your github
#career-chat
inner spire
sour mist
@velvet wren Yo, I'm interested in your job, come PM
flat gazelle
Hey Job chatters! What things do you put on pro con lists when you are weighing competing offers against eachother?
I have my basic things, but I'd like to hear what others value
swift oracle
1st: Price
2nd: Duration
3rd: Type of work
4th: The project/ is it something im intersted in
The 4th one is optional, but personally things that sound cool tend to be more fun to work on
burnt coral
Hey, can anyone in the industry give me some advice? It's my dream to be a games programmer (currently studying a degree in it) How can i make sure to secure a job, or even get a year in industry (also part of my degree) without a huge portfolio of projects? I'm finding it difficult to prove i can prorgam when i don't have many projects to my name, everything i've done previous has been small stuff that hasn't really challenged me
kindred mason
@burnt coral Where are you going to school at?
Having a degree and even a Games Degree doesn't necessarily mean you will land a job
It doesn't even mean you have the skill set to do the job
Just means you paid some money for a piece of paper
What you do during your time in school makes a big difference
Do game jams
Do personal projects
Do royalty or open-sourced projects
Game Jams in particular can be huge for you
I've landed a lot of good contracts because of them
Especially if they show diversity
wheat hinge
Hi, https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaeljbrune/ So I'm kind of in the industry and been fairly indie for 4 years. Mainly as a programmer I've had to create a strong github.com account or create a single project that really shows something awesome. It doesn't need to be large but it needs to be big enough to show something interesting. Otherwise most will ask you to do a template test during the interview. A lot of people are going to want some sort of project they can look at and either you can provide one or they will give you an outline of one. They might give you an outline of one anyways.
I mean that said before I was with T-Mobile and Comcast
kindred mason
I graduated from Savannah College of Art and Design with a GameDev degree. While it looks nice, the only thing it does for me is people saying, whoa...and paying me a little bit of extra money ๐
Otherwise, it's basically 100% my past projects
http://www.VictorBurgosGames.com @burnt coral it's very outdated sadly. I need to get in there and clean it up and focus a bit more and also update with the projects over the last 6 months.
I've just been a tad bit busy with things
burnt coral
Yea, i know experience is a huge part of it - I recently did a game jam. In first year i avoided them because of inexperience, hadn't really touched game engines in the slightest :/
Im studying at the University of Hull (north east England), its not the greatest but the course content seems to be decent in most modules. I want to do personal game projects but my issue is ideas - i'm not good at initial ideas
kindred mason
@burnt coral TBH, avoiding them for any reason is always bad
Especially experience...
because how are you going to get it otherwise? ๐
burnt coral
I have a short website (samsmithdev.wordpress.com) And it's not so great - i need to do more to flesh it out.
kindred mason
But yeah, TBH, not sure how much of the degree has helped me pull in the contracts. But I am having a lot of fun and making a decent living after graduation.
burnt coral
Other than a CV what would be the best thing to send to a company, at the moment im trying to secure a year in industry - other than it being part of my degree programme, i think it'll be one of the most useful things to do. Direct experience in a real company
Side note, has anyone here ever heard of Prolog?
kindred mason
@burnt coral You need to send them your portfolio
Game samples
I mean it's different for each company and specialty
Obviously, for programming. You'll want code samples
Or github repo
Public one
So they can see what's up
Between website showing off gameplay and gtihub repo showing code
I don't know what else it could be
I mean, I've been asked for do C++ tests
Very simple gameplay bug fixing and then creating content tests
So they can tell if you can just jump into someone else's shit and work
tidal sable
I would second the game jam idea, and try to work as part of a team in any way you can
Even with long term project experience, game jams are probably things I'm most likely to bring up in an interview ๐
burnt coral
Sounds like a need to do more stuff then. This year i'm actually going into game dev, 1st year was really basic because it was intended to get everyone on the same level.
I reckon i'll polish the game i did at the jam this weekend - i have an animator friend who can generate assetts for me because honestly it's so bad. It's an infinite runner with images of a street pulled from google (by taking screenshots..) and some really bad assetts. I mean the 'character' is a blue t-pose humanoid with zero animation
kindred mason
TBH, if they can see what you can do in a 3-7 day period, they can expect great things from you in a 3-36 month period
@burnt coral What school?
I asked before, you didn't answer
kindred mason
Oh my bad
you did
@burnt coral is this an online course?
I noticed you said modules
burnt coral
no its not online though i was offered one of those
seemed really sketchy
bragged about being recognised by TIFA or something that began with T, google didn't really bring up much so i gave it a pass. Plus as well as getting a degree from Uni, i also get the Uni experience
I think my uni calls its stuff my different names.
Instead of departments we have schools, courses are modules, programmes are courses. Bit confusing really, especially when the VLE has the general terms
Ooh, big question - how best can I quickly get into c++ without starting from hello world? I tried to program in ue4 but couldn't figure out where to even put my code. I do a lot of c# and it doesn't seem too dissimilar. Suppose the question is more where does code go. There's a lot of tags etc and it generally looks like nothing I've ever approached ๐
spice dagger
@burnt coral UE4 C++ is very Macro and API heavy, it takes an little getting used to. Learning the nuances of UE4 C++ is part of the process, especially if you have never seen or attempted to code with it before. Unfortunately the best place for you to start would be beginner tutorials, assuming that you have never written C++ before. At least until you realise that C# is only different in an few but fundamental ways. It will click once you see the process of creating and writing new classes for UE4 C++
flat gazelle
@swift oracle cool thanks! Would those be the same for you if they were fulltime positions? On my list I have career advancement, location, studio reputation and so on. Interesting to see that our prios are so different.
swift oracle
If we're talking studios and full time, then a lot would coincide with yours, I guess I'd also tack on health benefits and relocation assistance if I was speaking strictly overseas as well. And the project would be a small addition, I'd be much happier joining a studio making console/ PC games over mobile. Or a really story driven game with deep lore and amazing world design
plucky hatch
yo
burnt coral
@spice dagger thanks for the advice ๐
bleak grail
Got a question for you guys, when working as a freelancer and working hourly,
Troubleshooting, bug hunting/fixing as well as making additions/tweaks to features is a big part of what a programmer does. I'm I wrong in assuming that those tasks do get counted as work hours?
kindred mason
@bleak grail Of course they do
bleak grail
I assumed correctly, thank you
It just came up in a discussion and I felt conflicted for a moment
oblique pollen
Any good concept artists in here?
plucky hatch
No one uses the job-boards channels here for "looking-for-talent" and "looking for work". seems to be asked too much to provide some basic essential information for the required questions/field there. sigh. I would really prefer if we dont get the unqualified job threads that are allowed on the unreal forum here as well. a minimum standard information like the bot questions or the content of the "recruitment template" from the forum is really not asked too much to do if you are halfway serious.
another solution would be to separate the job board in "paid" (really money for work) and "others" (royalties and other forms of "probable" payment). this would separate e.g. the flood of unqualified content from the serious company buisness. sorry if this sounds harsh, but if you go thru the unreal forums there are so much unrealistic or unqualified threads and nearly no-one bothers to even provide the recruitment template information or more serious info.
ebon adder
yeah agree, I mentioned the same earlier ^
in looking for talent "Compensation" exists to define unpaid/paid/royalty etc. it could be the same in looking for work....
bleak grail
Is it working properly? I'm wondering because I can see a lot of UnrealBot empty posts
plucky hatch
OR: why do we have the same job offers/LFW sections here again, if they are already on the unreal forum? Instead of re-inventing the wheel here and produce unneccessary redundancy, i suggest to put the work/effort in the unreal forum only instead: moderators should take care, that the minimum of the required infromation is provided there per thread. e.g. insist on a kind of template for basic information for threads in both forums there.
bleak grail
I think it's easier for people to contact each other here, and the new system here forces the template
Also, people use discord for a lot of things and one of them is the UE stuff, so it's easily accessed compared to going to a forum, looking into threads. My lazy mind is speaking ๐
digital gate
The fact that I have to search for that person in the server to be able to message them is a hindrance. Should have some way to easily contact them
maybe its just me but that's easily a point away from those channels vs a forum.
oblique pollen
I prefer chat on here. Screw slow forums that require sign up or login.
steel creek
100 agreed on making it paid or non paid.
swift oracle
^
ive received a slew of offers for unpaid, but I cant take them.
