Have a nice day...

urban stump
#

Just keep working on it, but right now this isn't what you want to quit your job and fully commit your life to. You need more time to learn all this.

visual owl
#

@urban stump I have this one day to decide. So I've decided to fully commit to my dream. Despite anyone's opinion I will trust my intuition on this and I am quitting my job today (not extending contract). I will work 12-14 hours a day to make my dream of job independence come true. If I will not succeed in 1-2 years from now when then I will quit CG forever and after this 2 years when I will be 30 years old & will dedicate my life just on simple job as a web developer for the rest of my life. If I have to be a looser for the rest of my life, then let it be.

hybrid phoenix
#

It seems to me that you're quite set on doing what you've decided on, but nevertheless I really want to reiterate:
With what you're setting out to do, the odds are massively stacked against you. I consider it extremely unlikely that you will reach the goal of making $2500/month, or even half that.
Based on the questions you're asking and the experience you've indicated, I don't believe you'll have the skills to produce quality content that people will be waiting to consume. Even if you did have that, the odds would still be against you, because there's plenty of incredible influencers and game-devs that are doing amazing things yet comepletely fail financially because they just can't get the attention they need on their work.

#

My recommendation for these sorts of situations is always to continue doing this as a hobby, next to your day job, until you start making enough money that you don't massively bleed your savings on a monthly basis. Doesn't necessarily have to be break-even, really, but some indicator that you are in fact able to make a decent amount of money the way you hope to make money.

torpid whale
#

I would say go for a salaried position in Europe, more reliable and possible! Best of luck dude, I did the same thing and now we here. ✊

digital gate
digital gate
# visual owl <@!227342934016524288> I have this one day to decide. So I've decided to fully c...

Pick one or two to be good or decent at. Find partners to cover the rest. Successful one man indies are almost unheard of.

[Programming, Level Design, Sound Design, UI/2D art, 3D hard surface, 3D organics, Animation, Video Editing, PR/Public Face]

Lower your expectations, itch at $1 isn't going to increase your exposure (you won't make it up in volume). Try to court Humble or other smaller publishers instead. You have to be careful about what you stream if the primary source of income will be the games and not Patreon.

Okay, so, 14 productive hours a day (unlikely) and you get lucky finding learning resources. Maybe you'll be good at your one discipline in 9-12 months. Then you can start building a portfolio and a reputation.

#

Also I did (essentially) what you seem to want to do. Don't even try to get going on #hire-a-freelancer or #salary-jobs / #freelance-jobs until you can ship jam games with people on-time and in-theme. You'll need a body of work to get anybody's interest.

torpid whale
hybrid phoenix
#

I'm not a fan of that premise, personally. If your dream is reasonably achievable with what you have available to you, go for it. If your dream involves burning your life's savings to do something that has a small chance of getting you a return on investment... There might be a better course of action

digital gate
#

better courses of action; easier courses of action - even when directly chasing the dream.

steel creek
remote saffron
# visual owl <@!227342934016524288> I have this one day to decide. So I've decided to fully c...

you could actually just
1.) keep your job/reduce hours and learn game dev stuff next to it, make small projects
2.) in a few years depending on your skills, you could leave your web dev job to actually work in games and have the knowledge and experience you will need to do your original idea
3.) in like 5-10 years, you can reconsider your dream stuff, when hopefully are in a better position to judge what can and can't work, but even in that case, it would be probably better to keep having a job while starting to do your own stuff on the side

#

also if I don't succeed with my dreams in 2 years I will just quit CG forever sounds like a pretty insane approach to me, if your dedication ends in 2 years I wouldn't even give it a try

visual owl
#

Holy

#

You guys had a whole discussion about that

#

The problem that I have, I don't have that much time really)

#

But nvm)

remote saffron
#

I will work 12-14 hours a day sounds like a tons of time

visual owl
#

I am a free man now, so today ill just relax, tomorrow.. ill start doing something

remote saffron
#

also in my experience 8 hours paid job + 4 hours own project is more likely than 12 hours own project, but that might be subjective

visual owl
#

I want to puke from the stupid tasks already

#

Its draining all my energy

digital gate
#

If you have a really low amount of time, for reasons we shouldn't discuss here, maybe it does make sense to fully invest in games

visual owl
#

Nvm, tomorrow no more tasks lol

remote saffron
#

you should transition to something reasonable then

visual owl
#

Ok guys, have a nice day and thanks for everything

digital gate
#

but it doesn't work as a long term strat and I think you will struggle to reach that financial goal

visual owl
#

You will not see me here soon. Just opened discord to see the heck is going on

digital gate
#

wrong channel - also I hope your UI isn't directly taken from the IP. Many lives have been (and continue to be) ruined by infringing IP and getting bonked by corporate lawyers. Think it won't be bad? Look at the guy who went up against Chevron

edit: post removed, leaving mine up for EnzoX's benefit

pastel estuary
#

@plucky hatch try the job board section, and please read channel descriptions before posting stuff. thanks.

fickle hatch
# digital gate Pick one or two to be good or decent at. Find partners to cover the rest. Succes...

This is so true. The path of a polymath/multispecialist always starts with an in-depth understanding of one-two subjects always. Not a surface level understanding of many subjects.

You need to be on solid ground and you need practical working experience to do the advanced self-reflection and cross-specialty reflection. A multispecialist works with a single combined knowledge he has that covers many industries - not with many irrelevant branches. There is always an immense overhead tied to switching your attention from specialty A to specialty B - being able to bridge between different specialties and working with multiple specialties in-depth as if it was one set of knowledge is where the core benefit of multispecialist comes from, IMO.

To grow a large tree with strong branches, you gotta have a strong sturdy stem.

west surge
#

Rather serious topic but as I'm 32 now, been a 3D artist for 10 years I wonder what life might be like after being a 3D artist, I don't know if there will be work for me or even if I can keep up in another 10 years, let alone till retirement. Does anybody know of people who have left the 3D art world and moved on to anything successfully? I often get worried being 40 and all of a sudden having no career.

#

I'm certainly not going to be able to retire at 40 or 50 with the wage.

green oyster
#

I don't think that can ever happen. I've had coworkers in their 50s who did 3D art for 20 years, started from hand painting, manual unwrapping, vertex by vertex modeling, etc. We were doing AAA assets..they could adapt, so....as long as you keep up with the tools there's nothing to worry about.

#

Gaming industry is bigger than film and it will keep getting bigger, there's always a place for 3D artists

west surge
#

@green oyster I must just be worrying a lot. I have done well hearing back from other companies and universities about job roles, even got a superb job last year but I think I suffer from mad impostor syndrome.

steady pewter
#

"mad impostor syndrome" - unclear.

#

There are many people who continue doing art for decades later. Up to you, imho.

west surge
#

I just mean impostor syndrome, like I don't feel good enough half the time.

I feel ill be doing it for a long time unless I find other work I like that pays better, its nice to see others feel the industry will be fine, or that people do continue in it.

steady pewter
#

Are you burned out?

#

Or you started with that attitude? I mean, majority of people don't really like what they do, and another big part, need to take a break from time to time.

west surge
#

I worked in arch vis for 9 years thinking that was the best I would get. Really hated the place but never thought I could move on, then last year I left and actually found out I was more valuable than I thought. So I do like what I do a lot, but I am now also new to the UE4 game world. So I know I have skills but I'm in a new pond.

#

Also, sadly I did really well at university (special effects) I was one of few people who could 3D model well but 3D artist roles in the UK are often worse paid than Compositors and other roles so I've been a bit tainted by having high expectations and then finding I'm not worth that much. Lots of reasons really but I think after years of working for a company/industry I didn't like I have been jaded, things are better now though, very happy but the old worries still come up

steady pewter
#

If you are doing a change now, it is normal to feel anxious. You need to give it some time. I can recommend you find a community around your new situation.

west surge
#

Good call, thanks for the point of view.

hybrid phoenix
#

I also feel somewhat obliged to point out that the UK is an incredibly awful place to be in terms of salary/cost-of-living ratio. Even being paid well above-average in the UK, you'll never really feel like you're doing very well financially unless you're somewhere in the absolute middle of nowhere

#

If you want to remain within the industry, you'll find a lot of interesting doors opening themselves to you if you're willing to relocate

west surge
#

Out of the UK or within?

TBH the company I currently work for is completely remote work, I want it to succeed so I can move down towards Leamington Spa, find a more rural area and if need be there is other work around there... no chance I'd work in London, I've seen jobs going for 25k there, its a disgrace.

#

I feel bad saying it but I am lucky to make 28k as a 3D artist here, 24k is the average and that's below the national average, wage disparity is bad here yet a developer will make 35k easy.

hybrid phoenix
#

Out of the UK

#

If you're up to speed with what the industry's doing and you're ambitious enough to properly develop a career, you can probably end up making twice what you make now (if you progress to senior/lead positions eventually) if you're willing to relocate to some other place in Europe

west surge
#

I did have interest from a great product vis place but its all in Romania and the "cheaper" countries, TBH I was a fool not to go to Sweden or Finland earlier (pre family) or Japan. However I am the sole 3D artist at this current company and I do more than just assets, going towards a tech artist and if things grow I will hopefully manage some artists (I did so at my last job)

hybrid phoenix
#

How long have you been at this job?

west surge
#

9 years in arch vis but I was always doing my own 3D work outside as its a terribly under skilled industry IMO, and now in VR laboratory stuff.