If people who contacted knew that some people are only looking for paid work it would make everyone's life easier
I put that critique in the #server-feedback channel yesterday so hopefully something comes across
fallow juniper
Completely random posting... but I'm here for other reasons, so why not check.. but if anybody has expert level experience with autocad fabrication and piping design and is willing to travel for three months.. I'm paying about 40/hr plus 2500/mo perdiem, plus benefits
But you have to be willing to go to Utah
glossy patrol
I am looking for talented experienced UE4 engineers to help create immersive vertical slices of video games, we are based in the UK and looking for people to work in-house. Check out our website www.rewind.co
opal cloak
People
Please use the correct way to post jobs
Look at the most bottom channels
@umbral ocean @glossy patrol @fallow juniper
umbral ocean
what is this one for then?
opal cloak
Career advice, interview prep, resume and portfolio critique.
umbral ocean
also i never noticed those below are they new?
opal cloak
yeah they are
umbral ocean
maybe change this one to career-chat?
opal cloak
Already tallking to other mods about it :)
umbral ocean
im just used to posting here, deleted the ones here and will post there.
opal cloak
No problem, it might not be too clear
bleak grail
@opal cloak Are those couple channels working properly? I just wonder what all those UnrealBot posts are
opal cloak
cehck the pinned posts
it explains how to use it
pm the bot
and say lfw and lft
but prepare yourself
because you get 30s to respond
bleak grail
I understand, I just am curious about those bot posts
opal cloak
yeah those are generated from what you send to the bot
bleak grail
Alright, thanks
opal cloak
no biggie
glossy patrol
I have already posted to the Looking for work chat, just seems people post here more ๐
plucky hatch
i see no enty at all on both of the new channels #looking-for-talent and #looking-for-work. is the bot thing not working?
balmy kraken
past shale
Wow, I had a hard time not getting canceled the whole time by that bot! ๐ ๐
Lol! My tablet is really slow. ๐
bleak grail
For me they are only empty UnrealBot posts ๐ฎ
granite brook
past shale
@granite brook Lol, that's exactly how I feel! ๐
carmine basin
What's the most formal way to warn others on here of unsavoury job posters?
Or is it just sort of a drop in the bucket? lol
digital gate
On here? No such avenue. There was a place to do so on the forum but no idea if that's maintained anymore.
Guess you could put them on blast here, but uh. Ask the mods if that's cool.
carmine basin
Ah, makes sense. I suppose the new job channels might help legitimize things. I just figured if someone does something crummy then it might be helpful to let everyone know "hey, this isn't someone you wanna try to work with"
digital gate
Yeah there's gotta be some kind of validation for that kinda thing to not be suspect
Tends to be better overall to just move along.
carmine basin
Yeah that's why I was wondering if there was some officiated channel to prevent "he-said-she-said" scenarios
thanks for the heads up, appreciated
digital gate
Probably still gonna be like that but at least if you can validate it it won't be public.
inner spire
@plucky hatch Job post are done in #looking-for-talent now
@plucky hatch instructions on how to post are in the pins of #looking-for-talent
regal swallow
Other than job channels in here, are there any other particular places people search for work?
fading yoke
I was told recently by a long-time professional Unreal gamedev guy that if you want to get a job doing this stuff you have to be good with doing the C++ stuff and so you gotta have C++ example projects on your Github and whatnot. That makes sense to me because Blueprints is just some niche thing in the big picture of jobs, even though small startups and indie people will be more likely to prefer it.
These past few days I've been brushing up on it, but I feel like I'm so much faster at working with Blueprints and that even if I invest the effort to get comfortable with the C++ stuff I still won't be working as quickly. Yes, it's great to know the ins and outs of the engine and how to create your own Blueprint nodes that will work a lot faster for convenience's sake...but I just have trouble seeing where to draw the line between doing stuff with Blueprints and doing stuff with C++.
lilac walrus
Blueprint isn't that niche, and many companies will have dedicated scripting departments that operate independently of the programming department
at the end of the day, almost every major game engine has a scripting language used for some form of content creation
(internal or third party)
fading yoke
Thanks for the reassurance that I'm not being that dumb about this
lilac walrus
aye, just don't expect to get a programming role without demonstrable experience writing code
at the same time, as a scripter it pays to be familiar with multiple scripting languages
strong oriole
how do you handle code review in gamedev? Like if you making gameplay code and its binded with animations blueprint, behavior tree and so on..
lilac walrus
which part of the code review is causing you issues?
strong oriole
We actually just start doing this and trying to find out best way to approach it
lilac walrus
usually you'd have a changelist in version control, and whoever is responsible for reviewing it will just obtain that changelist and look it over
I'm not sure what else you could actually want to know
granite brook
Sounds more like "overview" than "review"
strong oriole
the last time it actually end like overview instead of review
which is sad and I dont know how to push review aspect
fading yoke
Quick question because I got lucky with an interview: even though I don't own a VR thing, doing Unreal (BP, C++) for VR projects isn't anything crazy different from doing it for normal PC games, right?
lilac walrus
you can't make a VR game without the VR hardware
how would you know it works?
otherwise, it takes some getting used to since the VR hardware itself means you handle things a bit differently, but for the most part gameplay is gameplay
shut tree
sure u can create a VR game and release it on steam w/o testing, i dont see the problem ๐
lilac walrus
wat
strong oriole
just put it into early acess
shut tree
make sure they are trowing up so hard they cant refund ๐
lilac walrus
how can you do that if you can't test it and don't know if it works :p?
fading yoke
Obviously they'd supply me with one -- I was just asking about how different the programming side of things is when it comes to doing VR stuff as opposed to the usual PC thing. That's all.
lilac walrus
not enormously
untold oyster
Looking for a dev with Vive and at least 3 Vive trackers, got some interesting job to do ๐ต
opal cloak
@untold oyster look at the #looking-for-talent channel to see how you can post your job post :)
untold oyster
@opal cloak thanks! already did that ๐
west dome
@granite brook that is genius!
plucky hatch
Just out of curiosity is there even any interest in Video Production/After Effects type of stuff for the gaming industry?
I know most places outsource it to a production company.
granite brook
Well, idk. Smaller indie studios probably outsource logo creation and capture trailer footage themselves.
Maybe for some "after effects", but I probably wouldn't hire someone for just that.
But I can't talk for everyone of course
@tyoungjr#1593 :x
lilac walrus
I don't know many studios that do their trailers etc internally
it's almost always outsourced
flat gazelle
Large studios tend to have a media team who make trailers, screenshots, marketing material and so on
And it tends to be Premiere and After Effects type work since the footage usually comes from or represents a game there isn't much need for things like Nuke.
lilac walrus
I dunno, the trailers at Lionhead were done externally, as were the trailers for Devil May Cry 4
those I have first-hand experience of
screenshots and stuff was internal, but not the trailers
flat gazelle
I worked with the Media team on a lot of trailers at DICE. I think the team is now 10+ people
little inlet
Hi!
I am looking for someone assisting a Houdini VFX arist on implementing a sound based vertex animiation into UE4 for an immediate job. I am based in NYC but you do not need to be here (the animator is in New Zeeland).
Please send me a message if this is for you.
Need someone who knows this pipeline specifically to assist the animator for implementation, with limited guidance by myself.
Its for a high exposure VR project releasing 2018.
kindred mason
I wouldn't mind some outsourced trailers TBH. Means I can concentrate on other things.
I guess I need to work on my own personal projects first though, rather than always others;) One day, when I catch up.
flat gazelle
The problem with outsourced trailers is that then it gets made by people who don't necessarily know and understand the game. Especially an early stage trailer like a reveal when nothing is done and things have to be custom built for specific shots.
@Doomslacker#3164 Have you checked the Houdini discords? Sounds like a fun project but I'm all booked up.
elder mist
@flat gazelle it all depends on the skills of the person. If your skill is low and you know the game well - will lead to bad result as well. Yet skilled film editor may catch up things quickly.
grave swallow
Hey there, is it normal or okay to ask a industry for work training or trainee oppertunities like you come there to work for free to get some on job experience ? Or is that like a no go at different companies ?
finite hill
Thatโd be an internship I believe, I donโt think many companies would shoot you down but I guess it depends on the Boss
grave swallow
Would this be a bit more appealing at smaller companies as where I live we have no quite tripple A company ?
lilac walrus
a lot of companies won't take interns (particularly smaller ones), because it's expensive to have them
grave swallow
Now it seems like interns are getting paid, im talking about work training (direct translation) like you go there and work for free like no money involved to get on job experience ? Is that also expensive for companies ?
lilac walrus
Yes, they lose money by doing so
it can require insurance, then there are issues with potential contracts, and then there's the simple cost of that person on those around them, since anyone doing an internship isn't going to be particularly experienced
grave swallow
Ahh understood
remote saffron
but It is always good for a try I guess
lilac walrus
you can always try, yeah
remote saffron
on the other hand doing something on your own might make more sense
lilac walrus
most companies will advertise their internships if they have them
a lot of companies give theirs specifically to university students too, that's a common practice
remote saffron
now that I think about it I would not want to hire someone who didn't do anything because I would want people to do stuff on their own, and they have to prove that they are capable of doing that ๐ค
flat gazelle
Having an intern around costs senior time. Last time I trained an intern I was down to like 50% efficiency due to having to stop and show how things worked, make sure the intern is briefed, help them and so on. It takes a lot more effort than at least I first thought.