hybrid phoenix
#

I meant your current position specifically 😬

west surge
#

Like 6 months haha

#

But I was head hunted for a tech artist role a few years ago and had another offer at another company recently, so I am learning that I am "valued" but not deluding myself.

hybrid phoenix
#

If you're qualified for tech-art you're massively underpaid

#

Tech-art is a niche and massively in-demand

west surge
#

But its rather varied right? Like understanding materials really well or can you cover most aspects well enough? Like I'm equally okay at a few things in UE4 and animation outside of modelling/texturing.

wary idol
#

Average salary for a ue4 tech artists is around 70k if you are experienced

#

Regular 3d artist with ue4 experience would probably be around 50 ish

#

again it all depends on experience, I'm just stating the averages

west surge
#

Thats London though right? Or are you talking USD? Because every 3D artist I've known who isn't a director is on 35 to 40k max.

wary idol
#

USD

#

not sure about london specifically, just saying the averages in general

west surge
#

America seems to have much better pay, not sure about living costs.

wary idol
#

28k is heavily underpaid

west surge
#

Bear in mind GBP is worth 1.4 USD

#

And we have presumably some cheaper living costs depending on location.

wary idol
#

ah yeah I'm messing up the currencies 🤦‍♀️

west surge
#

For instance my mortgage is 580 USD

wary idol
#

ok whatever I'm saying is in USD 😆

west surge
#

Cool, i hearnits paid very well there, the UK not so much, unless you're a dev.

hybrid phoenix
#

My estimates are from a perspective of someone who lives in Europe and has lived and worked in the UK

#

70k is definitely more than the average tech-artist will make in Europe

#

But as a mid-level tech artist you should be able to go above 30k easily, I'd think 35k would be do-able. Potentially even more if you're a good candidate; tech-art's a very broad field, so there isn't really blanket rules

flat gazelle
#

Aaaand this is why using numbers when discussing salary is pointless

#

It's not even consistent within a country.

hybrid phoenix
#

Again though, numbers aside, in almost all cases as far as I've seen, the salary-to-cost-of-living ratios for the UK are pretty awful

west surge
#

True, I think if I hit 30k then thats dandy, I don't expect / want to be in a big senior position with all the stress.

wary idol
#

Numbers also heavily depends on experience

hybrid phoenix
#

And luck and bargaining position

shut tree
#

also ability to sell urself well

hybrid phoenix
#

And a dozen other things

west surge
#

@hybrid phoenix you're right, I had friends who went to London after Uni, worked at DNeg and 4 of them were paying 2k a month to rent a small house

shut tree
#

or you have something they really need

flat gazelle
#

Also not consistent. We do it differently so there is no barganing

hybrid phoenix
shut tree
#

bargaining position is a better term mayB 😛

wary idol
#

The numbers I was stating are from my experience while working for US teams (I'm from EU), I'm a programmer but the numbers I mentioned are just the ones I heard flying around

west surge
#

@wary idol programmer, you're always going to be paid well.

flat gazelle
#

The only important picture:P

unknown.png
shut tree
#

a lot of companies will have a ceil

hybrid phoenix
#

That pic's neat because it shows the ratios

flat gazelle
#

According to that salary survey, VFX is the only artist role that outearns programmers so I will use that as gospel

hybrid phoenix
#

I wonder where tech-art lies

#

Based on what I've seen flying around it's quite close to VFX

flat gazelle
#

It's right there

#

Technical

hybrid phoenix
#

Oh that's tech-art?

flat gazelle
#

These were just art roles

#

yea

hybrid phoenix
#

Ah

#

Kinda assumed technical was a bracket for all tech roles 😛

west surge
#

I think some companies idea of tech artist will be much higher skilled than others. For instance 3d artist in arch vis is terribly low skilled.

hybrid phoenix
#

Technical art is always high-skill

west surge
#

I should know. All of my seniors could not model, texture or unwrap.

flat gazelle
#

Programmers

unknown.png
#

(The survey should be taken with a whole heap of salt)

hybrid phoenix
#

Technical art is an immensely different story from regular 3D art

flat gazelle
hybrid phoenix
#

Suspected it was that one

#

Was already trying to find it again

wary idol
#

VFX salary on average is lower compared to programmer positions

Technical artist is a weird combination of VFX and a programmer

flat gazelle
#

What are you on about?

wary idol
#

in what world does VFX artist have a higher salary than a programmer?

flat gazelle
#

This one?

hybrid phoenix
#

Depends on the programming position

wary idol
#

junior sure, anything else definitely not

hybrid phoenix
#

But there's a massive shortage in VFX

#

I think you're going off the assumption that VFX falls in the regular 'art' salary bracket

shut tree
#

he does more than houdini prefabs tho 😛

hybrid phoenix
#

It really does not

flat gazelle
#

That survey apparently came to that conclusion, but you might have more data?

#

I'd love to see it because it's hard to find.

#

And again, it'll vary from company to company. We do salaries based on experience so the role you have doesn't matter.

#

There was no salaary negotiation at all when I joined.

hybrid phoenix
#

Where are you again now? Embark?

flat gazelle
#

yep

hybrid phoenix
#

Seems like a cool place to work 👌

flat gazelle
#

I like it 🙂

wary idol
shut tree
#

also its somekind of multi choise form these numbers are based on

flat gazelle
hybrid phoenix
#

What part is plain wrong, Blue Man?

shut tree
#

the more money u make the less time u spend on forms like that mayB? 🙂

wary idol
flat gazelle
#

Ah fair.

#

I have only been a vfx artist for 13 years so I still have much to learn.

hybrid phoenix
#

As in, your programming positions make more than that survey says you would?

flat gazelle
#

I make more than that survey says.

#

But that is just one data point

#

I assume Blue man has more

#

Some internal docs or something.

west surge
#

Look at you all, arguing over loads of cash haha. I'll just take my 24k

hybrid phoenix
#

Just trying to understand exactly what he's disagreeing with and what the basis for it is

#

Because I'm always very interested to have a broader view of this stuff

shut tree
#

programmers can make tons of money 😛

#

but its also when you join

hybrid phoenix
wary idol
hybrid phoenix
#

None of this is relevant to the US though

#

That survey is UK and EU

#

Which is a dramatically different landscape when it comes to salaries

#

For the US, 70k is definitely low for a senior programmer

#

Won't dispute that

#

But for Europe it's very high (as far as I've seen in my career)

shut tree
#

there are reasons to take a lower pay than you can, for future prospects

hybrid phoenix
#

^can attest, planning to do that atm

#

Being happy's quite a big reason to take a pay cut

shut tree
#

you will never be a vital part of google

#

also that

west surge
#

@hybrid phoenix it fuckin is. Best pay cut ever for me, left a company that had an awful ethic towards its workers.

flat gazelle
hybrid phoenix
#

Yep, that's a big one

#

Tech bonuses in the US can happily be 50% of the salary or even more

#

In Europe you should be absolutely thrilled if you get 10% - and that's really incredibly high

flat gazelle
#

Hehe, yeah.

hybrid phoenix
#

Current job has no bonuses at all

flat gazelle
#

They'd ship a game selling like 5 million and pick up new cars, while we did significantly better and got a few months rent after tax.

wary idol
#

The more I read through that survey the more it seems like they pulled out the numbers out of their rear end, except if in EU some roles are more valuable than in US
I am working from EU but for a US team, so I don't have experience with EU based companies

flat gazelle
#

Yeah, VFX seems low in the survey. But not by a ton.

hybrid phoenix
#

Based on my experience (which, I'll readily admit, is definitely not massively extensive), the numbers they have in there really don't seem that off

wary idol
flat gazelle
#

?

shut tree
#

EU doesnt have many big movie studios, but still we have some studios 😛

flat gazelle
#

I only have my own experience to go of, and the people I've hired.

shut tree
#

a lot of advertizing stuff

flat gazelle
#

Though I wasn't part of salary for most of them.

#

The survey numbers are on the lower end for vfx, but not by much

wary idol
#

I was replying to you message before the edit "Yeah, VFX seems low in the survey" to be clear

flat gazelle
#

Right, and you disagree?

wary idol
#

very different context

hybrid phoenix
#

Just noticed this in there

#

Note the US being basically 2x Europe's numbers

wary idol
#

true but I'm pointing out there appears to be a larger difference between roles in US compared to EU, where a programmer is top earning position

hybrid phoenix
#

I think programmers are prone to earning significantly more in the US because there are more general tech companies

#

I often feel like SF drives up programming salaries for literally every kind of programming position

#

Just because programming

royal lintel
#

Programmers in general are paid much higher, not just SF

flat gazelle
#

Keep in mind the survey shows averages.

#

Averages suck

hybrid phoenix
#

Median when

flat gazelle
#

Team Median!

hybrid phoenix
#

heh

royal lintel
#

Grouping every discipline in that chart also isn't very useful.

hybrid phoenix
#

The entire discussion we're having here is that based on experiences of various people here and the stats from the survey

#

Programming is not, in fact, very much ahead of positions like tech-art and VFX (in Europe)

royal lintel
#

That's not the point, the point is that there is a wide disparity between disciplines

#

not necessarily those disciplines

hybrid phoenix
royal lintel
#

That's an argument not to group all of art together, if anything

flat gazelle
#

But the survey didn't?

hybrid phoenix
#

^