lilac walrus
pretty much - interns are an expensive net-loss for a company
Juniors are also a net loss, but the idea is that they are an investment
lilac walrus
not really
remote saffron
in eastern europe where we don't earn much, maybe a junior isn't necessary net loss ๐ฎ
also maybe it depends on the junior
flat gazelle
If you take time away from someone more experienced than you, you are a net loss
remote saffron
haha
lilac walrus
developers require a certain amount of experience before their productivity outweighs the cost on productivity of their seniors
remote saffron
so in a normal workspace seniors are actually spending time on juniors
flat gazelle
yes
lilac walrus
I would be surprised in any workplace if they aren't
someone has to manage your workload, review your submissions etc, after all
flat gazelle
Coaching other developers is usually a requirement for getting the senior title
remote saffron
I guess i picked the wrong places then
lilac walrus
'coaching' is generally a lot more hands-off than you might realise in my experience
remote saffron
actually in my second workplace my code was checked the first 2 times I commited
idk, I didn't feel like people would bother much about me
but I don't consider this to be a good thing, I guess I would be better if people would have paid more attention
one day it would be nice to work somewhere where there are code reviews and stuff ๐
plucky hatch
no one is using the 2 new channels in the job board for weeks now. so please either delete them or change something. If the bot-thing is too complicated for people then maybe provide templates for posts in both channels, insist on they are being filled out completely for each posting and delete postings that do not follow this rule. if you dont insist on any form of minimum quality and information in those channels, then we will get those unqualified mess we see so much in the Unreal Forum.
flat gazelle
I think there's a visibilty bug. Looking for talent has a post from today and the last post in looking for work is a couple of days old
lilac walrus
'for weeks'
those channels have only been there for two weeks
@flat gazelle - are you sure there's a visibility bug? It doesn't really look any less busy than the old channel used to be with pinned messages
flat gazelle
I meant if he can't see any new posts
And I think I've seen others mention the same
lilac walrus
if there is an issue, it's worrying because that would be a Discord issue
spice dagger
@plucky hatch #looking-for-talent has posts daily?
grave swallow
I do have a study in 3D and Animation hopefully that will also attract more, but I dont got anything to lose, Is just that when I am going through this jobs near me its "3 Years experience in tripple A games in this and that." And for me it kinda made sense to maybe ask for work training or something to get that experience.
If it is a No go I guess I do some "Normal jobs" while building stronger portofolio so maybe I can haha pass that "Hey have a 3 years experience in this and that"
remote saffron
true, you don't have anything to loose, and it really depends on the place so it is definitely good for a try
grave swallow
Hahha just sent a email after hearing from you guys I kinda feel like im gonna be big like burden to the company
plucky hatch
then its a visibility problem, here you can see my view of the channel:
here the other channel and also the pin-board having just the instructions in there, but no actually postings for me visible:
granite brook
Welllll
NICK
There are no pinned messages though
This is how it looks like when you can see the posts
plucky hatch
oh, ok thanks. for me nothing visible sincs the start of the channels 1st november. also clicking on the bot or anything in its line does not reveal the text you can see. anyone got a clue what to set up here?
grave swallow
Go on discord setting than on appreance check if you appreance mode is not set to compact
granite brook
I just check the permissions
Users are allowed to read that channel though
So it might not be our problem
Do all of you encounter this?
grave swallow
No
mental viper
no
granite brook
I'll check back with Nick what this could be
hasty bison
I'm having the same issue with those channels. Just empty posts for me.
Ah, it's because "website preview" is disabled.
hasty bison
Turn that on
For some reason that fixed it for me.
What exactly does the bot post into those channels? It doesn't look like a link to a website.
granite brook
Embedded Messages
It's basically a way to format a message that the bot posts
With Title, Columns, Footer etc
hasty bison
Ahh, weird that the discord description specifically state that the link preview will also affect those kind of messages.
edgy zephyr
Hello guys, I'm 42 years old dev, but I mainly do Web on my life. I'm wondering if there are opportunity for myself to switch to UE/dev (c++/BP edition) ...
I especially designers getting into UE not so many devs
plucky hatch
ah, yess thanks @hasty bison , this setting was not on per default. so i switched it on manually and now i can see everything even in compact mode. thanks again!
plucky hatch
Hi Rockfall studio Here
lunar olive
Hello! I'm currently searching for 3D modeling job. I can create props, environments, characters, precedural textures and Unreal materials.
I work pretty fast, responsible for results and create assets at affordable rates. You can see my job posting in the #looking-for-work channel.
devout ridge
Any programmers proficient with multiplayer and bluprints looking for work? send me a message ๐
kindred mason
You gotta tell them it's only $11/hour though
untold granite
11 isn't that bad, better than unpaid, and generally royaltee projects ๐
dreamy jacinth
yeah but I would expect to get paid more than minimum wage to work at McD's. Or anything else I didn't enjoy. At least game dev is mostly fun ๐
wild solstice
depends on the country ... average pay here is ~5โฌ/h
but the price of a movie ticket also isn't 15$ .. it's more like 5$
rare carbon
Hey guys I'm looking to hire someone with heavy ue4 experience, multiplayer and Jack of all traits on the platform. Graphics experience a big plus. If your interested, message me. Ashrym@gmail.com
ocean harbor
@wild solstice imho that should effect your margins instead of price. Otherwise itโs a race to the bottom.
wild solstice
'race to the bottom' ... that's a bad thing right ?
better us 2 and 3rd world country programmers raise our rates to those of USA
wild solstice
11$/h is less than McDonalds in many countries, but still most of earth population earns less then 11$/h
and at the end of a days worth of work you end up with 100$, which is way more then most of the unpaid jobs posted here
lilac walrus
most of the earth does indeed earn less than $11 per hour - but they also don't have $1000 computers and spare time to learn how to make video games
ocean harbor
@wild solstice yes, long term it undermines effort of those who started early and makes it worse for everyone in long run
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/race-bottom.asp
queen light
The McDonalds near me is $14/h. I personally think an Intro Freelance rate should be around $30-40/h. Speaking of, are there any experienced UE4 devs willing to do paid consulting?
hoary cosmos
Where do you live @queen light that a fast food job pays $14/h? Even in NYC minumum wage is $10.50 or $11 per hour.
queen light
Redmond Washington, a lot of fast food are paying around $14-15, billboards everywhere. lol
hoary cosmos
Wow, that's great. Would be better if more minumum wage jobs paid like that.
queen light
But then the average hourly in the area I think is around $30/h here anyway.
digital gate
Intro freelance rate?
<glances at current rate> If you say so
@queen light You can PM me; also consider posting something in #looking-for-talent
swift oracle
It really depends, my first on site job (it was 1 day) paid $30/hr, I'd probably never do that price for on site again
queen light
Also depends on if you're freelance fulltime, or if it's a side gig.
Sometimes people are willing to take that $15/h freelance, but others have to eat. ๐
Taxes, medical, software, hardware.. If you don't have an employer giving you those benefits, how do you afford them?
compact ivy
if your a freelance, your pay is largely based on your reputation in my expirence.
contractors starting out usually get around $15 an hour (at least every contractor i've known), which is fair I think since you are generally unproven.
though every contractor i've known eventually gets hired on fulltime with the company they freelance for once they have proven themselves, myself included.
queen light
Sounds like a problem with the area, or the field if it's $15/h..
But I'd also imagine a freelancer should have a nice portfolio and references to back up his rate.
compact ivy
which is why I said $15 is fair if you're starting out.
queen light
What does "Starting out" mean? Small portfolio, no references?
compact ivy
that
queen light
Gotcha, then maybe. But it's still really tough.
queen light
I don't expect every freelancer to have to live in godamn India.. lol
digital gate
I started out at $7, didn't stay there very long
queen light
Where was that, was it freelance or fulltime?
compact ivy
plus one thing you have to consider starting out as well, if you have no reputation, contracting you is gonna be risky since the contractor has no idea how you work with a team (which is increadibly common for longer term projects),
queen light
Pretty shit excuse.
If they don't pan out, then they don't pan out. But that's asking to get stuck to a shitty contract.
Are they also promising "a good word" Haha.
compact ivy
They're not no. But not having the "does not work well with others / is non comunicative" mark on your reputation is a major plus.
queen light
Right, always. But still not a good excuse for not starting off with a strong contract, because it'll bite you in the ass if you can't figure out how to negotiate to start a project. Then you also know that studio, or head is okay with using whoever they can get their hands on for cheap.
swift oracle
The site I worked on provided a place to work, but i had to use my own hardware
only really a secondary monitor and internet
I was just lucky I dropped money on a VR Ready laptop with a GTX1060
lone furnace
hey gents any programmers here that want to team up with an artist. no project yet, keep the scope small, you do the code i do the art?
digital gate
Can we see the art?
lone furnace
heres my art station account to give a good idea
can also go the low poly route, heres a character i did a while back https://i.imgur.com/fF97Rcx.png
sand cipher
I rarely met ppl that wanted to pay more then 10$/h thats crazy
flat gazelle
Don't take them as clients. If you've got the chops finding clents who are willing to pay isn't that hard
queen light
What people? Sounds like companies that just want cheap labor that don't typically deal in the field.
A small part of it is that they don't actually understand how much to pay, so a lot of times it's up to you to educate as a freelancer.
kindred mason
Not all companies/clients are like that though
Don't just give in to low paying jobs
queen light
And if you willingly post, especially in public that you can do work for $10/h, guess what? You'll get a lot of requests, and they'll all be pretty shit environments and projects. (I'm not counting the small guy, you can give the small guy a break once in awhile as a freelancer.)
kindred mason
Sometimes (if you can), it's just best to wait for the next opportunity.
queen light
^ That's all it takes.
kindred mason
There are plenty of clients that are willing to pay $50+/hr
queen light
People feel like, "Well I only get jobs when I post for $10/h" not true.. You're just not patient, or something is wrong with your portfolio.
steel creek
Indeed so long as they get $50 an hour worth of work
kindred mason
Aye
Even dialing it back down to $30/hr
Even more clients
The $2-$15/hour range... meh, I've seen that enough around here.
queen light
You know most employers calculate your salary at about a 24-50% increase from your actual rate, right? (Taxes, medical, equipment, software) So most of them aren't too sad about paying that increased rate for a Freelancer.
steel creek
Last three employers calculated it from the words out of my mouth for what I would get paid doing their job
That's a lot less to calculate
queen light
Yeah, I'm just giving an example of an employer willingly paying you $40, when their average is $30 for their in-house.
kindred mason
Ah
Aye, this last client definitely is paying me more than his FTE
Because it's a few-month contract vs his FTE yearly salary
queen light
Correct, and they don't have to pay for your benefits.
kindred mason
Right
You just have to be careful
Some clients don't understand how contractors work
Or rather legally how they work
plucky hatch
lol
compact ivy
Even if there is no way to actually track it...
kindred mason
They can't do that
Well, hours CAN be tracked easily
There are a million ways to do it
compact ivy
true
queen light
Talking from yesterday about people doing $10-$15/h freelance, that's not a good place to come from.. I've tried the low rate route, and you only get low tier projects and just terrible environments. :/
steel creek
Absolutely agreed. If you set your expectation on the low side then you will get nothing but the low side
queen light
Sometimes it can be difficult to determine a price point, so you have a good chance of screwing yourself unless you have calculated evidence that a specific piece will typically take you 10 hours.
Then tack on "Each additional change for this rate"
digital gate
You're hardly ever going to see somebody come in and say "well, you want $10. I'll give you $30+"
queen light
Correct, don't lowball. They'll always take it.
kindred mason
On the flipside, there's nothing saying that a $15/hr job will be a crap environment
queen light
I can't say for other environments, but my absolute low is $30. Anything below that has just been a terrible experience for me.
Again, just personal experience.
compact ivy
it largely depends on the company you contract to
queen light
True, I'm not dealing with larger companies.
flat gazelle
Once you get your quality of work above a certain level, you need to look beyond startups. Established studios are usually able to pay more.
Also, find your niche. Environment/Prop artist #658428 is going to have a harder time to negotiate than the specialist who is one of 10 people in the world able to pull of what he does.
keen vine
@flat gazelle are you an artist? what advice do you give to new artists? I got the impression in the beginning you are a prop/environment/character artist and the specialisation does happen later.
flat gazelle
I am an artist but I'm a bad example. I've been a VFX artist since I started in the industry so I've always been specialized.
Environments and props is just so incredibly wide and common that it's hard to compete as a beginner. Find something that your really like. Maybe you are the vegetation expert and make foliage like nobodies buisness. Or maybe you're the person who is the best at making destructible environments. Whatever it is, find you USP (Unique Selling Point)
keen vine
I understand this and definately can see the advantage of being specialised as vegetation artist etc. but it also depends where you wanna go. In Germany eg the games industry is not that far developed as in US/Canada and there is seldom a good starting/junior position for a specialized artist.
flat gazelle
Indeed, I was more talking about freelancers.
keen vine
Yeah ofc there are plenty of reaaaally cool specialised freelance artists out there. ๐
edgy zephyr
really I would not work for less than 40โฌ/hour from home
plucky hatch
Why not?
OFC it depends on the region you live in
If you were working for โฌ40 / hour here. You would be richer than 90% of the population
And its middle europe
Most studios here offer max 3-4k / month and i never had problems with the environment
Also i've never met an artist here who got more than 3k / month
queen light
@plucky hatch Freelance, or in-house?
lilac walrus
40 euros an hour is quite a lot
crisp shell
Well not really. I mean this depends from lot of thing.
Junior developers getting 3-4k / month.
According he works 20 day / 8 hour average.. its 25$ / hour..
From this point 40 is really lot
Senior and lead developers can get 6-8k / month
lilac walrus
I'm a fairly experienced developer, I have never earnt anywhere near 6-8k per month
I mean, 8k per month is an annual salary verging on 100k
crisp shell
Yeah true. We are in same boat. Im also experienced dev, never earnt this salary..
Its just stat from google and i picked highest salary
lilac walrus
I'm pretty sure almost nobody is earning that kind of salary in the Euro games industry save for a few executive positions
crisp shell
My point is just in some situation 40 can be legit
But that depends what country what role
lilac walrus
some people in places like San Fran will likely be earning that much, but cost of living demands it
crisp shell
And of course only at professional studios
lilac walrus
a senior engineer in games at Microsoft HQ gets about $120k
crisp shell
Yup and we need investigate what senior developer do :)
I mean:
- junior developers mostly finish senior/lead devs code or implement very small pieces of code
Seniors doing full review on juniors and implementing complex systems or frameworks for juniors
(Or fully implementing)
lilac walrus
that's not true, juniors would generally be implementing things at a feature level
'finishing' someone elses code is a waste of resources
crisp shell
Yeah i mean "finishing" as feature level.. if its better :P
Well anyway im just saying when some indie team hired a coder for "small tasks"
At the end you realized, you need develop complex frameworks, plan and do backend services and integrate them, modify / integrate tools for designer, review code and optimize if neccessary and do this alone
lilac walrus
haha, been there
crisp shell
And he offer 10 euro or $
fickle hatch
40 eur/hr is hardly a limit for non-routine/contractor work
crisp shell
This is not junior developer role :D
fickle hatch
Non-routine external work can have some insane rates
lilac walrus
40 euros an hour makes sense for some specialised short term roles
but generally speaking, it's pretty high
when I was doing VR stuff (before VR was mainstream) a few years back I'd be charging 180 euros per day + accomodation, which is slightly higher
crisp shell
But just for fun.
In my country a mcdonalds worker getting aprox 3euro / hour :D
lilac walrus
minimum wage here is 2.63 an hour, haha
ocean harbor
As a freelancer you have other expenses which are covered by company when you work as employee. Comparing employment rate vs contracting is a bit pointless.
lilac walrus
yup
crisp shell
And max is controlled by government
lilac walrus
out here my salary is borderline enough to hit the higher tax bracket which is a little disconcerting
mental viper
they could use some nice log function and not use tax brackets...
lilac walrus
pretty much all countries use brackets
in the UK for a while, it was broken, so that if you earned ยฃ1 over the threshold for a particular bracket you'd actually earn less than if you earned ยฃ1 under, hahaha
they fixed that though
crisp shell
Lel in my country there is one tax bracket and one other if you are millionaire.. <- pay less tax as normal peoples :D
lilac walrus
figures
ornate shoal
edgy zephyr
Well In Web Developpement I use to ask 40-50โฌ/hour, that's standard in france for experienced dev (I'm 42), some people can take more thatn 100โฌ. Dunno in unreal/gamedev. And definitively freelancer prices includes a lot of charges : hardware/software, time to learn, need to manage jobless times, desktop, electricity etc
lilac walrus
game dev is amongst the lowest paid of all programming disciplines
edgy zephyr
just can't live decently < 40โฌ/hour
lilac walrus
also, most game dev contracts run into the months in terms of length, so your hourly rate is likely to be lower
you don't spend a lot of time unemployed
edgy zephyr
ya I know, but not allways and I plan to use unreal not only for gamedev but also serious stuff live VIZ, sims etc
fickle hatch
For freelance work, 40 eur/hour seems fine
edgy zephyr
and, you have a big difference between somebody pissingcode and real dev ๐
@lilac walrus agree for long term it can be lowered
flat gazelle
I think you are mixing apples and oranges. I'm a fairly senior VFX artist in Europe and for a regular employment 40eur/h is pretty good (bonus and so on included). However, when freelancing it's a different story. To make room for tax, fees and other things that are rolled up in a salaried position I don't take any projects under 70eur/h. If I do it'd have to come with some other incredible benefits.
I do consider lower rates if it's a several month long fulltime position, but those projects seem few and far between
edgy zephyr
@flat gazelle witch country ?
edgy zephyr
any website ? ๐
flat gazelle
plucky hatch
Huh
plucky hatch
I have never seen anyone who was hired for 70 / hour. But i know ppl who got raise after the project was a success..
queen light
Does every limited time Freelancer discuss their contract with you? lol
Not to mention, depending on certain crunch times, a Freelancer might be hired for a brief period at 2-3x their normal rate to make sure that project is priority.
plucky hatch
I am talking about my experience that i've never seen anyone getting more than that in my region
Ofc if you end up at a big company as a project manager or higher position you can get it, but there you need years of experience and hard work
untold granite
Please, if you want to get people interested in your project, double check your job post('s spelling). Don't get me wrong, your project may be awesome, but when I see something like Mp Me, which should (probably) be PM Me / PM me, I'd be less likely to apply to your job ad (especially if it isn't paid). I get that most people here probably aren't native English speakers, and you don't have to be, but reading over your ad post/ad twice to catch silly things like typos can help a ton in getting people on board ๐ ๐
(As always, this is just a tip from someone who pretty much never does any contract work, so take if for what it's worth)
hybrid phoenix
@plucky hatch We're not talking full-time employement, we're talking temporary freelance contracts. Very different rates
For a normal, full-time office job with benefits, I agree, unlikely. For a freelance gig? Less unlikely if you're good at what you do
queen light
I find Freelance also comes with more stress, but maybe that's just my biased results. :(
Just melding the home and work environment is stressful alone.
I can work from home any day, but choose to come to the office because it just turns my home environment toxic in a way.
plucky hatch
freelance indeed comes with more stress but thats mostly because of idiotic customers
i love working from home, i feel more productive and get more freedom so less stressful
queen light
Guess it's the product of your environment. I don't have a dedicated study/office yet. :(
spice dagger
I find Freelancing sooooo much better.
Way less stressful.
Work when i want and for how long i want wherever i want.
plucky hatch
I live with my gf and i was looking for a place that has an extra room where i can work.
And if you're freelancing better stay organized with different projects
5-6 years ago when i did freelancing as a student i had so many people waiting for me to be available i often forgot what project i should do next lol
spice dagger
Handling multiple jobs can be tricky but as long as you have good time management you will be fine. I dont struggle to handle multiple jobs so it suits me down to the ground.
plucky hatch
I switched to work for one company recently and i find it more sterssful tbh
spice dagger
Depends on the company vibe as well i guess.
Ive had problem clients in the past but the experience only helps you in the long run to choose more wisely next time.
plucky hatch
i still work from home
occasionally we meet at the office
also as a freelancer i had the opportunity to choose what i want to work on
spice dagger
I live in Australia and nearly ALL of my clients have been over seas so i never end up meeting in person.
plucky hatch
who wants to do the boring jobs if theres something that interests you more? ๐
Nice, i just came to thailand last year
to be able to meet my boss
spice dagger
Ive got an young family and i dont want to have to relocate for work, to much stress involved i reckon.
Especially over to an new country.
plucky hatch
yea its much easier if you're alone
spice dagger
Yeah maybe 4 or 5 years ago i would have done it but not now.
terse terrace
I'm running short of time, is anyone here really good with widgets and blueprint? Wwho is willing to work with me on some things? Shouldn't be too indepth and I'll pay you $20 bucks
It involves 3D widgets, which are loads of fun and something I don't want to kill at all because of how easy and intuitaive they are to work with
terse terrace
Thanks for the help @haughty pasturempoun
digital gate
implying minim would be in this server
terse terrace
indeed
plucky hatch
Since everyday i receive requests about ppl asking for free work for their free game. Just think about it how would it look like going into companies and asking for a salary and telling them that there will be no work involved until launch.
??? Na?
drowsy tundra
ROFL at #looking-for-talent
fickle hatch
I love to wirite, maybe I should apply
kindred mason
well
I looked at that metaballs thing
And was like..wtf...troll
Then I saw the paper thing...
fickle hatch
I also like meatballs
kindred mason
Did he write meatballs though?
I thought it said metaballs
yeah
Metaballs lol
fickle hatch
He wrote metaballs, but I want some meatballs
drowsy tundra
TBF, they were asking for plugins, and if they were a thing for older versions it's possible they would be now
I trust a reputable plugin more than my own understanding after a training stream
:p
halcyon oriole
how does one get Freelance commissions?
gloomy rose
neat jackal
@kindred mason I know about the live training, problem is that that just fakes the effect using a 3D texture, I need actual metaballs for a number or reasons (collision, materials, etc.). Problem is that all plugins that achieve this are for older engine versions, I need it for 4.18, and don't know enough about c++ and plugins to update those.
lilac walrus
IIRC, the metaball material used in Protostar wasn't possible outside of the Vulkan version of the engine at the time
I assume this has changed, though
lilac walrus
watching the training stream for metaballs - yeah, this is pretty useless for all but very specialised use cases, hehe
queen light
Do some Freelance Animators use their own Mocap systems? I'm curious if I should get a Mocap setup then have someone clean them up, or if I should just hire someone to do the full process.
kindred mason
@queen light Could hire me ๐ I have my Perception Neuron
And can do cleanup as well
But that's not cheap, so good luck
queen light
Can you do creepy creature movement? Hehe ๐
kindred mason
I can do whatever I can do. If not, I hire out an actor.
Such is life in the MoCap biz ยฏ_(ใ)_/ยฏ
queen light
Why even tell me it's not cheap? That's not how you get business! But honestly, I understand how these things are typically priced. But I have no idea if an animator will usually have their own MoCap.
kindred mason
Also why it's expensive
queen light
Can you PM me a quote?
queen light
It's why I don't want to get a MoCap system. 1. I want a good one if I do get one. 2. They're extremely expensive and often require software licensing.
kindred mason
First and foremost.
queen light
No I know, but I expect it anyway.
I know what hard work is, and I understand that my peers need to eat. ๐
kindred mason
I mean
digital gate
its expensive good luck implies you don't think the person you're talking to can afford it
queen light
^ That's where I'm getting. lol
kindred mason
๐
digital gate
Even if you're honest about it, kinda weird you'd put it like that.
kindred mason
Well, there's a reason why not many people on here look for MoCap though.
Other than probably only a handful of us do it.
queen light
I put my rates out there first, if someone can't afford it then they can't afford it. shrugs
kindred mason
I don't even include it in my job tags anymore.
queen light
Why not? Do you get a lot of PMs expecting something cheap?
kindred mason
Yea
queen light
Maybe it's because people assume 'cheap' when they're looking for MoCap in the first place, right? lol
Yeah, it's CHEAPER, but not CHEAP.
kindred mason
Hmmm, I don't know.
digital gate
idk all you gotta do is just walk around in front of your camera bro
kindred mason
I think people have this illusion that I had no specialized training or use some PSCamera or Kinect setup
digital gate
here, I can give you $20
kindred mason
TBH
If I do ever get some good money in the bank, one of my first investments will probably be a Vicon setup. I do miss them cameras.
queen light
I'm not asking for 100's of anims anyway, so what if it's expensive? If it's well done then awesome.
I've got maybe 4-5 creatures, depending on how things go, nothing too crazy.
plucky hatch
@ancient light DM me about the job posting when you can. Apologies for the tag, can't really find you in the server.
This brings up the point, the display of contact information in job posting really need to change.
digital gate
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I have to just search or tag someone to be able to DM if they don't provide an email.
"minor" but also an easy fix. Heck you can even have that be an option
plucky hatch
Hey
ebon cedar
@kindred mason Is the perception neuron fairly accurate with UE4/Maya?
kindred mason
@ebon cedar suppose it depends on what you mean by "accurate" ?
Accuracy of your MoCap data is based on a lot of other factors and the DCC has nothing to do with that
regal swallow
So, what's the job market like for Level Designers and/or environment artists? Or should we be looking at going Indie and making a complete game?
Am I realistic in thinking that I can work towards a career change, make the leap, earn enough to pay the bills, and be relatively secure in my work?
kindred mason
@regal swallow no
Only if you're good
Just because you work at something doesn't necessarily mean you'll be good at it
But, I know a few LD/EAs that do pretty nice freelancing
you can bug @molten tree later
Maybe he can talk to you for a bit
He's both
regal swallow
That would be good as i'm undecided between the two which to pursue.
queen light
I'd probably suggest Env primary, Level design secondary.
You're bound to have more work if you mainly do Environment Art.
regal swallow
Reasons? Due to knowing how to model, texture etc? And build environments?
Makes sense.
Just a longer road to trek I guess
Appreciate the comments
queen light
You'd likely spend more time doing Environment Art over Level Design, maybe there's a stat on how many jobs there are available for both, I'd look into it.
But you'd be more resourceful with Env art, as it cross trains into a lot of stuff.
regal swallow
Thx. That sounds good to me.
rose island
Hi, I'm looking for 3D character and enviornment modelers, animators and particle effects artists that want to make a game voluntarily.
queen light
@rose island Show stuff, then ask. :x
queen light
You might want to post in #looking-for-talent
rose island
Thanks for the tip
deep thicket
wtf is that font?
acoustic zealot
Russian English is what it is (jk jk)
wheat hinge
font reminds me of a barely readable version of klingon like if you wanted to display an alien language in an adventure game and still wanted people to understand it.
peak wadi
@deep thicket btw there is an app similar to Shazam but for fonts detecting ๐
for mobiles
WhatTheFont
hybrid phoenix
Most people don't feel the need to spend money on level design, in my experience
lilac walrus
more fool them
more so with game design
(yet the game design channel has aptly demonstrated that the majority of people are utterly clueless)
hybrid phoenix
Indie devs generally (pretend to/think that they) have their own vision on how they want their game to work, so that sacres them away from designers
Which I can sort of understand, personally. I wouldn't want other people to arbitrarily disturb my ideas, either
LD just seems like something most people forget about or go "Any idiot can do that"
And then they screw up
But they don't understand that they screw up
ยฏ_(ใ)_/ยฏ
(That's actually pretty close to the game-design situation, now that I think about it)
Sound design, too
People always underestimate sound design
steel creek
People always underestimate anything they dont understand but just need "done"
plucky hatch
Anyon here interested in the job post posted by @plucky hatch in #looking-for-talent
molten tree
@regal swallow it really depents if you go dor the big companys there is a big difference betwean ld and ea. In small companys you do both. While ea is mosly placing objects aplying shaders it can incluse anything from making models. Textures.shaders. lights. Most companys are looking for ea people with good model skills.
If you wanna know more hit me up
queen light
@molten tree I guess that's where I was going at as well. The thing is that with a small company/indie, you might be doing both, a larger company you'd specialize. But Env has more of a requirement and can cross-train into a lot of other units of design and projects within the company. My concern is that you would be limiting yourself if you only went into level design. So maybe focus Env Primary, then fiddle with Level Design as a compliment to your Env art.
granite brook
@plucky hatch Are you replacing the older JobPost with the new one ?
plucky hatch
@granite brook Yes I made a mistake
granite brook
Alright, I went ahead and removed the older one
toxic sable
The problem is that most LD's are strictly LD's and most artists are strictly artists. If you actually want GOOD level design, you need proper visual leading and storytelling, as well as a fundamental understanding of gameplay needs.
This is why most LD's fall really short IMO. You need to be an artist and a designer hybrid. It really is the most difficult job. You also need good ideas and the ability to communicate (and the desire to communicate) them both to the player, and to your own team so that they can assist you.
Most artists fail for the same reason. They do passes that are strictly "art" focused without any consideration to player leading, or game play. Sure it looks beautiful, but it doesn't serve the needs of the game.
With how competitive jobs are becoming in the games industry, coupled with the fact that gamers themselves are becoming more vocal, smarter, and more cautious, i think all artists/LD's need to learn at least a basic understanding about what the other job family does so they can begin to integrate their practices. 60/40 split sorta thing (artists leave that complex scripting to LD's, and LD's leave that polish art pass to artists haha) Otherwise, you run the risk of not being useful enough.
regal swallow
Thanks for the responses and replies. Really appreciate the advice, and it gives me a lot to think about, whilst I continue to learn UE4, Maya etc
Hopefully I can bring some projects back to the group, learn from advice, and maybe even help others.
haughty drum
hey guys
im in the retargeting manager
and i cant find any skeletal assets
why is that?
kindred mason
?
hazy hedge
@haughty drum do you know what channel you're in?
opal cloak
@haughty drum please post in the correct channel :) #animation
bitter flower
What's the market for job trading? For example, art for programming.
Everyone wants to work on their own game (me too) but if I could get a programmer to worj on one feature of my game in exchange for art for their game, I would settle for that arrangement.
One feature, one set of art.
Like the one night stand of game dev.
kindred mason
@bitter flower It is definitely viable.
I've done it a few times before.
It just depends a lot on if each person is getting their "money's worth"
Basically, if I am a great programmer but you're a crap artist
I am not getting my money's worth
But if all things are equal, than it can be a very lucrative arrangement.
bitter flower
Ill make some postings then
pearl dew
@bitter flower what kind of art can you do and what programming do you need? I have thought about this arangement myself and I'm a programmer
north meteor
Hey, I'm looking to see if people are interested in custom motion capture services.
I want to get a good idea of what kind of rates people might pay for.
If anybody's at all interested, @ me here or (preferably) DM me.
hybrid phoenix
@swift oracle Just clarifying in your job post, do you need an environment artist or a level designer?
Environment art is making the art, level design is using said art to create functional levels
They're pretty different things
regal swallow
๐ค ๐
swift oracle
@hybrid phoenix pretty much both
Someone capable of doing both is what we're looking for
Which is why it's in the same post
halcyon oriole
[looking for work] 3D game Artist
looking for 3D commissions of per asset/milestone basis
https://www.artstation.com/poidahoita
PM via Discord, or via Artstation for price negotiations.
fickle hatch
Wrong channel
halcyon oriole
how does one get their message into the looking for work channel?
drowsy tundra
Check out the pinned message in the channel, it lays out the procedure
spice dagger
The #more-resources channel also describes how to use the Bot for job postings
halcyon oriole
ah thank you I'll do this ๐
elder mist
@halcyon oriole I HIGHLY recommend you to remove the "low poly self" work from Artstation if you're looking for job
4 works that are "fine" for the portfolio are: Town Hall, BlackSmith House, Creature, UE4 environment
As for Blacksmith House - lighting would make this art 5-10 times better, textures and modelling are good (same for Town Hall)
Space Ship Control Room probably would look much better with new lighting (but atm I am not recommend to use it in portfolio)
elder mist
@tawny kayak LFT Unpaid messages still looking too similar to Royalty ones, is it possible to make them red?
or make Royalty - blue ?
tawny kayak
Yeah I'm going to change that. Just haven't made time to work on it. Soon! โค
kindred mason
wtf
never noticed those colors...
lol
Red For Unpaid should def be it
Yellow for Royalty
Green for the $$$
halcyon oriole
@elder mist ah yes, I'll consider it. I'll go get that blacksmith house re lit, in Marmoset.
elder mist
WTF?
opal cloak
Yeah I've been approached for that before
some are transparent some try to hide it
others just say "yeah, this is for my thesis"
alright...
No :p
elder mist
but...is it even ok for this Discord?
lilac walrus
it does seem kind of irrelevant
opal cloak
Oh didn't see desc
thought it was gamedev
@velvet wren only gamedev related job listings please.
steel creek
Awesome all my dreams have come true! A permanent unpaid job!
acoustic zealot
Can't believe that is even an option lol
steel creek
I think it's listed under the option "just send me straight to hell"
muted sparrow
Permanent AND unpaid? Damn sign me up
acoustic zealot
Well, if anyone want a permanent & unpaid job I can totally afford hiring you. Send me a PM and i'll put you to work! (jk jk)
rough crescent
Hey sorry noob question, how do I reply to Looking-for-Talent posts?
queen light
@rough crescent Each post should have a 'How to Apply'
rough crescent
Right. Thanks
west dome
qq if I repost my work entry to the unreal bot , it will update and not create a dupe right?
west dome
๐ thanks
stone cedar
Permament unpaid jobs,. hmmmm ๐ค
Also relevant - https://i.imgur.com/Dkb4TI7.jpg
kindred mason
@vernal wolf ROFL... how can anyone fake that beautiful mug of yours though?
vernal wolf
I hate everyone and everything.
kindred mason
Sorry to hear that ๐ญ
bitter flower
Best you can do is put a big smiling picture of yourself on your profile? Maybe? Might deter people a little
Question for you guys
Where is the proper place to advertise 'job trading: my 3D for your programming'
wild solstice
could be looking-for-talent or looking-for-work depending on how you word it..
finite hill
@bitter flower depending on what your looking for I could take that offer
west dome
_<
inner spire
@shut tree 
open spire
guys, is there any basic/ moderate programmer who can help me with some basic functions? I've been trying to learn bp and work for my project (http://traversethegame.weebly.com)
but its really hard to keep up with final thesis project, life, work and this project.
dense hearth
@open spire basic functions? like ?
open spire
@dense hearth well, the game is fps, but trying to add like a TPS body where the player can see the legs of the character when moving,
player has to interact with the environment, grab objects, throw them, get a gun, shoot, (no AI at the moment) have health, and armor and an other function we're thinking (O2, Oxygen) which decreases with time, but the player can refill it up again.
plucky hatch
Is there anyone who would help me create an FMV game? It should really only take about a week to make
I can pay up to 200 USD but can give you any number of 3d models and assets to use for payment as wlel
regal cloak
So I'm having an interview with a company while currently working for another company and I can't help but feel they will ask "Why are you leaving your current job for us?" What can I say that doesn't disrespect the other company but makes sense for leaving them in favor of the new? I also don't want them to lose trust in me for something simple to have them fear I'd leave them any time soon.
acoustic zealot
Hard to say. Why are you leaving your current job?
spice dagger
@regal cloak You cant be blamed for leaving another job for an better paying more rewarding job. Dont feel guilty for that if its the case.
regal cloak
I'm not feeling guilty, its just I want to be able to answer them without putting the other company down.
I can't say the other company was never going to give me a raise or was paying me dirt cheap lol
Or that it is tanking
Although those are reasons for why I'm leaving
spice dagger
....
Honesty is valued more in my experience.
Just say that you feel you have more opportunity with them
Talk up the positives of working with the new company instead of focusing on any negatives with the old company.
regal cloak
well said
I'll just talk about how great they are and how excited I was when I heard they were hiring
Simple as that
spice dagger
Exactly
regal cloak
On that note, what kind of questions can I expect for an Unreal Dev position?
They want 2-5 years, BP experince and so far all I got is knowing how to use UE4's "Physics".
spice dagger
Your CV and/or portfolio should give them enough to feel that you have the experience. Alot of interviews can basically boil down to try and find out if your an decent person that is going to mix well with their current staff.
But really it depends on alot of factors.
The job, the interviewer, the company etc etc
regal cloak
Right
Well they were excited with my CV and its contract to hire so less of a commitment if it turns out they don't like me
spice dagger
Just make sure you read the contract, especially the part about where and how you get paid for your work.
regal cloak
Its via a recruiting agency so standard stuff, going to get paid hourly (salary when hired)
spice dagger
Ah ok fair enough.
bold root
Hi, anyone knows other discord servers (similar to this one) in which they have other developers to recruit for a dev team?
west dome
hey @plucky hatch try posting in #looking-for-talent
quick orbit
Oops
rancid berry
There is some job oportunities in France and UK related with Unreal if some of you are interested.
I have listed few posts from AFJV there : https://blog.subak.ovh/jobs-afjv-1/
there is one post written in English, the others are in French.
Cheerup everyone~
fading yoke
@rancid berry ์ ํ๊ตญ์ธ ์ด๋ค -- ์ ๋ฝ์ ์ผํ๋์?
rancid berry
ํ๊ตญ์ธ ์๋์์ ์ง๊ธ ํ๊ตญ์ ์ผํ๊ณ ์์ด์
ํ๋์ค ์ฌ๋์ด์์ ใ ใ
fading yoke
๋ ๋๊ฐ์ง๋ง ํ๋์ค ๋์ ์, ๋ฏธ๊ตญ. ์์ธ์?
rancid berry
ใ ใ ๋ง์์
fading yoke
@rancid berry mais comment est-ce que vous avez pince ce boulot la, en corree? D'habitude, les etrangeres ici travaillent avec l'education.
Quand je suis arrive ici dans ce pays, j'enseignais les maths mais aujourd'hui j'en fais pas.
Ou etes-vous dans Seoul? Moi, c'est ์ฉ์ฐ
rancid berry
J'ai cherchรฉ sur http://www.jobkorea.co.kr/ avec en mot clรฉ Unity et Unreal :p
fading yoke
Waow, qq'un vous a offret un boulot de long comme ca?
rancid berry
J'ai fait une liste des boites et je les ai spam. J'ai eu quelques entretiens. Et.. J'ai eu un taff d'une boรฎte ^^ (avec E-7)
Je suis aux alentours de ๋ฐฉ๋ฐฐ
rancid berry
Entre ๋ด๋ฐฉ et ๋ฐฉ๋ฐฐ, prรจs de ๊ณ ์ terminal
Pas loin de Gangnam non plus en somme.
fading yoke
Ah ouais -- c'est pres de ์ฉ์ฐ, en fait. Moi et ma belle y allons tout les temps car ya autant des restaurants la, autour de ๊ณ ์ํฐ๋ฏธ๋
Et E-7? Il faut demontrer que vous avez plus de 2 ans d'experience dans l'industrie, non?
rancid berry
Exactement
Ce qui รฉtait "plus ou moins" mon cas
La cumulation de mes jobs successif au Luxembourg atteignaient les 2 ans pile
fading yoke
Donc... le boulot, c'etait pas votre premier fois en tant qu'en -- ah, ca marche
rancid berry
(sinon il faut un รฉquivalent master et il me semble qu'il n'y a plus besoin des 2 ans d'xp)
Vous faites quoi maintenant ?
fading yoke
Moi chu sans boulot car je suis idiot, en fait.
Chu arrive, ya 7 annees en tant qu'en prof des maths mais en 2012 yavait un chef trop
malveillant
rancid berry
aouch.... Oui la hiรฉrarchie est cheloue ici.. ><
fading yoke
Ouais
En fait j'ai commence avec cet Unreal car j'ai pense qu'il serait plus facile trouver de boulot en n'importe ou -- mais j'en ai pas cherche ici dans ce pays car j'ai pas les 2 ans d'experience
rancid berry
T'as deux ans d'expรฉrience dans d'autres domaine que tu peux prouver non ?
Et si tu enseignais les math, t'as รฉquivalent bac+5 ?
Oups je tutoies ><
fading yoke
Mais oui, mais j'ai pense que les 2 ans d'experience doit etre relevant a votre industrie
C'est linternet, personne n'en fout
rancid berry
ok cool~
Bref, mmh
Les math sont plus ou moins en accord avec le domaine.
Faut rรฉussir ร le prouver. Et si il y a des diplomes en plus, c'est parfait.
fading yoke
Ouais -- avec espoir
rancid berry
Perso j'ai des lacunes en math c'est assez lourd pour des domaines:
- Calcul matriciel
- Comprendre les fonctions pour le deep learning
- etc
ํ๋ด์ฉ~
fading yoke
ouais
Ouais mais la vie n'est pas devenu si facile pour moi malheureusement. Malgre tout, merci pour le link site-web pour chercher des boulot ici en Coree. J'essayerai envoir des applications si j'en vois a propos d'Unreal
C'est tres rare s'encontrer a qq'un qui sache cet langage ici en Asie. Demain j'ai encontre une espganole sur l'autobus pour la premiere fois. C'est comme regarder le Big Foot
rancid berry
J'imagine que sans taff ici, รงa doit pas รชtre super รฉvident effectivement.
Si tu as besoin de tips sur Unreal ou sur du code, n'hรฉsite pas ร demander.
Et aussi il y a tous les mois des RDV pour les indรฉs: https://blog.subak.ovh/seoul-indies/
Je ne parle pas encore trรจs bien. Mais ร force de discuter je retiens petit ร petit :p
fading yoke
Avec la coreene? Ouais, moi je pense qu'il s'agit pas de la difficulte, mais de la difference. N'ya aucune similarite et donc faut beaucoup d'experience pour s'habitouer
Merci aussi pour me fait savoir ces RDV pour les indies. Je n'ai su pas.
acoustic zealot
I know there is no rule about what languages that should be preferably spoken or so but imho if you decide to speak anything other English you could very well take it into DMs to prevent /Spam/ (Even though it ain't spam, for someone not knowing a word you say it might as well be).
Note English ain't my first language but I stick to it in public channels out of respect to the community. :- )
cosmic tangle
c'est devenu un chan spรฉcial baguette ? ๐
lilac walrus
et la sange et dans la arbre.
steel creek
Parlez-vous respect?
plucky hatch
omelette du fromage?
vague yarrow
So I do 3D art (a little character design, mainly props 'n' stuff). What's a good way to find some cheap, relatively quick work I can do to earn a little money? $5-$20 projects
Pretty sure there are websites for stuff like that but I don't know of any
regal cloak
So I had an interview and I answered most of the questions well enough and eventually I was shown around the office and even shown the project and its source code, what I'd be expected to do, how it all works and even introduced to some people. I haven't offically been told I've gotten the job but is that normal?
mental viper
maybe they want input from other teammembers
kindred mason
@regal cloak Hmmm, I won't lie, that's pretty strange. Usually you should know right away if you're hired. Or, they will tell you there's a second interview/step in the process.
Second step could be a test of some sort if you've passed the initial interview.
regal cloak
It ended with him saying we'll keep in touch
regal cloak
Only reason he stopped chatting with me was because his boss called
kindred mason
But your interview was scheduled?
regal cloak
I'm pretty sure it was
kindred mason
Now, back to him though
regal cloak
didn't seem like he wanted to stop chatting with me
kindred mason
How was his tone when he said "I'll be in touch" ?
regal cloak
He is on his own, trying to start a team, needs help bad. Had a tight deadline
kindred mason
Well, how do you think it went?
regal cloak
The intial interview fine, the show and tell of the project, ok as well but IDK why?
I wanted to offer him help and criticism but thought I'd save that for if I get hired.
kindred mason
Well, generally, you should have a good idea if it went very well, meh, or not so much by the time it's over.
Did they fly you out there?
Is this local?
regal cloak
Local
kindred mason
Hmm, don't be afraid to speak your mind
Giving them free tidbits shows good faith
And helps keep them hooked
regal cloak
Yea, basically what scares me is that he wants to use UE4 for an accurate simulation (as close to 100%) of machinary
kindred mason
So?
regal cloak
I told him it sounds like he'd have to rewrite the physics engine for UE4otherwise I'm not sure that expectation can be met
But otherwise UE4 might not be the right choice (I'm thinking right now).
kindred mason
Hmm
Can you say what type of sim?
I mean, there's plenty of examples of simulations being created in UE4
regal cloak
To give you the example he gave me, he wants to be able to drop a bottle of water from the stairs (real world) and be able to do the same in UE4 and watch them tumble and fall 1 to 1.
swift field
haha
regal cloak
I'm wondering if he was saying that to scare me or if he really has unrealstic expectations or he is a mad genius
I mean I hadn't done any research to see if something like that could be done but my intial thought when he said that was, your going to have to rewrite source. I told him that and he asked me if I had experince doing that. I told him I've inherited and customized UE4 classes but have yet to make such a big edit to the source and recompile it for such needs.
What do you guys think?
This is certainly not a traditional game dev UE4 position
mental viper
1 to 1 is pretty much impossible, even when you somehow solve the initial conditions to have them be the same
regal cloak
Right! ^ Which is why I can only assume its as close as one can get but it can never be 1 to 1
mental viper
if you have any liquid in the bottle... gl
plucky hatch
You would also have to model the weight shift in water which would be pretty hard
regal cloak
Now the intial goal would be for a prototype but his long term goal is ethier really exagerated (and I'll emphaize all this if he hires me for clarity) or he doesn't know any better?
changed when he hires me to if because yea IDK yet
But I'm concerned if he is like yea we are going to strive for that level of detail and I don't want to be a nay sayer on the team (or he may not even want a nay sayer) but if he does take a nay sayer and still pushes me to do it and we never hit that mark is that bad on my part?
mental viper
no, but it might be in his eyes (speculation)
i didnt meet with him so i cant say for sure
but seems to me like he doesnt know the limitations of computing
regal cloak
That or he overestimates UE4 (in the physics area)
mental viper
you can do some pretty good simulations but 1to1 is pretty much out of reach
regal cloak
Well thanks everyone for making me feel sane!
If he decides to go with me I'll bring these points up.
rancid berry
@acoustic zealot Yup I agree, I am sorry, I did not expected the conversation that could be that long.
plucky hatch
(This is not a job post but a question/asking for advice before I post such thing) -
I have requirement 8-9 characters for my game project.
Now I'm looking for either a Concept Artist or a 3D Artist. But not sure if I can afford them.
So asking you guys - How much should I expect they will charge me per character if I'm to get a Concept Artist OR 3D Artist (I only need one)
The characters are as simple as the below image, Even B/W sketches or Less detailed models works for me.
hybrid phoenix
Well, I can't really estimate it for you because I'm neither concept artist nor 3D artist
But for models it'll be pretty expensive, since it really wouldn't be that simple as a 3D mesh
Especially not if you want it rigged and textured like that
plucky hatch
for texturing i'm thinking materials or simple colors with matte(roughness)
this is just an exmaple from internet fo im not thinking for animation like that
the characters wont have hands
rancid berry
that's something you will have to see directly with the artist you will find.
It depends on how much time you will ask him or her to spend on it.
if it should be with lot of details, not much... with or without textures, animations as it was mentioned before.
Then the artist could have already a table with his or her prices per hour. Or directly for a task with estimation.
If he or she is experimented, it would be more expencive but with a clear price. Cause he or she will know about his or her limits.
Less experimented would be cheaper, but it will be hard to guess for this newcommer to know the value of the he/she produced
So communication is important (lol for everything in fact but well..)
Ask also for watching at the portfolio
plucky hatch
hey everyone ๐ would anyone be interested in helping me develop a small arcadey shooter game?
reminiscent of the old TimeSplitters games
something to have fun with and not take too seriously
urban stump
@solid lagoonphaRolf#2029 It'll vary depending on the skill and speed of the artist, but usually on contract work skilled 3d artists usually charge $35 per hour minimum. If you want to do per-character, that really goes down to the individual artist in question, the $35 per hour is just standard. The Animation Guild set that as the minimum wage for artists and unless the artist is misinformed, they'll usually follow that at least.
With more experience, depending on the artist, I know people that charge up to double that.
steel creek
Easily double that for quality work
50 plus an hour or typically 3k to 7k depending on quality and rigging... could be just the model. All this is very dependant upon your requirements.
fading yoke
Has anyone ever actually been contacted through the #looking-for-work channel? Sometimes I wonder if it's just a black hole.
lilac walrus
I'm pretty sure I have in the past, but your mileage may vary
flat gazelle
I found a client through the old jobs channel
flat gazelle
Yeah, I found one client I actually work with. I recieved a whole buch of offers from people who doesn't realize that art costs.
stone cedar
@flat gazelle tru dat
kindred mason
@stone cedar Stop charging $100/hour for that sexy art!
stone cedar
god I wish ๐
flat gazelle
Hehe, start making specialized art and you can charge 100 no problem ๐
stone cedar
only if you got an onging contract with a studio mate
flat gazelle
Not really. For longer contracts I tend to charge less. The ones who only want a few days work pay full price
lilac walrus
yup
instability costs money
so if it's a two days job, you're looking at a few hundred per day, but if it's several months, that number gets way smaller
flat gazelle
Exactly. I've knocked off a third of my hourly rate for long projects.
stone cedar
how often do you get to do a long term contract as an artist tho... It gets split into smaller incriments anyways
flat gazelle
I'm currently on a 3 month, full time project. Did a 2 month this summer.
Then I have small ongoing ones that I do on weekends and so on
lilac walrus
I've known people to get rolling contracts of 1 year at a time
lilac walrus
sure, I've seen it for art
and I've seen people stay in those contracts for years at a time
wild solstice
i was working under contract for ~3,5years .. every 3months I got an 'extension' contract
kindred mason
Depends on the contract
And what the client can afford and the duration
Among a few other variables
I give discounts to repeat clients also
Complexity is one of the main factors in my decision also
plucky hatch
You got any figures you can give me? Got a potential long-term job and I've never done hourly before
kindred mason
You rate your rate
plucky hatch
Trying to find a good baseline
hello people, would anyone be interested in helping me develop a small 3D platformer game?
reminiscent of classic collectathons such as Super Mario 64/Sunshine with a narrative similar to Broken age?
I'm currently looking for UE4 programmers, i'm trying to figure out first how to get all the player's moveset right. Other skills such as 3D artists are also welcome. However, just know that it's not paid until we get this funded, thus why we're working on releasing a showcasable demo. if you're interested and want to know more, please do DM me! here's something that'll give you an idea of what my project is about
kindred mason
what are you trying to do it for?
@majo@plucky hatch can you stop?
this isn't the channel
please delete
this is for discussion only
#looking-for-talent is what you want
plucky hatch
As in what the job is? Primarily simple Blueprint stuff and some optimization
kindred mason
I will ensure to intentionally move up that advert until it's gone from my screen now
plucky hatch
is it? but i read earlier that its a black hole that nobody pays attention to
plucky hatch
no, because wrong pic
plucky hatch
what is this channel then?
kindred mason
What the job is
And what you want to charge them
what's your current figure in your head
What's your education?
What's your experience level in UE4?
@plucky hatch l2read past messages please
wild solstice
education and experience looks nice on paper but when you pay a guy hourly you wanna know how he works.. what's his output
kindred mason
?
Experience usually means you have a portfolio
So, you'd have some samples of previous work
Education + Experience is what's getting me paid
plucky hatch
Guess I'll do some research on some hourly rates to see if I can get a good base rate ๐
kindred mason
@plucky hatch ?
Or you could just answer the questions so I can give you one?
Do you just not have enough experience or education?
Starting out?
I mean, not really hard to answer.
wild solstice
big factor is if it's a local or online job
you can't be a 3d artist and charge 100$/h in india
plucky hatch
Oh I thought you were telling me to ask those questions to myself haha
I don't have a figure in my head because I have no reference point atm
wild solstice
your min $/h should be at least what you would get paid if you were working localy on site
plucky hatch
Diploma in Software Development but was mainly just web development stuff
wild solstice
for example over here where i live a basic programmer is paid ~15-20โฌ / h
so i wouldn't go below that
plucky hatch
Experience in UE4 is 2 years I think at this point. Main experience is tech art
@kindred mason
20โฌ (about $30 here) seems like a good base
wild solstice
yeah but you should base it on your standards
wild solstice
we have a government website where there's these kinds of suggested minimum wages listed for different fields